In this episode, Loren and Martha review the highlights of the season and discuss three broad themes: pastoral health, individualization versus connection, and leading change. They play clips from interviews with Kinsie Tate, Jonathan Foster, Ted Smith, Tessa Pinkstaff, Doug Powe, Scott Thumma and more to explore these themes. They discuss the challenges clergy face in dealing with their own issues while ministering to others, the need for support and community, and the tension between individualism and connection in the church. They also touch on the impact of live streaming and online ministry on the church community. The conversation explores the themes of consumerism, leading change, and the Messiah complex in church leadership. It emphasizes the need to resist the temptation to view churches as products and pastors as content creators. The dangers of quick fixes and the importance of discernment and listening are discussed. The conversation also touches on the interconnectedness of different topics in Christian leadership and teases upcoming conversations on the importance of the small and local in the church, flourishing mainline churches, clergy burnout and wellness, and more.
Episodes Highlighted:
How to Lead Faithful Innovation
New Models of Clergy Credentialing
Presenting Sponsor:
Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world.
Supporting Sponsors:
I Help Pastors Get Jobs: Use code 'futurechristian'
Torn Curtain Arts is a non-profit ministry that works with worship leaders, creatives, and churches to help avoid burnout, love their work, and realize their full creative potential.
Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Guest Host / Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Executive Producer
Danny Burton - Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:05):
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church into the 21st century.
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
(00:27):
Now, here's your host, Loren Richmond Junior.
>> Loren (00:32):
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Loren Richmond
Junior, and today I'm pleased to be joined by
my guest host, co host Martha Tatarnic. So
thank you so much for being here. Welcome.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:43):
Thanks, Loren. It's great to be here. All season
long, I listen to these conversations that you're having
on future Christian, and I just want to jump in
and, you know, continue the conversation. So
this is hopefully our listeners feel that way, too, and
this is our opportunity to do that. Keep the conversation
rolling.
>> Loren (01:02):
Yeah. Well, we have a special episode,
an exciting episode planned here. We're going to try something
new, and I think it'll be a great for a
conversation for our listeners to kind of get a review of what
the season was. And then here's some
highlights. So we're going to play some clips from
episodes and then kind of just share about
our thoughts and, you know, especially
(01:23):
Martha's going to share. She was not the one primary in the
driver's seat for most of these. Share some thoughts and
responses and just kind of review and overview
here. And, uh, as I'm talking, my dog is like,
shoving her head in my lap. One,
uh, such is the life of recording at home. So there's kind
of three broad points here from my season.
(01:45):
And I think, really, this is. Tends to be,
uh, what a lot of my focused conversations
are. And I think, martha, you tend to have a lot here
of overlap here, too. But, uh, three broad points we'll be
talking about today is pastoral health,
individualization versus connection, and then
leading change. So we're going to start off
(02:05):
with an interview I did at,
um, the reminder renew conference at
my seminary, Phillips seminary in Tulsa, Oklahoma, back
in January. And this is with Reverend Kenzie
Tate. She's a licensed counselor and
has a new program called Restore Clergy, where she's
working especially with clergy, to help clergy do
better. So she's talking here just about, uh, some of
(02:27):
the stuff that clergy have to deal with and how it can
affect, uh, their
ministry. So here we go. Let
me, let, uh, me get it going.
>> Kinsie Tate (02:38):
And especially if you're in a place of burnout, it's like that's what you're
living in. And so you can feel
hypocritical you can feel like, how do
I talk about a loving God when it's like, what am
this? This sucks.
>> Loren (02:50):
Yeah.
>> Kinsie Tate (02:51):
Like, I don't. I mean, this person in the pew
reminds me of my dad, who used to yell at me, and I
am all kinds of triggered, and I have no interest in being
compassionate to them. Like, that's. That is
fundamentally a human thing response.
Um, and I think what's hard for clergy is
we are expected to transcend that and to be able
to
(03:13):
speak of God's loving kindness. And it's like, I'm not
feeling it at all, and it's really hard to speak
about it.
>> Loren (03:20):
So I especially want to hear from you,
Martha, on this, because I know you've been in a position where
you've worked with a lot of younger leaders, and
you've. You've been in positions because you
didn't officially become, like, a middle judgment leader, but you were up
for such a role. Right.
So I just want to hear your thoughts on how,
like, clergy, their own stuff, can
(03:43):
often be a, uh, challenge in ministry.
>> Martha Tatarnic (03:47):
Yeah, I mean, I listened to this clip, and I just
think I can't
imagine that the, uh,
relatability isn't felt, like, right
across the north american church, like, no
matter what kind of congregation you're
serving in, because it's such a
theme in the conversations that we have on
(04:09):
future Christian. It's such a theme across
the conversations that I
have with colleagues. Um, it
is so easy to
get into this job because you
care about healing,
but, like, we
(04:31):
do it as wounded healers, right? Like,
we do it as people who
bring our own needs and
baggage. And, um,
we're negotiating a lot of
really challenging,
um, aspects of the landscape that are not
(04:51):
unrelated to the other categories that
we shape our conversations into around
navigating change, um,
you know, how we cope
in an increasingly secular world.
Um, so I think it's so
easy for, uh, if we
(05:11):
don't kind of have those support systems in
place and those honest conversations taking
place, then it is so
easy to just have all of
our baggage drive the bus, you know?
>> Loren (05:25):
Yeah. Uh, I like the way you said that. I
mean, I don't like it, but I like it. That's a good way of saying it. Let
her drag our baggage drive the bus.
What's the guy like? Yeah, go ahead.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:35):
We're gonna have the baggage, right? We just don't want it to be
in charge. Right.
>> Loren (05:44):
Oh, man. Yeah. What? So, like, a word?
What is a word of advice? Maybe that's been helpful
for you. Or you've given pastors when
thinking about your own stuff.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:55):
Well, I think the thing that I keep coming
back to, and I think is very much
my motivation for being part of this
podcast, is that I think we just
have to open up the conversation and
stop acting as if we have to
figure this out alone. Yeah, I've
done a few, like, speaking engagements lately, and I
(06:17):
have said to groups of clergy, like,
the problem with clergy burnout is not going to be solved
by getting a hobby and taking your day off.
Like, we need to have a
broader sense of how, like,
we're working collectively
to, you know, address
(06:38):
systemic change, um,
and to minimize the degree to which people feel
like it's all on their shoulders.
So, like, I
think the message of this podcast is, like, it's not all
on your shoulders. Like, we have a lot of collective wisdom,
and we need to be continuing
(06:59):
to bring that to the fore and
draw from that.
>> Loren (07:02):
Well, yeah. Yeah, that's good. So,
again, that's episode. I meant to get back and
pull the episode numbers. This is early on in season 15. I
can't remember this specific episode, but Kinsey
Tate. Look for that past episode. Next
one I'm going to play here is just a couple episodes ago with
Jonathan Foster. Jonathan, uh, Foster is a
former Nazarene pastor who's
(07:25):
actually, as I understand it, kicked out
of the denomination, uh, for his
inclusive views on LGBTQ folks.
So the interesting one of the things we talked about
here amongst some new movements
he's helping lead for clergy is
just this dynamic of what happens
is clergy can so often be the
(07:48):
primary caregiver in a community, and
especially with our employment being kind of that community that
we can often find ourselves without a home
or a place for receiving care ourselves.
Let's, uh, listen to this club here.
>> Ted Smith (08:02):
We're caregivers. And then
to be pushed out, you know,
kicked out in my case, officially and lots of other places
unofficially, it is a. It's a mind
trip. We're also a lot.
Lots of us are. Kind of like, when you're clergy,
you play, like, a meaning making role in
your community. So when bad things happen, you
(08:25):
help people make meaning.
>> Loren (08:26):
Right?
>> Ted Smith (08:26):
But what's crazy is when bad
things happen, like, if it's bad enough, like, uh, for
example, in my situation, my entire meaning making
system, you know, just kind of fell
apart right now, I was trying to create meaning in the
middle of chaos, right? And the poor people who had
to come to my church, I mean, I say poor people,
some of them were really, really great. And uh,
(08:49):
learned a lot. Um, that's a whole interesting
dynamic, too. And I think a lot of meaning making
clergy types, counselor chaplain types are in
that position, their lives personally.
>> Loren (09:02):
So, for added context here, I think. I
can't speak for certain here, but I know this to be true.
He lost his daughter tragically ten years ago,
so I think that's part of what he's speaking about. But again,
when you're the primary caregiver, to use that
language, it can be real tough. And,
Martha, um, I don't know about you, uh, how have you,
(09:24):
when you're leading in ministry,
what has been, like, your experience
when your family, personally, whatever, is
experiencing great tragedy? Like, I've
had times where I felt like I've been supported very well by a
congregation, other times not.
>> Martha Tatarnic (09:42):
Yeah, I mean, I've been now in
my congregation for ten years, and,
um, our family has
had a lot of ups and downs in those ten years, and I
give thanks to God that the church
has really been the church for me
in the best possible ways. I
(10:03):
realize that's not everybody's story,
um, but. But it is
mine. And I, you know, I count that
as one of the tremendous blessings
of my ministry. I mean, it also
helps that I'm in a congregation
with more than one clergy person, so
(10:23):
there's is more of a sharing
of the load. Um, I think that
it can sometimes be a lot harder for
clergy who are in
congregations where,
um, you know, they feel for one
reason or another that it does all rest on
them. Um, I found
(10:45):
this whole episode to be
extremely compelling and
heartbreaking, um, because,
again, like, relatability that I do
have lots of friends and colleagues who
feel sort of discarded
by the church, by the institutional
church. And what a tremendous, uh,
(11:08):
thing he's doing in creating this
open table network where there's
kind of this safety net for.
For m. Making sure that
there is church, for people who are leading the
church and who sometimes,
um, have the war
(11:29):
wounds, uh, to go along
with navigating change
and managing people's anxiety
and being the ones to make meaning
when everything falls apart.
>> Loren (11:43):
Let me ask you this, too, and I don't
know about the judicatory structure
of Anglicanism or
Episcopalianism in the states, for
instance, but, like, I know in my denomination, the
christian church decides Christ. And I think
there's, like, I'm thinking of, like, the UCC.
Other mainline denominations have similar
(12:06):
judicatory structures. Like, but especially in
my context, where it's like there is a, uh,
middle judiciary leader, and sometimes,
depending on the region, there's more or less.
But the person who a pastor might look
to be like their primary support is
also in some ways, their boss.
(12:26):
And again, depending on,
um, regional
autonomy and what have you, structure that
can be more or less official. But
how. How have you seen that navigated in the challenges
of such.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:43):
Yeah, I. I mean, all of those things
kind of get looped into the mix,
right? Because, uh, in
the anglican church,
uh, ah, like, my boss is my
bishop, um, but
also the bishop is supposed to be the pastor to the
pastor. So there is that inherent
(13:05):
conflict. And,
um, you know, there are kind
of a variety of ways in which the
church tries to navigate that. But,
um,
again, there's lots of people who,
um, sort of end up in
the crossfires of that
(13:27):
conflict. I'm not specifically referring
to my diocese. I'm just saying, like,
that can be a thing, right. Uh, and
I'm sure you see it in your denomination as
well, that you can't
necessarily say that
you're in need or you're in trouble,
(13:48):
uh, to your boss,
or maybe you feel you can't.
>> Loren (13:53):
Right? Yeah, uh, I'd have a
whole lot to say there, but thankfully, we don't have the time.
>> Martha Tatarnic (14:01):
Okay. Maybe, uh, an episode for another
day.
>> Loren (14:04):
Yeah, maybe an episode for another day. So one of
the other trends or themes of that episode
was of Jonathan Foster was, again, like this.
This new kind of credentialing,
um, ministry, I don't know what
organization, institution for clergy. So I
think it really. And one of the things I asked him about was this kind of,
(14:24):
like, this move societally, we are
towards, like, affinity groups, um, people
who really agree with us and separating from those who
don't. And that gets into another,
broader theme from this season, which is, I'm titling
individualization versus connection. And
so I want to play. I have a couple clips here from Ted
Smith. Um, so I want to play
(14:47):
this first one. I think this one is kind of shorter, but let's, uh,
listen in here.
>> Ted Smith (14:53):
This individualization that we have, it carves people out
of communities. It leaves them on their own
without any kind of story to orient their lives, and
then it charges them with building, all on their own,
an authentic self. Well, I wonder
why anxiety is so widespread. Like, that's
just. It's a terrible kind of condition
(15:13):
that a lot of people are in right now. Right?
And I think if what theological
education is designed to do is to
say, hey, you need. We're going to give you professional credentials to
go lead these crumbling voluntary associations. Well, people
aren't interested in that, like, just like what you're saying.
>> Loren (15:31):
Right.
>> Ted Smith (15:31):
But what they. But if theological education
says, hey, I
see this enormous challenge
that the world has given you, that you have to put a life
before God together and you have to figure out
all you know what and there's actually learning
through the centuries that can help you do that. Um,
(15:52):
well, that's a different purpose for theological education.
>> Loren (15:56):
So obviously, um, a
lot in that episode. I do recommend that
episode. Recommend his book, too.
>> Martha Tatarnic (16:04):
I really recommend that episode. It was excellent.
>> Loren (16:06):
Yeah, I'm looking at episode 172 for
context here. Um,
but one of the things he references, I'd said
prior to that clip, this thing
that I think a lot of younger clergy are
just, we're not willing to hold up an institution and basically
be crushed by the institution, but
(16:27):
then be like that. Individualization, I think there is this kind
of societal push to just be
this unique individual self, and that
gets exhausting. Um,
so talk about, I mean,
this dynamic, especially for churches
and seminaries, but in our context,
(16:47):
we primarily deal with churches, is like,
how does a church, like, support the individual but also, like,
not perpetuate this message? Like, you need, like, your
whole identity and purpose needs to be in, like, forming
your unique self identity. Like, you can. You
can be okay. Like, being part of
the body of Christ. Uh, I don't know if that makes sense, but.
>> Martha Tatarnic (17:08):
Yeah, well, it totally doesn't. You know, I don't
know who this is ascribed to, but it really
comes back to, uh, the,
like, are we as a church giving good
advice or are we giving good news?
Because I think it's, like, so easy
to slip into,
um, having people show up and
(17:30):
be like, okay, well, you've got to
be on board with social justice and you've got to give and you've got
to serve and you've got to do this and you've got to do that. And,
like, if we don't, then the world's going to fall apart. And,
like, all of those things might be
true and might be, like,
important components to discipleship,
but
(17:53):
we're there primarily to proclaim
the nearness of the
kingdom of God. Like, we're there to proclaim
like, it's already happening. Like, God is
right here and, like,
transforming the world and recreating the world in
our midst. And, like, um.
And God's at work in you, too. And like,
(18:15):
that's, like,
that's the.
The message that I
think our world is desperate to hear. Like, you're right.
Maybe our world is not desperate to hold up crumbling
institutions, but our world is
desperate to come back
(18:36):
to the relationship for which they're
created.
>> Loren (18:41):
I'll, uh, give a shout out here to
my, uh, fellow doc, pastor, and
podcaster, and technically a producer here.
Dennis Sanders has an episode on his
podcast, church in Maine, with an interview with Anthony Robinson,
the UCC pastor. And I can't remember
if they reference it in this podcast
(19:01):
or in one of the blogs that
Dennis shared in the show. Notes from that spot of the
conversation. But Anthony Robinson says
something about, like,
many times folks are coming to church with, like, a 30
pound bag and they're
being, like, handed another 30 pound bag and be
(19:22):
like, hey, go out and, like, live the good news.
>> Martha Tatarnic (19:26):
Yeah.
>> Loren (19:27):
You know, like, they're coming way down with, like, 30 pounds, and then,
like, we have them another 30 pound bag
of m. You know, things that are true. Like,
obviously, like, there are a lot of problems in this world that
I think we need to address and
talk about, whether it be racism or.
Or, um, LGBT
or the violence in the Middle
(19:50):
east. Like, these are all important issues, but, like, how do we frame
that in a way where people are
experiencing life and good news?
Right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (20:00):
Yeah. Ah. Like, grace and
transformation and hope and,
like. And a lifting of burdens.
Like, this is a place where you can come and,
like, we can gather in prayer for
the troubled places, and
collectively, we can discern our
response. And, um.
(20:23):
Yeah, like, we're not just. We're not just
lonely people trying to
navigate a really rough
world.
>> Loren (20:32):
Yeah. Let me play one more clip here, just from Ted
Smith. This is a short one.
Um, it kind of fits on
this trend of, again, individualization. This is
him m talking about, this movement
towards expressive or affinity group, so to
speak, in denominational life.
>> Ted Smith (20:53):
Um, but the challenge now is with these new, more expressive
denominations, it's harder
for them to want the other ones to continue to exist.
They would like for them just to disappear and to find any kind
of common cause, uh, starts to feel
really, really problematic.
>> Loren (21:10):
So, short clip there, obviously. But
I can't remember if that's what we're talking about. What we're talking about
exactly. But certainly what comes to mind hearing that is
this recent GMC,
UMC, uh, division that's happened,
you know, globally, the United Methodist Church
and the global Methodist church. And again, I'll give
a shout to my. To Dennis Sanders here.
(21:33):
He talks about in
the past, there was this
willingness to kind of say, like, if, for instance,
he exemplifies, like, a church that might have gone
through, uh, a tense vote about
whether to become, in our context, open, affirming,
inclusive of lgbt persons. And often
the language was like, we've got some healing to do after that
(21:55):
vote would happen. Now, it seems like. And I think this is what
Ted is alluding to, is like, there's this, like,
hey, you know, you're the people who voted against us.
We're leaving you behind, and we hope you
fail. And I don't want to speak too strongly here, but
it does seem like there is this idea that,
like,
from the. And again, I want to speak
(22:18):
firmly that I fully support. And I'm
grateful that folks who are LGBTQ, uh,
identifying, like, they get to live into their full
giftings that God has given them. But,
uh, also, I'm with
Ted here, assuming I'm interpreting him correctly,
what do we do with this? Like, this splintering, where it's just
(22:39):
almost like we want the other side to fail, if that
makes sense.
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:45):
Yeah, I mean, we've certainly
seen that splintering in
any number of our mainline
denominations, uh, over the
past 2030
years.
Um,
I don't know what the answer is,
(23:05):
because it feels like
in order to
embrace the church
that I believe God is calling us to
be, like, we do have to
take, uh, uh, stance on these things, and
it's hard to see in
(23:28):
how we do that without
there being a vote that ends
up with. Now, I know in our indigenous
circles or indigenous anglican
circles, there's a much different
way of coming to decision making.
Um, I think
that there's something to pay attention to there in
(23:50):
terms of, like,
maybe bringing it to a vote on the floor of
synod is
not the way forward.
Um, but, yeah,
I don't. Like. What do you think? What do you think
we do other than
(24:11):
what the alternative is not to take a
stand? Right.
>> Loren (24:15):
I think this is where I'm going to lean on Dennis. Uh,
what I've read from Dennis Sanders here and what I've heard from him, m. Is just
this. I think it has to be like,
because I would agree with you, I think there are times where
you have to say, hey, this is what I believe.
Um, so
I think that to use the family systems term,
(24:36):
self differentiation is important. But
again, this is where I want to lean into family systems
theory. There has to be a balance of, uh,
emotional connection and self
differentiation.
I've had Jack Chitama in the past, and he says something like, I think,
like, you know, going fully
after self differentiation is kind of like a narcissistic
(24:58):
behavior, and then obviously, like, you know, just completely
caving in to, you know,
emotional connection at all times, you know, that's not a
healthy, uh, object either. So
to go back to what Dennis Sinner says is like
seeking healing, um, and
that's far easier said than done. So I want to acknowledge
(25:18):
that. Um, but I just wonder, like,
how different things would be and maybe they
wouldn't be. Um,
but is it possible to go into
such divisive trends
with an attitude toward healing or seeking
healing and, uh, striving to
(25:40):
maintain? This is something that Jonathan and
I talked about in that episode with Jonathan and Foster this
tension between two things of self
differentiation and emotional connection,
trying to live in that tension, that balance.
>> Martha Tatarnic (25:55):
Yeah. And I mean,
at the risk of sounding trite,
I would hope that ultimately
being able to trust in the reconciling power of
God does allow us to have
really challenging discussions that
feel like,
(26:17):
are wounding.
Um, but
that there
you look at a lot of the things that christians have fought
about over the
centuries, and, um,
they, they do come to feel like,
(26:39):
like small potatoes.
There is a healing, uh, that does
take place over the course of time that I have
to believe God's hand is in.
>> Loren (26:51):
Yeah, that's good. I like that, that's hopeful. I appreciate
that you bringing that perspective. Let's move on
here. Since we're still
great clips here, I got to share. Um, so I want to set,
uh, early on in January. Again, this was actually recorded
prior to, but, uh, um, doctor Scott Thomas
spoke at the remind and renew conference at Phillips
(27:11):
Seminary. So I kind of spoke to him about his
work and he shared about
just kind of the challenges. This is more,
practically speaking, individualism versus connection,
how to connect with virtual audiences and bring them into the
wider life of the church.
>> Ted Smith (27:26):
Here,
they're willing to allow for talking, head
spectators participation,
but that's not a robust congregational
life. Uh, so I
think where congregations, and this includes the
megachurches as well,
our challenge now is how
(27:49):
do we deliver all those other aspects
of congregational life to a virtual
audience so that it's a robust
expression of Christianity and community
and not just, you know, I'm
watching televangelists, you
know, who are less good
televangelists.
>> Loren (28:09):
Right. So this is, uh, episode
160, I think. And this really connects with
your conversation with Michael Graham, which was
158, I believe, because I remember you had
a very similar conversation with Michael Graham, where he
said, like, hey, church should be getting away from
live streaming because it detracts from the
gathered community in person.
(28:32):
Obviously, there's going to be a lot of churches are going to choose to
stick with live streaming. Um, but
what do you think about that dynamic? Because, again, there is this kind of,
like, there's a safe kind of
aloof. That's not the right word, aloofness. But there's
this ability, uh, to not
fully engage or connect, I guess, when you're watching.
(28:53):
I'd love to do this, like, in person with
you, Martha. And I found that I've
been able to do more and more interviews in person and how much
more I appreciate doing those
interviews in person where I can. So you're living
this out, like, right now, obviously, as, uh, a local
parish pastor, and you're talking to other pastors about
(29:13):
this. What do you think about this dynamic of trying to get people
moved into physical community?
>> Martha Tatarnic (29:20):
Well, I tell you, I think about it a lot, because,
like, I am very compelled
by. By what these people are
saying. Um, you know, Ryan Panzer has a
lot to say about the holy and the hybrid.
Like, and, um. I know we're
gonna talk about Jake, him,
(29:41):
his name. Um, like,
yeah. There is an
incarnational, embodied aspect
to our faith that can't be short
changed. And at the same time, like,
live streaming, online ministry
is so baked into the life of our
church anyway, um, and has been
(30:03):
from way before the pandemic. So, like,
I just can't, um. I can't
imagine, like,
ejecting it from the life of our community because it,
uh, is experienced as a lifeline for so many
people who can't come to church or who are
isolated for one reason or another. Is it
(30:25):
also a way in which people kind of
bop around in church shop rather than become part
of the community? It is.
Um, so. But at the same
time, I'm always surprised by
the. When I connect
with people who only connect online,
(30:45):
I'm surprised by their experience of it
and then how that kind of feeds their
embodied living. So
I. I guess I
ultimately trust in
the power of the Holy Spirit to do something
with our circumstances that are sometimes
(31:06):
less than ideal. And I think that we have to be
taking seriously that continual
calling to the life of community,
um, rather than
consumerism. Like, I think we have to be clear about that. But
for me and our community,
anyway, it is here to stay.
>> Loren (31:26):
Well, let's jump right into that J. Kim
club you referenced. You use the word consumerism.
He talks about the dangers of seeing church as a product. So let's
listen to that real quick.
>> Jay Kim (31:37):
What we are unintentionally doing
is teaching people and telling
people, hey, you know what the church is. The church
is just a christian product to be
consumed. It's just good christian
content to be consumed. And listen, I am not
against good christian content. This podcast is
(31:57):
good christian content.
>> Loren (31:59):
I paid you to say that there.
>> Jay Kim (32:01):
So I'm not against that. But you
and I both would agree this podcast is not the
church. This podcast is not. Now, you and
I, as brothers in the family of God,
we make up a part of the church, global,
you know, universal. But the
podcast itself is not the church.
>> Loren (32:20):
So some almost hot takes there, right? And that's episode
162 there. But
yes, you were just talking about
consumerism, and
Jay Kim talks, right, about
this tendency, and I think we do it as pastors, is to try to
create a good product.
>> Martha Tatarnic (32:39):
Well, that's exactly what I wanted to say,
is, like, this leads me right back to
where we started in this podcast around clergy
health.
>> Loren (32:49):
Good point.
>> Martha Tatarnic (32:49):
I think that, uh, we are
absolutely, like,
we are formed as pastors to
be content creators. We're formed as pastors to
be entrepreneurs in some way, to
kind of be competitors
for increasingly scarce resources, which are the
people who are interested in organized religion. Right?
(33:12):
Like, and
so, like, I, uh, think what Jay
Kim is saying absolutely speaks
to the heart of, like,
what we need to keep coming back to
as christians in today's
society. We need to resist,
(33:33):
um, that message that we're
entrepreneurs competing for scarce
resources. We need to resist the idea
that we're content, uh, creators
producing a great christian product,
um, because
the temptations are
everywhere to buy into that
(33:55):
idea. And, like, the rewards for
being a successful Christmas tree
product feel pretty interesting.
>> Loren (34:02):
Uh, yeah, they do.
Well, I'm thinking back to something you said just
moments ago about, you know, trusting God to bring
reconciliation similarly. Right. So much of this
work, and I'll give a shout out
here to my favorite Andrew root, who writes a
lot about this, too, is just trusting
(34:24):
God. Um, so thanks for. Thank
you just for mentioning that again. It's so
easy to get into this. Like, what do I have to do to fix it?
Right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (34:34):
Yeah. What do I have to do? Yeah.
Honestly, like, almost every clip that we've listened to so
far today makes me think of something Andrew Root has said.
Uh, because, like, it's.
I think about that all the time. Like, we're focused on the wrong
problem. We're focused on trying to get people to come
to church, and we should be focused on how we
(34:56):
communicate the living God to a world that
has been taught to be individual, secular
people.
>> Loren (35:02):
I have, for listeners, I think
that's back in season 14, my last episode with Andrew Ruby, you can
check that out. Um, let's shift here, because you use the
word fix, and I'm thinking about. So much
of this involves leading change. So much of
this work involves leading change in our churches. And
this was from. Oh, I forgot to look it up.
Um, Doug Poe.
(35:25):
It's right before the Ted Smith, uh,
episode. So this is a conversation with Doug Poe, who co
wrote sustaining while disrupting, which is, again, a
book I highly recommend. Let's see if I can find it here.
But he talks about the dangers of a quick fix. And let's
listen in here.
>> Doug Powe (35:42):
These are not quick fixes.
And that's the piece that I'm trying to get to.
You're not going to wake up tomorrow and
say, um, um, this
is. Now I'm putting aside. I'm going to do this. I mean, these
things take place over a
long period of time where people say,
(36:02):
you know what? I do see
this differently and realize
that this probably was not as
critical as we thought it was before.
Um, so going
to your question, like I said, I don't
think we should undermine anyone's convictions, but I do
think that over time, many of these
(36:25):
things do change for individuals. I
mean, you have individuals today who.
>> Loren (36:31):
I cut that off there a little short. But the context of the
conversation is, he's talking about the section in their book,
which, uh, is about, um, change. And he
uses the example of Peter and
Cornelius and Peter literally setting
aside some convictions, you know, again, I don't
eat whatever. I don't remember. Right.
But, you know, I don't eat,
(36:53):
um, certain things.
Uh, but I think the thing we.
And maybe I should say me, because I know I'm terrible at this,
is this idea. Like,
I know there needs to be change
and that sometimes people need to set things aside,
but I'm like, I want to happen right away
(37:16):
and expecting that
quick fix. Um, and I know part of that's
cultural. In our current cultural
context, I know part of that is just frankly, like,
realistically, like, right when we see, like, the
financials going down and decline,
declining attendance, we think, like, something needs to happen immediately.
But what do you think? What if. What have
(37:38):
been your experience?
>> Martha Tatarnic (37:41):
Well, I think that it's hard to be a
couple of decades into ministry
and believe in quick fixes
anymore. Like, I think.
>> Loren (37:52):
Is that like a young clergy from.
>> Martha Tatarnic (37:55):
Yeah, like, I.
I think it's just like,
uh, an institution wanting to survive
problem. Because, like, we do,
we do keep getting, like, the magic
bullet answers. Like, they keep
being floated across our
(38:16):
desks, right? Like, we gather for,
like, professional development,
and it's like, okay, here's the,
here's the way to do it. Like, you just need
x, y, and z, and it's all going to be all right. You
just need, like, this package. You
just need this language. You just need this kind of worship. You
(38:37):
just need, um. And
none of it really seems to be
particularly moving the dial in
if we're looking at the dial being
reversing.
>> Loren (38:52):
Um.
>> Martha Tatarnic (38:54):
Decline of religion, like, of
how many people want to be part of institutional
religion. Um, so
I think the antidote to
quick fixes is
to be really clear
about discernment
(39:14):
and, like, where
God is leading us in this time for
these people.
>> Loren (39:22):
Boy, I had to write that down, that an institution
wanted to survive problem, because that's good.
That's good. And, um, boy, is it. Is that
truth. Holy smokes.
>> Martha Tatarnic (39:32):
It's true. It's true. And I get
it. I love this
church. We both do, right? That's why we're doing
this. Like, we. We love the church.
Yeah, yeah.
>> Loren (39:44):
Let's play here. Um, this
comes from Tessa Pinkstaff, who was a co author
on the book. Or is it
leading? Um, I'm trying to find the book title. I
can't find it.
>> Martha Tatarnic (39:56):
It's just out this week.
>> Loren (39:58):
It's just before, uh, will be the Brian McLaren
episode. So. And then. So it's two episodes back from this.
>> Martha Tatarnic (40:04):
How to lead faithful innovation.
>> Loren (40:06):
Yeah, or the book is leading faithful innovation. Thank you. That
reminds.
>> Martha Tatarnic (40:10):
Yeah.
>> Loren (40:10):
Um, but she talks about,
I asked her the question, like, how do you. There are gonna be times where
folks are just not gonna play ball, to use the
sports metaphor. And how do you deal with
folks who are just. Just convinced that
their job is to not move, to not
play along, to just be, uh, a stick in the mud? So
(40:31):
let me play that conversation. Uh.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (40:35):
Yeah, we allude to this a little bit
in the book, and it was part of the process that we had when we
were working with the congregations. But some of what we
proposed was finding the core leaders
that are in your congregation who are ready for this
kind of work. We had guiding teams
that. That the congregations assembled. And that was,
(40:56):
it was sort of a ripple effect. It starts with the core group that's
ready. And then as that work is
flourishing, as the word gets out, as people start talking about
this sort of has a grassroots ripple where other people
see, oh, there's something happening here. The movement of the
spirit is going on here. People are excited. Change is taking
place, and it's in some ways. That's the basics of
(41:16):
discipleship. People see that something interesting is happening in
this pocket of the church, and others want to get involved, and it
just grows from there. There will be people. I want
to acknowledge that, and we acknowledge this in the book. There will be people
for whom this journey is too difficult. And. And
there's sort of a blessing of, we see you. We
know that this isn't what you need. We're going to keep moving.
(41:36):
We still care about you. It's an important thing to do, but it
is. You have to acknowledge that not everyone's going
to be able to do this, and God will take care of the people that
we have to sort of leave by the wayside as we keep
moving forward.
>> Loren (41:49):
So that seems pretty
strong. Right. And I don't think
she means that negatively, leaving by the wayside.
But what has been your experience? What have
you. What have you advised pastors when
clearly there's. Sometimes there's people in a congregation
who just are not willing to grow and change and
(42:09):
respond to the spirit's promptings?
>> Martha Tatarnic (42:13):
Yeah. I think that there were kind of two key
things for me when I first came to the church
I'm currently serving, and I was
a 35 year old woman. I was
the first female rector, like, the
first lead priest that they had had that was a
woman, and everybody felt like
(42:33):
there's too much changing all at once. There was a lot of
pushback, and there were kind of two things that happened that
were extremely helpful. The one was, um, um,
you know, somebody just saying basically what Tessa said,
like, menace. Like, put most of your
energy toward the people who.
Who want to get on board with this. And lo and behold, there
(42:54):
are lots of people who want to get on board with this, and
so really, like, nurture their faith and,
like, build them up. And it's so
easy, you know, as a teacher, to
put all of your energy into
managing the kids who are a problem, and. And the kids
who are, like, there to learn get nothing,
right. So, like, so direct
(43:16):
directing of energy. I totally get what Tess is
saying. But then the other piece
I was going to visit, this elderly woman in the
congregation, and her son, God
bless him, reached out to me before I went and said,
look, before you go to see my mom, I'm just going to give you a
piece of advice. Like, she doesn't like
(43:37):
you. Like, she. She
thinks that women shouldn't be priests, and, like, she thinks that
you're changing too many things, he said, like, you're gonna
be tempted to try to talk her out of how she
feels, but just listen to her. Like,
don't try to. Don't try to convince her otherwise. Like,
just say, yeah, I really hear you, and, like,
(43:57):
like, validate. Right? Um, and
therapy language. Validate. I ended up
having, like, the best relationship with this woman,
and if he hadn't have emailed me, I would have gone
and try to, like. Because in my mind, it's just
like, clear in my mind what we need to do and why this
is, like, the right way forward. And if she can
see things as clearly as I see them, of course she's going to
(44:20):
get on board. Well, she wasn't going to get on board because
I'm convincing, but she actually did get
on board because I listened to her.
>> Loren (44:28):
Well, there's a lesson there.
>> Martha Tatarnic (44:30):
It was huge. It was really huge.
Yeah.
>> Loren (44:33):
I'm thinking again about, um, I'm trying to
write this down. She got on board because you
listened. Um, I'm
thinking again about my guy, Jack Tatama, who I love to listen
to, talks about family systems theory. He tells a story about
when he was at a church. Uh,
he brought a change to their Christmas Eve service,
(44:54):
and he kind of put it out there.
We're going to do something different for Christmas Eve this year.
People threw a fit, one woman in particular, through a
fit. So he went over there, rather than
trying to defend what he was going to do, he just listened to her. And
it turned out her daughter, I think it was, had
tragically passed away. So
(45:14):
it wasn't so much about the Christmas Eve service
and the structure of that service.
It was. She had so much emotional
baggage, so much emotional pain
around that time of year, uh, that another
change just felt like too much. And her being listened
to really change things.
So thank you for sharing that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (45:37):
Yeah, thank you. I think, um,
that's sort of the other piece in all of this is that
it's probably mostly not about you.
It's almost mostly not about you.
>> Loren (45:49):
That goes back to our Kenzie Tate clip.
Right? Like, we all got our stuff and
it's. It's not about us, but we
also process it like, it's about us.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:00):
Yeah.
>> Loren (46:01):
Um, pastors, check out Kenzie Tate. Uh, I'll tell her she
owes me for this, but
she's doing good stuff there. Let's do two more
here. Um, so this
is
the last one here.
Um, this actually comes
(46:22):
from your winter
season, and this is too good of a clip not to
play. So obviously
leadership is a tricky thing and let's just
play this. This is from Martha's interview over the
winter. I can't remember which number this is, but this is around the 100.
5155 episode number
(46:42):
with justice. Excuse me, Justin Lewis. Anthony,
is that right? And he talks about,
you know, he's, he's against the model of leadership.
And we might feel differently, or at least,
um, critiques some elements. But he does have some intriguing
points to play here. And this one especially
speaks to it. Let's listen in.
>> Justin Lewis-Anthony (47:04):
Interesting side question. Why don't they have leadership studies in
Germany? Because do you know what the german word for
leader is?
>> Martha Tatarnic (47:11):
Fuhrer.
>> Loren (47:12):
There you go.
>> Justin Lewis-Anthony (47:12):
Uh, it's really hard to have leadership studies when the
model of leadership is the Fuhrer.
>> Martha Tatarnic (47:17):
Oh my gosh.
>> Justin Lewis-Anthony (47:18):
Hitler wasn't the first Fuhrer. There were people who were constantly
looking for the Fuhrer. Um, like the
english look for King Arthur. And Bonhoeffer would
have been the perfect candidate for it. I mean, he was tall, he was good looking,
he was blonde, he was, ah, charismatic.
He was musical. Um, he played Bach.
Like Bach. Um, he was a fantastic tennis
(47:39):
player. Um, he was really good company. And
he was morally
scrupulous. Um, and he
refused to take on
the role that, um, people that he could
have easily taken on.
To go back to the lord of the Rings metaphor, he refused to take
the one ring. He was basically Faramir and not Boromir.
>> Loren (48:02):
Yeah, I'm not that well versed in, uh,
Lord of the Rings to remember that little who
those two people are. But
what he talks about, what Justin talks about in that clip,
I think is really compelling because especially,
I don't know what it's like up in Canada,
Martha, but we're certainly seeing this dynamic
(48:22):
in the States, you know, the run up
here to another election. And so many people
are really obsessed with, ah, Donald
Trump and his kind of just authoritative
leadership. There is so much
of this
tension, this appeal, this lust,
this temptation to become this kind of.
(48:46):
Because I think that, I don't know, like,
I think there is some kind of like,
sinful element, if I can use that word, of humanity, that we kind of
want this kind of like, tell me everything, I'll follow
you. When, like,
right. I think we'd say, like, our, we should follow
Jesus.
(49:06):
How do we balance attention as church
leaders?
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:13):
Like, Justin has some real mic
drop moments in that interview.
Um, and like you say, it's
hard to throw out the whole model of leadership
because we're
formed every step of the way to be
christian leaders. Like, oh,
this podcast is about christian
(49:34):
leadership in so many ways, and yet at the
same time. I think what he's saying fundamentally
is, like, we have to interrogate
that tendency. Well, like,
that Messiah complex, um, that we can wear
as christian leaders too
easily and that people can put on us
(49:54):
as well as, like, you say that, like,
deep desire to have somebody
just save us.
>> Loren (50:01):
Yes.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:02):
Right.
>> Loren (50:02):
Yes.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:04):
Like, we just. We want somebody to show up
and save our churches. We want somebody to show up and save
our country. I mean, that's what the maga
like, motto speaks to, right?
Like, is that desire to be saved.
And thankfully, like, in the church
anyway, we, um, we do
have a savior. We. We can forget
(50:26):
that. So, like, we have to keep.
We have to keep coming back to it. We have to keep
repenting, really. Like, we have to keep
being called back to who the
actual Messiah is. And,
like, spoiler alert, it's neither one of us.
>> Loren (50:42):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:43):
Or anybody else listening to this podcast.
>> Loren (50:46):
Yeah, well, this is. Well, this is good stuff. Any
other thoughts you want to share about, uh, the last season
here?
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:55):
Uh, I mean, I just love that we
have a chance to do this because I I do
see how interconnected all of this is.
I mean, everything that we heard in that last
clip is certainly not unrelated to
all of the pieces that we talked about around, you know, that
consumer model and that kind of
(51:15):
capitalistic model that we can get locked
into as churches
as well. And, um, I
think just giving an opportunity
for these really wise
voices that you keep bringing
into this podcast to speak,
(51:36):
um, to one another as well,
is, like, really important to
see the unique
perspectives that each guest is
bringing, but then also to see those common
denominators that keep rising to the surface.
>> Loren (51:52):
Yeah. Thank you. So why don't we give a teaser here
for your upcoming summer season?
Uh, share about some of the interviews and
conversations you're working on or in some cases,
already completed.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:06):
Yeah. Um, I mean, I'm really
excited about, uh,
the conversations that I've had so far. There's
some really interesting,
um, conversations about the
importance of the small
and the local in the life of the
church. Um, there
(52:28):
are, uh,
there's a conversation with someone
who doesn't give us those magic bullets,
but has done some research into,
uh, some of the common denominators across
flourishing and mainline churches, which I think
is of interest to a lot of our
(52:49):
audience. Um, talked
to some people here in my
neck of the woods in Canada, and some people
across the pond and, uh,
some people in the states. There's a few
other conversations around clergy,
um, burnout and wellness. And
(53:09):
I am working on, um, securing
an interview that I'm really excited about,
uh, with, uh, a particular hero of
mine. So if any of our audience wants to
just say a prayer for me that I'm actually able
to get that, uh, to
materialize, I would appreciate those prayers, because,
(53:30):
um, it's a conversation I would just love to share
with our audience.
>> Loren (53:35):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks so much,
Martha, for this conversation. Let's just each kind
of give our. Our shout out here. So
shameless. Well, honest asks. Let's say this, right,
honest asks. It really helps to
support our work here together. If you
can, um, subscribe, review,
share this with a friend. Martha, what am I
(53:58):
forgetting?
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:00):
Yeah, like, those reviews are the number one
way to help, uh, future
christian reach more people.
And, um, we say that not as
people who are really interested in
getting the greatest market share, um,
but as people who really care about the life
of our church and want this conversation to
(54:23):
be as, um, wide
and deep as possible.
>> Loren (54:27):
Yeah, yeah. Thanks for adding that.
Well, again, we always leave folks
with a word of peace. Samartha. May God's peace
be with you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:38):
And may God's peace be with you. Also, uh.
>> Paul (54:42):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
To learn more about Loren or the podcast,
visit future dash christian.com.
One more thing before you go. Do us a favor
and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're
feeling especially generous, leave a review.
It really helps us get the word out to more people about the
(55:02):
podcast. The
Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
arts and resonate media. Our episodes were
mixed by Danny Burton and the production support is
provided by Paul Romig-Leavitt Thanks
and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church into the 21st century.
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
(00:27):
Now, here's your host, Loren Richmond Junior.
>> Loren (00:32):
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Loren Richmond
Junior, and today I'm pleased to be joined by
my guest host, co host Martha Tatarnic. So
thank you so much for being here. Welcome.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:43):
Thanks, Loren. It's great to be here. All season
long, I listen to these conversations that you're having
on future Christian, and I just want to jump in
and, you know, continue the conversation. So
this is hopefully our listeners feel that way, too, and
this is our opportunity to do that. Keep the conversation
rolling.
>> Loren (01:02):
Yeah. Well, we have a special episode,
an exciting episode planned here. We're going to try something
new, and I think it'll be a great for a
conversation for our listeners to kind of get a review of what
the season was. And then here's some
highlights. So we're going to play some clips from
episodes and then kind of just share about
our thoughts and, you know, especially
(01:23):
Martha's going to share. She was not the one primary in the
driver's seat for most of these. Share some thoughts and
responses and just kind of review and overview
here. And, uh, as I'm talking, my dog is like,
shoving her head in my lap. One,
uh, such is the life of recording at home. So there's kind
of three broad points here from my season.
(01:45):
And I think, really, this is. Tends to be,
uh, what a lot of my focused conversations
are. And I think, martha, you tend to have a lot here
of overlap here, too. But, uh, three broad points we'll be
talking about today is pastoral health,
individualization versus connection, and then
leading change. So we're going to start off
(02:05):
with an interview I did at,
um, the reminder renew conference at
my seminary, Phillips seminary in Tulsa, Oklahoma, back
in January. And this is with Reverend Kenzie
Tate. She's a licensed counselor and
has a new program called Restore Clergy, where she's
working especially with clergy, to help clergy do
better. So she's talking here just about, uh, some of
(02:27):
the stuff that clergy have to deal with and how it can
affect, uh, their
ministry. So here we go. Let
me, let, uh, me get it going.
>> Kinsie Tate (02:38):
And especially if you're in a place of burnout, it's like that's what you're
living in. And so you can feel
hypocritical you can feel like, how do
I talk about a loving God when it's like, what am
this? This sucks.
>> Loren (02:50):
Yeah.
>> Kinsie Tate (02:51):
Like, I don't. I mean, this person in the pew
reminds me of my dad, who used to yell at me, and I
am all kinds of triggered, and I have no interest in being
compassionate to them. Like, that's. That is
fundamentally a human thing response.
Um, and I think what's hard for clergy is
we are expected to transcend that and to be able
to
(03:13):
speak of God's loving kindness. And it's like, I'm not
feeling it at all, and it's really hard to speak
about it.
>> Loren (03:20):
So I especially want to hear from you,
Martha, on this, because I know you've been in a position where
you've worked with a lot of younger leaders, and
you've. You've been in positions because you
didn't officially become, like, a middle judgment leader, but you were up
for such a role. Right.
So I just want to hear your thoughts on how,
like, clergy, their own stuff, can
(03:43):
often be a, uh, challenge in ministry.
>> Martha Tatarnic (03:47):
Yeah, I mean, I listened to this clip, and I just
think I can't
imagine that the, uh,
relatability isn't felt, like, right
across the north american church, like, no
matter what kind of congregation you're
serving in, because it's such a
theme in the conversations that we have on
(04:09):
future Christian. It's such a theme across
the conversations that I
have with colleagues. Um, it
is so easy to
get into this job because you
care about healing,
but, like, we
(04:31):
do it as wounded healers, right? Like,
we do it as people who
bring our own needs and
baggage. And, um,
we're negotiating a lot of
really challenging,
um, aspects of the landscape that are not
(04:51):
unrelated to the other categories that
we shape our conversations into around
navigating change, um,
you know, how we cope
in an increasingly secular world.
Um, so I think it's so
easy for, uh, if we
(05:11):
don't kind of have those support systems in
place and those honest conversations taking
place, then it is so
easy to just have all of
our baggage drive the bus, you know?
>> Loren (05:25):
Yeah. Uh, I like the way you said that. I
mean, I don't like it, but I like it. That's a good way of saying it. Let
her drag our baggage drive the bus.
What's the guy like? Yeah, go ahead.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:35):
We're gonna have the baggage, right? We just don't want it to be
in charge. Right.
>> Loren (05:44):
Oh, man. Yeah. What? So, like, a word?
What is a word of advice? Maybe that's been helpful
for you. Or you've given pastors when
thinking about your own stuff.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:55):
Well, I think the thing that I keep coming
back to, and I think is very much
my motivation for being part of this
podcast, is that I think we just
have to open up the conversation and
stop acting as if we have to
figure this out alone. Yeah, I've
done a few, like, speaking engagements lately, and I
(06:17):
have said to groups of clergy, like,
the problem with clergy burnout is not going to be solved
by getting a hobby and taking your day off.
Like, we need to have a
broader sense of how, like,
we're working collectively
to, you know, address
(06:38):
systemic change, um,
and to minimize the degree to which people feel
like it's all on their shoulders.
So, like, I
think the message of this podcast is, like, it's not all
on your shoulders. Like, we have a lot of collective wisdom,
and we need to be continuing
(06:59):
to bring that to the fore and
draw from that.
>> Loren (07:02):
Well, yeah. Yeah, that's good. So,
again, that's episode. I meant to get back and
pull the episode numbers. This is early on in season 15. I
can't remember this specific episode, but Kinsey
Tate. Look for that past episode. Next
one I'm going to play here is just a couple episodes ago with
Jonathan Foster. Jonathan, uh, Foster is a
former Nazarene pastor who's
(07:25):
actually, as I understand it, kicked out
of the denomination, uh, for his
inclusive views on LGBTQ folks.
So the interesting one of the things we talked about
here amongst some new movements
he's helping lead for clergy is
just this dynamic of what happens
is clergy can so often be the
(07:48):
primary caregiver in a community, and
especially with our employment being kind of that community that
we can often find ourselves without a home
or a place for receiving care ourselves.
Let's, uh, listen to this club here.
>> Ted Smith (08:02):
We're caregivers. And then
to be pushed out, you know,
kicked out in my case, officially and lots of other places
unofficially, it is a. It's a mind
trip. We're also a lot.
Lots of us are. Kind of like, when you're clergy,
you play, like, a meaning making role in
your community. So when bad things happen, you
(08:25):
help people make meaning.
>> Loren (08:26):
Right?
>> Ted Smith (08:26):
But what's crazy is when bad
things happen, like, if it's bad enough, like, uh, for
example, in my situation, my entire meaning making
system, you know, just kind of fell
apart right now, I was trying to create meaning in the
middle of chaos, right? And the poor people who had
to come to my church, I mean, I say poor people,
some of them were really, really great. And uh,
(08:49):
learned a lot. Um, that's a whole interesting
dynamic, too. And I think a lot of meaning making
clergy types, counselor chaplain types are in
that position, their lives personally.
>> Loren (09:02):
So, for added context here, I think. I
can't speak for certain here, but I know this to be true.
He lost his daughter tragically ten years ago,
so I think that's part of what he's speaking about. But again,
when you're the primary caregiver, to use that
language, it can be real tough. And,
Martha, um, I don't know about you, uh, how have you,
(09:24):
when you're leading in ministry,
what has been, like, your experience
when your family, personally, whatever, is
experiencing great tragedy? Like, I've
had times where I felt like I've been supported very well by a
congregation, other times not.
>> Martha Tatarnic (09:42):
Yeah, I mean, I've been now in
my congregation for ten years, and,
um, our family has
had a lot of ups and downs in those ten years, and I
give thanks to God that the church
has really been the church for me
in the best possible ways. I
(10:03):
realize that's not everybody's story,
um, but. But it is
mine. And I, you know, I count that
as one of the tremendous blessings
of my ministry. I mean, it also
helps that I'm in a congregation
with more than one clergy person, so
(10:23):
there's is more of a sharing
of the load. Um, I think that
it can sometimes be a lot harder for
clergy who are in
congregations where,
um, you know, they feel for one
reason or another that it does all rest on
them. Um, I found
(10:45):
this whole episode to be
extremely compelling and
heartbreaking, um, because,
again, like, relatability that I do
have lots of friends and colleagues who
feel sort of discarded
by the church, by the institutional
church. And what a tremendous, uh,
(11:08):
thing he's doing in creating this
open table network where there's
kind of this safety net for.
For m. Making sure that
there is church, for people who are leading the
church and who sometimes,
um, have the war
(11:29):
wounds, uh, to go along
with navigating change
and managing people's anxiety
and being the ones to make meaning
when everything falls apart.
>> Loren (11:43):
Let me ask you this, too, and I don't
know about the judicatory structure
of Anglicanism or
Episcopalianism in the states, for
instance, but, like, I know in my denomination, the
christian church decides Christ. And I think
there's, like, I'm thinking of, like, the UCC.
Other mainline denominations have similar
(12:06):
judicatory structures. Like, but especially in
my context, where it's like there is a, uh,
middle judiciary leader, and sometimes,
depending on the region, there's more or less.
But the person who a pastor might look
to be like their primary support is
also in some ways, their boss.
(12:26):
And again, depending on,
um, regional
autonomy and what have you, structure that
can be more or less official. But
how. How have you seen that navigated in the challenges
of such.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:43):
Yeah, I. I mean, all of those things
kind of get looped into the mix,
right? Because, uh, in
the anglican church,
uh, ah, like, my boss is my
bishop, um, but
also the bishop is supposed to be the pastor to the
pastor. So there is that inherent
(13:05):
conflict. And,
um, you know, there are kind
of a variety of ways in which the
church tries to navigate that. But,
um,
again, there's lots of people who,
um, sort of end up in
the crossfires of that
(13:27):
conflict. I'm not specifically referring
to my diocese. I'm just saying, like,
that can be a thing, right. Uh, and
I'm sure you see it in your denomination as
well, that you can't
necessarily say that
you're in need or you're in trouble,
(13:48):
uh, to your boss,
or maybe you feel you can't.
>> Loren (13:53):
Right? Yeah, uh, I'd have a
whole lot to say there, but thankfully, we don't have the time.
>> Martha Tatarnic (14:01):
Okay. Maybe, uh, an episode for another
day.
>> Loren (14:04):
Yeah, maybe an episode for another day. So one of
the other trends or themes of that episode
was of Jonathan Foster was, again, like this.
This new kind of credentialing,
um, ministry, I don't know what
organization, institution for clergy. So I
think it really. And one of the things I asked him about was this kind of,
(14:24):
like, this move societally, we are
towards, like, affinity groups, um, people
who really agree with us and separating from those who
don't. And that gets into another,
broader theme from this season, which is, I'm titling
individualization versus connection. And
so I want to play. I have a couple clips here from Ted
Smith. Um, so I want to play
(14:47):
this first one. I think this one is kind of shorter, but let's, uh,
listen in here.
>> Ted Smith (14:53):
This individualization that we have, it carves people out
of communities. It leaves them on their own
without any kind of story to orient their lives, and
then it charges them with building, all on their own,
an authentic self. Well, I wonder
why anxiety is so widespread. Like, that's
just. It's a terrible kind of condition
(15:13):
that a lot of people are in right now. Right?
And I think if what theological
education is designed to do is to
say, hey, you need. We're going to give you professional credentials to
go lead these crumbling voluntary associations. Well, people
aren't interested in that, like, just like what you're saying.
>> Loren (15:31):
Right.
>> Ted Smith (15:31):
But what they. But if theological education
says, hey, I
see this enormous challenge
that the world has given you, that you have to put a life
before God together and you have to figure out
all you know what and there's actually learning
through the centuries that can help you do that. Um,
(15:52):
well, that's a different purpose for theological education.
>> Loren (15:56):
So obviously, um, a
lot in that episode. I do recommend that
episode. Recommend his book, too.
>> Martha Tatarnic (16:04):
I really recommend that episode. It was excellent.
>> Loren (16:06):
Yeah, I'm looking at episode 172 for
context here. Um,
but one of the things he references, I'd said
prior to that clip, this thing
that I think a lot of younger clergy are
just, we're not willing to hold up an institution and basically
be crushed by the institution, but
(16:27):
then be like that. Individualization, I think there is this kind
of societal push to just be
this unique individual self, and that
gets exhausting. Um,
so talk about, I mean,
this dynamic, especially for churches
and seminaries, but in our context,
(16:47):
we primarily deal with churches, is like,
how does a church, like, support the individual but also, like,
not perpetuate this message? Like, you need, like, your
whole identity and purpose needs to be in, like, forming
your unique self identity. Like, you can. You
can be okay. Like, being part of
the body of Christ. Uh, I don't know if that makes sense, but.
>> Martha Tatarnic (17:08):
Yeah, well, it totally doesn't. You know, I don't
know who this is ascribed to, but it really
comes back to, uh, the,
like, are we as a church giving good
advice or are we giving good news?
Because I think it's, like, so easy
to slip into,
um, having people show up and
(17:30):
be like, okay, well, you've got to
be on board with social justice and you've got to give and you've got
to serve and you've got to do this and you've got to do that. And,
like, if we don't, then the world's going to fall apart. And,
like, all of those things might be
true and might be, like,
important components to discipleship,
but
(17:53):
we're there primarily to proclaim
the nearness of the
kingdom of God. Like, we're there to proclaim
like, it's already happening. Like, God is
right here and, like,
transforming the world and recreating the world in
our midst. And, like, um.
And God's at work in you, too. And like,
(18:15):
that's, like,
that's the.
The message that I
think our world is desperate to hear. Like, you're right.
Maybe our world is not desperate to hold up crumbling
institutions, but our world is
desperate to come back
(18:36):
to the relationship for which they're
created.
>> Loren (18:41):
I'll, uh, give a shout out here to
my, uh, fellow doc, pastor, and
podcaster, and technically a producer here.
Dennis Sanders has an episode on his
podcast, church in Maine, with an interview with Anthony Robinson,
the UCC pastor. And I can't remember
if they reference it in this podcast
(19:01):
or in one of the blogs that
Dennis shared in the show. Notes from that spot of the
conversation. But Anthony Robinson says
something about, like,
many times folks are coming to church with, like, a 30
pound bag and they're
being, like, handed another 30 pound bag and be
(19:22):
like, hey, go out and, like, live the good news.
>> Martha Tatarnic (19:26):
Yeah.
>> Loren (19:27):
You know, like, they're coming way down with, like, 30 pounds, and then,
like, we have them another 30 pound bag
of m. You know, things that are true. Like,
obviously, like, there are a lot of problems in this world that
I think we need to address and
talk about, whether it be racism or.
Or, um, LGBT
or the violence in the Middle
(19:50):
east. Like, these are all important issues, but, like, how do we frame
that in a way where people are
experiencing life and good news?
Right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (20:00):
Yeah. Ah. Like, grace and
transformation and hope and,
like. And a lifting of burdens.
Like, this is a place where you can come and,
like, we can gather in prayer for
the troubled places, and
collectively, we can discern our
response. And, um.
(20:23):
Yeah, like, we're not just. We're not just
lonely people trying to
navigate a really rough
world.
>> Loren (20:32):
Yeah. Let me play one more clip here, just from Ted
Smith. This is a short one.
Um, it kind of fits on
this trend of, again, individualization. This is
him m talking about, this movement
towards expressive or affinity group, so to
speak, in denominational life.
>> Ted Smith (20:53):
Um, but the challenge now is with these new, more expressive
denominations, it's harder
for them to want the other ones to continue to exist.
They would like for them just to disappear and to find any kind
of common cause, uh, starts to feel
really, really problematic.
>> Loren (21:10):
So, short clip there, obviously. But
I can't remember if that's what we're talking about. What we're talking about
exactly. But certainly what comes to mind hearing that is
this recent GMC,
UMC, uh, division that's happened,
you know, globally, the United Methodist Church
and the global Methodist church. And again, I'll give
a shout to my. To Dennis Sanders here.
(21:33):
He talks about in
the past, there was this
willingness to kind of say, like, if, for instance,
he exemplifies, like, a church that might have gone
through, uh, a tense vote about
whether to become, in our context, open, affirming,
inclusive of lgbt persons. And often
the language was like, we've got some healing to do after that
(21:55):
vote would happen. Now, it seems like. And I think this is what
Ted is alluding to, is like, there's this, like,
hey, you know, you're the people who voted against us.
We're leaving you behind, and we hope you
fail. And I don't want to speak too strongly here, but
it does seem like there is this idea that,
like,
from the. And again, I want to speak
(22:18):
firmly that I fully support. And I'm
grateful that folks who are LGBTQ, uh,
identifying, like, they get to live into their full
giftings that God has given them. But,
uh, also, I'm with
Ted here, assuming I'm interpreting him correctly,
what do we do with this? Like, this splintering, where it's just
(22:39):
almost like we want the other side to fail, if that
makes sense.
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:45):
Yeah, I mean, we've certainly
seen that splintering in
any number of our mainline
denominations, uh, over the
past 2030
years.
Um,
I don't know what the answer is,
(23:05):
because it feels like
in order to
embrace the church
that I believe God is calling us to
be, like, we do have to
take, uh, uh, stance on these things, and
it's hard to see in
(23:28):
how we do that without
there being a vote that ends
up with. Now, I know in our indigenous
circles or indigenous anglican
circles, there's a much different
way of coming to decision making.
Um, I think
that there's something to pay attention to there in
(23:50):
terms of, like,
maybe bringing it to a vote on the floor of
synod is
not the way forward.
Um, but, yeah,
I don't. Like. What do you think? What do you think
we do other than
(24:11):
what the alternative is not to take a
stand? Right.
>> Loren (24:15):
I think this is where I'm going to lean on Dennis. Uh,
what I've read from Dennis Sanders here and what I've heard from him, m. Is just
this. I think it has to be like,
because I would agree with you, I think there are times where
you have to say, hey, this is what I believe.
Um, so
I think that to use the family systems term,
(24:36):
self differentiation is important. But
again, this is where I want to lean into family systems
theory. There has to be a balance of, uh,
emotional connection and self
differentiation.
I've had Jack Chitama in the past, and he says something like, I think,
like, you know, going fully
after self differentiation is kind of like a narcissistic
(24:58):
behavior, and then obviously, like, you know, just completely
caving in to, you know,
emotional connection at all times, you know, that's not a
healthy, uh, object either. So
to go back to what Dennis Sinner says is like
seeking healing, um, and
that's far easier said than done. So I want to acknowledge
(25:18):
that. Um, but I just wonder, like,
how different things would be and maybe they
wouldn't be. Um,
but is it possible to go into
such divisive trends
with an attitude toward healing or seeking
healing and, uh, striving to
(25:40):
maintain? This is something that Jonathan and
I talked about in that episode with Jonathan and Foster this
tension between two things of self
differentiation and emotional connection,
trying to live in that tension, that balance.
>> Martha Tatarnic (25:55):
Yeah. And I mean,
at the risk of sounding trite,
I would hope that ultimately
being able to trust in the reconciling power of
God does allow us to have
really challenging discussions that
feel like,
(26:17):
are wounding.
Um, but
that there
you look at a lot of the things that christians have fought
about over the
centuries, and, um,
they, they do come to feel like,
(26:39):
like small potatoes.
There is a healing, uh, that does
take place over the course of time that I have
to believe God's hand is in.
>> Loren (26:51):
Yeah, that's good. I like that, that's hopeful. I appreciate
that you bringing that perspective. Let's move on
here. Since we're still
great clips here, I got to share. Um, so I want to set,
uh, early on in January. Again, this was actually recorded
prior to, but, uh, um, doctor Scott Thomas
spoke at the remind and renew conference at Phillips
(27:11):
Seminary. So I kind of spoke to him about his
work and he shared about
just kind of the challenges. This is more,
practically speaking, individualism versus connection,
how to connect with virtual audiences and bring them into the
wider life of the church.
>> Ted Smith (27:26):
Here,
they're willing to allow for talking, head
spectators participation,
but that's not a robust congregational
life. Uh, so I
think where congregations, and this includes the
megachurches as well,
our challenge now is how
(27:49):
do we deliver all those other aspects
of congregational life to a virtual
audience so that it's a robust
expression of Christianity and community
and not just, you know, I'm
watching televangelists, you
know, who are less good
televangelists.
>> Loren (28:09):
Right. So this is, uh, episode
160, I think. And this really connects with
your conversation with Michael Graham, which was
158, I believe, because I remember you had
a very similar conversation with Michael Graham, where he
said, like, hey, church should be getting away from
live streaming because it detracts from the
gathered community in person.
(28:32):
Obviously, there's going to be a lot of churches are going to choose to
stick with live streaming. Um, but
what do you think about that dynamic? Because, again, there is this kind of,
like, there's a safe kind of
aloof. That's not the right word, aloofness. But there's
this ability, uh, to not
fully engage or connect, I guess, when you're watching.
(28:53):
I'd love to do this, like, in person with
you, Martha. And I found that I've
been able to do more and more interviews in person and how much
more I appreciate doing those
interviews in person where I can. So you're living
this out, like, right now, obviously, as, uh, a local
parish pastor, and you're talking to other pastors about
(29:13):
this. What do you think about this dynamic of trying to get people
moved into physical community?
>> Martha Tatarnic (29:20):
Well, I tell you, I think about it a lot, because,
like, I am very compelled
by. By what these people are
saying. Um, you know, Ryan Panzer has a
lot to say about the holy and the hybrid.
Like, and, um. I know we're
gonna talk about Jake, him,
(29:41):
his name. Um, like,
yeah. There is an
incarnational, embodied aspect
to our faith that can't be short
changed. And at the same time, like,
live streaming, online ministry
is so baked into the life of our
church anyway, um, and has been
(30:03):
from way before the pandemic. So, like,
I just can't, um. I can't
imagine, like,
ejecting it from the life of our community because it,
uh, is experienced as a lifeline for so many
people who can't come to church or who are
isolated for one reason or another. Is it
(30:25):
also a way in which people kind of
bop around in church shop rather than become part
of the community? It is.
Um, so. But at the same
time, I'm always surprised by
the. When I connect
with people who only connect online,
(30:45):
I'm surprised by their experience of it
and then how that kind of feeds their
embodied living. So
I. I guess I
ultimately trust in
the power of the Holy Spirit to do something
with our circumstances that are sometimes
(31:06):
less than ideal. And I think that we have to be
taking seriously that continual
calling to the life of community,
um, rather than
consumerism. Like, I think we have to be clear about that. But
for me and our community,
anyway, it is here to stay.
>> Loren (31:26):
Well, let's jump right into that J. Kim
club you referenced. You use the word consumerism.
He talks about the dangers of seeing church as a product. So let's
listen to that real quick.
>> Jay Kim (31:37):
What we are unintentionally doing
is teaching people and telling
people, hey, you know what the church is. The church
is just a christian product to be
consumed. It's just good christian
content to be consumed. And listen, I am not
against good christian content. This podcast is
(31:57):
good christian content.
>> Loren (31:59):
I paid you to say that there.
>> Jay Kim (32:01):
So I'm not against that. But you
and I both would agree this podcast is not the
church. This podcast is not. Now, you and
I, as brothers in the family of God,
we make up a part of the church, global,
you know, universal. But the
podcast itself is not the church.
>> Loren (32:20):
So some almost hot takes there, right? And that's episode
162 there. But
yes, you were just talking about
consumerism, and
Jay Kim talks, right, about
this tendency, and I think we do it as pastors, is to try to
create a good product.
>> Martha Tatarnic (32:39):
Well, that's exactly what I wanted to say,
is, like, this leads me right back to
where we started in this podcast around clergy
health.
>> Loren (32:49):
Good point.
>> Martha Tatarnic (32:49):
I think that, uh, we are
absolutely, like,
we are formed as pastors to
be content creators. We're formed as pastors to
be entrepreneurs in some way, to
kind of be competitors
for increasingly scarce resources, which are the
people who are interested in organized religion. Right?
(33:12):
Like, and
so, like, I, uh, think what Jay
Kim is saying absolutely speaks
to the heart of, like,
what we need to keep coming back to
as christians in today's
society. We need to resist,
(33:33):
um, that message that we're
entrepreneurs competing for scarce
resources. We need to resist the idea
that we're content, uh, creators
producing a great christian product,
um, because
the temptations are
everywhere to buy into that
(33:55):
idea. And, like, the rewards for
being a successful Christmas tree
product feel pretty interesting.
>> Loren (34:02):
Uh, yeah, they do.
Well, I'm thinking back to something you said just
moments ago about, you know, trusting God to bring
reconciliation similarly. Right. So much of this
work, and I'll give a shout out
here to my favorite Andrew root, who writes a
lot about this, too, is just trusting
(34:24):
God. Um, so thanks for. Thank
you just for mentioning that again. It's so
easy to get into this. Like, what do I have to do to fix it?
Right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (34:34):
Yeah. What do I have to do? Yeah.
Honestly, like, almost every clip that we've listened to so
far today makes me think of something Andrew Root has said.
Uh, because, like, it's.
I think about that all the time. Like, we're focused on the wrong
problem. We're focused on trying to get people to come
to church, and we should be focused on how we
(34:56):
communicate the living God to a world that
has been taught to be individual, secular
people.
>> Loren (35:02):
I have, for listeners, I think
that's back in season 14, my last episode with Andrew Ruby, you can
check that out. Um, let's shift here, because you use the
word fix, and I'm thinking about. So much
of this involves leading change. So much of
this work involves leading change in our churches. And
this was from. Oh, I forgot to look it up.
Um, Doug Poe.
(35:25):
It's right before the Ted Smith, uh,
episode. So this is a conversation with Doug Poe, who co
wrote sustaining while disrupting, which is, again, a
book I highly recommend. Let's see if I can find it here.
But he talks about the dangers of a quick fix. And let's
listen in here.
>> Doug Powe (35:42):
These are not quick fixes.
And that's the piece that I'm trying to get to.
You're not going to wake up tomorrow and
say, um, um, this
is. Now I'm putting aside. I'm going to do this. I mean, these
things take place over a
long period of time where people say,
(36:02):
you know what? I do see
this differently and realize
that this probably was not as
critical as we thought it was before.
Um, so going
to your question, like I said, I don't
think we should undermine anyone's convictions, but I do
think that over time, many of these
(36:25):
things do change for individuals. I
mean, you have individuals today who.
>> Loren (36:31):
I cut that off there a little short. But the context of the
conversation is, he's talking about the section in their book,
which, uh, is about, um, change. And he
uses the example of Peter and
Cornelius and Peter literally setting
aside some convictions, you know, again, I don't
eat whatever. I don't remember. Right.
But, you know, I don't eat,
(36:53):
um, certain things.
Uh, but I think the thing we.
And maybe I should say me, because I know I'm terrible at this,
is this idea. Like,
I know there needs to be change
and that sometimes people need to set things aside,
but I'm like, I want to happen right away
(37:16):
and expecting that
quick fix. Um, and I know part of that's
cultural. In our current cultural
context, I know part of that is just frankly, like,
realistically, like, right when we see, like, the
financials going down and decline,
declining attendance, we think, like, something needs to happen immediately.
But what do you think? What if. What have
(37:38):
been your experience?
>> Martha Tatarnic (37:41):
Well, I think that it's hard to be a
couple of decades into ministry
and believe in quick fixes
anymore. Like, I think.
>> Loren (37:52):
Is that like a young clergy from.
>> Martha Tatarnic (37:55):
Yeah, like, I.
I think it's just like,
uh, an institution wanting to survive
problem. Because, like, we do,
we do keep getting, like, the magic
bullet answers. Like, they keep
being floated across our
(38:16):
desks, right? Like, we gather for,
like, professional development,
and it's like, okay, here's the,
here's the way to do it. Like, you just need
x, y, and z, and it's all going to be all right. You
just need, like, this package. You
just need this language. You just need this kind of worship. You
(38:37):
just need, um. And
none of it really seems to be
particularly moving the dial in
if we're looking at the dial being
reversing.
>> Loren (38:52):
Um.
>> Martha Tatarnic (38:54):
Decline of religion, like, of
how many people want to be part of institutional
religion. Um, so
I think the antidote to
quick fixes is
to be really clear
about discernment
(39:14):
and, like, where
God is leading us in this time for
these people.
>> Loren (39:22):
Boy, I had to write that down, that an institution
wanted to survive problem, because that's good.
That's good. And, um, boy, is it. Is that
truth. Holy smokes.
>> Martha Tatarnic (39:32):
It's true. It's true. And I get
it. I love this
church. We both do, right? That's why we're doing
this. Like, we. We love the church.
Yeah, yeah.
>> Loren (39:44):
Let's play here. Um, this
comes from Tessa Pinkstaff, who was a co author
on the book. Or is it
leading? Um, I'm trying to find the book title. I
can't find it.
>> Martha Tatarnic (39:56):
It's just out this week.
>> Loren (39:58):
It's just before, uh, will be the Brian McLaren
episode. So. And then. So it's two episodes back from this.
>> Martha Tatarnic (40:04):
How to lead faithful innovation.
>> Loren (40:06):
Yeah, or the book is leading faithful innovation. Thank you. That
reminds.
>> Martha Tatarnic (40:10):
Yeah.
>> Loren (40:10):
Um, but she talks about,
I asked her the question, like, how do you. There are gonna be times where
folks are just not gonna play ball, to use the
sports metaphor. And how do you deal with
folks who are just. Just convinced that
their job is to not move, to not
play along, to just be, uh, a stick in the mud? So
(40:31):
let me play that conversation. Uh.
>> Tessa Pinkstaff (40:35):
Yeah, we allude to this a little bit
in the book, and it was part of the process that we had when we
were working with the congregations. But some of what we
proposed was finding the core leaders
that are in your congregation who are ready for this
kind of work. We had guiding teams
that. That the congregations assembled. And that was,
(40:56):
it was sort of a ripple effect. It starts with the core group that's
ready. And then as that work is
flourishing, as the word gets out, as people start talking about
this sort of has a grassroots ripple where other people
see, oh, there's something happening here. The movement of the
spirit is going on here. People are excited. Change is taking
place, and it's in some ways. That's the basics of
(41:16):
discipleship. People see that something interesting is happening in
this pocket of the church, and others want to get involved, and it
just grows from there. There will be people. I want
to acknowledge that, and we acknowledge this in the book. There will be people
for whom this journey is too difficult. And. And
there's sort of a blessing of, we see you. We
know that this isn't what you need. We're going to keep moving.
(41:36):
We still care about you. It's an important thing to do, but it
is. You have to acknowledge that not everyone's going
to be able to do this, and God will take care of the people that
we have to sort of leave by the wayside as we keep
moving forward.
>> Loren (41:49):
So that seems pretty
strong. Right. And I don't think
she means that negatively, leaving by the wayside.
But what has been your experience? What have
you. What have you advised pastors when
clearly there's. Sometimes there's people in a congregation
who just are not willing to grow and change and
(42:09):
respond to the spirit's promptings?
>> Martha Tatarnic (42:13):
Yeah. I think that there were kind of two key
things for me when I first came to the church
I'm currently serving, and I was
a 35 year old woman. I was
the first female rector, like, the
first lead priest that they had had that was a
woman, and everybody felt like
(42:33):
there's too much changing all at once. There was a lot of
pushback, and there were kind of two things that happened that
were extremely helpful. The one was, um, um,
you know, somebody just saying basically what Tessa said,
like, menace. Like, put most of your
energy toward the people who.
Who want to get on board with this. And lo and behold, there
(42:54):
are lots of people who want to get on board with this, and
so really, like, nurture their faith and,
like, build them up. And it's so
easy, you know, as a teacher, to
put all of your energy into
managing the kids who are a problem, and. And the kids
who are, like, there to learn get nothing,
right. So, like, so direct
(43:16):
directing of energy. I totally get what Tess is
saying. But then the other piece
I was going to visit, this elderly woman in the
congregation, and her son, God
bless him, reached out to me before I went and said,
look, before you go to see my mom, I'm just going to give you a
piece of advice. Like, she doesn't like
(43:37):
you. Like, she. She
thinks that women shouldn't be priests, and, like, she thinks that
you're changing too many things, he said, like, you're gonna
be tempted to try to talk her out of how she
feels, but just listen to her. Like,
don't try to. Don't try to convince her otherwise. Like,
just say, yeah, I really hear you, and, like,
(43:57):
like, validate. Right? Um, and
therapy language. Validate. I ended up
having, like, the best relationship with this woman,
and if he hadn't have emailed me, I would have gone
and try to, like. Because in my mind, it's just
like, clear in my mind what we need to do and why this
is, like, the right way forward. And if she can
see things as clearly as I see them, of course she's going to
(44:20):
get on board. Well, she wasn't going to get on board because
I'm convincing, but she actually did get
on board because I listened to her.
>> Loren (44:28):
Well, there's a lesson there.
>> Martha Tatarnic (44:30):
It was huge. It was really huge.
Yeah.
>> Loren (44:33):
I'm thinking again about, um, I'm trying to
write this down. She got on board because you
listened. Um, I'm
thinking again about my guy, Jack Tatama, who I love to listen
to, talks about family systems theory. He tells a story about
when he was at a church. Uh,
he brought a change to their Christmas Eve service,
(44:54):
and he kind of put it out there.
We're going to do something different for Christmas Eve this year.
People threw a fit, one woman in particular, through a
fit. So he went over there, rather than
trying to defend what he was going to do, he just listened to her. And
it turned out her daughter, I think it was, had
tragically passed away. So
(45:14):
it wasn't so much about the Christmas Eve service
and the structure of that service.
It was. She had so much emotional
baggage, so much emotional pain
around that time of year, uh, that another
change just felt like too much. And her being listened
to really change things.
So thank you for sharing that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (45:37):
Yeah, thank you. I think, um,
that's sort of the other piece in all of this is that
it's probably mostly not about you.
It's almost mostly not about you.
>> Loren (45:49):
That goes back to our Kenzie Tate clip.
Right? Like, we all got our stuff and
it's. It's not about us, but we
also process it like, it's about us.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:00):
Yeah.
>> Loren (46:01):
Um, pastors, check out Kenzie Tate. Uh, I'll tell her she
owes me for this, but
she's doing good stuff there. Let's do two more
here. Um, so this
is
the last one here.
Um, this actually comes
(46:22):
from your winter
season, and this is too good of a clip not to
play. So obviously
leadership is a tricky thing and let's just
play this. This is from Martha's interview over the
winter. I can't remember which number this is, but this is around the 100.
5155 episode number
(46:42):
with justice. Excuse me, Justin Lewis. Anthony,
is that right? And he talks about,
you know, he's, he's against the model of leadership.
And we might feel differently, or at least,
um, critiques some elements. But he does have some intriguing
points to play here. And this one especially
speaks to it. Let's listen in.
>> Justin Lewis-Anthony (47:04):
Interesting side question. Why don't they have leadership studies in
Germany? Because do you know what the german word for
leader is?
>> Martha Tatarnic (47:11):
Fuhrer.
>> Loren (47:12):
There you go.
>> Justin Lewis-Anthony (47:12):
Uh, it's really hard to have leadership studies when the
model of leadership is the Fuhrer.
>> Martha Tatarnic (47:17):
Oh my gosh.
>> Justin Lewis-Anthony (47:18):
Hitler wasn't the first Fuhrer. There were people who were constantly
looking for the Fuhrer. Um, like the
english look for King Arthur. And Bonhoeffer would
have been the perfect candidate for it. I mean, he was tall, he was good looking,
he was blonde, he was, ah, charismatic.
He was musical. Um, he played Bach.
Like Bach. Um, he was a fantastic tennis
(47:39):
player. Um, he was really good company. And
he was morally
scrupulous. Um, and he
refused to take on
the role that, um, people that he could
have easily taken on.
To go back to the lord of the Rings metaphor, he refused to take
the one ring. He was basically Faramir and not Boromir.
>> Loren (48:02):
Yeah, I'm not that well versed in, uh,
Lord of the Rings to remember that little who
those two people are. But
what he talks about, what Justin talks about in that clip,
I think is really compelling because especially,
I don't know what it's like up in Canada,
Martha, but we're certainly seeing this dynamic
(48:22):
in the States, you know, the run up
here to another election. And so many people
are really obsessed with, ah, Donald
Trump and his kind of just authoritative
leadership. There is so much
of this
tension, this appeal, this lust,
this temptation to become this kind of.
(48:46):
Because I think that, I don't know, like,
I think there is some kind of like,
sinful element, if I can use that word, of humanity, that we kind of
want this kind of like, tell me everything, I'll follow
you. When, like,
right. I think we'd say, like, our, we should follow
Jesus.
(49:06):
How do we balance attention as church
leaders?
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:13):
Like, Justin has some real mic
drop moments in that interview.
Um, and like you say, it's
hard to throw out the whole model of leadership
because we're
formed every step of the way to be
christian leaders. Like, oh,
this podcast is about christian
(49:34):
leadership in so many ways, and yet at the
same time. I think what he's saying fundamentally
is, like, we have to interrogate
that tendency. Well, like,
that Messiah complex, um, that we can wear
as christian leaders too
easily and that people can put on us
(49:54):
as well as, like, you say that, like,
deep desire to have somebody
just save us.
>> Loren (50:01):
Yes.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:02):
Right.
>> Loren (50:02):
Yes.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:04):
Like, we just. We want somebody to show up
and save our churches. We want somebody to show up and save
our country. I mean, that's what the maga
like, motto speaks to, right?
Like, is that desire to be saved.
And thankfully, like, in the church
anyway, we, um, we do
have a savior. We. We can forget
(50:26):
that. So, like, we have to keep.
We have to keep coming back to it. We have to keep
repenting, really. Like, we have to keep
being called back to who the
actual Messiah is. And,
like, spoiler alert, it's neither one of us.
>> Loren (50:42):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:43):
Or anybody else listening to this podcast.
>> Loren (50:46):
Yeah, well, this is. Well, this is good stuff. Any
other thoughts you want to share about, uh, the last season
here?
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:55):
Uh, I mean, I just love that we
have a chance to do this because I I do
see how interconnected all of this is.
I mean, everything that we heard in that last
clip is certainly not unrelated to
all of the pieces that we talked about around, you know, that
consumer model and that kind of
(51:15):
capitalistic model that we can get locked
into as churches
as well. And, um, I
think just giving an opportunity
for these really wise
voices that you keep bringing
into this podcast to speak,
(51:36):
um, to one another as well,
is, like, really important to
see the unique
perspectives that each guest is
bringing, but then also to see those common
denominators that keep rising to the surface.
>> Loren (51:52):
Yeah. Thank you. So why don't we give a teaser here
for your upcoming summer season?
Uh, share about some of the interviews and
conversations you're working on or in some cases,
already completed.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:06):
Yeah. Um, I mean, I'm really
excited about, uh,
the conversations that I've had so far. There's
some really interesting,
um, conversations about the
importance of the small
and the local in the life of the
church. Um, there
(52:28):
are, uh,
there's a conversation with someone
who doesn't give us those magic bullets,
but has done some research into,
uh, some of the common denominators across
flourishing and mainline churches, which I think
is of interest to a lot of our
(52:49):
audience. Um, talked
to some people here in my
neck of the woods in Canada, and some people
across the pond and, uh,
some people in the states. There's a few
other conversations around clergy,
um, burnout and wellness. And
(53:09):
I am working on, um, securing
an interview that I'm really excited about,
uh, with, uh, a particular hero of
mine. So if any of our audience wants to
just say a prayer for me that I'm actually able
to get that, uh, to
materialize, I would appreciate those prayers, because,
(53:30):
um, it's a conversation I would just love to share
with our audience.
>> Loren (53:35):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks so much,
Martha, for this conversation. Let's just each kind
of give our. Our shout out here. So
shameless. Well, honest asks. Let's say this, right,
honest asks. It really helps to
support our work here together. If you
can, um, subscribe, review,
share this with a friend. Martha, what am I
(53:58):
forgetting?
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:00):
Yeah, like, those reviews are the number one
way to help, uh, future
christian reach more people.
And, um, we say that not as
people who are really interested in
getting the greatest market share, um,
but as people who really care about the life
of our church and want this conversation to
(54:23):
be as, um, wide
and deep as possible.
>> Loren (54:27):
Yeah, yeah. Thanks for adding that.
Well, again, we always leave folks
with a word of peace. Samartha. May God's peace
be with you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:38):
And may God's peace be with you. Also, uh.
>> Paul (54:42):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
To learn more about Loren or the podcast,
visit future dash christian.com.
One more thing before you go. Do us a favor
and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're
feeling especially generous, leave a review.
It really helps us get the word out to more people about the
(55:02):
podcast. The
Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
arts and resonate media. Our episodes were
mixed by Danny Burton and the production support is
provided by Paul Romig-Leavitt Thanks
and go in peace.
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