Summary
In this episode, Jerry Vinci speaks with Andrea Donovan, founder of Chicago Senior Living Advisors, about the importance of advocating for families in the senior living industry. Andrea shares her unique approach to helping families navigate placement decisions, emphasizing the need for personalized guidance over commission-based services. The conversation explores the challenges families face when choosing senior living options, the emotional stakes involved, and the shifting dynamics within the industry that prioritize filling beds over resident care. Andrea's insights highlight the critical role of advocacy in ensuring families make informed decisions that truly meet their loved ones' needs.
Learn More:
- Visit Chicago Senior Living Advisors
- Connect with Andrea Donovan
Takeaways
- Families need someone on their side when choosing senior living.
- Andrea Donovan's model focuses on long-term fit over quick solutions.
- Many placement agents prioritize community incentives over family needs.
- Judging a senior living community by aesthetics can lead to poor decisions.
- Understanding staffing ratios is crucial for families.
- The pressure to fill beds in senior living communities is increasing.
- Families often lack the right questions to ask during tours.
- A structured schedule is essential for effective memory care.
- The emotional stakes in senior living decisions are high for families.
- Advocacy in senior care is vital for better outcomes.
Chapters
00:00 Welcome to From Leads to Leases - A Senior Living Podcast
01:35 Andrea Donovan's Unique Approach to Senior Placement
05:29 What Families Risk Using Free Placement Services
07:20 Dangerous Mistakes When Choosing a Senior Living Option
08:29 How Andrea Handles Complex Placement Cases
15:47 What Placement Failures Look LIke for Older Adults
20:04 Sales Teams are Being Pressured More Than Ever
21:10 Issues with Senior Living Staffing and Culture
23:35 Changes in How Families Make Decisions
28:25 Proper Evaluation of Memory Care Communities
31:31 Do Operators Understand The Family Perspective?
35:01 How Placement Agents can Maintain Relationships with Communities
36:19 How Communities Should View Advocates for Seniors
39:42 Andrea's Self-Reflections and What Keeps Her Motivated
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
For some of these assisted living places to take on
something that is completely outof their realm.
And then somebody does end up back in skilled nursing.
To me, that's a. Form of elder abuse.
They're planting this idea in their head.
That they're going to be able tostay there forever and they just
can't. What if families had someone on
(00:21):
their side, not the communities?Someone who could help them
avoid the biggest mistakes when choosing senior living.
Today's guest built her entire business around that mission.
Welcome to From Leeds to Leases ACCR Growth podcast that helps
senior living providers transform their complex
challenges into opportunities. Listen in for stories from
(00:44):
industry leaders, innovative strategies and insights, and
with our expertise, learn how toincrease occupancy faster,
Guaranteed. Welcome back to another episode
of From Lease to Lease is the podcast that dives deep into the
senior living and senior care industries, bringing you
insights, strategies and storiesfrom the experts at the
(01:04):
forefront of innovation, leadership, and care.
I'm your host, Jerry Vinci, CEO of CCR Growth.
For those of you who don't know about us, CCR growth is a full
service marketing and growth agency that's exclusive to the
senior living industry. And through this podcast, I'm
here to guide you through the evolving landscape of senior
care, exploring the innovations,strategies, and leadership
insights that are shaping the future of the industry.
(01:26):
So whether you are a provider, acaregiver, or industry leader,
this show is here to help you make informed decisions and
create meaningful impact. All right, Today I'm joined by
Andrea Donovan, founder of Chicago Senior Living Advisors.
Andrea is a senior housing consultant, geriatric care
manager, and certified guardian who works exclusively for the
(01:47):
families navigating placement decisions, not the communities
themselves. Her model prioritizes
objectivity, advocacy, and long term fit over quick solutions.
If you've ever wondered what it really means to protect families
from making the wrong decision, Andrea has some powerful
insights to share. So, Andrea, thank you so much
for joining us today and welcometo the show.
(02:09):
Flat Jerry, thanks for having me.
Absolutely. This is one of my favorite
topics to talk about. I think there's so many unique
angles to it, and I love the waythat you're going about helping
families make smarter decisions.You built your practice around
representing the family directlyand not the community.
What made you take that path? Because I know a lot of
(02:30):
placement agents, they do the opposite.
They kind of work, not necessarily work for the
communities, but they definitelyhave a model that incentivizes
the communities rather than the families.
So what made you take that path and what problem were you trying
to solve? The reason I took that path is
because I started in the senior living industry as a marketing
(02:50):
and admissions director for a continuing care retirement
community, and it was Catholic based.
And I know that I'm dating myself here, but at the time I
was getting so many telephone calls, mostly from the children
of the seniors who didn't have any solutions to the senior
living problems that they were trying to solve, that I saw a
(03:14):
niche for a consulting business.And so I quit my job there.
And I started out by touring andevaluating close to 150 senior
communities around the Chicago metropolitan area.
And now that I've been at this for over 20 years, I have
probably been in over 500 of them.
(03:36):
And what I looked at was the cost and the method of payment
that they accepted, the levels of care that they had available,
the staffing, which is the most important component that when a
family is taking a tour, they need to be asking about that.
And then I took copies of the transportation schedules, the
(03:58):
activity schedules, and I also tasted the food at all of these
places so that when a family calls me for my services, based
upon what they tell me, you knowthat their loved one can and
can't do for themselves what their financial realities are
and what their location preference happens to be.
(04:19):
Then that's how I narrow the options for 2-3 or four places
that fit their big picture. And The funny thing was, is that
when I started this business, I had no idea that some of the
free agencies that are out thereactually existed.
I was talking to a colleague at one of the large meetings that
(04:43):
they offer on a monthly basis for the senior living providers.
And she was listening to what I was doing.
And she said to me, well, you know, that's kind of an unusual
arrangement that you have. And I said, well, what do you
mean? And she said most of the
communities are compensating people like yourselves.
(05:04):
They're not charging an hourly fee like you are.
But I just felt that approachingit that way, not even knowing
that there was another fee strapstructure out there was actually
the correct way to do it becauseyou're finding the custom made
option for the person rather than just giving them a bunch of
(05:26):
options and not some guidance. I love that.
I think that's, I totally agree with that methodology.
I think that makes total sense and and because you're working
this different system, what haveyou seen go wrong when families
rely on free placement services that work on Commission?
Well, The thing is, is that I I don't see a lot of guidance
(05:48):
being given with regard to what the options are.
I'm very detailed oriented because I spreadsheet everything
for people and I select things according to the individual's
needs and their finances versus just giving a bunch of options
to people and sending them out to look on their own.
(06:10):
I actually tell people, look, this is what it's going to cost
you with this place. And if you're looking for a
higher level of care, meaning assisted living or skilled
nursing, this is their staffing ratios.
And in the cases of skilled nursing, I actually tell people
how they've done on their inspection from the state on an
(06:33):
annual basis. And I tell people what they've
been written up for so that people know exactly what it is
that, you know, the per place isdeficient in is in before they
even go out to look at the organization.
Yeah, that's one of the biggest things.
People have no clue even where to find that information a lot
of the time. So that's great that you're
(06:53):
putting that out there up front.How do families typically
respond when they realize you'reworking only for them?
I would say that 98% of my clients hire me because I'm not
being driven by a Commission check that's at the end of the
road. They realize that there's
there's no financial gain for mein this whole thing and that
(07:17):
working for them is actually a huge plus.
I want to talk a little bit about the cost of the wrong fit
to. I think that's something that a
lot of families unfortunately experienced.
What are some of the most damaging mistakes families make
when choosing senior living options?
Would say judging a place by itsaesthetics is one of the hugest
(07:39):
mistakes that I see them making.The other thing is, is that they
have to be alerted to the fact that the salespeople are
actually commissioned. Most of the time, if I'm going
out with the family and I'm listening to what the
salesperson is telling them during a tour and I disagree
(08:01):
with what they're saying, I stopped them immediately.
But I find that the biggest mistake that people make is
believing that if they've got somebody who's got a complex
medical situation, a lot of these assisted living
communities have absorbed what the skilled nursing communities
(08:22):
used to do, and they truthfully aren't equipped to handle
anything that's complicated. I know last time we spoke to you
were telling me how you specialize in these complex
cases. What makes a case complex and
what makes you equipped to handle something like that?
OK, so since I've been doing this for 20 years, you know,
(08:45):
there's there's no book of knowledge, you know, about
handling cases that are complex.You know, I kind of just learned
how to do it as I went along. But as I had shared with you
once before, I was working with a couple.
The gentleman had had three kidney transplants and his wife
(09:06):
was getting to a point where shetruthfully needed to be in a
memory care unit and they lived in a well to do suburb in in
Northern Illinois and they needed to move because he was in
a skilled community due to the issues with with this kidney
transplant and he was very proneto UTI's and I was seeing him
(09:32):
get sick constantly. So I was hired on as their care
manager because with her memory issue, she really wasn't capable
of handling everything that he needed to have done for him.
So in a conversation that I was having with his urologist, the
(09:52):
urologist told me hey, you know,he's got 3 kidneys right now and
the third kidney that he has is not functioning at all.
So it would be much better if that kidney were removed and he
could just function with the twokidneys that he still got left
in his body. So they took that kidney out and
(10:16):
I basically arranged for everything from the pre surgery
to talking, you know, with, withhis doctors to even picking up
the body wash that he needed to do the night before the surgery.
So after the surgery was completed, he actually came out
of it very well and I. Noticed he really wasn't prone
(10:40):
to the UTI's anymore so he hatedthe skilled nursing community
that he. Was in, you know, of course you
never meet somebody who's in skilled nursing that says.
I love. It here, excited about it.
Yeah. So he begged me to move him into
assisted living. And I said, you know, I really
(11:00):
don't know if they're equipped to handle that, you know.
And of course his money manager got wind at that.
And he he was paying $17,000 a month for a private room in a
nursing home, you know, and all of a sudden her antenna are
going up and saying, you know, we could, we could lower his
cost of care. And I was like, whoa, wait a
minute. You know, I'm going to select a
(11:21):
couple of places that I think might might be be able to handle
his case. So I went ahead and I made a
spreadsheet of the organizationsthat did a lot of heavy hands on
care, but they were also communities that had a skilled
nursing component within their system.
So I was recommending that they go to a CCRC.
(11:44):
Well, this gentleman was bright enough where he decided.
That. He was going to do some research
on his own and he found an assisted living community that
was in his neighborhood and he said, I want you to check this
one out. And I said, well this is going
to be a big problem because theyhave no skilled nursing there.
(12:06):
So if you need that at some point, you're going to end up
right back here. And I, I said, plus your wife.
Is going to need memory care. They don't have that either, so
I did everything under the sun to make them understand that it
just wasn't a good move for them.
But of course, the care was justa huge amount less than what he
(12:28):
was paying. And so by the pressure that I
got from the money manager and from the members of his family,
I said, well, OK, you can try this.
However, I'm telling you right now that in the long run this is
not going to work for you. So we went on a tour of this
place. The nurse was present who
(12:50):
oversee. The.
Assisted living portion of the community.
And she said yes, we we can deliver his his medications on
time, you know, which is a huge component of his moving there
because he was on one particularmedication that has to be
delivered exactly at four different times during the day.
(13:11):
And while they assured us that they could do that, what
happened in reality was was something that was completely
different. We were also.
Told during this tour that therewas a nurse there 24 hours.
I found out after the fact that the nurse was on call 24 hours
(13:32):
even though I said is there a nurse here physically 24 hours a
day And they said yes. So ultimately this move lasted
all of about four months and there was an expenditure made
not only in moving all of their furniture to this place, you
(13:53):
know, and getting it whipped into shape so that it was
livable for them. And his wife was getting
continuously worse with with thememory issues and they would not
take her into assisted living. They told me point blank they
did not want the liability for her.
So between that and during theirlast month there, there were
(14:16):
four different trips to the emergency room with him
consecutively for four weekends.And So what I did was what he
needed to go to rehab. I sent him to the community
where I felt that they should have gone to in the beginning.
And then his wife had an accident where she had a
suitcase fall on top of her. She was injured and she needed
(14:39):
rehab. So I had them both transferred
to the same place and then I simply made them stay there.
That's definitely complex. I can't believe all of that.
And you had to facilitate all those moves.
And that's got to be difficult to being in a position where you
know, you know what's best, you know you know what's best, but
(15:00):
clients are fighting against youall the way through it.
And often people end up back in skilled nursing anyways, even if
they're trying to find some other solution.
How common is that? You know, if, if I'm handling
the case and it's done appropriately to begin with, it
doesn't happen, You know, I mean, a move from assisted
(15:23):
living to skilled, you know, when the person's health worsens
is one thing. But if it's a bad decision made
by family members and other professionals in the business
who don't have any business getting involved in in a part of
the specialty that's not theirs,that's that's the where the
(15:46):
mistakes are made. When those placements fail, what
does that failure actually look like for the older adult?
What are they experiencing during that whole process?
Well, all right, so when a failure like that does occur
naturally, you know, the person who ends back in skilled nursing
is angry and. A lot of.
(16:07):
Times, you know, he still, he still blames me for leaving them
there, but that's the appropriate level of care that
he needs to be at. And, you know, unfortunately,
all right, so he was already in skilled and then he goes to
assisted living where he couldn't be handled
appropriately. And then he's back at at skilled
(16:29):
nursing. He gets angry and and confused
as to why he's there because he's also got Parkinson's
besides that. So, you know, you end up having
memory issues with that disease too.
And then of course, you've got the family members fighting
about the money. Oh, he can't afford this.
(16:50):
It just it ends up to be a real mess.
But truthfully my opinion is this for some of these assisted
living places to take on something that is completely out
of their. Realm and then somebody does end
up back in skilled nursing. To me, that's a.
Form of elder. Abuse because they're, they're
(17:13):
taking them in temporarily and planting this idea in their head
that they're going to be able tostay there forever and they just
can't, you know, and a lot of times the, the solutions to the
problems that they come up with are often not affordable.
For instance, they, they ask people to hire additional care,
(17:37):
you know, with a home care agency.
So you're talking at the assisted living costs that are
somewhere average $7000 in the state of Illinois, but then to
hire somebody on top of that in the northern suburbs, it's 40 to
$45.00 an hour and those little 40 to $45.00 increments can
(18:02):
really add up. What is the gain by these
communities that are making those choices to kind of sell
people on an idea that's not actually true about, you know,
them being able to prosper and and thrive in a community like
that? I mean, is it financial?
Is it just to boost their census?
And what's the end game? You know what, Jerry, It
absolutely is financial because I can remember when I was back
(18:29):
in that sales position, I was getting tremendous pressure put
on me from the powers it be to keep that place filled.
And I know that I shouldn't admit this, but there were times
when they pressured me so badly that I even took things that
weren't correct. But the fact of the matter is,
(18:53):
the place was the CCRC and they had skilled nursing that
accepted Medicaid. So if somebody came in and it
didn't work out, they could justbe placed the skilled area.
So it wasn't necessarily such a bad thing.
But I can remember with the being a Catholic organization,
(19:15):
one of the sisters there who wasan administrator said to me,
Andrea, she said, I know that you're under a lot of pressure
from from the business people from up above.
But for God's sake, please exercise some common sense.
Those words have always stuck with me whenever I see something
(19:36):
like this happening. So I was on one end of the
spectrum, you know, where I had the pressure.
Being put on me and now, you know, I'm kind of in the driver.
'S seat with the. Family so I can help them do
exactly what's right, but then bottom line is the pressure that
these corporate organizations are are putting on the
(19:59):
salespeople. To keep the place filled is
just, it's tremendous. Would you say it's that's more
significant now than it was in the past?
Is there more pressure now? Yes, absolutely, because don't
forget, I've been doing this for20 years and there weren't as
many of these senior living communities.
(20:21):
Out. There and now there's a memory
care place popping up on every other corner.
And so, you know, you're literally competing with tons of
places, you know, that are rightin your locality.
So I can understand that the pressure that's being put on the
the people who are in the sales position.
(20:43):
But do I agree with some of the things that are being done?
Absolutely not. And do you think a lot of that
ties into the corporatization ofsenior living?
Yes, Yeah. I just find that when I was
first in the business, there wasa lot of compassion and the
resident always came first. Now it's just the numbers game
(21:07):
and the focus is just on keepingthe place filled.
Yeah, someone else I spoke to recently was talking about that
shift that it used to be about the residents and what what's
best for the residents. And then it shifted to what's
best for the staff because staffretention is such a challenging
issue right now that the communities are more focused on
keeping them happy than the residents.
(21:28):
So it's completely shifted that whole culture within the
communities. Not saying every community is
like that but but there are somefor sure.
Well, the biggest part of the problem is, is that the
availability of staff that are qualified ever since the
pandemic occurred has really puta burden on keeping these places
(21:49):
well staffed. So what what I would see as the
norm 1015 years ago and with allof these changes it it's not
even close to the same thing. Assisted living.
The ratio used to be about 8 residents to to one CNA.
(22:09):
Now it's it's way above that. I, I see ratios that are like 15
to 1, even worse than that. There was one place that I went
into where it's 25 to 1. I, I actually, I walked out of
the tour, I cut it very short because I just said, how can you
possibly have one CNA working with 25 different residents?
(22:35):
And that's why I say the most important thing that people need
to ask these places, what is theratio of your staff to your your
residents? And normally I get the stock
answer of, well, we staff according to acuity.
And that's when I say, OK, so that means that you're going to
(22:59):
staff according to exactly what the state requires you to have.
So take a guess, tell me what you think it is, you know, and
and they don't like it when I put them over a barrel like
that. But I can't place a client at
one of these places without knowing that.
No, not with the ratio like that.
I mean, we took my son out of public school because their
(23:21):
student, the teacher to student ratio was like 20 to 1 or 25 to
1. And we were like, that's that's
not enough personal touch and that's education.
That's not caretaking. It's, it's not good.
It's it's not the same story that it was before.
Given your tenure in this industry too, I mean, what
changes have you seen in how families make decisions?
As far as this, the family making decisions, I can tell you
(23:44):
that I see them make decisions based upon aesthetics.
It's not asking the right questions.
If I don't, if I don't go on a tour with a family, I give them
a list of questions and that's what I send them out with.
So a lot of times when families hire me, it's because they don't
know how to make the decision. And so that's why, you know, you
(24:09):
can, you can look on the Internet, which I know a lot of
people do, you know, and you're going to get 1,800,000 returns
when when you hit senior living in Chicago.
But based on my conversation andmy assessment with them, I can
take all those returns and narrow it down to the three
things that work. I have a couple questions.
(24:31):
I guess I just do these in order.
What, what would you say are your top five questions that you
would give somebody as as if they were going to tour on their
own without you? OK, So I always ask, I tell
them, all right, the staffing isone thing when you're looking at
the higher levels of care, I always say get a copy of that
(24:52):
activity schedules and look to see that because don't forget
your loved 1 is going to be moving there on a 24 hour basis
and you want to be. Certain that there's going.
To be something that keeps them involved and and something
that's social. I always tell people that
they've got to eat the food beforehand.
(25:13):
And the reason that I, you're going to laugh, you know, when
I, when I tell you the story. But I actually had a client who
called me and said, Andrea, you know, I've already put a deposit
down on this, this one place, but I have to tell you the
food's rotten. And I said, well, I can tell you
right now that's a reason for not going there.
(25:36):
I said, were you there for a special event or were you there
a day where they're just servingwhatever they're they're giving
to the residents? So he says to me, well, I was
there on a day where it was a special event.
I said, you can't do that. I said, go back there and just
(25:56):
get go on a day for whether you're going to get the regular
food and you get a chance to actually talk with the other
people who live there because you want to know if those are
going to be the people who you want to spend the rest of your
life with. So he he goes back and he does
that and he says the food was still rotten.
(26:18):
So I said to him, you're not going there.
I said, here's their their biggest competitor.
I said, I'll set up an appointment for a tour there and
you're going to go and have lunch.
Well, they went and he absolutely loved it.
And so he ended up pulling his deposit from one place, you
(26:38):
know, and giving it to the other.
And of course the other place found out and my name was Mudd
after that. But I don't really care because
I don't work for them. But that's, that's important.
The other important thing, this isn't necessarily a question.
Well, it is a question. You need to.
Ask if somebody can take a trial, stay there.
(26:59):
And the reason that I tell people to do that is because.
That gives you an opportunity tosee what goes on on a daily
basis and like I mentioned before, see if the other
residents there are the people that you want to spend the rest
of your life with. Do you think that you.
(27:20):
Can adjust to a place that mightbe smaller than than where
you're living. You know, it's and I always tell
people don't go there for less than a month.
I said, because a week is not going to tell you the story of,
of what the big picture is goingto be.
You have to go. For at least a month.
I also tell people this, when somebody is giving you a tour,
(27:42):
you need to analyze how that person is treating you.
And I, I'm talking about the admissions director, because if
they're not treating you with warmth and compassion during
that tour, that's a reflection of what's going to go on for the
rest of the person stay there. And I always tell people that
when they're touring A continuing care retirement
(28:05):
community that even though you might be going in at independent
living, you need to go into the assisted living area and you
need to go into the skilled areaand the memory care so that you
can see where you might eventually end up because there
should be no surprises there. Those are great questions,
(28:26):
insights for sure. One of the other things you
mentioned too, you were saying how there's like a memory care
community popping up on every corner, which I agree with.
How do you think communities should be differentiating
themselves? Because I feel a lot of
decisions nowadays are case driven.
Well, there's a memory care hereand it's 8000 a month, this
one's 7500 a month. We're going to go with this one.
(28:47):
What should be the real motivating factor that people
are looking at when evaluating these communities?
Well, all right, So with memory care most of the time unless a
place offers multiple levels of memory care, they are locked
units. So one of the first things that
I look at besides the staffing which I keep on going back to is
(29:10):
how many out trips they have on a weekly basis.
IE, are they, do they own a bus and are they taking the people
out on, on trips, even if it is a ride or a trip out to a lake
or something like that. You know, I'm not a big believer
in just having somebody locked up in a unit.
(29:32):
It's to me that's, that's very tough.
And this goes back to the important things that you should
be asking. When I suspect that there's an
issue with the place, I always walk in at very odd hours.
You know, like my, my former boss used to be a master at
walking into the skilled nursingarea after midnight or 1:00 in
(29:52):
the morning morning. I've shown up the places in very
bizarre hours just to see what'sgoing on.
But that's if my clients alreadythere.
As a resident, you were asking, you know, you, you've got to
make sure that what they're telling you just isn't a line
because truthfully, a lot of these places just remind me of
(30:14):
big warehouses and they're, they're really not doing
anything. When I asked them what are you
doing to differentiate differentiate yourself between
your your competition, they really can't answer me.
Scary. I see that a lot in my field,
marketing. We're constantly doing
competitor analysis between the communities we help manage and
the ones that are up against them in the market.
(30:37):
And it's pretty daunting how fewactually do anything to
differentiate themselves, even in memory care.
A lot of them don't have a memory care program that they
roll out. They all, if you ask them all,
do you have memory, they're like, yeah, we have memory care,
but what does that entail? What does the program look like?
Can you describe it? And they really don't have much
to to go on to sell you on it. So that's kind of scary.
(30:58):
You know, a decent memory care place is going to have a very
structured schedule so that they've got the residents
involved in activities from minute that they get up until
the minute that they they go to bed at night.
And you know, a lot of that doesn't really exist anymore.
(31:19):
You know, there's, there's a major activity at sometimes at
10, sometimes at 2:00, but I don't, I don't really see them
doing a good job at, at differentiating themselves at
all. I hope the answer to this
question is yes, but do you think most operators really
understand how emotional and high stakes these decisions are
for families? You know, if it's somebody who
(31:40):
has come up through the ranks and understands, you know, maybe
maybe they started out as the activity director and then
eventually, you know, moved through the system and told that
they're the executive director, yes, then I absolutely do
understand. But what I'm finding is that a
(32:01):
lot of the senior living organizations are business
people from outside of the industry, so that they're kind
of saying, well, you know, by our calculation, the admissions
people should be doing X number of tours on a day in order to be
successful. And whereas the admissions
(32:24):
people used to be very involved in not only introducing that
person on the first tour, but they would help them eventually
move in and kind of assist in acclimating the individual and
into getting settled there. Now that's all kind of changed.
(32:44):
And one of the salespeople at one of the what I consider to be
the better. Organizations has been telling
me that things have been changing and the
responsibilities of her helping that person to adjust have
totally been taken away from her.
(33:05):
It's also also become a situation where corporate is
deciding who can be accepted as a resident of the community and
and who can't be. I guess when the sales people
ask why, if certain individual can't be admitted to the
organization, the answer is kindof like, well, that's no longer
(33:27):
your business anymore. So really, it's been fascinating
to watch a lot of these changes.I know a lot of the owners too.
They're really just numbers. People like you were saying.
How many tours, you know, it's aformula for them.
If you work so many tours duringthe day, you, you have X result
from it. It's the same in our space.
It's like if you generate this many leads, this percentage will
(33:48):
convert to tours and that of that, this percentage will
convert to move insurance. And they're constantly looking
at those formulas and that's really all that matters.
Sometimes it's unfortunate they've, they forget the human
factor involved and, and even just the different levels of
care. There's a lot of emotions, and
these are tough decisions for people, and often times they're
not decisions that people necessarily want to make.
(34:09):
Nobody wants to go to memory care, you know, or skilled
nursing, so. No, I remember when I was
involved in that, that part of the process I used to hit.
There was one person who came back five times for for tours
and she cried in front of me every single time.
And finally I said, you know, I've got to do something to
(34:32):
close the sale. So I had her talk to the
resident of the community who was the happiest person there to
this date. I have no idea what was said
during that conversation, but once it took place, the
individual moved in the next day.
So I, I think they're, they're really kind of getting away from
doing that sort of a thing. It's just become more of a, a
(34:55):
thing of turning the numbers to,you know, just to, to make sure
you're, you're making your quota.
Talking a little bit about your work with communities and
despite not being commissioned based, how have you maintained
good relationships with communities?
You know, basically I don't get,I don't get any negative
reactions from these places because they're getting arrested
(35:18):
for free. You know, they're not not having
to pay me a Commission that's worth, you know, one month's
rent or or two months rent or whatever it happens to be.
You know, I, I spoke to one individual who one time said to
me, well, I don't see what the advantage of your kind of an
organization is at all. And I said, well, you got to be
(35:41):
kidding. I said, you're, you're getting
my referrals and I'm not charging you anything.
So that's, that's about the onlynegative reaction that I've ever
gotten. However, some of the salespeople
at the different communities hadtold me that they like the free
organizations because they're being instended by paying a
(36:02):
Commission. So I've heard both sides of the
story. Hey, Andrea's feet free.
We got no problem paying this other person as long as they
bring U.S. business. But technically it's still a
conflict of interest. Yeah, yeah, I would agree with
that. What would you like to see
change about how communities view professionals like you who
(36:22):
advocate from the outside? Like to see them view somebody
like me as giving them prospect that has been vetted so that
it's all the much easier for them to accept that person to
the level of care that I'm recommending for them to me.
(36:43):
Since I'm so meticulous about seeing that person and getting
their medical history and knowing what their finances are.
And I, I always refer my, my clients to places where they
hopefully would never have to move again, that they would see
somebody like me as being an, anasset because I've already done
(37:05):
a lot of the work for them. So I've given them a prospect
that's already been vetted. So I would think viewing
somebody like me would be a positive, you know, versus some
of the other organizations who send over 1000 referrals a week,
but none of them are appropriate.
So who would I rather work with?Me, obviously.
(37:30):
If a if a sales director or executive director were
listening to this, what would you say to help them understand
your value? Well, number one, you, you, I, I
don't cost you anything and I'm giving you a valuable client
who's who's been financially andmedically vetted for that person
to stay with you for a long time.
(37:51):
And, and if, if somebody does stay there and live for a long
time, that's obviously very profitable.
I mean, I realize nobody's goingto be in long term care forever.
But, you know, there are some individuals that have lived at
some of these places for a very long time.
I mean, the downside of working with some of the free
(38:13):
organizations is I understand that they have to stay there for
30 days before the Commission check is being issued.
And to me, given the choice, youknow, I'd rather be paid for my
work than and, and, and do the the placement appropriately
versus just taking the gamble, you know, and, and having the
(38:33):
person not be able to stay. There for 30.
Days and then you get paid nothing.
Everything has positives and negatives.
You know, I've, I've been doing this for 20 years.
I've never even knew that the other types of organizations
existed. But yet I've never changed the
way that I've done things. So it's it's worked for me.
And after all the years of doingthis work, what has been your
(38:56):
biggest personal or professionalinsight?
You know, my biggest personal and professional insight is I'm
going to go back to say I've never changed the way that I,
that I've done things. And I truthfully don't know of
anybody that has ever moved out of the community that I've
placed them at because they justhated it and it didn't work out.
(39:18):
So my, my success ratio is very good.
And I, you know, I can remember when I first started the
business, I was talking to a professional from the home care
agency and, or one of the home care agencies that existed at
the time. And she said to me, well, she
said, you're doing, you're doingthings the right way.
(39:40):
Versus. The way that isn't quite right.
Because you're often walking families through some of these
hardest, some of the hardest decisions they'll ever have to
make. And what keeps you motivated to
keep doing this? You know, the thing that
motivates me to keep doing it isthat I've been successful at it.
You kind of forget a very positive feeling.
I I'll never forget the first person that I ever placed was
(40:06):
was the mother of. Somebody who I needed to move
from assisted living to a skilled nursing community.
The daughter was a teacher and the first time that I met her
and I gave her the recommendation and set her up to
go on the tour, she took out hercheckbook and paid me right
there. So I guess I like the feeling of
(40:27):
the gratitude that I get from the families once the job is
done. There have been the few times,
you know, that I've placed people in non CCRC organizations
where the individual has had to move to a skilled community
because of healthcare issues. And they always come back to me
a second time. So all right, the first portion
(40:49):
of it was finished. Now they need a higher level and
they come back to me to do that part of it.
It, it's something that I may have done the placement 10 years
ago. And it's most of the time it's,
it's fun meeting with the families and it's, it's not the
senior who I'm dealing with. It's always their kid.
(41:10):
And I want to say a number of years back, the kid was always
my age, but now the kids that I'm helping are way younger than
I am. And while I actually thought
that at some point there would be some pull back from the
(41:30):
children not wanting to work with somebody who's in in my age
bracket, it doesn't bother them in the least.
They are so grateful just to have the job done and work with
somebody, you know, who's been doing this for for many years,
that they appreciate all the experience that I've had.
Yeah. Do you want to work with the
surgeon who just came out of Medschool, or do you want to work
(41:53):
with the guy who's been doing itfor 20 years?
What? And that's exactly what it boils
down to. I mean, I just thought that that
people would get so turned off, you know, when they'd see me
standing in their doorway. And it hasn't been like that at
all. As a matter of fact, I'm finding
that the older that I get, the more appreciative people are.
(42:15):
I have kind of a different senseof the whole big picture now
because you have to think of your own future and what you
think would be right for you. And so I have a certain
sensitivity that I can I can share with those families.
Andrew, my last question for you, what kind of impact do you
hope your work leaves behind forthe industry?
(42:35):
Actually hope that there are going to be individuals who will
have a business. Model.
That will be very close to mine.You know, use a little bit of
imagination and help people. Don't be afraid to get out there
and speak your when you feel that something isn't right, when
it's involved with a decision like this, that that's so
(42:57):
important because truthfully, itit could make or break somebody.
So I just, you know, I hope thatthere are people that that will
continue to take more of an advocate's position rather than
what the opposite of the coin isthat's.
A great perspective for sure. Where can our audience go to
learn more about Chicago Senior Living Advisors or connect with
you? OK, you can go to my website
(43:19):
which is Chicago Senior Living advisors.com.
I also have a Facebook page and the best way to get in touch
with me is my cell phone is right on my web page.
And I always return my calls thesame day versus then letting
somebody wait a couple of days because most of the time people
(43:42):
are in crisis and. They need somebody who can act
quickly and and that's me. Great.
Thank you. We'll make sure we put all that
in the show notes for our audience.
So, Andrea, thank you so much for such a great interview and
being so open to answering all these questions.
I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Jerry.
So, OK, so as we wrap up today'sepisode, I want to extend a
(44:04):
heartfelt thank you to Andrea Donovan for joining us and
sharing her candid perspective on what it really means to
advocate for families in this industry.
Andrea, your work cuts through the noise and puts compassion
and clarity front and center, and we're better for it.
So if you want to learn more about Andrea's work, we've
included all of her info on the show notes.
As always, we hope you found this episode insightful and
(44:25):
inspiring. Don't forget to subscribe to our
podcast on your favorite platform and stay tuned for more
episodes where we continue to explore the evolving world of
senior care, covering everythingfrom innovative care models and
leadership strategies to family support, technology and the
future of aging. Also remember that From Leads to
Leases isn't just an audio experience.
We're also a video podcast. So if you want to see the video
(44:47):
versions of our episodes like the one here with Andrea, make
sure to subscribe to our YouTubeor Spotify channels.
I'm Jerry Vinci, CEO of CCR growth.
Thank you for joining us on FromLeads to Leases and please like,
subscribe and share this episodewith anyone who might find it
useful. I'm truly grateful for your time
and attention. Until next time, leave a
strategy and with heart chat with you again soon.
(45:07):
Thanks, Andrea. Thanks, Jerry.
Thanks for listening to from leads to leases.
Are you ready to fill your roomsfaster and increase occupancy?
Visit ccrgrowth.com to learn about our Senior Growth
Innovation Suite, a proven system to generate highly
qualified tour ready leads, accelerate sales and reduce
acquisition costs. Let's connect and turn your
(45:28):
challenges into opportunities. See you next time.
For some of these assisted living places to take on
something that is completely outof their realm.
And then somebody does end up back in skilled nursing.
To me, that's a. Form of elder abuse.
They're planting this idea in their head.
That they're going to be able tostay there forever and they just
can't. What if families had someone on
(00:21):
their side, not the communities?Someone who could help them
avoid the biggest mistakes when choosing senior living.
Today's guest built her entire business around that mission.
Welcome to From Leeds to Leases ACCR Growth podcast that helps
senior living providers transform their complex
challenges into opportunities. Listen in for stories from
(00:44):
industry leaders, innovative strategies and insights, and
with our expertise, learn how toincrease occupancy faster,
Guaranteed. Welcome back to another episode
of From Lease to Lease is the podcast that dives deep into the
senior living and senior care industries, bringing you
insights, strategies and storiesfrom the experts at the
(01:04):
forefront of innovation, leadership, and care.
I'm your host, Jerry Vinci, CEO of CCR Growth.
For those of you who don't know about us, CCR growth is a full
service marketing and growth agency that's exclusive to the
senior living industry. And through this podcast, I'm
here to guide you through the evolving landscape of senior
care, exploring the innovations,strategies, and leadership
insights that are shaping the future of the industry.
(01:26):
So whether you are a provider, acaregiver, or industry leader,
this show is here to help you make informed decisions and
create meaningful impact. All right, Today I'm joined by
Andrea Donovan, founder of Chicago Senior Living Advisors.
Andrea is a senior housing consultant, geriatric care
manager, and certified guardian who works exclusively for the
(01:47):
families navigating placement decisions, not the communities
themselves. Her model prioritizes
objectivity, advocacy, and long term fit over quick solutions.
If you've ever wondered what it really means to protect families
from making the wrong decision, Andrea has some powerful
insights to share. So, Andrea, thank you so much
for joining us today and welcometo the show.
(02:09):
Flat Jerry, thanks for having me.
Absolutely. This is one of my favorite
topics to talk about. I think there's so many unique
angles to it, and I love the waythat you're going about helping
families make smarter decisions.You built your practice around
representing the family directlyand not the community.
What made you take that path? Because I know a lot of
(02:30):
placement agents, they do the opposite.
They kind of work, not necessarily work for the
communities, but they definitelyhave a model that incentivizes
the communities rather than the families.
So what made you take that path and what problem were you trying
to solve? The reason I took that path is
because I started in the senior living industry as a marketing
(02:50):
and admissions director for a continuing care retirement
community, and it was Catholic based.
And I know that I'm dating myself here, but at the time I
was getting so many telephone calls, mostly from the children
of the seniors who didn't have any solutions to the senior
living problems that they were trying to solve, that I saw a
(03:14):
niche for a consulting business.And so I quit my job there.
And I started out by touring andevaluating close to 150 senior
communities around the Chicago metropolitan area.
And now that I've been at this for over 20 years, I have
probably been in over 500 of them.
(03:36):
And what I looked at was the cost and the method of payment
that they accepted, the levels of care that they had available,
the staffing, which is the most important component that when a
family is taking a tour, they need to be asking about that.
And then I took copies of the transportation schedules, the
(03:58):
activity schedules, and I also tasted the food at all of these
places so that when a family calls me for my services, based
upon what they tell me, you knowthat their loved one can and
can't do for themselves what their financial realities are
and what their location preference happens to be.
(04:19):
Then that's how I narrow the options for 2-3 or four places
that fit their big picture. And The funny thing was, is that
when I started this business, I had no idea that some of the
free agencies that are out thereactually existed.
I was talking to a colleague at one of the large meetings that
(04:43):
they offer on a monthly basis for the senior living providers.
And she was listening to what I was doing.
And she said to me, well, you know, that's kind of an unusual
arrangement that you have. And I said, well, what do you
mean? And she said most of the
communities are compensating people like yourselves.
(05:04):
They're not charging an hourly fee like you are.
But I just felt that approachingit that way, not even knowing
that there was another fee strapstructure out there was actually
the correct way to do it becauseyou're finding the custom made
option for the person rather than just giving them a bunch of
(05:26):
options and not some guidance. I love that.
I think that's, I totally agree with that methodology.
I think that makes total sense and and because you're working
this different system, what haveyou seen go wrong when families
rely on free placement services that work on Commission?
Well, The thing is, is that I I don't see a lot of guidance
(05:48):
being given with regard to what the options are.
I'm very detailed oriented because I spreadsheet everything
for people and I select things according to the individual's
needs and their finances versus just giving a bunch of options
to people and sending them out to look on their own.
(06:10):
I actually tell people, look, this is what it's going to cost
you with this place. And if you're looking for a
higher level of care, meaning assisted living or skilled
nursing, this is their staffing ratios.
And in the cases of skilled nursing, I actually tell people
how they've done on their inspection from the state on an
(06:33):
annual basis. And I tell people what they've
been written up for so that people know exactly what it is
that, you know, the per place isdeficient in is in before they
even go out to look at the organization.
Yeah, that's one of the biggest things.
People have no clue even where to find that information a lot
of the time. So that's great that you're
(06:53):
putting that out there up front.How do families typically
respond when they realize you'reworking only for them?
I would say that 98% of my clients hire me because I'm not
being driven by a Commission check that's at the end of the
road. They realize that there's
there's no financial gain for mein this whole thing and that
(07:17):
working for them is actually a huge plus.
I want to talk a little bit about the cost of the wrong fit
to. I think that's something that a
lot of families unfortunately experienced.
What are some of the most damaging mistakes families make
when choosing senior living options?
Would say judging a place by itsaesthetics is one of the hugest
(07:39):
mistakes that I see them making.The other thing is, is that they
have to be alerted to the fact that the salespeople are
actually commissioned. Most of the time, if I'm going
out with the family and I'm listening to what the
salesperson is telling them during a tour and I disagree
(08:01):
with what they're saying, I stopped them immediately.
But I find that the biggest mistake that people make is
believing that if they've got somebody who's got a complex
medical situation, a lot of these assisted living
communities have absorbed what the skilled nursing communities
(08:22):
used to do, and they truthfully aren't equipped to handle
anything that's complicated. I know last time we spoke to you
were telling me how you specialize in these complex
cases. What makes a case complex and
what makes you equipped to handle something like that?
OK, so since I've been doing this for 20 years, you know,
(08:45):
there's there's no book of knowledge, you know, about
handling cases that are complex.You know, I kind of just learned
how to do it as I went along. But as I had shared with you
once before, I was working with a couple.
The gentleman had had three kidney transplants and his wife
(09:06):
was getting to a point where shetruthfully needed to be in a
memory care unit and they lived in a well to do suburb in in
Northern Illinois and they needed to move because he was in
a skilled community due to the issues with with this kidney
transplant and he was very proneto UTI's and I was seeing him
(09:32):
get sick constantly. So I was hired on as their care
manager because with her memory issue, she really wasn't capable
of handling everything that he needed to have done for him.
So in a conversation that I was having with his urologist, the
(09:52):
urologist told me hey, you know,he's got 3 kidneys right now and
the third kidney that he has is not functioning at all.
So it would be much better if that kidney were removed and he
could just function with the twokidneys that he still got left
in his body. So they took that kidney out and
(10:16):
I basically arranged for everything from the pre surgery
to talking, you know, with, withhis doctors to even picking up
the body wash that he needed to do the night before the surgery.
So after the surgery was completed, he actually came out
of it very well and I. Noticed he really wasn't prone
(10:40):
to the UTI's anymore so he hatedthe skilled nursing community
that he. Was in, you know, of course you
never meet somebody who's in skilled nursing that says.
I love. It here, excited about it.
Yeah. So he begged me to move him into
assisted living. And I said, you know, I really
(11:00):
don't know if they're equipped to handle that, you know.
And of course his money manager got wind at that.
And he he was paying $17,000 a month for a private room in a
nursing home, you know, and all of a sudden her antenna are
going up and saying, you know, we could, we could lower his
cost of care. And I was like, whoa, wait a
minute. You know, I'm going to select a
(11:21):
couple of places that I think might might be be able to handle
his case. So I went ahead and I made a
spreadsheet of the organizationsthat did a lot of heavy hands on
care, but they were also communities that had a skilled
nursing component within their system.
So I was recommending that they go to a CCRC.
(11:44):
Well, this gentleman was bright enough where he decided.
That. He was going to do some research
on his own and he found an assisted living community that
was in his neighborhood and he said, I want you to check this
one out. And I said, well this is going
to be a big problem because theyhave no skilled nursing there.
(12:06):
So if you need that at some point, you're going to end up
right back here. And I, I said, plus your wife.
Is going to need memory care. They don't have that either, so
I did everything under the sun to make them understand that it
just wasn't a good move for them.
But of course, the care was justa huge amount less than what he
(12:28):
was paying. And so by the pressure that I
got from the money manager and from the members of his family,
I said, well, OK, you can try this.
However, I'm telling you right now that in the long run this is
not going to work for you. So we went on a tour of this
place. The nurse was present who
(12:50):
oversee. The.
Assisted living portion of the community.
And she said yes, we we can deliver his his medications on
time, you know, which is a huge component of his moving there
because he was on one particularmedication that has to be
delivered exactly at four different times during the day.
(13:11):
And while they assured us that they could do that, what
happened in reality was was something that was completely
different. We were also.
Told during this tour that therewas a nurse there 24 hours.
I found out after the fact that the nurse was on call 24 hours
(13:32):
even though I said is there a nurse here physically 24 hours a
day And they said yes. So ultimately this move lasted
all of about four months and there was an expenditure made
not only in moving all of their furniture to this place, you
(13:53):
know, and getting it whipped into shape so that it was
livable for them. And his wife was getting
continuously worse with with thememory issues and they would not
take her into assisted living. They told me point blank they
did not want the liability for her.
So between that and during theirlast month there, there were
(14:16):
four different trips to the emergency room with him
consecutively for four weekends.And So what I did was what he
needed to go to rehab. I sent him to the community
where I felt that they should have gone to in the beginning.
And then his wife had an accident where she had a
suitcase fall on top of her. She was injured and she needed
(14:39):
rehab. So I had them both transferred
to the same place and then I simply made them stay there.
That's definitely complex. I can't believe all of that.
And you had to facilitate all those moves.
And that's got to be difficult to being in a position where you
know, you know what's best, you know you know what's best, but
(15:00):
clients are fighting against youall the way through it.
And often people end up back in skilled nursing anyways, even if
they're trying to find some other solution.
How common is that? You know, if, if I'm handling
the case and it's done appropriately to begin with, it
doesn't happen, You know, I mean, a move from assisted
(15:23):
living to skilled, you know, when the person's health worsens
is one thing. But if it's a bad decision made
by family members and other professionals in the business
who don't have any business getting involved in in a part of
the specialty that's not theirs,that's that's the where the
(15:46):
mistakes are made. When those placements fail, what
does that failure actually look like for the older adult?
What are they experiencing during that whole process?
Well, all right, so when a failure like that does occur
naturally, you know, the person who ends back in skilled nursing
is angry and. A lot of.
(16:07):
Times, you know, he still, he still blames me for leaving them
there, but that's the appropriate level of care that
he needs to be at. And, you know, unfortunately,
all right, so he was already in skilled and then he goes to
assisted living where he couldn't be handled
appropriately. And then he's back at at skilled
(16:29):
nursing. He gets angry and and confused
as to why he's there because he's also got Parkinson's
besides that. So, you know, you end up having
memory issues with that disease too.
And then of course, you've got the family members fighting
about the money. Oh, he can't afford this.
(16:50):
It just it ends up to be a real mess.
But truthfully my opinion is this for some of these assisted
living places to take on something that is completely out
of their. Realm and then somebody does end
up back in skilled nursing. To me, that's a.
Form of elder. Abuse because they're, they're
(17:13):
taking them in temporarily and planting this idea in their head
that they're going to be able tostay there forever and they just
can't, you know, and a lot of times the, the solutions to the
problems that they come up with are often not affordable.
For instance, they, they ask people to hire additional care,
(17:37):
you know, with a home care agency.
So you're talking at the assisted living costs that are
somewhere average $7000 in the state of Illinois, but then to
hire somebody on top of that in the northern suburbs, it's 40 to
$45.00 an hour and those little 40 to $45.00 increments can
(18:02):
really add up. What is the gain by these
communities that are making those choices to kind of sell
people on an idea that's not actually true about, you know,
them being able to prosper and and thrive in a community like
that? I mean, is it financial?
Is it just to boost their census?
And what's the end game? You know what, Jerry, It
absolutely is financial because I can remember when I was back
(18:29):
in that sales position, I was getting tremendous pressure put
on me from the powers it be to keep that place filled.
And I know that I shouldn't admit this, but there were times
when they pressured me so badly that I even took things that
weren't correct. But the fact of the matter is,
(18:53):
the place was the CCRC and they had skilled nursing that
accepted Medicaid. So if somebody came in and it
didn't work out, they could justbe placed the skilled area.
So it wasn't necessarily such a bad thing.
But I can remember with the being a Catholic organization,
(19:15):
one of the sisters there who wasan administrator said to me,
Andrea, she said, I know that you're under a lot of pressure
from from the business people from up above.
But for God's sake, please exercise some common sense.
Those words have always stuck with me whenever I see something
(19:36):
like this happening. So I was on one end of the
spectrum, you know, where I had the pressure.
Being put on me and now, you know, I'm kind of in the driver.
'S seat with the. Family so I can help them do
exactly what's right, but then bottom line is the pressure that
these corporate organizations are are putting on the
(19:59):
salespeople. To keep the place filled is
just, it's tremendous. Would you say it's that's more
significant now than it was in the past?
Is there more pressure now? Yes, absolutely, because don't
forget, I've been doing this for20 years and there weren't as
many of these senior living communities.
(20:21):
Out. There and now there's a memory
care place popping up on every other corner.
And so, you know, you're literally competing with tons of
places, you know, that are rightin your locality.
So I can understand that the pressure that's being put on the
the people who are in the sales position.
(20:43):
But do I agree with some of the things that are being done?
Absolutely not. And do you think a lot of that
ties into the corporatization ofsenior living?
Yes, Yeah. I just find that when I was
first in the business, there wasa lot of compassion and the
resident always came first. Now it's just the numbers game
(21:07):
and the focus is just on keepingthe place filled.
Yeah, someone else I spoke to recently was talking about that
shift that it used to be about the residents and what what's
best for the residents. And then it shifted to what's
best for the staff because staffretention is such a challenging
issue right now that the communities are more focused on
keeping them happy than the residents.
(21:28):
So it's completely shifted that whole culture within the
communities. Not saying every community is
like that but but there are somefor sure.
Well, the biggest part of the problem is, is that the
availability of staff that are qualified ever since the
pandemic occurred has really puta burden on keeping these places
(21:49):
well staffed. So what what I would see as the
norm 1015 years ago and with allof these changes it it's not
even close to the same thing. Assisted living.
The ratio used to be about 8 residents to to one CNA.
(22:09):
Now it's it's way above that. I, I see ratios that are like 15
to 1, even worse than that. There was one place that I went
into where it's 25 to 1. I, I actually, I walked out of
the tour, I cut it very short because I just said, how can you
possibly have one CNA working with 25 different residents?
(22:35):
And that's why I say the most important thing that people need
to ask these places, what is theratio of your staff to your your
residents? And normally I get the stock
answer of, well, we staff according to acuity.
And that's when I say, OK, so that means that you're going to
(22:59):
staff according to exactly what the state requires you to have.
So take a guess, tell me what you think it is, you know, and
and they don't like it when I put them over a barrel like
that. But I can't place a client at
one of these places without knowing that.
No, not with the ratio like that.
I mean, we took my son out of public school because their
(23:21):
student, the teacher to student ratio was like 20 to 1 or 25 to
1. And we were like, that's that's
not enough personal touch and that's education.
That's not caretaking. It's, it's not good.
It's it's not the same story that it was before.
Given your tenure in this industry too, I mean, what
changes have you seen in how families make decisions?
As far as this, the family making decisions, I can tell you
(23:44):
that I see them make decisions based upon aesthetics.
It's not asking the right questions.
If I don't, if I don't go on a tour with a family, I give them
a list of questions and that's what I send them out with.
So a lot of times when families hire me, it's because they don't
know how to make the decision. And so that's why, you know, you
(24:09):
can, you can look on the Internet, which I know a lot of
people do, you know, and you're going to get 1,800,000 returns
when when you hit senior living in Chicago.
But based on my conversation andmy assessment with them, I can
take all those returns and narrow it down to the three
things that work. I have a couple questions.
(24:31):
I guess I just do these in order.
What, what would you say are your top five questions that you
would give somebody as as if they were going to tour on their
own without you? OK, So I always ask, I tell
them, all right, the staffing isone thing when you're looking at
the higher levels of care, I always say get a copy of that
(24:52):
activity schedules and look to see that because don't forget
your loved 1 is going to be moving there on a 24 hour basis
and you want to be. Certain that there's going.
To be something that keeps them involved and and something
that's social. I always tell people that
they've got to eat the food beforehand.
(25:13):
And the reason that I, you're going to laugh, you know, when
I, when I tell you the story. But I actually had a client who
called me and said, Andrea, you know, I've already put a deposit
down on this, this one place, but I have to tell you the
food's rotten. And I said, well, I can tell you
right now that's a reason for not going there.
(25:36):
I said, were you there for a special event or were you there
a day where they're just servingwhatever they're they're giving
to the residents? So he says to me, well, I was
there on a day where it was a special event.
I said, you can't do that. I said, go back there and just
(25:56):
get go on a day for whether you're going to get the regular
food and you get a chance to actually talk with the other
people who live there because you want to know if those are
going to be the people who you want to spend the rest of your
life with. So he he goes back and he does
that and he says the food was still rotten.
(26:18):
So I said to him, you're not going there.
I said, here's their their biggest competitor.
I said, I'll set up an appointment for a tour there and
you're going to go and have lunch.
Well, they went and he absolutely loved it.
And so he ended up pulling his deposit from one place, you
(26:38):
know, and giving it to the other.
And of course the other place found out and my name was Mudd
after that. But I don't really care because
I don't work for them. But that's, that's important.
The other important thing, this isn't necessarily a question.
Well, it is a question. You need to.
Ask if somebody can take a trial, stay there.
(26:59):
And the reason that I tell people to do that is because.
That gives you an opportunity tosee what goes on on a daily
basis and like I mentioned before, see if the other
residents there are the people that you want to spend the rest
of your life with. Do you think that you.
(27:20):
Can adjust to a place that mightbe smaller than than where
you're living. You know, it's and I always tell
people don't go there for less than a month.
I said, because a week is not going to tell you the story of,
of what the big picture is goingto be.
You have to go. For at least a month.
I also tell people this, when somebody is giving you a tour,
(27:42):
you need to analyze how that person is treating you.
And I, I'm talking about the admissions director, because if
they're not treating you with warmth and compassion during
that tour, that's a reflection of what's going to go on for the
rest of the person stay there. And I always tell people that
when they're touring A continuing care retirement
(28:05):
community that even though you might be going in at independent
living, you need to go into the assisted living area and you
need to go into the skilled areaand the memory care so that you
can see where you might eventually end up because there
should be no surprises there. Those are great questions,
(28:26):
insights for sure. One of the other things you
mentioned too, you were saying how there's like a memory care
community popping up on every corner, which I agree with.
How do you think communities should be differentiating
themselves? Because I feel a lot of
decisions nowadays are case driven.
Well, there's a memory care hereand it's 8000 a month, this
one's 7500 a month. We're going to go with this one.
(28:47):
What should be the real motivating factor that people
are looking at when evaluating these communities?
Well, all right, So with memory care most of the time unless a
place offers multiple levels of memory care, they are locked
units. So one of the first things that
I look at besides the staffing which I keep on going back to is
(29:10):
how many out trips they have on a weekly basis.
IE, are they, do they own a bus and are they taking the people
out on, on trips, even if it is a ride or a trip out to a lake
or something like that. You know, I'm not a big believer
in just having somebody locked up in a unit.
(29:32):
It's to me that's, that's very tough.
And this goes back to the important things that you should
be asking. When I suspect that there's an
issue with the place, I always walk in at very odd hours.
You know, like my, my former boss used to be a master at
walking into the skilled nursingarea after midnight or 1:00 in
(29:52):
the morning morning. I've shown up the places in very
bizarre hours just to see what'sgoing on.
But that's if my clients alreadythere.
As a resident, you were asking, you know, you, you've got to
make sure that what they're telling you just isn't a line
because truthfully, a lot of these places just remind me of
(30:14):
big warehouses and they're, they're really not doing
anything. When I asked them what are you
doing to differentiate differentiate yourself between
your your competition, they really can't answer me.
Scary. I see that a lot in my field,
marketing. We're constantly doing
competitor analysis between the communities we help manage and
the ones that are up against them in the market.
(30:37):
And it's pretty daunting how fewactually do anything to
differentiate themselves, even in memory care.
A lot of them don't have a memory care program that they
roll out. They all, if you ask them all,
do you have memory, they're like, yeah, we have memory care,
but what does that entail? What does the program look like?
Can you describe it? And they really don't have much
to to go on to sell you on it. So that's kind of scary.
(30:58):
You know, a decent memory care place is going to have a very
structured schedule so that they've got the residents
involved in activities from minute that they get up until
the minute that they they go to bed at night.
And you know, a lot of that doesn't really exist anymore.
(31:19):
You know, there's, there's a major activity at sometimes at
10, sometimes at 2:00, but I don't, I don't really see them
doing a good job at, at differentiating themselves at
all. I hope the answer to this
question is yes, but do you think most operators really
understand how emotional and high stakes these decisions are
for families? You know, if it's somebody who
(31:40):
has come up through the ranks and understands, you know, maybe
maybe they started out as the activity director and then
eventually, you know, moved through the system and told that
they're the executive director, yes, then I absolutely do
understand. But what I'm finding is that a
(32:01):
lot of the senior living organizations are business
people from outside of the industry, so that they're kind
of saying, well, you know, by our calculation, the admissions
people should be doing X number of tours on a day in order to be
successful. And whereas the admissions
(32:24):
people used to be very involved in not only introducing that
person on the first tour, but they would help them eventually
move in and kind of assist in acclimating the individual and
into getting settled there. Now that's all kind of changed.
(32:44):
And one of the salespeople at one of the what I consider to be
the better. Organizations has been telling
me that things have been changing and the
responsibilities of her helping that person to adjust have
totally been taken away from her.
(33:05):
It's also also become a situation where corporate is
deciding who can be accepted as a resident of the community and
and who can't be. I guess when the sales people
ask why, if certain individual can't be admitted to the
organization, the answer is kindof like, well, that's no longer
(33:27):
your business anymore. So really, it's been fascinating
to watch a lot of these changes.I know a lot of the owners too.
They're really just numbers. People like you were saying.
How many tours, you know, it's aformula for them.
If you work so many tours duringthe day, you, you have X result
from it. It's the same in our space.
It's like if you generate this many leads, this percentage will
(33:48):
convert to tours and that of that, this percentage will
convert to move insurance. And they're constantly looking
at those formulas and that's really all that matters.
Sometimes it's unfortunate they've, they forget the human
factor involved and, and even just the different levels of
care. There's a lot of emotions, and
these are tough decisions for people, and often times they're
not decisions that people necessarily want to make.
(34:09):
Nobody wants to go to memory care, you know, or skilled
nursing, so. No, I remember when I was
involved in that, that part of the process I used to hit.
There was one person who came back five times for for tours
and she cried in front of me every single time.
And finally I said, you know, I've got to do something to
(34:32):
close the sale. So I had her talk to the
resident of the community who was the happiest person there to
this date. I have no idea what was said
during that conversation, but once it took place, the
individual moved in the next day.
So I, I think they're, they're really kind of getting away from
doing that sort of a thing. It's just become more of a, a
(34:55):
thing of turning the numbers to,you know, just to, to make sure
you're, you're making your quota.
Talking a little bit about your work with communities and
despite not being commissioned based, how have you maintained
good relationships with communities?
You know, basically I don't get,I don't get any negative
reactions from these places because they're getting arrested
(35:18):
for free. You know, they're not not having
to pay me a Commission that's worth, you know, one month's
rent or or two months rent or whatever it happens to be.
You know, I, I spoke to one individual who one time said to
me, well, I don't see what the advantage of your kind of an
organization is at all. And I said, well, you got to be
(35:41):
kidding. I said, you're, you're getting
my referrals and I'm not charging you anything.
So that's, that's about the onlynegative reaction that I've ever
gotten. However, some of the salespeople
at the different communities hadtold me that they like the free
organizations because they're being instended by paying a
(36:02):
Commission. So I've heard both sides of the
story. Hey, Andrea's feet free.
We got no problem paying this other person as long as they
bring U.S. business. But technically it's still a
conflict of interest. Yeah, yeah, I would agree with
that. What would you like to see
change about how communities view professionals like you who
(36:22):
advocate from the outside? Like to see them view somebody
like me as giving them prospect that has been vetted so that
it's all the much easier for them to accept that person to
the level of care that I'm recommending for them to me.
(36:43):
Since I'm so meticulous about seeing that person and getting
their medical history and knowing what their finances are.
And I, I always refer my, my clients to places where they
hopefully would never have to move again, that they would see
somebody like me as being an, anasset because I've already done
(37:05):
a lot of the work for them. So I've given them a prospect
that's already been vetted. So I would think viewing
somebody like me would be a positive, you know, versus some
of the other organizations who send over 1000 referrals a week,
but none of them are appropriate.
So who would I rather work with?Me, obviously.
(37:30):
If a if a sales director or executive director were
listening to this, what would you say to help them understand
your value? Well, number one, you, you, I, I
don't cost you anything and I'm giving you a valuable client
who's who's been financially andmedically vetted for that person
to stay with you for a long time.
(37:51):
And, and if, if somebody does stay there and live for a long
time, that's obviously very profitable.
I mean, I realize nobody's goingto be in long term care forever.
But, you know, there are some individuals that have lived at
some of these places for a very long time.
I mean, the downside of working with some of the free
(38:13):
organizations is I understand that they have to stay there for
30 days before the Commission check is being issued.
And to me, given the choice, youknow, I'd rather be paid for my
work than and, and, and do the the placement appropriately
versus just taking the gamble, you know, and, and having the
(38:33):
person not be able to stay. There for 30.
Days and then you get paid nothing.
Everything has positives and negatives.
You know, I've, I've been doing this for 20 years.
I've never even knew that the other types of organizations
existed. But yet I've never changed the
way that I've done things. So it's it's worked for me.
And after all the years of doingthis work, what has been your
(38:56):
biggest personal or professionalinsight?
You know, my biggest personal and professional insight is I'm
going to go back to say I've never changed the way that I,
that I've done things. And I truthfully don't know of
anybody that has ever moved out of the community that I've
placed them at because they justhated it and it didn't work out.
(39:18):
So my, my success ratio is very good.
And I, you know, I can remember when I first started the
business, I was talking to a professional from the home care
agency and, or one of the home care agencies that existed at
the time. And she said to me, well, she
said, you're doing, you're doingthings the right way.
(39:40):
Versus. The way that isn't quite right.
Because you're often walking families through some of these
hardest, some of the hardest decisions they'll ever have to
make. And what keeps you motivated to
keep doing this? You know, the thing that
motivates me to keep doing it isthat I've been successful at it.
You kind of forget a very positive feeling.
I I'll never forget the first person that I ever placed was
(40:06):
was the mother of. Somebody who I needed to move
from assisted living to a skilled nursing community.
The daughter was a teacher and the first time that I met her
and I gave her the recommendation and set her up to
go on the tour, she took out hercheckbook and paid me right
there. So I guess I like the feeling of
(40:27):
the gratitude that I get from the families once the job is
done. There have been the few times,
you know, that I've placed people in non CCRC organizations
where the individual has had to move to a skilled community
because of healthcare issues. And they always come back to me
a second time. So all right, the first portion
(40:49):
of it was finished. Now they need a higher level and
they come back to me to do that part of it.
It, it's something that I may have done the placement 10 years
ago. And it's most of the time it's,
it's fun meeting with the families and it's, it's not the
senior who I'm dealing with. It's always their kid.
(41:10):
And I want to say a number of years back, the kid was always
my age, but now the kids that I'm helping are way younger than
I am. And while I actually thought
that at some point there would be some pull back from the
(41:30):
children not wanting to work with somebody who's in in my age
bracket, it doesn't bother them in the least.
They are so grateful just to have the job done and work with
somebody, you know, who's been doing this for for many years,
that they appreciate all the experience that I've had.
Yeah. Do you want to work with the
surgeon who just came out of Medschool, or do you want to work
(41:53):
with the guy who's been doing itfor 20 years?
What? And that's exactly what it boils
down to. I mean, I just thought that that
people would get so turned off, you know, when they'd see me
standing in their doorway. And it hasn't been like that at
all. As a matter of fact, I'm finding
that the older that I get, the more appreciative people are.
(42:15):
I have kind of a different senseof the whole big picture now
because you have to think of your own future and what you
think would be right for you. And so I have a certain
sensitivity that I can I can share with those families.
Andrew, my last question for you, what kind of impact do you
hope your work leaves behind forthe industry?
(42:35):
Actually hope that there are going to be individuals who will
have a business. Model.
That will be very close to mine.You know, use a little bit of
imagination and help people. Don't be afraid to get out there
and speak your when you feel that something isn't right, when
it's involved with a decision like this, that that's so
(42:57):
important because truthfully, itit could make or break somebody.
So I just, you know, I hope thatthere are people that that will
continue to take more of an advocate's position rather than
what the opposite of the coin isthat's.
A great perspective for sure. Where can our audience go to
learn more about Chicago Senior Living Advisors or connect with
you? OK, you can go to my website
(43:19):
which is Chicago Senior Living advisors.com.
I also have a Facebook page and the best way to get in touch
with me is my cell phone is right on my web page.
And I always return my calls thesame day versus then letting
somebody wait a couple of days because most of the time people
(43:42):
are in crisis and. They need somebody who can act
quickly and and that's me. Great.
Thank you. We'll make sure we put all that
in the show notes for our audience.
So, Andrea, thank you so much for such a great interview and
being so open to answering all these questions.
I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Jerry.
So, OK, so as we wrap up today'sepisode, I want to extend a
(44:04):
heartfelt thank you to Andrea Donovan for joining us and
sharing her candid perspective on what it really means to
advocate for families in this industry.
Andrea, your work cuts through the noise and puts compassion
and clarity front and center, and we're better for it.
So if you want to learn more about Andrea's work, we've
included all of her info on the show notes.
As always, we hope you found this episode insightful and
(44:25):
inspiring. Don't forget to subscribe to our
podcast on your favorite platform and stay tuned for more
episodes where we continue to explore the evolving world of
senior care, covering everythingfrom innovative care models and
leadership strategies to family support, technology and the
future of aging. Also remember that From Leads to
Leases isn't just an audio experience.
We're also a video podcast. So if you want to see the video
(44:47):
versions of our episodes like the one here with Andrea, make
sure to subscribe to our YouTubeor Spotify channels.
I'm Jerry Vinci, CEO of CCR growth.
Thank you for joining us on FromLeads to Leases and please like,
subscribe and share this episodewith anyone who might find it
useful. I'm truly grateful for your time
and attention. Until next time, leave a
strategy and with heart chat with you again soon.
(45:07):
Thanks, Andrea. Thanks, Jerry.
Thanks for listening to from leads to leases.
Are you ready to fill your roomsfaster and increase occupancy?
Visit ccrgrowth.com to learn about our Senior Growth
Innovation Suite, a proven system to generate highly
qualified tour ready leads, accelerate sales and reduce
acquisition costs. Let's connect and turn your
(45:28):
challenges into opportunities. See you next time.
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