December 3, 2024 • 70 mins
In this episode, co-hosts Martha Tatarnic and Loren Richmond Jr. reflect on the past season and share personal insights from their ministry journeys. Martha opens up about the challenges of transitioning back to ministry after a focused writing sabbath, touching on key themes like clergy mental health, food insecurity, and economic pressures that have shaped the season’s conversations. Loren and Martha celebrate a major milestone—200 episodes—reflecting on the podcast’s beginnings as a COVID project and its growth into a valued resource for church leaders. They highlight standout episodes, discussing topics such as the evolving landscape of church leadership, the importance of diversity and inclusion, and the benefits of team ministry in building strong faith communities. Throughout the episode, Loren and Martha stress the podcast’s mission to provide companionship and support for those navigating the complexities of ministry.
Episodes Referenced:
Pastoral Health Roundtable: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/pastoral/
Elizabeth Schrader Polczer: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/elizabeth-schrader-polczer-on-rethinking-mary-magdalene-part-1/
Yolanda Solomon: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/solomon/
Chuck DeGroat: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/the-primal-wound/
Casey Tygrett: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/casey-tygrett-on-why-remembering-matters/
Grace Ji-Sun Kim: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/grace-ji-sun-kim-on-making-church-less-white/
Allison Milbank: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/alison-milbank-on-why-small-and-local-might-be-the-churchs-way-forward/
Presenting Sponsor:
Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world.
Supporting Sponsors:
Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!
Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:06):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source
for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:26):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate
member of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you
with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:42):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am,
um, your co host, Martha Tatarnic and I'm so
happy that today I get to be with your
regular host, Loren Richmond Jr. As
we do a little bit of a recap
of the past season and touch base with
one another. Loren, I feel like I'm in
conversation with you all week because,
(01:05):
you know, you're in my earbuds as I'm
listening to your Future Christian
episodes. Um, but it is really fun for
us to get some opportunity to set
aside an hour or so to chat with one another,
so.
>> Loren (01:19):
Absolutely.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:20):
Welcome to your own podcast, Loren.
>> Loren (01:22):
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:24):
Yeah, anytime. Um,
so I, I've been
reviewing all of the episodes
from this past season,
and, uh, I reached out to Loren before
we began recording today because I just felt really
compelled to get a little bit real
today with our listeners and just share
(01:47):
a bit with, um, with our
community about what the past three months have
been like for me. And,
um, you know, the reason why I want to
share this is not because
I need some woe is me time,
um, but because I think that there are
(02:07):
some, um, there are
some takeaways that I've been experiencing over the
past three months that have a lot to do with what we're
trying to do and offer here at Future
Christian. So, as, um, some of
our listeners might know, I
had, uh, this great experience of
(02:27):
being able to take September as a writing
Sabbath. And
I, um, worked really hard for the month of September. Like
every day I got up at 5am and I
worked almost nonstop until whatever
time of night.
Um, yeah, it
was definitely, uh, work, but it was such
(02:49):
a different kind of work from my
normal life because it was just this
pure passion project.
It was so focused. Right.
Like, so much of our, uh, work in
ministry is this crazy juggling act.
>> Loren (03:05):
Yes. Jack of all trades.
>> Martha Tatarnic (03:07):
Jack of all trades. Yeah. Juggling act.
And so I had this, like, very pure
experience of work for the month of
September. And
then I came back to the ministry
context in October and November.
And again, as many of our Listeners will know. And
(03:28):
you know, Loren, like, I
generally have had a very happy ministry and
I serve in a really great church
community. And yet
I kind of found myself,
um, teetering a little bit for the
past two months on the edge of depression
(03:48):
because there was just this,
um, like, stark
contrast between what
September had been like and then what faced
me when I came back in October.
So, you know, what faced me in October,
among all of the delightful things about ministry
were things like
(04:10):
serving a downtown church
where, uh,
like the precariousness of people's
lives is just getting more and more
extreme. Food insecurity and, and
lack of housing is getting more and more
extreme. And the winter months are coming
and people don't have anywhere to be, and they're sleeping
(04:32):
on our church property and they're
flooding our breakfast program. And
um, then there's just all of these
behaviors that go along with such precarious
living that, uh, we're facing every
day, uh, at St. George's security
concerns and security of our
(04:52):
guests who access those programs and our volunteers and all, all of
those things. So I mean, like, that's one pressure point. And
of course I came back to like, year end
and budgetary concerns and
um, like the
realities of like, the cost of living crisis
and inflation and
(05:13):
then how hard it is to
um, manage that in a church budget when all of
the costs are going up, but people's wallets
are feeling more and more pillaged.
>> Loren (05:25):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:26):
And then there's the pastoral realities.
And I came back to, you know, a few,
A few people in the congregation
who I have really,
um, like, looked to as
kind of my sources of wisdom in
ministry, um, suddenly
being in failing health.
(05:48):
And um, and
I'm trying to be their pastor,
but I'm also grieving because like,
it's. I feel the loss too.
Um, I came back to,
you know, just the ongoing realities
of serving the
(06:08):
mainline church and in the Anglican Church,
uh, globally. There's been kind of a
bunch of news stories about
the failures of the denomination and the
failures of church leadership. And you can just
feel that, like, anxiety all across
the system manifesting in some
very, um, difficult
(06:31):
ways as
systemically, you know, we try to navigate
decline. And then in the midst of all of that,
like, I also have a family and I'm a
mother, and I'm a mother of teenagers and
there's like a lot of emotional labor at home
as well. And um,
again, like, I'm not trying to say all of
(06:53):
this because I want a pity party.
Um, I think that these are really
normal pressure points
that like, that we face across
ministry. And I think why they hit me
so hard um, this
fall is because of the contrast
of being able to do such different kind of work
(07:16):
for 30 days. Yeah,
um, I've really
felt. And I can
give you a shout out here Loren,
um, because
I can say what I'm going to say without
sounding ah, like I'm bragging about myself.
(07:36):
Um, I have really found Future
Christian this fall to be
a pretty important touch point for me
in, especially in October and November as I've
been like trying to come back into
uh, like navigating those pressure
points. Um, because
(07:58):
every week when I put my earbuds in
and listen to the conversation that you've had with
one of our really amazing guests,
what um, I find I'm
getting are like two things that
I really need in particular. And these are kind of the
two themes that have really stuck out to me
(08:20):
across this season. So I
think the first theme is one that we
identify a lot in our conversations which
is around um, clergy mental
health. But you've had some really
good um, resources
offered this season in that department,
(08:40):
particularly in that intersection between
the scientific psychological community
and then how that impacts how we
understand the stories that we're navigating,
the trauma that we're living with, the
ways that um,
our pressure points can get triggered in
unhelpful ways the narratives that we might be
(09:03):
carrying in our bodies and in our memories.
So um, that those
like new resources into that
conversation I have just found extremely helpful
because uh, not only does it
offer resources but it normalizes I think, a
lot of the
um, stress that we can be carrying in
(09:26):
ministry and the struggle to stay well.
Honestly, like it can be a struggle to stay well. So
that's the first theme that I just really want to call
out. And um, and then the
other theme that I really see across our
guests this season is just
a lot of like really
well curated data like
(09:48):
from the ground, from people who have done
the research about what is actually happening
in our churches. And then like what we're
learning, like what we're learning from young people,
what we're learning from young people in specific
regions, what we're learning about
um, different kinds of communities across
(10:08):
our, across our Christian
landscape. Um,
and uh, for me anyway,
in the midst of all of the
swirling heartbreak and anxiety
that can be the mainline church, to get really
grounded
um, in information
(10:29):
about what's really happening. M.
And just have like really frank, honest
and ah,
um, like
conversation that comes with receipts you know,
like not just sort of
ideas but like we've actually done
(10:49):
the work and found out what's going
on. Um, that's been a real touchstone
for me. So all of that
is to say to our
listeners, um, I
hope that if you're feeling any of those same
stresses that I've named, I hope that you're
finding this to be a, ah,
(11:11):
safe community and
a ah, space that gives you
food for the journey. Because I certainly have been
finding it to be that. And then I just also
want to say thank you Loren, because
um, what you've started here
with Future Christian is uh,
(11:32):
just so essential.
>> Loren (11:34):
Yeah, thank you. And I certainly appreciate your
partnership. Thanks to listeners
and folks who have engaged.
Uh, this really has
become, you know, a
podcast really centered on, as
I say, an ecclesiology centered
podcast as I'm someone
(11:57):
who really believes in and cares about the church and
especially pastors. You know,
having worked in that space in the past
and hopefully again in the future at a point in
official capacity and having so many
friends and colleagues in that space, like Martha,
all those things you said,
(12:17):
A, holy smokes, that's a lot to step
back into. And B, like
I know all those points, if not
all the many of them are
impacting pastors and
church leaders, you know, the budgets, you know,
the. I mean I work right now in
(12:37):
a context where you work with low uh,
income and that can, you know, I think it can
be easy to kind of romanticize that kind of ministry
and like, oh, we're going to help these low income folks and
needy folks and then you kind of get working with them. You realize like,
hey, they're, they're complicated folks and
there's a lot of other stuff going on there that
(12:58):
complicates things. Mhm.
>> Martha Tatarnic (13:01):
No easy solutions.
Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Well, thank you for saying
that. And
um, yeah, I think
that at any given time many of
us are carrying around kind of a whole handful
of those kinds of stresses and then some. Right. Like,
(13:22):
right.
>> Loren (13:23):
Um, I, because
obviously, and I'll, I'm sorry, I'll, I'll say on
this too, like obviously the economy has
been, it's debated especially here in the States
about how bad it is, how bad it's not.
But I think like inflation, like that's a data
point. Right. Speaking of data points, that's a receipt
that we can speak to. Again, the arguments to
(13:45):
be made about whose fault it is or whatever, whatever.
But like that's a real thing. That is,
you uh, know, a real data point that is
Impacting. I mean, I just bought, uh, lunch day at the grocery
store. I'm like, how is mayonnaise 350 for mayonnaise?
Like, store brand mayonnaise.
>> Martha Tatarnic (14:03):
Yeah. Yeah. And so you're
simultaneously dealing with,
like, we're dealing with, you know, a 3%,
um, rise in all of our salaries at, um, the
church. But at the same time, we're
asking our congregation to give
more money that they don't have because of that
same, like, problem. Right.
(14:25):
So just, uh, it
can, can really take you in a
mind spiral for sure.
So, um, as I've,
as I've been gratefully
leaning, uh, into the future Christian,
um, this season,
(14:46):
not as the host primarily,
um, but just as one of the
listeners, um, we
have celebrated a pretty important
milestone. And so as we do this
recap, um, today, I really
thought, starting with that milestone,
um, that milestone episode
(15:08):
was important to
call out in a celebratory way,
which is that 200
episodes ago, Loren, you
were, um, just launching this whole
thing. And, uh,
you were a person with an idea
and a dream about,
(15:30):
um, what a podcast space
could look like and what kinds of needs it
could be addressing. And, you know,
200 episodes later, here we are. And,
uh, and I really believe that,
um, that we're
offering something really important
into the landscape of
(15:52):
church leadership. But I
wasn't part of starting it
up 200 episodes ago. I was.
I'm a late arrival. Um,
and I'd like to just
ask you again,
what was the initial spark
that got you into this?
>> Loren (16:15):
I mean, it was like many things, a Covid
project of feeling like, I mean, part of good.
Right. There was certainly this pressure on Covid to
produce more, even though there was
a crisis happening. So I think that was part of it.
And it was also, I think for me, like, if
this has not been obvious to folks,
(16:36):
I'm an enneagram5, so I love taking
information in. And
part of being healthy. Enneagram5 is sharing
information out there. So leaning into becoming an
eight, um, and you know, this podcast is one
of the ways that I get to do that. I think also,
like, a dream job for me would be a
(16:58):
academic, like a professor. Like, that ship has
probably sailed, at least
in the near future. That's not going to happen
realistically. But I'm in a space where,
I mean, I get to talk to again to name some
of our guests, like Dr. Elesha
Coffman and Dr. Uh,
(17:19):
Kristina Lazard Hashby. And,
you know, these, these like, wonky seminary
or seminary and academic
professors. Like, I get to have conversations with them, which,
you know, before podcasting existed would not. I don't
think it'd been a possibility. Like, I get some measure of being in
that kind of academic, nerdy space without
(17:39):
having a title or done, you know,
PhD doctoral work. So I think that's
really exciting for me. Um, and again,
like, obviously, like, we've. We've talked
about, like, this is stuff that we think and I
think is helpful. Um, so it's
like, I get to try to be helpful and also be a little
visionary, I think, as I try to think, like,
(18:01):
where do I at least think
church might be going? Where do I think leaders might be
struggling with? You know, how can that be helpful to them? And
then I'll just say this. Like, I just said this to someone this morning.
Like, podcasting is a lot of work. I don't know if
folks really understand how much work it is. And
I sort of, like, about every month or two, I'm just like, oh, can I just.
I should just quit.
(18:25):
It's just like, so much work. And I'm just like, oh, do I
really want to do this? And then, like, you know, I read a good book,
like your forthcoming, uh, guest, uh,
Jesse Zink. Right. Who Martha will have
on, and I'm just like, you know, I got
a. I got a new stack of books here that I'm looking forward to read and
going to reach out to some more contacts for
conversations, and that really keeps, uh, me
(18:48):
going.
>> Martha Tatarnic (18:49):
Okay. Yeah, I can
appreciate all of those things. Um,
you do say all the time that. That you're a church nerd,
so, yeah, it does seem
like a good space for that. And you're
right. Um, the labor behind the
scenes is, I think, way more
than I thought.
(19:10):
As somebody who
voraciously listens to podcasts,
I didn't quite, uh, understand how much work
goes into producing
podcasts. Um, how has
it evolved over the past couple of
years, the past 200 episodes?
>> Loren (19:29):
I mean, I think what comes to mind first,
just, like, I've somehow sustain this for, like, four
different jobs. It's probably
the most realistic challenge. And
hopefully, hopefully there'll be
a fifth job that I'll sustain this through, or maybe
even sixth, who knows? Um, I think that's
just like, the most obviously, technology
(19:52):
and resources, like
having you come on board, having.
Um, our
production guy right now is Alex Lang, Alexander Lang,
who Martha has had in a guest, and again, we'll
be having on again in a future
episode here shortly. So there's been
(20:13):
different people to kind of do the, some of the editing work,
which again helps just kind of manage the
overall labor. Um, I've
been fortunate to, for the podcast, receive some support
from Phillips Seminary, my alma mater. So shout
out to Philip Seminary and thank you for your support there.
And, uh, really just been. I mean, it really is a labor
(20:33):
of love, though. Um, it's. It's sort
of. It sort of is mind boggling to think 200
episodes because it's, it's a good bit of
work and conversations and I'm. I'm grateful. I've
had so many conversations with so many really
interesting people.
>> Martha Tatarnic (20:49):
Are there any that, uh, that stick
out particularly that you'd want
to just raise as like kind of dream
conversations for you?
>> Loren (21:01):
I mean, I think one that always comes to
mind immediately is. And it's funny, when I was at theology beer
camp like a month or two ago, like, I, uh, was
sitting, getting ready for like the start of the
opening session and like, literally, who sits right next to
me is Brian McLaren. Yeah,
he's, you know, certainly there's been a.
(21:22):
There's a lot of. All these folks have been very generous
in kind with their time. You know,
Brian always strikes me as someone who's very humble, very
generous, very kind, and I've really appreciate
that. Um, you know,
even beyond him though, certainly,
you know, the nerdy conversations are the ones
(21:42):
that I tend to appreciate the most. I think,
um, you know, I think of again,
Dr. Elesha Coffman. You know, I've
really try to lean into when
the opportunity arises to do in person
interviews. So, you know,
I've tried to do some like again, with Dr. Kristina
Lazardi Hashby, who's in my neck of
(22:04):
the woods. Megan Basel, who. We are kind of in the same
neck of the woods. So those have been really a lot of fun. Is
when opportunity arises to do something in person.
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:13):
Yeah. Yeah. I haven't had that opportunity
yet, but, uh, it no doubt changes
the dynamic.
>> Loren (22:20):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:21):
Quite significantly. Yeah. Well,
okay, so if people are looking for some
back catalog to go to, they should check
out, uh, a few of those people. Brian
McLaren, Megan,
Kristina.
>> Loren (22:35):
I'm going. Well, I have to look now and figure out what.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's.
I mean, I. It's like, it's like your children, like you love them all for
different reasons.
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:50):
Yeah, that's right.
>> Loren (22:53):
I mean, like, but again, like, this was
obviously not mine, but like, you know, year two
with, um. Who is it?
Elizabeth. Dr. Elizabeth Schrader.
>> Martha Tatarnic (23:03):
P. Yeah,
um, Schrader. Polczer
>> Loren (23:08):
Pulitzer, yeah. Like, again,
uh, really interesting stuff and
really, I think, uh, beneficial to the
podcast.
>> Martha Tatarnic (23:18):
Yeah, that re. Uh, look at,
um, Gospel of John and Mary Magdalene.
Um, she was definitely one of my
heroes that I got to interview. So, you know,
there's some moments where we get to be
really starstruck in this, ah, chair as
host.
>> Loren (23:37):
And I wanted to like, even highlight some of the
episodes from the summer too, of, you know, Allison
Milbank I thought was a great guest. Jason
Byassee obviously we
mentioned, um,
Elizabeth. Rob Hurkmans I thought was an interesting
episode. So, you know,
Martha and I are really fortunate to talk to some great folks
(23:59):
and I'm, I'm enjoying
it.
>> Martha Tatarnic (24:02):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, encourage
our listeners to re. Listen or go
and listen for the first time to some of those
previous, uh, episodes because,
you know, I think that they
continue to be timely. Right. Like,
we're in sort of a long conversation about
(24:24):
the future of the church. So if you go back a couple of years,
I don't think you're going to
listen, um, to stuff that sounds wildly out of date.
>> Loren (24:33):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (24:35):
So, um, for the 200th
episode, I think it was really fitting
a. That we got to be part
of that episode together.
>> Loren (24:45):
Yes.
>> Martha Tatarnic (24:45):
Um, we got to do a panel
discussion and I think that the
topic was really,
um, on point because it was
around clergy health. And, you know, I've already said
it in this conversation, we say it
a lot. But there's just
a big component of how the
(25:07):
conversations that we're having, um,
circle back to this.
So, um, so why
don't we just recap a little
bit of. Of that
milestone, uh, episode, Loren, and
you have a few clips, don't you, of that
(25:27):
episode.
>> Loren (25:28):
So I'm glad again you kind of made this point.
But I'll reinforce that. I think the roundtable
episode is. I think some of the ones that Martha and I
think I can speak for you on this behalf have really enjoyed
doing just to bring in different
perspectives, and I think this
was a really good one. So again, to tutor on horn
(25:49):
here. Go back and listen if you haven't already. You, uh,
know, I, I was,
um, intentional about bringing in Brian, who
comes from an evangelical background,
although that's kind of not true because I, I talked to him recently and
his. He grew up in an ABC American
Baptist church, which is technically a mainline church.
(26:10):
He certainly serves in the evangelical context
right now, but again, sort of has, uh,
some mainline elements to him. Um, and then of course
Kinsie, who primarily comes from a mainline
background, and of course both of us,
um, so really? Again, you,
Martha, will tease. This has an episode coming
(26:30):
out with Mike Casper, who, again, definitely an
evangelical voice. We really try to be intentional
about bringing in different voices
to bring different perspectives. And this is one of the things that I
really appreciate about, uh, that episode. But
let's do soothing. I can find it
here. Let's play some of this clip from
Kenzie Tate, because I think. Or let's
(26:52):
do. Let's do with this one. And then,
um, assuming
I can make this happen.
>> Kinsie Tate (26:59):
So we. We constantly kind of compare so that we can make sure that we
fit in and we belong. I mean, ultimately, it's about
belonging, that comparison. But when it
goes off course is when we feel
like I don't belong, like
what I'm doing isn't good enough. But, you know,
when we're in that stress response, um, and I feel like I'm
(27:19):
not producing. Is this about patriarchy? And I need to be
a certain way to be considered, like, powerful.
Is this about, um, I'm just
tired, and when I'm tired, I feel like I don't
do a good job. So it's. There's. It's so
complex. Um, and I think that's why
these conversations are important. And this is what I would really love for
clergy gatherings to be. You know, like,
(27:42):
we could talk about these things and really have some insight
and feel those emotions well up and have
a safe space to talk about it and maybe
hear from, you know, like, you heard from Martha. It's like, I'd never
thought about it that way. Like, that's so helpful. Gives
me a new level of insight to kind of integrate what it is that
I'm feeling so it doesn't come out sideways.
>> Loren (28:03):
I. Kenzie, uh, again, shout out. Kenzie, you better be
listening here. You know, I really appreciate her work.
Obviously ordained herself married to a
pastor. Um, pretty helpful for me.
So much good stuff there. What strikes you there?
>> Martha Tatarnic (28:17):
Yeah, I mean, I am struck
by just the perennial
problem of how
badly we do as clergy when we
gather together. Like, we
don't. We're not good at all about
making safe spaces. Like,
uh, unless your context is, like, wildly different
(28:39):
from mine, I don't think so. Yeah, like,
we just,
um. We just, like,
so easily
fall into the, like, bitch and
brag categories.
>> Loren (28:54):
And I, uh, Like, forgive me for cutting you off, but
I feel like you can also turn into this, like,
too much positive spinning or
shining the turd. It's like. It's like.
>> Martha Tatarnic (29:07):
Yeah, this false bravado.
>> Loren (29:09):
Well, it's like it's almost like, you know, to use
a topic you've brought up, like oh, the budget. We're
in budget crisis but we're gonna celebrate God's provision
and God's abundance.
It's like can something just suck? Can we just, you
know, uh, folks who, if you're not aware,
check out Martha's book. Because I, I do think about this
a lot. Martha, your point about ultrarealism. I don't know
(29:32):
if you want to explain that briefly.
>> Martha Tatarnic (29:34):
Yeah. Ah, so ultrarealism is a
term that I got um, from
endurance running. But it's
like a mental
strategy of uh,
pulling yourself away from our
tendencies of wishing that things were
different or worrying about what is going to come next and
(29:56):
actually get real about what's actually
happening. So um, like
name it and accept it and
embrace it. Um, but,
but like you've got to get to the it. Like
what's happening. None of this
sort of, yeah,
(30:17):
making um, things sound better than they
are or feeling like you,
you can't just say that things suck,
um, you know, like what's
happening and then what are we going to do about it?
>> Loren (30:31):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (30:31):
And to me
that's um, that's a much more
hopeful place than what
we sometimes do in clergy gatherings.
>> Loren (30:43):
So um, let me, let me play this clip from Brian
about and I want you to be thinking
about what does this look like? What's the equivalent in
like a mainline space? Let me play this and
you be thinking about that.
>> Brian Davis (30:56):
I still hear it every once in a while but you know.
It really.
Started to rise up kind of the mid um, early
2000s where it was like, you know, you'd be
in your pre service meeting or whatever
and someone, usually the lead pastor would say
something like okay everybody, like this may
(31:16):
be our one chance
ever speak the truth of the gospel to the people that
are sitting in these seats. So don't blow it.
Like.
How much pressure are you ah, putting on
ourselves? I
mean that just pardon my language but that just
reeked of to me from the beginning. Like
(31:39):
this is not the fact that
someone's personal salvation is entirely up to me and
how I perform from the stage.
I had to reject that right away. But there are so many who
haven't and still put all that pressure on
themselves. Um, to.
>> Loren (31:56):
Yeah. What do you think that looks like in mainline
context, I wonder?
>> Martha Tatarnic (32:01):
Yeah, um, I mean my mind
just initially goes to
our annual data reporting
and like maybe that's not
like uh. I'm sure it's not the only comparison.
But in our uh. So in our context
anyway, they're called vestry reports. And like
(32:23):
you have to run the data
from the year, like average number
of attendees and how many households you have.
And then there's like financial information and all of it
has to be like sent into the diocese
and, and then like the information that you
send in, um, on
(32:44):
a just like very
concrete way, it depends like
that affects your representation then in synods
and stuff like that. But just
I think the knots that
um, in the past I have like
gotten tied up in just.
Okay, did, did our annual or
(33:07):
did our average attendance go up this year or did it go down this
year? And like by how much did it go up? And,
and, and if it didn't go up then
like why didn't it go up? And, and
if it did go up then okay, maybe like
maybe we're doing something right and ah, like
just kind of all of that
um, pressure that we get
(33:30):
like downloaded onto
um, these numbers as if they tell
us something about
like whether or not we're
doing good ministry.
>> Loren (33:44):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (33:46):
I don't know. Like, do you kind of have a
parallel?
>> Loren (33:51):
I mean I think as I listen
to this, I think,
I think again this is getting philosophical. I think
this is the other side of the
coin of this. To use the Charles
Taylor stuff that Andy Root writes about of the secular age
where there's this, just this pressure on
(34:12):
humans because we don't really believe that
are in a God who can, you
know, move and act in a world that it's on us.
>> Martha Tatarnic (34:20):
Yeah.
>> Loren (34:21):
Uh, like, like Brian is saying, like the pressure
is like we've got to make this service so good
that it's compelling the people rather than trusting that the
Holy Spirit will move in people. And I think in mainline
progressive spaces it's like we've got to be
so activist and
you know, social justice because we can't
really trust that God is moving in
(34:44):
our communities.
>> Martha Tatarnic (34:46):
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's ah, an astute observation
too for sure.
I think like right across the
board, um,
I think all of us can relate to that,
uh, messiah complex, I would say. Enlarge.
(35:07):
I have.
>> Loren (35:08):
Sorry.
>> Martha Tatarnic (35:09):
That's okay. That messiah complex. Right. Like
we can just um, think that
it's up to us to save things.
>> Loren (35:18):
Well here, maybe let's play this clip here. That
actually started too soon because it's.
You talk about the benefits of team
ministry.
>> Martha Tatarnic (35:31):
I would say in large, I have
enjoyed a happy ministry. You know,
it hasn't always been easy and
I have had times of struggle. But by and large like
two decades of ministry have been
happy. And
the major thing that I credit to
that is that I have always worked
(35:54):
in a team. So I have
never felt like I
have to be the Jack of all trades. And I've
never felt particularly
lonely in ministry, which I think is,
you know, quite different from a lot of people's
experience. So I think that there is something
systemically that we could do with that
(36:16):
observation. And, and I think that the more that
we can think about how
we create teams of ministry, and
I don't mean just ordained
leaders, um, but you know,
teams of people whose
gifts complement one another and
who are, you know, deployed, uh,
(36:39):
equipped, resourced to be
able to share those gifts, to build
up the body of Christ in the place
where they're called. I think that really could be
a game changer.
>> Loren (36:53):
For context, I did edit
that, even that clip for social media's
sake. So if you want to hear Martha does speak
about like some systemic ideas again,
listen to episode 200. Um, I
also want to hear Martha because I was just talking about this with one of
my friends
because you know, he has kind of wisely
(37:16):
advised me like hey, the next
ministry job, like it can't just be all you,
like you, you just can't do it. I was like, well how does that
work with the fact that so many
churches can barely afford like one full time
person? And you kind of uh, you kind
of hint at it there about non clergy
type teams. And that's you know, one of the things he suggested too.
(37:38):
But like, let's talk about that for a minute. Like what do you think
about other. Because I'm um, I would
need someone who like again
I'm an introvert and
let uh, me defend introverts. Like we're not antisocial, we just
need to guard our social energy.
>> Martha Tatarnic (37:55):
Yep.
>> Loren (37:55):
You know, so like I can't just be up front
247 talking to people. So I would probably need someone who can
run some kind of interference.
What else do you think, Martha?
>> Martha Tatarnic (38:08):
Yeah, I mean I, first of
all, like I do think that
probably, and I have no crystal ball here,
but I would imagine that
in a lot of our denominations a sustainable
future is going to look like some ministry
centers out of which, um,
(38:29):
you know, smaller kind of
ministry, um, groupings
happen that aren't necessarily in church buildings. So.
>> Loren (38:39):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (38:39):
Um, so I do think
that there's got to be
um, a pretty big
upside to that in terms of
building those teams. Right. That I was talking
about. Um, and
yeah, like I, I think
(39:00):
I, my My
partner in crime here at St. George's Tom,
is an extrovert and I'm quite
introverted. And um, and that
is a nice interplay.
And um, there are
like parts of ministry that I
(39:21):
just like love and get really
fed by like communications
and um,
understanding the finances. I know that's not
what everybody would say, right?
>> Loren (39:35):
Seems counterintuitive, but yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (39:37):
And uh, like
he has other areas that like just
set him on fire. And
then like I would say that
there's stuff that neither one of us is that
good at, like property management. And
thankfully, like we have really good
people in our congregation who
(39:59):
are like excited by that file.
So um,
yeah, I think that uh,
like we all have to do a certain amount of ministry that drains
us. Right. But. But if you get to offset that
with some parts that just really
like top up your tank, like.
>> Loren (40:19):
Mhm.
>> Martha Tatarnic (40:20):
It. It's great.
>> Loren (40:23):
Yeah, that's.
>> Martha Tatarnic (40:24):
Sorry, go ahead.
>> Loren (40:25):
No, I was just thinking like that's so true. Like
any job is gonna have just suck factors
and trying to find a balance there. And I'm
like, I'm thinking about a couple
things I've heard about and ideas that
I've had related to that is, you know, like
the senior leader, the elite,
(40:45):
whatever title. If it's a
solo pastoral staff, like
I'm thinking this is hard because again,
costs and financial challenges be what they are. But
there might be a situation where like
if caught or if contexts
are what they may, you may need to take a
(41:06):
pay cut and then just hire someone to be.
Because like I'm telling you right now, if I was
working on a solo staff team, like I'd almost want to
just take a pay cut and hire someone, even if
it's part time, who could kind of be
that kind of like run interference for me. Be
like the extrovert.
>> Martha Tatarnic (41:25):
Yeah.
>> Loren (41:25):
M. Because I just, I can't be extroverted all the time. Like
I really enjoy it in context. Like I
really enjoy people, but I just find myself at the end of the day just like out
of gas.
>> Martha Tatarnic (41:35):
Yeah. Yeah.
Um, in the, in
St. George's and in the last couple places
I've served, part of our teams have been
complemented by retired clergy
who, you know, are now drawing a
pension and um,
don't want the like day in, day out
(41:57):
responsibilities, but still really want to
serve and contribute and have a lot of
awesome gifts to offer.
And that's a really neat way in which smaller
parishes, um,
can be resourced too because it
can be a real win win.
Um, when People
(42:20):
who have served in ministry get to
serve in ministry in a bit of a
different way without the.
The big pressures kind of all the
time. Um, but then
it. Yeah, it fills out that. That team
again, so that you're not just doing everything.
>> Loren (42:40):
And that's good, because what's the
saying, right. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
Like, I'm, um, being very disparaging of retired clergy,
but. No, you know,
perhaps this is unfair, but so many stories I hear
of retired clergy incarnation behaving
badly. So this is, I suppose, a good way to keep them.
(43:00):
Keep them close, keep them on and on.
Your. Under your thumb. That's not the right word. But, you know, keep
tabs on them.
>> Martha Tatarnic (43:07):
Yeah, I mean, I have. I've been very
lucky in only having amazing
retired clergy in my congregations, but
I have heard some stories as well. Yeah, there are
some stories out there. Um, I just
wanted to say one other thing about that clip,
because the other
(43:27):
piece that I was really thinking as we were listening to
it is that it does come back to what
we're sort of celebrating today, which
is future Christian and,
um, 200 episodes in
and what you've been able to create
here. Because I do think that,
um, this can be part
(43:50):
of how
clergy, uh, who are on the front lines, who are
in challenging ministry contexts,
who do sometimes feel alone, who do sometimes
feel under resourced, who do sometimes feel
like, um, they have to do it all
that, like, this can be
(44:10):
a community that,
um,
that helps to
resource and companion people in
ministry.
>> Loren (44:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (44:28):
So do you want to touch base
about a few other standout episodes
from this season, Loren?
>> Loren (44:35):
Yeah, why don't we do that? As I'm kind of looking through the
clips I have and let
me play. I can remember which one is which here.
Um, for
folks, go back and listen to the
episode with Chuck DeGroat. Um, one
of the things. I've been fortunate to have
(44:56):
a couple conversations with Chuck. Um, and I think one of
the things that I really appreciate about him
was a.
He really seemed to care about and understand pastors.
Um, but two, I think the way he
approaches this, I really
feel like, is a good,
(45:16):
um, approach. I'm trying to get
this clip to play. Let me see here.
You write that while some might contend that our core problem as
humans is that we think too highly of ourselves,
you say. I'd argue that most of us live with an
underlying sense of worthlessness, alienation,
and disillusionment. I mean, again,
(45:37):
as someone who grew up very conservative Christian,
that quote is Shocking, almost.
>> Brian Davis (45:42):
Yeah, yeah. And what we know
is that there are certainly people who think too highly of
themselves, but underneath that inevitably is shame.
>> Loren (45:51):
Yeah.
>> Brian Davis (45:52):
And we see this play out. You know, this is sort of
a psychological truism. I think it's a biblical one
too. There are a number of people now who
are saying even before Adam and Eve grasped for the
fruit, which you know, is sometimes theologized
as some sort of arrogant decision, you know, Adam and
Eve's pride, what they're wrestling with
(46:12):
are these questions that are raised by the
serpent. They're being gaslit by the way they're
being abused, you know, by the serpent
who is raising questions that send
them spiraling, like maybe we're not enough. Maybe
we're missing something which I call shame.
And so shame proceeds even the grasping of the fruit.
(46:32):
And so I think for, for all of us. And
you know, I've done some significant work on narcissism.
You know, the way we understand that psychologically is that you're not
born with narcissism. You don't wake up one day and choose to
become a narcissist. It's born out of a way
of coping. I'm going to become
grandiose. I become the bully because I
experienced abuse or I was bullied, or I was small, or I was
(46:55):
made to feel ashamed. And I never ever want to feel
that again.
>> Loren (47:01):
Obviously Chuck has some great insights there
and I think his insights on Genesis 3 really
were quite revolutionary for me.
Uh, I'm wondering, how did
that strike you? How does that episode strike you? Because I know for me it
was just really life giving to think about
that in a different context. To think,
(47:22):
you know, it's a way of like
reframing it where it's like, you know, I,
you know, in, in my tradition, disciples, Christ,
the term brokenness is used a lot, which I think
really resonates with and I might have mentioned
it in that episode. What really resonates with, I think what Chuck is trying to
(47:42):
say, or at least as I understand it, what, what comes to mind for you?
>> Martha Tatarnic (47:46):
Yeah, um, I
reached out to you about that episode because I found
it quite powerful in a lot of different
ways. Again, I just like really appreciate that
intersection between the,
the um, like scientific research and then
the ministry context. I didn't grow
up in a sin heavy tradition at
(48:09):
all. Like, that was not, um,
that kind of like overbearing, judgmental
God is not the God that I grew up
with. Um, but what I found,
what I found really powerful about that particular
Clip. Um, this. This
idea that, like, our
(48:29):
primary problem is not thinking too highly of
ourselves. Our primary problem is shame.
I, um, found it really helpful just in terms of
how I look differently
at people that I perceive to be
difficult personalities. You know,
like, um, when I
(48:49):
get frustrated by. By what
I perceive as someone's arrogance or
narcissism, um, um, to be able
to take a step back and wonder, okay, like,
what's the. What's the hurt beneath
this? Like, what is the.
What's the wound
underneath here? You had
(49:12):
another.
>> Loren (49:12):
Sorry, go ahead.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:13):
Oh, you had.
Go ahead.
>> Loren (49:18):
No, I was just gonna say. Let me say briefly, it really goes back to what Kinsie said about
kind of being aware of your own stuff so you can be
in a space to care for others.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:26):
Yeah, yeah, I think so. There was
another one of your guests this season who I
believe also talked about Genesis 3. Right.
Um, and they had like, this
redefinition of
sin. Do you remember who was it?
Yolanda Solomon.
>> Loren (49:45):
It could have been. It could have been.
Because,
uh. Yeah, because
I tied. I don't have a clip from.
I think it's. Yeah, I think she said it.
Yolanda. Hopefully I'm getting that right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:01):
Uh, yeah, I think so.
>> Loren (50:03):
Um, I don't have a clip from her episode, but I think I
immediately typed when I talked to her to Chuck's
book. I had not yet interviewed Chuck because she
also says in her thing, like
one of the key questions she
reads from Scripture is God
saying, where are you? And that's similarly
(50:23):
what Chuck wrote about in his book, which I thought was a
great, really powerful connection. And again, kind
of re. Reframes,
uh, in such a powerful way that Genesis 3 story of.
Rather than, as I heard it, kind of this guilt and
shaming, like, where are you?
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:39):
Yeah, yeah, like the finger wagging God,
like, stomping around Eden, like,
where are you?
>> Loren (50:47):
And I think fits with like, the story of, like,
obviously the prodigal son comes to mind is
another story of, um, what,
the 1 sheep versus the 99.
Finding the 1 sheep. This, ah,
imagery of God being a God who is like,
where are you humans? Where are you?
(51:08):
I'm not mad at you. Maybe I'm
disappointed or sad for you, but
where are you? I want to be in relationship with you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (51:16):
Yeah, I want you close. Where did you go? I want
you close. I mean, as I was listening to
Chuck talk, I was just picturing, you know,
when sometimes, like, you're in a conversation with a
friend and you can just see
them go somewhere else, like
mentally and like they
just, like something has
(51:38):
triggered them or like they've just gone somewhere else. And,
and it's that like, friendship question.
Like, okay, where did you go? Like, I want you
here. I want to, I want to have the.
I want to be in this relationship.
>> Loren (51:53):
Yeah, boy, that's good. And I think this,
you know, I try not to make this a super theology heavy
podcast because there's a million theology heavy
podcasts, but it does really highlight
the importance. Uh, and I try not to, I try
not to be like a theology hater, but I do want
to speak to and recognize the limits per
se. I guess it might be a kind of way of saying the limits of
(52:16):
some sort of theologies. Certainly when we think
about, you know, concepts of
like original sin and such, it really does
really shape and frame the narrative of
the contrast from what you're saying
of. To this really kind
of how dare you situation.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:36):
Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. It really
reframes it. I love that
as a question that God is
continually floating out to
us across the pages of scripture, like, okay,
where are you? I
want to be close.
>> Loren (52:57):
Well, there's so much good stuff here that I, we're running
a time and I don't know where else to go here.
Um,
I suppose. Let me play this one from
Casey Tigret, who,
hey, I really, really appreciated
his book in this conversation.
(53:20):
But uh, I think his point here
about. He talked about his family visiting,
going, um, blank on it. Um, the
famous chap church in St.
Louis.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:33):
Oh yeah, Notre Dame.
>> Loren (53:34):
Um, yeah, thank you. And this is before
the fire. And he mentions
like, for him it really brought back great
memories. But also he can imagine for folks
who have really painful memories how much it
reinforce these memories. So let me play this field
real quick.
>> Casey Tygrett (53:54):
Uh, in 2012, my family,
we went to Paris, France. And this was
before the,
um, Notre Dame
Cathedral had burned. And so we went to an evening
service and there
is this children's choir singing and all in French.
I had no idea what they were saying, but it was just beautiful.
(54:16):
And so sitting there just in, taking in all of this,
the sights, the smells, the sounds.
And I didn't know what they were saying, but there was this.
>> Loren (54:25):
There.
>> Casey Tygrett (54:25):
It was one of those moments. And I think people listening have had these too, where
you don't know what's going on. You just know that you're
like staring through the scrim between heaven and
earth, like you're experiencing something
divine. So I'm sitting here telling you the
story and I can, I
feel that, like I Feel that sense
of being in that. In that cathedral that now
(54:47):
is totally renovated and not
understanding any of the words, but just sensing that God was near. And
that's a memory that created a story for
me that God can be
in these places that we don't understand. However, if
somebody else who had a background, let's say they
had an experience of abuse within a,
(55:07):
uh, formal, like maybe a Roman Catholic
setting, and they walked into that same
cathedral, their experience of God
is going to be very different. So they bring
whatever brain, whatever story into that same
place.
>> Loren (55:24):
You know, when I'm listening to that, I'm thinking
of my episode with, um. I think
it's Grace Ji Sun Kim
who again talks about
the problem of whiteness
in just the ways that especially
white Christians have really
(55:45):
hurt folks of color. You know, there
really is this both and of. And
lot of that hand is bad.
You know, I think that's what
makes the work of pastors and church
leaders so difficult, as I'm
sure there's leaders
(56:05):
of color who are dealing with both sides of that,
right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:08):
Uh,
yeah, yeah. I think,
um, it's
like I serve in this
historic old church building
that's like, full of
the history of St. Catherine's and plaques on the wall
(56:29):
and stained glass. And we always talk
about how it feels like a thin space,
um, and that, like, you can
feel that generations have been
gathering here to pray and sing and
serve and all of those things. Like you feel it when you walk in.
But it is really important to be
(56:49):
attentive to what Casey names,
which is like, that is not everybody's narrative.
That's not, um, just
a universal experience.
And, um.
And. And I.
Maybe there's a piece too in that that just
reminds us to be really intentional
(57:11):
about what kind of spaces we are
creating and what.
How we're. How we are trying
to make these places of
welcome and inclusion and safety. And
I think we fail in lots of ways. And those
failures can sometimes be pretty epic.
(57:33):
Um, but it certainly highlights
that sacred responsibility for us.
>> Loren (57:39):
Yeah, it makes me think of an altease, an
episode I have coming
for January or at least
2025, with an author of this book,
Disabling Leadership. And him and his,
uh, co authors in the book really lean
into the importance of churches
creating inclusive spaces for folks of, you
(58:01):
know, different, uh, abilities.
And, uh, really pinpoint, especially in the
book, you know, some of the ways that our churches
unintentionally, you know, communicate
unwelcome in little ways. Like
in the book they talk about, I guess, I'm stealing the thunder of
the podcast, but in the book, they talk about, like,
um, getting a, like
(58:24):
you, you know, purchasing an old
kind of historic church building and being really
excited, but then the pastor being
real excited, but then getting feedback from those
who are in, in a, in a wheelchair or some kind of
mobility device. Like, hey, if we're going to keep the
sanctuary this way, like, I'm stuck sitting in one
position. You know, I'm stuck sitting at the back of
(58:47):
the sanctuary, for instance. Um,
um. So it really does take some
intentionality and humility. I,
I'm thinking to,
to continue that work of creating. Being
inclusive and welcoming.
>> Martha Tatarnic (59:03):
Yeah, inclusive and welcoming. And, and,
um, that does come up with
Dr. Dr. Kim. Right.
Um, and I think it came up with
Jeff Koos as well in terms of what young
people are looking for.
Like, that representation
(59:23):
piece, um, is very
linked to inclusion and welcoming
and what kind of stories get embedded in our
bodies and souls. And I keep thinking
about Dr. Kim's, you know,
naming, growing up with this, like,
Sunday school picture of a, uh, white Jesus
(59:43):
and how much that
kind of forms your idea that,
like, God isn't like me.
Um, and in, like,
how important it is to see women in
leadership, how important it is to see,
um, people of different races
(01:00:05):
and ethnicities in leadership, that all
of that is part of how we,
um, how we
are intentional about the story that we're
shaping.
>> Loren (01:00:18):
Let me just play this clip here since we're speaking about her
from, uh, Dr. Kim.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:23):
It's because we have a white male God,
and that allows white men to be
superior over others because they're closer
to God. Like, this reasoning makes
absolutely no sense, but that's a reasoning that
has been part of our Christian history
and it continues to stay with us. A
feminist, uh, theologian called Mary
(01:00:44):
Daly said if God is male, then
the male is God. It's this
intertwining and just kind of
this cycle of
perpetuation that one thing
reinforces the other. So the
maleness of God reinforces that, uh, men
are better. The whiteness of God
(01:01:05):
then says, hey, white people are better.
So it's a horrible, horrible
cycle that continues to be with us in
our churches today.
>> Loren (01:01:17):
Kind of goes back to what I was saying, you
know, about theology has implications,
right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:23):
Yep. Yeah.
And as I'm listening
to her, you know, there's
this, like, constant complaint
out there in the, in the
air these days about wokeness and
like, political correctness and, and getting
our language right. And people can be quite
(01:01:45):
disparaging, um, about
uh, that agenda. Right. But
what is missed
in those disparaging comments is that there are very
violent implications to the
problems that she's identifying. Right. Like there
are, there's violence associated with
(01:02:05):
men being superior over women. There's violence
associated with racism, there's viol violence
associated with white uh,
supremacy. Like these,
these aren't just like nice concepts. And let's
just get our words correct. This is
about like the dignity of
(01:02:26):
people.
>> Loren (01:02:27):
Yeah. You know. Yeah.
I say it this way again. Theology has implications and
I think it's important
as much, as
much as that can be
oversimplified. I don't know if that's the right way of saying it,
but can get lost. It's about
(01:02:49):
thinking through the implications of words
and language and practices.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:02:54):
Mhm.
>> Loren (01:02:55):
And it's a shame that
it's misinterpreted or misunderstood perhaps.
Let me play this clip because we've been talking
about him. I just uploaded, so hopefully this will work.
Um, Jeff Keuss talks
about again recommend this
because he had data like Martha mentioned earlier
(01:03:17):
in the episode, in this episode about uh,
folks, young adults interested in church. But
diversity was something he named as important for
folks. Let's. The
more diverse voices, the more diverse inputs. God is
that much bigger homogeneous communities show them a small
God, an easily manageable God. Um,
(01:03:37):
and the question for churches is.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:03:39):
Do you want to be following a.
>> Loren (01:03:40):
Big God or a small God? Yeah,
homogeny is a small God and diversity is a big God. It's
just that. I'll just leave it there.
Recommend uh, that folks because
Jeff was very. The data he had
was that folks are not
antagonistic per se of church. They see the value of
(01:04:01):
church, but they understand what church is and is not.
And like you said, homogenous communities
are not something they want to be part of.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:04:09):
Yeah, he talks about the on ramps and the
off ramps to being part
of church communities. And yeah, the big
encouragement is that young people are
spiritual. They're searching,
they're uh, they see the value
in churches by and large.
Um, but the on
(01:04:30):
ramps aren't always clear and
the off ramps, um,
can
uh, they
can sort of happen without us
knowing what
the issue is. That leave uh,
somebody feeling disenfranchised from our
(01:04:52):
churches.
>> Loren (01:04:54):
Well, many more episodes we could play
clips from.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:04:58):
Yeah, we could just do this all day. Loren, why don't we just
uh. Have you got like another three hours?
>> Loren (01:05:04):
I wish. I don't know if folks want to listen to us
for that long. I mean I would want to listen to us, but you
know, obviously biased. So
Martha always gives the appeal at the
beginning of the episode and, and when
I do the intro for her episodes, I repeat her
appeal. Please do listen or
obviously please do listen and subscribe. Uh,
(01:05:27):
do share this with a friend, especially if you're a leader
and know a church leader. It really does help.
Um, as Martha said, like, we really believe in
what we're, we're doing here. We believe in these conversations
and we want to get them to more people.
Yes, because I want to grow the podcast and we want to grow the podcast, but also
because we think they're helpful for people.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:05:47):
Mhm.
>> Loren (01:05:48):
Martha, what else?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:05:51):
Yeah, like we want to grow the,
that community of
companionship and resourcing in
of uh, a job that
can feel really complex and sometimes
lonely and um,
full of pressure points. So like, we
(01:06:12):
want this to be a place where not only are
we providing a lot of different perspectives
as we kind of create crowdsource, this thing
that we call the future of the church,
um, but also
that like we're hearing from our listeners. I think that's
my appeal that I would want to just keep putting out. Like
we'd love to hear from the people listening.
(01:06:34):
It's nice to know what resonates with you.
It's nice to know what it sparks for
you. Um, it's nice
to get um,
some ideas for future
episodes. So yeah, weigh in
and listen and share
(01:06:55):
and let's just continue
to really make this a landing point for all of
us in our ministry weeks where we know that we
can turn and hear some
real insight,
um, and feel like we have
a, ah, safe community where we're
(01:07:15):
figuring this out together.
>> Loren (01:07:17):
Yeah, and I think it goes back to kind of how you started this
conversation. You know, as you got
back in, you were, you know,
bombarded with these pressures
of budget and you know,
ministry day to day and
rising costs. Like this
is what this podcast, this is why this
(01:07:40):
podcast covers so many of these diverse topics because
we understand the diversity and
complexity of the job and of church ministry
today. That's why we try to bring on such diverse voices
and from different perspectives. And I, you
know, and again, this is why I say this is
like, it's not
just solely meant for church pastors. Like,
(01:08:04):
you know, if you want to share this with some of your church leaders, your lay leaders, like,
so to help them get a good perspective on
what your job is like and what the task
of ministry is like.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:08:13):
Yeah, I know a lot of like my congregants
listen to this and, and
it's not even just about recognizing,
like, what my job is. Like, it's about recognizing
that we're all, like, we all care
about our church together and we
all like, whether we're ordained or lay
(01:08:33):
people, like, we're all bringing our gifts to the table
in terms of how we shape the church.
So, yeah, by no means is it just for
people in ordained leadership. Like, it, uh,
it's for people who care about the church
that we're creating.
>> Loren (01:08:50):
Yeah. Well, let me just say one last thanks
to you, Martha. Thanks to our listeners. Thanks for.
Thanks for guests. You know, this, this show is
obviously an interview format and
really appreciate all the guests who have come on
not just this past season, but over the 200
episodes. So thank you. Thank, uh, you all
(01:09:10):
for being a part of this.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:09:13):
Yeah. Thank you.
>> Loren (01:09:15):
Shall we end this with a word of peace?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:09:17):
I think we should, Martha.
>> Loren (01:09:20):
May God's peace be with you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:09:22):
And also.
>> Loren Richmond (01:09:29):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But
(01:09:50):
before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to the
POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this
out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source
for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:26):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate
member of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you
with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:42):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am,
um, your co host, Martha Tatarnic and I'm so
happy that today I get to be with your
regular host, Loren Richmond Jr. As
we do a little bit of a recap
of the past season and touch base with
one another. Loren, I feel like I'm in
conversation with you all week because,
(01:05):
you know, you're in my earbuds as I'm
listening to your Future Christian
episodes. Um, but it is really fun for
us to get some opportunity to set
aside an hour or so to chat with one another,
so.
>> Loren (01:19):
Absolutely.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:20):
Welcome to your own podcast, Loren.
>> Loren (01:22):
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:24):
Yeah, anytime. Um,
so I, I've been
reviewing all of the episodes
from this past season,
and, uh, I reached out to Loren before
we began recording today because I just felt really
compelled to get a little bit real
today with our listeners and just share
(01:47):
a bit with, um, with our
community about what the past three months have
been like for me. And,
um, you know, the reason why I want to
share this is not because
I need some woe is me time,
um, but because I think that there are
(02:07):
some, um, there are
some takeaways that I've been experiencing over the
past three months that have a lot to do with what we're
trying to do and offer here at Future
Christian. So, as, um, some of
our listeners might know, I
had, uh, this great experience of
(02:27):
being able to take September as a writing
Sabbath. And
I, um, worked really hard for the month of September. Like
every day I got up at 5am and I
worked almost nonstop until whatever
time of night.
Um, yeah, it
was definitely, uh, work, but it was such
(02:49):
a different kind of work from my
normal life because it was just this
pure passion project.
It was so focused. Right.
Like, so much of our, uh, work in
ministry is this crazy juggling act.
>> Loren (03:05):
Yes. Jack of all trades.
>> Martha Tatarnic (03:07):
Jack of all trades. Yeah. Juggling act.
And so I had this, like, very pure
experience of work for the month of
September. And
then I came back to the ministry
context in October and November.
And again, as many of our Listeners will know. And
(03:28):
you know, Loren, like, I
generally have had a very happy ministry and
I serve in a really great church
community. And yet
I kind of found myself,
um, teetering a little bit for the
past two months on the edge of depression
(03:48):
because there was just this,
um, like, stark
contrast between what
September had been like and then what faced
me when I came back in October.
So, you know, what faced me in October,
among all of the delightful things about ministry
were things like
(04:10):
serving a downtown church
where, uh,
like the precariousness of people's
lives is just getting more and more
extreme. Food insecurity and, and
lack of housing is getting more and more
extreme. And the winter months are coming
and people don't have anywhere to be, and they're sleeping
(04:32):
on our church property and they're
flooding our breakfast program. And
um, then there's just all of these
behaviors that go along with such precarious
living that, uh, we're facing every
day, uh, at St. George's security
concerns and security of our
(04:52):
guests who access those programs and our volunteers and all, all of
those things. So I mean, like, that's one pressure point. And
of course I came back to like, year end
and budgetary concerns and
um, like the
realities of like, the cost of living crisis
and inflation and
(05:13):
then how hard it is to
um, manage that in a church budget when all of
the costs are going up, but people's wallets
are feeling more and more pillaged.
>> Loren (05:25):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:26):
And then there's the pastoral realities.
And I came back to, you know, a few,
A few people in the congregation
who I have really,
um, like, looked to as
kind of my sources of wisdom in
ministry, um, suddenly
being in failing health.
(05:48):
And um, and
I'm trying to be their pastor,
but I'm also grieving because like,
it's. I feel the loss too.
Um, I came back to,
you know, just the ongoing realities
of serving the
(06:08):
mainline church and in the Anglican Church,
uh, globally. There's been kind of a
bunch of news stories about
the failures of the denomination and the
failures of church leadership. And you can just
feel that, like, anxiety all across
the system manifesting in some
very, um, difficult
(06:31):
ways as
systemically, you know, we try to navigate
decline. And then in the midst of all of that,
like, I also have a family and I'm a
mother, and I'm a mother of teenagers and
there's like a lot of emotional labor at home
as well. And um,
again, like, I'm not trying to say all of
(06:53):
this because I want a pity party.
Um, I think that these are really
normal pressure points
that like, that we face across
ministry. And I think why they hit me
so hard um, this
fall is because of the contrast
of being able to do such different kind of work
(07:16):
for 30 days. Yeah,
um, I've really
felt. And I can
give you a shout out here Loren,
um, because
I can say what I'm going to say without
sounding ah, like I'm bragging about myself.
(07:36):
Um, I have really found Future
Christian this fall to be
a pretty important touch point for me
in, especially in October and November as I've
been like trying to come back into
uh, like navigating those pressure
points. Um, because
(07:58):
every week when I put my earbuds in
and listen to the conversation that you've had with
one of our really amazing guests,
what um, I find I'm
getting are like two things that
I really need in particular. And these are kind of the
two themes that have really stuck out to me
(08:20):
across this season. So I
think the first theme is one that we
identify a lot in our conversations which
is around um, clergy mental
health. But you've had some really
good um, resources
offered this season in that department,
(08:40):
particularly in that intersection between
the scientific psychological community
and then how that impacts how we
understand the stories that we're navigating,
the trauma that we're living with, the
ways that um,
our pressure points can get triggered in
unhelpful ways the narratives that we might be
(09:03):
carrying in our bodies and in our memories.
So um, that those
like new resources into that
conversation I have just found extremely helpful
because uh, not only does it
offer resources but it normalizes I think, a
lot of the
um, stress that we can be carrying in
(09:26):
ministry and the struggle to stay well.
Honestly, like it can be a struggle to stay well. So
that's the first theme that I just really want to call
out. And um, and then the
other theme that I really see across our
guests this season is just
a lot of like really
well curated data like
(09:48):
from the ground, from people who have done
the research about what is actually happening
in our churches. And then like what we're
learning, like what we're learning from young people,
what we're learning from young people in specific
regions, what we're learning about
um, different kinds of communities across
(10:08):
our, across our Christian
landscape. Um,
and uh, for me anyway,
in the midst of all of the
swirling heartbreak and anxiety
that can be the mainline church, to get really
grounded
um, in information
(10:29):
about what's really happening. M.
And just have like really frank, honest
and ah,
um, like
conversation that comes with receipts you know,
like not just sort of
ideas but like we've actually done
(10:49):
the work and found out what's going
on. Um, that's been a real touchstone
for me. So all of that
is to say to our
listeners, um, I
hope that if you're feeling any of those same
stresses that I've named, I hope that you're
finding this to be a, ah,
(11:11):
safe community and
a ah, space that gives you
food for the journey. Because I certainly have been
finding it to be that. And then I just also
want to say thank you Loren, because
um, what you've started here
with Future Christian is uh,
(11:32):
just so essential.
>> Loren (11:34):
Yeah, thank you. And I certainly appreciate your
partnership. Thanks to listeners
and folks who have engaged.
Uh, this really has
become, you know, a
podcast really centered on, as
I say, an ecclesiology centered
podcast as I'm someone
(11:57):
who really believes in and cares about the church and
especially pastors. You know,
having worked in that space in the past
and hopefully again in the future at a point in
official capacity and having so many
friends and colleagues in that space, like Martha,
all those things you said,
(12:17):
A, holy smokes, that's a lot to step
back into. And B, like
I know all those points, if not
all the many of them are
impacting pastors and
church leaders, you know, the budgets, you know,
the. I mean I work right now in
(12:37):
a context where you work with low uh,
income and that can, you know, I think it can
be easy to kind of romanticize that kind of ministry
and like, oh, we're going to help these low income folks and
needy folks and then you kind of get working with them. You realize like,
hey, they're, they're complicated folks and
there's a lot of other stuff going on there that
(12:58):
complicates things. Mhm.
>> Martha Tatarnic (13:01):
No easy solutions.
Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Well, thank you for saying
that. And
um, yeah, I think
that at any given time many of
us are carrying around kind of a whole handful
of those kinds of stresses and then some. Right. Like,
(13:22):
right.
>> Loren (13:23):
Um, I, because
obviously, and I'll, I'm sorry, I'll, I'll say on
this too, like obviously the economy has
been, it's debated especially here in the States
about how bad it is, how bad it's not.
But I think like inflation, like that's a data
point. Right. Speaking of data points, that's a receipt
that we can speak to. Again, the arguments to
(13:45):
be made about whose fault it is or whatever, whatever.
But like that's a real thing. That is,
you uh, know, a real data point that is
Impacting. I mean, I just bought, uh, lunch day at the grocery
store. I'm like, how is mayonnaise 350 for mayonnaise?
Like, store brand mayonnaise.
>> Martha Tatarnic (14:03):
Yeah. Yeah. And so you're
simultaneously dealing with,
like, we're dealing with, you know, a 3%,
um, rise in all of our salaries at, um, the
church. But at the same time, we're
asking our congregation to give
more money that they don't have because of that
same, like, problem. Right.
(14:25):
So just, uh, it
can, can really take you in a
mind spiral for sure.
So, um, as I've,
as I've been gratefully
leaning, uh, into the future Christian,
um, this season,
(14:46):
not as the host primarily,
um, but just as one of the
listeners, um, we
have celebrated a pretty important
milestone. And so as we do this
recap, um, today, I really
thought, starting with that milestone,
um, that milestone episode
(15:08):
was important to
call out in a celebratory way,
which is that 200
episodes ago, Loren, you
were, um, just launching this whole
thing. And, uh,
you were a person with an idea
and a dream about,
(15:30):
um, what a podcast space
could look like and what kinds of needs it
could be addressing. And, you know,
200 episodes later, here we are. And,
uh, and I really believe that,
um, that we're
offering something really important
into the landscape of
(15:52):
church leadership. But I
wasn't part of starting it
up 200 episodes ago. I was.
I'm a late arrival. Um,
and I'd like to just
ask you again,
what was the initial spark
that got you into this?
>> Loren (16:15):
I mean, it was like many things, a Covid
project of feeling like, I mean, part of good.
Right. There was certainly this pressure on Covid to
produce more, even though there was
a crisis happening. So I think that was part of it.
And it was also, I think for me, like, if
this has not been obvious to folks,
(16:36):
I'm an enneagram5, so I love taking
information in. And
part of being healthy. Enneagram5 is sharing
information out there. So leaning into becoming an
eight, um, and you know, this podcast is one
of the ways that I get to do that. I think also,
like, a dream job for me would be a
(16:58):
academic, like a professor. Like, that ship has
probably sailed, at least
in the near future. That's not going to happen
realistically. But I'm in a space where,
I mean, I get to talk to again to name some
of our guests, like Dr. Elesha
Coffman and Dr. Uh,
(17:19):
Kristina Lazard Hashby. And,
you know, these, these like, wonky seminary
or seminary and academic
professors. Like, I get to have conversations with them, which,
you know, before podcasting existed would not. I don't
think it'd been a possibility. Like, I get some measure of being in
that kind of academic, nerdy space without
(17:39):
having a title or done, you know,
PhD doctoral work. So I think that's
really exciting for me. Um, and again,
like, obviously, like, we've. We've talked
about, like, this is stuff that we think and I
think is helpful. Um, so it's
like, I get to try to be helpful and also be a little
visionary, I think, as I try to think, like,
(18:01):
where do I at least think
church might be going? Where do I think leaders might be
struggling with? You know, how can that be helpful to them? And
then I'll just say this. Like, I just said this to someone this morning.
Like, podcasting is a lot of work. I don't know if
folks really understand how much work it is. And
I sort of, like, about every month or two, I'm just like, oh, can I just.
I should just quit.
(18:25):
It's just like, so much work. And I'm just like, oh, do I
really want to do this? And then, like, you know, I read a good book,
like your forthcoming, uh, guest, uh,
Jesse Zink. Right. Who Martha will have
on, and I'm just like, you know, I got
a. I got a new stack of books here that I'm looking forward to read and
going to reach out to some more contacts for
conversations, and that really keeps, uh, me
(18:48):
going.
>> Martha Tatarnic (18:49):
Okay. Yeah, I can
appreciate all of those things. Um,
you do say all the time that. That you're a church nerd,
so, yeah, it does seem
like a good space for that. And you're
right. Um, the labor behind the
scenes is, I think, way more
than I thought.
(19:10):
As somebody who
voraciously listens to podcasts,
I didn't quite, uh, understand how much work
goes into producing
podcasts. Um, how has
it evolved over the past couple of
years, the past 200 episodes?
>> Loren (19:29):
I mean, I think what comes to mind first,
just, like, I've somehow sustain this for, like, four
different jobs. It's probably
the most realistic challenge. And
hopefully, hopefully there'll be
a fifth job that I'll sustain this through, or maybe
even sixth, who knows? Um, I think that's
just like, the most obviously, technology
(19:52):
and resources, like
having you come on board, having.
Um, our
production guy right now is Alex Lang, Alexander Lang,
who Martha has had in a guest, and again, we'll
be having on again in a future
episode here shortly. So there's been
(20:13):
different people to kind of do the, some of the editing work,
which again helps just kind of manage the
overall labor. Um, I've
been fortunate to, for the podcast, receive some support
from Phillips Seminary, my alma mater. So shout
out to Philip Seminary and thank you for your support there.
And, uh, really just been. I mean, it really is a labor
(20:33):
of love, though. Um, it's. It's sort
of. It sort of is mind boggling to think 200
episodes because it's, it's a good bit of
work and conversations and I'm. I'm grateful. I've
had so many conversations with so many really
interesting people.
>> Martha Tatarnic (20:49):
Are there any that, uh, that stick
out particularly that you'd want
to just raise as like kind of dream
conversations for you?
>> Loren (21:01):
I mean, I think one that always comes to
mind immediately is. And it's funny, when I was at theology beer
camp like a month or two ago, like, I, uh, was
sitting, getting ready for like the start of the
opening session and like, literally, who sits right next to
me is Brian McLaren. Yeah,
he's, you know, certainly there's been a.
(21:22):
There's a lot of. All these folks have been very generous
in kind with their time. You know,
Brian always strikes me as someone who's very humble, very
generous, very kind, and I've really appreciate
that. Um, you know,
even beyond him though, certainly,
you know, the nerdy conversations are the ones
(21:42):
that I tend to appreciate the most. I think,
um, you know, I think of again,
Dr. Elesha Coffman. You know, I've
really try to lean into when
the opportunity arises to do in person
interviews. So, you know,
I've tried to do some like again, with Dr. Kristina
Lazardi Hashby, who's in my neck of
(22:04):
the woods. Megan Basel, who. We are kind of in the same
neck of the woods. So those have been really a lot of fun. Is
when opportunity arises to do something in person.
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:13):
Yeah. Yeah. I haven't had that opportunity
yet, but, uh, it no doubt changes
the dynamic.
>> Loren (22:20):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:21):
Quite significantly. Yeah. Well,
okay, so if people are looking for some
back catalog to go to, they should check
out, uh, a few of those people. Brian
McLaren, Megan,
Kristina.
>> Loren (22:35):
I'm going. Well, I have to look now and figure out what.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's.
I mean, I. It's like, it's like your children, like you love them all for
different reasons.
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:50):
Yeah, that's right.
>> Loren (22:53):
I mean, like, but again, like, this was
obviously not mine, but like, you know, year two
with, um. Who is it?
Elizabeth. Dr. Elizabeth Schrader.
>> Martha Tatarnic (23:03):
P. Yeah,
um, Schrader. Polczer
>> Loren (23:08):
Pulitzer, yeah. Like, again,
uh, really interesting stuff and
really, I think, uh, beneficial to the
podcast.
>> Martha Tatarnic (23:18):
Yeah, that re. Uh, look at,
um, Gospel of John and Mary Magdalene.
Um, she was definitely one of my
heroes that I got to interview. So, you know,
there's some moments where we get to be
really starstruck in this, ah, chair as
host.
>> Loren (23:37):
And I wanted to like, even highlight some of the
episodes from the summer too, of, you know, Allison
Milbank I thought was a great guest. Jason
Byassee obviously we
mentioned, um,
Elizabeth. Rob Hurkmans I thought was an interesting
episode. So, you know,
Martha and I are really fortunate to talk to some great folks
(23:59):
and I'm, I'm enjoying
it.
>> Martha Tatarnic (24:02):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, encourage
our listeners to re. Listen or go
and listen for the first time to some of those
previous, uh, episodes because,
you know, I think that they
continue to be timely. Right. Like,
we're in sort of a long conversation about
(24:24):
the future of the church. So if you go back a couple of years,
I don't think you're going to
listen, um, to stuff that sounds wildly out of date.
>> Loren (24:33):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (24:35):
So, um, for the 200th
episode, I think it was really fitting
a. That we got to be part
of that episode together.
>> Loren (24:45):
Yes.
>> Martha Tatarnic (24:45):
Um, we got to do a panel
discussion and I think that the
topic was really,
um, on point because it was
around clergy health. And, you know, I've already said
it in this conversation, we say it
a lot. But there's just
a big component of how the
(25:07):
conversations that we're having, um,
circle back to this.
So, um, so why
don't we just recap a little
bit of. Of that
milestone, uh, episode, Loren, and
you have a few clips, don't you, of that
(25:27):
episode.
>> Loren (25:28):
So I'm glad again you kind of made this point.
But I'll reinforce that. I think the roundtable
episode is. I think some of the ones that Martha and I
think I can speak for you on this behalf have really enjoyed
doing just to bring in different
perspectives, and I think this
was a really good one. So again, to tutor on horn
(25:49):
here. Go back and listen if you haven't already. You, uh,
know, I, I was,
um, intentional about bringing in Brian, who
comes from an evangelical background,
although that's kind of not true because I, I talked to him recently and
his. He grew up in an ABC American
Baptist church, which is technically a mainline church.
(26:10):
He certainly serves in the evangelical context
right now, but again, sort of has, uh,
some mainline elements to him. Um, and then of course
Kinsie, who primarily comes from a mainline
background, and of course both of us,
um, so really? Again, you,
Martha, will tease. This has an episode coming
(26:30):
out with Mike Casper, who, again, definitely an
evangelical voice. We really try to be intentional
about bringing in different voices
to bring different perspectives. And this is one of the things that I
really appreciate about, uh, that episode. But
let's do soothing. I can find it
here. Let's play some of this clip from
Kenzie Tate, because I think. Or let's
(26:52):
do. Let's do with this one. And then,
um, assuming
I can make this happen.
>> Kinsie Tate (26:59):
So we. We constantly kind of compare so that we can make sure that we
fit in and we belong. I mean, ultimately, it's about
belonging, that comparison. But when it
goes off course is when we feel
like I don't belong, like
what I'm doing isn't good enough. But, you know,
when we're in that stress response, um, and I feel like I'm
(27:19):
not producing. Is this about patriarchy? And I need to be
a certain way to be considered, like, powerful.
Is this about, um, I'm just
tired, and when I'm tired, I feel like I don't
do a good job. So it's. There's. It's so
complex. Um, and I think that's why
these conversations are important. And this is what I would really love for
clergy gatherings to be. You know, like,
(27:42):
we could talk about these things and really have some insight
and feel those emotions well up and have
a safe space to talk about it and maybe
hear from, you know, like, you heard from Martha. It's like, I'd never
thought about it that way. Like, that's so helpful. Gives
me a new level of insight to kind of integrate what it is that
I'm feeling so it doesn't come out sideways.
>> Loren (28:03):
I. Kenzie, uh, again, shout out. Kenzie, you better be
listening here. You know, I really appreciate her work.
Obviously ordained herself married to a
pastor. Um, pretty helpful for me.
So much good stuff there. What strikes you there?
>> Martha Tatarnic (28:17):
Yeah, I mean, I am struck
by just the perennial
problem of how
badly we do as clergy when we
gather together. Like, we
don't. We're not good at all about
making safe spaces. Like,
uh, unless your context is, like, wildly different
(28:39):
from mine, I don't think so. Yeah, like,
we just,
um. We just, like,
so easily
fall into the, like, bitch and
brag categories.
>> Loren (28:54):
And I, uh, Like, forgive me for cutting you off, but
I feel like you can also turn into this, like,
too much positive spinning or
shining the turd. It's like. It's like.
>> Martha Tatarnic (29:07):
Yeah, this false bravado.
>> Loren (29:09):
Well, it's like it's almost like, you know, to use
a topic you've brought up, like oh, the budget. We're
in budget crisis but we're gonna celebrate God's provision
and God's abundance.
It's like can something just suck? Can we just, you
know, uh, folks who, if you're not aware,
check out Martha's book. Because I, I do think about this
a lot. Martha, your point about ultrarealism. I don't know
(29:32):
if you want to explain that briefly.
>> Martha Tatarnic (29:34):
Yeah. Ah, so ultrarealism is a
term that I got um, from
endurance running. But it's
like a mental
strategy of uh,
pulling yourself away from our
tendencies of wishing that things were
different or worrying about what is going to come next and
(29:56):
actually get real about what's actually
happening. So um, like
name it and accept it and
embrace it. Um, but,
but like you've got to get to the it. Like
what's happening. None of this
sort of, yeah,
(30:17):
making um, things sound better than they
are or feeling like you,
you can't just say that things suck,
um, you know, like what's
happening and then what are we going to do about it?
>> Loren (30:31):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (30:31):
And to me
that's um, that's a much more
hopeful place than what
we sometimes do in clergy gatherings.
>> Loren (30:43):
So um, let me, let me play this clip from Brian
about and I want you to be thinking
about what does this look like? What's the equivalent in
like a mainline space? Let me play this and
you be thinking about that.
>> Brian Davis (30:56):
I still hear it every once in a while but you know.
It really.
Started to rise up kind of the mid um, early
2000s where it was like, you know, you'd be
in your pre service meeting or whatever
and someone, usually the lead pastor would say
something like okay everybody, like this may
(31:16):
be our one chance
ever speak the truth of the gospel to the people that
are sitting in these seats. So don't blow it.
Like.
How much pressure are you ah, putting on
ourselves? I
mean that just pardon my language but that just
reeked of to me from the beginning. Like
(31:39):
this is not the fact that
someone's personal salvation is entirely up to me and
how I perform from the stage.
I had to reject that right away. But there are so many who
haven't and still put all that pressure on
themselves. Um, to.
>> Loren (31:56):
Yeah. What do you think that looks like in mainline
context, I wonder?
>> Martha Tatarnic (32:01):
Yeah, um, I mean my mind
just initially goes to
our annual data reporting
and like maybe that's not
like uh. I'm sure it's not the only comparison.
But in our uh. So in our context
anyway, they're called vestry reports. And like
(32:23):
you have to run the data
from the year, like average number
of attendees and how many households you have.
And then there's like financial information and all of it
has to be like sent into the diocese
and, and then like the information that you
send in, um, on
(32:44):
a just like very
concrete way, it depends like
that affects your representation then in synods
and stuff like that. But just
I think the knots that
um, in the past I have like
gotten tied up in just.
Okay, did, did our annual or
(33:07):
did our average attendance go up this year or did it go down this
year? And like by how much did it go up? And,
and, and if it didn't go up then
like why didn't it go up? And, and
if it did go up then okay, maybe like
maybe we're doing something right and ah, like
just kind of all of that
um, pressure that we get
(33:30):
like downloaded onto
um, these numbers as if they tell
us something about
like whether or not we're
doing good ministry.
>> Loren (33:44):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (33:46):
I don't know. Like, do you kind of have a
parallel?
>> Loren (33:51):
I mean I think as I listen
to this, I think,
I think again this is getting philosophical. I think
this is the other side of the
coin of this. To use the Charles
Taylor stuff that Andy Root writes about of the secular age
where there's this, just this pressure on
(34:12):
humans because we don't really believe that
are in a God who can, you
know, move and act in a world that it's on us.
>> Martha Tatarnic (34:20):
Yeah.
>> Loren (34:21):
Uh, like, like Brian is saying, like the pressure
is like we've got to make this service so good
that it's compelling the people rather than trusting that the
Holy Spirit will move in people. And I think in mainline
progressive spaces it's like we've got to be
so activist and
you know, social justice because we can't
really trust that God is moving in
(34:44):
our communities.
>> Martha Tatarnic (34:46):
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's ah, an astute observation
too for sure.
I think like right across the
board, um,
I think all of us can relate to that,
uh, messiah complex, I would say. Enlarge.
(35:07):
I have.
>> Loren (35:08):
Sorry.
>> Martha Tatarnic (35:09):
That's okay. That messiah complex. Right. Like
we can just um, think that
it's up to us to save things.
>> Loren (35:18):
Well here, maybe let's play this clip here. That
actually started too soon because it's.
You talk about the benefits of team
ministry.
>> Martha Tatarnic (35:31):
I would say in large, I have
enjoyed a happy ministry. You know,
it hasn't always been easy and
I have had times of struggle. But by and large like
two decades of ministry have been
happy. And
the major thing that I credit to
that is that I have always worked
(35:54):
in a team. So I have
never felt like I
have to be the Jack of all trades. And I've
never felt particularly
lonely in ministry, which I think is,
you know, quite different from a lot of people's
experience. So I think that there is something
systemically that we could do with that
(36:16):
observation. And, and I think that the more that
we can think about how
we create teams of ministry, and
I don't mean just ordained
leaders, um, but you know,
teams of people whose
gifts complement one another and
who are, you know, deployed, uh,
(36:39):
equipped, resourced to be
able to share those gifts, to build
up the body of Christ in the place
where they're called. I think that really could be
a game changer.
>> Loren (36:53):
For context, I did edit
that, even that clip for social media's
sake. So if you want to hear Martha does speak
about like some systemic ideas again,
listen to episode 200. Um, I
also want to hear Martha because I was just talking about this with one of
my friends
because you know, he has kind of wisely
(37:16):
advised me like hey, the next
ministry job, like it can't just be all you,
like you, you just can't do it. I was like, well how does that
work with the fact that so many
churches can barely afford like one full time
person? And you kind of uh, you kind
of hint at it there about non clergy
type teams. And that's you know, one of the things he suggested too.
(37:38):
But like, let's talk about that for a minute. Like what do you think
about other. Because I'm um, I would
need someone who like again
I'm an introvert and
let uh, me defend introverts. Like we're not antisocial, we just
need to guard our social energy.
>> Martha Tatarnic (37:55):
Yep.
>> Loren (37:55):
You know, so like I can't just be up front
247 talking to people. So I would probably need someone who can
run some kind of interference.
What else do you think, Martha?
>> Martha Tatarnic (38:08):
Yeah, I mean I, first of
all, like I do think that
probably, and I have no crystal ball here,
but I would imagine that
in a lot of our denominations a sustainable
future is going to look like some ministry
centers out of which, um,
(38:29):
you know, smaller kind of
ministry, um, groupings
happen that aren't necessarily in church buildings. So.
>> Loren (38:39):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (38:39):
Um, so I do think
that there's got to be
um, a pretty big
upside to that in terms of
building those teams. Right. That I was talking
about. Um, and
yeah, like I, I think
(39:00):
I, my My
partner in crime here at St. George's Tom,
is an extrovert and I'm quite
introverted. And um, and that
is a nice interplay.
And um, there are
like parts of ministry that I
(39:21):
just like love and get really
fed by like communications
and um,
understanding the finances. I know that's not
what everybody would say, right?
>> Loren (39:35):
Seems counterintuitive, but yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (39:37):
And uh, like
he has other areas that like just
set him on fire. And
then like I would say that
there's stuff that neither one of us is that
good at, like property management. And
thankfully, like we have really good
people in our congregation who
(39:59):
are like excited by that file.
So um,
yeah, I think that uh,
like we all have to do a certain amount of ministry that drains
us. Right. But. But if you get to offset that
with some parts that just really
like top up your tank, like.
>> Loren (40:19):
Mhm.
>> Martha Tatarnic (40:20):
It. It's great.
>> Loren (40:23):
Yeah, that's.
>> Martha Tatarnic (40:24):
Sorry, go ahead.
>> Loren (40:25):
No, I was just thinking like that's so true. Like
any job is gonna have just suck factors
and trying to find a balance there. And I'm
like, I'm thinking about a couple
things I've heard about and ideas that
I've had related to that is, you know, like
the senior leader, the elite,
(40:45):
whatever title. If it's a
solo pastoral staff, like
I'm thinking this is hard because again,
costs and financial challenges be what they are. But
there might be a situation where like
if caught or if contexts
are what they may, you may need to take a
(41:06):
pay cut and then just hire someone to be.
Because like I'm telling you right now, if I was
working on a solo staff team, like I'd almost want to
just take a pay cut and hire someone, even if
it's part time, who could kind of be
that kind of like run interference for me. Be
like the extrovert.
>> Martha Tatarnic (41:25):
Yeah.
>> Loren (41:25):
M. Because I just, I can't be extroverted all the time. Like
I really enjoy it in context. Like I
really enjoy people, but I just find myself at the end of the day just like out
of gas.
>> Martha Tatarnic (41:35):
Yeah. Yeah.
Um, in the, in
St. George's and in the last couple places
I've served, part of our teams have been
complemented by retired clergy
who, you know, are now drawing a
pension and um,
don't want the like day in, day out
(41:57):
responsibilities, but still really want to
serve and contribute and have a lot of
awesome gifts to offer.
And that's a really neat way in which smaller
parishes, um,
can be resourced too because it
can be a real win win.
Um, when People
(42:20):
who have served in ministry get to
serve in ministry in a bit of a
different way without the.
The big pressures kind of all the
time. Um, but then
it. Yeah, it fills out that. That team
again, so that you're not just doing everything.
>> Loren (42:40):
And that's good, because what's the
saying, right. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
Like, I'm, um, being very disparaging of retired clergy,
but. No, you know,
perhaps this is unfair, but so many stories I hear
of retired clergy incarnation behaving
badly. So this is, I suppose, a good way to keep them.
(43:00):
Keep them close, keep them on and on.
Your. Under your thumb. That's not the right word. But, you know, keep
tabs on them.
>> Martha Tatarnic (43:07):
Yeah, I mean, I have. I've been very
lucky in only having amazing
retired clergy in my congregations, but
I have heard some stories as well. Yeah, there are
some stories out there. Um, I just
wanted to say one other thing about that clip,
because the other
(43:27):
piece that I was really thinking as we were listening to
it is that it does come back to what
we're sort of celebrating today, which
is future Christian and,
um, 200 episodes in
and what you've been able to create
here. Because I do think that,
um, this can be part
(43:50):
of how
clergy, uh, who are on the front lines, who are
in challenging ministry contexts,
who do sometimes feel alone, who do sometimes
feel under resourced, who do sometimes feel
like, um, they have to do it all
that, like, this can be
(44:10):
a community that,
um,
that helps to
resource and companion people in
ministry.
>> Loren (44:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (44:28):
So do you want to touch base
about a few other standout episodes
from this season, Loren?
>> Loren (44:35):
Yeah, why don't we do that? As I'm kind of looking through the
clips I have and let
me play. I can remember which one is which here.
Um, for
folks, go back and listen to the
episode with Chuck DeGroat. Um, one
of the things. I've been fortunate to have
(44:56):
a couple conversations with Chuck. Um, and I think one of
the things that I really appreciate about him
was a.
He really seemed to care about and understand pastors.
Um, but two, I think the way he
approaches this, I really
feel like, is a good,
(45:16):
um, approach. I'm trying to get
this clip to play. Let me see here.
You write that while some might contend that our core problem as
humans is that we think too highly of ourselves,
you say. I'd argue that most of us live with an
underlying sense of worthlessness, alienation,
and disillusionment. I mean, again,
(45:37):
as someone who grew up very conservative Christian,
that quote is Shocking, almost.
>> Brian Davis (45:42):
Yeah, yeah. And what we know
is that there are certainly people who think too highly of
themselves, but underneath that inevitably is shame.
>> Loren (45:51):
Yeah.
>> Brian Davis (45:52):
And we see this play out. You know, this is sort of
a psychological truism. I think it's a biblical one
too. There are a number of people now who
are saying even before Adam and Eve grasped for the
fruit, which you know, is sometimes theologized
as some sort of arrogant decision, you know, Adam and
Eve's pride, what they're wrestling with
(46:12):
are these questions that are raised by the
serpent. They're being gaslit by the way they're
being abused, you know, by the serpent
who is raising questions that send
them spiraling, like maybe we're not enough. Maybe
we're missing something which I call shame.
And so shame proceeds even the grasping of the fruit.
(46:32):
And so I think for, for all of us. And
you know, I've done some significant work on narcissism.
You know, the way we understand that psychologically is that you're not
born with narcissism. You don't wake up one day and choose to
become a narcissist. It's born out of a way
of coping. I'm going to become
grandiose. I become the bully because I
experienced abuse or I was bullied, or I was small, or I was
(46:55):
made to feel ashamed. And I never ever want to feel
that again.
>> Loren (47:01):
Obviously Chuck has some great insights there
and I think his insights on Genesis 3 really
were quite revolutionary for me.
Uh, I'm wondering, how did
that strike you? How does that episode strike you? Because I know for me it
was just really life giving to think about
that in a different context. To think,
(47:22):
you know, it's a way of like
reframing it where it's like, you know, I,
you know, in, in my tradition, disciples, Christ,
the term brokenness is used a lot, which I think
really resonates with and I might have mentioned
it in that episode. What really resonates with, I think what Chuck is trying to
(47:42):
say, or at least as I understand it, what, what comes to mind for you?
>> Martha Tatarnic (47:46):
Yeah, um, I
reached out to you about that episode because I found
it quite powerful in a lot of different
ways. Again, I just like really appreciate that
intersection between the,
the um, like scientific research and then
the ministry context. I didn't grow
up in a sin heavy tradition at
(48:09):
all. Like, that was not, um,
that kind of like overbearing, judgmental
God is not the God that I grew up
with. Um, but what I found,
what I found really powerful about that particular
Clip. Um, this. This
idea that, like, our
(48:29):
primary problem is not thinking too highly of
ourselves. Our primary problem is shame.
I, um, found it really helpful just in terms of
how I look differently
at people that I perceive to be
difficult personalities. You know,
like, um, when I
(48:49):
get frustrated by. By what
I perceive as someone's arrogance or
narcissism, um, um, to be able
to take a step back and wonder, okay, like,
what's the. What's the hurt beneath
this? Like, what is the.
What's the wound
underneath here? You had
(49:12):
another.
>> Loren (49:12):
Sorry, go ahead.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:13):
Oh, you had.
Go ahead.
>> Loren (49:18):
No, I was just gonna say. Let me say briefly, it really goes back to what Kinsie said about
kind of being aware of your own stuff so you can be
in a space to care for others.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:26):
Yeah, yeah, I think so. There was
another one of your guests this season who I
believe also talked about Genesis 3. Right.
Um, and they had like, this
redefinition of
sin. Do you remember who was it?
Yolanda Solomon.
>> Loren (49:45):
It could have been. It could have been.
Because,
uh. Yeah, because
I tied. I don't have a clip from.
I think it's. Yeah, I think she said it.
Yolanda. Hopefully I'm getting that right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:01):
Uh, yeah, I think so.
>> Loren (50:03):
Um, I don't have a clip from her episode, but I think I
immediately typed when I talked to her to Chuck's
book. I had not yet interviewed Chuck because she
also says in her thing, like
one of the key questions she
reads from Scripture is God
saying, where are you? And that's similarly
(50:23):
what Chuck wrote about in his book, which I thought was a
great, really powerful connection. And again, kind
of re. Reframes,
uh, in such a powerful way that Genesis 3 story of.
Rather than, as I heard it, kind of this guilt and
shaming, like, where are you?
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:39):
Yeah, yeah, like the finger wagging God,
like, stomping around Eden, like,
where are you?
>> Loren (50:47):
And I think fits with like, the story of, like,
obviously the prodigal son comes to mind is
another story of, um, what,
the 1 sheep versus the 99.
Finding the 1 sheep. This, ah,
imagery of God being a God who is like,
where are you humans? Where are you?
(51:08):
I'm not mad at you. Maybe I'm
disappointed or sad for you, but
where are you? I want to be in relationship with you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (51:16):
Yeah, I want you close. Where did you go? I want
you close. I mean, as I was listening to
Chuck talk, I was just picturing, you know,
when sometimes, like, you're in a conversation with a
friend and you can just see
them go somewhere else, like
mentally and like they
just, like something has
(51:38):
triggered them or like they've just gone somewhere else. And,
and it's that like, friendship question.
Like, okay, where did you go? Like, I want you
here. I want to, I want to have the.
I want to be in this relationship.
>> Loren (51:53):
Yeah, boy, that's good. And I think this,
you know, I try not to make this a super theology heavy
podcast because there's a million theology heavy
podcasts, but it does really highlight
the importance. Uh, and I try not to, I try
not to be like a theology hater, but I do want
to speak to and recognize the limits per
se. I guess it might be a kind of way of saying the limits of
(52:16):
some sort of theologies. Certainly when we think
about, you know, concepts of
like original sin and such, it really does
really shape and frame the narrative of
the contrast from what you're saying
of. To this really kind
of how dare you situation.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:36):
Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. It really
reframes it. I love that
as a question that God is
continually floating out to
us across the pages of scripture, like, okay,
where are you? I
want to be close.
>> Loren (52:57):
Well, there's so much good stuff here that I, we're running
a time and I don't know where else to go here.
Um,
I suppose. Let me play this one from
Casey Tigret, who,
hey, I really, really appreciated
his book in this conversation.
(53:20):
But uh, I think his point here
about. He talked about his family visiting,
going, um, blank on it. Um, the
famous chap church in St.
Louis.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:33):
Oh yeah, Notre Dame.
>> Loren (53:34):
Um, yeah, thank you. And this is before
the fire. And he mentions
like, for him it really brought back great
memories. But also he can imagine for folks
who have really painful memories how much it
reinforce these memories. So let me play this field
real quick.
>> Casey Tygrett (53:54):
Uh, in 2012, my family,
we went to Paris, France. And this was
before the,
um, Notre Dame
Cathedral had burned. And so we went to an evening
service and there
is this children's choir singing and all in French.
I had no idea what they were saying, but it was just beautiful.
(54:16):
And so sitting there just in, taking in all of this,
the sights, the smells, the sounds.
And I didn't know what they were saying, but there was this.
>> Loren (54:25):
There.
>> Casey Tygrett (54:25):
It was one of those moments. And I think people listening have had these too, where
you don't know what's going on. You just know that you're
like staring through the scrim between heaven and
earth, like you're experiencing something
divine. So I'm sitting here telling you the
story and I can, I
feel that, like I Feel that sense
of being in that. In that cathedral that now
(54:47):
is totally renovated and not
understanding any of the words, but just sensing that God was near. And
that's a memory that created a story for
me that God can be
in these places that we don't understand. However, if
somebody else who had a background, let's say they
had an experience of abuse within a,
(55:07):
uh, formal, like maybe a Roman Catholic
setting, and they walked into that same
cathedral, their experience of God
is going to be very different. So they bring
whatever brain, whatever story into that same
place.
>> Loren (55:24):
You know, when I'm listening to that, I'm thinking
of my episode with, um. I think
it's Grace Ji Sun Kim
who again talks about
the problem of whiteness
in just the ways that especially
white Christians have really
(55:45):
hurt folks of color. You know, there
really is this both and of. And
lot of that hand is bad.
You know, I think that's what
makes the work of pastors and church
leaders so difficult, as I'm
sure there's leaders
(56:05):
of color who are dealing with both sides of that,
right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:08):
Uh,
yeah, yeah. I think,
um, it's
like I serve in this
historic old church building
that's like, full of
the history of St. Catherine's and plaques on the wall
(56:29):
and stained glass. And we always talk
about how it feels like a thin space,
um, and that, like, you can
feel that generations have been
gathering here to pray and sing and
serve and all of those things. Like you feel it when you walk in.
But it is really important to be
(56:49):
attentive to what Casey names,
which is like, that is not everybody's narrative.
That's not, um, just
a universal experience.
And, um.
And. And I.
Maybe there's a piece too in that that just
reminds us to be really intentional
(57:11):
about what kind of spaces we are
creating and what.
How we're. How we are trying
to make these places of
welcome and inclusion and safety. And
I think we fail in lots of ways. And those
failures can sometimes be pretty epic.
(57:33):
Um, but it certainly highlights
that sacred responsibility for us.
>> Loren (57:39):
Yeah, it makes me think of an altease, an
episode I have coming
for January or at least
2025, with an author of this book,
Disabling Leadership. And him and his,
uh, co authors in the book really lean
into the importance of churches
creating inclusive spaces for folks of, you
(58:01):
know, different, uh, abilities.
And, uh, really pinpoint, especially in the
book, you know, some of the ways that our churches
unintentionally, you know, communicate
unwelcome in little ways. Like
in the book they talk about, I guess, I'm stealing the thunder of
the podcast, but in the book, they talk about, like,
um, getting a, like
(58:24):
you, you know, purchasing an old
kind of historic church building and being really
excited, but then the pastor being
real excited, but then getting feedback from those
who are in, in a, in a wheelchair or some kind of
mobility device. Like, hey, if we're going to keep the
sanctuary this way, like, I'm stuck sitting in one
position. You know, I'm stuck sitting at the back of
(58:47):
the sanctuary, for instance. Um,
um. So it really does take some
intentionality and humility. I,
I'm thinking to,
to continue that work of creating. Being
inclusive and welcoming.
>> Martha Tatarnic (59:03):
Yeah, inclusive and welcoming. And, and,
um, that does come up with
Dr. Dr. Kim. Right.
Um, and I think it came up with
Jeff Koos as well in terms of what young
people are looking for.
Like, that representation
(59:23):
piece, um, is very
linked to inclusion and welcoming
and what kind of stories get embedded in our
bodies and souls. And I keep thinking
about Dr. Kim's, you know,
naming, growing up with this, like,
Sunday school picture of a, uh, white Jesus
(59:43):
and how much that
kind of forms your idea that,
like, God isn't like me.
Um, and in, like,
how important it is to see women in
leadership, how important it is to see,
um, people of different races
(01:00:05):
and ethnicities in leadership, that all
of that is part of how we,
um, how we
are intentional about the story that we're
shaping.
>> Loren (01:00:18):
Let me just play this clip here since we're speaking about her
from, uh, Dr. Kim.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:23):
It's because we have a white male God,
and that allows white men to be
superior over others because they're closer
to God. Like, this reasoning makes
absolutely no sense, but that's a reasoning that
has been part of our Christian history
and it continues to stay with us. A
feminist, uh, theologian called Mary
(01:00:44):
Daly said if God is male, then
the male is God. It's this
intertwining and just kind of
this cycle of
perpetuation that one thing
reinforces the other. So the
maleness of God reinforces that, uh, men
are better. The whiteness of God
(01:01:05):
then says, hey, white people are better.
So it's a horrible, horrible
cycle that continues to be with us in
our churches today.
>> Loren (01:01:17):
Kind of goes back to what I was saying, you
know, about theology has implications,
right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:23):
Yep. Yeah.
And as I'm listening
to her, you know, there's
this, like, constant complaint
out there in the, in the
air these days about wokeness and
like, political correctness and, and getting
our language right. And people can be quite
(01:01:45):
disparaging, um, about
uh, that agenda. Right. But
what is missed
in those disparaging comments is that there are very
violent implications to the
problems that she's identifying. Right. Like there
are, there's violence associated with
(01:02:05):
men being superior over women. There's violence
associated with racism, there's viol violence
associated with white uh,
supremacy. Like these,
these aren't just like nice concepts. And let's
just get our words correct. This is
about like the dignity of
(01:02:26):
people.
>> Loren (01:02:27):
Yeah. You know. Yeah.
I say it this way again. Theology has implications and
I think it's important
as much, as
much as that can be
oversimplified. I don't know if that's the right way of saying it,
but can get lost. It's about
(01:02:49):
thinking through the implications of words
and language and practices.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:02:54):
Mhm.
>> Loren (01:02:55):
And it's a shame that
it's misinterpreted or misunderstood perhaps.
Let me play this clip because we've been talking
about him. I just uploaded, so hopefully this will work.
Um, Jeff Keuss talks
about again recommend this
because he had data like Martha mentioned earlier
(01:03:17):
in the episode, in this episode about uh,
folks, young adults interested in church. But
diversity was something he named as important for
folks. Let's. The
more diverse voices, the more diverse inputs. God is
that much bigger homogeneous communities show them a small
God, an easily manageable God. Um,
(01:03:37):
and the question for churches is.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:03:39):
Do you want to be following a.
>> Loren (01:03:40):
Big God or a small God? Yeah,
homogeny is a small God and diversity is a big God. It's
just that. I'll just leave it there.
Recommend uh, that folks because
Jeff was very. The data he had
was that folks are not
antagonistic per se of church. They see the value of
(01:04:01):
church, but they understand what church is and is not.
And like you said, homogenous communities
are not something they want to be part of.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:04:09):
Yeah, he talks about the on ramps and the
off ramps to being part
of church communities. And yeah, the big
encouragement is that young people are
spiritual. They're searching,
they're uh, they see the value
in churches by and large.
Um, but the on
(01:04:30):
ramps aren't always clear and
the off ramps, um,
can
uh, they
can sort of happen without us
knowing what
the issue is. That leave uh,
somebody feeling disenfranchised from our
(01:04:52):
churches.
>> Loren (01:04:54):
Well, many more episodes we could play
clips from.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:04:58):
Yeah, we could just do this all day. Loren, why don't we just
uh. Have you got like another three hours?
>> Loren (01:05:04):
I wish. I don't know if folks want to listen to us
for that long. I mean I would want to listen to us, but you
know, obviously biased. So
Martha always gives the appeal at the
beginning of the episode and, and when
I do the intro for her episodes, I repeat her
appeal. Please do listen or
obviously please do listen and subscribe. Uh,
(01:05:27):
do share this with a friend, especially if you're a leader
and know a church leader. It really does help.
Um, as Martha said, like, we really believe in
what we're, we're doing here. We believe in these conversations
and we want to get them to more people.
Yes, because I want to grow the podcast and we want to grow the podcast, but also
because we think they're helpful for people.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:05:47):
Mhm.
>> Loren (01:05:48):
Martha, what else?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:05:51):
Yeah, like we want to grow the,
that community of
companionship and resourcing in
of uh, a job that
can feel really complex and sometimes
lonely and um,
full of pressure points. So like, we
(01:06:12):
want this to be a place where not only are
we providing a lot of different perspectives
as we kind of create crowdsource, this thing
that we call the future of the church,
um, but also
that like we're hearing from our listeners. I think that's
my appeal that I would want to just keep putting out. Like
we'd love to hear from the people listening.
(01:06:34):
It's nice to know what resonates with you.
It's nice to know what it sparks for
you. Um, it's nice
to get um,
some ideas for future
episodes. So yeah, weigh in
and listen and share
(01:06:55):
and let's just continue
to really make this a landing point for all of
us in our ministry weeks where we know that we
can turn and hear some
real insight,
um, and feel like we have
a, ah, safe community where we're
(01:07:15):
figuring this out together.
>> Loren (01:07:17):
Yeah, and I think it goes back to kind of how you started this
conversation. You know, as you got
back in, you were, you know,
bombarded with these pressures
of budget and you know,
ministry day to day and
rising costs. Like this
is what this podcast, this is why this
(01:07:40):
podcast covers so many of these diverse topics because
we understand the diversity and
complexity of the job and of church ministry
today. That's why we try to bring on such diverse voices
and from different perspectives. And I, you
know, and again, this is why I say this is
like, it's not
just solely meant for church pastors. Like,
(01:08:04):
you know, if you want to share this with some of your church leaders, your lay leaders, like,
so to help them get a good perspective on
what your job is like and what the task
of ministry is like.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:08:13):
Yeah, I know a lot of like my congregants
listen to this and, and
it's not even just about recognizing,
like, what my job is. Like, it's about recognizing
that we're all, like, we all care
about our church together and we
all like, whether we're ordained or lay
(01:08:33):
people, like, we're all bringing our gifts to the table
in terms of how we shape the church.
So, yeah, by no means is it just for
people in ordained leadership. Like, it, uh,
it's for people who care about the church
that we're creating.
>> Loren (01:08:50):
Yeah. Well, let me just say one last thanks
to you, Martha. Thanks to our listeners. Thanks for.
Thanks for guests. You know, this, this show is
obviously an interview format and
really appreciate all the guests who have come on
not just this past season, but over the 200
episodes. So thank you. Thank, uh, you all
(01:09:10):
for being a part of this.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:09:13):
Yeah. Thank you.
>> Loren (01:09:15):
Shall we end this with a word of peace?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:09:17):
I think we should, Martha.
>> Loren (01:09:20):
May God's peace be with you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:09:22):
And also.
>> Loren Richmond (01:09:29):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But
(01:09:50):
before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to the
POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this
out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.
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