From Pulpit to Platform: Alexander Lang’s Journey

Episode Transcript
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>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source
for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether

(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you
with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
Today, Martha Tatarnic again welcomes Alexander Lang

(00:50):
to the show. Martha had a great episode with him
back in season 14. We'll put a link in the show.
Notes Alex is a former PCUSA
pastor who worked in church ministry for 20
years. He has since left the
church to pursue a technology business that is
designed to help people form meaningful relationships.

(01:10):
Alex's interests include independent film,
electronic music, and deep conversation with people
who question, doubt and want to
dig into the most complex issues we face as
humans. When he's not working on
books, podcasts, or the restorative faith
movement, Alex enjoys spending time with his wife

(01:30):
and two sons. One more thing.
Please take a moment to leave a review on whatever podcast
app you're listening on and share this episode with a
friend. Thanks and enjoy the
episode.

>> Martha Tatarnic (01:49):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am
the co host of this podcast, Martha
Tatarnic. Today I am having a conversation
with someone who is becoming quite well known to our
future Christian community, Alexander
Lang. Alex, you're becoming a bit
of a fixture on this podcast and I'm so
grateful for that being the case because it is always

(02:12):
such a, uh, delight
and a uh, time full of insight when I get
to be able to talk with you.

>> Alexander Lang (02:20):
Oh, thank you. Wow, that's really
kind as an introduction. No, I'm really happy to
be here. It's been really nice to be able to
uh, consistently come back and talk to you all,
uh, and to be part of your, to be able to speak to your
audience.

Yeah, for sure. Now, just a, ah, refresher to
our listeners or to give some context to
new people tuning in. Um,
Alex, we've had a few really interesting
conversations on past Future Christian
episodes. The first time we talked was about a
year ago I think, and it was after
your choice to leave parish

(02:57):
ministry, an article that you had
written about your reasons for leaving parish ministry
going viral. And uh,
I felt quite privileged to be able
to talk with you in the midst of
all of the many media requests that you
were fielding at that time. Um, then

(03:18):
we talked earlier this year about your new
book, Restorative spirituality for the
21st century rationalist.
So why don't you catch us up
on what is going on for you right now. I know that you
do have a few creative irons in the
fire, so can you just, uh, tell

(03:38):
our listeners what's getting you out of bed in the morning these
days or keeping you up at night?

Sure. No, no, no. Yeah. The last time we spoke, as you
said, I had just published Restorative, uh,
Beauty. And as you can appreciate, because
you're working on a book right now, uh, it feels good to
have it behind you. So when you're in the middle of it, it's just so much
time and effort goes into that. And so to be
freed of that, uh, was just

(04:04):
a wonderful thing. I was able to kind of turn my attention back to
my podcast, which is the Restorative Faith Podcast, which
is a little bit different from. From the way that you
all run yours, which is basically conversations,
uh, one on one for the most part. And with
mine, it's more of a highly edited kind of thing. The
best analogy is actually Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist history

(04:25):
is kind of the way that I modeled it after, like, an
episode. Takes me about 50 hours to put it together.

Oh, my God.

Uh, uh, where. Yeah, because I'm like, I have a whole team.
I have, like, a team of reporters who work with me, and so they go out and
they find these interviews. And so to
actually get it together and to have a
full, full episode, it takes quite a lot of time. So I dropped
my whole season all at once. But we've been working for two years on
season four, which deals with the conflict between,

(04:50):
uh, science and religion and, uh, science
and Christianity in particular. Yeah, it's a big one.
My podcast focuses on why people are leaving the church,
and science and religion are a huge one. So I've been
waiting a couple of years to be able to do this, and I have some
amazing guests, uh, for the season, so
I've been working on that. But then, of course, the other
thing that I've been working on for the last several

(05:13):
months is a, uh, YouTube series called
Quoro.

Yes. And that is what we're specifically
going to be talking about today. But I
just can't help to weigh in a
little bit about your podcast and, uh, to say
I'm very excited to hear that
season. Coming, uh, to the,
to the podcast universe, there. There probably
is, like, some analysis that you could do about

(05:39):
various personality types and what sort
of podcasts we gravitate toward putting
together. Because I do think that there are elements of
your personality that I have seen emerge across
our conversations that
suggest that you like to, you know,
have, um, some,
some control over the details of

(06:01):
how, of how
an episode comes together.

Yeah, well, uh, my wife always says that
if I can make it harder, I will. And so, I
mean, I hope that when people listen to it, they feel the love and care
that went into it, because that's
super important to me. And
I want to say I really appreciate
podcasts like these, where, like, it's a whole

(06:26):
different kind of thing to find people to have them
on and to have these conversations like you all do. Those are so important
because the consistency of those conversations, they matter,
you know, whereas not everybody can wait two years
to put out a couple of episodes like I'm doing.
So I think that this is just as important, equally as important
to what I do.

Yeah, I mean, I think both are valuable. It's
just sort of interesting, uh, the different
approaches and the different benefits of
each approach. I think, um, is pretty
cool. So, yeah, that's, uh, that's going to be a lot
of fun to be able to check that out as well.
So let's talk about Kokoro, though.

(07:05):
Um, when you were first sharing
this idea with me, you said
that it was very much influenced
by the work of Mr. Rogers
neighborhood and, uh, that you grew up with
that being a, a big influence in
your life. I grew up in Canada and,
uh, Mr. Dress up was sort of more of the show

(07:28):
that I watched growing up. So I don't, I actually,
like, don't know that I ever watched a
Mr. Rogers episode when I was a kid.
Why don't you share with, um, with
our listeners what it was that struck
you as a child about that show?

Yeah, it's a. Ah, it's. You'll have to tell me about Mr. Dress up
sometime. I don't, I don't know what that is.

That's a Canadian.

Like many children in the United States who grew up on
public broadcasting television at, uh, PBS,
we, you know, you had access to
Mr. Rogers neighborhood, which was part of their programming,
uh, in the morning hours. And particularly if you only had a
couple of channels like we did, you know, we, we literally had an antenna.
When I was growing up in the 80s, we, uh, didn't have cables, so that

(08:14):
was, that was one of the things you had access to.
And so I watched this program every
single day, probably from the time I was
probably two, uh, till I was about five or
six. And, uh, if you
don't know much about Mr. Rogers, what's fascinating
about him is that he. He was one of

(08:35):
the first people ever to speak to
kids in a way that they could really
understand. But he didn't pander to children. I think
that's really important to say because he would talk
about issues that really impacted their lives. I mean, he talked about
conflict and sadness and anger,
divorce, death, violence. I mean, even war. I mean, he
talked about big, heavy things that were going

(08:56):
on. And I think it's something that's important to
point out about Fred Rogers, which I love, is that he was a
Presbyterian pastor. So he
attended, uh, Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
and was ordained as a minister in
1963 to
serve people through television programming.
Ultimately, he chose to serve children specifically.

(09:19):
Uh, and what I love about Mr. Rogers, if you. If you really
dig down into it, he never explicitly discussed theology on
the show, ever. Right. But underneath every
one of his shows was a beautiful
theology of love and
acceptance. And so back in
February, I was perusing YouTube,
as we do, and I came across an

(09:41):
old episode of his show. I hadn't watched it in quite some
time, and I got to the end of the show, and he said
he has his famous words. He would say every time, which
is, you've made this day a special day by just
your being you. There's no person in the
whole world like you, and I like you
just the way you are. So he would say that at the end

(10:02):
of every. Every program he did. And
I'm, um, not going to lie. There were tears in my eyes, like, hearing that
again, because, you know, as an adult,
I can't remember the last time someone said to
me, I like you just the way you are.

Wow.

And so then I got to thinking about it.
You know, wouldn't it be nice if there was
someone to remind us that we're enough like a Mr.
Rogers neighborhood for adults, where every
so often we could come together and be reminded
that no matter the difficulties we're facing in our lives,
we are loved and worthy just as we are.

(10:37):
And so, for me, I kind of thought about that, and I was like, you know,
personally, I think we need to hear that message
as much as we can now more than ever?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, do you feel
like you were
clocking as a kid that,
um, there was a faith dimension to
what he was saying? It's really
like, as an adult that you've been
able to kind of Revisit.

Yeah.

No.

Yeah. I had no clue at the time. And in
fact, I didn't even know about that until I was
at seminary that he. That that was part
of his. That that's who he was. And so it's
only in retrospect, looking back at it and kind of
seeing the show, I was like, oh, my gosh. And. And,
uh. And yeah, it had a huge impact on
me. In fact, at one point, I think this is a really

(11:30):
fascinating thing. When I was really digging into my
theology, what I truly believed. I went and I read about
Fred Rogers theology. And to be honest,
they. They mirror each other. So even though he
never once used the word Jesus, he never once used the word
God, his theology, for the.
By and large became my theology.
Which is. Which shows you how effective it was.

(11:53):
Yeah.

That's amazing. That is amazing.
Like, to be able to. To line that
up so clearly. Wow.
Um, so, I mean, we're
always, as faith leaders, we're always
just trying to noodle
our way through how we communicate

(12:15):
faith in a world that
sometimes seems a little apathetic or even
resistant or, um,
combative toward faith.

Um.

Um. What? Like,
do you think that there is, uh, a
message for Christian leaders in how
Fred Rogers went about doing this?

Absolutely. So, you know what's interesting
about Fred Rogers, I, uh, think this is. This is a fascinating
element of who he was, which is that
when he pursued television programming for children
as his ministry, the gatekeepers in the
Presbyterian Church didn't fully understand what he was
trying to do. Like, they kind of felt he was out there.

(12:59):
Like, they. They were like, uh, okay, I guess you can do this. But
they didn't. The. The only analogy they had at the time were
these charismatic preachers on television. So I think it was
really hard for them to envision exactly how his
television show was going to work. Or for that matter, how
would he be a ministry of any kind.

Right. Uh, right.

Today we can look back on that. Right? And we can say to ourselves, oh, my
gosh, there's such a genius behind what he was
doing. The problem is, is that he was thinking on a
completely different level than most pastors.

Right.

It's, uh, like for most pastors, their understanding of sharing their theology
and faith is centered in traditional methods. So, for example, you
know, the weekly sermon or teaching a class
or a mission trips or pastoral care. And I don't
think. Don't get me wrong, like, I don't want to, you know,
demean any of that. Those methods are tried and true and they still represent how
the vast majority of pastors approach their

(13:49):
ministry. Mhm. But I think with the
erosion of the traditional church,
these methodologies, from my perspective, are becoming
less effective simply because they
rely upon people being heavily invested in
their local church. That said, even for the people who
are invested, the format of the service

(14:09):
doesn't conform to the way we consume information these
days. So just like for example,
the weekly Sunday sermon, so our
attention spans have become so short.
The idea of listening to a person speak
at them for 15, 20,
30 minutes, however long it is, it just doesn't make sense

(14:30):
anymore. And so even if you're super charismatic
and a great communicator, it's just not
the way that most people consume information
any longer. So I think what Fred
Rogers demonstrates is that
non traditional methods of communicating theology and faith, they
can be super effective, but you

(14:50):
have to be willing to think outside the box. I mean,
he looked at the culture of his day and time and
he saw this burgeoning medium of
television and he realized there was this massive
gap. Nobody was really trying to meet. Children
where they, where they are, right? Mhm.

Mhm.

But perhaps more importantly, Fred Rogers
understood that,
you know, by impacting them
and imprinting them with these theological ideas at a
young age, you're laying a really critical
foundation of thought that can follow a child
for the rest of his or her life. And as we talked about, I'm, I'm
a great example of this, uh,

(15:30):
in my own life that he was able to do this.

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, when you
share those closing words from each of
his episodes, it does sound like a
very Christian message. It sounds
like a message that, you know, we
hope people walk away with from
our Sunday services. So, yeah, it's

(15:53):
quite brilliant and seems like very ahead of its
time. Let's just put a pin in. There's
a few things I want to follow up with about,
um, that
idea of adapting our message to
new media. Um, so I want to
circle back to that eventually. But I
want to talk about Kokoro specifically

(16:15):
because, um, it isn't just a
remake of Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. You're
not working for PBS and
you're, um, Vision isn't for
children. So,
uh, why don't you sketch out for
us, um, how you're structuring
Kokoro.

Yeah. So I wanted to create a show that
talks about important issues that we face
as adults. And
I think that's the driving force
is that there's always a
theme that drives every episode. So trust, uh,
anxiety, curiosity, Regret, doubt.

(16:56):
So it's, it's these, these themes that, that are
universal to every single person. Anybody can relate to them. So
that's really important where, where we start, right?
And then what I did was I broke
every show into four segments. So like Mr.
Rogers Neighborhood, I wanted the segments to be
predictable. So every episode follows
the same pattern.

Right.

Um, so the first segment always starts with
a story that establishes the theme. And
I always tell this story sitting in my green chair in my
living room. And this is similar to how Fred would begin his
program in his living room, uh, every show.
And so, so I tell this story that establishes the
theme. And then the second segment is usually an

(17:37):
interview that takes place in my kitchen.
So this is often where Mr. Rogers would,
uh, interview his guests. You know, he'd bring people in, he'd be, oh, somebody's at the
door and he'd open the door and he'd bring them in and come on in. And sometimes
he'd talk to him in his living room, other times he'd take him to the kitchen and have a
meal. So what I always do is I prepare
a meal or a snack or a dessert that

(17:58):
reflects the topic of the show, uh,
that we're talking about. So, um, I want to play a
short clip for you of one of these interviews and just to give
you the backstory on it. This particular episode is called
Wounds, and it's about the physical and
psychological injuries we incur as children and how
they manifest into adulthood.

Right.

And so, so I'm Speaking with, uh, Dr.
Kenyatta Fletcher, talking about how the
people she works with, how these wounds can manifest in
their lives. In the program that you work in, you know,
where you are right now with the patients who you see, how many of
those patients that you see have that
childhood trauma? So depending on
how we define trauma, at least

(18:39):
80% of our clients have
some form of trauma. Um, much of the
trauma does come from childhood and it
is physical, sexual, uh,
emotional abuse. You know, what are some ways that
you've seen psychological abuse play
out in some of your clients? So
psychological abuse, one of the hardest

(19:02):
things to deal with because it has long term
lasting effects. There's a certain level of stress that
is positive and then there's negative. So negative
stress is high, stressed environments all the time, whether it
stems from, you know, your economic status
or any of that, witnessing violence. Um, but
emotional and verbal abuse is one of those

(19:22):
things that's hard to let go because it impacts
your thinking about your, yourself, um, and how
you feel in Terms of, of life and what
others think about you, your self esteem. So after
finishing the interview, then I moved down to
my family room for the third segment, which is
I'm always sitting on the floor. And during the segment

(19:43):
we're always engaged in something tactile, like I'm
building something. Now Mr. Rogers, he would always have an object
lesson. And you know, running a church, when, uh, you're talking
to children, object lessons are really important, usually for the
children's sermon. But I always felt like having,
um, something that's physical to represent
what we're talking about becomes so important. And so I

(20:03):
decided to mirror this in my episode as a visual
representation. So the, um, basically the
title slides for my episodes are always that
object, whatever that object is that I'm working with.
Um, and they all have something different to do with whatever we're talking
about. Now, concurrent with me
constructing the object, I'm also teaching a
specific concept that's the linchpin of the

(20:26):
episode. So for example, the
episode on trust, while I'm talking about the concept of
trust, I'm building a structure out of Magna tiles.
And I don't know if you have ever played with Magna Tiles before.

No, I don't think so.

I never had them when I was a child, but they're new, so
my kids had them. And basically they're these tiles made of basic
shapes like squares and triangles, and they have
magnets inside of them that you can very easily
build with them. It's kind of neat what you can do with
them. Um, and so I play with my
sons with these, with these magnetiles all the time. And so the
idea though that I use them for, I pull them back out because my sons are

(21:02):
teenagers now. Uh, but I pulled them out and I thought the
idea was to represent how trust between two people is
like a structure that we build over time and how
that structure can be damaged or even
destroyed when trust is broken.

Right. And I mean that, that's
really great too. Just in terms of like
all that we understand now I think
about learning styles and about
the ways in which concepts are
reinforced psychologically in the human brain
is to have kind of those different elements
of, of uh, how you

(21:38):
get at a concept. Right. Like to have
that um, tactile piece, like
brilliant. It's really.

Yeah, yeah. Well, and the hope is, as you said, you know,
they're, they're not going to remember everything that I say,
but what they will remember that like in their brain. You're right,
they're going to link Together. Oh, there was this object,
and. Oh, yeah, this. He was building that building. And it was about
how trust can disintegrate. Now, they. That may be all they remember,
but that's okay because at least they remembered something.

(22:06):
And you're right, it's. It's having those kind of connections that
really. That really matter. And then from there, I moved
to the final segment, the fourth segment, which is in my dining room.
And so whatever I was working on in the previous segment, now that's
on display next to me while I talk
about strategies for addressing the issue. So this
is kind of like my practicality. And this is. This would be where I

(22:26):
diverge a bit from Mr. Rogers, because Mr.
Rogers, he would provide practical applications for
children. But, you know, children, by
nature of their disposition, you know, they
have very limited capacity to change their circumstances.
Like, they just. They just can't do it because they have so little
control over their environment. And so really,
the function of his show was just to make those children, for

(22:48):
the most part, feel seen. Like that was really what he was trying to do, which
was beautiful. Um, but as adults, we have more
volition, right? We have choices in our lives, and we also
have more baggage that can weigh us down. So we actually have things
that life experiences that have hurt us. And
so the goal at the end of each episode for me is really twofold.
One, I want to let the viewer know

(23:08):
that whatever baggage they're carrying with them, that's
understandable, that's part of life,
and you shouldn't feel judged for that. And
two, I want to provide inspiration and strategies
for improving your life. And so I want
to play a short clip where I'm discussing how
finding a deep sense of purpose is one of the
best ways to overcome our anxiety. And for just a

(23:31):
little bit of context around this clip, earlier in the episode, I
discussed Maslow's hierarchy of need. And I come back to
that in this section as a grounding point for
purpose in our lives. So from my
perspective, what I think we need to do
is we need to look at the top of Maslow's hierarchy of
need, self actualization. The idea

(23:51):
behind that is that you're reaching your full
potential as human
being. And in reaching that potential, what you're doing is
you're taking your gifts and you're using them for the
benefit of people all over the
world. I think one could argue that the greatest
purpose a person can have is when
they know that their presence is changing the

(24:14):
world for the better. And I think the place where we can
do this best is with the people in
our lives, our friends and our family. Because
when you invest those gifts that you have, and we all
have very special gifts that we can use, when
you use those to improve the lives of the
people around you, expecting nothing in return, what

(24:34):
often happens is you are shown a great deal of
love and appreciation. And that's so much better than
any amount of money you could
receive.

So I'm interested,
like, I think that um, what I'm
hearing across these clips and
across your
uh, descriptions and the segments and so
on is um,
very much like applicability
to the things

(25:07):
that like, as adults we
struggle with, um, that like
very sort of universal
experiences of you get to
adulthood and you've got wounds
and you've got trauma and you're looking
for healing and you're looking for purpose.

(25:28):
So like,
are there
specific Christian
theological principles that you're,
that you're building into this
as well without using Christian
language? Do you feel like there are more
general faith principles that you're,

(25:51):
that you're drawing on?
What, what's kind of the theological
underpinning that, that you're working
with?

Yeah, so my thinking has been
shaped and formed by theology. So that's,
I can't really divorce those two things any
longer just because of, as, you know, as a
pastor, this is just something that it becomes part of your
thinking. Uh, so even if I wanted to, I couldn't do that.
But as you heard in that clip, you know, there's a lot
of theology bound up in that clip. Yeah, right.

(26:22):
Um, I'm articulating a very
particular approach to finding
purpose that is of course resonant with Jesus's
teachings. So if somebody watches that episode
and they follow my advice, they will be living
a faith based life whether they are Christian or not.

Right, right.

But also like Fred. Right. Even
though there's a lot of theology undergirding my approach,
you're never going to hear me talk about God or Jesus in
any of these episodes. And uh, and I think
that's kind of like to me, the beauty
of kind of what comes out of this is for somebody
to have an encounter perhaps with

(27:02):
the divine or with these teaching
principles that can shape their life where they don't
necessarily even realize, oh, this is explicitly Christian.
In fact, if you told them that, they might turn away from it
because they would say, oh, I don't want anything to do with that. But when
you package it differently, that provides it in a way that
people say, oh, well, that feels like Something I should, I should

(27:22):
try. That feels like something I should apply to my
life.

Yeah. And I mean, just like, correct me
if I'm wrong here, but what I really
hear you saying is
that like the offering that you
are putting together here is
very much based on Christianity as
an action based faith

(27:46):
rather than a doctrinal faith. So
like, I don't hear you saying that
you're, you know, trying to explain the mystery
of the Trinity in a way that like,
will sort of get into people's
consciousness without them realizing it. Like, that's not
the takeaway. Like, the takeaway is very much
like these are the, the things that

(28:08):
you can actually do to lead
a more holistic,
healed, healthy,
um, fruitful life. Does that,
just that.

Absolutely. Well, yeah. And you know, for
me, I've always
approached Christianity and Jesus teachings as a
blueprint for life. It's one of many types of blueprints that a
person can utilize. Personally,
I feel that it's a, uh,
beautiful blueprint for life and it's a very fulfilling,
probably in my opinion, one of the most

(28:41):
meaningful ways that you can live. Now
other people might disagree with me. We, you know, that might
look at that and say, no, that's not the case. But I think
that if you take his teachings, you put them into
practice, that is going to lead to a
life that is, that brings you meaning
and purpose and fulfillment in a way that other

(29:02):
choices, uh, whether they be philosophical
choices or theological choices, may not. I'm not saying it's the
best way ever. I'm not saying it's right for everyone. I'm just
saying that I think that it's a good way to live your life.

Every funeral that I've been doing lately,
the family wants John 14 where Jesus
says, I am the way, the truth and the life.
And um, you know, really like I
am the way, I'm the road. Like
this is, this is a path
that leads to truth

(29:34):
in life. Right. Like, yes, that,
um, I, I think it
is very arguably at the
heart of what Jesus was about.

I would agree completely. I think that's a great way to put it.
Uh, uh, and you've, you've redefined that verse in many
ways because the traditional way that people have interpreted that,
of course, is that you believe in him so you can go to
heaven. You just taking the concept of the way and saying it's a
path forward, a road that you can walk down. I mean,
that's a beautiful redefinition of that verse. And I think that

(30:06):
for me, I Would agree with that wholeheartedly.

Yeah, yeah. It's a path that leads
somewhere. Good. Um, I
guess the other follow up piece that I'm wondering about,
like, I'm intrigued by
Fred Rogers ending every
episode with this affirmation
that like, you are good
and worthy just the way that you are. Do you feel

(30:32):
like there is kind of a, uh,
basic affirmation that you're trying to
communicate in Kokoro?

Yeah. So I end every episode. I do borrow this
from Fred Rogers. I have an ending.
Um, I say, no matter who you are,
no matter where you've been, no matter how you feel,
please know that you are loved, you are seen
and you are cared for, if by no one else.
By me. So that's how I end every

(31:01):
episode. Um, and I feel
like this will get into kind of where the show is
ultimately going within the things
that we're talking about. Like, particularly when you're
talking about things like wounds or anxiety or people
don't feel like they are greatly
loved or seen or cared for.

(31:22):
Um, and so when you're talking about these kind of hard things,
often, and, um, they're not every episode is
really, really challenging and hard. Some are about
imagination and curiosity. There are other
things. But when you're talking about these hard things, I think people
need to know that no matter what they've been through,
that somebody sees you. Mhm,

(31:44):
mhm. And wants the best for you. Because I don't
know, I. In my experience, not everybody has
somebody like that in their lives.

Yeah, I think, um, I think knowing
that you're not alone, I think knowing
like being able to trace that there are reasons
why you feel this way, there
are resources for changing the
script. I mean, I think all of those
components are
extremely important and

(32:13):
some sometimes really easy to lose in
adulthood.

Yeah, I, uh, I think that the,
what I see for a lot of people is there's a
huge divide. There's people who have the
tools to be able to
take those hard things and start to work with them and the people who
don't. And I think that one of the most beautiful things
about where we are today is that

(32:38):
you can offer tools to people. I mean, that's
essentially what I'm doing, is I'm offering thoughts and tools
for how you could restructure your life, uh, particularly
if you were not privileged enough to have those
things, to be able to enter, to
even know. I mean, uh, something that is so
striking to me so often is that

(32:59):
you can talk to people and
you realize, oh my gosh, it's not that
you don't care about these things, it's just that you've never been exposed
to them. And with the right kind of
exposure, those tools can help you transform
your life. But until you have that exposure, you don't
know what you don't know.

Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. I want to come back
to this idea of
repackaging, um, our
core Christian messages
and communicating them in new
ways. Um, and just
give me a little leeway here because

(33:39):
this is an ongoing conversation for us in the
life of the church, particularly around social media.
Um, I think that
what we have tended to do in the
church, and I'm speaking from my neck of the
woods in the church, is that we have tended to
use social media as a

(34:00):
way of
marketing, um, our events. You know, like getting
people to come to the church, getting
people to follow our services, getting people to listen
to our sermons, getting people to
come support our
bazaar or whatever. And obviously

(34:21):
I think that there's value in doing all of that.
But I've really been
asking our team here to
consider also, particularly
with TikTok, because
we've just made some
experimental steps into TikTok,

(34:42):
um, like whether there's a
way of thinking about our use of social
media that is
not about trying to loop people
back to the church,
but instead is about
communicating a
message that we actually believe people need to

(35:04):
hear into
the social media landscape. Right. Like,
um, like I, I
am really convinced,
for example, that,
um, that
people need to be invited to see the nearness of God

(35:26):
at work in their lives. Like, people need to be invited
to have language and um,
vision to talk about and
see how the fingerprints
of the divine are kind of smudged all across
our human existence. And maybe that
is a, ah, good in and

(35:47):
of itself is to
be inviting whatever audience you happen to
connect with to just see the world
around them in a different way
without it having to
then also be
an invitation to. And come to our church.

(36:08):
Right. And come to
come to our Sunday service specifically, or,
you know, come to this upcoming fundraiser.
Um, how are you
sort of thinking about,
um, the
platform you're using, which right now is YouTube.

(36:29):
Right. Um,
like,
is the goal just
to, to be putting out a
message that people need to hear
or is there, is
there also a loop around,
you know, and then do

(36:51):
something about it?

Yeah. So you're, you're asking kind of a multi layered question
with this, which is, which is, I mean it's, and it's a,
actually I think it's a really fascinating question. What you're bringing
up. So let's take it back to Fred Rogers
just for. Because I think this is an interesting thing. Right. So he saw the
medium, like we talked about, the medium of television in
1960s is a way to reach children. And
social media platforms, they represent this

(37:15):
remarkable tool that has the potential to reach millions of people.
I mean, more than television ever could. Right.
However, one of the challenges with these platforms is that
unlike traditional television, whether or not
someone finds your clips is going to rely
heavily on what the algorithm decides to show
them. Right.

Yeah.

So I think we all know from being on these platforms,
content like what I'm creating is not
often going to show up in the feed. What tends to drive
the clicks, the likes, the interactions, are
clips that grab people's attention, which of course are going to be
things in the extreme. So um, it
can be extreme sports, it can be comedians making fun of

(37:56):
people, people, uh, doing dances that people love.
Right. Police, uh, chases celebrities and politicians saying
things that are controversial. So these are
the things that people watch and these are the things that tend to get the uh,
most like that show up. Mhm.
Now that said, there are
literally billions of people on these platforms. So just

(38:16):
because you post thoughtful content, it doesn't mean
there isn't a niche for you. Right? There's going to be
a niche out there. So I, but I
do believe that if you're going to get people to
watch something thoughtful or even theological,
how you dress it up matters.

Right.

So for example, let's take you're
preaching, you preach on Sunday. If you take a clip from you preaching on
Sunday morning and turn it into a short on
TikTok or YouTube or whatever on
Instagram, unless you're saying something
absolutely ridiculous like staring at the sun is
going to give you the ability to see Jesus, then it's just going to go
to the bottom of the heap. Right. No one's ever going to see that.

(38:55):
Now if you take that same content from your
sermon and you turn it into a skit where you act it out with
yourself, or you're able to catch
people's attention by delivering the content in a unique
way, then you have a higher probability of getting your content to
land. So I think to answer your question, yes, I
believe these platforms do offer the ability to
help people to examine their lives and see the

(39:18):
world differently, just like what Fred Rogers
did. But it has to be very
different and outside the box compared to what the church
currently offers.

Yeah, because I guess the thing with
Kokoro and the thing that I'M
constantly struggling with, and, you
know, lots of us in Christian leadership are
constantly struggling with, is how you get out of the echo
chamber. Like, ultimately, you don't want
Kokoro to just reach
the same people who are already engaged with

(39:50):
your work. Right. Like, you want to
make a connection with people who.
Who haven't heard that message and
who are going to be
built up and strengthened and
given something good in their lives that,
like, they need. Right.

(40:11):
Not just sort of enrichment for people who are
already, like, tuned
into the good news. Right.

Yeah, well, that's. And I think that's the challenging aspect
of this platform is that
the things that people like, why do people get on it? They
don't get on it generally to think, oh, I want to be
enriched. Like, they get on it to be
entertained. Right, Right. So I think
that's the challenge with it,
is that most

(40:41):
people's purpose in being there is not the purpose of what
we're trying to create. So you have to be
sneaky. I mean, I hate to say that, but you just kind of, uh. Do you have to be
sneaky about it? And so, like, one thing that I'm doing with my
stuff, which is so my show, it ranges anywhere
from, you know, it can be anywhere from 14 minutes to 24 minutes. It
depends on what we're talking about. The, uh, interviews, all that stuff.

(41:02):
I know that putting that up in a big block
is going to do me no good. Right. Like, I'm going to put
it up there. I'm going to say I edit the show so it's a whole show so people can watch
it. And I want people to watch it. But how do I get people to go to the
show? I get people to go to the show by creating
small little shorts of my
stuff that'll catch people's attention. And m.

(41:22):
Then hopefully what that'll lead them to is to that segment
that that's from. So they'll watch the segment and then from the segment,
my hope is that they'll go to the whole show. So the
idea is that you have to. You literally are laying
breadcrumbs for people and hoping
that they will be able to
eventually find their way. Because when you think about it, that's how

(41:42):
we find our way to most things that we like now is
it's a short that kind of gets us, you know, what's
our appetite? Then we kind of say, well, wait, who is this person?
You click on the thing and then they usually have something a little larger. And
then you're going like, to the whole thing. So I feel like you
have to use that methodology, but you have to. But
the other thing is, and this is kind of another aspect to it, which is

(42:03):
hard for you in your position and why it's easier for
me. So you're running an entire
institutional church right now. Right. Like, like, you. You
are. You're. That's, that's, uh, that's your job.
So for me, I can think about this all
day, every day. I can put tons of time and resources into which,
by the way, like to edit my episodes. You're talking
about, you know, 30 hours a week for me to do that.

(42:26):
So you don't have that kind of time to
write to film. Right. Like, like,
you need. You would need a group of people
to come together and help you do this,
to, uh, make it happen. And that's the problem is that most churches,
A, they're not thinking that far outside the box.
B, you know, even if you personally have

(42:46):
the capacity to do it well, you often don't have the time
to do it well enough to make it, like, to make it
stick. Because, uh, it's not just getting one thing they
have. You have to constantly produce
content.

Yeah.

And I think that's the hardest thing about it.

Yeah. And I mean, it is exciting that
you have the capacity to be
able to invest that sort of time
and vision and imagination
into, um, I think what's a really
important, important creative venture and like,
such an important frontier for us to be
on. Ah, in Christian leadership and faith

(43:25):
leadership. Like, are you. I
guess, what is your vision for
where you hope Kokoro will go? And
like, a sidebar to that question is like, do you
hope people like me and other
Christian leaders, do you hope that, like, will
access your show as resources that

(43:45):
we can offer our people? Like,
is that. And our audiences, like, is
that part of what you're hoping to do?
Realizing that, you know, a lot of us
who are leading churches are strapped for time and
resources.

Yeah. So, I mean, in some ways the
hope is, you know, if we're thinking, like, what kind of audience would it
be like if you kind of start there? You know, I think that for
me, my, my audience is. Is definitely
people who want meaning. They're searching for meaning. So that's going to be like, my, my,
my initial target audience is people searching for meaning
thinkers, people who love to learn. Um,

(44:22):
but I also, it's not just that, you know, I'm also
thinking, okay, if you're, if you're somebody who's
depressed or you're somebody who's dealing with anxiety and you come
across one of my clips. Well, that's something that
could really get you going down this
path. That wouldn't, which is why I'm trying all these
different things. So it's like my target demographic is people
pretty much like you. Right. It's, it's people who

(44:45):
listen to this podcast. And I hope that, you know, I would
love it if somebody took a little clip of what I did
for, uh, one of my sections and used it in their sermon or use
it, you know, that's what it's there for. It's, you know, I make it and, and
I want it to be, I want it to be spread in that way.

Right, right.

Um, but I think one of the problems with
this medium that we get
into is that as much as the content
lends itself to a person having
a rich inner life and exploring these topics that could
really widen, give them an interaction with the divine.
The thing that you have to get more comfortable with in
delivering this message is that you are trying to

(45:22):
cement yourself as someone who is recognized by the public at
large. I mean, I hate to say it, like, I hate the
word influencer, like I actually despise it because
it brings to mind the idea that your credibility
is being used to peddle all sorts of goods and services
that come from endorsements.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's of course diametrically opposed to the way the mainline
church operates. Like, we try not to
have personality driven ministries in the
mainline church. Right. We don't, we don't want that in our churches.

Yeah, yeah.

But the problem is, is that in the world of social media,
name recognition does matter.
So I think that if you're really going to invest time in trying to
spread ideas to these platforms, you're
simultaneously going to have to build a
following. And I think that in and of
itself is hard for a
lot of pastors generally to

(46:14):
get their mind around. Because I think that if you're
humble enough about what you're trying to do as a pastor,
that's not really your goal. Your goal is to spread the good news,
right? Mhm. It's not about you, it's about this
larger message that you're trying to get out there. But in order
for it to really work on social media, you have to kind of get comfortable
with that idea and live in that tension a bit.

Yeah. And where are you sort of falling on that tension
right now? Like, do you feel like you can
walk that line?

Well, I think before that Viral moment
back in, uh, like a year ago,
um, I was not very comfortable with that at all.
In fact, when I started Restorative Faith. This is interesting. I
remember I was doing the website and there were no, there was like one
picture of me on the website. And I remember I had
somebody come in and take a look at it because I wasn't getting any views. And they
said, well, of course it's not getting any views.

(47:05):
Nobody knows what it's about. They like. And
they're like, what's it about? I was like, well, it's about these ideas. And they're like people.
And like this woman was really direct with me. She's
like, people don't care about ideas. She's
like, I'm sorry to say it, like they don't. They care about
who's the person conveying the idea.
So unless you're going to get out there and put your. So now

(47:25):
my face is all over the website. Right? Because,
because. And I. And that was hard for me because I was like, well, no, it's
not about that. It's. It's about, it's about the ideas
themselves. So for me, I think that was like a
first step. And then when that thing went viral, that's when I was
like, oh, this is what. It's a little taste of what it's like to be
in the public eye like that. It's not super fun all

(47:45):
the way around, I'm not going to lie. But at the same time,
people paid attention.

Yeah. It is, uh,
kind of an interesting
paradox of social media
because like, we're always complaining about how
social media is
sort of the death of personal in
person communication. And yet it is

(48:10):
so driven by the personal, by like that
desire to connect personally
with, with others.
Right. Like to feel like this is somebody
that, that I,
I know about their lives and therefore I'm
interested in the ideas that they
have to share. Although there's something kind of

(48:32):
beautiful about that too. Right. Like that,
uh, that just basic human desire that no
matter what media we come up with and how
the platforms change and stuff like that
desire to connect personally
is always there.

Yeah. Which you know, just to kind of
say, you know, where Kokoro goes.
Because, you know, the idea is I'm making these 12
episodes for a first season, but
the idea is I want to garner enough
consistent viewers that I'm going to have an audience
who wants to engage with a live show,
so.

Oh, okay.

So like in the first episode I stayed openly, like at the
conclusion of the first Season I'm going to host a weekly live
choro on Patreon beginning, uh, in
January. And so the show,
the live show will have some similarities with the film show.
Like, I'll tell stories, we'll have points of learning. I'll probably
interview people. But the big difference, like the

(49:29):
core difference is that I want to spend time
interacting with people who are,
who saw me and now they want. Because the
whole point is like, I want to build a community and I want
to talk about their lives. I want to talk about what are you facing.
Like, uh, and create this supportive community
where those words, I told you at the end aren't just
words. It's actually happening for

(49:52):
them in real time when we get together. So
like January 8th, uh, you know, that's when it
launches on Patreon. And so like 7 to 8pm every
Wednesday Central, uh, standard time. That's where I'm going to do
it for about three months and see what happens. You know, if
nobody shows up, nobody shows up. But I'm m going to try.
And I think you have to do that because the difference between my

(50:12):
Mr. Rogers neighborhood and uh, where he's
talking to children is they have a suspension of disbelief
that m. Like, to them there's no diff. Like they're in Mr.
Rogers house with him. That, that, that
glass doesn't, doesn't appear to them
adults. We do not have that suspension of disbelief. We need that
interactivity to feel connected. And

(50:32):
so my hope is, is that, that we. That Patreon
would be like the perfect bridge that allows us to
like, create that community from all over the world.

Yeah, I mean, that sounds very pastoral
and like, again, it sounds like a, uh,
uh, reworking of some of the
basic pillars of church community
into something that,
um, is maybe going to
connect people who wouldn't be interested in a

(51:02):
church community but would
be very much nurtured
by, um, authentic
community and the living. Out of
those core messages. Where does the
name kokoro come from?

It's a Japanese term. Uh,
I come across it a number of years ago.
And, um, it really, it's. It's a
sacred word in Japanese culture that talks about
the connection between body, mind and soul, or heart,
mind and soul. Kokoro encompasses
what we're thinking and feeling, uh, our

(51:40):
aspirations for ourselves, which is kind of cool. Uh,
and then, because that's a lot of what I'm talking about. But one of the
best English renderings of it, I think is the heart of the
map.

Okay.

Uh, which I think embodies the purposes of the
show.

And is that a definition that you
give out on one of the episodes, or that is sort
of built into the each
episode?

The opening episode is where I describe. In fact, in the opening
episode, I talk about Mr. Rogers. Uh,
I just lay it out of kind
of what we're here to do, and I define it for
people and talk about what Kokoro is meant to be and what we're
trying to do. So that. That's like the opening pilot is really trying to
do that part of it all. Ah, right.

So, Alex, I've gotten to talk to you a couple of
times now, and, uh, both on this
podcast and some conversations offline,
um, I feel like there are themes that keep coming
up in our conversations and in the
work that you're putting out into the world.
Um, I think that there's a lot around,

(52:43):
uh, you know, what faith looks like for the modern
person. Um, that word beauty
keeps coming up. And beauty as a
connection to the divine. Do you feel like
Kokoro is a building
of these, you know,
recurring themes? How does that connect

(53:03):
to those recurring themes that you keep coming
back to?

Yeah, I mean, for me personally,
I feel very fortunate that I have a
background in film, uh, the way that I do,
because, uh, when I decided to create the show,
you know, most people when we're talking about social media, they film stuff on their
cell phone.

Yeah.

Uh, and for me, what I
wanted to do is I wanted to create something that had some artistry to
it and that felt,
um. Because, I mean, the truth is that it's really me speaking
into a camera for the most part, for. For most of the
show, uh, and
that can get old very quickly. So to me,

(53:45):
I really wanted to make it so that there was some
beauty inside of it.
Um, and so for me, as much as I
could when I'm filming the thing, um, I
wanted people to see it and be like, oh. I want it to be
striking in enough that it was different than what most people
see out there, that it's close to film, but
not quite. So it's kind of like this in between. And so

(54:07):
we do a lot of shots that are. That
are very intentional around things. So I
did. I'll give you an example that I just really like. I just edited
the fourth episode, which is about curiosity.
And in the segment where I'm doing the tactile thing, I'm doing
painting. But at the same time, while I'm painting, I'm talking
about Leonardo da Vinci, who was known for being this

(54:27):
super curious guy, uh, who. And that's.
And it's a big reason why his paintings are
so incredibly beautiful is because
he, he managed, through his
curiosity about the world, to learn about,
like, physics of light refraction and, and
uh, how to, like, make really deep saturated colors.

(54:47):
He, you know, he would exhume bodies
and like, cut them apart to learn about musculature.
So while I'm painting,
you're seeing in the same room at the same
time his paintings projected on the
wall. Which, of course, my paintings are
horrible, like little kid versions of paintings, but there's a
contrast to them. The point being that there's this really kind of

(55:10):
beautiful resonance between them
that it gives you this moment of like, oh, my gosh, like, this
is really, uh, it's like
a beautiful way of going back and forth rather than me just sitting there and being like, well, let me tell
you about Leonardo da Vinci. Right?

Yeah.

Like, there's this moment of you're kind of seeing them go back and
forth and then there's really beautiful music underneath it.
And so my hope is, and I don't know if it'll happen, but
my hope is that there are moments
where people will feel that through
the combination of writing, creative camera shots and music,
that they encounter something beautiful. And

(55:46):
that is a touch of, oh, I feel that
divine inside of me. And so that, uh, I
mean, and I don't know if that's going to happen. Like, I don't know if that will
occur, but that's what I'm aiming for.
Uh, the show itself.

Yeah. And, you know, I have to say, Alex, like, over
the course of getting to know you,
I just have so much appreciation for the
level of detail
and, um, intentionality that you
bring to all of the different
media that you explore, whether it's
your writing, whether it's, um,

(56:21):
kokoro, uh, whether it's
podcasting, um, I just
feel like you are so attentive
to those details that actually make
something pop with beauty and
can sort of catch somebody off guard.
Um, and I think that being caught off guard,
whether people have the language for it or not,

(56:45):
is, uh, a connection to the
divine. I really do.
So let's take a break and we're going to
come back for some closing questions that
are custom made for you,
Alex, because we've talked enough
that, uh, I know some of the things
that you might be interested in wrapping up

(57:06):
with.

Thanks. Looking forward to it.

Welcome back to the Future Christian podcast.
And we are going to close out with a couple
of questions These are usually
our rapid fire questions. Um, but because
we've had Alex on the podcast before,
have custom made just a couple of questions that
we can ask each other and uh, builds

(57:33):
on some of the things that we've talked about
over the course of several episodes.
So Alex, what
is an important
movie or TV show? I guess other than Mr.
Rogers neighborhood? Because we've already talked about that.
Um, uh, that would be a touchstone of
faith for you.

Most recently, definitely the Bear.
I don't know if you've seen that show.

I have not.

It's about a restaurant opening up in Chicago.
But oh my God, it's like, it's, it's, it
captures so many different aspects of life.
So talk about wounds. Everyone in that show is wounded in their
own unique way. Um, but how they love each
other in the show is really beautiful. Uh,
so it's about, it's a show that,
where everybody is trying to find their best self and

(58:23):
they don't entirely know how to do it, but with
each other they kind of start working towards that.
Uh, and the question is, are they going to be able to get out of their own way? By
the way, it's one of the most beautifully shot shows
I've ever seen. I mean it's gorgeous cinematography,
so I can't recommend it enough.

Okay, well, I have heard a number of people that
I like to listen to talking about the Bear, so I
feel like you have, um, just
confirmed that this is actually something I need to
get on watching.

Yeah, it's a good one for sure. What about you?

Well, I think
I'm going to pick Hamilton, which I
realize is also or
primarily a stage
production, but I haven't seen it on stage. I've
only seen it uh, on
the Disney platform, the recording.

(59:16):
Um, and
there's just this profound
moment of
Hamilton, Alexander Hamilton having
really messed up and
then losing a child.
And in the midst of this

(59:37):
just gut wrenching grief,
um, there's this
experience of forgiveness and grace
and it uh, and it just gets
articulated in such a beautiful way. And I'm always such a
sucker for music, being part of
how, um, things are communicated. And

(59:58):
then, you know, the show
ends and
um, you sort of
wonder whether it was about
Alexander Hamilton or whether it was
maybe about his wife
and some of those other voices that
um, that we otherwise don't notice

(01:00:20):
or forget to tell some of
these stories. There's just like some really
cool points in that story
that uh,
flip the narrative
and um, just say
profound things to me about forgiveness and
grace.

>> Alexander Lang (01:00:42):
Yeah, it's an amazing show. I've seen it live. It's
fantastic.

>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:45):
Oh, my gosh, I'm jealous.
Okay, what about a signature song?
What, uh, would be a song
that you would kind of use as,
uh, an explanation of what
this is all about, what we're all about.

So I think that changes depending on where I am in my life.
But right now, I would say the song that does that
for me is Together by Nine Inch Nails.
Which I know will sound strange,
but, uh, if you remember Nine Inch Nails from the 90s,
they were, like this really, like, heavy band. But if
you. But I don't know if you followed Trent Reznor's career,

(01:01:23):
but he has teamed up with Atticus Ross. They've won two Academy
Awards for the film scoring. I mean, they're
brilliant artists. And so the two of them did a Nine Inch Nails
album back in 2020, and the track together
was actually used as
the background music for the first episode of
season three of the Bear. And,
uh, that episode. That opening episode,

(01:01:46):
like, blew me away. I could. There
was probably 20 words of dialogue in the whole episode,
but this song was the backing track to
it. And I've rarely been transported out of
myself like that before. The only comparison I have is Terence
Malick's Tree of Life. Um, so I was definitely
crying a lot when I got to the end of that episode of the Bear.

(01:02:06):
Um. Um. So honestly, that song could be
the backing track for all of life for me, like, if I.
If I wanted to be. So I. I highly recommend that.

Okay, I'm gonna check it out immediately. And, yeah, I think
that tears are a really good sign that something
important is happening.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. What about you?

Yeah, I mean, again, like, it. It
can depend on, uh, the day and the
time. And it's really hard to narrow down one song.
But I would say that a song that I keep coming back to is
Jubilee by Mary Chapin Carpenter.
And, um. Yeah, to me,
it. It

(01:02:45):
speaks of some of those things that we've been talking
about today. Like, it talks about
wounds and it talks about healing,
and it. It talks about
that. That search for something
that is sometimes hard to name.
Um, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna say some of

(01:03:06):
the lyrics. Cause I can't help myself. But,
um, one of the verses says, I can
tell by the way you're searching for something you can't even
name that you haven't been able to come to the
table. Simply glad that you came. And when you
feel like this, try to imagine that we're all like frail
boats on the sea, just scanning the night for

(01:03:26):
that great guiding light announcing the
Jubilee. Wow.

It's beautiful.

Yeah, I love sort of the.
To me, I hear Christian imagery
in the table and the jubilee and
the guiding light. Um,
but it's poetic
and I think universal enough
that people can just be

(01:03:53):
sort of struck by the. The
feeling of
understanding what's being said.

You know, for sure. For
sure. Now that's, that's, uh, that really hits
it quite well.

All right, well, thank you so much, Alex.
And, uh, do you want to give
our listeners, um, just any
places where they can find you, engage with your
work, follow up on
Kokoro.

I'll send over the YouTube channel link so that you
guys can post it in the show notes. But there's going to be a lot of things.
I'll have it on restorative faith as well. So it's. So
there's going to be a lot of ways that I'm going to try to get it out
there. And, um, the first,
the first episode debuts, uh, September
18th. And, uh, then it's going to be every
Wednesday from that point forward for the next 12 weeks or

(01:04:46):
so.

Okay, well, good luck
and thank you so much. We always close with a
word of peace, so may God's peace be with.

You, Alex, and also with you. Thank
you.

>> Loren (01:05:05):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at ah,
future-christian.com and find the
Connect with us form at the bottom of the page to get
in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go,

(01:05:27):
do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks. And go in PE.

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