July 25, 2024 • 48 mins
Dr. Sam and Dr. Fran introduce a new session: Real or Reel? Join as they uncover the truth behind the infamous “Serial Killer” gene.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
So, Dale, I don't know how much you
know about therapy, but it usually starts by
you telling me a little something by yourself.
I thought there'd be couches and clean shed.
Look at the sun.
It's not your fault.
You wanna to talk about some of feelings.
I love you. Obviously,
you don't know me. Ta supposed to work.
Use it. That's it. We talk.
(00:26):
Hi. I'm Doctor Sam, and I'm Doctor Fran.
Welcome to Freudian Script. The podcast where we
put your favorite Tv shows and movies on
the hypothetical couch and take a deeper dive
in ecology is portrayed. We analyze the way
therapy looks in entertainment,
discuss the way psychological diagnoses are for portrayed
and break down other psychological themes seen on
our screens. As a reminder, Freudian Scripps is
(00:48):
for informational and entertainment purposes only. Please consult
your mental professional with any questions and cc
care if needed. The content clips in today's
episode will contain exclusive language and mature and
adult themes.
Only
Welcome
to a very exciting mini session where we
will be introducing a new type of session.
Real or real? What is real? How do
(01:10):
you define real? For this type of session,
we will discuss a popular belief or psychological
portrayal and determine if it is real science
or made for the movie reel.
And we're excited for today's inaugural real science
or movie real session we'll will be discussing
a really commonly portray, like, Hopes maybe scientific,
maybe not concept, the merger or serial killer
(01:33):
gene. So this is definitely something we've seen
a lot in different movie portrayal or even,
like, newspaper articles, like headlines.
So we definitely wanted to kinda bring that
to the couch and break down is the
seen real or is it just made for
the movie?
And so the murder or serial killer gene
is commonly played,
I you know as I mentioned in movies
or Tv shows, and it's hut typically brought
(01:54):
up in the context of characters who have
either committed violent crimes or wondering if they
may have the propensity to commit violent crimes.
And so the ideas if there may be
a the gene or set of genes that
someone can inherit that makes them more likely
to commit violent crimes as off or even
become a serial killer.
The
So doctor Fran and I are going to
(02:16):
be presenting some clips, and then breaking down
at the end, if these are things that
are based in real sign. Are made for
the movie reel. I am going to provide
1 example
from a show that discusses the murder jean,
and we have covered the show previously in
a sense session,
but I am bringing Riverdale back to the
couch.
(02:36):
A reoccurring concept in Riverdale centers around
Betty Cooper as she grapple with whether she
has violent tendencies
and this is really in the context of
finding out that her father is a serial
killer. So for people who watch Riverdale, every
season, there's like a big bad villain that
they're trying to figure out. And for 1
of the seasons, it's the serial killer that...
(02:58):
Betty later discovers is her father. He gets
captured, and then she's constantly wondering, like, if
she also
kinda made for a violent
future.
Given some of her past and also some
of her interest. So specifically, in season 3,
episode 21,
Betty learns that she has the quote unquote,
serial killer gene. So let's listen to how
(03:21):
that plays out. Yeah.
Your mother and sister have something that to
tell you.
Glad elves.
Like
Honey, when you were 8, you spent some
time in the hospital after you fell off
your bike and got a concussion.
(03:41):
While you were there, the doctors ran a
bunch of tests, and
they discovered.
What?
What, mom?
They discovered that you have the M oa.
And the Cd
13 genes,
(04:01):
which are commonly called. The serial killer genes.
They tested the rest of us for and
then he us have. Not even dad.
It's just you, betty. You have a
predisposition violence.
But now that you know you have it
and you're here, Edgar can help you heal.
(04:27):
If if this is true,
how can you help me
Let's start by talking.
Just because you were blonde with formality doesn't
mean it defines you.
Destiny.
(04:49):
It's a false notion.
You are destined
to make a choice.
Give to your pro cl
or fight it.
Tell me your fears.
Begin.
(05:14):
I've always falling there's another person inside of
me.
A person capable of doing dark, terrible things
And I don't know how to get rid
of her.
First step is
confrontation.
(05:45):
Hi, Betty.
Hello.
Who are you?
Take a closer look.
We know each other very
very well.
Here
me
(06:06):
in the shadows.
That you hide from our family and friends.
I'm all the dark deeds you did in
our youth.
And now.
Like what we did to world old cat,
caramel.
Caramel ran away. I didn't do anything to.
(06:28):
Buddy.
We both know that we drown caramel.
We're about the time we pushed Poly downstairs.
Or do you not remember that either?
No. That's...
That's not true.
Oh, but it is.
Here's what else is true.
(06:48):
I am not a part of you.
You are a part of me.
I am the real, Elizabeth Cooper.
You
are the illusion.
(07:18):
The first few sessions it's normal to feel.
Disoriented?
What else did you feel?
This,
stabbing pain in my forehead.
Your body's located into trauma.
(07:39):
Step 1.
Healing is painful
but together,
we can discharge that pain forever.
(08:01):
This is just the beginning,
A lot to a package there.
Oh, I don't even know where to start.
Yeah. I did forget to mention that Edgar,
the 1 that is, quote unquote, trying to
treat her is like a cult leader for
some context.
He does not sound like a therapist I
want. He... Like, he's saying that some of
(08:22):
the right things,
but in this very creepy
voice.
Also, for listeners Edgar, the cult leader slash
inappropriate therapist is played by Chad Michael Murray.
Yeah. Which that's fun to see him, but
it's also he's a creepy.
Yes.
(08:42):
But so we hear, you know, from her
family, and they... It they trying to approach
it in this sympathetic way. Like, oh, betty,
there's something horrible. We have to tell you.
And now that we've told you that you
have these quote unquote serial clear dreams. We
wanna try to help you.
And this is a common theme where, like,
Betty,
kinda feels like she doesn't fit in or
(09:02):
she feels like there's a darkness inside of
her and we hear her talking to her
internal self that's reminding her of all these
supposed violent acts that she has done, like,
in her life that she maybe has, like,
suppressed and doesn't remember.
Yeah. Well, and I think with that, like,
before we get into, like, whether the jeans
they're talking about our real.
I feel like it's it's a common to
(09:22):
see this where
then you find out about this genetic
in for, in this case, you know, violent
tendencies. And then you start to kinda rethink
everything or attribute everything to this Yeah. New
thing that you've learned. Right? Then And whether
it's actually the reason why she's having these...
Has this dark side or has these, like,
(09:44):
serial killer tendencies, like, we'll kinda get into
whether that
real or not real.
But I think that's, like, kind of what
we're seeing here is now. She's like, okay.
Now I know this about myself. Now I
know I have this potential pro fertility or,
like, propensity for violence.
And so now I'm, like,
rethinking everything and coping with what that means
to, like, be pro potentially, like, pre dustin
(10:06):
to be a serial killer potentially.
Exactly. That's 1 of the only things I
kind of agreed with Edgar, Chad Michael Marie,
when he says, like, just because you have
this new information, doesn't mean that this necessarily
has to define you. And we'll definitely get
into that more when we talk about...
What science if any,
this kind of portrayal of the serial killer
(10:27):
or murder gene is based on.
But that was 1 thing where I did
agree with it him. Right? Like We do
know in a lot of things. It's like,
you know, the nature versus nurture, like jeans
and environment like there are many things that
go into it versus just 1 thing. So
that was 1 thing I was kinda like,
okay. I agree. But then he started talking
about, like,
locating the physical trauma and healing her. Through
the pain and h her so that she's
(10:48):
talking to the dark betty, and I kinda
wasn't board with all of those things.
Or
Well, and then, I mean, without knowing much
of the context, Like, what's his aim here
if he's a call leader. I don't know
how... Well doesn't he even have a degree
or a l sense to be doing anything?
You know, what are his credentials?
And what are his motive? Definitely none. What
(11:09):
are his motive? No sc and very good
to question the motives, the motives are definitely
sketchy. And honestly, unfortunately, for Betty like kind
of her family. Trolls their motivation. So she
does go on to learn that they're actually
not being very accurate with her. Many family
members of hers have this gene,
you know, including, like, her serial killer father,
including her mother, including, like, you know, she
(11:31):
kinda starts to une earth a lot of
family secrets. And then, actually,
She ends up kind of going an alternative
route. She spoiler alert does not become a
serial killer, but does start working for Fbi
to kind of use her
skills and interest in a more productive manner.
And so there's 1 other really quick clip
I wanna play where Betty is kind of
using her
(11:52):
serial killer gene
superpower, I guess we could go it. Start
right the deep end of the swimming pool
with serial killers.
Her brother is so hot.
Now I put together a little exercise to
kick off.
This is a crime scene. Where 6 victims
were found buried along a River Riverbank in
the Pacific Northwest.
(12:13):
Then before I start filling in all the
details,
And it guesses on which 1 of these
men is the murderer?
It's the third man.
That's correct, buddy. How did you know that?
I don't know. Just
intuition.
Okay then.
(12:34):
Let's try another 1.
Which one's the serial killer.
The serial.
It's the 1 in the middle.
Correct again.
Your intuition is like a 6 sense.
(12:55):
Let's go again.
None of them did it.
Excellent work, betty.
Not many people have that kind of raw
instinct. You're like beautiful life, but
for serial killers.
(13:15):
Oh, can any of you guess what the
murderers all haven't come? Nothing
is not kind of the point.
Actually, they all have 1 thing in common.
A specific set of genes.
They discovered that you have the M oa.
And a cd
chains.
Also known as serial color change.
(13:40):
More ominous.
This is, I think it goes even more
off the rails here.
You mean, you've never met a person with
a certain, like, you know, maybe genetic
mutation, genetic different. Is certain genes that can
just identify other people with those same genes
by looking at. By looking at still photos
(14:01):
of them on a projector and no.
I don't think we need to do the
real
science or movie real to discern whether that
is accurate or not.
Yeah. And then the whole, you know, kind
of like, the revelation there is, like, the
1 thing that all of these killers did
have in common.
Are the same jeans that Betty, you know,
(14:23):
had reached, like, been told when she was
younger. She also has. And so we're led
to believe that's why she has this intuition
or you know, 6 senses he describes it.
1 of the interesting things is that person
who is talking is her...
I forget exactly if it's like step or
half. No. He has to be a her
half brother, who she later finds out also
has the jeans and later finds out has,
(14:44):
like, murdered. People. So, you know, kind of
running in the family
with this, like, same storyline.
I also forgot to mention 1 of the
things that I found
also not very realistic from the original clip
is working in a in children's hospitals.
I don't know if, like, a concussion or
bike accident. Is usually the kind of a
(15:04):
problem that people come in for and then
end up with, like, full genetic testing and
all of these different.
No. Absolutely. Genetic testing is actually not that
easy to get. Like, it's not something very,
like, you go to your doctor regularly and
you get labs done, and then take your
blood to get, like, your vitamin levels and
things like that, but they're not getting, like,
your genetic testing done.
(15:25):
Like, if you're doing that, it's usually, like,
you're paying to get it done for, like,
23 in me or ancestry or what are
those companies or they're running genetic testing to
look for certain conditions that may be linked
to
issues that you're having, but it's not like
a routine routine thing being done, I don't
think at least, that I'm aware of to
just be running genetic testing on people.
(15:45):
I would agree with that. I think most
likely it's if people are coming in, maybe
you have, like, a cluster of symptoms or
they're noticing certain things, and it really is
an explained by other
conditions or diseases, likely then genetic testing will
be recommended to look and see if there
might be, like different syndromes or genetic mutations
related to the symptoms to help aid for...
With treatment. Right? And also, like, kind of,
(16:07):
some
potential information about the prognosis or 3 of
the symptoms the person is experiencing. But that's
usually after there's some inclination or some reason
to then get referred for genetic testing.
Again, 8 year old on a bike accident,
couldn't maybe with a concussion. I don't see
the doctors been in the emergency room being
like, let's a full genetic panda on this
(16:28):
child. Ex have a serial killer gene. Yeah.
A lot of resources for, yeah, a very
random referral.
Yes.
But so as we heard there, you know,
kind of betty
sip... You know, in this fictional Riverdale world,
She learns that she does have these jeans.
Her family members have these genes. She does
(16:50):
have family members who have gone on to
be serial killers.
And so now
that we've kinda heard this fictional tail around
bev,
what does this really mean or look like
in 10 a real life? Like, what is
this so called murder or serial killer gene?
Yeah. And so, you know, something we often
look at is, like, when they
(17:11):
usually, the producers were, like those screen screen
plate writers will kind of do their homework.
Right? So, like, the Mao gene is a
real gene that does exist and there is
some research support for
vague versions of what they're describing. It is
not colloquially called the murder gene or the
serial gene, like, in the scientific world, it
does more commonly in the scientific world go
(17:33):
by the name, like, the warrior gene. Though,
I would say, like,
real people studying this aren't gonna call it
by that They're gonna call it by its
actual name, which is the, like, mono ox
AMA0A,
gene.
G.
And that's important because kinda like what we're
seeing has now been picked up in the
(17:53):
popular media and Tv show movies. They then
kinda make it even more,
more casual, murder, serial killer. So even naming
it something like the warrior gene or calling
at that rather. Could be kind of stigma
digitizing or kinda lead to, like, bias judgments
or thoughts related to it.
And so what is this M mao
gene?
(18:14):
So this is, you know,
genetics and some of the topics that we're
gonna talk about, like, in the brain and
neurotransmitters and all of that, in and themselves,
you know, people go on to study for
years and years and we take us a
long time. So we're gonna kinda do a
brief overview,
and we'll definitely provide some resources for further
reading and information. But kind of the quick
(18:35):
end as easy as we can maybe think
to describe it. The M a oa gene
does code or, you know, creates
for a certain enzyme, which is the mono
immune ox a. And this enzyme plays an
important role in breaking down
neurotransmitters in the brain. And so neurotransmitters
(18:56):
kind of a fancy word for chemical messengers
in the brain that sends signals throughout the
body, and these are responsible and in and
can impact the way that we feel. So
for example, some neurotransmitters people may have heard
about are serotonin and dopamine.
And people colloquially also have a name for
these easy though it's not as, like, you
know, maybe stigma is, like, warrior gene or
(19:18):
murder gene, but they do call these the
quote unquote happy hormones.
And this is because those types of nerve
neurotransmitters play a role in regulating our moods
and emotions.
Yeah. And that was a very... A very
nice overview, Doctor Sam.
And so so what we understand about the
Mao gene is that... And that enzyme produces
is that the
(19:38):
It helps break down the neurotransmitters at doctor
Sandwich is mentioning serotonin,
and other ones such as epinephrine and norepinephrine
which control the body's response stress. So it
has an interaction with all of these neurotransmitters,
which then can impact mood and suffer regulation
in response to stress, etcetera, etcetera. And 1
of the things that's important to note is
(19:59):
if this M mao gene is not creating
that enzyme that breaks down these neurotransmitters, you
might think, oh, that's actually a good thing.
More of these happy hormones, but actually, just
like with most things, moderation is key. So
if we have an excess of these hormones,
that's where it can lead to some differences
or potential
deficits or difficulties for some people. Mh.
(20:21):
Yeah. No I think that's a really good
point of that idea of like, oh, I
want more happy hormone, but too much of
anything is not necessarily a good thing.
And so what they have shown and there...
There's been research support for this is that
some people with
improper M mao gene function, like, showing lower
expression, for example of M mao
can lead to higher levels of the compounds,
(20:43):
which has been linked to some outcomes such
as aggressive behavior. That's not to say that
everyone with low expression of M mao
automatically is going to exhibit aggressive behavior, but
when they compare,
people with the improper functioning of the gene
to those, with proper functioning of the gene,
they do see differences between those groups.
(21:05):
Mh And it's always an important to note
that there are mixed findings in this research,
like, with much
research that we discuss.
And
oftentimes, some of this research has been found
to be correlation. So that means like we're
seeing some connections, we're seeing associations between this
gene and potential aggressive behaviors,
and there are people that have this gene,
(21:28):
many people actually who surprise surprise do not
go on to become serial killers or murderers.
So important to note that while some people
who may
have a propensity or demonstrate violent behavior, have
this gene, not everyone that has this gene
demonstrates violent behavior, and that's an important distinction.
Right. And not everyone who's engaging in violent
(21:48):
behavior has this gene. Right? So it's not,
like, an automatic 1 for 1 either way.
And so I I think another extension of
this is that, like, with... Basically with anything
in biology genetics, psychology, like, it's never that
simple. Right? Like, it'd be great if we
pinpoint, and I think that's why we get
so interested in this and wanna call it
the murder here. It wouldn't be great if
we could just identify and be like, this
(22:09):
person's is gonna become a serial killer
address that now, and then we can prevent
a lot bunch of loss of life. But
that's not that simple unfortunately. And so where
the M mao gene has also gotten a
lot of attention is really through
people may have heard, like, the gene by
environment
interaction or kind of this idea of, like,
nature versus nurture, and some of that research
originally was with the My gene specifically and
(22:32):
what early researchers were able to find what
they've replicated this in many studies now is
that it was actually a combination of men
in particular with this m mao l
variation,
plus
having child treatment histories,
those that interaction together made people a lot
more prone to exhibiting anti social behavior or
(22:52):
violent behavior later in life, not just violent
or aggressive behavior, but a host of other
kind of things associated with anti social behaviors,
which we've done deeper dives on before, but
generally, it's, you know, kind of
not really
responding to authority or, you know, kind of
rule breaking or, you know, conduct issues. So
(23:13):
kind of a host of different behaviors not
just violence aggression.
Definitely. And we can also link to previous
sessions of ours where we do a deeper
dive.
I will also add that that's not too
surprising when we think about some of these
neurotransmitters that are not, you know, being properly
regulated,
are related to the way we regulate our
(23:35):
emotions and also the way we manage our
stress reaction. Right? Or the body's response to
stress. So when you're thinking of the potential
of having this gene and exposure to trauma
and abuse and things like that, seeing that
combination,
based on what we know about what this
gene does, makes sense. Right? Like, that it
could be the combination of factors.
And again, not a 1 for 1, but
(23:56):
this some is something that we see in
the research.
Also interesting to note that it is most
commonly found in men
because without going, like, too much into, like,
the genetics and biological factors, it is, I
believe
linked on the x chromosome. And so while
it can be found in females, they do
see it more in men related to the
(24:16):
XYX
chromosome expression. Mh. Yeah. I think that's a
good point. And a lot of the research
has been done with men,
particularly at this. Or they they they've have
stronger effects that they find with this gene
for men in aggressive behavior and the findings
are usually not as strong for women or
they look a little bit different.
And I think again, thinking about, like,
is it the gene itself or is there
(24:37):
something that the gene might be linked to
or child malt treatment history might be linked
to if that's actually then driving the aggressive
behavior of the violently behavior later. Mh So
some things that, like, M me, gen type
expression have been associated with are maybe, like,
lower executive fun prostate sing or functioning, Mh
or, like, working memory or attention control or
another 1 I've seen is, like imp.
(24:58):
So is it really that
this is leading to aggression or does it
maybe make some of these other underlying processes
that might drive aggressive behavior.
Someone has more imp, for example, and then
when they're faced with a stressful situation, they're
more likely to lash out with aggressive aggression.
Because of the imp,
that is may driven by the gene, but
it's not a 1 to 1 gene automatically
(25:20):
equals aggression.
Yeah. I think that's a great point and
something to consider because Again, it's like, are
these people with the gene maybe having more
difficulty within, more difficulty with regulating emotion, more
difficulty with, like, their stress response? And those
types of things might for certain people with
certain experiences
lead to potential violent behavior. Yeah.
(25:42):
So in short,
Gene does exist it is not quite a
emerging or serial killer gene. It has some
links to
anti social or violent behavior,
but not a causal
relationship by any means.
No. And I like doctor Fran how early
on you had mentioned, like in science and
(26:04):
psychology,
we're often looking for these things we called
biomarkers.
Which are kind of some kind of biological
sign or symptom that we can look at
in pinpoint and make a diagnosis and then,
you know, prescribe or give a treatment,
these things can be really helpful and at
least like in a lot of psychological
constructs and diagnoses, they're not as simple it's
like, oh, this person has this gene. They're
(26:25):
likely going to be violent, Let's go ahead
and treat it just like you mentioned. So
I think while a lot of the science
is valid and important and it does help
to el date and, you know, certain factors
and help us to learn things.
It doesn't kind of explain everything
right that they are saying it does, and
especially when movies and Tv shows pick it
up, because, oh, really interesting. They found a
gene that's linked to violent behavior and serial
(26:47):
killers a murder and now we're just gonna
run with it and say, this gene, if
you have it, you're likely to become a
serial killer and kind of, you know, make
it all
glamorous and fun and dramatic for Hollywood. Definitely.
And I I think that's a good transition
because we'll also talk about another direction this
has gone is also how, like, courts or
the legal system maybe has taken this concept
(27:09):
and run with it. So let's
transition and we'll talk about another show and
and and carry on the conversation from there.
So I wanna bring in a clip from
Apple Tv show defending Jacob.
So for those who haven't watched it, it's
(27:29):
1 season. I don't know if I think
they are maybe planning to do a second
season But the general premise is, a young
boy. He's, like, 15 years old, I believe.
Is accused of murdering his peer.
And the whole show is really about his
defense and, you know, did he do it?
Did he not do it? His parents are
even kind of grappling and struggling with the,
did he do it?
(27:50):
But they're also trying to defend him because
he's still their kid and they don't have
any clear evidence at what 1 way or
another. And so as part of his defense
strategy,
they actually have him undergo genetic and psychological
testing to determine whether he may have a
propensity for violence. The idea
is that if he does end up being
charged guilty of murder,
(28:10):
could they use the results of the test
depending on what they find to
you know, get a lighter sentence. And it's
similar to the clip you share doctor Sam,
part of this is related to he finds
out. They find out that his grandfather is
in jail for murder.
So then they're wondering is their genetic reason?
Right? Does the family have a genetic just
disposition? And so the father's actually a defense
(28:33):
attorney,
not a not a serial killer or not
murder kind of flipped to the other direction.
But the question is, like, you know, does
this kid have some kind of propensity for
violence that
make it him a lighter sentence because it
wasn't his fault or, you know, he didn't
have as much control quote quote. So in
the click that we're about to hear the
x expert on genetic inheritance and behavior. I
(28:54):
believe she's a medical doctor
who specializes in this area. She's providing the
testing results to the parents and to the
the child's lawyer. Okay. Child's child is not
present. Child is not present. I as you
know. I've been evaluating Jacob for the last
several weeks using a number of diagnostic tools,
of basic personality, inventory, or problematic traits, inventory
(29:15):
and all the results there in the reports.
I also tested his Iq, which is unusually
high and his E iq, his empathy quotient.
The report also contains the results from the
genetic testing.
That I conducted and it includes the MAA
mutation, what's coming known as the the warrior
chain or the murder gene.
(29:35):
And Andy father tested positive fourth mutation as
did Andy,
Jacob did not.
No. The thing is that's not,
Anyway wasn't really central to my evaluation since
it's actually inherited from the mother, and not
father.
Well, then what was the purpose of the
testing? Because there are similar genes that are
(29:57):
passed down from father to son.
For instance,
G 1, which is glut receptor subunit, it's
been linked to traits, like, imp and reckless.
All 3 generations of Barbara Males tested positive
for the Green variant,
including Jacob.
There's also a dopamine gene linked to a
(30:19):
limited capacity for empathy.
Again, all 3 generations of Barbara Males tested
positive.
And, finally, there's a form of a testosterone
receptor known to induce violent behavior and adolescents
shortly after Puberty. Jacob.
Jacob passed that for. Jacob does. Yes.
As do Andy and billy.
(30:42):
But if a young person is already capable
of moral reasoning.
These genes won't just cause the brain to
flip a switch, and I will point to
Andy as proof.
Still what Top V is saying is if
we wind up with the worst case scenario
or Jacob's found guilty, we would have a
genetic base mission argument addiction when it goes
to senses.
(31:03):
It's not gonna happen, but it's important to
know is possible
best in case.
Well,
now we know.
And is he
capable of moral reasoning.
There are things in here,
anti social tendencies. Oh, that's just psycho go
(31:25):
back I'm asking Doctor. V. It's not a
simple Yes No answer.
I think you should read the entire report,
and if you want, we can have a
conversation and had a best address Jacob's issues,
but obviously, right now, the concern isn't therapy
the trial. So there are issues. He's a
teenager. They all have issues.
And he's not wrong.
(31:46):
However, if there was 1 area of concern,
it would be his capacity for empathy once
again the report goes into full detail. How
do you mean? Lori? This isn't really the
time to have this come? I want to
know what she means?
Well, for example, I brought up Ben R
in 1 of sessions and
Jacob's response was that?
(32:08):
People die every day by the millions.
And when I tried to prod him to
express some some emotion around ben's murder,
Jacob's cubs answers felt
practiced.
It's because you don't know him. I mean,
he's not a touchy feely kid that's...
He has empathy. You think he did it.
(32:31):
I didn't see that.
You didn't have to, Laurie? I have absolutely
no way of knowing if Jacob did or
did not do it, and it's also not
my job. You think you might have done
it. Laurie, This isn't productive. You do, you
think it's possible. You stop anything in there
you could say about a million other teenagers.
Very true. Oh why wouldn't you answer me?
Lori, Don't you never see these things you
never saw them then. You were so desperate
(32:52):
to be normal first all to be normal
We are normal. Oh my God, Andy, do
you think this is normal? This situation of
course not, but Jacob, yes. I know he
is. And this.
This doesn't change anything. This means nothing. Just
answer me.
Please.
(33:17):
I wish I could.
What do you think Doctor Sam?
Yeah. I'm curious. You know, I thought it
was a a good clip actually. Like, it
makes me wanna watch the show. I'll say
that. I haven't seen it yet. I have
been interested.
You know, I think it's interesting.
First of all, like, having some experience with
assessment of various
(33:37):
like not in the forensic setting or genetic.
I thought it it was interesting, and it
could be because it's related to an active
trial. So I have less knowledge about that.
But the fact that she was just kinda,
like, here's all this complex, genetic,
intelligence, E q,
behavior,
personality testing, go read it, and let me
know Have any questions was kind of curious
to me because I feel like, you know,
especially in such a high emotion situation. I
(34:00):
feel like that would be the context to
describe the findings to the parents and explain
what they may or may not mean.
So that struck me. And then as you
could see, it did seem to
strike a cord with the mother in a
negative way so that she started inquiring from
the doctor, Like, well, tell me? Like, what
do you really think? Like, do you think
my child could have done this? I do
(34:21):
commend the doctor because I feel like I
would have handled it similarly. Like, she's right.
She can't say 1 way or the other.
She doesn't know and that's not her role.
Her role just to kind of describe the
findings that, you know, she has come to.
Yeah. No. I think that's pretty accurate and
I think it again, like, gives an example
of the, like, looking for things once you
know too much or once you know something.
Right? So... And you don't see this in
(34:41):
this clip, but you get the
sense of once the mother starts to...
Once he's, you know,
you know, been arrested for murder and it
she starts thinking about it. Then, of course,
she starts having all these memories of, like,
oh, well, maybe this little thing that I
noticed, like, was a bigger deal than I
thought it wasn't a time. I thought it
was just normal kid behavior, but was he
acting aggressively. Right? So this idea of, like,
(35:03):
is there actually this predisposition or, you know,
kind of looking for a a pattern of
behavior you're right. And that's tricky because when
we look at, like, personality disorders, for example,
which we've talked about like anti social personality
disorder and kids you have, like, things like
conduct disorder. That is what we are looking
at, like, patterns of behavior, patterns of certain
things that have occurred.
And we do know from people who
(35:24):
do look back when people have conduct... Like,
have
gotten in trouble or gotten caught to
engage in violent behavior. Sometimes people will say,
like, oh, this kinda makes sense because they
were this way as a child or this
did happen. So we can sometimes connect the
dots that way, But you're right. You can
also overdo it. If you're kind of looking
for meaning
when maybe those patterns weren't there. And I
(35:46):
don't know. But that was 1 of the
questions I had actually about this show and
this child is, like, okay. I get his
grandpa's arrested for murder. But did this kid,
like, have a history of engaging another violent
behavior or axe. You'll have to watch the
show to find out.
I would say not as definitely not as
explicitly as like Betty, the example that where
she's like, had murdered her cat or push
(36:09):
a kid down the stairs. It's, like, the
examples the mom or call because are are
much more subtle, and you can kinda hear
that in the clip and this is, like,
a big theme through show is the mom
is, like, really concerned and kind of was,
like, now I... Now all these things I'm
thinking of and they actually were a red
flag, but dad is, like, these are... He's
has a way of explaining away everything. So
there are enough things that
(36:30):
are ambivalent are I'm a little ambivalent. Of
they could go either way. It could just
be a kid. That was mad at a
school mate and, you know, lost is temper
or it could be a pattern of
lashing out aggressively.
So they're... Yeah. Yeah. And definitely Would encourage
you watch.
Okay. Interesting. I will say 1 of the
things I like they touched upon, which is
a a point that we made when we
(36:52):
were talking about Riverdale and Betty. If she
talks about how Jacob did not have the
M mao jean, but also did have the
presence of other genes that are associated with
imp,
empathy or, you know, lower empathy and things
like that that could be... Associated
with,
you know, it's it's kind of interesting because
(37:12):
it is retroactive. He's already been accused of
murder. So it's like, now you think about
it. And you're like, oh, these genes would
be Right. Associated with murder and violence. But
if he had had this kind of assessment
and hadn't yet been
accused of murder. It's a different situation. Right?
Like, still something to be aware of, but
not as maybe dire as it is in
this case. Right. Exactly. It's all like, kind
of the the retrospective piece of, like, trying
(37:34):
to come up with, something. And it's a
little hard to hear because what you can't
see if you're only listening to this clip
is that as the lawyer starts talking about
the results,
it's kinda fading out because the mom is
just honing in on words that she sees
jumping out at her on the page like,
via anti social tendency, violent capability
And but what the lawyer saying manipulative is.
Yeah. But what the lawyer saying in the
(37:55):
background is that this is good news. This
means that if he's unfortunately found guilty,
we have a basis to argue mitigation based
on genetics.
So
interestingly, I was like, there's no way that's
been done in real life, but for the
podcast. We did some research, and there have
been a handful, not many. There have been
a handful of cases
(38:15):
where this kind concept of, like, behavioral genetics
has been showing up in the courtroom and
in criminal cases to introduce evidence based on
neuroscience or genetic methods.
So this might be things like Fm mri
or, like, brain imaging studies, neuro psych testing,
and genetics to
determine level of responsibility and therefore, what an
(38:37):
appropriate punishment would be. And so this isn't
something that At least that I saw has
been used to, like, get someone off the
hook completely of saying, like, oh, they're not.
You know, they're not built by reason of
insanity or something.
Or guilty, But if someone has been found
guilty, There have been some instances where in
appeals court or in sentencing,
the sentences have been reduced.
(38:58):
Because of this mitigating factor of them finding,
specifically the M mao
variant that we talked about earlier.
Mh. And what I thought was interesting about
some of these cases is not all of
them are the Us. Yeah. Like, I think
there was 1 pretty prominent case that came
out in the news into thousand and 7
that occurred in Italy
(39:19):
when,
a man had been accused and admitted
to stabbing and killing a man,
he received a sentence of 9 years in
2 months and then was appealed later
related to having a variant of the Moa
gene which they argued predisposed him to violence.
And so
relate,
based on that appeal, they were able to
(39:41):
get a reduced sentence. And I think that
it mentioned that was the first time that
had happened in a European country or European
court.
I believe there were examples of it happening
in other countries as well. So So very
interesting to find, like you're saying, not like
a total
excuse per s, but something that is considered
when thinking about punishment or the penalty or
(40:01):
what the the court ruling will be. But
I feel like it kind of could pose
even more questions because this is maybe highlighting
that this is someone who is predisposed
to violence and might
be a re offender right of potential violent
crime. So I feel like that makes it
very complicated and complex. Definitely. Yeah. And and
we'll link some articles, but there's a really
interesting 1 that talks exactly about that kind
(40:22):
double edged sword of
while you can argue that you know, there's
maybe less responsibility or c
because it was this predisposition at the same
time at this... Then you're also admitting Oh,
but I have this predisposition so then it's
what's to stop you from doing it again.
So it's... You know, they... I think what
they've seen so far is that it's been
(40:42):
more used
to argue for mitigation of sentencing or mitigation
of of circumstance dance
and not as much for the, you know,
the is gonna be offended. But I think
that's why you see that even when it
has been used successfully to
reduce a sentence, it's not reducing it from
you know, life to 1 year, it's reducing...
Like I think the example you were talking
(41:03):
about in Italy was reduced, I think, from,
like, 9 years to 8 years. I think
it was, like, 1 year less. And then
another example, did did go from, like, life
in prison without parole to a term of
20 years. So that that 1 is a
pretty big
difference, but still not like, going from life
without parole to
nothing.
(41:24):
Like probation. Right. Yeah. Community service. Yeah.
Yeah.
There's also been some interesting researchers to get,
like, where where is this going? Like, where
how much of a slippery slope could this
be? And so there was a... I thought
it was a pretty interesting study where they
surveyed
judges in the United States and had them
read a hypothetical case that was loosely based
(41:45):
on a real case
where they introduced
some genetic evidence as part of it to
see how much that impacted the judges,
sentencing decisions. Mh. And so half of the
judges
got the genetic
information and half of them didn't.
And then what they found was that there
was actually a slight difference and that judges
who had the genetic information gave slightly
(42:08):
shorter sentences.
However, it was a difference of, like, less
than 1 year different.
So, kind of indicating that even if it
does influence, it's pre mild,
at least in this kind of like hypothetical
study.
Yeah. So maybe, like, statistically significant difference,
but
meaningfully
not so different for the people. Potentially, You
(42:29):
know, like, less than a year difference. Of
Yeah. And they've been... They've done more research
that I've seen, like, kinda trying to replicate
this in other countries and they've found no
difference, No impact on of the genetic knowing
about the genetic information on judges, and they've
also replicated it similarly
or had issues replicating it similarly with general
population in the Us so asking,
general population about their perceptions of someone's c
(42:52):
or responsibility or, like, what they think the
sentence should be that when they've given them
genetic material or not, they actually didn't find
any differences. So even if this does impact
decision making, at least from little research that's
been done, it doesn't seem to have a
super strong case
for it having, like, major
impacts at least on people's decisions around c
(43:14):
your since sentencing.
And even more interesting that if it continues
to be more prevalent and popular media and
continues to be called things like the murderer
and gene, People in general will be more
aware of it, which might also change and
skew perceptions, so something that'd be interesting to
kinda, like, keep an eye on as well.
Yeah. That's true.
(43:35):
So we've talked about the m a
gene, the so called murder, so called serial
killer, so called warrior gene.
In the case of Riverdale and Betty and
defending Jacob,
and then interestingly we're able to kinda dive
in a bit about what this gene actually
is. What's the research behind it. What are
some real life examples of how
(43:56):
this gene has been
used or seen in actual court,
cases and in the law. So a lot
of interesting stuff here.
And now doctor Fran, it's time. To answer
the question we posed at the beginning of
today's mini session, is this real science
or is the murder jean made for the
(44:17):
movie real? What is real? How do you
define real? Or you wanna stop the employee
and start getting real? Is that the intro
of the rear world? Have you ever questioned
an true your reality.
I'm not a puppet. I'm a real boy.
We accept the reality of the world with
which represented. You are not real. Through not
real.
I'm pretty sure none of that's real.
(44:38):
You're not real man.
So I think I'm the short answer is
it's the... Like, if we're talking about murder
gene, serial killer gene
is made for the movie real.
Not real science. So that's my short answer.
My longer answer is that there are aspects
of this, and I think the more we
(44:58):
talked about it tomorrow. I was like, there's
aspects of this that are real ish
real science ish. Right, Moving in that direction.
So I think I think the defending Jacob
clip is a better
representation and is a little bit more accurate
of how if you were to talk about
this in this context,
how an actual doctor with credentials and with
a degree,
(45:18):
would talk about it and think about it
and how that might be used in a
criminal case potentially. So I think that was
a decent representation. But thinking about this, like,
serial killer murder gene as a, like you
have it, and it means you're gonna be
a serial killer,
definitely not real science.
Should
What do you think?
(45:39):
I agree. I think no surprise from our
discussion, but I agree, especially in the Riverdale
clip.
I think much more made for the movie,
real,
very hyper poll. It was very much like
ominous. Like, she has this murder gene. Now
she's being like, h digitized by cult leader.
And so, you know, I felt like that
was very sensational.
(45:59):
And then they show her having kinda like,
the special talent for identifying other serial killers
and being able to capture serial killers in
Fbi because she herself has this, like, serial
killer gene,
So, you know, I think that was very
much Made for the movie rail. I do
agree that the defending jacob cup clip,
you know, from that short clip and the
context that we discussed does seem more leaning
(46:23):
towards real science because I could see an
actual assessment. You know, they looked at multiple...
Facets. They looked at personality They looked at
behavior. They looked at genetics. They looked at
cognitive functioning. Right? They kind of took a
bigger picture facets
to better understand just this child In this
adolescent rather. So I feel like that's a
more accurate approach I also like the way
(46:43):
she did describe the jeans, but also, like
various jeans and clusters of genes and what
they may or may not mean, and also
that they're not necessarily, like,
a hundred percent, like, cause... There's not c.
You haven't seen that means this happens. It's
more about, like, some potential
trends or difficulties or deficits. So I thought
that was a bit more accurate. I also
honestly thought that the parents reaction Was pretty,
(47:06):
accurate. How a parent might react. Both parents,
honestly, like, people have different approaches
to help parents might react in that kind
of setting. So I think that 1 was
real ish. And I think it's interesting just
like in a lot of these cases for
us to talk about
the actual science, the literature, the research, some
of the things that we know, some of
the questions we still have and then to
(47:27):
reflect how that is later mirrored and shown
in Tv shows and movies. So just always
interesting to stop and think about it. But
murder gene serial killer gene definitely made for
the movie reel. Yeah. For sure. Well, and
I think as as you bring up, you
know, as this is our first. Real or
real
session, like, we'd love your other ideas on,
like, what are these kind of questions you
have of, like, oh, I see this pro
(47:47):
portrayed in movies. I see this pro portrayed
in Tv shows. Like, is this real
science? Or is it made for the movie
real? Like, is this totally made up? Or
is this, like, actually something that is scientifically
back? So if you have ideas send them
all away.
And any questions, ideas, clips, things that you
feel like would be?
Of interest or you're curious about to cover
(48:09):
in any future sessions, Please send those our
way as well. And always please check out
our social media, we're at Floyd Skip pod
on all the things including
Tiktok.
So we're gonna try to make some more
tiktok to check that out, and please
subscribe rate and with you.
Time's up.
See an session.
(48:34):
Thank you We'd like to thank Our producer
Brandon, Creative Director Eric
at web.
Tomato
Red ram, red ram. No.
So, Dale, I don't know how much you
know about therapy, but it usually starts by
you telling me a little something by yourself.
I thought there'd be couches and clean shed.
Look at the sun.
It's not your fault.
You wanna to talk about some of feelings.
I love you. Obviously,
you don't know me. Ta supposed to work.
Use it. That's it. We talk.
(00:26):
Hi. I'm Doctor Sam, and I'm Doctor Fran.
Welcome to Freudian Script. The podcast where we
put your favorite Tv shows and movies on
the hypothetical couch and take a deeper dive
in ecology is portrayed. We analyze the way
therapy looks in entertainment,
discuss the way psychological diagnoses are for portrayed
and break down other psychological themes seen on
our screens. As a reminder, Freudian Scripps is
(00:48):
for informational and entertainment purposes only. Please consult
your mental professional with any questions and cc
care if needed. The content clips in today's
episode will contain exclusive language and mature and
adult themes.
Only
Welcome
to a very exciting mini session where we
will be introducing a new type of session.
Real or real? What is real? How do
(01:10):
you define real? For this type of session,
we will discuss a popular belief or psychological
portrayal and determine if it is real science
or made for the movie reel.
And we're excited for today's inaugural real science
or movie real session we'll will be discussing
a really commonly portray, like, Hopes maybe scientific,
maybe not concept, the merger or serial killer
(01:33):
gene. So this is definitely something we've seen
a lot in different movie portrayal or even,
like, newspaper articles, like headlines.
So we definitely wanted to kinda bring that
to the couch and break down is the
seen real or is it just made for
the movie?
And so the murder or serial killer gene
is commonly played,
I you know as I mentioned in movies
or Tv shows, and it's hut typically brought
(01:54):
up in the context of characters who have
either committed violent crimes or wondering if they
may have the propensity to commit violent crimes.
And so the ideas if there may be
a the gene or set of genes that
someone can inherit that makes them more likely
to commit violent crimes as off or even
become a serial killer.
The
So doctor Fran and I are going to
(02:16):
be presenting some clips, and then breaking down
at the end, if these are things that
are based in real sign. Are made for
the movie reel. I am going to provide
1 example
from a show that discusses the murder jean,
and we have covered the show previously in
a sense session,
but I am bringing Riverdale back to the
couch.
(02:36):
A reoccurring concept in Riverdale centers around
Betty Cooper as she grapple with whether she
has violent tendencies
and this is really in the context of
finding out that her father is a serial
killer. So for people who watch Riverdale, every
season, there's like a big bad villain that
they're trying to figure out. And for 1
of the seasons, it's the serial killer that...
(02:58):
Betty later discovers is her father. He gets
captured, and then she's constantly wondering, like, if
she also
kinda made for a violent
future.
Given some of her past and also some
of her interest. So specifically, in season 3,
episode 21,
Betty learns that she has the quote unquote,
serial killer gene. So let's listen to how
(03:21):
that plays out. Yeah.
Your mother and sister have something that to
tell you.
Glad elves.
Like
Honey, when you were 8, you spent some
time in the hospital after you fell off
your bike and got a concussion.
(03:41):
While you were there, the doctors ran a
bunch of tests, and
they discovered.
What?
What, mom?
They discovered that you have the M oa.
And the Cd
13 genes,
(04:01):
which are commonly called. The serial killer genes.
They tested the rest of us for and
then he us have. Not even dad.
It's just you, betty. You have a
predisposition violence.
But now that you know you have it
and you're here, Edgar can help you heal.
(04:27):
If if this is true,
how can you help me
Let's start by talking.
Just because you were blonde with formality doesn't
mean it defines you.
Destiny.
(04:49):
It's a false notion.
You are destined
to make a choice.
Give to your pro cl
or fight it.
Tell me your fears.
Begin.
(05:14):
I've always falling there's another person inside of
me.
A person capable of doing dark, terrible things
And I don't know how to get rid
of her.
First step is
confrontation.
(05:45):
Hi, Betty.
Hello.
Who are you?
Take a closer look.
We know each other very
very well.
Here
me
(06:06):
in the shadows.
That you hide from our family and friends.
I'm all the dark deeds you did in
our youth.
And now.
Like what we did to world old cat,
caramel.
Caramel ran away. I didn't do anything to.
(06:28):
Buddy.
We both know that we drown caramel.
We're about the time we pushed Poly downstairs.
Or do you not remember that either?
No. That's...
That's not true.
Oh, but it is.
Here's what else is true.
(06:48):
I am not a part of you.
You are a part of me.
I am the real, Elizabeth Cooper.
You
are the illusion.
(07:18):
The first few sessions it's normal to feel.
Disoriented?
What else did you feel?
This,
stabbing pain in my forehead.
Your body's located into trauma.
(07:39):
Step 1.
Healing is painful
but together,
we can discharge that pain forever.
(08:01):
This is just the beginning,
A lot to a package there.
Oh, I don't even know where to start.
Yeah. I did forget to mention that Edgar,
the 1 that is, quote unquote, trying to
treat her is like a cult leader for
some context.
He does not sound like a therapist I
want. He... Like, he's saying that some of
(08:22):
the right things,
but in this very creepy
voice.
Also, for listeners Edgar, the cult leader slash
inappropriate therapist is played by Chad Michael Murray.
Yeah. Which that's fun to see him, but
it's also he's a creepy.
Yes.
(08:42):
But so we hear, you know, from her
family, and they... It they trying to approach
it in this sympathetic way. Like, oh, betty,
there's something horrible. We have to tell you.
And now that we've told you that you
have these quote unquote serial clear dreams. We
wanna try to help you.
And this is a common theme where, like,
Betty,
kinda feels like she doesn't fit in or
(09:02):
she feels like there's a darkness inside of
her and we hear her talking to her
internal self that's reminding her of all these
supposed violent acts that she has done, like,
in her life that she maybe has, like,
suppressed and doesn't remember.
Yeah. Well, and I think with that, like,
before we get into, like, whether the jeans
they're talking about our real.
I feel like it's it's a common to
(09:22):
see this where
then you find out about this genetic
in for, in this case, you know, violent
tendencies. And then you start to kinda rethink
everything or attribute everything to this Yeah. New
thing that you've learned. Right? Then And whether
it's actually the reason why she's having these...
Has this dark side or has these, like,
(09:44):
serial killer tendencies, like, we'll kinda get into
whether that
real or not real.
But I think that's, like, kind of what
we're seeing here is now. She's like, okay.
Now I know this about myself. Now I
know I have this potential pro fertility or,
like, propensity for violence.
And so now I'm, like,
rethinking everything and coping with what that means
to, like, be pro potentially, like, pre dustin
(10:06):
to be a serial killer potentially.
Exactly. That's 1 of the only things I
kind of agreed with Edgar, Chad Michael Marie,
when he says, like, just because you have
this new information, doesn't mean that this necessarily
has to define you. And we'll definitely get
into that more when we talk about...
What science if any,
this kind of portrayal of the serial killer
(10:27):
or murder gene is based on.
But that was 1 thing where I did
agree with it him. Right? Like We do
know in a lot of things. It's like,
you know, the nature versus nurture, like jeans
and environment like there are many things that
go into it versus just 1 thing. So
that was 1 thing I was kinda like,
okay. I agree. But then he started talking
about, like,
locating the physical trauma and healing her. Through
the pain and h her so that she's
(10:48):
talking to the dark betty, and I kinda
wasn't board with all of those things.
Or
Well, and then, I mean, without knowing much
of the context, Like, what's his aim here
if he's a call leader. I don't know
how... Well doesn't he even have a degree
or a l sense to be doing anything?
You know, what are his credentials?
And what are his motive? Definitely none. What
(11:09):
are his motive? No sc and very good
to question the motives, the motives are definitely
sketchy. And honestly, unfortunately, for Betty like kind
of her family. Trolls their motivation. So she
does go on to learn that they're actually
not being very accurate with her. Many family
members of hers have this gene,
you know, including, like, her serial killer father,
including her mother, including, like, you know, she
(11:31):
kinda starts to une earth a lot of
family secrets. And then, actually,
She ends up kind of going an alternative
route. She spoiler alert does not become a
serial killer, but does start working for Fbi
to kind of use her
skills and interest in a more productive manner.
And so there's 1 other really quick clip
I wanna play where Betty is kind of
using her
(11:52):
serial killer gene
superpower, I guess we could go it. Start
right the deep end of the swimming pool
with serial killers.
Her brother is so hot.
Now I put together a little exercise to
kick off.
This is a crime scene. Where 6 victims
were found buried along a River Riverbank in
the Pacific Northwest.
(12:13):
Then before I start filling in all the
details,
And it guesses on which 1 of these
men is the murderer?
It's the third man.
That's correct, buddy. How did you know that?
I don't know. Just
intuition.
Okay then.
(12:34):
Let's try another 1.
Which one's the serial killer.
The serial.
It's the 1 in the middle.
Correct again.
Your intuition is like a 6 sense.
(12:55):
Let's go again.
None of them did it.
Excellent work, betty.
Not many people have that kind of raw
instinct. You're like beautiful life, but
for serial killers.
(13:15):
Oh, can any of you guess what the
murderers all haven't come? Nothing
is not kind of the point.
Actually, they all have 1 thing in common.
A specific set of genes.
They discovered that you have the M oa.
And a cd
chains.
Also known as serial color change.
(13:40):
More ominous.
This is, I think it goes even more
off the rails here.
You mean, you've never met a person with
a certain, like, you know, maybe genetic
mutation, genetic different. Is certain genes that can
just identify other people with those same genes
by looking at. By looking at still photos
(14:01):
of them on a projector and no.
I don't think we need to do the
real
science or movie real to discern whether that
is accurate or not.
Yeah. And then the whole, you know, kind
of like, the revelation there is, like, the
1 thing that all of these killers did
have in common.
Are the same jeans that Betty, you know,
(14:23):
had reached, like, been told when she was
younger. She also has. And so we're led
to believe that's why she has this intuition
or you know, 6 senses he describes it.
1 of the interesting things is that person
who is talking is her...
I forget exactly if it's like step or
half. No. He has to be a her
half brother, who she later finds out also
has the jeans and later finds out has,
(14:44):
like, murdered. People. So, you know, kind of
running in the family
with this, like, same storyline.
I also forgot to mention 1 of the
things that I found
also not very realistic from the original clip
is working in a in children's hospitals.
I don't know if, like, a concussion or
bike accident. Is usually the kind of a
(15:04):
problem that people come in for and then
end up with, like, full genetic testing and
all of these different.
No. Absolutely. Genetic testing is actually not that
easy to get. Like, it's not something very,
like, you go to your doctor regularly and
you get labs done, and then take your
blood to get, like, your vitamin levels and
things like that, but they're not getting, like,
your genetic testing done.
(15:25):
Like, if you're doing that, it's usually, like,
you're paying to get it done for, like,
23 in me or ancestry or what are
those companies or they're running genetic testing to
look for certain conditions that may be linked
to
issues that you're having, but it's not like
a routine routine thing being done, I don't
think at least, that I'm aware of to
just be running genetic testing on people.
(15:45):
I would agree with that. I think most
likely it's if people are coming in, maybe
you have, like, a cluster of symptoms or
they're noticing certain things, and it really is
an explained by other
conditions or diseases, likely then genetic testing will
be recommended to look and see if there
might be, like different syndromes or genetic mutations
related to the symptoms to help aid for...
With treatment. Right? And also, like, kind of,
(16:07):
some
potential information about the prognosis or 3 of
the symptoms the person is experiencing. But that's
usually after there's some inclination or some reason
to then get referred for genetic testing.
Again, 8 year old on a bike accident,
couldn't maybe with a concussion. I don't see
the doctors been in the emergency room being
like, let's a full genetic panda on this
(16:28):
child. Ex have a serial killer gene. Yeah.
A lot of resources for, yeah, a very
random referral.
Yes.
But so as we heard there, you know,
kind of betty
sip... You know, in this fictional Riverdale world,
She learns that she does have these jeans.
Her family members have these genes. She does
(16:50):
have family members who have gone on to
be serial killers.
And so now
that we've kinda heard this fictional tail around
bev,
what does this really mean or look like
in 10 a real life? Like, what is
this so called murder or serial killer gene?
Yeah. And so, you know, something we often
look at is, like, when they
(17:11):
usually, the producers were, like those screen screen
plate writers will kind of do their homework.
Right? So, like, the Mao gene is a
real gene that does exist and there is
some research support for
vague versions of what they're describing. It is
not colloquially called the murder gene or the
serial gene, like, in the scientific world, it
does more commonly in the scientific world go
(17:33):
by the name, like, the warrior gene. Though,
I would say, like,
real people studying this aren't gonna call it
by that They're gonna call it by its
actual name, which is the, like, mono ox
AMA0A,
gene.
G.
And that's important because kinda like what we're
seeing has now been picked up in the
(17:53):
popular media and Tv show movies. They then
kinda make it even more,
more casual, murder, serial killer. So even naming
it something like the warrior gene or calling
at that rather. Could be kind of stigma
digitizing or kinda lead to, like, bias judgments
or thoughts related to it.
And so what is this M mao
gene?
(18:14):
So this is, you know,
genetics and some of the topics that we're
gonna talk about, like, in the brain and
neurotransmitters and all of that, in and themselves,
you know, people go on to study for
years and years and we take us a
long time. So we're gonna kinda do a
brief overview,
and we'll definitely provide some resources for further
reading and information. But kind of the quick
(18:35):
end as easy as we can maybe think
to describe it. The M a oa gene
does code or, you know, creates
for a certain enzyme, which is the mono
immune ox a. And this enzyme plays an
important role in breaking down
neurotransmitters in the brain. And so neurotransmitters
(18:56):
kind of a fancy word for chemical messengers
in the brain that sends signals throughout the
body, and these are responsible and in and
can impact the way that we feel. So
for example, some neurotransmitters people may have heard
about are serotonin and dopamine.
And people colloquially also have a name for
these easy though it's not as, like, you
know, maybe stigma is, like, warrior gene or
(19:18):
murder gene, but they do call these the
quote unquote happy hormones.
And this is because those types of nerve
neurotransmitters play a role in regulating our moods
and emotions.
Yeah. And that was a very... A very
nice overview, Doctor Sam.
And so so what we understand about the
Mao gene is that... And that enzyme produces
is that the
(19:38):
It helps break down the neurotransmitters at doctor
Sandwich is mentioning serotonin,
and other ones such as epinephrine and norepinephrine
which control the body's response stress. So it
has an interaction with all of these neurotransmitters,
which then can impact mood and suffer regulation
in response to stress, etcetera, etcetera. And 1
of the things that's important to note is
(19:59):
if this M mao gene is not creating
that enzyme that breaks down these neurotransmitters, you
might think, oh, that's actually a good thing.
More of these happy hormones, but actually, just
like with most things, moderation is key. So
if we have an excess of these hormones,
that's where it can lead to some differences
or potential
deficits or difficulties for some people. Mh.
(20:21):
Yeah. No I think that's a really good
point of that idea of like, oh, I
want more happy hormone, but too much of
anything is not necessarily a good thing.
And so what they have shown and there...
There's been research support for this is that
some people with
improper M mao gene function, like, showing lower
expression, for example of M mao
can lead to higher levels of the compounds,
(20:43):
which has been linked to some outcomes such
as aggressive behavior. That's not to say that
everyone with low expression of M mao
automatically is going to exhibit aggressive behavior, but
when they compare,
people with the improper functioning of the gene
to those, with proper functioning of the gene,
they do see differences between those groups.
(21:05):
Mh And it's always an important to note
that there are mixed findings in this research,
like, with much
research that we discuss.
And
oftentimes, some of this research has been found
to be correlation. So that means like we're
seeing some connections, we're seeing associations between this
gene and potential aggressive behaviors,
and there are people that have this gene,
(21:28):
many people actually who surprise surprise do not
go on to become serial killers or murderers.
So important to note that while some people
who may
have a propensity or demonstrate violent behavior, have
this gene, not everyone that has this gene
demonstrates violent behavior, and that's an important distinction.
Right. And not everyone who's engaging in violent
(21:48):
behavior has this gene. Right? So it's not,
like, an automatic 1 for 1 either way.
And so I I think another extension of
this is that, like, with... Basically with anything
in biology genetics, psychology, like, it's never that
simple. Right? Like, it'd be great if we
pinpoint, and I think that's why we get
so interested in this and wanna call it
the murder here. It wouldn't be great if
we could just identify and be like, this
(22:09):
person's is gonna become a serial killer
address that now, and then we can prevent
a lot bunch of loss of life. But
that's not that simple unfortunately. And so where
the M mao gene has also gotten a
lot of attention is really through
people may have heard, like, the gene by
environment
interaction or kind of this idea of, like,
nature versus nurture, and some of that research
originally was with the My gene specifically and
(22:32):
what early researchers were able to find what
they've replicated this in many studies now is
that it was actually a combination of men
in particular with this m mao l
variation,
plus
having child treatment histories,
those that interaction together made people a lot
more prone to exhibiting anti social behavior or
(22:52):
violent behavior later in life, not just violent
or aggressive behavior, but a host of other
kind of things associated with anti social behaviors,
which we've done deeper dives on before, but
generally, it's, you know, kind of
not really
responding to authority or, you know, kind of
rule breaking or, you know, conduct issues. So
(23:13):
kind of a host of different behaviors not
just violence aggression.
Definitely. And we can also link to previous
sessions of ours where we do a deeper
dive.
I will also add that that's not too
surprising when we think about some of these
neurotransmitters that are not, you know, being properly
regulated,
are related to the way we regulate our
(23:35):
emotions and also the way we manage our
stress reaction. Right? Or the body's response to
stress. So when you're thinking of the potential
of having this gene and exposure to trauma
and abuse and things like that, seeing that
combination,
based on what we know about what this
gene does, makes sense. Right? Like, that it
could be the combination of factors.
And again, not a 1 for 1, but
(23:56):
this some is something that we see in
the research.
Also interesting to note that it is most
commonly found in men
because without going, like, too much into, like,
the genetics and biological factors, it is, I
believe
linked on the x chromosome. And so while
it can be found in females, they do
see it more in men related to the
(24:16):
XYX
chromosome expression. Mh. Yeah. I think that's a
good point. And a lot of the research
has been done with men,
particularly at this. Or they they they've have
stronger effects that they find with this gene
for men in aggressive behavior and the findings
are usually not as strong for women or
they look a little bit different.
And I think again, thinking about, like,
is it the gene itself or is there
(24:37):
something that the gene might be linked to
or child malt treatment history might be linked
to if that's actually then driving the aggressive
behavior of the violently behavior later. Mh So
some things that, like, M me, gen type
expression have been associated with are maybe, like,
lower executive fun prostate sing or functioning, Mh
or, like, working memory or attention control or
another 1 I've seen is, like imp.
(24:58):
So is it really that
this is leading to aggression or does it
maybe make some of these other underlying processes
that might drive aggressive behavior.
Someone has more imp, for example, and then
when they're faced with a stressful situation, they're
more likely to lash out with aggressive aggression.
Because of the imp,
that is may driven by the gene, but
it's not a 1 to 1 gene automatically
(25:20):
equals aggression.
Yeah. I think that's a great point and
something to consider because Again, it's like, are
these people with the gene maybe having more
difficulty within, more difficulty with regulating emotion, more
difficulty with, like, their stress response? And those
types of things might for certain people with
certain experiences
lead to potential violent behavior. Yeah.
(25:42):
So in short,
Gene does exist it is not quite a
emerging or serial killer gene. It has some
links to
anti social or violent behavior,
but not a causal
relationship by any means.
No. And I like doctor Fran how early
on you had mentioned, like in science and
(26:04):
psychology,
we're often looking for these things we called
biomarkers.
Which are kind of some kind of biological
sign or symptom that we can look at
in pinpoint and make a diagnosis and then,
you know, prescribe or give a treatment,
these things can be really helpful and at
least like in a lot of psychological
constructs and diagnoses, they're not as simple it's
like, oh, this person has this gene. They're
(26:25):
likely going to be violent, Let's go ahead
and treat it just like you mentioned. So
I think while a lot of the science
is valid and important and it does help
to el date and, you know, certain factors
and help us to learn things.
It doesn't kind of explain everything
right that they are saying it does, and
especially when movies and Tv shows pick it
up, because, oh, really interesting. They found a
gene that's linked to violent behavior and serial
(26:47):
killers a murder and now we're just gonna
run with it and say, this gene, if
you have it, you're likely to become a
serial killer and kind of, you know, make
it all
glamorous and fun and dramatic for Hollywood. Definitely.
And I I think that's a good transition
because we'll also talk about another direction this
has gone is also how, like, courts or
the legal system maybe has taken this concept
(27:09):
and run with it. So let's
transition and we'll talk about another show and
and and carry on the conversation from there.
So I wanna bring in a clip from
Apple Tv show defending Jacob.
So for those who haven't watched it, it's
(27:29):
1 season. I don't know if I think
they are maybe planning to do a second
season But the general premise is, a young
boy. He's, like, 15 years old, I believe.
Is accused of murdering his peer.
And the whole show is really about his
defense and, you know, did he do it?
Did he not do it? His parents are
even kind of grappling and struggling with the,
did he do it?
(27:50):
But they're also trying to defend him because
he's still their kid and they don't have
any clear evidence at what 1 way or
another. And so as part of his defense
strategy,
they actually have him undergo genetic and psychological
testing to determine whether he may have a
propensity for violence. The idea
is that if he does end up being
charged guilty of murder,
(28:10):
could they use the results of the test
depending on what they find to
you know, get a lighter sentence. And it's
similar to the clip you share doctor Sam,
part of this is related to he finds
out. They find out that his grandfather is
in jail for murder.
So then they're wondering is their genetic reason?
Right? Does the family have a genetic just
disposition? And so the father's actually a defense
(28:33):
attorney,
not a not a serial killer or not
murder kind of flipped to the other direction.
But the question is, like, you know, does
this kid have some kind of propensity for
violence that
make it him a lighter sentence because it
wasn't his fault or, you know, he didn't
have as much control quote quote. So in
the click that we're about to hear the
x expert on genetic inheritance and behavior. I
(28:54):
believe she's a medical doctor
who specializes in this area. She's providing the
testing results to the parents and to the
the child's lawyer. Okay. Child's child is not
present. Child is not present. I as you
know. I've been evaluating Jacob for the last
several weeks using a number of diagnostic tools,
of basic personality, inventory, or problematic traits, inventory
(29:15):
and all the results there in the reports.
I also tested his Iq, which is unusually
high and his E iq, his empathy quotient.
The report also contains the results from the
genetic testing.
That I conducted and it includes the MAA
mutation, what's coming known as the the warrior
chain or the murder gene.
(29:35):
And Andy father tested positive fourth mutation as
did Andy,
Jacob did not.
No. The thing is that's not,
Anyway wasn't really central to my evaluation since
it's actually inherited from the mother, and not
father.
Well, then what was the purpose of the
testing? Because there are similar genes that are
(29:57):
passed down from father to son.
For instance,
G 1, which is glut receptor subunit, it's
been linked to traits, like, imp and reckless.
All 3 generations of Barbara Males tested positive
for the Green variant,
including Jacob.
There's also a dopamine gene linked to a
(30:19):
limited capacity for empathy.
Again, all 3 generations of Barbara Males tested
positive.
And, finally, there's a form of a testosterone
receptor known to induce violent behavior and adolescents
shortly after Puberty. Jacob.
Jacob passed that for. Jacob does. Yes.
As do Andy and billy.
(30:42):
But if a young person is already capable
of moral reasoning.
These genes won't just cause the brain to
flip a switch, and I will point to
Andy as proof.
Still what Top V is saying is if
we wind up with the worst case scenario
or Jacob's found guilty, we would have a
genetic base mission argument addiction when it goes
to senses.
(31:03):
It's not gonna happen, but it's important to
know is possible
best in case.
Well,
now we know.
And is he
capable of moral reasoning.
There are things in here,
anti social tendencies. Oh, that's just psycho go
(31:25):
back I'm asking Doctor. V. It's not a
simple Yes No answer.
I think you should read the entire report,
and if you want, we can have a
conversation and had a best address Jacob's issues,
but obviously, right now, the concern isn't therapy
the trial. So there are issues. He's a
teenager. They all have issues.
And he's not wrong.
(31:46):
However, if there was 1 area of concern,
it would be his capacity for empathy once
again the report goes into full detail. How
do you mean? Lori? This isn't really the
time to have this come? I want to
know what she means?
Well, for example, I brought up Ben R
in 1 of sessions and
Jacob's response was that?
(32:08):
People die every day by the millions.
And when I tried to prod him to
express some some emotion around ben's murder,
Jacob's cubs answers felt
practiced.
It's because you don't know him. I mean,
he's not a touchy feely kid that's...
He has empathy. You think he did it.
(32:31):
I didn't see that.
You didn't have to, Laurie? I have absolutely
no way of knowing if Jacob did or
did not do it, and it's also not
my job. You think you might have done
it. Laurie, This isn't productive. You do, you
think it's possible. You stop anything in there
you could say about a million other teenagers.
Very true. Oh why wouldn't you answer me?
Lori, Don't you never see these things you
never saw them then. You were so desperate
(32:52):
to be normal first all to be normal
We are normal. Oh my God, Andy, do
you think this is normal? This situation of
course not, but Jacob, yes. I know he
is. And this.
This doesn't change anything. This means nothing. Just
answer me.
Please.
(33:17):
I wish I could.
What do you think Doctor Sam?
Yeah. I'm curious. You know, I thought it
was a a good clip actually. Like, it
makes me wanna watch the show. I'll say
that. I haven't seen it yet. I have
been interested.
You know, I think it's interesting.
First of all, like, having some experience with
assessment of various
(33:37):
like not in the forensic setting or genetic.
I thought it it was interesting, and it
could be because it's related to an active
trial. So I have less knowledge about that.
But the fact that she was just kinda,
like, here's all this complex, genetic,
intelligence, E q,
behavior,
personality testing, go read it, and let me
know Have any questions was kind of curious
to me because I feel like, you know,
especially in such a high emotion situation. I
(34:00):
feel like that would be the context to
describe the findings to the parents and explain
what they may or may not mean.
So that struck me. And then as you
could see, it did seem to
strike a cord with the mother in a
negative way so that she started inquiring from
the doctor, Like, well, tell me? Like, what
do you really think? Like, do you think
my child could have done this? I do
(34:21):
commend the doctor because I feel like I
would have handled it similarly. Like, she's right.
She can't say 1 way or the other.
She doesn't know and that's not her role.
Her role just to kind of describe the
findings that, you know, she has come to.
Yeah. No. I think that's pretty accurate and
I think it again, like, gives an example
of the, like, looking for things once you
know too much or once you know something.
Right? So... And you don't see this in
(34:41):
this clip, but you get the
sense of once the mother starts to...
Once he's, you know,
you know, been arrested for murder and it
she starts thinking about it. Then, of course,
she starts having all these memories of, like,
oh, well, maybe this little thing that I
noticed, like, was a bigger deal than I
thought it wasn't a time. I thought it
was just normal kid behavior, but was he
acting aggressively. Right? So this idea of, like,
(35:03):
is there actually this predisposition or, you know,
kind of looking for a a pattern of
behavior you're right. And that's tricky because when
we look at, like, personality disorders, for example,
which we've talked about like anti social personality
disorder and kids you have, like, things like
conduct disorder. That is what we are looking
at, like, patterns of behavior, patterns of certain
things that have occurred.
And we do know from people who
(35:24):
do look back when people have conduct... Like,
have
gotten in trouble or gotten caught to
engage in violent behavior. Sometimes people will say,
like, oh, this kinda makes sense because they
were this way as a child or this
did happen. So we can sometimes connect the
dots that way, But you're right. You can
also overdo it. If you're kind of looking
for meaning
when maybe those patterns weren't there. And I
(35:46):
don't know. But that was 1 of the
questions I had actually about this show and
this child is, like, okay. I get his
grandpa's arrested for murder. But did this kid,
like, have a history of engaging another violent
behavior or axe. You'll have to watch the
show to find out.
I would say not as definitely not as
explicitly as like Betty, the example that where
she's like, had murdered her cat or push
(36:09):
a kid down the stairs. It's, like, the
examples the mom or call because are are
much more subtle, and you can kinda hear
that in the clip and this is, like,
a big theme through show is the mom
is, like, really concerned and kind of was,
like, now I... Now all these things I'm
thinking of and they actually were a red
flag, but dad is, like, these are... He's
has a way of explaining away everything. So
there are enough things that
(36:30):
are ambivalent are I'm a little ambivalent. Of
they could go either way. It could just
be a kid. That was mad at a
school mate and, you know, lost is temper
or it could be a pattern of
lashing out aggressively.
So they're... Yeah. Yeah. And definitely Would encourage
you watch.
Okay. Interesting. I will say 1 of the
things I like they touched upon, which is
a a point that we made when we
(36:52):
were talking about Riverdale and Betty. If she
talks about how Jacob did not have the
M mao jean, but also did have the
presence of other genes that are associated with
imp,
empathy or, you know, lower empathy and things
like that that could be... Associated
with,
you know, it's it's kind of interesting because
(37:12):
it is retroactive. He's already been accused of
murder. So it's like, now you think about
it. And you're like, oh, these genes would
be Right. Associated with murder and violence. But
if he had had this kind of assessment
and hadn't yet been
accused of murder. It's a different situation. Right?
Like, still something to be aware of, but
not as maybe dire as it is in
this case. Right. Exactly. It's all like, kind
of the the retrospective piece of, like, trying
(37:34):
to come up with, something. And it's a
little hard to hear because what you can't
see if you're only listening to this clip
is that as the lawyer starts talking about
the results,
it's kinda fading out because the mom is
just honing in on words that she sees
jumping out at her on the page like,
via anti social tendency, violent capability
And but what the lawyer saying manipulative is.
Yeah. But what the lawyer saying in the
(37:55):
background is that this is good news. This
means that if he's unfortunately found guilty,
we have a basis to argue mitigation based
on genetics.
So
interestingly, I was like, there's no way that's
been done in real life, but for the
podcast. We did some research, and there have
been a handful, not many. There have been
a handful of cases
(38:15):
where this kind concept of, like, behavioral genetics
has been showing up in the courtroom and
in criminal cases to introduce evidence based on
neuroscience or genetic methods.
So this might be things like Fm mri
or, like, brain imaging studies, neuro psych testing,
and genetics to
determine level of responsibility and therefore, what an
(38:37):
appropriate punishment would be. And so this isn't
something that At least that I saw has
been used to, like, get someone off the
hook completely of saying, like, oh, they're not.
You know, they're not built by reason of
insanity or something.
Or guilty, But if someone has been found
guilty, There have been some instances where in
appeals court or in sentencing,
the sentences have been reduced.
(38:58):
Because of this mitigating factor of them finding,
specifically the M mao
variant that we talked about earlier.
Mh. And what I thought was interesting about
some of these cases is not all of
them are the Us. Yeah. Like, I think
there was 1 pretty prominent case that came
out in the news into thousand and 7
that occurred in Italy
(39:19):
when,
a man had been accused and admitted
to stabbing and killing a man,
he received a sentence of 9 years in
2 months and then was appealed later
related to having a variant of the Moa
gene which they argued predisposed him to violence.
And so
relate,
based on that appeal, they were able to
(39:41):
get a reduced sentence. And I think that
it mentioned that was the first time that
had happened in a European country or European
court.
I believe there were examples of it happening
in other countries as well. So So very
interesting to find, like you're saying, not like
a total
excuse per s, but something that is considered
when thinking about punishment or the penalty or
(40:01):
what the the court ruling will be. But
I feel like it kind of could pose
even more questions because this is maybe highlighting
that this is someone who is predisposed
to violence and might
be a re offender right of potential violent
crime. So I feel like that makes it
very complicated and complex. Definitely. Yeah. And and
we'll link some articles, but there's a really
interesting 1 that talks exactly about that kind
(40:22):
double edged sword of
while you can argue that you know, there's
maybe less responsibility or c
because it was this predisposition at the same
time at this... Then you're also admitting Oh,
but I have this predisposition so then it's
what's to stop you from doing it again.
So it's... You know, they... I think what
they've seen so far is that it's been
(40:42):
more used
to argue for mitigation of sentencing or mitigation
of of circumstance dance
and not as much for the, you know,
the is gonna be offended. But I think
that's why you see that even when it
has been used successfully to
reduce a sentence, it's not reducing it from
you know, life to 1 year, it's reducing...
Like I think the example you were talking
(41:03):
about in Italy was reduced, I think, from,
like, 9 years to 8 years. I think
it was, like, 1 year less. And then
another example, did did go from, like, life
in prison without parole to a term of
20 years. So that that 1 is a
pretty big
difference, but still not like, going from life
without parole to
nothing.
(41:24):
Like probation. Right. Yeah. Community service. Yeah.
Yeah.
There's also been some interesting researchers to get,
like, where where is this going? Like, where
how much of a slippery slope could this
be? And so there was a... I thought
it was a pretty interesting study where they
surveyed
judges in the United States and had them
read a hypothetical case that was loosely based
(41:45):
on a real case
where they introduced
some genetic evidence as part of it to
see how much that impacted the judges,
sentencing decisions. Mh. And so half of the
judges
got the genetic
information and half of them didn't.
And then what they found was that there
was actually a slight difference and that judges
who had the genetic information gave slightly
(42:08):
shorter sentences.
However, it was a difference of, like, less
than 1 year different.
So, kind of indicating that even if it
does influence, it's pre mild,
at least in this kind of like hypothetical
study.
Yeah. So maybe, like, statistically significant difference,
but
meaningfully
not so different for the people. Potentially, You
(42:29):
know, like, less than a year difference. Of
Yeah. And they've been... They've done more research
that I've seen, like, kinda trying to replicate
this in other countries and they've found no
difference, No impact on of the genetic knowing
about the genetic information on judges, and they've
also replicated it similarly
or had issues replicating it similarly with general
population in the Us so asking,
general population about their perceptions of someone's c
(42:52):
or responsibility or, like, what they think the
sentence should be that when they've given them
genetic material or not, they actually didn't find
any differences. So even if this does impact
decision making, at least from little research that's
been done, it doesn't seem to have a
super strong case
for it having, like, major
impacts at least on people's decisions around c
(43:14):
your since sentencing.
And even more interesting that if it continues
to be more prevalent and popular media and
continues to be called things like the murderer
and gene, People in general will be more
aware of it, which might also change and
skew perceptions, so something that'd be interesting to
kinda, like, keep an eye on as well.
Yeah. That's true.
(43:35):
So we've talked about the m a
gene, the so called murder, so called serial
killer, so called warrior gene.
In the case of Riverdale and Betty and
defending Jacob,
and then interestingly we're able to kinda dive
in a bit about what this gene actually
is. What's the research behind it. What are
some real life examples of how
(43:56):
this gene has been
used or seen in actual court,
cases and in the law. So a lot
of interesting stuff here.
And now doctor Fran, it's time. To answer
the question we posed at the beginning of
today's mini session, is this real science
or is the murder jean made for the
(44:17):
movie real? What is real? How do you
define real? Or you wanna stop the employee
and start getting real? Is that the intro
of the rear world? Have you ever questioned
an true your reality.
I'm not a puppet. I'm a real boy.
We accept the reality of the world with
which represented. You are not real. Through not
real.
I'm pretty sure none of that's real.
(44:38):
You're not real man.
So I think I'm the short answer is
it's the... Like, if we're talking about murder
gene, serial killer gene
is made for the movie real.
Not real science. So that's my short answer.
My longer answer is that there are aspects
of this, and I think the more we
(44:58):
talked about it tomorrow. I was like, there's
aspects of this that are real ish
real science ish. Right, Moving in that direction.
So I think I think the defending Jacob
clip is a better
representation and is a little bit more accurate
of how if you were to talk about
this in this context,
how an actual doctor with credentials and with
a degree,
(45:18):
would talk about it and think about it
and how that might be used in a
criminal case potentially. So I think that was
a decent representation. But thinking about this, like,
serial killer murder gene as a, like you
have it, and it means you're gonna be
a serial killer,
definitely not real science.
Should
What do you think?
(45:39):
I agree. I think no surprise from our
discussion, but I agree, especially in the Riverdale
clip.
I think much more made for the movie,
real,
very hyper poll. It was very much like
ominous. Like, she has this murder gene. Now
she's being like, h digitized by cult leader.
And so, you know, I felt like that
was very sensational.
(45:59):
And then they show her having kinda like,
the special talent for identifying other serial killers
and being able to capture serial killers in
Fbi because she herself has this, like, serial
killer gene,
So, you know, I think that was very
much Made for the movie rail. I do
agree that the defending jacob cup clip,
you know, from that short clip and the
context that we discussed does seem more leaning
(46:23):
towards real science because I could see an
actual assessment. You know, they looked at multiple...
Facets. They looked at personality They looked at
behavior. They looked at genetics. They looked at
cognitive functioning. Right? They kind of took a
bigger picture facets
to better understand just this child In this
adolescent rather. So I feel like that's a
more accurate approach I also like the way
(46:43):
she did describe the jeans, but also, like
various jeans and clusters of genes and what
they may or may not mean, and also
that they're not necessarily, like,
a hundred percent, like, cause... There's not c.
You haven't seen that means this happens. It's
more about, like, some potential
trends or difficulties or deficits. So I thought
that was a bit more accurate. I also
honestly thought that the parents reaction Was pretty,
(47:06):
accurate. How a parent might react. Both parents,
honestly, like, people have different approaches
to help parents might react in that kind
of setting. So I think that 1 was
real ish. And I think it's interesting just
like in a lot of these cases for
us to talk about
the actual science, the literature, the research, some
of the things that we know, some of
the questions we still have and then to
(47:27):
reflect how that is later mirrored and shown
in Tv shows and movies. So just always
interesting to stop and think about it. But
murder gene serial killer gene definitely made for
the movie reel. Yeah. For sure. Well, and
I think as as you bring up, you
know, as this is our first. Real or
real
session, like, we'd love your other ideas on,
like, what are these kind of questions you
have of, like, oh, I see this pro
(47:47):
portrayed in movies. I see this pro portrayed
in Tv shows. Like, is this real
science? Or is it made for the movie
real? Like, is this totally made up? Or
is this, like, actually something that is scientifically
back? So if you have ideas send them
all away.
And any questions, ideas, clips, things that you
feel like would be?
Of interest or you're curious about to cover
(48:09):
in any future sessions, Please send those our
way as well. And always please check out
our social media, we're at Floyd Skip pod
on all the things including
Tiktok.
So we're gonna try to make some more
tiktok to check that out, and please
subscribe rate and with you.
Time's up.
See an session.
(48:34):
Thank you We'd like to thank Our producer
Brandon, Creative Director Eric
at web.
Tomato
Red ram, red ram. No.
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