Peter Elliott on Navigating Ministry and Creativity in a Changing Church

Episode Transcript
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>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether

(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.

>> Loren (00:43):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Martha welcomes Peter Elliott to the show. Peter
Elliott is a priest of the Anglican Church of Canada,
hailing from the Niagara region of Southern Ontario.
His ministry has included leadership within the Anglican
Communion for the full inclusion of LGBTQ people,
and strong advocacy for a spirituality that promotes
social and environmental justice.

(01:05):
Over his 40 plus years in ordained ministry,
Peter has served in senior positions internationally and
nationally within the Anglican Church. A
longtime resident of Vancouver, British Columbia, Peter
was dean of Christ Church Cathedral and currently is a coach
and consultant in private practice. He is
a featured writer on arts and culture in the Anglican
Journal, the national newspaper of the Anglican Church of

(01:28):
Canada, and enjoys working with the dean of Portland,
Oregon, the Very Reverend Nathan LaRude, as co
host of the podcast the Gospel and Musical
Theatre. Peter's husband, Thomas Roach, is
an artist working primarily in textiles. Please take
a moment to rate and review this episode on whatever podcast
platform you're listening on, and if you find it helpful,
please share it with a ministry friend. Our mission is to

(01:50):
help you and your church walk with faith boldly into the
future.

>> Martha Tatarnic (02:02):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am,
um, the co host of Future Christian, Martha
Tatarnick. Today I'm having a
conversation with Peter Elliott, a
longtime colleague and a mentor to
many of us, including me in the
Anglican Church of Canada. Welcome to the
podcast, Peter. It's so great to have an opportunity to talk.

>> Peter Elliott (02:24):
Hey, Martha, thanks for the invitation. Happy to hop
aboard.

Now, we know each other from way back
and, uh, all kinds of, you know, various
family connections across the Anglican Church
and so on and so forth. But many of our
listeners certainly, um, don't know
you. So we're gonna start with some opening
questions and give, uh,
our listeners an opportunity to get to know

(02:51):
you a little bit. So, Peter, what was
the faith context in which you.

Ooh, well, you're in St. Catharines, Ontario. I grew up in St.
Cathari, Catherine's, Ontario. Born in
1954
and into a family very
connected in the Life of the church. Guess the
deep values of our family were
spirituality, um,
music, uh, um,

(03:19):
education and family.
You know. So, uh. My mom and dad were both
very, very involved. Um, Grace Church, St.
Catherine's it was
the. I was born in 54, so you know,
I'm a. I'm a baby boomer and that
Partisan Catharines, which now looks old,

(03:39):
uh, down around Geneva street and so forth.
Um, was new suburbs
and Grace Church was a new church.
And they were both very involved. My dad had been involved in
the Anglican Young People's association, the
aypa Famous,
famous um organization in its time,
um, as Dominion president. And so,

(04:01):
um, he went, for
example, as a youth delegate to the First World Council of
Churches in Amsterdam in
1948. Heard Carl
Bart and he.
I think from that experience and from his sort of
national, international experience as a lay leader.
He was a financial executive.

(04:23):
Got a very, A broad vision of the
church, uh, very progressive
vision, rooted uh, in
spirituality. And so he brought that home
with him. My mom's origins, although
they met in the Anglican Church, their mothers knew each other when
they were pregnant with each other. Um,
uh, had veered into evangelical Christianity. And so she was

(04:45):
very at home in uh. More
the Plymouth Brethren tradition. Although she was a
good ah, Anglican through to her dying day.
Um, and those influences came uh,
in. So our family spent a lot of time in church.
I was a boy soprano, um, and
so sang in choirs. Studied with

(05:07):
Eric Dowling, who was the uh,
organist and choir master at your parish and George's and
Catherine's for many years. He was my.

Yeah, we shared a few, um, organists and
choir askers who moved around our
church.

Um, so singing
church, um, involvement. Um, that was all
very important. And in high
school I got involved with the
evangelical movement, the
Jesus people, uh, I'm that
old, um, the Charismatic Renewal
Movement, um,

(05:43):
and was a bit of a Jesus freak in
high school.
Um.

I did not know that about you people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so those
influences were also very important.
Um, and then I got to university. I
was really seeking to get away from God.
Um, and I found the more that I read,
the more that I wrote. I was thinking theologically,
I mean, language I'd put around it now.
Um, and so went to seminary. But that's. Early

(06:14):
influences were St Catherine's Anglican
Church, International
Progressive Christianity and the Evangelical
Charismatic Renewal Movement.

Yeah, those are some really great pillars,
um, of influence and context. And you've
teed up my next opening question, which is why
don't you tell us a Bit about your calling. Well,
found yourself going to seminary after trying to get away
from God.

So my mother, were she here,
may she rest in peace, bless her heart, would
probably pull out embarrassing photos
of me playing church as
a kid. My
grandfather, her dad built me
a pulpit when I was 8 years
old. It's

(07:04):
still in our house.
Um, and so
from uh, early, early uh
years I had wondered about whether
or not God was calling me into
the life of the church as a priest and that sort of
thing.
Um, late high

(07:25):
school my best friend
was killed in a plane crash. Suddenly he,
he's involved with Niagara Flying Club
co, ah, piloted small planes. The plane was
lost, found, um, no
survivors. And so
all of a sudden some of the

(07:45):
certainty that I had relied
on in my faith mainly through the
evangelical world and some of the charismatic
renewal God was, was somewhat absent.
And that's um, why
I chose to go to a secular
university. And I thought I'd be an English
teacher or something like that. That was the aspiration

(08:07):
I had. Okay, but ah,
then writing and reading, um,
I studied English literature and philosophy
and that was what really, what really attracted me were
theological themes and God's great
trick on me. I went to Trent University in Peterborough,
Ontario, um, thinking it was a really secular

(08:27):
university, not knowing that most of
the faculty had been recruited from Trinity College in
Toronto, um, and were
more Anglican than Anglicans. And so everywhere I turned around
I was bumping into
Anglicans. So I thought
I'd go to seminary. The bishop at the time

(08:47):
was encouraging some of us to go to
um, to study in the U.S.
um, and so I went to
Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge Massachusetts
and that was an eye opening experience. Went
thinking I'd study theology but I really
wasn't sure about ordination.

Like maybe get it, get it out of my system.

It looked like it was sort of around well
boom. From Ontario into
Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1976. The
first UM
notice I saw on the bulletin board
was uh, a report from the
General Convention which was in Minneapolis in

(09:31):
1976. And the notice simply said ordination
of women approved.
And already at EDS there were two
of the women who were ordained in
Philadelphia, Carter Hayward and Sue Hyatt,
who were on faculty and were regularly presiding in
chapel. Irregularly ordained

(09:51):
was. So I
discovered the feminist movement,
um, discovered what one of my friends
referred to as a venerable lesbian, uh and gay
community at the school,
progressive theology,
um, and did a couple of years at
a parish. I worked at Christchurch, Harvard Square,

(10:13):
um, uh, and found out I really
kind of loved parish ministry. So
with A friend. One night over a glass
of bourbon, we were
sitting reflecting on our lives and I said,
I think I'm in for this ordination thing. I
mean, maybe it was no road to

(10:35):
Damascus for me. It was no sudden thing. It
was kind of an evolving consciousness. Uh, a
call, I guess.

Yeah. Sounds like God had some
chess pieces moving against you
to sort of get you into
that uh, checkmate situation
in the best possible way. Yeah,
that's lovely. So,
uh, what's uh,
some change that you have clocked in the

(11:07):
Christian context from growing up
to now? I mean, I'm guessing there's a lot.
So maybe pick one.

Yeah. So moving from Cambridge,
Massachusetts to Hamilton, Ontario
was an enormous culture shock.
And I remember I was secured at the cathedral,
the Anglican Cathedral in Hamilton. And
one of the things I was asked to do was to help
coordinate a service for the
girls auxiliary, which used to be

(11:36):
this kind of. It was like Brownies or
guides, but it was an Anglican order for young
girls. We were meeting, um, they all wore
uniforms and that sort of stuff. And
we were meeting to plan the uh, uh, the
service and they said,
um, so we would like
to sing the hymn Sons of God

(11:59):
now. I came back from EDS
commit, deeply committed to inclusive language.
Like that was it. And the
idea that you
would have a church full of young girls all
singing Sons of God was just
cognitive dissonance. Like, are you people
listening to yourself?

Yeah. Yeah.

But in some ways I think my time at seminary gave
me a sneak preview of what the future was going to be
like. And then came into the Anglican Church of
Canada where already women were
ordained, but the uh, patriarchy and misogyny
was still present, as it still
is. Uh, by the way.

Mhm.

Um, I came to. Back
to the Canadian church just as the book
of alternative services was being
new liturgies. And there's a huge
backlash to that.

New liturgies.

Um, so I came into
a changing church. I came in 1980 when I was
ordained, the church was already in
decline. The
decline was subtle for sure. Um, but it
was there. And um,
over, you know, I mean, Good Lord,
um, 44 years now,

(13:19):
ordained. I've seen the
decline of accelerate, um,
become precipitous. Um,
and
when there are articles, as there sometimes are
recently was that says the decline
was caused by progressive values

(13:42):
finding their way into the church.
I want to call on that. I
don't think it's anything to do with
progressive values. I think the
causes are deeper. So living through the
decline, resisting it, trying to,
um, trying to find
ways to get out of it. I

(14:04):
mean that's kind of.

Yeah, yep,
yep. Those are, those are definitely some
overarching themes.
Um, and I think that you're
absolutely right. I take issue when
um, when people like to point
to a single thing and say, haha,
that was what if.

You hadn't ordained women, if you hadn't changed the King James version,
if you hadn't brought GLT,
LGBTQ2s plus
queer folks in, you know, I mean.

Yeah, yeah, no,
yeah, yeah, totally.
Okay. What is a spiritual practice
that you are finding meaningful now?

I'm not a contemplative. I'm kind of bad
on all that sitting, uh, and thinking
about God stuff
and I feel badly about that. But you know, I don't think you
can, you can't by force of will become a
contemplative. In my humble, uh, point of
view.

I feel like God has room for us
non contemplatives.

That's such a relief, Martha. Thank you.

You know, yeah, I, I feel like God loves
us too.

You know, I've, I'm banking on it.
Me too, me too. Um,
my theologically, my view has
become very uh, earth centered
and so
um, I mean I, I agree.
When Richard Rohr says that the first
incarnation wasn't in Bethlehem, the

(15:40):
first incarnation was the Big Bang when
divine energy materialized. That's beautiful.
And so every tree,
every, every plant, every
animal, all of life
discloses the, the mystery of
God. So we're fortunate enough,
um, my husband and I to live

(16:02):
in Vancouver right next to the,
to the, to, to the beach and right next
to, adjacent to Stanley Park.
Um, so
um, uh, we spent a lot of time
outside we in pandemic times. We started
and it has continued, uh, walking through
the woods. Um, and so

(16:24):
right now we're recording this in late uh,
summer. Uh, I find
my spiritual practice is meditating on a
dahlia adalia are these
amazing flowers
that uh, um, are
uh, they grow
um, taller than me and I'm

(16:46):
six foot two. Uh, so they're
huge.

My gosh.

Uh, I'm holding up my hands. Uh, it's a podcast.
You can't see it. Some of uh,
the blossoms are called dinner plate. They're the
size of a dinner plate and
intricately formed. The colors, the
symmetry, the sheer
beauty of them is
astonishing.

Mhm. That sounds pretty contemplative,
Peter. I don't know.

It's as close as I'm going to get.

I'm sold. Absolutely.
Okay. Well, I had ah, a couple of
specific reasons why I wanted to Invite you
on our podcast. Um, first of all,
you've had a really significant leadership
impact on the Anglican Church of
Canada. You had a long

(17:40):
and uh,
um, well
respected career in a, leading a
flourishing cathedral church in Vancouver.
Um, you now continue to have an impact
as you offer coaching for people currently on the
ground in Christian leadership and
also in semi retirement,

(18:02):
you're continuing to do some new and creative
things, including a podcast whose
content speaks to me the Gospel of
Musical Theater. So we're going to get into all
of those um, pieces
of interest for me and for
listeners. But I think it's really helpful
to just start by talking

(18:25):
about a few takeaways that you might offer,
uh, those who are currently in the trenches in
Christian leadership. From your very
full and successful
um, run in parish
ministry, what were some of the biggest
learning curves for you?

Oh boy. You know,
in parish ministry specifically, I was dean
of Christchurch cathedral, Vancouver for 25 years.
Um, and now I do sort of
popping into parishes from time to time at the bishop's
request, um, helping out,
um, here and there, reading the

(19:04):
culture,
like um, in
adaptive leadership theory they talk about
what are the artifacts of culture
in a congregation.
Um, and some of that is uh,
are things like furniture,
um, processes of decision

(19:27):
making, that sort of thing.
Uh, another part are the
human documents, the human beings who make up
congregations and the way
they have figured out you know,
um, how to be church
uh, in our time.
Um, so that's a learning curve. I mean it just takes

(19:48):
years. Uh, uh, I
followed a number of luminaries at Christchurch
Cathedral in Vancouver. You know, ah, Herb
O'Driscoll now of blessed memory, Jim
Cruikshank, Michael Ingham.
Um, so there was my First Rector's
warden 10 years after I started,
introduced me to one of her friends as the

(20:11):
new dean.
Um, so it had
this, um, had a kind
of uh, a long
memory. Uh, and finding
a way in wasn't always easy.
In, in early days, the early days of the cathedral

(20:31):
were hard. Um, I
was a bit of a change agent so
um, you know that was, that was
difficult. But then
once I kind of absorbed the
culture and became part of it, really
by the end, very much a part of it, maybe too much
after 25 years.

(20:53):
Um, then it was
then, then it was like I caught sail.
Um, and, and things
clicked. Now that doesn't mean it was all beer
and skittles, dear Lord. I mean every day was a uh,
new set of problems and conflicts and
uh, difficulties and all that sort of stuff. But

(21:15):
I get summer to summarize reading the
culture, knowing the people,
and, and figuring out how.
How I sit in it.

Yeah, yeah. I mean,
I think that, um, those are some
really key ingredients. They all take time, don't
they? Like, I, I mean,
25 years is a real run
in parish ministry in one place.
I'm 10 years into, uh, St. George's

(21:49):
where I currently serve. And, yeah, I get
that sense of, like, the wind starting to be in the
sails, like, when you've put
in quite a bit of legwork in
terms of just, like,
getting to know where you are
and become part of it.

Speaking the language,
um,
knowing the characters. Um,
there was an article a long time ago from the Albin
Institute that the thesis of it was,
parish ministry begins after 10
years. And the notion was that it
takes 10 years to read the

(22:30):
culture, to be accepted, to
be trusted as someone
trusted, someone who would show up when
needed, um, take care of
folks.
Um, yeah,
and. And that's, you know, because after 10 years, I got itchy
feet and thought, it's time to move along somewhere. And

(22:53):
then I read that article and thought, oh, I guess I've just
begun. Um, so just to your
point, that's.

A really nice reframe, isn't it?

Just to your point about it taking time.
Think about it. I guess the meta, A metaphor would be,
you know, um, the time it takes for a
good wine to mature.

Yep, yep. I like that. I like that.
And, you know, it's a good learning.
Um, I don't know where you fall in this category, but, like, I'm
definitely somebody who wants everything done yesterday.
And so, like, I
definitely have come into the various
parishes. I've served with a million
ideas that I want to do right away. And, and

(23:35):
I generally get right on it. And,
um,
like, yeah, good
ministry needs to sort of grow at the
speed of relationship building, and that's
pretty slow. And.

Yeah.

And, like, that's not at all
uh, slight against getting
things started and trying new things and so on. I mean, I'm
a big fan of all of that, but I,
I also
just, like, it does take time
to build that trust and
that knowledge and.

Yeah.

Are there things about parish ministry that
are just completely different from what
you thought 40, 44
years ago when you were ordained? Like, what are the
biggest surprises?

Well, I mean, for me, the biggest surprise was getting involved in parish
ministry because
I. Because I'm gay. And in
1980, being openly gay in the life of the
church was kind of. Ah, it
was a red mark against you. It was something you Know,
Scarlet Letter, whatever.
Um, uh.

(24:48):
And so my heroes had always been
church bureaucrats. I always thought people who
worked for the national church or
diocesan folks, um, that would be
a great career. And that was really my. The career path I was on.
Um, I worked for the Diocese of
Toronto, um, uh,
coordinating, uh, lay education for

(25:10):
about five years. And then I worked for the
National Anglican Church of Canada as a, uh,
senior, senior management and program for five
years. Um, and
it was, uh. And I thought because
there were lots of gay people who hid in church
bureaucracy, it was
safe. We weren't safe in parishes,

(25:32):
um, because God knows what homosexual people would be up
to in parishes. I mean, people's minds. Thank God.
This has changed so much. It's one of the big changes.
Thank God for it.

One of the big changes.

So I was. I was as surprised as anybody
when, uh, Michael M.
Ingham, who was then the bishop, came calling at the national
office, said, I'm looking for a dean. Uh,
he'd been elected bishop. And I said,
okay, Michael, I've been thinking about that. Um, I've got some names
for you. Because the job I had, I was
responsible for what the Anglican Church of Canada did in

(26:07):
Canada. Not the international stuff, uh, and that sort
of thing, but the Canadian Mission. Uh, and so
bishops were quite often in my office looking for clergy because
I knew lots of people across the country. I
said, I've got some names for you. He said, no, no, no, Peter,
I'm. I'm looking at you.
I said, oh, Michael, you gotta be out of your mind.
He said, what do you mean? I said, well, I've never lived west

(26:30):
of Burlington, Ontario. Um,
I've never been the rector of a parish, and
I'm gay and I'm not called a celibacy.
And he said, oh, okay, well, just hold on a minute. And
we talked those three things. He said,
um, the cathedral isn't
really like a parish. It's more like a program
center. And actually, your executive skills would

(26:51):
be really, really helpful. I said, well, I don't want to be sitting,
spending a lot of time having tea with old ladies and stuff. He
said, no, don't have to worry about that sort of thing. And
we talked about the west, living in Western Canada
on, um, the coast and, uh, and
around the gay thing. He said, I'll. I'll support you as far
as I'm able.

(27:12):
So I interviewed for the job, got the job. Long story short,
to, uh, your direct question, by the end of
my time, what I ended up loving about
parish ministry was Sitting
with older women
and men, having tea and
talking,
because I learned so

(27:34):
much. Their faith, their
faithfulness, their
questions, their capacity to
change. There was a
beautiful woman at the cathedral.
She died probably 20 years ago or so. She was
in her late 80s when I arrived.
And when she found out, uh,

(27:55):
Thomas and I were together, she
called me and she said, you're coming over for tea.
Both of you. Like that. I said, okay. So we
went over and had tea. And
it was her way of blessing, right? Her way of
saying, yeah. And she said, if ever
anybody tells you they're too old to change,

(28:15):
introduce them to me.

Oh, my gosh.

So. And so the cathedral, I found.
And I found in most parishes that I've
hung around in, if
you take. If, you know, you talked about being
on a quick learn, you want to do things. And, gosh, I was
that. I want to do everything. I wanted to build a congregation, wanted
to add new programs in all that. Once

(28:40):
I slowed down and started listening to folks,
I would wonder sometimes when I, you know, approach
the altar or the pulpit at the cathedral,
what the hell am I doing talking to these people
presiding? These are the, uh. These people.
My God, such faithfulness.

I know. And, like, through
really hard things, you know, like.
Like, you just. You understand
something about resilience and
generosity and, like, how
your heart can break and, like.
And beautiful things

(29:22):
can be done. Like, grace can come
through that heartbreak. Like, I
mean, it.
Uh. The point I just
always find kind of
overwhelming in worship is when people come up
for communion and,
like, I know what they're coming up with.

(29:44):
You know, I know what they're carrying. And I.
And there they, like, they come
so faithfully and.
And they know how God has been with them, you
know, like, they know how their
faith has seen them through. It's
remarkable. Like.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Yeah.
I. I mean, a similar thing for me,
we, on Good Friday at the cathedral,
um, did veneration of the cross
after homily and stuff. And so we bring in a
big cross and then invite people to come forward and stand by the
cross while the choir sang the reproaches or an anthem
and that sort of stuff. And I. Oh, I stay. I sat

(30:27):
there most, most, most, uh,
good. Most every Good Friday and just
silently wept. Seeing people stand in
front of the crowd, knowing what they were bringing, you know,
just because I knew these folks,
um, and amazed at their
faithfulness and their, um.
Yeah. So,

(30:49):
I mean, I know parishes can be frustrating and good God, you
know, pardon my language, there are some real assholes that you
encounter and in work in the
church and people who don't like,
people who didn't like me, which I find impossible
to understand why, but
that is impossible. But, you know, people just. They.
They weren't on my. We weren't on the same wavelength. That's

(31:11):
fine. Um, and people who,
especially through some of the sex
wars in the mid to late
90s, um, you know, said
horrible, awful things. So I'm not saying that
the church is far from a perfect
institution, but at it, at the core
of a healthy, uh, congregation,

(31:33):
there is a cohort of people
whose faithfulness is
overwhelmingly beautiful and
who really enriched my life
deeply. And, uh, many of them continue to be,
you know, friends, people I, I'm. Were able
to see. And, uh, and. And.

(31:53):
And sadly, now I've been retired for five years. I've
gone to too many funerals of. Of. Of folks
who were. Yeah, but that's life. We're only
here for a short time.

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I
think that you've named a few things here, but like, are there
any other ingredients that you would just
want to name that
help toward happiness
and fruitfulness in ministry? Because you're right, like,
the challenges are real. Um,

(32:25):
the grace is real, but the challenges are
significant. Um, the hurt and the
heartbreak that goes along with
so many aspects of ministry that
can be, um, significant. So
like anything else, you just want to.

It's hard right now, I think,
as the future, you know,
as we move into the future with the
decline, the precipitous decline
of institutional, uh,
Christianity, certainly right across North
America and Western Europe. It's different
experience in Asia, different experience on the African continent,

(33:04):
obviously. But,
um, with. With some exceptions,
um, my heart goes out to clergy who are
working these days.
Um, especially post pandemic, it's been really hard
to. To get back,
um. Uh, and
the stresses that that, uh,

(33:27):
brings out around finance. How do you
finance the institution, how do you care for
aging buildings? I mean, all of those things.
I are very
familiar issues, uh, from my own
practice of ministry. I guess the one thing, Martha, I'd say.
And I think you're doing it really well at St. Geor, and I see so many other
places that are doing it. And, uh, I'll

(33:50):
say it in an outrageous, provocative way. I don't think you can
spend too much money on the music
program.
M. Um. Yeah,
I mean, I facetiously used to say,
uh, about my time at the cathedral, you know, to
the. To my clergy team. And, uh, I was fortunate to work with

(34:10):
some first rate clergy over 25 years
and we're always three or four of
us, we think they're coming for our
sermons, they're coming for the music.
Because. And I think it's profound because I think
music speaks to a whole
other level of

(34:30):
consciousness than our didactic sermons
do. Right.

Yeah.

And when you look at the mega churches,
what they call worship, you know, if,
when I go to uh, a mega
church, that is usually about 15
minutes of singing,
that's the worship part and then there's the message and
then there's the commitment part. I mean,
um,

(34:56):
so uh, I
despair often when
I'm in churches at just
how bad the music is and I don't think
that's going to help us a bit. I, and it's, you know,
we're my, my background in
musical theater as well. I mean you can put on a great show,
but if the music sucks in a musical.

It'S um. Yeah, you're not gonna.

And for Anglicans anyway,
for Anglicans anyway, I think really for all
Christians, Sunday, uh, morning is musical
theater. The liturgy is musical
theater. Um, you know,
uh, you're, you break into song all of
a sudden in a great moment. You know, people say that
never happens. Well, in my life it happens. I sing

(35:47):
all. And it does at church. Yeah, we got
costumes on, there's a script. Particularly
in more formal traditions like Anglican. Um,
there's solos, you know, there's
quartets and there's a plot
and there's so.
And I think people respond to that when

(36:08):
it's when, when the musical theater, when
the music is of high.
The best we could offer, you know.
The best we can offer.

Mhm. Well, and you know, to
go back to like an earlier point of yours,
which is blaming progressive
values for the decline of the
institutional church. I mean
I think that there's a, a much
stronger case to be made for secularism
being the root of the

(36:40):
decline of the institutional church and that,
you know, people have trouble connecting
to the transcendent. Well, music
is one of the most intuitive and
immediate ways to,
to allow
that connection. Right. To invite people
into that connection. So

(37:01):
yeah, you can't spend too much money on the music
program. Um, I can hear our,
the musical leaders in our audience
applauding. Well, you look at uh,
you look.

At the enormous popularity of Taylor Swift, for
example.

Um, don't get me started about Taylor Swift
because I have a lot of.

Well, I do too. I mean
her concerts are
religious events in a whole.
And, and the music, I
mean people Sing along.
Um, they know all the songs, they know
the script. Um, and

(37:43):
on it goes with. With pop music and, uh.
Ah. Um, and I'm not saying
we have to, you know, have to bring pop music into the church alone. I
think it's a bad idea. Um,
but people's musical tastes
are actually quite sophisticated in this postmodern
era. And when they come to,
you know, a church that. That struggles through some

(38:06):
19th century Victorian, uh,
hymns badly. I happen to like a lot of 19th
century Victorian hymns. I'm that kind of dweeb. Church
dweeb. But, um,
I mean, no wonder they stay away in droves. It's. It just.
It. It's bad.

Yeah, yeah,
absolutely. Okay, well, we're gonna circle
back to musical, um, theater in
a little bit. But I do want to talk about clergy
coaching because you offer, um, some
coaching now, and I'm going to just,
uh, give a bit of a preamble here because I think that
it's helpful for our listeners to know that I

(38:44):
came to you for clergy coaching
in 2021, right in the thick of the
pandemic a few years ago now.
Yeah, Um, I think for me there were a
few reasons why I felt, uh,
like this would be a helpful step
forward for me in ministry. Um,
Covid got me, to be honest,

(39:06):
about some things that maybe I wasn't,
uh, being completely real about,
including some struggle with
burnout. Um, there was also just
something about all that, like distance,
enforced distance of COVID
that highlighted problems in our
organizational structure, communication, that kind

(39:28):
of thing that had been easier to
just overlook or ignore
when we were seeing each other
all the time. And that became quite
problematic when,
um, when we weren't
in the same building.
Um, I think that there were

(39:48):
two pieces around
our time together in that coaching
relationship that made the biggest
difference to me in my leadership capacity.
The first was just very basically the
I've been there too dynamic.
Um, that you are
somebody who can speak out of your own

(40:11):
experience of leadership. You're not candy
coating anything. Um, I
felt like my struggles were
normalized. I felt like
there were things that I could open up and
name because I
didn't feel as isolated in those
struggles. Um, so that was just

(40:34):
a really big piece of the
coaching journey. But then there was
also very much, um,
some concrete and doable
advice that you were able to offer me from a
different perspective, different lens,
um, more experience. There were just some
small steps and simple adjustments that

(40:55):
really did make a difference in helping
things to be better. So
my first question, after all of that
pretty is
um, what made you want
to get into coaching when you retired from full time,
right?

Um,
well I guess two things. One is
retirement. I mean and that could be a whole podcast
on its own because it's a huge issue.
And the baby boom, we're all retiring around the same time.
So retirement doesn't mean you stop living or stop
ministering. And I kind of knew what I didn't want to

(41:32):
do. I didn't want to do like long term interims filling in.
I do a little bit of that but um, not
a lot. Um,
and I've always been
interested in clergy development,
um, partly working with so many curates and associates
over the years. Um, and as
dean uh, in the diocese I, I had a fair

(41:54):
bit to do with, with clergy appointments and all that sort of stuff.
So curious about that.
Um, and I, you
know, like I enjoyed uh, sitting in the homes of
elderly people drinking tea and hearing about their lives.
One of the things I did a lot at the cathedral, which I didn't think I
was going to do, um, was being in

(42:15):
my office available to people
who, and I thought you
know, well, what do I like to do? I like, I
like listening to people. I'm, I, I'm
fascinated with human beings and what makes them tick.
And I had been helped
um, at various levels,
various periods over

(42:36):
my uh, ministry with
coaches, therapists, that sort of things.
I could do that. So uh, did
a little deep dive into how you do that and got
trained, uh, did training with the Neuro
Leadership Institute out of New York who
were really fascinating. They put together kind of brain science

(42:57):
and good coaching, um, and got
accredited and all that sort of stuff that took a couple
years to do all of that. I had to sit an exam, a
three hour exam. My God.
I um, know I hadn't had an exam for like
45 years, almost 50 years I hadn't sat
in an exam. And then you have your, your

(43:17):
uh, coaching, you
record sessions and
analyze uh, them and that sort of stuff. So, so did
all of that and found I was, I
looked forward like when I would, when your name would pop
up in my calendar that oh, I get to spend an hour with
Martha Tarnick and we're not going to

(43:38):
bullshit, we don't have to talk about the weather or that sort of
stuff. We're going to get right into
what's going on in her life and ministry,
uh, and focus and,
and, and, and, and take some positive steps
forward. So in retirement
it seems to me it's important not to just do

(43:59):
nothing. I didn't want to do nothing. I want to do
something. And I found this really. And continue
to find this absolutely enlivening
and energizing and educational. I
learned so much from my, my coaching
clients all the time.

Well, that's probably what makes you a good coach, is that, uh,
willingness to not
just offer your own expertise, but also to,
uh, to be a fellow
traveler, a fellow student.

Yeah.

Yeah.
So I feel like we've
kind of touched on this a little bit. But
what would you say are, like the common pressure
points across ministry as you
listen to people like me?

Yeah, well. And you are in a
unique and privileged situation where
you have a large congregation
of, uh, clergy colleagues that
work with you. Uh, diverse.
A lot of my clients are,
um, in small,
struggling congregations.

(45:09):
Um, they are the only, the only
priest there.
Um, and it's lonely.
It's just lonely. Right. And
it's, um. Uh. So I
think one of the pressure. One of the things that makes coaching
valuable for folks is the opportunity to
have a, uh, serious, full and frank conversation

(45:31):
with somebody about exactly what's going on. Be
heard, be seen,
um, and to think through what you
want. The other is,
and I sure know this, um, from my
own experience,
people, People have no
idea. Like, I think

(45:54):
I love laypeople and we've, we've talked
about how wonderful they are. I
don't think a lot of members of a
congregation know what is really involved in
being a parish priest. They
think. I think they think it's really about
Sundays, you know, and writing a sermon
and, you know, that must take so much time. Well,

(46:16):
holy cow. You know, I know. I think the clergy who are
listening know, um, yeah, you
spend a fair bit of time, the sermon is always with you. That's
not the, that. That's the fun part of the job,
you know, that's where you get to be a theologian, biblical
interpreter, cultural interpreter, all that sort of
stuff that. I mean, I love that part.

(46:36):
It was all the. It's the budgets, it's the
building, it's the conflicts that happen
inevitably in human community.
Uh, it's your own self doubt. It's imposter
syndrome. It's all of that
stuff that pops up. And here's my
point. It's really
easy to lose focus on.

(46:57):
So what is it that I'm wanting to have
happen here? What's my goal? What's my
vision for the work? Yeah.

Yeah.

So what people, what the feedback I
get from my coaching clients is,
um, and you went through the process as well. That
whole first process of identifying
3.3goals to kind of
focus on. Uh, I
had one client who said, you know, if you had done nothing

(47:27):
else with me, but that that was worth
it because it focused my mind. Okay, so
I've got, like, these three buckets of things that I'm working at.
Here's my vision of where we could
go. And then helps me think
through the planning steps
and navigate the inevitable, uh,

(47:47):
twists and turns in the journey to get there.
Um, and I think it's lacking
nobody else, uh, just speaking within the Anglican
system. I know people listening come from other
systems, but the church
beyond the parish. There's not a lot of help
for clergy, particularly who are on their
own in ministry settings to

(48:10):
say, you know, okay, I know you want to
serve the congregation. What is it? What's your vision
of where this congregation fair should be
going? And. And how do you imagine getting
there?

So, yeah, and that
agency part is, like, really easy to lose track
of. It is so easy just to become
somebody who reacts and who is
just sort of constantly responding to the things
that come up. Right. Um, it's.
It is difficult often when

(48:42):
you're in the thick of things, to be able to take a step back
and say, okay, like, what.
What am I discerning? My choices are here?
Like, what am I bringing to the table?

Yeah, yeah, there's a little diagram. I probably shared it with you
when we were doing our coaching journey from the, uh, Neuro
Leadership Institute from NLI that has,
uh, these five things in order.
Vision, planning, detail, problem, and drama.
And most of the
time, for clergy, we begin with

(49:15):
the drama.
Right. Somebody is not speaking to somebody
else or, you know, somebody didn't lock the church
or name your drama. They just, every
day, bloody dramas in the congregation.
And so, you know, what most of us are trained to do?
I got a drama. So you bring people together, you sit down and say,

(49:35):
well, we've had this drama. There's got to be a problem here. Let's
start it. Uh, how can we fix the problem?
And then you get into some detail about what the problem
is. And, okay, so that's what the problem is. So what
are we going to do differently? And so you can develop a
plan. And often in the midst of all that, someone will
say, but what is it we're trying to do in the first place? The
vision, in other words. So m.

(49:58):
Starting with vision. What is it we want to
do? What's the plan? Okay, let's
detail that out. Then moving toward
it. There's going to be problems along and drama. We can
deal with those and we can keep going back to the
vision. So.

Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I think that's extremely um, helpful. I have
to admit, like when I first signed up
for our coaching contract together, it was
a little, I was a little
worried that it m.
Was gonna feel too big, you know,

(50:34):
like that we would start kind of digging into
organizational structure and start digging
into things that needed to be
improved or whatever and that I
would end up feeling paralyzed
by how much needed to
change. Um, and you know, I think that that can

(50:54):
be like a, a reason why people fear
change, to be honest. Because
like, like what if it's
just too much? What if it's like
everything? I feel like you
were great about being able
to identify each time that we
met like one or two

(51:16):
bite sized concrete
actionables.

Right.

Um, and you know, maybe this is
wishful thinking, um, for our
listeners. We usually don't
subscribe uh, to the idea that there's actually magic
bullets in ministry, but are there any
like just
little tweaks

(51:42):
that sort of generally work for
people, um,
across the people that you talk to?
Like are there one or two, like just kind
of bite sized
changes that tend to make a big difference?

I mean we've all gotten used to the Ed Friedman phrase
about non anxious presence. That that's what
good leadership involves.
Um, and I, I think sometimes in
ministry it felt to me like
everybody was trying to get me anxious about something else.
You know, um, there's not enough, you know, you're not
spending enough money on the building. And uh, why aren't

(52:20):
we doing more about the poor people who are coming to our door
and uh, et
cetera, et cetera and sort of. So I
think a key is breathing,
like not inhaling
all of uh, all of the anxiety
that is kind of the energy. I mean anxiety is

(52:40):
one way to look at it, institutional, uh, anxiety. The other
is that's part of where the energy is bubbling up firm
and uh, yeah. Taking a deep
breath and
remembering focus and goals
and then treating people,
giving people some space but also

(53:01):
calling if that's what you're
getting.

Mhm.

And then loving the people. I mean I think that's the other.
And most clergy, uh, there are some clergy who genuinely
don't like people and I wonder what the hell they're doing in the job.
Um, because it's people oriented. It's a people
oriented business. Uh,
but yeah, finding ways to love
them. That

(53:29):
sounds facile. I don't mean it to be.

Oh no, I don't think so.
Um, I think people will connect
to those two pieces and obviously
to do a, uh, coaching,
um, contract with
you or with somebody does get into
the particulars of the ministry context.
But I think that those are just a few broad

(53:55):
brushstrokes that sort of
are good reminders, you know. Love and
breathing.

Love and breathing. Yeah. That
sounds like a title of a book, doesn't it?

It sounds like kind of maybe
that. Maybe that's something you should think about,
Peter. Love and breathing.
Okay, let's, um, close
with some, um, conversation about
this fun project that you're working
on right now. A podcast
with Nathan, uh, Larude, the

(54:29):
Gospel of Musical Theater. I think that we
can both say that we're people
who, uh, get a lot out of musical
theater. I grew up on a steady diet of musical
theater.

We'll have to have you on our podcast.

A huge part. Yeah, Yeah, I
have thoughts. Um,
uh, it was definitely a
big, big part of my formation. So
you've said that, uh, it's pretty important to
you and your life and
spirituality. Music in general, musical theater
specifically. What, uh, what do

(55:05):
people need to know about the Gospel of Musical
Theater in this fun podcast?

Wow. So,
um, a
while ago, about
maybe 10 years ago, I guess now, we. When
we got a new car, it had satellite radio in it. And I became
a subscriber to satellite radio and began to listen to.
There's a Broadway channel on satellite
radio. It's all Broadway all the time. When I first started

(55:33):
listening to it, every Monday was Merman Monday. It was all Ethel
Merman all the time. And it
helped me.

That sounds like a lot.

Oh, you can't have too much. Do you know that Ethel Merman was an
Episcopalian? She, uh, went to
church every Sunday at St. Bart's Fifth
Avenue, ah, Park Avenue in New York, and sang
the hymns. Uh,
so it was kind of the,
uh, releasing of my inner musical theater
queen, really. Um,

(56:02):
um. And I began
to listen more and more when I was
driving or that sort of stuff, uh,
to the golden age of Broadway shows and also
new shows. And I just realized I really love this stuff and was
invited to teach a course at conference, uh, center, the
Sorrento center, which, you know, in the BC's
interior. And I taught there a lot. Taught course on the

(56:25):
Gospel of John and the Eucharist and, And Rene
Girard and all that sort of stuff. And they said, what do you want to do?
And I was kind of. We were actually in Hawaii and I
thought, ah, uh, what
if what if you looked at musical theater
as, uh, a
way for the gospel to be interpreted? Uh,

(56:48):
and so my mind started going that way. Um,
Nathan, who's the dean of the cathedral in Detroit, was
coming. I, uh, invited him to preach at the
cathedral here in Vancouver. Met him at the airport. We went
out for lunch and caught up on news. He said, what are you
doing? And still one of the things I'm doing is sort of thinking about this course
called the Gospel Musical Theater. I don't know what I'm going to do.
Um, but he said, oh. Then we went out for dinner

(57:11):
and we ordered drinks. And he said, what shows
are you thinking of covering? And I
said, well, of course we'd begin with Rogers and Hammerstein, probably
Oklahoma, and work our way through
that. Began a conversation that was
2019 that we haven't
stopped having. He ended up co teaching
the course with me at Sorrento. He's

(57:33):
also a musical theater queen. In fact, the
tagline of gospel musical theater is cathedral
deans and musical theater queens, Nathan
Larude and Peter Elliott. So we
are very out as queer gay
men, uh, who
love musical theater. And,
um, so we take a

(57:54):
show like, we've just done
this a number of times. Uh, we've
seven seasons of our podcast
are available anywhere you get your podcast, gospel, uh,
musical theater. Um, take a show
like My Fair lady, um,
and begin to tease
apart what's going on there

(58:17):
and look at the gender politics of it.
Um, look at where gospel comes,
the transformation of Eliza.
Um, uh, but also
what a horrible, horrible, horrible person Henry
Higgins is.
Um, the first time we taught at
Sorrento, we

(58:39):
trashed, uh, My Fair lady in terms of its gender
politics. And there was this lovely
woman, uh, from the interior who was sitting in the front row and hanging
on her every word. And she burst into tears. She said,
I love that show, and you guys have just wrecked
it for me. But we look at Oklahoma, for
example, which has to do. There's

(58:59):
not an indigenous person in the musical
Oklahoma yet. Oklahoma was where all
the indigenous, many indigenous tribes,
nations, uh, were put.
Uh, it's, it's a peon to
statehood and really to white
supremacy. Um, we
look at South Pacific and its,

(59:21):
uh, absolute clarity about,
uh, the need to end racial discrimination. We look at the
king and I and talk about colonialism.
Um, so Nathan and I
began this conversation, which we continue to have.
Um, in the pandemic. We offered the course
at Sorrento just before the pandemic at Sorrento.

(59:43):
Then in summer school at Vst and then George
Floyd, the George Floyd Black Lives
Matter thing that happened. And Nathan called
and said we need to do another version
of this called Gospel Musical Theater Race and
Redemption. So we taught that
at Vancouver, uh, School of Theology
and at Trinity Cathedral in Portland and at

(01:00:05):
Sorrento Center. And that's become part uh,
of the uh, part of the
analysis that we bring to
musical uh, theater. So it's gospel but you
know, like Frederick Buechner says, the gospel has to be bad news before
it's good news. So we also look at
the way musical theater

(01:00:25):
reveals the
injustices and oppressions
of our time and how gospel can speak into
that.

>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:35):
Wow. Wow. So we can
find uh, all seven seasons wherever we get
our podcasts. That sounds fantastic.
I do have to just say so we did
Oklahoma, um, in my high
school and we had such a forward thinking
drama teacher that she actually found a
way of like

(01:00:57):
incorporating
um, kind of an introduction
to the musical that framed the
indigenous reality of
um, and that was in the 90s in like rural
Ontario. I just like Nancy
Lilliman. I'm not sure where she is now
but she deserves real props

(01:01:19):
for um, finding a way of highlighting
that in rural Ontario.

>> Peter Elliott (01:01:24):
Bless her heart musical. It gave me
goosebumps when you're talking about it. I mean I think one thing Nathan and I
say is we approach uh,
uh, a uh, show like in Oklahoma
or My Fair lady or whatever, um, or you're
in Town or Hamilton or the Barbie movie
even as we would approach, as preachers would
approach, a biblical text. Right,

(01:01:47):
yeah, it's a text, it's there. It
has a particular origin but its
interpretation is always evolving
and it provides the opportunity
for commentary, um,
ah, for thoughtful reflection.
Um. And so

(01:02:07):
we use our skills as
exegetes, people who do
exegesis. We exegete the
text and particularly the songs of
a uh, uh, of a, of a
show. Um, and so like
Oklahoma, there's been. There was a recent revival
uh, on Broadway that Ebbs

(01:02:29):
did what your teacher did in high
school, um, and
really played up the whole notion of gun
violence. Um, so that
the, the uh,
conclusion uh, of Oklahoma. I
mean it's such a weird show in so
many ways, but at the heart of it,

(01:02:51):
this
Judd figure, right, this
outsider who
is, you know, scapegoated
by the community. All of the
sexuality that is kind of
hidden over gets focused on
Judd. It's a fight at the

(01:03:12):
end. It's a knife wound or is it a
gun wound? You know, um.
And so the set of this
reinterpretation of Oklahoma is the
back of the stage is filled with guns,
and at the, uh,
finale, the cast comes out covered in
blood.

(01:03:33):
Right. So all of a sudden, Oklahoma goes from being this
sunny thing. I mean, when you're curly,
when you're a blonde haired, blue eyed,
hunky cowboy, uh,
everything's going your way. You're a
boy in the west.

Oh, what a beautiful.

Everything's going my way.
Yeah. On it goes.

Um, okay,
well, that is definitely something that,
uh, I want to check out as soon as possible and I hope
our listeners well as well.
Um, we're going to take a quick break and come back
for some closing rapid fire questions.
So, uh, stick with us and

(01:04:16):
we'll close it in a few minutes.
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast.
I continue to be here with Peter Elliott,
and we're going to close our show with
some rapid fire questions. So, Peter,
ready? Now, we always
do tell our guests that you can take these as

(01:04:39):
seriously or not as you
want. Okay? So no pressure,
but if you were Pope for a day, what would
that day?

Well, if I were Pope of the Roman Catholic Church,
the only Pope. Uh, well, let's talk about him. There are other
popes. Uh, I would ordain women.
Um, I would let clergy get married. And
I would make a statement that affirms
the presence in the church, the gifts and
skills of lesbian, gay, transgender and

(01:05:09):
bisexual members of the body
of Christ.
Okay.

M. So that sounds like a full and
productive first day. You're not going to wait 10
years.

Just do it right away. Pope can do it.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
What theologian or
historical Christian figure would you want to
meet? Bring back to life, have supper
with, grab a beer with.

So I'm a Gospel of John geek.
Um, like, complete nerd.
I would like to meet the
author or the group
of authors who pull together
this remarkable, weird text
that finds its way into our New Testaments

(01:05:57):
and is read reverently in churches around the
world.

That's a good answer. Okay,
um, just, I have to say, as an aside,
I had Elizabeth Schrader, Polczer, on the
ah podcast earlier this summer, talking
about her pretty groundbreaking research into the
Gospel of John.

And I still like Martha, even if Martha is really
Mary.

I agree.

Cause what a name.

Wholeheartedly, I know.
Exactly. Exactly.
Okay. What will history remember from our current time
and place? Huh?

Um, I'm hoping
history will remember. This was a time in
history when the United States of America
elected the first
African American, South Asian woman
as President of the United States. That's my hope.

Oh, uh, my gosh. Okay. So I just got some
chills listening to you say that, because by the
time this podcast airs, will know
it's.

I know, right?

So, like, the people who are listening to
this podcast in the future,
like, they will know whether that's. That hope
came to fruition or not.

I preached. I preached on this past Sunday, which was
just after the Democratic Convention. And
the first two sentences of my sermon were pretty much what
I said about the hope that I feel
seeing, uh, around gender, around race,
around all sorts of things, around progressive values.
Just two sentences at the beginning of the sermon. And then I preached

(01:07:35):
for 20 minutes on the John 6,
ending, uh, the discourse of bread, of life.
So the warden got an irate letter saying,
how dare Elliot use the
pulpit for politics and
he should apologize to the whole Church of
England because this woman wants to cancel
Christmas. And the warden, I'm just filling in this

(01:07:58):
church wrote and said, what should I do with this? And I said,
absolutely nothing.

Yeah, I think that's fair advice.
She wants to cancel Christmas. Oh,
goodness. What
are your hopes for the future of Christianity?

You know,
I'm part of a commission that,
uh, in. In the Anglican Church of
Canada looking at the future. And we were,
uh, there's about 10 of us. I'm the old guy on it.
Most everybody is a generation or so younger than
me. Um, and we were meeting in
Montreal, went to the cathedral for

(01:08:41):
a noonday Eucharist, and
there were like 15 people
there in this big building. And we came
back after him. We're reflecting on that and thought
that's kind of a symbol of where the church is. You
know, small gathered communities
in spaces that are too big for
us. And one of our members said, you

(01:09:04):
know, you put 15 people in
a old cathedral and it
feels empty. Bring 15 people around
my dining room table and it's a crowd.

Yeah.

And that's my. I think the future of Christianity is.
I don't know who am I? But,
um, there's always going to be ways for followers
of Jesus to meet around a table
with, uh, the scriptures, a cup of
wine and a plate of bread, and say their
prayers and tell the story
and remember that Christ is with them and seek

(01:09:39):
to serve the world. That's my
hope for that's that. That's my hope is
that continues. And I believe that will continue. I have absolute
confidence that that'll continue. The
institutional forms may. Are going
to slide away, lots of them. I hope some are
retained because I love the aesthetic. I love it speaks
to me um, but there's always going to be

(01:10:02):
Christians who meet around bread, wine and
scripture and want to serve the world.

Yeah, yeah, that sounds
hopeful and um, like
something beyond optimistic. It sounds
like we can really trust
in that. Uh,
where can people find more about Peter?

I've been meaning to get a website up forever and I haven't.
If you Google Peter Elliot Priest, you'll find a Wikipedia
page and there'll probably be lots of links
to sermons and things I've written in the
Anglican Journal and articles here and
there. Or you can just go to the.

Podcast, like,
Yep, go to the podcast. What about
coaching?

Like, no, I don't have a website. I don't have anything like
that. Contact, um, Martha and
Martha can give you. If people contact you through this
podcast, you can give them my contact information.
I, I, I, I
started to develop a website and
I, I ran out of time because I was getting so
many coaching clients. And then so all

(01:11:11):
my referrals are word of mouth and
um, okay, send me an
email.

All right, well, you heard it here on this podcast. Word of
Mouth continues. Thank
you so much for your time today, Peter. Thank you for this.
I think fairly wide reaching
conversation and lots, uh, of different
fun and insightful elements to it. I'm really
grateful for your time as always.

You're welcome.

We always end with, we always end with a
word of peace. So Peter, may the peace of God
be with you.

And you too, Martha. Thanks for the invitation. Always a joy to talk to
you.

>> Loren (01:11:54):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But

(01:12:16):
before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the
POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this
out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.

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