May 7, 2024 • 50 mins
In this conversation, Tessa Pinkstaff and Dwight Zscheile discuss their book, Leading Faithful Innovation. They define faithful innovation as the adoption of new or ancient practices that help the church connect more deeply with God, each other, and their neighbors. They emphasize the need for leaders to create an environment where the Holy Spirit can lead and for the church to embrace failure as a learning opportunity. They also discuss the importance of cultivating a culture of listening, acting, and sharing. The guests discuss the need for churches to adapt and change in order to connect with people in today's culture. They emphasize the importance of empowering laypeople and creating a culture of deep listening and discernment. They also address the challenges of consensus and the potential for political and cultural tribalism to overshadow the gospel.
Tessa Pinkstaff is the founder of Practices for Life, a ministry that invites people to explore Christian practices as a way to experience God’s presence. She currently leads the weekly Dwelling in the Word online gathering and serves as a project consultant for Luther Seminary’s Faith+Lead. Tessa is a co-author of Leading Faithful Innovation: Following God into a Hopeful Future. She has a Master of Arts in Ministry from Bethel Seminary and is in the process of becoming certified as a spiritual director.
Dwight Zscheile is vice president of innovation and professor of congregational mission and leadership at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota. He is also a co-author of Leading Faithful Innovation, and has authored several other books. A graduate of Stanford University, Yale University, and Luther Seminary, he is an ordained Episcopal priest and has served congregations in Minnesota, Virginia and Connecticut. Dwight’s experience growing up in a secular home in California has shaped his commitment to helping the church cultivate Christian community with neighbors in today’s changing world.
Past Episode with Dwight: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/dwight-zscheile-and-the-future-of-mainline-churches/
URL for the book on faithlead.org: https://faithlead.org/topics/faithful-innovation/ URL for the workbook: faithlead.org/ebooks/faithful-innovation-leader-companion
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Torn Curtain Arts is a non-profit ministry that works with worship leaders, creatives, and churches to help avoid burnout, love their work, and realize their full creative potential.
Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Guest Host / Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Executive Producer
Danny Burton - Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Loren (00:05):
Um.
>> Paul (00:05):
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church into the 21st century.
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
(00:27):
Now here's your host. Lauren Richmond, Junior.
>> Loren (00:33):
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today we're
welcoming Tessa Pinkstaff and Dwight Schiley.
Tessa is the founder of Practices for Life, a
ministry that invites people to explore christian practices
as a way to experience God's presence.
She currently leads the weekly dwelling in the word online
gathering and serves as a project consultant
for Luther Seminary's faith lead.
(00:55):
Tessa is a co author of leading faithful
Innovation, following God into a hopeful
future. She has a Master of Arts in ministry
from Bethel Seminary and is in the process
of becoming certified as a spiritual director.
Dwight is vice president of innovation and
professor of congregational mission and leadership at
Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota.
(01:18):
He is also a co author of leading faithful
Innovation and has authored several other
books. A graduate of Stanford
University, Yale University, and Luther
Seminary, he is an ordained episcopal
priest and has served congregations in Minnesota,
Virginia, and Connecticut. Dwight's
experience growing up in a secular home in California
(01:39):
has shaped his commitment to helping the church cultivate
christian community with neighbors in today's changing
world.
Let's welcome Tessa and Dwight to the show.
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Loren Richmond
Junior. Today I'm, um, pleased to be joined by
(02:02):
Tessa Pinkstaff and Dwight Shiley.
So, thank you all so much for being here. We're here to talk about their book,
leading faithful innovation, which we'll get to here
shortly. But before we jump into that, uh, Tessa
and Dwight, anything else you want to say about yourselves for our
listeners?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (02:20):
Yeah, I'll start. Uh, I want to share that.
What I most love about, uh, the work
that I do is those moments when
someone's understanding of who God is moves from their head
down to their heart. And sometimes you can actually see that
shift happening, because oftentimes there's strong
emotion. Um, so what I'm talking about is a person going
from an intellectual way of relating to God to this
(02:42):
personal, relational experience of God. It is such a
powerful thing. Uh, and I want to thank you for having
us today. It's a pleasure to be here.
>> Loren (02:50):
Thank you. Yeah.
>> Dwight Zscheile (02:53):
And, um, also thanks for having us. For me,
my passion is really about helping local
churches adapt, uh, to connect
with neighbors and connect with God more
deeply in today's changing world. And that really comes out
of, um, my own experience growing up outside the
church.
>> Loren (03:12):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that, if you would,
again, also, uh, share y'all's faith journeys. Kind
of, uh, what that looked like in the past and what that looks like
today. Tessa, you're welcome to kick off again
there.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (03:24):
Yeah, thanks. Well, I became a
Christian in college, and when I first started
my faith journey, my faith revolved around having the right
answers, knowing the right doctrine, behaving the right way.
It was all about being right. And there wasn't a lot of room for much
else because I was first learning what it meant to be a
Christian. But that's very
(03:44):
distinct from my journey now. Um,
it's evolved quite a bit over time, and I'd say now it's more
about, um, it's about embracing the mystery
that God has, both knowable through scripture and through the revelation
of Jesus. But God is also unknowable
because God is so far outside our finite human
understanding. I love that.
(04:05):
What that means is there's always more to discover
about God, more to explore. And so for me now, it's
less about being right and it's more about just being.
The presence of God is what has become core for me.
>> Loren (04:17):
That's great, Dwight. Yeah.
>> Dwight Schiley (04:20):
So, as I mentioned, I grew up, um, in a secular
home, grew up in California in a, ah, context
where Christianity's never been
particularly well established. And going to church is
kind of a really countercultural and odd thing to do. And so,
um, when I came to faith as a young adult, I found
myself going through a variety of different christian
(04:41):
traditions, um, just really having a lot
of powerful experiences in those. And eventually
settled in anglicanism and was
ordained, um, been ordained in the episcopal
church, um, for quite a while.
Um, and so for me,
I think of myself as sort of having an
evangelical heart and an ecumenical soul, you might
(05:03):
say.
>> Loren (05:05):
Yeah, I like that.
Often, um, say I have a brain of a mainliner in
the heart of an evangelical. So I think I
can relate there. Share, if you
all would, uh, something, a spiritual
practice that's been meaningful or fulfilling your soul of
late.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (05:24):
Loren, I love this question. Uh, and I want
to say that scripture meditation is the practice
that's hugely important for me. We call it dwelling in
the word in the book, and that's how we practice
it through faith lead. But what it actually is is it's
an adapted or a simplified form of lectio divina.
And, uh, it's something that has
(05:45):
really nourished me in my spiritual journey,
and it's a practice that the more you do it, the more depth and
riches come out of it. Um, the other one that I
love, uh, that I feel like is something that
is a little unique to me, is that I'm really into silence and
solitude. Uh, silent prayer and regular silent
retreats are an important part of my journey. And then
the last one I want to say is, uh, simplicity. Um, that's
(06:08):
a, uh, practice of holding our possessions loosely,
but also being honest in how we communicate with other people.
So, like, if I don't want to do something, the practice of
simplicity invites me to let my yes be yes and
my no be no. Uh, I love that Jesus gave
us some good wisdom there.
>> Loren (06:24):
Yeah.
So I guess if you're just done with this, right, you can just be like,
Loren, I'm done and you're just going to sign out, right?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (06:31):
No, no, that is not good. Today, my yes was
a yes. I'm here for a reason.
>> Dwight Schiley (06:38):
Well, for me, the spiritual practice of simplicity has
actually been really important in this season of life. Um, my wife and I
are empty nesters and we're in the process of
downsizing out of our home we've lived in for
eleven years into a much smaller place, which
is great and has involved the
purgation of a lot of stuff and really kind
of thinking about what do we really need to carry forward.
(07:01):
And having been through the process of
um, trying to help parents, um, who are
quite a bit older, sort of deal with their stuff
that's accumulated, um, it's been actually a
powerful thing to release
things and just give things away so that someone
else, um, can use them.
>> Loren (07:22):
Those are great. Thank you both for sharing all that.
So I'm looking forward to, I'm excited to talk
about this. Um, Dwight, along
with Tessa and Michael, was not unable to be here.
Michael Binder, is it?
>> Dwight Schiley (07:36):
Binder.
>> Loren (07:36):
Binder.
Excuse me. Michael Binder. Uh, are
the authors of following God into a hopeful.
Excuse me, I'm saying this wrong. Leading faithful innovation, following God
into a hopeful future. This is a book and I was trying to look
around somewhere. I have the workbook that goes with
it on my desk, but I must have it
buried under my other piles of books. So there's a book.
(07:57):
And then y'all came out with a workbook, which again I thought
was great.
I used both,
um, in churches I've served.
And I just frankly, was giving a
presentation at a conference
this past week and I shared a story
that we may touch on here of the prayer
(08:17):
walk. And let me tell you that story just
it hits wherever you share that, because it's such a powerful
story. But, uh, before we get into the.
Details,
um, just kind of talk about.
What brought the book, about what inspired the book, that
sort of thing.
>> Dwight Schiley (08:34):
Well, so, Loren, this book is the result of, um,
us working with our team at Luther
Seminary, and even before that, with other
partners, with hundreds of congregations, directly or
indirectly, over a number of years, where we've
been trying to help them adapt faithfully
to the changing context in which they find themselves,
(08:54):
and particularly to address
what we think of as a core challenge of learning how to
connect more deeply with God, each other within
the congregation, and then with their neighbors. And
so the book really
was, um, in our attempt to put into
relatively, I hope, accessible form with lots
of stories, um, the learnings
(09:17):
that we've had, um, over
years of working, um, with a lot of congregations trying to
take this journey.
>> Loren (09:26):
Yeah.
And I think it's so helpful. Um, so, uh,
I want to just kind of like, read through some quotes here, because,
again, there's so much from this book that really
stuck out to me and hear y'all's responses.
So, uh, Tessa, this one really off the
bat, I think I found this really quite meaningful.
And I think this is undergirded
(09:47):
by what I am seeing is this
implicit belief that church matters. You all write
that the church is the bearer of God's redemptive mission for the
world. And at least in some of the circles I run in,
it seems like there's this more and more.
I'm not sure what word to say, but this idea that church
doesn't really matter or is a secondary importance.
(10:08):
And, uh, you all seem to have a very foundational belief in the
importance of the church. Do you want to talk more about that?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (10:15):
Yeah. And I'm glad that you brought that quote. It's
so important. We, um, believe that the church is
and should be a place where people can actually
encounter Jesus. And why does that matter?
It matters because encounters with Jesus and this is
the living Christ, those are the things that transform
us. That's what makes it possible for us to bear fruits
(10:36):
of the spirit and then to actually do the work of
extending God's grace and mercy into the world.
We know that God's mission is for the world to be redeemed,
and the church is the mechanism through which God does
that. And a lot of what we talk about in the book
is how, when the church doesn't recognize that it has that
role, then it becomes. It can be just a
(10:56):
private club, for example, of programs and social
gatherings. And it's based on other
things. But what it really is is it's an
agency where God's ambassadors are nurtured and trained
and sent out. And that is why.
That's why the church matters. And that's also why
it matters that we make sure that the church is
(11:16):
an institution that is really fulfilling its mission.
That's what it exists for.
>> Loren (11:21):
Yeah, I want to stay on this point, maybe just for my own
sake.
Again, I shared
that story, a story.
I referenced from y'all's book in a, uh, little conference I was
speaking at this week. And, I mean, I pretty much
said those same words myself. Like, I believe that
the church is the. I didn't use a word for word, but
(11:42):
the similar language, the bearer of God's redemptive mission for the
world. And I think the church is meant to be more
than just a community center. Uh, kind of like what
you alluded to, Tessa. Uh. Uh,
Dwight, do you have any thoughts you want to add to this
point?
Yeah.
>> Dwight Schiley (11:58):
Well, so I always appreciate Leslie Newbigen's
statement that the church is the hermeneutic of
the gospel. The local church is the hermeneutic of the gospel. It's
the place where the world looks to see the
gospel embodied and interpreted
in real life circumstances. And, of course, there's
all kinds of ambiguity of that, because humans are
(12:18):
sinful and the church is both holy and human.
Um, but I do think that the power
of a local community, of people who are living
and practicing the way of Jesus is
essential. And I think the challenges that
coming out of the long period of Christendom in the west
at least, we have a lot
of other purposes that have
(12:41):
kind of affixed themselves, if you will, to many
local churches that end up predominating.
Um, what the main focus is, rather than
just this participation and witness to
God's redemptive mission in Christ.
>> Loren (12:56):
Yeah. And I want to speak, I guess,
as a pastor, former pastor, former church leader. This
is, I think, is what makes.
It so hard to be a
leader.
Is that these are good things. We're not
saying these are bad things.
Or unimportant things, but
I, uh, use.
The reference of the tail wagging the dog.
(13:17):
Sometimes some of these good things can get in the way
of the ultimate purpose.
So let's talk about this
idea that.
You all have of faithful
innovation. And I'm looking over to my stack
of books. Uh, I think I've given away several books that,
(13:38):
uh, I've read that have been good books on this topic
of innovation in the church. So, uh, Dwight,
just give some terms there. By what you mean
by the term faithful.
Innovation, yes.
>> Dwight Schiley (13:50):
So the word innovation is one we have to use really carefully,
because it's liable to be
misunderstood, particularly if what
we mean by innovation is
invention, or simply the church's embrace
of the latest kind of
modern techniques to try to turn around the
institution. Um, and so
(14:11):
we don't mean that at all. That word faithful is really important.
But also, how we define innovation
comes from, um, some innovation scholars, Denning
and Dunham, in their book innovators way, and they say,
quite simply, innovation is the adoption of a new practice
in a community. And in our case, with the church,
often that means the adoption of ancient practices that we've actually
(14:31):
lost along the way. So I would just want to make very clear
to your listeners here that, um, when we use the word
innovation, what we're not saying is the
church needs to grasp after one
more organizational technique
to save itself. We think
that's actually quite wrong. And in fact, the journey that we
(14:51):
describe is really a journey, again, of connecting
more deeply with God, each other, and your neighbors
through simplification of church life, and
a, ah, refocusing on practices
that help people go deeper in their life with
God and participate more deeply in what God's doing in
the neighborhoods.
>> Loren (15:12):
Yeah, it's funny because innovation is quite the
obsession right now. I feel like in mainline churches, and
it's at least as I see it,
it's not about the adoption of new or ancient practices.
It's about trying new things. Like, I'm literally, I won't
say, uh, from where it's from, but I was thinking,
like, I'm literally wearing a,
(15:33):
a shirt on some innovation conference from
a certain mainline denomination that was sent to me.
Um, and then im kind of chuckling because I think
hes a colleague of yours, uh, the
book churches and the crisis of innovation.
I got that book thinking it was a church innovation
book, and its anything but that. Um, so,
(15:54):
Tessa, anything you want to.
Add there about this,
uh, this different.
Way of thinking about innovation, not as magic
bullets or trying the latest gizmo?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (16:07):
Yeah, thanks, Lauren. And I want to
affirm that I love that Dwight mentioned the ancient spiritual practices,
because I do think that is the key to what we're talking about
here. I also want to add that the pattern that
we describe in the book is listen, act,
share. And what we mean by that is
listening for the movement, the movement and guidance of the Holy
Spirit, listening to our neighbors and about
(16:29):
their hopes and dreams and fears, what keeps
them up at night. And then from that
listening, you adopt
simple experiments. Action learning experiments is
what we call them. And that's based on what you heard. And you try
some things in your context. So you are trying something new, but
it's based on this tradition. It's based on what's come before. It's
(16:49):
based on the learning and the listening that you're doing. And
then from there, you talk about what
you learned and you share that with the community. And then that
discernment process continues.
Uh, it's iterative. And
we find that that pattern was extremely
effective in the work that Dwight described at the beginning that
(17:10):
we did with the congregations and the churches, and even
at the judicatory level as well.
>> Loren (17:16):
I love that monarch and listen, act, share. It's so
simple.
Go ahead.
>> Dwight Schiley (17:20):
Yeah, I'd love to just add a little, kind of thicken this up because I
think this is really important for us to think about. What do
we mean by innovation? Um, so one of the
great core heresies of
modernity, western modernity, is that humans can save
themselves. And
so what we're trying to do in this process, through these
(17:41):
practices of listening, acting and sharing, is
actually to subvert that. And we subvert it
by introducing very simple,
actionable, accessible things
that everyday people, ordinary people and
congregations can try on
that give them experiences
of naming God's activity in their lives
(18:02):
and beginning to name God's activity in the neighborhood.
And so what we're doing is actually
subverting the kind of we have to
fix it ourselves cultural framework that we're
shaped in, in the west. Um, but we're
doing it kind of indirectly, if you will.
>> Loren (18:21):
Yeah, it's such a different
model and mindset, uh, to me. I think that's what
makes it so powerful. Um, so
kind of to that point, y'all write,
uh, on page 16. Faithfully innovative
leadership is less about managing what is truly God's work,
and more about cultivating an environment in which
(18:41):
God acts, which again, I think speaks to Dwight, what you were just
saying. And Dwight,
I use a highlighting app on my phone and I wrote a
note here. I cant remember if this was what was in
the text, but im reading it from my phone. But I wrote a note not
casting vision. And I listen
to all, or uh, not all, but several of the
evangelical podcasts where its all about
(19:04):
the lead pastor casting a big vision.
And ill confess, I think sometimes that matters. But I
think what y'all are saying really strikes
me as different, yet powerful. Uh, so, Dwight,
why don't you start with that again? This
kind of mind shift there.
Yeah.
>> Dwight Schiley (19:22):
So we want local churches
and all of their people to recognize that the Holy Spirit
should be the primary leader of the church. And if
that's the case, the Holy Spirit works among the whole people of God. And
so leadership is really, really important
to create an environment in which,
um, we collectively can attend
(19:43):
to and name and wrestle with and
interpret how the Holy Spirit is at work in
our own lives, personally, in the life of the community, and then in the life
of the neighborhood as well. So I think
about leaders as being those who sort of weave
together and interpret and
articulate the vision that God has given to the whole people
of God. But it's a bottom up rather than
(20:05):
a top down kind of approach.
>> Loren (20:08):
Yeah, tess. And I'm, um, thinking about this just again, as
someone who's been a leader.
In that context, and I'm curious if.
You'Ve heard this kind of feedback from other pastors and leaders, like
the.
What's the word?
I'm thinking of, like, the lack of pressure, the kind of.
The release of pressure to have. To have this big, grand
vision. Have you all heard any kind of feedback like
that?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (20:31):
We have with the pastors that we have worked with. They
describe a sense of freedom. There's a little
anecdote from the book about one of the pastors we
worked with talked about having, uh, a cake
that she was. I don't know if you're familiar with
the great British Baker.
>> Loren (20:47):
Vaguely.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (20:48):
Uh, yeah, yeah. Basically, during
the show, somebody will bring something they've made and they put it before the
judges and then the judges critique it, but. And she had
this sense of bringing this lopsided cake to the
judges, but then through the process of what
we were doing with her, had the sense that Jesus was
helping her to carry this cake. And it wasn't just her
(21:08):
effort anymore. She was being held, being
supported, and it wasn't about her vision
anymore. It was about what God wanted to do.
And she was partnering in that work.
>> Loren (21:19):
Yeah.
And I just. I love that model and that
imagery of, I mean,
if anything, just as someone who's been in that leadership role, of not
having it all on me.
So I want to move on to.
From this section of innovation and
(21:40):
to talk about.
It's hard to even say the big word that I think is so
scary, especially in mainline circles, and
that's failure. Um.
How does one become
okay with failure?
(22:02):
Uh, it's hard to even talk about that.
I'm belaboring the point here, but I think I'm belaboring it
because of the fear
and scarcity. Uh,
there's this pressure of not only do we
have small, um, resources, so
we don't have a lot to risk to begin with, but then,
(22:25):
because we have such small resources, it has to hit.
Right.
So how do we communicate with failure?
>> Dwight Schiley (22:33):
Yeah, so we talk about failure,
really, as, um,
we try to reframe that around. This is a process
of learning, and we don't know the answers ahead of time,
which means that we want to do small experiments as a way to kind
of behave our way forward. And we want those
experiments all to be failable in the sense
(22:53):
that they're not expensive. So
the kinds of experiments that we talk about in this book
are all inexpensive, small, on the
edges of the church's life. We say, don't blow up
your primary Sunday worship service with a
big experiment. Um, try small experiments on the
edges. Experiments are only a failure
if we fail to learn from them. So I love
(23:15):
Michael Moyna's statement. There's no such thing as
failure, only feedback. And so what we're
looking for is feedback. We're looking for learning. And
the journey of faithful innovation is really about developing a
congregation's capacity
in order to do learning. And learning that
is different from a kind of expert driven.
(23:37):
Here's exactly the plan of all the steps we're going to
take for the next five years. It's much more of, like,
the book of acts. I mean, the book that we've written
is really of extended meditation on acts, chapter
16, which is that wonderful story of Paul and his
companions taking a missionary journey
that goes across all kinds of
(23:57):
territory before finally ending with meeting
Lydia at Philippi. And, of course, uh,
that journey includes a lot of frustration,
redirection, dead ends,
confusion, ambiguity along the way. And we
think that's the kind of story that's more adequate to
describe this moment the churches find themselves in.
So how do we find our way, discern our
(24:19):
way, take the journey along the
way to meet Lydia?
>> Loren (24:25):
Yeah, Tessa, I'm thinking about
failure again in the context of,
uh, I worked as a chaplain in hospital, so I had to
do the company wide failure
training.
And in the hospital setting,
there was.
This obsession with failure. Not like that it was
okay, or it was obviously
(24:46):
something to be avoided, but there is this very much
importance of them trying to build a culture of,
hey, if a failure occurs, let's bring it
forward and let's talk about it. And I'm thinking that
in light of y'all's model of listen, act, share.
How much, again, y'all talk a lot about culture in
this book. Uh, how much importance is there
(25:07):
just to build that culture of
sharing when failure happens? Because, like, I'll be
frank, like, I failed, so to
speak, in some big contexts.
And to me, it felt like, you know,
like feedback, uh, was not an
option. Like, there was no learning.
I was just, like, it was just.
(25:28):
Something to be pushed, uh, to the side
and, like, left for dead, if that makes sense. Like,
how much of a culture shift needs to happen for this kind of
important learning to take place.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (25:41):
Well, Loren, I appreciate that you brought up the culture piece,
because we talk, uh, about how
it matters, what kind of a culture, uh,
you are fostering in the congregation. It needs
to be a space where people can more
easily listen to God, listen to each other.
And that takes intentionality on the part of the
(26:01):
leadership. And
I love what Dwight said, and I agree, of course, about
the redefining what failure is
when you do that work, when you redefine failure, as it's
not a failure, it's a learning opportunity, number
one, suddenly, that becomes much more easy to talk about.
So, uh, if you're doing that and you are intentionally
(26:21):
creating an environment where people can speak more freely
about the things that they're hearing from God, about
collectively, what is God calling the congregation to do?
It doesn't become as much about what are the results
of this? Did we fail? Did we succeed? It's really about what
is the journey that God has us on? What is the work that
God is doing in and through this congregation, and how is it impacting
(26:42):
the world? I feel like that's a little bit bigger of an answer than you were looking
for, but that's really the direction it goes.
>> Loren (26:47):
Yeah.
So, speaking of culture, one of the key elements,
I think, of the culture y'all are trying to
promote is really this move away from
a term that's been used, broadly speaking, the professionalization
and performative nature of clergy.
You all write, uh, in the latter half of the book about
people coming to church on Sundays expecting
(27:09):
to be spoon fed. And there really is
this expectation, I think, especially
in recent years. Uh, if you're not being fed by a
church, it's time to move on from a church.
As I understand the context of your book,
you're really encouraging this to be
a really self led, uh,
(27:31):
can't say.
The word, participatory effort,
certainly.
Um, I'm thinking about this broadly. More broadly
speaking, as I think about.
Like, um, I just had
him on.
Ted Smith and his work on the decline of institutions and the
changing models of seminary
education, um, and
credentialing. I feel like this is a win win, I guess, is what
(27:54):
I'm saying, Dwight. We have this opportunity to empower
laypeople and also take off some of the
pressure of clergy who are themselves
facing some serious headwinds.
>> Dwight Schiley (28:06):
Absolutely. So the process that we
outline is really a lay led process,
and the role of clergy in it is to make space for
it and to really serve as kind of like a group spiritual
director to help, um, the team and then
the congregation, really ask what Al Roxburgh
calls God questions, rather than just church
questions, develop that
(28:28):
capacity. And so it's not one more thing for
pastors or church staff to have to take on
while they are often struggling
to maintain the voluntary
association institutional structures in a time
when fewer people are willing to volunteer or
invest in them.
>> Loren (28:47):
Right.
>> Dwight Schiley (28:47):
And so, if, you know, Ted Smith talks quite
wonderfully about this in his, um, book, the end of
theological education, around the kind of unraveling of
this age of association model
of institutions beyond just the church.
So what we want to do is say, if you're a
pastor, if you're a staff person, your job is
(29:07):
to create this environment in which all of God's people can do
these grassroots practices that mostly
happen not in organized church
programs, but actually in the practices of
daily life, or in small teams of folks investing
presence in relationship in neighborhood spaces,
um, doing prayer walks, or small, um,
experiments in wherever they are often
(29:29):
already spending time. So it's not one more thing you're asking people
to do, to be busy at church or serve on a
committee. It's really about saying, how can you bring
a, uh, spiritual, a theological lens
to the places you're already inhabiting, and
to pay attention to how God might be leading you there.
>> Loren (29:48):
Yeah, yeah, that's helpful, Tessa. I'm thinking about,
as someone who likes.
Uh, to study family systems theory,
consensus.
Can be a dangerous thing. Uh, as I've heard it
said, the danger with consensus that kind of
empowers
just a single person or minority can really overthrow the
same the process through their,
(30:10):
uh, dysfunctional behavior. How does one
avoid
demanding? How does one create the culture
of not expecting complete
unison, uh, or to,
or conversely said there might be some.
People who are, not, to use this word,
um, mature enough, suppose, in
(30:32):
their.
Christian faith, to want to take a faithful step?
It's a complicated question, but, uh, I'm curious again,
with culture building, how does one uh, allow
for that plan for that?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (30:43):
Yeah. Uh, we allude to this a little
bit in the book, and it was part of the process that we had when
we were working with the congregations. Some of what we
proposed was finding the core leaders
that are in your congregation who are ready for this kind
of work. We had guiding teams
that the congregations assembled, and that was. It
(31:04):
was sort of a ripple effect. It starts with the core group that's
ready. And then as that work is
flourishing, as the word gets out, as people start talking about
this sort of has a grassroots ripple where other people
see, oh, there's something happening here. The movement of the
spirit is going on here. People are excited. Change is taking
place. And it's in some ways, that's the basics of
discipleship. People see that something interesting is happening in
(31:27):
this pocket of the church, and others want to get involved, and it
just grows from there. There will be people. I
want to acknowledge that, and we acknowledge this in the book. There will be people
for whom this journey is too difficult. And
there's sort of a blessing of, we see you. We
know that this isn't what you need. We're going to keep moving.
We still care about you. It's an important thing to do, but
(31:47):
it is. You have to acknowledge that not everyone's
going to be able to do this. And God will take care of the people that
we have to sort of leave by the wayside as we keep
moving forward.
>> Loren (31:57):
Yeah, that's good. Thank you for sharing that.
So I want to read this last quote
here, Dwight, just because it's so
potentially, uh, controversial, but I think important. But I want to
come from your mouth and not mine. Y'all write on
150. Some churches have adopted identities shaped
more by political and cultural tribalism
(32:18):
than by the gospel. This may bring a certain kind
of energy and engagement from some people, but it
only confirms the worst suspicions unchurched
stampers have about how compromised the
church has become. They just don't see Jesus
in it. And I think if I can speak for myself
here, I see this from churches
(32:38):
across the political spectrum. I don't want to just
say, um, it's one side or the other. I think we'd both agree
that it's, um, you know, there can be churches
of all stripes maintaining this, and I
think the recourse or the response those
churches would say is like, look how engaged people are.
Um, look how committed people are to
(33:00):
these issues.
There's really, you know, we're rallying people together.
There's an energy, there's an engagement, especially of
young people. Why do you all not, like, maybe
that's not the right word, but why do you see, like, as the
challenges in this kind of
method?
Uh.
>> Dwight Schiley (33:18):
Well, it's a great question, and I think we're in a
moment right now where in some ways, it's some
of the last gasps of Christendom, where
we have these church institutions, and we feel like
if the primary job is to get
people to participate and affiliate and
participate and be energized in the
institutions, but again, along the
(33:40):
way, we've lost. What does it mean to follow Jesus
faithfully, holistically, in daily
life as a community? And
so the secular agendas,
and you're absolutely right, these are on both sides of the
political spectrum. Um, uh, they're forms
of idolatry that can actually creep in. And you can say,
you look at the mainline. When
(34:02):
mainline churches starting in the sixties
began to lose their cultural centrality and importance
and began to decline, the turn was
often toward, well, we can be relevant if we either
embrace a kind of therapeutic catering
to individual self realization,
or a kind of often secularized
(34:22):
political activism. And on the right, you can
see there was the rise of christian nationalism is
another version of
this. But all of that is a
distraction from what it means to really follow
Jesus in a countercultural
way in the cultural moment that we find ourselves in
right now, which is the core work. I mean,
(34:44):
deepening our identity as disciples and as
communities of disciples in a
cultural context that has rejected
Christianity, um, is hard
work. It's not easy work. It's
difficult, ambiguous work that requires a lot of
careful discernment and a lot of practice. That is actually what
the church needs to be focused on. So solving
(35:07):
the institutional problem, getting people engaged,
is not solving the real underlying issue.
>> Loren (35:14):
Yeah, tessa?
Uh, obviously there's going to be some times where
church is going to feel compelled to
act out or speak out on some social
issues, I imagine, because
of believing it to be a faithful response. And
I believe that there are times.
Have you all given thought to when and where and how that
(35:36):
might be appropriate?
Hmm. Mhm.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (35:42):
That's a tough question. And that's something, that's a
question that I know every church has to wrestle with at some
point. Um, it's not something that
we particularly address in the book.
Um, and I will just
say personally, that that is something that I wonder about
myself, uh, as a faithful
follower of Jesus and also as somebody who has a leadership
(36:03):
platform. At what point do you, at what
point are you prompted to take a stand on
something. Um, the world right now,
uh, I lead the dwelling in the word
webcast every week, uh, through faith lead, which is the
scripture meditation webcast. And even just this
week we were talking about various sides of the
(36:23):
conflict in Gaza and all the pastors had a different
opinion. Here's what I will say.
I think the ability to speak to each other across difference
matters. So this doesn't really address the pulpit question, but
what this addresses is just our ability to talk to each
other and to see our shared humanity
and to really recognize that there are people that we love on
(36:43):
various sides of these conflicts.
I think that is the gift that the church can give to the world.
So, a little bit different than what you asked, but
that's just what I've been wrestling with on a similar
vein.
>> Loren (36:55):
And Dwight, as I asked that question, I'm looking at my notes of the
listen, act share model and I'm
wondering how important that
listen part can be. I
think there's so much this cultural pressure to always say
something or do something immediately.
Talk about that.
>> Dwight Schiley (37:15):
Yeah, exactly. Um, I think one of
the words that we use in the book and that I
think is worth pausing on is the word energy.
What is the source of our energy?
Um, and I think for
congregations, that source of energy should be the Holy
Spirit. Um, and
(37:36):
so I think we need to be very discerning
around adopting, um,
or embracing kind of sources of energy that
may come from other places. Now certainly the Holy
Spirit can lead us to be energized to
address injustice, um, to
engage in social, um, reform
(37:58):
and challenge social structures. I mean, that's absolutely part
of what it means to follow Jesus. Um.
>> Loren (38:03):
Mhm.
>> Dwight Schiley (38:04):
But the listen, act, share process
is helpful because it begins with let's
really listen both to scripture and to each other,
and discern and community, and then let's listen to neighbors.
I think one of the challenges in the church losing its
credibility with people in our context today is
that it's most often led with speaking
(38:25):
rather than, uh, with deep listening. And
so when you begin with deep empathetic
listening without other agendas, and then really just
to carefully hold
someone's story and receive it
and then discern, okay, well, where is this leading me? I'm
not going to try to fix this person. I'm not going to try to
come up with some grand scheme to manipulate them. I'm just
(38:47):
going to say, well, Holy Spirit, where are you leading me next?
In the same way that again, Paul and his companions were
led to this encounter with Lydia and her
companions and friends outside the gate
of Philippi, down by the river where
they had this exchange. And then Lydia's
the one who says, well, you need to come and stay at my
(39:08):
house, and invites them in, and then ends up
starting a church in her home and leading
it, and that becomes the philippian church. And
they move on after a little while. Um,
and so the agency of our
neighbors is really important in this process,
together with the agency of God, not just us kind of
(39:29):
acting on our neighbors, but really trying
to listen and then do small
experiments that are about deeper relationship.
>> Loren (39:38):
Yeah, I really appreciate that. I'm thinking.
But I'm thinking about, like,
I feel.
Like part of the challenge is culturally, like,
at least in american culture, there's this idea of, like, everything has to
be a big swing. Like, small bets.
You're not allowed to do small bets anymore. Like, everything's got to be.
Just be a big. A big. Go for it.
(39:59):
Go for the gusto,
uh, which makes it
challenging.
I want to. I want to just take a minute here, because I know we're running out of time. I
want to take a minute to talk about just
the tips and tools for churches. And maybe
if I could just say something like the workbook,
um, we did at a church I was a
(40:19):
part of. I led the dwelling in the word.
Um, on Sunday mornings.
And it was powerful. It was really
powerful. And I was amazed at
how just praying
and listening, like these simple
things, how
powerful it was. Uh, tessa, you obviously do this on
(40:42):
a daily basis or a weekly basis, it sounds like. So, anything you want to
say more about some, uh, of the tools you all
offer?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (40:50):
Yeah, well, I wanted to share that this
workbook actually came first. It came out of the
experimentation we were doing. The book we wrote
came second to sort of provide the foundation for
why we do what we do. So I
just want to share that with your listeners. That's the way that this evolved.
So the workbook was first,
and we saw the fruit,
(41:13):
uh, in dwelling in the word and many of the other. There's
tons of practices, as you know, because you've seen this. The
fruit of the practices was what really got us so
excited that, hey, we're onto something. The spirit is at work
here. Congregations are being changed.
Uh, it was extraordinary. And so we thought, we want to
share this, and then we want to share why
(41:33):
we took the direction we did and provide some undergirding
for that. So, um, can I plug.
Can I plug the work a little more here? Um, because I wanted
to let people know that they can actually preview it on
faith lead's website. And I'll make sure that you get the
URL for this, Lauren, so that you can share it with your listeners.
Uh, and I also think that they can
(41:54):
look at a complimentary chapter of the book as well.
So it's a great. The book
and the workbook together, it's sort of a complete package. And
the workbook is so practical, as Dwight has said
repeatedly. And he's right, these are simple
spirit led practices that can be adapted for
any context. We have complete instructions in there, and they
(42:14):
bear fruit because the spirit is at work through them.
>> Loren (42:17):
And I just, like, again, I feel like I need to get, like, a commission
on this book from how much I'm plugging it. But,
like. Like, I
just want to say, like, as a parent, I have young kids, I have
a job. My wife works full time. I have a lot going on.
And I think about, like, I don't need another, like,
chapter to read for.
A book group, for church.
(42:39):
Like, I don't need more to do.
This kind of thing, I think, is so powerful.
Um, because it's a. It's not something I have to
do. Uh, it goes back to a point you all have
made about just being, um. So,
again, I want to highly recommend the book. Leading faithful
innovation, following God into
(43:00):
a hopeful future. Uh, and also the workbook.
Tessa, you want to plug the workbook again?
What's the title?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (43:07):
Yeah, the workbook is called,
uh, it's the faithful innovation leader companion,
and it is available on faithlead.org.
And we'll make sure that you all have the URL so that you can check that
out, get a preview, sign up.
>> Loren (43:20):
Awesome. Well, let's take a quick break and come back with some closing
questions.
All right, we're back with Tessa and
Dwight. So thanks so much for y'all's time.
Appreciate y'all hanging with me and having this conversation.
And frankly, I'm glad I got to have this conversation, because I think I
read this book six, nine months ago. Uh, and it was
(43:41):
like, I need to try to get this to happen. So, as you can all
can tell, fan of the book, fan of the
process here. So some closing questions y'all can
take as seriously or not as you'd like to. Dwight, you
may remember these before, so you're welcome to pass if you. If
you don't want to give another answer. So, Tessa, I guess I'll start with
you. Tessa, if you're pope for a day.
All right, what do you want to do? With that day.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (44:05):
Well, and I was. This question was interesting to me, and I'm going to
assume that by pope, you mean the head of the global church. Let's
go with that. Okay. So what
I would do is I would want to help all
of the different expressions and denominations see
what truly unites us as the people of
God. I think that ecumenism
is the future of the church. And
(44:28):
so I loved how you described yourself. I think
all three of us here, uh, on this podcast today
have various backgrounds, and we work in
denominations that are a little bit different than our
histories. I think that
in the future, we, as the people of God, are going to be defined
more by what we have in common than by what separates us.
So I would work very hard on that. I don't know if I could get
(44:50):
much done in a day. But, hey, unity is a powerful
witness to the world, and the world needs that. So that's what I would
try to do.
>> Loren (44:56):
Yeah.
Boy, is that even possible? More in common than
Dwight. Anything to add there?
>> Dwight Schiley (45:05):
Yeah, I think, um, for me, it would be. I
would try to help the church and church
leaders focus on the core
challenge of learning how to
follow Jesus and the identity of being
disciples. And that
is the core thing, and it's
(45:25):
not always the core thing of how our churches spend their time. Our leaders
spend their time.
>> Loren (45:29):
Yeah. Yeah.
A theologian or historical figure you want to meet
or bring back to life.
Cassa.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (45:38):
For me, it's Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I went to
Berlin last summer. I studied at the Bonhoeffer house, and
I would want to hear from him directly about what it was
like to give up his position in New York and go back to
Germany. What would end up being the last time
he knew. Right. He knew that he might not survive, but he did it anyway.
And he actually did it because he cared so much about God's
(45:59):
church.
>> Loren (46:00):
Yeah, Dwight.
>> Dwight Schiley (46:02):
So our family was in Italy in
march of this year, and we had a chance to visit
Assisi, where I'd never been before.
Um, and I would love to
meet St. Francis and
to have the spirit of
simplicity that Francis brought in a
time where there were a lot of distractions
(46:25):
for the church into this moment, because we have
so many distractions. And Francis is
someone who had a pure,
beautiful, pure vision,
um, of following Jesus in
complex times.
>> Loren (46:40):
Yeah. Yeah. Um.
Let's do this. Tessa, you answer this. What do you think history
will remember from our current place in time?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (46:50):
I love this question. And, Loren, I think we are on the
cusp of something really new. I feel like we are on the cusp
of maybe a second reformation. Um, I know there's been
many reformations in between, but something really big
we know, and we talk about this in the book, that the church as it currently
exists, is failing to connect with people. And we know that
change needs to and is happening. So right
(47:11):
now, I think the church is at a stage where we should be listening to the
spirit and looking for wisdom from the past,
looking for wisdom from the early church.
And I think we're going to look back and see that the people who are at the
forefront of this movement were the people who were looking at
how spiritual formation actually works, how we
actually make disciples, how we actually follow the way of
Jesus, how we actually live as Jesus
(47:34):
wants us to live, and then the
people who are taking that and making their churches
incubators of that work. So I think we're going to look
back, see that this season of the church's history
was a formative point, and we're going to look totally different in the
future, but different in a way that we are
returning to God's mission.
>> Loren (47:53):
Yeah, I like that.
I like that Dwight hopes for the future of
Christianity.
M well, if
you look at what's.
>> Dwight Schiley (48:01):
Happening in the global majority church,
there is so much amazing life
and vitality and growth and
possibility. And I think that, to me,
is very hopeful to see
how even as in the west,
as we still kind of get
(48:21):
ourselves out from underneath the weight
of Christendom and of a culture
that seeks the good without God, that the
Holy Spirit, um, is renewing
the church, uh, in. In the great majority of
the world, in cultures that are not westernized.
And we have so much to learn from that.
>> Loren (48:42):
Yeah. Right. Especially, like, how to. How to be christian without
being western. Right. Like, if anything, we can
learn that.
Where can share, if you all would.
Where can people can connect with you and, uh, connect with
the book? Or I guess. I guess, Tessa, you've already plugged that. So if, uh,
you all want to share, like, how we can connect with you. You
(49:03):
all.
Dwight, start.
>> Dwight Schiley (49:06):
Yeah, um, so, again, faithfully.org dot. There's a
lot of, um, things there, and my
own personal website is dwightshiely.com
dot. Uh, that last name is spelled z
s c h e I l e.
>> Loren (49:21):
Great, Tessa.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (49:25):
I'll point everybody to faithlead.org as well. And
I've actually got a piece on there about Lydia, uh, from
acts that accompanies our book. So, uh, there's a few articles
on there. I've even got one about, uh, my trip to Berlin.
It's a Dietrich Bonhoeffer article, but my personal
website is practicesforlife.org
dot, and I would love to hear from some of your
(49:45):
listeners. So if you want to come find me and send me a note,
I'd love to talk with you.
>> Loren (49:49):
Yeah, well, thank you all so much for hanging with
me and, uh, engaging in this
conversation. Really appreciate the book and hope it's
helpful to churches and leaders across the
country and frankly, across the world. So I always leave folks with
a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you.
>> Paul (50:07):
Thanks for joining us on the future Christian podcast.
To learn more about Loren or the podcast,
visit future christian.com.
One more thing before you go, do us a favor
and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're
feeling especially generous, leave a review.
It really helps us get the word out to more people. About the
(50:27):
podcast the
Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
arts and resonate media. Our episodes were
mixed by Danny Burton and the production support is
provided by Paul Romaglevitt. Thanks
and go in peace.
Um.
>> Paul (00:05):
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church into the 21st century.
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
(00:27):
Now here's your host. Lauren Richmond, Junior.
>> Loren (00:33):
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today we're
welcoming Tessa Pinkstaff and Dwight Schiley.
Tessa is the founder of Practices for Life, a
ministry that invites people to explore christian practices
as a way to experience God's presence.
She currently leads the weekly dwelling in the word online
gathering and serves as a project consultant
for Luther Seminary's faith lead.
(00:55):
Tessa is a co author of leading faithful
Innovation, following God into a hopeful
future. She has a Master of Arts in ministry
from Bethel Seminary and is in the process
of becoming certified as a spiritual director.
Dwight is vice president of innovation and
professor of congregational mission and leadership at
Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota.
(01:18):
He is also a co author of leading faithful
Innovation and has authored several other
books. A graduate of Stanford
University, Yale University, and Luther
Seminary, he is an ordained episcopal
priest and has served congregations in Minnesota,
Virginia, and Connecticut. Dwight's
experience growing up in a secular home in California
(01:39):
has shaped his commitment to helping the church cultivate
christian community with neighbors in today's changing
world.
Let's welcome Tessa and Dwight to the show.
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Loren Richmond
Junior. Today I'm, um, pleased to be joined by
(02:02):
Tessa Pinkstaff and Dwight Shiley.
So, thank you all so much for being here. We're here to talk about their book,
leading faithful innovation, which we'll get to here
shortly. But before we jump into that, uh, Tessa
and Dwight, anything else you want to say about yourselves for our
listeners?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (02:20):
Yeah, I'll start. Uh, I want to share that.
What I most love about, uh, the work
that I do is those moments when
someone's understanding of who God is moves from their head
down to their heart. And sometimes you can actually see that
shift happening, because oftentimes there's strong
emotion. Um, so what I'm talking about is a person going
from an intellectual way of relating to God to this
(02:42):
personal, relational experience of God. It is such a
powerful thing. Uh, and I want to thank you for having
us today. It's a pleasure to be here.
>> Loren (02:50):
Thank you. Yeah.
>> Dwight Zscheile (02:53):
And, um, also thanks for having us. For me,
my passion is really about helping local
churches adapt, uh, to connect
with neighbors and connect with God more
deeply in today's changing world. And that really comes out
of, um, my own experience growing up outside the
church.
>> Loren (03:12):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that, if you would,
again, also, uh, share y'all's faith journeys. Kind
of, uh, what that looked like in the past and what that looks like
today. Tessa, you're welcome to kick off again
there.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (03:24):
Yeah, thanks. Well, I became a
Christian in college, and when I first started
my faith journey, my faith revolved around having the right
answers, knowing the right doctrine, behaving the right way.
It was all about being right. And there wasn't a lot of room for much
else because I was first learning what it meant to be a
Christian. But that's very
(03:44):
distinct from my journey now. Um,
it's evolved quite a bit over time, and I'd say now it's more
about, um, it's about embracing the mystery
that God has, both knowable through scripture and through the revelation
of Jesus. But God is also unknowable
because God is so far outside our finite human
understanding. I love that.
(04:05):
What that means is there's always more to discover
about God, more to explore. And so for me now, it's
less about being right and it's more about just being.
The presence of God is what has become core for me.
>> Loren (04:17):
That's great, Dwight. Yeah.
>> Dwight Schiley (04:20):
So, as I mentioned, I grew up, um, in a secular
home, grew up in California in a, ah, context
where Christianity's never been
particularly well established. And going to church is
kind of a really countercultural and odd thing to do. And so,
um, when I came to faith as a young adult, I found
myself going through a variety of different christian
(04:41):
traditions, um, just really having a lot
of powerful experiences in those. And eventually
settled in anglicanism and was
ordained, um, been ordained in the episcopal
church, um, for quite a while.
Um, and so for me,
I think of myself as sort of having an
evangelical heart and an ecumenical soul, you might
(05:03):
say.
>> Loren (05:05):
Yeah, I like that.
Often, um, say I have a brain of a mainliner in
the heart of an evangelical. So I think I
can relate there. Share, if you
all would, uh, something, a spiritual
practice that's been meaningful or fulfilling your soul of
late.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (05:24):
Loren, I love this question. Uh, and I want
to say that scripture meditation is the practice
that's hugely important for me. We call it dwelling in
the word in the book, and that's how we practice
it through faith lead. But what it actually is is it's
an adapted or a simplified form of lectio divina.
And, uh, it's something that has
(05:45):
really nourished me in my spiritual journey,
and it's a practice that the more you do it, the more depth and
riches come out of it. Um, the other one that I
love, uh, that I feel like is something that
is a little unique to me, is that I'm really into silence and
solitude. Uh, silent prayer and regular silent
retreats are an important part of my journey. And then
the last one I want to say is, uh, simplicity. Um, that's
(06:08):
a, uh, practice of holding our possessions loosely,
but also being honest in how we communicate with other people.
So, like, if I don't want to do something, the practice of
simplicity invites me to let my yes be yes and
my no be no. Uh, I love that Jesus gave
us some good wisdom there.
>> Loren (06:24):
Yeah.
So I guess if you're just done with this, right, you can just be like,
Loren, I'm done and you're just going to sign out, right?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (06:31):
No, no, that is not good. Today, my yes was
a yes. I'm here for a reason.
>> Dwight Schiley (06:38):
Well, for me, the spiritual practice of simplicity has
actually been really important in this season of life. Um, my wife and I
are empty nesters and we're in the process of
downsizing out of our home we've lived in for
eleven years into a much smaller place, which
is great and has involved the
purgation of a lot of stuff and really kind
of thinking about what do we really need to carry forward.
(07:01):
And having been through the process of
um, trying to help parents, um, who are
quite a bit older, sort of deal with their stuff
that's accumulated, um, it's been actually a
powerful thing to release
things and just give things away so that someone
else, um, can use them.
>> Loren (07:22):
Those are great. Thank you both for sharing all that.
So I'm looking forward to, I'm excited to talk
about this. Um, Dwight, along
with Tessa and Michael, was not unable to be here.
Michael Binder, is it?
>> Dwight Schiley (07:36):
Binder.
>> Loren (07:36):
Binder.
Excuse me. Michael Binder. Uh, are
the authors of following God into a hopeful.
Excuse me, I'm saying this wrong. Leading faithful innovation, following God
into a hopeful future. This is a book and I was trying to look
around somewhere. I have the workbook that goes with
it on my desk, but I must have it
buried under my other piles of books. So there's a book.
(07:57):
And then y'all came out with a workbook, which again I thought
was great.
I used both,
um, in churches I've served.
And I just frankly, was giving a
presentation at a conference
this past week and I shared a story
that we may touch on here of the prayer
(08:17):
walk. And let me tell you that story just
it hits wherever you share that, because it's such a powerful
story. But, uh, before we get into the.
Details,
um, just kind of talk about.
What brought the book, about what inspired the book, that
sort of thing.
>> Dwight Schiley (08:34):
Well, so, Loren, this book is the result of, um,
us working with our team at Luther
Seminary, and even before that, with other
partners, with hundreds of congregations, directly or
indirectly, over a number of years, where we've
been trying to help them adapt faithfully
to the changing context in which they find themselves,
(08:54):
and particularly to address
what we think of as a core challenge of learning how to
connect more deeply with God, each other within
the congregation, and then with their neighbors. And
so the book really
was, um, in our attempt to put into
relatively, I hope, accessible form with lots
of stories, um, the learnings
(09:17):
that we've had, um, over
years of working, um, with a lot of congregations trying to
take this journey.
>> Loren (09:26):
Yeah.
And I think it's so helpful. Um, so, uh,
I want to just kind of like, read through some quotes here, because,
again, there's so much from this book that really
stuck out to me and hear y'all's responses.
So, uh, Tessa, this one really off the
bat, I think I found this really quite meaningful.
And I think this is undergirded
(09:47):
by what I am seeing is this
implicit belief that church matters. You all write
that the church is the bearer of God's redemptive mission for the
world. And at least in some of the circles I run in,
it seems like there's this more and more.
I'm not sure what word to say, but this idea that church
doesn't really matter or is a secondary importance.
(10:08):
And, uh, you all seem to have a very foundational belief in the
importance of the church. Do you want to talk more about that?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (10:15):
Yeah. And I'm glad that you brought that quote. It's
so important. We, um, believe that the church is
and should be a place where people can actually
encounter Jesus. And why does that matter?
It matters because encounters with Jesus and this is
the living Christ, those are the things that transform
us. That's what makes it possible for us to bear fruits
(10:36):
of the spirit and then to actually do the work of
extending God's grace and mercy into the world.
We know that God's mission is for the world to be redeemed,
and the church is the mechanism through which God does
that. And a lot of what we talk about in the book
is how, when the church doesn't recognize that it has that
role, then it becomes. It can be just a
(10:56):
private club, for example, of programs and social
gatherings. And it's based on other
things. But what it really is is it's an
agency where God's ambassadors are nurtured and trained
and sent out. And that is why.
That's why the church matters. And that's also why
it matters that we make sure that the church is
(11:16):
an institution that is really fulfilling its mission.
That's what it exists for.
>> Loren (11:21):
Yeah, I want to stay on this point, maybe just for my own
sake.
Again, I shared
that story, a story.
I referenced from y'all's book in a, uh, little conference I was
speaking at this week. And, I mean, I pretty much
said those same words myself. Like, I believe that
the church is the. I didn't use a word for word, but
(11:42):
the similar language, the bearer of God's redemptive mission for the
world. And I think the church is meant to be more
than just a community center. Uh, kind of like what
you alluded to, Tessa. Uh. Uh,
Dwight, do you have any thoughts you want to add to this
point?
Yeah.
>> Dwight Schiley (11:58):
Well, so I always appreciate Leslie Newbigen's
statement that the church is the hermeneutic of
the gospel. The local church is the hermeneutic of the gospel. It's
the place where the world looks to see the
gospel embodied and interpreted
in real life circumstances. And, of course, there's
all kinds of ambiguity of that, because humans are
(12:18):
sinful and the church is both holy and human.
Um, but I do think that the power
of a local community, of people who are living
and practicing the way of Jesus is
essential. And I think the challenges that
coming out of the long period of Christendom in the west
at least, we have a lot
of other purposes that have
(12:41):
kind of affixed themselves, if you will, to many
local churches that end up predominating.
Um, what the main focus is, rather than
just this participation and witness to
God's redemptive mission in Christ.
>> Loren (12:56):
Yeah. And I want to speak, I guess,
as a pastor, former pastor, former church leader. This
is, I think, is what makes.
It so hard to be a
leader.
Is that these are good things. We're not
saying these are bad things.
Or unimportant things, but
I, uh, use.
The reference of the tail wagging the dog.
(13:17):
Sometimes some of these good things can get in the way
of the ultimate purpose.
So let's talk about this
idea that.
You all have of faithful
innovation. And I'm looking over to my stack
of books. Uh, I think I've given away several books that,
(13:38):
uh, I've read that have been good books on this topic
of innovation in the church. So, uh, Dwight,
just give some terms there. By what you mean
by the term faithful.
Innovation, yes.
>> Dwight Schiley (13:50):
So the word innovation is one we have to use really carefully,
because it's liable to be
misunderstood, particularly if what
we mean by innovation is
invention, or simply the church's embrace
of the latest kind of
modern techniques to try to turn around the
institution. Um, and so
(14:11):
we don't mean that at all. That word faithful is really important.
But also, how we define innovation
comes from, um, some innovation scholars, Denning
and Dunham, in their book innovators way, and they say,
quite simply, innovation is the adoption of a new practice
in a community. And in our case, with the church,
often that means the adoption of ancient practices that we've actually
(14:31):
lost along the way. So I would just want to make very clear
to your listeners here that, um, when we use the word
innovation, what we're not saying is the
church needs to grasp after one
more organizational technique
to save itself. We think
that's actually quite wrong. And in fact, the journey that we
(14:51):
describe is really a journey, again, of connecting
more deeply with God, each other, and your neighbors
through simplification of church life, and
a, ah, refocusing on practices
that help people go deeper in their life with
God and participate more deeply in what God's doing in
the neighborhoods.
>> Loren (15:12):
Yeah, it's funny because innovation is quite the
obsession right now. I feel like in mainline churches, and
it's at least as I see it,
it's not about the adoption of new or ancient practices.
It's about trying new things. Like, I'm literally, I won't
say, uh, from where it's from, but I was thinking,
like, I'm literally wearing a,
(15:33):
a shirt on some innovation conference from
a certain mainline denomination that was sent to me.
Um, and then im kind of chuckling because I think
hes a colleague of yours, uh, the
book churches and the crisis of innovation.
I got that book thinking it was a church innovation
book, and its anything but that. Um, so,
(15:54):
Tessa, anything you want to.
Add there about this,
uh, this different.
Way of thinking about innovation, not as magic
bullets or trying the latest gizmo?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (16:07):
Yeah, thanks, Lauren. And I want to
affirm that I love that Dwight mentioned the ancient spiritual practices,
because I do think that is the key to what we're talking about
here. I also want to add that the pattern that
we describe in the book is listen, act,
share. And what we mean by that is
listening for the movement, the movement and guidance of the Holy
Spirit, listening to our neighbors and about
(16:29):
their hopes and dreams and fears, what keeps
them up at night. And then from that
listening, you adopt
simple experiments. Action learning experiments is
what we call them. And that's based on what you heard. And you try
some things in your context. So you are trying something new, but
it's based on this tradition. It's based on what's come before. It's
(16:49):
based on the learning and the listening that you're doing. And
then from there, you talk about what
you learned and you share that with the community. And then that
discernment process continues.
Uh, it's iterative. And
we find that that pattern was extremely
effective in the work that Dwight described at the beginning that
(17:10):
we did with the congregations and the churches, and even
at the judicatory level as well.
>> Loren (17:16):
I love that monarch and listen, act, share. It's so
simple.
Go ahead.
>> Dwight Schiley (17:20):
Yeah, I'd love to just add a little, kind of thicken this up because I
think this is really important for us to think about. What do
we mean by innovation? Um, so one of the
great core heresies of
modernity, western modernity, is that humans can save
themselves. And
so what we're trying to do in this process, through these
(17:41):
practices of listening, acting and sharing, is
actually to subvert that. And we subvert it
by introducing very simple,
actionable, accessible things
that everyday people, ordinary people and
congregations can try on
that give them experiences
of naming God's activity in their lives
(18:02):
and beginning to name God's activity in the neighborhood.
And so what we're doing is actually
subverting the kind of we have to
fix it ourselves cultural framework that we're
shaped in, in the west. Um, but we're
doing it kind of indirectly, if you will.
>> Loren (18:21):
Yeah, it's such a different
model and mindset, uh, to me. I think that's what
makes it so powerful. Um, so
kind of to that point, y'all write,
uh, on page 16. Faithfully innovative
leadership is less about managing what is truly God's work,
and more about cultivating an environment in which
(18:41):
God acts, which again, I think speaks to Dwight, what you were just
saying. And Dwight,
I use a highlighting app on my phone and I wrote a
note here. I cant remember if this was what was in
the text, but im reading it from my phone. But I wrote a note not
casting vision. And I listen
to all, or uh, not all, but several of the
evangelical podcasts where its all about
(19:04):
the lead pastor casting a big vision.
And ill confess, I think sometimes that matters. But I
think what y'all are saying really strikes
me as different, yet powerful. Uh, so, Dwight,
why don't you start with that again? This
kind of mind shift there.
Yeah.
>> Dwight Schiley (19:22):
So we want local churches
and all of their people to recognize that the Holy Spirit
should be the primary leader of the church. And if
that's the case, the Holy Spirit works among the whole people of God. And
so leadership is really, really important
to create an environment in which,
um, we collectively can attend
(19:43):
to and name and wrestle with and
interpret how the Holy Spirit is at work in
our own lives, personally, in the life of the community, and then in the life
of the neighborhood as well. So I think
about leaders as being those who sort of weave
together and interpret and
articulate the vision that God has given to the whole people
of God. But it's a bottom up rather than
(20:05):
a top down kind of approach.
>> Loren (20:08):
Yeah, tess. And I'm, um, thinking about this just again, as
someone who's been a leader.
In that context, and I'm curious if.
You'Ve heard this kind of feedback from other pastors and leaders, like
the.
What's the word?
I'm thinking of, like, the lack of pressure, the kind of.
The release of pressure to have. To have this big, grand
vision. Have you all heard any kind of feedback like
that?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (20:31):
We have with the pastors that we have worked with. They
describe a sense of freedom. There's a little
anecdote from the book about one of the pastors we
worked with talked about having, uh, a cake
that she was. I don't know if you're familiar with
the great British Baker.
>> Loren (20:47):
Vaguely.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (20:48):
Uh, yeah, yeah. Basically, during
the show, somebody will bring something they've made and they put it before the
judges and then the judges critique it, but. And she had
this sense of bringing this lopsided cake to the
judges, but then through the process of what
we were doing with her, had the sense that Jesus was
helping her to carry this cake. And it wasn't just her
(21:08):
effort anymore. She was being held, being
supported, and it wasn't about her vision
anymore. It was about what God wanted to do.
And she was partnering in that work.
>> Loren (21:19):
Yeah.
And I just. I love that model and that
imagery of, I mean,
if anything, just as someone who's been in that leadership role, of not
having it all on me.
So I want to move on to.
From this section of innovation and
(21:40):
to talk about.
It's hard to even say the big word that I think is so
scary, especially in mainline circles, and
that's failure. Um.
How does one become
okay with failure?
(22:02):
Uh, it's hard to even talk about that.
I'm belaboring the point here, but I think I'm belaboring it
because of the fear
and scarcity. Uh,
there's this pressure of not only do we
have small, um, resources, so
we don't have a lot to risk to begin with, but then,
(22:25):
because we have such small resources, it has to hit.
Right.
So how do we communicate with failure?
>> Dwight Schiley (22:33):
Yeah, so we talk about failure,
really, as, um,
we try to reframe that around. This is a process
of learning, and we don't know the answers ahead of time,
which means that we want to do small experiments as a way to kind
of behave our way forward. And we want those
experiments all to be failable in the sense
(22:53):
that they're not expensive. So
the kinds of experiments that we talk about in this book
are all inexpensive, small, on the
edges of the church's life. We say, don't blow up
your primary Sunday worship service with a
big experiment. Um, try small experiments on the
edges. Experiments are only a failure
if we fail to learn from them. So I love
(23:15):
Michael Moyna's statement. There's no such thing as
failure, only feedback. And so what we're
looking for is feedback. We're looking for learning. And
the journey of faithful innovation is really about developing a
congregation's capacity
in order to do learning. And learning that
is different from a kind of expert driven.
(23:37):
Here's exactly the plan of all the steps we're going to
take for the next five years. It's much more of, like,
the book of acts. I mean, the book that we've written
is really of extended meditation on acts, chapter
16, which is that wonderful story of Paul and his
companions taking a missionary journey
that goes across all kinds of
(23:57):
territory before finally ending with meeting
Lydia at Philippi. And, of course, uh,
that journey includes a lot of frustration,
redirection, dead ends,
confusion, ambiguity along the way. And we
think that's the kind of story that's more adequate to
describe this moment the churches find themselves in.
So how do we find our way, discern our
(24:19):
way, take the journey along the
way to meet Lydia?
>> Loren (24:25):
Yeah, Tessa, I'm thinking about
failure again in the context of,
uh, I worked as a chaplain in hospital, so I had to
do the company wide failure
training.
And in the hospital setting,
there was.
This obsession with failure. Not like that it was
okay, or it was obviously
(24:46):
something to be avoided, but there is this very much
importance of them trying to build a culture of,
hey, if a failure occurs, let's bring it
forward and let's talk about it. And I'm thinking that
in light of y'all's model of listen, act, share.
How much, again, y'all talk a lot about culture in
this book. Uh, how much importance is there
(25:07):
just to build that culture of
sharing when failure happens? Because, like, I'll be
frank, like, I failed, so to
speak, in some big contexts.
And to me, it felt like, you know,
like feedback, uh, was not an
option. Like, there was no learning.
I was just, like, it was just.
(25:28):
Something to be pushed, uh, to the side
and, like, left for dead, if that makes sense. Like,
how much of a culture shift needs to happen for this kind of
important learning to take place.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (25:41):
Well, Loren, I appreciate that you brought up the culture piece,
because we talk, uh, about how
it matters, what kind of a culture, uh,
you are fostering in the congregation. It needs
to be a space where people can more
easily listen to God, listen to each other.
And that takes intentionality on the part of the
(26:01):
leadership. And
I love what Dwight said, and I agree, of course, about
the redefining what failure is
when you do that work, when you redefine failure, as it's
not a failure, it's a learning opportunity, number
one, suddenly, that becomes much more easy to talk about.
So, uh, if you're doing that and you are intentionally
(26:21):
creating an environment where people can speak more freely
about the things that they're hearing from God, about
collectively, what is God calling the congregation to do?
It doesn't become as much about what are the results
of this? Did we fail? Did we succeed? It's really about what
is the journey that God has us on? What is the work that
God is doing in and through this congregation, and how is it impacting
(26:42):
the world? I feel like that's a little bit bigger of an answer than you were looking
for, but that's really the direction it goes.
>> Loren (26:47):
Yeah.
So, speaking of culture, one of the key elements,
I think, of the culture y'all are trying to
promote is really this move away from
a term that's been used, broadly speaking, the professionalization
and performative nature of clergy.
You all write, uh, in the latter half of the book about
people coming to church on Sundays expecting
(27:09):
to be spoon fed. And there really is
this expectation, I think, especially
in recent years. Uh, if you're not being fed by a
church, it's time to move on from a church.
As I understand the context of your book,
you're really encouraging this to be
a really self led, uh,
(27:31):
can't say.
The word, participatory effort,
certainly.
Um, I'm thinking about this broadly. More broadly
speaking, as I think about.
Like, um, I just had
him on.
Ted Smith and his work on the decline of institutions and the
changing models of seminary
education, um, and
credentialing. I feel like this is a win win, I guess, is what
(27:54):
I'm saying, Dwight. We have this opportunity to empower
laypeople and also take off some of the
pressure of clergy who are themselves
facing some serious headwinds.
>> Dwight Schiley (28:06):
Absolutely. So the process that we
outline is really a lay led process,
and the role of clergy in it is to make space for
it and to really serve as kind of like a group spiritual
director to help, um, the team and then
the congregation, really ask what Al Roxburgh
calls God questions, rather than just church
questions, develop that
(28:28):
capacity. And so it's not one more thing for
pastors or church staff to have to take on
while they are often struggling
to maintain the voluntary
association institutional structures in a time
when fewer people are willing to volunteer or
invest in them.
>> Loren (28:47):
Right.
>> Dwight Schiley (28:47):
And so, if, you know, Ted Smith talks quite
wonderfully about this in his, um, book, the end of
theological education, around the kind of unraveling of
this age of association model
of institutions beyond just the church.
So what we want to do is say, if you're a
pastor, if you're a staff person, your job is
(29:07):
to create this environment in which all of God's people can do
these grassroots practices that mostly
happen not in organized church
programs, but actually in the practices of
daily life, or in small teams of folks investing
presence in relationship in neighborhood spaces,
um, doing prayer walks, or small, um,
experiments in wherever they are often
(29:29):
already spending time. So it's not one more thing you're asking people
to do, to be busy at church or serve on a
committee. It's really about saying, how can you bring
a, uh, spiritual, a theological lens
to the places you're already inhabiting, and
to pay attention to how God might be leading you there.
>> Loren (29:48):
Yeah, yeah, that's helpful, Tessa. I'm thinking about,
as someone who likes.
Uh, to study family systems theory,
consensus.
Can be a dangerous thing. Uh, as I've heard it
said, the danger with consensus that kind of
empowers
just a single person or minority can really overthrow the
same the process through their,
(30:10):
uh, dysfunctional behavior. How does one
avoid
demanding? How does one create the culture
of not expecting complete
unison, uh, or to,
or conversely said there might be some.
People who are, not, to use this word,
um, mature enough, suppose, in
(30:32):
their.
Christian faith, to want to take a faithful step?
It's a complicated question, but, uh, I'm curious again,
with culture building, how does one uh, allow
for that plan for that?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (30:43):
Yeah. Uh, we allude to this a little
bit in the book, and it was part of the process that we had when
we were working with the congregations. Some of what we
proposed was finding the core leaders
that are in your congregation who are ready for this kind
of work. We had guiding teams
that the congregations assembled, and that was. It
(31:04):
was sort of a ripple effect. It starts with the core group that's
ready. And then as that work is
flourishing, as the word gets out, as people start talking about
this sort of has a grassroots ripple where other people
see, oh, there's something happening here. The movement of the
spirit is going on here. People are excited. Change is taking
place. And it's in some ways, that's the basics of
discipleship. People see that something interesting is happening in
(31:27):
this pocket of the church, and others want to get involved, and it
just grows from there. There will be people. I
want to acknowledge that, and we acknowledge this in the book. There will be people
for whom this journey is too difficult. And
there's sort of a blessing of, we see you. We
know that this isn't what you need. We're going to keep moving.
We still care about you. It's an important thing to do, but
(31:47):
it is. You have to acknowledge that not everyone's
going to be able to do this. And God will take care of the people that
we have to sort of leave by the wayside as we keep
moving forward.
>> Loren (31:57):
Yeah, that's good. Thank you for sharing that.
So I want to read this last quote
here, Dwight, just because it's so
potentially, uh, controversial, but I think important. But I want to
come from your mouth and not mine. Y'all write on
150. Some churches have adopted identities shaped
more by political and cultural tribalism
(32:18):
than by the gospel. This may bring a certain kind
of energy and engagement from some people, but it
only confirms the worst suspicions unchurched
stampers have about how compromised the
church has become. They just don't see Jesus
in it. And I think if I can speak for myself
here, I see this from churches
(32:38):
across the political spectrum. I don't want to just
say, um, it's one side or the other. I think we'd both agree
that it's, um, you know, there can be churches
of all stripes maintaining this, and I
think the recourse or the response those
churches would say is like, look how engaged people are.
Um, look how committed people are to
(33:00):
these issues.
There's really, you know, we're rallying people together.
There's an energy, there's an engagement, especially of
young people. Why do you all not, like, maybe
that's not the right word, but why do you see, like, as the
challenges in this kind of
method?
Uh.
>> Dwight Schiley (33:18):
Well, it's a great question, and I think we're in a
moment right now where in some ways, it's some
of the last gasps of Christendom, where
we have these church institutions, and we feel like
if the primary job is to get
people to participate and affiliate and
participate and be energized in the
institutions, but again, along the
(33:40):
way, we've lost. What does it mean to follow Jesus
faithfully, holistically, in daily
life as a community? And
so the secular agendas,
and you're absolutely right, these are on both sides of the
political spectrum. Um, uh, they're forms
of idolatry that can actually creep in. And you can say,
you look at the mainline. When
(34:02):
mainline churches starting in the sixties
began to lose their cultural centrality and importance
and began to decline, the turn was
often toward, well, we can be relevant if we either
embrace a kind of therapeutic catering
to individual self realization,
or a kind of often secularized
(34:22):
political activism. And on the right, you can
see there was the rise of christian nationalism is
another version of
this. But all of that is a
distraction from what it means to really follow
Jesus in a countercultural
way in the cultural moment that we find ourselves in
right now, which is the core work. I mean,
(34:44):
deepening our identity as disciples and as
communities of disciples in a
cultural context that has rejected
Christianity, um, is hard
work. It's not easy work. It's
difficult, ambiguous work that requires a lot of
careful discernment and a lot of practice. That is actually what
the church needs to be focused on. So solving
(35:07):
the institutional problem, getting people engaged,
is not solving the real underlying issue.
>> Loren (35:14):
Yeah, tessa?
Uh, obviously there's going to be some times where
church is going to feel compelled to
act out or speak out on some social
issues, I imagine, because
of believing it to be a faithful response. And
I believe that there are times.
Have you all given thought to when and where and how that
(35:36):
might be appropriate?
Hmm. Mhm.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (35:42):
That's a tough question. And that's something, that's a
question that I know every church has to wrestle with at some
point. Um, it's not something that
we particularly address in the book.
Um, and I will just
say personally, that that is something that I wonder about
myself, uh, as a faithful
follower of Jesus and also as somebody who has a leadership
(36:03):
platform. At what point do you, at what
point are you prompted to take a stand on
something. Um, the world right now,
uh, I lead the dwelling in the word
webcast every week, uh, through faith lead, which is the
scripture meditation webcast. And even just this
week we were talking about various sides of the
(36:23):
conflict in Gaza and all the pastors had a different
opinion. Here's what I will say.
I think the ability to speak to each other across difference
matters. So this doesn't really address the pulpit question, but
what this addresses is just our ability to talk to each
other and to see our shared humanity
and to really recognize that there are people that we love on
(36:43):
various sides of these conflicts.
I think that is the gift that the church can give to the world.
So, a little bit different than what you asked, but
that's just what I've been wrestling with on a similar
vein.
>> Loren (36:55):
And Dwight, as I asked that question, I'm looking at my notes of the
listen, act share model and I'm
wondering how important that
listen part can be. I
think there's so much this cultural pressure to always say
something or do something immediately.
Talk about that.
>> Dwight Schiley (37:15):
Yeah, exactly. Um, I think one of
the words that we use in the book and that I
think is worth pausing on is the word energy.
What is the source of our energy?
Um, and I think for
congregations, that source of energy should be the Holy
Spirit. Um, and
(37:36):
so I think we need to be very discerning
around adopting, um,
or embracing kind of sources of energy that
may come from other places. Now certainly the Holy
Spirit can lead us to be energized to
address injustice, um, to
engage in social, um, reform
(37:58):
and challenge social structures. I mean, that's absolutely part
of what it means to follow Jesus. Um.
>> Loren (38:03):
Mhm.
>> Dwight Schiley (38:04):
But the listen, act, share process
is helpful because it begins with let's
really listen both to scripture and to each other,
and discern and community, and then let's listen to neighbors.
I think one of the challenges in the church losing its
credibility with people in our context today is
that it's most often led with speaking
(38:25):
rather than, uh, with deep listening. And
so when you begin with deep empathetic
listening without other agendas, and then really just
to carefully hold
someone's story and receive it
and then discern, okay, well, where is this leading me? I'm
not going to try to fix this person. I'm not going to try to
come up with some grand scheme to manipulate them. I'm just
(38:47):
going to say, well, Holy Spirit, where are you leading me next?
In the same way that again, Paul and his companions were
led to this encounter with Lydia and her
companions and friends outside the gate
of Philippi, down by the river where
they had this exchange. And then Lydia's
the one who says, well, you need to come and stay at my
(39:08):
house, and invites them in, and then ends up
starting a church in her home and leading
it, and that becomes the philippian church. And
they move on after a little while. Um,
and so the agency of our
neighbors is really important in this process,
together with the agency of God, not just us kind of
(39:29):
acting on our neighbors, but really trying
to listen and then do small
experiments that are about deeper relationship.
>> Loren (39:38):
Yeah, I really appreciate that. I'm thinking.
But I'm thinking about, like,
I feel.
Like part of the challenge is culturally, like,
at least in american culture, there's this idea of, like, everything has to
be a big swing. Like, small bets.
You're not allowed to do small bets anymore. Like, everything's got to be.
Just be a big. A big. Go for it.
(39:59):
Go for the gusto,
uh, which makes it
challenging.
I want to. I want to just take a minute here, because I know we're running out of time. I
want to take a minute to talk about just
the tips and tools for churches. And maybe
if I could just say something like the workbook,
um, we did at a church I was a
(40:19):
part of. I led the dwelling in the word.
Um, on Sunday mornings.
And it was powerful. It was really
powerful. And I was amazed at
how just praying
and listening, like these simple
things, how
powerful it was. Uh, tessa, you obviously do this on
(40:42):
a daily basis or a weekly basis, it sounds like. So, anything you want to
say more about some, uh, of the tools you all
offer?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (40:50):
Yeah, well, I wanted to share that this
workbook actually came first. It came out of the
experimentation we were doing. The book we wrote
came second to sort of provide the foundation for
why we do what we do. So I
just want to share that with your listeners. That's the way that this evolved.
So the workbook was first,
and we saw the fruit,
(41:13):
uh, in dwelling in the word and many of the other. There's
tons of practices, as you know, because you've seen this. The
fruit of the practices was what really got us so
excited that, hey, we're onto something. The spirit is at work
here. Congregations are being changed.
Uh, it was extraordinary. And so we thought, we want to
share this, and then we want to share why
(41:33):
we took the direction we did and provide some undergirding
for that. So, um, can I plug.
Can I plug the work a little more here? Um, because I wanted
to let people know that they can actually preview it on
faith lead's website. And I'll make sure that you get the
URL for this, Lauren, so that you can share it with your listeners.
Uh, and I also think that they can
(41:54):
look at a complimentary chapter of the book as well.
So it's a great. The book
and the workbook together, it's sort of a complete package. And
the workbook is so practical, as Dwight has said
repeatedly. And he's right, these are simple
spirit led practices that can be adapted for
any context. We have complete instructions in there, and they
(42:14):
bear fruit because the spirit is at work through them.
>> Loren (42:17):
And I just, like, again, I feel like I need to get, like, a commission
on this book from how much I'm plugging it. But,
like. Like, I
just want to say, like, as a parent, I have young kids, I have
a job. My wife works full time. I have a lot going on.
And I think about, like, I don't need another, like,
chapter to read for.
A book group, for church.
(42:39):
Like, I don't need more to do.
This kind of thing, I think, is so powerful.
Um, because it's a. It's not something I have to
do. Uh, it goes back to a point you all have
made about just being, um. So,
again, I want to highly recommend the book. Leading faithful
innovation, following God into
(43:00):
a hopeful future. Uh, and also the workbook.
Tessa, you want to plug the workbook again?
What's the title?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (43:07):
Yeah, the workbook is called,
uh, it's the faithful innovation leader companion,
and it is available on faithlead.org.
And we'll make sure that you all have the URL so that you can check that
out, get a preview, sign up.
>> Loren (43:20):
Awesome. Well, let's take a quick break and come back with some closing
questions.
All right, we're back with Tessa and
Dwight. So thanks so much for y'all's time.
Appreciate y'all hanging with me and having this conversation.
And frankly, I'm glad I got to have this conversation, because I think I
read this book six, nine months ago. Uh, and it was
(43:41):
like, I need to try to get this to happen. So, as you can all
can tell, fan of the book, fan of the
process here. So some closing questions y'all can
take as seriously or not as you'd like to. Dwight, you
may remember these before, so you're welcome to pass if you. If
you don't want to give another answer. So, Tessa, I guess I'll start with
you. Tessa, if you're pope for a day.
All right, what do you want to do? With that day.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (44:05):
Well, and I was. This question was interesting to me, and I'm going to
assume that by pope, you mean the head of the global church. Let's
go with that. Okay. So what
I would do is I would want to help all
of the different expressions and denominations see
what truly unites us as the people of
God. I think that ecumenism
is the future of the church. And
(44:28):
so I loved how you described yourself. I think
all three of us here, uh, on this podcast today
have various backgrounds, and we work in
denominations that are a little bit different than our
histories. I think that
in the future, we, as the people of God, are going to be defined
more by what we have in common than by what separates us.
So I would work very hard on that. I don't know if I could get
(44:50):
much done in a day. But, hey, unity is a powerful
witness to the world, and the world needs that. So that's what I would
try to do.
>> Loren (44:56):
Yeah.
Boy, is that even possible? More in common than
Dwight. Anything to add there?
>> Dwight Schiley (45:05):
Yeah, I think, um, for me, it would be. I
would try to help the church and church
leaders focus on the core
challenge of learning how to
follow Jesus and the identity of being
disciples. And that
is the core thing, and it's
(45:25):
not always the core thing of how our churches spend their time. Our leaders
spend their time.
>> Loren (45:29):
Yeah. Yeah.
A theologian or historical figure you want to meet
or bring back to life.
Cassa.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (45:38):
For me, it's Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I went to
Berlin last summer. I studied at the Bonhoeffer house, and
I would want to hear from him directly about what it was
like to give up his position in New York and go back to
Germany. What would end up being the last time
he knew. Right. He knew that he might not survive, but he did it anyway.
And he actually did it because he cared so much about God's
(45:59):
church.
>> Loren (46:00):
Yeah, Dwight.
>> Dwight Schiley (46:02):
So our family was in Italy in
march of this year, and we had a chance to visit
Assisi, where I'd never been before.
Um, and I would love to
meet St. Francis and
to have the spirit of
simplicity that Francis brought in a
time where there were a lot of distractions
(46:25):
for the church into this moment, because we have
so many distractions. And Francis is
someone who had a pure,
beautiful, pure vision,
um, of following Jesus in
complex times.
>> Loren (46:40):
Yeah. Yeah. Um.
Let's do this. Tessa, you answer this. What do you think history
will remember from our current place in time?
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (46:50):
I love this question. And, Loren, I think we are on the
cusp of something really new. I feel like we are on the cusp
of maybe a second reformation. Um, I know there's been
many reformations in between, but something really big
we know, and we talk about this in the book, that the church as it currently
exists, is failing to connect with people. And we know that
change needs to and is happening. So right
(47:11):
now, I think the church is at a stage where we should be listening to the
spirit and looking for wisdom from the past,
looking for wisdom from the early church.
And I think we're going to look back and see that the people who are at the
forefront of this movement were the people who were looking at
how spiritual formation actually works, how we
actually make disciples, how we actually follow the way of
Jesus, how we actually live as Jesus
(47:34):
wants us to live, and then the
people who are taking that and making their churches
incubators of that work. So I think we're going to look
back, see that this season of the church's history
was a formative point, and we're going to look totally different in the
future, but different in a way that we are
returning to God's mission.
>> Loren (47:53):
Yeah, I like that.
I like that Dwight hopes for the future of
Christianity.
M well, if
you look at what's.
>> Dwight Schiley (48:01):
Happening in the global majority church,
there is so much amazing life
and vitality and growth and
possibility. And I think that, to me,
is very hopeful to see
how even as in the west,
as we still kind of get
(48:21):
ourselves out from underneath the weight
of Christendom and of a culture
that seeks the good without God, that the
Holy Spirit, um, is renewing
the church, uh, in. In the great majority of
the world, in cultures that are not westernized.
And we have so much to learn from that.
>> Loren (48:42):
Yeah. Right. Especially, like, how to. How to be christian without
being western. Right. Like, if anything, we can
learn that.
Where can share, if you all would.
Where can people can connect with you and, uh, connect with
the book? Or I guess. I guess, Tessa, you've already plugged that. So if, uh,
you all want to share, like, how we can connect with you. You
(49:03):
all.
Dwight, start.
>> Dwight Schiley (49:06):
Yeah, um, so, again, faithfully.org dot. There's a
lot of, um, things there, and my
own personal website is dwightshiely.com
dot. Uh, that last name is spelled z
s c h e I l e.
>> Loren (49:21):
Great, Tessa.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (49:25):
I'll point everybody to faithlead.org as well. And
I've actually got a piece on there about Lydia, uh, from
acts that accompanies our book. So, uh, there's a few articles
on there. I've even got one about, uh, my trip to Berlin.
It's a Dietrich Bonhoeffer article, but my personal
website is practicesforlife.org
dot, and I would love to hear from some of your
(49:45):
listeners. So if you want to come find me and send me a note,
I'd love to talk with you.
>> Loren (49:49):
Yeah, well, thank you all so much for hanging with
me and, uh, engaging in this
conversation. Really appreciate the book and hope it's
helpful to churches and leaders across the
country and frankly, across the world. So I always leave folks with
a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you.
>> Paul (50:07):
Thanks for joining us on the future Christian podcast.
To learn more about Loren or the podcast,
visit future christian.com.
One more thing before you go, do us a favor
and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're
feeling especially generous, leave a review.
It really helps us get the word out to more people. About the
(50:27):
podcast the
Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
arts and resonate media. Our episodes were
mixed by Danny Burton and the production support is
provided by Paul Romaglevitt. Thanks
and go in peace.
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