April 23, 2024 • 47 mins
University Chaplain and Professor Nichole Torbitzsky joins the show to talk about her work with college students, how they are engaging and identifying with Christianity, and what are the biggest "stumblingblocks" for students as they consider faith. She also discusses as Open and Relational / Process theology, the importance of community and spiritual connection for young adults, and the challenges faced by college students in finding their identity and place in the church. Torbitzsky believes many young adults feel excluded or unwelcome in traditional church settings and therefore churches need to be more accepting and loving towards all individuals, including those who identify as LGBTQIA+. If churches are going to continue to exist, they will need to connect with the next generation.
Nichole Torbitzky is Associate Professor of Religion and University Chaplain at Lindenwood University in St. Charles, MO. Her current research investigates Whiteheadian notions related to Christian atonement theory. She serves as the editor for the Center for Process and Faith's Lectionary Commentary series. She also serves as editor for Lindenwood University's student research journal, the Confluence.
Instagram: Nichole Torbitzky
Twitter: @ntorbitzky
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Guest Host / Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Executive Producer
Danny Burton - Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:06):
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your source
for insights and ideas on how to lead your church
into the 21st century.
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
(00:27):
Now here's your host, Loren Richmond, Junior.
>> Loren (00:33):
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today
we're welcoming Reverend doctor Nicole Torbitsky.
Nicole is associate professor of religion and University
chaplain at Lindenwood University in St. Charles,
Missouri. Her current research investigates
whiteheadian notions related to christian atonement
theory. She serves as the editor for the center
for Process and Faith's lectionary commentary
(00:56):
series. She also serves as editor for
Lindenwood University's student research journal, the
Confluence. This interview was recorded
in person at the persuade preaching conference at St.
Andrew United Methodist Church. Let's welcome
Nicole to the show.
(01:20):
All right, welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Lauren Richmond,
junior, and I'm, um, pleased to be joined today by
the Reverend doctor Nicole Torbitzky. So
thanks so much for being here.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (01:30):
I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
>> Loren (01:32):
Yeah, we're actually recording in person at, uh,
St. Andrew United Methodist Church in
Highlands Ranch, Colorado, as a part of the
process and preaching conference right now.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (01:43):
Open relational and process preaching conference.
>> Loren (01:45):
Okay. And I guess tomorrow is like a whole new
conference.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (01:50):
Uh, right. Another second conference hosted
by, uh, homebrewed Christianity and Tripp
Fuller, uh, on God after
deconstruction.
>> Loren (01:59):
So a lot going on here, and,
uh, you know, I'm a church nerd, as I.
As I told Nicole. So part of me was just walking
through the space and checking it out this morning. Uh,
but talk about, share, if you would, anything else about
yourself you'd like our listeners to know about you.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (02:14):
Well, recently I put a
book out on preaching and process, um,
with Jeff Wells, Vicki
Randall, and Thomas J. Ord. So we
edited a book with 68
authors who talk about how to
preach from the open, relational and crosses theological
perspective. And we're super excited about it. You can get it
(02:37):
on Amazon and any other bookseller, and I think
we.
>> Loren (02:40):
Just walked by it, right?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (02:41):
We did.
>> Loren (02:42):
I'll say for our listeners, it is probably a couple inches thick. So
you're getting your money's worth with that purchase.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (02:48):
Yeah, I think it's about 500 pages long, and there are
68 authors and 78 separate,
um, submissions. So there's a
lot of good stuff to read if you're a preacher or if you're interested in
exploring the practical applications of open, relational and
process theology.
>> Loren (03:03):
Yeah. So, share, if you would, just kind of your faith journey, what
that's looked like in the past and what that looks like today.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (03:08):
So I was actually really lucky to grow
up United Church of Christ,
and it runs in my family, so we've
had a pastor in my family every other
generation since we came to the United States
back in the 18 hundreds.
>> Loren (03:24):
Your family. Wow.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (03:26):
And when I was 14 and
got my call, and my grandfather, who was a pastor,
was still living, and told him at one
Christmas, and I think I'm gonna. I think
I'm gonna go into the ministry, grandpa. And he
was so delighted. He was
so delighted. And we had a family tradition
(03:46):
of reading the nativity
stories out of Matthew and Luke, and
that year, he gave me the Bible.
>> Loren (03:53):
Wow.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (03:54):
And said, you read it now? And it was
wonderful.
>> Loren (03:58):
Wow.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (03:58):
And from there, it was, uh,
seminary in Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh theological Seminary, and
a PhD in Claremont at Claremont graduate University,
working with Roland Faber and John Cobb and
some of the greats. It was wonderful.
And then into
pastoral, uh, work, into church work, until I landed at
(04:19):
Lindenwood University, where I'm, um, both faculty
and the university chaplain. And it's
been quite the journey.
>> Loren (04:26):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (04:27):
For me, it was.
For me, it was mostly about
constructing rather than
deconstructing.
>> Loren (04:35):
Huh.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (04:36):
This is one of the things about
some of the mainline
protestant denominations. We have
a really hard time articulating
the theology that we've got.
And so when I went to
seminary, when I went on and did my PhD work, particularly when
I found Whitehead. Oh, man. This.
(04:58):
This provides a way to
understand the work that
my church has been doing. And so, for
me, it was a remarkable
epiphany of how to
understand this faith that I was gifted.
And so now I work with a lot of students, and they're
(05:19):
kind of in the deconstruction process, and I've
had to train myself to understand what that process
is, because I never had to do it. I grew up in a church
that was welcoming and wonderful and open and
accepting, and everybody, come, y'all. And God loves
everybody just where you are. And also, there's a
social justice component. And so, like,
(05:39):
it was a wonderful place to grow up. It
was the perfect church experience. My
church family was wonderful. They were so
supportive. And now I'm working
with a lot of students who have been hurt by their churches,
and this is. This is,
like, surprising to me. Not surprising, but it's
not my lived experience. So coming to
(06:01):
conferences like these, like the deconstruction
conferences and homebrew Christianity, where it's one of the things that they focus on a
lot has been real instructive to me
to help work with these people who haven't had the kind of
blessing in their church life that I have.
>> Loren (06:15):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that.
Um, I sort of have to, like, ask, like,
if you have grandkids, like, they're just kind of, like, dead to
rights, right.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (06:27):
Well, I have to say, so my grandpa was, like,
a good, very kind of button down
pastor kind of church guy, and then my dad
was the epitome of the preacher's kid.
>> Loren (06:37):
Right, right. I mean, it's
funny just to think about. I imagine you have some
familiarity with, like, family systems theory.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (06:45):
Right, right, yeah.
Yep. It's hard to get away from trends play out.
And as it turns out, I've got and preachers kids.
>> Loren (06:54):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (06:55):
God bless them, they'll be fine. And they
both tell me, though, that they're not having children. So
maybe it ends with me.
>> Loren (07:03):
Maybe. Well,
I don't know if I can say this, but for the sake of
the ministry, hopefully
someone has a kid there, here and there.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (07:14):
I might just run into one eventually, and we'll work our family
systems magic and get another preacher.
>> Loren (07:19):
Yeah. Yeah. All right. Uh, any spiritual
practices you want to share that are meaningful for you?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (07:25):
So, part of
my ministry at my university,
Lyndenwood University in St. Charles, Missouri,
is as the university chaplain.
And so I take time every
morning to do a
little yoga, uh,
make sure that I sit quietly, do my kind of five
(07:48):
minutes of mindfulness. But all of that
feels like a prelude to the time I get to spend in
prayer. And there's a
lot to pray for at a university.
So the higher education in
general is in a real area, uh, of transition
right now. We're in a real time of change. So I spend a lot
(08:08):
of time praying for my university and for higher education
in general and for the administration at my university.
And then, though, like, down
to the struggles that my students have.
And as we all know, loneliness
is epidemic among young
people right now, and mental health issues are
(08:28):
epidemic among this demographic,
like the twenties or so.
>> Loren (08:33):
Right.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (08:34):
And I see a lot of it, a lot of young people
come into my office and, like, I need to
understand why this is happening or what's
going on, or I can't do my
church anymore because of all of the abuse.
And, uh, does God still love me?
Is Jesus still walking with me
(08:54):
on top of all of the other kind of abuse and mental health
issues that I'm not a trained counselor, so those aren't things
that I can deal with, but I can talk people through
why God loves you, even if you're not going to the
church. That was abusive. And I spend a lot of
time in prayer in the mornings on
them. Right. And as a process
theologian, I've been asked,
(09:17):
well, if, you know, if God isn't in
control, then why would you pray?
Well, if God was in control, why would
you pray?
>> Loren (09:26):
M that's a good answer.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (09:27):
Um, so instead,
I believe in a, uh, God that is
relational with me, that doesn't have
the future all planned out and set in stone
in a world where we really do have free will and God is
responsive to the events that occur
as we move through the world. And so why wouldn't
I pray? Hey, God, this person is
(09:50):
struggling and they need a lot of help. And let
me, let me add to the goodness of
existence by lifting them up,
by adding
to this next layer of
becoming of the world, the goodness that I intend for
them, that I hope for them, that I hope that you hope for
them my prayer, that
(10:12):
they might be able to grasp the next best possible,
that their families, that their churches, that their
education might be open to those
possibilities for the next. For the next. For the
next. Because each one of these students is amazing
and has so much to offer the world. So, yeah,
I spend a lot of time in prayer, and at least from my
(10:32):
perspective, prayer from an, uh, open,
relational and process perspective is much more
effective than throwing
our, uh, impotent
prayers at a God who's already got all of the power
into everything decided.
>> Loren (10:48):
Wow. Yeah, that's powerful. Thanks
for sharing that. That's powerful.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (10:54):
And it helps get through the day.
Right. It helps me orient toward
the good that I know can come out
of the work that I do. Because
sometimes, sometimes, and just like
everyone, sometimes I think what is
going on, right? And that prayer
(11:14):
time, that time and quiet meditation, uh,
and moving meditation helps
to restore. Right? Like it
sounds so cliche, it helps to restore my soul.
I'm ready for the next day. I highly recommend it, by
the way. The yoga and meditation and spending
some time in prayer, it orients us towards
(11:35):
the world in a different, more hopeful way.
>> Loren (11:36):
I think that's good stuff. I'm
reminded, I don't know if you can think of the, uh.
I can't remember who this quote comes from. Perhaps
this comes to mind for you, but there's this
statement by some guy, somebody in
the past, who's something like, I'm so busy today, I
need to commit so many hours of prayer
(11:57):
who was that? I can't remember. But, uh,
isn't that like, isn't that like the.
The pull, the struggle we have, right. So
much in our modern society that it's like, we
have so much to do that we just
gotta. We gotta start cranking. We gotta start
hustling.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (12:15):
Right? We gotta sit down with the tasks in my task list.
Right. This morning when I let my phone start giving me
notifications, I think more than 100 popped up.
>> Loren (12:24):
Oh, my goodness.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (12:27):
And it would be. It's real tempting. It's
real easy to want to just start trying to
knock things off the task list.
>> Loren (12:34):
I love marking off the checklist.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (12:36):
Sometimes I'll write things down on my task list just to check it
off.
>> Loren (12:39):
Me too.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (12:41):
Oh, it feels so good. Yes.
And I've learned over trial and
error that I am actually more effective if I
take those moments to make sure that my body and mind
are ready for a day.
>> Loren (12:55):
Yeah, I'm looking over your shoulder here.
Psalm 46 ten in the classroom. Recording,
recording at be still and know that I am God.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (13:03):
Oh, how interesting that we ended up with that one.
>> Loren (13:06):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (13:07):
When I got my call, I was
young, I was 14. And
I started asking the
pastors in my life. So my grandfather and my youth pastor
and the main pastor at my
church, how did you know? How did
you know that you got your call? And
(13:27):
my youth pastor looked at me. She,
ah, answered me. She told me about her story.
And I kept pressing. I'm like, but, yeah,
but how did you know what was the sign? What was the
thing? And she's like, nicole, if you're looking for a,
uh, burning bush, you're looking for the wrong
thing, right? M. That's not how the
(13:47):
discernment process goes. And she quoted
that. And it has been one
of the scriptures that has followed me my entire life.
Right? Because God, I didn't.
In my call story, I didn't have this mountaintop experience.
I didn't get a burning bush. I didn't get the, like,
um, massive moment of clarity where
(14:08):
you turn from one way of living that was drawing you away from
God and repent and turn the other way. I didn't have that
experience. I had the small, still voice of God,
the gentle voice of God who would not let me
go. Right? I got to college. I knew I had a call. I got to
college. I'm like, oh, uh, maybe my gifts would better serve
the world if I were a doctor or a lawyer. I can work for justice
(14:29):
or I can work for people's health. And
there was a God who constantly called
me back, right. This love that would not let me
go. No, I have something for you to do,
Nicole. And
come this way. Right, Laura, lead this way.
Right. Follow. And it was always
(14:49):
God's still small voice. God has never been a bully with
me, which is one of the reasons why
process, open relational process theology
resonated with me. So when I finally got into my
college class, I took a class, uh, on Christianity
and in my undergraduate
coursework, and we went
(15:09):
through the ancients, and we went through the
medievals, and we went through some of the modern theologians,
and this professor ended the class
with a little unit on whitehead.
And he was so in
over his head, like, he had.
He did his best. God bless.
>> Loren (15:28):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (15:30):
But I was hooked. Was
hooked. And I went to the library at
my Truman, uh, state university in northeastern
Missouri, and I found the unedited
version of process and reality and
process. And the edited version of process and reality is
ridiculous. The unedited version was nearly
impossible. I think I only stood, like, understood,
(15:52):
like, three quarters of what I read. But I got
that book open, and I sat down in the stacks, and they,
like, they shut the library lights off. They're
like, you gotta leave. Like, oh, can we check it out before I
go?
>> Loren (16:05):
Right?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (16:05):
And I was hooked, and it was
this, right? God. For open
relational and process theologians, God isn't a
bully, right? God is
a dance partner.
God doesn't coerce us into doing things.
God invites us. It's that still,
small voice that said to me,
(16:27):
nicole, I got a mission for you. Right. It's that
still, small voice, I think, that leads students
into my office. Hey, I'm struggling with this.
Can we talk this out, then? That's the way God has
always worked for me. And I understand that it doesn't work that
way for everyone, because there
might be people in situations where you need kind of a
(16:48):
kick in the pants, and
that lore might come harder. Right? It
might come louder. Um. But even
in those moments, I don't think that there's any
coercion that we can still say, I'm
going to continue down a path that's destructive. Cause I'm not
ready yet. Right. And
God remains with us. God remains faithful to
(17:10):
us, even when we make choices
that are destructive both to us and the people
around us and our world.
God sees it and laments it
and invites us to better.
>> Loren (17:23):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (17:24):
And as Marjorie Suhaki likes to say,
sometimes the best possible for a particular
situation still is pretty bad, right?
If you've been walking down a bad path for a really
long time. Sometimes the only
thing that you can do is not the worst thing.
Yeah, but then if we make that right
choice, right. If we make that one right choice, that still is pretty
(17:46):
crummy. Then we've opened up a whole new set of
possibilities for making better choices. And so God
walks with us and calls us onto those better
choices for each moment so that hopefully, with
God's help, with God's companionship,
like, oh, uh, like the silly footprints poem. Right.
>> Loren (18:03):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (18:03):
We have a companion who walks through it with us and
calls us to better and better and better
if we're willing to answer that call. And that's
grace, right? That's grace for every moment, every
moment of our life, we get that grace.
>> Loren (18:18):
Well, this is great.
Um, I want to ask, and I'm kind
of just throwing off our script here, so hopefully you're
okay with that. I know you weren't too locked in. Anyway,
this will kind of lead into what I was hoping to talk about somewhat
too. But I'm thinking about, you
know, you said you wrestled with a
(18:40):
choice. Do I pursue being a
doctor or a lawyer? Can I
do more good in the world? Yet
you clearly have chosen to
do ministry, at least as
I see it. We live in a context,
societally, where
whether God exists or not is, uh,
(19:02):
you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but less and less
people live as if even God exists.
And even for those, I think, who do, there's this
idea that, like, why would I want
to waste my time in church
when I could do more good in the world by
being a doctor or a
(19:23):
lawyer? So hopefully I'm not
misinterpreting here, but I'm certainly of the opinion that,
like, ministry really matters.
So I guess maybe a two part
question here. Like, do you see this kind of dynamic? And
b, if someone comes to you and it's like,
hey, I feel it's called to ministry, but it feels
like a, uh, waste of my time or not
(19:45):
effective use of, because, again, the hustle. Right.
We gotta be the most productive and
efficient.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (19:52):
Right. Right. Okay,
so, yes. So society
is moving away from.
It's moving away from the way church
was done up until about the
1980s. Right. The 1970s and 1980s is when
church membership started to fall off in the United States.
>> Loren (20:13):
Right.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (20:14):
And it seems to me that that's
right about the time that hustle culture became a
real thing. And so get up on Sunday
mornings and take your kids to sports, because sports
make us. They indoctrinate the values
into children that we want in american
society.
>> Loren (20:32):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (20:33):
Right. Teamwork and go get it ness
and competitiveness. Okay.
>> Loren (20:39):
And it's fine. I love sports.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (20:41):
Right. Sports are kind of great, and all of those things are
really decent things to do, like teamwork. And there's nothing wrong with
competitiveness so long as we're
what's, uh, good at being competitive. Right. There's
kind of good competitive and bad competitive, right?
Uh, yeah.
>> Loren (20:57):
I mean, sportsmanship, I would say, matters.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (20:59):
Yes, it does. So all of these things are very
good civil values.
These are civil values, yes. And
they're not necessarily christian values, even
though in the United States today, there are lots of people who
would like to tell you that those civil values are actually christian
values. Right. Um, and once again, there's nothing wrong with
(21:19):
those civil values. Right. They're great values, and yes, we need to inculcate
them. But this move
toward the go getter kind. Ah.
Of capitalist, whereas we're moving into kind of
this late capitalist stage, maybe,
hopefully
drew people away from the
(21:40):
community. The responsibility,
the
contemplative
aspects, the slowness, and
also the humility of what it means to
be in church life together. And those
are also very good values.
(22:01):
And I think as a culture, as we've moved away
from this, we've lost some of
those good things. And church and
churches, in response, have,
um, upped their game. Right. So we've
moved from church
2.0, which I like to call kind of mainstream
(22:22):
protestant denominational worship. Right. Church 2.0, to
church 3.0, uh, which is
very interactive and very
entertaining.
>> Loren (22:30):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (22:31):
And once again, nothing wrong with church
3.0. I think it was a good response to
what we saw happening in the eighties and seventies, eighties and nineties
in the United States. And also, though, it
didn't really stem the tide,
and there's a real thirst for
connection to God in the world, even among those
people who are like, I'll never, ever go to a church,
(22:54):
even those who are, like, not hurt by a church. I understand
those who deconstruct, and they're not going back, and
I understand why. But lots of people weren't raised in the church
and have no desire, because it doesn't.
It's not even church 3.0 isn't
scratching that spiritual need for a lot of people.
So there's still a call in the world.
(23:14):
One of the things that we try to do, like, um, in
the preaching book that I just edited in conferences like
this, is how to help
scratch that spiritual itch that's
probably not the way I want to say it,
huh? Fill that spiritual
need. Not everyone,
apparently, but lots and lots of people in the United
(23:35):
States are desiring of the
community, of the spiritual
connection. And right now, churches in
America don't seem to have the formula
to reach that. And I think
this is one of the reasons why the loneliness pandemic has
gotten so bad. Yeah, church
used to be the place where everybody went, right?
(23:58):
And even if you weren't particularly religious,
you still went to church. Cause that's where your
community was, right. M and we've lost a lot of
community. I think that church can
still fill that spot. Cause it's
not just community and human companionship. Cause we've
also seen things like membership, um,
in like bowling leagues and Boy.
>> Loren (24:21):
Scouts, VFW,
you know, all these, all of that.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (24:25):
So as we've gotten more individualistic, we've lost
our sense of community. It m might be one of the reasons why we're
dealing with so much division in the United States right now.
>> Loren (24:34):
Yeah, I believe it.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (24:35):
And also then we lost that spiritual
connection to each other and to
God. And I think we're in the process
of figuring out
how to rebuild those
connections. And for some people, like,
they're still doing church 1.0, they're still doing church
2.0, they're still doing church 3.0. And that's really
(24:57):
great. We've got this whole group of people
now that I come into contact with a lot in my
work who are deconstructing,
um, or who were never members of a church and are really suspicious
of it. And this is the group that I'm interested in, because
the people who are the nuns, the n o n e
s, continue to grow, but
(25:17):
still want spiritual connection. And so this is the
group that I'm interested in. And I think
that open relational and process theology
can help make sense of the kind of spiritual
connection that people are looking for. Because sometimes the
christian God gets real zeus.
And that is easy to reject. Uh, when we
(25:38):
start to talk about ORPt
open relational and process theology, we
start to get into imagining a divine that
is with this world, that doesn't leave us
alone, that helps make sense of
evolution and science,
uh, our psychology. Right. All
(25:59):
of this makes sense when we start to look at this metaphysic of the
way the world works. And I think that it has a lot to
offer to those people who are seeking.
>> Loren (26:07):
Let's talk about, or let me say
real quickly, I was just listening to a, ah, podcast. Simon
Sinek, um, really
powerful, talking about loneliness and he was
saying he's of the opinion,
um, the increase in loneliness has led to the
suspicion of others. When we're less
connected, we're more suspicious. And then
(26:30):
his guest, who was a rabbi, shared this really,
really powerful story of,
uh, ritual. It's hard to
describe grieving someone,
uh, through a faith community. Really powerful. Uh, I
forget what the title was, but if you look up Simon, uh,
Sinek's optimist something optimist
(26:50):
podcast, I don't remember what it is.
Um, came to mind. I'm also thinking
about, I'll use your
word, the spiritual need, the
spiritual hunger in people. Um, I had
a conversation recently with a guy named Dave Bowden,
who's in the UK, comes
from more evangelical tradition. But this is very much
(27:12):
the kind of work he's doing
there in a context that's more post
christian than we are here in the States.
About, um, trying to
imprecisely your words here, that, scratch that itch.
I know it's imprecise, but I like the metaphor, the
image, uh, because I guess I believe there's
(27:34):
an itch. Um, and I think
we talk about, to me, I'm a kid
of the nineties, my real faith formation,
where it was all about, um, who's the
Mc? I'm thinking of? It's not Macarthur, it's, uh.
Gosh, I can't remember his name. Evidence that
McDowell of, uh, Josh McDowell. Evidence
(27:54):
that demands a verdict. It was very much, and again,
I grew up in a fundamentalist
evangelical space. I don't know if it was like this in
mainline context, but very much about apologetics.
And to me, it seems like today,
if you were to go with someone who came in who's
a nun, and be like, here's all.
Let's lay out all the facts, they'd just be like, shut
(28:16):
up. I don't know.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (28:18):
Absolutely. So,
as a member of the United Church of Christ, which is
a very open and affirming, accepting
denomination, um, I get,
I am lucky to have conversations with people who
believe that I don't follow Jesus,
and they're going to bring me into the fold and
(28:41):
save me, and I appreciate their hearts. I do.
Uh, and the kind of apologetics that they
use is, uh, unconvincing to me.
>> Loren (28:50):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (28:51):
And it is to
the nuns as well, of course.
And I see it. I teach a class on
science and religion, m and people
who are believers who come in leave
believers, and people
who are not believers, when they come into this
class, leave non believers.
(29:15):
So apologetics, it only works.
I think on people who are predisposed
or who are looking for community.
>> Loren (29:23):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (29:24):
And we do have.
>> Loren (29:25):
I mean, I think that's. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I feel like that's exactly what we're
seeing right now with, like, similar to this. Like,
uh. I don't even know what the right word is, but, like, these m the
young men who are just going, like, hard, right?
Like, they're not. Are they really, like, going, like,
hard right. After all these. I don't even know the names because, like,
they're so much more convincing or they can find
(29:45):
community.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (29:46):
Right. And I see this at my university
as well. So lots of. Lots of seekers or
non believers are very lonely. They're
freshman year on campus. And as much as my
university attempts to draw people in to, like,
come and have community, and here's all of these activities and here's
things to do. There are always people who are
(30:06):
resistant to joining group
things, uh, for whatever reasons they've
got. And
the christian groups
will find one on one work.
Right. So one of
the members of one of our christian groups on campus will see someone
alone in the cafeteria and will make a point
(30:29):
to sit down with them. Yeah.
>> Loren (30:30):
M. Right.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (30:31):
So they do this thing that is really good
and important, which is make a personal connection with
someone who is very lonely and not really in
a position to make connections in big group
settings. And this is very, very attractive
to a lot of freshmen who get
into these groups and then, by their senior
(30:51):
year, end up in my office because they
didn't know what they were signing up for. They
didn't understand that this invitation to join
a group meant that they had to cede all
control.
>> Loren (31:05):
Right.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (31:07):
This group would try to tell them who they could date
and how, uh, they could spend their money and
where they could live and if their parents weren't
on board, that they needed to cut off contact with their parents.
And so these kinds of groups
fill, uh, a need.
>> Loren (31:23):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (31:23):
That's an important need that needs to be filled.
And also, many, many
stay, and many come to me and like,
okay, I found Jesus, and we had this
really great time, and now it's gotten a little
bit ugly. What do we do? Right. How do I do
this? Okay. Right. We can move forward from
(31:44):
there. There are christians
out there who are faithfully following Jesus, who
also don't need to see your tax returns.
Did that help? Did I answer that question?
>> Loren (31:55):
I'm, uh, thinking, too. I'm thinking about
the challenge of identity. Uh, as I've
read it, identity is a real
struggle. And as
I understand, there's this real pressure.
Thank goodness. I
joke when my wife and I were
(32:15):
dating many years ago, this
was. I didn't have a cell phone. She had a
cell phone very shortly. I couldn't imagine, like,
even just navigating a relationship via
text. Um, but certainly
what I'm reading and hearing more and more is that since the
advent of social media, there's this need to construct
an identity and just how exhausting, um,
(32:38):
that can be. And I'm thinking some of what
I'm hearing from different voices is
one of the gifts of Christianity can be,
is that, you know, you know, in
Christ, like, that's your identity.
I'm not articulating it super well, but
there's this grace to not have to be a
(32:59):
thing.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (33:00):
Right? Like, in Christ,
you are a son or a
daughter of God. Right. Uh, you're a brother or
sister to Christ, and therefore a brother and
sister to all other Christians,
or at least the Christians who agree with
you. Exactly.
>> Loren (33:18):
Uh,
I like to joke that my
theological eyes are often bigger than my stomach
because I tend to have a big
tent and then some folks
don't always have such a big tent, and sometimes
I have to haunt me. But, yeah, I hear you.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (33:39):
It does, and it does. And
so finding Jesus when you come to
college does really help
people find an identity, find a
place to fit in, find a set
of ethics and rules to help
guide a life as they
move into true adulthood. And
(34:02):
it can be positive and powerful. It really
can be. And it really does help combat the
loneliness piece that a lot of people feel.
Mhm. And I think that that is one
of the strengths. Like, this is one of the ways
that Christianity helps
to. And, uh, religion in general. Right. I'm an
academic. I'm an academic. And so it's not
(34:24):
just Christianity that does this. Right. All religions
do this. So we see it in Islam and we see it in
Hinduism. Here's our group
identity, and you're welcome to join it.
Right. And so this is a function of
religion. And all religions do this,
Christianity does it. And then also on top
(34:44):
of the identity piece, these students
do develop a relationship with the divine.
They do get that spiritual
need fed and filled.
And I think it does help. We did a
recent study on,
um, like, success in
(35:04):
college based on your
attendance at a christian group.
And it turns out if you are
a member of one of the christian groups on campus,
you are more likely to
succeed and succeed. Well, Dodge.
Right. And that might, I mean,
(35:25):
for some people, like, yay, Jesus intervened on your
behalf and made your grades good. I don't think that's it.
I think when people get their spiritual needs
met and when they get
their community needs met, then they're more likely
to succeed in their academics, as well.
And it's part of getting your mature
(35:45):
life in order. Right. To get these needs met,
to have a community and identity and a relationship with the
divine.
>> Loren (35:52):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (35:53):
And it's something that Christianity in general needs to
get better at. Right. How do we
reach this group of nuns in a way that is non
coercive and welcoming to all
people? Because that group, you
know, 30% of people under the age of 20 right
now identify. I'm gonna start to get into places where
people are gonna start to be uncomfortable, and I'm sorry about this,
(36:16):
but 30% of people under the age of 20
identify as queer, as
LGBTQIA. Right. All of that.
And those people are not really welcomed by most of
the christian groups on my campus.
>> Loren (36:28):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (36:29):
So then they come and feel. Because
it's only about 30%. Right. They come and feel like part
of the minority, and they're not welcomed as they
are by most of the christian groups.
And we have all, uh. And are struggling to find their
identity. And this is where Christianity
is failing God's people. There's
(36:49):
a whole group of people here that need to know
the love of God and the non coercive love of
God.
>> Loren (36:56):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (36:56):
Right. The love of God that accepts you exactly as
you are and calls us in each moment to be the
best version of ourselves that we can be.
It's what I hope to do in my ministry. Like, the
people who,
uh, don't identify
as queer, LgBtqia,
uh, they find that they can find their place
(37:18):
really easy in the Christian groups. So it's this underserved
population that I try to focus on in my. In my
ministry at Lindenwood.
>> Loren (37:25):
Yeah. Life. Well, our time is
moving quickly, and I want to get two more questions here
before we move on to the closing questions.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (37:33):
Sure.
>> Loren (37:34):
What. What do you think? Uh,
how am I trying to say this? What would you want
churches to know about young
adults?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (37:44):
Okay, so churches need to know that young
adults are lonely.
>> Loren (37:49):
Okay.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (37:49):
M. And they would rather be lonely than do it the
way the boomers do it. And the next thing
they need to know is that
even those young adults who are part
of a christian or muslim or jewish or hindu
group that don't accept the queer
community, um, those people
(38:09):
are hungry for a church that
love them. And
it might be time for us to consider
just loving all of God's
creation, we risk
losing the good news
if we refuse to love like Jesus loved
(38:32):
other.
>> Loren (38:32):
Half of the question then is what do you think
young adults could learn
from churches?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (38:40):
Loving a church is a lot like loving
a marriage partner.
When you get married and you say yes to this person now
you also are saying yes. I think Tim Burnett
said this last night and it's so true.
You're saying yes to that person and
the 30, 40, 50 versions of
(39:01):
them that they'll be, ah, over the next
however, years. And you're promising in
this moment that even if you don't like that version, you're
gonna love them anyway.
Churches are a lot like that.
>> Loren (39:17):
That's a good analogy.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (39:19):
I might not like a move or a
decision or a choice in the church that I'm at. And
maybe it might be better for us to
stick around and learn how to function
properly, to deal with conflict, to
help move a church in a direction that we think is faithful
to God instead of just like. One of the
problems that kind of the mega churches, evangelical churches are
(39:42):
having is that they don't. Lots of
people hop megachurch to megachurch.
>> Loren (39:48):
The back door is wide open.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (39:50):
Right. And one of the things
that young people can do is find a community that they
think is a good fit for them and then
stay there. Right. Jesus tells
us that where your
treasure is, there your heart will be.
Not where your heart is, there your treasure will
(40:10):
be. Right. And so
there's a distinction there. Where you put your time and
treasure, where you put your effort, that's where your heart
will be.
>> Loren (40:19):
Mhm.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (40:20):
So choose that thing that matters
to you and then your
heart will go there. Right. If this is where we put
our time and our attention and our focus, then
that will help us connect with God and
connect with community, which if you're listening
to what Jesus has to say, are really the same
(40:40):
thing. Right. The greatest command is love the
Lord your God. And the second, in the King
James version, it says, the second is like, unto it.
>> Loren (40:49):
Hey, I got my king James Bible right here, so
amen to that.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (40:53):
The second is like, unto it. Well, what does that mean?
It means the same as.
>> Loren (40:57):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (40:58):
So to love the Lord your God is to
love your neighbor as yourself. So get
some neighbors and love them. And that way you'll
look, it's good stuff here.
>> Loren (41:09):
It's good stuff here. You ready for some
closing questions?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (41:13):
Yeah, let's do it.
>> Loren (41:14):
I feel like we should just keep going, but,
um. It's good stuff. It's good
stuff okay, so if you're pope for a day,
what do you want to do with that day? Any big, any big
calls you want to make?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (41:28):
Yeah, I'm not so authoritarian,
so maybe that's the thing I would do, right. If I were pope, I'd be like,
hey, let's make this way less authoritarian
and let's make it much more communal.
>> Loren (41:42):
Yeah, that's fair. Abolishing the papacy
is a common answer, but it sounds like you're looking for
a more nuanced approach.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (41:49):
Right? Much more nuanced. There's no need to abolish it. There's
definitely a place for leadership. Right. That's why some people
are called to ministry. Everybody gets certain
gifts. So, uh, there's
a whole lot of power, though, kind of
concentrated, uh, in one little place.
And so maybe a little more power sharing would be a good idea. A
(42:11):
little less top down.
>> Loren (42:12):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (42:14):
Uh, include people of all bodies
in the power structures.
Mhm. Uh, if we're all made in God's
image, then all of us get
to take, uh, leadership positions if we're
called to that. What
would I do? I would.
If I were pope for a day. I try to
(42:36):
also make it so that none of this could be undone.
>> Loren (42:39):
Okay. Yeah. It's gonna be a lot of, like,
legal, legal work there.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (42:43):
Right. I need to prepare for my pope for the day, so I could just get
into office on the first day and start making all sorts of undoable
changes.
>> Loren (42:51):
Um, a theologian or historical christian
figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (42:58):
Okay. If I was gonna have a party,
I would want, like, David
Hume.
>> Loren (43:04):
Oh, this is even a better question. Like,
who do you want to invite to your, like, I'm thinking, like, did you watch
the good place?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (43:12):
Yes.
>> Loren (43:13):
I feel like this is what's coming to mind for me. Like the, uh. Do
you remember, like, I think it's season four when they get
to the good place and it's this really
pathetic party with the drink
dispenser. That's what I'm thinking of.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (43:27):
Right. Who would I want? I would want the
philosophers and the theologians, uh, and the
church leaders from the past who were good at
a party.
>> Loren (43:38):
Okay.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (43:39):
Uh, and I think that Jesus would be involved in
that. Right? Like, I don't think that
Jesus shied away from a party. He was. He
brought the wine, right. Or, uh, he brought the good wine.
>> Loren (43:50):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (43:51):
So, okay. Right. You come on,
Jesus, and let's have the good wine, and then you can tell us all
about how we ought to be.
>> Loren (43:58):
Yeah. I feel like Jesus would just be, like,
telling just like, these kick ass stories,
right? That would just be like. You'd be, like,
laughing, you'd be crying. Then you'd be like, oh,
man, right? It's got minutes or two,
right?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (44:13):
Like, something got healed in me at this party over this
wine. Right. I think that would be. I would actually love for David
Hume and Jesus to meet. I think that would be very helpful for
David Hume.
>> Loren (44:25):
What do you think history will remember from our current time and
place?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (44:28):
I know this is.
We are undergoing another massive change.
Although everyone of every generation says that,
right? Unprecedented change. Unprecedented change.
I, um, think what really will be remembered
is the rise of
nationalism, like religious
(44:49):
nationalism. So in the United States, it's christian
nationalism, but in India, it's hindu nationalism. This
is gonna be. This kind of syncretism
is gonna mark a turning point in
not just Christianity, but religion in general. So when we come back and study
it, they're gonna be like, oh, well, here's where nation
states and religion got real blended again.
(45:10):
It's always been. There have always been times, but, uh,
it's going to get real blended right now, I think.
>> Loren (45:16):
What are your hopes for the future of Christianity?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (45:19):
More and better for it, right. That
the good news. I know that was such a long pause. The
good news continues to
grow. Right. And there is good
news out there.
>> Loren (45:32):
Yeah. Yeah. That's good stuff.
Uh, Reverend Doctor Nicole
Torbitsky, thank you so much for your
time. Where, uh, can people connect with you?
Get the book.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (45:44):
You can find our book,
uh,
um, preaching the power of the uncontrolling God. And you
can find it on Amazon. So just Amazon.
And you can even google my name, which is no one will
be able to spell. So how about Jeff Wells?
>> Loren (46:02):
Jeff Wells. That's clean, simple
Jeff Wells.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (46:06):
He was our main editor, or Tom Ord. And
that'll, uh, draw up these books and preaching the
uncontrolling love of God. And you can find it there, and you
can find me. I'm, um, uh, not
much of a social media user. It's kind of bad for my soul. But, uh,
you can find me on Instagram and Twitter just under my name. Nicole
Torbitsky.
>> Loren (46:25):
All right, well, this has been a great conversation. Really appreciate the
time. Uh, always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
God's peace be with you.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (46:32):
And also with you. Thank you.
>> Loren (46:34):
Thank you.
>> Paul (46:36):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
To learn more about Lauren or the podcast,
visit future dash Christian.com.
One more thing before you go. Do us a favor
and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're
feeling especially generous, leave a review.
It really helps us get the word out to more people. About the
(46:57):
podcast. The
Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
arts and resonate media. Our episodes were
mixed by Danny Burton and the production support is
provided by Paul Romaglevitt. Thanks
and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your source
for insights and ideas on how to lead your church
into the 21st century.
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
(00:27):
Now here's your host, Loren Richmond, Junior.
>> Loren (00:33):
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today
we're welcoming Reverend doctor Nicole Torbitsky.
Nicole is associate professor of religion and University
chaplain at Lindenwood University in St. Charles,
Missouri. Her current research investigates
whiteheadian notions related to christian atonement
theory. She serves as the editor for the center
for Process and Faith's lectionary commentary
(00:56):
series. She also serves as editor for
Lindenwood University's student research journal, the
Confluence. This interview was recorded
in person at the persuade preaching conference at St.
Andrew United Methodist Church. Let's welcome
Nicole to the show.
(01:20):
All right, welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Lauren Richmond,
junior, and I'm, um, pleased to be joined today by
the Reverend doctor Nicole Torbitzky. So
thanks so much for being here.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (01:30):
I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
>> Loren (01:32):
Yeah, we're actually recording in person at, uh,
St. Andrew United Methodist Church in
Highlands Ranch, Colorado, as a part of the
process and preaching conference right now.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (01:43):
Open relational and process preaching conference.
>> Loren (01:45):
Okay. And I guess tomorrow is like a whole new
conference.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (01:50):
Uh, right. Another second conference hosted
by, uh, homebrewed Christianity and Tripp
Fuller, uh, on God after
deconstruction.
>> Loren (01:59):
So a lot going on here, and,
uh, you know, I'm a church nerd, as I.
As I told Nicole. So part of me was just walking
through the space and checking it out this morning. Uh,
but talk about, share, if you would, anything else about
yourself you'd like our listeners to know about you.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (02:14):
Well, recently I put a
book out on preaching and process, um,
with Jeff Wells, Vicki
Randall, and Thomas J. Ord. So we
edited a book with 68
authors who talk about how to
preach from the open, relational and crosses theological
perspective. And we're super excited about it. You can get it
(02:37):
on Amazon and any other bookseller, and I think
we.
>> Loren (02:40):
Just walked by it, right?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (02:41):
We did.
>> Loren (02:42):
I'll say for our listeners, it is probably a couple inches thick. So
you're getting your money's worth with that purchase.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (02:48):
Yeah, I think it's about 500 pages long, and there are
68 authors and 78 separate,
um, submissions. So there's a
lot of good stuff to read if you're a preacher or if you're interested in
exploring the practical applications of open, relational and
process theology.
>> Loren (03:03):
Yeah. So, share, if you would, just kind of your faith journey, what
that's looked like in the past and what that looks like today.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (03:08):
So I was actually really lucky to grow
up United Church of Christ,
and it runs in my family, so we've
had a pastor in my family every other
generation since we came to the United States
back in the 18 hundreds.
>> Loren (03:24):
Your family. Wow.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (03:26):
And when I was 14 and
got my call, and my grandfather, who was a pastor,
was still living, and told him at one
Christmas, and I think I'm gonna. I think
I'm gonna go into the ministry, grandpa. And he
was so delighted. He was
so delighted. And we had a family tradition
(03:46):
of reading the nativity
stories out of Matthew and Luke, and
that year, he gave me the Bible.
>> Loren (03:53):
Wow.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (03:54):
And said, you read it now? And it was
wonderful.
>> Loren (03:58):
Wow.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (03:58):
And from there, it was, uh,
seminary in Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh theological Seminary, and
a PhD in Claremont at Claremont graduate University,
working with Roland Faber and John Cobb and
some of the greats. It was wonderful.
And then into
pastoral, uh, work, into church work, until I landed at
(04:19):
Lindenwood University, where I'm, um, both faculty
and the university chaplain. And it's
been quite the journey.
>> Loren (04:26):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (04:27):
For me, it was.
For me, it was mostly about
constructing rather than
deconstructing.
>> Loren (04:35):
Huh.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (04:36):
This is one of the things about
some of the mainline
protestant denominations. We have
a really hard time articulating
the theology that we've got.
And so when I went to
seminary, when I went on and did my PhD work, particularly when
I found Whitehead. Oh, man. This.
(04:58):
This provides a way to
understand the work that
my church has been doing. And so, for
me, it was a remarkable
epiphany of how to
understand this faith that I was gifted.
And so now I work with a lot of students, and they're
(05:19):
kind of in the deconstruction process, and I've
had to train myself to understand what that process
is, because I never had to do it. I grew up in a church
that was welcoming and wonderful and open and
accepting, and everybody, come, y'all. And God loves
everybody just where you are. And also, there's a
social justice component. And so, like,
(05:39):
it was a wonderful place to grow up. It
was the perfect church experience. My
church family was wonderful. They were so
supportive. And now I'm working
with a lot of students who have been hurt by their churches,
and this is. This is,
like, surprising to me. Not surprising, but it's
not my lived experience. So coming to
(06:01):
conferences like these, like the deconstruction
conferences and homebrew Christianity, where it's one of the things that they focus on a
lot has been real instructive to me
to help work with these people who haven't had the kind of
blessing in their church life that I have.
>> Loren (06:15):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that.
Um, I sort of have to, like, ask, like,
if you have grandkids, like, they're just kind of, like, dead to
rights, right.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (06:27):
Well, I have to say, so my grandpa was, like,
a good, very kind of button down
pastor kind of church guy, and then my dad
was the epitome of the preacher's kid.
>> Loren (06:37):
Right, right. I mean, it's
funny just to think about. I imagine you have some
familiarity with, like, family systems theory.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (06:45):
Right, right, yeah.
Yep. It's hard to get away from trends play out.
And as it turns out, I've got and preachers kids.
>> Loren (06:54):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (06:55):
God bless them, they'll be fine. And they
both tell me, though, that they're not having children. So
maybe it ends with me.
>> Loren (07:03):
Maybe. Well,
I don't know if I can say this, but for the sake of
the ministry, hopefully
someone has a kid there, here and there.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (07:14):
I might just run into one eventually, and we'll work our family
systems magic and get another preacher.
>> Loren (07:19):
Yeah. Yeah. All right. Uh, any spiritual
practices you want to share that are meaningful for you?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (07:25):
So, part of
my ministry at my university,
Lyndenwood University in St. Charles, Missouri,
is as the university chaplain.
And so I take time every
morning to do a
little yoga, uh,
make sure that I sit quietly, do my kind of five
(07:48):
minutes of mindfulness. But all of that
feels like a prelude to the time I get to spend in
prayer. And there's a
lot to pray for at a university.
So the higher education in
general is in a real area, uh, of transition
right now. We're in a real time of change. So I spend a lot
(08:08):
of time praying for my university and for higher education
in general and for the administration at my university.
And then, though, like, down
to the struggles that my students have.
And as we all know, loneliness
is epidemic among young
people right now, and mental health issues are
(08:28):
epidemic among this demographic,
like the twenties or so.
>> Loren (08:33):
Right.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (08:34):
And I see a lot of it, a lot of young people
come into my office and, like, I need to
understand why this is happening or what's
going on, or I can't do my
church anymore because of all of the abuse.
And, uh, does God still love me?
Is Jesus still walking with me
(08:54):
on top of all of the other kind of abuse and mental health
issues that I'm not a trained counselor, so those aren't things
that I can deal with, but I can talk people through
why God loves you, even if you're not going to the
church. That was abusive. And I spend a lot of
time in prayer in the mornings on
them. Right. And as a process
theologian, I've been asked,
(09:17):
well, if, you know, if God isn't in
control, then why would you pray?
Well, if God was in control, why would
you pray?
>> Loren (09:26):
M that's a good answer.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (09:27):
Um, so instead,
I believe in a, uh, God that is
relational with me, that doesn't have
the future all planned out and set in stone
in a world where we really do have free will and God is
responsive to the events that occur
as we move through the world. And so why wouldn't
I pray? Hey, God, this person is
(09:50):
struggling and they need a lot of help. And let
me, let me add to the goodness of
existence by lifting them up,
by adding
to this next layer of
becoming of the world, the goodness that I intend for
them, that I hope for them, that I hope that you hope for
them my prayer, that
(10:12):
they might be able to grasp the next best possible,
that their families, that their churches, that their
education might be open to those
possibilities for the next. For the next. For the
next. Because each one of these students is amazing
and has so much to offer the world. So, yeah,
I spend a lot of time in prayer, and at least from my
(10:32):
perspective, prayer from an, uh, open,
relational and process perspective is much more
effective than throwing
our, uh, impotent
prayers at a God who's already got all of the power
into everything decided.
>> Loren (10:48):
Wow. Yeah, that's powerful. Thanks
for sharing that. That's powerful.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (10:54):
And it helps get through the day.
Right. It helps me orient toward
the good that I know can come out
of the work that I do. Because
sometimes, sometimes, and just like
everyone, sometimes I think what is
going on, right? And that prayer
(11:14):
time, that time and quiet meditation, uh,
and moving meditation helps
to restore. Right? Like it
sounds so cliche, it helps to restore my soul.
I'm ready for the next day. I highly recommend it, by
the way. The yoga and meditation and spending
some time in prayer, it orients us towards
(11:35):
the world in a different, more hopeful way.
>> Loren (11:36):
I think that's good stuff. I'm
reminded, I don't know if you can think of the, uh.
I can't remember who this quote comes from. Perhaps
this comes to mind for you, but there's this
statement by some guy, somebody in
the past, who's something like, I'm so busy today, I
need to commit so many hours of prayer
(11:57):
who was that? I can't remember. But, uh,
isn't that like, isn't that like the.
The pull, the struggle we have, right. So
much in our modern society that it's like, we
have so much to do that we just
gotta. We gotta start cranking. We gotta start
hustling.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (12:15):
Right? We gotta sit down with the tasks in my task list.
Right. This morning when I let my phone start giving me
notifications, I think more than 100 popped up.
>> Loren (12:24):
Oh, my goodness.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (12:27):
And it would be. It's real tempting. It's
real easy to want to just start trying to
knock things off the task list.
>> Loren (12:34):
I love marking off the checklist.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (12:36):
Sometimes I'll write things down on my task list just to check it
off.
>> Loren (12:39):
Me too.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (12:41):
Oh, it feels so good. Yes.
And I've learned over trial and
error that I am actually more effective if I
take those moments to make sure that my body and mind
are ready for a day.
>> Loren (12:55):
Yeah, I'm looking over your shoulder here.
Psalm 46 ten in the classroom. Recording,
recording at be still and know that I am God.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (13:03):
Oh, how interesting that we ended up with that one.
>> Loren (13:06):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (13:07):
When I got my call, I was
young, I was 14. And
I started asking the
pastors in my life. So my grandfather and my youth pastor
and the main pastor at my
church, how did you know? How did
you know that you got your call? And
(13:27):
my youth pastor looked at me. She,
ah, answered me. She told me about her story.
And I kept pressing. I'm like, but, yeah,
but how did you know what was the sign? What was the
thing? And she's like, nicole, if you're looking for a,
uh, burning bush, you're looking for the wrong
thing, right? M. That's not how the
(13:47):
discernment process goes. And she quoted
that. And it has been one
of the scriptures that has followed me my entire life.
Right? Because God, I didn't.
In my call story, I didn't have this mountaintop experience.
I didn't get a burning bush. I didn't get the, like,
um, massive moment of clarity where
(14:08):
you turn from one way of living that was drawing you away from
God and repent and turn the other way. I didn't have that
experience. I had the small, still voice of God,
the gentle voice of God who would not let me
go. Right? I got to college. I knew I had a call. I got to
college. I'm like, oh, uh, maybe my gifts would better serve
the world if I were a doctor or a lawyer. I can work for justice
(14:29):
or I can work for people's health. And
there was a God who constantly called
me back, right. This love that would not let me
go. No, I have something for you to do,
Nicole. And
come this way. Right, Laura, lead this way.
Right. Follow. And it was always
(14:49):
God's still small voice. God has never been a bully with
me, which is one of the reasons why
process, open relational process theology
resonated with me. So when I finally got into my
college class, I took a class, uh, on Christianity
and in my undergraduate
coursework, and we went
(15:09):
through the ancients, and we went through the
medievals, and we went through some of the modern theologians,
and this professor ended the class
with a little unit on whitehead.
And he was so in
over his head, like, he had.
He did his best. God bless.
>> Loren (15:28):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (15:30):
But I was hooked. Was
hooked. And I went to the library at
my Truman, uh, state university in northeastern
Missouri, and I found the unedited
version of process and reality and
process. And the edited version of process and reality is
ridiculous. The unedited version was nearly
impossible. I think I only stood, like, understood,
(15:52):
like, three quarters of what I read. But I got
that book open, and I sat down in the stacks, and they,
like, they shut the library lights off. They're
like, you gotta leave. Like, oh, can we check it out before I
go?
>> Loren (16:05):
Right?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (16:05):
And I was hooked, and it was
this, right? God. For open
relational and process theologians, God isn't a
bully, right? God is
a dance partner.
God doesn't coerce us into doing things.
God invites us. It's that still,
small voice that said to me,
(16:27):
nicole, I got a mission for you. Right. It's that
still, small voice, I think, that leads students
into my office. Hey, I'm struggling with this.
Can we talk this out, then? That's the way God has
always worked for me. And I understand that it doesn't work that
way for everyone, because there
might be people in situations where you need kind of a
(16:48):
kick in the pants, and
that lore might come harder. Right? It
might come louder. Um. But even
in those moments, I don't think that there's any
coercion that we can still say, I'm
going to continue down a path that's destructive. Cause I'm not
ready yet. Right. And
God remains with us. God remains faithful to
(17:10):
us, even when we make choices
that are destructive both to us and the people
around us and our world.
God sees it and laments it
and invites us to better.
>> Loren (17:23):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (17:24):
And as Marjorie Suhaki likes to say,
sometimes the best possible for a particular
situation still is pretty bad, right?
If you've been walking down a bad path for a really
long time. Sometimes the only
thing that you can do is not the worst thing.
Yeah, but then if we make that right
choice, right. If we make that one right choice, that still is pretty
(17:46):
crummy. Then we've opened up a whole new set of
possibilities for making better choices. And so God
walks with us and calls us onto those better
choices for each moment so that hopefully, with
God's help, with God's companionship,
like, oh, uh, like the silly footprints poem. Right.
>> Loren (18:03):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (18:03):
We have a companion who walks through it with us and
calls us to better and better and better
if we're willing to answer that call. And that's
grace, right? That's grace for every moment, every
moment of our life, we get that grace.
>> Loren (18:18):
Well, this is great.
Um, I want to ask, and I'm kind
of just throwing off our script here, so hopefully you're
okay with that. I know you weren't too locked in. Anyway,
this will kind of lead into what I was hoping to talk about somewhat
too. But I'm thinking about, you
know, you said you wrestled with a
(18:40):
choice. Do I pursue being a
doctor or a lawyer? Can I
do more good in the world? Yet
you clearly have chosen to
do ministry, at least as
I see it. We live in a context,
societally, where
whether God exists or not is, uh,
(19:02):
you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but less and less
people live as if even God exists.
And even for those, I think, who do, there's this
idea that, like, why would I want
to waste my time in church
when I could do more good in the world by
being a doctor or a
(19:23):
lawyer? So hopefully I'm not
misinterpreting here, but I'm certainly of the opinion that,
like, ministry really matters.
So I guess maybe a two part
question here. Like, do you see this kind of dynamic? And
b, if someone comes to you and it's like,
hey, I feel it's called to ministry, but it feels
like a, uh, waste of my time or not
(19:45):
effective use of, because, again, the hustle. Right.
We gotta be the most productive and
efficient.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (19:52):
Right. Right. Okay,
so, yes. So society
is moving away from.
It's moving away from the way church
was done up until about the
1980s. Right. The 1970s and 1980s is when
church membership started to fall off in the United States.
>> Loren (20:13):
Right.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (20:14):
And it seems to me that that's
right about the time that hustle culture became a
real thing. And so get up on Sunday
mornings and take your kids to sports, because sports
make us. They indoctrinate the values
into children that we want in american
society.
>> Loren (20:32):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (20:33):
Right. Teamwork and go get it ness
and competitiveness. Okay.
>> Loren (20:39):
And it's fine. I love sports.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (20:41):
Right. Sports are kind of great, and all of those things are
really decent things to do, like teamwork. And there's nothing wrong with
competitiveness so long as we're
what's, uh, good at being competitive. Right. There's
kind of good competitive and bad competitive, right?
Uh, yeah.
>> Loren (20:57):
I mean, sportsmanship, I would say, matters.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (20:59):
Yes, it does. So all of these things are very
good civil values.
These are civil values, yes. And
they're not necessarily christian values, even
though in the United States today, there are lots of people who
would like to tell you that those civil values are actually christian
values. Right. Um, and once again, there's nothing wrong with
(21:19):
those civil values. Right. They're great values, and yes, we need to inculcate
them. But this move
toward the go getter kind. Ah.
Of capitalist, whereas we're moving into kind of
this late capitalist stage, maybe,
hopefully
drew people away from the
(21:40):
community. The responsibility,
the
contemplative
aspects, the slowness, and
also the humility of what it means to
be in church life together. And those
are also very good values.
(22:01):
And I think as a culture, as we've moved away
from this, we've lost some of
those good things. And church and
churches, in response, have,
um, upped their game. Right. So we've
moved from church
2.0, which I like to call kind of mainstream
(22:22):
protestant denominational worship. Right. Church 2.0, to
church 3.0, uh, which is
very interactive and very
entertaining.
>> Loren (22:30):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (22:31):
And once again, nothing wrong with church
3.0. I think it was a good response to
what we saw happening in the eighties and seventies, eighties and nineties
in the United States. And also, though, it
didn't really stem the tide,
and there's a real thirst for
connection to God in the world, even among those
people who are like, I'll never, ever go to a church,
(22:54):
even those who are, like, not hurt by a church. I understand
those who deconstruct, and they're not going back, and
I understand why. But lots of people weren't raised in the church
and have no desire, because it doesn't.
It's not even church 3.0 isn't
scratching that spiritual need for a lot of people.
So there's still a call in the world.
(23:14):
One of the things that we try to do, like, um, in
the preaching book that I just edited in conferences like
this, is how to help
scratch that spiritual itch that's
probably not the way I want to say it,
huh? Fill that spiritual
need. Not everyone,
apparently, but lots and lots of people in the United
(23:35):
States are desiring of the
community, of the spiritual
connection. And right now, churches in
America don't seem to have the formula
to reach that. And I think
this is one of the reasons why the loneliness pandemic has
gotten so bad. Yeah, church
used to be the place where everybody went, right?
(23:58):
And even if you weren't particularly religious,
you still went to church. Cause that's where your
community was, right. M and we've lost a lot of
community. I think that church can
still fill that spot. Cause it's
not just community and human companionship. Cause we've
also seen things like membership, um,
in like bowling leagues and Boy.
>> Loren (24:21):
Scouts, VFW,
you know, all these, all of that.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (24:25):
So as we've gotten more individualistic, we've lost
our sense of community. It m might be one of the reasons why we're
dealing with so much division in the United States right now.
>> Loren (24:34):
Yeah, I believe it.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (24:35):
And also then we lost that spiritual
connection to each other and to
God. And I think we're in the process
of figuring out
how to rebuild those
connections. And for some people, like,
they're still doing church 1.0, they're still doing church
2.0, they're still doing church 3.0. And that's really
(24:57):
great. We've got this whole group of people
now that I come into contact with a lot in my
work who are deconstructing,
um, or who were never members of a church and are really suspicious
of it. And this is the group that I'm interested in, because
the people who are the nuns, the n o n e
s, continue to grow, but
(25:17):
still want spiritual connection. And so this is the
group that I'm interested in. And I think
that open relational and process theology
can help make sense of the kind of spiritual
connection that people are looking for. Because sometimes the
christian God gets real zeus.
And that is easy to reject. Uh, when we
(25:38):
start to talk about ORPt
open relational and process theology, we
start to get into imagining a divine that
is with this world, that doesn't leave us
alone, that helps make sense of
evolution and science,
uh, our psychology. Right. All
(25:59):
of this makes sense when we start to look at this metaphysic of the
way the world works. And I think that it has a lot to
offer to those people who are seeking.
>> Loren (26:07):
Let's talk about, or let me say
real quickly, I was just listening to a, ah, podcast. Simon
Sinek, um, really
powerful, talking about loneliness and he was
saying he's of the opinion,
um, the increase in loneliness has led to the
suspicion of others. When we're less
connected, we're more suspicious. And then
(26:30):
his guest, who was a rabbi, shared this really,
really powerful story of,
uh, ritual. It's hard to
describe grieving someone,
uh, through a faith community. Really powerful. Uh, I
forget what the title was, but if you look up Simon, uh,
Sinek's optimist something optimist
(26:50):
podcast, I don't remember what it is.
Um, came to mind. I'm also thinking
about, I'll use your
word, the spiritual need, the
spiritual hunger in people. Um, I had
a conversation recently with a guy named Dave Bowden,
who's in the UK, comes
from more evangelical tradition. But this is very much
(27:12):
the kind of work he's doing
there in a context that's more post
christian than we are here in the States.
About, um, trying to
imprecisely your words here, that, scratch that itch.
I know it's imprecise, but I like the metaphor, the
image, uh, because I guess I believe there's
(27:34):
an itch. Um, and I think
we talk about, to me, I'm a kid
of the nineties, my real faith formation,
where it was all about, um, who's the
Mc? I'm thinking of? It's not Macarthur, it's, uh.
Gosh, I can't remember his name. Evidence that
McDowell of, uh, Josh McDowell. Evidence
(27:54):
that demands a verdict. It was very much, and again,
I grew up in a fundamentalist
evangelical space. I don't know if it was like this in
mainline context, but very much about apologetics.
And to me, it seems like today,
if you were to go with someone who came in who's
a nun, and be like, here's all.
Let's lay out all the facts, they'd just be like, shut
(28:16):
up. I don't know.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (28:18):
Absolutely. So,
as a member of the United Church of Christ, which is
a very open and affirming, accepting
denomination, um, I get,
I am lucky to have conversations with people who
believe that I don't follow Jesus,
and they're going to bring me into the fold and
(28:41):
save me, and I appreciate their hearts. I do.
Uh, and the kind of apologetics that they
use is, uh, unconvincing to me.
>> Loren (28:50):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (28:51):
And it is to
the nuns as well, of course.
And I see it. I teach a class on
science and religion, m and people
who are believers who come in leave
believers, and people
who are not believers, when they come into this
class, leave non believers.
(29:15):
So apologetics, it only works.
I think on people who are predisposed
or who are looking for community.
>> Loren (29:23):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (29:24):
And we do have.
>> Loren (29:25):
I mean, I think that's. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I feel like that's exactly what we're
seeing right now with, like, similar to this. Like,
uh. I don't even know what the right word is, but, like, these m the
young men who are just going, like, hard, right?
Like, they're not. Are they really, like, going, like,
hard right. After all these. I don't even know the names because, like,
they're so much more convincing or they can find
(29:45):
community.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (29:46):
Right. And I see this at my university
as well. So lots of. Lots of seekers or
non believers are very lonely. They're
freshman year on campus. And as much as my
university attempts to draw people in to, like,
come and have community, and here's all of these activities and here's
things to do. There are always people who are
(30:06):
resistant to joining group
things, uh, for whatever reasons they've
got. And
the christian groups
will find one on one work.
Right. So one of
the members of one of our christian groups on campus will see someone
alone in the cafeteria and will make a point
(30:29):
to sit down with them. Yeah.
>> Loren (30:30):
M. Right.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (30:31):
So they do this thing that is really good
and important, which is make a personal connection with
someone who is very lonely and not really in
a position to make connections in big group
settings. And this is very, very attractive
to a lot of freshmen who get
into these groups and then, by their senior
(30:51):
year, end up in my office because they
didn't know what they were signing up for. They
didn't understand that this invitation to join
a group meant that they had to cede all
control.
>> Loren (31:05):
Right.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (31:07):
This group would try to tell them who they could date
and how, uh, they could spend their money and
where they could live and if their parents weren't
on board, that they needed to cut off contact with their parents.
And so these kinds of groups
fill, uh, a need.
>> Loren (31:23):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (31:23):
That's an important need that needs to be filled.
And also, many, many
stay, and many come to me and like,
okay, I found Jesus, and we had this
really great time, and now it's gotten a little
bit ugly. What do we do? Right. How do I do
this? Okay. Right. We can move forward from
(31:44):
there. There are christians
out there who are faithfully following Jesus, who
also don't need to see your tax returns.
Did that help? Did I answer that question?
>> Loren (31:55):
I'm, uh, thinking, too. I'm thinking about
the challenge of identity. Uh, as I've
read it, identity is a real
struggle. And as
I understand, there's this real pressure.
Thank goodness. I
joke when my wife and I were
(32:15):
dating many years ago, this
was. I didn't have a cell phone. She had a
cell phone very shortly. I couldn't imagine, like,
even just navigating a relationship via
text. Um, but certainly
what I'm reading and hearing more and more is that since the
advent of social media, there's this need to construct
an identity and just how exhausting, um,
(32:38):
that can be. And I'm thinking some of what
I'm hearing from different voices is
one of the gifts of Christianity can be,
is that, you know, you know, in
Christ, like, that's your identity.
I'm not articulating it super well, but
there's this grace to not have to be a
(32:59):
thing.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (33:00):
Right? Like, in Christ,
you are a son or a
daughter of God. Right. Uh, you're a brother or
sister to Christ, and therefore a brother and
sister to all other Christians,
or at least the Christians who agree with
you. Exactly.
>> Loren (33:18):
Uh,
I like to joke that my
theological eyes are often bigger than my stomach
because I tend to have a big
tent and then some folks
don't always have such a big tent, and sometimes
I have to haunt me. But, yeah, I hear you.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (33:39):
It does, and it does. And
so finding Jesus when you come to
college does really help
people find an identity, find a
place to fit in, find a set
of ethics and rules to help
guide a life as they
move into true adulthood. And
(34:02):
it can be positive and powerful. It really
can be. And it really does help combat the
loneliness piece that a lot of people feel.
Mhm. And I think that that is one
of the strengths. Like, this is one of the ways
that Christianity helps
to. And, uh, religion in general. Right. I'm an
academic. I'm an academic. And so it's not
(34:24):
just Christianity that does this. Right. All religions
do this. So we see it in Islam and we see it in
Hinduism. Here's our group
identity, and you're welcome to join it.
Right. And so this is a function of
religion. And all religions do this,
Christianity does it. And then also on top
(34:44):
of the identity piece, these students
do develop a relationship with the divine.
They do get that spiritual
need fed and filled.
And I think it does help. We did a
recent study on,
um, like, success in
(35:04):
college based on your
attendance at a christian group.
And it turns out if you are
a member of one of the christian groups on campus,
you are more likely to
succeed and succeed. Well, Dodge.
Right. And that might, I mean,
(35:25):
for some people, like, yay, Jesus intervened on your
behalf and made your grades good. I don't think that's it.
I think when people get their spiritual needs
met and when they get
their community needs met, then they're more likely
to succeed in their academics, as well.
And it's part of getting your mature
(35:45):
life in order. Right. To get these needs met,
to have a community and identity and a relationship with the
divine.
>> Loren (35:52):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (35:53):
And it's something that Christianity in general needs to
get better at. Right. How do we
reach this group of nuns in a way that is non
coercive and welcoming to all
people? Because that group, you
know, 30% of people under the age of 20 right
now identify. I'm gonna start to get into places where
people are gonna start to be uncomfortable, and I'm sorry about this,
(36:16):
but 30% of people under the age of 20
identify as queer, as
LGBTQIA. Right. All of that.
And those people are not really welcomed by most of
the christian groups on my campus.
>> Loren (36:28):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (36:29):
So then they come and feel. Because
it's only about 30%. Right. They come and feel like part
of the minority, and they're not welcomed as they
are by most of the christian groups.
And we have all, uh. And are struggling to find their
identity. And this is where Christianity
is failing God's people. There's
(36:49):
a whole group of people here that need to know
the love of God and the non coercive love of
God.
>> Loren (36:56):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (36:56):
Right. The love of God that accepts you exactly as
you are and calls us in each moment to be the
best version of ourselves that we can be.
It's what I hope to do in my ministry. Like, the
people who,
uh, don't identify
as queer, LgBtqia,
uh, they find that they can find their place
(37:18):
really easy in the Christian groups. So it's this underserved
population that I try to focus on in my. In my
ministry at Lindenwood.
>> Loren (37:25):
Yeah. Life. Well, our time is
moving quickly, and I want to get two more questions here
before we move on to the closing questions.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (37:33):
Sure.
>> Loren (37:34):
What. What do you think? Uh,
how am I trying to say this? What would you want
churches to know about young
adults?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (37:44):
Okay, so churches need to know that young
adults are lonely.
>> Loren (37:49):
Okay.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (37:49):
M. And they would rather be lonely than do it the
way the boomers do it. And the next thing
they need to know is that
even those young adults who are part
of a christian or muslim or jewish or hindu
group that don't accept the queer
community, um, those people
(38:09):
are hungry for a church that
love them. And
it might be time for us to consider
just loving all of God's
creation, we risk
losing the good news
if we refuse to love like Jesus loved
(38:32):
other.
>> Loren (38:32):
Half of the question then is what do you think
young adults could learn
from churches?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (38:40):
Loving a church is a lot like loving
a marriage partner.
When you get married and you say yes to this person now
you also are saying yes. I think Tim Burnett
said this last night and it's so true.
You're saying yes to that person and
the 30, 40, 50 versions of
(39:01):
them that they'll be, ah, over the next
however, years. And you're promising in
this moment that even if you don't like that version, you're
gonna love them anyway.
Churches are a lot like that.
>> Loren (39:17):
That's a good analogy.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (39:19):
I might not like a move or a
decision or a choice in the church that I'm at. And
maybe it might be better for us to
stick around and learn how to function
properly, to deal with conflict, to
help move a church in a direction that we think is faithful
to God instead of just like. One of the
problems that kind of the mega churches, evangelical churches are
(39:42):
having is that they don't. Lots of
people hop megachurch to megachurch.
>> Loren (39:48):
The back door is wide open.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (39:50):
Right. And one of the things
that young people can do is find a community that they
think is a good fit for them and then
stay there. Right. Jesus tells
us that where your
treasure is, there your heart will be.
Not where your heart is, there your treasure will
(40:10):
be. Right. And so
there's a distinction there. Where you put your time and
treasure, where you put your effort, that's where your heart
will be.
>> Loren (40:19):
Mhm.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (40:20):
So choose that thing that matters
to you and then your
heart will go there. Right. If this is where we put
our time and our attention and our focus, then
that will help us connect with God and
connect with community, which if you're listening
to what Jesus has to say, are really the same
(40:40):
thing. Right. The greatest command is love the
Lord your God. And the second, in the King
James version, it says, the second is like, unto it.
>> Loren (40:49):
Hey, I got my king James Bible right here, so
amen to that.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (40:53):
The second is like, unto it. Well, what does that mean?
It means the same as.
>> Loren (40:57):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (40:58):
So to love the Lord your God is to
love your neighbor as yourself. So get
some neighbors and love them. And that way you'll
look, it's good stuff here.
>> Loren (41:09):
It's good stuff here. You ready for some
closing questions?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (41:13):
Yeah, let's do it.
>> Loren (41:14):
I feel like we should just keep going, but,
um. It's good stuff. It's good
stuff okay, so if you're pope for a day,
what do you want to do with that day? Any big, any big
calls you want to make?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (41:28):
Yeah, I'm not so authoritarian,
so maybe that's the thing I would do, right. If I were pope, I'd be like,
hey, let's make this way less authoritarian
and let's make it much more communal.
>> Loren (41:42):
Yeah, that's fair. Abolishing the papacy
is a common answer, but it sounds like you're looking for
a more nuanced approach.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (41:49):
Right? Much more nuanced. There's no need to abolish it. There's
definitely a place for leadership. Right. That's why some people
are called to ministry. Everybody gets certain
gifts. So, uh, there's
a whole lot of power, though, kind of
concentrated, uh, in one little place.
And so maybe a little more power sharing would be a good idea. A
(42:11):
little less top down.
>> Loren (42:12):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (42:14):
Uh, include people of all bodies
in the power structures.
Mhm. Uh, if we're all made in God's
image, then all of us get
to take, uh, leadership positions if we're
called to that. What
would I do? I would.
If I were pope for a day. I try to
(42:36):
also make it so that none of this could be undone.
>> Loren (42:39):
Okay. Yeah. It's gonna be a lot of, like,
legal, legal work there.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (42:43):
Right. I need to prepare for my pope for the day, so I could just get
into office on the first day and start making all sorts of undoable
changes.
>> Loren (42:51):
Um, a theologian or historical christian
figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (42:58):
Okay. If I was gonna have a party,
I would want, like, David
Hume.
>> Loren (43:04):
Oh, this is even a better question. Like,
who do you want to invite to your, like, I'm thinking, like, did you watch
the good place?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (43:12):
Yes.
>> Loren (43:13):
I feel like this is what's coming to mind for me. Like the, uh. Do
you remember, like, I think it's season four when they get
to the good place and it's this really
pathetic party with the drink
dispenser. That's what I'm thinking of.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (43:27):
Right. Who would I want? I would want the
philosophers and the theologians, uh, and the
church leaders from the past who were good at
a party.
>> Loren (43:38):
Okay.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (43:39):
Uh, and I think that Jesus would be involved in
that. Right? Like, I don't think that
Jesus shied away from a party. He was. He
brought the wine, right. Or, uh, he brought the good wine.
>> Loren (43:50):
Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (43:51):
So, okay. Right. You come on,
Jesus, and let's have the good wine, and then you can tell us all
about how we ought to be.
>> Loren (43:58):
Yeah. I feel like Jesus would just be, like,
telling just like, these kick ass stories,
right? That would just be like. You'd be, like,
laughing, you'd be crying. Then you'd be like, oh,
man, right? It's got minutes or two,
right?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (44:13):
Like, something got healed in me at this party over this
wine. Right. I think that would be. I would actually love for David
Hume and Jesus to meet. I think that would be very helpful for
David Hume.
>> Loren (44:25):
What do you think history will remember from our current time and
place?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (44:28):
I know this is.
We are undergoing another massive change.
Although everyone of every generation says that,
right? Unprecedented change. Unprecedented change.
I, um, think what really will be remembered
is the rise of
nationalism, like religious
(44:49):
nationalism. So in the United States, it's christian
nationalism, but in India, it's hindu nationalism. This
is gonna be. This kind of syncretism
is gonna mark a turning point in
not just Christianity, but religion in general. So when we come back and study
it, they're gonna be like, oh, well, here's where nation
states and religion got real blended again.
(45:10):
It's always been. There have always been times, but, uh,
it's going to get real blended right now, I think.
>> Loren (45:16):
What are your hopes for the future of Christianity?
>> Nicole Torbitsky (45:19):
More and better for it, right. That
the good news. I know that was such a long pause. The
good news continues to
grow. Right. And there is good
news out there.
>> Loren (45:32):
Yeah. Yeah. That's good stuff.
Uh, Reverend Doctor Nicole
Torbitsky, thank you so much for your
time. Where, uh, can people connect with you?
Get the book.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (45:44):
You can find our book,
uh,
um, preaching the power of the uncontrolling God. And you
can find it on Amazon. So just Amazon.
And you can even google my name, which is no one will
be able to spell. So how about Jeff Wells?
>> Loren (46:02):
Jeff Wells. That's clean, simple
Jeff Wells.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (46:06):
He was our main editor, or Tom Ord. And
that'll, uh, draw up these books and preaching the
uncontrolling love of God. And you can find it there, and you
can find me. I'm, um, uh, not
much of a social media user. It's kind of bad for my soul. But, uh,
you can find me on Instagram and Twitter just under my name. Nicole
Torbitsky.
>> Loren (46:25):
All right, well, this has been a great conversation. Really appreciate the
time. Uh, always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
God's peace be with you.
>> Nicole Torbitsky (46:32):
And also with you. Thank you.
>> Loren (46:34):
Thank you.
>> Paul (46:36):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
To learn more about Lauren or the podcast,
visit future dash Christian.com.
One more thing before you go. Do us a favor
and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're
feeling especially generous, leave a review.
It really helps us get the word out to more people. About the
(46:57):
podcast. The
Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
arts and resonate media. Our episodes were
mixed by Danny Burton and the production support is
provided by Paul Romaglevitt. Thanks
and go in peace.
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