January 9, 2025 • 25 mins
Hey there, Super Sober Heroes! This week on Gay A, I’m joined by returning guest and podcast favorite, Mark, as we dive into the transformative power of sobriety and how it’s helped him embrace his authentic queer self.
From growing up in a Catholic family with strict gender norms to navigating the complexities of being openly gay in the workplace, Mark shares his journey of self-discovery, healing, and unapologetically owning his queerness—brooches, skirts, and all!
We also discuss:
🌈 Reconnecting with queerness after decades of societal and self-imposed barriers
🌟 How sobriety teaches us to relearn lessons we’ve forgotten
💔 The impact of loss on sobriety and self-growth
💪 Why authenticity is a practice, not a destination
Whether you’re navigating your own queer identity, seeking inspiration to live authentically, or just here for Mark’s fabulousness, this episode is a must-listen!
Connect with Mark:
Follow him on Instagram: @HeyMarko8
Join the Conversation:
🌟 What steps have you taken to live your most authentic self?
🌟 How has sobriety helped you reconnect with your identity?
Let us know! Email us or connect on socials @GayAPodcast.
Don’t Miss Out!
Follow Gay A wherever you listen to podcasts for new episodes every Thursday!
#GayAPodcast #QueerSobriety #LivingAuthentically #LGBTQRecovery #SobrietyJourney #QueerCommunity #SoberLife
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steve (00:04):
Hey there, Super Sober Heroes.
Welcome to Gay A.
I'm your host, Sober Steve, thepodcast guy, and I'm here today
with Mark.
Welcome back, Mark.
Mark (00:12):
Hello.
Hey, everybody.
Steve (00:15):
And Mark has been on the show plenty of times.
I almost forgot, I am 1, 315days sober today.
So I am very excited and I amgrateful to have you back on the
show, Mark, because you havebeen on, this is your fourth or
fifth time now, I want to say?
Yes.
Yeah, you're just a part of thefamily now.
So what's been new in your lifesince, the last run?
(00:36):
I think it was probably in thespring or last year.
Mark (00:40):
Yeah, it was last year sometime, I believe.
Life is lifey, very busy.
Generally good, right?
Work, things of that nature.
I lost my mom in June, which wasprobably the biggest test of my,
Not just sobriety, but my soberthinking, sober actions, and all
of those kinds of things.
(01:01):
If anybody listened back to thefirst podcast where I told just
my story, she was a very bigpart of me getting sober.
And a huge piece of my earlyrecovery.
She was integrally involved.
And knowing that it's a funnytangent story, we found her step
work from away as we werecleaning her apartment and my
(01:23):
sister was like, what is this?
I'm like, don't you read thatbag?
We're throwing it away.
Steve (01:30):
Yeah,
Mark (01:31):
none of us need to know what was in her step work at
this point.
Steve (01:34):
Yeah.
No good can come from that.
Mark (01:36):
No good can come from that.
Steve (01:38):
No.
I love that.
And looking back on your lifetoday, what is your favorite
part of being sober?
Mark (01:46):
I think my favorite part of being sober is that I keep
learning new parts of.
what it means to be sober.
I'm still teachable, right?
Just because I have 19 yearsdoes not mean I know everything,
right?
Like I continue to find piecesto work on.
I continue to find new ways todo that work and find new ways
(02:10):
to especially the apply thesethings to all of our affairs
part.
Steve (02:14):
Yeah.
And I've been learning as wellas not only am I learning a lot
of new things, It's more nowthan like I would year after
year when I was in my addiction,like I'm growing a lot quicker
in sobriety, but I also amhaving to relearn a lot of
lessons that I've I learnedsomething like, Oh wait, I knew
that a year ago, or I knew thattwo years ago, like a life
lesson or a moral, or that wehave that built in forgetter.
I feel like happens with morethan just alcohol, but a lot of
(02:35):
times it's the things that weshould know about ourselves or
feel about ourselves that weforget.
Mark (02:39):
Posted on New Year's Eve.
That my biggest lesson learnedwas that when things get really
tough and heavy, the fakefriends shake out of the tree
and run and the real friendssolidify their place in your
life.
And someone commented, youtaught me that 10 years ago when
I got sober and I was like isn'tit funny that I had to relearn
it myself.
Steve (02:59):
Yeah we forget and then we remember.
Mark (03:01):
Somebody helps us remember when they show up in our lives
in a certain way.
And, you have to relearn thelesson.
Steve (03:08):
Yeah.
Excellent.
And what is your favorite partof being a member of the queer
community today?
Mark (03:14):
I am still learning and that's what we're going to talk
about.
Yeah.
How to authenticallyparticipate, in my queerness
without hangups and just notworry about what other people
think, which was the big partof.
Why I got drunk, why I got high,right?
(03:35):
Worrying about what other peoplethink.
Is my third year out of Catholiceducation, right?
I worked in Catholic educationfor a long time.
So being able to reconnect with,my queerness in a new way that I
never had that experiencebefore, right?
Is something that continues tobroaden and deepen as I really
(04:00):
begin to like, and it all stemsout of being sober, right?
Because one of the goals of mysobriety is to really be the
most authentic version of myselfthat I can possibly be, which
gratefully keeps evolving andchanging, right?
It's not Oh, I found this greatMark, and I'm going to stick
(04:20):
with him right now.
But because I continue to dowork and connect with people and
go to meetings I continue tofind new ways to develop.
And I think particularly forpeople of a certain age who had
so much, placed upon them thatsomebody who maybe is burgeoning
(04:45):
queer now wouldn't have to dealwith as much.
Yeah.
It's been quite an experiencethis past couple years.
Steve (04:56):
I can only imagine because my experience in some
ways is so very different.
I was even talking with someonerecently who said.
I think 40s and this in thecloset and like married and with
kids and I'm just like to mewith my shared experience of
being a very flamboyant child.
So when I started telling peoplein high school that I was
bisexual, they all knew it was agateway to the coming out as
gay.
(05:16):
And I was fully like out as gayby senior year like everyone but
my family and then the familyknew and everyone knew it was
very much like I've known nowand I've been out for more of my
life than I was in the closet.
So when I hear these storiesabout people that are in the
closet or.
It's just, it blows my mind.
But like I also know thatthere's different generations
have different things as well.
Different parts of the countryhave different, things that you
(05:36):
have people feel like they haveto like, have these rules that
they were raised with by theirparents or their grandparents
that like, this is how it has tobe and you have to break those
rules in sobriety.
Mark (05:45):
Yeah.
So I was born in 1970.
Steve (05:47):
Yeah.
Mark (05:48):
The generation directly ahead of me was super queer,
right?
Because they were out on thefront lines fighting for the
rights.
Of the community.
And then that's also thegeneration that was the AIDS
epidemic.
So I'm just shy of that.
So like the AIDS epidemic wasduring the like my college
(06:08):
years.
So I was still not out anddidn't really know how to
identify with any of that.
So like I grew up in the suburbsof New Jersey, New York city
adjacent, but far enough awayThat like old norms, right?
(06:33):
Like you got to figure I'm theyoungest of eight.
So my parents were in theiralmost forties when I was born.
Yeah.
So they grew up in the thirties,forties, fifties, right?
That was their coming of age.
Very different.
My father was Italian American,former Marine, guy's guy, right?
(06:53):
There were very specific genderroles in the family.
We were also Catholic.
We were not like, ah, crazyCatholic, but we were Catholic.
So there were certain thingsthat were, that were just were.
And then when I also look atthat, there's this time period,
cause I'm also behind fivesisters where.
(07:16):
Nobody cared if I put on a pairof high heels.
Nobody cared if I threw on Idid, I mostly snuck around.
But, there was this very briefperiod where if I did something
that was feminine or was girly,it wasn't immediately corrected.
(07:37):
And then my mother startedcorrecting that and shaming it
right before I went out toschool.
And she would say she alsokilled my imaginary friend.
She got hit by a bus.
I couldn't send you tokindergarten with an imaginary
friend.
They would have made fun of you,these things happened and in
their minds.
It was for protection.
(07:58):
I was talking to my sister atChristmas and I was like, there
was this pair of clip onearrings that I.
Had hidden in my desk drawer,and I would wear them to do my
homework.
And, my mother must have beencleaning, and she found them in
the desk drawer one day, andthen they were gone, and I never
saw them again.
Funny story, cleaning herapartment after she died, guess
(08:19):
what I found?
Oh, you found them, wow.
And I just, I was in theapartment by myself, and I just
cackled and was like, I got themback! Yeah.
So it's.
Knowing that there was thislittle boy who before really
understanding because I believethat my addiction began before I
(08:42):
ever picked up a drink, before Iever picked up a drug, right?
It was the hiding.
It was the shame.
It was the make believe.
It was the fantasy.
All of those pieces reallystarted to fall into place after
I was told you can't be this.
Yep.
So I had this epiphany when Ileft Catholic education.
(09:04):
I was watching an episode ofwe're here on HBO and then we're
in Florida and it was the oldguy whose mother still thought
ah, she just had a friend.
I was 60 something years old andhe's still afraid to live his
truth.
And I was like, Whoa, holy shit.
(09:25):
And I realized that even aftercoming out after college, I was
still under my family, to acertain extent, where I wasn't
being fully myself.
Then I had this brief timebefore I began to drink
alcoholically, where I startedto connect with some gayness.
(09:48):
But then that immediately led todiscomfort, feeling
uncomfortable compare anddespair, being around all these
other gay men.
I wasn't used to it.
I didn't know how to do it.
I didn't know how to connect forsex in any other way than going
on a phone line and showing upat someone's apartment and
having sex.
I didn't communicate and how tomeet people.
(10:10):
And so I just drank myself tooblivion.
So like when that piecehappened, and then I went from
that into drug addiction.
And then I went from that into Ihad this very brief glimmer
where I was a teacher in aCatholic school, and I worked
for these 2 amazing nuns whodidn't give a shit.
(10:31):
They were like, they kneweverything about my life and
they loved me more for itbecause of that.
So I had this brief glimmer.
I still was a little bit carefulbecause families didn't know
kids didn't know.
So there was still an element ofcloseted ness to it.
Into becoming a Catholic schoolprincipal where within my first
like week, someone told me thatthis woman had seen my Facebook
(10:54):
and was trying to tell peoplethat I was gay and get me fired.
Right?
Which immediately was like wallwent up.
My niece and I immediately werelike, how do we shut it down.
And I became unsearchable and Iloved my job.
I really fucking loved my job.
I was really good at it, too.
So I made this, again, sacrificeto not fully be.
(11:19):
I wasn't fooling anybody, let'sbe honest.
But it was just I think what itbecame was people liked me so
much that it was like, this isthe unspoken, we don't talk
about this.
For his protection.
Steve (11:35):
Yeah, I feel like that's why I strive to be like, and so
many of gay boys, I have thatgood old boy syndrome, we try
and be as perfect as we possiblycan and every other thing in our
life, because it was make anexcuse for the one thing that
everyone knows, but they won'tlook if they see the other.
Mark (11:49):
But anytime I had to discipline a child, have an
argument with a parentdiscipline, an employee.
Somewhere in the back of my headfor three days after that thing,
it would always be like, is thisthe person who's going to try to
get me fast forward into COVID?
Spent a lot of time by myself,it really became the topic of
(12:13):
therapy.
Authentically being all of meand not being like, you're
allowed to know this, but you'renot allowed to know that.
And this and that, andunderstanding that like this
career paths got to changebecause it's holding me back
from being this authentic selfthat I've done all of this work
in sobriety on all of this workin therapy on, and I knew it
(12:38):
was, The day it was numbered,like it was got, it had to
change.
And then as I go back, likeparents are getting younger and
cooler and wanting to be like,Hey, let's fix you up with one
of my friends.
And I'm like, we're not havingthis conversation here.
Yeah.
You know that I can still befired for this.
And they'd be like that'sridiculous.
(12:58):
And the more I had to go, yeah,you're right.
The more it was like, okay, gotit.
Got to move.
Yeah.
Okay.
So now I'm out, I'm out of theplace.
Everybody knows nobody wassurprised, et cetera, et cetera.
But then I had that aha ofthrough all of that, I'd say I
connected with my gayness, butnever really with my queerness.
(13:23):
And there's a very subtledifference there, right?
Gay sex, no problem.
Gay bars, no problem.
But fully participating inexpressing myself exactly how I
want to.
Yeah.
However I want to.
Whether it was piercing my earsat 53, or wearing a fucking Tom
(13:46):
of Finland shirt, right?
Or, painting my nails, The firsttime I did it, I was so nervous.
I was like, Oh, what are peoplegoing to say?
Yeah.
Hey, I'm wearing a skirt, whichis like fashionable.
Also, comfortable, lots of malemodels and famous male stars who
(14:08):
are not gay wear skirts now.
But like in my head there I hadthat battle with Really trying
to unpack and discard like oldideas that were set upon me that
had become inner monologues of,it's not okay for you to do
(14:30):
that, right?
It's not okay.
So it's interesting also to havethis discovery in your 50s
because people are like.
What's going on with you?
What are you doing suddenly?
And for the most part in my gaycommunity, especially in my
(14:51):
recovery community, you're on myInstagram, you see the outfits I
put together, right?
I'm not afraid to put on a highheel.
Steve (14:59):
We all get it though, because we're all sober and
we're all growing like crazy.
Mark (15:04):
I have a ginormous brooch collection, which I, to this
day, it is my way of honoringthat little boy who wanted to
wear those fucking earrings todo his homework.
Steve (15:14):
Yeah, and the brooches get bigger, yeah, as the event
gets bigger.
Mark (15:18):
Love it.
Just not being afraid to just dothings that make me feel happy
and gay and queer.
And also like just being able toconnect to the issues in our
community, right?
Speak up, speak out, try tovolunteer and show up and help
(15:41):
organizations, so that the worldis fucked, especially this
country in 2 weeks, right?
It's like, how do I show up formy community as a gay sober
male, right?
I didn't have the luxury until Iwas much later in my 20s.
(16:02):
Of having gay role models.
Steve (16:05):
Yeah, I was so honored like last year when the place
that I volunteer also youth,it's like for youth that are
queer in our community ages, Ithink eight through 18 or like
12 through 18 or something likethat.
But they do after schoolprograms and things like that.
And they had me speak to talkabout what it's like doing your
own business type of thing aslike an entrepreneur, as someone
who's out and gay in Florida orSarasota.
So it was just interestinghaving like them hope.
(16:27):
And like I mentioned my surpriseand they're Oh because it's
cool.
Cause they're like, Oh, myuncle's like sober.
Cause it's cool.
And I guess now some of theirfriends, that can drink, that
are in their twenties identifyas sober, but they weren't
alcoholics who blew up theirlife.
They just didn't like the timethat they won drank that one
time.
And they were like, stopped.
I'm like, that's awesome though.
That's socially acceptable andcool now.
I remember when I was younger,it was like, If you were 21, I
(16:48):
expected that you would bedrinking and everybody throwing
drinks at you.
And with a lot of these kidsnow, it's okay if you say no or
that you're not interested.
And there's not, that's doesn'tseem to be that same type of
peer pressure.
Or expectation.
Mark (16:59):
Yeah.
And it, look, I still have timeswhere I worry about safety,
right?
We all do, walking to and fromthe train here in Jersey City to
get into Manhattan, in anoutfit.
Sometimes people are like, yes,and sometimes people are like,
what the fuck are you doinghere?
Steve (17:21):
bright blue hair.
I get it where I get cheered onby most people or I'll get the
looks and I'm just like, yeah,we'll try and mess with me at
this point.
But that depends on how I'mfeeling that day.
Cause if I'm feeling insecure,then I'll be thinking about that
look that one person gave me forthe next hour and a half.
But if I'm in a good head space,I can just know that's not about
me.
That's about them.
It's just really depends on meat that point.
Mark (17:41):
Yeah.
And honestly, I'm trying not tobe that compartmentalizer
anymore.
It isn't always easy, right?
Because I still work with kids,right?
So as much as I'm out at work,kids don't even ask.
Like I have one kid that I'mvery close to and we had a pride
(18:03):
celebration, so I had on aRainbow T-shirt and one of the
kids at the table was like, soare you gay?
And I looked at him and waslike, what do you care?
And the kid who's my buddy atthe table was like, and I texted
his mom and was like, did heever ask you?
And she's no, he never asked.
So I'm not saying anything.
(18:23):
Yeah.
And to see fifth, sixth andseventh graders experimenting
with their, am I a they?
Am I a them?
Am I queer?
Am I not queer?
Am I bisexual?
Am I going to kiss a girl?
Am I going to kiss a boy?
It's good for you.
Yeah, the change of.
Steve (18:40):
Work I'm sure helped with a lot of this, but like what
else socially changed were someof your aha moments where you
would say you went from beingmore gay to being part of the
queer community?
Mark (18:52):
Amazingly enough, like that realization of watching
that episode, right?
So like having representation,right?
Like it's so important for menow to watch queer TV, queer
movies, read queer literature,right?
To just, Continue to seeexamples, right?
Of people living theirauthentic.
(19:13):
My best friend is Frankie.
Frankie, you can't escapequeerness when you're hanging
out with that one.
And that's a motivator, right?
Like I, I just like sobriety,right?
Where your tribe, your truetribe becomes people who
sobriety you admire.
It's a very similar vibe for me.
(19:36):
People who are being authentic,people who are authentically
themselves and in theirqueerness are inspiring to me
and push me.
To do more and take more risksand push more boundaries for
myself within a comfort zone,and it's sometimes still
(19:56):
uncomfortable.
Steve (19:59):
Yeah, but I think that's part of it.
At least I was reflecting backanything good that happened to
me last year.
I was scared beforehand and Iwas uncomfortable beforehand,
but I did it anyway and it wasawesome.
Mark (20:08):
Yeah.
In that bedroom back there, whenI'm putting the outfit on, I
will second guess.
I will be like, am I reallygoing to walk to the train?
Do I have a bigger coat?
Should I drive instead?
Like I'll go through all ofthat.
Cuckoo bananas shit in my headand then at the end of the day
be like fuck it.
This is what I want to do.
I think I look amazing rightnow, right?
(20:30):
I'm going to a queer space.
Steve (20:34):
Yeah, I think that it's so important to share that
because a lot of times peoplesee what we post Because both of
us were cover out loud But we'realso ourselves out loud on
social media and they see youout with the brooches and
looking fabulous And they seelike me doing my like things
online and they think oh wowThis person's so brave because
they must have no fear and theydon't know what, like the back
(20:56):
story is like when you're inyour room, having those concerns
and having those fears.
So I think like being able toshare it's not a matter of that
people who are living theirtruth, aren't afraid of living
their truth is that we've justlearned that we just have to do
it anyway, because that freeingfeeling is worth it.
Mark (21:11):
Correct, right?
I'm 19 years away from a drinkor a drug.
But I live with this thing everyday.
Oh, yeah.
And I think one of the biggestaha moments for me in all of my
step work was realizing that andI don't know if I've ever told
this story before, but readingthe more about alcoholism
chapter, like our whole lives,we wish you could drink like
(21:34):
normal people, our entiredrinking careers, we were this,
we were that.
And my sponsor at the time waslike, hold on, I want you to
reread that paragraph.
And I want you to changewherever it says drink to
thinking, think, and wherever itsays drinking to thinking.
Yeah.
And I was like, Oh, all of asudden, I wish I could think
like a normal person.
Steve (21:54):
At least like once a day, like one of my sober friends,
I'm like, I had this thought tothis situation.
And thanks to sobriety, I knowthis thought is batshit crazy
balls to the walls.
Why would that be my gutreaction?
Yeah, I'm like, thank God.
I know now I can think itthrough and then text you and
laugh about it rather thanacting and thinking I was being
normal.
Mark (22:14):
Yeah, this exact same sponsor.
I would be like, listen, I'vebeen thinking and he'd go stop
right there because that's thefirst mistake.
So I still live with my own headand like sobriety, being my
authentic self, being myauthentic queer self.
Is a practice, right?
(22:35):
And pushing a boundary is apractice and it's a practice
that luckily I've learnedthrough sobriety, right?
I can take the principles thatI've learned in the 12 steps and
apply them to anything.
And.
If I've learned anything, it'sthat life is short, right.
In losing my mom this past year,really hit home to life is short
(23:01):
and I have to do whatever I haveto do.
Like she was the most acceptingperson in my life, which is why
her calling me a dirtymotherfucker was my breaking
point.
Even in talking about Advancingin Catholic education, even in
her later years were like herthinking wasn't always sharp.
(23:22):
I remember having thatconversation and her grabbing my
hand at the table and going, youcan never advance there because
you can't be you.
You need to go.
Yeah.
And knowing that, like thatwhole thing started with my
coming out was very weirdbecause I told my brother first
(23:43):
and he told my mother when hewasn't supposed to.
And she asked me and I dropped abowl of peas on the ground.
I was like I guess you got youranswer.
Yeah.
And she went through all thosephases of you're my son.
I don't care to I hate this andI hate you.
And then back.
And same happened with my dad.
It was a very weirdconversation.
He offered me 25, 000 to marry awoman.
(24:06):
Asked me if I'd ever had sexwith a, it was very strange.
Again, everything that was wrongwith me, he would tie back to
cause you're gay.
And then fast forward intosobriety and I'm driving their
car and we're going somewhere.
And he goes, I hope you can meeta nice rich guy one day.
(24:28):
And I was like, I've arrived.
Steve (24:29):
Yeah, there you go.
That's what we all want,
Mark (24:32):
And like knowing that at that point, the pressure valve
from family was released.
I still lost time because ofother choices I was making
career wise.
And now I feel like there's noway I am going to be sacrificing
(24:53):
any more of my time for anybody.
Steve (24:57):
I love that.
And I think that is a greatplace to end it for now, but
we'll have you back on realsoon.
If people wanted to connect withyou and follow all your fabulous
fierce adventures online, howwould they do that?
Mark (25:09):
It's HeyMarco, H E Y M A R K O and the number eight, cause
I'm the eighth child in myfamily.
Steve (25:17):
Excellent.
Sounds good.
Yeah.
I will link over to all that inthe show notes.
So thank you listeners fortuning into another episode of
and we'll see you next week.
Hey there, Super Sober Heroes.
Welcome to Gay A.
I'm your host, Sober Steve, thepodcast guy, and I'm here today
with Mark.
Welcome back, Mark.
Mark (00:12):
Hello.
Hey, everybody.
Steve (00:15):
And Mark has been on the show plenty of times.
I almost forgot, I am 1, 315days sober today.
So I am very excited and I amgrateful to have you back on the
show, Mark, because you havebeen on, this is your fourth or
fifth time now, I want to say?
Yes.
Yeah, you're just a part of thefamily now.
So what's been new in your lifesince, the last run?
(00:36):
I think it was probably in thespring or last year.
Mark (00:40):
Yeah, it was last year sometime, I believe.
Life is lifey, very busy.
Generally good, right?
Work, things of that nature.
I lost my mom in June, which wasprobably the biggest test of my,
Not just sobriety, but my soberthinking, sober actions, and all
of those kinds of things.
(01:01):
If anybody listened back to thefirst podcast where I told just
my story, she was a very bigpart of me getting sober.
And a huge piece of my earlyrecovery.
She was integrally involved.
And knowing that it's a funnytangent story, we found her step
work from away as we werecleaning her apartment and my
(01:23):
sister was like, what is this?
I'm like, don't you read thatbag?
We're throwing it away.
Steve (01:30):
Yeah,
Mark (01:31):
none of us need to know what was in her step work at
this point.
Steve (01:34):
Yeah.
No good can come from that.
Mark (01:36):
No good can come from that.
Steve (01:38):
No.
I love that.
And looking back on your lifetoday, what is your favorite
part of being sober?
Mark (01:46):
I think my favorite part of being sober is that I keep
learning new parts of.
what it means to be sober.
I'm still teachable, right?
Just because I have 19 yearsdoes not mean I know everything,
right?
Like I continue to find piecesto work on.
I continue to find new ways todo that work and find new ways
(02:10):
to especially the apply thesethings to all of our affairs
part.
Steve (02:14):
Yeah.
And I've been learning as wellas not only am I learning a lot
of new things, It's more nowthan like I would year after
year when I was in my addiction,like I'm growing a lot quicker
in sobriety, but I also amhaving to relearn a lot of
lessons that I've I learnedsomething like, Oh wait, I knew
that a year ago, or I knew thattwo years ago, like a life
lesson or a moral, or that wehave that built in forgetter.
I feel like happens with morethan just alcohol, but a lot of
(02:35):
times it's the things that weshould know about ourselves or
feel about ourselves that weforget.
Mark (02:39):
Posted on New Year's Eve.
That my biggest lesson learnedwas that when things get really
tough and heavy, the fakefriends shake out of the tree
and run and the real friendssolidify their place in your
life.
And someone commented, youtaught me that 10 years ago when
I got sober and I was like isn'tit funny that I had to relearn
it myself.
Steve (02:59):
Yeah we forget and then we remember.
Mark (03:01):
Somebody helps us remember when they show up in our lives
in a certain way.
And, you have to relearn thelesson.
Steve (03:08):
Yeah.
Excellent.
And what is your favorite partof being a member of the queer
community today?
Mark (03:14):
I am still learning and that's what we're going to talk
about.
Yeah.
How to authenticallyparticipate, in my queerness
without hangups and just notworry about what other people
think, which was the big partof.
Why I got drunk, why I got high,right?
(03:35):
Worrying about what other peoplethink.
Is my third year out of Catholiceducation, right?
I worked in Catholic educationfor a long time.
So being able to reconnect with,my queerness in a new way that I
never had that experiencebefore, right?
Is something that continues tobroaden and deepen as I really
(04:00):
begin to like, and it all stemsout of being sober, right?
Because one of the goals of mysobriety is to really be the
most authentic version of myselfthat I can possibly be, which
gratefully keeps evolving andchanging, right?
It's not Oh, I found this greatMark, and I'm going to stick
(04:20):
with him right now.
But because I continue to dowork and connect with people and
go to meetings I continue tofind new ways to develop.
And I think particularly forpeople of a certain age who had
so much, placed upon them thatsomebody who maybe is burgeoning
(04:45):
queer now wouldn't have to dealwith as much.
Yeah.
It's been quite an experiencethis past couple years.
Steve (04:56):
I can only imagine because my experience in some
ways is so very different.
I was even talking with someonerecently who said.
I think 40s and this in thecloset and like married and with
kids and I'm just like to mewith my shared experience of
being a very flamboyant child.
So when I started telling peoplein high school that I was
bisexual, they all knew it was agateway to the coming out as
gay.
(05:16):
And I was fully like out as gayby senior year like everyone but
my family and then the familyknew and everyone knew it was
very much like I've known nowand I've been out for more of my
life than I was in the closet.
So when I hear these storiesabout people that are in the
closet or.
It's just, it blows my mind.
But like I also know thatthere's different generations
have different things as well.
Different parts of the countryhave different, things that you
(05:36):
have people feel like they haveto like, have these rules that
they were raised with by theirparents or their grandparents
that like, this is how it has tobe and you have to break those
rules in sobriety.
Mark (05:45):
Yeah.
So I was born in 1970.
Steve (05:47):
Yeah.
Mark (05:48):
The generation directly ahead of me was super queer,
right?
Because they were out on thefront lines fighting for the
rights.
Of the community.
And then that's also thegeneration that was the AIDS
epidemic.
So I'm just shy of that.
So like the AIDS epidemic wasduring the like my college
(06:08):
years.
So I was still not out anddidn't really know how to
identify with any of that.
So like I grew up in the suburbsof New Jersey, New York city
adjacent, but far enough awayThat like old norms, right?
(06:33):
Like you got to figure I'm theyoungest of eight.
So my parents were in theiralmost forties when I was born.
Yeah.
So they grew up in the thirties,forties, fifties, right?
That was their coming of age.
Very different.
My father was Italian American,former Marine, guy's guy, right?
(06:53):
There were very specific genderroles in the family.
We were also Catholic.
We were not like, ah, crazyCatholic, but we were Catholic.
So there were certain thingsthat were, that were just were.
And then when I also look atthat, there's this time period,
cause I'm also behind fivesisters where.
(07:16):
Nobody cared if I put on a pairof high heels.
Nobody cared if I threw on Idid, I mostly snuck around.
But, there was this very briefperiod where if I did something
that was feminine or was girly,it wasn't immediately corrected.
(07:37):
And then my mother startedcorrecting that and shaming it
right before I went out toschool.
And she would say she alsokilled my imaginary friend.
She got hit by a bus.
I couldn't send you tokindergarten with an imaginary
friend.
They would have made fun of you,these things happened and in
their minds.
It was for protection.
(07:58):
I was talking to my sister atChristmas and I was like, there
was this pair of clip onearrings that I.
Had hidden in my desk drawer,and I would wear them to do my
homework.
And, my mother must have beencleaning, and she found them in
the desk drawer one day, andthen they were gone, and I never
saw them again.
Funny story, cleaning herapartment after she died, guess
(08:19):
what I found?
Oh, you found them, wow.
And I just, I was in theapartment by myself, and I just
cackled and was like, I got themback! Yeah.
So it's.
Knowing that there was thislittle boy who before really
understanding because I believethat my addiction began before I
(08:42):
ever picked up a drink, before Iever picked up a drug, right?
It was the hiding.
It was the shame.
It was the make believe.
It was the fantasy.
All of those pieces reallystarted to fall into place after
I was told you can't be this.
Yep.
So I had this epiphany when Ileft Catholic education.
(09:04):
I was watching an episode ofwe're here on HBO and then we're
in Florida and it was the oldguy whose mother still thought
ah, she just had a friend.
I was 60 something years old andhe's still afraid to live his
truth.
And I was like, Whoa, holy shit.
(09:25):
And I realized that even aftercoming out after college, I was
still under my family, to acertain extent, where I wasn't
being fully myself.
Then I had this brief timebefore I began to drink
alcoholically, where I startedto connect with some gayness.
(09:48):
But then that immediately led todiscomfort, feeling
uncomfortable compare anddespair, being around all these
other gay men.
I wasn't used to it.
I didn't know how to do it.
I didn't know how to connect forsex in any other way than going
on a phone line and showing upat someone's apartment and
having sex.
I didn't communicate and how tomeet people.
(10:10):
And so I just drank myself tooblivion.
So like when that piecehappened, and then I went from
that into drug addiction.
And then I went from that into Ihad this very brief glimmer
where I was a teacher in aCatholic school, and I worked
for these 2 amazing nuns whodidn't give a shit.
(10:31):
They were like, they kneweverything about my life and
they loved me more for itbecause of that.
So I had this brief glimmer.
I still was a little bit carefulbecause families didn't know
kids didn't know.
So there was still an element ofcloseted ness to it.
Into becoming a Catholic schoolprincipal where within my first
like week, someone told me thatthis woman had seen my Facebook
(10:54):
and was trying to tell peoplethat I was gay and get me fired.
Right?
Which immediately was like wallwent up.
My niece and I immediately werelike, how do we shut it down.
And I became unsearchable and Iloved my job.
I really fucking loved my job.
I was really good at it, too.
So I made this, again, sacrificeto not fully be.
(11:19):
I wasn't fooling anybody, let'sbe honest.
But it was just I think what itbecame was people liked me so
much that it was like, this isthe unspoken, we don't talk
about this.
For his protection.
Steve (11:35):
Yeah, I feel like that's why I strive to be like, and so
many of gay boys, I have thatgood old boy syndrome, we try
and be as perfect as we possiblycan and every other thing in our
life, because it was make anexcuse for the one thing that
everyone knows, but they won'tlook if they see the other.
Mark (11:49):
But anytime I had to discipline a child, have an
argument with a parentdiscipline, an employee.
Somewhere in the back of my headfor three days after that thing,
it would always be like, is thisthe person who's going to try to
get me fast forward into COVID?
Spent a lot of time by myself,it really became the topic of
(12:13):
therapy.
Authentically being all of meand not being like, you're
allowed to know this, but you'renot allowed to know that.
And this and that, andunderstanding that like this
career paths got to changebecause it's holding me back
from being this authentic selfthat I've done all of this work
in sobriety on all of this workin therapy on, and I knew it
(12:38):
was, The day it was numbered,like it was got, it had to
change.
And then as I go back, likeparents are getting younger and
cooler and wanting to be like,Hey, let's fix you up with one
of my friends.
And I'm like, we're not havingthis conversation here.
Yeah.
You know that I can still befired for this.
And they'd be like that'sridiculous.
(12:58):
And the more I had to go, yeah,you're right.
The more it was like, okay, gotit.
Got to move.
Yeah.
Okay.
So now I'm out, I'm out of theplace.
Everybody knows nobody wassurprised, et cetera, et cetera.
But then I had that aha ofthrough all of that, I'd say I
connected with my gayness, butnever really with my queerness.
(13:23):
And there's a very subtledifference there, right?
Gay sex, no problem.
Gay bars, no problem.
But fully participating inexpressing myself exactly how I
want to.
Yeah.
However I want to.
Whether it was piercing my earsat 53, or wearing a fucking Tom
(13:46):
of Finland shirt, right?
Or, painting my nails, The firsttime I did it, I was so nervous.
I was like, Oh, what are peoplegoing to say?
Yeah.
Hey, I'm wearing a skirt, whichis like fashionable.
Also, comfortable, lots of malemodels and famous male stars who
(14:08):
are not gay wear skirts now.
But like in my head there I hadthat battle with Really trying
to unpack and discard like oldideas that were set upon me that
had become inner monologues of,it's not okay for you to do
(14:30):
that, right?
It's not okay.
So it's interesting also to havethis discovery in your 50s
because people are like.
What's going on with you?
What are you doing suddenly?
And for the most part in my gaycommunity, especially in my
(14:51):
recovery community, you're on myInstagram, you see the outfits I
put together, right?
I'm not afraid to put on a highheel.
Steve (14:59):
We all get it though, because we're all sober and
we're all growing like crazy.
Mark (15:04):
I have a ginormous brooch collection, which I, to this
day, it is my way of honoringthat little boy who wanted to
wear those fucking earrings todo his homework.
Steve (15:14):
Yeah, and the brooches get bigger, yeah, as the event
gets bigger.
Mark (15:18):
Love it.
Just not being afraid to just dothings that make me feel happy
and gay and queer.
And also like just being able toconnect to the issues in our
community, right?
Speak up, speak out, try tovolunteer and show up and help
(15:41):
organizations, so that the worldis fucked, especially this
country in 2 weeks, right?
It's like, how do I show up formy community as a gay sober
male, right?
I didn't have the luxury until Iwas much later in my 20s.
(16:02):
Of having gay role models.
Steve (16:05):
Yeah, I was so honored like last year when the place
that I volunteer also youth,it's like for youth that are
queer in our community ages, Ithink eight through 18 or like
12 through 18 or something likethat.
But they do after schoolprograms and things like that.
And they had me speak to talkabout what it's like doing your
own business type of thing aslike an entrepreneur, as someone
who's out and gay in Florida orSarasota.
So it was just interestinghaving like them hope.
(16:27):
And like I mentioned my surpriseand they're Oh because it's
cool.
Cause they're like, Oh, myuncle's like sober.
Cause it's cool.
And I guess now some of theirfriends, that can drink, that
are in their twenties identifyas sober, but they weren't
alcoholics who blew up theirlife.
They just didn't like the timethat they won drank that one
time.
And they were like, stopped.
I'm like, that's awesome though.
That's socially acceptable andcool now.
I remember when I was younger,it was like, If you were 21, I
(16:48):
expected that you would bedrinking and everybody throwing
drinks at you.
And with a lot of these kidsnow, it's okay if you say no or
that you're not interested.
And there's not, that's doesn'tseem to be that same type of
peer pressure.
Or expectation.
Mark (16:59):
Yeah.
And it, look, I still have timeswhere I worry about safety,
right?
We all do, walking to and fromthe train here in Jersey City to
get into Manhattan, in anoutfit.
Sometimes people are like, yes,and sometimes people are like,
what the fuck are you doinghere?
Steve (17:21):
bright blue hair.
I get it where I get cheered onby most people or I'll get the
looks and I'm just like, yeah,we'll try and mess with me at
this point.
But that depends on how I'mfeeling that day.
Cause if I'm feeling insecure,then I'll be thinking about that
look that one person gave me forthe next hour and a half.
But if I'm in a good head space,I can just know that's not about
me.
That's about them.
It's just really depends on meat that point.
Mark (17:41):
Yeah.
And honestly, I'm trying not tobe that compartmentalizer
anymore.
It isn't always easy, right?
Because I still work with kids,right?
So as much as I'm out at work,kids don't even ask.
Like I have one kid that I'mvery close to and we had a pride
(18:03):
celebration, so I had on aRainbow T-shirt and one of the
kids at the table was like, soare you gay?
And I looked at him and waslike, what do you care?
And the kid who's my buddy atthe table was like, and I texted
his mom and was like, did heever ask you?
And she's no, he never asked.
So I'm not saying anything.
(18:23):
Yeah.
And to see fifth, sixth andseventh graders experimenting
with their, am I a they?
Am I a them?
Am I queer?
Am I not queer?
Am I bisexual?
Am I going to kiss a girl?
Am I going to kiss a boy?
It's good for you.
Yeah, the change of.
Steve (18:40):
Work I'm sure helped with a lot of this, but like what
else socially changed were someof your aha moments where you
would say you went from beingmore gay to being part of the
queer community?
Mark (18:52):
Amazingly enough, like that realization of watching
that episode, right?
So like having representation,right?
Like it's so important for menow to watch queer TV, queer
movies, read queer literature,right?
To just, Continue to seeexamples, right?
Of people living theirauthentic.
(19:13):
My best friend is Frankie.
Frankie, you can't escapequeerness when you're hanging
out with that one.
And that's a motivator, right?
Like I, I just like sobriety,right?
Where your tribe, your truetribe becomes people who
sobriety you admire.
It's a very similar vibe for me.
(19:36):
People who are being authentic,people who are authentically
themselves and in theirqueerness are inspiring to me
and push me.
To do more and take more risksand push more boundaries for
myself within a comfort zone,and it's sometimes still
(19:56):
uncomfortable.
Steve (19:59):
Yeah, but I think that's part of it.
At least I was reflecting backanything good that happened to
me last year.
I was scared beforehand and Iwas uncomfortable beforehand,
but I did it anyway and it wasawesome.
Mark (20:08):
Yeah.
In that bedroom back there, whenI'm putting the outfit on, I
will second guess.
I will be like, am I reallygoing to walk to the train?
Do I have a bigger coat?
Should I drive instead?
Like I'll go through all ofthat.
Cuckoo bananas shit in my headand then at the end of the day
be like fuck it.
This is what I want to do.
I think I look amazing rightnow, right?
(20:30):
I'm going to a queer space.
Steve (20:34):
Yeah, I think that it's so important to share that
because a lot of times peoplesee what we post Because both of
us were cover out loud But we'realso ourselves out loud on
social media and they see youout with the brooches and
looking fabulous And they seelike me doing my like things
online and they think oh wowThis person's so brave because
they must have no fear and theydon't know what, like the back
(20:56):
story is like when you're inyour room, having those concerns
and having those fears.
So I think like being able toshare it's not a matter of that
people who are living theirtruth, aren't afraid of living
their truth is that we've justlearned that we just have to do
it anyway, because that freeingfeeling is worth it.
Mark (21:11):
Correct, right?
I'm 19 years away from a drinkor a drug.
But I live with this thing everyday.
Oh, yeah.
And I think one of the biggestaha moments for me in all of my
step work was realizing that andI don't know if I've ever told
this story before, but readingthe more about alcoholism
chapter, like our whole lives,we wish you could drink like
(21:34):
normal people, our entiredrinking careers, we were this,
we were that.
And my sponsor at the time waslike, hold on, I want you to
reread that paragraph.
And I want you to changewherever it says drink to
thinking, think, and wherever itsays drinking to thinking.
Yeah.
And I was like, Oh, all of asudden, I wish I could think
like a normal person.
Steve (21:54):
At least like once a day, like one of my sober friends,
I'm like, I had this thought tothis situation.
And thanks to sobriety, I knowthis thought is batshit crazy
balls to the walls.
Why would that be my gutreaction?
Yeah, I'm like, thank God.
I know now I can think itthrough and then text you and
laugh about it rather thanacting and thinking I was being
normal.
Mark (22:14):
Yeah, this exact same sponsor.
I would be like, listen, I'vebeen thinking and he'd go stop
right there because that's thefirst mistake.
So I still live with my own headand like sobriety, being my
authentic self, being myauthentic queer self.
Is a practice, right?
(22:35):
And pushing a boundary is apractice and it's a practice
that luckily I've learnedthrough sobriety, right?
I can take the principles thatI've learned in the 12 steps and
apply them to anything.
And.
If I've learned anything, it'sthat life is short, right.
In losing my mom this past year,really hit home to life is short
(23:01):
and I have to do whatever I haveto do.
Like she was the most acceptingperson in my life, which is why
her calling me a dirtymotherfucker was my breaking
point.
Even in talking about Advancingin Catholic education, even in
her later years were like herthinking wasn't always sharp.
(23:22):
I remember having thatconversation and her grabbing my
hand at the table and going, youcan never advance there because
you can't be you.
You need to go.
Yeah.
And knowing that, like thatwhole thing started with my
coming out was very weirdbecause I told my brother first
(23:43):
and he told my mother when hewasn't supposed to.
And she asked me and I dropped abowl of peas on the ground.
I was like I guess you got youranswer.
Yeah.
And she went through all thosephases of you're my son.
I don't care to I hate this andI hate you.
And then back.
And same happened with my dad.
It was a very weirdconversation.
He offered me 25, 000 to marry awoman.
(24:06):
Asked me if I'd ever had sexwith a, it was very strange.
Again, everything that was wrongwith me, he would tie back to
cause you're gay.
And then fast forward intosobriety and I'm driving their
car and we're going somewhere.
And he goes, I hope you can meeta nice rich guy one day.
(24:28):
And I was like, I've arrived.
Steve (24:29):
Yeah, there you go.
That's what we all want,
Mark (24:32):
And like knowing that at that point, the pressure valve
from family was released.
I still lost time because ofother choices I was making
career wise.
And now I feel like there's noway I am going to be sacrificing
(24:53):
any more of my time for anybody.
Steve (24:57):
I love that.
And I think that is a greatplace to end it for now, but
we'll have you back on realsoon.
If people wanted to connect withyou and follow all your fabulous
fierce adventures online, howwould they do that?
Mark (25:09):
It's HeyMarco, H E Y M A R K O and the number eight, cause
I'm the eighth child in myfamily.
Steve (25:17):
Excellent.
Sounds good.
Yeah.
I will link over to all that inthe show notes.
So thank you listeners fortuning into another episode of
and we'll see you next week.
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