FOREVER MOTORING: JT Nesbitt and Andrea Hiott: Moonwalking with Motorcycles

Artist, designer, and engineer JT Nesbitt discusses why the high stakes of motorcycling make it one of the highest forms of art, and how sustainability requires a radical shift of perspective. JT's most recent bike is the Curtiss 1, a light electric vehicle (LEV) that rethinks what forever motoring really means.

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Episode Transcript

Andrea (00:12):
the podcast about what moves us and the ways we move.
I'm Andrea Hiott, and today I'llbe talking with JT Nesbitt, a
designer, engineer, and artist.
Though he would never callhimself an artist, as you'll
hear him say in the the podcast,he's certainly a man living in
numerous worlds at once, a manwho has thought long and hard

(00:34):
about what he wants and whatit's worth sacrificing.
A creator with a motorcycledesign language that the motor
art connoisseur Paul D'Orleanshas called"distinctive and
unforgettable" with creationsthat have been known to bring
people to tears when they firstlay eyes on them.
Today we talk about thedreamscape salt flats of

(00:55):
Bonneville and something JT'sdad finally said to him there
that he'd never said before.
We also spar a little overwhether ideas have any value and
reconsider the job of thehermit.
We reimagine what a sustainablefuture in motoring might really
look like.
JT brings out what he calls anold chestnut about a samurai

(01:16):
sword(though I have to admit,I've never heard this chestnut
before) and explains whatpartying with two of the most
famous Michaels in the world,Jackson and Schumacher, one
evening after Formula One taughthim about Ziggy Stardust.
With his newest LEV LightElectric vehicles motorcycles,
JT and the Curtiss team aretrying to offer a different

(01:38):
approach to sustainability, oneJT contrasts with that of Elon
Musk.
We also hear about his uglybrown Shovelhead and his love of
post-war German motorcycles.
I learn about George Brough.
B R O U G H and what Hesketh is,and JT talks about why the high
stakes of motorcycle riding alsomake it one of the highest forms

(02:01):
of art.
I'm so glad you're here and Ihope you enjoy the podcast.
Thanks for taking this journeywith us.
Here we go.
Hey, J.T..
How is it there?
You're in New Orleans, right?

J.T. (02:12):
Yeah, I'm in the, the really, the last free city in
the United States.

Andrea (02:19):
Oh gosh.
Well, where are you exactly?
You're in your studio there.

J.T. (02:22):
I'm in the Marini, so I'm about a mile downriver from the
French Quarter.
I'm joining you from my studiothat, uh I built starting in
2015.

Andrea (02:33):
You built it yourself?

J.T. (02:35):
Built it myself.
It's a two story steel and glassstructure attached to a house
that was built in 1929, whichmakes this the newest house on
the block.
Most of these houses were builtin the 1830s.

Andrea (02:50):
All right, well, now that we know where you are,
let's jump right in.
So this is a podcast about whatmoves us and the ways we move.
So the first question I wannaask you is, what's a moment in
your life that you rememberbeing moved?
You can take that wherever youwant.

J.T. (03:06):
Uh,, riding a motorcycle that I built at Bonneville in
2004 was a really big deal.
That could be the last, thatcould be the last memory that I,
that I explore as I, as I pass.
And that would be a good one.

Andrea (03:26):
Can you tell me a little more about that?
What, for people who don't knowBonneville, maybe you can just
give like a one sentence kind ofintro to the Salt Flats.
Just the visuals of it, youknow, it's such a special place.

J.T. (03:39):
Bonneville is, it's a very solitary kind of experience and,
uh, it's very inward and notvery outward.
If road racing is an is, isabstract and all over the place,
it's kinda like a William deKooning painting.
There's a lot going onBonneville is like color field

(04:00):
painting.
It's like a Mark Rothko and itforces you to, to go, to go more
inward, Bonneville is the lastbastion of world class amateur
racing.
It's a place where a guy who hasa passion and comes up with an

(04:20):
idea can work in his garage.
And can be the best in the worldin that particular class.
That's one of the reasons whyit's so special, it's, it's
inclusive as opposed toexclusive racing.

Andrea (04:36):
So I guess before you rode your own bike there, which
is quite a dream come true,you'd already watched many a
race there or followed it,

J.T. (04:45):
yeah, and I've gone back several times and unfortunately,
the climate change has impactedthat area quite a bit because
you're racing on a naturalsurface.
You're not racing on a manmadesurface.
So it's really prone to, toclimate change.
And, uh, there have been a fewgood meets fairly recently, but

(05:07):
they're getting fewer and fewer,really good meets where the salt
that you're actually racing onis, nice and firm.
So the salt is going away.
The salt is getting thinner andit's mushier and it just, it
isn't what it used to be, andyet there's still guys out there
setting records.
It's not like a happy thing.

(05:28):
Racing at Bonneville is one ofthe hardest things I have ever
done.
It's like racing in the middleof nowhere.
It's like racing.
You're setting up a Bedouin campin the middle of this super
hostile environment and expectedto do everything that you would
normally do, like with a pit andpower outlet.

(05:51):
You know, all the things thatroad racing has.

Andrea (05:53):
Yeah.
It's a little bit insane, but ithas that quality.
Right.
It's almost like a dream, dreamish kind of setting.
And how did it feel to actuallybe riding on that salt flat?
Were you just totally present inthe moment or were you having
these kind of like, oh my God,I'm actually on my bike on the
salt flat moments?

J.T. (06:10):
At that meet.
I was not, I was not the racer.
Right, right.
So I just rode, I just rode thebike back to the pit from, from
the end of a race.
But that was enough

Andrea (06:21):
still.
Yeah.

J.T. (06:23):
I was Crew Chief, and interestingly, my father was
there.
And it was a time that I, I wasable to really connect with my
dad, um, in a very special way.
Your father-son.
Relationships are really, reallyweird.

Andrea (06:42):
Indeed.

J.T. (06:43):
When, when I was 14 years old, my father told me that if I
ever owned a motorcycle, hewould disown me.
If you own a motorcycle, that'sit, son, you're out.
I,

Andrea (06:56):
Wow why did he say that?
Did he sense that you were goingthat direction or something?

J.T. (07:00):
I was a young man and I was curious.
And, uh, one of his, the, theguys who worked for him showed
up at his office one day on aKawasaki GPZ 900, otherwise
known as a Ninja.
Oh.
And when 14 year old JT saw'Ninja' on a motorcycle, like,

(07:20):
that's it.

Andrea (07:21):
Oh, okay.
So he saw your reaction to that.

J.T. (07:24):
Now you got my attention.
It's a motorcycle called, calleda Ninja.

Andrea (07:29):
And your dad just said, no way, son.
Don't do it.
Yeah, I'll, and he really said,he'll disown you.
That's strong language.

J.T. (07:36):
That's verbatim.
And uh, that, that's when I knewthat I was gonna dedicate my
life to spiting my father.
All of this, all of this is justrevenge, you know, that's,

Andrea (07:51):
I don't believe that totally.
But

J.T. (07:53):
no, it's,

Andrea (07:54):
it's all connected, I guess.

J.T. (07:55):
It's definitely connected.
And, and at that meet in 2004 atBonneville, when my father
finally saw this motorcyclehauling ass across the salt, he
finally turned to me and said,son, I'm proud of you.

Andrea (08:12):
Had he said that much before?

J.T. (08:14):
No.

Andrea (08:14):
Oh gosh.

J.T. (08:15):
No, and that was real.
Like, you know, it's real whenyour father says, son, I'm proud
of you when you've, you've doneeverything that he told you not
to do Then you succeed at it.
That's, that's how you gain, uh,that's how you gain respect.

Andrea (08:31):
That's a life marker kind of moment, isn't it?

J.T. (08:34):
Yeah.
But what he didn't tell me whenI was 14 years old is that if
you choose this path, you'regonna be fighting for it your
whole life.

Andrea (08:43):
Mm.

J.T. (08:44):
So

Andrea (08:44):
Would that have changed your drive to do it, do you
think?
If someone had said, Hey, thisis like the hardest thing to do
in the world, or would it havemade you more adamant?

J.T. (08:54):
I don't know.
Good question.
But, but I know for sure thatit's been a fight my entire
life.
This has not been, nothing'sbeen handed out.

Andrea (09:07):
Absolutely.
Well, let's talk about that abit because how long have you
been doing this now?

J.T. (09:10):
Well, I've been involved in the motorcycle world since I
was in college.
I got my first bike in 1991.
And, uh, I'm, I'm a fine artsmajor, so I was just turning in
motorcycle projects I remember,I built a, a Moto Guzzi I was a

(09:32):
big Moto Guzzi guy.
And I built a, I built thiscrazy custom Motor Guzzi
motorcycle on the second floorof the studio building and then
rode it up and down the hall.
Oh God.
And had to disassemble.

Andrea (09:43):
How did you get away with that?
Whoa.

J.T. (09:44):
My studio was on the second floor.
I had to disassemble it and takeit back downstairs to put it
back together to ride it.
That one almost got me expelledfrom college.

Andrea (09:53):
I think it would these days.
But how cool that you could takea Moto Guzzi apart and put it
back together at that age?

J.T. (09:59):
Yeah, that, that was something else.
Even though I struggled, uh, Imean I got straight A's in all
of my art programs.
I just had to do twice the work.
And, and I gotta say that a FineArts education is the most
underrated education that thereis.

Andrea (10:18):
What's underrated about it?

J.T. (10:20):
It teaches you how to use these, your hands, your hands
and your mind in conjunction.
So a, a good fine artseducation.
And I would encourage anybodywho's listening to think about,
college, not as a pla, not asvocational training necessarily,
but a place where you go tolearn how to learn, especially

(10:41):
if you have a passion foractually making real things in
the real world.
Good, fine arts, education, uh,is painting from life, figure
drawing, color theory, graphicdesign, stone carving, metal
casting, fabrication, welding.
Ceramics, photography.
Especially darkroom,woodworking.
And most important of all arthistory, which is the history

(11:05):
of, of being.
So all of those things I I gotthis intense training in all of
these different fields, and allof that stuff I use on a daily
basis.
So I, I got real lucky.
The school that I went to justat the time I was there.

Andrea (11:25):
Where were you?

J.T. (11:26):
Oh, I was at Louisiana Tech.
I'm talking hardcore fine artseducation.
And if the school is good, allthe things that I just listed,
you'll have to do, man.
They worked us to death.
It was not easy

Andrea (11:42):
I love this idea though, of the connection between
critical thinking and using yourhands to make things.

J.T. (11:48):
Well, my professors are looking at this kid who's doing
all this crazy motorcycle stuffand going, what, what is this
kid doing?
I, they, they didn't understandthat what I probably should have
been done is, is dumped intosome kind of automotive design
program.

Andrea (12:05):
Some kind of fabrication thing.

J.T. (12:07):
I gotta tell you, the kids that I've encountered that come
out of automotive design, theydon't really have much of an
education on how to, how tomake, how to actually make
stuff.

Andrea (12:19):
Which it feels so good to know how to make things.

J.T. (12:21):
So, when you talk about technical training, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like a job based on a careerpath.
That's what those design schoolsdo, is they teach you how to
draw cars that can't be made.
You know, in the motorcycleworld you can't hide stuff,
right.
You can't hide your, your lackof technical knowledge because

Andrea (12:39):
yeah, literally see can see everything.

J.T. (12:41):
You can see everything.

Andrea (12:43):
Did you have to convince your professors?
Did you literally have to talkthem into letting you do this
motorcycle work as art?

J.T. (12:52):
No.

Andrea (12:52):
Okay.

J.T. (12:53):
No, there was no convincing them.
I just had to do twice the work.

Andrea (12:55):
What does that mean though?
What do you mean you had to dotwice the work?

J.T. (12:57):
So I would turn in a motorcycle project at 400 level
classes, which is kind ofindependent study.
Would turn in projects andreceive a failing grade.
So then have to go back and dothe sculpture work, the

Andrea (13:10):
Oh, I see.
So you were doing both,

J.T. (13:12):
I was doing both.

Andrea (13:13):
Okay.

J.T. (13:14):
I was doing industrial design and fine art at the same,
getting failing grades for thefor the industrial design.

Andrea (13:20):
So from the beginning you had this design, art,
engineering, technology, like itwas all what you were interested
in?

J.T. (13:28):
Well, I'm hugely interested in painting and color
theory, stone carving.
Sculpture, fabrication,photography, graphic design,
color theory, those are all thebasic building blocks that you
need to be in this business.

Andrea (13:44):
Well, to get up to some of your creations, cause I
really wanna talk about them.
Um, how did you end up meetingMatt and what were you thinking
about and doing at that time?
I guess you were out of artschool and how did all this kind
of come together?

J.T. (13:57):
Well, I, I got this job kind of a job.
The big magazine back in theday, was this, uh, publication
called Iron Horse Magazine.
It was published in New York andthe editor was a man named David
Snow, who's a largely forgottenfigure in, in the world of
custom motorcycles.

(14:18):
David Snow really created thewhole DIY backyard hardcore
chopper scene.
Jesse James was featured in IronHorse Magazine.
His first feature was in IronHorse, Billy Lane, uh, Indian
Larry, like all those guys,those TV guys, they were all
featured in Iron Horse Magazinefirst.

(14:41):
Before it kinda blew up.
It used to be a real undergroundscene, and David Snow was
responsible for creating thatscene, and I just loved it.
You never read an issue of IronHorse Magazine without laughing
out loud because David Snow hassuch a, such a keen wit really,
the last of the Warrior poets

Andrea (15:01):
so you're working with them or what?

J.T. (15:03):
Well, I reached out to David Snow and said, I'm this
kid.
I love the motorcycles.
Can I write for Iron HorseMagazine?
He says, if it's good, I'llpublish it.
Okay.
He was the first person to everlisten to what this young, weird
kid had to say aboutmotorcycles.
So anyway, that led me to a lotof interesting things, going

(15:25):
around and taking pictures ofmotorcycles and talking to the
guys and having theseinteresting conversations.
And I went to this motorcycleshow to cover it for the, for
Iron Horse Magazine, BatonRouge.
And at that show, I saw one ofthe most amazing motorcycles I
have ever seen in my life.
It was a Confederate, and wekind of take it for granted

(15:49):
today.
But in 1995, there was nothinglike that out there.
It was the very first hardcorebadass street muscle bike that
featured a big honking V-Twinengine.
It was just so far ahead of itstime.
So, I was blown away by the, bythe aesthetic and by the

(16:12):
engineering and by the overallgestalt of this.
And I talked to the guy who wasthere standing around the bike.
I'm like, what even is this?
This is amazing.
Turns out that was Matt Chambersand he was just as weird then as
he is now,

Andrea (16:29):
did you hit it off immediately or?

J.T. (16:32):
Well, later on I called him and told him I was coming to
Daytona and wanted to do a fulltest ride for the magazine, and
we did that.
But I never forgot that thatbike that he had with him, the
early, uh, the early bikes thatwere built in Baton Rouge on
Christian Street, those to mehave the most resonance, those
real early machines.

(16:53):
And a few years back, one poppedup, a guy in Lafayette had
bought one off the West coastand I, he's a friend of mine and
I said, man, if you ever decideto sell that, he's like, oh, I'm
gonna get it running.
If you ever decide to sell it,call me.
Well, a couple years go by andhe called me.

(17:13):
He said, well, I just don't havethe horsepower to finish this
project.
You want it?
Damn right.
I want it.
I have chassis number three.
Which is the exact motorcyclethat I saw in 1995 when I went
to the show at Baton Rouge.

Andrea (17:31):
It had to come back to you.

J.T. (17:31):
Yes.
It's, it's real weird.
And the process of restoration,cuz the bike was missing parts.
It had been torn apart.
it had been in Katrina, it hadbeen flooded out and then wound
up on the west coast somehow.
And it was missing a bunch ofpieces, so I had to remake a
bunch of stuff.
I still have the brochure

Andrea (17:50):
from that event back in the nineties?

J.T. (17:52):
Yes.
And all the technical drawings.
I've later found, a friend ofmine has all the blueprints hand
done blueprints from 1995.
I was able to get this bike backtogether and now I've, I've got
it.
I ride it every once in a bluemoon.
But what people need tounderstand about Confederate
Motorcycles is that they're notfake Harleys.

(18:16):
A Confederate motorcycle is likean American Brough Superior.
Where what George Brough did ishe, he bought in the best
engines he could find the bestcomponents, made his own chassis
and then sold it to celebritiesfor a lot of money.
That's exactly what a BroughSuperior is.

(18:36):
And there was a period in timewhere Brough Superiors, uh, were
just like used motorcycles thatnobody really cared about.
So eventually people are gonnaunderstand that, that these,
that those early ConfederateMotorcycles are real special.
It just needs more time.
To soak in for people tounderstand what they are and

(18:57):
really for the next generationto come along and say, wait a
minute, these are special.
I would say it's a luxurymotorcycle, but they're way too
aggressive to be called luxury.
It might be a luxury product,but it's certainly not a luxury
experience.
They are brutally fast.

(19:18):
But competent, they actually goaround a corner.
They stop real well, goodsuspension good motorcycles.
I have full faith and confidencethat at some point people are
gonna wake up to what theyreally were.

Andrea (19:31):
You came in at--what number was it?
It was like the only, the secondor third bike right.

J.T. (19:37):
Yeah.
I was there for the from veryearly on.
Uh, I pretty much knew at thattime that what I wanted to do
with my life is buildmotorcycles in Louisiana.
So this is like a 30 year thingthat, that I have been fixated

(19:58):
on.

Andrea (19:59):
You say build, this is interesting to me because you're
an artist and we were talkingabout using your hands and, and
building, but also, you're knownas the designer of the bike.
How do you see thisrelationship?
Is it all one process for you?
Building, designing?

J.T. (20:13):
Well, look, I need a lot of help to do it.
I'm not a solid works guy andI'm not really much of an
illustrator.
I'm more of a charcoal andnewsprint kind of guy who
conceptualizes stuff and thenworks with another guy who does
solid works, and then anotherguy who does, you know, real
nice, pretty illustrations.
On a team that is responsiblefor building the motorcycles,

(20:36):
you gotta have one guy who, whosees the big picture, who knows
a lot about bearings, who knowsa lot about hardware, all the
electrical connectors, all theweird little things, the
widgets.
You gotta have a guy whounderstands widgets and
geometry.
And that's, that's kind of myrole and history.
the history of motorcycles is soincredibly important.

(21:00):
Just like I mentioned earlier,if you're going to be a
so-called artist one thingyou've gotta know is art
history.

Andrea (21:08):
Why is that so important?

J.T. (21:09):
Well, if you're, if you're painting Campbell's soup cans in
2023, you're telling the, theworld's oldest knock, knock
joke.
Yeah, right.
Because that, that, that, thatwas a joke that was played on
the idle rich to fleece them oftheir cash.
So doing Andy Warhol style,so-called art, you're missing

(21:33):
the point.
The point was the joke.

Andrea (21:35):
So you see this more as a historical, continuous kind of
process that you're part of.
I mean, even this cocollaboration that you have to
have in order to make the bikeseems like part of that too.
It's not a joke, I guess is whatI'm saying.
This is a serious,

J.T. (21:50):
oh, it's, I've dedicated my whole life to this.
Yeah.
This is, this is real.
Like the stakes are high for me.
You said it.
This is what I do.
This is, this is why I'm onPlanet Earth.
And knowing why you're here andwhat your purpose is, is a
blessing and a curse.

(22:11):
Because when you get to do whatyou're supposed to be doing,
it's, it's blissful.
It's the most happy you'll everbe.
But when you're not doing it,it's the most miserable you'll
ever be.

Andrea (22:23):
Mm-hmm.
And you have no choice but to doit in a way, you know, you have
to do it.
So

J.T. (22:28):
yeah

Andrea (22:29):
whatever comes, you're gonna keep going.
Have you had some pretty toughmoments in that regard over all?
What do you think's been sort ofthe, the hardest part of it all?

J.T. (22:39):
Well, it's, it's always been finding the money.

Andrea (22:42):
Yeah.
It's getting the support.

J.T. (22:44):
That's the hardest part.
It's finding the money.
Absolutely.
And, you know, being, beingunder capitalized is something
that I know really well.
I've been rubbing two stickstogether to make a motorcycle
for the past 30 years.
Being fully funded and have allthe resources would be a nice,

(23:06):
refreshing change of pace.
All this work in the trenches,uh, is good preparation for that
moment.

Andrea (23:16):
Yeah.
And you'll definitely do it fromthe right place and it'll be
worth it.
And it's a completely differentsuccess as you know, most
motorcycle companies don't lastvery long.
But there are different reasonsfor going into these kind of
endeavors or starting upsomething.
And it can be money but when youdo it from this place that you
described, which is you kind ofhave to do it like you've just

(23:36):
gotten clear about what you wantand now you're gonna go for it.
Um, I think eventually thesuccess does come, but it can be
a long road.
But when it does come, I mean,in, in a way, there's a lot of
success that comes before thisbig success where you don't have
to worry about money, forexample.

J.T. (23:52):
Well define success.

Andrea (23:54):
Say that again?

J.T. (23:55):
Define success.

Andrea (23:56):
Yeah, I guess that's, you know, as I'm talking, I'm
realizing it because I thinkit's already a success, isn't
it?
To be doing what you know youwanna do and to have that
clarity and to get up every dayand work towards that in a way
that's more important than themonetary success.

J.T. (24:12):
Money, profit and money are an outcome.
That's not a goal.

Andrea (24:19):
And yet it's this hard, the hardest part of it all.
You said so.

J.T. (24:22):
Well, I mean, shouldn't effort be the, be the goal, the
ability achievement.
That's the goal.

Andrea (24:30):
Mm-hmm.

J.T. (24:31):
And profit is, is the result of effort.
Ideas have no value, but

Andrea (24:40):
that's a big statement.
Ideas have no value.
I can't agree with that.
What, what do you mean ideas?

J.T. (24:44):
They don't have any value.

Andrea (24:46):
You mean a monetary value or you mean overall value?

J.T. (24:48):
I mean overall.
Ideas do not have value.
What has value is passion, butpassion only has value when
coupled with work.
It's the work that has value.

Andrea (25:02):
I don't think you can separate value and work and all
these things though.
Can you?
And the idea from the idea, likeyou, you have this idea, this
kind of picture, vision of yourlife and then you act it and you
follow through on it.
But that doesn't mean the idea'snot important.
In fact, it seems almost likethe fuel behind it all.

J.T. (25:22):
I, I don't know.
I I think that we're kind of ina place, a really strange place
where people want to have, havefinancial reward based on their
ideas.
I hear that all the time fromyoung people.
If you ask a young person what,what do they want to do with
their lives.

(25:42):
They, they say, well, I want tobe rich.
I want to have lots of money andlots of employees, they don't
say stuff like I wanna buildmotorcycles in New Orleans.

Andrea (25:57):
Right.
Why do you think that is,though?
I mean, do they even think ofthat as an option?
Because a lot of times we justkind of grow up and we see, oh,
everyone likes this person who'smaking a lot of money and is
famous.
So that's probably what I shouldtry to become, because I wanna
be liked.
I mean, you're not evenconsciously thinking you're just
going with it.

J.T. (26:15):
Well, the super rich people in our culture right now,
it seems like they make moneyoff of their ideas more than off
of their effort,

Andrea (26:25):
Can you gimme an example of--

J.T. (26:26):
Well, really what they're doing, what they're doing is
they're co-opting otherpeople's, they're just thieves.
They're just stealing otherpeople's actual work

Andrea (26:34):
because it's all continuous as we were talking
about.
No one really has an originalidea.

J.T. (26:38):
Yeah.
In other words, I'm gonnadevelop an App for my phone.
And that App is gonna make merich, For some reason that just
doesn't really, that doesn'treally resonate with me.
I don't know why I I don't likethat it doesn't feel right.

Andrea (26:53):
It's definitely weird and strange.
It's like a virtual,

J.T. (26:56):
virtual world where

Andrea (26:58):
Yeah.
Instead of creating with thehands, as you talked about
earlier, it's a virtualbuilding, which is just a very
different place to be.
I do think you can build thingslike Apps that actually help
people and transport them and totalk about motoring actually do
move them in a positive way.
For me, it seems more about theintention and how much you

(27:20):
thought about it.
You thought a lot about what youwanted to do and you put a lot
of effort and work into it

J.T. (27:25):
well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring out an old chestnut to
kind of wrap this.

Andrea (27:28):
Okay.

J.T. (27:29):
There are two kinds of people in the world, those who
want to take a samurai sword andlearn how to cut with that sword
and inflict violence with thatsword.
And then there are those whowant to know the secrets to how
those swords are made.

(27:50):
I'm the guy who wants to knowhow they're made.

Andrea (27:53):
Do you think you're just born that way though, or, I feel
like I'm trying to get at somebigger thing, which is it's,
there's something humans want,right?
And it's something like meaningor purpose, I kind of hear what
you're saying is that you feellike a lot of young people have
gotten confused and think themeaning and purpose is the money
or the creating something thateveryone knows about.

(28:16):
Not necessarily the act of thecreation itself.

J.T. (28:20):
What they're looking for is authenticity.

Andrea (28:23):
Okay.

J.T. (28:25):
And there's very little of that.

Andrea (28:27):
It's not the money itself that brings authenticity.
You might wanna pay more forsomething that's authentic, but
that's different than, forexample, someone who's really
young, just trying to make a lotof money in order to find
meaning in their life.
The authenticity's kind of lostin that.

J.T. (28:41):
Yeah.
Well, uh, it's reallydepressing.
The more young people I talk to,the, the more young people tell
me that they don't want amotorcycle.
Their parents tell them thatthey're not allowed to have a
motorcycle

Andrea (28:53):
like your dad did.

J.T. (28:54):
And, and, and they accept that, re there's no rebellion
name there.
There's no re rebellion has lostits, its value there.
There's value just him being arebel.
But you wouldn't know it.
You wouldn't know it.
Talking to your averagemillennial

Andrea (29:11):
Seems like the rebellion is more about escape or getting
drunk or doing drugs orsomething like this.

J.T. (29:18):
Having the, the, the addiction of, of being social.

Andrea (29:23):
Yeah, that's true.
There's this, also this elementof clicks and follows and likes
and this literal kind ofphysical addiction to
technology.

J.T. (29:33):
Yeah.
Or, or, or being a hermit.
That is not a very popular,that's, that's not a very
popular, uh, thing these days.
It's like being a recluse andjust doing your work in your own
way.
Not shouting out, shout out andmaking a big deal about it.
Just, just, just doing it.

(29:54):
Yeah.
Look, just, just leave me aloneso I can do what I want to do.
That's what, that's what realrebellion means to me.

Andrea (30:02):
Well, there's something complicated here.
I'm thinking about Hunter S.
Thompson for example, who, Mattand I had a little talk about
him, in the podcast, this ideaof the edge and edge work and
like the only people who knowthe Edge are the ones who've
gone over it.
And this kind of, rebellion

J.T. (30:18):
Hunter Thompson was a writer last time I checked.

Andrea (30:21):
He was a writer, but he rode motorcycles a lot, as you
know, and he wrote about ridingmotorcycles.

J.T. (30:26):
And the greatest thing he ever wrote was an article for
Cycle World Magazine.
Believe it came out in 1992 or91.
It was called Song, Song of theSausage Creature.
And it's one of the greatestpieces of writing about
motorcycling, I've ever read.

Andrea (30:45):
I gotta look at that.
I've never read it.
Why is it so great?

J.T. (30:48):
It's just, you know, he was a wordsmith and, and

Andrea (30:51):
he was

J.T. (30:52):
He was also a personality.
He was a celebrity.
And I think he enjoyed being acelebrity.
But at the end of the day, theguy was a damn good writer.

Andrea (31:00):
Yeah.

J.T. (31:01):
That was his, that was his passion.
That was his craft.
And he was, he was good at it.
I think all the other stuff thathe did was kind of like, uh, you
know, it's kind of ZiggyStardust.

Andrea (31:16):
What does that mean?
I know Ziggy Stardust, but whatare you saying?
It was just the,

J.T. (31:19):
Well, David Bowie had a personality, a character that he
had invented called ZiggyStardust.
He also happens to be a goodmusician, right?
So the Zaggy Stardust character,at some point, David Bowie put
on the shelf and then revertedback to just being David Bowie.
Interestingly, uh, MichaelJackson taught me how to

(31:44):
moonwalk.

Andrea (31:46):
What, what kinda, are you serious?

J.T. (31:49):
Yeah, I'm serious.

Andrea (31:50):
In person or are you talking about listening to
Michael Jackson?

J.T. (31:53):
So, lemme, lemme tell you the story.
It's pretty good.

Andrea (31:54):
Okay.

J.T. (31:55):
So, After Formula One in 2006, I got invited.
It was in the Middle East, and Igot invited to go.
There was this real intimateparty.
There were only maybe 30 peoplethere at this small party.
After the, after the race.
The guy who won the race,Michael Schumacher, was at this
party.
Oh, wow.

(32:15):
Gosh.
And Michael Jackson showed upand Michael Jackson asked me,
uh, he found out I was from NewOrleans, and this was right
after Katrina.
And he, he's like, man, can I,can I talk to you about, you
know, what's going on in your,in your city?
I'm like, of course, man.
We sat down, we talked for acouple of hours.

Andrea (32:37):
That's quite something.

J.T. (32:38):
Yeah.
Well, here's the thing.
Uh, Michael Jackson, like hiswhole weird persona.
Mm-hmm.
Like that was all makeup.
His weird, scratchy, high voice,that was all put on.
So that was Michael Jackson.
Playing a character, just likeDavid Bowie played Ziggy
Startdust.
The only difference is thatMichael Jackson never could take

(33:01):
that character off and put thatcharacter on the shelf..
His nose didn't look especiallyweird.
His voice wasn't high andsqueaky.
It was about like my voice, notsuper deep, not high pitch.
And he was like, just this nicecool guy.
So, you know, I just ran throughthe whole thing about what was
happening in New Orleans and wewere sitting there hanging out

(33:24):
and, and the DJ, there was alittle dance floor that they had
set up.
The DJ played, Don't Stop TillYou Get Enough by Michael
Jackson.
And I said, Michael, would you,would you mind giving me a
couple of lessons about how tomoonwalk?
And he's like, of course.
So I'm on this dance floor withMichael Jackson and Michael

(33:46):
Schumacher, the greatest FormulaOne driver of all time.
Oh yeah.
Learning how to moonwalk toDon't Stop Till You Get Enough
by Michael Jackson.
With Michael Jackson.

Andrea (33:58):
That is crazy.

J.T. (33:58):
Look, this motorcycle thing, this motorcycle business
is so crazy.
You wouldn't, what it brings toyou believe, you wouldn't
believe the, the interestingpeople that float around you
when you're selling super highend motorcycles.

Andrea (34:15):
Well, I know a bunch of people liked your first bike
was, or was it your second thatyou made The Wraith?
Was that the second one that youdesigned?

J.T. (34:24):
Yeah, the G2, the G2 Hellcat was, I took the bike.

Andrea (34:28):
You just redid it all right?

J.T. (34:30):
More or less the, the same chassis.
I mean everything changed, butmore or less the same powertrain
and just kind of refreshed it.
Shortened it up, made it alittle more proportionate,
sorted out some of the ergonomicissues of the earlier bikes.
And then unfortunately put a bigold tire on the back of it.
Cause that was kind of the styleat the time.

(34:50):
Mm-hmm.
I, I, one of my big

Andrea (34:53):
You regret that?

J.T. (34:54):
Yeah.
It's one of my big regrets iskind of going with fashion
instead of engineering andputting that big tire on.
I mean, it looks pretty cool, Igotta say.
But

Andrea (35:03):
Did you not wanna do it, but you did it cuz you thought
it's what you should do?
Or did you want it at the time?

J.T. (35:09):
To be honest with you, I just didn't know enough.

Andrea (35:11):
Yeah.
You were really young.
Just coming in.

J.T. (35:14):
I was really young, I just didn't really know enough but
the bike had some interestingstuff going on.
That's the world's firstmotorcycle.
On the first bike that I reallydid from the ground up has an
exhaust to the swing arm, whichno one had done before and no
one's done since.

Andrea (35:32):
Yeah.
You have quite some innovationswith the swing arm.

J.T. (35:35):
Yeah.
The little Emmy that's sittingin my shop right now.
Right behind me that, yeah.
For

Andrea (35:39):
those who don't know, your Zoom video is of you in the
shop.
So, and what, what is this Emmybehind you?
It looks, I'm definitelyintrigued by it.

J.T. (35:49):
So a good friend of mine went to Mecum Auction this year,
and he knew how crazy I was forthis little German motorcycle
that was made post-war.
Mm-hmm.
And he bought one and brought itover to my shop for me to study
and really analyze.
I'm, I'm doing a series ofsketches on it.
Uh, it was built built byNorbert Riedel

Andrea (36:08):
okay.
It looked like an NSU orsomething to me at first.
Who was Norbert?

J.T. (36:11):
Uh, n I'm a huge fan of, of NSU as well, that that was
led by, uh, Uh, Albert Roder wasthe head of design for NSU, and
I've had an NSU 250 and NSU 250Max was actually the last, uh,
motorcycle to win a Grand Prixthat was based on a street
motorcycle.

(36:32):
There's something about thispost-war German austerity that
really caused a rebirth ofwonderful design.

Andrea (36:40):
And how does that Emmy fit in with that?

J.T. (36:42):
Well, when, when Norbert Riedel went to design this
motorcycle, the entire chassisis based on one set, 1 1, 1
schedule of, of tubing.
So the swing arm,

Andrea (36:56):
it's like one line?
Yeah.

J.T. (36:57):
The chassis, the front end.
It's all built out of the samepiece of tube.
Oh, um, and, and the engine isactually bolted to the swing arm
and swings kind of like ascooter almost on the other side
of the swing arm pivot.
It's kind of hard to describe,but.
The, the bottom line is, it's,it's minimalism, it's

(37:19):
minimalistic in its bill ofmaterials.
It's a wonderfully beautiful,successful design.
As a motorcycle, it's not verygood, but as a, but as a piece
of industrial design, it's justglorious.

Andrea (37:38):
How do those two things go together?
Is that o often the case thatyou tweak the design and you
mess up something tech?

J.T. (37:43):
Well, he, you know, you gotta have a little bit of
cognitive dissonance when itcomes to, when it comes to weird
motorcycles.
So you can have a motorcyclethat's, that's horrible and
still love it at the same time.
Uh, my daily ride is a 1977 AMFera Harley Davidson Shovelhead

(38:06):
electric line.

Andrea (38:06):
A Shovelhead really

J.T. (38:08):
in, in brown.

Andrea (38:10):
Oh, what if you look, what kinda choice was that?

J.T. (38:15):
If you pull 8 out of 10 hardcore motorcycle people and
ask them what's the worstmotorcycle ever built?
Eight outta 10 are gonna sayit's an a m F era Harley
Davidson.
Uh, and if you ask'em what's theugliest bike ever made?
They'll say, well, it's an AMFera.
Harley Davidson in brown yeah.
I love it.
It's okay.

(38:35):
It's so much fun.

Andrea (38:37):
Well, I, I wanna get to this form function thing cuz I
think you actually made asuccess with the Curtis One,
right?
Where you actually made a bike abit like that Emmy behind you in
terms of the beauty of thedesign.
But that actually also works asa motorcycle.
But before we get to the LEVs,we gotta talk a little bit about
the ICEs and I brought up theWraith a little bit ago because

(38:59):
so many interesting, famous kindof whatever you wanna call
crazy.
personalities liked it.
Um, what was that experiencelike for you first, maybe for
those who don't know newgeneration, like you could just
say a little bit about that bikeand,

J.T. (39:14):
well, most of the real wealthy, uh, celebrity type
people, and I won't name anynames.
I'm, I'm naming them MichaelJackson cuz he's, cuz he is
dead.
They, they were actually drawnto the G2 Hellcat, the Wraith

Andrea (39:28):
oh, okay.

J.T. (39:29):
Yeah, because the, the shape forms were, were real
organic and kind of easier toget your mind around.
So all the celebrities of theday, they, they were all on G2
Hellcats.

Andrea (39:39):
Oh.
So that was a Hellcat.
Okay.

J.T. (39:41):
The Wraith is a little too out there.
One just came up for auctionrecently.
And it's interesting to seepeople say how much they loved
that bike.
And at the time in 2004, when itreally came out, people were
horrified.
People were angry.
It wasn't just, I don't like it,it was I hate you for making it.

(40:06):
It's too, it's horrible.
We hate it.
They, it was a lot.

Andrea (40:10):
It's like sensory overload.
Like the Tchaikovsky or what'sthe, one of the big composers
who had this kind of crazydissonant.
Now to us, it doesn't sounddissonant,--Stravinksy-- but
Yeah.
Right.
Exactly.

J.T. (40:21):
Stravinksky,

Andrea (40:22):
it's like a bit too much for people to handle.
So they have to riot.

J.T. (40:24):
Yeah.
Stravinsky's Rights of Spring

Andrea (40:26):
Stravinsky.
Exactly.
Rights of Spring.
Yeah.
Great.

J.T. (40:29):
But when it came out people were like pulling their
hair out at the theater, like,this is terrible.
We get us outta here.
But like I said, one just cameup, A Wraith came up for auction
recently and all the commentswere like, oh my God, this is
like the coolest motorcycle I'veever seen.
Yeah, it was like 20 years ago.

Andrea (40:48):
Maybe That's kinda what I've heard.
Cuz I feel like there's a lot ofpositive stuff

J.T. (40:51):
why is it 20 years later people start to get it, you
know?
That's, yeah.
That, and that's, that's reallynot good design, technically
speaking, good design.
You want to have, you don'twanna have a 20 year lag, you
wanna have like a three yearlag.
So when it comes out, it'schallenging.

Andrea (41:11):
Mm-hmm.
Like art for example.
Often this happens as we justtalked about with the
Stravinsky, that something isahead of its time.
People can't handle it becauseit's just too different from
what they're used to.
It's like exploding the, theirsensory statistical regularities
that happens often in art, thatthen 20 years later, it's like,
be the cool thing or it's becomejust commonplace because like

(41:35):
now everyone knows it or usesit.
So motorcycles aren't usuallylike that because in the way
that you're talking, right.
It should, it should work prettyimmediately Right.
To be a success.
But that's kind of this weirdthing with you.
It's it's art too, you know,it's not just a machine.

J.T. (41:52):
The, there's a great quote by, uh, by Charles Eames.
For designer Charles, Charlesand Ray Eames.
They're actually a couple.
And they, they both deservecredit.
Typically.
Ray doesn't get the credit thatshe deserves.
The quote, the quote fromCharles Eames is, Uh, and I'll
paraphrase it, is that, thatthe, the label artist isn't

(42:15):
something that, that you wouldever place upon yourself.
It's, it's a, it's a term thatother people may choose to refer
you to as Hmm.
But you would never, you wouldnever introduce yourself as an
artist.
Like, I would never go up tosomebody, oh, ok.
Hey, I'm JT I'm an artist.

(42:35):
It's kinda like saying, Hey, uh,I'm JT I'm a genius.
Nice.
Nice to meet you.

Andrea (42:41):
Because that word is just so loaded

J.T. (42:42):
and the word is so dirty.
It's been so, so corrupted andco-opted and now everybody's an
artist.
And it doesn't mean anything in,

Andrea (42:53):
but it does.
It does.
But I see what you're saying.
It's hard to call yourself that,almost.

J.T. (42:56):
It does.
I mean, uh, I would never callmyself an artist.
Painters, painters, paintsculptors, sculpt artists
promote themselves shamelessly,and they use that term and they
use quote, and they use, that'smy quote.
They use that term to cover upall of their bad behavior,

Andrea (43:20):
not take responsibility for the, the actions.

J.T. (43:25):
I'm, I'm a motorcycle guy.
That's enough for me.
I'm, I'm totally happy withthat.

Andrea (43:31):
You don't need to be called an artist or a designer,
but people need words like thatfor you.
But it's, it does kind of goacross these lines, which maybe
that's actually the betterdefinition of a real artist.
But anyway.
Okay, so how many ICEs did haveyou owned or How many have you
designed or helped build, orwhatever we wanna say...
been part of?

J.T. (43:53):
I, since, uh, 1991, I've averaged about three
motorcycles, three to fourmotorcycles a year.
And those aren't just objectsthat I buy.
all the motorcycles that I'veowned, I've serviced and, and,

(44:13):
studied, sometimes modified,unfortunately, sometimes
modified badly, which I usuallyregret.
Oh.
Uh, and, but, but mainly, um,objects that I've cared for and
being a good caretaker for theseobjects is hugely important to

(44:35):
me.
So,

Andrea (44:38):
so you, I love it that you answered that question that
way, because I meant more likewith a company that you've, you
know, built, but you see all thebikes that you've ever owned or
that have ever come into yourlife as part of this uh, yeah.

J.T. (44:51):
look, the, the, the.
To be a good chef, you have toknow a lot about food, which
means you gotta taste alldifferent kinds of, of food from
all over the world and, andunderstand how it's prepared.
That's what a good chef does.
A good chef doesn't say, I, Iknow how to make my grandma's

(45:14):
gumbo the end.
I do know how to make mygrandmother's gumbo.
I'm, I make the best gumbo inthe world, but I don't call
myself a chef.
So, knowing everything thatthere is to know about
motorcycles that you can in alifetime means you have to buy a
bunch of weird bikes and take'emapart, and put'em back together

(45:38):
and tune'em and modify them.
And make'em better if you can.
I mean, that's the first rule ofowning, of ownership, of being a
good caretaker is do no harm.
So that, that's the rule that Iuse with all of this crazy
motorcycles that I've ownedthrough the, throughout the
years.

Andrea (45:58):
Have you learned a lot from messing up and failing
sometimes too, though, when youtry to modify them or when you
just, just in general trying todesign.

J.T. (46:05):
Design, yeah.
Damn right.

Andrea (46:07):
Yeah.
That's also a teacher, I guess.

J.T. (46:09):
Yeah.
I've, I've taken apart and putback together literally hundreds
of motorcycles.

Andrea (46:15):
Hmm.
I love that.
I would love to be able to dothat.
Well, I'm a,

J.T. (46:17):
I'm a mechanic too.
Mm-hmm.
So I've, I've run a, a shopwhere I've fixed motorcycles for
a living.

Andrea (46:24):
And that informs your design, I guess, right?
Obviously.

J.T. (46:27):
I still, I still do that from time to time.
Well, you know, I've got acouple of, of eccentric,
wonderful friends who don't mindspending money on strange
motorcycles.
And whenever they do that,they're gonna need service.
And I volunteer.
Please let me, let me work onthat., I've never taken one of
those apart.
I sure would like to see how itworks.
The Norton Rotary is one of mymost successful recommissions.

(46:50):
I took a Norton Rotary and gotit back to working again, what a
awesome motorcycle.
What a challenge.

Andrea (46:56):
How much time did that take?

J.T. (46:59):
That took me a couple of months to figure it out, to get
my mind around how it worked.
It's so different.
Is it?
Yeah.
I got a a, a buddy with aHesketh.

Andrea (47:07):
I don't even know what a Hesketh is.
I'm sorry to say

J.T. (47:10):
It was horrible.
When I pushed that bike, finallyoutta my shop.

Andrea (47:14):
Just is it just, is it like the logic of it or
something?
As you start to kind, do youkind of figure out the code of
it as you start to take itapart??

J.T. (47:21):
Yeah.
The Hesketh, the Hesketh is soweird, man.
The, the engine runs backwards,so it doesn't run, the right
way.
But it has the camshaft runningin a different direction from
the direction of the motor.
No, figuring out the timing ofit.
Like, how do you time thisthing?
Like am I advancing the timingor am I retarding the timing?

Andrea (47:37):
Okay.
But so are these all ICEsInternal Combustion Engines?
Is that Yeah.
Kind of what we're talkingabout.
You've made a big shift right,to this designing the LEV have
you always been open to LEVs?

J.T. (47:50):
No, I never have.
And okay.
I, you know, If you had asked mefive years ago, what do you
think about electricmotorcycles?
I would say, well, I'm notreally that interested in them.
And, and it turns, as it turnsout, I was right, because the
electric motorcycles that areout there running around aren't

(48:12):
really in my mind, designed fromthe first principles to, to
really be an electricmotorcycle.

Andrea (48:20):
Can you tell me what you mean by first principles?
Are you talking about minimalismand things like this?

J.T. (48:24):
look, let let's not get on the bandwagon and talk about how
EVs are the greatest thing inthe world and are gonna save the
planet.
They, they, they come with theirown, just like everything else,
they come with their owndifficulties and problems.
And it's not like this panacea,

Andrea (48:44):
no electricity's not free.
We forget this.
It's batteries are alsoconsuming resources.
But

J.T. (48:50):
yeah.
And, and the electricity in manyparts of the world comes from,
combustion from burning naturalgas or

Andrea (48:57):
coal.
Mm.
Coal and stuff still.

J.T. (48:58):
So, so in many ways, uh, EVs are actually external
combustion vehicles.

Andrea (49:07):
Oh, I've never heard that before.
What do you mean?
Because the combustion happenselsewhere.

J.T. (49:11):
It, it it still happens.
It just doesn't happeninternally.
It happens externally..

Andrea (49:16):
Is that always the case though?

J.T. (49:18):
No, not always the case.
Yeah.
It's, it's very nuanced, but itcan be.
But, but isn't that aninteresting thought experiment?
On an internal combustionengine, it's an external
combustion vehicle.

Andrea (49:27):
Right.
I think the argument I've heardwhen I've tried to broach the
subject with other people,mostly in the world.
Is that we need diverse sourceswe need it all.
Right.
We can't just have the internalcombustion engine it's different
sources of energy, right.

J.T. (49:42):
but that's all virtue signalling.
The one thing that they're nottalking about is the resources
that are consumed in the makingof the vehicle.
If you wanna build cleanvehicles that are actually clean
whether they're internalcombustion or electric or EV,
the key is to make'em so thatthey never get thrown away.

Andrea (50:04):
That's definitely not what's happening.

J.T. (50:06):
Yeah.
Which means that that is by badfor the environment.
Look, if your EV, which doesn'tproduce any emissions, is pretty
much guaranteed to be in thelandfill in 10 years, you have
failed in your mission to to besustainable.
You've done harm, haven't helpedanything.

(50:29):
You have hurt the world bymaking disposable vehicles.

Andrea (50:35):
Do you think people are really thinking about it on at
the top?
And as consumers that there'sanother choice maybe to make
something that will last, hasthat been a choice?

J.T. (50:45):
Yes, of course.
My Bentley, I drive a Bentley.
Talk about irony.
I design electric vehicles for aliving and I drive not daily of
course, but once in a blue moon,I drive a vehicle that has the
worst fuel economy of anypassenger vehicle made in the
modern age.

(51:05):
It gets nine miles to thegallon.

Andrea (51:09):
What, which bentley are we talking about?
This must be a,

J.T. (51:11):
I have an oh eight.
I have an oh eight Azure, sortof the last of the handmade
truly English handmade cars.
That's that series of BentleyAzure and Arnage 07 and 08 and
09 are really the last realBentley/Rolls-Royces car.
But here's the thing.

(51:32):
Let's say I drive my Bentley athousand miles a year, which is
about what I'm averaging.
That car will never be thrownaway.
It will always retain value.
It will always be special.
It will always have somebody tocome along and say, you know
what, that one's not going tothe scrapyard.
Quality, construction, qualityof materials.

(51:55):
The passion that that it took tomake the thing The car retailed
in 08 for over$400,000, and theylost money on every one they
made.
That's a great story.

Andrea (52:07):
So do you think that an LEV has more potential of being,
sustainable in this way?

J.T. (52:14):
Ours does.

Andrea (52:15):
Okay.
But the ones before didn't.
So what's different about theCurtis one, which is an LEV A
light electric vehicle?

J.T. (52:23):
it's materials, it's passion, it's quality of
construction, it's beauty ofdesign.
You've got an individual smallgroup of people who are working
on this project.
They all have stories that willbe told eventually.

Andrea (52:39):
There's some amazing innovations in this, in this
bike.

J.T. (52:41):
And there, there will never be a day when, when one of
these motorcycles will be thrownaway.
Are they expensive?
Radically So, but it's notbecause we don't wanna make
inexpensive motorcycles.
It just costs what it costsbecause our, our team is so
small.

Andrea (53:01):
You also use pretty expensive materials, right?

J.T. (53:04):
Damn right, everything.

Andrea (53:05):
Carbon fiber, titanium.

J.T. (53:07):
Yeah.
The vast majority of these partsare all made specifically for
this motorcycle.

Andrea (53:11):
Can you talk about how, like this, I've heard you talk
before about this idea ofminimalism because something
that's special about this, thisbike, and I don't know if there
are other bikes like this, I'dlike to know, is that most of
the parts have more than onefunction.
What is it, like 70% of theparts are reused in different
ways Can you tell me a littlebit about how this came about
and what if I've just got itright, what I just said?

J.T. (53:34):
Well, it's, it's about approaching the word minimalism,
not as an applique of styling.
Minimalism is about the, thebill of materials on the
motorcycle and, and respect formaterials.
Just because you can dosomething doesn't mean that you

(53:55):
should.
Thinking very long and carefullyabout tool paths and how these
parts are actually gonna getmade and how much waste is gonna
be made from the making of theindividual parts, it's all
something that really fed in forthe design of the bike.
When you see the motorcyclesomething that most people don't

(54:15):
really get at first blush isthat the front suspension
members and the rear suspensionmembers are the exact same
parts.
If you look at the four blades,it's a girder front end.
You look at the individualblades and then you look at the
rear of the motorcycle.
The blades in the rear areexactly the same as the ones in

(54:36):
the front.
It's part number one, quantityfour.
The problem is because theseparts are bilaterally
symmetrical, which means thatthey can be used not just for
and aft, but, but port andstarboard, is that when you make
a design change on a part, thoseparts particularly, it doesn't

(54:56):
happen in, in one place, thatchange.
It doesn't happen in fourplaces.
It happens in eight placesbecause the parts are
bilaterally symmetrical.

Andrea (55:07):
So what is that giving to the bike or

J.T. (55:09):
look, this has never been done before.
No one's ever, no one's everdesigned a motorcycle and said,
okay, instead of designing aswing arm, and then buying in
some fourteens.
Let's make the, the swing arm,the front and rear suspension,
work off the same basic parts.
That's entirely new.

Andrea (55:33):
Does that make it easier for someone easier to repair and
understand?

J.T. (55:37):
Well a lot of people would say, oh, it's because it's more
scalable because you only haveto manufacture one part and then
that goes all over the bike.
And there is some of that.
But economy of design also leadsto a, a lyricism visually.
So there's this repetition of,of shape and form that even

(56:03):
though you may engage with theobject and subconsciously get it
because these forms have thismelody, there's a rhythm to, to
the design.
You may not really get it atfirst blush, but once it's
explained to you that theseshaped forms live throughout the
motorcycle, not only in inpositive space, but also in

(56:24):
negative space.
I think that's the ultimateexpression of, of good design.

Andrea (56:29):
It's very organic too.
All of you often talk about thebike as living and breathing and
as an organic process.
And hearing you say this aboutthe parts, it makes me think of
earlier, design and streamliningor even Bauhaus stuff or looking
to life animals and bodies andthings like this to understand
movement that is how lifeevolves too, right?

(56:51):
Reusing parts, in differentplaces.
Reusing patterns, the same kindof patterns recur over and over
again in different forms oflife.
So, it is really organic nowthat you explain it like that.
I see what you mean.

J.T. (57:03):
On some level, this motorcycle is a love letter to
Alexander Calder.
Calder invented, uh, kineticsculpture, he really is
responsible for inventing themobile.
And if you study his work, whatyou'll find is this beautiful
repetition of shape that, thatmoves.
The shapes change theirrelationship to one another, but

(57:27):
there's a real intelligencebehind it.
it's this kind of natural fluidintelligence that he worked real
hard to get.
I'm not gonna say he wastalented because I'm not gonna
take his actual hard work awayfrom him.
If you look at an AlexanderCalder mobile and understand how

(57:48):
those shapes exist in space andhow they relate to one another
and to the negative space, andthen look at this motorcycle,
uh, I think a little light bulbis gonna go off over your head.

Andrea (58:01):
I love it that you say that because.
This is just a side note thatmight not make any sense to
anyone.
But I have to say it becauselast year there was an Alexander
Calder exhibit here in Berlinwhere I am, and I went to it of
course, and it sort of struck methere looking at all the
mobiles, that this was a betterform to think about scientific
evolution or the way thatdifferent species change and

(58:23):
move about than any other modelI've seen in science, This
balance and reusing of parts,but this very organic,
patterning that happens.
I love it that that's connectedto the motorcycle.
I hadn't heard you say that it'sa love letter to him before.
Had you thought about that asyou were creating it or you just
noticed after the fact?

J.T. (58:42):
Yes, of course.
If you look at the Wraith,that's another very Calder-esque
design.
They're very similar andentirely different exercises,
and it's really not somethingthat I can talk about without
showing.

Andrea (58:59):
People can go look at the Wraith, go Google it right
now, and then look at theCurtiss 1.
W ith the Wraith, are youreusing, stylistic patterns or
parts, or

J.T. (59:11):
It's, it's, it's all based on, on a hieroglyph that really
was generated by the engineitself and the nature of the
engine being two cylinders offof a seven cylinder radial
engine.
So using the crankshaft, thecrankshaft centers, the
journals, and the, you know,the, the crankshaft to, to, to,

(59:35):
uh, exploding that, that circleto see where it goes to
designwise.
So the, the wrath is nothing buta bunch of concentric circles.
And so is the Curtiss 1.
that's fascinating.
Every curve on that motorcycleis a section of, of a perfect

(59:56):
circle.
just to be sure that everybodygets this, every curve on the
Wraith and on the Curtiss 1 is asection of a circle.

Andrea (01:00:10):
I don't know what that reminds me of, but it remind,
oh, Gaudi maybe or something.
The architect who only hadcurves, never had a sharp corner

J.T. (01:00:19):
You ever been in the, have you been in the, uh, La Sagrada
Familia in Barcelona?

Andrea (01:00:23):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Is that also connected somehow?

J.T. (01:00:29):
That building, that building terrifies me.

Andrea (01:00:33):
I've never heard someone say it terrifies them.
Tell me why.

J.T. (01:00:35):
It's so, it's so wonderful and so beautiful and so
terrifying at the same time.
It's,

Andrea (01:00:45):
maybe you can describe it just a little bit.
It's, it's, there's no sharp,there's no corner, there's no
edge to this.
To me, it's like a fairytaledreamscape kind of organic
plantlike, I don't know what itis, but

J.T. (01:00:59):
it's, it's, it's overwhelming.
And its beauty.
And sometimes things can beoverwhelmingly beautiful.

Andrea (01:01:09):
Yeah.
We hope.

J.T. (01:01:11):
There's a great quote.
There's a great quote by EttoriBugatti.
And the quote is, there isnothing that is too beautiful.
Nothing that is too expensive.

Andrea (01:01:24):
This gets a little sentimental, but it makes me
think about when you lovesomeone or when you feel love
and how you can't do anythingwith it.
You just have to feel it, andit's almost too much because you
can't do anything with it.
You can't get rid of it.
You can't actually show ityou're just kind of stuck with
it.
I've had that feeling too withcertain pieces of art or even on
a bike or uh, driving orwalking.

(01:01:45):
I mean, ways that we move or outin nature where you somehow you
feel the connection with theworld or yourself or whatever,
maybe like when you see Gaudiyou think Yes.
Like I've been trying to expressthat, or that expresses
something I need expressed.
It's almost painful

J.T. (01:02:03):
I've I've been real lucky in my career in that I've had
two people who, who have lookedat a bike that I've made and
been in my presence and cried.

Andrea (01:02:16):
That's something, yeah.
I know that feeling.

J.T. (01:02:18):
It's highest compliment I've ever been paid.

Andrea (01:02:20):
Those are the moments of, to kind of go back to the
beginning, this meaning, thoseare moments we live for, in a
way.
You just feel connected.

J.T. (01:02:27):
When I'm standing in the presence of El Greco's Laocoön
which is at the Met, I cry everytime.

Andrea (01:02:34):
Every time.
You don't even need to, youcan't explain that.
We can't see everything that'sgoing on in those moments.

J.T. (01:02:40):
Uh, yeah, there's some Velasquez stuff that, that gets
me.
Juan de Pareja at the Met, that,that gets me choked up pretty
good.
And Calder too.
I mean.
We've got, we've got an El Grecoand a Calder here in New Orleans
at the New Orleans Museum ofArt.
When I really want to feelsomething, I'll go visit my

(01:03:03):
friends over there at themuseum.

Andrea (01:03:05):
I have pieces like this too.
What do you think is happeningin that, in that space?
Should we even not talk aboutit, but it does have something
to do, I think with.
Getting out of the way in thisminimal sense, it feels like a
bit like a puzzle piece iscoming together.
You can feel like that on amotorcycle too,

J.T. (01:03:21):
Well, it's about, it's a, it's about beauty.
What is, well, what happened toall the beautiful, to all the
beautiful motorcycles?
Where did they go?
Why don't people make beautifulmotorcycles anymore?

Andrea (01:03:36):
The beauty wasn't the priority., it became about
sports or racing or going fastor the speed or maybe beauty was
thought of as like this formversus function the bike isn't
about being beautiful.
If it happens, it's great, butit's not the goal.

J.T. (01:03:50):
Well, why, why not?
I mean, uh, why not learn towalk and chew bubble gum at the
same time?

Andrea (01:03:55):
Yeah.
Why not?
I, I guess that's part of theblindness we kind of forgot
about.
But it's also what, what doesconnect this world of art and
the machine and technology andin this way I was trying to
explore earlier

J.T. (01:04:09):
well speed machines, especially motorcycles, are
really the highest form of artand they're the highest form
because the stakes are so high.

Andrea (01:04:18):
You mean cuz your life is literally on the line.

J.T. (01:04:21):
Yeah.
That's why I don't really, Idon't paint anymore.
I'm not really a practicingsculptor.
Because it's so subjective youcould look at a stone carving
that I've done and you couldthink it's the greatest, most
beautiful piece of stone carvingin the world.
Or you could think that it'shorrible and you don't like it,

(01:04:42):
but at the end of the day, thatpiece of stone carvings not
gonna get anybody killed.
So it's an entirely subjectiverealm.
Motorcycles have this addedspiciness of objective reality.
And if you get it wrong, peopleget hurt.
I think that's, that's justglorious.

Andrea (01:05:02):
Why do you think say that's glorious?
Cuz it makes you so, you justcan't escape the responsibility
you have to be awake.

J.T. (01:05:07):
Yeah.
Cause the, because the stakesare so high.
Mm-hmm.
That's high stakes poker versus,you know, a a game of checkers.

Andrea (01:05:16):
This makes me think of the edge again, which makes me
think of, this exhibit, lastyear at this amazing place in
Los Angeles called the Peterson.
Peterson Museum.
Automotive Museum.
And they put your bike in there.
The Curtis 1 in the exhibitcalled Design at the Edge.
You ever think about this edgebecause what you just described

(01:05:37):
to me about being forced tothink about life and death in
this way and like this actuallymatters.
That feels a bit like the edge,but also what you've had to
describe about the struggle ofit.
You're always pushing at theedge of what people are used to
and trying to go a little bitfurther.
But then there's also this edgeof this minimal edge, this like

(01:05:57):
clean, sharp, everything's inits place, idea of the edge.
So first of all, like what didyou think when you were asked to
be part of that exhibit and whatwas that like and what did, what
does this mean, this edge Designat the Edge to you?

J.T. (01:06:11):
It, it's one of the highest honors I've ever
received.
Um, because the way ourmotorcycle was displayed, it was
elevated kind of above a lot ofother people's work.
When I say people, I mean bigtime factories mainly.
It's the first time in my lifewhere Harley Davidson's might,

(01:06:34):
financial might played no part.
Right.
Because they're on, they're onmy turf, which is a museum.
So for my entire career, it'salways worked out this way:
there's some kind of show,motorcycle event or whatever,
and there's a, a huge semi-trucktractor trailer with a live band

(01:06:56):
and free food and test rides andhere, we'll sign you up right
now.
That's Harley.
Yeah, that's Harley.
And then me in the parking lotstanding behind a pickup truck
with another dude baking in thesun with a bike in a parking
lot.

Andrea (01:07:12):
Come see the sculpture, come see the Calder Mobile.

J.T. (01:07:15):
So at this show, the financial might it, it didn't
matter, it was about design.
And in that realm, that's whereI can compete.

Andrea (01:07:26):
what did it mean to you standing there?
I guess your dad didn't get tocome to that one, or, or did he?
No,

J.T. (01:07:32):
no.
He's, he's, he's passed on.

Andrea (01:07:34):
I'm sorry to hear that, but that's a moment.

J.T. (01:07:36):
But it was a, it was a huge honor.
Finally I got, it was like beingable to compete in on my terms.
I mean, you hear how I talk, Imean, it's all of this kind of
highfalutin, artsy, fartsybullshit.

Andrea (01:07:51):
I don't think it's bullshit, but it's not Harley
stuff, but that's

J.T. (01:07:54):
actually the way I think so.

Andrea (01:07:56):
There's a, there's a different level of attention and
awareness that in general andacross different kinds of
motoring is coming into play.
Whether it's why we're motoringor how we're motoring or these
things we've been talking aboutactually mattering for the
experience.
And we have to kind of wrap itup pretty soon but I do wanna
talk about this experience ofactually being on the bike, on

(01:08:19):
the LEV, the Curtis 1 in thiscontext and how it's different
from being on an ICE.
Maybe the way to talk about thatis this idea of attention and
what's changed, not that oneexperience needs to be better
than the other, but it is alittle bit like that Harley
rally that you described versusbeing in the museum, isn't it?
Or is it?

J.T. (01:08:39):
So when, when I ride, I'm, I'm in, uh, validation right
now.
So my job right now is to ridethe motorcycles, get a lot of
mileage on'em, figure out what,where we can improve.
So I'm, I'm riding this bikearound quite a bit here in the
city, and I'll be riding downthe French quarter, in the
French Quarter, you know, downDecatur Street.

(01:08:59):
And, and people are going nuts.
People are yelling at me, what,what is that?
Like, their hair's on fire.
Like, wow, what are, what am Ieven looking at?
Mm-hmm.
Now, this might have beenhappening the whole time, but I,
I could never hear it.
The bike is utterly silent.
It's a new, it's

Andrea (01:09:20):
a, it's a, he got me there.
I wasn't expecting that.
You mean?
Yes.
They can actually hear, becausethere's not crazy noise and
throttle and it's, you

J.T. (01:09:27):
can hear people's reaction mm-hmm.
In real time.
And I could never do thatbefore.
Fascinating.

Andrea (01:09:35):
That is fascinating.
there's, yeah.
Do you feel like you have adifferent experience with the,
everything around you and thebike when you're not worrying
about the clutch and, you know,just trying to kind of keep
everything?
Look, I,

J.T. (01:09:49):
it's to say that it's, that it's better than, than
having a clutch and having athrottle and having control over
the noise and the power, um, tosay that it's better, I, I can't
honestly say it's better becauseI love motorcycles in all shapes
and forms.

Andrea (01:10:09):
I don't think it's about being better.
It's just, it's a different kindof experience, isn't it?

J.T. (01:10:14):
Yeah.
It's just a, it's a newexperience and it's delightful.
I, I love it because it's sodifferent.
Conceptually, here's, here'swhere most EV companies are
coming from.
They're saying, we're gonnareplace the internal combustion
engine car.
That's what Tesla's whole MO is.

(01:10:35):
We're gonna make a car thatreplaces other cars.
That's not what this is.
This is a rethink.
This is this is a do over,instead of just trying to
replace the internal combustionengine motorcycle, it's a whole

(01:10:55):
new way of, of motoring.
It's not an adaptation.
I get, I get the shift to moveinto EV, but, but at some point,

Andrea (01:11:08):
Opening the space, right?
There's different

J.T. (01:11:10):
ways, but when does the novelty of that wear off?
I'd say we're there.

Andrea (01:11:18):
Maybe if it's not about something larger.
But if it's about opening thespace and having a bigger
dialogue about the kind ofthings you were talking about in
terms of actual realsustainability, maybe this form
is easier to create this kindof, object that can last forever
because the Curtis 1 is made todo that.

J.T. (01:11:38):
You can actually see where the battery pack is bolted onto
the motorcycle.
It is designed to, to beremoved.
Right.

Andrea (01:11:46):
And it can be modified as batteries become modified

J.T. (01:11:49):
it, it actually gets better with age.

Andrea (01:11:51):
That's, that's a real shift, right?
If people in both ICEs and LEVsand all other forms of motoring
actually tried to create thingsthat could last and that could
adapt and that could change andevolve while still remaining
consistently the object.
That's a different way to thinkabout motoring,

J.T. (01:12:11):
well, why aren't they?

Andrea (01:12:13):
Because right now we don't think that's, profitable,
right?
It could be.
But I, I guess it's just theinertia is towards, consumption,
planned obsolescence where youneed the customer to buy
something every year Andobviously that model is failing
in a lot of ways.
So, how does this model becomesexy and profitable?
I think you have to change whatprofit means, right?

(01:12:34):
And maybe profit isn't about howmuch money you make every year.
It's about what you're providingoverall to this kind of larger
process.
And you need to be rewarded forthat, and you need to be able to
find motivation for that.
Those are the kind of problems Isee.
What do you think?

J.T. (01:12:48):
I, I think it's, it's the, the pioneers are always the ones
that get the arrows in the back,

Andrea (01:12:55):
They're also the ones everyone remembers.
But it doesn't have to be thatway.
M aybe it's time to change thatparadigm a bit too, where people
that are actually pushing at theedge and the bounds in ways that
are real and for reasons thatare authentic actually could be
rewarded as well.
Not when they're dead and gone.
But now.

J.T. (01:13:14):
Well, either way, if I'm around to see it.
Well that's great, but if I'mnot, I'll still be here.
I don't have any kids, but I gota lot of children.

Andrea (01:13:27):
Yeah.
Reproduction is not only aboutkids, we create and share our
selves and our lives in allkinds of ways.
It matters.
In that way, we're back to thisidea of forever motoring, these
things will continue and they'llinfluence others.
And that is a way of forevermotoring too

J.T. (01:13:46):
It's the, the only path that I can see towards,
immortality.
It's the only way I can figureout how to, how to live forever.
I can't think of any other way.

Andrea (01:13:57):
It's not about one individual living forever as
much as it is about realizingyou're part of this ongoing
process that doesn't reallybegin or end.
There is something there, beingat peace with your

J.T. (01:14:09):
Your, your contribution to humanity.

Andrea (01:14:12):
You've talked about before this idea of motoring as
being also part of like alineage of respecting this
lineage that you're part of.
Right.
Respect for the people that camebefore and the ones that come
after and

J.T. (01:14:23):
yeah, well, uh, Carlo Guzzi I've never met the man.
I'm great friends with him.
William Henderson, all, allthose wonderful American inline
four cylinders that I'm so crazyabout.
So there was no way I could evermeet him, but I sure do know
him.

Andrea (01:14:40):
You're even part of the same family if you draw the
circle in a certain way.

J.T. (01:14:45):
Let's, let's wrap it up with that.

Andrea (01:14:47):
Let's leave it on that.
Yeah, let's leave it on that.
Thanks, JT.
It's been really good to talk toyou.
Hope you have a great day there.

J.T. (01:14:53):
I'm sorry for wearing you out with all my bullshit.

Andrea (01:14:56):
You definitely didn't.
That was a great conversation.
Thank you.