April 6, 2023 • 19 mins
Steve welcomes back friend of the podcast, Chris, to talk about their experiences with gender in recovery, as well as navigating our queer community sober.
Interested in more details on the Spring Clearance Roundup check out their Instagram @springclearance
Also give Chris and I a follow @cprgivesyoulife and @gayapodcast
Until next time, stay sober, friends!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steve (00:03):
Hi everyone and welcome to Gay a, a podcast about
sobriety for the LGBT pluscommunity and our allies.
I'm your host, Steve Bennett.
Martin, I am an alcoholic.
I am grateful for all the greattopic episodes I have planned
for the coming months.
As of this recording, I am 626days sober, and today we're
welcoming back friend of thepodcast, Chris, to talk about
(00:24):
discovering your gender inrecovery.
Welcome back.
Chris (00:28):
Hi, Hey, how
Steve (00:30):
are you?
Good.
For listeners that don't alreadyknow you, I definitely recommend
going back to the episode thatwe did last June, but why don't
you tell us what you've been upto since then?
Chris (00:41):
So much has happened since then.
Since June.
Wow.
I so much has happened.
I.
got out of her three yearrelationship, which was really
difficult.
I took a step back from schoolwhich was also really difficult.
I was just spreading myself alittle bit too thin.
I'm doing some upper levels ofservice, and they just were
requiring more time and I wasn'table to show up to all of the
(01:02):
things that I really wanted todo really well.
So it was like, let me just takea step back from school.
I can readdress it once theseother things are done.
And yeah, you know, I'm.
Chair of server retreat thathappens at the end of April.
And we are like in the thick ofplanning.
We will have our first bigfundraiser in a couple of weeks
and registration will open forthat.
(01:23):
And, you know, I'm just that'sbeen my main focus for the last
six months really.
So I'm excited to, to be doingthat.
Steve (01:29):
Excellent.
Well, this episode should belaunching late March to early
April.
Did you wanna plug it real quickbefore we.
Chris (01:35):
Yeah.
So spring clearance, we'll becelebrating our 20th year this
year.
It is a fairly small retreatthat happens in Litchfield
County, Connecticut.
It's about 190 folks who comeup.
So if you're in the tri-statearea or really anywhere and you
want to come you can go to ourInstagram spring clearance it's
spring clearance, or to ourwebsite, spring clearance.org.
Steve (01:55):
Excellent.
I'll be sure to link those overto the show note.
Just in case anyone listening islooking for some fellowship in
the.
And out of all the things youcould come back to discuss, why
did you choose to discuss thetopic of gender?
Chris (02:07):
Oh gosh.
Because I think, it has been thething that has been as I spend
more time here, so like as ofthis recording, I have 2,757
days of recovery.
It's like a little over sevenand a half years.
and.
you know, this work never stops,right?
(02:28):
And as you continue to do thesteps and you continue to do
work, you're discovering newthings about yourself or
rediscovering things as, as thecase may be in my case.
And, you know, gender has beenone of those things that I've
always struggled with.
I'm gonna put in air quotes.
But it has definitely been ahuge reason as to why I used for
many years.
Mm-hmm.
And I felt like for me, it wouldbe important for me to talk
(02:51):
about it at this level.
I think that one of the thingsI've learned in sobriety is
like, the more I talk about it,the less it has power and I
might be able to help someoneelse.
So like, if I can kill two birdswith one stone, let's do it.
Steve (03:03):
Yeah.
That's excellent.
And I'm looking forward to, todiving more into it because I, I
feel like I've learned moreabout gender and just like the.
How it's not all, as all blackand white as I thought it was,
like in recovery and like in therooms.
And so I'm excited to kind ofdive deeper.
Going back like what was, wasyour relationship with gender
growing up like?
Chris (03:20):
Well I was really effeminate growing up and you
know, I was, it was one of thethings that kids noticed about
me first, you know, it was like,first I was black and then I was
really effeminate and so youknow, it really wasn't a
problem.
I had girlfriends in elementaryschool.
It was fine.
I got teased, but then I gotlike really fucking smart and I
(03:40):
got really witty and I like gotreally cutting until like, I
stopped getting picked onbecause it was like I could just
cut you down with my wordsreally easily.
And I also learned how to fight,right?
And so then it really wasn't anissue.
But then I started to train tobe a professional dancer and.
then it sort of became aproblem, not a problem, but it
(04:00):
was sort of, it was suggestedthat if I wanted to be
successful in my career, I hadto dance like a boy.
I had to be a man.
And dancing was one of thosethings that really saved me.
And so I did what I wasinstructed, you know, I butched
it up.
Mm-hmm.
And, and also just for safety,you know Yeah, I just wanted to
be safe and when I came toschool in a full face of makeup
(04:25):
and acrylic meals and, andwomen's clothing and long hair,
like I was never safe, you know?
Mm-hmm.
and.
After a while, I just got tiredof fighting, and so I was like,
let me just make my life easier,and I butched it up and I was
safe and I was able to focus onmy studies and my dancing and
things like that, but I wasdenying a huge part of myself.
(04:50):
And so when I picked up, it madethat easier, you know, it made
it easier for me to deal withthe shame of like denying a part
of myself to the world andthings like that, so, yeah.
Steve (05:02):
Yeah, and I mean, I, I, yeah, I remember like, I had a
similar experience growing upwhere like, I was picked on cuz
it was clear like people knew Iwas gay before, like I knew I
was gay or a feminate like that.
I was like different.
And it was just like whetherthat difference in this, like
hadn't aim for it yet.
Like people knew and I waspicked on and like I did do my
best to kind of fit in as muchas I could, but like I.
(05:25):
I remember like how you saidlike with the drinking, like
that was definitely like a hugepart to be like, okay, nothing
bothers me anymore if I'mdrinking or using.
I mean, how do you feel likethat affected your gender
identity for so long?
Or impacted it?
Chris (05:38):
Well, you know, I think it was a great number.
I didn't care.
Mm-hmm.
I was so focused on the drug andthe, and the drink that it
didn't matter.
You know, I wasn't reallyconcerned about anything else
except for that.
I was like very singleness ofpurpose, right?
Mm-hmm.
like my primary purpose was toget as high as possible all day,
every day.
(05:58):
And so, I just didn't thinkabout it because I couldn't
think about it.
I couldn't think about it, and Icouldn't really investigate.
Also, I didn't really havepeople around to sort of like,
help me investigate what I wasactually feeling.
And that worked for a long time.
And then it stopped working.
And then I got sober and thatsort of started to change.
(06:19):
You know, I'm, I'm lucky I livein New York City where we have a
huge, huge, huge.
Fellowship here, and it's superdiverse.
Like the city itself is superdiverse, right?
And then you get into recovery,it's even more diverse it feels
like, and at least where I'm,where I get my recovery.
Mm-hmm.
And it allowed me the space toreally investigate how I'm
(06:40):
feeling and what's coming up forme and like what have I been
lying to myself or hiding frommyself for many, many years.
out of safety because like, Ifeel safe now, you know, and I
don't need to like hide theseparts away.
And, you know, I think about forme just the visibility of like
non-binary folks and, and transfolks.
(07:01):
Like it's, there's just so muchmore of it today that it, it
again just allowed me to sort ofinvestigate like where.
Who, who am I?
What do I actually feel?
And you know, it really has beenin the last like three or four
years where I was just like,yeah, I don't really identify as
a man, you know?
(07:23):
Mm-hmm.
know I look like one, you know,like you look at me and you're
like, oh yeah, definitely man.
Right?
Like I'm muscular and I, and Ihave like facial hair and I work
back where baseball's caps andtank tops.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
like, you look at me, you think,man, but like, I don't, that's
because it's easy.
Yeah.
This is easy.
This is what I've been doing forthe past 20 years to feel safe.
(07:43):
And so like my wardrobe givesthat, but at the end of the day,
there are days where it's justlike, I'm just gonna wear a full
face and makeup and dress andwhatever just to go to the
supermarket.
Like, and that is also a part ofme, right?
Like and so yeah, it took a lotof conversations with my
therapist and with other transand don binary folks and, you
(08:04):
know, really conversations withmy Howard Power about like, who
am I, who am.
Who am I?
And you know, I think it was,it's been almost two years since
I came out as non-binary.
So yeah.
I don't know if I answered yourquestion.
Yeah, I did.
I
Steve (08:21):
think you did too.
I mean, you, I feel like, youknow, especially as addicts and
as people in like the queercommunity, like we have to come
out multiple times throughoutour life.
Like what was that process ofcoming out like?
Chris (08:32):
It wasn't difficult.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I'm really lucky thatI have an amazing community
around me and I started to likesocially transition.
Mm-hmm.
In the sense that like, I, youknow, presented more fem more
often and I changed my pronounsto Hek for a while.
And, you know, I had hevepronouns for like two years and,
(08:55):
you know I.
Yeah, I think last year or theyear before was like the first
time I just, like, I dropped thehe altogether and just go by
they, them theirs pronouns andit wasn't difficult.
You know, like I said, I'mreally grateful that I have
amazing people around me wholike, get it, you know?
And if they don't get it,they're willing to either ask me
questions that are not insultingor disrespectful or just these
(09:17):
plaque full or do the workthemselves, you know?
And there have been times whereit's like I have to remind
people and there are some peoplelike, who I just like, it
doesn't, I don't, they don'tmatter to me.
So I don't care if you get mypronouns right.
Like you're not, you know, likeif you misgender me, it's fine,
because like, you don't reallyplay a role in my life, you
know?
Yeah.
I'm probably gonna see you maybeonce or twice a year and like,
(09:40):
that's fine.
But for everyone else,everyone's been like, it's been
super easy.
It's been, I'm, I've, I'mreally, I'm really lucky and
fortunate for.
Steve (09:49):
Yeah.
And what about how, likediscovering that has enhanced or
like affected your recovery andyour
Chris (09:56):
sobriety?
Oh gosh.
You know, we talk about rigoroushonesty.
Mm-hmm.
and I think it's allowed me tobe rigorously honest.
It, you know, I think not that Iwas like keeping a secret.
but I wasn't being honest withmyself and I, and, and, and in
turn wasn't being honest withthe rest of the world.
(10:17):
And I definitely felt lighter,you know?
Which is, which was interestingto sort of like have that
experience because I felt prettylight, you know, having done the
steps and like, you know, bearedeverything to my, you know, I've
done it, but like all the thingsI thought I had done all that
stuff It's been great and italso has allowed me to sponsor
other folks and connect withother folks who are also gender
(10:39):
nonconforming and genderexpansive folks, you know, and
build community there as well.
Which, you know, I can, I alwayssay this, like, you can never
have a big enough network, youknow and, and.
Yeah, I think it's only juststrengthened my sobriety and I'm
really grateful for it.
You know, I'm grateful that I, Ifeel safe enough that I can,
like, share these things aboutmyself with the people that are
(11:01):
around me and, yeah.
Steve (11:05):
Yeah.
And what, what kind of advicewould you give to someone if
they listen or listening to thisepisode be, and they're like
confused or figuring out orworking on discovering their
gender?
Like what are some things thatthey can do or ask themselves or
think about?
Chris (11:17):
Oh, I would say do whatever the fuck you want.
Yeah.
It changes for me daily.
Mm-hmm.
you know.
And so like the way you'refeeling today may not be the way
that you're feeling tomorrow,and that is absolutely okay.
It does not invalidate any ofthose two experiences.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
If you were three months downyour like gender discovery.
(11:41):
Like discovery and you realizethat like, mm, no, I'm not
non-binary, or I'm not this ornot.
That's fine.
You can do whatever you want.
Like it's your body only youwill be able to tell what's
going on.
And I would say try to just findpeople in community and talk
about it as often as possiblewith those people who have that
shared experience.
(12:02):
You know, I think the internetis a great resource.
internet is a great resource.
It is like the devil in manyways, but like the amount of
people that I've been able toconnect with just via Instagram
has been really, really, reallyamazing and helpful.
And there's a lot of informationout there.
So just go find thatinformation, find those people,
and listen to your head andyour.
(12:23):
That's what I would say.
Yeah.
Steve (12:24):
Yeah.
If, if you can give your, let'ssay, 10 year old self, like a
bit of advice, looking backabout discovering yourself, what
kind of advice would you giveyour younger self?
Chris (12:35):
You know, at 10 I was really good.
Mm-hmm.
I think it would be like my 14year, 15 year old self.
Okay.
I would say, I would say tothat, that kid, that version of
Chris, I would say don't listento them.
I would say do what feels bestfor you.
Block out the rest of the noise.
You know exactly who you are andwhat you want to do, and just do
(12:58):
that.
everything else will work out, Ipromise.
Steve (13:02):
That's great advice.
And I know that one of thethings that kind of like tripped
me up or got me confused as Iwas like learning about like my
gender and where, where I fitinto all that was like that it
can be like different than likeyour sexuality and like your
sexual preferences and like, canyou talk a little bit more about
like how you differentiate thetwo and like how they interact
(13:22):
with each other and stuff like.
Chris (13:25):
Yeah.
And I think that that's been areally interesting discovery for
me as a late, as like, you know,I'm recently single and I'm back
on the apps again.
Mm-hmm.
and like, you know being on theapps as a non-binary person is
really, it's not fun.
especially in the, like, the,you know, the male dominated
spaces.
Mm-hmm.
it's just really interesting.
But what I will say is that,Sexuality and gender are two
(13:47):
different things.
Mm-hmm.
there are two different thingsand I'm sort of rediscovering
like my sexuality and like whatthat means for me.
I don't know.
I think, you know, I'm attractedto men, whether it be cis men or
trans men.
I'm attracted to men.
Mm-hmm.
There have been women that I'mattracted to, but like, that's
like a one-off every, you know,every 10 years maybe.
Yeah.
But.
(14:10):
Yeah.
What would I say about that?
I don't know that they're justtwo different things and you
know, just like with gender,it's, it's a constant
exploration.
It may differ today than it doestomorrow, and allow yourself the
grace to figure that out.
Yeah.
You know, and there's no shamein anything cuz like it's 2023,
we should not be shaming peopleby who they're attracted to.
Yeah.
You know,
Steve (14:29):
like preach
Chris (14:32):
So.
Steve (14:32):
Yeah.
And I'm sure you have tons ofhorror stories from the apps,
but can you tell us about like apositive interaction that you've
had with someone, like intalking about gender?
Chris (14:41):
Yeah.
I just had some really horribleexperiences recently.
So like, all I can think about.
Not having to read people for apill, but would just be like,
Google is a free resource.
Yeah.
Please use I will say that veryrecently I've been having some
really wonderful conversationswith other trans folks on the
apps and just like findingcommunity there and I did have a
(15:03):
really good conversation withone of the developers of this
new app called Motto, and we hada really, really, really amazing
conversation.
Not only around like genderexpansive folks on the app, but
also like people of color on theapps and how they can better be
inclusive and how they can likemarket themselves differently
and how they can like bedifferent than the other apps
that we encounter.
Because they all are essentiallythe same and they're all pretty
(15:24):
trash and they.
Yeah.
It was really nice to like justsit down with someone and be
like, listen, this is myexperience and this is how I
think that you could be better.
So those have been some goodexperiences.
It's just like, yeah, people whoask questions who are actually
genuinely concerned.
People who read profiles
Steve (15:39):
Yeah.
I'm, I'm more interested to, I,I'm interested in hearing more
about that, that conversationwith the app.
What, what was some of yourfeedback or your.
Chris (15:45):
You know, I think the app is brand new and they're still
trying to figure out what theirlane is.
And I think for me, I just waslike, get clear about that.
And I also You know, therewasn't, they had dropped on
menus for like gender and thingslike that, but there wasn't like
any explanations as to like whatthose things might be because
like people still don't know,like, you know, like people just
(16:06):
don't know because they like tosay blissfully ignorant or they
have their own biases orwhatever.
And so it's just like offeringthat and.
You know, just really figuringout how they're gonna be
different.
You know, I was just like, it'syour job to figure out how
you're gonna be differentbecause we have a lot of apps at
our disposal and if you're gonnastay in this game, you know, cuz
the ones that are there arepretty well established.
(16:27):
Right.
And like, whether they're trashor not, like people are still
gonna use them cuz they've beenaround for almost 20 years.
So God, I'm old.
Steve (16:34):
I was just thinking is like, because I know like the,
obviously the one, the G one hasbeen around like forever, but
like, I was like thinking of allthe ones that like existed and
have like since like failed ordisappeared,
Chris (16:44):
Olivia.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
I'm old anyway.
Yeah.
And you know, the conversationwent really well, you know, and
we are still in con inconversations on how we can,
like, how they can, how they canstill be better, you know?
Which is good.
I felt really good to like, one,have them reach out, two, set up
a call, three one to continuethe conversation.
Like that just makes me feelgood that they're reaching out
(17:06):
to the people who are actuallyusing their products.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, because a lot of timesthey do these like focus groups.
It's like paid people who comeand they like, lie.
I've done focus groups and I'velied in focus groups, you know,
just to get the coin, you knowwhat I mean?
Do I own amends for that?
Doesn't matter anyway.
Yeah, I, I'm hopeful I'll saythat.
I'm hopeful.
Excellent.
Steve (17:26):
For sure.
And any last words of wisdom oradvice for our listeners about
recovery or about.
Chris (17:31):
You know, this is something that I just need to
hear, like, offer yourself somegrace.
This shit is not easy.
and it is okay to ask for help.
It is okay to ask for help andnot know what that help looks
like.
You know, just, just saying thewords I need help can be
extremely, extremely impactful.
So yeah, that, those would be mywords of advice.
(17:52):
Perfect.
Steve (17:52):
And if someone listening is just so eager to get that
more advice from you, how canthey find you or reach you?
Chris (17:57):
They can find me on Instagram at c p r gives you
life.
That is c p r gives you lifelike, like the mouth to mouth.
Yeah.
Resuscitation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But they're also my initials.
So it's like a, that's a planwords.
Anyway.
That sounds really corny.
No, I
Steve (18:11):
like it.
Chris (18:15):
Excellent.
Yeah, that's
Steve (18:16):
the best way to find me.
Well, thank you so much fortalking about gender.
It was great.
Stick around cuz we'll have ourpost show.
But in the meantime, it was apleasure getting to know you
better, Chris.
Chris (18:27):
Thank you.
Sorry.
Right as I started drinking youYes.
I was like, I time that.
Horribly.
Steve (18:31):
Ok.
You could take a sip while I domy little outro Great.
All right.
Thank you listeners for tuninginto another episode of Gay make
sure to head on over to ourPatreon page if you want to hear
more about Chris as we dive intotalking about dual diagnoses and
treatment in recovery.
Meanwhile, if you're interestedin sharing your story or just
saying, hi, I'm an email away,ga podcast gmail.com or on
(18:53):
Instagram ga podcast.
Be sure to follow us whereveryou're listening right now so
you can get new episodes whenthey come out every Thursday.
Until next time, stay soberfriends.
Hi everyone and welcome to Gay a, a podcast about
sobriety for the LGBT pluscommunity and our allies.
I'm your host, Steve Bennett.
Martin, I am an alcoholic.
I am grateful for all the greattopic episodes I have planned
for the coming months.
As of this recording, I am 626days sober, and today we're
welcoming back friend of thepodcast, Chris, to talk about
(00:24):
discovering your gender inrecovery.
Welcome back.
Chris (00:28):
Hi, Hey, how
Steve (00:30):
are you?
Good.
For listeners that don't alreadyknow you, I definitely recommend
going back to the episode thatwe did last June, but why don't
you tell us what you've been upto since then?
Chris (00:41):
So much has happened since then.
Since June.
Wow.
I so much has happened.
I.
got out of her three yearrelationship, which was really
difficult.
I took a step back from schoolwhich was also really difficult.
I was just spreading myself alittle bit too thin.
I'm doing some upper levels ofservice, and they just were
requiring more time and I wasn'table to show up to all of the
(01:02):
things that I really wanted todo really well.
So it was like, let me just takea step back from school.
I can readdress it once theseother things are done.
And yeah, you know, I'm.
Chair of server retreat thathappens at the end of April.
And we are like in the thick ofplanning.
We will have our first bigfundraiser in a couple of weeks
and registration will open forthat.
(01:23):
And, you know, I'm just that'sbeen my main focus for the last
six months really.
So I'm excited to, to be doingthat.
Steve (01:29):
Excellent.
Well, this episode should belaunching late March to early
April.
Did you wanna plug it real quickbefore we.
Chris (01:35):
Yeah.
So spring clearance, we'll becelebrating our 20th year this
year.
It is a fairly small retreatthat happens in Litchfield
County, Connecticut.
It's about 190 folks who comeup.
So if you're in the tri-statearea or really anywhere and you
want to come you can go to ourInstagram spring clearance it's
spring clearance, or to ourwebsite, spring clearance.org.
Steve (01:55):
Excellent.
I'll be sure to link those overto the show note.
Just in case anyone listening islooking for some fellowship in
the.
And out of all the things youcould come back to discuss, why
did you choose to discuss thetopic of gender?
Chris (02:07):
Oh gosh.
Because I think, it has been thething that has been as I spend
more time here, so like as ofthis recording, I have 2,757
days of recovery.
It's like a little over sevenand a half years.
and.
you know, this work never stops,right?
(02:28):
And as you continue to do thesteps and you continue to do
work, you're discovering newthings about yourself or
rediscovering things as, as thecase may be in my case.
And, you know, gender has beenone of those things that I've
always struggled with.
I'm gonna put in air quotes.
But it has definitely been ahuge reason as to why I used for
many years.
Mm-hmm.
And I felt like for me, it wouldbe important for me to talk
(02:51):
about it at this level.
I think that one of the thingsI've learned in sobriety is
like, the more I talk about it,the less it has power and I
might be able to help someoneelse.
So like, if I can kill two birdswith one stone, let's do it.
Steve (03:03):
Yeah.
That's excellent.
And I'm looking forward to, todiving more into it because I, I
feel like I've learned moreabout gender and just like the.
How it's not all, as all blackand white as I thought it was,
like in recovery and like in therooms.
And so I'm excited to kind ofdive deeper.
Going back like what was, wasyour relationship with gender
growing up like?
Chris (03:20):
Well I was really effeminate growing up and you
know, I was, it was one of thethings that kids noticed about
me first, you know, it was like,first I was black and then I was
really effeminate and so youknow, it really wasn't a
problem.
I had girlfriends in elementaryschool.
It was fine.
I got teased, but then I gotlike really fucking smart and I
(03:40):
got really witty and I like gotreally cutting until like, I
stopped getting picked onbecause it was like I could just
cut you down with my wordsreally easily.
And I also learned how to fight,right?
And so then it really wasn't anissue.
But then I started to train tobe a professional dancer and.
then it sort of became aproblem, not a problem, but it
(04:00):
was sort of, it was suggestedthat if I wanted to be
successful in my career, I hadto dance like a boy.
I had to be a man.
And dancing was one of thosethings that really saved me.
And so I did what I wasinstructed, you know, I butched
it up.
Mm-hmm.
And, and also just for safety,you know Yeah, I just wanted to
be safe and when I came toschool in a full face of makeup
(04:25):
and acrylic meals and, andwomen's clothing and long hair,
like I was never safe, you know?
Mm-hmm.
and.
After a while, I just got tiredof fighting, and so I was like,
let me just make my life easier,and I butched it up and I was
safe and I was able to focus onmy studies and my dancing and
things like that, but I wasdenying a huge part of myself.
(04:50):
And so when I picked up, it madethat easier, you know, it made
it easier for me to deal withthe shame of like denying a part
of myself to the world andthings like that, so, yeah.
Steve (05:02):
Yeah, and I mean, I, I, yeah, I remember like, I had a
similar experience growing upwhere like, I was picked on cuz
it was clear like people knew Iwas gay before, like I knew I
was gay or a feminate like that.
I was like different.
And it was just like whetherthat difference in this, like
hadn't aim for it yet.
Like people knew and I waspicked on and like I did do my
best to kind of fit in as muchas I could, but like I.
(05:25):
I remember like how you saidlike with the drinking, like
that was definitely like a hugepart to be like, okay, nothing
bothers me anymore if I'mdrinking or using.
I mean, how do you feel likethat affected your gender
identity for so long?
Or impacted it?
Chris (05:38):
Well, you know, I think it was a great number.
I didn't care.
Mm-hmm.
I was so focused on the drug andthe, and the drink that it
didn't matter.
You know, I wasn't reallyconcerned about anything else
except for that.
I was like very singleness ofpurpose, right?
Mm-hmm.
like my primary purpose was toget as high as possible all day,
every day.
(05:58):
And so, I just didn't thinkabout it because I couldn't
think about it.
I couldn't think about it, and Icouldn't really investigate.
Also, I didn't really havepeople around to sort of like,
help me investigate what I wasactually feeling.
And that worked for a long time.
And then it stopped working.
And then I got sober and thatsort of started to change.
(06:19):
You know, I'm, I'm lucky I livein New York City where we have a
huge, huge, huge.
Fellowship here, and it's superdiverse.
Like the city itself is superdiverse, right?
And then you get into recovery,it's even more diverse it feels
like, and at least where I'm,where I get my recovery.
Mm-hmm.
And it allowed me the space toreally investigate how I'm
(06:40):
feeling and what's coming up forme and like what have I been
lying to myself or hiding frommyself for many, many years.
out of safety because like, Ifeel safe now, you know, and I
don't need to like hide theseparts away.
And, you know, I think about forme just the visibility of like
non-binary folks and, and transfolks.
(07:01):
Like it's, there's just so muchmore of it today that it, it
again just allowed me to sort ofinvestigate like where.
Who, who am I?
What do I actually feel?
And you know, it really has beenin the last like three or four
years where I was just like,yeah, I don't really identify as
a man, you know?
(07:23):
Mm-hmm.
know I look like one, you know,like you look at me and you're
like, oh yeah, definitely man.
Right?
Like I'm muscular and I, and Ihave like facial hair and I work
back where baseball's caps andtank tops.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
like, you look at me, you think,man, but like, I don't, that's
because it's easy.
Yeah.
This is easy.
This is what I've been doing forthe past 20 years to feel safe.
(07:43):
And so like my wardrobe givesthat, but at the end of the day,
there are days where it's justlike, I'm just gonna wear a full
face and makeup and dress andwhatever just to go to the
supermarket.
Like, and that is also a part ofme, right?
Like and so yeah, it took a lotof conversations with my
therapist and with other transand don binary folks and, you
(08:04):
know, really conversations withmy Howard Power about like, who
am I, who am.
Who am I?
And you know, I think it was,it's been almost two years since
I came out as non-binary.
So yeah.
I don't know if I answered yourquestion.
Yeah, I did.
I
Steve (08:21):
think you did too.
I mean, you, I feel like, youknow, especially as addicts and
as people in like the queercommunity, like we have to come
out multiple times throughoutour life.
Like what was that process ofcoming out like?
Chris (08:32):
It wasn't difficult.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I'm really lucky thatI have an amazing community
around me and I started to likesocially transition.
Mm-hmm.
In the sense that like, I, youknow, presented more fem more
often and I changed my pronounsto Hek for a while.
And, you know, I had hevepronouns for like two years and,
(08:55):
you know I.
Yeah, I think last year or theyear before was like the first
time I just, like, I dropped thehe altogether and just go by
they, them theirs pronouns andit wasn't difficult.
You know, like I said, I'mreally grateful that I have
amazing people around me wholike, get it, you know?
And if they don't get it,they're willing to either ask me
questions that are not insultingor disrespectful or just these
(09:17):
plaque full or do the workthemselves, you know?
And there have been times whereit's like I have to remind
people and there are some peoplelike, who I just like, it
doesn't, I don't, they don'tmatter to me.
So I don't care if you get mypronouns right.
Like you're not, you know, likeif you misgender me, it's fine,
because like, you don't reallyplay a role in my life, you
know?
Yeah.
I'm probably gonna see you maybeonce or twice a year and like,
(09:40):
that's fine.
But for everyone else,everyone's been like, it's been
super easy.
It's been, I'm, I've, I'mreally, I'm really lucky and
fortunate for.
Steve (09:49):
Yeah.
And what about how, likediscovering that has enhanced or
like affected your recovery andyour
Chris (09:56):
sobriety?
Oh gosh.
You know, we talk about rigoroushonesty.
Mm-hmm.
and I think it's allowed me tobe rigorously honest.
It, you know, I think not that Iwas like keeping a secret.
but I wasn't being honest withmyself and I, and, and, and in
turn wasn't being honest withthe rest of the world.
(10:17):
And I definitely felt lighter,you know?
Which is, which was interestingto sort of like have that
experience because I felt prettylight, you know, having done the
steps and like, you know, bearedeverything to my, you know, I've
done it, but like all the thingsI thought I had done all that
stuff It's been great and italso has allowed me to sponsor
other folks and connect withother folks who are also gender
(10:39):
nonconforming and genderexpansive folks, you know, and
build community there as well.
Which, you know, I can, I alwayssay this, like, you can never
have a big enough network, youknow and, and.
Yeah, I think it's only juststrengthened my sobriety and I'm
really grateful for it.
You know, I'm grateful that I, Ifeel safe enough that I can,
like, share these things aboutmyself with the people that are
(11:01):
around me and, yeah.
Steve (11:05):
Yeah.
And what, what kind of advicewould you give to someone if
they listen or listening to thisepisode be, and they're like
confused or figuring out orworking on discovering their
gender?
Like what are some things thatthey can do or ask themselves or
think about?
Chris (11:17):
Oh, I would say do whatever the fuck you want.
Yeah.
It changes for me daily.
Mm-hmm.
you know.
And so like the way you'refeeling today may not be the way
that you're feeling tomorrow,and that is absolutely okay.
It does not invalidate any ofthose two experiences.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
If you were three months downyour like gender discovery.
(11:41):
Like discovery and you realizethat like, mm, no, I'm not
non-binary, or I'm not this ornot.
That's fine.
You can do whatever you want.
Like it's your body only youwill be able to tell what's
going on.
And I would say try to just findpeople in community and talk
about it as often as possiblewith those people who have that
shared experience.
(12:02):
You know, I think the internetis a great resource.
internet is a great resource.
It is like the devil in manyways, but like the amount of
people that I've been able toconnect with just via Instagram
has been really, really, reallyamazing and helpful.
And there's a lot of informationout there.
So just go find thatinformation, find those people,
and listen to your head andyour.
(12:23):
That's what I would say.
Yeah.
Steve (12:24):
Yeah.
If, if you can give your, let'ssay, 10 year old self, like a
bit of advice, looking backabout discovering yourself, what
kind of advice would you giveyour younger self?
Chris (12:35):
You know, at 10 I was really good.
Mm-hmm.
I think it would be like my 14year, 15 year old self.
Okay.
I would say, I would say tothat, that kid, that version of
Chris, I would say don't listento them.
I would say do what feels bestfor you.
Block out the rest of the noise.
You know exactly who you are andwhat you want to do, and just do
(12:58):
that.
everything else will work out, Ipromise.
Steve (13:02):
That's great advice.
And I know that one of thethings that kind of like tripped
me up or got me confused as Iwas like learning about like my
gender and where, where I fitinto all that was like that it
can be like different than likeyour sexuality and like your
sexual preferences and like, canyou talk a little bit more about
like how you differentiate thetwo and like how they interact
(13:22):
with each other and stuff like.
Chris (13:25):
Yeah.
And I think that that's been areally interesting discovery for
me as a late, as like, you know,I'm recently single and I'm back
on the apps again.
Mm-hmm.
and like, you know being on theapps as a non-binary person is
really, it's not fun.
especially in the, like, the,you know, the male dominated
spaces.
Mm-hmm.
it's just really interesting.
But what I will say is that,Sexuality and gender are two
(13:47):
different things.
Mm-hmm.
there are two different thingsand I'm sort of rediscovering
like my sexuality and like whatthat means for me.
I don't know.
I think, you know, I'm attractedto men, whether it be cis men or
trans men.
I'm attracted to men.
Mm-hmm.
There have been women that I'mattracted to, but like, that's
like a one-off every, you know,every 10 years maybe.
Yeah.
But.
(14:10):
Yeah.
What would I say about that?
I don't know that they're justtwo different things and you
know, just like with gender,it's, it's a constant
exploration.
It may differ today than it doestomorrow, and allow yourself the
grace to figure that out.
Yeah.
You know, and there's no shamein anything cuz like it's 2023,
we should not be shaming peopleby who they're attracted to.
Yeah.
You know,
Steve (14:29):
like preach
Chris (14:32):
So.
Steve (14:32):
Yeah.
And I'm sure you have tons ofhorror stories from the apps,
but can you tell us about like apositive interaction that you've
had with someone, like intalking about gender?
Chris (14:41):
Yeah.
I just had some really horribleexperiences recently.
So like, all I can think about.
Not having to read people for apill, but would just be like,
Google is a free resource.
Yeah.
Please use I will say that veryrecently I've been having some
really wonderful conversationswith other trans folks on the
apps and just like findingcommunity there and I did have a
(15:03):
really good conversation withone of the developers of this
new app called Motto, and we hada really, really, really amazing
conversation.
Not only around like genderexpansive folks on the app, but
also like people of color on theapps and how they can better be
inclusive and how they can likemarket themselves differently
and how they can like bedifferent than the other apps
that we encounter.
Because they all are essentiallythe same and they're all pretty
(15:24):
trash and they.
Yeah.
It was really nice to like justsit down with someone and be
like, listen, this is myexperience and this is how I
think that you could be better.
So those have been some goodexperiences.
It's just like, yeah, people whoask questions who are actually
genuinely concerned.
People who read profiles
Steve (15:39):
Yeah.
I'm, I'm more interested to, I,I'm interested in hearing more
about that, that conversationwith the app.
What, what was some of yourfeedback or your.
Chris (15:45):
You know, I think the app is brand new and they're still
trying to figure out what theirlane is.
And I think for me, I just waslike, get clear about that.
And I also You know, therewasn't, they had dropped on
menus for like gender and thingslike that, but there wasn't like
any explanations as to like whatthose things might be because
like people still don't know,like, you know, like people just
(16:06):
don't know because they like tosay blissfully ignorant or they
have their own biases orwhatever.
And so it's just like offeringthat and.
You know, just really figuringout how they're gonna be
different.
You know, I was just like, it'syour job to figure out how
you're gonna be differentbecause we have a lot of apps at
our disposal and if you're gonnastay in this game, you know, cuz
the ones that are there arepretty well established.
(16:27):
Right.
And like, whether they're trashor not, like people are still
gonna use them cuz they've beenaround for almost 20 years.
So God, I'm old.
Steve (16:34):
I was just thinking is like, because I know like the,
obviously the one, the G one hasbeen around like forever, but
like, I was like thinking of allthe ones that like existed and
have like since like failed ordisappeared,
Chris (16:44):
Olivia.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
I'm old anyway.
Yeah.
And you know, the conversationwent really well, you know, and
we are still in con inconversations on how we can,
like, how they can, how they canstill be better, you know?
Which is good.
I felt really good to like, one,have them reach out, two, set up
a call, three one to continuethe conversation.
Like that just makes me feelgood that they're reaching out
(17:06):
to the people who are actuallyusing their products.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, because a lot of timesthey do these like focus groups.
It's like paid people who comeand they like, lie.
I've done focus groups and I'velied in focus groups, you know,
just to get the coin, you knowwhat I mean?
Do I own amends for that?
Doesn't matter anyway.
Yeah, I, I'm hopeful I'll saythat.
I'm hopeful.
Excellent.
Steve (17:26):
For sure.
And any last words of wisdom oradvice for our listeners about
recovery or about.
Chris (17:31):
You know, this is something that I just need to
hear, like, offer yourself somegrace.
This shit is not easy.
and it is okay to ask for help.
It is okay to ask for help andnot know what that help looks
like.
You know, just, just saying thewords I need help can be
extremely, extremely impactful.
So yeah, that, those would be mywords of advice.
(17:52):
Perfect.
Steve (17:52):
And if someone listening is just so eager to get that
more advice from you, how canthey find you or reach you?
Chris (17:57):
They can find me on Instagram at c p r gives you
life.
That is c p r gives you lifelike, like the mouth to mouth.
Yeah.
Resuscitation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But they're also my initials.
So it's like a, that's a planwords.
Anyway.
That sounds really corny.
No, I
Steve (18:11):
like it.
Chris (18:15):
Excellent.
Yeah, that's
Steve (18:16):
the best way to find me.
Well, thank you so much fortalking about gender.
It was great.
Stick around cuz we'll have ourpost show.
But in the meantime, it was apleasure getting to know you
better, Chris.
Chris (18:27):
Thank you.
Sorry.
Right as I started drinking youYes.
I was like, I time that.
Horribly.
Steve (18:31):
Ok.
You could take a sip while I domy little outro Great.
All right.
Thank you listeners for tuninginto another episode of Gay make
sure to head on over to ourPatreon page if you want to hear
more about Chris as we dive intotalking about dual diagnoses and
treatment in recovery.
Meanwhile, if you're interestedin sharing your story or just
saying, hi, I'm an email away,ga podcast gmail.com or on
(18:53):
Instagram ga podcast.
Be sure to follow us whereveryou're listening right now so
you can get new episodes whenthey come out every Thursday.
Until next time, stay soberfriends.
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