SPILL THE TEA on Conversations with Alison Wood Brooks (Talk)

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome to GA'sReading.
I'm your host, Blitman, andtoday's episode of Spill the
Tea, we are spilling the tea onthe art of conversations with
Alison Wood Brooks, who is abehavioral scientist and
professor at Harvard BusinessSchool, recently wrote a book
called Talk.
Because this is an episode aboutconversations I wanted to edit

(00:22):
as little as possible.
So you had the most, uh,transparent experience, I guess
you would say, uh, on the art ofthis conversation.
And I dive in, in the middle ofthe beginning of my conversation
with Allison.
Usually I would've started theepisode later, but I wanted to
give you a little bit of contextfor, how we get into the rest of

(00:45):
the conversation.
So what happened is I was in aninterview with an author that
was going over and thenimmediately needed to jump right
into conversation with Allison,which is why I was a little
frazzled at the beginning.
But that is all a part of this.
As always, if you like whatyou're hearing, follow us on
social media.
Like and subscribe wherever youget your podcasts.

(01:07):
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There is so much content that isfree.

(01:28):
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(01:51):
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Alright, all of that said,please enjoy this episode of
Spill the Tea on Conversationswith Allison Wood Brooks.

Jason Blitman (02:14):
I know.
Well, anyway, so it was just sofunny.
I was like, oh, and

Alison Wood Brooks (02:18):
Did you recommend my book?
Were you like also love talkingto you?
I have an idea.

I honestly like took me, so I had, I was like,
he's one of my favorite authors.
He's a huge

Oh.

I couldn't believe I got him in the first
place.
I couldn't believe I got him foran hour, and then I was like.

And you got him to open up and you got him
to fall in love.
You're amazed.
This is, was that, did thathappen today?

Allison.
That's why I'm frantic rightnow.

Oh my God.
Can we just have like a moment,a let's do this together.
A zen moment of peace to say alittle prayer to the whatever
Gods we wanna pray to.
Because you did it.
You did.
Like that is such an achievementin all the ways

I, I literally gave myself a 30 minute buffer
between him and you, and I waslike, I, she's gonna beat me to
the video because I have to gofill up my water

you are.
Like, I need to pat down thesweat from my

literally, oh my, I

Alison Wood Br (03:18):
congratulations.

start my conversation with you.

Listen, we could just celebrate the, that
experience for like an hour.
I'm serious.
That sounds so fun.
I want like, I want the fullpostmortem.
That's what our interview couldbe.
It's like the after actionreview.
We analyze your conversationwith this other author.

Well, it's funny that you say that.
Um, first of all, hi, I amJason.
It's so nice to

Hi Jason.
I'm such a fan.
Thank you for inviting me.

up.
What are you talking about?

You know what?
You know why I'm a fan?
'cause you're a great freakingconversationalist and it's fun
to listen to.
And congratulations.
You're awesome.

you.
I appreciate that.
Well, I heard you on ArmchairExpert and I became such a fan
and I was like, I gotta have onKay's reading.

Oh, thank you.

we are mutually here for each other.
Um, in fact, it was, inspired anew series that I'm doing

Tell me everything.

my husband and my therapist are mad at me if I
just like have more interviews,quote unquote unnecessarily.

Yeah,

I started a new series called Spill the Tea,

love it.

today we are spilling the tea on
conversations.

I love it.
How is Spill the Tea differentthan other things?

this, this is, this conversation is not quote
unquote about the book

Amazing.
It's my favorite.
Yeah.
Yeah.

about the book.
Um, so like my last one thatjust released like a week ago
was with Elder Ator, who is theVP and publisher of Penguin
Classics.

Wow.
Cool,

about what makes a classic, a classic.

cool.

So like that was, we were spilling the tea on
Penguin classics.
Anyway,

it.
I love it.

Allison Wood Brooks, I am very overwhelmed.
You are, you are a professor atHBS.

Fancy.

way the kids say it,

Yes.

it's like I go to school in Cambridge.
Okay, yeah.
We know

Do they call it dropping the hbo?
It's like, am are you gonna dropthe HBO or not?
Ooh.

to anyone who's not using the context blues.
It's Harvard.

Harvard.

teaches at Harvard.

I know, I know.

a smr.

I know.
If I went back to my like highschool self and like you told
me, I would end up not only likegoing to Harvard but teaching,
being a professor at Harvard, Iwould've been like, no.
Why?
What?
Huh?
It's crazy.

What am I gonna teach?

Yeah.

would be my first question, I

What crazy.
What collection of crazy peoplemade the that decision to hire
me?

Um, well, Allison, you wrote a book and
teach, uh, the book is calledTalk, the Science of
Conversation and the Art ofBeing Ourselves.
and the class is called Talk.
Something about Talking Gooder,

the students, I'll call it talk now.
It's just like the acronym hasprevailed, but when I first
started teaching it, it wascalled and, and still, I guess
officially in the coursecatalog.
It's called How to Talk Gooderin Business and Life

And life.
Yes.

Emphasis On Life.

right.
It's none of my business.
It's just life.
have such an important questionto ask you.

Okay.

Do we have any updates on scientists research
on whether or not tickle me,Elmo has feelings?

Did that part make you laugh?

It did.

Isn't it so funny?
I, I feel like this is aquestion that is unknowable.
Right?

that's depressing?

There are so many questions.
he must.
he must.
By having my own children, I dofeel like I learned so much
about Elmo that he's supposed tobe a particular age.
Did you know that almost must tobe like three years old and he
has got, he's like got a quitea, like a backstory.
Um,

that's the, then they like tailor the development
and the behaviors to, it's hisaudience

yes.
I do think tickle me Elmo is agenius invention.
The fact that you could sort oftake the power that by the way
we are all susceptible whenwe're listening to a laugh track
on a sip sitcom and translate itfor children is just incredible.
But it also, it just speaks tothis like crazy power of laugh.
The contagious power oflaughter.

(07:56):
Right?
It's just so nice to be around.

it's true.
I, except when, when it's not

Except when it's, yeah, except when it's
not.
Except when it's at your, uh uh,you know, like on you targeted
at you.
Yeah.
Like you're the one beingexcluded or punched down to, or
you don't understand what peopleare laughing about.
Yeah.
No.

So people who are listening are like, what are we
doing?
Why are you talking about Elmo?
This is spill the tea on the artof conversations.
What are you talking about?
I, know, I'm, maybe I was not avery good student in high
school, or frankly in college.

(08:44):
I have a degree in theater.
What does that even mean?
so I think I'm making up forlost time and I'm like, I wanna
be a good student.
And when I talk to a Harvardprofessor, I need to like,

Do you feel like you need to impress me or
get my approval or like engagein a meaningful way?
Like what is the pressure thatyou feel?

this is a good question.
Obviously you are, you askquestions for a living, but I
think, I think it's about.
proving that I did the work,

Yes,

that I'm paying attention,

yes,

um, because this is, it all comes back to Elmo

always does.

you'll, you'll understand the art of
conversation and Allison's, uh,methodology momentarily.
Um, but my goal with asking thequestion, do we have any updates
on scientists, research onwhether or not tickle me Elmo
has feelings to use all of thetalk maxims in one question.

Oh my God.
Oh, I'm so, I'm so moved.
And I You did it.
You did.
And you did.
Not only did you use all thetalk maxims, you used multiple
bits from each of the maxims.
I think.
Um, do you want me to do ananalysis of that question and
tell you how I see

want you to gimme an a.

a plus plus.
Plus plus?

Oh my God.
Harvard professor, a plus plusplus at Harvard gonna call my
mom.

Alison Wood Br (10:17):
Congratulations.

Um, so can we talk about that?
Can we unpack what that means?

Yeah.

um, tell me.
You, you can ana analysis,analyze as much as you want.

Well, you know what's interesting about
this question in particular, Ilove that you tried to like pack
all of the maxims into onething.
And it's no surprise that tolisteners it would feel
confusing because I think whenyou use the maxims well topics
asking levity kindness, italmost necessitates that you

(10:53):
are, um, listening so intentlyto another person, not only in
the moment while you're talkingto them, but over the long term,
across your whole relationshipthat when you get to a good
place in the conversation, italmost should be hard for
outsiders to understand whatyou're talking about because you
have such a tight-knit sharedreality and you've found your

(11:17):
way to a place that is so uniquethat maybe only the two of you
could understand or talk aboutin a spec specific way.
That to explain what it is tooutsiders, eavesdropping in
takes a good bit of work to givethem context.

was designed to be a good question for you and

Yeah,

conversation.
It was

and maybe any, maybe someone else who's
read the book right?
Or may I actually.

Con, who has context.

Who has context.
Actually, I've never talkedabout that example in my class.
So like even the students whohave taken talk at Harvard
wouldn't really know what we aretalking about.
And everybody's gonna start likesearching for clues of like,
what's going on here?
Um, okay, more analysis of, ofthis, uh, the topic that you
chose is in pursuit of your goalto show me that you've really

(12:08):
prepared.
So not only did you read thebook, but this is like a very
specific, not huge part of thetakeaways from the book.
It was sort of mentionedcasually in passing in one
sentence in, in the middle ofthe book, right?
So this is all in pursuit ofyour goal to signal to me like,
look, professor I like reallydid.

(12:29):
I didn't just.
Skim.
I like really did the work.
Um, so that's, that's amazing.
That's what you should be doing.
You should be choosing topicsthat are very squarely in
pursuit of your goals.
Um, even better, they should besquarely in pursuit of your
partner's goals and which you, Ithink of intuited, like, she's
gonna love this.
She, she spent 15 fricking yearswriting this book so that

(12:53):
someday hopefully someone wouldbe able to make this weird joke
about this thing buried in themiddle of the book.
Like, that's the nicestcompliment, best affirmation
that anyone could give.
So.
You So it nails the topics inpursuit of specific goals.
Um, it is a question until youwere asking a question.

(13:13):
So already you've got the a forasking it is pulled from the
levity chapter.
It's about laughter in thiscontext of tickle me Elmo.
It's also so, um, unexpected andso sort of off the wall that it,
that's another form of levity islike the element of surprise,
right?
And like switching it up likeout of nowhere tickle me Elmo.

(13:35):
Um, so it's just perfect levity,uh, and then kindness.
It's perfect example oflong-term listening that we talk
about with, with kindness,right?
You went to the trouble of, youwatched me on another podcast.
You thought about what we weretalking about.
You felt in inspired enough.

(13:57):
To invite me on your podcast,read my book.
You not, didn't just skim it.
You read the book.
You thought about the ideas inthe book, and then you were
thoughtful enough to preparethis topic, bring it to our
conversation and say, look, I'mnot just listening to you now.
I've been listening to you andyour ideas now for at least a

(14:19):
month and maybe more.
And like, God, what could bemore kind than that?
It's amazing.
Thank you.

it, uh, my pleasure.
I, I, the goal was obviously,yes, all of those things, but
also Initially was gonna ask youif you could teleport anywhere,
where would you go?

Oh, I love that one.

which two of the listeners is a question that
Allison poses in the book as agreat, uh, like topic question
to ask someone when you're sortof looking for something to

Yeah.
Reaching for things.
Yeah.

Um, but then I was like, oh, it would be more
fun to sort of start a, at asort of high ridiculous level
and then be able to unpack theart of conversation from there
and sort of where that comesfrom.
Um,

Can I make a comment real quick that it's
occurring to me?
I, I think it shows somethingsort of profound that Just one
question.
That is one question.
So if you looked at thetranscript of our conversation
so far, that moment where youwere like, do we have better,
you know, scientific evidenceabout whether cake kemo is real?
Um, that's one turn out of likeprobably already a hundred.

(15:33):
And the fact that we could do afull talk analysis and that,
like you thought so much aboutthat one turn and I've now
already thought so much aboutthat one turn.
I think really shows, um, thecomplexity and the sort of depth
that is actually under the hoodwhen you're having a
conversation with somebody, eventhough it looks simple, like,

(15:53):
oh, you say a thing, and then Isay a thing and we take turns
lying beneath every turn is thislevel of complexity and nuance.
And I think that's not obviousto, to all of us.

Yeah.
Well, and to be clear, you,you're really not talking about
me.
I mean, you might be talkingabout me, but I, but we're
really talking about.
Everyone,

Yeah.

of conversation in general.
There

Yeah.

much, to unpack, to uncover.
Um, I've noticed you're takingnotes.
I take notes when I am inconversation with somebody.

Why do you take notes?

um, I'm laughing because I am, I'm very conscious
of your methodology and I am, Iam trying to be hyper aware to
when you are or not using it onme.
Um,

A lot of people say, they're like, I'm
nervous to talk to you.
I'm like, no, I think you shouldbe like the least nervous to
talk to of all people in theworld.
I have like such a depth ofunderstanding about how hard
this thing is that we're doingand how, how blazingly imperfect
it is and how many mistakes andweird things we're gonna do
while we're talking to eachother.
But I do know that it makes, Iknow, I know the hypervigilance

(17:09):
that comes, that comes from it.

I mean, okay.
Like literally behind, under thehood literally is, uh, I told
you that I just got off a, uh,an interview with one of my
favorite

I know

believe he was on the show.
Um, and yet last night, I saidto my husband, I am so excited
to talk to Allison.
I'm more excited to talk toAllison because this, this is
sort of like my bread and butterthese days.
Your

it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't Michael
Lewis was it?

no.

He, I mean, he's a great conversation.
He's a very good friend of mine,and he, anyway, I was gonna, I
was ready to GI was ready togloat publicly, uh, that you
were looking forward to myconversation more than Michael's

I don't know who Michael is.
No,

used.
You do you know Michael Lewis?
Like a Moneyball?
The big short, um, all, youknow, so many, uh, the Undoing
Project.
Okay.
You're gonna have to,

things I haven't seen.

okay.

Um, I referenced Tickle Me Elmo, like I am.
Moneyball is not on my radarright now.
You ask why I write things, whyI take notes.

Yes.

if you say something that I'm curious to
follow up about or if you saysomething that makes me think of
something else, I'll write itdown.
It's not interrupt you.
if it's not an appropriate timeto interrupt, because as I learn
from the book, interrupting isnot always a bad thing.
something I want to note in theshow notes of the episode.
So I take notes about all sortsof things.

I think it's such a benefit.
It's maybe the only benefit forme of talking on Zoom is that
you can take notes a little bitmore slyly than you can in
person.
And so I, and I think you'relike me, where you have the
velocity with which ideas enteryour mind while you're talking
to someone is quick, reallyfast.
And so you don't, and you knowyou don't wanna interrupt, but
you also don't wanna forget ifthose ideas are valuable.

(18:55):
And so just like scratching itdown while you're talking to
someone, keeps you frominterrupting them and also helps
you not remember it or, orforget it later.

100%.

Yeah.

the benefit of this is that I have you on one
side of my screen and I have mynotes on the other side of my
screen.

Yes,

in terms of what I wanna talk to you about, and
something that comes up a lot inthe book is about the, the, uh,
idea of preparing for aconversation

indeed.

and as she write, as she takes a note, I, you, you
say that, that the idea ofprepping for a conversation is,
uh, sounds silly to someone.
Why is that important to you, orwhy do you think that's

(19:43):
important?

It's funny, I wouldn't even use the word
silly.
I, I think it's aversive topeople.
So we've actually surveyedpeople.
I was surprised.
I think I'm a sort of habitualtopic prepper.
Um.
I like thinking about peoplewhen we're apart.
It makes me feel less anxiousonce you get together, that you
have these sort of backupoptions of where, like the

(20:04):
question of like, if you couldtele, if you could teleport
anywhere, where would you go?
That's a, like a weird question.
You wouldn't just ask it.
But if things get awkward, it'snice to know that you've got
like a backup plan of a thing toask that will make things
interesting again.
Um, and so I was sort ofsurprised when I realized in the
world that not everybody isdoing that.

(20:25):
Not everybody is thinking aheadabout stuff that they could talk
about.
I think a good number are, butmost people don't very much.
And even more so that the peoplewho don't almost feel like it's
a bad idea, um, because theythink the conver it will make
the conversation feel rigid orscripted.
Um, or they'll feel distracted,like, oh, I gotta get to my list

(20:47):
of things.
What we call it, what I call itin the book, is this myth of
naturalness where everybody'swalking through life feeling
like their conversations shouldbe, they want'em to be smooth
and fun and exciting, and theysee other people having
conversations that seem smoothand fun and exciting.
And when they watch otherpeople, you can't tell like the

(21:08):
feet under the water how fastthey're paddling.
Um, and so it looks easy andeffortless.
And so then we kind of feellike, well, to make my
conversations easy, like smooth,it should be easy.
Like it does, it shouldn't beeffortful.
And, and part of that is itshould occur to me
spontaneously, like as we'retalking all of these I, the

(21:30):
things to talk about and how totalk about them and what I'm
comfortable disclosing and whatI think my partner's comfortable
disclosing, that's all justgonna be obvious to me in the
moment.
And so I understand those fears,like I get why people would feel
that way.
But then when you study peopleand you randomly assign them to
either prepare topics or not,and then you study how the

(21:52):
conversations go at very largescale, the people who have
thought ahead have way betterconversations.
And I don't need to say this tolike a podcast or that's your
whole life.
You, you wouldn't really dreamof going into a podcast
conversation having not read thebook or not prepared topics
unless that was the shtick, theshtick that everybody was in on.
Um, so when you compare thesetwo groups, the people who have

(22:14):
prepared even for 30 secondshave conversations that are less
anxiety ridden.
They're more fluid, there's lessstuttering, there's fewer
awkward pauses.
You end up talking about moretopics and more interesting
topics that are engaging toeverybody involved.
Um, it's just like every, and,and the most important thing is

(22:37):
it's just more enjoyable, right?
Like it's, it actually doesn'tmake it feel more scripted.
The beauty of it is if you'veprepped topics, you don't
actually have to bring them up.
Like you just have them in yourback pocket for if there's a
moment when it feels right toraise it.
Um, so I understand people'sfears about it, but I think we
gotta blast through them andprep more topics.

of blasting through them, we of dove in
headfirst.
I asked you a question.
We unpacked talk maxims, but wedidn't.
No one has any idea who you areor why you're the person who's
telling us about, uh, the art ofconversations.
Um,

We whispered Harvard.

Harvard professor at Harvard.
Um, so you teach this classtalk, you know, the, and.
Something that comes up is aboutthe science of conversation.
Um, every once in a while in thebook, you'll say something about
what the science says.
Uh, I say in quotation marks toa professor.

(23:39):
That's, you know, I don't, I

How dare you?

I don't mean to, to reduce anything, but I'm, I'm
literally quoting the book.
It's Science says, what does thescience say?
What, what are some nuggets thatare, uh, important for us as
sort of of the world tounderstand about the art of
conversation per science?

I can tell you, I, I, I, you know what's so
funny?
When I was writing this book,I'm keenly aware that like
nonfiction on average is not funto read.
I cared so much.
This is my first book.
And so like, I cared so muchabout trying to make the reading
experience fun and exciting andpleasurable and alluring, and
also toggling over to wearingthis other hat that I wear in my

(24:24):
life, which is a behavioralscientist.
And, um, not just like togglingthere and being like, by the
way, but also like I am athought leader on this new
emerging way of doing behavioralscience that.
Most people outside of mybehavioral science community
would not even really realize ishappening.

(24:45):
Um, and so I hope that I, my, myhope that I got that balance
right in the book.
Um, but it was a very funchallenge.
And I think in my life, togglingbetween those identities is not,
uh, particularly easy.
I'm a very silly person, but Itake my work seriously.
Um, and so like wearing thosedifferent hats, uh, is a, is a

(25:06):
fun challenge and juggle.
Um, so the science ofconversation, what I have found,
so I think it's possible that Iwould've left the profession
earlier had we not stumbled,stumbled on a new way of doing
it.
And so let me tell you why thiswas so exciting.
Um, they, for decades anddecades, people have studied

(25:30):
what seemed like interaction andconversation by looking at like.
Pretend scenarios, they would belike, imagine that these two
people are talking and they talkabout this.
What do you think?
Or they would have you focus onlike one turn, right?
So maybe we say like, okay,imagine this whole conversation
and at the end this guyapologizes and in this other

(25:53):
scenario he doesn't apologize.
What do you think about thosetwo scenarios?
And that's, and then we aregonna make claims about like,
well this is what apologies do.
So this is like decades anddecades of work.
And I realized, oh my god,there's like whole fields of
communication and uh,negotiation and social
psychology.

(26:13):
And very few people had actuallygone to the trouble of recording
real conversations between realpeople.
And analyzing them.
Now there's like another sort ofgroup of people who had sort of
been doing that like, likeeavesdropping on real
conversations in the wild.
It's called conversationanalysis.
But they would do like one ortwo conversations at a time.

(26:37):
And as a sort of behavioralscientist, I'm like, oh, we need
like thousands, we need at leasthundreds if not thousands of
real conversations.
And so that's the new sciencethat has emerged.
It's like we have tools nowwhere we can actually record
hundreds if not thousands ofconversations at once.
We also have new tools from thisdigital age, like natural

(26:57):
language processing and machinelearning where we can go into
these large transcript data setsand actually analyze and figure
out what's going on with a lit,with like a lot more precision
and pattern recognition than wecould before.

When you say analyze and figure out what's
been going on, is there, isthere a sort of high level
takeaway?

Yes.
So I, I feel like I, there whatyou start to realize is exactly
what we were saying earlier,which is like, you look under
the hood and there's like a lotof complexity.
There's a lot going on.
And so how can we wrap our armsaround that?
How can we figure out smalllittle tricks and life hacks
that will help the most peoplein the most situations do a

(27:43):
little bit better?
And so that's when we, we kindalook at conversations and we
say, Hey, it seems like peoplewho are asking a lot of
questions are getting moresecond dates.
They're negotiating moreeffectively.
They're ascending to leadershippositions, people like them
more.
That seems to be a correlation.
So like asking more questionsand good things.

(28:06):
What if we run an experimentswhere we tell half the people,
ask more questions and thenlike, don't mess with the other
people.
That's where it gets reallypowerful is when you do
experiments and you figure outthese little hacks that are
actually feasible, like youcould imagine going into a
conversation.
And your only goal is like, askmore questions than I normally
would.

(28:26):
People can do that and when theydo, their conversations go
better in almost every way.
And so that's, that's, those arethe talk maxims.
We're working through these sortof life hacks.
Prepare topics, switch topicsmore frequently.
Ask more questions, ask morefollow up questions, laugh more.
Um, don't be afraid to switchtopics.
Uh, you know, like all give morecompliments.

(28:48):
Make sure you say thank you,affirm people, validate them,
their feelings before youdisagree with them.
It's sort of all these littlerules that taken together are
gonna make you so much better atconversation.

you saying taking together, because the talk
maxims, which you, you rattledthrough a bit at the beginning,
unpacking.
My first question are, it's,it's an acronym for talk,
topics, ask or ask questions,uh, levity and kindness.
Um, I, I appreciate that that isnot an order of operations.

Correct.

come into the conversation with any, starting
with any letter that is helpfulfor you.

That's right.
At the end of my semester, mystudents are like, should I just
like once a week, like work onone of the maxims or like per
day I'm gonna pick a thing andI'm gonna work on it that day.
So there's like, um, so manydifferent ways that you can, can
workshop it, but you certainlydon't need to do it in order.
Um, and they are right.

(29:54):
Yeah, exactly.
And they're all mutuallyreinforcing, right.
If you're aiming to be a betterlistener, you're, you're
probably a good way to do it isby asking more follow up
questions or aiming to ask morefollow up questions to, um, if
you're gonna, if you bring aspirit of play, it means you're
gonna talk about more fun andexciting topics.
Uh, right.
So they're all sort of Exactly.

(30:16):
And so that they're allinterdependent.
They're all like reinforcingeach other.

right.
So I am, I talk to a lot ofauthors.
My goal is always to talk tothem about things that they
haven't talked about yet

I love it.

because I could tell when it's rote,

Yeah.

tell when it's rehearsed.
I can tell like there are, thereare have been nuggets of our
conversation that.
Simply because of the nature ofyour work, it is how you
describe things,

Yeah.

right?
And

Yep.

that has become a part of you.

Yep.

curious if you have come across ways as a, for
a talker, whether, regardless ofwhich side you're on, to keep
things fresh.

Yeah,

If I ask the same question every single time,
that's not fresh for me.
If you answer the same way everysingle time, that's not fresh
for you.
How do you come to it?

there's so many.
I work with a lot of improv, um,people.
Actually, I have these amazingimprov guys come to my class.
Their name Anthony Vile andSammy Wit, um, they work, they
have a company called FreestyleLove Supreme, and it's, uh, well
the Broadway show was calledFreestyle Love, love, uh,
Supreme, that they wroteoriginally with Lin-Manuel
Miranda.
It's like the most amazing thingI've seen human beings do.

(31:39):
Um, they come to my class andrun my students through a bunch
of freestyle rap like improvexercises.
They make them beatbox, theymake them, it, it's just so,
it's really, really fun.
Um, and it's, I think improv is,and then my friend Kelly
Leonard, who runs Second City inChicago, like.
There.
So much of that work at improv,uh, is so aligned with the

(32:02):
spirit of talk, uh, right, andit's this question, it's sort of
like, well, there are things youcan do before the conversation
starts, like prep and thinkingahead and thinking about people.
But once you're in it, how doyou make it optimally fresh?
How do you unearth the mostinteresting things that are in
another person's mind?
Or not just interesting, butlike productive and efficient

(32:23):
and valuable and exciting.
Um, and I think for me, thething that's most helpful is
just the, is the value oflistening, right?
Like you could imagine workingyour way through a totally
planned, scripted set ofquestions, but you can't just do
that.
You actually need to listen totheir answers.
And as soon as they start, get,start to get going on that like

(32:45):
scripted bit that they're doingabout their book, you maybe
interrupt them and be like, waita second, pause.
You said this thing, I've never,like, I have so much curiosity.
Let's go in that direction,right?
We're co-creating this thing andas soon as you stumble on a new
piece of treasure that you'relike, I don't, not sure that
anyone else is unearthed thisyet.
You can go there.

(33:05):
Follow up questions are anincredible improvisational tool
and you can't possibly plan'em,right?
They're based on what yourpartner's saying.

Well, and it's interesting too because if, if
my goal in this conversation isto unpack the art of
conversations, you've, that'swhat you do.
So it is it.
I, don't wanna say I have itmore difficult.
I, we both have it difficult tomake, to keep it fresh for both
of

Yes, but you probably don't get a lot of
authors who ask you questionsback because it breaks the norm
of like what the expectation is.
My hypothesis is that it'sprobably satisfying for
listeners to have a guest whodoes.
That certainly is moresatisfying for you.
Um, but if I were to do that toomuch, if I started a spin, flip

(33:54):
it on its head and like only askyou questions, you would start
to panic.
'cause you're like, oh my God,I'm not doing what I'm supposed
to do here.
And the listeners would probablyget a little annoyed with me
too.
Like, she's not doing the thing.
And, and also I wouldn't besharing my expertise.
Right.
Like, that's why you're here.
That's why we're all here.

Well, it's funny that you say not sharing your
expertise because I lovelearning about people and I have
kept needing to remind myself.
This episode is supposed to bequote unquote educational.
We're supposed to learnsomething about a topic, less so

(34:33):
about you, but I am itching anditching, and itching to hear you
talk about basketball, um, or totell you that I was dancing
around my house listening to,uh, your band on Spotify this

Let's go, let's go.
You know what's so funny?
You know what's so funny?
I feel the same way in all, inall of these interviews about
the book.
I'm like, well, we could talkabout the book, or we could just
do conversation.
And that would not involve metalking about the book at all.
We would talk about basketball,we would talk about twins.
We'd talk about your theaterdegree.
We would talk about my band andlike, in a way, I, I, I

(35:07):
sometimes think that's actuallya better way of like teaching or
understanding the content of mybook Talk.
Okay.
Hit me with all of yourbasketball questions.
I have so many.
I have so many thoughts and exand expertise.

You were not always a basketball.
You, like

Oh no.
I was always a basketballplayer.

from basketball to something else.
What am I?
What am I?

I'm a basketball player through and
through.
I started in like fourth gradeand went through high school,
thought about playing incollege.
Had this amazing high schoolcareer with this lovely team.
We went to states every year andit's such a part of my identity.
I played with my twin sister.
Like, you don't wanna get caughtin a wood girl trap.
Okay.
That is a nightmare with verylong arms.

(35:53):
Um, love it so much.
And now my, just through likethe serendipity of the universe,
my work at Harvard and all onall this stuff of conversation
has brought me into working withprofessional sports teams a bit.
So I've worked a bit with theCeltics and it feels so like,
such a good fit because I havethis like deep passion for
basketball, so like in a sharedlanguage and a shared

(36:15):
understanding.
So, you know, I'm doing a littlebit of consulting there.
And then on my spare time I'mcoaching my kids' youth teams.
Like, it's just, it's the best,

It was from, from

the

to being the coach.

coach.

I knew there was some sort of transition there
and I'm

Can I tell you?
I think a lot of adults feelthis way, like ex-athletes feel
this way.
But like I, every time I'mcoaching or watching my kids
play, I'm like, put me in.
I am re I am not washed up.
I'm ready for game time.
Get me in there.

You, you, you almost went to, you almost
played in college, but

I almost, there's too, life is big.
Life is big.
I had other things to do.
I was also a, a musician.
I was a serious student.
I also really like having fun.
Like I really, really likehaving fun.

like my worst nightmare.
You're good at all the things.

Not good at it.
Just No.

go for all the things.

go for, I for sure go for all the things
and I, I know that that is um,can be a lot.

I, my mantra is leap and the net will come.
Uh, I need to keep remindingmyself of that because you, if
you don't go for things, thenyou then

Yeah,

you'll get them.

but then the, but the downside, I'm with
you.
I'm, I'm in the same boat.
But then the downside of it,the, the downside of it is that,
um, if you want too much andyou're trying to do too much, it
does, I think over time can leadto sort of, um, burnout for
sure.
But also, um, on one hand it'slike a well-rounded identity and

(37:56):
on the other it's sort of like,who am I?
Like,

to you?

yeah, sure.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, uh,

mean, well, you do all these things.
You

yeah.
So let me tell.
So yeah.
And I think that key to life isprobably having a rich and
diverse portfolio of likeactivities and people, and
there's research on this, right?
Like this is calledpsychological richness.
It's, um.
It's, you can have a happy andmeaningful life, but you also

(38:25):
need like diverse newexperiences to keep things
exciting.
And so if you're doing a lot ofdifferent things, if you play on
a basketball team and you playin a band and you also have
three kids and you do researchand you write a book, like you
do all the things, you're gonnahave a lot of psychological
richness in your life, butyou're also gonna be like very
tired and, and I think feelpulled, right?

(38:46):
Like the band is the thing thatbrings me the most like
consistent joy and it's such anamazing creative outlet and we
write music and it's just, youget lost in it immediately.
You know, we go, we have a bandbarn and we all go there.
We try once a week, usually morelike once every two weeks.
And as soon as we get there,you're just sort of lost in this

(39:09):
beautiful haze of music andcreation and with people you
really love and care about andare so talented.
Um, and I want that, right?
Like, I crave that in themoments when like, my job is
hard or like the kids are hardor, um, I don't know.
So it's constantly thinkingabout how do I balance my
portfolio in the optimal way, Ithink.

(39:31):
Do you feel that way?

I, the thing that hits me the most is not feeling
great at one thing.

Yes.
Yes.
And the opportunity cost ofknowing that you could be

Right?

I, I, yep.
Yep,

podcasting is essentially a glorified hobby.
If I, if I took away all theother things that I was doing
and that I was focusing on.
This could be making money.
This could

that's right.

I could market it.
I could be focusing time andenergy and effort to build it
and to grow it.
But that also means sacrificingthe other things that I'm

That's right.
Yep.

it is that opportunity cost.

Yes.
And the always wondering like,what if, what if I had taken a
different tree branch of mypossible lives?
Um, what if I had thrown more?
What if I invested more in thistask than another one?
Yeah.

wouldn't have the basketball or you wouldn't have
the band, or you

Yeah.

at Harvard or you wouldn't, right.
Like

Wouldn't have the kids.
I know the thing.
Do you, do you find yourselfsort of pining?
There are things that havefallen by the wayside completely
that I like pine for.
I loved painting when I was incollege and afterwards I still
sometimes do paintings as littlegifts for my friends.
Um, there, I, I danced veryseriously as a child and one of

(41:01):
my best friends now who's also aprofessor at Harvard is a
ballerina.
Was a ballerina.
And I thought, and my, I alwayslook at her, I'm like, God, it,
your life is so cool.
Like, I wonder if I had stuckwith dance if I could have also
gone to like a performing artshigh school and like had that be
a more significant part of youridentity.
But you never get to find out

I am, like my brain going a mile a minute
thinking, okay, how can Allisonincorporate dance into the art
of conversation?
Because dancing is aconversation,

it is.

or painting.
Can you multitask?
Can you be listening to an audiobook while you're painting or
watching TV at night whileyou're painting?
Right?
So I'm, I am, better or forworse.
That's how my brain functions.
And I'm like, no, Jason, stop.
You're doing too many things.

So listen, and this is the other thing for
people who also struggle withthe doing too many things, I
also find, and maybe you feellike, tell me if you feel the
same way.
I find the most profound sortof, I joy in doing an immersive
task where you can't possibly bemultitasking.
So I think about things likesnow skiing, water skiing, um,

(42:11):
playing basketball, sometimescooking, although no, I'm really
trying to multitask too much.
But these tasks, uh, sailing,um, things that are really
physical and like mentallyengaging where you can't
possibly be doing two or threethings at once.
Um, actually painting for me issort of like that.

(42:31):
You can't really be textingwhile you're in, like dumping
paint on a canvas.
I don't know.
I yearn for both.
It's like I know the efficiencyof doing lots of things at once,
but also I yearn for thatimmersive thing that focuses
your mind completely so that youcan't even possibly be toggling
to oth other tasks.

Yeah.
Well, and I guess it's lessabout toggling and more about
finding the right marriage.

Tapping the adjacent, have you heard this
phrase, tapping the adjacentpossible?

No, but I'm obsessed.

like when you do many things, so like
let's say you're doing lots ofdifferent things.
You start to see connect Iconnections between the ideas
and themes that other peopledon't see.
It's sort of a patternrecognition thing where you're
like, oh, I can tap the adjacentpossible between writing music
and cooking and teaching thisclass at Harvard in a way that

(43:29):
maybe no one else could.
Um, an idea about like what doesit mean to be creative?
What does it mean to collaborateeffectively?
Oh, I'm learning things from myband mates and from my husband
who's annoyed with me while I'mcooking, and also from my 180
students.
Um, and tapping the adjacentpossible is, feels really good.

is the title of your next book.

We'll see.

You're welcome.
Nope, that's

Thank you so much.
Credit, eat credit.

Um, I know.
Just a a, an acknowledgement ora dedication.
We could become friends and thenI'll get the dedication.

Okay, good.

we're a little too, uh, we're not quite friends
enough yet.

Hey, the first, the first conference.
It's the first step,

I know.
It is the first step.
Um, it's so funny'cause I wasin, in reading the book, I
realized how much I loved firstdates,

right?

speed dating,

I know.

all sorts of things where I just got to
engage with another person.

I know.

Um, I did a project for myself briefly, uh,
that I called friend of the dayand I had a goal of meeting a
new person every single day.

It's so nice.
Like a new, like a stranger,like a new, like making a new
friend.

I was living in New York City.

I'm so proud of you.
That sounds so fun and hard.

was so fun.
I did it for about a month and ahalf.
Uh, it was very hard.
And then I was at a bar, or I, Iwas like on my way to the subway
and walked into a bar justbefore the subway.
'cause I hadn't met someone yet.
And I sat at the bar and waschatting with the bartender and
told him about this project thatI was doing, and he said to me,
well, I'm not your friend.

(45:09):
We just met.
Like, that's not what a friendis.

You're like, what the fuck?

Well, no, it, it was, it was so, it was

Yeah.

realization

Yeah.
That's right.

like, you're right.

Yeah.

is not a friend.

Yeah.

a human.
And like I'm, that's a, it's afun

Which is also valuable.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Um,

But a friendship is a.

means.

A friendship.
Any relationship is a repeatedsequence of conversations over
pretty long periods of time.
But the first one is importantand like a lot of people are
missing out on the benefits thatyou can get even from that first
one, or even the benefits youget from interacting with
somebody that you're never gonnainteract with again.
Like there is, there is greatvalue in that, even if it

(45:53):
doesn't become an actual friend.

Absolutely.
And sometimes that's sad.

Mm-hmm.
I know.
Did you write about your, didyou write about these
encounters?
Did you write them down?

it.
Yeah.

It's really, I That must've have been so
funny.
Oh my gosh.

picture with each of them and I also, I, I had
little, little cards printedthat basically pointed the
person to the blog and gave theman email address.
I had aspirations of throwing aNew Year's party at the end of
the

With all the friends, all the quote unquote
friends.
Did you, I mean now thisactually could be a book, right?
Like this?

I am.
That was when I, before Istarted Gay's reading, that was
the idea was to meet a newperson once a week

Yeah.

sort of learn about them

And did any of them actually blossom into
real relationships?
Real friendships,

Um, none of them became real friendships, but a
few of them, uh, I had crossedpaths with

fun.

so that was very interesting.
Sort of just the, how do yousort of reconnect along the
journey that his life?

In the book, did you see the part that has
the closeness lines at the, the,the graph at the end?
It was, it's at the end.
If you didn't get to that part,I don't blame you.
It's a long, it's a book.
It's a long book.
But there are these, ima there'sthis image at the end, near the
end of the book called ClosenessLines by this illustrator named
Olivia de Racicot.
It was for the New Yorker,probably 10 years ago.

(47:24):
And it's literally just twolines.
And it, she tries to plot likehow close she feels to different
types of people.
And so like a one night stand isjust like an ex where you like
cross paths and then never seeeach other again.
Um, you think about yourrelationship with your mother or
your spouse or a friend or yourdog, and she's like, makes all
these closeness lines.
Yeah, they're so beautiful andthey were so popular when she

(47:48):
published them in, in The NewYorker.
But I think that's, it reallycaptures something profound
about relationships is that eachone has a unique sort of shape
to it.
But what is missing from theillustrations are the, are the
dots.
And this is where the sort ofmeta the last metaphor of the
book comes from, which is everyconversation is sort of like a
knot on those strings, on thosecloseness lines.

(48:11):
And imagine if.
It's sort of like cafe lightsand we can make each one of the
knots, each one of the lights,just like glow a little bit
brighter.
Your closeness lines are gonnaget closer and closer and sort
of be more meaningful over time.

I will say another a, a version of that is,
um, Jedediah Jenkins, who isalso a nonfiction author.
Uh, he was talking recentlyabout how we need a word for
someone who is not quite afriend, but more than an
acquaintance,

love that.

coined or coined whatever that means.
Uh, a friendly

Ooh.
It's like some, and they candiffer, right?
Like it's usually someone thatyou're excited to see, you know,
some things about, you're happyto be together, but you wouldn't
necessarily be like, this is myfriend.

right.
Or you wouldn't necessarily havelike, called them to come to
dinner that night,

Yeah, definitely.
That's a very small circle ofpeople.
Yeah.

like maybe they'd be someone that you'd say, Hey,
I'm going here.
Would you want to join?

And if you, yes, and if you hurt them in
some way, you would feel badabout it.
You'd feel like, did I impede ona potential future that I may
have had with this person?
But you would not, it would notbe like, it wouldn't like ruin

(49:40):
your life in the way thathurting a someone you're sort
of, that someone that you'revery close to can sort of
immediately and terribly ruinyour closeness lines.
Yeah.

be perhaps easily re connectable.

Yes.

Yeah.
it's funny because as we, as wesort of went down our little
path of conversation and nottalking specifically about what
it means to have a conversation,uh, I, I encourage listeners to
check out the book and, uh,maybe re-listen to this chunk
and see if there are anyelements from the book that you

(50:17):
can, you can clock or pick up.
Um, some, so it's, it's funnythat you bring up these line
drawings because I switchedbetween physically reading it
and the

Oh, of course, of course.
Yes.
I'm sorry for shaming you aboutthe image.
It's, it's my fault for notdescribing it in the audio book.

totally fine.
Totally fine though.
Hilariously, uh, you talkingabout shaming there is in, there
is a very specific story thatyou tell in the book, about
something you say in a class.
It's something you say in one ofyour classes when you were a
very early

Yes, yes,

even told the rest of the story, I was like,
oh, I see where this is going

course.
Yeah, of course.

Um, anyway, I digress.
But I

Who were you?
Were you proud?
Who were you proud of in thatstory?
Were you proud of the studentsand of me, or were you sort of
like, Ooh, this is cringey

I was proud of both of you because it's hard

cool.

and the fact that the students were able to have
that hard conversation with you,uh, and mentioned that this was
the first time they've everbeen, felt comfortable saying
something to a professor

I know.

to, like, it's hard for any of us to, to
acknowledge that we've made amistake,

I was like a 27-year-old progressive, cool,
young person.
I was like, me of all people isI'm the one that's like doing
this dastardly microaggression.
And they were like, no, no, no,no.
Don't worry.
Like everyone's doing it.

Yeah.

You're just the only one that we feel
comfortable saying it to.
And I was like, oh.
I mean, that doesn't, it doesand does not make it better.
You know what I mean?
Like it,

No, but like this is how we learn and grow.

yeah.
You have to be receptive.
You have to be receptive to hardthings.

hundred percent.
So I was listening to the audiobook and hilariously, you were
talking about this oneparticular section about,
listening and how our mindswander.
And there's so many things thatwe do and like, you know, you
have a lot of great books behindyou.
So I, throughout thisconversation, I've been like,
what books do I see where thesidewalk

They're, they're all my friends.
A lot of'em are, a lot of my,are my like behavioral scientist
friends.
Yeah.
That's very funny.

to the audio book.
You're talking about thisspecific thing.
There, I'm walking my dog.
There are dogs that are barking.
I like Miss pieces, chunks of

Of course.

into my brain.
And I was like, this isliterally, this is exactly what
the book is talking about, rightin this moment.

am so glad you had this meta.
I hope it was validating.
I hope you could feel my love inthat moment.
I wish I could crawl throughyour, the headphones and just
say like, it's okay.
If you missed that lastparagraph.
It's okay.

so validating.
Um, uh, but what I found mostinteresting, is that the book is
called Talk,

Yeah.

and yet really a huge piece of a conversation is
listening.

I actually think the book should probably
be called listening.
I don't, that's that's not agreat title.
A talk is an either, and Ihonestly, I don't love acronyms,
but it kind of had to be theacronym of the book.
It's the, it's the core thing,but really, I think probably a
better title if you'rereflecting what the, the message
of the book is, would besomething like, understood.

(53:34):
Like, how do we make sure thatwhen we're communicating with
people, whether, whether it'sthrough our words or between the
lines, right?
Like not, you cannot possiblysay everything you're thinking
to each other and a lot of greatrelationships.
You don't need to say much atall.
Um, to really understand eachother, what the point of all of
this is.

(53:54):
Like how can we communicatebetter with each other so that
we do come to understand eachother's minds better?
'cause we're doing a lot oftalking that really fails to
come to a place of mutualunderstanding.

Yeah.
Well, yes,

Mm-hmm.

gonna go back and say I feel like I, this, this
comes up in the book, the ideaof needing to explain yourself.

Mm-hmm.

hope I wasn't coming across as, uh, judging
the title of the, I mean, I'msaying I hope I'm, I know that
you don't feel this way,

Oh no, no.

am.
It is an interesting element ofthe doey dough of the
conversation because

Yeah.

one can have a moment of saying, oh, geez, I
hope that me saying, about thelistening portion?
And the book is only calledTalk.
What if it comes across acertain way?

And that would be, and that would be a
legitimate reason for you tomiss something that I was
saying.
In the meantime, you're like,you're hooked on this very kind
rumination of like, oh shit, didI just like hurt her feelings?
And in that moment misssomething that I'm saying then
that like, maybe I wouldactually be hurt that you
missed.
So it's just this constantunfolding of like trying to

(55:09):
balance being engaged with eachother, but also our minds are
just the velocity of thoughtsand ideas and ruminations that
are happening behind the scenesis, is is crazy.

Coming in and out and

Yeah.

I mean, you know, again, we're talking about
looking under the hood a littlebit.
I'm looking at the, two, notdouble space, two single spaced,
Google Doc sheets of things Iwanna talk to you about.
I've talked about about three ofthem.
I'm simultaneously looking atthe time you're a Harvard
professor, and I'm sure you havea lot of shit to do you know, so

(55:43):
I, I'm, should have started thisconversation by saying how do
you navigate, uh, is importantto address in a conversation
when you know you have a limitedamount of time?

Yeah, We're always limited.
There are real limitations,right?
So you could read this book andbe like, okay, I got it.
I'm gonna master this.
But you're still, you're stillalways constrained by time and
also by our human limitations.
So like our brains are notactually supercomputers and we
get tired.
Physically, emotionally,spiritually, motivationally,

(56:17):
tired.
Even if I know I should bepreparing for a conversation
with someone that I deeply loveor like haven't seen in years, I
may not have enough energy ortime to actually prepare in the
way that I want to.
Or I might not be able to bringthis like gusto of energy that I
know is needed to make thingsfun because I'm li I'm exhausted

(56:39):
and like,

you rattled off all the hobbies that you have,

or any, but everybody has, right?
Like everybody,

no, no.
Of course, of course.

like everybody is gets tired.
Everybody is limited by time.
And so like when I actually,when I talk to a lot of high
level leaders like CEOs andstuff, this is their question.
They're like, I love everythingabout this book.
I want, I do so many of thesethings.
I wanna do them all better.
I know this is the key to lifeand leadership and work and

(57:06):
success, all of it.
How do I do it?
I'm so constrained by time.
How can I possibly connect withas many people as possible in a,
in as meaningful a way aspossible when I'm always, I
don't have time to do enough ofthe fun.
I don't have enough time to goon enough like digressions and
sidebars and ask the weirdfollow-up questions.

(57:28):
Um, and I think that is, that isultimately the a, a sort of hard
question to grapple with.
And I think the question of lifeis like, you can't actually be
friends with everyone in theworld and you can't actually
have all the great conversation.
But if you get to a point wherelike, that's your biggest
problem, like we could neverhave enough time with other

(57:50):
people because there's too muchfun to be had and we can't, we
don't have time for all of it.
That's, that's to me, success.

Yeah.
I love that.
I mean, I also see a follow upbook, right?
That addresses that.
I'm, I am curious to learn moreabout nonverbal conversations,

My friend, my friend Dana Carney actually
is an, she's at Berkeley.
Uh, she's amazing.
And she has a book coming outabout nonverbal, um,
communication.
We were like, let's, we shouldbundle our books together.
So everybody gets all of it allat once.
But I believe, I believe herbook is gonna be called Tell,
and it's, um, like a tell andwhen you're playing poker.

(58:30):
Yeah, yeah.

if you're at a, at a loud party, right?
Like, just being able tonavigate that quote unquote
conversation.

Yes.

I'm obsessed with everything about your book.
I'm obsessed with you.
I loved it so much.
There's, there are very fewbooks where I'm like, I'm
holding onto this forever.
I underline things.
I like, I'm going to turn tothis all the time.
I'm gonna give it to people.
I'm gonna talk to people aboutit.
but before I let you go, I haveone.
Quick question.
That is, I say quick question.
Hilarious.
It's, this is probably verysacrilegious, um, is not, is I'm

(59:03):
gonna say what, because I'velearned from the book that

Look at you.

is the best is,

Yes.

um, does a perfect or ideal conversation
look like to you?

Mm.
Imperfect.
Imperfect.

answer.

I think, I think perfection isn't the right
goal.
I think, uh, the, the sort offear of writing this book in the
way that it's written is thatyou get the impression that
we're trying to do all of thethings and do them perfectly,
when actually the, what it meansto be human is to sort of
acknowledge that we, this is avery hard coordination game.

(59:43):
We're ne the best communicators.
Not only are never going to beperfect, but don't aim to be
perfect that in our little flopsand our stumbles and like our
weird idea, our tapping theadjacent possible and our
weirdest ideas, that's whatmakes us most human and the most
able to connect with each other.
It's why we love talking topeople much more than talking to

(01:00:07):
ai.
AI can't do levity.
Well, AI can't ask an off thewall unpredictable, uh,
question.
Uh, a AI can't say no to you.
Like it's just gonna give youeverything you want.
People say no to you, andthey're complicated and messy.
And that's what makes a greatconversation, is being messy
together and, and gettingthrough it and having fun.

Jason Blitman (01:00:29):
I love that.
Thank you.
Thank you for your time.
Thank you for being here.

Alison Wood Brooks (01:00:34):
Thank you for your time and being here and
having these gloriousconversations, uh, all day long.
I'm still celebrating yourearlier conversation.

you.
know, I was just like, get offthe call.
I have more conversations tohave.
So

Alison Wood Brooks (01:00:49):
to be here.
Thank you so much.

you everyone.
Go check out talk the science ofconversation and the art of
being ourselves by Allison WoodBrooks.
You don't wanna miss it.

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