December 31, 2024 • 62 mins
What does it mean to be faithful and creative in a world shaped by crisis? In this episode of the Future Christian Podcast, Martha Tatarnic welcomes the Reverend Dr. Jesse Zink, an Anglican priest, theologian, and author. Dr. Zink discusses his latest book, Faithful, Creative, Hopeful: 15 Theses for Christians in a Crisis-Shaped World, exploring how the church can navigate and respond to global and local crises with faith, creativity, and resilience. The conversation delves into themes of Christian formation, the impact of economic and social systems on faith communities, and the power of apocalyptic clarity to unveil and resist the dehumanizing forces at work in the world. Dr. Zink shares insights on finding hope amidst challenges, fostering intercultural relationships, and embracing the church’s practices—like the Eucharist—as acts of resistance and renewal.
The Rev. Dr. Jesse Zink is an Anglican priest and also serves as canon theologian in the Diocese of Montreal. Born in Vancouver and raised in the United States, Jesse has also served in ministry in South Africa and England before his arrival in Montreal. Since 2017 Jesse, has been Principal of Montreal Diocesan Theological College, or, as it is widely known, “Dio.” Dio is an ecumenical theological college serving the Anglican and United Churches of Canada and is affiliated with McGill University. His latest book, published in fall 2024, is Faithful, Creative, Hopeful: Fifteen Theses for Christians in a Crisis-Shaped World. He is the author of four other books about Christian theology, Christian mission, and Christianity in the non-western world, including Backpacking through the Anglican Communion (2014) and Christianity and Catastrophe in South Sudan: Civil War, Migration, and the Rise of Dinka Anglicanism (2018).
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source
for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is designed
to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the
tools you need for impactful ministry. And now
for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Loren (00:43):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Martha welcomes Jesse Zink to the
show. The Reverend Dr. Jesse Zink
is an Anglican priest and also serves as
Canon Theologian in the Diocese of
Montreal. Born in Vancouver and raised
in the United States, Jesse has also served
in ministry in South Africa and in England before
(01:06):
his arrival in Montreal. Since
2017, Jesse has been principal of
Montreal Diocesan Theological
College, or as it is widely known,
Dio. Dio is an ecumenical
theological college serving the Anglican and
United Churches of Canada and is affiliated with
McGill University. His latest book,
(01:28):
published in the fall of 24, is
Faithful Creative 15 Theses for
Christians in a Crisis Shaped World.
He is the author of four other books about Christian
theology, Christian mission, and Christianity in the
non Western world, including Backpacking through the
Anglican Communion and, uh, Christianity and
Catastrophe in South Sudan, Civil War,
(01:50):
Migration, and the Rise of Dinka
Anglicanism. Please take a moment
to rate and review this episode on whatever
podcast platform you're listening on. And if you find the
episode helpful, please share it with a ministry friend.
Our mission is to help you and your church walk
faithfully into the future.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:16):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am your
host for today's episode, Martha Tatarnick,
and I'm so happy today to be joined by
the Reverend Dr. Jesse Zink. Jesse,
it's great to have you on the program today.
>> Jesse Zink (02:31):
Thanks for having me here.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:33):
Okay, well, we have lots to talk about,
um, and the bulk of our conversation is going
to be about your new book. But,
uh, before we get into that, we just like to start with
some opening questions. So maybe, Jesse, you can just
share a little bit about your faith journey, what that
looks like in the past and what it looks like
(02:53):
now.
>> Jesse Zink (02:54):
Yeah, uh, well, I'm a binational
child, born in Canada, uh, raised in the United
States, but, uh, a, uh, child of
the church, um, born and baptized into the
Anglican Church of Canada and raised in the Episcopal Church in the
United States and now serving back in the Anglican Church of
Canada. So, uh, the church has, uh, Long
(03:15):
been important to me. And you know, I think
in the baptismal service when the congregation, uh,
pledges to support the child in their life
of faith. Uh, certainly I've been the beneficiary of lots of
people in my life, um, my parents
and my family. But, uh. Loads of other saints of the
church who have raised me, uh, in the life of
(03:35):
faith. Uh. But I would say that my faith really
became my own, uh, in part,
uh, through experiences in university, but also afterwards
when I had the opportunity to live and work,
uh. Um. In cultures, uh, outside
of my own. Uh, first in Alaska, uh.
Uh, among Alaska native people. And then in South Africa
(03:56):
working, uh, at a church ministry there. And so, uh.
The intercultural part of my faith has
always been really important. I find that engaging with Christians
from other cultural backgrounds has always helped me deepen
my own faith, broaden my horizons on what it means to
be, uh, a Christian. And
that's what, uh, has led me to
(04:16):
my work today. Um, my work in theological education.
Um, and in this work of theological education,
there's a significant intercultural component both in
what we're offering our students, but also the
backgrounds, uh, that our students come from.
Uh, so I would say I was raised in, uh, the North American
church, um, but have a real connection to and sense
(04:36):
that the body of Christ transcends, uh, the barriers
and boundaries, especially the cultural boundaries,
uh, of our own time. Uh, and
that offers this vision, uh, of what,
uh. Um. A reconciled body can look like to the
rest of the world.
>> Martha Tatarnic (04:52):
That's beautifully said. And that, uh,
intercultural
influence, um. And formation definitely comes through
in your book as well. So, uh. That's
great. Um. Is there a spiritual
practice that you are finding particularly
meaningful now?
>> Jesse Zink (05:12):
Um. One of the things that,
uh. Has been really meaningful to me is
singing. Um. Uh.
Uh. Uh, I love singing. Uh.
I love congregational, uh. Or community
singing. Um. That doesn't mean I'm good at it.
Um. I'm guided by words that,
um. I've heard attributed to Ralph Waldo Emerson.
(05:34):
I think the world would be very quiet if no
birds sang. But those that sang best.
Uh. And I love, uh. Gathering together
a group of people, uh, with hymnals or other
musical resources and just sitting around and singing
together. Uh. I didn't say. One of the other parts of
my spiritual journey has been having a lot of
(05:54):
deep friendships with people from other traditions outside
of my own Anglican, uh, Episcopal tradition.
Uh, and for me, I've had some deep relationships with people
from the Anabaptist or Mennonite background where
Communal singing is really important and I've learned so
much uh, from them. And so, uh, one of the things that
I love doing uh, with my students, uh, in
Montreal, uh, is precisely
(06:16):
that at our retreat, at the opening part of the year,
we have a time where we sit around in a circle,
um, and uh, people share songs from
their own cultural background. Uh, we sing uh,
hymns together, uh, we talk about them, where they come
from. I mean I find the very act of singing
to be spiritually meaningful. Um, but I also find the
(06:36):
lyrics and the words to be a form of
prayer as well. Um, and so anytime I can
gather uh, people together, uh, with hymnals,
uh, or music, a cappella or accompanied,
um, I find that to be a pretty important
informative spiritual practice for me, uh, and for the
community.
>> Martha Tatarnic (06:55):
Yeah, well that sure speaks to my heart. I
mean I think for me that is the
most intuitive and
natural form, um,
of prayer, but just kind of visceral
connection with God. Anecdotally,
the best committee that I ever sat on
was um, to put together
(07:17):
a new hymnbook supplement for the
Anglican Church. And like for months and
months and months, our meetings were just
gathering around a piano and singing through
like all of the new hymns that were coming out. It was
pretty magnificent.
Day long meetings were never so fun.
(07:40):
All right, well we definitely wanted
to um, make sure that we have the
most amount of time in today's conversation
for your book which uh,
is just being released. It is called
Faithful Creative
15 Theses for Christians
in a Crisis Shaped World.
(08:02):
And uh, it is an excellent book. It's
a must read. Um, lots of
props and encouragement, uh,
for people to pick it up because you definitely
won't regret it. It speaks right into
our time and place and
uh, and the place of the church in the world
(08:22):
right now. Um, there's a lot to get
into. So I thought that it would maybe be helpful
to start
um, by getting into the book
through the title and
particularly that phrase
crisis shaped world.
Um, can you speak a little
(08:45):
bit to the pressure points that
you're particularly observing, experiencing in
the world around us right now that lead to
that definition of a crisis shaped world?
>> Jesse Zink (08:58):
Well, I think uh, the word
crisis is used a lot. Right. So,
uh, climate crisis, housing, uh, crisis,
migration crisis, opioid crisis,
opioid crisis, affordability, mental health,
uh, crisis, anxiety, loneliness, depression,
etc. Right. Uh, and
(09:18):
uh, I heard this word which is
beginning to be used more often, the word
polycrisis, uh, which is
uh, as it sounds that we live at a time not just of One
crisis, but of many and importantly that
they're interrelated in such a way that it
makes it difficult to disentangle. So the climate crisis for
instance, is related to uh, migration,
(09:41):
right? Um, economic
inequality is related to
uh, housing, for instance. Uh, and there's lots of ways
in which we can see those, uh, interweaving and
entanglement. And I experienced it
in my own life, right? It's not just an academic thing, but
I experience the sense of ah,
anxiety, concern, uh, about uh, the
(10:03):
state of the world, um, as it relates to
climate, for instance, as it relates to
economics. Um, I'm somebody
for whom uh, the world, the
globe is an important frame of reference in part because
of where I've lived and where I've traveled. And
so crisis shaped world is important to
me. Um, and so in the book I focus
(10:25):
particularly on climate,
on economics, uh, and on
migration, um, tracing the ways in which
they're uh, interwoven with one another.
Uh, and I also though wanted to
frame this and encourage us as
Christians to think about and talk about, uh, the
(10:46):
economic system in which we find ourselves, uh,
and in which we live. And again partly that just
emerges from my own sense of
where we are. You know, every year at
Christmas, I really struggle in December,
um, because I just see how
uh, economic values are taking over a
Christian holy day. Not are taking over, have completely
(11:08):
colonized and taken over a Christian holy day.
I mean, I don't like that as a Christian. But more than that,
I see the kind of pastoral impact it has on people
as so many people, Christian or not, are trying
to respond to, uh, to live up
to some uh, unattainable standard. And I think
that's not really what the Birthday of the Prince of Peace,
(11:28):
uh, is all about. Uh, and then
there was the pandemic. So the COVID 19 pandemic was
an acute moment of crisis. And it just
felt to me like it revealed so much,
uh, that was uh, true about
who we are, um, it revealed our
interconnectedness, uh, our ability to
rally together for a time, um, but also
(11:50):
our inability to sustain that for a long period of
time. Uh, our lack of trust in one
another, uh, and in. In our institutions, as we
saw during vaccination campaigns, for instance.
Uh, and so, uh, I wanted to. To say
something about all of that. Um, I'm the kind of person who
thinks through my fingers, like I think when I'm writing. And
initially I sort of began to write
(12:13):
about the church, you know, after
the pandemic. But then I realized nobody was going to want to
read a book with the word pandemic in the title because,
um, I'm sick of the pandemic. Um, and if
I was sick of it, nobody else was gonna buy that book. And
also I thought that really the issues we were talking
about are so much broader. The pandemic was one
instance of a broader situation of poly crisis.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:36):
Mhm.
>> Jesse Zink (12:37):
And that's what I wanted us to think about. So that's
really what motivated, uh, or
you could say that's the point of departure, uh, for this
book.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:46):
Yeah. Okay. I just want to pick up on a couple of things
there because I think that
what the pandemic also revealed
in a big way to me and I think to many of us,
like when our regular patterns of,
um, church and church gathering were shut
down, um, like,
(13:07):
why does it matter to keep going
if the church doesn't
speak to those
major crisis points that the world is living
through? Right. Like, I
felt like in a huge way
that unless I was convinced
that the church had something to say to those
(13:29):
points of crisis, then I
was done. Like, it just like, was not
worth it. It didn't, like, matter enough if
it didn't speak to that. So, like,
that interrelated piece,
um, is also
very much connected to the life of the church.
(13:49):
Right. Because each of those pressure points that you
identify, um, have
implications in the life of the church as
well.
>> Jesse Zink (13:58):
And it's certainly the case that people in our churches are
thinking about these things because they read the news and, and
watch the headlines like we all do and live
in the world. And I've really found, actually in,
you know, I've been talking about the material that's in this book
for a little while now, uh, to different
audiences, and I've really found just one of the
responses people give me is
(14:21):
this sort of relief, like, thank you for naming these
things which have felt to me so significant,
and yet I'm not sure how to,
uh, approach them or even know
that my faith might have something to say to that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (14:35):
So, like, where do you see,
um, these pressure points
bubbling up in a specific church way? Like,
what are the conversations that you're hearing in the life of the
church, uh, that also
get interwoven with these
planetary crises?
>> Jesse Zink (14:54):
Right. Well, because, uh,
the other place in which we use the word crisis, uh, it's
not nearly on the same scale as climate crisis, for instance,
but the crisis of the church, uh,
and for those of us, uh, like you and me, who
serve in mainline Protestant backgrounds in the United
States or Canada, Uh, we can certainly narrate
(15:15):
stories of church decline in terms of
attendance, in terms of property ownership.
Uh, we don't need to rehearse this.
The statistics here, they're different for, uh, every
denomination, uh, anyway.
Um. Uh, but I think
the sense that I've had coming out of the
pandemic, um, what. What really
(15:36):
crystallized it, perhaps we were there already, but what really
crystallized it is, you know, as I said, I've been in the
church my, My entire life, and my entire life
people have been saying, oh, the church is in decline. There's
going to come some moment when we're really going to have to make some big decisions,
decisions about things. And I think that moment is
here.
>> Martha Tatarnic (15:53):
Um, uh, or maybe like 10 years ago.
>> Jesse Zink (15:56):
Exactly. But. But maybe we're finally realizing it.
Right? Uh, we're,
um. That things can't keep going the way
they've always been going. Um, and,
uh. So we need to talk about that. And I think the
other thing, though, I wanted to say about
crisis in the church is a sense that.
And I say this, um, with a
(16:18):
lot of love, um, for the church and as a
child of the church and a servant of the church, that
sometimes I didn't always get the sense in the church we were having
the conversations we needed to be having, uh, right
now, that. That we weren't quite
reckoning with the nature of the situation, uh,
as it is, um, and that
(16:39):
we weren't, um.
Uh. Well, that the church sometimes had become so
wrapped up, uh, in itself, um, but also
so wrapped up in the structures and the powers of this world,
um, that it was unable to see the situation,
uh, in which it found itself. And so
I, uh, really wanted to say, and
(17:00):
speak to Christians and say, look, let's think
about this broader context, um, and then let's talk
about how we respond to it with the good news of Jesus
Christ.
>> Martha Tatarnic (17:09):
Yeah, I think that, um, that word that you used
a minute ago, relief, um,
is very much a feeling
that I had very, ah,
strongly reading your book and that I've had in our
conversations over the years
because we kind of
travel in the same Anglican Canadian circles
(17:32):
and, uh, have talked about some of this stuff over
the years. But, um, that,
like, sense of relief, to name it, like,
this is what's actually going on. And to me
that is really connected to hope, like,
being honest about what is going on,
um, to me is not just like a big exhale. It's
(17:52):
also like the start of hope.
And you frame that right from the beginning of this book.
You say that uh, this book is
born from a great sense of possibility and
expectation about what Christians can offer
to a hurting and changing world. So
I just wondered if you wanted to speak for a moment about that
(18:13):
Hope. It's in your title and it's
like right in the introduction of the book.
>> Jesse Zink (18:20):
So the source of hope, what makes me
hopeful, uh, ultimately is the life, death
and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the knowledge that Christ
will come again. I mean that, that is
the point of departure. That's gospel, uh,
good news. Um, obviously that
takes some unpacking which is part of what I'm
(18:40):
uh, uh, writing about. But you
know, ah, at its core
hope um, is a virtue that puts us on a
timeline of God's action. We uh, look back to what God
has done in the past, we look around
us to what God is doing in the present and we look to the
future as well, uh, knowing that God,
(19:01):
uh, will act in the future,
uh, and that makes us hopeful.
Uh, now I want to be clear what Hope is not
right. Hope is not optimism. Uh, hope is not the
sense that we just need to sit back and let God
sort everything out. Hope, uh, I
think I use the phrase hope, uh, is a kind
of, uh, no options left hanging on by your
(19:23):
fingernails kind, uh, of virtue. Uh, you
wouldn't choose hope, uh, if you had a choice about
it. Um, and, and I've sometimes
said somewhat in jest, but I think perhaps it's true
that um, the mood in this book that I
was going for at times was, was bleakly
hopeful, um, hopefully more hopeful
than bleak. Um, but, uh,
(19:46):
but, but I think that's, that's what it's about.
And in how does God act? God uh,
acts for abundance of life, uh, for fullness
of life, for wholeness of life. Uh, in Scripture
that's described variously as the kingdom or the
reign of God, as shalom,
as righteousness, um, as
peace, um, and that's good news because
(20:08):
it's good, um, and it's new. We don't
find that kind of life uh, anywhere
else. Uh, and so the
hopeful piece is to know that
my role, uh, our role as Christians in this
time and place is simply uh,
what it has been for Christians across history,
which is to proclaim the gospel afresh in
(20:31):
this generation, um, to say,
okay, given this context, a context
of a crisis shaped world, uh, in a
church that's perhaps in a crisis of its
own, what does the good news of Jesus Christ
have to say, uh, to this context,
uh, and I'm not persuaded by Stories
(20:51):
of church decline. Um, I don't think the
church is going to die, um, partly because of the great
promise of Jesus that the gates of hell will not prevail
against it. Um, but I do think the church is
going through a pretty big period of change and
transition. Um, and that
feels very wrenching and difficult and confusing for those of
us who are in the middle of it. But honestly it also
(21:14):
feels immensely energizing and exciting.
Um, because I know that, that God is working in our
midst and God will continue to work, uh, and
leading us always towards this quality of
life of um, communal life, uh,
in relationship with one another, in relationship with
Christ and in relationship with uh, the world around
us that we can't find anywhere else. And so I can't
(21:36):
think of anything else I'd rather do than tell
people about that, um, and try to uh,
enact it and live it, uh, and proclaim it.
So that's hope right there.
>> Martha Tatarnic (21:47):
Yep, that's hope. And you know, I think
the other part that's
like really integral to that hope is
like the kingdom of God is actually not
something that we're called to make happen
or to build or to
um. Like we can, we can get
(22:07):
on the train, we can, um, we can get
better at um, bearing witness
to it, we can get. Sharpen our
language and our eyesight for being able to perceive
it. But it's actually like not up
to us to make it happen.
>> Jesse Zink (22:25):
Uh, no, no it's not. Uh, but I think
what you say is, is uh, that. That doesn't excuse us
from doing nothing.
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:32):
Um, no, no.
>> Jesse Zink (22:33):
What it leads to, what knowledge of the kingdom
leads to is it leads us to live
now like things will one day
be. Um, you know, that, that we're trying to give the
foretaste of it, uh, in our common life. And
we'll fail, um, because, because we're, we're human beings.
But from time to time, uh, we'll get glimpses of
it. And as you say, uh, part of it is to, to see
(22:56):
that, to point it out to other people and say, this is what
this looks like. Mhm. This is what we're trying to offer to other
people.
>> Martha Tatarnic (23:02):
Mm, mhm. Absolutely. Yeah.
Um, we don't, we're not in charge of making
God show up like God is on it.
Um, so
you have 15 theses. Um, each
one is its own chapter. It's a great
organizing principle for the book.
(23:24):
I um, think that it
involves quite a lot of discipline to
um, sort out those 15 theses.
Because as you say they're all so
interconnected. And so there's a lot of,
um, chapters referring back to previous
chapters and that kind of thing. But how did
you arrive at those particular
(23:46):
15.
>> Jesse Zink (23:48):
Yeah. Well, let me just say a word first about Thesis as a
structuring device. Um, many of your
listeners will probably know that the thesis has a somewhat
august, uh, role in Christian history.
Notably, um, Martin luther in his
95. Um, so I. I'm not
necessarily trying to associate myself with that. But I think what
Luther recognized is that a, ah,
(24:09):
declarative statement, which is all that a thesis is a
declarative statement, is a great way,
um, to invite discussion,
um, to invite response. And, uh. And
so that's really what I'm interested in. Uh, you know, this book is a
contribution to his discussion, uh, and an
invitation, uh, for a response. And the reason that I
chose Thesis also is that,
(24:32):
uh, you know, probably like you, I go to a lot of church
meetings. And I was kind of getting tired
of just the amount of rhetorical
questions that I heard there. Like, well, what would it be like
if. Or imagine if we could do this?
Um, and I just wanted to say that
there have been several meetings I sat in where I thought, okay,
let's try to answer that question. Let's not just ask it
(24:54):
now. Look, I know how important it is to ask good
questions. Um, uh, but at
some point I just want to try to answer them. And,
uh, I will have failed. Um, if you
read this book and you find yourself agreeing with all
15. Um. Because as I say, this is
an invitation for conversation. And maybe in 10 years I'll
come back and be like, oh, I don't. Don't agree with that one anymore.
(25:17):
Um, and so I found that the thesis
was, uh. Uh. I wanted to write a book
in a way that was really accessible, um, for
people in congregations, uh, for clergy of all
educational backgrounds. And that the thesis was a really
helpful structuring device that allowed me to talk about a
broad range of issues. As you say, interconnected,
(25:37):
but still a broad range. Even though some of these
theses could be whole books in themselves.
Um, and, uh, maybe they one day will
be. Um. As for how I got to 15,
um. Well, I originally wrote about 19
or 20. Um, some of them aren't ready for prime
time. Uh, some of them just didn't
(25:57):
really fit. Um, and then I
did try to find a kind of narrative
arc. Beginning, um, with the idea of
polycrisis and diagnosing where we are. And
then thinking about this idea of resistance to the
powers of this world, um, and then,
uh, ending with a sense of renewed, ah,
church. There's lots of things I didn't write about. You know, I work
(26:20):
in theological education. But there's almost nothing in this
book about ministry, um, uh, or the
ministry of the church as such. Um, there'd
be more I'd want to say about the
connection of the church and what renewal of the church looks
like. But at some point you hit word count limits. And
15 was a nice number. That was that.
(26:40):
So maybe there'll be a volume two, or maybe
it'll turn into something else. We'll see.
>> Martha Tatarnic (26:46):
Yeah, definitely. Um, it is
a conversation starter. And,
uh, a variety of conversation starters.
I wanted to drill down into
chapter three. I suspect that anybody
reading your book might find that
one of the chapters becomes
(27:06):
kind of the lens through which all of the other
chapters you end up reading. And for me, that was chapter
three, um, which is called
Christian Formation is, uh,
not Failing, it's being Defeated.
Um. I might not have the exact wording of that.
Right. Um. Yeah,
(27:27):
Christian Formation is not failing, it's being
defeated. Um,
so when I was reading this,
uh, it just really spoke
immediately to
the three really unhelpful
stances that I see Christian leaders,
um, getting themselves into.
(27:48):
Uh, more than anything
else. Um, I think that a lot of
Christian leaders can feel extremely
guilty and, uh,
inadequate, uh, to
the job of trying to save the church,
which, you know, I think we easily sort of get
(28:08):
ourselves into thinking that that's our
job. Um, I think on
the flip side of that, there can be a lot of false
bravado about, um,
how well things are going and,
um. And how confident we are
in having the right answers
(28:29):
and the right formula sort of
nailed, uh, down.
Um, which tends
to ignore, uh, just sort of
the
overall market, um,
economics that we're buying into
when we think that it's sort
(28:50):
of about succeeding, uh, for the
greatest market share. Um, and then I
think kind of in the middle of that
bravado and that inadequacy,
there can just be a lot of learned
helplessness in, um,
leadership ranks. Because you can
(29:10):
feel so
disempowered in the face
of, like, these massive forces that seem to be
working against church, um,
success, for lack of a better word.
Um, so I
found the talk in this
chapter about defeat
(29:33):
to be really
helpful, very honest,
and then ultimately hopeful. So
can you just talk about
defeat, um, of Christian Formation?
>> Jesse Zink (29:49):
Um, well,
um, first of all, I'm glad to
know this was like a chapter that unlocked things for
you. Um, because in some ways it was
for me as well. Some of these theses, you know, you're
seeing about the 48th draft, by the time it
finally works its way in the print, this one, it's about the fourth or
fifth draft. Like, it just sort of. It just sort of like, came
(30:11):
out of my fingers and I was like, ah, I think. I think now
I understand what I'm trying to say. Um, so what
do I mean by the distinction between failure and
defeat? I mean, one way to think about this is in terms
of sports teams. If you're a fan of a sports team,
right? There's a difference when you're a sports fan
of, uh, between rooting for a team or
(30:32):
when your favorite team, you know, right from the beginning of
the year, it's clear they're not going to do very well, right? They fight
among each other in the locker room. They don't practice very
well. It's like a rebuilding year or something. The owners
say, uh, and everybody's concerned about their next contract,
not about executing their plays on the field. Right? That's a team
that's failed. A team that's been defeated, though,
(30:52):
you know, uh, uh, I've certainly rooted for teams in the
past that have played well all season. You know, they practice
well together, they execute their plays, uh,
and then they lose on a last second play
to a team that just happens to be stronger or
better in that moment, and that's defeat.
Um, I would much rather be the fan of the
(31:13):
second, uh, of the team defeated than the team that
fails. And I think you're right. The way you began
by diagnosing the three ways in which
we reacted in church, um,
I really experience all of those at various
points. Um, but certainly I felt failure in
my ministry, right? Like, I felt like a failure. And I
(31:33):
know how debilitating that feeling can be.
Right? It just makes you want to give up. Uh, it makes you want
to say, well, we tried, but we
failed. And, and what I want to say about
that is that that diagnosis puts
all of the attention on ourselves, right?
It's. It's an individually oriented one, or it's a
(31:53):
communally oriented one.
Um, but what I'm saying, and as you say, this
is the third chapter, so it comes at the end of the first section of the
book where I'm trying to think, uh,
apocalyptically, uh, thinking about,
uh, unveiling the structures and the powers that exist in
this world that work against Christian witness. Right?
We as Christians are not the only people trying to form
(32:16):
people in this world, uh, there are lots of other powers
that are doing that as well. And I speak, uh, in the previous
chapter specifically about, uh, economic powers and the
way that, uh, our economic values are
forming, uh, who we are, uh, as people.
So, uh, if I just go around thinking myself a
failure because my program didn't work out, then I'm thinking
(32:36):
all about myself. And I'm not thinking about the structures
in which I find myself. But if I begin by
saying, look, I. Or we as
Christians are not the only people who are trying to form
people in this world. There are other powers out there
as well. If I can see those
powers, uh, those structures, those
principalities, uh, then I might say,
(32:57):
you know what? It's not that I'm failing, that I've done
something wrong. It's that I'm being defeated by something
that is stronger than me, uh,
stronger than us. Uh, and that
if I start talking about defeat,
um, then it's not quite as
debilitating a feeling. Um, to be
defeated is not to be
(33:18):
defeatist. Um,
and. And that's, I think, a really important
place in terms of opening up, uh,
the rest of the book. And I think there's a theological
lens on this one as well, which is
that when Jesus was hanging on the
cross, um, a lot of his followers
(33:38):
thought that he had sailed, right? But
he hadn't. He'd just been defeated. Uh, you know,
he'd spoken, uh, with confidence. He'd,
you know, gone around. He'd. He'd done. And been
precisely who he had been sent to earth, uh, to
be. And for a time, uh, the
other powers of this world, which he was deeply aware
(33:58):
of, the other powers of the world were stronger than
him. And of course, the great good news is
that Good Friday is not the end of the story,
right? That that defeat on the cross,
uh, is not all there is. And so
if we can reframe our conversation away
from ourselves and our failures
or successes, as you say, that
(34:20):
bravado around it. But then just say,
well, this community trying to form people, what
is the broader context in which we find ourselves?
And how might that context be working
towards and helping us form people in the way of
life, of the kingdom of God? Or more likely,
how might that way of life be working
(34:40):
against, uh, posing obstacles to our
efforts to form people, uh, into the way of life,
of the reign of God? Uh, and we might
be defeated. We probably will be defeated,
given the strength of the powers of this world.
But that doesn't mean that we need to be
miserable. Uh, Feel like we're miserable
(35:02):
failures. What it means is that simply in that moment
of defeat, God, uh, is
waiting for us and working, uh,
with and for and among us, uh, to bring
new life and new victory, uh, out of those moments of
defeat, uh, in precisely the same way that God
has always done.
>> Martha Tatarnic (35:21):
Yeah, I think that um, that
connection and um,
the framing of Jesus
as being defeated on the cross,
um, I have just found myself going back to
that time and time again. Um, and
it goes back to kind of where you started around
like what is the place of
(35:43):
hope out of which you write this book? And
that's it. Right?
Um, sorry, go ahead.
>> Jesse Zink (35:50):
Well, I just think, you know, if we think
that Good Friday is not the end of the story, we don't just think
that. We believe it and know it to be true.
Um, when I am defeated, my
response is not necessarily
to try harder and work harder to believe that if I can
just find the right thing, I will do it.
(36:11):
Um, the response is to be
more aware of our surroundings, um, more aware
of the society in which we live and how it's structured in
ways that are working for or against, uh, what we're trying to
do, uh, and then it
is being faithful, um, to
that deposit of faith, to that good news
(36:31):
and seeking to uh, uh,
proclaim it, um, and enact it and embody it
in the life that we share together in the Christian
community.
>> Martha Tatarnic (36:40):
Mhm. Yeah. Um, and
that apocalyptic lens, um,
runs as a very strong thread
throughout the book as well.
Um, that
clarity around um, what
is being revealed and then
(37:02):
I think the clarity about
um, what our response
can be,
um, when we are
honing in on what is actually happening.
>> Jesse Zink (37:18):
And I think I want to be clear because
especially in the sort of Anglican and Episcopal circles
or mainline Protestant circles that you and I spend time
in, uh, Martha, um, the word
apocalyptic might not be one that naturally comes to people's
lips. Um, and I want to be clear that
all I'm saying when I use apocalyptic language
(37:38):
is simply to, as the word suggests, to
unveil, to reveal, um, the powers
of this world, um, and to be aware about how
they're working against the kingdom of God. And that the
response of apocalyptically minded
Christians, um, is not
revolution, um, it's not quietism, it's
not giving up all hope, uh, it's resistance.
(38:00):
It's about living, uh, in our common life,
a way of life that resists the dehumanizing
powers of this world and offers
a, ah, fullness and abundance of life, uh, in our
common life. That we can't find, ah, elsewhere.
>> Martha Tatarnic (38:16):
Yeah, absolutely. And that I think really
brings me to my next question,
um, which is
around that alternative that I think
that you set up so beautifully
throughout the book. Um, that you
know, when we are very clear
(38:37):
about those dehumanizing
powers of this world, the
principalities and powers that do not bring
life, that are working against
um, kingdom values,
then we can also
um, I think lean
into what
(38:59):
we offer in contrast to
um, to that alternative. So I hear, I hear
throughout the book, um,
ah, the phrase like um,
to be in this world but not of it kept coming
to mind because what you
seem to be inviting is um, a
(39:21):
really deep, ah,
engagement and deep
conversation with the. What is actually happening
in the world around us.
Um, but then
that stance of resistance, that alternative,
um, to be our
offering,
um, it's not always
(39:43):
easy to do that. It's not always easy
to um, either
be clear about the waters that we're swimming in
or to figure out how to step outside
of those waters that we're swimming in, um,
to claim something else. And so I
thought maybe we could just
um, get a little
(40:07):
concrete here with um,
our listeners who are, you know,
trying to provide,
to lead faithful Christian communities.
Um, like what are some of the
ways that the church
is just by its nature
already doing that alternative. Like,
(40:30):
so we're not kind of adding
um, onto the job
description or like more things that we
should be doing as churches and
as Christian leaders, but we can
instead like kind of embrace what the church
is by nature as that alternative.
>> Jesse Zink (40:54):
Yeah, I think this is uh. This. This is really significant
because uh, you know, as you and I
know and as we've discussed, sometimes part of our
response, our default as Christians is to think, oh, we got to
start something new.
>> Martha Tatarnic (41:06):
I know.
>> Jesse Zink (41:07):
Right. We need to launch a new program here. And
there's. There's nothing wrong with, with. With new programs
necessarily, although it does tend to put the
focus on us. Um, and I'd like
to put the focus on God, I guess. Uh,
but I do think, uh, you know,
ultimately what we are doing in this, you
know, apocalyptically inclined perspective that I'm
(41:30):
trying to put forward here is we are trying to
craft a model of life in our Christian communities that
resists the powers, uh, of this world.
Uh, and that ultimately,
uh, our Christian
practices give us lots of guidance on that already.
So I end the book, uh, perhaps not surprisingly
(41:50):
for somebody who's Anglican, um, with the Eucharist,
with Communion, um, and
thinking about how the Eucharist
already provides us Some guidance for what
it means to live, uh, a
resistant life. Uh, and,
you know, as I say, I'm an Anglican. The sacramentalism
of, uh, Anglicanism has always been very appealing to
(42:13):
me. Uh, you know, let's look at
what we're doing. So, you know, in the Anglican services that I
attend, there's a moment where we pass the peace with one another.
Right. Um, well, if we are sort of going around
shaking hands or these days waving at one another,
but our community is riven by some sort of
conflict, as is true in some of our communities,
(42:33):
then perhaps we should think about that. What do we think
about that disjuncture between what we're saying about ourselves,
liturgically reconciled people, and how we're actually
living our lives? Um, if we're confessing our
sins as we do, uh,
when we celebrate the Eucharist, but, uh, we're
still participating in systemic, uh, structures of
oppression and sin in this world, then, uh, let's
(42:56):
pause on that for a while. Let's ask ourselves what
confession, um, and repentance and amendment of life would look like
not just for the individual sins that may
come to mind when we are, um, bidden to confess our sins.
But let's also think about what
confession and repentance and amendment of life might look
like, um, in terms of our participation
(43:16):
in the structures of this world. Because I do want to be clear
that, you know, although I may be apocalyptically
inclined, uh, in identifying powers, I'm quite clear
that I participate in all of those. And our churches do as
well. Um, so what does repentance look
like? Ah, there, you know,
I have a. I have a high view of the. Of the
Eucharist. Um, uh, which means that I
(43:38):
do see that when the community of followers
of Jesus gathers together with bread and wine around the
table, um, this is a moment of the.
In breaking of the kingdom of God, um, in the
way that it shows us our right relationship
with one another, our right relationship with God, our
right relationship with. With the natural world and the bread and
(43:59):
wine that we bring forward and place on the
table. Um, this is what. This is
what, uh, it's all about. Um,
and. And that part of our job in
ministry is simply to point out when
we're seeing that happening already. So that
when we see reconciliation happen, uh, when
we see, uh, you know,
(44:21):
diverse communities created
here, here in Canada, of course our population is growing very
rapidly with immigrants from all over the world. And when I
see the intercultural communities that are being formed in some of
our churches, I think this is exactly what
God is. Is. Is calling us to be.
Um, let's lift this up. Let's hold this up and
say, uh, this. This is the
(44:44):
quality of life that we're trying to offer, uh, to other
people. Um, and so
I just find in what we are already doing and what
Christians have been bidden to do for 2,000 years,
uh, so much resource, uh, for
ministry. Uh, you know, so the Eucharist is just one
example. Uh, there's
(45:04):
several other I could give. Uh, but
all of it oriented around
having, uh, the Christian community, uh, be
this community that offers the foretaste of
the wholeness of life, um, that God is working to
bring about.
>> Martha Tatarnic (45:20):
Yeah, yeah. I was. When I was reading
that last chapter about the
Eucharist, I was thinking about
the practice of ablutions
that, um, we. I mean, not all
Christian traditions do that, but certainly in the
Anglican Church, there's this very
careful process of how
(45:42):
the, the leftover bread and wine
needs to be consumed and treated with care
or returned to the earth or, um, you
know, whatever. Whatever it is. And
uh, there can be like, very detailed, uh,
cleaning practices and that kind of thing. And
I, I feel like that kind
(46:03):
of, uh,
lens, like, is something that I try
to bring to my own.
Um, food consumption patterns,
you know, in our household, how we treat leftovers, how
we, um, how we shop, how we
make sure that things aren't going to waste, how we compost,
you know, all of those. Those processes. So I
(46:25):
love that. That idea of,
um, of the Christian community,
like forming us to see the world
differently and to engage differently with the world.
Um, not
to kind of add to people's to do
lists, but are there like
(46:46):
one or two examples that you would point to
of, um, kind of new
projects or new programs, uh,
that you have seen churches
embrace that. That look like that kind of
faithful, creative, hopeful
church.
>> Jesse Zink (47:06):
Well, I'm always wary of answering a question like this
for reasons you've already, uh,
indicated.
Um, you
know,
ultimately I think I want to answer that
question by saying,
uh, what are some of the characteristics of a
church that's living like this? And one of the words I didn't use in
(47:29):
the title of the book, um, but I explore,
um, in one of the chapters is the word
confidence, uh, a word that literally means to
live with faith. Uh, and I tell this story
about, uh. You know, I'm a tall person. I used to work
at a summer camp for a long time as a teenager and in my early 20s.
And I used to walk around kind of hunched over as a
lot of tall teenagers going through puberty do.
(47:51):
And my summer camp director was actually
taller than me. Um, he's a wonderful man.
Um, this is a Christian summer camp. And one day he came over to
me and he said, jesse, you're exactly as tall as God
made you to be. So roll your shoulders back, stand up tall,
and be who God has made you to be. And I've
never forgotten that. And I probably still slouch from time to time.
But, uh, I try to remember that. And
(48:14):
that's the kind of living I want to call Christians to
is that confident Christian living. Which isn't
an overconfidence. It's not ego driven,
arrogant.
>> Martha Tatarnic (48:23):
Um, it's not arrogant.
>> Jesse Zink (48:24):
It's not arrogant. But it's simply saying, this is who God has
created us to be. Uh, you know, in my
tradition, I would describe that as a eucharistic community.
Uh, so let's roll our shoulders back and
be who God is calling us to be.
Uh, we might not be the same huge congregation, we might
not have our gracious and lovely buildings, uh, in the same
(48:45):
way, but we're still a, uh,
people committed to following the way of Jesus in the
world, welcoming, uh, strangers, uh,
not being afraid to take risks, not being afraid to make
mistakes. M. Knowing that the future
will be different from the present, but still being
faithful, uh, to the same God.
Uh, I mean, you did ask me for examples. I'll just give
(49:08):
one example because I was just attending this recently,
uh, the church that I attend. And I'll just say I had nothing
to do with this besides, uh, showing up, um,
for the last several months, uh, once a month has been doing,
uh, intergenerational, uh,
communion preparation and
reflection. Morning on Saturday morning. And it
begins with intergenerational
(49:30):
making, uh, of bread. So, um, making a different
kind of bread every time and thinking about where the food comes
from and how we make it. Uh, and then we
actually sit together and we talk about
some aspect of Eucharist,
uh, uh, again, in as
intergenerational a fashion as we can manage. And then
we eat together. So we eat the bread and we eat some other
(49:53):
foods that Jesus might have had. And in terms of the way it
is drawing together people from diverse
backgrounds, bringing, um, to the surface
all kinds of different views, uh, on the
Eucharist, actually engaging us in
activity, building, uh, uh, this
community, forming this community, uh, in a
eucharistic fashion, uh,
(50:14):
has just been wonderful to see. Uh,
and it does take some work, uh, to prepare
that, uh, as I say, I have nothing to do with it,
uh, besides eating the bread.
Uh, but it's been wonderful to see the
formation effects that, that is.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:30):
Yeah, that's a beautiful example and it really ties
together a lot of the
themes that keep coming up in the, in the book.
Um, okay, let's, let's go with a
final question before we have our wrap
up. Um, questions.
You work in a theological college, you
(50:51):
form Christian leaders.
Um, if
you could sort of say like what you would
love for a Christian leader
to take away from your book to hear and what you're
trying to say, what, what
would that be like? What do you most
want new Christian leaders or
(51:14):
continuing Christian leaders to take away
here?
>> Jesse Zink (51:20):
It's not about you. Uh, you're not the
Messiah. Uh, I'm not going to save the church and neither
are you. Uh, there already has been a Messiah,
uh, and so
uh, don't think it's all about
you. Don't burn yourself out,
uh, either implicitly or explicitly
making yourself the center of the story.
(51:41):
Uh, instead,
um, think about what a wonderful
message, uh, that we have to
proclaim, ah, to enact,
to embody, uh, in this
time, uh, and, and
that that message is ultimately
a message that's not about
(52:04):
information. I mean it is about information, but it's
a message that leads to a quality of
life, um, and it is a quality
of life. The um, words I use are
fullness, a wholeness of life, an abundance of life
that we can't find uh, anywhere
else. And yes it's
true, um, we uh,
(52:26):
need all of our resources of
creativity uh, to
proclaim and enact that message today because
we live at a different time, um, but we're
no different from Christians at any other point in the last
2,000 years. Um, so
what that means is we need leaders
who are uh, willing to
(52:48):
take risks, uh, as I've said,
um, uh, who are
willing to speak and to act
and to paint a vision of what God is doing in the
world and what God will be doing in the world,
um, to say that there is a future,
um, um, and we are
headed towards that, uh, even though in our
(53:10):
crisis shaped world it doesn't always feel like
that, uh, that
we exist on a timeline of God's action in the world
and we are one little piece of it, um, but
what a privilege it is, uh, to be that one little
piece of it. And so let's be attentive to
our context, uh, be attentive to the ways in which
(53:30):
it is pointing us away from that kingdom of God.
And then let's, as I say, take all of our
resources of creativity, of uh,
faith, uh, of hope, um,
and dream and imagine, uh,
the kind of community, uh,
uh, that we can be, that,
that embodies uh, that way of life.
(53:52):
And we know, uh, if we've
studied Christian history that
just what that looks like will be different in
different contexts and it will be different than
it's been in the past, uh, because the
church has always been changing, uh, but
that doesn't mean, uh, that God isn't
(54:13):
faithful because God is faithful,
uh, and God continues to sustain
us, uh, in this ministry. God, uh,
is the center of the story, uh, and what a wonderful
story that is for us to be a part of.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:27):
Yeah, beautifully said. Um, that word
attentive is a theme word in the book
and it's a really rich word.
Um, and I, I do
think that it is actually
enormously,
uh, empowering and
energizing to uh,
(54:49):
dispel the, the main
character energy that we can sometimes
put on ourselves when we're in the life
of the church. Right. Like, yeah, we're not, we're
not in charge of saving the church. We're not the
Messiah. And um,
that is very empowering
(55:10):
to know that. Um,
so, yeah, it's a
fantastic book. Um, I
am so appreciative of the
conversations, um, that
you and I have been part of in the Anglican
Church, um,
(55:30):
how the book really kind of speaks, I think, to
uh, what we're hearing from leaders
and congregations across Canada,
uh, across North America, um,
how we're feeling, how we're responding.
Um, this book is really a must
read for all
(55:52):
of us.
>> Jesse Zink (55:53):
Um, from your lips to the listeners ears, I
hope. Thank you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (55:57):
Yeah, yeah, no, um, it's
really good. Very using that word
attentive again. Very attentive to
what is happening and how people are feeling.
And you will walk away from reading
this book with a sense of hope
and uh, empowerment. So
(56:17):
thank you, Jesse.
>> Jesse Zink (56:18):
Thank you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:19):
Okay, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll come back
for uh, some rapid fire closing
questions.
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast.
We are going into our closing questions
with Jesse Zink and
uh, Jesse, if you were pope for a
(56:40):
day, what would that day look
like? What would be on your agenda?
>> Jesse Zink (56:47):
I'd, uh, probably be torn between asking, uh, for a
private tour of the Vatican museums or writing the
encyclical that allows women to be ordained.
I hope I would have the fortitude to uh,
resist the temptation and write that encyclical and not go to the
museum all day.
>> Martha Tatarnic (57:03):
I don't know. Maybe you could split your time between the
two.
Okay. What theologian or
historical Christian figure would you want to meet
or bring back to life, have supper with?
>> Jesse Zink (57:18):
Um, well, I'll just take
Jesus, uh, off the table.
Ah. Uh, you know, and
I'm a very historically inclined person, uh,
as this book will make clear. So there's. There's no shortage of people.
I'd love to pick, uh, their brains. But I think in the
context of this conversation, in this book, uh, I would
pick two. I, uh, grew up at a church called St. John's
(57:40):
Episcopal Church in Northampton, Massachusetts.
Uh, and, uh, there were two people who
were associated with that church long before I ever arrived in
the early 20th century. The, uh, first was a man named William
Stringfellow, who, as a child, grew up, uh, at that
church, uh, as I did. Uh, he went on to be a lawyer,
uh, and a member of the Episcopal Church and a
(58:00):
theologian who wrote a number of really wonderful
books. Uh, and he's also a very
apocalyptically inclined, uh, theologian.
And I think I'm influenced a lot, uh,
by him. He's also a very sacramentally oriented
theologian, uh, so I would love to
talk to him. The other person, uh, who used
to be the priest or the rector of that church in
(58:22):
Northampton was a man named Stephen Bain, who,
uh, went on to be a bishop in the Episcopal Church and
then went on to be, uh, in the 1960s, a really
critical figure, uh, in the global, uh,
Anglican Communion. Um, and Bain wrote a lot
as well, and he had a lot to say about how God is
still acting in the world, um, but how the church needs
(58:42):
to change. And. And so, although I don't quote either
of them directly in this book, I feel that both of
them are big influences on me. And I would
love for the three of us to have dinner sometime and
talk about our common connection, uh, to the same church and
hear what they have to say about how, uh, our
world is today.
>> Martha Tatarnic (59:01):
You know, I think that, uh, this. That
is always my favorite question in these
interviews that I get to have. And
nobody has ever given those particular
answers before, so that's delightful.
>> Jesse Zink (59:15):
I love that little Billy
Stringfellow as he was when he was growing up in Northampton.
Um, I would love to
have been fly on the wall for some of his Sunday school
classes.
>> Martha Tatarnic (59:28):
Oh, that's great. Just a fantastic
answer. What will history remember
from our current time and place? Place?
>> Jesse Zink (59:37):
Um, well, maybe this isn't a very positive answer, but
I sometimes think the idolatry
of economics, uh, of money, of
a, uh, deeply constrained notion of value that
thinks the only thing that matters is the price of an
object. I, um, think the way in
which that is damaging us, uh, and
leading us, uh, to, among so much else, a
(01:00:00):
deeply disordered relationship with God's creation.
Um, I hope we can transcend
that, uh, and so we can look back on it as something
in the past.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:10):
Yeah, that's right. What are your
hopes for the future of Christianity that might be connected
to your previous answer?
>> Jesse Zink (01:00:20):
Well, I would just, uh, go back to the word confidence that
I used earlier. Um, let's roll our shoulders
back, stand, uh, up tall and not with
arrogance, uh, but with
boldness, uh, and humility. Uh, let's
be the confident, uh, Christians God has called
us to be in the way that we live our lives together in
(01:00:40):
community.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:41):
Okay, where can people find more about
you, Jesse?
>> Jesse Zink (01:00:47):
Uh,
I do have a website, uh,
JesseZink.com that I try to keep up to date with
at least information about the books that I've written. Uh, I'm not so
good about, uh, other things. I am fortunate that I have a name
that's somewhat unusual. Um, so if you Google
Jesse Zinc, uh, you'll be able to find it. Uh, I
must say I'm so confused by the present state of,
(01:01:09):
the present fractured state of social media these days that
I really struggle to stay on top of where things are happening.
And usually I just throw up my hands and walk away from it all.
But, um, uh, you
can find me on Facebook, you, uh,
can find me on the website. You, uh, can just google my name and you'll
find my email address at work and just drop me a line. I love
(01:01:30):
having conversations, uh, with people, email, uh,
or otherwise. And happy, uh, to hear from
you, uh, if and when you have a chance to read this book about what
you thought.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:40):
Okay, well, thank you so much for your time today,
Jesse. Thank you for, uh,
the thought and the
attentiveness that went into writing it.
And um, I
think that this is going to be a really important offering
to the church.
>> Jesse Zink (01:02:01):
Well, thank you and.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:02:02):
Sorry, go ahead.
>> Jesse Zink (01:02:03):
Well, thank you and thank you for all the work that you
and Loren do on this podcast.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:02:08):
Thank you. Well, we always end with a word
of peace, so may God's peace be with you,
Jesse, and also with you.
>> Loren (01:02:23):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
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(01:02:44):
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POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this
out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source
for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is designed
to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the
tools you need for impactful ministry. And now
for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Loren (00:43):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Martha welcomes Jesse Zink to the
show. The Reverend Dr. Jesse Zink
is an Anglican priest and also serves as
Canon Theologian in the Diocese of
Montreal. Born in Vancouver and raised
in the United States, Jesse has also served
in ministry in South Africa and in England before
(01:06):
his arrival in Montreal. Since
2017, Jesse has been principal of
Montreal Diocesan Theological
College, or as it is widely known,
Dio. Dio is an ecumenical
theological college serving the Anglican and
United Churches of Canada and is affiliated with
McGill University. His latest book,
(01:28):
published in the fall of 24, is
Faithful Creative 15 Theses for
Christians in a Crisis Shaped World.
He is the author of four other books about Christian
theology, Christian mission, and Christianity in the
non Western world, including Backpacking through the
Anglican Communion and, uh, Christianity and
Catastrophe in South Sudan, Civil War,
(01:50):
Migration, and the Rise of Dinka
Anglicanism. Please take a moment
to rate and review this episode on whatever
podcast platform you're listening on. And if you find the
episode helpful, please share it with a ministry friend.
Our mission is to help you and your church walk
faithfully into the future.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:16):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am your
host for today's episode, Martha Tatarnick,
and I'm so happy today to be joined by
the Reverend Dr. Jesse Zink. Jesse,
it's great to have you on the program today.
>> Jesse Zink (02:31):
Thanks for having me here.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:33):
Okay, well, we have lots to talk about,
um, and the bulk of our conversation is going
to be about your new book. But,
uh, before we get into that, we just like to start with
some opening questions. So maybe, Jesse, you can just
share a little bit about your faith journey, what that
looks like in the past and what it looks like
(02:53):
now.
>> Jesse Zink (02:54):
Yeah, uh, well, I'm a binational
child, born in Canada, uh, raised in the United
States, but, uh, a, uh, child of
the church, um, born and baptized into the
Anglican Church of Canada and raised in the Episcopal Church in the
United States and now serving back in the Anglican Church of
Canada. So, uh, the church has, uh, Long
(03:15):
been important to me. And you know, I think
in the baptismal service when the congregation, uh,
pledges to support the child in their life
of faith. Uh, certainly I've been the beneficiary of lots of
people in my life, um, my parents
and my family. But, uh. Loads of other saints of the
church who have raised me, uh, in the life of
(03:35):
faith. Uh. But I would say that my faith really
became my own, uh, in part,
uh, through experiences in university, but also afterwards
when I had the opportunity to live and work,
uh. Um. In cultures, uh, outside
of my own. Uh, first in Alaska, uh.
Uh, among Alaska native people. And then in South Africa
(03:56):
working, uh, at a church ministry there. And so, uh.
The intercultural part of my faith has
always been really important. I find that engaging with Christians
from other cultural backgrounds has always helped me deepen
my own faith, broaden my horizons on what it means to
be, uh, a Christian. And
that's what, uh, has led me to
(04:16):
my work today. Um, my work in theological education.
Um, and in this work of theological education,
there's a significant intercultural component both in
what we're offering our students, but also the
backgrounds, uh, that our students come from.
Uh, so I would say I was raised in, uh, the North American
church, um, but have a real connection to and sense
(04:36):
that the body of Christ transcends, uh, the barriers
and boundaries, especially the cultural boundaries,
uh, of our own time. Uh, and
that offers this vision, uh, of what,
uh. Um. A reconciled body can look like to the
rest of the world.
>> Martha Tatarnic (04:52):
That's beautifully said. And that, uh,
intercultural
influence, um. And formation definitely comes through
in your book as well. So, uh. That's
great. Um. Is there a spiritual
practice that you are finding particularly
meaningful now?
>> Jesse Zink (05:12):
Um. One of the things that,
uh. Has been really meaningful to me is
singing. Um. Uh.
Uh. Uh, I love singing. Uh.
I love congregational, uh. Or community
singing. Um. That doesn't mean I'm good at it.
Um. I'm guided by words that,
um. I've heard attributed to Ralph Waldo Emerson.
(05:34):
I think the world would be very quiet if no
birds sang. But those that sang best.
Uh. And I love, uh. Gathering together
a group of people, uh, with hymnals or other
musical resources and just sitting around and singing
together. Uh. I didn't say. One of the other parts of
my spiritual journey has been having a lot of
(05:54):
deep friendships with people from other traditions outside
of my own Anglican, uh, Episcopal tradition.
Uh, and for me, I've had some deep relationships with people
from the Anabaptist or Mennonite background where
Communal singing is really important and I've learned so
much uh, from them. And so, uh, one of the things that
I love doing uh, with my students, uh, in
Montreal, uh, is precisely
(06:16):
that at our retreat, at the opening part of the year,
we have a time where we sit around in a circle,
um, and uh, people share songs from
their own cultural background. Uh, we sing uh,
hymns together, uh, we talk about them, where they come
from. I mean I find the very act of singing
to be spiritually meaningful. Um, but I also find the
(06:36):
lyrics and the words to be a form of
prayer as well. Um, and so anytime I can
gather uh, people together, uh, with hymnals,
uh, or music, a cappella or accompanied,
um, I find that to be a pretty important
informative spiritual practice for me, uh, and for the
community.
>> Martha Tatarnic (06:55):
Yeah, well that sure speaks to my heart. I
mean I think for me that is the
most intuitive and
natural form, um,
of prayer, but just kind of visceral
connection with God. Anecdotally,
the best committee that I ever sat on
was um, to put together
(07:17):
a new hymnbook supplement for the
Anglican Church. And like for months and
months and months, our meetings were just
gathering around a piano and singing through
like all of the new hymns that were coming out. It was
pretty magnificent.
Day long meetings were never so fun.
(07:40):
All right, well we definitely wanted
to um, make sure that we have the
most amount of time in today's conversation
for your book which uh,
is just being released. It is called
Faithful Creative
15 Theses for Christians
in a Crisis Shaped World.
(08:02):
And uh, it is an excellent book. It's
a must read. Um, lots of
props and encouragement, uh,
for people to pick it up because you definitely
won't regret it. It speaks right into
our time and place and
uh, and the place of the church in the world
(08:22):
right now. Um, there's a lot to get
into. So I thought that it would maybe be helpful
to start
um, by getting into the book
through the title and
particularly that phrase
crisis shaped world.
Um, can you speak a little
(08:45):
bit to the pressure points that
you're particularly observing, experiencing in
the world around us right now that lead to
that definition of a crisis shaped world?
>> Jesse Zink (08:58):
Well, I think uh, the word
crisis is used a lot. Right. So,
uh, climate crisis, housing, uh, crisis,
migration crisis, opioid crisis,
opioid crisis, affordability, mental health,
uh, crisis, anxiety, loneliness, depression,
etc. Right. Uh, and
(09:18):
uh, I heard this word which is
beginning to be used more often, the word
polycrisis, uh, which is
uh, as it sounds that we live at a time not just of One
crisis, but of many and importantly that
they're interrelated in such a way that it
makes it difficult to disentangle. So the climate crisis for
instance, is related to uh, migration,
(09:41):
right? Um, economic
inequality is related to
uh, housing, for instance. Uh, and there's lots of ways
in which we can see those, uh, interweaving and
entanglement. And I experienced it
in my own life, right? It's not just an academic thing, but
I experience the sense of ah,
anxiety, concern, uh, about uh, the
(10:03):
state of the world, um, as it relates to
climate, for instance, as it relates to
economics. Um, I'm somebody
for whom uh, the world, the
globe is an important frame of reference in part because
of where I've lived and where I've traveled. And
so crisis shaped world is important to
me. Um, and so in the book I focus
(10:25):
particularly on climate,
on economics, uh, and on
migration, um, tracing the ways in which
they're uh, interwoven with one another.
Uh, and I also though wanted to
frame this and encourage us as
Christians to think about and talk about, uh, the
(10:46):
economic system in which we find ourselves, uh,
and in which we live. And again partly that just
emerges from my own sense of
where we are. You know, every year at
Christmas, I really struggle in December,
um, because I just see how
uh, economic values are taking over a
Christian holy day. Not are taking over, have completely
(11:08):
colonized and taken over a Christian holy day.
I mean, I don't like that as a Christian. But more than that,
I see the kind of pastoral impact it has on people
as so many people, Christian or not, are trying
to respond to, uh, to live up
to some uh, unattainable standard. And I think
that's not really what the Birthday of the Prince of Peace,
(11:28):
uh, is all about. Uh, and then
there was the pandemic. So the COVID 19 pandemic was
an acute moment of crisis. And it just
felt to me like it revealed so much,
uh, that was uh, true about
who we are, um, it revealed our
interconnectedness, uh, our ability to
rally together for a time, um, but also
(11:50):
our inability to sustain that for a long period of
time. Uh, our lack of trust in one
another, uh, and in. In our institutions, as we
saw during vaccination campaigns, for instance.
Uh, and so, uh, I wanted to. To say
something about all of that. Um, I'm the kind of person who
thinks through my fingers, like I think when I'm writing. And
initially I sort of began to write
(12:13):
about the church, you know, after
the pandemic. But then I realized nobody was going to want to
read a book with the word pandemic in the title because,
um, I'm sick of the pandemic. Um, and if
I was sick of it, nobody else was gonna buy that book. And
also I thought that really the issues we were talking
about are so much broader. The pandemic was one
instance of a broader situation of poly crisis.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:36):
Mhm.
>> Jesse Zink (12:37):
And that's what I wanted us to think about. So that's
really what motivated, uh, or
you could say that's the point of departure, uh, for this
book.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:46):
Yeah. Okay. I just want to pick up on a couple of things
there because I think that
what the pandemic also revealed
in a big way to me and I think to many of us,
like when our regular patterns of,
um, church and church gathering were shut
down, um, like,
(13:07):
why does it matter to keep going
if the church doesn't
speak to those
major crisis points that the world is living
through? Right. Like, I
felt like in a huge way
that unless I was convinced
that the church had something to say to those
(13:29):
points of crisis, then I
was done. Like, it just like, was not
worth it. It didn't, like, matter enough if
it didn't speak to that. So, like,
that interrelated piece,
um, is also
very much connected to the life of the church.
(13:49):
Right. Because each of those pressure points that you
identify, um, have
implications in the life of the church as
well.
>> Jesse Zink (13:58):
And it's certainly the case that people in our churches are
thinking about these things because they read the news and, and
watch the headlines like we all do and live
in the world. And I've really found, actually in,
you know, I've been talking about the material that's in this book
for a little while now, uh, to different
audiences, and I've really found just one of the
responses people give me is
(14:21):
this sort of relief, like, thank you for naming these
things which have felt to me so significant,
and yet I'm not sure how to,
uh, approach them or even know
that my faith might have something to say to that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (14:35):
So, like, where do you see,
um, these pressure points
bubbling up in a specific church way? Like,
what are the conversations that you're hearing in the life of the
church, uh, that also
get interwoven with these
planetary crises?
>> Jesse Zink (14:54):
Right. Well, because, uh,
the other place in which we use the word crisis, uh, it's
not nearly on the same scale as climate crisis, for instance,
but the crisis of the church, uh,
and for those of us, uh, like you and me, who
serve in mainline Protestant backgrounds in the United
States or Canada, Uh, we can certainly narrate
(15:15):
stories of church decline in terms of
attendance, in terms of property ownership.
Uh, we don't need to rehearse this.
The statistics here, they're different for, uh, every
denomination, uh, anyway.
Um. Uh, but I think
the sense that I've had coming out of the
pandemic, um, what. What really
(15:36):
crystallized it, perhaps we were there already, but what really
crystallized it is, you know, as I said, I've been in the
church my, My entire life, and my entire life
people have been saying, oh, the church is in decline. There's
going to come some moment when we're really going to have to make some big decisions,
decisions about things. And I think that moment is
here.
>> Martha Tatarnic (15:53):
Um, uh, or maybe like 10 years ago.
>> Jesse Zink (15:56):
Exactly. But. But maybe we're finally realizing it.
Right? Uh, we're,
um. That things can't keep going the way
they've always been going. Um, and,
uh. So we need to talk about that. And I think the
other thing, though, I wanted to say about
crisis in the church is a sense that.
And I say this, um, with a
(16:18):
lot of love, um, for the church and as a
child of the church and a servant of the church, that
sometimes I didn't always get the sense in the church we were having
the conversations we needed to be having, uh, right
now, that. That we weren't quite
reckoning with the nature of the situation, uh,
as it is, um, and that
(16:39):
we weren't, um.
Uh. Well, that the church sometimes had become so
wrapped up, uh, in itself, um, but also
so wrapped up in the structures and the powers of this world,
um, that it was unable to see the situation,
uh, in which it found itself. And so
I, uh, really wanted to say, and
(17:00):
speak to Christians and say, look, let's think
about this broader context, um, and then let's talk
about how we respond to it with the good news of Jesus
Christ.
>> Martha Tatarnic (17:09):
Yeah, I think that, um, that word that you used
a minute ago, relief, um,
is very much a feeling
that I had very, ah,
strongly reading your book and that I've had in our
conversations over the years
because we kind of
travel in the same Anglican Canadian circles
(17:32):
and, uh, have talked about some of this stuff over
the years. But, um, that,
like, sense of relief, to name it, like,
this is what's actually going on. And to me
that is really connected to hope, like,
being honest about what is going on,
um, to me is not just like a big exhale. It's
(17:52):
also like the start of hope.
And you frame that right from the beginning of this book.
You say that uh, this book is
born from a great sense of possibility and
expectation about what Christians can offer
to a hurting and changing world. So
I just wondered if you wanted to speak for a moment about that
(18:13):
Hope. It's in your title and it's
like right in the introduction of the book.
>> Jesse Zink (18:20):
So the source of hope, what makes me
hopeful, uh, ultimately is the life, death
and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the knowledge that Christ
will come again. I mean that, that is
the point of departure. That's gospel, uh,
good news. Um, obviously that
takes some unpacking which is part of what I'm
(18:40):
uh, uh, writing about. But you
know, ah, at its core
hope um, is a virtue that puts us on a
timeline of God's action. We uh, look back to what God
has done in the past, we look around
us to what God is doing in the present and we look to the
future as well, uh, knowing that God,
(19:01):
uh, will act in the future,
uh, and that makes us hopeful.
Uh, now I want to be clear what Hope is not
right. Hope is not optimism. Uh, hope is not the
sense that we just need to sit back and let God
sort everything out. Hope, uh, I
think I use the phrase hope, uh, is a kind
of, uh, no options left hanging on by your
(19:23):
fingernails kind, uh, of virtue. Uh, you
wouldn't choose hope, uh, if you had a choice about
it. Um, and, and I've sometimes
said somewhat in jest, but I think perhaps it's true
that um, the mood in this book that I
was going for at times was, was bleakly
hopeful, um, hopefully more hopeful
than bleak. Um, but, uh,
(19:46):
but, but I think that's, that's what it's about.
And in how does God act? God uh,
acts for abundance of life, uh, for fullness
of life, for wholeness of life. Uh, in Scripture
that's described variously as the kingdom or the
reign of God, as shalom,
as righteousness, um, as
peace, um, and that's good news because
(20:08):
it's good, um, and it's new. We don't
find that kind of life uh, anywhere
else. Uh, and so the
hopeful piece is to know that
my role, uh, our role as Christians in this
time and place is simply uh,
what it has been for Christians across history,
which is to proclaim the gospel afresh in
(20:31):
this generation, um, to say,
okay, given this context, a context
of a crisis shaped world, uh, in a
church that's perhaps in a crisis of its
own, what does the good news of Jesus Christ
have to say, uh, to this context,
uh, and I'm not persuaded by Stories
(20:51):
of church decline. Um, I don't think the
church is going to die, um, partly because of the great
promise of Jesus that the gates of hell will not prevail
against it. Um, but I do think the church is
going through a pretty big period of change and
transition. Um, and that
feels very wrenching and difficult and confusing for those of
us who are in the middle of it. But honestly it also
(21:14):
feels immensely energizing and exciting.
Um, because I know that, that God is working in our
midst and God will continue to work, uh, and
leading us always towards this quality of
life of um, communal life, uh,
in relationship with one another, in relationship with
Christ and in relationship with uh, the world around
us that we can't find anywhere else. And so I can't
(21:36):
think of anything else I'd rather do than tell
people about that, um, and try to uh,
enact it and live it, uh, and proclaim it.
So that's hope right there.
>> Martha Tatarnic (21:47):
Yep, that's hope. And you know, I think
the other part that's
like really integral to that hope is
like the kingdom of God is actually not
something that we're called to make happen
or to build or to
um. Like we can, we can get
(22:07):
on the train, we can, um, we can get
better at um, bearing witness
to it, we can get. Sharpen our
language and our eyesight for being able to perceive
it. But it's actually like not up
to us to make it happen.
>> Jesse Zink (22:25):
Uh, no, no it's not. Uh, but I think
what you say is, is uh, that. That doesn't excuse us
from doing nothing.
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:32):
Um, no, no.
>> Jesse Zink (22:33):
What it leads to, what knowledge of the kingdom
leads to is it leads us to live
now like things will one day
be. Um, you know, that, that we're trying to give the
foretaste of it, uh, in our common life. And
we'll fail, um, because, because we're, we're human beings.
But from time to time, uh, we'll get glimpses of
it. And as you say, uh, part of it is to, to see
(22:56):
that, to point it out to other people and say, this is what
this looks like. Mhm. This is what we're trying to offer to other
people.
>> Martha Tatarnic (23:02):
Mm, mhm. Absolutely. Yeah.
Um, we don't, we're not in charge of making
God show up like God is on it.
Um, so
you have 15 theses. Um, each
one is its own chapter. It's a great
organizing principle for the book.
(23:24):
I um, think that it
involves quite a lot of discipline to
um, sort out those 15 theses.
Because as you say they're all so
interconnected. And so there's a lot of,
um, chapters referring back to previous
chapters and that kind of thing. But how did
you arrive at those particular
(23:46):
15.
>> Jesse Zink (23:48):
Yeah. Well, let me just say a word first about Thesis as a
structuring device. Um, many of your
listeners will probably know that the thesis has a somewhat
august, uh, role in Christian history.
Notably, um, Martin luther in his
95. Um, so I. I'm not
necessarily trying to associate myself with that. But I think what
Luther recognized is that a, ah,
(24:09):
declarative statement, which is all that a thesis is a
declarative statement, is a great way,
um, to invite discussion,
um, to invite response. And, uh. And
so that's really what I'm interested in. Uh, you know, this book is a
contribution to his discussion, uh, and an
invitation, uh, for a response. And the reason that I
chose Thesis also is that,
(24:32):
uh, you know, probably like you, I go to a lot of church
meetings. And I was kind of getting tired
of just the amount of rhetorical
questions that I heard there. Like, well, what would it be like
if. Or imagine if we could do this?
Um, and I just wanted to say that
there have been several meetings I sat in where I thought, okay,
let's try to answer that question. Let's not just ask it
(24:54):
now. Look, I know how important it is to ask good
questions. Um, uh, but at
some point I just want to try to answer them. And,
uh, I will have failed. Um, if you
read this book and you find yourself agreeing with all
15. Um. Because as I say, this is
an invitation for conversation. And maybe in 10 years I'll
come back and be like, oh, I don't. Don't agree with that one anymore.
(25:17):
Um, and so I found that the thesis
was, uh. Uh. I wanted to write a book
in a way that was really accessible, um, for
people in congregations, uh, for clergy of all
educational backgrounds. And that the thesis was a really
helpful structuring device that allowed me to talk about a
broad range of issues. As you say, interconnected,
(25:37):
but still a broad range. Even though some of these
theses could be whole books in themselves.
Um, and, uh, maybe they one day will
be. Um. As for how I got to 15,
um. Well, I originally wrote about 19
or 20. Um, some of them aren't ready for prime
time. Uh, some of them just didn't
(25:57):
really fit. Um, and then I
did try to find a kind of narrative
arc. Beginning, um, with the idea of
polycrisis and diagnosing where we are. And
then thinking about this idea of resistance to the
powers of this world, um, and then,
uh, ending with a sense of renewed, ah,
church. There's lots of things I didn't write about. You know, I work
(26:20):
in theological education. But there's almost nothing in this
book about ministry, um, uh, or the
ministry of the church as such. Um, there'd
be more I'd want to say about the
connection of the church and what renewal of the church looks
like. But at some point you hit word count limits. And
15 was a nice number. That was that.
(26:40):
So maybe there'll be a volume two, or maybe
it'll turn into something else. We'll see.
>> Martha Tatarnic (26:46):
Yeah, definitely. Um, it is
a conversation starter. And,
uh, a variety of conversation starters.
I wanted to drill down into
chapter three. I suspect that anybody
reading your book might find that
one of the chapters becomes
(27:06):
kind of the lens through which all of the other
chapters you end up reading. And for me, that was chapter
three, um, which is called
Christian Formation is, uh,
not Failing, it's being Defeated.
Um. I might not have the exact wording of that.
Right. Um. Yeah,
(27:27):
Christian Formation is not failing, it's being
defeated. Um,
so when I was reading this,
uh, it just really spoke
immediately to
the three really unhelpful
stances that I see Christian leaders,
um, getting themselves into.
(27:48):
Uh, more than anything
else. Um, I think that a lot of
Christian leaders can feel extremely
guilty and, uh,
inadequate, uh, to
the job of trying to save the church,
which, you know, I think we easily sort of get
(28:08):
ourselves into thinking that that's our
job. Um, I think on
the flip side of that, there can be a lot of false
bravado about, um,
how well things are going and,
um. And how confident we are
in having the right answers
(28:29):
and the right formula sort of
nailed, uh, down.
Um, which tends
to ignore, uh, just sort of
the
overall market, um,
economics that we're buying into
when we think that it's sort
(28:50):
of about succeeding, uh, for the
greatest market share. Um, and then I
think kind of in the middle of that
bravado and that inadequacy,
there can just be a lot of learned
helplessness in, um,
leadership ranks. Because you can
(29:10):
feel so
disempowered in the face
of, like, these massive forces that seem to be
working against church, um,
success, for lack of a better word.
Um, so I
found the talk in this
chapter about defeat
(29:33):
to be really
helpful, very honest,
and then ultimately hopeful. So
can you just talk about
defeat, um, of Christian Formation?
>> Jesse Zink (29:49):
Um, well,
um, first of all, I'm glad to
know this was like a chapter that unlocked things for
you. Um, because in some ways it was
for me as well. Some of these theses, you know, you're
seeing about the 48th draft, by the time it
finally works its way in the print, this one, it's about the fourth or
fifth draft. Like, it just sort of. It just sort of like, came
(30:11):
out of my fingers and I was like, ah, I think. I think now
I understand what I'm trying to say. Um, so what
do I mean by the distinction between failure and
defeat? I mean, one way to think about this is in terms
of sports teams. If you're a fan of a sports team,
right? There's a difference when you're a sports fan
of, uh, between rooting for a team or
(30:32):
when your favorite team, you know, right from the beginning of
the year, it's clear they're not going to do very well, right? They fight
among each other in the locker room. They don't practice very
well. It's like a rebuilding year or something. The owners
say, uh, and everybody's concerned about their next contract,
not about executing their plays on the field. Right? That's a team
that's failed. A team that's been defeated, though,
(30:52):
you know, uh, uh, I've certainly rooted for teams in the
past that have played well all season. You know, they practice
well together, they execute their plays, uh,
and then they lose on a last second play
to a team that just happens to be stronger or
better in that moment, and that's defeat.
Um, I would much rather be the fan of the
(31:13):
second, uh, of the team defeated than the team that
fails. And I think you're right. The way you began
by diagnosing the three ways in which
we reacted in church, um,
I really experience all of those at various
points. Um, but certainly I felt failure in
my ministry, right? Like, I felt like a failure. And I
(31:33):
know how debilitating that feeling can be.
Right? It just makes you want to give up. Uh, it makes you want
to say, well, we tried, but we
failed. And, and what I want to say about
that is that that diagnosis puts
all of the attention on ourselves, right?
It's. It's an individually oriented one, or it's a
(31:53):
communally oriented one.
Um, but what I'm saying, and as you say, this
is the third chapter, so it comes at the end of the first section of the
book where I'm trying to think, uh,
apocalyptically, uh, thinking about,
uh, unveiling the structures and the powers that exist in
this world that work against Christian witness. Right?
We as Christians are not the only people trying to form
(32:16):
people in this world, uh, there are lots of other powers
that are doing that as well. And I speak, uh, in the previous
chapter specifically about, uh, economic powers and the
way that, uh, our economic values are
forming, uh, who we are, uh, as people.
So, uh, if I just go around thinking myself a
failure because my program didn't work out, then I'm thinking
(32:36):
all about myself. And I'm not thinking about the structures
in which I find myself. But if I begin by
saying, look, I. Or we as
Christians are not the only people who are trying to form
people in this world. There are other powers out there
as well. If I can see those
powers, uh, those structures, those
principalities, uh, then I might say,
(32:57):
you know what? It's not that I'm failing, that I've done
something wrong. It's that I'm being defeated by something
that is stronger than me, uh,
stronger than us. Uh, and that
if I start talking about defeat,
um, then it's not quite as
debilitating a feeling. Um, to be
defeated is not to be
(33:18):
defeatist. Um,
and. And that's, I think, a really important
place in terms of opening up, uh,
the rest of the book. And I think there's a theological
lens on this one as well, which is
that when Jesus was hanging on the
cross, um, a lot of his followers
(33:38):
thought that he had sailed, right? But
he hadn't. He'd just been defeated. Uh, you know,
he'd spoken, uh, with confidence. He'd,
you know, gone around. He'd. He'd done. And been
precisely who he had been sent to earth, uh, to
be. And for a time, uh, the
other powers of this world, which he was deeply aware
(33:58):
of, the other powers of the world were stronger than
him. And of course, the great good news is
that Good Friday is not the end of the story,
right? That that defeat on the cross,
uh, is not all there is. And so
if we can reframe our conversation away
from ourselves and our failures
or successes, as you say, that
(34:20):
bravado around it. But then just say,
well, this community trying to form people, what
is the broader context in which we find ourselves?
And how might that context be working
towards and helping us form people in the way of
life, of the kingdom of God? Or more likely,
how might that way of life be working
(34:40):
against, uh, posing obstacles to our
efforts to form people, uh, into the way of life,
of the reign of God? Uh, and we might
be defeated. We probably will be defeated,
given the strength of the powers of this world.
But that doesn't mean that we need to be
miserable. Uh, Feel like we're miserable
(35:02):
failures. What it means is that simply in that moment
of defeat, God, uh, is
waiting for us and working, uh,
with and for and among us, uh, to bring
new life and new victory, uh, out of those moments of
defeat, uh, in precisely the same way that God
has always done.
>> Martha Tatarnic (35:21):
Yeah, I think that um, that
connection and um,
the framing of Jesus
as being defeated on the cross,
um, I have just found myself going back to
that time and time again. Um, and
it goes back to kind of where you started around
like what is the place of
(35:43):
hope out of which you write this book? And
that's it. Right?
Um, sorry, go ahead.
>> Jesse Zink (35:50):
Well, I just think, you know, if we think
that Good Friday is not the end of the story, we don't just think
that. We believe it and know it to be true.
Um, when I am defeated, my
response is not necessarily
to try harder and work harder to believe that if I can
just find the right thing, I will do it.
(36:11):
Um, the response is to be
more aware of our surroundings, um, more aware
of the society in which we live and how it's structured in
ways that are working for or against, uh, what we're trying to
do, uh, and then it
is being faithful, um, to
that deposit of faith, to that good news
(36:31):
and seeking to uh, uh,
proclaim it, um, and enact it and embody it
in the life that we share together in the Christian
community.
>> Martha Tatarnic (36:40):
Mhm. Yeah. Um, and
that apocalyptic lens, um,
runs as a very strong thread
throughout the book as well.
Um, that
clarity around um, what
is being revealed and then
(37:02):
I think the clarity about
um, what our response
can be,
um, when we are
honing in on what is actually happening.
>> Jesse Zink (37:18):
And I think I want to be clear because
especially in the sort of Anglican and Episcopal circles
or mainline Protestant circles that you and I spend time
in, uh, Martha, um, the word
apocalyptic might not be one that naturally comes to people's
lips. Um, and I want to be clear that
all I'm saying when I use apocalyptic language
(37:38):
is simply to, as the word suggests, to
unveil, to reveal, um, the powers
of this world, um, and to be aware about how
they're working against the kingdom of God. And that the
response of apocalyptically minded
Christians, um, is not
revolution, um, it's not quietism, it's
not giving up all hope, uh, it's resistance.
(38:00):
It's about living, uh, in our common life,
a way of life that resists the dehumanizing
powers of this world and offers
a, ah, fullness and abundance of life, uh, in our
common life. That we can't find, ah, elsewhere.
>> Martha Tatarnic (38:16):
Yeah, absolutely. And that I think really
brings me to my next question,
um, which is
around that alternative that I think
that you set up so beautifully
throughout the book. Um, that you
know, when we are very clear
(38:37):
about those dehumanizing
powers of this world, the
principalities and powers that do not bring
life, that are working against
um, kingdom values,
then we can also
um, I think lean
into what
(38:59):
we offer in contrast to
um, to that alternative. So I hear, I hear
throughout the book, um,
ah, the phrase like um,
to be in this world but not of it kept coming
to mind because what you
seem to be inviting is um, a
(39:21):
really deep, ah,
engagement and deep
conversation with the. What is actually happening
in the world around us.
Um, but then
that stance of resistance, that alternative,
um, to be our
offering,
um, it's not always
(39:43):
easy to do that. It's not always easy
to um, either
be clear about the waters that we're swimming in
or to figure out how to step outside
of those waters that we're swimming in, um,
to claim something else. And so I
thought maybe we could just
um, get a little
(40:07):
concrete here with um,
our listeners who are, you know,
trying to provide,
to lead faithful Christian communities.
Um, like what are some of the
ways that the church
is just by its nature
already doing that alternative. Like,
(40:30):
so we're not kind of adding
um, onto the job
description or like more things that we
should be doing as churches and
as Christian leaders, but we can
instead like kind of embrace what the church
is by nature as that alternative.
>> Jesse Zink (40:54):
Yeah, I think this is uh. This. This is really significant
because uh, you know, as you and I
know and as we've discussed, sometimes part of our
response, our default as Christians is to think, oh, we got to
start something new.
>> Martha Tatarnic (41:06):
I know.
>> Jesse Zink (41:07):
Right. We need to launch a new program here. And
there's. There's nothing wrong with, with. With new programs
necessarily, although it does tend to put the
focus on us. Um, and I'd like
to put the focus on God, I guess. Uh,
but I do think, uh, you know,
ultimately what we are doing in this, you
know, apocalyptically inclined perspective that I'm
(41:30):
trying to put forward here is we are trying to
craft a model of life in our Christian communities that
resists the powers, uh, of this world.
Uh, and that ultimately,
uh, our Christian
practices give us lots of guidance on that already.
So I end the book, uh, perhaps not surprisingly
(41:50):
for somebody who's Anglican, um, with the Eucharist,
with Communion, um, and
thinking about how the Eucharist
already provides us Some guidance for what
it means to live, uh, a
resistant life. Uh, and,
you know, as I say, I'm an Anglican. The sacramentalism
of, uh, Anglicanism has always been very appealing to
(42:13):
me. Uh, you know, let's look at
what we're doing. So, you know, in the Anglican services that I
attend, there's a moment where we pass the peace with one another.
Right. Um, well, if we are sort of going around
shaking hands or these days waving at one another,
but our community is riven by some sort of
conflict, as is true in some of our communities,
(42:33):
then perhaps we should think about that. What do we think
about that disjuncture between what we're saying about ourselves,
liturgically reconciled people, and how we're actually
living our lives? Um, if we're confessing our
sins as we do, uh,
when we celebrate the Eucharist, but, uh, we're
still participating in systemic, uh, structures of
oppression and sin in this world, then, uh, let's
(42:56):
pause on that for a while. Let's ask ourselves what
confession, um, and repentance and amendment of life would look like
not just for the individual sins that may
come to mind when we are, um, bidden to confess our sins.
But let's also think about what
confession and repentance and amendment of life might look
like, um, in terms of our participation
(43:16):
in the structures of this world. Because I do want to be clear
that, you know, although I may be apocalyptically
inclined, uh, in identifying powers, I'm quite clear
that I participate in all of those. And our churches do as
well. Um, so what does repentance look
like? Ah, there, you know,
I have a. I have a high view of the. Of the
Eucharist. Um, uh, which means that I
(43:38):
do see that when the community of followers
of Jesus gathers together with bread and wine around the
table, um, this is a moment of the.
In breaking of the kingdom of God, um, in the
way that it shows us our right relationship
with one another, our right relationship with God, our
right relationship with. With the natural world and the bread and
(43:59):
wine that we bring forward and place on the
table. Um, this is what. This is
what, uh, it's all about. Um,
and. And that part of our job in
ministry is simply to point out when
we're seeing that happening already. So that
when we see reconciliation happen, uh, when
we see, uh, you know,
(44:21):
diverse communities created
here, here in Canada, of course our population is growing very
rapidly with immigrants from all over the world. And when I
see the intercultural communities that are being formed in some of
our churches, I think this is exactly what
God is. Is. Is calling us to be.
Um, let's lift this up. Let's hold this up and
say, uh, this. This is the
(44:44):
quality of life that we're trying to offer, uh, to other
people. Um, and so
I just find in what we are already doing and what
Christians have been bidden to do for 2,000 years,
uh, so much resource, uh, for
ministry. Uh, you know, so the Eucharist is just one
example. Uh, there's
(45:04):
several other I could give. Uh, but
all of it oriented around
having, uh, the Christian community, uh, be
this community that offers the foretaste of
the wholeness of life, um, that God is working to
bring about.
>> Martha Tatarnic (45:20):
Yeah, yeah. I was. When I was reading
that last chapter about the
Eucharist, I was thinking about
the practice of ablutions
that, um, we. I mean, not all
Christian traditions do that, but certainly in the
Anglican Church, there's this very
careful process of how
(45:42):
the, the leftover bread and wine
needs to be consumed and treated with care
or returned to the earth or, um, you
know, whatever. Whatever it is. And
uh, there can be like, very detailed, uh,
cleaning practices and that kind of thing. And
I, I feel like that kind
(46:03):
of, uh,
lens, like, is something that I try
to bring to my own.
Um, food consumption patterns,
you know, in our household, how we treat leftovers, how
we, um, how we shop, how we
make sure that things aren't going to waste, how we compost,
you know, all of those. Those processes. So I
(46:25):
love that. That idea of,
um, of the Christian community,
like forming us to see the world
differently and to engage differently with the world.
Um, not
to kind of add to people's to do
lists, but are there like
(46:46):
one or two examples that you would point to
of, um, kind of new
projects or new programs, uh,
that you have seen churches
embrace that. That look like that kind of
faithful, creative, hopeful
church.
>> Jesse Zink (47:06):
Well, I'm always wary of answering a question like this
for reasons you've already, uh,
indicated.
Um, you
know,
ultimately I think I want to answer that
question by saying,
uh, what are some of the characteristics of a
church that's living like this? And one of the words I didn't use in
(47:29):
the title of the book, um, but I explore,
um, in one of the chapters is the word
confidence, uh, a word that literally means to
live with faith. Uh, and I tell this story
about, uh. You know, I'm a tall person. I used to work
at a summer camp for a long time as a teenager and in my early 20s.
And I used to walk around kind of hunched over as a
lot of tall teenagers going through puberty do.
(47:51):
And my summer camp director was actually
taller than me. Um, he's a wonderful man.
Um, this is a Christian summer camp. And one day he came over to
me and he said, jesse, you're exactly as tall as God
made you to be. So roll your shoulders back, stand up tall,
and be who God has made you to be. And I've
never forgotten that. And I probably still slouch from time to time.
But, uh, I try to remember that. And
(48:14):
that's the kind of living I want to call Christians to
is that confident Christian living. Which isn't
an overconfidence. It's not ego driven,
arrogant.
>> Martha Tatarnic (48:23):
Um, it's not arrogant.
>> Jesse Zink (48:24):
It's not arrogant. But it's simply saying, this is who God has
created us to be. Uh, you know, in my
tradition, I would describe that as a eucharistic community.
Uh, so let's roll our shoulders back and
be who God is calling us to be.
Uh, we might not be the same huge congregation, we might
not have our gracious and lovely buildings, uh, in the same
(48:45):
way, but we're still a, uh,
people committed to following the way of Jesus in the
world, welcoming, uh, strangers, uh,
not being afraid to take risks, not being afraid to make
mistakes. M. Knowing that the future
will be different from the present, but still being
faithful, uh, to the same God.
Uh, I mean, you did ask me for examples. I'll just give
(49:08):
one example because I was just attending this recently,
uh, the church that I attend. And I'll just say I had nothing
to do with this besides, uh, showing up, um,
for the last several months, uh, once a month has been doing,
uh, intergenerational, uh,
communion preparation and
reflection. Morning on Saturday morning. And it
begins with intergenerational
(49:30):
making, uh, of bread. So, um, making a different
kind of bread every time and thinking about where the food comes
from and how we make it. Uh, and then we
actually sit together and we talk about
some aspect of Eucharist,
uh, uh, again, in as
intergenerational a fashion as we can manage. And then
we eat together. So we eat the bread and we eat some other
(49:53):
foods that Jesus might have had. And in terms of the way it
is drawing together people from diverse
backgrounds, bringing, um, to the surface
all kinds of different views, uh, on the
Eucharist, actually engaging us in
activity, building, uh, uh, this
community, forming this community, uh, in a
eucharistic fashion, uh,
(50:14):
has just been wonderful to see. Uh,
and it does take some work, uh, to prepare
that, uh, as I say, I have nothing to do with it,
uh, besides eating the bread.
Uh, but it's been wonderful to see the
formation effects that, that is.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:30):
Yeah, that's a beautiful example and it really ties
together a lot of the
themes that keep coming up in the, in the book.
Um, okay, let's, let's go with a
final question before we have our wrap
up. Um, questions.
You work in a theological college, you
(50:51):
form Christian leaders.
Um, if
you could sort of say like what you would
love for a Christian leader
to take away from your book to hear and what you're
trying to say, what, what
would that be like? What do you most
want new Christian leaders or
(51:14):
continuing Christian leaders to take away
here?
>> Jesse Zink (51:20):
It's not about you. Uh, you're not the
Messiah. Uh, I'm not going to save the church and neither
are you. Uh, there already has been a Messiah,
uh, and so
uh, don't think it's all about
you. Don't burn yourself out,
uh, either implicitly or explicitly
making yourself the center of the story.
(51:41):
Uh, instead,
um, think about what a wonderful
message, uh, that we have to
proclaim, ah, to enact,
to embody, uh, in this
time, uh, and, and
that that message is ultimately
a message that's not about
(52:04):
information. I mean it is about information, but it's
a message that leads to a quality of
life, um, and it is a quality
of life. The um, words I use are
fullness, a wholeness of life, an abundance of life
that we can't find uh, anywhere
else. And yes it's
true, um, we uh,
(52:26):
need all of our resources of
creativity uh, to
proclaim and enact that message today because
we live at a different time, um, but we're
no different from Christians at any other point in the last
2,000 years. Um, so
what that means is we need leaders
who are uh, willing to
(52:48):
take risks, uh, as I've said,
um, uh, who are
willing to speak and to act
and to paint a vision of what God is doing in the
world and what God will be doing in the world,
um, to say that there is a future,
um, um, and we are
headed towards that, uh, even though in our
(53:10):
crisis shaped world it doesn't always feel like
that, uh, that
we exist on a timeline of God's action in the world
and we are one little piece of it, um, but
what a privilege it is, uh, to be that one little
piece of it. And so let's be attentive to
our context, uh, be attentive to the ways in which
(53:30):
it is pointing us away from that kingdom of God.
And then let's, as I say, take all of our
resources of creativity, of uh,
faith, uh, of hope, um,
and dream and imagine, uh,
the kind of community, uh,
uh, that we can be, that,
that embodies uh, that way of life.
(53:52):
And we know, uh, if we've
studied Christian history that
just what that looks like will be different in
different contexts and it will be different than
it's been in the past, uh, because the
church has always been changing, uh, but
that doesn't mean, uh, that God isn't
(54:13):
faithful because God is faithful,
uh, and God continues to sustain
us, uh, in this ministry. God, uh,
is the center of the story, uh, and what a wonderful
story that is for us to be a part of.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:27):
Yeah, beautifully said. Um, that word
attentive is a theme word in the book
and it's a really rich word.
Um, and I, I do
think that it is actually
enormously,
uh, empowering and
energizing to uh,
(54:49):
dispel the, the main
character energy that we can sometimes
put on ourselves when we're in the life
of the church. Right. Like, yeah, we're not, we're
not in charge of saving the church. We're not the
Messiah. And um,
that is very empowering
(55:10):
to know that. Um,
so, yeah, it's a
fantastic book. Um, I
am so appreciative of the
conversations, um, that
you and I have been part of in the Anglican
Church, um,
(55:30):
how the book really kind of speaks, I think, to
uh, what we're hearing from leaders
and congregations across Canada,
uh, across North America, um,
how we're feeling, how we're responding.
Um, this book is really a must
read for all
(55:52):
of us.
>> Jesse Zink (55:53):
Um, from your lips to the listeners ears, I
hope. Thank you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (55:57):
Yeah, yeah, no, um, it's
really good. Very using that word
attentive again. Very attentive to
what is happening and how people are feeling.
And you will walk away from reading
this book with a sense of hope
and uh, empowerment. So
(56:17):
thank you, Jesse.
>> Jesse Zink (56:18):
Thank you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:19):
Okay, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll come back
for uh, some rapid fire closing
questions.
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast.
We are going into our closing questions
with Jesse Zink and
uh, Jesse, if you were pope for a
(56:40):
day, what would that day look
like? What would be on your agenda?
>> Jesse Zink (56:47):
I'd, uh, probably be torn between asking, uh, for a
private tour of the Vatican museums or writing the
encyclical that allows women to be ordained.
I hope I would have the fortitude to uh,
resist the temptation and write that encyclical and not go to the
museum all day.
>> Martha Tatarnic (57:03):
I don't know. Maybe you could split your time between the
two.
Okay. What theologian or
historical Christian figure would you want to meet
or bring back to life, have supper with?
>> Jesse Zink (57:18):
Um, well, I'll just take
Jesus, uh, off the table.
Ah. Uh, you know, and
I'm a very historically inclined person, uh,
as this book will make clear. So there's. There's no shortage of people.
I'd love to pick, uh, their brains. But I think in the
context of this conversation, in this book, uh, I would
pick two. I, uh, grew up at a church called St. John's
(57:40):
Episcopal Church in Northampton, Massachusetts.
Uh, and, uh, there were two people who
were associated with that church long before I ever arrived in
the early 20th century. The, uh, first was a man named William
Stringfellow, who, as a child, grew up, uh, at that
church, uh, as I did. Uh, he went on to be a lawyer,
uh, and a member of the Episcopal Church and a
(58:00):
theologian who wrote a number of really wonderful
books. Uh, and he's also a very
apocalyptically inclined, uh, theologian.
And I think I'm influenced a lot, uh,
by him. He's also a very sacramentally oriented
theologian, uh, so I would love to
talk to him. The other person, uh, who used
to be the priest or the rector of that church in
(58:22):
Northampton was a man named Stephen Bain, who,
uh, went on to be a bishop in the Episcopal Church and
then went on to be, uh, in the 1960s, a really
critical figure, uh, in the global, uh,
Anglican Communion. Um, and Bain wrote a lot
as well, and he had a lot to say about how God is
still acting in the world, um, but how the church needs
(58:42):
to change. And. And so, although I don't quote either
of them directly in this book, I feel that both of
them are big influences on me. And I would
love for the three of us to have dinner sometime and
talk about our common connection, uh, to the same church and
hear what they have to say about how, uh, our
world is today.
>> Martha Tatarnic (59:01):
You know, I think that, uh, this. That
is always my favorite question in these
interviews that I get to have. And
nobody has ever given those particular
answers before, so that's delightful.
>> Jesse Zink (59:15):
I love that little Billy
Stringfellow as he was when he was growing up in Northampton.
Um, I would love to
have been fly on the wall for some of his Sunday school
classes.
>> Martha Tatarnic (59:28):
Oh, that's great. Just a fantastic
answer. What will history remember
from our current time and place? Place?
>> Jesse Zink (59:37):
Um, well, maybe this isn't a very positive answer, but
I sometimes think the idolatry
of economics, uh, of money, of
a, uh, deeply constrained notion of value that
thinks the only thing that matters is the price of an
object. I, um, think the way in
which that is damaging us, uh, and
leading us, uh, to, among so much else, a
(01:00:00):
deeply disordered relationship with God's creation.
Um, I hope we can transcend
that, uh, and so we can look back on it as something
in the past.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:10):
Yeah, that's right. What are your
hopes for the future of Christianity that might be connected
to your previous answer?
>> Jesse Zink (01:00:20):
Well, I would just, uh, go back to the word confidence that
I used earlier. Um, let's roll our shoulders
back, stand, uh, up tall and not with
arrogance, uh, but with
boldness, uh, and humility. Uh, let's
be the confident, uh, Christians God has called
us to be in the way that we live our lives together in
(01:00:40):
community.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:41):
Okay, where can people find more about
you, Jesse?
>> Jesse Zink (01:00:47):
Uh,
I do have a website, uh,
JesseZink.com that I try to keep up to date with
at least information about the books that I've written. Uh, I'm not so
good about, uh, other things. I am fortunate that I have a name
that's somewhat unusual. Um, so if you Google
Jesse Zinc, uh, you'll be able to find it. Uh, I
must say I'm so confused by the present state of,
(01:01:09):
the present fractured state of social media these days that
I really struggle to stay on top of where things are happening.
And usually I just throw up my hands and walk away from it all.
But, um, uh, you
can find me on Facebook, you, uh,
can find me on the website. You, uh, can just google my name and you'll
find my email address at work and just drop me a line. I love
(01:01:30):
having conversations, uh, with people, email, uh,
or otherwise. And happy, uh, to hear from
you, uh, if and when you have a chance to read this book about what
you thought.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:40):
Okay, well, thank you so much for your time today,
Jesse. Thank you for, uh,
the thought and the
attentiveness that went into writing it.
And um, I
think that this is going to be a really important offering
to the church.
>> Jesse Zink (01:02:01):
Well, thank you and.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:02:02):
Sorry, go ahead.
>> Jesse Zink (01:02:03):
Well, thank you and thank you for all the work that you
and Loren do on this podcast.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:02:08):
Thank you. Well, we always end with a word
of peace, so may God's peace be with you,
Jesse, and also with you.
>> Loren (01:02:23):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But
(01:02:44):
before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the
POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this
out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.
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