Soil Issues in Western Colorado - Full Circle with The Christi Reece Group

There is a lot of talk about soil issues in Western Colorado and how it can affect building a house in this area. Christi talks with Michael Berry with Huddleston-Berry Engineering and Testing and Dave Hancock from Porter Homes to discuss the challenges, but also the solutions for dealing with our unique soil issues in the Grand Valley.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):


Speaker 2 (00:06):
The Full Circle podcast, compelling interviews
and incredible tales fromColorado's Western Slope, from
the mountains to the desert.
Christy Reese and her team herefrom the Movers Shakers, and
characters of the Grand Valleyand surrounding mountain towns
that make the Western slope theplace we all love. You'll
learn, you'll laugh, you'lllove with the full circle. Hi
everyone, and welcome back tothe Full Circle Podcast. I'm

(00:27):
your host, Christy Reese, andI'm really excited today to
have a great conversation aboutthe challenges we have with our
soils and building homes herein the Grand Valley. And our
guests are Mike Berry with ,um, uh, Huddleston Berry
Engineering and Testing. Thanksfor being here, Mike. Thank
you. And Dave Hancock, theowner and operator of Porter

(00:49):
Homes Construction.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
Thanks for having us. Thanks

Speaker 2 (00:51):
For being here. Um, so let's start off with a
little background on both ofyou. Um, Dave, tell us a little
bit about your constructionhistory.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
Sure. So, you know, I, I started in the
construction industry on, onthe residential and commercial
construction side a little overfive years ago now. Uh , so
it's still relatively new tothe part, this part of the
industry. Before that , um,really all I knew was coal
mining and oil field and thearmy. So , um, this is

(01:22):
definitely my passion and, and, uh, I look forward to
learning everything I can and

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah. But you stepped into a position with a
very , um, uh, a builder with avery strong reputation here in
town. Yes. Um , Porter Homes .
How , how has Nate's transition, uh, over to you? How does,
what does that look like?

Speaker 3 (01:44):
That's a good , that's a good question. Uh , I
would say that's kind of anevery evolving door. Um, you
know, Nate does a lot of landdevelopment stuff here in the
Grand Valley's, doing a greatjob with it. We got some good
things coming. Um, the bigfocus for me was taking over on
the vertical construction sideso we could really fine tune a
few things and, and make it tothe next level. Mm-hmm

(02:06):
. And so I'mhappy to be here. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
Great. And Mike, tell us a little bit about your
background in engineering andsoils.

Speaker 4 (02:16):
Well , uh, I've been doing this for almost 30 years
now. Uh , I did undergraduateat Colorado School of Mines. I
grew up on the front range. Um,worked out east for a few
years, learned quite a bit ,uh, of what's going on out
there. Went to grad school andthen , uh, moved my family back

(02:36):
to Colorado. Um, ended up hereon the Western slope. Uh , I
didn't really wanna work inDenver. Yeah . So , uh, I've
learned a lot since I've beenhere. I've been here for almost
20 years, well, I guess alittle over 20 years. Uh ,
things have changed quite abit. The soils obviously, that
we have out here are , um, notoptimal. I mean, every area has

(03:00):
its challenges, but I thinkthis area has some stuff that's
special. I enjoy it. Uh ,there's often things that still
surprise me, even even havingbeen doing it this long mm-hmm
. Um, but yeah,it's really, really great to be
here.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
I know today we're gonna focus on construction and
what that, what the soils meanfor construction and housing,
but what other kinds of thingsdoes your company do to help
people investigate soils andwhy?

Speaker 4 (03:29):
So in addition to the building, whether it's a
commercial or residentialconstruction, we do things like
, uh, slope stability analysis,retaining wall designs, pretty
much , uh, anything that has todo with soil or bedrock , um,
geologic hazards. Uh , I'm suremost people listening to this

(03:49):
have driven down , uh, towardBlue Mesa Reservoir and you can
see all the landslides. Yeah.
Uh , those soils are obviouslya little different than what we
deal with here in the GrandValley. Uh, but there are some
areas where those things comeup. The, the big slide that
happened , uh, last year, Ithink , uh, 29 Road. Um, so we

(04:09):
do things with that, try tomanage those risks and mitigate
the risks associated with that.
Uh, the bulk of what we do isnew construction, commercial
and residential, but , uh, wekind of handle all of the
geologic and geotechnical

Speaker 2 (04:27):
For risks for consumers. And are you , uh,
consulting with governmentagencies as well?

Speaker 4 (04:32):
Uh, we do do some government work, not a whole
lot. Most of it is eithercommercial, residential, or
institutional. Um, we do mostof the work for CMU. Um, we do
work with the hospitals here,St . Mary's and , uh, family
Health West. We've done a lotfor them. Um, government's, its

(04:54):
own special entity, and there'sa lot of requirements , uh, in
terms of , uh, hoops that youhave to jump through. So we
don't, we don't delve intothat. There are some folks that
do, but that's not really ourstrong suit.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
And, and obviously there's public land that may
have sub subsidence. Is thatwhat you call the slumping?

Speaker 4 (05:17):
Uh , no, that's , uh, would be a slumping. Okay.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
Slump

Speaker 4 (05:19):
Lum type failure .
Yeah . Okay.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
Um, obviously there's some public lands with
issues like that, but whenyou're looking at , uh,
somebody that wants to build ordevelop, the onus is on the
builder developer to, to showthe condition of the soils and
then go to the governmentagencies and and determine what
needs to be done before theycan develop and build. Correct,

Speaker 4 (05:42):
Yeah. On public lands , um, it would be the
buyer, I'll , I'll use a goodexample would be , uh, do Rios
here, just down the road. Um,the city owned that land. They
bought it from whomever ownedit prior to that, and I don't
think anybody was aware that ,uh, it had been used as a

(06:02):
landfill over the decadesmm-hmm . Um, and
so we had to do a bunch ofinvestigation to try to
evaluate where those pockets ofwaste were and what we were
gonna do to try to mitigate therisk of settlement of, of new
construction when the city ,uh, decided to start selling
off lots. And in fact , um,even one of the recent projects

(06:26):
that's under constructionacross from the Starbucks , uh,
encountered some waste thateverybody had thought was no
longer there, uhhuh . And so
obviously that createscomplications with , uh, who's
gonna pay for that and , uh,creates challenges for sure.
Mm-hmm .

Speaker 2 (06:45):
Dave, let's talk a little bit about how soil
challenges can affect , uh,people's decision making
process when they're looking tobuild a home.

Speaker 3 (06:55):
Yeah. So , uh, a good place to start is overall
costs , right? If , if we haveyour typical standard , uh,
custom home build it , it'svery important where they
decide on purchasing a lot,biggest reason being the soils.
And that's why I rely on Mikeand his team so much to help
out with finding some of that ,um, the overall cost. It could

(07:17):
kind of change dramatically.
You know, I , I'm not astructural engineer, so I can't
necessarily design that, butwe'll have a good idea of, of
overall footprint of the homeand , uh, what we'd kind of be
looking at , um, in terms ofcost specifically to the
budget. You know, right now, Ithink the last time I priced
them out fairly recently wasabout 1800 bucks per micro pile

(07:40):
, you know, 30, 40, 50 footdepths. There's so much
variation there. Yeah. And soit , I'd like to try to talk
ahead of time with each clientif they haven't already
purchased a lot, it's a littleeasier to help kind of navigate
them to what already fits theirbudget. Mm-hmm .
You know, when somebody comesto me and they say, Hey, you

(08:00):
know, we wanna build a amillion dollar home, but it's
not this multimillion dollarproject, you know, we have to
very seriously consider whatkind of parameters we have to
stick within.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
We have talked to clients about that. I know ,
um, Kim Faron , who worksmm-hmm . With
Porter Homes Yep . You know,has met some clients who say ,
we already have our lot and wewant Porter to build us a house
and, and here's our budget. Andyou think, well, when you
bought the lot , uh, were youaware that there were some,
maybe some soil issues andthat's gonna change your BA
budget drastically. Right. So

Speaker 3 (08:32):
Absolutely,

Speaker 2 (08:33):
You're right. Having a conversation with a builder
before you purchase is reallysmart.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
It's helpful for sure. I, I've probably had over
just even the last year,probably four or five different
clients approach me beforepurchasing a lot, which was
helpful. Mm-hmm .
Um, I actually kind of jumpedthrough some hoops outside of,
you know, the business hours onnormal and tried to figure out,
let's, let's try to get a soilsreport done. If, if you can
have a , a timeframe before yougo under contract and finalize

(09:00):
this deal, let's figure outwhat it really looks like,
because that can absolutelymake or break a project for
somebody. Mm-hmm .

Speaker 2 (09:07):
Question for you, Mike. Is there always a way to
build on a piece of property? Imean, no matter the soil
conditions you can build on itas long as you can afford
.

Speaker 4 (09:17):
That's right .
That's the , uh, uh, oldengineering adage is , uh, we
can do whatever you want. It'sjust a matter of what it's
gonna cost to do it. Mm-hmm. Um, and going
back to what Dave was saying ,uh, having been in the valley
so long and having done this, Ido have a lot of my clients ,
uh, Nate's team has done it inthe past. And some of my other

(09:39):
builder clients, they'll , um,call me ahead of time if
they're in an area where therehasn't been a SOS report done
for the subdivision, and ask ,uh, what my expectation is for
that area. Mm-hmm . Uh, if we've done other lots
in that subdivision or whetheror not, and it can make a
difference on whether or not ,uh, someone's willing to buy

(09:59):
the lot mm-hmm .
And of course , uh, the economyof it. Uh , you get into the
multimillion dollar homes that, uh, Redlands Mesa, a lot of
those , um, and those folksdon't really care. They just
want their house to not falldown and cost is less of a
consideration. Mm-hmm . But, you know,
you start to get into the halfmillion dollar mid-range house

(10:24):
and 60 70 grand for micro pilesbecomes a massive issue. Mm-hmm
. So

Speaker 2 (10:33):
As a realtor, sometimes when we are working
with a buyer that's looking atlots, sometimes we'll go into a
subdivision and the developerwill say, we have soil reports
for the entire subdivision, butnot lots specific. And many
times they're indicating thatthe soils are good. We don't
need micro piles , there's nomovement and things like that.

(10:54):
But how important is it forpeople to have a site specific
, um, report in that kind ofsituation?

Speaker 4 (11:01):
Well, it really depends on where, where it is.
Uh, there are certainly someareas kind of in the lower
valley that the soils arepretty uniform. Um, and the
subdivision soils report , youknow, we've done a bunch of
test holes and the soils arepretty consistent. Mm-hmm
. It's not reallynecessary to do anything site
specific. Uh, the same appliesto the northern parts of town.

(11:24):
When we start to get into theManka shale, the shale is 2000
feet thick, so it's pretty muchall the same. Uh , but
particular areas, you know,Redlands, Mesa, spy Glass , um,
where there can be somesignificant variation depending
on where exactly you'rebuilding in those particular
subdivisions , uh, it's veryimportant to do site specific.

(11:46):
Mm-hmm . I mean,from a business standpoint, it
would be great. I'd love tohave everybody do site
specifics on every lot. But ,uh, there are certainly some
areas where it's not necessarymm-hmm .

Speaker 2 (11:57):
From a builder's perspective. Dave , um, do, do
you have that same attitudelike we can build anywhere? Are
there certain places where yousay I'd prefer not to build?

Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah, you know, that's a great question. I
would, we're not afraid tobuild anywhere in Grand
Junction. Um, the caveat beingthere is really the client's
end all budget. Mm-hmm . You know, it
really depends on what the enduser gets at the end. And if
you're spending almost ahundred grand on micro pile
foundation work, that takes upa lot of what you're looking

(12:29):
for for your interior finishedtype of selections. Um, from
the builder perspective, I justwanted to kind of jump back to
what Mike was saying. I prefermuch more , uh, that we do c
site specific , um, soilsexamples there mm-hmm
. Or samples. Um, the reason for that is mainly
my structural engineers,especially on soils for , um,

(12:52):
if we're in A-A-F-T-A zone andwe have to , um, consider
septic systems mm-hmm . That's very
important for Yeah . Septicengineers to really figure out
what that looks like. So wehave a very clear understanding
of what parameters we have tostay in and, and what that cost
looks like. So I pretty muchmake it a standard that we're

(13:14):
gonna do a lot specific soilreport each time. Good.

Speaker 4 (13:18):
Good. Well, that's a good point. The septics , uh,
are a big deal. The regulationsare ever changing, it seems
like, seems like it's everyother day it's not, but that's
kind of what it feels like whenwe are doing design work. Um,
but yeah, there's a lot ofvariation and a lot of things
that we have to account for inthe septic and the same sort of
cost , uh, increases can occur.

(13:41):
I mean, it's not quite asdramatic as going from a spread
footing to micro piles , butgoing from a conventional
gravity fed septic to apressurized septic because of
shallow groundwater or shallowbedrock , um, again, can
double.

Speaker 3 (13:56):
Yeah . You

Speaker 4 (13:56):
Can plus

Speaker 3 (13:57):
The cost add five six grand pretty easy . Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah . Can you talk to us, Mike, about the
different types of soilchallenges that we have here in
the valley? Um , I mean, I'msure you could go really deep
and technical on this, butlike, what does the average
consumer need to know and needto watch out for with the help
of their realtor?

Speaker 4 (14:17):
So , um, the real, I mean, to really narrow it down
to the two primary , uh,problems, and that's
collapsible soils and expansivesoils or bedrock collapsible
soils. The best analogy forthem is a house of cards type
of structure. Uh , although youcan't really tell from looking
at 'em, but they have a lot ofopen void space, and a , if you

(14:39):
introduce excess water , um, orexcessive load, you can get
settlements that are wellbeyond what you would expect
for a normal structure. Um,they are not quite as , uh,
dramatic as expansive soils.
Um, and the collapsible soilsare kind of all of the, what I

(15:02):
will call sheet wash depositsand, and the things kind of the
north part of town, centralpart of the valley before you
get to the Manus shale , uh,expansive soils are a
completely different animal.
And the best way to describethem, and so that it makes
sense to people is to think ofa stack of cards. Uh , clay

(15:24):
particles are flat plates, andthey have a negative charge on
them. And , uh, water moleculeshave a , are polar. So they
have a slightly positive endand a slightly negative end.
And what happens with expansivesoils with the introduction of
water is the positive charge onthe water molecules attracted
it to the negative charge ofthe clay. And the water

(15:46):
molecule forces itself inbetween the plates. Think
horizontal plates think offorcing the cards apart. Mm-hmm
. And that'swhere swell comes from. Uh ,
the more expansive thematerial, the higher that
negative charge and the moreattraction it's going to have
to the water. So the mankashale , while it does have some

(16:08):
expansion potential, wenormally don't use micro piles
. It's usually not necessary.
Uh, the magnitude of expansionis lower than areas like
Spyglass and Redlands Mesa,where we have , uh, mite , uh,
clays. Um, in our lab, we have, uh, done testing on those

(16:31):
materials, and we've hadexpansion pressures of 32,000
pounds per square feet, whichis equivalent to 20 feet of
solid sandstone. Wow . So whatI'm saying is you could have 20
feet of sandstone rock , uh, ina six inch layer of Ben night ,
and if that bent night getswet, it could, it'll push it up
, heat , that whole thing. Wow.
And so that's why the , uh,early houses in Redlands Mesa

(16:55):
that were built before micropiles existed mm-hmm
. Had problemsmm-hmm . Because
they hit hard rock and calledit good, so to speak. So

Speaker 2 (17:04):
A , a lot of people in the valley are familiar with
bentonite. Um, if you've hikedmany areas in town after a
rainstorm and gotten it on yourshoes, you think, oh my God,
this is the worst stuff ever.
Um, is that the biggest culprit, uh, is the bentonite or the,
is there another , uh,substance that is

Speaker 4 (17:24):
No, yeah , it's definitely the Ben Bentonite it
, the Ben Knight is a monteroNight Clay. I mean, there's
different names for it, butyeah, it's the bentonite mm-hmm
. And so , uh,it's primarily in the Morrison
formation, which is all of thestuff that comprises , uh,
Spyglass Ridge and the ridgesin Redlands Mesa. And that
whole area, kind of south ofBroadway and some areas a

(17:48):
little bit north of Broadway isreally where that geologic unit
exists. And we have to concernourselves with those materials.
Now, the really importantfactor from a homeowner
standpoint , uh, people thatmight be listening to this
podcast is water management.
Um, that , you know, expansivematerials don't expand and

(18:11):
collapsible , collapsiblematerials don't collapse , uh,
in the absence of excess water.
And so,

Speaker 2 (18:16):
But so is average rainfall, can that be
considered excess water? Imean, do you need to mitigate
rainfall or just what you'reputting on the property?

Speaker 4 (18:25):
Um, rainfall on the roof, so we'll call , uh, roof
runoff is critical. I mean, youtake a 2,500 square foot house
and we get one of our two orthree tenths of an inch
rainstorms. You get a lot of wawater concentrated in the
downspouts. And the most commonproblem that I've seen over the
years is in these areas wherewe're building expensive homes

(18:50):
in these materials, thehomeowners don't want to see
the downspouts. So they're allburied and they either get a
separation of a joint orthere's a leak and nobody sees
it until it's far too late. Uh,all that water is concentrated
in the downspouts and getsright up against the foundation
and creates these problems. Um,and so I, again, I would say

(19:13):
80% of the projects I've beeninvolved in that where
expansion's been an issue, it'sbeen the downspouts. Um, that's
not to say that there aren'tsituations with , uh,
irrigation. You know, here inthe valley, irrigation water is
cheap. Yep . And so everybody,including myself over waters,

(19:34):
tend

Speaker 2 (19:35):
To over overuse. Yes .

Speaker 4 (19:36):
But , but , uh, you know, the key is , uh, keeping
bushes and things away from thehouse , um, and not watering
those with automatic systems.
Uh , we had a project where ,uh, years ago the house had, I
think nine inches of totalmovement. And it turns out it
was just a leak in , uh, one ofthe transmission pipes or the

(20:01):
side pipes. I think a threequarter inch pipe had a small
leak in it, not enough that itwould bubble up at the surface,
but it had leaked for three orfour years and the house moved

Speaker 2 (20:12):
Nine

Speaker 4 (20:12):
Inches , nine inches. That's,

Speaker 2 (20:14):
That's a bit, yeah.
Dave, talk about the differentways that you address , um,
soil challenges and , um, weused to use a term , uh, pylons
and , uh, is, that's not atechnique that's used anymore,
or was that ever a techniquethat was used for swelling or
collapsible soils?

Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah, I'm sure it was. I personally don't have
much experience on the pylonside. Um , and it ,
geographically, it kind ofdepends on where you're at
without the United States, wesee a lot of stuff on the East
coast done quite a bitdifferently than out here in
Western Colorado. Um , most ofthe time, again, in my
experience, it's been micropile type of foundation work.

(20:54):
Um,

Speaker 2 (20:55):
Can you describe what a micro pile is and how it
functions?

Speaker 3 (20:58):
Sure. So based off of the soils report and the ,
uh, structural design of the ,uh, foundation, then we have
load calculations. Again, thisis, this is his area,
Load Cal , uh, structurals. Butonce we know what those load
calculations look like, then wecan basically take a foundation
plan and figure out how manymicro piles is this specific

(21:21):
site gonna require , um, tohave the most stable
foundation. And so to give youan example , um, Redlands Mesa,
we've done, you know, quite afew homes up there. I've got
one coming pretty soon, Ibelieve. You know, we've got
over a hundred micro piles onit. So it's, it's gonna be,
it's a big expense. Again, wehave to consider. Now, I would

(21:43):
say, well, let's go into themicro piles themselves. So we,
once it's designed by anengineer, then we go back onto
the job site. Excavationhappens first. Um, and a lot of
times in spy glass or , uh,Redlands may say this comes in
stages. So some excavation hasto take place first, we come in

(22:06):
with the drill , um, and thenthe , the drill crew will drill
out our pilings to thosespecified depths of the
engineered plan. Um , a lot oftimes I think the average is
probably 30 to 35 feet, mostcommonly.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
So you're getting through that top layer of , um,
tricky soil and getting downinto the manco shale or some
other layer . Well,

Speaker 4 (22:29):
What you're trying to do really is get the bottom
of the pile , uh, at a depththat is passed where we expect
water can penetrate, is really,and so the micro pile , if you
do get swelling, the intent isthat the micro pile will
essentially hold the structuredown.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
Okay .

Speaker 3 (22:49):
Based off of friction. Yeah . Okay . We call
it skin friction, right?
Correct . Skin friction. Sowhen we drill the micro pile
out, it's a small diameter, youdrill in the casing, and then
we insert a threaded rod. Inmost cases, I believe most
commonly it's about inch andthree quarter . So it's pr
relatively small. Um, thethreaded rod is then inserted

(23:11):
into the casing at depth. Andthen we, as we're pulling out
the casing, you're filling thehole with grout. So the grout
helps with the skin frictionagainst the rod and the earth
movement. So the whole pointwould be to, let's say we have
, um, collapsible or expansivesoils to a depth of 20 feet.
You know, most commonly we'regonna see a , a drilled , um,

(23:35):
piling down to 30, 35 to meetthe soil that's gonna resist
the water. Obviously, we wantto get away from it completely
as much as possible. Mm-hmm . Groundwater can
be an, an issue. So that's kindof the overall goal intent.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
So is it correct, sometimes people have talked
about like floatingfoundations. Would you say that
that's what the micro pilesprovide?

Speaker 3 (24:00):
I would say in a sense , um, kind of because
they're adjustable mm-hmm . But I wouldn't,
it's not like a floating floorsystem. Right. It doesn't just
continually expand and contract. Um, there is some movement
there that you , over a coupleyears, you may make some
adjustments in the foundationon the micro piles themselves.
But I, I , I personally, Istruggle with calling it a

(24:23):
floating foundation system.
Yeah . But I have heard itcalled that quite a bit.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
One of the things that we deal with as realtors a
lot is people have heard thatthere's some soil issues in the
valley, and they'll go into anew , a home, whether it be new
or old, and see a crack on awall and think, no , I'm out.
Yeah. Um, all houses settle. Isthat true? Yes. Mm-hmm
. And, and howwould you , uh, advise a

(24:51):
homeowner to look at a crack ina wall? Like what is concerning
and what is not?

Speaker 3 (24:56):
Well , that's a good question. If it's a simple
crack in the sheet rock , youknow, there's, there's multiple
things that it could be. Um,obviously the biggest issue
that you're gonna want toconsider looking into is the
foundation. Um, there's beenhomes built over, you know, the
fifties, sixties and seventies.
Some in the nineties, early twothousands, where this wasn't a
big thing and it wasn't done.

(25:17):
Um, so if you find a , a crack, uh, in your sheet rock , you
know, I'd be, if it's on acrawlspace, I'd be going to the
crawlspace just to check somethings out. Mm-hmm
. Make sure it'snot a bigger problem than what
it really could be. So mm-hmm.

Speaker 4 (25:31):
The one thing I'd point out is that , uh, there's
a big di the big differencebetween settlement and
expansion is settlements offinite process. Uh, the soils
can only compress so much. Andso while most structures will
settle a little bit over time ,uh, usually it will stop once
it's reached equilibrium withthe weight of the structure.

(25:55):
Swelling. On the other hand,particularly with the
bentonite, their , uh, affinityfor water is such that they can
consume mass quantities ofwater. And so as long as there
is introduction of water, theswelling, it's not infinite,
but it can go on for years,decades , uh, whereas

(26:18):
settlement stops , um,

Speaker 2 (26:22):
Interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (26:23):
Yeah. When you talk about homeowners looking at a
house , um, older structures,and that's what I often tell
people. It's if , if it's anolder structure and there's
some cracking, it's probablyfrom movement that happened
long ago. Um, maybe not inRedlands Mesa, but most places

(26:43):
here in the valley, lowerValley, if we've got cracks,
it's probably from somethingthat happened decades ago , uh,
just was never fixed. Um, ofcourse we also have in this
area extremes, you know , itwas two below at my house the
other day mm-hmm . And then we get a hundred
degrees in the summer. And ,uh, the expansion and

(27:04):
contraction of the buildingmaterials just from the
variation in temperature, thewide swings can cause cracking.
Mm-hmm . And it ,but it is hard to, particularly
from your standpoint, try toconvince somebody that it's not
a big deal when people hearhorror stories of,

Speaker 2 (27:20):
Right . Well, and we're not foundation experts,
you know, we, we see certainthings that concern us. You
know, when you're looking at ,uh, doors and windows that
don't close, you know, you cansometimes go in a house and,
and feel that things are offkilter or, you know, there's
some , um, window and doorframes or, or cracks that
aren't uniform or straight. Youknow, you can see when there's

(27:44):
a , a crack on a, on a sheetrock seam, you think, well , no
big deal. But, you know, comingoff the corner of a door or
something. So we alwaysrecommend a engineer take a
look. Um, we , we want peopleto have all the information
they need to make an informeddecision, but I think some
people really get scared aboutsome things that maybe are

(28:06):
fixable or not a non-issue.

Speaker 3 (28:09):
Yeah. I think a lot of the, the scared feelings of
these types of foundationissues that we, we come across
are really, it boils down tonot knowing anything about it.
Mm-hmm . Youknow, you , you hear ho horror
story from somebody that boughta house in Redlands Mason, you
know, maybe they told theirfriend who's looking to build a
home. So I, I think it'sextremely important. I take a

(28:29):
lot of time with each of myclients to really boil down
what it looks like and makesure they understand what this
could potentially mm-hmm . Do to a project
budget. Again, that comes backdown to cost . Yeah . It's a
big expense. So, yeah .

Speaker 4 (28:43):
But the, the micro piles , uh, the introduction of
micro piles was really a gamechanger . Um , you refer to
pilings , um, drilled piers iswhat we'd call them. And
they're not that much differentthan micro piles other than
their larger diameter, but thedrilling equipment's different.
And so in the seventies,eighties, nineties, even early

(29:04):
two thousands in these areas,they would start to drill a
hole. And when they hit hardrock, they would stop because
they couldn't advance into thebedrock. And so they oftentimes
were not getting these piers ,uh, to a depth that was below
the moisture change. Um, agreat example is , uh, I don't
know if you knew Dutch Aman ,his house was kind of the

(29:26):
poster child

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Oh , yes . On the corner up there

Speaker 4 (29:29):
On the corner across from the , from the golf club
mm-hmm . Yep .
Um, his house was on drilledpiers, and they just weren't
deep enough. And so everythingmoved, and I think we did
several floor level surveys ,uh, as expert witness for him
and his lawsuit. But , uh, Ithink we had 14 inches of
movement in some areas of thehouse. I mean, it was Wow.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
Significant,

Speaker 4 (29:51):
Significant, mm-hmm . Um, fast
forward to 2008 when micropiles became available. At the
time, maze was the only folksdoing it. Um, and we did the
house immediately next door,which covers two lots, giant,
expansive house. And I've neverhad a call from the owner

(30:13):
saying that it's ever moved.
Mm-hmm . Um ,micro piles are about as
bulletproof a foundation as wehave. Uh, there have been
houses that have moved a littlebit, and generally what happens
in those cases is the , uh,soil in between the micro pile
starts to push up against thefoundation wall, which causes

(30:34):
flexor of the concrete. If youcan believe that it can flex
more than you would think. Um,but if you go in and
reestablish that void spaceunderneath the , the concrete,
the , it goes back to where itwas. I mean, the micro piles
are really, like I said,they're as close from an
engineering standpoint.

(30:55):
There're as close to a hundredpercent success rate as
anything we've ever had. It's agood insurance to have. Yeah .

Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah . Well, I was gonna ask a little bit about
repairs, because obviouslyneither one of you own a
foundation repair company, andthat may be something that you
don't wanna address so much,but , uh, for people that have
experience movement in theirhouse, that, that have cracking
or, you know, unevenness , um,there are, there are ways to
fix those problems.

Speaker 4 (31:22):
There are , uh, the problem is they're very
expensive. Um, so let's sayyou've got $60,000 to put micro
piles under a new house just tothrow out a number , uh, to,
for that same house, to try toput micro piles in five years
later after the fact, you'reprobably double, at least
double that cost. Um, what Irecommend to most of my clients

(31:46):
is if they think they're havingmovement, and we can
demonstrate we do , uh, floorlevel surveys and we can
demonstrate that yes, there hasbeen some movement and it's
actively occurring , uh, findthe source of the water , um,
stop the water. And then inmost cases, you do that and the

(32:07):
structure will reach anequilibrium point to where it's
not moving anymore. And thenyou can decide whether you can
live with that , um, or youreally wanna try to repair it
mm-hmm . But inmost cases , uh, folks will go
in and they'll reset the doorjambs and they'll do those
things that , uh, you know,cost 'em 10, $20,000 and just

(32:28):
move on with their lives. Um,

Speaker 2 (32:30):
So, so the , the movement is always water
related . Always, always.

Speaker 4 (32:36):
I , I hate to say it always as an engineer, we never
say always . .
Yeah . My lawyer tells me neverto say always . Um, the
vast majority of the time,particularly here in the
valley, it is water related .
Now, I'm sure there are cases,I haven't run into any, but I'm
sure there are cases wheresomebody did a bad design and ,

(32:59):
uh, overloaded the soils. Theyused too large of a bearing
capacity, and so thefoundations weren't , uh,
spreading the load enough. Uh,and they got excess movements.
So there can be movements fromfailures either with
engineering or construction,but the vast majority, I'd say
95 plus percent of movementsthat we see here in the valley

(33:23):
are because water coming fromsomewhere. Yeah. Water got into
the system.

Speaker 3 (33:29):
Water management is a really heavy conversation
that we have with every client.
There's so many things that wecan do to try to mitigate what
that could look like. If we, Imean, again, it's good
insurance, right? If we havecertain areas of the valley
too, where we maybe don't haveto have a micro pile
foundation, you know, Mike willsay, over excavate X amount of

(33:49):
feet, import some structuralfill , we'll get it to
compaction, make that proctor.
Um, the bigger portion of thatquestion is, once I backfill,
I'm gonna , I'm gonna install afoundation drain all the way
around the house. Um, we've hada couple other projects where a
larger lot, excuse me, we werecon concerned with overall
drainage towards the house. Andso we've, we've cut swales in

(34:13):
to really redirect the waterall the way around the lot. And
, um, I'm doing a house rightnow actually where it , it's
kind of a tricky lot to getinto, and it's quite a ways
from the street, you know,probably 60, 70 feet. So that
doesn't leave me a whole lot ofroom for concrete work. We
ended up building concreteretaining walls and foundation

(34:36):
drain around the entire lot totry to manage the water
correctly. And it sounded likethat was a, a tricky situation
with the previous owner of thisland who, who wanted to build
out there. So again, certainthings that , you know, it's,
would you prefer to spend ahundred grand or however many
thousands of dollars on micropiles , or can we come up with

(34:58):
a different solution? Mm-hmm. Cost analysis is
a big deal for it. So would

Speaker 2 (35:02):
You agree that even if you've got what we would
call good soils and , um, and alot of irrigation water always
best to keep the water awayfrom the house? A hundred
percent. Right? Like a lot ofpeople would like to have
beautiful landscaping right upto the edge of the house. Yeah
. But , um, the smart move isto just keep it away and keep
the water directed Yeah . Awayfrom the foundation.

Speaker 3 (35:23):
Absolutely. And we see a lot of people who we're
building now take sewing Eagle,for instance. Um, we're looking
more for a lock and leave kindof turnkey scenario out there.
Most people don't want a wholelot of maintain , uh,
maintenance requirements. Andso we're starting to get away
from, back in the day we putshrubbery and trees right
against the house, and noweverybody's more zero scape or

(35:45):
closely around. And you have alittle more room to wiggle with
that. So certainly the mostimportant thing

Speaker 2 (35:52):
You, you mentioned a little bit earlier about , uh,
water table. How does that playinto house building and, and
designing of foundations and ,

Speaker 4 (36:03):
Uh, well, there's several issues. Um, I mentioned
before the septic, that'salways a problem if we're on a
lot that has septic. Uh , therequirements are, the
regulations require that thebottom of the leach field be
four feet above the water. Andunfortunately, we're bound by
that. It's a state regulationand , uh, it's essentially a
groundwater drinkingregulation. Um, there are still

(36:26):
people in the front range thathave shallow wells and actually
drink from them. I wouldcaution anybody against
drinking the shallow water herein the Grand Valley. Uh, I
think you , uh, will have majorissues. Um, but the other
problem , uh, or one of theother problems is water in the
crawl space . Um, depending onseasonal variations. And I have

(36:49):
seen not many areas here in thevalley, but there are some
areas where you'll get four tosix feet of groundwater
elevation change between theirrigation season and the wow
non irrigation season. Um, andso again, we can use perimeter
foundation drain , we can use adifferent type of foundation.
Uh, oftentimes those are areaswhere we'll use a slab

(37:11):
foundation , uh, just so wedon't have to worry about
watering the crawl space . Um,but from a constructability and
cost standpoint, from the , uh,construction side of things,
when we have shallowgroundwater, we often also have
really soft soils. Um, and sothe builder then has to come in

(37:32):
and they have to put in a bunchof geogrid and pit run and ,
uh, the cost can escalate outtacontrol very quickly. Um , just
to, just to make the groundfirm enough to pour the
foundation on. Um, we don't seeit as much in residential, but
here, commercial, all the, justabout everything here in the,
the downtown area in lowerValley , uh, we have those soft

(37:56):
soil problems that we deal withduring construction.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
Some of the older houses downtown getting water
in the basement have some pumpsand things like that. Yeah.
That's because of thegroundwater

Speaker 4 (38:06):
And the groundwater's come up. Mm-hmm
. Uh , over, youknow, some of those houses are
what World War ii, post-WorldWar II age. And , um, most of
the groundwater here in thevalley, with the exception of
down by the river, is due tothe hundred some years of
irrigation. Uh , the north partof town was probably had to go

(38:27):
a hundred feet to find water ahundred years ago, Uhhuh,
. Um, and so allthat irrigation water flows
toward the river. And overtime, over the last 50, 60
years, the water's come upeverywhere , uh, several feet.
And so yeah, you have some ofthose older houses that never
had a problem for 50 years, andnow all of a sudden they're

(38:47):
getting water in theirbasement. And , uh, it can be,
it can be a significant issueto deal with.

Speaker 2 (38:55):
Um, you mentioned Soaring Eagle Day , um, great
subdivision out there in theRedlands. Uh, what are the
soils like out there?

Speaker 3 (39:02):
Soils out there have been great. We've been able to
use the majority , um, we wouldover excavate X amount per the
engineer recommendation. Mostoften it's about two feet over
excavation. We then processthat, that fill and we use it
as instead of having additionalcost and structural imported
fill, we can use the native ,um, as so long as we get to the

(39:24):
95% proctor , um, compactionrating. So, I mean, while that
is a little more costly interms of overall labor to get
the work done, depending on thesize of the home, obviously
certainly cheaper than havingto import structural fill. We
do do that sometimes. Um, justas again, as safety, just it's

(39:44):
easy insurance. If a clientdoesn't mind paying for that,
it , they have peace of mindwith it. I'm not gonna tell 'em
no . Right. Uh , we're actuallygetting ready to do one out
there in, in that exact samescenario, so we don't have to,
but we're going to.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
And when I think about the Redlands and the, the
water that comes off the rocksand the alluvial planes, are
there , um, I mean obviouslysome , in some areas you can
see the Bent Knight in someareas of the Redlands and it's
very obvious. But are thereother , um, uh, visual
indicators of where you mightfind challenging soils?

Speaker 4 (40:20):
Um, not usually. Uh, quite frankly, most of it , uh,
most of my knowledge is justhaving poked so many holes and
pits over the years. Uh , wehave drilled lots in Redlands
Mesa where we've done ourborings and we haven't hit a
lick at bent night , but I'mstill gonna put it on micro
piles . 'cause the bent nightis not generally a continuous

(40:43):
layer. Um, like the Manka Shaleis just shale upon shale upon
shale, but , uh, the Morrisonformation, you can have little
pockets of Ben Night . And sojust knowing that it's there,
even though we don't see itoftentimes mm-hmm
.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
Yeah. You know, where the pockets are.
. Yeah . Yeah .

Speaker 4 (41:02):
I I'm sure they're there. Uh, and again, you know,
you're talking about a milliondollar house plus up there, and
, um, it just doesn't makesense to not do micro piles .
And maybe you find a lot, andmaybe there isn't any event
night , but that's a big,that's a big role of the ice .
That's a

Speaker 2 (41:20):
Big risk. Mm-hmm .

Speaker 4 (41:21):
Given all the things that have happened up there
over the years. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yeah. Well, this is a fascinating conversation, and
I've learned a lot. I mean,I've been selling real estate
in the Valley for over 23,about 23 years, and , uh, come
across a lot of differentconditions. Um, but it, it's,
we always direct people to theprofessionals, the
builders and the engineers.
Like we, we know a few thingsto look for, but we don't wanna

(41:47):
hold ourselves out there to, toknow these kind of things. So
it's, it's great to have thisinformation and I hope that ,
uh, I know that my agents willrefer to this video, but also ,
um, hopefully the public canlook and gain some information
from it and, and help them withtheir home building and, and
repair choices in the future.
So.

Speaker 4 (42:07):
Well, and I would say that , uh, if somebody's
looking to buy a home here inthe valley and their realtor
and or builder, or they'regonna build a house doesn't
suggest that they, you know,talk to an engineer or doesn't
provide them with someinformation, that's a big red
flag. Yeah. Um,

Speaker 2 (42:29):
No matter where in

Speaker 4 (42:31):
The valley, no matter . Yeah . No matter where
in the valley. Yeah . I mean, Ithink it's really important
that people be aware, you know,you don't wanna scare people
off, but , um, most of theserisks can be managed. We've,
we've been doing it for a longtime. Um, and it's important
that they know the , themagnitude of the risk. You
know, are we talking about asubstantial problem or maybe

(42:52):
not, not so much. Mm-hmm . And the
builders and realtors reallyneed to be providing that
information to the buyers.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
Absolutely. That's part of the due diligence that
you need to be , uh, takingcare of on your own. You know ,
we, again, we haveconversations with a lot of
different folks. Some, Ihaven't even gotten the
opportunity to bill for it yet,just simply because we haven't
found the right opportunity ona lot, you know, and if, if I
don't have the right guy to dothe job and figure out, you

(43:21):
know, on timing and where it'sat, then we'll get the right
person to do it. But it's, it'sextremely important to consider
that, especially when mostpeople are on a , a fixed
budget for the certainparameters they're on for a
project. Mm-hmm .
Yeah . Awesome.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
Well, thank you so much for your time today and
this is great information. MikeBerry with Huddleston Berry
Engineering, Dave Hancock withPorter Homes . Um, reach out to
these guys if you havequestions about building a
home, about engineering , uh,about soils, their wealth of
information. And I appreciateyou both very much.

Speaker 3 (43:54):
Thank you so much for having us. Thank

Speaker 4 (43:55):
You for having us.
Yeah , it's been a lot of fun.
Good.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Thank you. Alright everybody, we'll see you next
time on the Full CirclePodcast. Have a great day . Bye
. Thanks for listening. This isKristy Reese signing out from
the Full Circle Podcast .