June 25, 2021 • 34 mins
In this episode of Fulbright Forward, Fulbright Americas Diversity and Inclusion Liaison speaks with U.S. ETA alum to Guatemala, Jonathan Peraza Campos about the critical need to redefine and reimagine how folks from the United States conduct English teaching abroad, in particular within Latin America and the Caribbean. As Jonathan shares in the episode, this is about disrupting “perceptions that the United States is a white, wealthy, and perfect English-speaking country by exposing [students] to the multiracial, multicultural, and multilingual diversity and history of the U.S.” Through this discussion we reflect on how Jonathan navigated his ETA-ship, how he implemented a critical English-teaching praxis with his students, and what any of us can do to move us towards a more politically conscious English teaching world where the full humanity of our students and ourselves is celebrated, and exclusionary narratives are questioned and dismantled.
Jonathan Peraza Campos, a U.S. Salvadoran/Guatemalan educator, organizer, abolitionist thinker, and Central American scholar whose work focuses on organizing around racial, immigrant, and educational justice, on providing a critical and multifaceted education to Latinx youth throughout the Atlanta metro area, and to building bridges built on solidarity and connection between communities in Central America and U.S. Central Americans. To learn more about Jonathan and the work in which he is involved, check out the links below:
- Activist in Residence with Abolitionist Teaching Network
- Lead Teacher with Ser Familia Inc.
- Migration News Curator with Central American News
- Organizer with the Buford Highway People’s Hub
Links to work by scholars and activists mentioned in the episode:
- Race, Empire, and English Language Teaching by Dr. Suhanthie Motha
- Website of Dr. Bettina Love
- Discussion on the four part equity framework designed by Dr. Gholdy Muhammad
- Website of Dr. Christopher Emdin
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (00:05):
In her text race Empire, and
English Language Teachingscholar Dr. Suhanthie Motha when
discussing the future of Englishteaching writes, "traditional
narratives about the promises ofEnglish are not
unproblematically true. We needto instead offer multiple
readings of what happens whenEnglish is learned, of what
happened to an individual whenshe or he learns English, of
(00:25):
what happened to the world whenentire populations learn
English, and to more cohesivelyconnect these understandings
about English to the effects ofracism, empire, and students'
political action and agency. Isit enough for schools to merely
teach children language, toinitiate them into the forms of
English that will further themeconomically and equip them to
make a living, disregarding thedevelopment of their first
(00:46):
languages? Or do students needmore?" As she and many scholars
argue, we must teach English ina critical manner, one that
recognizes English's economicand social benefits, and also
one that acknowledges thepolitical power English
possesses in a global frame, inparticular, the role that
English has had in securing thegeopolitical power of countries
(01:07):
like the United States. Whathowever, does this form of
teaching look like in practice?
And what do we need in order torealize a critical English
teaching ethos? Welcome toanother episode of Fulbright
Forward, a Diversity Podcast. Myname is Jeremy Gombin-Sperling,
the Fulbright Diversity andInclusion Liaison for the
Western Hemisphere programs.
Today's episode of the podcastis number four from the Western
(01:28):
Hemisphere region, and the firstof a few episodes focused on
unpacking English and languageteaching. Today's episode
features ETA alum to GuatemalaJonathan Peraza Campos, a U.S.
Salvadoran-Guatemalan educator,organizer, abolitionist thinker,
and Central American scholarwhose work focuses on organizing
around racial, immigrant andeducational justice, on
(01:49):
providing a critical andmultifaceted education to Latinx
youth throughout the Atlantametro area, and to building
bridges built on solidarity andconnection between communities
in Central America and U.S.
Central Americans. On today'sepisode, Jonathan helps us
explore the need to redefine andreimagine U.S. English teaching
abroad, as he puts it, "todisrupt perceptions that the
United States is a white,wealthy and perfect English
(02:12):
speaking country by exposingthem to the multiracial,
multicultural and multilingualdiversity in history of the
U.S." Through this discussion,we reflect on how Jonathan
navigated his ETA-ship as a gay,first-generation, male
Fulbrighter with heritage in thecountry in which he taught, how
we implemented a criticalEnglish teaching practices with
the students, and what any of uscan do to move us towards a more
(02:33):
politically conscious Englishteaching world, where the full
humanity of our students inourselves is celebrated, and
exclusionary narratives arequestioned and dismantled.
Jonathan, thank you so much forbeing part of the podcast, we
really appreciate you beinghere.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (02:49):
Thank you for having me, really
excited to be here.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperlin (02:52):
This episode is really about learning
more about you, yourself, yourbackground, and more about your
experience as an ETA inGuatemala and the kind of
everything that's been part ofthe experience for you. So,
before we dive into any detailsabout your experience on the
grant, please tell us more aboutwho you are.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (03:09):
My name is Jonathan Peraza Campos and I
am based in Atlanta, but myheart belongs to Central America
and the U.S. South. I am a firstgeneration college graduate. I'm
from a working class immigrantfamily, raised by a single
mother from El Salvador, but myroots are from El Salvador and
Guatemala. So I'm very proudlyCentral American. And I've been
(03:31):
an educator for the past fewyears. I've been in research, as
you know, trained as anacademic, doing research and
teaching and organizing morethan anything. I'm in the
struggle. I'm in the strugglefor abolition, for anti-racism
for anti-imperialism. Everythingthat I am channeled into my work
because the personal is, ofcourse, political. And that
(03:51):
looks like educational work forme, as well as research work.
I'm involved in variousprojects, to organize Latinx in
the south and for racial andimmigrant justice, educational
justice. But I'm very connectedto the Central American
community in the U.S. andtransnationally. Because we're
building, I'm really invested inbuilding a global and U.S. South
(04:13):
that are interconnected witheach other, across borders and
across struggles. And all of thework that I do is kind of
channeling into that kind ofmentality and that politic.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (04:23):
Thank you so much for sharing that and
just giving us a little bit moreof a sense of who you are. And
also really like kind of thepolitical analysis that sounds
like you're applying to all thework that you're doing and how
you're thinking about the world.
You know, my next question isreally about what sort of led
you to the Fulbright experienceto pursue the ETA post in
Guatemala. And I'm also curious,and you may also touch on this
in a moment, like how inapplying to become an ETA, how
(04:45):
also this sort of consciousnessanalysis of the world was also
developing.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (04:52):
So I was a student, an undergraduate
student at Emory University inDecatur, Georgia, where I was a
Sociology major. And you know,but I was also doing a lot of
like Ethnic Studies work, a lotof like African American Studies
Latino St-, well, I was studyingLatino Studies and Central
American Studies independentlybecause Emory has yet to create
a program. But we're fightingfor that still. But I mean, my
(05:14):
analysis comes from abolitionistwork from Black Studies from
Latin American and CentralAmerican Studies. And I'm an
organizer involved in leftist,you know, organizing. We want a
different world, and so that'sreally the analysis that I come
from. But I got to applying to aFulbright because I had two, um,
two folks at Emory, Dr. MeganFriddle, and Dr. Liz Alexander,
(05:38):
who worked in the NationalScholarships and Fellowships
program at Emory and lateremployed me after I got the
Fulbright to help others applyto um, Fulbright. But they were
watching out for me, becausethey saw my potential. And they
saw that somebody like me frommy backgrounds, right, like a
gay first-generation Latino,who, you know, very few of us
get to get into Fulbright,right, very few of us get these
opportunities. And so they, theysaw my talents and my value, and
(06:01):
they wanted me to approach thisopportunity. And that's how I
ended up applying. And theyhelped prepare me and helped
just develop my applications.
And so I really, you know, Ihave a lot of political stances
that kind of contradict whatFulbright stands for, which I
definitely want to talk about.
But I am a scholar of CentralAmerican Studies and Latino
Studies and migration and racismin the continent. And so, you
(06:23):
know, I got to read all thesebooks, watch all these movies,
read all these articles, andjust my own family history and
stories and formed my analysisand my, my knowledge as a
Central American Studiesscholar, but there's no better
way to become a scholar of aregion and other people than
being in the region and with thepeople. And also kind of, I had
a self interest in that, youknow, I grew up Salvadoran with
(06:45):
my mom, but my father, who I didnot grow up with is Guatemalan,
but, and I don't claim myfather, but I claim my culture.
And I wanted to learn about thatside of myself that I was not
exposed to, and go intoGuatemala on the U.S.
government's dollar was a goodway to do that. You know, all
these white kids from richfamilies get to go to my
homeland, you know, wheneverthey want, like, I wanted the
(07:06):
opportunity to go see myhomeland. That's what led me to
apply to this. And you know,it's had a lot of benefits as
well as downfalls with it.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (07:14):
Can you share a little bit more
about just like, the kind oflogistics right, like, where you
went, when you were inGuatemala? Like what the school
was, like, just kind of you canillustrate the image of maybe
the first day or just or just,you know, where you were doing
your work.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (07:27):
So um, I was based in Coban, Alta
Verapaz, Guatemala, which islike the middle like a North
Central kind of part of Guate.
Umm, it's, you know, amountainous region, pretty
rural, outside of GuatemalaCity, which is like the urban
center of Guatemala, but I gotto, you know, I was based there
for most of my time there. Andit was, you know, a quiet, slow
(07:48):
paced town, very beautiful, verypeaceful, and it was great. It
was a great experience. It's avery Indigenous town also. So
you see the ways that, you know,the indigenous and Latino
cultures kind of mix and theways that you knowlooks how it
feels. It was honestly bogglingto see Indigenous people just
walking around in their ownland, while the U.S. has
reservations for our Indigenouspeoples, right? Like they're
(08:10):
landlocked by the U.S.
government. And we don't seeIndigenous peoples in the U.S.
like we do in Guatemala. So thatwas a very boggling experience
for sure, to see the ways thatIndigenous life has carried on
in the way that it has, notwithout its own problems, of
course, but it was verydifferent for sure, and that
part of Guate. But I got to seeGuate. I got to travel. That was
(08:31):
one of my privileges as a U.S.
Embassy representative. Like Igot to see more of the country
than Guatemalans themselves, Igot to travel and give conf-,
give be at conferences, givepresentations to Teachers of
English and Social Studies, youknow, about how to teach U.S.
culture in a critical anddiverse way, in an inclusive
way. And you know I, there arebeautiful people that work in
the U.S. Embassy, who areGuatemalan. There are people who
(08:54):
have benefited from theprograms, the U.S. Embassy
programs that I worked for, theaccess programs, you know,
beautiful people, amazingeducators. I learned so much
from like 16 year old educatorswho are trained by these
programs, like the best teachersI've ever met. And they taught
me a lot on how to be a muchbetter educator. So you know, I
got to really see Guate andlive in like, share space and be
in community with people inCoban, especially but across
(09:18):
Guate, and that was beautiful.
I came in as in like anoutsider. But I was an
insider-outsider at the sametime because I'm a native
Spanish speaker I grew upspeaking Spanish, right. A lot
of my Salvadoran and Latinoculture that I grew up with in
the US, translated very easilyinto the Guatemalan context. We
eat a lot of the similar foods.
So I mean, the food was great.
(09:38):
Like I love Guatemalan food,like it's very similar to
Salvadoran food. I did not feellike a stranger. I felt like I
was coming to visit like someaunties for like a year. That's
what it really felt like, and itwas great. It was great. But it
was you know, apart from beingbeautiful for those reasons, it
was also really painful. BecauseI'm a Central American Studies
scholar. I know my history. Iknow the history of U.S.
(09:59):
imperialism, and interveventionin the region, and how, you
know, the government devastatedour countries intervened in our
countries for its owngeopolitical economic interests.
And so I had a lot of guiltthroughout the entire year that
led to depression. Honestly, Iwas very depressed and hel-,
held a lot of guilt most of theyear, because although I was
having this great experience ofliving in Guatemala, getting to
(10:21):
know the history and culture ata much, much closer context,
right, I also knew that I was apart of the soft power of the
U.S. Empire with, you know, theETA program, and so forth. But I
also needed to see my homelandfor myself. And this was an
opportunity to do so. And I wasliving a very privileged life.
The stipends that I would get,you know, I was seeing more
(10:43):
money than my family ever saw intheir life as a U.S., as a ETA
fellow. And it was veryinteresting to be like an
insider-outsider like to come inwith the privilege and the power
of U.S. empire, but also being agay Central American in a
homophobic country, likeGuatemala. Like I had to go back
into the closet for my ownsafety, which is a very
difficult experience. And itreally was sobering, because I'm
(11:06):
used to being gay as hell inAtlanta, but being gay in Guate
is, you know, it's, it's a, it'sa hazard. But I got to build
community with queer and transfolks when I was down there too.
And that was beautiful as wellto just be gay Guatemala and
being gay, Guatemalan circlesand and trans Guatemalan
circles.
I'm really, I really aimed atapproaching language teaching
(11:28):
from a critical approach byteaching about not English, but
Global Englishes. These are the,this is the history of the
English language. This is why wespeak it in the U.S., why it's
spoken in Jamaica and Africancountries, in Southeast Asia.
Alright, like these are whythey're official languages or
like common languages in thesecountries. There's a history of
colonialism, of enslavement, ofgenocide, that brought these
(11:50):
languages all over the world,and is one of the reasons this
language is being hypervalued inthe Guatemalan context. Language
learning and learning othercultures is beautiful. It is,
but we have to understand whyone language and one culture is
being put on a pedestal overothers, where people prefer to
learn English, rather than oneof the 22 or 24 um different
(12:10):
indigenous languages in your owncountry. Right? The fact that
English a foreign language isbeing hypervalued in this
context is a problem and we haveto talk about, I think about it.
I taught about Black LivesMatter, and a lot of my
indigenous kids, right, whounderstand anti-Indigenous
racism, in Guatemala reallyresonated with Black Lives
Matter, because they foundconnections, right? So I was
very intentional about teachingan antiracist, critical history
(12:33):
of the U.S. Oflike, this is whatwas done to Black and Brown and
Asian and Indigenous peoples inthe U.S., but this is also how
we fought back. What connectionsdo you see in your context in
your culture, right? And so youknow, you have to find ways to
embed pedagogies and curricular,curricular choices that subvert
the American narrative, themaster narrative, we call it in,
(12:55):
you know, curriculum studies.
There is a master narrative. AndETAs have a habit of exporting,
you know, the master narrativeto, you know, as ETAs to their
English language program. Like,don't treat Black History Month,
like the flavor of the month inFebruary. Teach Black History
all the time, teach AsianAmerican history all the time,
teach Latino and Indigenoushistory all the time. You know,
I teach everybody. Teacheverybody's culture, because we
(13:18):
are all part of the fabric ofwhat the U.S. is. And so it is
it becomes the choice of theeducator of the ETA, to decide,
am I going to perpetuate themaster narrative? Or am I going
to give these kids the tools tobe critical and conscious of
different identities, of howcomplex and diverse the U.S.
really is. And I don't thinkthat Fulbright is malicious, but
(13:39):
part of a system is thesometimes we don't know that we
are perpetuating these things.
We don't know what we don't knowsometimes. And I think that's a
big part of what ETAs bring withthem.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (13:51):
One thing I'm also thinking about
with English teaching, as well,is something I've struggled with
at times, too, is, you know,both how to construct the
critical community forconversation, and sometimes
facing the reality of, oh!Because of the economic
realities in which we live,there are folks who are in some
ways saying they need this ormay actually need this English
(14:12):
for the potential of havingaccess to resources. And so I'm
curious for yourself, what wasbalancin-, if that if that was
something that either crossedyour path or occurred for you
while abroad? How did younavigate that?
Jonathan Peraza Campos (14:25):
That's, that's and that's real, right?
Like, folks were attracted tothese U.S. Embassy programs. I
taught them English because itdoes have material outcomes that
improve their wages, improvetheir occu-, their job
opportunities, their payopportunities, right? Like they
need these things for their ownsurvival. And you can't shame
somebody for like, hav-, livingwith that reality. Right? That's
(14:48):
just the reality that folks livein. That's the reality that all
of my kids lived in, um, inGuatemala like they needed this
extra leg up in a country wherethere are scarce jobs for people
that you know, don't have aneducation right? Like you- it's
really hard to get a job inGuatemala, it's really hard to
you know, but call centers arebooming. The call center
industry is really booming inGuatemala right that is a job
(15:09):
opportunity that a lot of peoplecan go into. And you know, the
Access programs have greatopportunities to teach students
who had advanced English how toget involved in the tourism
industry with practical trainingalong with their English
education. And so, you know, Idon't think that it's a matter
of either or. I think that wehave to do all those things, to
you know, give these kids a legup, to give these folks you
(15:31):
know, to help them use Englishto maximize their professional
and their educationalopportunities, which is a goal,
the goal of the access programs.
But you know, just a referenceinto my some of my professors
and role models like Dr. GholdyMuhammad and Dr. Bettina Love,
like, we have to be teachers whoalso are abolitionists, and also
our anti racists, we can stillachieve academic success, which
(15:52):
in the context of the FulbrightETA program is English language
development, we can still dothat, and like help children
reach that, that, those goalsright from a, to better material
outcomes. Well, we can alsoteach in a way that enhances
criticality, right? A criticalsense of power and oppression,
and also identity development.
(16:13):
And so you know, it's not aneither/or it's are you willing
to put in the work to givechildren a full holistic
humanizing education? And Ithink that, that's something
that we really need to look to.
Look to black women look, tominoritized people who have been
developing theories andeducation about what a
humanizing and criticaleducation for everybody's
humanity, everybody's liberationlooks like, because English
(16:34):
language programs severely needthis kind of intervention.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (16:38):
No, absolutely. I mean, I think, I
think especially, you know, withthe platform that English
teaching programs have by beingessentially what I'll kind of
label a desired commodity, andbecause of the sort of the
global power structure, inwhich it operates, there is sort
of this platform already to bedoing this kind of critical
work. How do we bring incritical thought and perspective
as folks who are owning our U.S.
power, in a way that's notimposition? How do we sort of
(17:03):
ensure that we are building botha community of knowledge that
welcomes the perspectives andideas around areas around
liberatory thinking and processand practice and pedagogy from
the folks we're working with,rather than, in some cases,
potentially reproducing asimilar form of "this is from
the US it's good," even if itmay be from a more kind of
(17:25):
critical liberatory perspective?
Does that make sense to thequestion?
Jonathan Peraza Campos (17:30):
I think so. I think I understand what
you're saying. I mean, I thinkthat a big part of that is
recognizing that you are not anexpert, right? You are there to
learn just as much as you arethere to teach. And you should
be very intentional aboutcreating a curriculum that gives
the learners you are engagingwithin the country, with
opportunities to teach you asmuch as you were there to teach
(17:51):
them. Right, you have toacknowledge that you are not
there to, you know, and this ispulling from critical
educational theories, right fromPaulo Freire, and bell hooks,
right? Like, you're, you're notthere to deposit knowledge into
anybody's empty head, like,there is already knowledge
living there that you have toincorporate into the educational
space. They have so much toteach you and you are there to
(18:12):
listen to them as much as theyare there to listen to you to
see what you have to share. Andtogether we produce knowledg.
Together, we produce a neweducational setting, right, we
create a third space to use, youknow, theoretical terms, right?
Where our different worlds cometogether and mash together in
ways that we you know, to pullfrom the Zapatista saying, like
(18:33):
a world where many worlds canfit. I think that there is a
very important need for the ETAprogram to really re-evaluate
and restructure, radicallyrestructure their teacher
training. We had a great teachertraining when we went to our
orientation in Texas, but youknow, beyond that teach us, you
know, educational models aboutpopular education, right? How do
(18:54):
we come into a space and teachin a way where we also allow our
students to become teachers tous? How do we learn to create
curriculum and lesson plans,where we can mesh all of our
knowledge together and not justcome in with, you know, my U.S.
English language knowledge thatyou are going to learn because
you need this for your benefit?
That is imperialism. That isimperialism, you know, build
community with others who are inthe same page as you cause
(19:17):
community is important in thiswork. It cannot be just a me
individual, like trying tochange the system. It's like all
of us, right? We all have to beon the same page, we all have to
be in dialogue with each other,we all have to learn from each
other and like, bring ourknowledges together, you know,
with other ETAs and with thefolks that we're teaching and
learning from in our sites,right? We have to be very
intentional and critical in howwe approach these things.
(19:40):
Because if we're not teaching ahumanizing education, then what
we are doing is a dehumanizingeducation. And who wants to be
who wants to be somebody thatdehumanizes other people whether
they intend to or not?
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (19:53):
But one thing I guess I'm also
hearing which I feel like isimportant is is sort of this
question of what I'm going tokind of label vulnerability, I
think in my own experience ofboth trying to challenge myself,
like, you know, navigating spaceas a queer, as a queer Jewish
person, while also, you know,understanding my whiteness
abroad in different places, hasalso meant having to, you know,
(20:14):
access my vulnerability. And Ithink what you shared is like,
understand what you don't know.
And seek to know. I'm curiousfor you, if it comes into play,
how does even your ownexperiences with, with learning
vulnerability or sharingvulnerability or that with
others come into this piece thatyou just share it around,
building this community ofpractice?
Jonathan Peraza Campos (20:37):
Oof, vulnerability is hard.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperlin (20:40):
It's tough.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (20:41):
It's hard, like as a man, and as a
man with a lot of trauma fromlike, the civil wars that my
family endured, right? The U.S.
funded civil wars that my familyendured. Being a gay man in a
homophobic world, like, oof,vulnerability is hard. I'm still
learning it to be honest. It's alot of unlearning, you know,
that men and cis people and youknow, we have to do and just
(21:03):
people that have trauma, right,like unlearning, and relearning
how to heal and know ourselvesand be vulnerable. It is
important, right? It isimportant work. And that's part
of a humanizing education too,right, centering emotions and
centering healing. And you know,I'm still a student of this
process. But I mean, Idefinitely felt that
(21:26):
vulnerability. And, because, youknow, I definitely encountered
like, I was in a veryinteresting space where people
saw me and they saw a Guatemalana Central American, but once
they heard me speak in Spanish,they're like, Huh, you're not
from here, huh? Right. And youknow, and it was even
invalidating sometimes. It wasunderstandable. But it was
invalidating right? Or peoplewill tell me Oh, you sound
(21:48):
Mexican. And it's like, ya know,like, I grew up around Mexicans,
like, I didn't grow up aroundmany Central Americans. Like,
you know, as people got to knowme, and people heard me use my
slang and people saw the waythat I ate their foods like, and
enjoy them just as much as theydid, they're like, okay, like,
he's, he's definitely one of us.
He's different, but he's one ofus. I think they're really
navigating that contradictoryspace of being a Central
(22:09):
American from the U.S. Empirelike that put me in a vulnerable
position where I really had toreevaluate myself. And I really
had to sit with my privilege assomebody from the empire. I had
to sit with my class privilegegetting money from the U.S.
empire living a relativelylavish life. In Guatemala, I had
to sit with my privilege ofbeing a white Guatemalan,
because there were racialdynamics that I had to navigate,
(22:30):
you know. Like, and when I speakabout whiteness, like I'm also
talking about myself, becauseafter gringos that work in what
they like, I'm the next personin the in the ladder, you know
what I mean? Like, like, areally white skinned, light
skinned Guatemala speak Spanish.
I'm not indigenous. You know, Iwas a white Guatemalan, or
white, Central American,teaching English. And, you know,
speaking Spanish to Indigenouspeople of Guatemala, who are
(22:51):
oppressed by people who comefrom my positionality, who are
from Guatemala, right? Like,they're my students were also
under the boot of colonialracism, from people who look
like me, who come from mypositionality in Guatemala. So
like, and I'm grateful for thisexperience. Because in being
vulnerable in that way, like, Ihad to just bring my
complexities together into oneroom, and be like, "Alright,
(23:14):
y'all, like, check yourself."You know, like constantly
because I'm a man in apatriarchal society. I am a
imperial, imperialist-adjacentas a Fulbrighter. I am a, you
know, somebody from the U.S. an,an English speaking, like, you
know, well bilingual, right,like having but being like
bilingual, in my upbringing,like, that comes with a set of
(23:35):
privileges of its own, right?
Being a college-educated personfrom the U.S., that is another
set of privileges, right? Solike, I think there's a lot of
vulnerability and acknowledging,okay, like, this is who I am.
And this is how I move aroundthe world. And I have to be
honest about it, but alsounderstanding like, you know,
this is, these are my weakpoints. Like, as a gay person,
like, I'm physically vulnerable,I am psychologically vulnerable
(23:57):
in this homophobic society wherelike, trans folks are lynched by
gangs, you know, like in ElSalvador and Guatemala. Like, I
could not, I could not havegrown up a healthy gay man in my
mother's country, or in myfather's country, the way that I
did in the U.S., right? And Ihad to live in the closet, you
know, where I had to, like,tread the line very carefully,
because it was a differentcontext where, you know,
(24:19):
violence looks different, maybenot looks different, but I was
more susceptible to violence ina certain way in that context,
right? So there's a lot ofvulnerabilities that come with
being a marginalized person, butthere's a vulnerability that has
to happen if you are in aposition of power, like I was,
like, Fulbrighters are, we are,coming into a site, right? And
(24:39):
we have to sit with that andacknowledge that and figure out
how do we share power? How do wedistribute our power as much as
we can? It's not going to bepossible in its entirety, but we
can do what we can to subvertand disrupt the ways we acquire
privilege and power throughFullbright through imperialism
through whoever we are andwhatever power we bring into,
like the spaces that we'reworking in. And so this is a PSA
(25:02):
for white folks, right, who getsto go to our countries, like. Be
aware of how much space you takeup and be aware of the privilege
it is to not have to feel thatdread of feeling like you're
hurting your own people. You getto think of yourself as a
missionary, maybe you get tothink of yourself as benefiting
another community, while we arecoming back to our communities
in order to build bridges forour collective liberation. That
(25:25):
is the mindset that many of uscome with or to just find
ourselves, understand ourselves.
Like our experience as people ofdiasporas and people from
immigrant families is comingback to our homelands to know
ourselves.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (25:37):
So when I just want to say I really
appreciate that answer, I thinkone of my intentions and asking
questions also recognizing thatany moment, especially in a
conversation of vulnerability,it could also welcome the
possibility of reliving anypiece of trauma. So I just kind
of want to like, both add andname that and appreciate you
sharing what you shared. And Ithink also, the piece that often
folks have when it comes toconfronting privilege is moving
(26:00):
beyond the confrontation, itgoing beyond just saying, Oh, I
know I have privilege, now what?
It sounds like a lot of yourwork, it feels like it's been a
lot of that well, well, here'swhat! Because sitting in that
moment of kind of a frozen, thisis not benefiting anyone in that
moment.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (26:16):
Exactly.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (26:16):
I know project that you've
mentioned already a little bitand kind of alluded to, I
believe the name of the projectis called the Multicultural U.S.
(US), applying Ethnic Studiesand Global Englishes,
international English, Englishlanguage education. I would just
like to know more about like,what inspired this project, sort
of what the goals of thisproject have been, and I guess
(26:37):
I'm curious to, if any pieces ofthat project have kind of come
back with you into your workwhere you are now.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (26:44):
I very much try to carry the essence of
what I was teaching and how Iwas teaching into this project,
the Multicultural U.S., theMulticultural us, which was kind
of like a curriculum book that Istarted. And I like recruited
other folks of color and othercritical folks that were
invested in disrupting themaster narrative, right,
teaching about the multiculturalU.S., us. And we do that through
(27:06):
ethnic studies, we do thatthrough global englishes. Right?
We have to learn from criticallanguage scholars, right? We
have to learn aboutraciolinguistics, we have to
learn about sociolinguistics, wehave to learn about, you know,
the history of Black folks ofAsian American folks of Latinx
folks, of Central Americans, of,of Indigenous peoples across the
continent, right, MiddleEasterners, we have to learn
(27:27):
about everybody. And, a lot, andyou can easily do that, while
you're also teaching English,it's just a matter of
intentionality. And using themodels and theories that work.
And so this project aims tobring it all together, right?
You have to teach culture andhistory along with language,
because language does not existin a vacuum. Language is a
product of history and cultureand is ever-evolving because of,
(27:48):
you know, developments in ourhistories and cultures, right?
And while it had been started.
And while I had recruited agroup of just amazing women of
color, and friends that, youknow, were ready to throw down
and help develop that with me,because it just became too much
of a project for myself. And youknow they really took it over,
and I'm glad because I justdidn't have capacity after my
grant ended, and I was back inthe U.S. So they took it over.
(28:08):
But because of the pandemic, andbecause Fulbright contracts were
cut, were cut early, right, alot of folks just ended up
coming back home, it just didn'tcome to fruition. But just the
essence of this project is verymuch carried on in my work. I'm
going to go back to Guatemala,I'm going to go back to El
Salvador. You know, I'm gonna goback into the global south and
bring in, you know, myperspectives and hybridize them
(28:30):
with local critical perspectivesof the folks at these sites so
that we can we can create a neweducation, a new way of you
know-- teaching English isn'tinherently bad, right? Teaching
learning English isn'tinherently bad, you know? Doing
International Education isn'tinherently bad, but when it's
connected to the, to the string-There are strings attached to
the ways that we're doing it.
(28:53):
And we have to be critical ofthat, we have to acknowledge the
reality of that. And with that,right, like, we have to create
resources, like themulticultural U.S.. And so, you
know, while this project didn'tcome to fruition, the essence of
it lives on in the folks thatwere contributing to it, and in
my work, and the goal is to makesure that, you know, the work
that is of this essence, is, youknow, created everywhere that
(29:17):
you know, Fulbright exists or,you know, anywhere that
international education exists
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (29:22):
For folks in the English speaking
world, because I think sometimeseducation is kind of an idea is
always seen as like, inherentlypositive. And what I hear you
saying is ultimately, somethingwe all need to deal with, which
is, harm is harm, whetherintentional or intentional. And
it's not just about individualaction, it's about the systems
in which even that teachinghappens. You know, so I always
(29:43):
try end these Fullbright Forwardpodcasts with sort of two
questions or a few closingquestions and everything. Is
there anything just inparticular, that you just want
to make sure the audience takesaway from our conversation?
Jonathan Peraza Campos (29:58):
We don't need allies. We need
co-conspirators. That is one ofmy biggest like pieces of advice
because no people with privilegeacross privilege are not just
white folks. But acrossprivilege always ask how can I
use my privilege. Maybe you needto give up your privilege, and
you need to work with people toabolish and eliminate the
structures that give you yourprivilege? We have to abolish
privilege. Nobody should haveany upper hand over another, so
(30:20):
that's one piece of advice.
Another concluding thought withthat is I want to share a quote
from Christopher Emdin, thescholar who wrote the book For
White Folks Who Teach in theHood... and the Rest of Y'all
Too, he has a quote that Ishared at the enrichment seminar
that I share with all teachersthat I'm working with. And it
goes, "the way that a teacherteaches can be traced directly
to the way that the teacher hasbeen taught. The time will come
(30:43):
when teachers must askthemselves, if they follow the
mold, or blaze a new trail.
There are serious risks thatcome with this decision. It
essentially boils down towhether one chooses to damage to
the system or the student."
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (31:02):
And really, I guess, like, you know,
if you want to get any updates,like what sort of what
currently, are there things youcurrently are doing that still?
Yeah, what do you kind ofcurrently engaged with and
everything as you've now aftercompleting the ETA-ship, and now
I guess, also considering a yearof pandemic and, and, and, you
know, what, what looks like insome cases, you know, some
changes to come perhaps.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (31:23):
Oof well I'm busy, I do a lot. But I
mean, I, I'm buildingeducational programs in metro
Atlanta, where I live, but alsofor the greater Southeast. I'm
very big about teaching, Latinesand global South people, our
histories, right, of oppressionand resistance. I teach
(31:45):
political education to youth.
I'm very invested in the youthorganizing and migrant racial
justice, educational justice,organizing. So I'm an
abolitionist educator, and soI'm training teachers how to be
how to work organized with theirstudents and with the families
that they work with, to buildthe education system that we all
deserve, right? I'm organizing alot, I'm also struck trying to
(32:05):
start a Latino Studiesapartments in the South, because
we don't, we have very few. SoI'm trying to start Latino
Studies programs in the Southand trying to create just
grassroots programs to teachpolitical education, cultural
education, especially during thepandemic. Like our kids are
falling behind. Our kids arebeing disenfranchised by virtual
learning, a lot of them right?
(32:26):
And so finding ways around thatand doing mutual aid work,
trying to refine the way that wedo mutual aid, to really be
about building power withpeople, and having people's
basic needs met during thepandemic, corona-capitalism
crisis. So really organizingaround mutual aid, building
education for us by us. I'mstill working with Central
American news. I'm concluding mymaster's program at Georgia
(32:50):
State University in SocialFoundations of Education. So you
know, I'm doing a lot ofresearch work, a lot of
organizing work, a lot ofeducational work. Because, you
know, I'm building the worldthat I want us all to live in.
I'm very invested in that. I'minvested in collective
liberation. And these are justthe few ways that I'm trying to
(33:10):
make that happen, right,building power with us, for us,
by us.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (33:15):
Thank you so much for your time. I
really appreciate this.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (33:18):
Thank you so much. It was a great
conversation.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (33:21):
And thank you so much for listening
to this episode of FulbrightForward. Remember that you can
subscribe to Fulbright Forwardthrough your favorite podcast
app like Apple podcasts orSpotify, as well as follow the
podcast on Instagram at@fulbrightdiversitycoordinator.
The kind of critical reflectionJonathan and I discussed this
episode is not always an easyprocess. As a white U.S. man who
got his start in teachingEnglish abroad at times it has
(33:42):
been difficult realizing where Imay have caused more harm than I
thought with a lesson plan or anidea, or in grappling with the
privileged opportunities being aU.S. citizen and English speaker
have granted me. The point hereis not about shame but rather
accountability. Owning ourerrors, opening ourselves up to
learn new ways of being andunlearn old ones, and welcoming
critical conversations on therealities of oppressive
(34:03):
histories and actions are allneeded in the work towards a
critical praxis. And we mustremember critical theories
abolition work, these are nottools of destruction. They are
pathways of creation andabundance that make more spaces
physically and figuratively forall people, especially those
marginalized by systems ofoppression, to realize our
interconnectedness and ourcollective power. And while the
(34:25):
themes of today's conversationswere on the English language
classroom, we can imagine andneed this work in all areas of
what we do. As Jonathan noted,this kind of change is not an
overnight process, but it iswithin our grasp, if we are
willing. Again, I'm JeremyGombin-Sperling Fulbright
America's diversity inclusionliaison. Be well stay safe, and
until next time.
In her text race Empire, and
English Language Teachingscholar Dr. Suhanthie Motha when
discussing the future of Englishteaching writes, "traditional
narratives about the promises ofEnglish are not
unproblematically true. We needto instead offer multiple
readings of what happens whenEnglish is learned, of what
happened to an individual whenshe or he learns English, of
(00:25):
what happened to the world whenentire populations learn
English, and to more cohesivelyconnect these understandings
about English to the effects ofracism, empire, and students'
political action and agency. Isit enough for schools to merely
teach children language, toinitiate them into the forms of
English that will further themeconomically and equip them to
make a living, disregarding thedevelopment of their first
(00:46):
languages? Or do students needmore?" As she and many scholars
argue, we must teach English ina critical manner, one that
recognizes English's economicand social benefits, and also
one that acknowledges thepolitical power English
possesses in a global frame, inparticular, the role that
English has had in securing thegeopolitical power of countries
(01:07):
like the United States. Whathowever, does this form of
teaching look like in practice?
And what do we need in order torealize a critical English
teaching ethos? Welcome toanother episode of Fulbright
Forward, a Diversity Podcast. Myname is Jeremy Gombin-Sperling,
the Fulbright Diversity andInclusion Liaison for the
Western Hemisphere programs.
Today's episode of the podcastis number four from the Western
(01:28):
Hemisphere region, and the firstof a few episodes focused on
unpacking English and languageteaching. Today's episode
features ETA alum to GuatemalaJonathan Peraza Campos, a U.S.
Salvadoran-Guatemalan educator,organizer, abolitionist thinker,
and Central American scholarwhose work focuses on organizing
around racial, immigrant andeducational justice, on
(01:49):
providing a critical andmultifaceted education to Latinx
youth throughout the Atlantametro area, and to building
bridges built on solidarity andconnection between communities
in Central America and U.S.
Central Americans. On today'sepisode, Jonathan helps us
explore the need to redefine andreimagine U.S. English teaching
abroad, as he puts it, "todisrupt perceptions that the
United States is a white,wealthy and perfect English
(02:12):
speaking country by exposingthem to the multiracial,
multicultural and multilingualdiversity in history of the
U.S." Through this discussion,we reflect on how Jonathan
navigated his ETA-ship as a gay,first-generation, male
Fulbrighter with heritage in thecountry in which he taught, how
we implemented a criticalEnglish teaching practices with
the students, and what any of uscan do to move us towards a more
(02:33):
politically conscious Englishteaching world, where the full
humanity of our students inourselves is celebrated, and
exclusionary narratives arequestioned and dismantled.
Jonathan, thank you so much forbeing part of the podcast, we
really appreciate you beinghere.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (02:49):
Thank you for having me, really
excited to be here.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperlin (02:52):
This episode is really about learning
more about you, yourself, yourbackground, and more about your
experience as an ETA inGuatemala and the kind of
everything that's been part ofthe experience for you. So,
before we dive into any detailsabout your experience on the
grant, please tell us more aboutwho you are.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (03:09):
My name is Jonathan Peraza Campos and I
am based in Atlanta, but myheart belongs to Central America
and the U.S. South. I am a firstgeneration college graduate. I'm
from a working class immigrantfamily, raised by a single
mother from El Salvador, but myroots are from El Salvador and
Guatemala. So I'm very proudlyCentral American. And I've been
(03:31):
an educator for the past fewyears. I've been in research, as
you know, trained as anacademic, doing research and
teaching and organizing morethan anything. I'm in the
struggle. I'm in the strugglefor abolition, for anti-racism
for anti-imperialism. Everythingthat I am channeled into my work
because the personal is, ofcourse, political. And that
(03:51):
looks like educational work forme, as well as research work.
I'm involved in variousprojects, to organize Latinx in
the south and for racial andimmigrant justice, educational
justice. But I'm very connectedto the Central American
community in the U.S. andtransnationally. Because we're
building, I'm really invested inbuilding a global and U.S. South
(04:13):
that are interconnected witheach other, across borders and
across struggles. And all of thework that I do is kind of
channeling into that kind ofmentality and that politic.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (04:23):
Thank you so much for sharing that and
just giving us a little bit moreof a sense of who you are. And
also really like kind of thepolitical analysis that sounds
like you're applying to all thework that you're doing and how
you're thinking about the world.
You know, my next question isreally about what sort of led
you to the Fulbright experienceto pursue the ETA post in
Guatemala. And I'm also curious,and you may also touch on this
in a moment, like how inapplying to become an ETA, how
(04:45):
also this sort of consciousnessanalysis of the world was also
developing.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (04:52):
So I was a student, an undergraduate
student at Emory University inDecatur, Georgia, where I was a
Sociology major. And you know,but I was also doing a lot of
like Ethnic Studies work, a lotof like African American Studies
Latino St-, well, I was studyingLatino Studies and Central
American Studies independentlybecause Emory has yet to create
a program. But we're fightingfor that still. But I mean, my
(05:14):
analysis comes from abolitionistwork from Black Studies from
Latin American and CentralAmerican Studies. And I'm an
organizer involved in leftist,you know, organizing. We want a
different world, and so that'sreally the analysis that I come
from. But I got to applying to aFulbright because I had two, um,
two folks at Emory, Dr. MeganFriddle, and Dr. Liz Alexander,
(05:38):
who worked in the NationalScholarships and Fellowships
program at Emory and lateremployed me after I got the
Fulbright to help others applyto um, Fulbright. But they were
watching out for me, becausethey saw my potential. And they
saw that somebody like me frommy backgrounds, right, like a
gay first-generation Latino,who, you know, very few of us
get to get into Fulbright,right, very few of us get these
opportunities. And so they, theysaw my talents and my value, and
(06:01):
they wanted me to approach thisopportunity. And that's how I
ended up applying. And theyhelped prepare me and helped
just develop my applications.
And so I really, you know, Ihave a lot of political stances
that kind of contradict whatFulbright stands for, which I
definitely want to talk about.
But I am a scholar of CentralAmerican Studies and Latino
Studies and migration and racismin the continent. And so, you
(06:23):
know, I got to read all thesebooks, watch all these movies,
read all these articles, andjust my own family history and
stories and formed my analysisand my, my knowledge as a
Central American Studiesscholar, but there's no better
way to become a scholar of aregion and other people than
being in the region and with thepeople. And also kind of, I had
a self interest in that, youknow, I grew up Salvadoran with
(06:45):
my mom, but my father, who I didnot grow up with is Guatemalan,
but, and I don't claim myfather, but I claim my culture.
And I wanted to learn about thatside of myself that I was not
exposed to, and go intoGuatemala on the U.S.
government's dollar was a goodway to do that. You know, all
these white kids from richfamilies get to go to my
homeland, you know, wheneverthey want, like, I wanted the
(07:06):
opportunity to go see myhomeland. That's what led me to
apply to this. And you know,it's had a lot of benefits as
well as downfalls with it.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (07:14):
Can you share a little bit more
about just like, the kind oflogistics right, like, where you
went, when you were inGuatemala? Like what the school
was, like, just kind of you canillustrate the image of maybe
the first day or just or just,you know, where you were doing
your work.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (07:27):
So um, I was based in Coban, Alta
Verapaz, Guatemala, which islike the middle like a North
Central kind of part of Guate.
Umm, it's, you know, amountainous region, pretty
rural, outside of GuatemalaCity, which is like the urban
center of Guatemala, but I gotto, you know, I was based there
for most of my time there. Andit was, you know, a quiet, slow
(07:48):
paced town, very beautiful, verypeaceful, and it was great. It
was a great experience. It's avery Indigenous town also. So
you see the ways that, you know,the indigenous and Latino
cultures kind of mix and theways that you knowlooks how it
feels. It was honestly bogglingto see Indigenous people just
walking around in their ownland, while the U.S. has
reservations for our Indigenouspeoples, right? Like they're
(08:10):
landlocked by the U.S.
government. And we don't seeIndigenous peoples in the U.S.
like we do in Guatemala. So thatwas a very boggling experience
for sure, to see the ways thatIndigenous life has carried on
in the way that it has, notwithout its own problems, of
course, but it was verydifferent for sure, and that
part of Guate. But I got to seeGuate. I got to travel. That was
(08:31):
one of my privileges as a U.S.
Embassy representative. Like Igot to see more of the country
than Guatemalans themselves, Igot to travel and give conf-,
give be at conferences, givepresentations to Teachers of
English and Social Studies, youknow, about how to teach U.S.
culture in a critical anddiverse way, in an inclusive
way. And you know I, there arebeautiful people that work in
the U.S. Embassy, who areGuatemalan. There are people who
(08:54):
have benefited from theprograms, the U.S. Embassy
programs that I worked for, theaccess programs, you know,
beautiful people, amazingeducators. I learned so much
from like 16 year old educatorswho are trained by these
programs, like the best teachersI've ever met. And they taught
me a lot on how to be a muchbetter educator. So you know, I
got to really see Guate andlive in like, share space and be
in community with people inCoban, especially but across
(09:18):
Guate, and that was beautiful.
I came in as in like anoutsider. But I was an
insider-outsider at the sametime because I'm a native
Spanish speaker I grew upspeaking Spanish, right. A lot
of my Salvadoran and Latinoculture that I grew up with in
the US, translated very easilyinto the Guatemalan context. We
eat a lot of the similar foods.
So I mean, the food was great.
(09:38):
Like I love Guatemalan food,like it's very similar to
Salvadoran food. I did not feellike a stranger. I felt like I
was coming to visit like someaunties for like a year. That's
what it really felt like, and itwas great. It was great. But it
was you know, apart from beingbeautiful for those reasons, it
was also really painful. BecauseI'm a Central American Studies
scholar. I know my history. Iknow the history of U.S.
(09:59):
imperialism, and interveventionin the region, and how, you
know, the government devastatedour countries intervened in our
countries for its owngeopolitical economic interests.
And so I had a lot of guiltthroughout the entire year that
led to depression. Honestly, Iwas very depressed and hel-,
held a lot of guilt most of theyear, because although I was
having this great experience ofliving in Guatemala, getting to
(10:21):
know the history and culture ata much, much closer context,
right, I also knew that I was apart of the soft power of the
U.S. Empire with, you know, theETA program, and so forth. But I
also needed to see my homelandfor myself. And this was an
opportunity to do so. And I wasliving a very privileged life.
The stipends that I would get,you know, I was seeing more
(10:43):
money than my family ever saw intheir life as a U.S., as a ETA
fellow. And it was veryinteresting to be like an
insider-outsider like to come inwith the privilege and the power
of U.S. empire, but also being agay Central American in a
homophobic country, likeGuatemala. Like I had to go back
into the closet for my ownsafety, which is a very
difficult experience. And itreally was sobering, because I'm
(11:06):
used to being gay as hell inAtlanta, but being gay in Guate
is, you know, it's, it's a, it'sa hazard. But I got to build
community with queer and transfolks when I was down there too.
And that was beautiful as wellto just be gay Guatemala and
being gay, Guatemalan circlesand and trans Guatemalan
circles.
I'm really, I really aimed atapproaching language teaching
(11:28):
from a critical approach byteaching about not English, but
Global Englishes. These are the,this is the history of the
English language. This is why wespeak it in the U.S., why it's
spoken in Jamaica and Africancountries, in Southeast Asia.
Alright, like these are whythey're official languages or
like common languages in thesecountries. There's a history of
colonialism, of enslavement, ofgenocide, that brought these
(11:50):
languages all over the world,and is one of the reasons this
language is being hypervalued inthe Guatemalan context. Language
learning and learning othercultures is beautiful. It is,
but we have to understand whyone language and one culture is
being put on a pedestal overothers, where people prefer to
learn English, rather than oneof the 22 or 24 um different
(12:10):
indigenous languages in your owncountry. Right? The fact that
English a foreign language isbeing hypervalued in this
context is a problem and we haveto talk about, I think about it.
I taught about Black LivesMatter, and a lot of my
indigenous kids, right, whounderstand anti-Indigenous
racism, in Guatemala reallyresonated with Black Lives
Matter, because they foundconnections, right? So I was
very intentional about teachingan antiracist, critical history
(12:33):
of the U.S. Oflike, this is whatwas done to Black and Brown and
Asian and Indigenous peoples inthe U.S., but this is also how
we fought back. What connectionsdo you see in your context in
your culture, right? And so youknow, you have to find ways to
embed pedagogies and curricular,curricular choices that subvert
the American narrative, themaster narrative, we call it in,
(12:55):
you know, curriculum studies.
There is a master narrative. AndETAs have a habit of exporting,
you know, the master narrativeto, you know, as ETAs to their
English language program. Like,don't treat Black History Month,
like the flavor of the month inFebruary. Teach Black History
all the time, teach AsianAmerican history all the time,
teach Latino and Indigenoushistory all the time. You know,
I teach everybody. Teacheverybody's culture, because we
(13:18):
are all part of the fabric ofwhat the U.S. is. And so it is
it becomes the choice of theeducator of the ETA, to decide,
am I going to perpetuate themaster narrative? Or am I going
to give these kids the tools tobe critical and conscious of
different identities, of howcomplex and diverse the U.S.
really is. And I don't thinkthat Fulbright is malicious, but
(13:39):
part of a system is thesometimes we don't know that we
are perpetuating these things.
We don't know what we don't knowsometimes. And I think that's a
big part of what ETAs bring withthem.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (13:51):
One thing I'm also thinking about
with English teaching, as well,is something I've struggled with
at times, too, is, you know,both how to construct the
critical community forconversation, and sometimes
facing the reality of, oh!Because of the economic
realities in which we live,there are folks who are in some
ways saying they need this ormay actually need this English
(14:12):
for the potential of havingaccess to resources. And so I'm
curious for yourself, what wasbalancin-, if that if that was
something that either crossedyour path or occurred for you
while abroad? How did younavigate that?
Jonathan Peraza Campos (14:25):
That's, that's and that's real, right?
Like, folks were attracted tothese U.S. Embassy programs. I
taught them English because itdoes have material outcomes that
improve their wages, improvetheir occu-, their job
opportunities, their payopportunities, right? Like they
need these things for their ownsurvival. And you can't shame
somebody for like, hav-, livingwith that reality. Right? That's
(14:48):
just the reality that folks livein. That's the reality that all
of my kids lived in, um, inGuatemala like they needed this
extra leg up in a country wherethere are scarce jobs for people
that you know, don't have aneducation right? Like you- it's
really hard to get a job inGuatemala, it's really hard to
you know, but call centers arebooming. The call center
industry is really booming inGuatemala right that is a job
(15:09):
opportunity that a lot of peoplecan go into. And you know, the
Access programs have greatopportunities to teach students
who had advanced English how toget involved in the tourism
industry with practical trainingalong with their English
education. And so, you know, Idon't think that it's a matter
of either or. I think that wehave to do all those things, to
you know, give these kids a legup, to give these folks you
(15:31):
know, to help them use Englishto maximize their professional
and their educationalopportunities, which is a goal,
the goal of the access programs.
But you know, just a referenceinto my some of my professors
and role models like Dr. GholdyMuhammad and Dr. Bettina Love,
like, we have to be teachers whoalso are abolitionists, and also
our anti racists, we can stillachieve academic success, which
(15:52):
in the context of the FulbrightETA program is English language
development, we can still dothat, and like help children
reach that, that, those goalsright from a, to better material
outcomes. Well, we can alsoteach in a way that enhances
criticality, right? A criticalsense of power and oppression,
and also identity development.
(16:13):
And so you know, it's not aneither/or it's are you willing
to put in the work to givechildren a full holistic
humanizing education? And Ithink that, that's something
that we really need to look to.
Look to black women look, tominoritized people who have been
developing theories andeducation about what a
humanizing and criticaleducation for everybody's
humanity, everybody's liberationlooks like, because English
(16:34):
language programs severely needthis kind of intervention.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (16:38):
No, absolutely. I mean, I think, I
think especially, you know, withthe platform that English
teaching programs have by beingessentially what I'll kind of
label a desired commodity, andbecause of the sort of the
global power structure, inwhich it operates, there is sort
of this platform already to bedoing this kind of critical
work. How do we bring incritical thought and perspective
as folks who are owning our U.S.
power, in a way that's notimposition? How do we sort of
(17:03):
ensure that we are building botha community of knowledge that
welcomes the perspectives andideas around areas around
liberatory thinking and processand practice and pedagogy from
the folks we're working with,rather than, in some cases,
potentially reproducing asimilar form of "this is from
the US it's good," even if itmay be from a more kind of
(17:25):
critical liberatory perspective?
Does that make sense to thequestion?
Jonathan Peraza Campos (17:30):
I think so. I think I understand what
you're saying. I mean, I thinkthat a big part of that is
recognizing that you are not anexpert, right? You are there to
learn just as much as you arethere to teach. And you should
be very intentional aboutcreating a curriculum that gives
the learners you are engagingwithin the country, with
opportunities to teach you asmuch as you were there to teach
(17:51):
them. Right, you have toacknowledge that you are not
there to, you know, and this ispulling from critical
educational theories, right fromPaulo Freire, and bell hooks,
right? Like, you're, you're notthere to deposit knowledge into
anybody's empty head, like,there is already knowledge
living there that you have toincorporate into the educational
space. They have so much toteach you and you are there to
(18:12):
listen to them as much as theyare there to listen to you to
see what you have to share. Andtogether we produce knowledg.
Together, we produce a neweducational setting, right, we
create a third space to use, youknow, theoretical terms, right?
Where our different worlds cometogether and mash together in
ways that we you know, to pullfrom the Zapatista saying, like
(18:33):
a world where many worlds canfit. I think that there is a
very important need for the ETAprogram to really re-evaluate
and restructure, radicallyrestructure their teacher
training. We had a great teachertraining when we went to our
orientation in Texas, but youknow, beyond that teach us, you
know, educational models aboutpopular education, right? How do
(18:54):
we come into a space and teachin a way where we also allow our
students to become teachers tous? How do we learn to create
curriculum and lesson plans,where we can mesh all of our
knowledge together and not justcome in with, you know, my U.S.
English language knowledge thatyou are going to learn because
you need this for your benefit?
That is imperialism. That isimperialism, you know, build
community with others who are inthe same page as you cause
(19:17):
community is important in thiswork. It cannot be just a me
individual, like trying tochange the system. It's like all
of us, right? We all have to beon the same page, we all have to
be in dialogue with each other,we all have to learn from each
other and like, bring ourknowledges together, you know,
with other ETAs and with thefolks that we're teaching and
learning from in our sites,right? We have to be very
intentional and critical in howwe approach these things.
(19:40):
Because if we're not teaching ahumanizing education, then what
we are doing is a dehumanizingeducation. And who wants to be
who wants to be somebody thatdehumanizes other people whether
they intend to or not?
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (19:53):
But one thing I guess I'm also
hearing which I feel like isimportant is is sort of this
question of what I'm going tokind of label vulnerability, I
think in my own experience ofboth trying to challenge myself,
like, you know, navigating spaceas a queer, as a queer Jewish
person, while also, you know,understanding my whiteness
abroad in different places, hasalso meant having to, you know,
(20:14):
access my vulnerability. And Ithink what you shared is like,
understand what you don't know.
And seek to know. I'm curiousfor you, if it comes into play,
how does even your ownexperiences with, with learning
vulnerability or sharingvulnerability or that with
others come into this piece thatyou just share it around,
building this community ofpractice?
Jonathan Peraza Campos (20:37):
Oof, vulnerability is hard.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperlin (20:40):
It's tough.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (20:41):
It's hard, like as a man, and as a
man with a lot of trauma fromlike, the civil wars that my
family endured, right? The U.S.
funded civil wars that my familyendured. Being a gay man in a
homophobic world, like, oof,vulnerability is hard. I'm still
learning it to be honest. It's alot of unlearning, you know,
that men and cis people and youknow, we have to do and just
(21:03):
people that have trauma, right,like unlearning, and relearning
how to heal and know ourselvesand be vulnerable. It is
important, right? It isimportant work. And that's part
of a humanizing education too,right, centering emotions and
centering healing. And you know,I'm still a student of this
process. But I mean, Idefinitely felt that
(21:26):
vulnerability. And, because, youknow, I definitely encountered
like, I was in a veryinteresting space where people
saw me and they saw a Guatemalana Central American, but once
they heard me speak in Spanish,they're like, Huh, you're not
from here, huh? Right. And youknow, and it was even
invalidating sometimes. It wasunderstandable. But it was
invalidating right? Or peoplewill tell me Oh, you sound
(21:48):
Mexican. And it's like, ya know,like, I grew up around Mexicans,
like, I didn't grow up aroundmany Central Americans. Like,
you know, as people got to knowme, and people heard me use my
slang and people saw the waythat I ate their foods like, and
enjoy them just as much as theydid, they're like, okay, like,
he's, he's definitely one of us.
He's different, but he's one ofus. I think they're really
navigating that contradictoryspace of being a Central
(22:09):
American from the U.S. Empirelike that put me in a vulnerable
position where I really had toreevaluate myself. And I really
had to sit with my privilege assomebody from the empire. I had
to sit with my class privilegegetting money from the U.S.
empire living a relativelylavish life. In Guatemala, I had
to sit with my privilege ofbeing a white Guatemalan,
because there were racialdynamics that I had to navigate,
(22:30):
you know. Like, and when I speakabout whiteness, like I'm also
talking about myself, becauseafter gringos that work in what
they like, I'm the next personin the in the ladder, you know
what I mean? Like, like, areally white skinned, light
skinned Guatemala speak Spanish.
I'm not indigenous. You know, Iwas a white Guatemalan, or
white, Central American,teaching English. And, you know,
speaking Spanish to Indigenouspeople of Guatemala, who are
(22:51):
oppressed by people who comefrom my positionality, who are
from Guatemala, right? Like,they're my students were also
under the boot of colonialracism, from people who look
like me, who come from mypositionality in Guatemala. So
like, and I'm grateful for thisexperience. Because in being
vulnerable in that way, like, Ihad to just bring my
complexities together into oneroom, and be like, "Alright,
(23:14):
y'all, like, check yourself."You know, like constantly
because I'm a man in apatriarchal society. I am a
imperial, imperialist-adjacentas a Fulbrighter. I am a, you
know, somebody from the U.S. an,an English speaking, like, you
know, well bilingual, right,like having but being like
bilingual, in my upbringing,like, that comes with a set of
(23:35):
privileges of its own, right?
Being a college-educated personfrom the U.S., that is another
set of privileges, right? Solike, I think there's a lot of
vulnerability and acknowledging,okay, like, this is who I am.
And this is how I move aroundthe world. And I have to be
honest about it, but alsounderstanding like, you know,
this is, these are my weakpoints. Like, as a gay person,
like, I'm physically vulnerable,I am psychologically vulnerable
(23:57):
in this homophobic society wherelike, trans folks are lynched by
gangs, you know, like in ElSalvador and Guatemala. Like, I
could not, I could not havegrown up a healthy gay man in my
mother's country, or in myfather's country, the way that I
did in the U.S., right? And Ihad to live in the closet, you
know, where I had to, like,tread the line very carefully,
because it was a differentcontext where, you know,
(24:19):
violence looks different, maybenot looks different, but I was
more susceptible to violence ina certain way in that context,
right? So there's a lot ofvulnerabilities that come with
being a marginalized person, butthere's a vulnerability that has
to happen if you are in aposition of power, like I was,
like, Fulbrighters are, we are,coming into a site, right? And
(24:39):
we have to sit with that andacknowledge that and figure out
how do we share power? How do wedistribute our power as much as
we can? It's not going to bepossible in its entirety, but we
can do what we can to subvertand disrupt the ways we acquire
privilege and power throughFullbright through imperialism
through whoever we are andwhatever power we bring into,
like the spaces that we'reworking in. And so this is a PSA
(25:02):
for white folks, right, who getsto go to our countries, like. Be
aware of how much space you takeup and be aware of the privilege
it is to not have to feel thatdread of feeling like you're
hurting your own people. You getto think of yourself as a
missionary, maybe you get tothink of yourself as benefiting
another community, while we arecoming back to our communities
in order to build bridges forour collective liberation. That
(25:25):
is the mindset that many of uscome with or to just find
ourselves, understand ourselves.
Like our experience as people ofdiasporas and people from
immigrant families is comingback to our homelands to know
ourselves.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (25:37):
So when I just want to say I really
appreciate that answer, I thinkone of my intentions and asking
questions also recognizing thatany moment, especially in a
conversation of vulnerability,it could also welcome the
possibility of reliving anypiece of trauma. So I just kind
of want to like, both add andname that and appreciate you
sharing what you shared. And Ithink also, the piece that often
folks have when it comes toconfronting privilege is moving
(26:00):
beyond the confrontation, itgoing beyond just saying, Oh, I
know I have privilege, now what?
It sounds like a lot of yourwork, it feels like it's been a
lot of that well, well, here'swhat! Because sitting in that
moment of kind of a frozen, thisis not benefiting anyone in that
moment.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (26:16):
Exactly.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (26:16):
I know project that you've
mentioned already a little bitand kind of alluded to, I
believe the name of the projectis called the Multicultural U.S.
(US), applying Ethnic Studiesand Global Englishes,
international English, Englishlanguage education. I would just
like to know more about like,what inspired this project, sort
of what the goals of thisproject have been, and I guess
(26:37):
I'm curious to, if any pieces ofthat project have kind of come
back with you into your workwhere you are now.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (26:44):
I very much try to carry the essence of
what I was teaching and how Iwas teaching into this project,
the Multicultural U.S., theMulticultural us, which was kind
of like a curriculum book that Istarted. And I like recruited
other folks of color and othercritical folks that were
invested in disrupting themaster narrative, right,
teaching about the multiculturalU.S., us. And we do that through
(27:06):
ethnic studies, we do thatthrough global englishes. Right?
We have to learn from criticallanguage scholars, right? We
have to learn aboutraciolinguistics, we have to
learn about sociolinguistics, wehave to learn about, you know,
the history of Black folks ofAsian American folks of Latinx
folks, of Central Americans, of,of Indigenous peoples across the
continent, right, MiddleEasterners, we have to learn
(27:27):
about everybody. And, a lot, andyou can easily do that, while
you're also teaching English,it's just a matter of
intentionality. And using themodels and theories that work.
And so this project aims tobring it all together, right?
You have to teach culture andhistory along with language,
because language does not existin a vacuum. Language is a
product of history and cultureand is ever-evolving because of,
(27:48):
you know, developments in ourhistories and cultures, right?
And while it had been started.
And while I had recruited agroup of just amazing women of
color, and friends that, youknow, were ready to throw down
and help develop that with me,because it just became too much
of a project for myself. And youknow they really took it over,
and I'm glad because I justdidn't have capacity after my
grant ended, and I was back inthe U.S. So they took it over.
(28:08):
But because of the pandemic, andbecause Fulbright contracts were
cut, were cut early, right, alot of folks just ended up
coming back home, it just didn'tcome to fruition. But just the
essence of this project is verymuch carried on in my work. I'm
going to go back to Guatemala,I'm going to go back to El
Salvador. You know, I'm gonna goback into the global south and
bring in, you know, myperspectives and hybridize them
(28:30):
with local critical perspectivesof the folks at these sites so
that we can we can create a neweducation, a new way of you
know-- teaching English isn'tinherently bad, right? Teaching
learning English isn'tinherently bad, you know? Doing
International Education isn'tinherently bad, but when it's
connected to the, to the string-There are strings attached to
the ways that we're doing it.
(28:53):
And we have to be critical ofthat, we have to acknowledge the
reality of that. And with that,right, like, we have to create
resources, like themulticultural U.S.. And so, you
know, while this project didn'tcome to fruition, the essence of
it lives on in the folks thatwere contributing to it, and in
my work, and the goal is to makesure that, you know, the work
that is of this essence, is, youknow, created everywhere that
(29:17):
you know, Fulbright exists or,you know, anywhere that
international education exists
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (29:22):
For folks in the English speaking
world, because I think sometimeseducation is kind of an idea is
always seen as like, inherentlypositive. And what I hear you
saying is ultimately, somethingwe all need to deal with, which
is, harm is harm, whetherintentional or intentional. And
it's not just about individualaction, it's about the systems
in which even that teachinghappens. You know, so I always
(29:43):
try end these Fullbright Forwardpodcasts with sort of two
questions or a few closingquestions and everything. Is
there anything just inparticular, that you just want
to make sure the audience takesaway from our conversation?
Jonathan Peraza Campos (29:58):
We don't need allies. We need
co-conspirators. That is one ofmy biggest like pieces of advice
because no people with privilegeacross privilege are not just
white folks. But acrossprivilege always ask how can I
use my privilege. Maybe you needto give up your privilege, and
you need to work with people toabolish and eliminate the
structures that give you yourprivilege? We have to abolish
privilege. Nobody should haveany upper hand over another, so
(30:20):
that's one piece of advice.
Another concluding thought withthat is I want to share a quote
from Christopher Emdin, thescholar who wrote the book For
White Folks Who Teach in theHood... and the Rest of Y'all
Too, he has a quote that Ishared at the enrichment seminar
that I share with all teachersthat I'm working with. And it
goes, "the way that a teacherteaches can be traced directly
to the way that the teacher hasbeen taught. The time will come
(30:43):
when teachers must askthemselves, if they follow the
mold, or blaze a new trail.
There are serious risks thatcome with this decision. It
essentially boils down towhether one chooses to damage to
the system or the student."
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (31:02):
And really, I guess, like, you know,
if you want to get any updates,like what sort of what
currently, are there things youcurrently are doing that still?
Yeah, what do you kind ofcurrently engaged with and
everything as you've now aftercompleting the ETA-ship, and now
I guess, also considering a yearof pandemic and, and, and, you
know, what, what looks like insome cases, you know, some
changes to come perhaps.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (31:23):
Oof well I'm busy, I do a lot. But I
mean, I, I'm buildingeducational programs in metro
Atlanta, where I live, but alsofor the greater Southeast. I'm
very big about teaching, Latinesand global South people, our
histories, right, of oppressionand resistance. I teach
(31:45):
political education to youth.
I'm very invested in the youthorganizing and migrant racial
justice, educational justice,organizing. So I'm an
abolitionist educator, and soI'm training teachers how to be
how to work organized with theirstudents and with the families
that they work with, to buildthe education system that we all
deserve, right? I'm organizing alot, I'm also struck trying to
(32:05):
start a Latino Studiesapartments in the South, because
we don't, we have very few. SoI'm trying to start Latino
Studies programs in the Southand trying to create just
grassroots programs to teachpolitical education, cultural
education, especially during thepandemic. Like our kids are
falling behind. Our kids arebeing disenfranchised by virtual
learning, a lot of them right?
(32:26):
And so finding ways around thatand doing mutual aid work,
trying to refine the way that wedo mutual aid, to really be
about building power withpeople, and having people's
basic needs met during thepandemic, corona-capitalism
crisis. So really organizingaround mutual aid, building
education for us by us. I'mstill working with Central
American news. I'm concluding mymaster's program at Georgia
(32:50):
State University in SocialFoundations of Education. So you
know, I'm doing a lot ofresearch work, a lot of
organizing work, a lot ofeducational work. Because, you
know, I'm building the worldthat I want us all to live in.
I'm very invested in that. I'minvested in collective
liberation. And these are justthe few ways that I'm trying to
(33:10):
make that happen, right,building power with us, for us,
by us.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (33:15):
Thank you so much for your time. I
really appreciate this.
Jonathan Peraza Campos (33:18):
Thank you so much. It was a great
conversation.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (33:21):
And thank you so much for listening
to this episode of FulbrightForward. Remember that you can
subscribe to Fulbright Forwardthrough your favorite podcast
app like Apple podcasts orSpotify, as well as follow the
podcast on Instagram at@fulbrightdiversitycoordinator.
The kind of critical reflectionJonathan and I discussed this
episode is not always an easyprocess. As a white U.S. man who
got his start in teachingEnglish abroad at times it has
(33:42):
been difficult realizing where Imay have caused more harm than I
thought with a lesson plan or anidea, or in grappling with the
privileged opportunities being aU.S. citizen and English speaker
have granted me. The point hereis not about shame but rather
accountability. Owning ourerrors, opening ourselves up to
learn new ways of being andunlearn old ones, and welcoming
critical conversations on therealities of oppressive
(34:03):
histories and actions are allneeded in the work towards a
critical praxis. And we mustremember critical theories
abolition work, these are nottools of destruction. They are
pathways of creation andabundance that make more spaces
physically and figuratively forall people, especially those
marginalized by systems ofoppression, to realize our
interconnectedness and ourcollective power. And while the
(34:25):
themes of today's conversationswere on the English language
classroom, we can imagine andneed this work in all areas of
what we do. As Jonathan noted,this kind of change is not an
overnight process, but it iswithin our grasp, if we are
willing. Again, I'm JeremyGombin-Sperling Fulbright
America's diversity inclusionliaison. Be well stay safe, and
until next time.
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