CEO John Sheehan - Mind Springs Health - Full Circle Podcast with The Christi Reece Group

Christi sits down with Mind Springs Health CEO, John Sheehan, to discuss the important topics of mental health, the services Mind Springs offers, and the changes they have been making to bring the best mental health care to Western Colorado.

Learn more about their services at their website.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):


Speaker 2 (00:06):
The Full Circle podcast, compelling interviews
and incredible tales fromColorado's Western Slope, from
the mountains to the desert.
Christy Reese and her team herefrom the Movers Shakers, and
characters of the Grand Valleyand surrounding mountain towns
that make the Western slope theplace we all love. You'll
learn, you'll laugh, you'lllove with the full circle.
Hello everyone, and welcomeback to the Full Circle

(00:27):
Podcast. I'm your host KristiReese, and I am excited and
honored today to welcome ourguest, Mr. John Sheehan , who
is the CEO of Minds SpringsHealth. Welcome, John . Thank

Speaker 3 (00:38):
You. Yeah , thanks for

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Having me. Yeah.
Really excited to have you herebecause there's a lot to talk
about in the mental healtharena. Um, Shira , who works at
your, who works at Mind SpringsMm-Hmm. had
contacted us about , um,talking to you during Mental
Health Awareness Month and inNovember, and we couldn't quite
make that happen. But , um, Ikind of wanna start off with

(01:00):
that because I think that it'sreally important to have some
awareness in the communityabout the, the services that
are available to people andwhat Mines Springs does. So,
can you start there? Sure.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
Um, mines Springs is what I would call a legacy
organization. It's a50-year-old nonprofit . It's
been around since , um, since alot of the , uh, old community
mental health centers formed ,um, really as a result of some
actions that the Kennedyadministration took. Oh , wow .
So it goes that far back. Um,it's, it's a really diverse
nonprofit in that we have alarge geography that we serve.

(01:33):
We serve the entire , um,western slope of Colorado. Um,
some 23,000 square miles.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
That's amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
It's a lot of , uh, it's a lot of square mile , but
there aren't a lot of people insome of those square miles, but
yes, . Um, but we dohave a lot of responsibility
and we have a lot ofresponsibility to deliver care
in a rural setting, which is alot harder than , um, than
doing it in an urban setting.
Mm-Hmm. . And sothat creates some challenges.
And , um, you know, you know ,some of those challenges I

(02:00):
inherited , uh, coming in and,and some of them , uh, we don't
see as challenges we see asreal opportunities. So,

Speaker 2 (02:05):
But the, the basis of the company that serves all
these communities began here inGrand Junction

Speaker 3 (02:10):
50 years ago. Yes.
Okay. Um, um, and I believe itwas Colorado West was the name
of the company. Mm-Hmm .
prior to , uh,being deviated as mine springs.
Mm-Hmm. . So it's, uh, it's got a long history.
Um, I think some of the bestprograms that we, we , we offer
are, are programs for childrenand families and , um, and for
adults . And , uh, and, and sothe , um, the Women's Circle

(02:33):
program is one program that we,that we offer that's a really
unique opportunity for women tobring their, their , um,
dependent children into carewith them. Um, it's a

Speaker 2 (02:42):
Oh , that's wonderful.

Speaker 3 (02:43):
It's , it's really a , a great family building
program. Uh , we've recentlyopened a psychiatric emergency
room at our West SpringsHospital location so that
anyone who's experiencing amental health crisis can go
there and find a safe , uh,place A state-of-the-Art
Facility to Mm-Hmm .
to find somebodyto talk to. Um , 'cause what
we're finding is a lot ofpeople post covid , um, are,

(03:05):
are, are getting themselvesinto situations emotionally ,
um, where unfortunately we'reseeing a rise in suicides. And
so we wanna make sure we've gotthe ability to intervene in
multiple ways Mm-Hmm.
to prevent thosethings from happening to not
just adults, but we've had alot of youth suicides,
unfortunately.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well , we know that's a part of our community
that we, we wanna change. Yeah. And , uh, thank you to your
organization for providingresources for people.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
It's something that I think , um, it's our, it's
our responsibility. It's therole that we have as mm-Hmm .
as the type oforganization that we are. We
can't prevent everything. Um ,but we can certainly do as much
as we possibly can and raisethe alarm bell to what's not
being done. Um , and, and I , Ithink that more than anything
will turn , uh, the resulthere. I think this is a , um,

(03:51):
this isn't a , a , a oneperson, one organization, one,
you know, one thing , uh, wrongtype situation. This is a , a
forest fire of multitude thatcomes

Speaker 2 (04:03):
From multi-layered

Speaker 3 (04:04):
For sure. Different directions. And, you know,
there are a lot of factors.
Mm-Hmm . , uh,pandemic doesn't help. Uh , but
we had a lot of factors thatwere not in our favor prior to
the pandemic as well. And, andthis has just sort of made
things a lot worse. And sowe're, we're bracing for that.
And I think as an organization,we want to sound that alarm and
say, Hey, as communities, wehave to align. We have to

(04:25):
create community healthalliances. We can't be fighting
with each other or dilutingresources. We need to ,

Speaker 2 (04:30):
The alliances are one way to get information to
people. Right, right . Aboutthe services that you offer.
Exactly. What , what, how elsedo you talk to people? Do you
visit schools? Do you visitother groups? Um, how , how do
you get the information outabout , um, how people can get
in touch and, and utilize yourservices?

Speaker 3 (04:47):
I think it's twofold. I think, I think
you've gotta have , um, youknow , I , I mentioned the idea
of a community health alliance.
So it's, so what that means isthat it's different here , uh,
in Grand Junction , uh, MesaCounty than it would be, say in
Glenwood Springs or , um, or inPitkin County or in Aspen.
Right. So, so we've gotdifferent resources, different
issues. Mm-Hmm . , different politics that we've

(05:08):
gotta work through. Butgenerally , um, I think that
you want to try to reach out tothe populations of patients ,
um, who would be concernedabout the quality of care. That
was something immediately thatI had to do was talk about, you
know, what's available andwhat's the access. If it takes
three weeks or three months toget into see somebody, well,
that's obviously a barrier ,uh, turns people away. And ,

(05:29):
and so we absolutely , we gottafix that problem first. Mm-Hmm
. . And that'snot a perception problem.
That's a , either you can getan appointment or you can't,
there's no, you know, it's anif so, then so kind of thing.
So we had to really work, Ithink, fast on our access model
in Grand Junction in the otherplaces that we operate. And
also obviously look at accessto the hospital. But then you
start to engage the largercommunity to say, you know,

(05:51):
what are we seeing in, in, interms of, of need in the
schools? What are we seeing interms of need in , um, you
know, employers, I hear morefrom employers than any other
group really, in that their ,their current insurance benefit
does not offer adequatecoverage for their , um, you
know, for their members.
Because basically nobody willtake the rates that they're

(06:13):
offering through those plans ,um, for private insurance. And
I , that's, you know, that'sanother alarming piece is, you
know, you have people who areworking with jobs with, with
private insurance Mm-Hmm .
, who are not,you know, primarily the
Medicaid population that weserve, who also don't have
access to quality care. Andthat's, that's very concerning.
That is so up and down thetiers of , of care.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
Mm-Hmm.
. Um, and youknow, I I , when I started
talking about mental healthawareness, I, I tend to think
of being aware of the resourcesthat are out there. Mm-Hmm .
. But it , it's ,we also need to be aware of
the, the causation and the ,um, all the different things
that people are going through.

(06:54):
Mm-Hmm. , becausethey're , when , when I was
reading up a little bit, I , Iwas reading , um, about mental
health, but also behavioralhealth and how, how do you
differentiate between thosetwo? Because you service both,
correct.

Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah. So it's interesting. I , I've been in
this business about 30 yearsnow. I started as a mental
health tech working in a , apsych hospital. But my mom was
a nurse practitioner , um,growing up in, and, and I think
what I've seen change the mostis the stigma of mental health
has gone away tremendously. Andit's, it's turned in , in a lot

(07:27):
of good directions, right?
Mm-Hmm. withparody and some other things.
And then I think the otherthing that I've seen change the
most is , um, is the idea thatyou have mental health or
substance abuse , uh,treatment. Right. And there
were , um, some researchers,there's a guy named Ken Minkoff
that came out of Florida that Iwas really into for a long time
that talked about, you know,there's, there's different

(07:48):
quadrants. So you can be highmental health, high substance
abuse, or you can be low mentalhealth, high substance abuse.
Right? But the idea was that itwas likely that if you had a
substance abuse or a mentalhealth disorder, one or the
other would be present. Mm-Hmm.
. And that, thatidea has sort of moved into the
scientific world. And Samson, Ithink estimates that it's
higher than 90% likely that ifyou're, if you're suffering

(08:09):
from a mental health disorderor you're diagnosed with a ,
uh, substance abuse disorder,that, that there may be one or
the other present, right?
Mm-Hmm. . So it'sa , it's a both and no wrong
door approach. And that's wherewe got the term behavioral
health. It's sort of thatblending of the two disciples
so that we've got , uh, ourdiscipline so that we've got ,
um, a, a good unified approachto the clinical care. And , um,

(08:32):
to give you an example, we havea psychiatric emergency room
that we just opened at WestSprings Hospital. Mm-Hmm .
, west SpringsHospital has 48 inpatient
psychiatric beds. We have 16beds for , uh, children with
some of the best psychiatristsin the country seeing patients
there. We do a lot of telework.
Great . Um , but we have a lotof great, great care being
delivered there. Um, but we geta lot of people off the street

(08:52):
into the psych yard. We seeabout 200 people a month there
now. Now, that's care weweren't providing before.
That's 200 people that are incrisis that have a place to go
that wasn't there , um, sinceJanuary of last year. So that's
a great

Speaker 2 (09:04):
Win, because that's an open door policy open that

Speaker 3 (09:07):
Has open . Yeah. We just started it, we started the
program, we took it onourselves to, you know,
without, without the resourcesto do it, probably. But we said
, you know , we think this isimportant really to address
that high suicide rate.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
Um , and previously was it , um, needed a , a
doctor's referral or

Speaker 3 (09:22):
A , a doctor's referral. We had a lot of
people that would come to thefront door and say, you know, I
need help. And walk in and thensay, you know, I changed my
mind and , and leave. And it'skinda like, well, you can't
just let people walk in and ,and , and then leave. And so
there's, there was a lot ofchanges that were needed at the
front door to say, you know,let's make this a real ER for
psychiatry. There . Thatmodel's not , um, prevalent in,

(09:42):
in Colorado. I think it's theonly, I think we're the only
freestanding psychiatricemergency room in the state of
Colorado. Wow . So it was adifferent idea that , I'm still
not sure the state loves it,but , um, but the patients do,
and we think it saved a lot oflives. So now we've attached
that. The important thing is,is that right down the hall
from, there was a, was a brandnew state-of-the-art Detox

(10:02):
Center. Right. With 14 beds.
But it was only operating a 3.2level of licensure, which meant
anybody that came to the psycher, that needed medical
clearance had to go to the ERfirst before we could detox. Oh
boy. And so we actually justimproved the level of licensure
from the , the 3.2 to the 3.7level of medical detox. So now

(10:23):
we can walk people from thepsych er right down to the
medical , um, detox and keepthem on campus without having
to send them out to St .
Mary's, which has made St .
Mary's very happy. Mm-Hmm .
. So , so , and ,you know, it's a , it's a win
for better for everybody. It'sa win for the patient. Mm-Hmm .
, it's a win forthe resources that get wasted
if they have to go to the ERfor some unnecessary care. And
it's, you know, it's a win forthe clinical outcome and for

(10:44):
the family that gets to , tovisit that patient once they're
stable. So it's , um, it's muchbetter. I think long term it's
gonna be, you know, this isgonna be the model of care that
people expect in thiscommunity. So.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Wonderful. So how many, you , you said about 200
patients a month. Mm-Hmm.
. Um, what do youthink the the need is? I mean,
do we need to expand servicesin this community? Do we have
more need than service? Or are, are you at capacity or,

Speaker 3 (11:13):
Well, you know, we're not at capacity, which is
, um, mystifying to me, youknow, my, my board of directors
, um, you know, people kind ofknow the history of, there were
articles being written when Iwas, you know, coming in Mm-Hmm
. . I know therewere prior , um, issues with
the prior CEO or, or, you know,purported issues. But, you
know, what I see is that therehasn't been a lot of attention

(11:33):
paid by the state. There hasn'tbeen a lot of attention paid by
, um, you know, maybe by the,you know, just, just the powers
that be that look at healthcarein Colorado to say, what kind
of system of care do we need todeal with? The fact that, you
know, the , uh, mental HealthAmerica just published their
annual report in 2023 in April.
It said, Colorado's 45th out of 51 states in the

(11:59):
United States of America formental health access. That's
embarrassing. Yeah . That's,that's embarrassing. And we
should be ashamed of it, and weshould be doing something about
it. And instead we've got a lotof legislation, but we've got a
lot of broken. Um, we've justgot a lot of broken processes.
Mm-Hmm . . And Ithink we've got pretty much
chaos in the behavioral healthadministration at this point.

(12:20):
And we need, you know , we leadneed leadership, and we need a
clear direction on what are wegonna do about the people in
these communities that aren'tgetting the care that they
need. Now, to your , to yourquestion directly, this
hospital was built by my boardof directors before I got here.
They spent $48 million buildingit state didn't put forth a
dime. Alright . Communities,communities like Glenwood
Springs put forth money.

(12:41):
Mm-Hmm. , Aspenput forth money , uh, I think
Vail put forth money. Uh ,individuals put forth dollars.
Banks gave us favorable lendingrates. Foundations in Denver
gave us money, right. All tocreate this state-of-the-art
facility that has pretty muchsat there since it , since it
opened half. All right. And,and , and , and it's half full

(13:02):
while 65% of the admissions inthe Western slope go to Denver
for their care. Right. Whetherthey like it or not, it's not,
the patients are preferring togo there. This was just the
flow. And the building of thishospital didn't change that
flow because the state neverstepped in and said, Hey, we're
building a system of care here.
This is a state of the artfacility. How are we all gonna

(13:24):
work together? The insurer, youknow , UnitedHealthcare
involved, everybody sit downand say, how do we make sure
that this patient gets fromwhere they are to where they
need to be Yeah . In what wecall a continuum of care.
What's the next rate thing forthat patient? And there doesn't
seem to be a clear answer onthat, and that's what we're
trying to address now.
Continuum

Speaker 2 (13:43):
Of care is challenging in all aspects of
healthcare , I would guess.
Yeah . Um , but particularly soin this situation. And how does
telemedicine and telehealthplay a role in, in , uh, what
you're doing now? And, and areyou expanding that because Sure
. You do work in a lot of ruralareas.

Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yes . So think one of the reasons that I was
selected for this role is whenI was in Ohio , uh, my first
CEO job was as , uh, CEO for anagency in Ohio where we
actually , um, we actually hunga , a for-profit telehealth
company off of a a hundred yearold nonprofit . And this was
before covid. So this wasactually before all of the

(14:24):
rules changed. So it was alittle harder actually, to
deliver the care. Um , but wefound that , um, with this
health home that we had, we hada lot of , we had , we had the
largest for children in thecountry, that we were able to
deliver care much moreefficiently and effectively.
And then when Covid did hit, weactually sent out 4,000 iPads
to these kids and, you know,found out we could observe them
in their home environment. Andthat was even better in terms

(14:45):
of a , a treatment outcome. Sothere was a lot of , uh, a lot
of good that came out of that.
I see the same technology beingapplied here , um, as I
mentioned , uh, the hospitalright now, you know, which is,
you know, it , it's strugglingfinancially because it's not
being utilized to its fullestpotential. And these, you know,
articles haven't helped and allthe history of it Mm-Hmm.

(15:05):
. But it is astate of your place. And we've
got now , uh, we're workingwith Intermountain Health,
which is famous for its, youknow, innovation in tele . And,
and we've got some of the bestpsychiatrists, best doctors,
best therapists in the worldworking right in Grand
Junction. And it's fullystaffed for 40 patients. Uh ,

(15:25):
it's got a capacity of 48, andit's really running around 26
when we know there's hundredsof admissions going to Denver
that don't need to. And sowe're working hard to try to
work that out with the stateand say, let's work together
and make this place a gem sothat people don't have to go,
you know, hundreds of milesaway from their home to get the
care they need. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
So there's a, there's a historical flow
issue. Mm-Hmm. .
Um, and, and you mentionedstigma earlier, and I think it
has improved greatly. And Ithink it will continue to
improve , um, that , that thestigma will diminish. And I
think a lot of that has to dowith the young kids realizing
that it's okay to say, yeah ,they're having mental health
issues. I mean, it's reallyprevalent, right? I talk to my

(16:08):
kids about it all the time and, and they're not afraid to
talk about it. Um, but there ,there is still some stigma,
right? Does that keep peopleout of facility?

Speaker 3 (16:19):
I , I think there is some stigma. I think, you know,
I , it , it's hard to say howit's changed, but it's less
outright and it's , um, kidstalk about it more online, but
it's also been used in bullyingmore Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm . And so it
can be twisted a little more.
And then there's also that fearthat, you know, somebody's

(16:40):
gonna get some misinformationeven if they're seeking help,
that they're seeking help andthey're getting to the right
place. Particularly kids,particularly vulnerable kids,
right? Mm-Hmm . that they're getting the right
information, that they'regetting to the right group that
they wanna talk to. Not a , nota group of kids that are gonna
twist what they say or bullythem with what they say. Mm-Hmm
. . And that ,that I think has happened. And

(17:01):
I think it happens moreprevalently than, than we think
and, or nor that it should. So,

Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yeah. So , um, what do you want our community to
know about , uh, your servicesand, and if they know somebody
that's in need Mm-Hmm .
, how do they goabout , um, contacting, I mean,
I love this idea of an opendoor policy, but are there, is
there misinformation or isthere a lack of information ,

(17:28):
um, to the general public? Sodo they know how to access

Speaker 3 (17:31):
Things? So mine springs.org is the easiest way
to access our care, and it'llgive you a couple options to do
that. You can do it through theportal when you land, or you
can do it through the phonenumber where you land. Um, I
think the difference you'll seebetween the old mine springs
and the Mine Springs of todayis that you can get an
appointment , uh, tomorrow tosee a therapist or to see a

(17:51):
psychiatrist. And from thepoint of which I walked in in a
, or August, excuse me, I thinkit , I think it was about three
months for an initialappointment. That's , um, so
we've been able to make realprogress , uh, on access in
Grand Junction, and we'reworking on the other areas of
the state that we serve , uh,to do the same. And as I
mentioned, we're using teleMm-Hmm. , but

(18:12):
we're also using a lot of greattherapists that have been here
for a really long time, whohave been doing great work for
Mine Springs. Um , good, youknow, throughout their career.
Mm-Hmm . andactually came here, trained
here, and stayed here. And I'mreally proud of that group as
well.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
You mentioned that you came here in August of 22
Mm-Hmm. , uh,nationwide search. Mm-Hmm .
for a new CEOMm-Hmm. after
some, some troubling thingscame to light Mm-Hmm .
with theorganization. Can you talk a
little bit about the challengesthat you faced in turning
things around at Red

Speaker 3 (18:43):
Springs? Sure. I think , um, you know, probably
coming in , uh, you know, firstof all, the reason that I took
the job , um, is a dear friendof mine that I've known for a
long time, who, you know, cameto me and said, I really think
that this place is uniquely ,um, needing something you can

(19:05):
bring to it, right ? Mm-Hmm .
. And, and I, youknow, I've been doing this a
while , you know, you don't, Idon't, I don't have a big ego,
and it's kind of , uh, you kindof know what you're good at,
right? And I've done quite afew turnarounds, and I've done
quite a few , um, you know,things like when I was, you
know, very young at BayCareHealth System, I got handed a
bunch of behavioral healthstuff for 11 hospitals, and we

(19:26):
turned that into a , acontinuum of care into a
service line that's stillthere. And so I'm proud of that
work, and it's something I dowell. Mm-Hmm . .
And so it , looking at mineSprings , it was pretty evident
that there were a , there were,there were a lot of issues ,
um, but most significantly thatthere was not a lot of
structure and not a lot of ,um, planning and, and not a lot

(19:47):
of , um, utilization of what Ithought was the organization's
greatest strength. One, it hadstate-of-the-art facilities,
and two, it had some of thebest clinical people I had ever
met. Um, so that's great tohear. So that was why I , I
came, right ? Mm-Hmm.
it was , it wasthose three factors, right?
Someday I knew really well whohad spent some time out here
and kind of believed in thevision. Um , then I met the
people, and then I met theboard. You know, I met , um,

(20:10):
you know , some of the boardmembers. We've got a really
eclectic board. Um, you know,we have some people that are
Grand Junction legends. We'vegot the Sheriff of Mesa County,
and we've got some young, youknow, really , uh, go-getter
type folks from , uh, from,from , uh, the Aspen and
Glenwood areas. And we've got ,uh, you know, we've just got a
really eclectic board. And ,and I've really enjoyed , um,

(20:33):
sort of, sort of sitting in theroom with all of these
different opinions and thesedifferent backgrounds all
united in one thought, which iswe want to improve mental
health care and not just, notjust double down on what we've
been doing, but like, createsomething that isn't, which is
very energizing for a new CEOto come into and, and really
feel like he's got, you know, alot of support from not just

(20:53):
the , the board membersthemselves, but from the
community at large. So,

Speaker 2 (20:57):
And you felt like, I mean, obviously you want to
focus on patient care Mm-Hmm.
, but your firsttask was to get in and get
things straight in theorganization. Yes . Yes. Did
you have a timeline goal forgetting certain things in
place? I know as a businessowner, you know, we try to set
deadlines and Mm-Hmm .
by who and bywhen. Um, but gosh, that had to

(21:20):
be really challenging to, tothink about having to do that
while your main focus needs tobe patient care. Yeah .

Speaker 3 (21:26):
I think, I think what was clear from the
beginning were was we had, youknow , we had a state audit. We
had just had to triag agencyaudit. I had an initial meeting
with Hick Puff and their , uh,a director Kim Bim fester . And
, um, and I had a meeting with, uh, um, with the folks from
Rocky Mountain Health Plan orUnited Healthcare, and they,
you know, everyone voiced theirconcern. Mm-Hmm .

(21:47):
obviously every public officialin Grand Junction, especially
Janet Rowland. Mm-Hmm .
voiced theirconcern. So my real question
was, what was here that couldbe improved dramatically,
right? So , if there wassomething here, but there were,
you know, there was a , therewas a lot of talk about the
former CEO or, you know, theway you approach that is you
kind of come in, you try to seewho's qualified to do what and

(22:10):
where,

Speaker 2 (22:11):
And make sure you have the right people in the
right seats.

Speaker 3 (22:12):
Yeah. And, and, and unfortunately coming in , um,
you know, I had a lot ofconcerns about the people that
were in those chairs, probablymore than, you know , I've been
doing this a while , and it wasprobably more than any Mm-Hmm .
position I hadbeen in that I felt like I just
didn't have anything to workwith. Right. It , this wasn't,
I needed to tweak something orcoach somebody. This was, I
needed to change everything.
Yeah . And so, including themanagement company that had

(22:34):
been hired 30 days prior to mycoming in Mm-Hmm.
. And so we, youknow, we just fired, you know,
all the folks that we felt werepart of the problem, including,
you know, there was a realissue with some prescribing
practices, and so we needed toclean house on the , on the
physician side. And so we didthat , um, as well. So, so a
lot of change, lot , lot , lotof change very quickly , um,

(22:56):
more quickly than I've everdone anything like that in my
career. It was , uh, it was, itwas pretty dramatic, but it,
you know, it , it , it goteverybody's attention.
. Yes . Uh , and I , and itopened the door to hiring the
best team I've had in mycareer. I've got a group of
wonderful people working now asthe senior leadership team at

(23:17):
Mine Springs, who get up everyday just thinking of different
ways to, to provide more care.
Mm . And we , we call it careto the community. You know, we
, we want to be maniacal abouttaking what we get and turning
it into, you know, how do wehelp more people? Mm-Hmm .
in the areas thatwe're, that we're responsible
for.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
One of the quotes that I read that I really liked
, um, again, as a businessowner , uh, it really , um,
resonated with me wascompliance doesn't mean
quality. No. Like, it's, youhave to be compliant. Uh, but
you gotta do so much more thanthat.

Speaker 3 (23:50):
Right. And , and, you know, sometimes even, you
know, compliance can, can beproblematic when it comes to
quality. Right. And, and sothere are, you know, and that
doesn't happen all the time,but, but I think there needs to
be a constant conversationabout the business that we're
in, the fact that some peopleview it as a pseudoscience, and
it's our job to change thatperception. Right? Yeah . We're

(24:11):
obviously a part of healthcare. Um, we're, we're now the
biggest cost in healthcare,which is why everybody's paying
so much attention to us. Now.
I'd , I'd love to believe thateveryone woke up one day and
said, well , behavioralhealth's a huge issue. Let's
all mm-Hmm.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
, let's get

Speaker 3 (24:23):
Behind it . Let's all start talking about it. But
it does have a cost aspect toit, and part

Speaker 2 (24:28):
Of it's now the largest cost it is

Speaker 3 (24:30):
In healthcare . In healthcare and , and chronic
disease. And so we jumpedhearts and cancer and all of
that. And so if you look attaking, let's say you're ,
let's say you're , uh, RockyMountain Health Plan , you're a
Medicaid , uh, plan, and youtake first dollar risk on
Medicaid for this region, youbetter have an answer for
behavioral health, right. Toeither treat it in a way that's
gonna improve outcomes that aregonna produce real savings or

(24:53):
somehow figure out how to notto pay for it. Right. And I
think we're in the transition,I think we're in the transition
phase between, you know, theold model of let's figure out a
way not to pay for it, and oh,we're just gonna have to pay
for it, and let's figure outwhat the best models of care
are together so that we Mm-Hmm. are balancing
service outcome and cost.
Right. But that's gotta be a ,an a , you know, a a both of us

(25:15):
having a conversation about thecare model versus a, we're not
paying for it. Right. And that,that, I think those days are
gone. Um , you know, and I'mnot sure the insurance
companies have gotten the memoyet, but not paying for it, I
don't think is the answer youcan give anymore .

Speaker 2 (25:31):
No, definitely not.
Uh , I think more and morepeople see it as integrated. I
mean, at least on the consumerside, I think those of us that
are, are not in healthcare.
Mm-Hmm . thinkAbsolutely. It's a part of your
overall health. Right. And Ithink the pandemic showed that
to a lot of us, we have toreally pay attention to our
mental health. Right.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
And if you have a commercial benefit, I mean,
think about it . If you havecommercial insurance, you have
a good job, but nobody in townwill take your insurance
because your insurance companydoesn't pay enough for the
benefit. Right. Like,

Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah .

Speaker 3 (25:59):
And you're an employer and you know, now that
mental health is such a hugefactor to your business being
successful. Mm-Hmm .
, these are thethings that, you know, that I
think about it , I don't

Speaker 2 (26:09):
Anybody else does things . Well , thank you for
thinking about it at night .
Sure . Yeah . Sure. Um, itsounds like the Grand Junction
, uh, or the regional , um,situation that you've got is
pretty unique to the country.
Are there other models thatyou're following that have been
successful and somethingsimilar?

Speaker 3 (26:26):
I've done this before. So when I was in Tampa
Bay , um, I mentioned I workedfor Baker Health System. We had
a , we had a psych ER at everysite where we had a pretty much
every site where we had a psych, um, facility or , or we had
inpatient beds. And so I knowthat model works. I also know
that , uh, we integrated a , acommunity mental health center,
the largest community mentalhealth center in the state of

(26:47):
Florida into that model. Andthat, that helped because you
could bring these reallyskilled case managers who did
nothing but place people in thecommunity and keep them there.
Mm-Hmm. , youcould bring them into the
hospital and help to dischargeplan for these patients. And
that was a better continuum,right? Mm-Hmm. , I
know that detox , uh, needs tobe a component of care to any,
you know, any stabilization ofa patient. And I know that

(27:09):
patients get, get welllong-term through habilitation
and through long-termrehabilitation. And, and, and
we don't have half of thatcontinuum built , built out yet
here. So, so it's takingsomeone from where they are,
which is probably the worst dayin their life, them and their
family Mm-Hmm . and getting them from there to
where they want to be andbeneficial wellness. Right. And

(27:31):
, and what are the things thatyou have to do in between
consistently? Those are thethings you have to build. Those
are the things that aremissing. That's a gap. Right.
And, and we haven't done muchof that here, and we need to do
more.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
So do you have , um, do you and your board, have you
built a long range plan for thethings that you want to
institute next? What does thatlook like?

Speaker 3 (27:52):
We've done a three year strategic plan. So , um,
you know, you know, years onethrough three are basically
save the place . Right. So we're in , we're about a
year and a half into that.
We're still, you know , there'sthis , this place is still on
the edge. This hospital's beenlosing money for five years. Um
, in my view though, this boardhas really been holding open
and access point for the stateof Colorado. Um , you know ,

(28:15):
despite a lot of financialhardship. And, you know, there
was a lot of , uh, you know,there was , there was a lot of
activity around , uh,compliance. Mm-Hmm .
, um, you know,but, but I don't know as much
credit has been given to, youknow, what this board has done
to build these facilities andto keep them open. Mm-Hmm.
. So , so I , Iwould just point that out, but
I think the , you know, thenumber one thing is to, to put

(28:37):
out the fires and to make surethat people begin to trust us
Again, my job has really beento go around and, you know, and
give my word to publicofficials and keep that word
right ? Mm-Hmm. .
And so when I said to publicofficials we were gonna fix
the, the access to careproblem, well, you know, that
perception, which was real, hasgone away when I said, we're
gonna stop prescribingbenzodiazepines to patients

(28:59):
that don't need them. Uh ,we've done that, right? Mm-Hmm
. when I said,you know , we were gonna
improve the access model forthe hospital. Well , we've got
a , we've got a group of 11hospitals meeting , um,
tomorrow for the first time tobegin a Six Sigma project to
discuss the best way to get apatient into West Springs
Hospital. Right. Because yeah .
We're the nearest receivingfacility to all 11 of those

(29:20):
hospitals. We should be thehub. Right. Um , I wish the
state of Colorado would comeout and say, this is the hub.
Let's all work together and getit done. But if they're not
gonna do it, we will. And we'regonna try and figure out a way
to get this , uh, get thiscommunity services that it
needs this community andsurrounding communities. Right?
Mm-Hmm. , this is,we're talking

Speaker 2 (29:37):
Thousand . How many, how many counties?

Speaker 3 (29:39):
Uh , this is about 11. We , we serve 20 counties,
so, yeah . Um, yeah. It's alot. That

Speaker 2 (29:44):
Is a lot. Um, through the transition to your
new leadership, did the boardof directors have a lot of
changeover as well?

Speaker 3 (29:52):
The board did have a lot of changeover. Um, and I,
you know, I , I think a lot ofthat was due to some of the
compliance activity , some ofthe concerns about
transparency. Mm-Hmm.
, um, and some ,so some of the board held over
and some was changed over. Um,so I'm, I'm not privy to all of
that. Yeah . I was around forsome of it. I , I , I did

(30:13):
participate in the plan ofcorrection. So a lot of what ,
what I've been doing for thelast year and a half is just
kind of taking that triagagency audit and going down the
list and fixing everything onthe list. Right. And so we're
about to look at a newelectronic health record, which
, which will solve some ofthese documentation issues ,
which were so prevalent in alot of that Mm-Hmm .
, uh,conversation. But , um, but it

(30:36):
, but it's really just been,you know, this is the list of
things that need to be fixed,and, and I think that's gonna
be something we're doing for awhile .

Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah. Yeah. It's a big job.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
Does that make

Speaker 2 (30:47):
Sense? It does, yes.
Um, I wanna circle back alittle bit , um, uh, a little
bit more personal about you.
Sure . I was , uh, reading thatyou , um, your education was in
accounting and finance andbusiness. Mm-Hmm.
and then , uh, uh, English andcreative writing, right?

Speaker 3 (31:03):
Yeah. Yeah . Yeah. I graduated from the Florida
State University, which justgot the worst outcome possible
in the , in the ,

Speaker 2 (31:11):
With the bowl situation, the

Speaker 3 (31:12):
Football bowl situation. Come

Speaker 2 (31:14):
On . Yeah . That

Speaker 3 (31:14):
Was ridiculous.
Class of 93 though. . Iwas, I was the first year I
graduated, the first year I wonthe national championship, so
yeah. It's a great place to goto school. Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
. And so , um, how did you transition
to the healthcare world?

Speaker 3 (31:26):
You know, my mom is a , is a, was a nurse. Um, she
was actually started as aspeech therapist, I don't
think, I think when we moved toFlorida, they didn't do speech
therapy in the school . So sheended up going back to nursing
school, and then she wasworking as a psychiatric nurse
, um, at a psych hospital. AndI was in, I think, high school

(31:46):
or college when I firststarted. Uh , I was 18 and ,
uh, and just started working asa psych tech. And then I kind
of became a code team leaderand some different stuff. And
then went and got a degree atFlorida State and came back and
decided I wasn't gonna be ableto get a job creatively writing
many places . So I ,uh, I just

Speaker 2 (32:07):
Started Tough way to make a living.

Speaker 3 (32:08):
Yeah. Started working in the business, and I
actually started grant writing, um, which, which is kind of
how I got into administration.
Mm-Hmm . ,because I got to know Medicaid
and how the money flowed. Andthen part of what you had to do
is you had to sit in a roomwith clinicians and they would
have to explain to you how theywere gonna use this money. And
it just was a , it was a greatsegue into what I do today.
Mm-Hmm. . Butbasically what I do today. So

Speaker 2 (32:32):
If you were gonna give advice to , uh, a young
person that , uh, wanted to getinto the business side of
healthcare Mm-Hmm.
, what kinds of ,uh, I mean, business management
and accounting and finance, isthat what you would recommend?

Speaker 3 (32:48):
You know, I would say business management,
accounting, and finance. But Iwould also be thinking this is
gonna be a really creativebusiness in the future. Right.
So,

Speaker 2 (32:57):
Ever expanding .

Speaker 3 (32:58):
Yeah. If you're an old Clayton Christensen fan ,
uh, fan, you know, they , thehospitals look a lot, hospitals
look a lot like steel mills.
You know, you had that theoryof the steel mill that, you
know, all of the differentchannels of business get taken
away slowly. There's this greatrevolution going on with
technology right now. Mm-Hmm.
. And, and sothat technology, you know , in
healthcare, we tend to be about10 to 15 years behind the

(33:20):
technology. That's, that'sprobably a good thing. Um ,
because it gives the technologytime to mature. And we don't
like to, you know , necessarilyendanger patients. But it can
be a little frustrating, right.
Because you feel like you'regoing back in time sometimes
when you go to the hospital andyou sit down , um, you go , you
go into , you can go to MindSprings, you can feel 30, like
you're going 30 years back intime. . But the, but,

(33:42):
but the idea right now is thereare people creating virtual
health systems, you know, inthe cloud. Right. What does
that look like? What do thewearables that come out of that
look like? What does vr, youknow, how does that fit into
all of that? Yeah . You know ,I've got a really good friend
of mine that runs the VR lab atthe University of Michigan. He
tells me all this crazy stuffthey're doing, and I don't
know. So, so there's all thiscool stuff and cool technology

(34:04):
coming, and it just hasn'tcracked the surface yet of
what's a very hard healthcareindustry. Right . I mean, we're
harder than oil right now interms of trying to protect
Mm-Hmm . , youknow, the infrastructure, you
know, the covid did not, youknow, did not help healthcare's
, um, public , uh, perception.
Perception. Mm-Hmm .
, I think is theway to , to put it, right?
Mm-Hmm. , uh, it, it, it dinged us in a lot of

(34:27):
areas that , uh, fairly orunfairly, you know, we were
exposed, and so we got ananswer for some , we got an
answer for some of that stuff,but some of it's gonna be this
new technology.

Speaker 2 (34:36):
Mm-Hmm.
do you meanhealthcare system as a whole?
Or mental health care in inparticular?

Speaker 3 (34:43):
I think mental health care . So, , so
a lot of my career, I tell thisjoke a lot , a lot of my
career, I've sat in a roomwith, you know , uh, a lot of
cardiologists who will tell youfor hours on end why the heart
is the most important organ inthe body. Or if you happen to
be with, you know, you know, akidney doctor, they're gonna
tell you about the kidney.
Right. I , I hang around with alot of brain doctors, right.

(35:04):
And I think our argument'spretty good that the brain is
probably the most predominantorgan in the body. And that ,
uh, its role has beendiminished just 'cause it's
harder to understand than allthe others, right ? Yeah . And
so now what we're doing, justlike with the genome, we're
mapping the brain and with themapping of the brain is going
to come a multitude of thingsthat I haven't even got, I

(35:27):
haven't even started toimagine.

Speaker 2 (35:29):
It's hard to imagine everything.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
Yes . It's , it's , you know, and , and combine
that with ai, right? Mm-Hmm .
. And this, youknow, this is gonna predominate
healthcare . I believe, Ibelieve the brain and the
brain's health will predominatehealthcare because every other
organ is affected by thebrain's health, essentially.
And, and that, that I think is,is where we're headed. I think
you have , you've had , uh, youknow, a number of theories that

(35:51):
developed a couple hundredyears before me that have sort
of come , you know, you had,you know, you have all the, you
know, the , the , thepsychologists, you had the
psychiatrists, and you havethe, you know, the folks that
are doing other things and, andall those things are kind of
coming back together, I think.
Mm-Hmm . And , and with thisnew technology, I think we're
gonna see real big change inthe next 20 years that like,
just fi we won't, it won't lookthe same.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
So many industries are facing that. Yeah . We just
can't even imagine where thingsare gonna go. Yeah.
Fascinating.

Speaker 3 (36:21):
Meanwhile, , yes , we have a lot of really
sick people, more than we'veever had, and we have a lot of
really sick children. Um , orwe have a lot of children who
are at risk of being reallysick. Mm-Hmm. .
And, and that has to beaddressed now. And we've
destroyed generations of kidswith, with the opium epidemic.
And, and we have to look atbetween now and that future day

(36:43):
when we've got bettertechnology and better tools.
Like what are the things weknow work things we know work
are the , those handoffs I wastalking about. Right. Making
sure we engage kids, makingsure we engage families. Mm-Hmm
. making sureit's the next right thing
model. Right. Not, well, thisis available, so this is what
you get. Right.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Do you, and I , I , I think on the consumer level
or, you know, just casualconversations with , uh,
family, friends , um, we talkabout has the mental health
issue for kids always beenthere and it's just now coming
to light that kids have theseissues. Um, I mean, obviously
opioid is, is a completelydifferent thing, and that has ,

(37:23):
uh, changed a lot oflandscapes. But are , are we
just becoming more aware ofissues that kids and adults
face?

Speaker 3 (37:33):
I don't, you know, I don't have any numbers to
support this, but I , I'll tellyou my own feeling is that it's
gotten much worse. And, andit's gotten much worse because
of technology. Yeah . Becauseof phones and the internet and
apps and TikTok and, you know,I'm not particularly gonna
single any one thing out asevil, but kids are being
exposed to more, more than wewere ever even, I mean, we , we

(37:57):
couldn't have handled this muchexposure. Right ? Mm-Hmm.
. And it , andit's, it's scary. And then you
put them in a situation wherethere's a social , social
isolation . I iation for two tothree years, right? Mm-Hmm .
With, with really no contactwith the outside world at all.
And then this technology haseven more of a hold. I think
that's really scary for, forwhat kids have been exposed to.

(38:19):
I think for , um, you know , Ithink for kids of a certain
generation, the opioid crisishas just devastated, you know,
their families. Mm-Hmm .
that will neverbe the same. And that cuts
through socioeconomic lineslike nothing else, right?
Mm-Hmm. , itdoesn't matter if you have
money or don't have money, youcould easily have been affected
by that , um, epidemic. And ,uh, you know, we've lost a

(38:44):
generation of kids as a resultof that. Right. We did that to
ourselves. I mean, I was, youknow, I've been , I was in the
hospitals, you know, saying,you know , what's your pain
level? Right. You know, Ican't, can't have any pain.
Right. We gotta give yousomething for the pain and we
hooked the whole generation. Oh

Speaker 2 (38:59):
Yeah. It , it's , um, it's such an important part
of our community. I want tothank you for , um, we , for
being there for our community.
I mean, it is , um, we talk alot about community on this
podcast, and we, we feel like,you know, we all live here,
we're invested and we want thebest for our community. And,

(39:19):
and there's so many ways we canimprove things here. Yeah. Uh ,
for the quality of life forpeople. And mental health
services has got to be a bigpart of that. So thank you.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
It's such , yeah.
It's such a beautiful place.
Mm-Hmm. . And it, um, I've taken up mountain
biking and I'm , I'm sitting onthe public health board, which
is really, you know, what'sinteresting is that the trails
are part of the public health

Speaker 2 (39:42):
Isn't that wonderful board ,

Speaker 3 (39:43):
Which I think is really cool, right? Yep .
There's so much here. Right.
And yeah . And I think MineSprings can do so much more for
this community than it has inthe past. And, you know, I can
tell you that you've got somepeople working there , um, who
are really dedicated to doingthat every single day. And ,
uh, and they, they're inspiringme a little bit. I'm , you
know, I'm a little long on thetooth, but they get me outta

(40:04):
bed every day to make sure, youknow, make sure that , uh, that
we're getting the job done. SoI'm excited.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
It seems like you're very dedicated as well. So I
thank you for that. Thank

Speaker 3 (40:13):
You. Appreciate .

Speaker 2 (40:14):
In closing, is there anything that you would like to
share about , uh, minesSprings, or , um, you know,
services that are offered , uh,and how to get in touch or, I
mean, I would know we talkedabout it a little bit, but I
just wanna give you one moreopportunity to , to share with
our listeners and our viewers.
Um, you know, if somebody'sstruggling

Speaker 3 (40:33):
Yeah. If you're struggling, get help, right?
Mm-Hmm . , ifyou're out there and you're
using drugs, fentanyl's a realthing. Don't risk it. Go get
some help. Mm-Hmm .
, we've gotmedication assisted treatment ,
uh, through our detox. Ifyou're in a mental health
crisis, you can go right to ourpsych or right on our campus.
Uh , go to our , our , um, our,our , uh, mine springs.org and

(40:56):
you can book an appointment ,um, tomorrow to see a
psychiatrist or a therapist, orwe can hook you up with case
management. We can even helpfind you a place to live. Mm .
Um, so whatever the issue is ,just start the process. Find,
help some , but if you can'tfind help with us, 2, 1 1 is
always available to you . Ifit's the , that serious 9 1 1
is always available to you,right. If it's a matter of life

(41:16):
or death, it's a matter of lifeor death, all right ? But if
you're in that state whereyou're thinking about hurting
yourself and you're thinkingabout hurting somebody else,
you need to get helpimmediately.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Immediately, yes .

Speaker 3 (41:25):
Immediately. Don't wait. Don't wait. It won't go
away.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yeah . Thank you very much, John. Appreciate you
being here today. And , uh,again, minds springs.org.

Speaker 3 (41:36):
Minds springs.org

Speaker 2 (41:37):
Is the website.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
Yeah. Why don't we get this absolutely right. So
that I

Speaker 2 (41:41):
Know. So , um, we wanna make sure every we share
the website. Again, that isminds springs health.org or a
lot of phone numbers you cancall if you need help. So
Right.

Spe (41:51):
Www.mindspringshealth.org.
If you go to the website, it'sgot all the numbers, all the
locations, and then you can goright to our psyche if you need
help. Okay .

Speaker 2 (42:00):
So thank you, John.
Thanks for your hard work.
Thanks . And then thank you toyour organization for providing
mental health services in ourcommunity. Thanks

Speaker 3 (42:07):
For letting me talk about it. Absolutely.
Appreciate it. This was great.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
Thanks to our guest today. Um, and please reach out
if you're having , uh,struggles or problems. And this
is a really serious issue, andwe definitely want to make
Grand Junction a better, saferplace to live. So , um, thanks
for this conversation today,and we'll see you next time on
the Full Circle podcast. Thanksfor listening. This is Christie

(42:35):
Reese signing out from the FullCircle Podcast.