January 23, 2024 • 46 mins
It's predicted by 2030, an estimated 100,000 church buildings will either be sold or repurposed. With this impending reality, Mark Elsdon asks a key question--will these buildings be gone...for good? In this conversation, Mark compares this shift to the decline of video rental stores and underscores the need for purposeful action in repurposing these spaces. Mark highlights the community impact and explores alternatives to selling, like donations or social enterprises, drawing from his positive experience with property redevelopment at University ministry center. The conversation also touches on the value of preserving sacred spaces amidst these changes.
Mark Elsdon lives and works at the intersection of money and meaning as an entrepreneur, nonprofit executive, author, and speaker. He is the author of, We Aren't Broke, about the use of faith-based property and investments for social enterprise and impact investing. Mark’s new book, Gone for Good? Negotiating the Coming Wave of Church Property Transition is available now.
Mark is cofounder of RootedGood, which supports catalytic and innovative church leaders working on property development, money and mission alignment, and social enterprise; executive director at Pres House and Pres House Apartments on the University of Wisconsin's Madison campus; principal at Threshold Sacred Development; and past president of the board of directors for Working Capital for Community Needs, an impact investing fund that provides microfinance funding to the working poor in Latin America.
Mark has a BA in Psychology from the University of California - Berkeley, a Master of Divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary, and an MBA from the University of Wisconsin School of Business. He is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church, USA, and lives in Madison, Wisconsin. Mark is an avid cyclist and considers it a good year when he rides more miles on his bike than he drives in his car.
Previous Episode:
https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/mark-elsdon-on-why-we-arent-broke/
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Alright, welcome to the show Mark Elsden,thanks so much for being here.
Anything else you'd like our listeners toknow about you?
Well, my bio ends with a reference toriding my bike, which is, if anyone knows
me well, the sort of defining thing aboutwhat I do with my time.
It is winter in Wisconsin at the moment,so I am preparing to ride in the snow.
(00:21):
So you can keep that in mind if you're ina warmer climate.
well looks like if i if that's a realwindow behind you look to your blue skies
today so writing home
but it is cold and I'm riding my bike homelater, yes.
Yeah, I was actually going to ask you howthat's going.
The bike mileage versus the car mileage.
(00:42):
It's going, I think I've got it again thisyear.
So yeah, more bike, more bike mileage thancar mileage.
Yep.
That's very impressive.
Well, thanks so much for your time andlooking forward to having this
conversation.
Sure.
If you would, you've been on the podbefore, but sure.
If you would just about kind of your faithjourney, what that looked like in the past
and what that looks like today.
(01:03):
Yeah, I mean, I'm a Presbyterian minister.
I grew up, my parents are immigrants fromEngland.
They were, grew up Church of England, andthen I grew up going to a Lutheran church.
I actually opened my new book, Gone forGood, with a whole series of stories of
(01:25):
ways that different churches shaped meover the years, everything from...
giving me my family name in NorthernEngland to a place where I would hide out
and play basketball instead of going onlong runs during cross-country practice in
high school to meeting my spouse, servingat a meal for food insecure people in
(01:49):
Berkeley, California, and all these otherstories of way churches have shaped me.
And so, yeah, I'm very conscious of theways.
that I am who I am because of theconnections I've had to faith communities
over the years.
Awesome.
What's a spiritual practice that you'd sayis sustaining you right now?
(02:10):
Yeah, I, you know, in addition to ridingmy bike and as sort of an active prayer
and an active sort of communal living, Irecently got a dog.
I think you have a dog, but I recently gota dog and walking my dog in the
neighborhood has become a really nicespiritual practice, just, you know, a
(02:31):
chance to take a break.
Days that I work from home, I like to justget out for a little brief walk after
lunch and just to pause.
Mm-hmm.
I've been really trying to focus on thatsort of Sabbath act, even if I do like to
take a full Sabbath day, but sometimesit's just a Sabbath act in the middle of a
day is as powerful as anything.
(02:52):
So I've been enjoying that.
Yeah, I'll be doing that when we're donehere, so recommend.
doesn't let you kind of, my dog at least,doesn't let me sort of run around the
block.
He likes to poke around and take his timeand smell everything and that forces you
to slow down to something powerful aboutthat.
Yep, yep, good, good.
Well, as Mark hinted at, we're talkingabout his new book called Gone For Good.
(03:20):
And Mark, you'll have to tell us as we'rerecording this, is this available yet for
purchase?
I imagine when this releases it maybe,when is it coming out?
How about that?
The book comes out January 9th, so it isavailable for pre-order now and any
pre-orders before that ship I think on the9th.
I actually have the book here, my copy ofit, but it's available to the public
(03:44):
January 9th.
Great, so when this releases it should beavailable for folks, so check it out at
minimum if this comes out early forpre-order.
But we're going to kind of talk through alittle teaser video that Mark highlighted
on his website, kind of talking about thebook and talk through some themes here.
So the first thing in this video youshared, and Mark, I'll try to make sure
(04:04):
that's included in the show notes, just sofolks get that same...
That same...
video but the first thing that jumped outto me when I watched that is you share a
statistic that an estimated 100 000buildings and again I want to say that
number 100 000 buildings will be sold orrepurposed by 2030 so that number kind of
(04:34):
astounds me so do you want to talk throughthat a little bit
Yeah, I mean, so I think the first thingto note is that these are estimates.
There's really no really clear data outthere.
Even most denominations don't even knowhow many buildings are associated with
their denomination.
But the estimates that a number ofdifferent people have made on this issue
(04:59):
are somewhere in that range of 100,000churches closing or buildings being sold
or repurposed.
you know those are exactly the same thingbut uh...
but the connected and that's that amountsto a third or a quarter of all churches in
the united states uh...
until it's a huge number right so that'sthe reason the book is references the
(05:22):
coming wave of church property transitionand it really is a massive wave that's
going to crash upon the shores of americanchristianity in the next decade now this
doesn't mean all churches are going toclose and
Right.
going to be sold and new churches willstill happen and emerge and plants will
happen and some churches will continue togrow.
(05:43):
All of that, you know, that's all true.
God's not going anywhere, you know, butthere's a massive change happening in the
way people connect with God and engage intheir faith and that's translating into a
different use of buildings and property.
I've actually been...
Thinking about this a little bit recentlyin terms of kind of the Blockbuster video
(06:04):
moment that we had in the early 2000swhere, you know, there was a shift from
going down to the Blockbuster store,renting a video off the shelf, taking it
home, returning it three days later, andsuddenly we were getting our DVDs in the
mail through Netflix.
And then it wasn't very long after that wewere just streaming them.
(06:26):
you know people still want the experienceof watching movie they still want to watch
a movie but uh...
the spaces the physical spaces where theyaccess those movies just change
dramatically and i think there's somethingsimilar going on uh...
in people's spiritual life uh...
they still want to believe experiences ofthe divine want to connect with god they
(06:46):
want to connect with meaning with eachother with purpose but it's not happening
as much
in Sunday morning worship services andSunday school Christian education classes,
which is what we built for decades anddecades.
We built buildings for those things.
(07:07):
But just kind of berating ourselves forthat is not particularly helpful.
It'd be like telling the Blockbuster Videostore manager that they just need to try
harder and put a new sign outside and kindof just do something better.
and then people will come back into thestore.
That would never have happened.
And it doesn't matter how much they tried,right?
And there's a bit of that dynamic going onin the church today.
(07:32):
It's just a change in the way people areconnecting with God and again, not
everyone.
There's always gonna be worship, corporateworship, and there will be good Sunday
school classes and all of that, and therewill be traditional church buildings and
experiences, but just not as much.
of it as we had in the past.
(07:55):
Yeah, you know, if I can stay on thatBlockbuster video theme for a second, um,
my wife and I went to look at renting anew movie streaming on Amazon.
It was like 10 bucks.
And I was kind of like, a new videorelease at Blockbuster was even like five
bucks back in the day.
So I don't know what that's about.
And there's far less overhead.
(08:17):
Anyway, I digress there.
So I think a key question, if I remembercorrectly, you ask in the video is what
will be left and how will it affectcommunities and neighborhoods?
So you've obviously given a lot to thoughtto this.
I imagine the book really tackles thesequestions.
Do you wanna share some thoughts you'vehad and some of your contributors have
(08:40):
had?
Yeah, so one of the questions I have isnot only what does this mean for the
church or church-going people, which isobviously significant, but what does it
mean for the social infrastructure ofcommunities, right?
This space is where things happen.
Where will the Girl Scout troop meet?
(09:01):
And where will the AA groups meet?
Mm-hmm.
Loads of A groups meet in churches.
Where will we vote?
In my community, voting happens atchurches all over the city.
If those churches are something else in 10years, where are we gonna vote?
Where will people pick up food at the foodpantry?
Where will they meet significant others?
(09:21):
And where will kids' violin lessonspractice?
I mean, there's just endless things thathappen in churches in addition to the
spiritual life that is gonna be missing.
And I don't think we fully recognize thatreality of where all that space is going
and what it becomes.
(09:44):
And that concerns me.
And especially if that space moves frombeing a socially oriented space to being
basically privately owned and monetized bylargely wealthy people, investors,
developers, and so on, then...
We've lost a lot.
We've lost a lot of social infrastructurewith that change in use.
(10:06):
And I think that's a big deal.
I think it's going to really impactcommunities in ways that we don't fully
fathom yet if we just let that happen allover the place.
Let me give an example just because I justsaw something while I was eating lunch on
threads.
In my metro area, there was an old Baptistchurch in a neighborhood that I actually
(10:29):
lived in when I was a teenager in Denver.
And I think they tore down part of thechurch and built condos.
And then the real historic part of thesanctuary...
once you know it was a brewery, and nowthat brewery is actually closing.
So again, there's this question of what'sgonna happen to that space, and of course,
because I'm totally a church nerd, I said,hey, like, make it a church again.
(10:54):
Unlikely to happen, someone else said,it's probably gonna become a dispensary.
But it kind of speaks to your point thereof these public spaces becoming less and
less accessible to the public, and I thinkthat's certainly a...
A dynamic that I've noticed is this kindof privatization of space where you have
(11:15):
to you have to essentially pay to getanywhere.
I'm sure you're you've noticed this tooand others have talked about like public
libraries are one of the few kind ofpublic spaces available in many
communities and they themselves are beingunderfunded right?
That's right.
Yeah, I mean the Partners for SacredPlaces, who has a couple chapters in the
(11:36):
book, they did a study on the halo effectof churches and one of the amazing things
they found was that in one area that theystudied, I think it was 87% of visits to
the churches in that community had nothingto do with worship.
It was just community activity that wasgoing on, right?
And I mean in my view that's part of whatit means to be the church.
(11:56):
Obviously worship is central but alsothese other things are too.
That's how Christian life is lived out inthe world, in my view, right?
It's through that sort of stuff.
And so, you know, yeah, the privatizationand the kind of closing off of space.
And again, if it happens once or twice ina neighborhood or in a city, that's one
(12:20):
thing.
But when it happens with 40 out of 100,that's a completely different story,
right?
So if one church building becomes high-endcondos,
all right, maybe that's not a huge deal.
But again, if 25, 30, 40% of them in acity do, then you've got a real change
going on.
And as you noted, it's not going back.
(12:43):
Like, you know, once those are no longerchurches and they're owned privately,
they're not gonna be churches again andnot at any foreseeable future.
I mean, who knows?
Obviously things may change and, you know,religious life in America might look
really different in a hundred years, butin our sort of...
Yeah.
and vision, it's not going back to being achurch.
So we have kind of one chance totransition these properties.
(13:07):
They're going to change one way or theother.
It doesn't matter whether we want them toor not.
They just, they are going to sort of likeblockbuster.
But the question before us is what are wegoing to do about that and how do we sort
of intentionally think about thosetransitions in a way that leaves good in
their place?
That's why I titled the book Gone forGood.
(13:28):
gone for good, as in something good comingout, or are they gone forever?
And that's it, yeah.
So there's a church that...
I shouldn't name names here so I won't.
There's a church in my neck of the woodsthat is open right now.
And I have an aspiration of becoming theirpastor because my thought is long term,
(13:51):
like one way or another that property isgoing to become condos.
Like they can either develop it...
Thoughtfully and intentionally in somecapacity or it's just gonna get turned
into all condos one way or another So youpropose what you say thoughtful
intervention to talk about what that mightlook like
(14:12):
Yeah, I mean, I think what I'm suggestingis that we shape this transition rather
than letting it just shape us, because Ithink if we just let it unfold, we're
going to be unhappy with the outcome whenwe look back, say, 20 years from now.
I mean, if market forces are all thatdrive, they will push us towards financial
outcomes and not spiritual or socialoutcomes that, you know, are about
(14:34):
flourishing of neighborhoods.
So...
In my view, thoughtful intervention is theact of intentionally seeking good in our
community with the use of property, notjust disposing of it, monetizing it, or
walking away from it, which is very oftenwhat happens in the end.
And so yeah, it's exactly what youdescribed.
That property you're describing andthinking of is going to look different.
(14:57):
There's just no question about it.
So what is the looking different going tobe?
And if it's going to be housing, thatcould be really cool.
But what kind of housing?
Who's going to own the housing?
Where's the money going when that housingis done?
Who's going to live in that housing?
Is that going to contribute to flourishingin that neighborhood, or is it going to
just further gentrify the neighborhood insome way?
(15:19):
Those are all the sorts of questions thatwe, as the church, have a chance to decide
now, and we won't have a chance to decidelater.
Once a property is sold or redone, that'sit.
We're out of that opportunity to influencewhat will happen there.
I appreciate what you're saying about thegone, you know, that kind of the plan
(15:44):
words gone for good or gone forcontributing good because one pastor I've
spoken to, you know, he really lamentedthis idea like we're never getting back
these kind of downtown really corelocations that
(16:08):
were really vital parts of the community.
So what do you what do you tell churchesor middle judicatories?
What kind of wisdom or thoughts do you askthem to consider before you know they sell
a property even if it just because of thelocation for instance?
(16:28):
Yeah, so Rooted Good, one of theorganizations I work with, we actually
designed a guide how to sell well, whichis all about it sort of takes people
through this decision making process andit's exactly that, right?
It's thinking about first of all, arethere alternatives to selling?
Because there are many times alternativesto selling.
I often will ask people simply, why notgive it away?
(16:51):
Give it away to a different churchcommunity that can use it or give it.
give the land back to indigenous peoplesthat lived there before as an act of
restoration.
If we're not using it anyways, I'd rathersee that happen potentially than sort of
monetizing it for private gain.
Yeah, exactly.
Or could we do social enterprise on it?
Or could we partner in some way anddevelop some, at least some housing or
(17:14):
something or other that contributes to theneighborhood?
There's lots of different alternatives.
But if you are going to sell it, thenthere's questions around what are you
going to do with the proceeds?
Right.
because there's better and not betterthings we can do with the money when it
comes in, right?
And who are we selling it to?
Because again, you have one chance todecide who to sell it to.
(17:37):
I'm not opposed to selling, but I will saythat I think that is a cautionary word,
and that we won't get them back.
So I'm also the pastor at Press House,
Our story is super interesting becausethere were three campus ministry centers
(17:58):
Presbyterian sold about the same time orattempted to be sold in the late 1990s.
Our Synod sold the campus center at theUniversity of Minnesota and at the
University of Iowa and they tried to sellthe one here at the University of
Wisconsin.
But local people in Madison resisted thatsale and instead held onto it and we
redeveloped the property.
(18:19):
We have student housing.
on the property and now fast forward 20years.
There's no active Presbyterian ministry atthe University of Minnesota or Iowa.
There's no property at those schools.
The money that was gained is basicallygone.
Here in Wisconsin, we serve a thousandstudents a year through our ministry.
(18:40):
Our property is worth like 25 milliondollars and we generate two and a half
million dollars a year in revenue.
It's like a completely different outcome.
you know, it's so starkly differentbecause we decided to do something
different than just dispose of it.
Now again, there is too much property,church's own, we will have to dispose of
(19:02):
in some way, but we can influence the waythat is done and what ends up going in
there at those moments, at those keymoments.
Yeah.
So we've kind of been talking around thisand I want to ask this directly.
What do we, how about, how about the lossof sacred space?
(19:25):
I'm a big believer, I'll say in sacredspace.
And to me, at least there's something thatas much as I understand the practicalities
of like a multifunction worship space, Ialso
having been someone who's worshiped in aelementary school gymnasium, like, know
(19:47):
what the downsides of that are.
So talk about, what do you think about theloss of sacred space, or why or does
sacred space matter in these contexts?
Yeah, it does.
I think you're absolutely right.
I mean, I believe God's present in allcircumstances, in all places, not only
church or worship, but there is sort of aspecial promise that God meets us in
(20:12):
sacred spaces and sacred practices likethe sacraments and spaces that are set
aside for us to pause.
you know, to put aside the normal activityof life, to think differently, and space
does that, right?
When you enter into well-designed space orintentional space, it changes the way we
think, and I think we need that.
(20:33):
We need those transitional experiences toallow us to encounter God in different
ways.
So absolutely, there is something reallyvaluable about sacred space, and there is
something sad about seeing a lot of sacredspace in the United States.
decline, not just the church's decline,but the space itself.
(20:55):
Deferred mansions and things, they start,they leak, you've got issues, right?
But that is the way things go.
Things age, things change.
And so yeah, I absolutely think there is aplace for sacred space.
I think what we're doing now or thinkingabout now is how does that get sort of
(21:17):
re-envisioned?
as part of these multi-use projects ifthey're being redeveloped.
And how does it get right-sized a littlebit?
Do we need maybe as much sacred space?
Maybe not.
But we still need it, for sure.
This is a related question.
(21:37):
And I'm thinking about this in the contextof, again, like the prevalence of like
multi-purpose space.
And it seems like we're really as asociety like thinking, unless you're an
NFL team, right, then you can get your owndedicated stadium for $5 billion.
But in most other contexts, it'smulti-use, multi-purpose,
multi-everything.
(21:59):
And I think about...
And I may be wrong in this, but my thoughtis that the kind of thinking has crept its
way into the church in that a church hasgot to kind of prove its value to the
community through multi-usage.
And I'm curious, this is kind of a bigtheological question.
Like is a, is a church building or a spacein the church existing only for worship
(22:24):
and faith formation, like is that enough?
And I know that's a loaded question, butI'm kind of curious your thoughts there.
Yeah, I mean, I think it is enough.
I don't think we need, I don't think wehave to have something beyond that.
I think that is perfectly acceptable as ause of space.
I think there's a couple of responses Ihave to that.
(22:45):
One is, yes, it is enough, but again,there's too much of it for how, it's
again, it's more a matter of scale andsort of use and size than it is like
purpose in some ways.
So,
Mm-hmm.
there's just too much of that only space,right?
For the number of people using it in thatway and for what it can do in a community.
(23:10):
So that's one sort of thought there.
And then the other is, I do think we, Ilike to think a bit beyond sort of the
divide between sacred and worship andfaith formation and in other activities.
So, in my view, giving church land back toindigenous peoples that were there before
the church, that's an act of worship.
Mm-hmm.
And if that space is more than we need,then it's an act of worship to do that.
(23:34):
Or turning an unused Christian educationwing into like a social entrepreneur
incubator space.
It's not like it isn't, it's not as ifworship's not enough, but doing that is an
act of faith formation, or it can be.
Providing long-term housing at cost peoplecan afford is a way of living out.
(23:54):
our faith commitments of justice andloving our neighbors.
So I would frame a lot of those activitiesas expressions of our worship life and our
faith life, if they're done, again, ifthey're done sort of well, right?
So it's a combination of a bit of rightsizing of the amount of that space, and
then also of thinking about different waysto engage with.
(24:19):
with people.
And you know, I work with young people andthey are very interested in what does it
mean to live out faith in the day to dayand not just in Sunday.
And these are ways of doing that.
But I would never say that it's not enoughto have, you know, worship in a space is
not enough.
It is enough.
(24:39):
But there's also other, at the same time,there's also other expressions that space
can be used for.
So kind of both.
Yeah.
that's a helpful response.
Let me ask this too, and this is more apractical question.
That's maybe not so much for churches thatare thinking about selling or repurposing
(25:02):
to something non-church related, but thisis a dynamic that I've seen that I'm
curious how you would counsel churches isI think there can be a bit of this.
what I'll call like a tail wagging the dogscenario where again from my from my bias,
like I believe the purpose of the churchfirst and first and foremost purposes is
(25:24):
worship and faith formation right sothat's my bias at least where I've seen
these dynamics where you get rental spaceor child care whatever and these kind of
other revenue streams that can support.
the mission and ministry of the churchkind of become almost a tail-whacking the
(25:45):
dog scenario, at least from myperspective.
So I'm kind of curious, like, how wouldyou, how would you, I don't know, counsel
churches, like, like if they're like, hey,we're going to, we're going to develop,
like, like y'all did, like we're going todevelop a, a living situation, a
residences on our property.
How do we, how do we organize it?
(26:06):
How do we do it in a way that we're reallyliving out of our mission and our
ministry?
Yeah, I mean I think there's a coupledifferent directions that can take so
sometimes
for churches the wise approach is to sortof make use of land and buildings simply
differently for the good of theircommunity and that might involve a
(26:27):
partnership with somebody to develophousing or something like that.
And they might continue their worship lifein a smaller part of that.
Again, it's sort of like fitting down thesize a bit and then using that excess for
other things.
(26:48):
Even before the COVID pandemic, we're onlyin use like 17% of the week.
Like, it's a pretty poor utilization of areally valuable resource, right?
And if a church is interested in doingsocial enterprise or sort of development
that really is connected directly to themand their mission, then we always
(27:08):
encourage them to think about who they areand who their neighborhood is and how
those things connect.
So Rooted Good offers a Good FuturesAccelerator program.
that is designed for churches.
It's about a seven month program thatchurches go through to think about using
their buildings and land for socialenterprise, for exactly what you're
describing, but to do it reallythoughtfully, not just to be like, hey, I
(27:32):
read an article about X, let's do that,but to start all the way back with who are
we, who has God called us to be over time,what connects to our congregation deeply.
You know, the projects I've seen that aremost interesting are the ones where it's
tied in with some historical legacy thechurch is interested in or has been a part
(27:53):
of.
So like taking a really powerful foodpantry ministry and then expanding it and
turning that into a grocery co-op owned bythe neighborhood.
So you turn like this sort of beloved 30,40, 50 year ministry into something.
that's got a new version of that, but it'sstill tied in with something historic and
(28:15):
something that's deeply rooted in who thatchurch is and who the neighborhood is.
Not just picking some idea off the shelfand innovating for innovation's sake, but
really trying to ground it in somethingmore meaningful and deeper.
And I know this was a throwaway commentthat you weren't meeting, but I'm thinking
like, or not just like leasing officespace to X slash Twitter.
(28:40):
Yeah, I mean, so we actually have a toolabout how to rent well to really good as
another guide about how to rent well.
And we describe we talk about that sort ofdynamic of the money and mission
alignment, like, you know, and there aretimes sometimes we're just maybe renting
for money sake to support other parts ofmission makes sense, but only doing that
(29:02):
intentionally and knowing that's whatyou're doing.
But but you're right and not doing it in away that sort of undermines your mission,
right?
And you're
we're trying to accomplish.
So absolutely, the more we can align moneyin mission, the better.
Yeah.
Yeah, what do you think that, and this iskind of a three part question, so if you
want to answer all of it or just take oneaspect, what do you think that churches or
(29:27):
pastors or medical judicatories can do toprepare?
Maybe that's too big of a question.
Like, maybe what are some warning signs?
Feel free to answer this how you think isbest.
Yeah, I mean, I guess there's a few thingsI would suggest.
One is I think we need to be real aboutwhere it's going.
I think that, you know, to not sort ofhide or assume, I think I sometimes will
(29:52):
bluntly say in many settings we're past,we're way past the point of sort of
talking about revitalization of all ofthese places.
I love revitalization.
There's nothing that's great, but in manysettings we're past that point and we need
to be real about, okay,
That's not going to happen in thisparticular instance.
So then what?
So be real about it.
(30:12):
And then do it earlier than later.
The other thing we're seeing that's reallya struggle is when church is way too long
and there's not many people left to makeany good decisions.
And then they have no choice, but to sortof just stick a for sale sign out in the
front yard and sell it.
You know, you really, it takes years.
And especially if you're going to dodevelopment, many, many years.
(30:35):
three, five, seven, ten sometimes years todo a good thoughtful development.
Yeah, and so you can't just sort of say,well, we're going to run out of money next
December and then let's do something aboutit now.
It's too late at that point, right?
So I think thinking ahead is reallyimportant.
(30:56):
And there are, like I'd say there areexpert resources, like the, you know,
good, really good, our accelerator programis super helpful.
It really works.
26 churches went through a pilot and allof the ones that finished found it, 90%
found it helpful and basically all of themhave started some new venture of some
kind.
Sometimes quite simple and you know, smallrelative and then some of them are doing
(31:22):
big development projects and everything inbetween.
And so there are resources out there Ithink that are helping churches and
judicatories help churches.
to think differently about this stuff.
And then ultimately I'd say just let'shold onto hope.
I mean, for me, this is actually a hopefulmoment.
There's a lot of kind of like, oh gosh,it's closing, it's whatever, whatever.
(31:43):
And yeah, there's sadness for sure in thesame way that when our beloveds die and we
are sad about that, but we're, at least Ibelieve we're a faith of resurrection, a
new life.
And...
And there's hopefulness and newexpressions of what it means to be the
Christian church that are emerging.
And so just holding tightly to that as wenavigate this coming decade I think is
(32:10):
going to be really important.
Yeah, I appreciate that word about notwaiting too long because I'm imagining,
you know, the kind of stereotypical churchwhere they've got nine people left who are
over, all over 80 like, God bless thosepeople.
I'm sure they're dedicated and love theirchurch, but they're probably not going to
have the energy right or the passion toreally go do a big undertaking.
(32:33):
So that's very helpful to think about.
Like, so what does that do?
I imagine I'm giving you a chance, Iguess, to plug your company here.
Is that one of the things you all try todo is really like work through some
strategic planning with churches and say,Hey, like.
you know if we get if we in this kind offinancial pinch or finance or attendance
(32:54):
numbers look like this or we really likefeel like this is what God is calling us
to like how does that work with churchesif that's something you do I guess
Yeah, I mean, not exactly what youdescribed, but like I said, I mean, the
accelerator program that we have isdesigned for churches to do on their own.
They can access, they get a box sent tothem in the mail with all the guides they
(33:15):
need and all these beautiful table sheetsand some games and gamified activities for
their leadership team and for thecongregation to do.
And then they access some video contentand they work through this process
together that leads them to
some ideas about what to actually do, someactual ideas around social enterprise.
(33:37):
And again, it's not sort of a generalrevitalization curriculum or a general
Bible study curriculum, but it's reallyfocused on, okay, we have these assets,
this building, this land, we have visionof maybe some ideas, maybe not.
We have people that live around us andthat work around us.
And what can we do to...
(33:59):
put forward new expressions of ourministry in the world through these
resources.
And it works.
People do it and it works.
And so, you know, we're really excitedabout that because we think there's a lot
of potential for that to move folksforward.
They'll still need to find partners whenthey get through the other side on that,
(34:20):
some of that stuff, especially if you'redeveloping property, you can't do that on
your own.
But
We've seen so many churches try to skipover this discernment phase and just go
straight to sort of real estatetransactions.
And that is not particularly helpful wayto start.
(34:41):
We think it's really helpful to start withlike grounding in who we are, what we're
about, what ideas are, what ourtheological commitments are, who our
neighborhood is, what do we want to see,what does flourishing look like.
Right.
from there.
And then the other technical stuff worksitself out after those other parts are
(35:02):
clear.
Yeah, that's a good word.
Whether it's something as big as propertydevelopment or as little as like starting
a new ministry, like really knowing likedoes this flow out of who we are and what
we want to be.
That's a good, that's a good reminder.
So let's, let's do last question herebefore we take a break.
I wonder like, do you have like anightmare scenario where you wake up in
(35:25):
2030 and you're like, oh my goodness, thishas come to pass.
Like.
Or do you have, and then conversely,what's your dream scenario, if that makes
sense?
I mean, I think the nightmares here, I'vesort of hinted at, which is, you know, 20
years from now, we have like 40 percentless socially oriented property, church
property and so on.
(35:46):
That's now no longer being used for thecommunity in any way, but it's privately
owned.
That's been monetized for private purposesand is never accessible again.
I mean, one of the one of the folks thatwrote a chapter in
gone for good, walks by regularly thelocation where he was ordained as a
(36:08):
pastor.
But that location is now simply ahigh-rise, high-end condo building that
you can never – he can't even get into it.
You know, and nobody – nothing happensthere besides a few wealthy people living
there.
And again, there's nothing wrong withpeople living somewhere.
But that's a shame when that – if thathappens to all these properties.
(36:30):
To me, that's the worst case scenario.
If it happens to a few of them, fine, butof all of them, that would be a real
shame.
I think the best case is sort of, it's notthat, right?
It's buildings and land that are housingpeople that need places to live and
feeding people through grocery co-ops andengaging people through community centers
and restoring people through land back andinspiring people through social
(36:53):
entrepreneurship.
It's being the church with our buildingsand land, right?
It's like...
doing the things that the church can doand joining in with communities and with
restorative, justice-oriented, life-givingactivity and leaving the good news out
with our buildings and land.
And I think that actually can also happen.
(37:15):
That's the other possible place we end up.
I'm hoping it's more of the latter thanthe former.
Yeah, I watch a lot of like urban planningtype YouTubes And people who don't come
across as like Real devoted to the churcheven they like mention like what a loss it
is when an old historic church is Torndown or just turned into condos like
(37:38):
people even in the community who may notbe a part of A weekly attendant recognize
the value that these spaces are.
So I'm with you.
I'm hoping for something more positivehere.
Let's take a break and we'll come backwith some closing questions.
All right, my dogs were going bonkersthere for a minute.
Two.
All right, do you need a minute or elseI'll reintroduce you.
(38:04):
All right.
All right.
All right.
Alright we're back with Mark Elsden.
Mark thanks so much for your time.
The book is again gone for good.
Should be available wherever books aresold so check it out.
Mark you can take these closing questionsas seriously or not as you'd like to.
Although I don't know if people would becool if you answered about selling the
(38:27):
Vatican for condos.
So if you're Pope for a day, besidesselling the Vatican for condos, what would
you do?
Yeah, if I was Pope for the day, well, Iassume you mean if I had the ability to
influence the church at a scale like that.
Yeah, I'll answer it fairly sort oftechnically because this is my area, I
(38:51):
guess, and keep it in this space.
So my previous book, which we talked abouta couple of years ago on this podcast, We
Aren't Broke, is focused on...
church investment money mostly.
So I did have a chapter in there aboutproperty, but mostly it was about
investment money, savings, and my realdream would be to see both these pieces
(39:12):
come together.
So putting church investment money, takingit out of the stock market and out of
traditional investments, at least some ofit, and moving it into investing in social
enterprise and development on churchproperty, and bringing those two
powerhouses together
It's literally trillions of dollars aroundthe world of assets, both property assets
(39:36):
and investment assets, and putting themtogether to work for mission-oriented
social enterprise activity is just superexciting to me.
So it might, it's maybe not funny, but itis a dream that I have.
If I had the opportunity to say, let's dothis, let's do this.
(39:56):
We've got what we need.
We have everything there.
Let's just get on and...
and do some cool stuff with it.
Yeah.
got the spirit of the question, so goodjob there.
A theologian or historical Christianfigure you'd want to meet or bring back to
life.
Yeah, that's interesting.
It's actually not something I think aboutvery often, to be totally honest with you,
(40:17):
but I did think about it when you sharedthis question with me that I'd love to
meet this guy, St.
Cuthbert.
He's a seventh century saint from northernEngland and near the Scottish border, what
is now the Scottish border.
And in part because there's a connectionto my family name that came out of a
(40:39):
church where St.
Cuthbert's body lay
centuries ago, but also he was the mostremarkable person.
He lived on this tiny island calledLindisfarne Holy Island off of the east
coast of England.
And then that island that's so tiny wastoo big for him, so he moved to a tinier
island off of that island and lived byhimself amongst the birds.
(41:04):
And he's just got some amazing stories.
This is way back seventh centuryChristianity.
some of the earliest European Christianitythat existed.
So I just think it'd be really interestingto talk with somebody like that.
I have no idea what they would think ofany of what we have discussed today, but
it'd be fascinating, yeah.
(41:25):
what do you think history will rememberfrom our current time and place?
Well again, and the theme that we're atright today, I think we're at a real key
inflection point in American Christianityat least.
Different elsewhere in the world, butwe're living through not just an
incremental shift, but a major shift inthe way people engage their faith.
I mean, as we read any of this sort ofinformation coming out of any of the
(41:47):
studies around this, this is a huge momentin what Christianity's gonna look like in
the United States, and it has implicationsall over the place.
So I don't know, I mean there's a sense ofresponsibility, a bit of sense of awe, a
bit of sense of fear, and also hopefully asense of hope, because all of that's
(42:08):
happening right now.
Well, let's stay on that theme and framethis way.
What do you hope for at least AmericanChristianity then?
Yeah, I'm gonna, if it's okay, I'm gonnajust read a few sentences from the book on
that because, um, so, I think that lettinggo of property can be freeing,
(42:31):
relinquishing control can be life-givingto others, giving land back can be deeply
healing, and redeveloping can berestorative.
Repurposing church property is a chance todo something new.
It allows us to think differently, to seemore vividly, listen more deeply, and love
more fully.
It's an opportunity to take the good newsoutside the Sunday worship service.
(42:55):
The transition of church property is oneof the largest issues facing the church
today.
It is also one of our greatestopportunities.
Yes, churches, buildings, and propertywill be gone.
Of this, there is no doubt.
But, I'm incredibly hopeful that new andgood things will emerge.
and that they will be gone for good.
(43:16):
That's good.
Let's leave it there.
So always leave folks with a word ofpeace.
So may God's peace be with you.
All right, we're done.
Alright, welcome to the show Mark Elsden,thanks so much for being here.
Anything else you'd like our listeners toknow about you?
Well, my bio ends with a reference toriding my bike, which is, if anyone knows
me well, the sort of defining thing aboutwhat I do with my time.
It is winter in Wisconsin at the moment,so I am preparing to ride in the snow.
(00:21):
So you can keep that in mind if you're ina warmer climate.
well looks like if i if that's a realwindow behind you look to your blue skies
today so writing home
but it is cold and I'm riding my bike homelater, yes.
Yeah, I was actually going to ask you howthat's going.
The bike mileage versus the car mileage.
(00:42):
It's going, I think I've got it again thisyear.
So yeah, more bike, more bike mileage thancar mileage.
Yep.
That's very impressive.
Well, thanks so much for your time andlooking forward to having this
conversation.
Sure.
If you would, you've been on the podbefore, but sure.
If you would just about kind of your faithjourney, what that looked like in the past
and what that looks like today.
(01:03):
Yeah, I mean, I'm a Presbyterian minister.
I grew up, my parents are immigrants fromEngland.
They were, grew up Church of England, andthen I grew up going to a Lutheran church.
I actually opened my new book, Gone forGood, with a whole series of stories of
(01:25):
ways that different churches shaped meover the years, everything from...
giving me my family name in NorthernEngland to a place where I would hide out
and play basketball instead of going onlong runs during cross-country practice in
high school to meeting my spouse, servingat a meal for food insecure people in
(01:49):
Berkeley, California, and all these otherstories of way churches have shaped me.
And so, yeah, I'm very conscious of theways.
that I am who I am because of theconnections I've had to faith communities
over the years.
Awesome.
What's a spiritual practice that you'd sayis sustaining you right now?
(02:10):
Yeah, I, you know, in addition to ridingmy bike and as sort of an active prayer
and an active sort of communal living, Irecently got a dog.
I think you have a dog, but I recently gota dog and walking my dog in the
neighborhood has become a really nicespiritual practice, just, you know, a
(02:31):
chance to take a break.
Days that I work from home, I like to justget out for a little brief walk after
lunch and just to pause.
Mm-hmm.
I've been really trying to focus on thatsort of Sabbath act, even if I do like to
take a full Sabbath day, but sometimesit's just a Sabbath act in the middle of a
day is as powerful as anything.
(02:52):
So I've been enjoying that.
Yeah, I'll be doing that when we're donehere, so recommend.
doesn't let you kind of, my dog at least,doesn't let me sort of run around the
block.
He likes to poke around and take his timeand smell everything and that forces you
to slow down to something powerful aboutthat.
Yep, yep, good, good.
Well, as Mark hinted at, we're talkingabout his new book called Gone For Good.
(03:20):
And Mark, you'll have to tell us as we'rerecording this, is this available yet for
purchase?
I imagine when this releases it maybe,when is it coming out?
How about that?
The book comes out January 9th, so it isavailable for pre-order now and any
pre-orders before that ship I think on the9th.
I actually have the book here, my copy ofit, but it's available to the public
(03:44):
January 9th.
Great, so when this releases it should beavailable for folks, so check it out at
minimum if this comes out early forpre-order.
But we're going to kind of talk through alittle teaser video that Mark highlighted
on his website, kind of talking about thebook and talk through some themes here.
So the first thing in this video youshared, and Mark, I'll try to make sure
(04:04):
that's included in the show notes, just sofolks get that same...
That same...
video but the first thing that jumped outto me when I watched that is you share a
statistic that an estimated 100 000buildings and again I want to say that
number 100 000 buildings will be sold orrepurposed by 2030 so that number kind of
(04:34):
astounds me so do you want to talk throughthat a little bit
Yeah, I mean, so I think the first thingto note is that these are estimates.
There's really no really clear data outthere.
Even most denominations don't even knowhow many buildings are associated with
their denomination.
But the estimates that a number ofdifferent people have made on this issue
(04:59):
are somewhere in that range of 100,000churches closing or buildings being sold
or repurposed.
you know those are exactly the same thingbut uh...
but the connected and that's that amountsto a third or a quarter of all churches in
the united states uh...
until it's a huge number right so that'sthe reason the book is references the
(05:22):
coming wave of church property transitionand it really is a massive wave that's
going to crash upon the shores of americanchristianity in the next decade now this
doesn't mean all churches are going toclose and
Right.
going to be sold and new churches willstill happen and emerge and plants will
happen and some churches will continue togrow.
(05:43):
All of that, you know, that's all true.
God's not going anywhere, you know, butthere's a massive change happening in the
way people connect with God and engage intheir faith and that's translating into a
different use of buildings and property.
I've actually been...
Thinking about this a little bit recentlyin terms of kind of the Blockbuster video
(06:04):
moment that we had in the early 2000swhere, you know, there was a shift from
going down to the Blockbuster store,renting a video off the shelf, taking it
home, returning it three days later, andsuddenly we were getting our DVDs in the
mail through Netflix.
And then it wasn't very long after that wewere just streaming them.
(06:26):
you know people still want the experienceof watching movie they still want to watch
a movie but uh...
the spaces the physical spaces where theyaccess those movies just change
dramatically and i think there's somethingsimilar going on uh...
in people's spiritual life uh...
they still want to believe experiences ofthe divine want to connect with god they
(06:46):
want to connect with meaning with eachother with purpose but it's not happening
as much
in Sunday morning worship services andSunday school Christian education classes,
which is what we built for decades anddecades.
We built buildings for those things.
(07:07):
But just kind of berating ourselves forthat is not particularly helpful.
It'd be like telling the Blockbuster Videostore manager that they just need to try
harder and put a new sign outside and kindof just do something better.
and then people will come back into thestore.
That would never have happened.
And it doesn't matter how much they tried,right?
And there's a bit of that dynamic going onin the church today.
(07:32):
It's just a change in the way people areconnecting with God and again, not
everyone.
There's always gonna be worship, corporateworship, and there will be good Sunday
school classes and all of that, and therewill be traditional church buildings and
experiences, but just not as much.
of it as we had in the past.
(07:55):
Yeah, you know, if I can stay on thatBlockbuster video theme for a second, um,
my wife and I went to look at renting anew movie streaming on Amazon.
It was like 10 bucks.
And I was kind of like, a new videorelease at Blockbuster was even like five
bucks back in the day.
So I don't know what that's about.
And there's far less overhead.
(08:17):
Anyway, I digress there.
So I think a key question, if I remembercorrectly, you ask in the video is what
will be left and how will it affectcommunities and neighborhoods?
So you've obviously given a lot to thoughtto this.
I imagine the book really tackles thesequestions.
Do you wanna share some thoughts you'vehad and some of your contributors have
(08:40):
had?
Yeah, so one of the questions I have isnot only what does this mean for the
church or church-going people, which isobviously significant, but what does it
mean for the social infrastructure ofcommunities, right?
This space is where things happen.
Where will the Girl Scout troop meet?
(09:01):
And where will the AA groups meet?
Mm-hmm.
Loads of A groups meet in churches.
Where will we vote?
In my community, voting happens atchurches all over the city.
If those churches are something else in 10years, where are we gonna vote?
Where will people pick up food at the foodpantry?
Where will they meet significant others?
(09:21):
And where will kids' violin lessonspractice?
I mean, there's just endless things thathappen in churches in addition to the
spiritual life that is gonna be missing.
And I don't think we fully recognize thatreality of where all that space is going
and what it becomes.
(09:44):
And that concerns me.
And especially if that space moves frombeing a socially oriented space to being
basically privately owned and monetized bylargely wealthy people, investors,
developers, and so on, then...
We've lost a lot.
We've lost a lot of social infrastructurewith that change in use.
(10:06):
And I think that's a big deal.
I think it's going to really impactcommunities in ways that we don't fully
fathom yet if we just let that happen allover the place.
Let me give an example just because I justsaw something while I was eating lunch on
threads.
In my metro area, there was an old Baptistchurch in a neighborhood that I actually
(10:29):
lived in when I was a teenager in Denver.
And I think they tore down part of thechurch and built condos.
And then the real historic part of thesanctuary...
once you know it was a brewery, and nowthat brewery is actually closing.
So again, there's this question of what'sgonna happen to that space, and of course,
because I'm totally a church nerd, I said,hey, like, make it a church again.
(10:54):
Unlikely to happen, someone else said,it's probably gonna become a dispensary.
But it kind of speaks to your point thereof these public spaces becoming less and
less accessible to the public, and I thinkthat's certainly a...
A dynamic that I've noticed is this kindof privatization of space where you have
(11:15):
to you have to essentially pay to getanywhere.
I'm sure you're you've noticed this tooand others have talked about like public
libraries are one of the few kind ofpublic spaces available in many
communities and they themselves are beingunderfunded right?
That's right.
Yeah, I mean the Partners for SacredPlaces, who has a couple chapters in the
(11:36):
book, they did a study on the halo effectof churches and one of the amazing things
they found was that in one area that theystudied, I think it was 87% of visits to
the churches in that community had nothingto do with worship.
It was just community activity that wasgoing on, right?
And I mean in my view that's part of whatit means to be the church.
(11:56):
Obviously worship is central but alsothese other things are too.
That's how Christian life is lived out inthe world, in my view, right?
It's through that sort of stuff.
And so, you know, yeah, the privatizationand the kind of closing off of space.
And again, if it happens once or twice ina neighborhood or in a city, that's one
(12:20):
thing.
But when it happens with 40 out of 100,that's a completely different story,
right?
So if one church building becomes high-endcondos,
all right, maybe that's not a huge deal.
But again, if 25, 30, 40% of them in acity do, then you've got a real change
going on.
And as you noted, it's not going back.
(12:43):
Like, you know, once those are no longerchurches and they're owned privately,
they're not gonna be churches again andnot at any foreseeable future.
I mean, who knows?
Obviously things may change and, you know,religious life in America might look
really different in a hundred years, butin our sort of...
Yeah.
and vision, it's not going back to being achurch.
So we have kind of one chance totransition these properties.
(13:07):
They're going to change one way or theother.
It doesn't matter whether we want them toor not.
They just, they are going to sort of likeblockbuster.
But the question before us is what are wegoing to do about that and how do we sort
of intentionally think about thosetransitions in a way that leaves good in
their place?
That's why I titled the book Gone forGood.
(13:28):
gone for good, as in something good comingout, or are they gone forever?
And that's it, yeah.
So there's a church that...
I shouldn't name names here so I won't.
There's a church in my neck of the woodsthat is open right now.
And I have an aspiration of becoming theirpastor because my thought is long term,
(13:51):
like one way or another that property isgoing to become condos.
Like they can either develop it...
Thoughtfully and intentionally in somecapacity or it's just gonna get turned
into all condos one way or another So youpropose what you say thoughtful
intervention to talk about what that mightlook like
(14:12):
Yeah, I mean, I think what I'm suggestingis that we shape this transition rather
than letting it just shape us, because Ithink if we just let it unfold, we're
going to be unhappy with the outcome whenwe look back, say, 20 years from now.
I mean, if market forces are all thatdrive, they will push us towards financial
outcomes and not spiritual or socialoutcomes that, you know, are about
(14:34):
flourishing of neighborhoods.
So...
In my view, thoughtful intervention is theact of intentionally seeking good in our
community with the use of property, notjust disposing of it, monetizing it, or
walking away from it, which is very oftenwhat happens in the end.
And so yeah, it's exactly what youdescribed.
That property you're describing andthinking of is going to look different.
(14:57):
There's just no question about it.
So what is the looking different going tobe?
And if it's going to be housing, thatcould be really cool.
But what kind of housing?
Who's going to own the housing?
Where's the money going when that housingis done?
Who's going to live in that housing?
Is that going to contribute to flourishingin that neighborhood, or is it going to
just further gentrify the neighborhood insome way?
(15:19):
Those are all the sorts of questions thatwe, as the church, have a chance to decide
now, and we won't have a chance to decidelater.
Once a property is sold or redone, that'sit.
We're out of that opportunity to influencewhat will happen there.
I appreciate what you're saying about thegone, you know, that kind of the plan
(15:44):
words gone for good or gone forcontributing good because one pastor I've
spoken to, you know, he really lamentedthis idea like we're never getting back
these kind of downtown really corelocations that
(16:08):
were really vital parts of the community.
So what do you what do you tell churchesor middle judicatories?
What kind of wisdom or thoughts do you askthem to consider before you know they sell
a property even if it just because of thelocation for instance?
(16:28):
Yeah, so Rooted Good, one of theorganizations I work with, we actually
designed a guide how to sell well, whichis all about it sort of takes people
through this decision making process andit's exactly that, right?
It's thinking about first of all, arethere alternatives to selling?
Because there are many times alternativesto selling.
I often will ask people simply, why notgive it away?
(16:51):
Give it away to a different churchcommunity that can use it or give it.
give the land back to indigenous peoplesthat lived there before as an act of
restoration.
If we're not using it anyways, I'd rathersee that happen potentially than sort of
monetizing it for private gain.
Yeah, exactly.
Or could we do social enterprise on it?
Or could we partner in some way anddevelop some, at least some housing or
(17:14):
something or other that contributes to theneighborhood?
There's lots of different alternatives.
But if you are going to sell it, thenthere's questions around what are you
going to do with the proceeds?
Right.
because there's better and not betterthings we can do with the money when it
comes in, right?
And who are we selling it to?
Because again, you have one chance todecide who to sell it to.
(17:37):
I'm not opposed to selling, but I will saythat I think that is a cautionary word,
and that we won't get them back.
So I'm also the pastor at Press House,
Our story is super interesting becausethere were three campus ministry centers
(17:58):
Presbyterian sold about the same time orattempted to be sold in the late 1990s.
Our Synod sold the campus center at theUniversity of Minnesota and at the
University of Iowa and they tried to sellthe one here at the University of
Wisconsin.
But local people in Madison resisted thatsale and instead held onto it and we
redeveloped the property.
(18:19):
We have student housing.
on the property and now fast forward 20years.
There's no active Presbyterian ministry atthe University of Minnesota or Iowa.
There's no property at those schools.
The money that was gained is basicallygone.
Here in Wisconsin, we serve a thousandstudents a year through our ministry.
(18:40):
Our property is worth like 25 milliondollars and we generate two and a half
million dollars a year in revenue.
It's like a completely different outcome.
you know, it's so starkly differentbecause we decided to do something
different than just dispose of it.
Now again, there is too much property,church's own, we will have to dispose of
(19:02):
in some way, but we can influence the waythat is done and what ends up going in
there at those moments, at those keymoments.
Yeah.
So we've kind of been talking around thisand I want to ask this directly.
What do we, how about, how about the lossof sacred space?
(19:25):
I'm a big believer, I'll say in sacredspace.
And to me, at least there's something thatas much as I understand the practicalities
of like a multifunction worship space, Ialso
having been someone who's worshiped in aelementary school gymnasium, like, know
(19:47):
what the downsides of that are.
So talk about, what do you think about theloss of sacred space, or why or does
sacred space matter in these contexts?
Yeah, it does.
I think you're absolutely right.
I mean, I believe God's present in allcircumstances, in all places, not only
church or worship, but there is sort of aspecial promise that God meets us in
(20:12):
sacred spaces and sacred practices likethe sacraments and spaces that are set
aside for us to pause.
you know, to put aside the normal activityof life, to think differently, and space
does that, right?
When you enter into well-designed space orintentional space, it changes the way we
think, and I think we need that.
(20:33):
We need those transitional experiences toallow us to encounter God in different
ways.
So absolutely, there is something reallyvaluable about sacred space, and there is
something sad about seeing a lot of sacredspace in the United States.
decline, not just the church's decline,but the space itself.
(20:55):
Deferred mansions and things, they start,they leak, you've got issues, right?
But that is the way things go.
Things age, things change.
And so yeah, I absolutely think there is aplace for sacred space.
I think what we're doing now or thinkingabout now is how does that get sort of
(21:17):
re-envisioned?
as part of these multi-use projects ifthey're being redeveloped.
And how does it get right-sized a littlebit?
Do we need maybe as much sacred space?
Maybe not.
But we still need it, for sure.
This is a related question.
(21:37):
And I'm thinking about this in the contextof, again, like the prevalence of like
multi-purpose space.
And it seems like we're really as asociety like thinking, unless you're an
NFL team, right, then you can get your owndedicated stadium for $5 billion.
But in most other contexts, it'smulti-use, multi-purpose,
multi-everything.
(21:59):
And I think about...
And I may be wrong in this, but my thoughtis that the kind of thinking has crept its
way into the church in that a church hasgot to kind of prove its value to the
community through multi-usage.
And I'm curious, this is kind of a bigtheological question.
Like is a, is a church building or a spacein the church existing only for worship
(22:24):
and faith formation, like is that enough?
And I know that's a loaded question, butI'm kind of curious your thoughts there.
Yeah, I mean, I think it is enough.
I don't think we need, I don't think wehave to have something beyond that.
I think that is perfectly acceptable as ause of space.
I think there's a couple of responses Ihave to that.
(22:45):
One is, yes, it is enough, but again,there's too much of it for how, it's
again, it's more a matter of scale andsort of use and size than it is like
purpose in some ways.
So,
Mm-hmm.
there's just too much of that only space,right?
For the number of people using it in thatway and for what it can do in a community.
(23:10):
So that's one sort of thought there.
And then the other is, I do think we, Ilike to think a bit beyond sort of the
divide between sacred and worship andfaith formation and in other activities.
So, in my view, giving church land back toindigenous peoples that were there before
the church, that's an act of worship.
Mm-hmm.
And if that space is more than we need,then it's an act of worship to do that.
(23:34):
Or turning an unused Christian educationwing into like a social entrepreneur
incubator space.
It's not like it isn't, it's not as ifworship's not enough, but doing that is an
act of faith formation, or it can be.
Providing long-term housing at cost peoplecan afford is a way of living out.
(23:54):
our faith commitments of justice andloving our neighbors.
So I would frame a lot of those activitiesas expressions of our worship life and our
faith life, if they're done, again, ifthey're done sort of well, right?
So it's a combination of a bit of rightsizing of the amount of that space, and
then also of thinking about different waysto engage with.
(24:19):
with people.
And you know, I work with young people andthey are very interested in what does it
mean to live out faith in the day to dayand not just in Sunday.
And these are ways of doing that.
But I would never say that it's not enoughto have, you know, worship in a space is
not enough.
It is enough.
(24:39):
But there's also other, at the same time,there's also other expressions that space
can be used for.
So kind of both.
Yeah.
that's a helpful response.
Let me ask this too, and this is more apractical question.
That's maybe not so much for churches thatare thinking about selling or repurposing
(25:02):
to something non-church related, but thisis a dynamic that I've seen that I'm
curious how you would counsel churches isI think there can be a bit of this.
what I'll call like a tail wagging the dogscenario where again from my from my bias,
like I believe the purpose of the churchfirst and first and foremost purposes is
(25:24):
worship and faith formation right sothat's my bias at least where I've seen
these dynamics where you get rental spaceor child care whatever and these kind of
other revenue streams that can support.
the mission and ministry of the churchkind of become almost a tail-whacking the
(25:45):
dog scenario, at least from myperspective.
So I'm kind of curious, like, how wouldyou, how would you, I don't know, counsel
churches, like, like if they're like, hey,we're going to, we're going to develop,
like, like y'all did, like we're going todevelop a, a living situation, a
residences on our property.
How do we, how do we organize it?
(26:06):
How do we do it in a way that we're reallyliving out of our mission and our
ministry?
Yeah, I mean I think there's a coupledifferent directions that can take so
sometimes
for churches the wise approach is to sortof make use of land and buildings simply
differently for the good of theircommunity and that might involve a
(26:27):
partnership with somebody to develophousing or something like that.
And they might continue their worship lifein a smaller part of that.
Again, it's sort of like fitting down thesize a bit and then using that excess for
other things.
(26:48):
Even before the COVID pandemic, we're onlyin use like 17% of the week.
Like, it's a pretty poor utilization of areally valuable resource, right?
And if a church is interested in doingsocial enterprise or sort of development
that really is connected directly to themand their mission, then we always
(27:08):
encourage them to think about who they areand who their neighborhood is and how
those things connect.
So Rooted Good offers a Good FuturesAccelerator program.
that is designed for churches.
It's about a seven month program thatchurches go through to think about using
their buildings and land for socialenterprise, for exactly what you're
describing, but to do it reallythoughtfully, not just to be like, hey, I
(27:32):
read an article about X, let's do that,but to start all the way back with who are
we, who has God called us to be over time,what connects to our congregation deeply.
You know, the projects I've seen that aremost interesting are the ones where it's
tied in with some historical legacy thechurch is interested in or has been a part
(27:53):
of.
So like taking a really powerful foodpantry ministry and then expanding it and
turning that into a grocery co-op owned bythe neighborhood.
So you turn like this sort of beloved 30,40, 50 year ministry into something.
that's got a new version of that, but it'sstill tied in with something historic and
(28:15):
something that's deeply rooted in who thatchurch is and who the neighborhood is.
Not just picking some idea off the shelfand innovating for innovation's sake, but
really trying to ground it in somethingmore meaningful and deeper.
And I know this was a throwaway commentthat you weren't meeting, but I'm thinking
like, or not just like leasing officespace to X slash Twitter.
(28:40):
Yeah, I mean, so we actually have a toolabout how to rent well to really good as
another guide about how to rent well.
And we describe we talk about that sort ofdynamic of the money and mission
alignment, like, you know, and there aretimes sometimes we're just maybe renting
for money sake to support other parts ofmission makes sense, but only doing that
(29:02):
intentionally and knowing that's whatyou're doing.
But but you're right and not doing it in away that sort of undermines your mission,
right?
And you're
we're trying to accomplish.
So absolutely, the more we can align moneyin mission, the better.
Yeah.
Yeah, what do you think that, and this iskind of a three part question, so if you
want to answer all of it or just take oneaspect, what do you think that churches or
(29:27):
pastors or medical judicatories can do toprepare?
Maybe that's too big of a question.
Like, maybe what are some warning signs?
Feel free to answer this how you think isbest.
Yeah, I mean, I guess there's a few thingsI would suggest.
One is I think we need to be real aboutwhere it's going.
I think that, you know, to not sort ofhide or assume, I think I sometimes will
(29:52):
bluntly say in many settings we're past,we're way past the point of sort of
talking about revitalization of all ofthese places.
I love revitalization.
There's nothing that's great, but in manysettings we're past that point and we need
to be real about, okay,
That's not going to happen in thisparticular instance.
So then what?
So be real about it.
(30:12):
And then do it earlier than later.
The other thing we're seeing that's reallya struggle is when church is way too long
and there's not many people left to makeany good decisions.
And then they have no choice, but to sortof just stick a for sale sign out in the
front yard and sell it.
You know, you really, it takes years.
And especially if you're going to dodevelopment, many, many years.
(30:35):
three, five, seven, ten sometimes years todo a good thoughtful development.
Yeah, and so you can't just sort of say,well, we're going to run out of money next
December and then let's do something aboutit now.
It's too late at that point, right?
So I think thinking ahead is reallyimportant.
(30:56):
And there are, like I'd say there areexpert resources, like the, you know,
good, really good, our accelerator programis super helpful.
It really works.
26 churches went through a pilot and allof the ones that finished found it, 90%
found it helpful and basically all of themhave started some new venture of some
kind.
Sometimes quite simple and you know, smallrelative and then some of them are doing
(31:22):
big development projects and everything inbetween.
And so there are resources out there Ithink that are helping churches and
judicatories help churches.
to think differently about this stuff.
And then ultimately I'd say just let'shold onto hope.
I mean, for me, this is actually a hopefulmoment.
There's a lot of kind of like, oh gosh,it's closing, it's whatever, whatever.
(31:43):
And yeah, there's sadness for sure in thesame way that when our beloveds die and we
are sad about that, but we're, at least Ibelieve we're a faith of resurrection, a
new life.
And...
And there's hopefulness and newexpressions of what it means to be the
Christian church that are emerging.
And so just holding tightly to that as wenavigate this coming decade I think is
(32:10):
going to be really important.
Yeah, I appreciate that word about notwaiting too long because I'm imagining,
you know, the kind of stereotypical churchwhere they've got nine people left who are
over, all over 80 like, God bless thosepeople.
I'm sure they're dedicated and love theirchurch, but they're probably not going to
have the energy right or the passion toreally go do a big undertaking.
(32:33):
So that's very helpful to think about.
Like, so what does that do?
I imagine I'm giving you a chance, Iguess, to plug your company here.
Is that one of the things you all try todo is really like work through some
strategic planning with churches and say,Hey, like.
you know if we get if we in this kind offinancial pinch or finance or attendance
(32:54):
numbers look like this or we really likefeel like this is what God is calling us
to like how does that work with churchesif that's something you do I guess
Yeah, I mean, not exactly what youdescribed, but like I said, I mean, the
accelerator program that we have isdesigned for churches to do on their own.
They can access, they get a box sent tothem in the mail with all the guides they
(33:15):
need and all these beautiful table sheetsand some games and gamified activities for
their leadership team and for thecongregation to do.
And then they access some video contentand they work through this process
together that leads them to
some ideas about what to actually do, someactual ideas around social enterprise.
(33:37):
And again, it's not sort of a generalrevitalization curriculum or a general
Bible study curriculum, but it's reallyfocused on, okay, we have these assets,
this building, this land, we have visionof maybe some ideas, maybe not.
We have people that live around us andthat work around us.
And what can we do to...
(33:59):
put forward new expressions of ourministry in the world through these
resources.
And it works.
People do it and it works.
And so, you know, we're really excitedabout that because we think there's a lot
of potential for that to move folksforward.
They'll still need to find partners whenthey get through the other side on that,
(34:20):
some of that stuff, especially if you'redeveloping property, you can't do that on
your own.
But
We've seen so many churches try to skipover this discernment phase and just go
straight to sort of real estatetransactions.
And that is not particularly helpful wayto start.
(34:41):
We think it's really helpful to start withlike grounding in who we are, what we're
about, what ideas are, what ourtheological commitments are, who our
neighborhood is, what do we want to see,what does flourishing look like.
Right.
from there.
And then the other technical stuff worksitself out after those other parts are
(35:02):
clear.
Yeah, that's a good word.
Whether it's something as big as propertydevelopment or as little as like starting
a new ministry, like really knowing likedoes this flow out of who we are and what
we want to be.
That's a good, that's a good reminder.
So let's, let's do last question herebefore we take a break.
I wonder like, do you have like anightmare scenario where you wake up in
(35:25):
2030 and you're like, oh my goodness, thishas come to pass.
Like.
Or do you have, and then conversely,what's your dream scenario, if that makes
sense?
I mean, I think the nightmares here, I'vesort of hinted at, which is, you know, 20
years from now, we have like 40 percentless socially oriented property, church
property and so on.
(35:46):
That's now no longer being used for thecommunity in any way, but it's privately
owned.
That's been monetized for private purposesand is never accessible again.
I mean, one of the one of the folks thatwrote a chapter in
gone for good, walks by regularly thelocation where he was ordained as a
(36:08):
pastor.
But that location is now simply ahigh-rise, high-end condo building that
you can never – he can't even get into it.
You know, and nobody – nothing happensthere besides a few wealthy people living
there.
And again, there's nothing wrong withpeople living somewhere.
But that's a shame when that – if thathappens to all these properties.
(36:30):
To me, that's the worst case scenario.
If it happens to a few of them, fine, butof all of them, that would be a real
shame.
I think the best case is sort of, it's notthat, right?
It's buildings and land that are housingpeople that need places to live and
feeding people through grocery co-ops andengaging people through community centers
and restoring people through land back andinspiring people through social
(36:53):
entrepreneurship.
It's being the church with our buildingsand land, right?
It's like...
doing the things that the church can doand joining in with communities and with
restorative, justice-oriented, life-givingactivity and leaving the good news out
with our buildings and land.
And I think that actually can also happen.
(37:15):
That's the other possible place we end up.
I'm hoping it's more of the latter thanthe former.
Yeah, I watch a lot of like urban planningtype YouTubes And people who don't come
across as like Real devoted to the churcheven they like mention like what a loss it
is when an old historic church is Torndown or just turned into condos like
(37:38):
people even in the community who may notbe a part of A weekly attendant recognize
the value that these spaces are.
So I'm with you.
I'm hoping for something more positivehere.
Let's take a break and we'll come backwith some closing questions.
All right, my dogs were going bonkersthere for a minute.
Two.
All right, do you need a minute or elseI'll reintroduce you.
(38:04):
All right.
All right.
All right.
Alright we're back with Mark Elsden.
Mark thanks so much for your time.
The book is again gone for good.
Should be available wherever books aresold so check it out.
Mark you can take these closing questionsas seriously or not as you'd like to.
Although I don't know if people would becool if you answered about selling the
(38:27):
Vatican for condos.
So if you're Pope for a day, besidesselling the Vatican for condos, what would
you do?
Yeah, if I was Pope for the day, well, Iassume you mean if I had the ability to
influence the church at a scale like that.
Yeah, I'll answer it fairly sort oftechnically because this is my area, I
(38:51):
guess, and keep it in this space.
So my previous book, which we talked abouta couple of years ago on this podcast, We
Aren't Broke, is focused on...
church investment money mostly.
So I did have a chapter in there aboutproperty, but mostly it was about
investment money, savings, and my realdream would be to see both these pieces
(39:12):
come together.
So putting church investment money, takingit out of the stock market and out of
traditional investments, at least some ofit, and moving it into investing in social
enterprise and development on churchproperty, and bringing those two
powerhouses together
It's literally trillions of dollars aroundthe world of assets, both property assets
(39:36):
and investment assets, and putting themtogether to work for mission-oriented
social enterprise activity is just superexciting to me.
So it might, it's maybe not funny, but itis a dream that I have.
If I had the opportunity to say, let's dothis, let's do this.
(39:56):
We've got what we need.
We have everything there.
Let's just get on and...
and do some cool stuff with it.
Yeah.
got the spirit of the question, so goodjob there.
A theologian or historical Christianfigure you'd want to meet or bring back to
life.
Yeah, that's interesting.
It's actually not something I think aboutvery often, to be totally honest with you,
(40:17):
but I did think about it when you sharedthis question with me that I'd love to
meet this guy, St.
Cuthbert.
He's a seventh century saint from northernEngland and near the Scottish border, what
is now the Scottish border.
And in part because there's a connectionto my family name that came out of a
(40:39):
church where St.
Cuthbert's body lay
centuries ago, but also he was the mostremarkable person.
He lived on this tiny island calledLindisfarne Holy Island off of the east
coast of England.
And then that island that's so tiny wastoo big for him, so he moved to a tinier
island off of that island and lived byhimself amongst the birds.
(41:04):
And he's just got some amazing stories.
This is way back seventh centuryChristianity.
some of the earliest European Christianitythat existed.
So I just think it'd be really interestingto talk with somebody like that.
I have no idea what they would think ofany of what we have discussed today, but
it'd be fascinating, yeah.
(41:25):
what do you think history will rememberfrom our current time and place?
Well again, and the theme that we're atright today, I think we're at a real key
inflection point in American Christianityat least.
Different elsewhere in the world, butwe're living through not just an
incremental shift, but a major shift inthe way people engage their faith.
I mean, as we read any of this sort ofinformation coming out of any of the
(41:47):
studies around this, this is a huge momentin what Christianity's gonna look like in
the United States, and it has implicationsall over the place.
So I don't know, I mean there's a sense ofresponsibility, a bit of sense of awe, a
bit of sense of fear, and also hopefully asense of hope, because all of that's
(42:08):
happening right now.
Well, let's stay on that theme and framethis way.
What do you hope for at least AmericanChristianity then?
Yeah, I'm gonna, if it's okay, I'm gonnajust read a few sentences from the book on
that because, um, so, I think that lettinggo of property can be freeing,
(42:31):
relinquishing control can be life-givingto others, giving land back can be deeply
healing, and redeveloping can berestorative.
Repurposing church property is a chance todo something new.
It allows us to think differently, to seemore vividly, listen more deeply, and love
more fully.
It's an opportunity to take the good newsoutside the Sunday worship service.
(42:55):
The transition of church property is oneof the largest issues facing the church
today.
It is also one of our greatestopportunities.
Yes, churches, buildings, and propertywill be gone.
Of this, there is no doubt.
But, I'm incredibly hopeful that new andgood things will emerge.
and that they will be gone for good.
(43:16):
That's good.
Let's leave it there.
So always leave folks with a word ofpeace.
So may God's peace be with you.
All right, we're done.
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