Dr. Timothy Winegard - Author - Full Circle with The Christi Reece Group

Christi sits down with Dr. Timothy Winegard, author of The Horse: A Galloping History of Humanity. They discuss Tim's books, growing up in Canada, his move to Grand Junction, teaching at Colorado Mesa University, his love of history, and, of course, hockey.

You can find his books at local booksellers as well as online.

If  you prefer to watch your podcasts, head over to our YouTube page!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):


Speaker 2 (00:06):
The Full Circle podcast, compelling interviews
and incredible tales fromColorado's Western Slope, from
the mountains to the desert.
Christy Reese and her team herefrom the Movers Shakers, and
characters of the Grand Valleyand surrounding mountain towns
that make the Western slope theplace we all love. You'll
learn, you'll laugh, you'lllove with the full circle. Hi
everyone, this is Kristy Reese.

(00:26):
Welcome to the Full CirclePodcast. I'm delighted to have
as our guest today, TimothyWeininger , associate Professor
of History at CMU. Welcome.

Speaker 3 (00:36):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Also, bestselling author. Uh, this is your latest
book, the Horse, which I havebeen reading. It is absolutely
fantastic. I love it so much.
And I was taking all thesenotes and ready to, you know,
some hard hitting questions, , uh, about the horse,
but , uh, we have a lot to talkabout, so we will get to that.
Um , but I kind of wanna startwith , uh, your background. Uh

(01:01):
, you're Canadian. You grew upin a small town. I did . In
Ontario. We were just talkingabout that. Tell us a little
bit about your, your , uh,childhood up there.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
Um, so I was, I'm from a little town outside of
Sarnia , Ontario called BrightsGrove Ontario. And if you're
familiar with golf , um, MikeWeir , the Canadian who won the
Masters is from my little town.
He's our, he's our claim tofame of Nice , of Brights Grove
, Ontario. He's

Speaker 2 (01:26):
A hero there.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
, he certainly looked at the local
park is , it's Mike Weir Park,obviously. Um, so I grew up
just hockey was my life. Yeah.
Growing up, I learned how toskate roughly the same time I
learned how to walk. So kind ofone, one and a half . There's,
my dad made a , we had a bigbackyard and he made a rink
every year in the backyard. And, um, I learned to skate and

(01:48):
walk basically at the sametime. There's pictures of me
literally just in diapers. Indiapers and skatess. I love
that. Uh , with a stick bombingaround the backyard rink,
probably about, you know, twoand a half years old when that
picture was taken

Speaker 2 (02:00):
In the middle of winter. Oh,

Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yeah. Yeah. . Um, so, I mean, I'm so
thankful for my, my parents andthey're my heroes. Um, I had a
great childhood and I wassurrounded by love and
curiosity and music and , um,stories, and I'm, you know, I
got to meet all my grandparentsand even my great-grandparents.
Wow. Um, and my great-grandpafought in the first and second

(02:23):
World wars for Canada and mygrandpa in the Second World
War. So I got to listen totheir stories of kid . So I
also served nine years in the ,the Canadian Army. It was
something I wanted to do sinceI was very little. Um , but I
wanted to be a hockey player.
Mm-Hmm. .

Speaker 2 (02:37):
Was your dad a hockey player?

Speaker 3 (02:38):
No, my, my dad was a basketball player and a
football, a football player. Heplayed university football back
home, and my sisters were both,they played university
basketball back in Canada, butI mean, I , I don't know what
it was like every otherCanadian boy. I just wanted to
be Wayne Gretzky and playhockey. Yeah . Um , and I did
play a very high level hockey ,junior hockey back home in the

(02:58):
OHL and , uh, suffered ashoulder injury that kind of
ended my career when I was 18.
Um, and then obviously went toschool and got my undergrad and
my master's from the RoyalMilitary College of Canada,
which is essentially theequivalent of the US Army War
College. And then was in themilitary for the Army for nine

(03:18):
years and did my PhD at theUniversity of Oxford in , in
England. While I was still inthe Army, I was attached to Oh
, wow . Attached to the BritishArmy, actually, like NATO
countries attached officers tovarious forces. Mm-Hmm .
. So I did mydoctorate, my PhD at, at Oxford
while I was attached to theBritish Army. And then , um,

(03:39):
after that I was teaching inthe indigenous studies
department at a university backhome in Canada, London,
Ontario. And how I got here isactually very .
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
It is a great story.
Yeah . Yeah. You followed a , aGrand Junction gal?

Speaker 3 (03:57):
I did continue . The Horse is my sixth book. And ,
uh, the mosquito before this,my fifth, so I was actually
actually researching for myfourth book at the US Archives
in Washington dc and I left thearchives and I was walking past
what was then the VerizonCenter , uh, with the
Washington Capitals play. And ,uh, it was about 10 minutes

(04:18):
into the first period, I think.
So I offered some dude fivebucks for a ticket.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
Right . Might as well go watch some hockey
course

Speaker 3 (04:23):
Haggled with him and sat down and I was two seats in
from the stairs. And the , theend of the row was occupied by
a beautiful girl from GrandJunction, Colorado, who was
there for a , a workconference. And we studied,

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Was she attending the hockey game by herself?
Yes. Okay . And she's

Speaker 3 (04:40):
A big hockey fan,

Speaker 2 (04:41):
So you already were like, okay, this is my kind of
gal .

Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yep . She was by herself. She's a big hockey
fan. Uh , she paid full pricefor Hi her , her ticket though,
which is a rookie miss , arookie move. Um, so we started
chatting, and I think we bothknew right then that this was,
I don't know, fate or Yodaintervened. And the force , um,
worked in our favor and we hada long distance relationship

(05:07):
for a year. Um, and she had ason from a previous marriage,
so she couldn't move out ofGrand Jun or Mesa County
because of the custody. Mm-Hmm. and the , the ,
the , the dad getting everyother weekend. So she said, if
you wanted to be with me, Ihave to move to Grand Junction,
Colorado. And I had been toColorado twice before, and I
said, where the hell is GrandJunction? Never heard of

(05:28):
Colorado. So I, I , uh, I movedhere and I guess the rest is
history. And Ben Affleck willplay me in the movie. But , um,
so ironically, I'm not a , he's,

Speaker 2 (05:40):
He's too old,

Speaker 3 (05:41):
You know , I'm 47.
He's probably only a little bitolder than I am. Uh , okay. Tom
Hardy. Uh , yeah, there you go.
I have a man crush on TomHardy, so we will get him. Um,
the ironic part is I'm not abig Alexander Kin fan. Um, I
think he's a one trick pony,and he is a top of the circle
one time around a power play,and he scores tons of gold .
Sure. But , uh, so ironically,because we met at a Washington

(06:05):
Capitals game on our Christmastree where people put stars or
whatever else , uh, up there,we have Alexandra Ovechkin on
the top of our Christmas tree

Speaker 2 (06:15):
On the top of your Christmas tree to commemorate
your meeting.

Speaker 3 (06:18):
Yes. But I make sure that I put Yoda right beside
him, so he can't be outdone,but yeah . So kin occupies the
top place .

Speaker 2 (06:28):
So you moved to Grand Junction and , uh, and
then you look into CMU and whatpossible jobs are here?

Speaker 3 (06:35):
Yeah, it was, it was kind of a bold move because I,
I had a , a job back home as aprofessor teaching, as I said,
in the indigenous studies or inAmerican Native Studies
Department , um, back home atthe university I actually did
my undergrad at, which is about45 minutes from, from my
hometown . Um, and I, Iessentially quit my job and
moved here, and I did not havea job at CMU lined up. I walked

(06:59):
in and , and handed the, thehistory program coordinator my
CV and says, this is my story.
This is who I am. Andthankfully, I got a job out of
the gates, which is very lucky.
Um, but in the meantime,waiting for school to start, I
was actually a wildlandwildland firefighter. Oh , wow

(07:19):
. Um, if you remember thesummer 2012, the whole state
was on fire pretty much.
Mm-Hmm. . So theyneeded firefighters. So I was
kind of an emergency hire andwith my military background
that did a quick crash course.
And, and I worked as a kind offires up near rifle silt area
all summer. Wow. Um, untilschool started and then started

(07:40):
teaching , uh, at CMU , um, butnot hockey yet. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
What was the first course that you taught at CMU?

Speaker 3 (07:46):
Um, I think it was just basic, the , the 100
levels , like American,American history and , um,
Western siv . And I joked,'cause the students were kind
of like, why is a Canadianteaching me American History
? I'm like, well, my 12years of university and a PhD
from Oxford aside from that. Soyou get the truth. That's why

(08:07):


Speaker 2 (08:07):
. Perfect.
Um, all right . I wanna go backa little bit to your childhood
and, and your folks. Andobviously they instilled in you
a love of sport and , um, yourdad was in medicine, right?
Yeah,

Speaker 3 (08:23):
My dad still works, actually. He's , uh, how old
would he be now? 74. But he'sthe chief of staff for our
county hospital. Um, and he'sEmergen an emergency physician.
Um, and my mom was , uh, whatwe would call a Crown attorney.
So worked for the, I guess DAessentially would be a DA here.
Um, so they just, I mean, I wassurvived two older sisters, and

(08:44):
my parents are both extremelywell-rounded and obviously
educated, and I was justsurrounded by you name it,
whether it was, they took us toEurope when we were little.
They took us all over, over theus , all over Canada. So
exposed to different cultures.
Um, we read the classics. Welistened to classical music as
kids , uh, obviously along withGordon Lightfoot and the

(09:07):
Beatles and Nice. Um, so theyjust exposed me to so much as a
kid, and were just such lovingparents who supported whatever
it was I wanted to do. Mm-Hmm .
.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
Um , when you , uh, how did you get interested in
history? And I, I know thatwith your , um, your , uh, dis
your , not your descendants,your antecedents Yeah. Uh, in
the military, that may have hadsomething to do with it, but
when did you really start todevelop a , an interest in
history classes?

Speaker 3 (09:39):
Uh, as long as I can remember. I remember being in
kindergarten and my schooldidn't have a library because
of how small our town was. Theyhad a bookmobile and once a
week, like a big trailer wouldcome, that was the library and
book mobile would come in theparking lot. And you got, your
class got to go for half anhour. So the librarian, and
there's so many people when youlook back on your life that,

(10:02):
you know, are kind of namelessin a way, but inspire you to,
to be you and whatever thatmeans for individual people.
But the librarian and I, I ,her name escapes me now, but
she used to put aside kidshistory books for me and always
bring them for me when I was inkindergarten in grade one and
two . And a lot of them werewar books. They were picture

(10:23):
books on Alexander the Grade orthe First World War, second
World War . So I used to readthese books as a kid from,
since I could read, andcertainly my grandpa and
great-grandpa, listening tothem as a kid, talk about their
stories from the first andsecond World Wars. That was
kind of the catalyst for me,falling in love with history

(10:45):
and just being mesmerized bytheir, you know, they told me
very, in a way , stories verystoic how the delivery,
especially mygreat-grandfather, he died when
I was, when I was 10. So I gotto know him actually really
well. Mm-Hmm . .
And so he was in the trenchesof the First World War at 15
years old and then enlistedagain in the second. And then
his son, my , my grandpaWeingart enlisted in the Second

(11:08):
World War. And he died, I don'tknow, three years ago when he
was 96. My great grandmamalived to be 101. She died when
I was 21. So I got to know myancestors on a real personal
level as almost as an adult.
Not vivid, faded memory. Mm-Hmm. not faded
memories when I was three. AndI, no, I got to like meet, meet
them. And ,

Speaker 2 (11:29):
But you had that inquisitiveness and a love of
history that I'm sure you , youreally drew those conversations
out of them. You wanted to hearthe stories. Oh,

Speaker 3 (11:38):
Absolutely. Yeah .
The stories of my greatgrandpapa getting shot in the
first World War at 15 and beingshipped home. 'cause they found
out how old he was and hedidn't get home. He got off the
boat in Montreal andimmediately joined the Canadian
Navy and served the rest of thewar on awe . Brought the coast
of West Africa and got malariaand typhoid and all that . I
mean, he had a rough go. Andthen he enlisted a gate , and

(11:58):
then he opened a Forddealership actually when he got
home. And then it's stillthere. Wineguard Motors in
Caledonia, Ontario. Um, and theother thing, again, little
things, and I was fascinated bymusic lyrics as a kid. My , my
parents are both very musical,so I grew up playing the piano
and playing the guitar andsinging alongside my parents

(12:20):
and extended family. And I wasfascinated by Bob Dylan lyrics,
Lennon and McCartney lyrics ,um, Leonard Cohen, Gordon
Lightfoot, and the way theyplayed with words. It was
fascinating to me. And so, it'skind of a funny story, but my
writing career actually startedbecause I was a, I was a bit of

(12:41):
a turd when I was a kid andwould get in trouble a lot. So
as a punishment, when I was alittle kid, kind of beginning
around four or five years old.
And, and I did get in troubleenough, , my
parents would make me writestories of what I did, why it's
wrong, and what I could doinstead of doing that behavior,

(13:01):
whether it be hitting my sisterin the head with a hockey stick
or, you know, wrestlingwith a cat too hard, or, you
know, hitting my sister in thehead with a golf club or
whatever it was. Um, so I wouldwrite these stories as a little
kid , uh, you know, I shouldn'tdo this. And this is when some
of them are pretty funny aboutswearing and not swearing. Um,

(13:23):
but they saved them all sowonderful. We have a binder
full of my original writing, Iguess, from kind of four to
eight years old of thesestories about every time I got
in trouble, which was quitefrequent. Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
. Did you ever argue that what you
did wasn't wrong?

Speaker 3 (13:39):
Yeah, there's one about calling my sister a bad
name. And I , and I was adamantthat it was, it was totally
deserved and that I shouldn'thave to write this story. Yeah
. So the story was about why Ishouldn't have to write the
story Perfect . Becausecalling my sister this, this
bad word was totallyacceptable. Right .

Speaker 2 (13:56):
Was the right thing to do at the time. Well, I ,
one of the things I love aboutyour book, and I haven't read
the Mosquito or your or yourother, your , your other books,
but I've been reading this one, um, is I love Your etymology.
Um, I love that you are talkingabout the history of the words
and how many phrases come fromthe horse. And I find that

(14:17):
fascinating. So you, you have aa I mean, I guess most writers
have a good command of theEnglish language, but I I it's
so much more than a historybook. I really loved the
English part of it too.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah. And I mean, I , I play the guitar and sing. I
can't paint, I can't draw. Ihave many talents . Tim Art is
ask my students, when I drawmaps on the , on the
whiteboard, I can clear like,what is modern art? That's what
that is. Um, but I like tothink, I like the way words can
paint a picture. And I like howyou can play with words in a ,

(14:52):
in an artistic form. And as ateenager and into my twenties ,
um, I wrote a lot of poetry andI would write my own songs and
sing them and play at the pubswhen I was in undergrad and
whatever else. So I've alwayskind had a fascination with
words, whether that be, youknow, older poets like William

(15:12):
Blake or Arthur Mbo or JimMorrison of the Doors. And as I
mentioned, Gordon Lightfoot ,Bob Dylan, some of these
amazing songwriters in theimagery is, is so powerful.
Mm-Hmm. . And I ,I , I like to almost write kind
of like that. I know there areacademic , you know, history
books, but there's, I , I'dlike to think kind of an
artistic quality to the way Iwrite. But the ironic part is

(15:36):
48% of the world speaks inIndo-European language
currently. And English is oneof those Indo-European
languages along with past twoand Indian languages, and you
name it. And that's because thefirst people to domesticate
horses were Indo Europeans. Andthey spread their language in
DNA across Eurasia. And thenwith colonization that

(15:58):
continued. So we owe thisconversation, or the book in
itself written in English tohorses who helped spread the
Indo Indo-European language farand wide, because they were ,
uh, the first domesticatedhorses were domesticated by
Indo-European peoples on theCaspian step above the Black
Sea. So that's why we'respeaking English right now,

(16:20):
.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
So I wanna relate , um, a little bit of your
history with the history of thehorse. You , um, studied and
taught about indigenous peoplesin the Americas. Um, which an
amazing subject that I have tosay that in the times that I've
visited Canada, I've beenreally impressed with the way
the Canadians honor theindigenous history there. Uh ,

(16:42):
I know there's always gonna bearguments about, you know, how
things came about and the waythey are now. Mm-Hmm .
. But in anycase, I really loved , um, what
I saw there. Um, I think a lotof people think that the , uh,
indigenous peoples in the horsewere always here together, but
that's not the case.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
No. Well, thank you for that. About Canada. My
grandma actually is from theSixth Nations Reserve in
Canada. Um, she's Mohawk. Soit's part of my culture and my
heritage as well. And I'vespent lots of time on, we call
'em reserves in Canada, notreservations, but same concept
, um, as a kid and playedhockey with lots of indigenous
kids and friends. And so it'spart of kind of my upbringing

(17:22):
and culture as well. And alsojust being respectful of all
human beings. Yes. With acapital A, all human beings ,
uh, rule number one of JediismJedi's place other people
before themselves. I thinkthat's all I need to know is
rule number one. I don't needrule number two. Um, so yeah,
it's interesting. The horseactually, it evolves in North

(17:45):
America. It's a North Americananimal. So 60 million years
ago, kind of, we have this 10pound animal, roughly the size
of a fox with multiple toes.
And it bounds more like a deer.
It's the earliest ancestor ofthe horse we have.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
It had a little bit of a horse shaped head,

Speaker 3 (18:00):
A little bit of a horse shaped head. Um, and it's
called a hico Ethereum or adawn horse. And over 60 million
years, this creature evolves tobecome the magnificent animal
we have today. But theepicenter of equine evolution
is actually kind of Colorado,Wyoming , um, Montana, this
area. And so this area really,in a sense, gave birth to the

(18:22):
modern world order through theliving machine of the horse.
Um, so it , it is a fascinatingstory of evolution, but the
horse goes extinct in theAmericas roughly 9,000 years
ago. So when the first peoplesarrive to the Americas or
indigenous, the ancestors ofindigenous peoples, there are
horses here. But climatechange, kind of starting at the

(18:46):
end of the last ice age, 30,000years ago-ish to about 10,000
years ago, 85% of the largemegafauna go extinct in the
Americas 'cause of survivalpressure. So we had 4,000 pound
short face bears here, thosemassive ground slots , 500
pound beavers, camels, sabertooth cats, mastodon, wooly
mammoths, they all go extinct.
The horse actually hangs on alittle bit later than most of

(19:08):
these large animals.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
Can I ask, were , were there any horse fossils
found in the Snowmass , uh, andwhere they're found mastodons
and everything Yep . Horsesthat , because they were camels
,

Speaker 3 (19:17):
The MAs has

Speaker 2 (19:18):
Sloth , I

Speaker 3 (19:18):
Think has those old rack Ethereums . That's where
they're finding some of theearliest horse ancestors, that
10 pound fox light creature.
Um, so it , it , it's, it'sinteresting. And actually by
about 4,000 BCE, so 6,000 yearsago, the horse has largely gone
extinct across the entireplanet. Yeah. And there's only

(19:40):
a , a small pocket or herdsleft on the Eurasian step is
the largest contiguousgrasslands that run from
Hungary all the way toMongolian China. So part of
that is the Pontic Caspian stepabove the blacks in Caspian Sea
in modern day Ukraine, SouthernRussia, and the Kazakhstan.
This is the last vestige of thehorse, and this is where it's

(20:01):
domesticated roughly 3,500 BCE.
Um, and it's, there's a theoryout there, and it's quite
probable actually, thathumanity by domesticating the
horse actually reigned it infrom extinction. Mm-Hmm .
. And that itprobably would've gone extinct
along with large mammals acrossthe world because of climate
change, if humanity hadn'tessentially lend a helping hand

(20:25):
to reign it in from extinction.
Um, and then it's domesticatedby these Indo Europeans, as I
mentioned in that area. Andit's a lightning strike for
humanity. This equinerevolution fundamentally
changes the rules to the gameof life across every aspect of
human social society andculture.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
And I found it fascinating reading about the ,
uh, how grass had a role in, inthis area, being able to
support the horses because itdidn't support a lot of other
animals. A lot of other animalswere just moving through
because the grass is notnutrient rich , but the horse
developed in a way to be ableto take advantage of that.

Speaker 3 (21:07):
Yeah . So, I mean, evolution works in mysterious
ways. And again, most animalsgo extinct. They just can't
survive. The environmentalpressures, whether it's climate
change or resource changes ,uh, that are, are , are placed
on them, and they , they justcan't adapt. And again,
evolution is not a straightline, and it's luck. It , it's

(21:28):
not preordained and it's notone animal gives evolves into a
better animal. But that's nothow evolution works. It's it's
chance. And most evolutionarylines end up a dead end and in
extinction. So the horse isable to evolve over time from
having multiple toes andbounding and eating shrubbery

(21:49):
and fruits and berries andpulpy, you know, plants. As
this climate shifts and forestsgive way to grasslands in North
America, it evolves in the toesdisappear or emerge into a hard
hoof, which is a lot better onharder ground. Mm-Hmm .
, um, like the,the , the prairies and grass

(22:11):
changes the shape of its faceand its teeth, and the eyes
move back on the head. Themuzzle gets longer, it develops
a different digestive systemsystem than ruminants do. Like
cows, it's a hind guy digester,it digests in something called
a secum knot . Its stomach. Nowwe have a secum and ours is
about this big. And a horses isa massive tank, but it doesn't

(22:34):
digest very well, which is whyit has to eat almost
constantly. Yeah . Eating likea horse. Back to your point
about our, our kind ofcolloquial terms in our, our
language. So it just has toshove tons of grass through,
which is also why they donate alot of manure. Mm-Hmm .
. And you think aboutthese cities in the, you know,

(22:54):
1890s , uh, New York City alonehad 250 to 300,000 horses. Can
you imagine donating tons ofmanure, I mean, thousands of ,
tons of manure every day. Andso the, the Brownstone row
houses we see in New York City,like in Seinfeld and all those
shows where there's the stepsup to the first floor, those

(23:17):
are designed on purpose to riseabove the sea of manure and
urban muck that just coated thesidewalks. So I , I mean,
that's a little kind of tidbit,but it , it's, it's inspired
and built Yeah . As a pragmaticreaction to, I mean, just, they
just shoveled it over to theside of the road kind of, and

(23:39):
parks and vague alleyways were60 feet tall piles of manure,
and they're escorting disease

Speaker 2 (23:46):
. So when did the horse come back to North
America?

Speaker 3 (23:49):
The horse comes back on Columbus's second voyage.
His first voyage is threeterrible ships , uh, very
underfunded with like 90 guys.
And then he somehow gets lost,8,000 miles lost, hits the
island of his granola , um,introduces European disease and
goes back to Spain. And they'reamazed. He came back. Ferdinand

(24:10):
and Isabella, queen , king andqueen of Spain are, they're , I
would love to have been in thatroom when he walks back into
the court and they're like,this what? This dude came back.
And , uh, then they pile abunch of money into his second
voyage, which contains all theBarnard animals, including
horses. So they make their wayfrom Espanola to Cuba , uh,

(24:32):
from Cuba to Mexico withCortez, and then from Mexico,
they make their way up into thesouthwest. Really. Santa Fe is,
is the northern limit line ofSpanish penetration, or, you
know, occupation, if you will.
And from Santa Fe, they, thehorses are punched out across

(24:52):
America and southern Canada.
The , the Great Plains run fromnorthern Mexico all the way
into Canada. So in indigenous,people quickly grab onto the
horse, whether they're raidingthe Spanish and stealing them,
whether they're stealing themfrom rival tribes, or they're
grabbing them feral horse herdsthat, you know, have escaped.
And two cultures specificallyon the plains in the nor first

(25:15):
in the southern plains. Itstarts with the Comanche, who
are a splinter band of Shoshonewho come down into Oklahoma,
Texas from what is Wyoming,Idaho, where the Shoshone are
still. And they become horselords of the southern plains.
And in the north it's theLakota Mm-Hmm .
or known as the Sioux. ButLakota's preferred. Um, and

(25:36):
this is later in the northernplains, but we, like , it's
kind of contrary to what peoplethink is people think that
within the Colombian exchange,after, you know, part of
colonization that indigenouspeoples don't get anything good
from Europeans except for thehorse. Right. I mean, the
disease rates are terrible, and95% of indigenous people are

(25:59):
dead within the first 200 yearsof European contact That equals
estimates. 95 million people. Imean , it , it , it's just such
a saddening tale of differentecosystems and non-immune
peoples. They don't havedisease here. So then the dying
of small smallpox is , is thebig killer measles. Yeah . Um,

(26:21):
tuberculosis, malaria. So wethink, well, but they got the
horse. That's actually nottrue. The horse was just as bad
as smallpox. Um, it's aninvasive species like smallpox,
tumbleweed, and Europeans. Andit ultimately bites the hand
that feeds, because when theyadopt the horse, they're able
to enter the Americancapitalist fur trade system,

(26:43):
which undermines theirtraditional gender roles in
egalitarian societies. So theComanche, for example, are
harvesting 575,000 bison a yearto supply the American
capitalist fur trade. So byentering the capitalist system
system ,

Speaker 2 (27:00):
How , before the arrival of the horse here,
what's the estimate on how manythey were harvesting

Speaker 3 (27:03):
A year? I , I mean, their populations, they
would've been sus sustainasustainable hunting because
you're on foot Mm-Hmm.
, you don't havethe ability to hunt bison at an
industrial level until thehorse arrives. So they would
sometimes run them off cliffs,like head smashed in buffalo,
jump in Alberta, that famousworld heritage site, or they

(27:27):
would use hunters to corralthem into , uh, dead ends in
slot canyons or whatever else.
But there was no need toharvest more than you could eat
because there's no capitalism.
So surplus is irrelevant. Sowhen they , you

Speaker 2 (27:43):
Might, you might have a little extra to dry or
smoke Well,

Speaker 3 (27:46):
For the winter. For the winter, but they would know
how many that was based ontheir population. Yeah . And so
it's a sustainable resource.
And there's , there's nosurplus needed because
capitalism doesn't exist in theform that it exists in , in
Europe. So when the fur tradecomes, they enter this
capitalism. 'cause they havethe ability to harvest bison at
an industrial level, whichthere were 60 million bison

(28:07):
roaming the great plains whenEuropeans arrive . And their
lowest population is around1900, and there's 2,600 left in
total, mostly in Canada. Soit's not just Europeans who ,
or Americans who slaughter thebison like buffalo bill to
starve out indigenous peoplesto go onto the reservation.
Specifically the Lakotaindigenous people are doing a ,

(28:31):
a damage to their own resourceby entering this fur trading
capitalist system. What thatdoes is create a hierarchy of
power, and it creates wealth inthe form of horses to attain
more bison. Then these men can, uh, they have more bride
wealth to get multiple bridesupwards of 20 wives. And the

(28:52):
fathers are all too happy tounload their daughters, because
by this point, a lot of theseplains nations are upwards of
65 to 75% women because ofthese horse wars and constant
warfare introduced by thehorse, essentially. So in
these, these wives are treatedterribly, essentially, they're

(29:12):
used to process bison for thiscontinual cycle of attaining,
and it undermines theirsocieties. The American
administration then uses thoughthat hierarchy as a , as a
tactic of divide and conquer.
It means sitting bull's killedby its own people. So

Speaker 2 (29:30):
It's this tragic story. We , this we have this
romantic vision of a NativeAmerican on his horse. Right.
And the , and the role that thehorses plays, I think is very
romantic, but it did wreakhavoc

Speaker 3 (29:40):
Yeah . Ultimately on the

Speaker 2 (29:41):
Indigenous peoples.

Speaker 3 (29:42):
Yeah. It , it came back to bite the hand that
feeds, and it , it leads in asense to their own subjugation.
And it's very contrary to thepopular opinion of, or this
romantic view and certainly ,um, this misplaced frontier
spirit , uh, with headdress andhorse. Mm-Hmm. .
And that's not actually true.
It's actually a , a , a sadstory and a destructive story.

(30:06):
The horse ends up being just asdestructive as some of the
other European imports, whetherthat's capitalism tied to the
horse, smallpox, you know,malaria or the rest of it. So
it's, it's , um, no, itultimately is a , is a weapon
of subjugation againstindigenous peoples.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
So you, you had , um, a a love of history and a
love of , uh, warfare history,and the , the horse fit into
warfare in a big way, and notjust in the, with the native
populations, but wow. What amachine it turned warfare into
when you could really travellong distances, attack , uh, be

(30:47):
swift. I mean, it changedeverything.

Speaker 3 (30:50):
Uh , I mean, changes all facets of humanity from
agricultural production totrade, to travel to warfare to
traction. It makes the worldimmeasurably smaller because
before that, you had your owntwo feet and your world
wouldn't really extend too faroutside of what your feet
could, could carry you. And allof a sudden, this living

(31:13):
machine, you know, isdomesticated. And again ,
again, it's an organic animal,but we have to think of the
horse as a machine becausethat's what it was used for.
Mm-Hmm . , it'sutilitarian purposes. We're the
same as the internal combustiontoday, which we've only had for
a hundred years. The horse wehad for 5,500 years doing all
the same purposes. So whetherit's warfare, trade, traction,

(31:36):
travel, migration , um, it ,it's all this living machine
that made the world smaller.
And the exchange of ideas, theexchange of pathogens, the
exchange of inventions of DNAof language, it was just kicked
into hyper drive by thisamazing creature , um, that we
helped it evolve in a way asthe pinnacle of biotechnology.

(32:00):
So just almost immediately whenwe domesticate the horse on
that , the Indo Europeans onthe Ponte Caspian step, they
start selectively breedinghorses. Yes. To make them more,
better

Speaker 2 (32:13):
Behavior

Speaker 3 (32:14):
And a flatter back to make them more rideable. So
we see this living laboratoryimmediately upon domestication.
And then like anything else, weupgrade the capabilities of the
horse with amendments, whetherthat be bits or saddles or
stirrups or the horse color foragriculture and traction. Um ,

(32:34):
and then rains. And we attachthis to plows and chariots
eventually, and wagons. And sothis, this pinnacle of
biotechnology or this livingmachine becomes a very
sophisticated invention, if nothumanity's greatest invention.
Mm-Hmm . .

Speaker 2 (32:52):
As a historian, do you get emotional about the
plight of the horse? Or do ,are you able to just look at it
from a historical, because I,I'm such an animal lover, and
I, I think a horse is such abeautiful animal. I found
myself getting really emotionalabout what we've done to this
animal.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
I mean, I suppose look what we've done to
ourselves too, though. Yeah.
Um, and you can say, well,horses didn't have a choice.
They were conscripted into ourwars, whether the cause was
noble or nefarious, which iscertainly true, but human
beings a lot of the time areconscripted into our wars.
Whether the cause is noble ornefarious as well. So I , I

(33:31):
mean, It , it's, it's, you haveto, as a historian, kind of
take the bias out of it andtake the emotion out of it ,
um, to ride it properly or toview it properly. Mm-Hmm.
. And I think,and , and certainly horses were
treated terribly, whether theywere urban horses delivering
Budweiser beer or pulling cabsand omni buses in New York,

(33:54):
Baltimore, Chicago, London, orParis. Um, and they were
treated perhaps better onfarms. But at the end of the
day, I mean, they didn't have achoice, but they produced
profit. And since the dawn ofthe agricultural revolution
12,000 years ago, every singledecision that human humanity

(34:15):
makes is based on profit. Sothey were a profit spinning
engine that was used a acrossevery facet of, of humanity and
certainly hauled into place allthe foundational building
blocks of our modern worldorder. And the internal
combustion engine just kind ofrode the tails of the horse. It
had already laid all that,those modern attributes. And ,

(34:37):
and the car just kind ofaccelerated those, it didn't
invent them, the horse inventedthem. Mm-Hmm. ,

Speaker 2 (34:42):
I read just this week about some cities that are
eliminating their horse drawncarriages finally.

Speaker 3 (34:48):
Yeah. I was interviewed actually. Were you?
Yeah, San Antonio was one ofthem that's thinking about
getting rid of them. And I , I, I'm torn those horses.
There's a lot. There's, so theones in New York City and
Central Park, there is very,very strict laws surrounding
those horses and how long theycan work, how many days a week

(35:10):
they can work there . There'sgovernment agencies that come
and test them and make surethey're being taken care of,
and that they're getting theirvaccines and they're healthy.
So, in my opinion, in thehorses being taken care of,
horses like to work is whatthey do. They're okay with it
so long as they're not beingabused. Mm-Hmm.
similar to brutal Bob'sElephant Bizarre , where you

(35:33):
see these elephants incaptivity or Yeah . I , I can't
watch, I don't, what's thatguy's name? Tiger King or Tiger
King shows like this. No, Ican't, my wife watch . And
she's like, you , you don'twanna watch that. I , I can't
like you. I just, I can't evenwatch those commercials where
the dog , like for the Save theDogs uhhuh , where they're all
the change

Speaker 2 (35:53):
That initiated . And yeah ,

Speaker 3 (35:54):
I have to change the channel because, you know, I'm,
I'm a rough, tough Canadianhockey player, , but I
have a pretty tender heart .

Speaker 2 (36:02):
So , um, your book previous to the horse was
called The Mosquito. How didyou get on that topic? Well,
and how did you get on eithertopic? How do you decide what
to write next?

Speaker 3 (36:15):
Um, so my first four books were more kind of
specialized, I guess, innature. They all revolved in
some form around indigenouspeoples , um, and military
history. Um, so after I, andthen my fourth book was on How
Oil during the First World Warand the Paris Peace Conference

(36:38):
, uh, led to basicallyeverywhere since . Um, so
connecting the dots betweennine 11 or even what's going on
in the Ukraine right now. Yeah. To the end of the First World
War. So it's called the FirstWorld Oil Oil War. And it looks
at kind of this pattern afterthe first World War War about
how petroleum became to, youknow , dominate global

(36:58):
economies back to the internalcombustion engine, ,
but also plastics and rubbersand nylon and rayon and poly.
It's all made from petroleum. Imean, everything in this room
is made from petroleum. So itis the mainstay of the global
economy, whether we like it ornot. Um, so after I finished my
fourth book, which is the one Imet my wife when I was at the
Archives, US Archives , um, Isat down with my dad and he

(37:22):
loves history too. And, and hereads, you know, all tons of
books. And I said, dad, I wantto write an airport book. And
he said, what , what the helldo you mean by that ? I
said, well, I want write a booklike Guns , germs and Steel, or
Great Book or Salt by MarkKurlansky . Mm-Hmm .
or his cod bookor, but a , a book that's not,

(37:43):
that's aimed for the generalreader that's not, it's still
highly researched, but it'swritten in a way that appeals
to a broad audience like Guns ,germs, and Steel and Salt and
Cod or The Fifth Extinction byElizabeth Colbert. All these
books or , uh, what's The StiffBy Mary Roach? Like these type
of,

Speaker 2 (37:59):
I've not read that one.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
These type of books.
I call 'em Maryport books'cause it's the only ones that
the bookstore in the airportOh,

Speaker 2 (38:05):
I see, okay . Kind of books . I got it. Yeah .

Speaker 3 (38:08):
So he , and he got it and he's like, yeah, yeah, I
get it. He's like, you gotta dosomething big. You gotta do
something global. And we werebrainstorming. He's like, you
know what, malaria's making acomeback. You should write a
book on malaria. And I'm likekind of half joking and giving
him a little bit of the gears.
I was like, yeah, dad, sure.
I'll just write a book on howthe mosquito transformed and
shaped the world. And he'slike, that's a great idea. You

Speaker 2 (38:30):
Both probably went

Speaker 3 (38:32):
. And I'm like, so I started doing the
research and down the rabbithole. And the more I researched
and realized that no one hadwritten a book about this,
about how the mosquito, butessentially the mosquito itself
is harmless. The pathogens thathit a free ride via the
mosquito have shaped andtransformed humanity. The

(38:53):
mosquito is by far the biggestkiller of humanity ever. It's
not even a contest. It far ,uh, outpaces number two, which
is our fellow human beings, orI mean, it's , it's not even
remotely in the same league.
Um, that this tiny littlething, the size and weight of a
grape seed has had thisenormous punching power through

(39:14):
the transmission of malaria,yellow fever, dengue, and
thousands of other pathogens.
Um, whether that's on thedifferent development of
economies in the southernhemisphere to the northern
hemisphere, or, you know,tropical ecologies to the more
wealthy northern nations withmalaria to warfare. And

(39:36):
cornwallis surrendering atYorktown was because of
malaria. So the annoysmosquito, 'cause only females
bite, is a founding mother ofthe United States. Um, because
the, the, the mosquito forcesto surrender Corn Wallace . It
was just fascinating to see inthese primary sources. And
looking back at history throughthe lens compound lens, if you

(39:57):
will, of the eyes of themosquito , um, how
prevalent this, this tinylittle animal was in shaping
such profound events in humanhistory. So after them , which
received, was very wellreceived. And it was a New York
Times bestseller, New York

Speaker 2 (40:16):
Times bestseller.
That's amazing.

Speaker 3 (40:17):
And it printed in 15 languages all over the world.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
I loved when I looked on Amazon and saw all
the different languages it wasin . That must feel really
incredible.

Speaker 3 (40:25):
It's surreal to be honest. Yeah . Like, it's
humbling. But at the same time, um, I'll give my wife a shout
here, because when the mosquitobecame so popular and all the
bestseller lists and all thepublicity that came with it,
and all the talk shows andradio and TV and everything
else, my wife was on one ofthese, I don't know if it was

(40:46):
CBS or NBC's. Good. It doesn'tmatter. And they said, well,
what do you think about, youknow, your husband having all
this fame and success and, andbeing such a , like, you know,
and she's like, look to me.
He's still the same guy whofarts in the dog's face and
laughs his off . AndI'm like, and that is why I

(41:06):
love my , that answer isperfect. Uh ,

Speaker 2 (41:10):
She said that on national television. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (41:12):
I think so. It doesn't change who I am at all.
I'm still a small town Canadianboy want to be a hockey player
. Um, and I'm still the sameperson and the kind person and
tries my my best every day toput others before myself. Yeah
. Um, as Yoda teaches, so the

Speaker 2 (41:30):
Jedi

Speaker 3 (41:30):
Way. Yep . And so I guess after the mosquito book ,
um, and that one, my otherbooks were published with
university presses and themosquito was published by
Penguin Random House. So it'slike, again, an airport book,
like Big Step Up. Yeah. And sothey had the right of first
refusal to my next book, whichturned out to be the horse. So

(41:51):
after the mosquito sat downwith my dad again and thought
about kind of other just biginfluences in, in humanity that
we don't think of or kind ofoften go under the radar. And I
just thought about, well, therewas a series of events that
happened actually because themosquito came out in 2019. And

(42:14):
then obviously in March, 2020the world shut down 'cause of
Covid . And so we finished oursemester online at CMU and I
had been thinking of otherbooks to write and nothing kind
of, I had lots of ideas, butthe editors didn't like any of
that . Penguin didn't like anyof them. My agent didn't like
them. And so I was kind offrustrated and, and obviously I

(42:35):
was also frustrated that Icouldn't watch my beloved NHL
hockey Games. Uhhuh . So I turned
tuned into ESPN eight , theocho , uh, live from Leadville,
Colorado. And they werebroadcasting 'cause it was
outside, they were broadcastingski joing , which is
essentially a person on skisbeing pulled with a person
riding a horse. Yeah . And I'mwatching it .

Speaker 2 (42:57):
And , and it's a big deal in Leadville. Like they've
had this competition for a longtime.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
Yes. So it was live from, and I'm , I'd never seen
this before. And my wife lookedat me and I'm like, that's one
of the oddest things I've everseen. But it's kind of, it's
entertaining and it's sportsand I'm enthralled. And then a
little bit later on, gettinginto the spring , uh, I took my
dog Steve O , who's a 25 poundcockapoo named Steve. Um, I

(43:23):
took him for a walk and hestarted smelling. We , our
neighbors have horses and here, so a bunch of them, actually
various neighbors have horses.
So I actually saw them onSaturday. They were just
clopping down our street, andit was like nine in the morning
and they were drinking a Coronaas they were riding the horses
down the street at nine in themorning. Nice . And I'm like, I

(43:44):
was gonna hockey practice. AndI wrote down , I'm like, nice
guys, nice all cowboy hat every, you know, cheers with a
Corona. Um, so I, I saw themhorseback riding and actually
they overtook some kids whowere walking to school or
somewhere. And then I overtookthe horseback riders in my car
and I thought, wow, think aboutthis shift from transportation

(44:05):
to our feet, to our horses tocars. Which was kind of a
another signal of like, oh ,okay. The horse. And then Steve
was sniffing some manure, my,my, my cockapoo and I thought
about urban centers at thepinnacle of horsepower and how
much manure would, and it kindof was like, wow. 'cause that's

(44:28):
just one pile of horse manure.
And then I started researchingthe horse and then it kind of
came that way and I pitched itto my editors and agent at
Penguin. And , and they'relike, that's it, that's it.
Write this book. Yeah. Um, sothe next one though, won't be
on an animal because there'sreally no other animal that's
impacted human history, likethose two. Well,

Speaker 2 (44:45):
How long did it take you to write the book? About

Speaker 3 (44:47):
Four years from start to finish.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
That's amazing. Um, back to hockey. So you're ,
you're professor, associateprofessor at CMU. How many
classes do you teach?

Speaker 3 (44:59):
Our full load is four and four Uhhuh
. So I teach likeevery other professor. I teach
four classes a semester.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
And , um, and you are coaching the CMU hockey
team,

Speaker 3 (45:09):
Which takes way more time.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
. So that's your full-time job? Yeah,

Speaker 3 (45:13):
I have two full-time and then on top of writing and
a family. Mm-Hmm .
. It's , uh, Idon't sleep very, I thank the
military for not having tosleep very much. Um, so I
started teaching at CMU in2012. And there , I remember
when I moved here, because as Imentioned, the town of the city
of Sarnia, where I come from isabout 20 minutes from my little

(45:33):
town. And there's, you know,eight rinks. Mm-Hmm.
. It's about70,000 people and there's eight
rinks and there's about ,there's the rinks everywhere.
So Junction is a little bitbigger. And I thought of
Colorado as, at least inAmerican terms as being a
hockey state.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
Yeah. Winter zone

Speaker 3 (45:50):
. Yeah. Like Minnesota's a hockey state.
Mm-Hmm . Michigan's a hockey state.
Massachusetts is a hockeystate. And I, I thought about
Colorado being a hockey state,and when I moved here, I was
like, well, where's the rinks?
And my wife says, there isnone. There isn't one. I'm
like, what? Mm-Hmm.
. You don't havea rink injunction. She's like,
we used to. And then it closed.
And I was like, all right . Soit wasn't open. It had shut

(46:14):
down. And then I had players,students who were hockey
players come to my office.
'cause they found out , youknow, who I was and said, Dr.
Weingart , if the rink reopens,will you restart the hockey
team? Because there was ahockey team at Mesa State way
back when. Mm-Hmm.
. But when therink closed, it kind of went by
the wayside. And, and, and so Isaid, well, sure. And so it was

(46:39):
kind of this, and then the rinkreopened and I said, okay, I'll
kind of revamp or restart thehockey team that had existed
prior with Mesa State. And sothat was 2014. Um, and I've
been the to coach ever since.

Speaker 2 (46:55):
Well, thank you for doing that. . There's a
, there's a pretty good , um,hockey community here now, and
I'm excited about young menlike Nori getting into , uh,
hockey and my , my boyfriend'sson plays, and I love going to
the ice rink and watching, andI see that they're expanding
the , the seats. We ,

Speaker 3 (47:15):
That's awesome.
Yeah. I mean, I'm assuming beento a CMU game. It's packed in
there and it was like five rowsdeep of standing room only.
Yeah . So yeah, the bleacherswill hold. I , I can't remember
what John , um, and Lisa, themanagers of the ring told me.
But I , I , I'm around 900 andI think the , the , the bottom

(47:36):
a hundred will actually bestadium seats and then
bleachers from there up. And Ihope I'm right, or John and
Lisa will be upset with me . But , but they're ,
they , they're being built andthey, they go all the way up to
the top and certainly see , Ithink around 900, which is a
huge , uh, at least more thandouble what the , the old
bleachers sat . So for CMUgames and I guess the , the Cap

(47:57):
Rock high school team and Yeah.
And River Hawks, it'll be,it'll be , uh, it'll be
awesome. So I , I'm thrilledwith that. Um, and , and I'm
glad that hockey is, you know,with the new management of the
rink in Jackson Wilson with theRiver Hawks, and there's just
such excitement around hockeyhere. Yeah .

Speaker 2 (48:18):
There

Speaker 3 (48:18):
Really is . And it's so exciting to see the little
kids out there and the Learn toSkate programs and the high
school team now, which is newas of last year,

Speaker 2 (48:25):
And a lot of women playing too.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
And the women, yeah . Girls hockey and women's
adult leagues. And like, it'sjust so nice. As someone who, I
mean, hockey's just in my DNAas part of who I am , uh, I'm
thrilled just to see the sport.
And I think the avalanchemaking that run to the Stanley
Cup definitely helped, youknow, I guess expose people to

(48:49):
hockey. Mm-Hmm . . And I've met a lot of people
who that was their firstexposure to hockey , uh,
whether it was students or CMUprofessors, and now they're
hooked and they come to all theCMU games and they absolutely
love it. That's , and as theyshould, it's the best sport.
It's the best sport in theworld. So I'm not surprised
when you watch it go , it'swonderful. You go,

Speaker 2 (49:05):
Wow, you do go. Wow.
I mean, when you watch thoseplayers skate forward and
backward as fast as they dowith as much precision, and
then still trying to move thislittle thing around the ice and
it's mind , mind

Speaker 3 (49:16):
While someone's trying to take your head off.
Yeah. I mean, there's that partof it too, so , yeah . Right .
So , I mean, I love football,don't get me wrong. I'm a , I'm
a passionate Detroit Lions fanand have been my whole life ,
uh, which hasn't been a goodthing until the last, until
last year really. It waspainful to be a Lions fan until
last year and I guess LA or ,uh, Sunday they looked, they
looked okay. They good , butgood .

Speaker 2 (49:39):
Well, it , it's been an absolute pleasure having you
here. Um, as we close, I just,you've, you've done so many
things in your life alreadythat you've, you're so , uh,
accomplished, but you, you ,you have a lot of fullness in
your life. What would you sayyou're most proud of?

Speaker 3 (49:57):
Uh , I mean, it comes down to just being a , a
kind person. Respect andaccountability are the two
words I try to live by. And ,um, again, this is instilled in
me by my parents andgrandparents and, you know,
even great-grandparents. Um, Ijust, again, we, we all fail
miserably at it, but to trysometimes my best to , to , to

(50:19):
put others before myself, andbecause it , it makes you, it
makes me feel better when I'mnice to other people. And , uh,
just to live with humility and,and respect and accountability.
And at the same time, just tryto enjoy life. We don't get a
dress rehearsal and you onlyget one. So I, I think whether

(50:41):
it's having fun with the boysat hockey and, you know, it's
not, none of us are gonna makea living out of hockey at the
CMU hockey team, but to be partof the team and to , to be part
of their lives, like, it's justsuch a reward for me and I'm so
thankful for them, not theother way around. Um, so just
try to have fun and en enjoythe ride, pardon the pun with

(51:04):
the horse, but

Speaker 2 (51:06):
. Well, Timothy c Wineguard , I wanna
encourage everybody to , uh,get the book , uh, the Mosquito
as well and your four otherbooks. Um, I'm really excited
to read more , um, sign up, goto class at CMU. Right.
, if you're not a student, youcan, you can audit, you can

(51:26):
Yeah . Sign up as an adultlearner and go to some history
classes. I would love to,

Speaker 3 (51:31):
Or any class . I mean, there is such, the amount
of academia, the things thatprofess not , not just me and I
exclude myself, actually, thereis so much amazing stuff that
goes on at CMU that the publicjust is not aware of, of what
research and inventions and theamazing things that professors
are doing at CMU. It really isincredible. And I wish, you

(51:54):
know, there was some avenuewhere this could be shown off,
I think more to the public ,um, because some people, oh ,
these, these universitystudents and, you know, some
people have a negative opinionof, you know, the university or
perhaps the students, which Ithink is unwarranted. But it is
amazing what professors aredoing at CMU. And , um, I'm,

(52:15):
I'm proud to be a small part ofit. We're

Speaker 2 (52:17):
Truly fortunate to have such a wonderful
university here in our town.

Speaker 3 (52:21):
I fully agree. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
Thank you so much for your time. I know you're
busy. Appreciate you comingover . Of course. Um ,
uh, excited about your NPR Turnthe page , uh, looking forward
to that. And , uh, I, I lookforward to , uh, hopefully
having another conversation. Icould just talk to you for
hours about the horse and themosquito and everything else.
So I hope we get to run intoeach other again in the future
.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
Sounds good. Me too.
Thank you for having

Speaker 2 (52:43):
Me. Thank you very much. This is Kristy Reese
signing off from the FullCircle Podcast. We'll see you
next time. Thanks. Thanks forlistening. This is Christy
Reese signing out from the FullCircle Podcast.