November 19, 2024 • 50 mins
In this conversation, Reverend Jocelyn Jones shares her journey of faith, trauma, and healing, emphasizing the importance of community and therapy in overcoming personal challenges. She discusses her experiences in ministry, the barriers women face, and the significance of understanding one's value beyond societal definitions of success and failure. The conversation highlights the need for spiritual practices and wise counsel to stay centered in God's guidance while passionately sharing one's ministry. In this conversation, Rev. Jocelyn Jones discusses the importance of effectively communicating and 'selling' one's ministry, the challenges of valuing one's time and services, and the significance of setting boundaries by learning to say no. She also shares insights on guiding others in their ministry journeys, reflections on leadership, and her hopes for a future of Christianity that emphasizes healing and love over harm.
Rev. Jocelyn is an author, speaker, and entrepreneur. Jocelyn's background as a journalist, executive director of a nonprofit, and community leader allows her to connect with people from all walks of life. She received her bachelor's degree from the University of Iowa in journalism. After receiving her B.A., she earned her master's degree in social work and her master's degree in theological studies. Jocelyn published her first book in 2019, Breaking the Power of the Mask. Jocelyn is an ordained minister and the President of Faith on the Journey, a Christian Counseling company specializing in grief and trauma. She is a Master Facilitator with the Trauma Healing Institute and the founder of the Women in the Ministry which helps women to start, grow, and sustain transformative ministries that change the world.
Website: jocelynjjones.com
Social: IG: @jocelynjjones
FB: @connectwithJocelyn
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@MeetRevJocelyn
Free Ministry Launch Starter Kit at sisterstartyourministry.com
Episodes Referenced:
Casey Tygrett: https:/https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/casey/
Kinsie Tate: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/restore-clergy/
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you
with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:43):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren
Richmond, Jr. Welcomes the Reverend Jocelyn Jones to
the program. Reverend Jocelyn is an author,
speaker, and entrepreneur. Jocelyn's background
as a journalist, executive director of a
nonprofit, and community leader allows her
to connect with people from all walks of life.
She received her bachelor's degree from the University of
(01:06):
Iowa in journalism. After receiving her
B.A. she earned her master's degree in social work and
her master's degree in theological studies.
Jocelyn published her first book in 2019
called Breaking the Power of the Mask.
Jocelyn is an ordained minister and the president
of Faith on the Journey, a Christian counseling
(01:26):
company specializing in grief and trauma.
She is a master facilitator with the Trauma
Healing Institute and the founder of
the Women in the Ministry, which helps women to
start, grow, and sustain transformative
ministries that change the world. A
reminder. Before we start today's conversation, please take
a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
(01:49):
review, and share Future Christian with a friend.
Connect with Loren, Martha, and Future Christian
on Instagram. Shoot us an email at, uh,
laurensonatemediapro
uh.com
with comments, questions, or ideas for
future episodes. We appreciate your
voice in how we faithfully discern the future of
(02:10):
the church.
>> Loren (02:20):
Okay. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am Loren
Richmond Jr. And today I am pleased to
be joined by Reverend Jocelyn Jones. Hello and thanks
for being here.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (02:29):
Thanks for having me, Loren. I'm excited to be here with you today.
>> Loren (02:34):
Yeah, great, great, great. Uh, looking forward to this
conversation. Share if you would, just a little bit about your
faith background, your story, what that looks like in
the past and what that looks like today.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (02:45):
Yeah, well, I grew up attending
a Catholic church. And so from
a little girl, I was around religion,
but I didn't fully understand, you know, you just kind of go
through the motions, right? And so that was, for
me, grade, uh, school, high school. But it wasn't until I
went to college, I was on a big ten
(03:05):
campus and Campus Crusade for Christ
was present. And so they introduced me
to this thing Called relationship with God. And
then I also found a church home while I was
in college that I attended over summer breaks.
Now in college, there's a lot of temptation. There's a lot going on.
So I wasn't really serious about my walk in
(03:25):
college, but after I graduated,
I was like, no, for real, I want to do this thing. And
so I actually found a church home and
began this journey of really discovering
what a relationship was like. And for years
it vacillated between religion and relationship.
But over the years, I've discovered that there's such a
(03:46):
big difference. And so I've
been growing in this journey with my
walk with God over many, many years.
>> Loren (03:55):
That's awesome. Thanks for sharing that. I gotta ask, can
you share which.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (03:59):
Big ten camp is University of Iowa?
I'm a Hawkeye.
>> Loren (04:03):
Okay. I have some, uh, have a good friend from
Iowa. So I guess go Hawkeyes. Right?
>> Rev. Jocelyn (04:09):
All right. Right, right.
>> Loren (04:12):
Uh, and I didn't ask you. I'm sorry, I'm out of
sync today. Anything else you want listeners to know about
you? Uh, that it's not in your bio, I
suppose.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (04:22):
Uh, so there's, there's a number of things that are not in my bio. I
think the bio talks about your highlight reel.
But I think it's also important to
recognize the moments in your life that aren't
celebratory, but you survived. And so for me, I'm a
trauma survivor. I've experienced sexual trauma
and domestic violence. I've also
(04:42):
gone through a challenge of divorce. And
that's something that I never thought I would go through.
And so those are some moments in my life that were
major crossroads. But God has
been so good to me, sustaining me through those
moments and helping me to heal through community,
through the work, through my faith. And
(05:03):
so I think that's important because it gives context as to
why I'm passionate about the work that I do in
ministry.
>> Loren (05:10):
Yeah. Let me, let me ask this, if I
may, if you're willing to share.
Obviously,
I've never experienced, uh, some of the things that you've
experienced, and there are countless others who have
similar tragedy and trauma experiences in the life. I'm
curious if you're willing to share just some elements
of faith practices that have
(05:32):
sustained you or been nourishing to you as
you've processed that challenges
M. Mhm.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (05:39):
Yes. I wish I could say, Loren, I started
off the right way in trying to manage some of these
things. I think that oftentimes we cope the
best way we know how to
survive. So when I first experienced
sexual trauma in my early 20s. What I
did was actually I threw myself into ministry.
I threw myself into work, which is interesting
(06:01):
because that's celebrated when you like overwork
yourself and just keep yourself busy. And
I didn't realize I was just trying to run from my pain because the
silence can be so loud when you don't want to be
alone with your thoughts.
>> Loren (06:14):
Mhm.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (06:15):
So for me, I pretended and wore this mask
for many years. And it wasn't until I
realized how it was impacting my relationships
and how I was struggling with like being able to let
anyone in beyond just like superficial level
that I was like, I need help because I'm self
sabotaging. And so in my early 30s,
that's when I really said, okay, I need to start seeing a
(06:37):
counselor. I. I need to begin working with
someone. So therapy was one of my
first steps in dealing with that. And I was in
and out of that for some years. Now I'm
regularly working through therapy because I realized
that healing takes time. It's a
process. And so that was one element of
it. Another element of my journey was
(06:59):
really educating myself around different
healing practices that integrate my
faith. Right. So I was
introduced to the Trauma Healing
Institute, which uses Bible and
mental health principles to create this small
group Bible study to help people heal from trauma.
(07:20):
And when I went through this process, I'm like,
this is amazing because it combines
my faith with mental health principles to
create community so we can begin to heal.
So I went through that process and then became a
facilitator with the Trauma Healing Institute to start leading
groups for others. And I discovered along the
(07:40):
way that when we are able to find safe
spaces to share our sacred story, to be
known and loved and not judged, and we begin
to face the stuff that we've been running
from, we can begin to
heal. I lament, Loren, on
how many times I have
interacted with individuals who have been
(08:02):
carrying their trauma for years.
I did a healing group about
two, three weeks ago and there were women in
the group who were 60, 70 years old
who were still carrying stuff from when they were
six because they never talked about it.
>> Loren (08:20):
Yeah.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (08:20):
And so that's something I want to share with your listeners.
That it's this misnomer that time heals
all wounds. If you leave it up to time
alone without ever dealing with your
stuff, you are going to carry that with
you.
>> Loren (08:35):
Well, this is good stuff and it's not necessarily what we're here to
talk about, but I appreciate you sharing that. I'm
just I'm still kind of thinking
about even the beginning of that story, about
how I think this is the challenge. Right. And
especially in ministry, is that
it's. It's so hard where
(08:57):
overworking yourself, like you said, can be
seen as a good thing. And often
these practices, they can be
rewarded for being not healthy.
Um, Reverend Jocelyn is the author of the book
Sister Start yout A Guide to Start,
Grow and Sustain a Transformative
Ministry. Why don't you share about kind of what inspired the book?
>> Rev. Jocelyn (09:20):
For sure. So I decided to write
this book because I remember when I
first felt called to start my. My own ministry
and I had a lot of questions.
I lacked clarity. I wasn't sure which direction to
go in. And I was looking for the book that I
eventually wrote several years later.
>> Loren (09:39):
I've heard that before. Right. Sometimes folks have to write the book they
need to read.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (09:43):
Right, Exactly. That's really what it was.
Because I think it's relevant, actually, Loren, that I talked a
little bit about my backstory around trauma healing, because that's
my initial ministry. I created a Christian
trauma healing ministry. We do counseling, we do groups across the
country. But it didn't just happen like that.
And so in this book, I talked about the
(10:03):
process of actually stepping out and answering
the call to ministry beyond the walls of the
church. Many times we're familiar with
ministry within the context of our sisterhood ministry, our, uh,
ushers ministry, or maybe international ministry as
well. But what if we're called to create a
parachurch ministry because the church is not
just the walls?
>> Loren (10:24):
Mhm.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (10:25):
And some of us are called to go out and start one. But there's an
element of entrepreneurship, if
you will, that people need to be aware of. There's
different, uh, elements in terms of really getting
yourself out there, getting your framework that I
didn't have clarity about. I didn't have mentorship to help me
with that. And so that is something that I wanted to provide
to other women in particular, because
(10:48):
there's also, Loren, unfortunately, certain
dynamics for women who are called to ministry that we also have
to uniquely overcome. And you're shaking your head because I think you know
what I'm talking about.
>> Loren (10:58):
Well, I'm fortunate not to have to experience them
firsthand. But I'm thinking of, you know, the,
the women I know in ministry who've
shared their stories with me. I mean, I think I'm remembering.
I think in your book, right, you talk about, was it
a seminary, some kind of post, some kind of
educational experience where the fact that you are pursuing
Ordination really made you
(11:20):
Persona non grata, right?
>> Rev. Jocelyn (11:22):
Mm mhm. Mm, mhm. I think you're talking about
when I was pursuing my, uh,
biblical counseling certification and
I went through this whole process for over a year, uh,
submitted my application, submitted this 40 page
paper, and they did not even consider
my test or exam because they did not believe in
women being ordained. And that was, for me, it was a
(11:45):
crushing moment because, oh, I can only imagine.
Yeah, I, I felt, quote unquote,
at the time that I wasted my time. Nothing's wasted,
we know, in God's economy. But it was difficult because
it's like, wait, just because I'm a woman, that's. You just.
You're not considering this, you know, and so
it was a life lesson around. First, you have to
(12:05):
do your due diligence on who you are
attempting to align yourself with when you are
stepping out and doing anything. But
also I had to take that moment and
say, well, are you just going to just
like lick your wounds and feel bad about yourself in this
moment, or are you going to pivot and do something
different? And I did something different. I started my
(12:28):
own practice as a result. But, uh,
I share that story to say there's
countless stories of women who are denied
positions, who are overlooked opportunities, who
are told that they should not preach, they should
not lead. I, I get sometimes hate messages
on social media for the work that I do because they're saying
I'm speaking, um, blasphemy. So
(12:51):
it's a thing that we have to deal with as
women who are called to lead.
>> Loren (12:56):
Wow, I'm so sorry. Uh,
again, I'm in a position where that's not something I have to deal
with firsthand. So I'm sorry you have to deal with that.
And I'm thankful that you've been able to
persevere. Uh, I wrote this down
here. I'm really appreciative of this
quote that you said, nothing is ever wasted in God's economy.
(13:16):
And I'm just thinking about how devastated I would have
been if I'd have gotten through a similar
situation. You write in the book that
we are more than what people have said about
us. You and your ministry are more than what people have said
about you. You obviously
in that experience, if I can
(13:36):
extrapolate, like
you were an experience where people said about you, you were
not cut out to be a clergy
person. You are not.
I mean, uh, talk more
about,
talk more about that and I'll listen here because I think
(13:56):
I've succumbed to that even myself. And
I know folks
listening as well, who we can
get trapped in that. What
are people saying about me? What do people say about my
ministry? Um, and
you've had to overcome that firsthand, so share more about that, if
you're willing.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (14:16):
Yes. I still have
to work through that. Sometimes. There's this
deep desire, I think, that many of us struggle with, to be
accepted, to be loved. And putting
ourselves out there and being vulnerable and
answering this call, uh, we can.
We're going to have resistance. We're not meant for everyone. We're
(14:37):
not everyone's person. And
understanding that there are certain
people who we are called to, who
you can uniquely reach, Loren. There's people that you
can only reach that I can't reach, and vice versa.
And so, uh, with that understanding, we have
to understand that we can't
(14:57):
deny the people who we are called to for the sake of the people
who are going to hate on us anyway. Like, there's
going to be people who are going to see hatred. They're going
to say all these negative things, and a lot of times they're
projecting their own insecurities, their own
fears, their own limited mindsets onto
you, and it has nothing to do with you. They don't
even know you yet. They are
(15:19):
judging. And they don't have, um,
the. They sometimes don't even have
the courage to step out and do the work that you're
doing, yet they still criticize. That's their issue.
But I've learned that I can't
let these people stop me from
the mission that God has given
(15:39):
me. And I'm not sure if this is
directly answering your question. I feel like I kind of got passionate
when.
>> Loren (15:46):
That's okay, that's okay.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (15:48):
But that's where I'm at, Loren,
because at the end of the day, I'm on assignment,
just like you. Even with this work, with your podcast,
you're on assignment here. So we
can't get lost in the fact that people will love
you one day and hate you another. We see that
with our savior, Jesus Christ. You know, on Palm
(16:08):
Sunday, they celebrating. On Friday, they was
yelling crucified. People do that
sometimes. But at the end of the day, we have one
person who we need affirmation from, and that's
God. And outside of that, people,
you know, they'll fall in line.
>> Loren (16:26):
Yeah, yeah, this is good. So let me ask.
And this again gets back to your point about nothing ever
being wasted in God's economy. You
write about how what
we perceive as failure can still
be used by God and Let me speak here
just from my own context. Like, I am
(16:46):
someone who let a new church start
that did not make it through Covid. So when
I say, like, firsthand, like, I know,
I know failure, and it sucks, if I can
be brutally honest.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (16:59):
I know.
>> Loren (17:00):
So, uh, I mean, I think that has been
the hardest thing for me to get
my head around, my spirit around, is that,
you know, talk more about
why what we define as
failure should not be seen in that
way.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (17:19):
Yeah, I appreciate your authenticity around that, Loren,
because sometimes we do over spiritualize the fact that
sometimes the stuff we go through just sucks.
And we. And we have to name the pain
around that because it doesn't feel good to suffer, it doesn't
feel good to fail. And
yet with that, when
(17:39):
I look back at major turning points
in my life, I've
experienced tremendous growth from
it. And I've also seen
God's hand in it. Now, here is the
thing, though. When we go through certain
events where we would describe it as a failure,
(17:59):
there's a choice in this. Sometimes
we can look at it and say, this
failure is a reflection of me. And this is
where we mess up. Because we take these failures.
>> Loren (18:10):
I'm listening.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (18:11):
We take these failures personal
and we take it on as our
identity, as it relates to our value.
But our value is not rooted in our
accomplishments. That's not who we
are. This is something where it didn't work out
quite how we wanted it to work out. We.
In your case of the story you shared, you were being obedient
(18:33):
to God. Um, let's face it, Loren, you had nothing to
do with this whole pandemic situation, Right? Like, you
couldn't control this, you know? But
yet, and still, like we sometimes question,
I could have done more. I should have done this. I should. When certain
things are out of our control. But what was the
beauty that came from the process that you
(18:53):
went through, the people who you touched, the connections you made,
the lessons that you learned, the growth
that can come from that. You take that with you.
Just like going back to the story of me being denied
the certification through the biblical counseling. If I said
that was wasted, that's a lie. For a year, I
learned all this information. You can't take that
(19:14):
away from me. The lessons you can't take
away. And we understand that from
certain things that we go through. Even I, uh, talk about
trauma. There's a thing called post traumatic
growth. You can
grow outside of the events that you've
gone through. If you do the work. It's about
framing, it's about learning, it's about getting the
(19:36):
support. But I think going back to your original
questions, failures don't define your
value, just like success. And this
is kind of a paradigm shift, right? Like I think we can mess
up when we get so caught up on our high horse
around our accomplishments, establishing our
value, because when those things are taken away from
us, then we're setting ourselves up for
(19:59):
a crash. So I think if we are able
to know our value in Christ and
say that again, going back to what I said earlier,
I'm being obedient to God. If this, if
this thing falls through God, the
results are up to you. I'm doing what I'm doing to
be faithful to you. And that's how you
navigate the failures of life.
>> Loren (20:21):
Yeah, I think it's. Forgive me if
this is too,
um. What am I trying to say,
but I'm just thinking like, uh, you know, the joke's kind of on
them. Like you got the training and you're doing the work, so
the jokes on them because.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (20:38):
Exactly.
>> Loren (20:41):
Um, I think this kind of
relates here. You talk about this in your
book too, about the importance of God being our
guide, not ourselves. And
again, I'll kind of just speak from my own experience. I think it is kind of easy to
get lost in the
process. The energy, the momentum, what
(21:01):
have you of a new endeavor.
How do you keep yourself centered? How
do you advise those you're working with to keep
themselves centered and focused on God? Because
again, when there's. We kind of have a culture that's
really excited about new. Anything new gets really
a lot of momentum, excitement around it. And sometimes it's hard
(21:23):
to decipher between what is just like
cultural people excitement versus what God really
wants to do.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (21:31):
Mm mhm. I
think Loren, is a couple things. First, it's around
the people who are around us.
It makes a difference. Yeah, you have to surround yourself
with wise counsel. One of the things I
teach people is when we think about a
nonprofit, they have a board of
directors to advise them to
(21:53):
make sure that they're staying on the right path, to raise funds and all
that stuff. Who is on the board of directors of your
life? Who are the people who are
going to pull your coattail when they're
seeing you starting to lose yourself
in ministry? Who are the people who are going to
pray for you and not just say they're going to pray for
(22:14):
you? You know what I'm talking about? No, they actually
do intercede and undergird you in
prayer and who create that space
to call you up, to
help you to rise into your crown. That
is essential. And I've learned that along the years
that I have to have people around me to keep me
steady because I believe that there
(22:36):
are a number of people who start off in ministry with wonderful
intentions, God centered intentions.
But it's easy to lose yourself, Loren, in this
work because God has given
us wonderful gifts and we can start
leaning into the gifts that came from God
and thinking that that's coming from our own strength. And
(22:57):
we start making the focus about us versus who
we started this ministry for, to glorify in the first
place. I talked and I uh, warned sisters who I uh,
coach in ministry saying, hey, we have to be
careful not to be doing work for
God without God because you
can easily fall into that trap and
start going through the motions. You can pray and
(23:19):
do say all the things and scream out
scriptures, but your relationship with God could be at
a deficit. And so we have to guard
against that and we have to prioritize our
spiritual practices to make sure that we are
operating in the spirit and not the flesh.
>> Loren (23:37):
Yeah, that's so important.
I mean, I can't help but think too, uh, I remember
many years ago when I was in Bible college,
there was young men who,
they could kind of just ride the coattails of their
good story. And it wasn't even like,
you know, they had a good conversion story or
(23:58):
transformation story that they could kind of ride and they didn't really
have to stay faithful and humble. And I remember
kind of being
kind of shocked when I remember, you know, someone who
I looked at as, you know, who was an
upperclassman to me and someone who I looked at as
a spiritual leader or mentor kind of admitted to me like he had just been kind
(24:18):
of like riding the coach. Tales of a good testimony,
not staying faithful, listening.
So I appreciate that.
Mhm.
Um, let me shift gears here. We've kind of been really
talking theological,
philosophical or big picture. Let's
(24:41):
dive down into some real nitty gritty because I think
this is something that I thought was really the other side
that was real helpful about your book. When you're,
when we're, when we're thinking about someone who's starting a new
ministry.
You talk about the importance of.
You use these words. I won't. These are your words.
(25:02):
Selling your ministry or your idea. And uh, again I want
to frame it from this context. In church
spaces, in Christian spaces like that,
selling idea can be seen as a dirty word. And
certainly we all know marketers and salespeople who
are icky and gross. Talk about
why it's important to really
share passionately what you feel like
(25:25):
you've been called to.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (25:27):
Mhm. I love this question, Loren, because you're
right. I think that the word sell sounds so
taboo. It sounds icky to people. But I learned
this even before starting my own ministry. I was an
executive director of a nonprofit for almost
10 years. And I had to
learn that in order for me to get
funding for these children so we can do
(25:50):
this work, I had to sell
funders, donors on the fact
that this is the place where you need to give your
money. And using some of the same
skills from uh, another life, I used to sell insurance.
I had to use those same skills to be able to
tell the story and convince people that
(26:10):
this work is good and this is a
place where you can invest your
resources. We will be a good steward
over these resources to bear fruit, to do
great godly things. And so the
skills are very transferable from
selling insurance to selling the vision for a
nonprofit, to selling, quote unquote,
(26:32):
your ministry. Because at the end of the day,
what you are doing is conveying a message to
people that what we have to offer you
from a place of service.
>> Loren (26:43):
Mhm.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (26:44):
That's the thing, that's the difference, the motive. I
know that what I have to offer is helping
people. My motive is not to cause harm, it's to make
a difference. And for some people,
for example, going back to my nonprofit story,
I knew that there were donors who weren't going to
necessarily be in the trenches doing the work every day. But
uh, they wanted to find a place to steward
(27:07):
their money, to make a difference. So I'm helping
you by showing you that this is a place where we're
responsible, we can make that difference that you desire to make.
And it's a relationship there based on trust, based on
integrity. So when we're doing the work of the
Lord and we a, might need
resources to raise capital or we
are providing a service with integrity
(27:29):
to help people, we're doing them a, uh,
disservice if we're not vocal about the fact that we
have this to offer to, to serve the
world, right? And I tell people it's not a good thing
to be in the witness protection program about your
ministry. Like we can't do that
because it's denying us the ability to
(27:49):
help others. So as long as your motives are
pure, you know, you are, uh, coming from a place
of service and you're offering something
that's quality, then yes, Be bold about that.
The more the better. And those who you're not for, they
won't, they won't, you know, be in your ecosystem
anyway. But some people are praying for your
ministry. You are the answer that God is
(28:12):
using. And so people need to know about you.
And that's the whole point of that. Loren.
>> Loren (28:17):
Yeah, that's really good. Let me ask this
too, because I think it's related.
Something that I struggle with, and I know many
other folks that I've run into in
these kind of spaces struggle with is like
compensating yourself adequately,
like. And uh, again, I hate to say, like
to use the language, like billing appropriately. How do
(28:40):
you coach, you know, upcoming
leaders to like really adequately
compensate or bill for their time? Because I
feel like I, I make this mistake over and over
again myself.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (28:54):
Oh, such good questions, Loren. This is a
struggle, right, for a number of reasons, because
many of us, we have worked in the church for years.
Most of the stuff we do is volunteer based, right? So we got
that going then. For the women who I work with,
sometimes we see this even in the corporate
arena, we are often underpaid or we struggle to
(29:14):
assert ourselves in terms of our needs. So we have all these
dynamics going on. And I had
to learn that when we are offering a
quality service, just because we
are Christian does not mean that
we don't get compensated fairly for this. Because
I can't go to the people who I got my
(29:35):
mortgage from and say, hey, yeah, I can't pay this
mortgage this month because they're gonna be like, uh, yeah,
that sounds like a personal problem. You know, like. And
so when it comes to this, I believe
that if you are offering, say, for
instance, I teach on domestic violence and I'm a
speaker. If I'm going to do a keynote on
(29:55):
this topic, the fact that I'm Christian,
or if I was someone who was doing this from a secular
standpoint, I still should be compensated for that because
I'm bringing a level of expertise. I've done the
work. And so for
many of them, um, many people who I work with, I have
to first remind them of the value
that they bring to the table. Um, your
(30:18):
education, your years of experience, the lessons that
you've learned, the quality and expertise
is not diminished because of your faith. Now,
yes, there's certain things that I do as a
volunteer and I'm, I'm led by the spirit in
terms of what I will give my back my time for, because I do believe
in that. But I also think that you should
(30:38):
be Fairly compensated for the services that you offer
in the marketplace. And, uh, over time,
your confidence to charge more will
increase. And the last thing I'll say about
this, Loren, is money is a
resource. It's not the source. It's a
resource. And if we
(30:58):
look at it like that, we are not making money in
Idol. That's not the thing.
But I want to be able to
create a ministry that reaches far and
wide to change lives. And for me
to be able to do that, I need resources for that. I
need to not be up to my eyeballs in debt.
>> Loren (31:18):
Yep.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (31:18):
So I have to be able to be compensated
to pay my staff to do the things I need to do.
And so there's an element of being able to operate in
Kingdom business as an entrepreneur
to be able to sustain the ministry that God has called me
to.
>> Loren (31:33):
Yeah, this is good. And this leads into, I think, a
related question. You write that
the word no was one of the most powerful words you learned
in your beginning season of ministry. So
I'm thinking again, you probably know
better than I do because I'm not good at no. But
I can imagine there's going to be times where someone's going to come to you with a
(31:55):
great offer that might really be
a promising event. But you might have to say no, because reasons
of resources, capacity, talk
more about that.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (32:06):
Yes. That I've had to work on
as a recovering people pleaser, M who
cared so much about what people thought about me and not
wanting to sound mean, I would have
a neat jerk reaction of saying yes to, uh, so many
things. And I'd be stressed out, out of my mind.
And sometimes I would be almost resentful because
(32:26):
I would have these events coming up and I'm like, why did I commit
to this? Blah, blah, blah. And
it's my fault, all my fault. And so I've
had to learn to take pause and really
think about, okay, Jocelyn, is this something that
you want to do? Okay. Okay. You want to
do it? Okay. Are you the best person
(32:47):
for this? Okay.
>> Loren (32:49):
Okay.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (32:49):
Um, this is the timing
for this. Okay. So asking
these questions and then also being clear about
my priorities. In this season of
life, when you don't have priorities or
clarity of vision, then you can let other people
set the priorities for you. And at that
point, you are all over the
(33:11):
place. And so for me, as it relates to
certain opportunities, for example, I had someone approach
me for speaking engagement on a topic that I
typically speak on, but it was something
where they didn't have, uh, they had a small budget and that
was fine. I said, you know what? I know someone who's perfect for
you, who, uh, is a mentee of mine who
(33:32):
was. I was able to give them that opportunity. And so
it's one of those things where you can delegate, you can pass
gracefully on opportunities, and you can just let people
know that this sounds wonderful. I'm so grateful that you
considered me. But at this time, I'm
unable to commit to that due to other priorities. But thank you
for keeping me in mind and make that referral. I'm learning to
(33:52):
do that as an act of grace to them and to myself.
>> Loren (33:55):
Yeah, that's great. Because I think, I mean, if
one, if anything, you're giving someone else a good opportunity.
Right. Um, in
that, the graciousness. I wrote this down.
So let's review this because I think this is good. So
again, do you want to. Because I think we all do a lot of things we
don't really want to do. Right. Am I the best person? Is the
timing right. And do they align with my
(34:17):
priorities in life? Because I
know for me, like when I'm haggling about
something, reviewing
what my priorities are, my values are, or
whatever really is helpful for me.
M. So again, this is kind of perfect.
Like, let's skip to this question. Then you write
(34:38):
about the maybe later journal. So let's talk
about the maybe later journal, how that might apply
here.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (34:45):
Oh yes, I made that for myself
because I am a
creative. And uh, for anyone who's listening, when you
get the visions from God and you're like, oh, this is such a great idea,
and you just getting all these downloads and sometimes I
realize, listen, you could get overwhelmed with all your
wonderfulness and be
like a squirrel and just not
(35:07):
completing anything. And so I had to
create. I actually create, created a planner for
women in ministry. And I
put in the planner. The maybe later list
is a section in planner where, you know, you can
capture your ideas in a. In a place
that you can continuously go back and review it
(35:27):
later, but you do have to ask those
questions. Uh, again, it goes back to questions. All
right. Is this a vision that God gave me for
this season or is this something that's for 10 years from
now? Is this an idea that I have
just because it's a trending fad? Mhm. Is this
something that's in line with my
(35:47):
mission and ministry in the season
and so it allows you to capture it and revisit
it? I tell people, revisit it maybe once a quarter
because there's good stuff on there. But we have
to be very careful, Loren, not
to have a practice of being a great
starter and a terrible finisher. We have a whole
(36:07):
bunch of half built bridges. We build the bridge,
halfway stop, and then don't bring things to
completion. So I'm big on
focusing on a particular project each
quarter and I ensure I bring that project
to completion at the end of the quarter before I take on
another major project. Because I was the queen
(36:27):
of half built bridges for the longest, but it wasn't
serving me well, it just was making me frustrated.
And so that's my new practice in order for me
to capture those ideas but focus on
completion of what's in season for
me at this time.
>> Loren (36:44):
Yeah, that's good. Let me ask this as a follow up then, because
I'm thinking about a lot of
the listeners of the podcast or pastors or church leaders. So
I'm thinking, I imagine you have fairly
similar experience yourself, mentoring and
supporting ministry
entrepreneurs. So someone comes to you and it's
like, uh, oh, I have this idea for a ministry I want to do,
(37:06):
which is oftentimes what a pastor
or church leader will experience. Someone who's part of their
congregation coming up to m them, hey, we need to do this, that or the
other. And you know, again, this
is assuming that you're in good relationship with
them and you feel like you have a good kind of
tone or take on what is good for them and
(37:28):
what's going on in their life. How do you, how do you counsel
people to say, hey, that's great,
but this, you know, these four things, like
the timing's not right, like, how do you, how do you have that conversation with
folks?
>> Rev. Jocelyn (37:40):
I ask questions. I start off with
questions because I think when people
first are starting their ministry,
they, they might, they have this burning desire,
they want to do purpose driven work, but it's typically
not always clear. Unless you have a burning bush
moment, you're still trying to figure things
out. And so at the end of the day, I
(38:03):
continue to ask when people are
discerning, I ask them, okay, what cause
burdens you? Who are the people who you
feel called to serve? What gifts do you
have? And I start going through these
series of questions to help them
to refine their focus. And
then I asked them, okay, what gifts do you already
(38:25):
have or things do you already have going for
you that you can lean into already?
It's amazing to me how many people have
gone through these certifications or
these programs that they've done nothing with and
they have it in their Back pocket, but they start
working on something else before they actually explore what they already
(38:46):
have there. So I usually take people through this
assessment process of a series of questions to get
clarity and then say, okay, what can
we focus on first as
foundational? And I think the
one thing I've also seen, Loren, is people
can get so caught up on creating
this full McDonald's menu. And let me
(39:09):
explain that. You know how McDonald's has like, the
fries and the salad and all these side things, and
I'm like, what is your hamburger? Like
what. What is your main thing? Focus. Let's
focus on establishing that first before we
get all these side menu items.
>> Loren (39:25):
Yeah, that's good. Because, like, even thinking McDonald's has cut back their
menu menu quite significantly
in recent years just because they realized, like, they can only do,
like, they weren't. They stopped making a good burger. Right. Because they were
doing too much.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (39:38):
Mhm. Yep, yep, yep.
>> Loren (39:41):
Well, this is good conversation. Uh, let's,
let's take a break. But the book is again, Sister, Start
your Ministry, A Guide to Start,
Grow and sustain a Transformative Ministry.
Again, it's titled Sister, but I imagine plenty of brothers
or folks could really
benefit from the book. So Reverend Jocelyn, uh,
(40:01):
let's take a quick break and we'll come back with some closing
questions.
All right, we're back with Reverend Jocelyn Jones. I
always tell folks here these closing questions, you're welcome to take these
as seriously or not as you'd like to.
Uh, some folks get a little bit
hung up on the Pope question. So feel, uh, free
(40:23):
to answer as you want or not. If, uh, you're
a pope for a day, if you had some kind of
global or Christian authority,
how might you want to see
that authority or experience be for
the day?
>> Rev. Jocelyn (40:39):
Yeah, I sat with this question. I'm like, this question is super cool.
Let me really think about this here, because
I think if I was Pope for the day, I would
mandate a day of silence with
no technology, uh, and
require people to be able to just
be still and
(41:00):
to be able to reflect, commune with their God
and really reconnect with self. I think people
might be crawling and climbing the walls
with a date like that because we become
so inundated
with technology and busyness and
distractions. And again, as I said earlier, silence
(41:21):
could be so loud for people. But once
you get past the initial shock and you kind of
detox from the, from all the distractions
and you have moments to find rest in self
and be out with nature and
really explore the things that God has given us that
matter, how beautiful that is.
(41:41):
And God has given me tremendous revelations
when I actually sat in the
silence. And that's something I would
love to have people experience.
>> Loren (41:52):
Yeah, it goes back to what you said early in the
conversation about. I mean, you talked about being so
busy that you couldn't hear. But I think
so many of us, me included,
we're so distracted by the phone
or the constant inputs that it's hard to hear.
So I,
(42:13):
I've done a 24 hour silence retreat and
I hated it, but I'm sure it was good for me.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (42:20):
It's tough, it's tough. But, yeah, uh,
I think I'm trying to go on one next year for a couple
days and I feel like I'll be going through my little detox, you
know, convulsions and everything. But, ah, once you get
through day one, you can start embracing it, I
believe.
>> Loren (42:35):
Yeah, that's good. Um, a theologian or
historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back
to life.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (42:42):
I was wrestling between Peter and
Paul. I think both of them
resonates with me because of
their backstory. Their backstory is
fascinating. Paul, obviously known as Saul,
formerly known as Saul, and his backstory. But then
Peter, when he denied
Jesus, when Peter, you know, swore
(43:04):
up and down he never would. I mean, and Peter
had that wild side. I mean, he was cutting off ears. He was like,
go hard for Jesus, you know, but, but
just seeing his, his transformation and
his redemption after that
mistake is beauty in that.
And, and I think it just reminds
me of our walk because we
(43:27):
are going to mess up sometimes. And for
me, also a recovering perfectionist,
there have been many times in which I got
stuck in a shoulda, coulda, would haves. I, uh,
tell people now, stop shoulding on yourself, you know, because
it doesn't help but to
see how God uses us
(43:48):
in our mistakes and flaws and seeing how Peter
and Paul, I would interview them and say, how did you, like,
work through that? Like, what was your thoughts like, Peter,
when, you know, you realize you denied Jesus three times
and you weeped and everything. How did you get through that?
And, you know, so those are questions that I
would have.
>> Loren (44:06):
Yeah, that's good, that's good. Um, what do you think
history will remember from our current time and place?
>> Rev. Jocelyn (44:13):
That question I struggle with because
right now I feel like we're extremely
polarized. It's unfortunate
that sometimes we can
be stuck on an issue
and, uh, firmly in our beliefs to the point where
we can't disagree without cutting off
the person yeah. And that's
(44:36):
scary because we, you know, in a
cancel culture type environment,
you know, people I don't disagree
with, I don't agree, excuse me, with everything that anyone
says. Like there's going to be disagreements, agreements. Right, right. But I
can still love you. I can still at least provide space
for like conversation to
(44:57):
at least understand your viewpoint and then
vocalize mine is very
challenging in this environment when we aren't
open to hearing other
people and really listening deeply and
then still being able to love them in spite the fact
that we disagree. That is something that I'm
hoping, uh, particularly. I, uh, know this is probably going
(45:19):
to air well after the election, but you know, with
the election being very polarizing, I just
pray that we can get to a point where we can love each other
in spite of our differences.
>> Loren (45:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What do you hope then for the future of Christianity?
>> Rev. Jocelyn (45:37):
I, uh, think it's around that same lines. I think
that my hope for Christianity
is that we move beyond
religion to again relationship,
which I started this conversation talking about. I think that
religion can jack people up when we
get to be so holier than
thou Pharisees caught
(46:00):
up in certain elements of the tradition, which is
honestly a beautiful thing. You know, there's certain elements
of religion that I embrace and I love in terms of uh, spiritual
practices and I love the church.
I do think though that people can use
religion to weaponize and cause harm.
I mhm. Was talking about this. Earlier this week I was hosting a
(46:20):
Faith Leaders Against Domestic Violence summit
and I was talking to faith leaders,
uh, about the fact that the spiritual text
could be used like scripture can be used as a
weapon versus a source of healing for people.
And taken outside of context,
and this is, this is scary for someone who
(46:40):
is a domestic violence survivor to see
how this domestic violence happens to men
and women and anybody it can happen to, but
primarily women. We see m that women
are chastised and really
encouraged to stay in dangerous marriages
for the sake of religion and their
relationship with God. When God does not
(47:03):
want anyone to be abused. Right. And
so I want the church to be
trauma informed. A lot of my work is
around helping the church to become
sacred places of healing versus harm.
So that when you do find out that someone has
experienced trauma, whether due to domestic violence, whether they're
struggling with suicide, whether they're struggling with
(47:25):
depression, whatever the case may be, we
don't say, well you don't have enough faith.
We don't say words like that. No,
we, we show them love, we
connect them with Resources. And we, we
are a place that is safe for people
who are coming to the church as a spiritual
hospital. That's my desire for the church and
(47:47):
that's why I do the work that I do.
>> Loren (47:51):
Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that. I'm. I'm reading, um, a book
right now on kind of church
abuse. And you know, in that
kind of toxicity that can happen where
folks are essentially protecting the church, they're protecting the
religion, doing the wrong thing because they
think they need to protect the religion. So
I'm especially appreciative of what you said there.
(48:14):
Let's, uh, let's do this. Share if you would. Kind
of. You obviously have the book here, which we've talked about, but you
do a lot of other work, so feel free to share how
folks can connect with you, what some of the other work you do and
that in your connection.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (48:27):
Yes. So if someone wants to connect with
me, they can visit my website, jocelynj
Jones dot com. That's kind of like the
hub where you can learn more about the work that I
do from like a faith standpoint, from a
healing, trauma healing, church standpoint, my trauma healing
ministry. You can connect through there. You can also
find out about my sister Start yout Ministry Resources
(48:50):
through that site. So that is a good place to
start. I also do want to mention, Loren, that I have a free
gift to offer your listeners.
Yeah, I created a
ministry launch starter kit for individuals
who are just trying to get, you know, the ministry off the
ground. And so you can get that for free by visiting
(49:10):
sisterstartyourministry.com.
>> Loren (49:14):
Okay, let's make sure, uh, if you have not
send that to me, I'll make sure we include it in the show notes.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (49:20):
For sure. For sure.
>> Loren (49:22):
Well, this has been a great conversation. Really appreciate your
time. Always. Uh, leave folks with a word of peace.
So may God's peace be with you.
>> Loren Richmond (49:36):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
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episodes. Visit our
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find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the
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(49:58):
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out to more people. Thanks. And go in PE.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you
with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:43):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren
Richmond, Jr. Welcomes the Reverend Jocelyn Jones to
the program. Reverend Jocelyn is an author,
speaker, and entrepreneur. Jocelyn's background
as a journalist, executive director of a
nonprofit, and community leader allows her
to connect with people from all walks of life.
She received her bachelor's degree from the University of
(01:06):
Iowa in journalism. After receiving her
B.A. she earned her master's degree in social work and
her master's degree in theological studies.
Jocelyn published her first book in 2019
called Breaking the Power of the Mask.
Jocelyn is an ordained minister and the president
of Faith on the Journey, a Christian counseling
(01:26):
company specializing in grief and trauma.
She is a master facilitator with the Trauma
Healing Institute and the founder of
the Women in the Ministry, which helps women to
start, grow, and sustain transformative
ministries that change the world. A
reminder. Before we start today's conversation, please take
a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
(01:49):
review, and share Future Christian with a friend.
Connect with Loren, Martha, and Future Christian
on Instagram. Shoot us an email at, uh,
laurensonatemediapro
uh.com
with comments, questions, or ideas for
future episodes. We appreciate your
voice in how we faithfully discern the future of
(02:10):
the church.
>> Loren (02:20):
Okay. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am Loren
Richmond Jr. And today I am pleased to
be joined by Reverend Jocelyn Jones. Hello and thanks
for being here.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (02:29):
Thanks for having me, Loren. I'm excited to be here with you today.
>> Loren (02:34):
Yeah, great, great, great. Uh, looking forward to this
conversation. Share if you would, just a little bit about your
faith background, your story, what that looks like in
the past and what that looks like today.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (02:45):
Yeah, well, I grew up attending
a Catholic church. And so from
a little girl, I was around religion,
but I didn't fully understand, you know, you just kind of go
through the motions, right? And so that was, for
me, grade, uh, school, high school. But it wasn't until I
went to college, I was on a big ten
(03:05):
campus and Campus Crusade for Christ
was present. And so they introduced me
to this thing Called relationship with God. And
then I also found a church home while I was
in college that I attended over summer breaks.
Now in college, there's a lot of temptation. There's a lot going on.
So I wasn't really serious about my walk in
(03:25):
college, but after I graduated,
I was like, no, for real, I want to do this thing. And
so I actually found a church home and
began this journey of really discovering
what a relationship was like. And for years
it vacillated between religion and relationship.
But over the years, I've discovered that there's such a
(03:46):
big difference. And so I've
been growing in this journey with my
walk with God over many, many years.
>> Loren (03:55):
That's awesome. Thanks for sharing that. I gotta ask, can
you share which.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (03:59):
Big ten camp is University of Iowa?
I'm a Hawkeye.
>> Loren (04:03):
Okay. I have some, uh, have a good friend from
Iowa. So I guess go Hawkeyes. Right?
>> Rev. Jocelyn (04:09):
All right. Right, right.
>> Loren (04:12):
Uh, and I didn't ask you. I'm sorry, I'm out of
sync today. Anything else you want listeners to know about
you? Uh, that it's not in your bio, I
suppose.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (04:22):
Uh, so there's, there's a number of things that are not in my bio. I
think the bio talks about your highlight reel.
But I think it's also important to
recognize the moments in your life that aren't
celebratory, but you survived. And so for me, I'm a
trauma survivor. I've experienced sexual trauma
and domestic violence. I've also
(04:42):
gone through a challenge of divorce. And
that's something that I never thought I would go through.
And so those are some moments in my life that were
major crossroads. But God has
been so good to me, sustaining me through those
moments and helping me to heal through community,
through the work, through my faith. And
(05:03):
so I think that's important because it gives context as to
why I'm passionate about the work that I do in
ministry.
>> Loren (05:10):
Yeah. Let me, let me ask this, if I
may, if you're willing to share.
Obviously,
I've never experienced, uh, some of the things that you've
experienced, and there are countless others who have
similar tragedy and trauma experiences in the life. I'm
curious if you're willing to share just some elements
of faith practices that have
(05:32):
sustained you or been nourishing to you as
you've processed that challenges
M. Mhm.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (05:39):
Yes. I wish I could say, Loren, I started
off the right way in trying to manage some of these
things. I think that oftentimes we cope the
best way we know how to
survive. So when I first experienced
sexual trauma in my early 20s. What I
did was actually I threw myself into ministry.
I threw myself into work, which is interesting
(06:01):
because that's celebrated when you like overwork
yourself and just keep yourself busy. And
I didn't realize I was just trying to run from my pain because the
silence can be so loud when you don't want to be
alone with your thoughts.
>> Loren (06:14):
Mhm.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (06:15):
So for me, I pretended and wore this mask
for many years. And it wasn't until I
realized how it was impacting my relationships
and how I was struggling with like being able to let
anyone in beyond just like superficial level
that I was like, I need help because I'm self
sabotaging. And so in my early 30s,
that's when I really said, okay, I need to start seeing a
(06:37):
counselor. I. I need to begin working with
someone. So therapy was one of my
first steps in dealing with that. And I was in
and out of that for some years. Now I'm
regularly working through therapy because I realized
that healing takes time. It's a
process. And so that was one element of
it. Another element of my journey was
(06:59):
really educating myself around different
healing practices that integrate my
faith. Right. So I was
introduced to the Trauma Healing
Institute, which uses Bible and
mental health principles to create this small
group Bible study to help people heal from trauma.
(07:20):
And when I went through this process, I'm like,
this is amazing because it combines
my faith with mental health principles to
create community so we can begin to heal.
So I went through that process and then became a
facilitator with the Trauma Healing Institute to start leading
groups for others. And I discovered along the
(07:40):
way that when we are able to find safe
spaces to share our sacred story, to be
known and loved and not judged, and we begin
to face the stuff that we've been running
from, we can begin to
heal. I lament, Loren, on
how many times I have
interacted with individuals who have been
(08:02):
carrying their trauma for years.
I did a healing group about
two, three weeks ago and there were women in
the group who were 60, 70 years old
who were still carrying stuff from when they were
six because they never talked about it.
>> Loren (08:20):
Yeah.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (08:20):
And so that's something I want to share with your listeners.
That it's this misnomer that time heals
all wounds. If you leave it up to time
alone without ever dealing with your
stuff, you are going to carry that with
you.
>> Loren (08:35):
Well, this is good stuff and it's not necessarily what we're here to
talk about, but I appreciate you sharing that. I'm
just I'm still kind of thinking
about even the beginning of that story, about
how I think this is the challenge. Right. And
especially in ministry, is that
it's. It's so hard where
(08:57):
overworking yourself, like you said, can be
seen as a good thing. And often
these practices, they can be
rewarded for being not healthy.
Um, Reverend Jocelyn is the author of the book
Sister Start yout A Guide to Start,
Grow and Sustain a Transformative
Ministry. Why don't you share about kind of what inspired the book?
>> Rev. Jocelyn (09:20):
For sure. So I decided to write
this book because I remember when I
first felt called to start my. My own ministry
and I had a lot of questions.
I lacked clarity. I wasn't sure which direction to
go in. And I was looking for the book that I
eventually wrote several years later.
>> Loren (09:39):
I've heard that before. Right. Sometimes folks have to write the book they
need to read.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (09:43):
Right, Exactly. That's really what it was.
Because I think it's relevant, actually, Loren, that I talked a
little bit about my backstory around trauma healing, because that's
my initial ministry. I created a Christian
trauma healing ministry. We do counseling, we do groups across the
country. But it didn't just happen like that.
And so in this book, I talked about the
(10:03):
process of actually stepping out and answering
the call to ministry beyond the walls of the
church. Many times we're familiar with
ministry within the context of our sisterhood ministry, our, uh,
ushers ministry, or maybe international ministry as
well. But what if we're called to create a
parachurch ministry because the church is not
just the walls?
>> Loren (10:24):
Mhm.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (10:25):
And some of us are called to go out and start one. But there's an
element of entrepreneurship, if
you will, that people need to be aware of. There's
different, uh, elements in terms of really getting
yourself out there, getting your framework that I
didn't have clarity about. I didn't have mentorship to help me
with that. And so that is something that I wanted to provide
to other women in particular, because
(10:48):
there's also, Loren, unfortunately, certain
dynamics for women who are called to ministry that we also have
to uniquely overcome. And you're shaking your head because I think you know
what I'm talking about.
>> Loren (10:58):
Well, I'm fortunate not to have to experience them
firsthand. But I'm thinking of, you know, the,
the women I know in ministry who've
shared their stories with me. I mean, I think I'm remembering.
I think in your book, right, you talk about, was it
a seminary, some kind of post, some kind of
educational experience where the fact that you are pursuing
Ordination really made you
(11:20):
Persona non grata, right?
>> Rev. Jocelyn (11:22):
Mm mhm. Mm, mhm. I think you're talking about
when I was pursuing my, uh,
biblical counseling certification and
I went through this whole process for over a year, uh,
submitted my application, submitted this 40 page
paper, and they did not even consider
my test or exam because they did not believe in
women being ordained. And that was, for me, it was a
(11:45):
crushing moment because, oh, I can only imagine.
Yeah, I, I felt, quote unquote,
at the time that I wasted my time. Nothing's wasted,
we know, in God's economy. But it was difficult because
it's like, wait, just because I'm a woman, that's. You just.
You're not considering this, you know, and so
it was a life lesson around. First, you have to
(12:05):
do your due diligence on who you are
attempting to align yourself with when you are
stepping out and doing anything. But
also I had to take that moment and
say, well, are you just going to just
like lick your wounds and feel bad about yourself in this
moment, or are you going to pivot and do something
different? And I did something different. I started my
(12:28):
own practice as a result. But, uh,
I share that story to say there's
countless stories of women who are denied
positions, who are overlooked opportunities, who
are told that they should not preach, they should
not lead. I, I get sometimes hate messages
on social media for the work that I do because they're saying
I'm speaking, um, blasphemy. So
(12:51):
it's a thing that we have to deal with as
women who are called to lead.
>> Loren (12:56):
Wow, I'm so sorry. Uh,
again, I'm in a position where that's not something I have to deal
with firsthand. So I'm sorry you have to deal with that.
And I'm thankful that you've been able to
persevere. Uh, I wrote this down
here. I'm really appreciative of this
quote that you said, nothing is ever wasted in God's economy.
(13:16):
And I'm just thinking about how devastated I would have
been if I'd have gotten through a similar
situation. You write in the book that
we are more than what people have said about
us. You and your ministry are more than what people have said
about you. You obviously
in that experience, if I can
(13:36):
extrapolate, like
you were an experience where people said about you, you were
not cut out to be a clergy
person. You are not.
I mean, uh, talk more
about,
talk more about that and I'll listen here because I think
(13:56):
I've succumbed to that even myself. And
I know folks
listening as well, who we can
get trapped in that. What
are people saying about me? What do people say about my
ministry? Um, and
you've had to overcome that firsthand, so share more about that, if
you're willing.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (14:16):
Yes. I still have
to work through that. Sometimes. There's this
deep desire, I think, that many of us struggle with, to be
accepted, to be loved. And putting
ourselves out there and being vulnerable and
answering this call, uh, we can.
We're going to have resistance. We're not meant for everyone. We're
(14:37):
not everyone's person. And
understanding that there are certain
people who we are called to, who
you can uniquely reach, Loren. There's people that you
can only reach that I can't reach, and vice versa.
And so, uh, with that understanding, we have
to understand that we can't
(14:57):
deny the people who we are called to for the sake of the people
who are going to hate on us anyway. Like, there's
going to be people who are going to see hatred. They're going
to say all these negative things, and a lot of times they're
projecting their own insecurities, their own
fears, their own limited mindsets onto
you, and it has nothing to do with you. They don't
even know you yet. They are
(15:19):
judging. And they don't have, um,
the. They sometimes don't even have
the courage to step out and do the work that you're
doing, yet they still criticize. That's their issue.
But I've learned that I can't
let these people stop me from
the mission that God has given
(15:39):
me. And I'm not sure if this is
directly answering your question. I feel like I kind of got passionate
when.
>> Loren (15:46):
That's okay, that's okay.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (15:48):
But that's where I'm at, Loren,
because at the end of the day, I'm on assignment,
just like you. Even with this work, with your podcast,
you're on assignment here. So we
can't get lost in the fact that people will love
you one day and hate you another. We see that
with our savior, Jesus Christ. You know, on Palm
(16:08):
Sunday, they celebrating. On Friday, they was
yelling crucified. People do that
sometimes. But at the end of the day, we have one
person who we need affirmation from, and that's
God. And outside of that, people,
you know, they'll fall in line.
>> Loren (16:26):
Yeah, yeah, this is good. So let me ask.
And this again gets back to your point about nothing ever
being wasted in God's economy. You
write about how what
we perceive as failure can still
be used by God and Let me speak here
just from my own context. Like, I am
(16:46):
someone who let a new church start
that did not make it through Covid. So when
I say, like, firsthand, like, I know,
I know failure, and it sucks, if I can
be brutally honest.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (16:59):
I know.
>> Loren (17:00):
So, uh, I mean, I think that has been
the hardest thing for me to get
my head around, my spirit around, is that,
you know, talk more about
why what we define as
failure should not be seen in that
way.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (17:19):
Yeah, I appreciate your authenticity around that, Loren,
because sometimes we do over spiritualize the fact that
sometimes the stuff we go through just sucks.
And we. And we have to name the pain
around that because it doesn't feel good to suffer, it doesn't
feel good to fail. And
yet with that, when
(17:39):
I look back at major turning points
in my life, I've
experienced tremendous growth from
it. And I've also seen
God's hand in it. Now, here is the
thing, though. When we go through certain
events where we would describe it as a failure,
(17:59):
there's a choice in this. Sometimes
we can look at it and say, this
failure is a reflection of me. And this is
where we mess up. Because we take these failures.
>> Loren (18:10):
I'm listening.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (18:11):
We take these failures personal
and we take it on as our
identity, as it relates to our value.
But our value is not rooted in our
accomplishments. That's not who we
are. This is something where it didn't work out
quite how we wanted it to work out. We.
In your case of the story you shared, you were being obedient
(18:33):
to God. Um, let's face it, Loren, you had nothing to
do with this whole pandemic situation, Right? Like, you
couldn't control this, you know? But
yet, and still, like we sometimes question,
I could have done more. I should have done this. I should. When certain
things are out of our control. But what was the
beauty that came from the process that you
(18:53):
went through, the people who you touched, the connections you made,
the lessons that you learned, the growth
that can come from that. You take that with you.
Just like going back to the story of me being denied
the certification through the biblical counseling. If I said
that was wasted, that's a lie. For a year, I
learned all this information. You can't take that
(19:14):
away from me. The lessons you can't take
away. And we understand that from
certain things that we go through. Even I, uh, talk about
trauma. There's a thing called post traumatic
growth. You can
grow outside of the events that you've
gone through. If you do the work. It's about
framing, it's about learning, it's about getting the
(19:36):
support. But I think going back to your original
questions, failures don't define your
value, just like success. And this
is kind of a paradigm shift, right? Like I think we can mess
up when we get so caught up on our high horse
around our accomplishments, establishing our
value, because when those things are taken away from
us, then we're setting ourselves up for
(19:59):
a crash. So I think if we are able
to know our value in Christ and
say that again, going back to what I said earlier,
I'm being obedient to God. If this, if
this thing falls through God, the
results are up to you. I'm doing what I'm doing to
be faithful to you. And that's how you
navigate the failures of life.
>> Loren (20:21):
Yeah, I think it's. Forgive me if
this is too,
um. What am I trying to say,
but I'm just thinking like, uh, you know, the joke's kind of on
them. Like you got the training and you're doing the work, so
the jokes on them because.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (20:38):
Exactly.
>> Loren (20:41):
Um, I think this kind of
relates here. You talk about this in your
book too, about the importance of God being our
guide, not ourselves. And
again, I'll kind of just speak from my own experience. I think it is kind of easy to
get lost in the
process. The energy, the momentum, what
(21:01):
have you of a new endeavor.
How do you keep yourself centered? How
do you advise those you're working with to keep
themselves centered and focused on God? Because
again, when there's. We kind of have a culture that's
really excited about new. Anything new gets really
a lot of momentum, excitement around it. And sometimes it's hard
(21:23):
to decipher between what is just like
cultural people excitement versus what God really
wants to do.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (21:31):
Mm mhm. I
think Loren, is a couple things. First, it's around
the people who are around us.
It makes a difference. Yeah, you have to surround yourself
with wise counsel. One of the things I
teach people is when we think about a
nonprofit, they have a board of
directors to advise them to
(21:53):
make sure that they're staying on the right path, to raise funds and all
that stuff. Who is on the board of directors of your
life? Who are the people who are
going to pull your coattail when they're
seeing you starting to lose yourself
in ministry? Who are the people who are going to
pray for you and not just say they're going to pray for
(22:14):
you? You know what I'm talking about? No, they actually
do intercede and undergird you in
prayer and who create that space
to call you up, to
help you to rise into your crown. That
is essential. And I've learned that along the years
that I have to have people around me to keep me
steady because I believe that there
(22:36):
are a number of people who start off in ministry with wonderful
intentions, God centered intentions.
But it's easy to lose yourself, Loren, in this
work because God has given
us wonderful gifts and we can start
leaning into the gifts that came from God
and thinking that that's coming from our own strength. And
(22:57):
we start making the focus about us versus who
we started this ministry for, to glorify in the first
place. I talked and I uh, warned sisters who I uh,
coach in ministry saying, hey, we have to be
careful not to be doing work for
God without God because you
can easily fall into that trap and
start going through the motions. You can pray and
(23:19):
do say all the things and scream out
scriptures, but your relationship with God could be at
a deficit. And so we have to guard
against that and we have to prioritize our
spiritual practices to make sure that we are
operating in the spirit and not the flesh.
>> Loren (23:37):
Yeah, that's so important.
I mean, I can't help but think too, uh, I remember
many years ago when I was in Bible college,
there was young men who,
they could kind of just ride the coattails of their
good story. And it wasn't even like,
you know, they had a good conversion story or
(23:58):
transformation story that they could kind of ride and they didn't really
have to stay faithful and humble. And I remember
kind of being
kind of shocked when I remember, you know, someone who
I looked at as, you know, who was an
upperclassman to me and someone who I looked at as
a spiritual leader or mentor kind of admitted to me like he had just been kind
(24:18):
of like riding the coach. Tales of a good testimony,
not staying faithful, listening.
So I appreciate that.
Mhm.
Um, let me shift gears here. We've kind of been really
talking theological,
philosophical or big picture. Let's
(24:41):
dive down into some real nitty gritty because I think
this is something that I thought was really the other side
that was real helpful about your book. When you're,
when we're, when we're thinking about someone who's starting a new
ministry.
You talk about the importance of.
You use these words. I won't. These are your words.
(25:02):
Selling your ministry or your idea. And uh, again I want
to frame it from this context. In church
spaces, in Christian spaces like that,
selling idea can be seen as a dirty word. And
certainly we all know marketers and salespeople who
are icky and gross. Talk about
why it's important to really
share passionately what you feel like
(25:25):
you've been called to.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (25:27):
Mhm. I love this question, Loren, because you're
right. I think that the word sell sounds so
taboo. It sounds icky to people. But I learned
this even before starting my own ministry. I was an
executive director of a nonprofit for almost
10 years. And I had to
learn that in order for me to get
funding for these children so we can do
(25:50):
this work, I had to sell
funders, donors on the fact
that this is the place where you need to give your
money. And using some of the same
skills from uh, another life, I used to sell insurance.
I had to use those same skills to be able to
tell the story and convince people that
(26:10):
this work is good and this is a
place where you can invest your
resources. We will be a good steward
over these resources to bear fruit, to do
great godly things. And so the
skills are very transferable from
selling insurance to selling the vision for a
nonprofit, to selling, quote unquote,
(26:32):
your ministry. Because at the end of the day,
what you are doing is conveying a message to
people that what we have to offer you
from a place of service.
>> Loren (26:43):
Mhm.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (26:44):
That's the thing, that's the difference, the motive. I
know that what I have to offer is helping
people. My motive is not to cause harm, it's to make
a difference. And for some people,
for example, going back to my nonprofit story,
I knew that there were donors who weren't going to
necessarily be in the trenches doing the work every day. But
uh, they wanted to find a place to steward
(27:07):
their money, to make a difference. So I'm helping
you by showing you that this is a place where we're
responsible, we can make that difference that you desire to make.
And it's a relationship there based on trust, based on
integrity. So when we're doing the work of the
Lord and we a, might need
resources to raise capital or we
are providing a service with integrity
(27:29):
to help people, we're doing them a, uh,
disservice if we're not vocal about the fact that we
have this to offer to, to serve the
world, right? And I tell people it's not a good thing
to be in the witness protection program about your
ministry. Like we can't do that
because it's denying us the ability to
(27:49):
help others. So as long as your motives are
pure, you know, you are, uh, coming from a place
of service and you're offering something
that's quality, then yes, Be bold about that.
The more the better. And those who you're not for, they
won't, they won't, you know, be in your ecosystem
anyway. But some people are praying for your
ministry. You are the answer that God is
(28:12):
using. And so people need to know about you.
And that's the whole point of that. Loren.
>> Loren (28:17):
Yeah, that's really good. Let me ask this
too, because I think it's related.
Something that I struggle with, and I know many
other folks that I've run into in
these kind of spaces struggle with is like
compensating yourself adequately,
like. And uh, again, I hate to say, like
to use the language, like billing appropriately. How do
(28:40):
you coach, you know, upcoming
leaders to like really adequately
compensate or bill for their time? Because I
feel like I, I make this mistake over and over
again myself.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (28:54):
Oh, such good questions, Loren. This is a
struggle, right, for a number of reasons, because
many of us, we have worked in the church for years.
Most of the stuff we do is volunteer based, right? So we got
that going then. For the women who I work with,
sometimes we see this even in the corporate
arena, we are often underpaid or we struggle to
(29:14):
assert ourselves in terms of our needs. So we have all these
dynamics going on. And I had
to learn that when we are offering a
quality service, just because we
are Christian does not mean that
we don't get compensated fairly for this. Because
I can't go to the people who I got my
(29:35):
mortgage from and say, hey, yeah, I can't pay this
mortgage this month because they're gonna be like, uh, yeah,
that sounds like a personal problem. You know, like. And
so when it comes to this, I believe
that if you are offering, say, for
instance, I teach on domestic violence and I'm a
speaker. If I'm going to do a keynote on
(29:55):
this topic, the fact that I'm Christian,
or if I was someone who was doing this from a secular
standpoint, I still should be compensated for that because
I'm bringing a level of expertise. I've done the
work. And so for
many of them, um, many people who I work with, I have
to first remind them of the value
that they bring to the table. Um, your
(30:18):
education, your years of experience, the lessons that
you've learned, the quality and expertise
is not diminished because of your faith. Now,
yes, there's certain things that I do as a
volunteer and I'm, I'm led by the spirit in
terms of what I will give my back my time for, because I do believe
in that. But I also think that you should
(30:38):
be Fairly compensated for the services that you offer
in the marketplace. And, uh, over time,
your confidence to charge more will
increase. And the last thing I'll say about
this, Loren, is money is a
resource. It's not the source. It's a
resource. And if we
(30:58):
look at it like that, we are not making money in
Idol. That's not the thing.
But I want to be able to
create a ministry that reaches far and
wide to change lives. And for me
to be able to do that, I need resources for that. I
need to not be up to my eyeballs in debt.
>> Loren (31:18):
Yep.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (31:18):
So I have to be able to be compensated
to pay my staff to do the things I need to do.
And so there's an element of being able to operate in
Kingdom business as an entrepreneur
to be able to sustain the ministry that God has called me
to.
>> Loren (31:33):
Yeah, this is good. And this leads into, I think, a
related question. You write that
the word no was one of the most powerful words you learned
in your beginning season of ministry. So
I'm thinking again, you probably know
better than I do because I'm not good at no. But
I can imagine there's going to be times where someone's going to come to you with a
(31:55):
great offer that might really be
a promising event. But you might have to say no, because reasons
of resources, capacity, talk
more about that.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (32:06):
Yes. That I've had to work on
as a recovering people pleaser, M who
cared so much about what people thought about me and not
wanting to sound mean, I would have
a neat jerk reaction of saying yes to, uh, so many
things. And I'd be stressed out, out of my mind.
And sometimes I would be almost resentful because
(32:26):
I would have these events coming up and I'm like, why did I commit
to this? Blah, blah, blah. And
it's my fault, all my fault. And so I've
had to learn to take pause and really
think about, okay, Jocelyn, is this something that
you want to do? Okay. Okay. You want to
do it? Okay. Are you the best person
(32:47):
for this? Okay.
>> Loren (32:49):
Okay.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (32:49):
Um, this is the timing
for this. Okay. So asking
these questions and then also being clear about
my priorities. In this season of
life, when you don't have priorities or
clarity of vision, then you can let other people
set the priorities for you. And at that
point, you are all over the
(33:11):
place. And so for me, as it relates to
certain opportunities, for example, I had someone approach
me for speaking engagement on a topic that I
typically speak on, but it was something
where they didn't have, uh, they had a small budget and that
was fine. I said, you know what? I know someone who's perfect for
you, who, uh, is a mentee of mine who
(33:32):
was. I was able to give them that opportunity. And so
it's one of those things where you can delegate, you can pass
gracefully on opportunities, and you can just let people
know that this sounds wonderful. I'm so grateful that you
considered me. But at this time, I'm
unable to commit to that due to other priorities. But thank you
for keeping me in mind and make that referral. I'm learning to
(33:52):
do that as an act of grace to them and to myself.
>> Loren (33:55):
Yeah, that's great. Because I think, I mean, if
one, if anything, you're giving someone else a good opportunity.
Right. Um, in
that, the graciousness. I wrote this down.
So let's review this because I think this is good. So
again, do you want to. Because I think we all do a lot of things we
don't really want to do. Right. Am I the best person? Is the
timing right. And do they align with my
(34:17):
priorities in life? Because I
know for me, like when I'm haggling about
something, reviewing
what my priorities are, my values are, or
whatever really is helpful for me.
M. So again, this is kind of perfect.
Like, let's skip to this question. Then you write
(34:38):
about the maybe later journal. So let's talk
about the maybe later journal, how that might apply
here.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (34:45):
Oh yes, I made that for myself
because I am a
creative. And uh, for anyone who's listening, when you
get the visions from God and you're like, oh, this is such a great idea,
and you just getting all these downloads and sometimes I
realize, listen, you could get overwhelmed with all your
wonderfulness and be
like a squirrel and just not
(35:07):
completing anything. And so I had to
create. I actually create, created a planner for
women in ministry. And I
put in the planner. The maybe later list
is a section in planner where, you know, you can
capture your ideas in a. In a place
that you can continuously go back and review it
(35:27):
later, but you do have to ask those
questions. Uh, again, it goes back to questions. All
right. Is this a vision that God gave me for
this season or is this something that's for 10 years from
now? Is this an idea that I have
just because it's a trending fad? Mhm. Is this
something that's in line with my
(35:47):
mission and ministry in the season
and so it allows you to capture it and revisit
it? I tell people, revisit it maybe once a quarter
because there's good stuff on there. But we have
to be very careful, Loren, not
to have a practice of being a great
starter and a terrible finisher. We have a whole
(36:07):
bunch of half built bridges. We build the bridge,
halfway stop, and then don't bring things to
completion. So I'm big on
focusing on a particular project each
quarter and I ensure I bring that project
to completion at the end of the quarter before I take on
another major project. Because I was the queen
(36:27):
of half built bridges for the longest, but it wasn't
serving me well, it just was making me frustrated.
And so that's my new practice in order for me
to capture those ideas but focus on
completion of what's in season for
me at this time.
>> Loren (36:44):
Yeah, that's good. Let me ask this as a follow up then, because
I'm thinking about a lot of
the listeners of the podcast or pastors or church leaders. So
I'm thinking, I imagine you have fairly
similar experience yourself, mentoring and
supporting ministry
entrepreneurs. So someone comes to you and it's
like, uh, oh, I have this idea for a ministry I want to do,
(37:06):
which is oftentimes what a pastor
or church leader will experience. Someone who's part of their
congregation coming up to m them, hey, we need to do this, that or the
other. And you know, again, this
is assuming that you're in good relationship with
them and you feel like you have a good kind of
tone or take on what is good for them and
(37:28):
what's going on in their life. How do you, how do you counsel
people to say, hey, that's great,
but this, you know, these four things, like
the timing's not right, like, how do you, how do you have that conversation with
folks?
>> Rev. Jocelyn (37:40):
I ask questions. I start off with
questions because I think when people
first are starting their ministry,
they, they might, they have this burning desire,
they want to do purpose driven work, but it's typically
not always clear. Unless you have a burning bush
moment, you're still trying to figure things
out. And so at the end of the day, I
(38:03):
continue to ask when people are
discerning, I ask them, okay, what cause
burdens you? Who are the people who you
feel called to serve? What gifts do you
have? And I start going through these
series of questions to help them
to refine their focus. And
then I asked them, okay, what gifts do you already
(38:25):
have or things do you already have going for
you that you can lean into already?
It's amazing to me how many people have
gone through these certifications or
these programs that they've done nothing with and
they have it in their Back pocket, but they start
working on something else before they actually explore what they already
(38:46):
have there. So I usually take people through this
assessment process of a series of questions to get
clarity and then say, okay, what can
we focus on first as
foundational? And I think the
one thing I've also seen, Loren, is people
can get so caught up on creating
this full McDonald's menu. And let me
(39:09):
explain that. You know how McDonald's has like, the
fries and the salad and all these side things, and
I'm like, what is your hamburger? Like
what. What is your main thing? Focus. Let's
focus on establishing that first before we
get all these side menu items.
>> Loren (39:25):
Yeah, that's good. Because, like, even thinking McDonald's has cut back their
menu menu quite significantly
in recent years just because they realized, like, they can only do,
like, they weren't. They stopped making a good burger. Right. Because they were
doing too much.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (39:38):
Mhm. Yep, yep, yep.
>> Loren (39:41):
Well, this is good conversation. Uh, let's,
let's take a break. But the book is again, Sister, Start
your Ministry, A Guide to Start,
Grow and sustain a Transformative Ministry.
Again, it's titled Sister, but I imagine plenty of brothers
or folks could really
benefit from the book. So Reverend Jocelyn, uh,
(40:01):
let's take a quick break and we'll come back with some closing
questions.
All right, we're back with Reverend Jocelyn Jones. I
always tell folks here these closing questions, you're welcome to take these
as seriously or not as you'd like to.
Uh, some folks get a little bit
hung up on the Pope question. So feel, uh, free
(40:23):
to answer as you want or not. If, uh, you're
a pope for a day, if you had some kind of
global or Christian authority,
how might you want to see
that authority or experience be for
the day?
>> Rev. Jocelyn (40:39):
Yeah, I sat with this question. I'm like, this question is super cool.
Let me really think about this here, because
I think if I was Pope for the day, I would
mandate a day of silence with
no technology, uh, and
require people to be able to just
be still and
(41:00):
to be able to reflect, commune with their God
and really reconnect with self. I think people
might be crawling and climbing the walls
with a date like that because we become
so inundated
with technology and busyness and
distractions. And again, as I said earlier, silence
(41:21):
could be so loud for people. But once
you get past the initial shock and you kind of
detox from the, from all the distractions
and you have moments to find rest in self
and be out with nature and
really explore the things that God has given us that
matter, how beautiful that is.
(41:41):
And God has given me tremendous revelations
when I actually sat in the
silence. And that's something I would
love to have people experience.
>> Loren (41:52):
Yeah, it goes back to what you said early in the
conversation about. I mean, you talked about being so
busy that you couldn't hear. But I think
so many of us, me included,
we're so distracted by the phone
or the constant inputs that it's hard to hear.
So I,
(42:13):
I've done a 24 hour silence retreat and
I hated it, but I'm sure it was good for me.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (42:20):
It's tough, it's tough. But, yeah, uh,
I think I'm trying to go on one next year for a couple
days and I feel like I'll be going through my little detox, you
know, convulsions and everything. But, ah, once you get
through day one, you can start embracing it, I
believe.
>> Loren (42:35):
Yeah, that's good. Um, a theologian or
historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back
to life.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (42:42):
I was wrestling between Peter and
Paul. I think both of them
resonates with me because of
their backstory. Their backstory is
fascinating. Paul, obviously known as Saul,
formerly known as Saul, and his backstory. But then
Peter, when he denied
Jesus, when Peter, you know, swore
(43:04):
up and down he never would. I mean, and Peter
had that wild side. I mean, he was cutting off ears. He was like,
go hard for Jesus, you know, but, but
just seeing his, his transformation and
his redemption after that
mistake is beauty in that.
And, and I think it just reminds
me of our walk because we
(43:27):
are going to mess up sometimes. And for
me, also a recovering perfectionist,
there have been many times in which I got
stuck in a shoulda, coulda, would haves. I, uh,
tell people now, stop shoulding on yourself, you know, because
it doesn't help but to
see how God uses us
(43:48):
in our mistakes and flaws and seeing how Peter
and Paul, I would interview them and say, how did you, like,
work through that? Like, what was your thoughts like, Peter,
when, you know, you realize you denied Jesus three times
and you weeped and everything. How did you get through that?
And, you know, so those are questions that I
would have.
>> Loren (44:06):
Yeah, that's good, that's good. Um, what do you think
history will remember from our current time and place?
>> Rev. Jocelyn (44:13):
That question I struggle with because
right now I feel like we're extremely
polarized. It's unfortunate
that sometimes we can
be stuck on an issue
and, uh, firmly in our beliefs to the point where
we can't disagree without cutting off
the person yeah. And that's
(44:36):
scary because we, you know, in a
cancel culture type environment,
you know, people I don't disagree
with, I don't agree, excuse me, with everything that anyone
says. Like there's going to be disagreements, agreements. Right, right. But I
can still love you. I can still at least provide space
for like conversation to
(44:57):
at least understand your viewpoint and then
vocalize mine is very
challenging in this environment when we aren't
open to hearing other
people and really listening deeply and
then still being able to love them in spite the fact
that we disagree. That is something that I'm
hoping, uh, particularly. I, uh, know this is probably going
(45:19):
to air well after the election, but you know, with
the election being very polarizing, I just
pray that we can get to a point where we can love each other
in spite of our differences.
>> Loren (45:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What do you hope then for the future of Christianity?
>> Rev. Jocelyn (45:37):
I, uh, think it's around that same lines. I think
that my hope for Christianity
is that we move beyond
religion to again relationship,
which I started this conversation talking about. I think that
religion can jack people up when we
get to be so holier than
thou Pharisees caught
(46:00):
up in certain elements of the tradition, which is
honestly a beautiful thing. You know, there's certain elements
of religion that I embrace and I love in terms of uh, spiritual
practices and I love the church.
I do think though that people can use
religion to weaponize and cause harm.
I mhm. Was talking about this. Earlier this week I was hosting a
(46:20):
Faith Leaders Against Domestic Violence summit
and I was talking to faith leaders,
uh, about the fact that the spiritual text
could be used like scripture can be used as a
weapon versus a source of healing for people.
And taken outside of context,
and this is, this is scary for someone who
(46:40):
is a domestic violence survivor to see
how this domestic violence happens to men
and women and anybody it can happen to, but
primarily women. We see m that women
are chastised and really
encouraged to stay in dangerous marriages
for the sake of religion and their
relationship with God. When God does not
(47:03):
want anyone to be abused. Right. And
so I want the church to be
trauma informed. A lot of my work is
around helping the church to become
sacred places of healing versus harm.
So that when you do find out that someone has
experienced trauma, whether due to domestic violence, whether they're
struggling with suicide, whether they're struggling with
(47:25):
depression, whatever the case may be, we
don't say, well you don't have enough faith.
We don't say words like that. No,
we, we show them love, we
connect them with Resources. And we, we
are a place that is safe for people
who are coming to the church as a spiritual
hospital. That's my desire for the church and
(47:47):
that's why I do the work that I do.
>> Loren (47:51):
Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that. I'm. I'm reading, um, a book
right now on kind of church
abuse. And you know, in that
kind of toxicity that can happen where
folks are essentially protecting the church, they're protecting the
religion, doing the wrong thing because they
think they need to protect the religion. So
I'm especially appreciative of what you said there.
(48:14):
Let's, uh, let's do this. Share if you would. Kind
of. You obviously have the book here, which we've talked about, but you
do a lot of other work, so feel free to share how
folks can connect with you, what some of the other work you do and
that in your connection.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (48:27):
Yes. So if someone wants to connect with
me, they can visit my website, jocelynj
Jones dot com. That's kind of like the
hub where you can learn more about the work that I
do from like a faith standpoint, from a
healing, trauma healing, church standpoint, my trauma healing
ministry. You can connect through there. You can also
find out about my sister Start yout Ministry Resources
(48:50):
through that site. So that is a good place to
start. I also do want to mention, Loren, that I have a free
gift to offer your listeners.
Yeah, I created a
ministry launch starter kit for individuals
who are just trying to get, you know, the ministry off the
ground. And so you can get that for free by visiting
(49:10):
sisterstartyourministry.com.
>> Loren (49:14):
Okay, let's make sure, uh, if you have not
send that to me, I'll make sure we include it in the show notes.
>> Rev. Jocelyn (49:20):
For sure. For sure.
>> Loren (49:22):
Well, this has been a great conversation. Really appreciate your
time. Always. Uh, leave folks with a word of peace.
So may God's peace be with you.
>> Loren Richmond (49:36):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But
(49:58):
before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the
POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this
out to more people. Thanks. And go in PE.
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