April 16, 2024 • 51 mins
Across American Christianity, there is a shortage of clergy, and this is exacerbated by financial struggles, housing issues, and the emotional toll of being a pastor. In this episode, Carol Howard joins the show to talk about challenges and trends in clergy health. She also explored the impact of these trends on younger clergy and the need for the church to invest in clergy support. Howard also shares from her book Wounded Pastors, which explores the concept of Family Systems Theory and its application in helping pastors and clergy navigate challenges and dynamics within their congregations. The conversation also touches on the topics of forgiveness, rewriting personal stories, and the potential for post-traumatic growth in the church.
Rev. Carol Howard (@CarolHoward) is the award-winning author of several books, including Wounded Pastors: Navigating Burnout, Finding Healing and Discerning the Future of your Ministry (Westminster John Knox) and Healing Spiritual Wounds: Reconnecting with a Loving God after Experiencing a Hurtful Church (HarperOne). Carol is a frequent contributor to books, websites, magazines, and journals. She was a regular columnist at the Christian Century where her blog was hosted. She’s a Presbyterian (USA) minister in a village church outside of New York City.
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Guest Host / Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Executive Producer
Danny Burton - Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:05):
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church into the 21st century.
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
(00:27):
Now here's your host, Lauren Richmond Junior.
>> Loren (00:33):
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today we're
welcoming Carol Howard to the show. Reverend Carol
Howard is the award winning author of several books,
including Wounded pastors, navigating Burnout,
Finding, healing, and discerning the future of your ministry, and
healing spiritual wounds, reconnecting with a loving
God after experiencing a hurtful
church. Carol is a frequent contributor
(00:56):
to books, websites, magazines, and journals.
She was a regular columnist at the Christian Century,
where her blog was hosted. She's a
Presbyterian Peace USA minister in a village
church outside of New York City. Let's welcome Carol
to the show.
(01:18):
Uh, all right.
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Loren
Richmond junior, and today I'm pleased to welcome
Reverend carol Howard to the show. Thanks so much for being
here.
>> Carol Howard (01:30):
It's great to be here. Thank you so much for the
invitation. Yeah.
>> Loren (01:35):
Glad to have you. So, just for our listeners today, I am recording
from home with the kids, home from spring break. So
there may be some guest voices in the
background. So I appreciate your
patience and continue to listen through here as we have this
conversation with Carol. But, uh, Carol, I appreciate
your presence here. Anything else you'd like our listeners to know about
(01:55):
you?
>> Carol Howard (01:57):
Um, well, no,
not too much. I was trying to
just think of something fascinating and
interesting, but I don't know.
I was always bad at that party game.
>> Loren (02:11):
It's so much exhausting trying to think about
what makes that whole.
What's so special about me for those kind of things.
>> Carol Howard (02:21):
Right, right, right. I can tell
you like my favorite
food. I don't know.
>> Loren (02:28):
What is your favorite food?
How about that?
>> Carol Howard (02:30):
Okay. I would say I like
italian food. It's good.
You know? So, like, lately I've
been like, my favorite food will change every day,
but lately I've been really
wanting some, like,
lasagna. Um, what about you? What's your
favorite food? Yeah, my six year old,
(02:52):
probably salmon.
>> Loren (02:53):
Uh, my six year old son is, like, obsessed right now with dad.
What's your favorite food? He's always asking us that, so.
And he's like, my favorite food is chicken nuggets. Like, shocking for
a six year old.
>> Carol Howard (03:03):
Right, right.
>> Loren (03:06):
So what about you? What's your favorite
food? Buffalo wings.
>> Carol Howard (03:11):
Oh, yeah.
>> Loren (03:12):
Love a good, good buffalo wing.
Not too crazy spicy, but a little
kick is good. And like, the messier the
better. Like, to me, it's like more fun if I'm just come out looking like
a, you know, like a toddler.
>> Carol Howard (03:28):
Yeah. You know, I'm a vegetarian, but
actually buffalo wild wings has
these cauliflower.
They're delicious. They're so
good. I love them.
>> Loren (03:41):
And you can, if you're into the mess, you can probably get into
the mess there too, with.
>> Carol Howard (03:45):
Oh, yeah, completely. They put all the same
spices and rubs.
>> Loren (03:50):
Um, it's great.
All right, well, this is not a food podcast, so we'll
keep going there.
>> Carol Howard (03:55):
Okay.
>> Loren (03:57):
Share, if you would, about your faith journey, what
that's looked like in the past and what that looks like today.
>> Carol Howard (04:04):
Well, let's see. I grew up
very, very
conservative, um,
fundamentalist, southern Baptist, the
mean kind of Baptist. I guess there's all
kinds of. I was with
the mean kind, um,
and so, which
(04:26):
didn't work very well since I was also
called to ministry. So they didn't really believe
in women ministers. And so
I always felt really bad about that.
And I went to a fundamentalist Bible
college and,
um, and went
to Moody Bible institute
(04:48):
in Chicago.
And, um, it was
difficult because, you know,
basically there are a lot of, like,
homeschool kids or kids who went to
international mission schools or whatever there.
>> Loren (05:04):
Yeah. Ah.
>> Carol Howard (05:05):
And I was just kind of like a regular public school
kid, so I didn't
really know what it was going to be
like and to live with all those rules and
stuff. So I didn't, I didn't,
I didn't do very well there.
Um, but thankfully, while I was there, I did
(05:25):
meet somebody who encouraged me
to join a mainline denomination
and go to seminary. And,
um, so that was good.
That was good. Philip Yancey was my Sunday school
teacher.
>> Loren (05:39):
Wow.
There.
>> Carol Howard (05:40):
So, yeah, yeah, so, so there
were, there were a lot of good things that happened, um,
while I was there. And, uh, so
now I'm, um, a Presbyterian.
>> Loren (05:52):
Uh, I can't remember if I told.
You this or another. Moody
graduate.
>> Carol Howard (05:58):
Yeah.
>> Loren (05:59):
Um, growing up fundamental baptist
myself, like, moody, I always had, like, such an aura of,
like, people who went to Moody were like the true,
whole people we are. So I am
just know that I am still impressed by your
holiness
(06:20):
spiritual practices that are meaningful for you. Something you
don't mind sharing.
>> Carol Howard (06:25):
Um, well, there are a lot,
probably journaling
is the most, writing, uh,
is the most. I'm learning to breathe,
like, use my breath a lot
more, you know, in stressful situations and
things like that. So I wouldn't say that's
(06:45):
my favorite at this point, but it's
helpful.
>> Loren (06:48):
Mhm.
>> Carol Howard (06:49):
Um, but certainly journaling.
>> Loren (06:51):
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, this is all. We're already off to
a good start, so I'm looking forward to our continued
conversation here. So I had Carolyn, uh,
brought her on the pod again to talk about, uh,
her book and also kind of the topic of clergy
health. So let's begin just kind of
talking about clergy trends. And I
(07:13):
know there's been some recent data, uh, released
by the Hartford Institute,
um, about overall clergy
health. Certainly we're seeing a lot about clergy
shortages.
Um, I was listening to, speaking of.
Them southern Baptist podcast, and I was.
Kind of shocked just about how
(07:34):
the.
Clergy shortage is everywhere. Uh, even in
the southern Baptist tradition, there's a real
serious clergy shortage.
I guess, broadly speaking. What are your initial
thoughts, or what have you been thinking about related to these trends and how
they impact clergy?
>> Carol Howard (07:53):
Well, I guess it's not a surprise that there's a
shortage. There's been a big
transition, I know, in
our, um, denomination
Presbyterian church, which I think
has some of the same sort of,
um, trends.
They were asking for three years of
(08:15):
a master's, which makes sense.
And then, and then you had to go
to get a CPE,
which I know people love
that. And then you
really needed to do an
internship, and a year long internship
was best. And so you're
(08:36):
like, coming out of the place
with four years of
seminary debt. Um,
and a lot of us were saying, you know,
we can't do this. We don't get paid
like you can't. And then we
have a bunch of ordination exams on top of
that. And so people would be
(08:59):
stalling to get a job for, you
know, even longer, um,
just to pass these ords. And,
you know, it's not like the bar exam.
We don't. We're not getting a big paycheck at the end of
it. And so really,
the amount of money that we
had to go into debt in
(09:21):
order to get a, ah, salary, that
wasn't usually, um,
it wasn't usually even up
to the teacher
salaries. Um,
it's not sustainable. And then,
um. So then when you start talking to college
(09:43):
students who are really interested in the
ministry, you kind of have to say,
well, be careful, and
even I'm going to be.
There are seminaries who I did not
pay any tuition at all,
which is incredible. But you still have to
(10:03):
live, you still have to eat, and you still have to.
So, um, it's
just really expensive.
So you had that sort of going on. And at the
same time, there's a crisis
of status. When
people ask, um,
(10:24):
what you do, it's kind of embarrassing
because my daughter
doesn't usually tell people that I'm a minister
because, um. Uh,
she said, it's not because I'm ashamed of who you
are or what you do. She said,
what I'm worried about is what people think you
are after saying it.
(10:46):
And, um, with so many,
uh, scandals and so many horrible
things that have gone on, people
have this ideal that we are,
um, all money
grubbing, terrible
people. So there's
(11:06):
this kind of crisis in status that's going
along with this financial crisis.
Um, and then sort of
nationally, there
is, uh,
attendance is going down, um,
and budgets are
(11:27):
harder to keep up with, and buildings are
getting older, and so we
have this kind, um, of trifecta
happening. And so we walk
into the church, and even though this has
been going on for 50 years, they're kind of blaming it
on the pastor who walks in yesterday.
It's like, well, hey, you've been,
(11:50):
uh. You've been putting off this maintenance for a
lot longer than, you know, since I've been
here, so.
And I don't want to, like, I just
feel like I just piled on.
There is also tremendous,
wonderful things about being a minister, too, which
(12:10):
is why I'm still here. But I'm just answering
the question.
>> Loren (12:14):
Yeah, no, I am still
pro pastor, but I think the real
challenges. I'd agree with everything you said
there. I'm thinking, as someone who,
similarly to you, I think of
my eight semesters in seminary, I think I only actually
paid a dime, like three or five of
those seminaries, I can't remember. So I didn't really necessarily come out
(12:36):
with a lot of debt load, per se. But,
you know, I've thought about it otherwise in my more
cynical moments, that it's not
necessarily even the. Even the debt or lack
thereof. It's like, you know, four years of my life that I
might have gotten another degree or, you know,
advanced my career. Otherwise, not the. Not
to discount or diminish. Like, I
(12:59):
really appreciate the MDIV and what I learned there.
Um, but those are serious challenges.
And especially when you think about, you know, on top
of, like you said, the institutional
decline, um, the
challenges of, you know, of
collapse in many ways, right, of churches
and denominations and institutions.
(13:22):
Um, you know, I'm thinking about, as
I referenced already in
that Harford Institute study, there
was a surprising
amount of clergy who seem to be doing quite well. And if
I remember correctly, it was.
Something about established
clergy.
(13:42):
I don't remember the exact numbers, but clergy who have been in the
game, so to speak, a long time or a while
soon to be happier or more content than
those who were early on in their
career. So do you have any
sense about what that might be about?
>> Carol Howard (14:00):
Yeah, I mean,
um, I
can guess. One thing is, you
know, if you bought your house
a while ago or if you're living in a manse, you
have the housing issue, at least here in. I'm in New
York City or outside of New York City,
(14:20):
so that the housing issue is a big one
around here.
Um, so that has a
big determining, uh,
factor. Um, if you're trying to
buy a house on a salary
right now,
(14:40):
it's really difficult. Um,
and so I think that,
uh, um,
with the cost of housing going up so much
with also clergy
salaries staying stagnant
for, um, so long, uh,
(15:03):
it's just not feasible
for clergy. And then,
um, so
that's just one aspect.
Um, there is a lot of ageism when it
comes to, uh, clergy.
Um, and that's difficult.
(15:24):
Uh, I think,
um, another thing that's happening is
there's this sense that,
I mean, I serve a church that
has been open since
1680.
>> Loren (15:40):
Wow.
>> Carol Howard (15:41):
Yeah. So, um,
long time. And our churches have
been
surviving for a long, long time,
and yet oftentimes
we'll get, um, not we in particular,
but clergy.
>> Loren (15:59):
Hm.
>> Carol Howard (16:00):
We'll get this business person that
comes in and they're like, oh, you know,
I've been, you know, doing my business
for, you know, 20
years, so I know better.
Or, you know, we'll start,
you know, we have just such a highly
capitalistic society that
(16:22):
we have this sense that, you know, the business people can
save us. And so I think that's kind of
frustrating. Um, so there's a lot
of things, I believe,
uh, that are hitting
particularly young clergy.
Um, you know,
(16:42):
many times, um,
uh,
the age of our congregants
are getting older, and so,
um, they don't quite always understand the
challenges that young clergy are going through.
>> Loren (17:00):
Right.
>> Carol Howard (17:02):
So, yeah, there's just a lot. There's a
lot that younger clergy have to deal
with, I think. And
the, um,
many times, younger clergy not
only have student loan debt from
seminary, but they had additional
(17:22):
debt from undergraduate,
um, older
clergy may not have. So it's a
completely, completely
different,
um, financial
situation, and the
church hasn't dealt with
(17:43):
that yet. And our
denomination, the presbyterian
church, they just. This
week, um.
>> Loren (17:52):
Yeah, I saw this.
>> Carol Howard (17:54):
Yeah, yeah, there's, you know, the
Internet's blowing up because, uh,
they, they've just, um,
said that, you know, clergy with
families are, they came out
with how much, um, they would need to be
paying an insurance. And it's like
65% of, you know,
(18:16):
our salaries are going to
insurance. So I mean, clearly we just
have not kept up, you know, and,
um, so
it's a real tragedy.
>> Loren (18:30):
Yeah. I laugh about
the age thing because, uh, I guess
I can say my, well, you know, I feel like in
mainline world I was like, too young, too young, too young, too
young. And then now that I'm 40,
41, like in any other
context, like I'm over the hill.
>> Carol Howard (18:51):
Yeah. Yeah. It's really fascinating, isn't
it?
>> Loren (18:54):
Yeah. Um, let's,
gosh, I feel like we.
Could keep rolling on this like negative train for the
whole episode and I don't want this
to. There are good things, there are good things, but I mean, the
challenges are for real. I mean, uh, yeah, I saw
a post from a, uh, pastor I
know in Chicago, like Chicago
(19:16):
Chicago. And he was saying that like some churches are thinking
about turning their Sunday school classrooms
into like apartments for their clergy, essentially,
which, you know, makes sense because I don't know how
in the world, like, especially if you're talking
like Chicago, New York, I mean,
these big.
Cities, I mean, I mean, I live.
(19:37):
In Denver Metro and I
interviewed recently for church and I don't want to say how
much they're offering, but it's like this is not anywhere near a
living wage of what you should be
offering.
>> Carol Howard (19:50):
Uh, right, right.
>> Loren (19:51):
So the challenges are real.
Um, and I think we'd both agree.
Right.
I, uh, was just talking to
a.
Denominational leader in my context
yesterday and he just kind of emphasized
like since.
COVID these trends have really kind of just
been exacerbated.
>> Carol Howard (20:12):
Right, absolutely. And,
um,
not only have
the budget challenges and also
the attendance challenges,
um, but also the
housing and inflation and everything's gone
(20:32):
up. And uh, so,
you know, when you listen to economists, they'll say,
oh, well, the salaries have gone up
right along with inflation. And I'm like, oh, not, not
for us, but I really
believe, and I don't know,
people deny this all the time,
(20:52):
but we are sitting on like
mountains of money.
>> Loren (20:57):
Mhm.
>> Carol Howard (20:58):
Like just mountains of money,
all these pockets of money. And you
know, people will say, oh, well, those are designated for certain
things and, yeah, okay, but
somebody needs to start putting money
into clergy
and clergy housing and
(21:18):
subsistence and, you know,
like, because we're
not going to have churches if we don't have
pastors. Well, we're just not. And I know
everybody's like, oh, we need to rethink this, right, blah,
blah, blah. But it's, we're
just, we can't starve our clergy and
expect to have churches.
>> Loren (21:40):
I think.
>> Carol Howard (21:40):
And I know, you know, everybody wants to deny.
That's the truth. But it's
the truth.
>> Loren (21:48):
I think the demographic or the. Not the
demographic, um, I think the
dynamic that I worry about is
essentially what I feel like you probably seen
in some context where just, like, because the church
is paying so little or offering basically next to
nothing, clergy kind of, like, undercut the
market.
>> Carol Howard (22:09):
Uh-huh.
>> Loren (22:11):
Someone is desperate to have a job or wants to be
pastor, so they'll go work for next to
nothing. Or the church will
essentially just hire someone, elevate someone out of their
congregation, which I don't want to discount that,
because obviously
folks can have ministry skills and
giftings, whether or not they have an M div, for
(22:33):
instance.
>> Carol Howard (22:33):
Right, right.
>> Loren (22:34):
Um, but it also does kind of like, using an
economic term, again, does kind of, like, depress the market.
So it can be a real challenge there.
>> Carol Howard (22:44):
Yeah, yeah, it can. Um, and,
you know, I think that that goes back to.
I mean, in our
system, this really weird thing was happening
where we were expecting more and
more internships
and CPE credits, and
(23:05):
it was costing more and more, but at the
same time, we were growing these kind
of robust, um, lay
pastor, uh, uh, programs
where. And it's like,
well, why would anybody become
a trained, um, um,
minister if you could just be a lay pastor
(23:27):
and not have to go through the same sort of hoops
and in the same sort of, which.
Which is fine if we. If
that's a strategic right plan.
But it seemed like we had these two
tracks going, and we weren't talking to each other.
And so now. Now our seminaries
(23:48):
are emptying out, and,
um, we just don't always
have, and I'm 100%
with you, like, I train,
um, lay preachers and
incredibly thankful for them. So I
don't want to diminish that. But
do we want an educated clergy?
(24:10):
And if we do, we need to start putting
our money and our resources and,
um. And
our power behind that.
>> Loren (24:21):
Yeah. Because we're really advocating for those who
are jumping on, Carol and I. We're really advocating for
a both and situation.
We want to advocate for, or we want to empower
laity and ministry and that sort of thing. But we also are trying
to advocate for, like, hey, let's. You know, let's.
If we're going to say, like, uh, ordained
(24:43):
clergy, um, matter. Like,
let's put our money where our mouth is too. Right?
>> Carol Howard (24:50):
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Well,
yeah.
>> Loren (24:53):
One of the things that I think is important in this conversation,
um, is the idea of
controlling what we can control. Right. And that's
where I really appreciate family systems
theory in, at least as I understand it.
One of the most profound principles, to me at
least, is like, thinking about what can I control?
(25:15):
Um, so you obviously a, uh, good familiarity
with that concept, and we're going to talk about here in
a moment your book, which features a lot of
family systems theory, but talk a little bit about
your experience with family systems theory and how you think it
can be a help to pastors and clergy,
you know, especially as we think about all these
challenges and dynamics we've been talking
(25:37):
about.
>> Carol Howard (25:38):
Yeah. Well, I definitely
am indebted to, uh, my
friend James Minimore, who co
authored the book. And he's a
therapist. And it was interesting
because I was writing this book,
um, way before I came to my present
church, and he was writing a book
(26:01):
as well. And, um, James is
a therapist with the Good Samaritan
center, or the Samaritan
center, and he works
outside of our church. And so
we were reflecting on the books
that we were writing, and we decided to,
(26:21):
uh, merge them. And so I learned a
tremendous amount from James.
And a lot of
what we went through with COVID really
reflects family system theories.
>> Loren (26:35):
Yeah.
>> Carol Howard (26:36):
And, um, you know,
so if you think of, um,
uh, our churches not as
individuals, but as
organizations, as, um, these
systems, you can start
to see some patterns that are
taking place. So there
(26:58):
are many things, um, like,
uh, homeostasis, like,
uh, uh, these systems,
these organizations, they really like to
maintain homeostasis.
And we talk about it like a rubber
band on the wrist.
(27:19):
The harder you pull on that rubber
band when it snaps back, the harder it
hurts. And the more
it wants to come back to
homeostasis, wants
to go back to that shape and form
it used to be. So
what we had. And also when we
(27:41):
have these systems, um,
fear really does
an anxiety, does
something, um,
uh, it really stresses out this
system. So oftentimes when you have
fear and anxiety, you have a lot
of polarization. You have people
(28:02):
pitting against people. You
have, um, uh, people cutting
people off, people getting really angry
and tense, people fleeing.
You have the whole fight, flight or flee
sort of situation that happens.
And so here we
were on this trajectory
(28:24):
that, again, has been
happening, um, way before
you became a minister, and even I became a
minister, and that is,
you know, this decline.
And, um,
it had been going on for a while, and then
(28:44):
COVID hits, and it
accelerated church closings. It
accelerated the fear,
really, I think, for a lot of
congregations. And
so when that
anxiety sort of spiked,
um, then all of these things began to happen.
(29:07):
People began to,
um, uh,
resist any sort of change.
They began to polarize.
They began to fight with one another.
Um, and so
it's been a very
difficult, even
(29:29):
traumatic time, I think, for a lot of
clergy. And, um,
everybody kind of assumed that as
soon as we opened up, it would be fine.
Everything would be.
>> Loren (29:41):
I did go back to.
>> Carol Howard (29:43):
Yeah, I did, too. Everything will be back to
normal. And then you're like, oh, this is not
normal.
So. So there is this
just extreme challenges that we're going
through, and there's not
a lot of support because then, um, at the same time,
we also have, um, you
(30:06):
know, all, uh, of the.
>> Loren (30:08):
Other things that we talked about.
Yeah.
>> Carol Howard (30:10):
Ah, yeah. So, uh, you
know, a lot of clergy are
suffering right now, and, um.
And, you know, the good thing about
it is, well, there's
no. I don't want to, like, slap a
happy face on top of it. But
(30:31):
the reason why we called our
book wounded pastors is
because of that kind of
jungian theory that Henry Nowan,
Henri Nouwen picked, um, up so
beautifully. Um, that
idea of wounded healers, you
know, and, you
(30:53):
know, we're in this time
of post trauma,
and, um, we
can have some growth out of it. We will
have some growth.
>> Loren (31:05):
Yeah.
>> Carol Howard (31:05):
It's just going to take a while.
>> Loren (31:07):
Yeah. Well, I think that's an
important. I think that's such an important
point to speak about,
and I want to talk more about that.
But there's also some quotes here from the
book I want to highlight just
because they resonated with me.
So here, this one I shouldn't say highlight. This one
(31:29):
I hated, but I know it's true.
Church members will take as much of your energy, time
and work as they can. This is not because they're evil, but because
they're human. And boy, oh, boy,
does that slap a lot of us pastors
in the face. Right? Uh, as
much as I understand that and appreciate that quote, I
(31:50):
also don't like it. So
talk through that with me and for our listeners.
>> Carol Howard (31:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, most
of us who are clergy,
or a lot of us as clergy, you know,
you do have undeniably, like, some
narcissistic, you know, clergy out
there, and, um, but I
think a lot of clergy like,
(32:18):
we. We want to be servants. We want to.
We want to serve the church, we want to give
to the church, we want to love the church.
You know, we want to take up our cross daily. You know,
uh, we have all these, like, images m of.
Of servanthood.
Um, but one of the
(32:39):
issues that can come up
with that is we
end up, um, really hurting
ourselves and hurting our families
and all of that. And
we, again, live in a hyper capitalist
society where people
(33:00):
are trying to get as much productivity
for as little amount of money as possible.
And people live in that world
every single day. And so when they
come to us, they want us to have as much
productivity with as little amount,
as money as possible. And,
(33:20):
um, you know, and again, it's
not evil. It's just
the way that our world is working
right now. And so m
people will end
up, um, trying,
whether they're trying to do the best for the church or
(33:41):
they're trying to, or they're just in that
mindset kind of constantly.
Um, uh, it can happen.
It can happen. Maybe I shouldn't have said
it will happen because there
are some great churches out there.
>> Loren (33:57):
Yeah, that's immortal.
>> Carol Howard (33:59):
Uh, but it can.
>> Loren (34:00):
Yeah, it definitely can. So this other quote
here, um, you write,
what happens if we don't forgive? And I think,
man, I've been there. I'll just confess, like, I've
been there.
Holding a grudge against,
you know, a congregant, a parishioner.
Uh, you're right. You know, what happens if we don't forgive? Unfortunately, not
(34:22):
forgiving tethers us to bitterness and to
the people who have hurt us.
In extreme cases, a person might not just be a wounded
pastor, but a wound collecting pastor.
Such people never seek closure. Instead, they
persist in, uh, seeing malice
and innocent acts, looking for ways to be offended
(34:42):
and becoming ever more sensitive to
slights. Uh, I think that's such a powerful
quote. And I'll bookend this here with
something I read from another, not your same
Presbyterian, but Presbyterian, uh, who used to
be in your neck of the woods.
The late Tim Keller,
who certainly I.
Would hold some different theological principles then, but he said something that
(35:04):
really resonated with me about the importance of forgiveness. Because
if we don't forgive, then our actions are
inspired by not, um,
for reconciliation, but retribution.
Um, so talk about forgiveness and how
that can impact and why that's so
important.
>> Carol Howard (35:25):
Yeah, I mean, forgiveness is hard. It's
just a hard and tricky subject. I
just read, ah, kaia
oaks, um, just wrote, ah,
a book. I think it's called sorry, not sorry, which is really
interesting. But, ah, one book
that really impacted me was Desmond
(35:45):
and Mephone Tutu's book.
Um, that's a father and daughter bishop. Ah,
Desmond Tutu, um, wrote,
ah, four fold path of forgiveness
called a book of forgiving.
And, um, so that's
just had this tremendous impact on my life.
(36:06):
And of course, they're talking about the truth and
reconciliation in South
Africa and these really
extreme, um,
acts of heroic forgiveness.
And they kind of explain
over and over again that forgiveness isn't
(36:26):
for the other person, it's for
you. Um,
and then I was reading about wound
collecting, which I thought was just sort of this
fascinating idea. And it was a
psychologist who was looking
at, um, he was kind of looking
(36:46):
at terrorists.
>> Loren (36:47):
Mhm.
>> Carol Howard (36:48):
And then he began to look at like,
incels and look at,
um, different people.
And he came up with this thing
of like, wound collectors. And
we all know these people, not the
terrorists, but these people
who cannot let it go
(37:10):
no matter what. And so they begin
to hold grudges and more and more
grudges, and then they
begin to see things and
people who don't
mean to be even doing
anything wrong.
So it's just a trap we can get
(37:32):
into and become miserable. Um,
so forgiveness is tricky. And
we try to suss
out the different sorts of forgiveness,
whether it's legal forgiveness or
for forgiveness, or whether it's,
um, theological forgiveness or, you know.
And so there's different types of
(37:54):
forgiveness.
Um, but certainly
for me personally, uh,
it's still something that's
important to strive for.
>> Loren (38:09):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's good. So another
quote here. And again, I hate this quote, but I think
it's important you're right.
Or you and James. Right. Uh, as we continue the process
toward healing, we need to go back to our stories,
reclaim our character in them, rewrite them,
and find meaning through them.
(38:29):
So I'll speak for myself here, Carol,
as, uh, someone who, like you, grew
up in a very concerted context, for me, at
least. Ah, I really. I wouldn't
say, like, accepted, but I really found a way to, like, make
peace with, like, my
past.
Um, not in a way that, like.
(38:52):
I necessarily appreciate
everything that I was taught, but I have
this weird appreciation. I
don't know if that even makes sense.
>> Carol Howard (39:02):
Yeah.
>> Loren (39:03):
For like, you
know, like, I have a.
Like, I have a King James bible that I just
hold onto dearly,
uh, because it's so familiar
and, um, meaningful for me. Yet
also there's
this weird. There's certainly this weird dissonance
(39:24):
there. Uh, but talk more about that and
what you mean by that quote.
>> Carol Howard (39:31):
Yeah, I mean, I had to do
a similar thing. It was really interesting. Right after
I left moody, I know
that I definitely kind of
rejected everything, and I wouldn't even
tell people where I went to school.
Um, I would try to hide it and
(39:51):
that sort of thing. And then at
some point, like, you have
to sort of come back to it and embrace
it and
realize it's part of you,
even though it doesn't, um,
it's still part of you. Right.
(40:13):
And, um, even if you reject it, even if you don't
agree with it, it's a
peace, and it's gonna miss.
It's gonna be missing unless
you embrace, uh, it again. But you can't
embrace it in the same way. Right. So you have
to begin to think about retelling, um,
(40:34):
that story. And
the stories are
incredibly powerful in
how we tell our stories, especially
stories when we've been wounded.
Um. Uh, the
way in which we tell our stories
will inform, um, our
(40:56):
healing. Viktor, uh,
frankl,
he wrote man's search for meaning, and, um,
uh, just such a
powerful book. I go back to it. I think I feel
like I read it every year, um, and learn something
different from it every time. He's
(41:16):
just, uh, amazing.
But he talks about this,
rewriting your story and
finding meaning.
>> Loren (41:27):
Um.
>> Carol Howard (41:31):
And doing that. Um,
sometimes you can even do
it. I was able to
write books about things, and
you sort of reflect back.
>> Loren (41:47):
Um.
>> Carol Howard (41:48):
I'm kind of hearing in my ear
there are so many, uh,
womanist theologians
who would say,
um, I think, who would fight back on
that. The idea of
trying to redeem suffering.
(42:09):
Um, and I want to
honor that. Uh, but
I also, uh, just want
to talk from my personal experience,
the sense of when
I've gone through difficult
issues, difficult problems, if
(42:30):
I've been able to retell that story in
a way in which I'm not a victim,
but I'm a survivor.
>> Loren (42:38):
Yeah.
>> Carol Howard (42:38):
And. And then
a, uh, wounded healer, you know?
Um, it can be extremely
powerful, not only for, you know,
the pastor, but for churches.
>> Loren (42:53):
Right.
>> Carol Howard (42:53):
And their identity.
>> Loren (42:55):
Right. Well, this is a great conversation,
and for sake of time, let's leave it there.
The name of the book is wounded pastors.
Hopefully, uh, I have the right title here. Uh, was it
navigating burnout, finding healing, and discerning
the future of your ministry? Is that right?
Okay, good. I was, like.
>> Carol Howard (43:14):
I had to look because I forget it, too.
>> Loren (43:16):
Hopefully, the subtitle hasn't changed since I've seen it.
>> Carol Howard (43:20):
Nope. Nope.
>> Loren (43:20):
Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some closing
questions.
All right, we're back with Reverend Carol Howard. So thanks
so much for this conversation. Um,
again, I want to recommend her book, wounded
pastors with James Fenimore.
So check that out. Uh, Carol, I always tell folks, you can take these
(43:41):
questions seriously or not if you'd like
to, but, uh, if you're a pope for a day,
what might that day look like for you?
>> Carol Howard (43:50):
Oh, wow. That would be a
good day.
Definitely, like,
liquidate the assets, give the assets
to victims of pedophilia,
put those pedophiles in prison.
I would definitely ordain
women and, uh, allow
(44:13):
for LGBTQ,
um, marriage. Be a good day.
I'm sure I could get it all done.
>> Loren (44:21):
Speaking of, uh, um,
assets, you think? I feel like the catholic church would have enough assets
where they could, uh, uh, fund clergy for
quite a long time, right?
>> Carol Howard (44:32):
Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so,
yeah.
>> Loren (44:36):
Um, um, a theologian or historical christian figure
you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
>> Carol Howard (44:43):
Well, you know, I did this, uh, uh,
I would. I would have said Meister
Eckhart just because
he's been the person who
has really,
um, been the most
influential on my
ministry, I think. Um, but
(45:05):
julian of norwich, too. I just did
a little tiny devotional on
julian of Norwich. And I wrote it during,
um, uh, I wrote it during
COVID-19 and it
was so helpful because
she also wrote during, um,
the black plague or went through.
(45:29):
Had her visions soon after.
Anyways, super, super helpful. So I
have probably my star card I'll stick with.
>> Loren (45:37):
Well, those are two good options.
Yeah.
What do you think history will remember from our current time
and place?
>> Carol Howard (45:45):
Oh, ah, that's a good question.
I mean, I'm hoping that,
um, I talked about
post traumatic growth,
and I really believe that
we are going to go through a spiritual
deepening where we begin to
(46:06):
understand God in a different way,
where we begin to connect
with creation in a different way. I mean,
we definitely need,
um, to begin to think about our
environment,
um, and the way in which we
care for, uh,
(46:29):
creation. So I see a lot
of really interesting things
coming up, uh, about that.
Um, uh, you know, I just
believe that this is going
to be a hard, hard, very fruitful
time,
um, where we begin to
(46:52):
do a lot of correcting
of,
um, uh,
what we've kind of veered
off on the last.
I don't know how many years,
um, you know.
>> Loren (47:10):
Yeah.
>> Carol Howard (47:11):
When church is all about, like,
I don't know,
worship wars.
>> Loren (47:19):
Yeah.
>> Carol Howard (47:19):
Ah, whatever. We've been talking about, you
know, making sure the gays
are in their place.
Yeah. I mean, you know, that's
always. This is the main thing we've been talking about for so
many years. So we just need to
do a lot of correcting, and I think
we're going to. I think
(47:41):
we're there, or, uh, we're in that
crisis moment.
>> Loren (47:45):
This leads into my final question.
What do you hope then? You've kind of
spoken to. Maybe not. What do you hope?
What do you hope to see? What? Answer that
question. How you'd like to, I suppose.
>> Carol Howard (48:01):
Yeah. Well, even now, if
you think about all the congregations in
the world, um, you know, the
church at large is
probably one of the largest
landowners, uh,
globally. And,
um, if
(48:23):
we begin to take that seriously and we begin
to care, um,
for our,
uh, world, and then if we
begin to help our congregants
do that, uh, we could have
this huge impact, um,
(48:44):
if we can teach our children how
to connect with nature,
and, um,
they're going through this tremendous nature
deficit disorder, uh, right
now. Um, so there
are just so many things that we can
do, uh, particularly, I think,
(49:06):
with the environment and
connecting, um,
with the environment in a new way. I think that's
our big crisis that's coming up,
and, um, it may give us
an opportunity to think outside of
ourselves a little bit. Be good.
>> Loren (49:25):
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I suppose that was not my last question. My last question is,
actually, where can people find out about you and connect
with you?
Get the book, all that?
>> Carol Howard (49:36):
M. Yeah, I think,
uh, my.
Oh, there's a wounded pastor's, um,
website, so you can look
for that, I guess. Um, I have a
website, but it's sort of in transition right now.
Um, but
(49:57):
I'm on Facebook and Twitter and
Instagram, Carol
Howard, so if you
ever want to talk to me. We
connected through Facebook, right?
>> Loren (50:09):
Yeah, I believe so.
>> Carol Howard (50:11):
Yeah. Yeah, I'm easy to
contact.
>> Loren (50:15):
Well, I really appreciate the conversation. Really
appreciate the book. Hope it's helpful to
other pastors like myself. So always leave folks with
the word of peace. So may God's peace be with
you.
>> Carol Howard (50:28):
Thank you. Also with you.
>> Loren (50:29):
Amen. Um.
>> Paul (50:32):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
To learn more about Loren or the podcast,
visit future dash christian.com.
One more thing before you go. Do us a favor
and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're
feeling especially generous, leave a review.
It really helps us get the word out to more people about the
(50:52):
podcast. The
Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
arts and resonate media. Our episodes were
mixed by Danny Burton and the production support is
provided by Paul Romaglevitt. Thanks
and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church into the 21st century.
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
(00:27):
Now here's your host, Lauren Richmond Junior.
>> Loren (00:33):
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today we're
welcoming Carol Howard to the show. Reverend Carol
Howard is the award winning author of several books,
including Wounded pastors, navigating Burnout,
Finding, healing, and discerning the future of your ministry, and
healing spiritual wounds, reconnecting with a loving
God after experiencing a hurtful
church. Carol is a frequent contributor
(00:56):
to books, websites, magazines, and journals.
She was a regular columnist at the Christian Century,
where her blog was hosted. She's a
Presbyterian Peace USA minister in a village
church outside of New York City. Let's welcome Carol
to the show.
(01:18):
Uh, all right.
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Loren
Richmond junior, and today I'm pleased to welcome
Reverend carol Howard to the show. Thanks so much for being
here.
>> Carol Howard (01:30):
It's great to be here. Thank you so much for the
invitation. Yeah.
>> Loren (01:35):
Glad to have you. So, just for our listeners today, I am recording
from home with the kids, home from spring break. So
there may be some guest voices in the
background. So I appreciate your
patience and continue to listen through here as we have this
conversation with Carol. But, uh, Carol, I appreciate
your presence here. Anything else you'd like our listeners to know about
(01:55):
you?
>> Carol Howard (01:57):
Um, well, no,
not too much. I was trying to
just think of something fascinating and
interesting, but I don't know.
I was always bad at that party game.
>> Loren (02:11):
It's so much exhausting trying to think about
what makes that whole.
What's so special about me for those kind of things.
>> Carol Howard (02:21):
Right, right, right. I can tell
you like my favorite
food. I don't know.
>> Loren (02:28):
What is your favorite food?
How about that?
>> Carol Howard (02:30):
Okay. I would say I like
italian food. It's good.
You know? So, like, lately I've
been like, my favorite food will change every day,
but lately I've been really
wanting some, like,
lasagna. Um, what about you? What's your
favorite food? Yeah, my six year old,
(02:52):
probably salmon.
>> Loren (02:53):
Uh, my six year old son is, like, obsessed right now with dad.
What's your favorite food? He's always asking us that, so.
And he's like, my favorite food is chicken nuggets. Like, shocking for
a six year old.
>> Carol Howard (03:03):
Right, right.
>> Loren (03:06):
So what about you? What's your favorite
food? Buffalo wings.
>> Carol Howard (03:11):
Oh, yeah.
>> Loren (03:12):
Love a good, good buffalo wing.
Not too crazy spicy, but a little
kick is good. And like, the messier the
better. Like, to me, it's like more fun if I'm just come out looking like
a, you know, like a toddler.
>> Carol Howard (03:28):
Yeah. You know, I'm a vegetarian, but
actually buffalo wild wings has
these cauliflower.
They're delicious. They're so
good. I love them.
>> Loren (03:41):
And you can, if you're into the mess, you can probably get into
the mess there too, with.
>> Carol Howard (03:45):
Oh, yeah, completely. They put all the same
spices and rubs.
>> Loren (03:50):
Um, it's great.
All right, well, this is not a food podcast, so we'll
keep going there.
>> Carol Howard (03:55):
Okay.
>> Loren (03:57):
Share, if you would, about your faith journey, what
that's looked like in the past and what that looks like today.
>> Carol Howard (04:04):
Well, let's see. I grew up
very, very
conservative, um,
fundamentalist, southern Baptist, the
mean kind of Baptist. I guess there's all
kinds of. I was with
the mean kind, um,
and so, which
(04:26):
didn't work very well since I was also
called to ministry. So they didn't really believe
in women ministers. And so
I always felt really bad about that.
And I went to a fundamentalist Bible
college and,
um, and went
to Moody Bible institute
(04:48):
in Chicago.
And, um, it was
difficult because, you know,
basically there are a lot of, like,
homeschool kids or kids who went to
international mission schools or whatever there.
>> Loren (05:04):
Yeah. Ah.
>> Carol Howard (05:05):
And I was just kind of like a regular public school
kid, so I didn't
really know what it was going to be
like and to live with all those rules and
stuff. So I didn't, I didn't,
I didn't do very well there.
Um, but thankfully, while I was there, I did
(05:25):
meet somebody who encouraged me
to join a mainline denomination
and go to seminary. And,
um, so that was good.
That was good. Philip Yancey was my Sunday school
teacher.
>> Loren (05:39):
Wow.
There.
>> Carol Howard (05:40):
So, yeah, yeah, so, so there
were, there were a lot of good things that happened, um,
while I was there. And, uh, so
now I'm, um, a Presbyterian.
>> Loren (05:52):
Uh, I can't remember if I told.
You this or another. Moody
graduate.
>> Carol Howard (05:58):
Yeah.
>> Loren (05:59):
Um, growing up fundamental baptist
myself, like, moody, I always had, like, such an aura of,
like, people who went to Moody were like the true,
whole people we are. So I am
just know that I am still impressed by your
holiness
(06:20):
spiritual practices that are meaningful for you. Something you
don't mind sharing.
>> Carol Howard (06:25):
Um, well, there are a lot,
probably journaling
is the most, writing, uh,
is the most. I'm learning to breathe,
like, use my breath a lot
more, you know, in stressful situations and
things like that. So I wouldn't say that's
(06:45):
my favorite at this point, but it's
helpful.
>> Loren (06:48):
Mhm.
>> Carol Howard (06:49):
Um, but certainly journaling.
>> Loren (06:51):
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, this is all. We're already off to
a good start, so I'm looking forward to our continued
conversation here. So I had Carolyn, uh,
brought her on the pod again to talk about, uh,
her book and also kind of the topic of clergy
health. So let's begin just kind of
talking about clergy trends. And I
(07:13):
know there's been some recent data, uh, released
by the Hartford Institute,
um, about overall clergy
health. Certainly we're seeing a lot about clergy
shortages.
Um, I was listening to, speaking of.
Them southern Baptist podcast, and I was.
Kind of shocked just about how
(07:34):
the.
Clergy shortage is everywhere. Uh, even in
the southern Baptist tradition, there's a real
serious clergy shortage.
I guess, broadly speaking. What are your initial
thoughts, or what have you been thinking about related to these trends and how
they impact clergy?
>> Carol Howard (07:53):
Well, I guess it's not a surprise that there's a
shortage. There's been a big
transition, I know, in
our, um, denomination
Presbyterian church, which I think
has some of the same sort of,
um, trends.
They were asking for three years of
(08:15):
a master's, which makes sense.
And then, and then you had to go
to get a CPE,
which I know people love
that. And then you
really needed to do an
internship, and a year long internship
was best. And so you're
(08:36):
like, coming out of the place
with four years of
seminary debt. Um,
and a lot of us were saying, you know,
we can't do this. We don't get paid
like you can't. And then we
have a bunch of ordination exams on top of
that. And so people would be
(08:59):
stalling to get a job for, you
know, even longer, um,
just to pass these ords. And,
you know, it's not like the bar exam.
We don't. We're not getting a big paycheck at the end of
it. And so really,
the amount of money that we
had to go into debt in
(09:21):
order to get a, ah, salary, that
wasn't usually, um,
it wasn't usually even up
to the teacher
salaries. Um,
it's not sustainable. And then,
um. So then when you start talking to college
(09:43):
students who are really interested in the
ministry, you kind of have to say,
well, be careful, and
even I'm going to be.
There are seminaries who I did not
pay any tuition at all,
which is incredible. But you still have to
(10:03):
live, you still have to eat, and you still have to.
So, um, it's
just really expensive.
So you had that sort of going on. And at the
same time, there's a crisis
of status. When
people ask, um,
(10:24):
what you do, it's kind of embarrassing
because my daughter
doesn't usually tell people that I'm a minister
because, um. Uh,
she said, it's not because I'm ashamed of who you
are or what you do. She said,
what I'm worried about is what people think you
are after saying it.
(10:46):
And, um, with so many,
uh, scandals and so many horrible
things that have gone on, people
have this ideal that we are,
um, all money
grubbing, terrible
people. So there's
(11:06):
this kind of crisis in status that's going
along with this financial crisis.
Um, and then sort of
nationally, there
is, uh,
attendance is going down, um,
and budgets are
(11:27):
harder to keep up with, and buildings are
getting older, and so we
have this kind, um, of trifecta
happening. And so we walk
into the church, and even though this has
been going on for 50 years, they're kind of blaming it
on the pastor who walks in yesterday.
It's like, well, hey, you've been,
(11:50):
uh. You've been putting off this maintenance for a
lot longer than, you know, since I've been
here, so.
And I don't want to, like, I just
feel like I just piled on.
There is also tremendous,
wonderful things about being a minister, too, which
(12:10):
is why I'm still here. But I'm just answering
the question.
>> Loren (12:14):
Yeah, no, I am still
pro pastor, but I think the real
challenges. I'd agree with everything you said
there. I'm thinking, as someone who,
similarly to you, I think of
my eight semesters in seminary, I think I only actually
paid a dime, like three or five of
those seminaries, I can't remember. So I didn't really necessarily come out
(12:36):
with a lot of debt load, per se. But,
you know, I've thought about it otherwise in my more
cynical moments, that it's not
necessarily even the. Even the debt or lack
thereof. It's like, you know, four years of my life that I
might have gotten another degree or, you know,
advanced my career. Otherwise, not the. Not
to discount or diminish. Like, I
(12:59):
really appreciate the MDIV and what I learned there.
Um, but those are serious challenges.
And especially when you think about, you know, on top
of, like you said, the institutional
decline, um, the
challenges of, you know, of
collapse in many ways, right, of churches
and denominations and institutions.
(13:22):
Um, you know, I'm thinking about, as
I referenced already in
that Harford Institute study, there
was a surprising
amount of clergy who seem to be doing quite well. And if
I remember correctly, it was.
Something about established
clergy.
(13:42):
I don't remember the exact numbers, but clergy who have been in the
game, so to speak, a long time or a while
soon to be happier or more content than
those who were early on in their
career. So do you have any
sense about what that might be about?
>> Carol Howard (14:00):
Yeah, I mean,
um, I
can guess. One thing is, you
know, if you bought your house
a while ago or if you're living in a manse, you
have the housing issue, at least here in. I'm in New
York City or outside of New York City,
(14:20):
so that the housing issue is a big one
around here.
Um, so that has a
big determining, uh,
factor. Um, if you're trying to
buy a house on a salary
right now,
(14:40):
it's really difficult. Um,
and so I think that,
uh, um,
with the cost of housing going up so much
with also clergy
salaries staying stagnant
for, um, so long, uh,
(15:03):
it's just not feasible
for clergy. And then,
um, so
that's just one aspect.
Um, there is a lot of ageism when it
comes to, uh, clergy.
Um, and that's difficult.
(15:24):
Uh, I think,
um, another thing that's happening is
there's this sense that,
I mean, I serve a church that
has been open since
1680.
>> Loren (15:40):
Wow.
>> Carol Howard (15:41):
Yeah. So, um,
long time. And our churches have
been
surviving for a long, long time,
and yet oftentimes
we'll get, um, not we in particular,
but clergy.
>> Loren (15:59):
Hm.
>> Carol Howard (16:00):
We'll get this business person that
comes in and they're like, oh, you know,
I've been, you know, doing my business
for, you know, 20
years, so I know better.
Or, you know, we'll start,
you know, we have just such a highly
capitalistic society that
(16:22):
we have this sense that, you know, the business people can
save us. And so I think that's kind of
frustrating. Um, so there's a lot
of things, I believe,
uh, that are hitting
particularly young clergy.
Um, you know,
(16:42):
many times, um,
uh,
the age of our congregants
are getting older, and so,
um, they don't quite always understand the
challenges that young clergy are going through.
>> Loren (17:00):
Right.
>> Carol Howard (17:02):
So, yeah, there's just a lot. There's a
lot that younger clergy have to deal
with, I think. And
the, um,
many times, younger clergy not
only have student loan debt from
seminary, but they had additional
(17:22):
debt from undergraduate,
um, older
clergy may not have. So it's a
completely, completely
different,
um, financial
situation, and the
church hasn't dealt with
(17:43):
that yet. And our
denomination, the presbyterian
church, they just. This
week, um.
>> Loren (17:52):
Yeah, I saw this.
>> Carol Howard (17:54):
Yeah, yeah, there's, you know, the
Internet's blowing up because, uh,
they, they've just, um,
said that, you know, clergy with
families are, they came out
with how much, um, they would need to be
paying an insurance. And it's like
65% of, you know,
(18:16):
our salaries are going to
insurance. So I mean, clearly we just
have not kept up, you know, and,
um, so
it's a real tragedy.
>> Loren (18:30):
Yeah. I laugh about
the age thing because, uh, I guess
I can say my, well, you know, I feel like in
mainline world I was like, too young, too young, too young, too
young. And then now that I'm 40,
41, like in any other
context, like I'm over the hill.
>> Carol Howard (18:51):
Yeah. Yeah. It's really fascinating, isn't
it?
>> Loren (18:54):
Yeah. Um, let's,
gosh, I feel like we.
Could keep rolling on this like negative train for the
whole episode and I don't want this
to. There are good things, there are good things, but I mean, the
challenges are for real. I mean, uh, yeah, I saw
a post from a, uh, pastor I
know in Chicago, like Chicago
(19:16):
Chicago. And he was saying that like some churches are thinking
about turning their Sunday school classrooms
into like apartments for their clergy, essentially,
which, you know, makes sense because I don't know how
in the world, like, especially if you're talking
like Chicago, New York, I mean,
these big.
Cities, I mean, I mean, I live.
(19:37):
In Denver Metro and I
interviewed recently for church and I don't want to say how
much they're offering, but it's like this is not anywhere near a
living wage of what you should be
offering.
>> Carol Howard (19:50):
Uh, right, right.
>> Loren (19:51):
So the challenges are real.
Um, and I think we'd both agree.
Right.
I, uh, was just talking to
a.
Denominational leader in my context
yesterday and he just kind of emphasized
like since.
COVID these trends have really kind of just
been exacerbated.
>> Carol Howard (20:12):
Right, absolutely. And,
um,
not only have
the budget challenges and also
the attendance challenges,
um, but also the
housing and inflation and everything's gone
(20:32):
up. And uh, so,
you know, when you listen to economists, they'll say,
oh, well, the salaries have gone up
right along with inflation. And I'm like, oh, not, not
for us, but I really
believe, and I don't know,
people deny this all the time,
(20:52):
but we are sitting on like
mountains of money.
>> Loren (20:57):
Mhm.
>> Carol Howard (20:58):
Like just mountains of money,
all these pockets of money. And you
know, people will say, oh, well, those are designated for certain
things and, yeah, okay, but
somebody needs to start putting money
into clergy
and clergy housing and
(21:18):
subsistence and, you know,
like, because we're
not going to have churches if we don't have
pastors. Well, we're just not. And I know
everybody's like, oh, we need to rethink this, right, blah,
blah, blah. But it's, we're
just, we can't starve our clergy and
expect to have churches.
>> Loren (21:40):
I think.
>> Carol Howard (21:40):
And I know, you know, everybody wants to deny.
That's the truth. But it's
the truth.
>> Loren (21:48):
I think the demographic or the. Not the
demographic, um, I think the
dynamic that I worry about is
essentially what I feel like you probably seen
in some context where just, like, because the church
is paying so little or offering basically next to
nothing, clergy kind of, like, undercut the
market.
>> Carol Howard (22:09):
Uh-huh.
>> Loren (22:11):
Someone is desperate to have a job or wants to be
pastor, so they'll go work for next to
nothing. Or the church will
essentially just hire someone, elevate someone out of their
congregation, which I don't want to discount that,
because obviously
folks can have ministry skills and
giftings, whether or not they have an M div, for
(22:33):
instance.
>> Carol Howard (22:33):
Right, right.
>> Loren (22:34):
Um, but it also does kind of like, using an
economic term, again, does kind of, like, depress the market.
So it can be a real challenge there.
>> Carol Howard (22:44):
Yeah, yeah, it can. Um, and,
you know, I think that that goes back to.
I mean, in our
system, this really weird thing was happening
where we were expecting more and
more internships
and CPE credits, and
(23:05):
it was costing more and more, but at the
same time, we were growing these kind
of robust, um, lay
pastor, uh, uh, programs
where. And it's like,
well, why would anybody become
a trained, um, um,
minister if you could just be a lay pastor
(23:27):
and not have to go through the same sort of hoops
and in the same sort of, which.
Which is fine if we. If
that's a strategic right plan.
But it seemed like we had these two
tracks going, and we weren't talking to each other.
And so now. Now our seminaries
(23:48):
are emptying out, and,
um, we just don't always
have, and I'm 100%
with you, like, I train,
um, lay preachers and
incredibly thankful for them. So I
don't want to diminish that. But
do we want an educated clergy?
(24:10):
And if we do, we need to start putting
our money and our resources and,
um. And
our power behind that.
>> Loren (24:21):
Yeah. Because we're really advocating for those who
are jumping on, Carol and I. We're really advocating for
a both and situation.
We want to advocate for, or we want to empower
laity and ministry and that sort of thing. But we also are trying
to advocate for, like, hey, let's. You know, let's.
If we're going to say, like, uh, ordained
(24:43):
clergy, um, matter. Like,
let's put our money where our mouth is too. Right?
>> Carol Howard (24:50):
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Well,
yeah.
>> Loren (24:53):
One of the things that I think is important in this conversation,
um, is the idea of
controlling what we can control. Right. And that's
where I really appreciate family systems
theory in, at least as I understand it.
One of the most profound principles, to me at
least, is like, thinking about what can I control?
(25:15):
Um, so you obviously a, uh, good familiarity
with that concept, and we're going to talk about here in
a moment your book, which features a lot of
family systems theory, but talk a little bit about
your experience with family systems theory and how you think it
can be a help to pastors and clergy,
you know, especially as we think about all these
challenges and dynamics we've been talking
(25:37):
about.
>> Carol Howard (25:38):
Yeah. Well, I definitely
am indebted to, uh, my
friend James Minimore, who co
authored the book. And he's a
therapist. And it was interesting
because I was writing this book,
um, way before I came to my present
church, and he was writing a book
(26:01):
as well. And, um, James is
a therapist with the Good Samaritan
center, or the Samaritan
center, and he works
outside of our church. And so
we were reflecting on the books
that we were writing, and we decided to,
(26:21):
uh, merge them. And so I learned a
tremendous amount from James.
And a lot of
what we went through with COVID really
reflects family system theories.
>> Loren (26:35):
Yeah.
>> Carol Howard (26:36):
And, um, you know,
so if you think of, um,
uh, our churches not as
individuals, but as
organizations, as, um, these
systems, you can start
to see some patterns that are
taking place. So there
(26:58):
are many things, um, like,
uh, homeostasis, like,
uh, uh, these systems,
these organizations, they really like to
maintain homeostasis.
And we talk about it like a rubber
band on the wrist.
(27:19):
The harder you pull on that rubber
band when it snaps back, the harder it
hurts. And the more
it wants to come back to
homeostasis, wants
to go back to that shape and form
it used to be. So
what we had. And also when we
(27:41):
have these systems, um,
fear really does
an anxiety, does
something, um,
uh, it really stresses out this
system. So oftentimes when you have
fear and anxiety, you have a lot
of polarization. You have people
(28:02):
pitting against people. You
have, um, uh, people cutting
people off, people getting really angry
and tense, people fleeing.
You have the whole fight, flight or flee
sort of situation that happens.
And so here we
were on this trajectory
(28:24):
that, again, has been
happening, um, way before
you became a minister, and even I became a
minister, and that is,
you know, this decline.
And, um,
it had been going on for a while, and then
(28:44):
COVID hits, and it
accelerated church closings. It
accelerated the fear,
really, I think, for a lot of
congregations. And
so when that
anxiety sort of spiked,
um, then all of these things began to happen.
(29:07):
People began to,
um, uh,
resist any sort of change.
They began to polarize.
They began to fight with one another.
Um, and so
it's been a very
difficult, even
(29:29):
traumatic time, I think, for a lot of
clergy. And, um,
everybody kind of assumed that as
soon as we opened up, it would be fine.
Everything would be.
>> Loren (29:41):
I did go back to.
>> Carol Howard (29:43):
Yeah, I did, too. Everything will be back to
normal. And then you're like, oh, this is not
normal.
So. So there is this
just extreme challenges that we're going
through, and there's not
a lot of support because then, um, at the same time,
we also have, um, you
(30:06):
know, all, uh, of the.
>> Loren (30:08):
Other things that we talked about.
Yeah.
>> Carol Howard (30:10):
Ah, yeah. So, uh, you
know, a lot of clergy are
suffering right now, and, um.
And, you know, the good thing about
it is, well, there's
no. I don't want to, like, slap a
happy face on top of it. But
(30:31):
the reason why we called our
book wounded pastors is
because of that kind of
jungian theory that Henry Nowan,
Henri Nouwen picked, um, up so
beautifully. Um, that
idea of wounded healers, you
know, and, you
(30:53):
know, we're in this time
of post trauma,
and, um, we
can have some growth out of it. We will
have some growth.
>> Loren (31:05):
Yeah.
>> Carol Howard (31:05):
It's just going to take a while.
>> Loren (31:07):
Yeah. Well, I think that's an
important. I think that's such an important
point to speak about,
and I want to talk more about that.
But there's also some quotes here from the
book I want to highlight just
because they resonated with me.
So here, this one I shouldn't say highlight. This one
(31:29):
I hated, but I know it's true.
Church members will take as much of your energy, time
and work as they can. This is not because they're evil, but because
they're human. And boy, oh, boy,
does that slap a lot of us pastors
in the face. Right? Uh, as
much as I understand that and appreciate that quote, I
(31:50):
also don't like it. So
talk through that with me and for our listeners.
>> Carol Howard (31:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, most
of us who are clergy,
or a lot of us as clergy, you know,
you do have undeniably, like, some
narcissistic, you know, clergy out
there, and, um, but I
think a lot of clergy like,
(32:18):
we. We want to be servants. We want to.
We want to serve the church, we want to give
to the church, we want to love the church.
You know, we want to take up our cross daily. You know,
uh, we have all these, like, images m of.
Of servanthood.
Um, but one of the
(32:39):
issues that can come up
with that is we
end up, um, really hurting
ourselves and hurting our families
and all of that. And
we, again, live in a hyper capitalist
society where people
(33:00):
are trying to get as much productivity
for as little amount of money as possible.
And people live in that world
every single day. And so when they
come to us, they want us to have as much
productivity with as little amount,
as money as possible. And,
(33:20):
um, you know, and again, it's
not evil. It's just
the way that our world is working
right now. And so m
people will end
up, um, trying,
whether they're trying to do the best for the church or
(33:41):
they're trying to, or they're just in that
mindset kind of constantly.
Um, uh, it can happen.
It can happen. Maybe I shouldn't have said
it will happen because there
are some great churches out there.
>> Loren (33:57):
Yeah, that's immortal.
>> Carol Howard (33:59):
Uh, but it can.
>> Loren (34:00):
Yeah, it definitely can. So this other quote
here, um, you write,
what happens if we don't forgive? And I think,
man, I've been there. I'll just confess, like, I've
been there.
Holding a grudge against,
you know, a congregant, a parishioner.
Uh, you're right. You know, what happens if we don't forgive? Unfortunately, not
(34:22):
forgiving tethers us to bitterness and to
the people who have hurt us.
In extreme cases, a person might not just be a wounded
pastor, but a wound collecting pastor.
Such people never seek closure. Instead, they
persist in, uh, seeing malice
and innocent acts, looking for ways to be offended
(34:42):
and becoming ever more sensitive to
slights. Uh, I think that's such a powerful
quote. And I'll bookend this here with
something I read from another, not your same
Presbyterian, but Presbyterian, uh, who used to
be in your neck of the woods.
The late Tim Keller,
who certainly I.
Would hold some different theological principles then, but he said something that
(35:04):
really resonated with me about the importance of forgiveness. Because
if we don't forgive, then our actions are
inspired by not, um,
for reconciliation, but retribution.
Um, so talk about forgiveness and how
that can impact and why that's so
important.
>> Carol Howard (35:25):
Yeah, I mean, forgiveness is hard. It's
just a hard and tricky subject. I
just read, ah, kaia
oaks, um, just wrote, ah,
a book. I think it's called sorry, not sorry, which is really
interesting. But, ah, one book
that really impacted me was Desmond
(35:45):
and Mephone Tutu's book.
Um, that's a father and daughter bishop. Ah,
Desmond Tutu, um, wrote,
ah, four fold path of forgiveness
called a book of forgiving.
And, um, so that's
just had this tremendous impact on my life.
(36:06):
And of course, they're talking about the truth and
reconciliation in South
Africa and these really
extreme, um,
acts of heroic forgiveness.
And they kind of explain
over and over again that forgiveness isn't
(36:26):
for the other person, it's for
you. Um,
and then I was reading about wound
collecting, which I thought was just sort of this
fascinating idea. And it was a
psychologist who was looking
at, um, he was kind of looking
(36:46):
at terrorists.
>> Loren (36:47):
Mhm.
>> Carol Howard (36:48):
And then he began to look at like,
incels and look at,
um, different people.
And he came up with this thing
of like, wound collectors. And
we all know these people, not the
terrorists, but these people
who cannot let it go
(37:10):
no matter what. And so they begin
to hold grudges and more and more
grudges, and then they
begin to see things and
people who don't
mean to be even doing
anything wrong.
So it's just a trap we can get
(37:32):
into and become miserable. Um,
so forgiveness is tricky. And
we try to suss
out the different sorts of forgiveness,
whether it's legal forgiveness or
for forgiveness, or whether it's,
um, theological forgiveness or, you know.
And so there's different types of
(37:54):
forgiveness.
Um, but certainly
for me personally, uh,
it's still something that's
important to strive for.
>> Loren (38:09):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's good. So another
quote here. And again, I hate this quote, but I think
it's important you're right.
Or you and James. Right. Uh, as we continue the process
toward healing, we need to go back to our stories,
reclaim our character in them, rewrite them,
and find meaning through them.
(38:29):
So I'll speak for myself here, Carol,
as, uh, someone who, like you, grew
up in a very concerted context, for me, at
least. Ah, I really. I wouldn't
say, like, accepted, but I really found a way to, like, make
peace with, like, my
past.
Um, not in a way that, like.
(38:52):
I necessarily appreciate
everything that I was taught, but I have
this weird appreciation. I
don't know if that even makes sense.
>> Carol Howard (39:02):
Yeah.
>> Loren (39:03):
For like, you
know, like, I have a.
Like, I have a King James bible that I just
hold onto dearly,
uh, because it's so familiar
and, um, meaningful for me. Yet
also there's
this weird. There's certainly this weird dissonance
(39:24):
there. Uh, but talk more about that and
what you mean by that quote.
>> Carol Howard (39:31):
Yeah, I mean, I had to do
a similar thing. It was really interesting. Right after
I left moody, I know
that I definitely kind of
rejected everything, and I wouldn't even
tell people where I went to school.
Um, I would try to hide it and
(39:51):
that sort of thing. And then at
some point, like, you have
to sort of come back to it and embrace
it and
realize it's part of you,
even though it doesn't, um,
it's still part of you. Right.
(40:13):
And, um, even if you reject it, even if you don't
agree with it, it's a
peace, and it's gonna miss.
It's gonna be missing unless
you embrace, uh, it again. But you can't
embrace it in the same way. Right. So you have
to begin to think about retelling, um,
(40:34):
that story. And
the stories are
incredibly powerful in
how we tell our stories, especially
stories when we've been wounded.
Um. Uh, the
way in which we tell our stories
will inform, um, our
(40:56):
healing. Viktor, uh,
frankl,
he wrote man's search for meaning, and, um,
uh, just such a
powerful book. I go back to it. I think I feel
like I read it every year, um, and learn something
different from it every time. He's
(41:16):
just, uh, amazing.
But he talks about this,
rewriting your story and
finding meaning.
>> Loren (41:27):
Um.
>> Carol Howard (41:31):
And doing that. Um,
sometimes you can even do
it. I was able to
write books about things, and
you sort of reflect back.
>> Loren (41:47):
Um.
>> Carol Howard (41:48):
I'm kind of hearing in my ear
there are so many, uh,
womanist theologians
who would say,
um, I think, who would fight back on
that. The idea of
trying to redeem suffering.
(42:09):
Um, and I want to
honor that. Uh, but
I also, uh, just want
to talk from my personal experience,
the sense of when
I've gone through difficult
issues, difficult problems, if
(42:30):
I've been able to retell that story in
a way in which I'm not a victim,
but I'm a survivor.
>> Loren (42:38):
Yeah.
>> Carol Howard (42:38):
And. And then
a, uh, wounded healer, you know?
Um, it can be extremely
powerful, not only for, you know,
the pastor, but for churches.
>> Loren (42:53):
Right.
>> Carol Howard (42:53):
And their identity.
>> Loren (42:55):
Right. Well, this is a great conversation,
and for sake of time, let's leave it there.
The name of the book is wounded pastors.
Hopefully, uh, I have the right title here. Uh, was it
navigating burnout, finding healing, and discerning
the future of your ministry? Is that right?
Okay, good. I was, like.
>> Carol Howard (43:14):
I had to look because I forget it, too.
>> Loren (43:16):
Hopefully, the subtitle hasn't changed since I've seen it.
>> Carol Howard (43:20):
Nope. Nope.
>> Loren (43:20):
Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some closing
questions.
All right, we're back with Reverend Carol Howard. So thanks
so much for this conversation. Um,
again, I want to recommend her book, wounded
pastors with James Fenimore.
So check that out. Uh, Carol, I always tell folks, you can take these
(43:41):
questions seriously or not if you'd like
to, but, uh, if you're a pope for a day,
what might that day look like for you?
>> Carol Howard (43:50):
Oh, wow. That would be a
good day.
Definitely, like,
liquidate the assets, give the assets
to victims of pedophilia,
put those pedophiles in prison.
I would definitely ordain
women and, uh, allow
(44:13):
for LGBTQ,
um, marriage. Be a good day.
I'm sure I could get it all done.
>> Loren (44:21):
Speaking of, uh, um,
assets, you think? I feel like the catholic church would have enough assets
where they could, uh, uh, fund clergy for
quite a long time, right?
>> Carol Howard (44:32):
Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so,
yeah.
>> Loren (44:36):
Um, um, a theologian or historical christian figure
you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
>> Carol Howard (44:43):
Well, you know, I did this, uh, uh,
I would. I would have said Meister
Eckhart just because
he's been the person who
has really,
um, been the most
influential on my
ministry, I think. Um, but
(45:05):
julian of norwich, too. I just did
a little tiny devotional on
julian of Norwich. And I wrote it during,
um, uh, I wrote it during
COVID-19 and it
was so helpful because
she also wrote during, um,
the black plague or went through.
(45:29):
Had her visions soon after.
Anyways, super, super helpful. So I
have probably my star card I'll stick with.
>> Loren (45:37):
Well, those are two good options.
Yeah.
What do you think history will remember from our current time
and place?
>> Carol Howard (45:45):
Oh, ah, that's a good question.
I mean, I'm hoping that,
um, I talked about
post traumatic growth,
and I really believe that
we are going to go through a spiritual
deepening where we begin to
(46:06):
understand God in a different way,
where we begin to connect
with creation in a different way. I mean,
we definitely need,
um, to begin to think about our
environment,
um, and the way in which we
care for, uh,
(46:29):
creation. So I see a lot
of really interesting things
coming up, uh, about that.
Um, uh, you know, I just
believe that this is going
to be a hard, hard, very fruitful
time,
um, where we begin to
(46:52):
do a lot of correcting
of,
um, uh,
what we've kind of veered
off on the last.
I don't know how many years,
um, you know.
>> Loren (47:10):
Yeah.
>> Carol Howard (47:11):
When church is all about, like,
I don't know,
worship wars.
>> Loren (47:19):
Yeah.
>> Carol Howard (47:19):
Ah, whatever. We've been talking about, you
know, making sure the gays
are in their place.
Yeah. I mean, you know, that's
always. This is the main thing we've been talking about for so
many years. So we just need to
do a lot of correcting, and I think
we're going to. I think
(47:41):
we're there, or, uh, we're in that
crisis moment.
>> Loren (47:45):
This leads into my final question.
What do you hope then? You've kind of
spoken to. Maybe not. What do you hope?
What do you hope to see? What? Answer that
question. How you'd like to, I suppose.
>> Carol Howard (48:01):
Yeah. Well, even now, if
you think about all the congregations in
the world, um, you know, the
church at large is
probably one of the largest
landowners, uh,
globally. And,
um, if
(48:23):
we begin to take that seriously and we begin
to care, um,
for our,
uh, world, and then if we
begin to help our congregants
do that, uh, we could have
this huge impact, um,
(48:44):
if we can teach our children how
to connect with nature,
and, um,
they're going through this tremendous nature
deficit disorder, uh, right
now. Um, so there
are just so many things that we can
do, uh, particularly, I think,
(49:06):
with the environment and
connecting, um,
with the environment in a new way. I think that's
our big crisis that's coming up,
and, um, it may give us
an opportunity to think outside of
ourselves a little bit. Be good.
>> Loren (49:25):
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I suppose that was not my last question. My last question is,
actually, where can people find out about you and connect
with you?
Get the book, all that?
>> Carol Howard (49:36):
M. Yeah, I think,
uh, my.
Oh, there's a wounded pastor's, um,
website, so you can look
for that, I guess. Um, I have a
website, but it's sort of in transition right now.
Um, but
(49:57):
I'm on Facebook and Twitter and
Instagram, Carol
Howard, so if you
ever want to talk to me. We
connected through Facebook, right?
>> Loren (50:09):
Yeah, I believe so.
>> Carol Howard (50:11):
Yeah. Yeah, I'm easy to
contact.
>> Loren (50:15):
Well, I really appreciate the conversation. Really
appreciate the book. Hope it's helpful to
other pastors like myself. So always leave folks with
the word of peace. So may God's peace be with
you.
>> Carol Howard (50:28):
Thank you. Also with you.
>> Loren (50:29):
Amen. Um.
>> Paul (50:32):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
To learn more about Loren or the podcast,
visit future dash christian.com.
One more thing before you go. Do us a favor
and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're
feeling especially generous, leave a review.
It really helps us get the word out to more people about the
(50:52):
podcast. The
Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
arts and resonate media. Our episodes were
mixed by Danny Burton and the production support is
provided by Paul Romaglevitt. Thanks
and go in peace.
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