September 9, 2024 • 40 mins
In our season four premiere of Genesis The Podcast, we welcome New York Times bestselling author Leslie Morgan Steiner, who takes us on a deeply personal journey of understanding domestic violence. Leslie shares insights from her transformative 2012 TED Talk, debunking the myths and stereotypes that often surround victims of abuse. She reveals that abuse can affect anyone, regardless of their demographic, and stresses the importance of breaking down these harmful misconceptions to prevent victim-blaming.
Leslie’s compelling narrative continues as she recounts her own experience in an abusive relationship, illustrating how abusers can seem wonderful at times, making it incredibly challenging for victims to leave. She discusses the crucial role of research and supportive friendships in overcoming denial and ultimately making the difficult decision to escape for her safety. Leslie also touches on the significant impact of talking openly about abuse with children, stressing that they are much more resilient and perceptive than we often give them credit for. This conversation aims to shatter the silence that perpetuates cycles of violence and to offer hope and guidance for those in similar situations.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today begins season four of Genesis the Podcast, and
here to kick things off is NewYork Times bestselling author,
leslie Morgan Steiner.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis the Podcast.
Leslie Morgan Steiner is anauthor, consultant and thought
(00:21):
leader on women's leadership,work-life balance, inspirational
parenting, overcoming adversityand surviving violence against
women.
Who lives in Washington DC, sheis the author of four books,
numerous articles and agroundbreaking TED Talk about
domestic violence.
It is season four kickoff dayand I'm thrilled about the
(00:41):
guests we have coming up on theshow over the next few months,
not the least of which istoday's guest, leslie Morgan
Steiner.
In the next few episodes wewill be dispelling myths,
breaking down what underliesdomestic violence and, to put it
plainly, smashing thepatriarchy.
Be sure you subscribe toGenesis the Podcast so you never
miss an episode, leslie welcomeback to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
It's my pleasure to be back, Maria.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
And you are my season four opener.
Okay, so this has to be a goodshow, right?
I know it's going to be a greatshow.
It's going to be the best Okay.
Because way back in 2021, youhelped us launch Genesis, the
podcast.
We're very grateful that youare our very first guest on our
very first episode.
Now, a lot has happened sincethen.
(01:26):
I've seen you a couple of timesover the past couple of years
at the Conference on CrimesAgainst Women and all the work
that you post on social media.
Because you do so much, I meanyou're so much more than a New
York Times bestselling author.
I mean you just you'reeverywhere, right.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
You know, my heart is in empowering women in any way
I can, and I find that socialmedia is a really terrific tool
to reach people.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, and I think everyone should follow you at
Leslie Books on Instagram, justlike I do, because your posts
are great and you do fun things.
You do other fun things, too.
We can talk about those offline, but you are prolific on so
many levels.
Not the least is how patriarchyinfluences our daily lives and
(02:14):
continues to diminish the veryexistence of women.
As discouraging as that sounds,it doesn't stop you or me, or
Genesis, the Podcast or anyonewho believes in an equitable
future from working against it.
In doing so, we so often revealtroubling concepts that
challenge the work.
Among them are society'smisconceptions regarding abusive
(02:37):
relationships and this is animportant one because it has
deep roots and a long history,and there are many myths and
misconceptions about domesticviolence that hopefully we can
dispel today.
To begin with, stereotypingvictims, and you called this
specific thing out in your 2012TED Talk on the topic, and if
(02:58):
people haven't heard this TEDTalk, you can go to TEDcom, you
can go to YouTube or just GoogleLeslie Morgenstein or TED Talk
and it will come up, and it is afantastic foundation for what
it is to be a survivor ofdomestic violence.
But you talked aboutstereotyping victims in that TED
Talk, and so tell us what yousaid about that in the TED Talk?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
about that in the TED Talk.
What I said much moresuccinctly in the TED Talk
because TED Talk has to be shortis that the stereotypes about
victims.
They hurt every kind of victim.
They hurt people who grew upwith domestic violence in their
family because we think it'snormal, or if you grow up
without domestic violence, youthink it's never going to happen
to you.
So basically, the stereotypestry to imply that if you look a
(03:52):
certain way, if you are poor, ifyou are an immigrant, if you
have quote unquote too manychildren, or if you have no
self-esteem or if you're stupid,then you're going to be in an
abusive relationship and thatimplies that it is your fault
and it's just completely nottrue.
Abusive relationships happen inevery single community, every
(04:16):
demographic, every religion,every neighborhood.
It doesn't matter what thecolor of your skin or your
accent or lack of accent, orwhat kind of education you have
or your IQ.
Everybody is vulnerable tobeing an abuse victim.
And what I found over thedecades that I've been doing
this work is that victims haveonly one thing in common, and
(04:40):
that is that we are reallyforgiving big hearted people,
and that is that we are reallyforgiving big hearted people and
we don't leave at the firstsign of trouble because we tend
to feel sympathy for the abusersand we tend to love them very
much and honestly.
Perpetrators look for victimslike that, because it's much
easier to get away with abuse,whether it's physical or
(05:01):
emotional, if you find somebodyreally big hearted and forgiving
.
So I find that none of thestereotypes apply at all and
they are very, very dangerousand destructive because at the
heart of any stereotype isblaming the victim, and victims
should never be blamed.
It's not our fault.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, that's very true.
I mean, the typical idea ofvictims is a person who is very
vulnerable, but, as you call out, you didn't have those
vulnerabilities at the time thatyou became the target of your
fiance and then husband's powerand control any of the
(05:46):
stereotypes either.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
We both had just graduated from Ivy League
schools, we were living in NewYork City, I was working at 17
Magazine, he was working at abig, well-known investment bank
and we had this really brightfuture in front of us.
And I would have told you myself, maria, that I was the last
person on earth who would quoteunquote let a man abuse me,
because I believed all thestereotypes too and I thought I
(06:07):
was too strong and too smart andtoo independent to ever be a
victim of abuse.
But I was a typical victim inso many ways, in large part just
because of my age.
You know, those of us who workin this field know that women
and girls 16 to 24 are threetimes as likely to be victims of
abuse as women of differentages.
And I was 22 when I met him.
(06:28):
I was 23 when I married him andhappily I defied a lot of
stereotypes and that I left himfairly quickly.
I was 27 when I left him and Ialways say to people it was a
relatively short marriage, itwas a relatively short abusive
relationship, but to me it feltlike it lasted forever because
(06:50):
it was so frightening and sojust terrifying and I felt so
trapped for so long.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Yeah, I'm sure that felt like an eternity.
And I've read the book CrazyLove, which kind of the memoir
which talks about what happenedto you over those four years,
and I'm right there with you,talks about what happened to you
over those four years.
And I'm right there with you, Ifelt like it was much longer
than four years when I, when Iread the book, I was like, oh,
this is you know, it felt like alifetime right.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
It was a lifetime, it really was.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Let's talk about some of the other misconceptions
you've experienced, and maybeyou can also elaborate on how
you respond to them.
When you're confronted withpeople's ideas, that may not be
true.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
So the basis of my TED Talk and the biggest
misconception of all is whenpeople say why doesn't she just
leave?
And that question that I haveheard, I think, hundreds of
times, is what motivated me towrite Crazy Love and to do my
(07:51):
TED Talk, because there's justso much ignorance and even
victim blaming in that questionwhy doesn't she just leave?
It implies that leaving is easyand it implies that it is our
fault for staying.
And there are dozens of reasonswhy victims don't leave.
We love the abuser, we feelsorry for him, we have children
(08:14):
with him, we don't have enoughmoney because he has taken
financial control of our life,we have cultural pressures that
tell us that you need to staymarried, you need to stay with
somebody for the children.
There are so many reasons why westay and the way that I handle
this when I talk to people whoare naive, is, first of all,
(08:38):
inside myself.
I try to stay very calm, I trynot to get angry because it just
pushes people away, and I justI try to connect with the person
asking the question and I tryto explain to them why I stayed
and how much I loved him and howmuch I wanted to help him and I
asked them to think about therelationships that they've been
(08:59):
in, because just about everybodyhas been in some kind of
emotionally abusive relationship, and sometimes physically
abusive too.
Often it's a romantic partner,but sometimes it's just, you
know, a best friend from sixthgrade who bullied you, or a boss
who is taking advantage of youand making you work too late or
(09:20):
doing things that you shouldn't.
Your job descriptions does notentail.
We've all been on the receivingend of somebody who took
advantage of us, and so I try toconnect with people and get
them to think about that so thatthey can have sympathy for the
victim instead of jumping toblaming the victim, because part
of the patriarchy is that inany crime that is highly
(09:42):
gendered so I'm talking aboutdomestic violence, sexual
assault, trafficking, sexualharassment our instinct and it
is an instinct is to blame thevictim right away, because it's
so much easier to blame a womanfor being the victim of a crime
than to blame a man forperpetrating it, because if we
(10:02):
blame the man and we hold menresponsible, we have to upset
the whole entire societal system, and that's really hard for us
and it takes a lot of courage.
So that's what I try to do andI try to get people to see this
from the victim's standpoint,and almost always the victim is
a woman, in this case.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
That's great, that's great advice and you know, I
guess the misconception there isthat a woman would allow
herself to be abused and thenstay in it, and it causes people
to ask the question why didn'tshe just leave?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
causes people to ask the question why didn't she just
leave?
It implies almost that we likeit, that we like being abused,
or that we did this on purpose,that we purposefully fell in
love with somebody abusive, andI just promise everybody
listening out there that is nothow it happens.
Every single abusiverelationship starts like a fairy
tale.
Perpetrators are brilliant atseeing what we want and what we
(10:58):
need, and they're veryinsightful people.
I, my abusive ex-husband.
He made me feel like he was thefirst person on earth who ever
really saw me, who understood me, who, who knew my hopes and
dreams, and I'll give you acouple of examples of things
that he said to me when we werefirst dating, you know when.
(11:20):
I was starting out, I justgraduated from Harvard.
I was a writer and editor atSeventeen Magazine.
I was 22 years old.
He told me that he knew I wasgoing to be a great writer one
day.
He told me that he also knewwriter one day.
He told me that he also knewthat I was going to be a great
mother one day which, trust me,no one, not even my own mother,
(11:46):
had ever said that to me and hejust believed in me in a way
that made me feel like I couldleap tall buildings in a single
bound.
I mean, I felt like he made mefeel so safe and protected and
like he was the biggestcheerleader on earth, and that
is really intoxicating.
I didn't see any red flags.
I don't think there were anyred flags at the beginning and I
didn't.
When he started abusing me.
I didn't enjoy it.
(12:08):
It was terrifying to me.
It broke my heart into amillion pieces that this man who
I loved so much was turning onme.
It made me feel unsafe and italso made me feel like I
couldn't tell anybody, because Iwanted to protect him, because
I loved him, and I thought thatwas what true love was all about
, and he had been terriblyabused as a small child and I
(12:30):
knew it wasn't his fault that hewas abusing me.
You know, I it was all socomplicated and there's not a
victim on earth who enjoys beingabused, and the fact that
anybody still thinks that inthis day and age is so unfair
and enraging to me, and it justshows that people really need to
learn about abuse before theyhave any opinion about it
(12:54):
whatsoever about abuse beforethey have any opinion about it
whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Well said, that is so well said, and I thank you for
offering that wisdom to us.
One of the best responses Ithink I've ever heard to the
idea of why doesn't she justleave came from Rachel Louise
Snyder.
She was abused as a child andso this really wasn't domestic
violence per se, but it's a lotmore complicated than that,
right, and so we were talkingabout her, her personal
experience with abuse, and shesaid you know, it's not that we
(13:27):
want the relationship to end, wejust want the abuse to stop,
because we do often love thisperson.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
It's exactly true.
I felt that way every day of myabusive marriage that I wanted
to go back to the beginning,when he was that wonderful
person I loved every day.
And what happened during theabuse cycle is that sometimes he
was this enraged monster whostrangled me and pushed me
(13:59):
downstairs and pulled out thekeys in the car as I was driving
down the highway and heldloaded guns to my head.
Sometimes he was that crazyperson, but then the next day he
would be that man who loved meand made me laugh and told me
again and again how talented Iwas and how smart I was and how
(14:19):
beautiful I was.
And that's what's so hard aboutthis is that in my particular
case, my abuser was 49% the mostwonderful person I'd ever met,
and I really mean that.
It wasn't like I had Stockholmsyndrome or he was snookering me
.
He really was wonderful 49%,but 51% he was the most damaged,
(14:43):
the most damaged anddestructive and fortunately,
over time, my denial broke down.
I had two friends who knewabout the abuse and they helped
break down my denial.
Friends who knew about the abuseand they helped break down my
denial and I did a lot ofresearch about domestic violence
, even as I, when I was indenial and I would have I
wouldn't have been able to tellyou that I was being abused, but
(15:04):
I still was researching it andlearning about it, and that
broke down.
My own denial and that's how Iwas able to leave myself is that
I realized that he was going tokill me if I stayed, and I
didn't.
I did not want that and I knewthe abuse was never going to end
.
One of the biggestmisconceptions is that abuse
won't happen to you, and that'swhat I thought when I was 22
(15:27):
years old and it happened to me,and in some ways, it's
something that I still need toremember today that even though
I'm an abuse survivor, it couldstill happen to me, because
abuse is so common andperpetrators are so good at
convincing us to love them.
So I'm not telling people to beparanoid or to never trust, but
(15:49):
to just know that it couldhappen to anybody.
That's one thing.
Another misconception is thatyou shouldn't talk to children
about abusive relationships,that somehow they're too fragile
or too tender, and what we knowis that over 15 million
(16:09):
children are abused every yearjust in our country, and so what
we need to understand is thatabuse is already happening to
children and that if we don'ttalk about it, all we're
communicating to children isthat this is a taboo subject
that they should never talkabout.
And I talk to my children aboutit.
I've talked to their friendsabout it.
(16:30):
I try to demystify andde-stigmatize abuse around
children by talking about it invery simple, appropriate ways
that they can understand thathitting somebody is never okay
and that being hit is never okay.
Because I want children, I wantto break the cycle of abuse by
reaching as many children as Ican and explain to them that
(16:52):
abuse, any kind of abuse, isnever okay and that they should
always talk about it.
They should break the silenceif it happens to them.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
That's wonderful advice, because definitely
silence, especially by children,will only perpetuate more
violence.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
It helps no one.
Abuse thrives only in silence.
It's true.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Absolutely.
That's really powerful.
Thank you for sharing all ofthat with us.
And yet you know domesticviolence like what you
experienced not all that longago, right?
What were the years that youwere there?
Speaker 2 (17:27):
You know, it actually was so long ago and I think
about this often, especially onthe anniversary of our wedding
date.
It was I mean, it was about itwas 30 years ago that I, that I,
left him.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
And so it was the nineties.
We met in 1988.
We married in in 89.
And I was divorced from him by93.
Okay.
So, the late eighties and earlynineties.
Yeah, yeah, very, verydifferent time, maria, because
(18:02):
that was that was before VAWA,the violence against women act,
passed in um in 1992, I believe.
And it was a very, verydifferent time Like, for
instance, the police did notarrest him.
Then, when they came after thefinal beating and I was, I was
horribly beaten and they couldhave arrested him.
They had plenty of evidence todo that, but they didn't know.
They knew a lot about domesticviolence but they hadn't gone
through all of the policetraining and all the education
awareness that helps victims somuch.
(18:24):
Now, I mean this is sort of afunny thing to say, but it's a
much better time to be a victimnow than it was when I was a
victim.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Oh, there are so many , so many more laws and
resources for people who arevictims of domestic violence.
Now You're right.
So wait a minute.
They didn't arrest him, and why?
Why didn't they arrest him?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
You know, I wish I could go and interview those
police officers and ask them whythey didn't.
The truth is I don't know.
I think that what they werefocused on was helping me, and
thank goodness they were focusedon me.
I was very fortunate that,because sometimes the police
can't tell exactly who thevictim is, they don't know
(19:04):
enough about abuse to suss thatout, or they blame the victim,
especially if they've been tothe same residence multiple
times, or especially if thevictim is a minority and she has
children, because they see thatshe's endangering the children.
So I was, you know, a white, 26year old Wharton business
school student.
Like I couldn't have been moresympathetic.
(19:25):
And the police officers werealso Caucasian and they knew so
much about abuse and theyfocused all their energies on
breaking through to me.
And they did break through.
They told me that if I let himcome back, that he would kill me
and that they would find medead on my own living room floor
.
They told me what I needed todo, which was that I needed to
(19:48):
go file a temporary restrainingorder at city hall, that I
needed to come to their policestation the next day.
Their police station was onlysix blocks away, but I had no
idea where it was.
You know, I just had no idea.
I didn't know that it was acrime.
They told me that it was acrime what he was doing and that
I could press charges.
And I couldn't press charges.
I couldn't possibly presscharges.
I didn't even want to go to thehospital.
(20:09):
I didn't want to admit that any.
I didn't want to admit thetruth to myself that this had
happened, which is the heart, Ithink, of denial.
But the police officers reallybroke through and scared I was.
I was scared anyway.
I was terrified because he hadalmost killed me, ripped off all
my clothes and strangled meinto unconsciousness and broken
my favorite wedding picture overmy head.
You know I was covered in bloodand I was bruised and bloodied
(20:31):
and you know it was a horrificthing.
But the police used that momentto break through to my denial
and to convince me that I had tosave myself.
And they did that and I wishthat they had gone in and
arrested him that night.
They could have.
Um, I couldn't press chargescause I was in too much shock.
But the reason that I wish thatthey had they had arrested him
(20:53):
was that it would have helped mea lot.
It would have helped my divorcea lot, but also it would have
helped him.
It would have helped breakthrough his denial and to my
knowledge, 30 years later, he'snever gotten any help for it.
I believe that he's gone on toabuse other people.
It's a tragedy.
My story is not a tragedy.
My story has a really happyending.
(21:13):
I'm not so sure.
His has a happy ending.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
That's remarkable.
So when we look at your storyand we, you know, we fast
forward 30 years to here we are,in 2024, there are still a lot
of stories that sound just likeyours.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Exactly like mine.
I mean, you know, maria, it'salmost like abusers have all
taken the same class or read thesame script, because they say
the exact same things.
It doesn't matter if you're gay, straight, you know what your
ethnicity is, how old you are,how many kids you have with them
.
They all say the same thing andit happens all the time, and
(21:55):
it's one reason why I'm soinvolved with Conference on
Crimes Against Women In Dallasevery May.
That is the best conferencethat I go to, because there's an
endless supply of victims.
There's always somebody justlike me who is trustworthy and
big hearted and who believesthat we can help this poor guy
(22:16):
to you know, learn what lovereally is and to feel safe.
And we can't help them.
They must learn to helpthemselves, and we have to put a
lot more resources into helpingperpetrators to break the cycle
.
We always need to help victims.
That's the first task andthat's why I speak out, because
I think it helps victims a lotto know that somebody like me
(22:39):
was a victim too.
It has nothing to do with beingstupid, it has nothing to do
with self-esteem, and that alsothat you can get out and live a
great life.
You know, it was a relativelyshort and horrible and
transformative time in my life.
But it was short and at 27, Iwas able to pick myself up,
leave the geographic area wherehe was, get a new job, start
(23:02):
over.
I remarried a couple of yearslater.
I had three kids with my secondhusband.
I've had an incredible career.
I've had a life entirely freeof violence.
Since then.
My kids have had a life free ofviolence.
I've put everything thathappened to me.
I've used it as a force forgood to raise awareness about
abuse and also to heal myselfand to make sure that I broke
(23:22):
the cycle of violence in my ownfamily.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Yeah, you're amazing and I'm so glad that you made it
through and took care ofyourself and we got to meet and
work together on the conferenceon crimes against women and lots
of other things.
But you really hit on somethingabout talking about.
You know, abusers are all thesame.
They say all the same things,they do the same things.
(23:45):
The underpinning there ispatriarchal social conditioning,
and so we've never actuallystopped as a society allowing
people to get away with beingabusive, teaching boys that in
order to be considered a man,you have to be aggressive, you
have to show your strength, andall the other stereotypes, if
(24:07):
you will, that kind of go alongwith that, which are actually
myths about what manhood is.
I know you want to comment onthis, so go ahead.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
There's just so much to say about this.
The fundamental reason why menhurt women is because they can,
because our society lets them,and if you commit sexual assault
or sexual harassment ordomestic violence or trafficking
, there is a single digit chancethat you're going to go to jail
(24:35):
.
We just don't take crimesagainst women as seriously as we
should.
We don't believe victims whenthey come forward.
Family court judges don'tbelieve victims, police officers
don't, detectives don't.
It is still a knee-jerkreaction to believe men more
than to believe women.
So when you have a genderedcrime which all of these are the
(24:59):
victim is a woman, theperpetrator is a man and he has
an advantage from the verybeginning.
We also are very good as asociety at shaming victims into
staying silent, convincing usthat no one will believe us or
that we'll be damaged goods.
If we admit that we weresexually assaulted or a victim
of domestic violence or sexual.
If we're a victim of sexualharassment, we're not going to
(25:20):
get another job.
If we're a victim oftrafficking, people are going to
think that we're sullied andthat we're we're no good anymore
.
I mean, there's so much thatgoes into blaming victims and
shaming them and silencing us,and there's also so much that
goes into convincing men thatthis is okay, that it is their
right, if a woman rejects them,to hurt her, to even to kill her
(25:44):
, that it is somehow okay, ifyou're a college student to put
a drug in somebody's drink atyour fraternity and then
sexually assault her, like thethings that men are told.
It's just barbaric the messagesthat men get that they are
allowed to do this becausethey're superior to women.
And it starts so early.
(26:05):
And I'll tell you two storiesfrom my own family that are
horrifying and really common.
The one involves my mother, somy mother.
Both of my parents are dead now, but my mom was my mother, so
my mother.
Both of my parents are dead now, but my mom was my hero.
She was beautiful.
She had gone to Harvard Collegeherself, she was really
accomplished, and she I watchedmy father every single day of
(26:29):
our family life denigrate her.
He never told her that she wasbeautiful.
He never told her that she wasa good cook.
He never told her that she wassmart.
He made fun of her job.
She was a teacher.
She was a special educationteacher and he denigrated that
all the time because of his owninsecurities, and my mother
loved him so much of his owninsecurities and my mother loved
(26:54):
him so much.
And he my mom came from a verywaspy family.
Generations of Harvard educatedpeople, men and women and my
father came from a poor, dirtpoor family here.
He was the only person in hisfamily who'd ever even graduated
from high school and my momencouraged him and put him
through Harvard Law School anddid all this great stuff and he
paid her back by just mockingher in front of us all the time.
(27:15):
And that experience of seeingmy own father who I loved
ridicule and denigrate my motherbecause she was a woman it
shaped my entire life.
My entire life has beencommitted to convincing people
to respect women and to takethem seriously, and it's because
of what I saw in my own family.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yeah Well, thank you for that.
That was one example, and Iwant to get to the second one.
But I wanted to ask you aquestion.
Sure, when you were a childgrowing up and you were
witnessing this happening rightthere within your family, Were
you conscious that this was awrong, that this was wrong?
Like?
Did you, did it register foryou?
Or was it later that you kindof understood this was a very
(27:57):
abusive dynamic.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
I wasn't conscious of it at all and in fact I did
what a lot of people do in asituation like that that I
thought you know what I want tobe my dad.
I want to be the one with powerhere.
I want to be the one who leavesthe house every day and goes
make, makes lots of money as acorporate lawyer and gets to
decide.
You know everything that mymother does when we, and
(28:20):
everything the whole family does.
So I worked really hard inschool and I went to business
school because I wanted to be mydad and it took me a long time
to realize that my mom was thereal hero in the family and my
dad was the villain, but that Imean.
That took me probably 40 yearsto realize that.
It comes very slowly because youknow my father.
(28:42):
To my knowledge, my fathernever hit my mother, but he
emotionally abused her and abuseis really subtle in so many
ways.
And the thing that I hate themost about emotional abuse is
that you don't realize that whenit's happening, or when it's
happening to somebody you love,it's that subtle and it doesn't
it's.
Often I talk to so many victimsof emotional abuse who don't
(29:03):
realize they were emotionallyabused until after the
relationship ends.
And that's me, with whathappened in my family, but it's
also my mom.
I don't know if my mom wouldhave ever said that my father
emotionally abused her.
She would have said that he wascruel to her and not fair.
But you know, she was a womanof a different generation and
she saw most relationships werelike this.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, for sure.
What's the second story youwere going to tell us?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Okay, flash forward to the next generation, two
generations actually to mydaughter.
I have two daughters and a sonand I love them both so much and
they're very well-versed inemotional and physical violence,
because I've talked to themopenly about it when they were
little.
But my daughter's sixth birthdayparty, we had a little pool
party in the backyard.
(29:50):
It was very casual and reallyfun and one of her classmates,
who was a boy in front of me andhis mother, punched her in the
stomach and I went to comfort mydaughter and the mother of the
boy came to my daughter and saiddo you know why he did that?
He did that because he has acrush on you.
And thank goodness, I know somuch about a crush on you and
(30:12):
thank goodness I know so muchabout abuse, and I also, thank
goodness, I was really angry andI didn't hold back and I said
that is not true.
He does not have a crush on you.
That's not why he hit you.
He hit you because he has aproblem with his anger and he
needs to deal with that.
Wow, yeah, and I've banned himfrom our house for for like two
years.
He eventually came back becausehe had dealt with his anger
(30:33):
better.
But you know, it's like itstarts so early that you have an
adult woman saying to asix-year-old this is your fault
and this is love.
This is a kind of love, Right?
Just craziness, but that's whatwe see all the time, don't you?
I see that all the time, thatkind of incredible mixed
messaging, letting little boysoff the hook for being angry and
(30:54):
somehow, in a twisted way,telling a little girl she should
be flattered, that she waspunched in the stomach at her
own birthday party.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Right.
I mean that's it's awful in somany ways, but it also tells a
victim like you just should justtake it.
I mean you should be flattered.
At least you're getting somekind of attention, right.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Well, it's like it's the crime of passion argument
yeah, that, oh, he loved her somuch, he was just so jealous he
had to kill her.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
That's also Twisted.
Yeah, very twisted, very crazy.
We talked about this a coupleminutes ago, but you presented
the first ever TED Talk by adomestic violence survivor.
Tell us about that experienceand how it empowered you and
others and how it influencedyour future work.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
So the first thing for me was to break the silence
by talking about abuse andwriting Crazy Love, and that
took me 10 years after myabusive marriage ended.
That was a huge thing.
Crazy Love was a New York Timesbestseller.
I got a lot of attention fromit and I was able to speak out
about it.
But the TED Talk took Breakingthe Silence to an entirely new
(31:59):
level because the TED Talk inthe first four hours that the
TED Talk was posted, more peoplewatched that TED Talk than had
bought Crazy Love in four years.
Ted Talks have incredible reachand it was within 24 hours.
It was translated into over 40languages.
It was really explosive and itled to a lot of other media
(32:24):
appearances.
I was on Anderson Cooper fourtimes.
I did a lot of huge mediabecause of the TED Talk.
So it really amplified my voicein a way that was really
powerful and it also for me.
It was so healing for me becauseI felt like all of those people
who heard me in my TED Talk andon CNN and everywhere else that
(32:49):
I went.
They believed me and the mostpowerful you can thing you can
do for any victim, maria, is tobelieve them when they tell
their story, when they have thecourage to tell their story, to
believe them.
It also did something soincredible for me.
It helped me almost change thepast, because I felt like all of
(33:10):
those people who listened to meand who listened to me talk
about being alone in my abusivemarriage, because one of the
most crippling things aboutbeing abused is that it happens
behind closed doors, usuallyjust with you and the abuser, so
you feel so alone.
And having all these peoplethat you know 10 million people
who've watched the Ted talk andthe countless other millions
(33:30):
who've heard me tell my story,different media outlets and
podcasts such as this they makeme feel supported and like I'm
not alone, and that's what Iwant as a survivor of abuse.
I think it's what most victimswant is to feel like they're
believed and they're no longeralone and that they're safe.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
That's incredible.
That's an extremely empoweringoutcome from just doing that one
thing.
Ted Talks are like 20 minutesright.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yeah, mine was 16 minutes.
I will tell you, though, thatit was one of the hardest things
I've ever done.
Telling my story is always hard.
It's always so personal and itmakes me feel kind of like I'm
walking down a highway naked.
But that TED Talk was excrucipersonal and it makes me feel
kind of like I'm walking down ahighway naked, but that TED Talk
was excruciating, and it tookme four months of daily prep to
memorize that speech, and I wascoached through it extensively
(34:21):
by the people at TED.
Now, I was really lucky that aboy who I had known since second
grade was my coach for the TEDTalk.
He's a curator Yep, his name isPhil Klein Wonderful, wonderful
human being.
He curates the TEDxSeattleTalks, and he's the one who
convinced me to do it and he'sthe one who helped me with it.
He also Maria.
(34:41):
He did something so greatbecause he took the template of
my talk and he told me that itwas a great talk but that I had
to really push myself to reacheverybody people who didn't care
about abuse and people whodidn't care about women's issues
.
I had to get them to.
So there's a point in my TEDtalk where I pivot and I say you
(35:02):
might be thinking that I wasreally stupid to say in this
abusive relationship, or thatI'm really strong and smart that
I got out.
Stupid to stay in this abusiverelationship, or that I'm really
strong and smart that I got out.
But this whole time that youthink I've been talking about me
, I actually have been talkingabout you.
I've been talking about you,your daughter, your wife, your
sister, your employee, yourneighbor, because that's how
(35:23):
common abuse is.
It happens everywhere.
This is not a women's issue.
This isn't everyone's issue,and Phil Kline, because he was
so smart, is the one who reallyhelped me create the TED Talk
that is there today.
There's one of the funnydetails about this and one of
the reasons I think the talk isso strong is that my coach was
somebody who I trusted so verymuch.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yes, yes, well, that's a great story, leslie.
Thank you for telling us allabout that.
Well, that's a great story,leslie.
Thank you for telling us allabout that.
So I want you to wrap us uptoday with a very important
message that is a kind of aquote from that TED Talk that
we've been talking about for thepast half hour.
Can you share that message, theclosing message of your TED
(36:05):
Talk, with us?
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Most definitely, I was able to end my own crazy
love story by breaking thesilence.
I'm still breaking the silencetoday.
It's my way of helping othervictims and it's my final
request of you Talk about whatyou heard here.
Abuse thrives only in silence.
So you have the power to enddomestic violence simply by
(36:29):
shining a spotlight on it.
We victims need everyone.
We need every one of you tounderstand the secrets of
domestic violence.
Show abuse the light of day bytalking about it with your
children, your co-workers, yourfriends and family.
Recast survivors as wonderful,lovable people with full futures
(36:50):
.
Recognize the early signs ofviolence and conscientiously
intervene.
De-escalated it.
Show victims a safe way out.
Together we can make our beds,our dinner tables and our
families the safe and peacefuloases they should be.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Crazy Love was authored by Leslie Morgan
Steiner and published in 2009.
Among the book's many pearls ofwisdom is this summary that can
be found on her website,lesliemorgansteinercom.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
If you and I met at one of our children's birthday
parties, in the hallway at workor at a neighbor's barbecue,
you'd never guess my secret thatas a young woman, I fell in
love with and married a man whobeat me regularly and nearly
killed me.
I don't look the part.
I have an MBA and anundergraduate degree from Ivy
League schools.
(37:44):
I live in a red brick house ona tree-lined street in one of
the prettiest neighborhoods inWashington DC.
I've got 15 years of marketingexperience at Fortune 500
companies and a best-sellingbook about motherhood to my name
.
A smart, loyal husband with asexy gap in his front teeth, a
softie who puts out food for thestray kittens in our alley,
(38:05):
three rambunctious, well-lovedchildren, a dog and three cats
of our own.
Everyone in my family is blondethe people at least.
Oh, if only being well-educatedand blonde and coming from a
good family were enough todefang all life's demons.
If I were brave enough, thefirst time I met you, I'd try to
(38:26):
share what torture it is tofall in love with a good man who
cannot leave a troubled pastbehind.
I'd tell you why I stayed foryears and how I finally
confronted someone whose love Ivalued almost more than my own
life.
Then maybe the next time youcame across a woman in an
abusive relationship, instead ofasking why anyone stays with a
(38:47):
man who beats her, you'd havethe empathy and courage to help
her on her way.
We all have secrets we don'treveal the first time we cross
paths with others.
This is mine.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
If there's one key takeaway from this episode,
perhaps it is that, in order tobreak the cycle of violence
against women, we must dismantlewhat we think we know and, in
doing so, uncover and lay barethe roots of this violence,
exposing the truth about whathas happened and how we got here
and extend a hand to all womenin help, hope and support.
(39:20):
In our next episode, we exposethe roots of sexual harassment
and how it is linked to sexualassault and intimate partner
violence and how it is caused bypatriarchal social conditioning
.
I hope you'll join us for thatconversation.
Take care to sexual assault andintimate partner violence and
how it is caused by patriarchalsocial conditioning.
I hope you'll join us for thatconversation.
Take care.
Genesis Women's Shelter andSupport exists to give women in
abusive situations a way out.
(39:40):
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
domestic violence.
You can learn more atgenesisshelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
(40:04):
Genesis Women's Shelter and on Xat Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
Today begins season four of Genesis the Podcast, and
here to kick things off is NewYork Times bestselling author,
leslie Morgan Steiner.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis the Podcast.
Leslie Morgan Steiner is anauthor, consultant and thought
(00:21):
leader on women's leadership,work-life balance, inspirational
parenting, overcoming adversityand surviving violence against
women.
Who lives in Washington DC, sheis the author of four books,
numerous articles and agroundbreaking TED Talk about
domestic violence.
It is season four kickoff dayand I'm thrilled about the
(00:41):
guests we have coming up on theshow over the next few months,
not the least of which istoday's guest, leslie Morgan
Steiner.
In the next few episodes wewill be dispelling myths,
breaking down what underliesdomestic violence and, to put it
plainly, smashing thepatriarchy.
Be sure you subscribe toGenesis the Podcast so you never
miss an episode, leslie welcomeback to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
It's my pleasure to be back, Maria.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
And you are my season four opener.
Okay, so this has to be a goodshow, right?
I know it's going to be a greatshow.
It's going to be the best Okay.
Because way back in 2021, youhelped us launch Genesis, the
podcast.
We're very grateful that youare our very first guest on our
very first episode.
Now, a lot has happened sincethen.
(01:26):
I've seen you a couple of timesover the past couple of years
at the Conference on CrimesAgainst Women and all the work
that you post on social media.
Because you do so much, I meanyou're so much more than a New
York Times bestselling author.
I mean you just you'reeverywhere, right.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
You know, my heart is in empowering women in any way
I can, and I find that socialmedia is a really terrific tool
to reach people.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, and I think everyone should follow you at
Leslie Books on Instagram, justlike I do, because your posts
are great and you do fun things.
You do other fun things, too.
We can talk about those offline, but you are prolific on so
many levels.
Not the least is how patriarchyinfluences our daily lives and
(02:14):
continues to diminish the veryexistence of women.
As discouraging as that sounds,it doesn't stop you or me, or
Genesis, the Podcast or anyonewho believes in an equitable
future from working against it.
In doing so, we so often revealtroubling concepts that
challenge the work.
Among them are society'smisconceptions regarding abusive
(02:37):
relationships and this is animportant one because it has
deep roots and a long history,and there are many myths and
misconceptions about domesticviolence that hopefully we can
dispel today.
To begin with, stereotypingvictims, and you called this
specific thing out in your 2012TED Talk on the topic, and if
(02:58):
people haven't heard this TEDTalk, you can go to TEDcom, you
can go to YouTube or just GoogleLeslie Morgenstein or TED Talk
and it will come up, and it is afantastic foundation for what
it is to be a survivor ofdomestic violence.
But you talked aboutstereotyping victims in that TED
Talk, and so tell us what yousaid about that in the TED Talk?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
about that in the TED Talk.
What I said much moresuccinctly in the TED Talk
because TED Talk has to be shortis that the stereotypes about
victims.
They hurt every kind of victim.
They hurt people who grew upwith domestic violence in their
family because we think it'snormal, or if you grow up
without domestic violence, youthink it's never going to happen
to you.
So basically, the stereotypestry to imply that if you look a
(03:52):
certain way, if you are poor, ifyou are an immigrant, if you
have quote unquote too manychildren, or if you have no
self-esteem or if you're stupid,then you're going to be in an
abusive relationship and thatimplies that it is your fault
and it's just completely nottrue.
Abusive relationships happen inevery single community, every
(04:16):
demographic, every religion,every neighborhood.
It doesn't matter what thecolor of your skin or your
accent or lack of accent, orwhat kind of education you have
or your IQ.
Everybody is vulnerable tobeing an abuse victim.
And what I found over thedecades that I've been doing
this work is that victims haveonly one thing in common, and
(04:40):
that is that we are reallyforgiving big hearted people,
and that is that we are reallyforgiving big hearted people and
we don't leave at the firstsign of trouble because we tend
to feel sympathy for the abusersand we tend to love them very
much and honestly.
Perpetrators look for victimslike that, because it's much
easier to get away with abuse,whether it's physical or
(05:01):
emotional, if you find somebodyreally big hearted and forgiving
.
So I find that none of thestereotypes apply at all and
they are very, very dangerousand destructive because at the
heart of any stereotype isblaming the victim, and victims
should never be blamed.
It's not our fault.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, that's very true.
I mean, the typical idea ofvictims is a person who is very
vulnerable, but, as you call out, you didn't have those
vulnerabilities at the time thatyou became the target of your
fiance and then husband's powerand control any of the
(05:46):
stereotypes either.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
We both had just graduated from Ivy League
schools, we were living in NewYork City, I was working at 17
Magazine, he was working at abig, well-known investment bank
and we had this really brightfuture in front of us.
And I would have told you myself, maria, that I was the last
person on earth who would quoteunquote let a man abuse me,
because I believed all thestereotypes too and I thought I
(06:07):
was too strong and too smart andtoo independent to ever be a
victim of abuse.
But I was a typical victim inso many ways, in large part just
because of my age.
You know, those of us who workin this field know that women
and girls 16 to 24 are threetimes as likely to be victims of
abuse as women of differentages.
And I was 22 when I met him.
(06:28):
I was 23 when I married him andhappily I defied a lot of
stereotypes and that I left himfairly quickly.
I was 27 when I left him and Ialways say to people it was a
relatively short marriage, itwas a relatively short abusive
relationship, but to me it feltlike it lasted forever because
(06:50):
it was so frightening and sojust terrifying and I felt so
trapped for so long.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Yeah, I'm sure that felt like an eternity.
And I've read the book CrazyLove, which kind of the memoir
which talks about what happenedto you over those four years,
and I'm right there with you,talks about what happened to you
over those four years.
And I'm right there with you, Ifelt like it was much longer
than four years when I, when Iread the book, I was like, oh,
this is you know, it felt like alifetime right.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
It was a lifetime, it really was.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Let's talk about some of the other misconceptions
you've experienced, and maybeyou can also elaborate on how
you respond to them.
When you're confronted withpeople's ideas, that may not be
true.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
So the basis of my TED Talk and the biggest
misconception of all is whenpeople say why doesn't she just
leave?
And that question that I haveheard, I think, hundreds of
times, is what motivated me towrite Crazy Love and to do my
(07:51):
TED Talk, because there's justso much ignorance and even
victim blaming in that questionwhy doesn't she just leave?
It implies that leaving is easyand it implies that it is our
fault for staying.
And there are dozens of reasonswhy victims don't leave.
We love the abuser, we feelsorry for him, we have children
(08:14):
with him, we don't have enoughmoney because he has taken
financial control of our life,we have cultural pressures that
tell us that you need to staymarried, you need to stay with
somebody for the children.
There are so many reasons why westay and the way that I handle
this when I talk to people whoare naive, is, first of all,
(08:38):
inside myself.
I try to stay very calm, I trynot to get angry because it just
pushes people away, and I justI try to connect with the person
asking the question and I tryto explain to them why I stayed
and how much I loved him and howmuch I wanted to help him and I
asked them to think about therelationships that they've been
(08:59):
in, because just about everybodyhas been in some kind of
emotionally abusive relationship, and sometimes physically
abusive too.
Often it's a romantic partner,but sometimes it's just, you
know, a best friend from sixthgrade who bullied you, or a boss
who is taking advantage of youand making you work too late or
(09:20):
doing things that you shouldn't.
Your job descriptions does notentail.
We've all been on the receivingend of somebody who took
advantage of us, and so I try toconnect with people and get
them to think about that so thatthey can have sympathy for the
victim instead of jumping toblaming the victim, because part
of the patriarchy is that inany crime that is highly
(09:42):
gendered so I'm talking aboutdomestic violence, sexual
assault, trafficking, sexualharassment our instinct and it
is an instinct is to blame thevictim right away, because it's
so much easier to blame a womanfor being the victim of a crime
than to blame a man forperpetrating it, because if we
(10:02):
blame the man and we hold menresponsible, we have to upset
the whole entire societal system, and that's really hard for us
and it takes a lot of courage.
So that's what I try to do andI try to get people to see this
from the victim's standpoint,and almost always the victim is
a woman, in this case.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
That's great, that's great advice and you know, I
guess the misconception there isthat a woman would allow
herself to be abused and thenstay in it, and it causes people
to ask the question why didn'tshe just leave?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
causes people to ask the question why didn't she just
leave?
It implies almost that we likeit, that we like being abused,
or that we did this on purpose,that we purposefully fell in
love with somebody abusive, andI just promise everybody
listening out there that is nothow it happens.
Every single abusiverelationship starts like a fairy
tale.
Perpetrators are brilliant atseeing what we want and what we
(10:58):
need, and they're veryinsightful people.
I, my abusive ex-husband.
He made me feel like he was thefirst person on earth who ever
really saw me, who understood me, who, who knew my hopes and
dreams, and I'll give you acouple of examples of things
that he said to me when we werefirst dating, you know when.
(11:20):
I was starting out, I justgraduated from Harvard.
I was a writer and editor atSeventeen Magazine.
I was 22 years old.
He told me that he knew I wasgoing to be a great writer one
day.
He told me that he also knewwriter one day.
He told me that he also knewthat I was going to be a great
mother one day which, trust me,no one, not even my own mother,
(11:46):
had ever said that to me and hejust believed in me in a way
that made me feel like I couldleap tall buildings in a single
bound.
I mean, I felt like he made mefeel so safe and protected and
like he was the biggestcheerleader on earth, and that
is really intoxicating.
I didn't see any red flags.
I don't think there were anyred flags at the beginning and I
didn't.
When he started abusing me.
I didn't enjoy it.
(12:08):
It was terrifying to me.
It broke my heart into amillion pieces that this man who
I loved so much was turning onme.
It made me feel unsafe and italso made me feel like I
couldn't tell anybody, because Iwanted to protect him, because
I loved him, and I thought thatwas what true love was all about
, and he had been terriblyabused as a small child and I
(12:30):
knew it wasn't his fault that hewas abusing me.
You know, I it was all socomplicated and there's not a
victim on earth who enjoys beingabused, and the fact that
anybody still thinks that inthis day and age is so unfair
and enraging to me, and it justshows that people really need to
learn about abuse before theyhave any opinion about it
(12:54):
whatsoever about abuse beforethey have any opinion about it
whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Well said, that is so well said, and I thank you for
offering that wisdom to us.
One of the best responses Ithink I've ever heard to the
idea of why doesn't she justleave came from Rachel Louise
Snyder.
She was abused as a child andso this really wasn't domestic
violence per se, but it's a lotmore complicated than that,
right, and so we were talkingabout her, her personal
experience with abuse, and shesaid you know, it's not that we
(13:27):
want the relationship to end, wejust want the abuse to stop,
because we do often love thisperson.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
It's exactly true.
I felt that way every day of myabusive marriage that I wanted
to go back to the beginning,when he was that wonderful
person I loved every day.
And what happened during theabuse cycle is that sometimes he
was this enraged monster whostrangled me and pushed me
(13:59):
downstairs and pulled out thekeys in the car as I was driving
down the highway and heldloaded guns to my head.
Sometimes he was that crazyperson, but then the next day he
would be that man who loved meand made me laugh and told me
again and again how talented Iwas and how smart I was and how
(14:19):
beautiful I was.
And that's what's so hard aboutthis is that in my particular
case, my abuser was 49% the mostwonderful person I'd ever met,
and I really mean that.
It wasn't like I had Stockholmsyndrome or he was snookering me
.
He really was wonderful 49%,but 51% he was the most damaged,
(14:43):
the most damaged anddestructive and fortunately,
over time, my denial broke down.
I had two friends who knewabout the abuse and they helped
break down my denial.
Friends who knew about the abuseand they helped break down my
denial and I did a lot ofresearch about domestic violence
, even as I, when I was indenial and I would have I
wouldn't have been able to tellyou that I was being abused, but
(15:04):
I still was researching it andlearning about it, and that
broke down.
My own denial and that's how Iwas able to leave myself is that
I realized that he was going tokill me if I stayed, and I
didn't.
I did not want that and I knewthe abuse was never going to end
.
One of the biggestmisconceptions is that abuse
won't happen to you, and that'swhat I thought when I was 22
(15:27):
years old and it happened to me,and in some ways, it's
something that I still need toremember today that even though
I'm an abuse survivor, it couldstill happen to me, because
abuse is so common andperpetrators are so good at
convincing us to love them.
So I'm not telling people to beparanoid or to never trust, but
(15:49):
to just know that it couldhappen to anybody.
That's one thing.
Another misconception is thatyou shouldn't talk to children
about abusive relationships,that somehow they're too fragile
or too tender, and what we knowis that over 15 million
(16:09):
children are abused every yearjust in our country, and so what
we need to understand is thatabuse is already happening to
children and that if we don'ttalk about it, all we're
communicating to children isthat this is a taboo subject
that they should never talkabout.
And I talk to my children aboutit.
I've talked to their friendsabout it.
(16:30):
I try to demystify andde-stigmatize abuse around
children by talking about it invery simple, appropriate ways
that they can understand thathitting somebody is never okay
and that being hit is never okay.
Because I want children, I wantto break the cycle of abuse by
reaching as many children as Ican and explain to them that
(16:52):
abuse, any kind of abuse, isnever okay and that they should
always talk about it.
They should break the silenceif it happens to them.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
That's wonderful advice, because definitely
silence, especially by children,will only perpetuate more
violence.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
It helps no one.
Abuse thrives only in silence.
It's true.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Absolutely.
That's really powerful.
Thank you for sharing all ofthat with us.
And yet you know domesticviolence like what you
experienced not all that longago, right?
What were the years that youwere there?
Speaker 2 (17:27):
You know, it actually was so long ago and I think
about this often, especially onthe anniversary of our wedding
date.
It was I mean, it was about itwas 30 years ago that I, that I,
left him.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
And so it was the nineties.
We met in 1988.
We married in in 89.
And I was divorced from him by93.
Okay.
So, the late eighties and earlynineties.
Yeah, yeah, very, verydifferent time, maria, because
(18:02):
that was that was before VAWA,the violence against women act,
passed in um in 1992, I believe.
And it was a very, verydifferent time Like, for
instance, the police did notarrest him.
Then, when they came after thefinal beating and I was, I was
horribly beaten and they couldhave arrested him.
They had plenty of evidence todo that, but they didn't know.
They knew a lot about domesticviolence but they hadn't gone
through all of the policetraining and all the education
awareness that helps victims somuch.
(18:24):
Now, I mean this is sort of afunny thing to say, but it's a
much better time to be a victimnow than it was when I was a
victim.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Oh, there are so many , so many more laws and
resources for people who arevictims of domestic violence.
Now You're right.
So wait a minute.
They didn't arrest him, and why?
Why didn't they arrest him?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
You know, I wish I could go and interview those
police officers and ask them whythey didn't.
The truth is I don't know.
I think that what they werefocused on was helping me, and
thank goodness they were focusedon me.
I was very fortunate that,because sometimes the police
can't tell exactly who thevictim is, they don't know
(19:04):
enough about abuse to suss thatout, or they blame the victim,
especially if they've been tothe same residence multiple
times, or especially if thevictim is a minority and she has
children, because they see thatshe's endangering the children.
So I was, you know, a white, 26year old Wharton business
school student.
Like I couldn't have been moresympathetic.
(19:25):
And the police officers werealso Caucasian and they knew so
much about abuse and theyfocused all their energies on
breaking through to me.
And they did break through.
They told me that if I let himcome back, that he would kill me
and that they would find medead on my own living room floor
.
They told me what I needed todo, which was that I needed to
(19:48):
go file a temporary restrainingorder at city hall, that I
needed to come to their policestation the next day.
Their police station was onlysix blocks away, but I had no
idea where it was.
You know, I just had no idea.
I didn't know that it was acrime.
They told me that it was acrime what he was doing and that
I could press charges.
And I couldn't press charges.
I couldn't possibly presscharges.
I didn't even want to go to thehospital.
(20:09):
I didn't want to admit that any.
I didn't want to admit thetruth to myself that this had
happened, which is the heart, Ithink, of denial.
But the police officers reallybroke through and scared I was.
I was scared anyway.
I was terrified because he hadalmost killed me, ripped off all
my clothes and strangled meinto unconsciousness and broken
my favorite wedding picture overmy head.
You know I was covered in bloodand I was bruised and bloodied
(20:31):
and you know it was a horrificthing.
But the police used that momentto break through to my denial
and to convince me that I had tosave myself.
And they did that and I wishthat they had gone in and
arrested him that night.
They could have.
Um, I couldn't press chargescause I was in too much shock.
But the reason that I wish thatthey had they had arrested him
(20:53):
was that it would have helped mea lot.
It would have helped my divorcea lot, but also it would have
helped him.
It would have helped breakthrough his denial and to my
knowledge, 30 years later, he'snever gotten any help for it.
I believe that he's gone on toabuse other people.
It's a tragedy.
My story is not a tragedy.
My story has a really happyending.
(21:13):
I'm not so sure.
His has a happy ending.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
That's remarkable.
So when we look at your storyand we, you know, we fast
forward 30 years to here we are,in 2024, there are still a lot
of stories that sound just likeyours.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Exactly like mine.
I mean, you know, maria, it'salmost like abusers have all
taken the same class or read thesame script, because they say
the exact same things.
It doesn't matter if you're gay, straight, you know what your
ethnicity is, how old you are,how many kids you have with them
.
They all say the same thing andit happens all the time, and
(21:55):
it's one reason why I'm soinvolved with Conference on
Crimes Against Women In Dallasevery May.
That is the best conferencethat I go to, because there's an
endless supply of victims.
There's always somebody justlike me who is trustworthy and
big hearted and who believesthat we can help this poor guy
(22:16):
to you know, learn what lovereally is and to feel safe.
And we can't help them.
They must learn to helpthemselves, and we have to put a
lot more resources into helpingperpetrators to break the cycle
.
We always need to help victims.
That's the first task andthat's why I speak out, because
I think it helps victims a lotto know that somebody like me
(22:39):
was a victim too.
It has nothing to do with beingstupid, it has nothing to do
with self-esteem, and that alsothat you can get out and live a
great life.
You know, it was a relativelyshort and horrible and
transformative time in my life.
But it was short and at 27, Iwas able to pick myself up,
leave the geographic area wherehe was, get a new job, start
(23:02):
over.
I remarried a couple of yearslater.
I had three kids with my secondhusband.
I've had an incredible career.
I've had a life entirely freeof violence.
Since then.
My kids have had a life free ofviolence.
I've put everything thathappened to me.
I've used it as a force forgood to raise awareness about
abuse and also to heal myselfand to make sure that I broke
(23:22):
the cycle of violence in my ownfamily.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Yeah, you're amazing and I'm so glad that you made it
through and took care ofyourself and we got to meet and
work together on the conferenceon crimes against women and lots
of other things.
But you really hit on somethingabout talking about.
You know, abusers are all thesame.
They say all the same things,they do the same things.
(23:45):
The underpinning there ispatriarchal social conditioning,
and so we've never actuallystopped as a society allowing
people to get away with beingabusive, teaching boys that in
order to be considered a man,you have to be aggressive, you
have to show your strength, andall the other stereotypes, if
(24:07):
you will, that kind of go alongwith that, which are actually
myths about what manhood is.
I know you want to comment onthis, so go ahead.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
There's just so much to say about this.
The fundamental reason why menhurt women is because they can,
because our society lets them,and if you commit sexual assault
or sexual harassment ordomestic violence or trafficking
, there is a single digit chancethat you're going to go to jail
(24:35):
.
We just don't take crimesagainst women as seriously as we
should.
We don't believe victims whenthey come forward.
Family court judges don'tbelieve victims, police officers
don't, detectives don't.
It is still a knee-jerkreaction to believe men more
than to believe women.
So when you have a genderedcrime which all of these are the
(24:59):
victim is a woman, theperpetrator is a man and he has
an advantage from the verybeginning.
We also are very good as asociety at shaming victims into
staying silent, convincing usthat no one will believe us or
that we'll be damaged goods.
If we admit that we weresexually assaulted or a victim
of domestic violence or sexual.
If we're a victim of sexualharassment, we're not going to
(25:20):
get another job.
If we're a victim oftrafficking, people are going to
think that we're sullied andthat we're we're no good anymore
.
I mean, there's so much thatgoes into blaming victims and
shaming them and silencing us,and there's also so much that
goes into convincing men thatthis is okay, that it is their
right, if a woman rejects them,to hurt her, to even to kill her
(25:44):
, that it is somehow okay, ifyou're a college student to put
a drug in somebody's drink atyour fraternity and then
sexually assault her, like thethings that men are told.
It's just barbaric the messagesthat men get that they are
allowed to do this becausethey're superior to women.
And it starts so early.
(26:05):
And I'll tell you two storiesfrom my own family that are
horrifying and really common.
The one involves my mother, somy mother.
Both of my parents are dead now, but my mom was my mother, so
my mother.
Both of my parents are dead now, but my mom was my hero.
She was beautiful.
She had gone to Harvard Collegeherself, she was really
accomplished, and she I watchedmy father every single day of
(26:29):
our family life denigrate her.
He never told her that she wasbeautiful.
He never told her that she wasa good cook.
He never told her that she wassmart.
He made fun of her job.
She was a teacher.
She was a special educationteacher and he denigrated that
all the time because of his owninsecurities, and my mother
loved him so much of his owninsecurities and my mother loved
(26:54):
him so much.
And he my mom came from a verywaspy family.
Generations of Harvard educatedpeople, men and women and my
father came from a poor, dirtpoor family here.
He was the only person in hisfamily who'd ever even graduated
from high school and my momencouraged him and put him
through Harvard Law School anddid all this great stuff and he
paid her back by just mockingher in front of us all the time.
(27:15):
And that experience of seeingmy own father who I loved
ridicule and denigrate my motherbecause she was a woman it
shaped my entire life.
My entire life has beencommitted to convincing people
to respect women and to takethem seriously, and it's because
of what I saw in my own family.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yeah Well, thank you for that.
That was one example, and Iwant to get to the second one.
But I wanted to ask you aquestion.
Sure, when you were a childgrowing up and you were
witnessing this happening rightthere within your family, Were
you conscious that this was awrong, that this was wrong?
Like?
Did you, did it register foryou?
Or was it later that you kindof understood this was a very
(27:57):
abusive dynamic.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
I wasn't conscious of it at all and in fact I did
what a lot of people do in asituation like that that I
thought you know what I want tobe my dad.
I want to be the one with powerhere.
I want to be the one who leavesthe house every day and goes
make, makes lots of money as acorporate lawyer and gets to
decide.
You know everything that mymother does when we, and
(28:20):
everything the whole family does.
So I worked really hard inschool and I went to business
school because I wanted to be mydad and it took me a long time
to realize that my mom was thereal hero in the family and my
dad was the villain, but that Imean.
That took me probably 40 yearsto realize that.
It comes very slowly because youknow my father.
(28:42):
To my knowledge, my fathernever hit my mother, but he
emotionally abused her and abuseis really subtle in so many
ways.
And the thing that I hate themost about emotional abuse is
that you don't realize that whenit's happening, or when it's
happening to somebody you love,it's that subtle and it doesn't
it's.
Often I talk to so many victimsof emotional abuse who don't
(29:03):
realize they were emotionallyabused until after the
relationship ends.
And that's me, with whathappened in my family, but it's
also my mom.
I don't know if my mom wouldhave ever said that my father
emotionally abused her.
She would have said that he wascruel to her and not fair.
But you know, she was a womanof a different generation and
she saw most relationships werelike this.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, for sure.
What's the second story youwere going to tell us?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Okay, flash forward to the next generation, two
generations actually to mydaughter.
I have two daughters and a sonand I love them both so much and
they're very well-versed inemotional and physical violence,
because I've talked to themopenly about it when they were
little.
But my daughter's sixth birthdayparty, we had a little pool
party in the backyard.
(29:50):
It was very casual and reallyfun and one of her classmates,
who was a boy in front of me andhis mother, punched her in the
stomach and I went to comfort mydaughter and the mother of the
boy came to my daughter and saiddo you know why he did that?
He did that because he has acrush on you.
And thank goodness, I know somuch about a crush on you and
(30:12):
thank goodness I know so muchabout abuse, and I also, thank
goodness, I was really angry andI didn't hold back and I said
that is not true.
He does not have a crush on you.
That's not why he hit you.
He hit you because he has aproblem with his anger and he
needs to deal with that.
Wow, yeah, and I've banned himfrom our house for for like two
years.
He eventually came back becausehe had dealt with his anger
(30:33):
better.
But you know, it's like itstarts so early that you have an
adult woman saying to asix-year-old this is your fault
and this is love.
This is a kind of love, Right?
Just craziness, but that's whatwe see all the time, don't you?
I see that all the time, thatkind of incredible mixed
messaging, letting little boysoff the hook for being angry and
(30:54):
somehow, in a twisted way,telling a little girl she should
be flattered, that she waspunched in the stomach at her
own birthday party.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Right.
I mean that's it's awful in somany ways, but it also tells a
victim like you just should justtake it.
I mean you should be flattered.
At least you're getting somekind of attention, right.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Well, it's like it's the crime of passion argument
yeah, that, oh, he loved her somuch, he was just so jealous he
had to kill her.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
That's also Twisted.
Yeah, very twisted, very crazy.
We talked about this a coupleminutes ago, but you presented
the first ever TED Talk by adomestic violence survivor.
Tell us about that experienceand how it empowered you and
others and how it influencedyour future work.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
So the first thing for me was to break the silence
by talking about abuse andwriting Crazy Love, and that
took me 10 years after myabusive marriage ended.
That was a huge thing.
Crazy Love was a New York Timesbestseller.
I got a lot of attention fromit and I was able to speak out
about it.
But the TED Talk took Breakingthe Silence to an entirely new
(31:59):
level because the TED Talk inthe first four hours that the
TED Talk was posted, more peoplewatched that TED Talk than had
bought Crazy Love in four years.
Ted Talks have incredible reachand it was within 24 hours.
It was translated into over 40languages.
It was really explosive and itled to a lot of other media
(32:24):
appearances.
I was on Anderson Cooper fourtimes.
I did a lot of huge mediabecause of the TED Talk.
So it really amplified my voicein a way that was really
powerful and it also for me.
It was so healing for me becauseI felt like all of those people
who heard me in my TED Talk andon CNN and everywhere else that
(32:49):
I went.
They believed me and the mostpowerful you can thing you can
do for any victim, maria, is tobelieve them when they tell
their story, when they have thecourage to tell their story, to
believe them.
It also did something soincredible for me.
It helped me almost change thepast, because I felt like all of
(33:10):
those people who listened to meand who listened to me talk
about being alone in my abusivemarriage, because one of the
most crippling things aboutbeing abused is that it happens
behind closed doors, usuallyjust with you and the abuser, so
you feel so alone.
And having all these peoplethat you know 10 million people
who've watched the Ted talk andthe countless other millions
(33:30):
who've heard me tell my story,different media outlets and
podcasts such as this they makeme feel supported and like I'm
not alone, and that's what Iwant as a survivor of abuse.
I think it's what most victimswant is to feel like they're
believed and they're no longeralone and that they're safe.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
That's incredible.
That's an extremely empoweringoutcome from just doing that one
thing.
Ted Talks are like 20 minutesright.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yeah, mine was 16 minutes.
I will tell you, though, thatit was one of the hardest things
I've ever done.
Telling my story is always hard.
It's always so personal and itmakes me feel kind of like I'm
walking down a highway naked.
But that TED Talk was excrucipersonal and it makes me feel
kind of like I'm walking down ahighway naked, but that TED Talk
was excruciating, and it tookme four months of daily prep to
memorize that speech, and I wascoached through it extensively
(34:21):
by the people at TED.
Now, I was really lucky that aboy who I had known since second
grade was my coach for the TEDTalk.
He's a curator Yep, his name isPhil Klein Wonderful, wonderful
human being.
He curates the TEDxSeattleTalks, and he's the one who
convinced me to do it and he'sthe one who helped me with it.
He also Maria.
(34:41):
He did something so greatbecause he took the template of
my talk and he told me that itwas a great talk but that I had
to really push myself to reacheverybody people who didn't care
about abuse and people whodidn't care about women's issues
.
I had to get them to.
So there's a point in my TEDtalk where I pivot and I say you
(35:02):
might be thinking that I wasreally stupid to say in this
abusive relationship, or thatI'm really strong and smart that
I got out.
Stupid to stay in this abusiverelationship, or that I'm really
strong and smart that I got out.
But this whole time that youthink I've been talking about me
, I actually have been talkingabout you.
I've been talking about you,your daughter, your wife, your
sister, your employee, yourneighbor, because that's how
(35:23):
common abuse is.
It happens everywhere.
This is not a women's issue.
This isn't everyone's issue,and Phil Kline, because he was
so smart, is the one who reallyhelped me create the TED Talk
that is there today.
There's one of the funnydetails about this and one of
the reasons I think the talk isso strong is that my coach was
somebody who I trusted so verymuch.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yes, yes, well, that's a great story, leslie.
Thank you for telling us allabout that.
Well, that's a great story,leslie.
Thank you for telling us allabout that.
So I want you to wrap us uptoday with a very important
message that is a kind of aquote from that TED Talk that
we've been talking about for thepast half hour.
Can you share that message, theclosing message of your TED
(36:05):
Talk, with us?
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Most definitely, I was able to end my own crazy
love story by breaking thesilence.
I'm still breaking the silencetoday.
It's my way of helping othervictims and it's my final
request of you Talk about whatyou heard here.
Abuse thrives only in silence.
So you have the power to enddomestic violence simply by
(36:29):
shining a spotlight on it.
We victims need everyone.
We need every one of you tounderstand the secrets of
domestic violence.
Show abuse the light of day bytalking about it with your
children, your co-workers, yourfriends and family.
Recast survivors as wonderful,lovable people with full futures
(36:50):
.
Recognize the early signs ofviolence and conscientiously
intervene.
De-escalated it.
Show victims a safe way out.
Together we can make our beds,our dinner tables and our
families the safe and peacefuloases they should be.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Crazy Love was authored by Leslie Morgan
Steiner and published in 2009.
Among the book's many pearls ofwisdom is this summary that can
be found on her website,lesliemorgansteinercom.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
If you and I met at one of our children's birthday
parties, in the hallway at workor at a neighbor's barbecue,
you'd never guess my secret thatas a young woman, I fell in
love with and married a man whobeat me regularly and nearly
killed me.
I don't look the part.
I have an MBA and anundergraduate degree from Ivy
League schools.
(37:44):
I live in a red brick house ona tree-lined street in one of
the prettiest neighborhoods inWashington DC.
I've got 15 years of marketingexperience at Fortune 500
companies and a best-sellingbook about motherhood to my name
.
A smart, loyal husband with asexy gap in his front teeth, a
softie who puts out food for thestray kittens in our alley,
(38:05):
three rambunctious, well-lovedchildren, a dog and three cats
of our own.
Everyone in my family is blondethe people at least.
Oh, if only being well-educatedand blonde and coming from a
good family were enough todefang all life's demons.
If I were brave enough, thefirst time I met you, I'd try to
(38:26):
share what torture it is tofall in love with a good man who
cannot leave a troubled pastbehind.
I'd tell you why I stayed foryears and how I finally
confronted someone whose love Ivalued almost more than my own
life.
Then maybe the next time youcame across a woman in an
abusive relationship, instead ofasking why anyone stays with a
(38:47):
man who beats her, you'd havethe empathy and courage to help
her on her way.
We all have secrets we don'treveal the first time we cross
paths with others.
This is mine.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
If there's one key takeaway from this episode,
perhaps it is that, in order tobreak the cycle of violence
against women, we must dismantlewhat we think we know and, in
doing so, uncover and lay barethe roots of this violence,
exposing the truth about whathas happened and how we got here
and extend a hand to all womenin help, hope and support.
(39:20):
In our next episode, we exposethe roots of sexual harassment
and how it is linked to sexualassault and intimate partner
violence and how it is caused bypatriarchal social conditioning
.
I hope you'll join us for thatconversation.
Take care to sexual assault andintimate partner violence and
how it is caused by patriarchalsocial conditioning.
I hope you'll join us for thatconversation.
Take care.
Genesis Women's Shelter andSupport exists to give women in
abusive situations a way out.
(39:40):
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
domestic violence.
You can learn more atgenesisshelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
(40:04):
Genesis Women's Shelter and on Xat Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
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