February 13, 2025 • 36 mins
Are you ashamed of your porn use? Or are you in a relationship where you feel constantly betrayed by your partner and their porn addiction? If so, you have to listen to this powerful conversation between host, Barbie Moreno, and guest, Craig Perra, about how porn and sex addictions affects the lives of so many people.
Craig Perra, J.D., C.P.C.
Mindful Habit Coaching, LLC
Craig Perra is a world-renowned expert in overcoming compulsive sexual behaviors, sex addiction, and porn addiction. As the founder of The Mindful Habit System, Craig has helped thousands—including Olympians, professional athletes, C-suite executives, religious leaders, and high-achievers from all walks of life—take control of their habits and transform their lives.
Alongside his wife, Michelle, Craig runs the highest-rated sex and porn addiction recovery program in the world. His groundbreaking approach, blending science-backed habit change with deep personal transformation, has set a new standard in addiction recovery.
Craig’s expertise has been featured on The Steve Harvey Show, The Katie Couric Show, A&E, Lifetime Television, and the BBC. Before becoming a sought-after coach and speaker, he was a high-powered attorney and executive advising billion-dollar companies—until his own battle with addiction forced him to confront his demons and build a system that has now helped millions break free.
Now, he’s here to share his wisdom, challenge outdated recovery models, and help you lead all parts of yourself—especially the ones you hate.
Links
Free Training for Men: The Four Transformational Shifts You MUST Make to Break Free From Sex & Porn Addiction: https://mindfulhabithelp.com/free-video-training-craig-perra/
Free Ebook for Spouses of Sex/Porn Addicts: The Spouse Survival Guide
Sex Afflictions & Porn Addictions Podcast
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0ILT9xCM1SxEbJpWUmlF00?si=eD1QL8dgQJmnE4C5yg1R0w
iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/sex-afflictions-porn-addictions/id556373664?mt=2
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/themindfulhabit
Season 2
Unraveling the Mind: From Mental Struggles to Inner Strength.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the From Wounds to Wisdom podcast with
your host, barbie Moreno, wherewe dive into people's past and
discover what wounds theyincurred and how they
transformed those wounds intowisdom to help themselves and
others.
Today we have a very specialguest, craig Parra, who is going
to talk to us about porn andsex addictions and how they
(00:21):
affect the lives of the addictand their loved ones.
So welcome from Wounds toWisdom.
This is your host, barbieMoreno, and I am so excited
today to have Craig Parra withme.
He is the host of SexAddictions and Porn Afflictions
podcast, and today we're goingto talk about the people that
(00:41):
would maybe be guests on hisshow and where all of this comes
from.
Thank you for coming.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Thank you for having me, Barbie.
Look forward to diving in andhaving a great conversation
today.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Absolutely so.
Let's start with the firstquestion Tell me why this
podcast?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Why sex afflictions and porn addictions?
Yes, well, I founded theMindful Habit System 13 years
ago and I work with menstruggling with sex addiction
and porn addiction, drugaddiction, alcoholism you know
all of various forms ofcompulsive behaviors.
And this journey really startedwith my personal colossal
(01:20):
failures, like major, majorfailures, and if it wasn't for
the strength of my wife, I wouldnot be talking to you right now
.
I have gaslit her, lied to her,cheated, had multiple mental
health breakdowns in my life andjust over 14 years ago I had my
(01:43):
worst mental health breakdown,where I was hospitalized after
trying to hurt myself and when Ileft that inpatient facility I
was given a prescription not formedication but for what I was
supposed to do again, and it wasmore therapy and more meetings.
(02:04):
And those are wonderful thingsand I stand on the great
shoulders of the people whosupported me throughout my
lifetime mental health journey.
But here I was at my lowestpoint, despite considerable
effort, investment in time andmoney, and coming out of
(02:24):
impatient I had this crazy ideathat I could build a better
mousetrap in how to help peopleget from compulsivity to great
living.
I like to say the cure is theaggressive pursuit of a great
life Total cliche, but when youlook at all the things you need
to do to be successful and tostay successful, to me that's
(02:47):
the aggressive pursuit of agreat life.
And so I started this journeyfrom this low point, seeking
nontraditional healers.
I became obsessed with habitsand I saw that my executive
background had a lot ofrelevance when I read things
like you don't rise to the levelof your goals, you fall to the
level of your systems.
And over time, this modalitycame to take shape in what I was
(03:13):
doing and where I was finallygetting results.
And it was very early on, andthis is now over 13 years ago.
As taboo as sex and pornaddiction is today, it was even
we were the first couple to goon national TV to talk about it.
My wife and I were on the KatieCouric show Terrifying and the
(03:36):
advice that she got throughoutthe years she found to be not
constructive.
And I saw the gaps and I sawthe holes, and so her and I
launched this podcast many, manyyears ago.
It started anonymously and myfake name was Ed and we started
talking about this problem andthat grew and that grew and that
(03:58):
rose to a place where, like oh,my God.
You know, people are getting alot of value.
I could do this for a living,which was a preposterous idea,
and so the podcast has evolvedsince then.
The business has grown.
Since then Michelle's takenover, you know, running the
operation and I'm doing a lotmore out front.
But yeah, it started, the twoof us putting our lives back
(04:21):
together after getting fired forthe second time and thinking
the world would be better offwithout me and trying to hurt
myself, and so we just werereally passionate about getting
our message out there, ourjourney out there, and then
using that journey to helppeople.
So that's really why thepodcast is there is to help
(04:41):
people.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
You have to be very vulnerable and you also have to
be very in your power to do whatyou're doing.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
That is absolutely true.
Vulnerability is probably themodality, the skillset, but none
of that gets embraced withoutthat connection, and so clients
are able to look at me and say,well, one, he did it, so can I.
But also I don't have to carrythat shame anymore.
(05:13):
I can be honest, maybe for thefirst time in my life.
So that vulnerability iscritical, not just to live a
great life but for clientsuccess.
So it's a win-win.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Right, you have to be able to empathize with what
they're going through, right?
So if you're preaching from amountaintop, they're going to
see you as somebody who doesn'tunderstand, and then it does no
good.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
That's absolutely right and you know there are a
few like I often bring abusiness mindset to some of my
problems, because businesseshave gotten really good at
solving problems.
Something that they haven'tthat to do, that they haven't
personally done or haven'tpersonally, you know, led the
(06:05):
execution of that, of that,whatever that project is, you
wouldn't do it now.
That doesn't mean a therapistor a coach for that matter, who
hasn't been through it can't beincredibly valuable.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
But if the coach happens to be great at what he
does and is vulnerable, you knowthat's a win-win well, and
that's me right, like that's whyI have this show, from wounds
to wisdom, because you gothrough all of these various
different things and can youshift?
How did you shift?
And then, what tools can youpass on to other people?
And the beautiful thing is thatthere are so many of us and we
(06:38):
all have various different tools, and so somebody can find
whatever they need through apodcast like yours, a podcast
like mine, coaching like yours,coaching like mine.
I would love to know do youhave numbers on how many people
I would imagine majority of itare men, but I don't want to be
biased have a sex addiction or aporn addiction?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Well, there was a recent statistic that came out
and you have to be careful withall of these self-reported type
studies.
I know that in one major study,53% of religious leaders were
struggling with porn, 67% ofyouth leaders were struggling
(07:22):
with.
You know, it's not just porn,it's the lying about it, the
shame, the self-esteem, and whenyou think about Barbie, the
sexually saturated society thatwe live in, a man can't spend
more than 10 minutes on TikTokwithout getting the most
effective titillating, desirablethirst traps that touch, you
(07:46):
know, deep into thatevolutionary drive, that wiring
for visual stimulation.
Back in the old days you usedto have to drive to the
bookstore right in the shadehave a black bag, right, you
walk out with a black bag ofshame walk out with a black bag
and hope no one saw you.
Now it's next to you and men andwomen, you know, but the
(08:07):
statistics are, men strugglewith this more than women, but
the numbers of women areskyrocketing as well and you
know they're wired visually inmy field.
(08:27):
It's every man's battle and itis certainly every man's battle
to be a sexually healthy man ofintegrity.
In this day and age, when youcan get a fake ai girlfriend and
have some of the most in-depth,deep conversations and that's
getting ready to go to video.
It's going to look like justlike I'm talking to you now.
Right, people are losingthemselves what are the
technology?
sorry no, no, I just they'relosing themselves in the
(08:47):
technology.
Um, in in, in, you know,unhealthy sexual gratification,
uh, and it's normalized, it's,you know.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
So it's a, it's a really, really impacting
marriages in a significant waywell and also it's, um, actually
actually celebrated rightthrough the ways that we see
celebrities.
But what are they?
When people have this addiction, what are they looking for?
Because any addiction, you'relooking for something right,
Like there was a while I drankway too much alcohol for my own
(09:17):
good and I was looking to numball of the stress of the day and
just numb.
So what are you?
What are people looking for?
And I'm sure it's different foreverybody, but in general, is
there something that they'relooking for?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, it is general, and I can speak to the men who
cheat prostitutes, strip clubs.
While the sex is a factor, whatthey're looking for is
significance.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, be validated.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Attention to be desired, to be validated.
The reward, the conflict-free.
You know, nature of it, youknow, and because of their
ability to compartmentalize,they can put you know wife and
family.
They'll even justify how thisbehavior may even be helping.
(10:07):
As crazy as that sounds, thejustification runs deep For the
porn guys, the guys who becomeaddicted to pornography.
They are numbing, coping andescaping from stress, anxiety,
fear, depression and lowself-esteem.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
And those things can be done through other things
like video gaming right yes umdrinking drugs, obviously um
pure avoidance.
Yeah that's right and and moreand more becoming more and more
common, so is this addictionbecoming more and more common oh
, it's exploding.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
it's exploding and we're know, maybe a few years
ago, because I advertise onGoogle, so we know.
You know what words people aresearching for Technology
addiction, video game addiction,you know even gambling.
Look at the proliferation ofgambling now without realizing
(11:01):
how much fun you could be havingbetting your hard-earned money
on a game where it isundoubtedly you are going to
lose in the long run.
That's how it works.
So, it is exploding.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
How did she not leave you?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Well, first, in this work to my advantage, she could
have left me, but she believedshe couldn't because I was such
in an acute mental healthdistress to the point where my
psychiatrist said either youwalk in there right now from
this, from this meeting, fromthis session that we're having
(11:42):
right now, either you go therevoluntarily or I'm going to have
you picked up.
I'm going to 5150 you.
So I went and I was theprovider.
She was a stay at home mom.
She hadn't worked in over adecade, 15, 17 years, maybe
longer, I forget the math andher initial mission was to get
(12:05):
me back on my feet, get me backin a job.
Get me back on my feet, get meback in a job so she wouldn't be
screwed.
It was self-preservation in thebeginning, and what I said to
myself was that every momentthat I am in her presence, I'm
going to do everything in mypower to show her that I can
(12:26):
change, that I can learn, that Ican grow, and that's know.
That's what I did.
We just celebrated 26 years.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Congratulations, I would imagine.
So one of the rules I live byis it's not personal, right?
So your story, your affliction,your, your, your pain, it was.
If she looks at it from it'snot personal.
It has nothing to do with her.
It's not her failure, right?
It's not her.
She couldn't have donesomething different.
It all has to do with 100%,with what you're going through.
(12:55):
It doesn't belong to her.
Where did it start?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
That started very, very early.
There was almost.
I perceived it as a detachmentshe, she doesn't she but it felt
like a detachment in the momentand, because I'm a little
narcissist and a littleborderline, that was like, oh
shit, this dynamic that we usedto have isn't there anymore.
(13:21):
I better up my game.
But what she did was, veryearly on, there was something
that clicked in her where sherealized that this isn't about
me.
I am married to a mentally illhusband.
Right, my husband has seriousmental health issues.
Look at what's happening, right.
(13:42):
And that, Barbie, that messageis the message.
That lesson is the lesson thatevery partner has to get to if
they want to be healthy longterm.
And it is a difficult messageto deliver.
It can be received asinvalidating, as blaming, and so
(14:06):
we've had to come up over theyears with a you know a path to
bring people to that realizationon your journey.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Where did it start, like?
Where did the addiction startfor you was and and this might
be too personal, but oftentimesI find that people who have sex
addictions, porn addictions, um,or you know, if it's a female
who's drawn to somebody who hasthese addictions, is generally
because there's childhood trauma.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Yeah, yeah.
So my ACE score, my adversechildhood trauma score.
There's 10 categories.
I'm a, you know, six and a halfto a seven and things start to
get ugly from an outcomeperspective at two or three,
four.
Yeah, to get ugly from anoutcome perspective at two or
(14:56):
three, four.
And so, on one hand lived ablessed, privileged childhood.
I always had food, shelter,clothing, parents who prioritize
education, extracurricularactivities, parents who did the
best that they possibly couldunder the circumstances.
But I was touched by an olderneighborhood boy, cloaked that
(15:18):
with religious shame and theother trauma within the family
dynamic, which is the only thingI don't talk about publicly
because my parents are stillalive, and I've chosen to focus
on the positive and honor myfamily's legacy.
My father is a coach.
(15:38):
He's in the New England CoachesHall of Fame, the Rhode Island
Coaches Hall of Fame.
I can either honor that legacyor blame, blame, blame, blame,
blame, blame, blame, and there'sa fair amount of that to go
around.
But there was a lot of trauma.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Blame, blame, right, and there's a fair amount of
that to go around, but there wasa lot of trauma, and so this is
something that obviously leadsinto some sort of addiction,
like most addictions have Right,and then do you have children.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I do.
I have two, a 21-year-old and a19-year-old, and two A rule
maker and a rule breaker.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Always one and the other.
I have both myself um.
Did this affect them?
Did they know?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
um, they were very, very young.
My daughter was five and my sonwas, uh, nine, and so I'm gonna
answer that question, astempted as I am to say it didn't
affect them, knowing what Iknow about childhood development
(16:36):
, right, even though theyweren't aware.
I had anger issues.
Right, you were depressed, Iwas unkind to their mother, I
blamed her for our problems, Iworked like a fiend, right,
everything was work, work andescape, work and escape, work
and escape.
So I'm certain the answer isyes, and more so for my daughter
(17:01):
than my son.
And so what we have, you know,continued to do is to have open
and honest, vulnerableconversations about mental
health, no different than youtalk about a sprained elbow.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Right, yes, and that's amazing because it's
still not spoken about like asprained ankle, right?
It's still taboo in a lot ofpeople's houses.
It's still considered weak in alot of people's houses,
definitely.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, frowned upon you know.
Stop you know.
For guys, stop being a you knowwhat you know.
Suck it up, you know, deal withit.
Stop blaming a you know whatyou know.
Uh, um, suck it up, you know,deal with it.
Stop blaming, you know, and and.
While there is a big blamingcomponent in a lot of therapy
today, obviously the goal is toget beyond that and so your
(17:49):
modality, how you help peopleget beyond that.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Because we go from wounds to wisdom.
So we go from the place wherewe blame, from the place where
we're the victim, to the placewhere we now have our own power.
We sit in our seat of power andwe also help empower others.
So tell us about your modalityand how you do that.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Sure, sure.
And my modality came from therealization that if I looked at
the work that I had done intreatment, 90% of it to 95% was
problem centric.
And I drove the agenda and Ihad, by contrast, because of my
(18:31):
executive roles at big billiondollar companies who had you
know these bottomless trainingbudgets, executive roles at big
billion dollar companies who hadyou know these bottomless
training budgets I wouldcontrast that with a leadership
development program and wouldhad you know metrics,
deliverables, milestones,developmental milestones, et
cetera, et cetera.
And I wanted to bring thatperspective, that leadership,
(18:55):
high performance perspective,into my environment.
So one of the first things thatI have clients do is articulate
not just their direction andpurpose.
The coaching space is litteredwith, for good reason, you know,
direction and purpose typeexercises Because of my systems
background.
How are you going to keep thatalive?
Right, how do you make surethat this doesn't die?
(19:17):
And even though it's boring,even though it isn't sexy, even
though you know everybody wantsthe deep stuff, if you don't
have that plan you're nevergoing to live.
So, direction and purpose, westart with direction and purpose
.
Then there's this riskmanagement exercise which says
hey, when are you mostvulnerable?
What are you going to do aboutit management?
exercise which says, hey, whenare you most vulnerable?
(19:38):
What are you going to do aboutit?
But where things getinteresting for clients is when,
instead of identifying all ofthe bad parts of their addiction
because every addiction programyou go into one of the first
exercises.
What is the cost of thataddiction?
How bad does this get if youkeep going?
And that's leading from a placeof fear, albeit it's an
important perspective.
But my clients already knowthat I have them identify the
(20:02):
good parts of their behavior,meaning what needs is this
behavior meeting?
Because I want them focusedvery, very early on.
Like we talked earlier, thisbehavior is meeting very
important needs and if you don'tunderstand what those needs are
, you're never going to getthose needs met proactively.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
So I'll pause there and there's three more important
components that I'm happy toshare with you, but just to see
if you have any questions aboutthat, yeah, I mean so, not
necessarily the modality, buthow do you bring back the
intimacy in your relationshipafter what would feel like to
most people a betrayal like that?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Oh, a profound betrayal.
And it's why our program weinclude the support for the
spouse, Barbie, because ifyou've got someone devastated,
broken and betrayed, and I don'tcare how much emotional
intelligence the guy accumulates, I don't care how much
emotional intelligence the guyaccumulates, right that that
those wounds need to be treated.
So, so, so we, we, we try, we,we, we treat both the.
(21:02):
I like to say you can't givewhat you don't have, Right?
And most of my clients, some ofthem being some of the most
successful people on the planet,professional athletes, people
in the public eye, people whohave lives that we could only
dream of, deep down inside theyhate themselves.
So that intimacy, if you will,has to start from within before
(21:27):
you can give that to someoneelse.
And in my clients, both the menand the women, those walls are
so deep.
Those walls are the reason forthe distance that exists in the
relationship in the first place.
So, understanding theprotective why do we put up
walls to protect, Understandingthe protective nature of those
(21:49):
walls, the origin story, thefamily of origin, the childhood
stuff, and then coming up with away to meet each other at that
conflict point, when each personis dysregulated, and we call it
, the emotional safety exercise,one of the most important
exercises in the program.
Where do you feel safe?
How does it make you feel?
Where don't you feel safe?
(22:11):
How does it make you feel andwhat do you want your partner to
help you in that moment ofdysregulation?
How are you going to worktogether?
Because you're never going toget rid of conflict in a
relationship.
Now, when that conflict issaturated or infected by those
deep wounds.
You know, safety is the mostimportant word, probably in my
(22:32):
vocabulary.
I used to think it was love,but you can't have that unless
you feel safe.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Agreed and you say that you ask the question.
How does this make you feel?
What I have learned is thatthere are many people who don't
know how they feel.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, so then you have to teach them how to
recognize what their feelingsare.
So it's a very deep process.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
A deep process in you know it's an identity journey.
You know who you are, who doyou want to be, what belief
systems are necessary to tosupport that identity, what
actions are necessary toreinforce that identity?
Like your bicep stops gettingstrong if you start doing curls
(23:17):
Right.
And I realized that, barbie,because there's so much out
there about identity.
It's important, it's thedeepest level of change, and all
of that's true.
But one of the questions Iasked myself that I didn't see
answered out there is what doyou do about it?
And so this notion ofreflecting it within your field
of vision, sharing it with yourallies, accountability, partners
(23:38):
, and doing things, believingthings, and having some record
of that somewhere that you cananchor back to when you're in
those low points, again, it'snot sexy, it's practical, but
identity fades.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Absolutely.
It's practical, but.
But identity fades absolutely,and it I mean your identity, if
you do the work, should faderight, because we're not.
We're not what we do for aliving, we're not who admires us
, we're not any of those things.
That's just how we, that's howwe identify ourselves, because
we're lacking inside that'sright and that that it that I.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
I put that in the advanced category, at least the
way I structure my programacceptance, because in the
beginning, especially whenpeople in crisis, I don't want
to do this, so I have to do that.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
And then we get to my favorite piece of advice, which
is related to what you'retalking about.
What you're talking about,lower the bars, one that that's
up there, you know, kaizen goals, but the other one is do
nothing.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
You don't have to do anything because you're
dysregulated right now.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Right and people want to because they want to fix it.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
They want to fix it and it's uncomfortable to sit in
the uncomfortable Dare, I quoteDisney it's learning how to let
go.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah, like you can do .
That's a skill, that'ssomething you can develop.
You can sit in that discomfort.
And the irony is because thatwhich you resist persist.
The irony is your capacity tosit in that discomfort makes
that discomfort go quicker.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yes, it dissipates quicker, absolutely Because
you're not now focused on it,because you're not trying to fix
it.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Love that.
Let's talk to the women whojust basically say they're
married to a man or they're in arelationship with a man and he
is watching porn and he is goingto, occasionally with his
friends, the strip clubs, andthis really bothers the woman.
She feels like it is a betrayalto her.
Most women are going to say youcan't do that, they're just
(25:34):
going to order them.
You can't do that.
But we all know that you cansay that to somebody, but nobody
knows what you're really doingin your own time, in your own
space and most likely, if yousay you can't watch porn,
they're not going to listen toyou.
They're just going to hide itmore, right?
So so what's the solution tothat?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah, it is standing why you believe it's bad.
You know we're living in aninteresting time because and
it's one of the big cognitivedistortions in our time and I'm
speaking for my clients only, soyou know I know there's
exceptions to every rule, butevery one of them there is a man
(26:13):
who, in some capacity, has beenengaging in some behavior and
lying about it since he was achild and has continued in
secret.
I'm not discounting the harm,we're not talking about that now
.
We're just this, this reality.
Then we can speak to pornspecifically, and then on, and a
(26:34):
culture of do it, go get her,you know, get the girl, you know
, go have sex right and then onthe other side you've got but my
clients, um, shamed sexuallysometimes, uh, touched
inappropriately, um, not wiredvisually, not raised in a
culture of pornography, can'teven fathom, can't even fathom
(26:56):
why someone would do this, whichwhich is part of that, that
betrayal right, they can't evenfathom.
So if you get two peopleexperiencing very different
lives and and the partner saysporn is cheating, we'll talk,
just speak.
Speak to that for a second.
The guy says it's not, becausethey're defining cheating
differently.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
And what happens is when the guy shuts up and starts
listening and hopefully hispartner can get to a place.
Here's why I think it'scheating, I think it's unhealthy
for the marriage.
I think that when you'redirecting your sexual energy to
someone else, that weakens thebond, and when you lie about it,
(27:39):
that makes me feel betrayed andit hurts me tremendously.
It makes me feel unattractive.
Right, I can never compete withthat.
It destroys me.
And so there's a space wherethe guy goes, goes, and, by the
way, there's ample data tosupport every single thing that
(27:59):
she's saying.
Right again, not for everybody,for the my clients, um.
And then the guy is like oh, Inever thought about it from that
perspective.
I was socialized, culturized,raised.
Um, you know that your deepestwound happens to be like I've
done that more than I brush myteeth.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Like that's literally the frequency.
Sometimes, barbie, some guysrealize cause they didn't take
care of their teeth in theirtwenties or they didn't brush
when they were young and theythink about, like we've got the
oldest and most impactful habitis causing this deep wound and
if men can get away from it'snot cheating, it is cheating.
It's a terrible argument andit's one that they're always
(28:44):
going to lose.
So they should get curious onwhy their partner thinks it's
cheating and why you have suchdifferent definitions.
And if your partner is able toarticulate that, because it's
hard when you're angry, whenyou're hurt and you're betrayed,
you know unpacking that.
Why do I think this way?
Because I know other peoplewatch porn together.
(29:05):
I know, um, you know it's likethe, like the, that makes more
money than every sports teamthat ever existed, every league
right and so and he's been doingit since he was a kid, let me,
let me.
And then then they realize, likeback to the point you made
earlier like Whoa, this isn'tabout me, this doesn't mean he
(29:25):
doesn't love me, right, causehe's the same guy who'd push you
out of a way in a moving carand get hit and risk his life to
save his children.
Same person, right and so whenthe guy asks those questions and
the partner is able toarticulate that reason, it
becomes a really powerfulopportunity to say, hey, let's
(29:49):
reflect on the literature.
It does say that when couplesthere's a study, barbie, that
someone wrote I wish I knew thename and the beginning of the
study says something to theeffect of we don't care about
love, language, attachment,style, I feel language,
non-violent communication.
When husband and wife aredirecting that energy towards
each other and both are presentfor that experience, their lives
(30:12):
are significantly better, right?
No?
Speaker 1 (30:15):
matter how they resolve conflict there has to be
respect for each other so trueyeah, I mean without respect you
have nothing.
I mean you have to have trust,but you have to start with
respect, um, because I wouldimagine a lot of that um comes
from like I was asking earlier,like why do men do it and it?
I have learned through a lot ofmy talking with people that
(30:38):
oftentimes men don't feel likethey are appreciated either,
right, and so when you don'tfeel like you're appreciated,
you don't feel like you'rerespected, then you're going to
turn to something else.
That's just human nature,especially if you're not
educated on how to use tools todo something better.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Inside.
Every man is a king or a fool.
The one you get is the one youtalk to, and we could apply that
to everybody.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Right.
Love that, love that saying.
One final question.
I have a son.
How do I, how do I raise my sonto be a healthy, sexual male
who has healthy ideas?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah, talk to him.
What would you talk to himabout?
Speaker 1 (31:19):
But what do you talk to them about?
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Talk to them about your experience, the desire to
prioritize physical health,mental health, spiritual health,
(31:52):
where there's a fourth one thatoften gets overlooked and when
it is brought up, it's around.
Don't do that, you're going toburn in hell and you're going to
get a disease and you're goingto die.
Shame, shame.
And so it forces us, as parents, to what are our values around
it.
What do we want them to be andhow do we communicate them at an
age-appropriate way to theirchild?
Now, that's beyond my bailiwick.
(32:14):
So you know finding the rightwords for each developmental
stage, but the moreconversations the better.
This isn't you, you know it's.
These kids have it tougher thanwe've ever had, and it's almost
, and it's tough finding thatage, but he is going to get
(32:34):
exposed to pornography and heand you have to instill in him
why, as titillating as it is, asexciting as it is for that
teenage hormonal developmentalbrain and how normalized it is
now as young as 11, in caseseven earlier, my younger clients
were talking exposed at eightyears old.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Why that incredibly exciting, titillating thing can
consume you?
Because this part of us isreally powerful.
It's a really powerful forceand what we've learned?
When that energy is goingtowards a partner, when you're
ready, you're going to createmagic.
When it's going this way,you're going to lead to a life
of loneliness, low self-esteem,poor coping strategies,
(33:20):
completely corrupted sexuality.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Right, so they're going to be exposed, like you
said, to porn, right, and so youhave no choice with that.
That's just the way it is atthis point.
What, in your opinion, is ahealthy, a healthy sex like?
What does a healthy male looklike sexually at a teenage,
preteen stage?
(33:43):
What does that look like?
Because you can't control thefact that they're I mean, it
doesn't matter if his system'scompletely locked down at home.
His friend's going to haveaccess to something, right?
So as a parent, you don't wantto shame them.
You know that they're going tohave access to stuff.
So what is it?
Is it normal for them to havethese desires and then you allow
them to have these desires?
(34:03):
Is it not normal for them tohave these desires?
I mean, I'm just trying to look.
How do I parent my son?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah, very normal to have these desires, barbie, but
one of the things I've learnedas a coach is to stay in my lane
and this is outside it.
This is an area that you know.
There are people out there whocan help you, you know, define
what that healthy sexuality is.
You know, for example, inChristian homes they may be
(34:32):
anti-masturbation andnon-Christian homes they'd be
more tolerant of masturbation.
The problem with theanti-masturbation is he's going
to do it anyway.
The data is like unequivocal.
Every guy knows it, everyfather knows it.
Stop pretending, right.
So you're going to talk aboutit and you're going to say, hey,
you know this, there's a costto all.
You know all the good thingsabout it and um, but you know
(34:53):
that that that depends a lot onthe family's belief systems and
goals you know with the childand, as you said, that just the
idea.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
To me it was like, well, just at least not shaming
If there's nothing else that youcan do outside of obviously
communicating is not bringingshame into anything, because
shame just creates people toshut down and think that they're
bad and then they have to hide.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
And the root cause, barbie, of every client that
I've ever worked with is a deepand profound lack of love for
self, and there's always a shamecomponent to that.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
So always making sure they love themselves as much as
possible.
Correct I love that we aregoing to end, so appreciate you.
Tell us how we can watch yourpodcast and learn more about
your services.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Sure, if you can find my podcast Sex Afflictions and
Porn Addictions, it is whereevery major podcast is found.
You can search my name, craigPera P-E-R-R-A, and that'll
bring it to you.
We'll put some links in thedescription below If you want to
visit the websitemindfulhabithelpcom.
Mindfulhabithelpcom.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Beautiful, love it.
Thank you for coming on theshow Appreciate you Welcome.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Thanks for having me, barbie.
Okay, bye.
Welcome to the From Wounds to Wisdom podcast with
your host, barbie Moreno, wherewe dive into people's past and
discover what wounds theyincurred and how they
transformed those wounds intowisdom to help themselves and
others.
Today we have a very specialguest, craig Parra, who is going
to talk to us about porn andsex addictions and how they
(00:21):
affect the lives of the addictand their loved ones.
So welcome from Wounds toWisdom.
This is your host, barbieMoreno, and I am so excited
today to have Craig Parra withme.
He is the host of SexAddictions and Porn Afflictions
podcast, and today we're goingto talk about the people that
(00:41):
would maybe be guests on hisshow and where all of this comes
from.
Thank you for coming.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Thank you for having me, Barbie.
Look forward to diving in andhaving a great conversation
today.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Absolutely so.
Let's start with the firstquestion Tell me why this
podcast?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Why sex afflictions and porn addictions?
Yes, well, I founded theMindful Habit System 13 years
ago and I work with menstruggling with sex addiction
and porn addiction, drugaddiction, alcoholism you know
all of various forms ofcompulsive behaviors.
And this journey really startedwith my personal colossal
(01:20):
failures, like major, majorfailures, and if it wasn't for
the strength of my wife, I wouldnot be talking to you right now
.
I have gaslit her, lied to her,cheated, had multiple mental
health breakdowns in my life andjust over 14 years ago I had my
(01:43):
worst mental health breakdown,where I was hospitalized after
trying to hurt myself and when Ileft that inpatient facility I
was given a prescription not formedication but for what I was
supposed to do again, and it wasmore therapy and more meetings.
(02:04):
And those are wonderful thingsand I stand on the great
shoulders of the people whosupported me throughout my
lifetime mental health journey.
But here I was at my lowestpoint, despite considerable
effort, investment in time andmoney, and coming out of
(02:24):
impatient I had this crazy ideathat I could build a better
mousetrap in how to help peopleget from compulsivity to great
living.
I like to say the cure is theaggressive pursuit of a great
life Total cliche, but when youlook at all the things you need
to do to be successful and tostay successful, to me that's
(02:47):
the aggressive pursuit of agreat life.
And so I started this journeyfrom this low point, seeking
nontraditional healers.
I became obsessed with habitsand I saw that my executive
background had a lot ofrelevance when I read things
like you don't rise to the levelof your goals, you fall to the
level of your systems.
And over time, this modalitycame to take shape in what I was
(03:13):
doing and where I was finallygetting results.
And it was very early on, andthis is now over 13 years ago.
As taboo as sex and pornaddiction is today, it was even
we were the first couple to goon national TV to talk about it.
My wife and I were on the KatieCouric show Terrifying and the
(03:36):
advice that she got throughoutthe years she found to be not
constructive.
And I saw the gaps and I sawthe holes, and so her and I
launched this podcast many, manyyears ago.
It started anonymously and myfake name was Ed and we started
talking about this problem andthat grew and that grew and that
(03:58):
rose to a place where, like oh,my God.
You know, people are getting alot of value.
I could do this for a living,which was a preposterous idea,
and so the podcast has evolvedsince then.
The business has grown.
Since then Michelle's takenover, you know, running the
operation and I'm doing a lotmore out front.
But yeah, it started, the twoof us putting our lives back
(04:21):
together after getting fired forthe second time and thinking
the world would be better offwithout me and trying to hurt
myself, and so we just werereally passionate about getting
our message out there, ourjourney out there, and then
using that journey to helppeople.
So that's really why thepodcast is there is to help
(04:41):
people.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
You have to be very vulnerable and you also have to
be very in your power to do whatyou're doing.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
That is absolutely true.
Vulnerability is probably themodality, the skillset, but none
of that gets embraced withoutthat connection, and so clients
are able to look at me and say,well, one, he did it, so can I.
But also I don't have to carrythat shame anymore.
(05:13):
I can be honest, maybe for thefirst time in my life.
So that vulnerability iscritical, not just to live a
great life but for clientsuccess.
So it's a win-win.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Right, you have to be able to empathize with what
they're going through, right?
So if you're preaching from amountaintop, they're going to
see you as somebody who doesn'tunderstand, and then it does no
good.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
That's absolutely right and you know there are a
few like I often bring abusiness mindset to some of my
problems, because businesseshave gotten really good at
solving problems.
Something that they haven'tthat to do, that they haven't
personally done or haven'tpersonally, you know, led the
(06:05):
execution of that, of that,whatever that project is, you
wouldn't do it now.
That doesn't mean a therapistor a coach for that matter, who
hasn't been through it can't beincredibly valuable.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
But if the coach happens to be great at what he
does and is vulnerable, you knowthat's a win-win well, and
that's me right, like that's whyI have this show, from wounds
to wisdom, because you gothrough all of these various
different things and can youshift?
How did you shift?
And then, what tools can youpass on to other people?
And the beautiful thing is thatthere are so many of us and we
(06:38):
all have various different tools, and so somebody can find
whatever they need through apodcast like yours, a podcast
like mine, coaching like yours,coaching like mine.
I would love to know do youhave numbers on how many people
I would imagine majority of itare men, but I don't want to be
biased have a sex addiction or aporn addiction?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Well, there was a recent statistic that came out
and you have to be careful withall of these self-reported type
studies.
I know that in one major study,53% of religious leaders were
struggling with porn, 67% ofyouth leaders were struggling
(07:22):
with.
You know, it's not just porn,it's the lying about it, the
shame, the self-esteem, and whenyou think about Barbie, the
sexually saturated society thatwe live in, a man can't spend
more than 10 minutes on TikTokwithout getting the most
effective titillating, desirablethirst traps that touch, you
(07:46):
know, deep into thatevolutionary drive, that wiring
for visual stimulation.
Back in the old days you usedto have to drive to the
bookstore right in the shadehave a black bag, right, you
walk out with a black bag ofshame walk out with a black bag
and hope no one saw you.
Now it's next to you and men andwomen, you know, but the
(08:07):
statistics are, men strugglewith this more than women, but
the numbers of women areskyrocketing as well and you
know they're wired visually inmy field.
(08:27):
It's every man's battle and itis certainly every man's battle
to be a sexually healthy man ofintegrity.
In this day and age, when youcan get a fake ai girlfriend and
have some of the most in-depth,deep conversations and that's
getting ready to go to video.
It's going to look like justlike I'm talking to you now.
Right, people are losingthemselves what are the
technology?
sorry no, no, I just they'relosing themselves in the
(08:47):
technology.
Um, in in, in, you know,unhealthy sexual gratification,
uh, and it's normalized, it's,you know.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
So it's a, it's a really, really impacting
marriages in a significant waywell and also it's, um, actually
actually celebrated rightthrough the ways that we see
celebrities.
But what are they?
When people have this addiction, what are they looking for?
Because any addiction, you'relooking for something right,
Like there was a while I drankway too much alcohol for my own
(09:17):
good and I was looking to numball of the stress of the day and
just numb.
So what are you?
What are people looking for?
And I'm sure it's different foreverybody, but in general, is
there something that they'relooking for?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, it is general, and I can speak to the men who
cheat prostitutes, strip clubs.
While the sex is a factor, whatthey're looking for is
significance.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, be validated.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Attention to be desired, to be validated.
The reward, the conflict-free.
You know, nature of it, youknow, and because of their
ability to compartmentalize,they can put you know wife and
family.
They'll even justify how thisbehavior may even be helping.
(10:07):
As crazy as that sounds, thejustification runs deep For the
porn guys, the guys who becomeaddicted to pornography.
They are numbing, coping andescaping from stress, anxiety,
fear, depression and lowself-esteem.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
And those things can be done through other things
like video gaming right yes umdrinking drugs, obviously um
pure avoidance.
Yeah that's right and and moreand more becoming more and more
common, so is this addictionbecoming more and more common oh
, it's exploding.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
it's exploding and we're know, maybe a few years
ago, because I advertise onGoogle, so we know.
You know what words people aresearching for Technology
addiction, video game addiction,you know even gambling.
Look at the proliferation ofgambling now without realizing
(11:01):
how much fun you could be havingbetting your hard-earned money
on a game where it isundoubtedly you are going to
lose in the long run.
That's how it works.
So, it is exploding.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
How did she not leave you?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Well, first, in this work to my advantage, she could
have left me, but she believedshe couldn't because I was such
in an acute mental healthdistress to the point where my
psychiatrist said either youwalk in there right now from
this, from this meeting, fromthis session that we're having
(11:42):
right now, either you go therevoluntarily or I'm going to have
you picked up.
I'm going to 5150 you.
So I went and I was theprovider.
She was a stay at home mom.
She hadn't worked in over adecade, 15, 17 years, maybe
longer, I forget the math andher initial mission was to get
(12:05):
me back on my feet, get me backin a job.
Get me back on my feet, get meback in a job so she wouldn't be
screwed.
It was self-preservation in thebeginning, and what I said to
myself was that every momentthat I am in her presence, I'm
going to do everything in mypower to show her that I can
(12:26):
change, that I can learn, that Ican grow, and that's know.
That's what I did.
We just celebrated 26 years.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Congratulations, I would imagine.
So one of the rules I live byis it's not personal, right?
So your story, your affliction,your, your, your pain, it was.
If she looks at it from it'snot personal.
It has nothing to do with her.
It's not her failure, right?
It's not her.
She couldn't have donesomething different.
It all has to do with 100%,with what you're going through.
(12:55):
It doesn't belong to her.
Where did it start?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
That started very, very early.
There was almost.
I perceived it as a detachmentshe, she doesn't she but it felt
like a detachment in the momentand, because I'm a little
narcissist and a littleborderline, that was like, oh
shit, this dynamic that we usedto have isn't there anymore.
(13:21):
I better up my game.
But what she did was, veryearly on, there was something
that clicked in her where sherealized that this isn't about
me.
I am married to a mentally illhusband.
Right, my husband has seriousmental health issues.
Look at what's happening, right.
(13:42):
And that, Barbie, that messageis the message.
That lesson is the lesson thatevery partner has to get to if
they want to be healthy longterm.
And it is a difficult messageto deliver.
It can be received asinvalidating, as blaming, and so
(14:06):
we've had to come up over theyears with a you know a path to
bring people to that realizationon your journey.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Where did it start, like?
Where did the addiction startfor you was and and this might
be too personal, but oftentimesI find that people who have sex
addictions, porn addictions, um,or you know, if it's a female
who's drawn to somebody who hasthese addictions, is generally
because there's childhood trauma.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Yeah, yeah.
So my ACE score, my adversechildhood trauma score.
There's 10 categories.
I'm a, you know, six and a halfto a seven and things start to
get ugly from an outcomeperspective at two or three,
four.
Yeah, to get ugly from anoutcome perspective at two or
(14:56):
three, four.
And so, on one hand lived ablessed, privileged childhood.
I always had food, shelter,clothing, parents who prioritize
education, extracurricularactivities, parents who did the
best that they possibly couldunder the circumstances.
But I was touched by an olderneighborhood boy, cloaked that
(15:18):
with religious shame and theother trauma within the family
dynamic, which is the only thingI don't talk about publicly
because my parents are stillalive, and I've chosen to focus
on the positive and honor myfamily's legacy.
My father is a coach.
(15:38):
He's in the New England CoachesHall of Fame, the Rhode Island
Coaches Hall of Fame.
I can either honor that legacyor blame, blame, blame, blame,
blame, blame, blame, and there'sa fair amount of that to go
around.
But there was a lot of trauma.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Blame, blame, right, and there's a fair amount of
that to go around, but there wasa lot of trauma, and so this is
something that obviously leadsinto some sort of addiction,
like most addictions have Right,and then do you have children.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I do.
I have two, a 21-year-old and a19-year-old, and two A rule
maker and a rule breaker.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Always one and the other.
I have both myself um.
Did this affect them?
Did they know?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
um, they were very, very young.
My daughter was five and my sonwas, uh, nine, and so I'm gonna
answer that question, astempted as I am to say it didn't
affect them, knowing what Iknow about childhood development
(16:36):
, right, even though theyweren't aware.
I had anger issues.
Right, you were depressed, Iwas unkind to their mother, I
blamed her for our problems, Iworked like a fiend, right,
everything was work, work andescape, work and escape, work
and escape.
So I'm certain the answer isyes, and more so for my daughter
(17:01):
than my son.
And so what we have, you know,continued to do is to have open
and honest, vulnerableconversations about mental
health, no different than youtalk about a sprained elbow.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Right, yes, and that's amazing because it's
still not spoken about like asprained ankle, right?
It's still taboo in a lot ofpeople's houses.
It's still considered weak in alot of people's houses,
definitely.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, frowned upon you know.
Stop you know.
For guys, stop being a you knowwhat you know.
Suck it up, you know, deal withit.
Stop blaming a you know whatyou know.
Uh, um, suck it up, you know,deal with it.
Stop blaming, you know, and and.
While there is a big blamingcomponent in a lot of therapy
today, obviously the goal is toget beyond that and so your
(17:49):
modality, how you help peopleget beyond that.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Because we go from wounds to wisdom.
So we go from the place wherewe blame, from the place where
we're the victim, to the placewhere we now have our own power.
We sit in our seat of power andwe also help empower others.
So tell us about your modalityand how you do that.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Sure, sure.
And my modality came from therealization that if I looked at
the work that I had done intreatment, 90% of it to 95% was
problem centric.
And I drove the agenda and Ihad, by contrast, because of my
(18:31):
executive roles at big billiondollar companies who had you
know these bottomless trainingbudgets, executive roles at big
billion dollar companies who hadyou know these bottomless
training budgets I wouldcontrast that with a leadership
development program and wouldhad you know metrics,
deliverables, milestones,developmental milestones, et
cetera, et cetera.
And I wanted to bring thatperspective, that leadership,
(18:55):
high performance perspective,into my environment.
So one of the first things thatI have clients do is articulate
not just their direction andpurpose.
The coaching space is litteredwith, for good reason, you know,
direction and purpose typeexercises Because of my systems
background.
How are you going to keep thatalive?
Right, how do you make surethat this doesn't die?
(19:17):
And even though it's boring,even though it isn't sexy, even
though you know everybody wantsthe deep stuff, if you don't
have that plan you're nevergoing to live.
So, direction and purpose, westart with direction and purpose
.
Then there's this riskmanagement exercise which says
hey, when are you mostvulnerable?
What are you going to do aboutit management?
exercise which says, hey, whenare you most vulnerable?
(19:38):
What are you going to do aboutit?
But where things getinteresting for clients is when,
instead of identifying all ofthe bad parts of their addiction
because every addiction programyou go into one of the first
exercises.
What is the cost of thataddiction?
How bad does this get if youkeep going?
And that's leading from a placeof fear, albeit it's an
important perspective.
But my clients already knowthat I have them identify the
(20:02):
good parts of their behavior,meaning what needs is this
behavior meeting?
Because I want them focusedvery, very early on.
Like we talked earlier, thisbehavior is meeting very
important needs and if you don'tunderstand what those needs are
, you're never going to getthose needs met proactively.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
So I'll pause there and there's three more important
components that I'm happy toshare with you, but just to see
if you have any questions aboutthat, yeah, I mean so, not
necessarily the modality, buthow do you bring back the
intimacy in your relationshipafter what would feel like to
most people a betrayal like that?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Oh, a profound betrayal.
And it's why our program weinclude the support for the
spouse, Barbie, because ifyou've got someone devastated,
broken and betrayed, and I don'tcare how much emotional
intelligence the guy accumulates, I don't care how much
emotional intelligence the guyaccumulates, right that that
those wounds need to be treated.
So, so, so we, we, we try, we,we, we treat both the.
(21:02):
I like to say you can't givewhat you don't have, Right?
And most of my clients, some ofthem being some of the most
successful people on the planet,professional athletes, people
in the public eye, people whohave lives that we could only
dream of, deep down inside theyhate themselves.
So that intimacy, if you will,has to start from within before
(21:27):
you can give that to someoneelse.
And in my clients, both the menand the women, those walls are
so deep.
Those walls are the reason forthe distance that exists in the
relationship in the first place.
So, understanding theprotective why do we put up
walls to protect, Understandingthe protective nature of those
(21:49):
walls, the origin story, thefamily of origin, the childhood
stuff, and then coming up with away to meet each other at that
conflict point, when each personis dysregulated, and we call it
, the emotional safety exercise,one of the most important
exercises in the program.
Where do you feel safe?
How does it make you feel?
Where don't you feel safe?
(22:11):
How does it make you feel andwhat do you want your partner to
help you in that moment ofdysregulation?
How are you going to worktogether?
Because you're never going toget rid of conflict in a
relationship.
Now, when that conflict issaturated or infected by those
deep wounds.
You know, safety is the mostimportant word, probably in my
(22:32):
vocabulary.
I used to think it was love,but you can't have that unless
you feel safe.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Agreed and you say that you ask the question.
How does this make you feel?
What I have learned is thatthere are many people who don't
know how they feel.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, so then you have to teach them how to
recognize what their feelingsare.
So it's a very deep process.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
A deep process in you know it's an identity journey.
You know who you are, who doyou want to be, what belief
systems are necessary to tosupport that identity, what
actions are necessary toreinforce that identity?
Like your bicep stops gettingstrong if you start doing curls
(23:17):
Right.
And I realized that, barbie,because there's so much out
there about identity.
It's important, it's thedeepest level of change, and all
of that's true.
But one of the questions Iasked myself that I didn't see
answered out there is what doyou do about it?
And so this notion ofreflecting it within your field
of vision, sharing it with yourallies, accountability, partners
(23:38):
, and doing things, believingthings, and having some record
of that somewhere that you cananchor back to when you're in
those low points, again, it'snot sexy, it's practical, but
identity fades.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Absolutely.
It's practical, but.
But identity fades absolutely,and it I mean your identity, if
you do the work, should faderight, because we're not.
We're not what we do for aliving, we're not who admires us
, we're not any of those things.
That's just how we, that's howwe identify ourselves, because
we're lacking inside that'sright and that that it that I.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
I put that in the advanced category, at least the
way I structure my programacceptance, because in the
beginning, especially whenpeople in crisis, I don't want
to do this, so I have to do that.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
And then we get to my favorite piece of advice, which
is related to what you'retalking about.
What you're talking about,lower the bars, one that that's
up there, you know, kaizen goals, but the other one is do
nothing.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
You don't have to do anything because you're
dysregulated right now.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Right and people want to because they want to fix it.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
They want to fix it and it's uncomfortable to sit in
the uncomfortable Dare, I quoteDisney it's learning how to let
go.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah, like you can do .
That's a skill, that'ssomething you can develop.
You can sit in that discomfort.
And the irony is because thatwhich you resist persist.
The irony is your capacity tosit in that discomfort makes
that discomfort go quicker.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yes, it dissipates quicker, absolutely Because
you're not now focused on it,because you're not trying to fix
it.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Love that.
Let's talk to the women whojust basically say they're
married to a man or they're in arelationship with a man and he
is watching porn and he is goingto, occasionally with his
friends, the strip clubs, andthis really bothers the woman.
She feels like it is a betrayalto her.
Most women are going to say youcan't do that, they're just
(25:34):
going to order them.
You can't do that.
But we all know that you cansay that to somebody, but nobody
knows what you're really doingin your own time, in your own
space and most likely, if yousay you can't watch porn,
they're not going to listen toyou.
They're just going to hide itmore, right?
So so what's the solution tothat?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah, it is standing why you believe it's bad.
You know we're living in aninteresting time because and
it's one of the big cognitivedistortions in our time and I'm
speaking for my clients only, soyou know I know there's
exceptions to every rule, butevery one of them there is a man
(26:13):
who, in some capacity, has beenengaging in some behavior and
lying about it since he was achild and has continued in
secret.
I'm not discounting the harm,we're not talking about that now
.
We're just this, this reality.
Then we can speak to pornspecifically, and then on, and a
(26:34):
culture of do it, go get her,you know, get the girl, you know
, go have sex right and then onthe other side you've got but my
clients, um, shamed sexuallysometimes, uh, touched
inappropriately, um, not wiredvisually, not raised in a
culture of pornography, can'teven fathom, can't even fathom
(26:56):
why someone would do this, whichwhich is part of that, that
betrayal right, they can't evenfathom.
So if you get two peopleexperiencing very different
lives and and the partner saysporn is cheating, we'll talk,
just speak.
Speak to that for a second.
The guy says it's not, becausethey're defining cheating
differently.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
And what happens is when the guy shuts up and starts
listening and hopefully hispartner can get to a place.
Here's why I think it'scheating, I think it's unhealthy
for the marriage.
I think that when you'redirecting your sexual energy to
someone else, that weakens thebond, and when you lie about it,
(27:39):
that makes me feel betrayed andit hurts me tremendously.
It makes me feel unattractive.
Right, I can never compete withthat.
It destroys me.
And so there's a space wherethe guy goes, goes, and, by the
way, there's ample data tosupport every single thing that
(27:59):
she's saying.
Right again, not for everybody,for the my clients, um.
And then the guy is like oh, Inever thought about it from that
perspective.
I was socialized, culturized,raised.
Um, you know that your deepestwound happens to be like I've
done that more than I brush myteeth.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Like that's literally the frequency.
Sometimes, barbie, some guysrealize cause they didn't take
care of their teeth in theirtwenties or they didn't brush
when they were young and theythink about, like we've got the
oldest and most impactful habitis causing this deep wound and
if men can get away from it'snot cheating, it is cheating.
It's a terrible argument andit's one that they're always
(28:44):
going to lose.
So they should get curious onwhy their partner thinks it's
cheating and why you have suchdifferent definitions.
And if your partner is able toarticulate that, because it's
hard when you're angry, whenyou're hurt and you're betrayed,
you know unpacking that.
Why do I think this way?
Because I know other peoplewatch porn together.
(29:05):
I know, um, you know it's likethe, like the, that makes more
money than every sports teamthat ever existed, every league
right and so and he's been doingit since he was a kid, let me,
let me.
And then then they realize, likeback to the point you made
earlier like Whoa, this isn'tabout me, this doesn't mean he
(29:25):
doesn't love me, right, causehe's the same guy who'd push you
out of a way in a moving carand get hit and risk his life to
save his children.
Same person, right and so whenthe guy asks those questions and
the partner is able toarticulate that reason, it
becomes a really powerfulopportunity to say, hey, let's
(29:49):
reflect on the literature.
It does say that when couplesthere's a study, barbie, that
someone wrote I wish I knew thename and the beginning of the
study says something to theeffect of we don't care about
love, language, attachment,style, I feel language,
non-violent communication.
When husband and wife aredirecting that energy towards
each other and both are presentfor that experience, their lives
(30:12):
are significantly better, right?
No?
Speaker 1 (30:15):
matter how they resolve conflict there has to be
respect for each other so trueyeah, I mean without respect you
have nothing.
I mean you have to have trust,but you have to start with
respect, um, because I wouldimagine a lot of that um comes
from like I was asking earlier,like why do men do it and it?
I have learned through a lot ofmy talking with people that
(30:38):
oftentimes men don't feel likethey are appreciated either,
right, and so when you don'tfeel like you're appreciated,
you don't feel like you'rerespected, then you're going to
turn to something else.
That's just human nature,especially if you're not
educated on how to use tools todo something better.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Inside.
Every man is a king or a fool.
The one you get is the one youtalk to, and we could apply that
to everybody.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Right.
Love that, love that saying.
One final question.
I have a son.
How do I, how do I raise my sonto be a healthy, sexual male
who has healthy ideas?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah, talk to him.
What would you talk to himabout?
Speaker 1 (31:19):
But what do you talk to them about?
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Talk to them about your experience, the desire to
prioritize physical health,mental health, spiritual health,
(31:52):
where there's a fourth one thatoften gets overlooked and when
it is brought up, it's around.
Don't do that, you're going toburn in hell and you're going to
get a disease and you're goingto die.
Shame, shame.
And so it forces us, as parents, to what are our values around
it.
What do we want them to be andhow do we communicate them at an
age-appropriate way to theirchild?
Now, that's beyond my bailiwick.
(32:14):
So you know finding the rightwords for each developmental
stage, but the moreconversations the better.
This isn't you, you know it's.
These kids have it tougher thanwe've ever had, and it's almost
, and it's tough finding thatage, but he is going to get
(32:34):
exposed to pornography and heand you have to instill in him
why, as titillating as it is, asexciting as it is for that
teenage hormonal developmentalbrain and how normalized it is
now as young as 11, in caseseven earlier, my younger clients
were talking exposed at eightyears old.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Why that incredibly exciting, titillating thing can
consume you?
Because this part of us isreally powerful.
It's a really powerful forceand what we've learned?
When that energy is goingtowards a partner, when you're
ready, you're going to createmagic.
When it's going this way,you're going to lead to a life
of loneliness, low self-esteem,poor coping strategies,
(33:20):
completely corrupted sexuality.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Right, so they're going to be exposed, like you
said, to porn, right, and so youhave no choice with that.
That's just the way it is atthis point.
What, in your opinion, is ahealthy, a healthy sex like?
What does a healthy male looklike sexually at a teenage,
preteen stage?
(33:43):
What does that look like?
Because you can't control thefact that they're I mean, it
doesn't matter if his system'scompletely locked down at home.
His friend's going to haveaccess to something, right?
So as a parent, you don't wantto shame them.
You know that they're going tohave access to stuff.
So what is it?
Is it normal for them to havethese desires and then you allow
them to have these desires?
(34:03):
Is it not normal for them tohave these desires?
I mean, I'm just trying to look.
How do I parent my son?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah, very normal to have these desires, barbie, but
one of the things I've learnedas a coach is to stay in my lane
and this is outside it.
This is an area that you know.
There are people out there whocan help you, you know, define
what that healthy sexuality is.
You know, for example, inChristian homes they may be
(34:32):
anti-masturbation andnon-Christian homes they'd be
more tolerant of masturbation.
The problem with theanti-masturbation is he's going
to do it anyway.
The data is like unequivocal.
Every guy knows it, everyfather knows it.
Stop pretending, right.
So you're going to talk aboutit and you're going to say, hey,
you know this, there's a costto all.
You know all the good thingsabout it and um, but you know
(34:53):
that that that depends a lot onthe family's belief systems and
goals you know with the childand, as you said, that just the
idea.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
To me it was like, well, just at least not shaming
If there's nothing else that youcan do outside of obviously
communicating is not bringingshame into anything, because
shame just creates people toshut down and think that they're
bad and then they have to hide.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
And the root cause, barbie, of every client that
I've ever worked with is a deepand profound lack of love for
self, and there's always a shamecomponent to that.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
So always making sure they love themselves as much as
possible.
Correct I love that we aregoing to end, so appreciate you.
Tell us how we can watch yourpodcast and learn more about
your services.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Sure, if you can find my podcast Sex Afflictions and
Porn Addictions, it is whereevery major podcast is found.
You can search my name, craigPera P-E-R-R-A, and that'll
bring it to you.
We'll put some links in thedescription below If you want to
visit the websitemindfulhabithelpcom.
Mindfulhabithelpcom.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Beautiful, love it.
Thank you for coming on theshow Appreciate you Welcome.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Thanks for having me, barbie.
Okay, bye.
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