September 30, 2023 • 39 mins
In this episode, Heather Zeitzwolfe sits down with Elaine Williams (speech & video coach) from Captivate The Crowd to discuss the allure and pitfalls of business gurus and cults.
They delve deep into:
- The attraction and potential dangers of following business gurus and cults.
- The initial inspiration from a guru and the subsequent journey.
- Evaluating the real benefits and drawbacks of guru-led advice.
- The hidden costs involved in terms of time, money, and energy.
- Exposing the cult-like tactics prevalent in MLMs and pyramid schemes.
- The fine line between self-improvement and mind control
- Using critical thinking to know what truly resonates and when to step back.
- Practical tips for creating an authentic business that aligns with your individual values.
The duo emphasizes the importance of escaping the "guru maze" and embarking on a business journey that truly aligns ethically with one's values. The episode encourages listeners to build genuine, authentic businesses that are true to themselves and to approach everything with an open mind, steering clear of blindly following the herd.
Contact Heather: Instagram - LinkedIn - Email: heather@GetRadBiz.com
Get Radical With Your Business: Facebook - Website
Book a Discovery Call (via Zoom) - Schedule
Zeitzwolfe Accounting: Website - Facebook
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
MacBook Pro Microphone (00:00):
Hey everyone.
(00:00):
This is Heather Zeitzwolfe, andyou're listening to Get Radical
With Your Business.
I know it's been a while sinceI've put out a podcast episode.
Oh my God.
But I'm back again.
And I'm with my friend, ElaineWilliams, who is a speech and
video coach.
We are talking about businesscults gurus and the blurred
(00:24):
lines between.
Self-improvement and when itstarts to be like brainwashing,
I hope you enjoy thisconversation and it makes you
think about some of the peoplethat you follow.
Some of the influencers are youfollowing them at a cult-like
status?
(00:44):
Or are you questioning what theytell you?
It's so important for us tothink for ourselves.
We can learn from people.
I love to follow people.
I learned from people all thetime.
I read tons and tons of books.
I'm a lifelong learner.
But I also want to keep an openmind to the possibilities they
don't have all the answers.
Maybe doesn't resonate with meand I don't blindly follow
(01:07):
somebody because they tell methis is the way.
Always keep an open mind here ismy conversation with Elaine
Williams about breaking free.
Building an authentic businessbeyond the cults and gurus.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (01:27):
I started thinking about this Elaine how
I've fallen down the guru trapand I have this thing that
sometimes things feel like acult, and I will step back
because I'm like, this feelslike a cult, and and so I did a
little bit.
I have been in a few of those.
there's many things that can bebusiness cults.
It can be like MLMs areconsidered sometimes like a cult
(01:48):
corporations can be like a cult.
We're going to talk about allthese different things.
And I've.
experimented with, gurus andthings like that.
And you spend money and thenafterwards, you're like what was
that about?
What is your experience, Elaine?
What have you done
Elaine Williams (02:03):
over the years?
How long do you have, sister?
I'm going to change the namesbecause.
I don't want to disparageanybody, but if, if anyone is
curious or horrified feel freeto reach out to me, but I'm not
going to say the names, I hadsome friends that were in this
energy guy stuff had known themfor a long time and they were
(02:24):
both like glowing and happy andlean.
And I thought, wow, and I waspretty burnt at the time I was
working 50, 60 hour weeks and.
Hiatus, like something's got togive, I got it.
And I joined the thing.
even though I love the energywork about it and I love the
community, what always was weirdwas there was like such a
(02:44):
reverence for the guy let's justcall him Dr.
Gary.
they would be like, it's Dr.
G.
It's Dr.
Gary.
Dr.
Gary.
Oh, Dr.
Gary.
And don't get me wrong.
I love teachers.
I would be dead if I hadn't hadsome amazing teachers and
mentors.
Like I'm a huge fan.
I've been a coach since forever.
Before I was a coach when peoplethought that meant like you
(03:07):
coach soccer.
I was a coach before there wereso many coaches.
I was studying with Debbie Fordin 2004.
And so I've been around theblock a lot.
even though I loved the energyof it and I knew that it was
healing me in some ways, therewas always a part of me My gut
was always like, of the waypeople spoke about the head guy.
(03:31):
And it was always like, Oh, Ooh.
I always thought.
I don't want to get dependent onone person.
whatever your religion is or notyou have meditation teachers
they're not like, you mustfollow me.
They're like, no, you got tokeep meditating and go to some
yoga and get off the coffee orwhatever.
Right.
anyway, so I'm grateful.
So anyway, I was in this work, Iwould still go see this person.
(03:53):
I know that it helped me.
I was always a little bit like,and then the person itself, he
would like miss calls.
He would reschedule.
And then he'd yell at you.
I remember one time I had a callthat I paid for and scheduled.
And he was like, I'm runninglate.
I'm running late.
I'm running late.
So we played, we did that for45, 50 minutes.
(04:15):
And then he was like, I'm goingto have to reschedule.
And so the next day when we'reon that call, he's like, why are
you driving right now?
This is your call.
And I was like, because we hadto reschedule because of you,
anyway, so I'm so grateful.
I always had one foot out and AAsays, take what you need, leave
the rest.
long story short.
I'm in and out and there wereall these volunteers.
(04:36):
that's always a little bit of ared flag too, because they would
look, I remember I would go tothese events and they would look
exhausted.
And I used to think, aren't theysupposed to be like.
Lift it up from being in thisenergy bottom line, I go and I
have like my final treatmentwith this person who tells me,
okay, you got to get take anuber because you couldn't drive
(04:59):
after it was like a heavy,intense mistake.
Size your cupping.
It was all this.
It was great.
Great work.
The work itself was great.
He's like, take an Uber and meetme over there.
You got to get over to thisthing.
So I remember like busting myass out of the Airbnb to take an
Uber.
And then I sat there waiting inhis hallway for three hours.
(05:20):
And when he finally strolled up,he had been to Whole Foods.
And I remember just thinking,was this a test?
Did I misunderstand?
After that whole experience, Ijust took a step back because I
was like, my gut was just like,something is not right.
And then come to find out, ayear and a half later, or,
recently my friends said, Oh myGod, all this stuff came out
(05:42):
about Dr.
Gary.
And it turns out he'd beenmisusing his power sexually, did
it, all these different thingsand it all came out and he
wouldn't take responsibility forit.
And my friend called me and shesaid, I want to acknowledge you
because it was very cult likeand you knew something was off
and then you took yourself out.
(06:02):
So I really want to acknowledgeyou for that.
And I'm sharing that not thatI'm so great, but as a 55 year
old business woman, I've had toretrain myself to listen to my
gut because there were manytimes I did not.
And so I'm just going toencourage anybody.
Take what you need and leave therest.
And if you ever felt like thingsare too weird or too intense, or
(06:23):
it just feels off, it's okay tostep back, go for a walk, say,
you know what?
I don't know if I can come tothe conference.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (06:31):
You could invest in a lot of these gurus,
spend a lot of money and feel,you're so invested that you
don't want to walk away.
But if it doesn't feel right,it's okay to walk away.
It's okay to make mistakes inyour business.
I think like a lot of thesebusiness gurus, there's a lot of
great things about Tony Robbins,but if all you're doing is just
going to his events and you'rejust spending lots of money and
(06:53):
you're not actually working onyour business, what is the
point?
I think sometimes people get socaught up in the guru nature of
getting ready to get ready andnot taking action.
Elaine Williams (07:03):
Can I piggyback on that too, Heather?
I'm grateful for every singlecourse I've ever done because
I've learned either this wasamazing or, oh my gosh, this is
the worst thing I've ever, Inever want to be a teacher like
that.
I really always try to seewhat's the lesson, what's the
lesson.
And this is very known.
Peak Potentials was like thefastest growing personal
development company for a longtime.
(07:25):
It really catapulted a lot ofpeople, but they're also a whole
bunch of lawsuits.
That came out about it for lotsand lots of reasons.
And I won't go into the wholething, there was like a three
day basic weekend.
You're looking at money and, Iloved it.
I always ran into people that Iknew from Toastmasters and
landmark, it's like my people Iremember loving it and having
(07:45):
some aha's and I signed up fortrain the trainer and I love
train the trainer and train thetrainer one and two.
And I got some amazing trainingand also just some really
powerful feedback for myself asa speaker trainer, blah, blah,
blah.
But there was a huge gap though.
Each, programs would be like 3,000 for two, it would depend,
but then there was a thingcalled the quantum leap and it
(08:07):
was like 75 K.
And you got to do all theprograms part of this.
And Tony Robbins says this too,of there's jumping, there's
dancing, there's music, there'shigh energy.
So people get used to all thoseendorphins, right?
Seeing the same people and itfeels good, especially if you
used to go clubbing a lot, or Iremember thinking, this is so
(08:27):
fun, but luckily you'd be proudof me, Heather.
I was disciplined.
So I only did a few courses.
I wanted to do the quantum leap,but I knew I don't have, that's
crazy for me where I am rightnow, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah.
So I did train the trainer one.
And then I did a whole bunch ofother things I'm doing comedy.
I'm training as a life coach.
I'm working on my speaking.
I'm, and I had to postpone trainthe trainer too for a while.
(08:50):
And they finally were like,okay, this is the last one we're
doing.
You have to come to LA if youwant to do this.
And I had already paid for it.
I go to LA and there's been likea gap.
Since I've been in thecommunity, right?
I don't know, a year, two,something.
So I'm at train the train, I'mrunning into people and I'm
talking to other people.
And it's always Hey, what haveyou done?
Oh, have you done warrior?
(09:11):
Have you done?
I kept meeting people who werebankrupt, who had lost their
house.
And they were like we're goinginto foreclosure, but we're
really positive about thistransition.
And I remember sitting therethinking, don't, cause I was
like, You know, and I keptthinking, close your mouth,
close your mouth.
And I met several couples whohad done the quantum leap
together, and they had gotten soaddicted to feeling good,
(09:34):
jumping on planes, chargingeverything, saying, okay, I'm
going to manifest this, I'mgoing to do this, I'm going to
do this.
And they had all the visionboards, and they had all the
training, but they had not doneany of the implementation.
Or...
Probably had done very littlebecause the intensity of the
programs.
And so they were writing thehigh of the programs and they
(09:56):
had gone bankrupt.
And I remember thinking, learnfrom this Elaine, learn from
this, don't judge, but learnfrom this.
And I was so grateful that I Hadnot done because, you get
excited in the moment and peopleare running back to the room
and, the head dude, he was avery charismatic guy there were
a lot of things out of integritywith this company.
(10:17):
I'll say and that's all I needto say.
I called them once to tell themabout their real estate guy,
what was going on with him andthey didn't blink an eye and
they kept putting him on thestage.
So I remember once I saw that, Isaid, I'm done.
But I learned so much from thewhole process, but I'll never
forget meeting people who had sobought the drink, the Kool Aid.
(10:40):
They have lost themselves.
They have lost their houses inthe process.
And it was like, Oh my
Heather Zeitzwolfe (10:47):
God.
That happens a lot.
And that happens with peoplethat get invested with,
Elaine Williams (10:52):
Like Tony Robbins.
I met a lot of people from TonyRobbins.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (10:55):
a lot of people want to have that quick
fix And there's some reallyinteresting articles online
about these smaller gurus.
So Tony Robbins is like big,everybody knows his name, but
there are these other gurus thatcome on line and like promise
I'll show you all aboutdropshipping or I'll explain to
you about, these different get,rich schemes
Elaine Williams (11:14):
on Amazon.
you know how much volume youhave to make enough money from
being a bill?
I love affiliate marketing.
I started out as an internetmarketer doing affiliate stuff.
Love it.
But my experience with Amazon,it's like three penny.
You spend so much time andenergy setting things up.
The volume that you have to dois crazy.
And I don't know the lateststuff, but yeah.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (11:34):
like you said it, they were riding that
hype I don't know if you saw thethere was a documentary on Lulu
Roe or something like that.
Elaine Williams (11:42):
Those tights.
Oh God.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (11:44):
And so people were like, they had that
energy of yes, you know, theywere all into it and they were
like, find these leggings.
But all these people weresitting on all this inventory of
leggings in their house theycouldn't unload.
All the
Elaine Williams (11:55):
time with other MLMs.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (11:57):
The data shows that like 99 percent of
the people that are in theseMLMs do not make any money.
In fact, they lose money wherethere's only about 1 percent of
the people who actually do makemoney.
And they're the ones that arelike, at the
Elaine Williams (12:10):
top.
I do want to say in defense,like I do know people that are
breaking even like they love theproducts.
they sell them.
And it covers their use of theproduct.
So I know a lot of people thatdo it like a hobby, but they
call it a business.
And then I know people who'vedone very well in certain
arenas.
And I do think that there aresome companies that do have
(12:31):
integrity.
I don't want to make thisblanket
Heather Zeitzwolfe (12:34):
statement.
Oh yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And
Elaine Williams (12:36):
I think Sometimes giving somebody some
hope is worth a lot of fuckingmoney.
Excuse my French.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And you're in a dead end job.
You're in a dead end marriage orrelationship.
You feel like you cannot getcaught up.
I went to college and this orwhatever.
So sometimes I think givingsomebody some inspiration and
hope to do something different,to stretch.
(12:58):
Sometimes that can be amazing.
It's the bait and switch thatbothers me.
Exactly.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (13:03):
I have friends that do MLMs and they
love the product and, therecould be cosmetics or whatever.
And it could be like, they puton parties, they have fun.
And it's like you said, it'salmost like a hobby business
kind of thing, it's thecompanies I'm talking about
where it's like the whole familyhas been like indoctrinated into
this thing.
And now they're putting theirhouse up for mortgage and then
(13:24):
there's this competition whereit's like, Oh, these people got
a car and there's this weirdthing of like this, fake status
thing going on mean, it goesback to all the way to like
Amway and yes, there are, goodones.
They have good products andpeople, that's fine.
I just don't want people to getcaught up in some kind of
pyramid scheme where they loseeverything,
Elaine Williams (13:42):
What I hear the theme of it is like slowing down
and that's why Heather is sogreat.
I'm so excited to be startingyour program next week.
It's so great when you can havea trusted advisor just help you
with nonjudgment and go, okay,you're having fun selling blah,
blah, blah.
Let's look at.
So you're spending this much amonth on dah, dah, dah, you
(14:05):
know, let's really look at thenumbers so you can just be clear
with yourself.
I know I've, lied to myself.
I'm doing a business and it'slike, well, Elaine, acting, I
love acting.
Did I make money in acting?
I did.
Did I spend a lot more than Imade?
Yeah.
technically I've been aprofessional entertainer my
entire life, but if you lookedat all the classes and the
(14:27):
workshops and the two degrees,I'm sure that would outweigh it.
Now, am I using it in mycoaching?
Absolutely.
I wouldn't change any of that.
Yeah.
But.
I think it's just great to beclear and empowered instead of
lying to yourself.
And, to me, Heather, likeadmitting, you know what, I made
a mistake.
When I, bought this house inPhiladelphia and I was gonna
(14:47):
rehab it and flip it orwhatever, and finally admitting
that it was a huge mistake andfinally letting go after
sleepless nights, thousands andthousands and thousands of
dollars, heroin kids, so muchLife threatening phone calls.
I could go on and on.
It's hard to say, this is myidea.
(15:09):
I had a partner who's da, notthinking he had an agenda, but
finally admitting, I made amistake.
I've got to let this go now.
that takes, it's hard.
and I didn't learn that.
I didn't learn that from myfamily.
I didn't learn that from school.
So I think that's one of thehardest.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (15:27):
yeah.
another thing in defensive, likethe MLMs, like I Googled
business gurus and predominantlythey're men, there's a few like,
Marie Forleo and some otherpeople that are considered
female gurus, but for most part,they're men, women, if they want
to start a business, oftentimesan easy entry is.
Through an MLM, they get exposedto that.
(15:49):
companies oftentimes have greattraining programs for them to
learn how to sell, so it canallow them an easy entryway into
starting a business.
want to be clear that I'm like,I'm separating the ones from
like the ones that are likepredatory just rip every cent
out of you,
Elaine Williams (16:05):
yeah.
And that's great.
That's why it's always good toask people word of mouth and.
If you feel like you want to become an entrepreneur and, you're
looking, or maybe you gotinvited to come to a thing, just
know that Other people haveagendas I feel so silly saying
this, when I was taking my realestate courses and I was
(16:25):
learning all about buy and holdand flipping and selling and I
was so invested.
It never occurred to me that myfriend wanted to make a
commission off of me which is sonaive.
I had several friends and theiragenda was to make their
commission it was not my bestinterest actually to buy any of
(16:46):
the houses that I bought, butwhatever, I own that nobody held
a gun to my head.
I thought it was a good idea atthe time.
And I was invested and I wantedto have a female comedy club for
female comedians.
And that was my vision.
And, it blew up when 2008happened, whatever, but, it
never occurred to me that peoplewho I considered friends.
(17:07):
Their agenda was to make moneyoff of me, and now I feel like
duh, I just, I was new, I was sonaive, I just encourage if
you've, if somebody's watchingthis and you're, you've been
invited to something, yay, gosupport your friend, but just
know sometimes people haveagendas, and it's not always
your fault.
Best intentions.
(17:28):
And that was a really hardlesson for me.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (17:32):
Another thing is if it seems too good to
be true, chances are it is toogood to be true.
Like you can make a million bythe end of the year, or you can
make 20, 000 this month.
Like what?
Some of this stuff just doesn'tadd up.
And, sure there are possibleways of doing it.
But usually there's some kind ofrunway that happens before you
have to put things in place andset things up.
(17:52):
And it's just it doesn'tinstantaneously happen that way.
And just because it happened forsomeone else does not mean that
it's going to happen.
For you either.
Maybe they have connections thatyou don't have, there's, we are
all starting from a differentplace, but there's so
Elaine Williams (18:06):
many
Heather Zeitzwolfe (18:06):
factors.
Yeah.
But one thing I want to talkabout is some of the warning
signs of mind control.
I'm guilty of, if I likesomebody and what they're
saying, I will go down thatrabbit hole and buy all their
books I got into listening toDave Ramsey.
And I took his course on being afinancial coach.
I was looking for a financialcoaching program and I took it.
(18:27):
And there were a few things inthere that was like, seemed a
little bit Christianity kind ofbit and fine with.
I'm nothing against religion.
I'm not necessarily Christian.
I'm spiritual.
And, but, it's like one of thosethings, it's like just in there.
Okay.
It's okay.
But then once I went through theprogram, like every training was
heavy Christianity in there.
(18:48):
So it's okay this is, I guessnot a hundred percent for me,
but I went down to Tennessee.
I went to Their bigheadquarters.
And when I was there I didn'trealize how popular he was.
So When I went to his locationin Tennessee, they were building
another giant, it was a newfacility and they were building
another giant building.
And they were filming his.
(19:09):
Program, but there was like, I'mdebt free, you know, and there's
tons of people.
They're just there to watch.
people make this Pilgrimage togo there and meet him.
And kind of a crazy thing.
And it was cool.
But I didn't really understandhow culty it was yet so I was
down there for the businessboutique it was, seminar or
whatever.
And it was a lot of fun.
(19:29):
But it was in hindsight, when Ilook back at it, very kind of
culty type stuff that they weredoing, and not necessarily like
in a.
Like a horrible way, but theyget you into their world and
then they want you to buy alltheir products.
there was some cult like aspectsto it.
That was like my warning sign.
And then I had some clients thatcame over to me through their
thing.
Some of them resonated with me,but other ones didn't, and it
(19:51):
was like, I could tell that theywere cult-ie like being led they
had no other thoughts of how todo finances, except for what
Dave Ramsey is going to tellthey were just going to follow
that path, and not questionlike, well maybe that doesn't
work exactly for me I know weweren't going to name names, but
I just named Dave Ramsey.
Elaine Williams (20:07):
Here's the thing.
I know he's helped a lot ofpeople.
Yeah.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (20:12):
And I do think he's has a lot of great
things.
Right.
And people just believe in thisone person and that their word
is like, God,
Elaine Williams (20:21):
The whole thing is take what you need and leave
the rest.
Because I used to, I would belike, I'm in.
Oh, there was a guy who's basedin Vegas who took a lot of my
money I learned a lot, it was apainful lesson.
On lots of levels.
for a year I was in and he'slost a ton of followers because
(20:41):
of his lack of integrity.
And it's interesting becausefrom what I know, he doesn't
seem to have a clue why, whichyou'd think you would exit
interview people or something.
But, take what you need andleave the rest.
But one of the things I learnedto ask myself, even when I get
excited is This sounds reallycool.
is this right for me right
Heather Zeitzwolfe (20:59):
now?
That's a great thing to askyourself.
Yeah.
Elaine Williams (21:02):
Speaking of gurus, I love Joe Polish.
I love the guy.
I love him.
I've met him a couple of times.
He's made fun of me in my book.
He was like, really, your mouthis open on the front and the
back, and I was like, it tookyou seven years to write this.
I was like, I couldn't figureout who it was for, but I love
him.
I love what he does withrecovery.
(21:23):
I think he has massiveintegrity.
I just love him and one of mydreams is to be in Genius
Network and right now it doesnot make sense for me to be in
Genius Network.
I could go take out a loan andit's one of my goals.
I'm sure some people might sayit's a little culty because I
know there's a huge, and it's abro, but there's a lot of women
(21:44):
too, but it's very heart center,but I want to be in that
community at least for a yearand experience that.
But right now it does not makesense for lots and lots of
reasons.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (21:54):
a cult wants you to think like them.
They don't want you to think foryourself.
that's the part.
It's you can have these peoplethat inspire you.
They can be gurus and inspireyou.
But at the end of the day, youalso have to be able to make
decisions on your own and feelin integrity with yourself and
not feel like, oh well, theybelieve that.
So, you know what?
I guess I should believe that,even though in my gut, I don't
(22:16):
feel like I should believe that.
I want you to be true to whothey are.
Elaine Williams (22:20):
you know, I'm just going to encourage anybody,
if any of this is resonatingcall Heather, because she is,
she has integrity, she will notjust take your money and she'll
tell you what's really going onif you are confused about your
business or whatever.
And I, highly recommend workingwith her.
She's a friend and a colleague,I want to say something else
(22:40):
because, I grew up.
Very dysfunctional, alcoholic,lots of trauma, drama, whatever.
And one of my fears was that Iwould finally make money and I
would lose it, but I would, andso I knew I wanted to educate
myself.
And so that's one reason I wasdoing millionaire mind and all
these different things.
(23:00):
And because I could not trust myown family, you know, most
people can trust at least oneparent.
Or one sibling and I just, Ididn't have that at the time.
I was looking for somebody tomentor me.
And even if they weren't.
Forever mentors.
They got me to move and did Imake mistakes?
(23:22):
Yes.
And did I give people too muchcredit and power?
Probably.
I'm grateful because, it got meto move because I knew, okay,
I'm waiting tables, I'm runningaround the country speaking, I'm
doing comedy.
I love what I do, but I know Icannot keep this pace.
Forever.
And I don't want to be an 80year old.
You can kiss my grits.
(23:43):
Waitress at Mel's diner
Heather Zeitzwolfe (23:45):
inspiration is so important, to have
somebody that inspires you andIf someone is at their job and
they hate their job and they'rehearing a podcast with someone
speak and they're like, Oh myGod, I want to start following
this person because they inspireme.
I've done the same thing.
I'm like, I listened and then Ihave loved to learn.
Again, it could be another shinyobject.
Like I love to learn so muchthat like, yes, I'll buy this
(24:07):
program because I want to, and Iwill get super, super excited
about it.
The thing is that we getexcited, we get inspired, but
now we have to take action.
I think it's so important towork with someone like you or me
that are coaches that are likegrounded in what we do.
We're not being gurus, you know,we can take whatever.
You've learned from somethingelse, and now let's put it into
(24:28):
work.
Elaine, explain what you do withpeople to help them take it to
the next level.
They learn from the gurus, thenthey come to you.
They want to be great speakers.
They want to be on
Elaine Williams (24:39):
video.
Thank you, Heather.
Thank you for the question.
I just started a new groupprogram, which I just love.
So I have these amazing womenwho do emotional release work.
It's so powerful.
And they both were like, I needto be doing short form video.
I don't know where to start, youknow, and so I love.
Helping women mature spiritualconscious women who are ready to
(25:03):
be seen on a new level.
That's my favorite people towork with.
We started that and captivatethe crowd.
And then I also do one on oneVIP coaching for people who have
big speeches coming up, bigopportunities.
And one of my video clients, Ijust got off a call with her.
I'm helping her as a bonus.
So I'm like, I'm giving her someextra love.
(25:25):
I love helping people growthemselves and their voice so
that they can grow theirbusiness.
Because if you're not visible,if you're not out there speaking
on some platforms, live onvideo, online you're not going
to have a business.
That's just, you Yeah, it'sjust, it's very hard to keep a
business or grow a business.
(25:46):
If you are not out in somecapacity, depending on your
market,
Heather Zeitzwolfe (25:50):
we work directly with our clients.
You can follow guru.
Chances are you're not payingthat person to have one on ones
with you.
If you are, it's going to costyou a fortune.
So usually what happens is youjoin the guru's group and then
one of their.
Employees will coach you or workwith you.
And yes, they've been trained bythat person, but a lot of times
it's not the same kind ofattention.
(26:11):
I want to say like after thegurus.
Do you have any other lastthoughts of like, um, the
blurred lines between selfimprovement and like
brainwashing.
Like it's good to have selfimprovement.
I think that's an importantthing to spend money on is to do
self improvement.
What are your thoughts aroundthat?
This
Elaine Williams (26:28):
is great.
I'm like, can we do a part twowith this?
Because clearly I have a lot tosay if you need filler come.
so I spoke about this guy inVegas who like, I got invited to
his event.
I'd heard about him for years,but felt dubious because even
though I'd heard about him, hewas supposed to be a legend in
the college market.
Nobody in the college marketknew who he was.
So there was like, that was adisconnect.
(26:50):
I go to his thing.
I liked it.
I drink the Kool Aid.
So I'm there.
I have a, the years, like someof it's great.
Some of it's not.
And then in the end, it was verypainful to learn that I'd been
lied to and whatever.
I vowed like I'm taking a break.
That was like 2011, I was reallyover it because I had the peak
(27:11):
potentials thing I studied withDebbie Ford, who I loved her
work did not feel set up.
Felt completely baited andswitched about the training as
well, as opposed to having myown life coaching practice.
you know, There was just a partof me that was like holding.
When I finally was like, okay,it's been a couple of years.
You really, you're in a rutgirl.
(27:32):
I was always, I've never beensomeone to sit around.
Like I was always, I startedasking people that I knew and
trusted.
What's your take on this person?
What's your take on this?
What's your take on this person?
It's just like when I bought mymini Cooper, I did not, you
know, what are you readingonline?
You have no idea if that's aprofessional copywriter
pretending to be Shelly B fromTucson.
(27:53):
So I would go in New York city.
I would walk up to people andgo, excuse me, do you like your
mini Cooper?
What's the maintenance like, howlong have you had it?
I did my own research because Iknew that was a real person with
their family.
Getting out of town on Friday orwhatever.
And so I started asking realpeople instead of read, because
it's just really hard to knowwhat's real online.
(28:15):
And so when I finally pulled theplug and I joined a mastermind
in 2015.
Again, it wasn't some greatthings, some not so great
things, but I learned so muchand I needed a big container to
finally leave my corporate job,whatever.
I don't regret it, even though Ibelieve sometimes we go for one
reason and then we get all theseother things.
(28:36):
I would just say.
Get excited and then have afriend or three that you can
check in with who know you andI'm not talking the yes Friends
because we all have those whoare like you're amazing.
Yes They'll tell you yes.
I'm talking about the friendslike heather who'll go well, I
mean I don't know if that'sreally a good idea for you or
(28:56):
you know what those genes makeyour butt look wider Okay.
Thank you.
Tell me that, Elaine, you've gotbroccoli in your teeth.
That's a true friend to me.
learn from everybody, rememberthat a lot of people have
agendas.
do all the free trainings andthen check in with somebody
before you click to buy whateverit is.
(29:18):
And I've bought a lot of thingsand I love supporting my
girlfriends in business.
I buy things all the time andforget, whatever.
And if you don't have realfriends like that, you can
cultivate that.
And call Heather becauseHeather, we've talked a lot
about me.
You are so good at systems,which is why I'm starting your
program on Monday because I amnot, and I will probably be
(29:41):
cranky and resistant.
Maybe I won't be, but a lot ofpeople like me are creatives and
we're just, we're like systems,you mean like Microsoft like,
can you tell us a little bitabout what
Heather Zeitzwolfe (29:54):
you, yeah, it was actually starting on
Tuesday.
Which is my birthday, we'regoing to be putting in place
some different systems, butgamifying things to make it.
A lot more fun to track thingsin your business.
And I'll be providing uh,worksheets and templates and fun
little interactive type ofactivities to track things.
So it's not just doing things ina spreadsheet.
(30:15):
I love to make things morevisual.
Cause I, to me, that's.
fun.
Not everybody likes to go into aspreadsheet and enter data every
day.
And, that's not always
Elaine Williams (30:24):
not everybody.
Are you kidding?
I break it out into hive.
you know, I've come a long wayif you had told me five years
ago, I would be editing.
And doing some of the detailoriented things that I'm doing
right now, I would have laughedin your face.
So I have matured and worked oncultivating some things.
Now, ultimately, I can't wait tohave a bigger team to pass some
(30:46):
of this back to at the moment.
I'm doing some of it.
But If you are willing to beuncomfortable and if you're
willing to be coached, you canlearn skills that you don't
think you can do.
If I can do it, oh honey child,you can do it.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (31:02):
Yes, totally.
There's going to be no cults orgurus.
And it's funny, I, I looked upthe meaning of cult, but I
didn't look up guru there's somepeople in the business Gary V
what's the ClickFunnel guy.
Russell Brunson.
Yeah, I, I have one of hisbooks, yeah.
So I have three, I think he's.
Elaine Williams (31:19):
I think he's adorable.
He's very, he doesn't likecussing on his stage.
He's very committed to his wifeand his family.
He really is a goofball internetcrazy dude, but in a good way,
I'm not a click funnels personfor lots of reasons, but I know
a lot of people who love hisstuff.
if somebody really resonateswith you, check them but also
(31:40):
keep in touch with your gut.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (31:42):
Yeah, exactly.
And, there is that sort of bro ymarketing kind of guy that guru
like there are definitely likethe male centric gurus and then
the very few female, but there,there are like people like, I
think Tony Robbins is like agood example of crossing both
lines.
Like he's approachable forwomen, you know, he's stands
tall.
And, he doesn't come across tome as like a bro y.
(32:04):
There's a sensitive side to him.
I don't know.
Like he's strong,
Elaine Williams (32:07):
but there is a, yeah.
And, another guy that I reallyloved learning from I was in his
world for two years.
I had heard of him.
And then I met somebody who waslike, I'm going to the thing.
Are you going?
And I was like, oh my gosh, Ijust.
Got a free ticket, there are alot of guys who follow him, it's
(32:27):
interesting because I know quitea few women who've tried his
particular formula and didn'texactly work for them.
But again, you never knowexactly what was the execution
and the market and themessaging.
There's a lot of factors, justlike a movie.
It's really hard to make a goodmovie because there's so many
places you can make it bad.
Right.
But take what you need and leavethe rest it's a journey,
Heather Zeitzwolfe (32:50):
the gurus, I mean, that's just, semantics.
We don't, I don't know whatexactly what the definition for
a guru is.
We know what the real guru is,but as far as like a business
guru, but I mean, you could saylike.
oprah Winfrey was a guru or sheis a guru, she had a, like a
level of influence.
If Oprah said to get somethinglike read this book, people are
going to do it, it's but shewasn't culty about it.
Like it wasn't a cult, but itwas like, but she has a level of
(33:13):
influence.
That's like remarkable, and soas business owners, we want to
have influence.
We just don't, we want to do itin an ethical way.
that's the the difference.
Elaine Williams (33:22):
And here's what I want to say about Oprah.
She has evolved clearly.
She has lived her life publiclyand made some huge mistakes and
owned them and cleaned it up andrebooted.
She made a big mistake with herschool in South Africa for a
while when she went on her ownwith her own, that it was
tanking one of the reasons Istill love her is, she admits
(33:46):
things and course corrects andwhatever, and I love how much
she gives back and, so it's justgreat to look at, I guess one of
the thing we probably should doa part two is, sometimes people.
I've seen a lot of people comeand go, right?
I've seen people have a superhot program and for whatever
reason they're getting a lot ofvisibility or whatever and then
(34:07):
they disappear.
And that's okay.
Maybe that's their path.
Yeah, just check everybody out,read the reviews, if you're
contemplating joining a programor working with a coach, it is
absolutely appropriate to askfor you a reference reference.
Run.
Run seriously, because I know Ihave clients, Heather's one of
(34:30):
them, but I know I have peoplethat I can say, I just got two
new clients because of areference, because I delivered
value and I care and I, give alot and I'm happy to do that,
it's always okay to say, I'm notsure.
Let me think about it.
I don't know.
When you're in the salesconversation, they may not like
that, but it's you and yourmoney.
it's absolutely okay to say, youknow what I I'd like to talk to
(34:52):
some other people and who'vebeen in the program.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (34:54):
that's a really good tip.
Cause testimonials on a websiteis one thing, but to actually
talk to somebody and find outis.
completely different.
absolutely.
Yeah, that's a good tip., oh, Idid have a thought that kind of
ran through my brain earlierbecause we've been talking about
don't drink the Kool Aid that'sfrom Jim Jones.
Yeah, in the 70s.
a mass suicide.
Terrible.
But you know the thing about JimJones's.
(35:16):
Yeah.
If you follow his history in thebeginning, he was actually doing
great things in the community.
I think it was in San Francisco,he brought together like the
black and white communities andhe was helping the poor and we
was doing all these greatthings.
I think the drugs and thecontrolling of women came later.
So we started off this greatperson.
It could be that some of thesepeople just become megalomaniacs
(35:38):
over time.
So they may start out a great,and then it's they turn into a
different person.
You never know.
Elaine Williams (35:44):
And, another person, another person who I
really admire from afar.
is Brendan Bouchard.
I have a bunch of his books.
I have been to one of hisevents.
I came late because I had aspeaking gig.
Go figure.
But I was blown away at thecommunity, the involvement and
he's such a goofy white guy.
People say I remind them of him,which I think is a huge
(36:06):
compliment.
But anyway, so he's.
Grown, grown, grown, Grown,grown, right?
So now he travels with likesecurity and, some people are
like, Whoa.
And I've heard different thingsabout some of his trainings,
whatever, but you never know isthat his egomaniac or did he
have some bad stuff happen?
You never know what's reallygoing on in somebody's life.
(36:28):
So again, take what you need,leave the rest, ask yourself, is
this something I need right now?
Heather Zeitzwolfe (36:35):
And if they're telling you that you
need to sell all your cars andsend them the money, run.
Elaine Williams (36:40):
Or if you're, at an event and they're bragging
that they just signed somebodyup, who's homeless and living in
her car, you might not want todo business with people like
that.
Yeah.
I've seen that happen.
I've seen that happen wheresomebody was like, Oh my God, I
didn't know how I was going todo it.
And I've been living in my carand somebody said they would
give me the down posit.
(37:00):
And so I'm, I signed up andthen, and we're all like, Okay.
And it's like a 10, 12, 000program.
And then the very next day, theperson holding the event talked
about how they take all thepeople to court if they break
their contract and how brutalthey are.
And I remember just thinking, Ihave to leave.
I can't be a part of this.
(37:21):
This is against my heart, here'sthe thing.
Everybody has a right to runtheir business.
so I just said, okay, I'm outand I'm not going to work with
this person.
And I know tons of people who'vestarted to work with this person
and then gotten out of it orwhatever.
But it's okay, that's how theyrun their business.
Does not vibe with me, whatever,take it all with a big grain of
(37:42):
salt and just call Heather.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (37:44):
Yeah, take what you need and then leave and
just always think for yourself.
encourage people to Thinkcritically about things like
really examine it and don't justtake it at face value.
And especially today's worldwhere now we can create
something AI.
Like now, when I looked at aphotograph, I'm like, is this
even real?
I'm like, you were talking aboutthat
Elaine Williams (38:03):
when you were watching TV the other night, we
were like, is that even theperson or is that AI version of
the person?
It's so hard to know.
Yeah.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (38:11):
Yeah.
I always want people to thinkwith a, critical mind, our
school system teaches us that wehave to have the right answer.
I love school.
I got A's, you know, and, it'svery regimented and I'm not, I
think school is very important,but I think also thinking for
yourself is super important.
And speaking out there, I wantpeople to have the guts to raise
their hand and be like, no, Idon't agree with that,
Elaine Williams (38:32):
when I was taking my real estate courses,
this is like 2008 7 2007.
And my teacher would say, I'mtrying to teach you critical
thinking and I literally waslike, what, I had never
remembered hearing that termbefore, and I had studied drama
and singing and dancing and,theory, but I don't remember
(38:52):
thinking a deal through orlooking at the numbers and so
I'm grateful for all thattraining, We'll have to do a
part two cause I know people areprobably like, oh my God, this
is so much, but yeah, Heather,this has been a blast.
And I encourage everybody tofollow their dreams, but just be
smart about it and it's okay togo slow,
Heather Zeitzwolfe (39:12):
slow and steady.
Yeah the silver bullet that'sgoing to make it all great,
especially in six weeks, 10weeks, or you're supposed to go
to a three day conference andlike, yes, maybe you will be
transformed, but sometimes thatthere's that honeymoon period
and then it deflates and nowyou're like well, now what,
Elaine Williams (39:28):
you need structure, a coach.
And implementation, which is Icall it, it's not the sexy stuff
sitting in home and editing isnot sexy, like sitting there,
spreadsheet, whatever we'regoing to be doing next week, not
sexy, but if you gamify it, I'llcome play.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (39:47):
And accountability.
So the gurus are, they're notgoing to give you
accountability.
Not at that level.
You need Interaction.
Real interaction.
Okay.
Awesome, Elaine.
Thank you so much.
Elaine Williams (39:56):
Okay.
All right.
Thanks, Heather.
Love you.
Hey everyone.
(00:00):
This is Heather Zeitzwolfe, andyou're listening to Get Radical
With Your Business.
I know it's been a while sinceI've put out a podcast episode.
Oh my God.
But I'm back again.
And I'm with my friend, ElaineWilliams, who is a speech and
video coach.
We are talking about businesscults gurus and the blurred
(00:24):
lines between.
Self-improvement and when itstarts to be like brainwashing,
I hope you enjoy thisconversation and it makes you
think about some of the peoplethat you follow.
Some of the influencers are youfollowing them at a cult-like
status?
(00:44):
Or are you questioning what theytell you?
It's so important for us tothink for ourselves.
We can learn from people.
I love to follow people.
I learned from people all thetime.
I read tons and tons of books.
I'm a lifelong learner.
But I also want to keep an openmind to the possibilities they
don't have all the answers.
Maybe doesn't resonate with meand I don't blindly follow
(01:07):
somebody because they tell methis is the way.
Always keep an open mind here ismy conversation with Elaine
Williams about breaking free.
Building an authentic businessbeyond the cults and gurus.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (01:27):
I started thinking about this Elaine how
I've fallen down the guru trapand I have this thing that
sometimes things feel like acult, and I will step back
because I'm like, this feelslike a cult, and and so I did a
little bit.
I have been in a few of those.
there's many things that can bebusiness cults.
It can be like MLMs areconsidered sometimes like a cult
(01:48):
corporations can be like a cult.
We're going to talk about allthese different things.
And I've.
experimented with, gurus andthings like that.
And you spend money and thenafterwards, you're like what was
that about?
What is your experience, Elaine?
What have you done
Elaine Williams (02:03):
over the years?
How long do you have, sister?
I'm going to change the namesbecause.
I don't want to disparageanybody, but if, if anyone is
curious or horrified feel freeto reach out to me, but I'm not
going to say the names, I hadsome friends that were in this
energy guy stuff had known themfor a long time and they were
(02:24):
both like glowing and happy andlean.
And I thought, wow, and I waspretty burnt at the time I was
working 50, 60 hour weeks and.
Hiatus, like something's got togive, I got it.
And I joined the thing.
even though I love the energywork about it and I love the
community, what always was weirdwas there was like such a
(02:44):
reverence for the guy let's justcall him Dr.
Gary.
they would be like, it's Dr.
G.
It's Dr.
Gary.
Dr.
Gary.
Oh, Dr.
Gary.
And don't get me wrong.
I love teachers.
I would be dead if I hadn't hadsome amazing teachers and
mentors.
Like I'm a huge fan.
I've been a coach since forever.
Before I was a coach when peoplethought that meant like you
(03:07):
coach soccer.
I was a coach before there wereso many coaches.
I was studying with Debbie Fordin 2004.
And so I've been around theblock a lot.
even though I loved the energyof it and I knew that it was
healing me in some ways, therewas always a part of me My gut
was always like, of the waypeople spoke about the head guy.
(03:31):
And it was always like, Oh, Ooh.
I always thought.
I don't want to get dependent onone person.
whatever your religion is or notyou have meditation teachers
they're not like, you mustfollow me.
They're like, no, you got tokeep meditating and go to some
yoga and get off the coffee orwhatever.
Right.
anyway, so I'm grateful.
So anyway, I was in this work, Iwould still go see this person.
(03:53):
I know that it helped me.
I was always a little bit like,and then the person itself, he
would like miss calls.
He would reschedule.
And then he'd yell at you.
I remember one time I had a callthat I paid for and scheduled.
And he was like, I'm runninglate.
I'm running late.
I'm running late.
So we played, we did that for45, 50 minutes.
(04:15):
And then he was like, I'm goingto have to reschedule.
And so the next day when we'reon that call, he's like, why are
you driving right now?
This is your call.
And I was like, because we hadto reschedule because of you,
anyway, so I'm so grateful.
I always had one foot out and AAsays, take what you need, leave
the rest.
long story short.
I'm in and out and there wereall these volunteers.
(04:36):
that's always a little bit of ared flag too, because they would
look, I remember I would go tothese events and they would look
exhausted.
And I used to think, aren't theysupposed to be like.
Lift it up from being in thisenergy bottom line, I go and I
have like my final treatmentwith this person who tells me,
okay, you got to get take anuber because you couldn't drive
(04:59):
after it was like a heavy,intense mistake.
Size your cupping.
It was all this.
It was great.
Great work.
The work itself was great.
He's like, take an Uber and meetme over there.
You got to get over to thisthing.
So I remember like busting myass out of the Airbnb to take an
Uber.
And then I sat there waiting inhis hallway for three hours.
(05:20):
And when he finally strolled up,he had been to Whole Foods.
And I remember just thinking,was this a test?
Did I misunderstand?
After that whole experience, Ijust took a step back because I
was like, my gut was just like,something is not right.
And then come to find out, ayear and a half later, or,
recently my friends said, Oh myGod, all this stuff came out
(05:42):
about Dr.
Gary.
And it turns out he'd beenmisusing his power sexually, did
it, all these different thingsand it all came out and he
wouldn't take responsibility forit.
And my friend called me and shesaid, I want to acknowledge you
because it was very cult likeand you knew something was off
and then you took yourself out.
(06:02):
So I really want to acknowledgeyou for that.
And I'm sharing that not thatI'm so great, but as a 55 year
old business woman, I've had toretrain myself to listen to my
gut because there were manytimes I did not.
And so I'm just going toencourage anybody.
Take what you need and leave therest.
And if you ever felt like thingsare too weird or too intense, or
(06:23):
it just feels off, it's okay tostep back, go for a walk, say,
you know what?
I don't know if I can come tothe conference.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (06:31):
You could invest in a lot of these gurus,
spend a lot of money and feel,you're so invested that you
don't want to walk away.
But if it doesn't feel right,it's okay to walk away.
It's okay to make mistakes inyour business.
I think like a lot of thesebusiness gurus, there's a lot of
great things about Tony Robbins,but if all you're doing is just
going to his events and you'rejust spending lots of money and
(06:53):
you're not actually working onyour business, what is the
point?
I think sometimes people get socaught up in the guru nature of
getting ready to get ready andnot taking action.
Elaine Williams (07:03):
Can I piggyback on that too, Heather?
I'm grateful for every singlecourse I've ever done because
I've learned either this wasamazing or, oh my gosh, this is
the worst thing I've ever, Inever want to be a teacher like
that.
I really always try to seewhat's the lesson, what's the
lesson.
And this is very known.
Peak Potentials was like thefastest growing personal
development company for a longtime.
(07:25):
It really catapulted a lot ofpeople, but they're also a whole
bunch of lawsuits.
That came out about it for lotsand lots of reasons.
And I won't go into the wholething, there was like a three
day basic weekend.
You're looking at money and, Iloved it.
I always ran into people that Iknew from Toastmasters and
landmark, it's like my people Iremember loving it and having
(07:45):
some aha's and I signed up fortrain the trainer and I love
train the trainer and train thetrainer one and two.
And I got some amazing trainingand also just some really
powerful feedback for myself asa speaker trainer, blah, blah,
blah.
But there was a huge gap though.
Each, programs would be like 3,000 for two, it would depend,
but then there was a thingcalled the quantum leap and it
(08:07):
was like 75 K.
And you got to do all theprograms part of this.
And Tony Robbins says this too,of there's jumping, there's
dancing, there's music, there'shigh energy.
So people get used to all thoseendorphins, right?
Seeing the same people and itfeels good, especially if you
used to go clubbing a lot, or Iremember thinking, this is so
(08:27):
fun, but luckily you'd be proudof me, Heather.
I was disciplined.
So I only did a few courses.
I wanted to do the quantum leap,but I knew I don't have, that's
crazy for me where I am rightnow, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah.
So I did train the trainer one.
And then I did a whole bunch ofother things I'm doing comedy.
I'm training as a life coach.
I'm working on my speaking.
I'm, and I had to postpone trainthe trainer too for a while.
(08:50):
And they finally were like,okay, this is the last one we're
doing.
You have to come to LA if youwant to do this.
And I had already paid for it.
I go to LA and there's been likea gap.
Since I've been in thecommunity, right?
I don't know, a year, two,something.
So I'm at train the train, I'mrunning into people and I'm
talking to other people.
And it's always Hey, what haveyou done?
Oh, have you done warrior?
(09:11):
Have you done?
I kept meeting people who werebankrupt, who had lost their
house.
And they were like we're goinginto foreclosure, but we're
really positive about thistransition.
And I remember sitting therethinking, don't, cause I was
like, You know, and I keptthinking, close your mouth,
close your mouth.
And I met several couples whohad done the quantum leap
together, and they had gotten soaddicted to feeling good,
(09:34):
jumping on planes, chargingeverything, saying, okay, I'm
going to manifest this, I'mgoing to do this, I'm going to
do this.
And they had all the visionboards, and they had all the
training, but they had not doneany of the implementation.
Or...
Probably had done very littlebecause the intensity of the
programs.
And so they were writing thehigh of the programs and they
(09:56):
had gone bankrupt.
And I remember thinking, learnfrom this Elaine, learn from
this, don't judge, but learnfrom this.
And I was so grateful that I Hadnot done because, you get
excited in the moment and peopleare running back to the room
and, the head dude, he was avery charismatic guy there were
a lot of things out of integritywith this company.
(10:17):
I'll say and that's all I needto say.
I called them once to tell themabout their real estate guy,
what was going on with him andthey didn't blink an eye and
they kept putting him on thestage.
So I remember once I saw that, Isaid, I'm done.
But I learned so much from thewhole process, but I'll never
forget meeting people who had sobought the drink, the Kool Aid.
(10:40):
They have lost themselves.
They have lost their houses inthe process.
And it was like, Oh my
Heather Zeitzwolfe (10:47):
God.
That happens a lot.
And that happens with peoplethat get invested with,
Elaine Williams (10:52):
Like Tony Robbins.
I met a lot of people from TonyRobbins.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (10:55):
a lot of people want to have that quick
fix And there's some reallyinteresting articles online
about these smaller gurus.
So Tony Robbins is like big,everybody knows his name, but
there are these other gurus thatcome on line and like promise
I'll show you all aboutdropshipping or I'll explain to
you about, these different get,rich schemes
Elaine Williams (11:14):
on Amazon.
you know how much volume youhave to make enough money from
being a bill?
I love affiliate marketing.
I started out as an internetmarketer doing affiliate stuff.
Love it.
But my experience with Amazon,it's like three penny.
You spend so much time andenergy setting things up.
The volume that you have to dois crazy.
And I don't know the lateststuff, but yeah.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (11:34):
like you said it, they were riding that
hype I don't know if you saw thethere was a documentary on Lulu
Roe or something like that.
Elaine Williams (11:42):
Those tights.
Oh God.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (11:44):
And so people were like, they had that
energy of yes, you know, theywere all into it and they were
like, find these leggings.
But all these people weresitting on all this inventory of
leggings in their house theycouldn't unload.
All the
Elaine Williams (11:55):
time with other MLMs.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (11:57):
The data shows that like 99 percent of
the people that are in theseMLMs do not make any money.
In fact, they lose money wherethere's only about 1 percent of
the people who actually do makemoney.
And they're the ones that arelike, at the
Elaine Williams (12:10):
top.
I do want to say in defense,like I do know people that are
breaking even like they love theproducts.
they sell them.
And it covers their use of theproduct.
So I know a lot of people thatdo it like a hobby, but they
call it a business.
And then I know people who'vedone very well in certain
arenas.
And I do think that there aresome companies that do have
(12:31):
integrity.
I don't want to make thisblanket
Heather Zeitzwolfe (12:34):
statement.
Oh yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And
Elaine Williams (12:36):
I think Sometimes giving somebody some
hope is worth a lot of fuckingmoney.
Excuse my French.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And you're in a dead end job.
You're in a dead end marriage orrelationship.
You feel like you cannot getcaught up.
I went to college and this orwhatever.
So sometimes I think givingsomebody some inspiration and
hope to do something different,to stretch.
(12:58):
Sometimes that can be amazing.
It's the bait and switch thatbothers me.
Exactly.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (13:03):
I have friends that do MLMs and they
love the product and, therecould be cosmetics or whatever.
And it could be like, they puton parties, they have fun.
And it's like you said, it'salmost like a hobby business
kind of thing, it's thecompanies I'm talking about
where it's like the whole familyhas been like indoctrinated into
this thing.
And now they're putting theirhouse up for mortgage and then
(13:24):
there's this competition whereit's like, Oh, these people got
a car and there's this weirdthing of like this, fake status
thing going on mean, it goesback to all the way to like
Amway and yes, there are, goodones.
They have good products andpeople, that's fine.
I just don't want people to getcaught up in some kind of
pyramid scheme where they loseeverything,
Elaine Williams (13:42):
What I hear the theme of it is like slowing down
and that's why Heather is sogreat.
I'm so excited to be startingyour program next week.
It's so great when you can havea trusted advisor just help you
with nonjudgment and go, okay,you're having fun selling blah,
blah, blah.
Let's look at.
So you're spending this much amonth on dah, dah, dah, you
(14:05):
know, let's really look at thenumbers so you can just be clear
with yourself.
I know I've, lied to myself.
I'm doing a business and it'slike, well, Elaine, acting, I
love acting.
Did I make money in acting?
I did.
Did I spend a lot more than Imade?
Yeah.
technically I've been aprofessional entertainer my
entire life, but if you lookedat all the classes and the
(14:27):
workshops and the two degrees,I'm sure that would outweigh it.
Now, am I using it in mycoaching?
Absolutely.
I wouldn't change any of that.
Yeah.
But.
I think it's just great to beclear and empowered instead of
lying to yourself.
And, to me, Heather, likeadmitting, you know what, I made
a mistake.
When I, bought this house inPhiladelphia and I was gonna
(14:47):
rehab it and flip it orwhatever, and finally admitting
that it was a huge mistake andfinally letting go after
sleepless nights, thousands andthousands and thousands of
dollars, heroin kids, so muchLife threatening phone calls.
I could go on and on.
It's hard to say, this is myidea.
(15:09):
I had a partner who's da, notthinking he had an agenda, but
finally admitting, I made amistake.
I've got to let this go now.
that takes, it's hard.
and I didn't learn that.
I didn't learn that from myfamily.
I didn't learn that from school.
So I think that's one of thehardest.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (15:27):
yeah.
another thing in defensive, likethe MLMs, like I Googled
business gurus and predominantlythey're men, there's a few like,
Marie Forleo and some otherpeople that are considered
female gurus, but for most part,they're men, women, if they want
to start a business, oftentimesan easy entry is.
Through an MLM, they get exposedto that.
(15:49):
companies oftentimes have greattraining programs for them to
learn how to sell, so it canallow them an easy entryway into
starting a business.
want to be clear that I'm like,I'm separating the ones from
like the ones that are likepredatory just rip every cent
out of you,
Elaine Williams (16:05):
yeah.
And that's great.
That's why it's always good toask people word of mouth and.
If you feel like you want to become an entrepreneur and, you're
looking, or maybe you gotinvited to come to a thing, just
know that Other people haveagendas I feel so silly saying
this, when I was taking my realestate courses and I was
(16:25):
learning all about buy and holdand flipping and selling and I
was so invested.
It never occurred to me that myfriend wanted to make a
commission off of me which is sonaive.
I had several friends and theiragenda was to make their
commission it was not my bestinterest actually to buy any of
(16:46):
the houses that I bought, butwhatever, I own that nobody held
a gun to my head.
I thought it was a good idea atthe time.
And I was invested and I wantedto have a female comedy club for
female comedians.
And that was my vision.
And, it blew up when 2008happened, whatever, but, it
never occurred to me that peoplewho I considered friends.
(17:07):
Their agenda was to make moneyoff of me, and now I feel like
duh, I just, I was new, I was sonaive, I just encourage if
you've, if somebody's watchingthis and you're, you've been
invited to something, yay, gosupport your friend, but just
know sometimes people haveagendas, and it's not always
your fault.
Best intentions.
(17:28):
And that was a really hardlesson for me.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (17:32):
Another thing is if it seems too good to
be true, chances are it is toogood to be true.
Like you can make a million bythe end of the year, or you can
make 20, 000 this month.
Like what?
Some of this stuff just doesn'tadd up.
And, sure there are possibleways of doing it.
But usually there's some kind ofrunway that happens before you
have to put things in place andset things up.
(17:52):
And it's just it doesn'tinstantaneously happen that way.
And just because it happened forsomeone else does not mean that
it's going to happen.
For you either.
Maybe they have connections thatyou don't have, there's, we are
all starting from a differentplace, but there's so
Elaine Williams (18:06):
many
Heather Zeitzwolfe (18:06):
factors.
Yeah.
But one thing I want to talkabout is some of the warning
signs of mind control.
I'm guilty of, if I likesomebody and what they're
saying, I will go down thatrabbit hole and buy all their
books I got into listening toDave Ramsey.
And I took his course on being afinancial coach.
I was looking for a financialcoaching program and I took it.
(18:27):
And there were a few things inthere that was like, seemed a
little bit Christianity kind ofbit and fine with.
I'm nothing against religion.
I'm not necessarily Christian.
I'm spiritual.
And, but, it's like one of thosethings, it's like just in there.
Okay.
It's okay.
But then once I went through theprogram, like every training was
heavy Christianity in there.
(18:48):
So it's okay this is, I guessnot a hundred percent for me,
but I went down to Tennessee.
I went to Their bigheadquarters.
And when I was there I didn'trealize how popular he was.
So When I went to his locationin Tennessee, they were building
another giant, it was a newfacility and they were building
another giant building.
And they were filming his.
(19:09):
Program, but there was like, I'mdebt free, you know, and there's
tons of people.
They're just there to watch.
people make this Pilgrimage togo there and meet him.
And kind of a crazy thing.
And it was cool.
But I didn't really understandhow culty it was yet so I was
down there for the businessboutique it was, seminar or
whatever.
And it was a lot of fun.
(19:29):
But it was in hindsight, when Ilook back at it, very kind of
culty type stuff that they weredoing, and not necessarily like
in a.
Like a horrible way, but theyget you into their world and
then they want you to buy alltheir products.
there was some cult like aspectsto it.
That was like my warning sign.
And then I had some clients thatcame over to me through their
thing.
Some of them resonated with me,but other ones didn't, and it
(19:51):
was like, I could tell that theywere cult-ie like being led they
had no other thoughts of how todo finances, except for what
Dave Ramsey is going to tellthey were just going to follow
that path, and not questionlike, well maybe that doesn't
work exactly for me I know weweren't going to name names, but
I just named Dave Ramsey.
Elaine Williams (20:07):
Here's the thing.
I know he's helped a lot ofpeople.
Yeah.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (20:12):
And I do think he's has a lot of great
things.
Right.
And people just believe in thisone person and that their word
is like, God,
Elaine Williams (20:21):
The whole thing is take what you need and leave
the rest.
Because I used to, I would belike, I'm in.
Oh, there was a guy who's basedin Vegas who took a lot of my
money I learned a lot, it was apainful lesson.
On lots of levels.
for a year I was in and he'slost a ton of followers because
(20:41):
of his lack of integrity.
And it's interesting becausefrom what I know, he doesn't
seem to have a clue why, whichyou'd think you would exit
interview people or something.
But, take what you need andleave the rest.
But one of the things I learnedto ask myself, even when I get
excited is This sounds reallycool.
is this right for me right
Heather Zeitzwolfe (20:59):
now?
That's a great thing to askyourself.
Yeah.
Elaine Williams (21:02):
Speaking of gurus, I love Joe Polish.
I love the guy.
I love him.
I've met him a couple of times.
He's made fun of me in my book.
He was like, really, your mouthis open on the front and the
back, and I was like, it tookyou seven years to write this.
I was like, I couldn't figureout who it was for, but I love
him.
I love what he does withrecovery.
(21:23):
I think he has massiveintegrity.
I just love him and one of mydreams is to be in Genius
Network and right now it doesnot make sense for me to be in
Genius Network.
I could go take out a loan andit's one of my goals.
I'm sure some people might sayit's a little culty because I
know there's a huge, and it's abro, but there's a lot of women
(21:44):
too, but it's very heart center,but I want to be in that
community at least for a yearand experience that.
But right now it does not makesense for lots and lots of
reasons.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (21:54):
a cult wants you to think like them.
They don't want you to think foryourself.
that's the part.
It's you can have these peoplethat inspire you.
They can be gurus and inspireyou.
But at the end of the day, youalso have to be able to make
decisions on your own and feelin integrity with yourself and
not feel like, oh well, theybelieve that.
So, you know what?
I guess I should believe that,even though in my gut, I don't
(22:16):
feel like I should believe that.
I want you to be true to whothey are.
Elaine Williams (22:20):
you know, I'm just going to encourage anybody,
if any of this is resonatingcall Heather, because she is,
she has integrity, she will notjust take your money and she'll
tell you what's really going onif you are confused about your
business or whatever.
And I, highly recommend workingwith her.
She's a friend and a colleague,I want to say something else
(22:40):
because, I grew up.
Very dysfunctional, alcoholic,lots of trauma, drama, whatever.
And one of my fears was that Iwould finally make money and I
would lose it, but I would, andso I knew I wanted to educate
myself.
And so that's one reason I wasdoing millionaire mind and all
these different things.
(23:00):
And because I could not trust myown family, you know, most
people can trust at least oneparent.
Or one sibling and I just, Ididn't have that at the time.
I was looking for somebody tomentor me.
And even if they weren't.
Forever mentors.
They got me to move and did Imake mistakes?
(23:22):
Yes.
And did I give people too muchcredit and power?
Probably.
I'm grateful because, it got meto move because I knew, okay,
I'm waiting tables, I'm runningaround the country speaking, I'm
doing comedy.
I love what I do, but I know Icannot keep this pace.
Forever.
And I don't want to be an 80year old.
You can kiss my grits.
(23:43):
Waitress at Mel's diner
Heather Zeitzwolfe (23:45):
inspiration is so important, to have
somebody that inspires you andIf someone is at their job and
they hate their job and they'rehearing a podcast with someone
speak and they're like, Oh myGod, I want to start following
this person because they inspireme.
I've done the same thing.
I'm like, I listened and then Ihave loved to learn.
Again, it could be another shinyobject.
Like I love to learn so muchthat like, yes, I'll buy this
(24:07):
program because I want to, and Iwill get super, super excited
about it.
The thing is that we getexcited, we get inspired, but
now we have to take action.
I think it's so important towork with someone like you or me
that are coaches that are likegrounded in what we do.
We're not being gurus, you know,we can take whatever.
You've learned from somethingelse, and now let's put it into
(24:28):
work.
Elaine, explain what you do withpeople to help them take it to
the next level.
They learn from the gurus, thenthey come to you.
They want to be great speakers.
They want to be on
Elaine Williams (24:39):
video.
Thank you, Heather.
Thank you for the question.
I just started a new groupprogram, which I just love.
So I have these amazing womenwho do emotional release work.
It's so powerful.
And they both were like, I needto be doing short form video.
I don't know where to start, youknow, and so I love.
Helping women mature spiritualconscious women who are ready to
(25:03):
be seen on a new level.
That's my favorite people towork with.
We started that and captivatethe crowd.
And then I also do one on oneVIP coaching for people who have
big speeches coming up, bigopportunities.
And one of my video clients, Ijust got off a call with her.
I'm helping her as a bonus.
So I'm like, I'm giving her someextra love.
(25:25):
I love helping people growthemselves and their voice so
that they can grow theirbusiness.
Because if you're not visible,if you're not out there speaking
on some platforms, live onvideo, online you're not going
to have a business.
That's just, you Yeah, it'sjust, it's very hard to keep a
business or grow a business.
(25:46):
If you are not out in somecapacity, depending on your
market,
Heather Zeitzwolfe (25:50):
we work directly with our clients.
You can follow guru.
Chances are you're not payingthat person to have one on ones
with you.
If you are, it's going to costyou a fortune.
So usually what happens is youjoin the guru's group and then
one of their.
Employees will coach you or workwith you.
And yes, they've been trained bythat person, but a lot of times
it's not the same kind ofattention.
(26:11):
I want to say like after thegurus.
Do you have any other lastthoughts of like, um, the
blurred lines between selfimprovement and like
brainwashing.
Like it's good to have selfimprovement.
I think that's an importantthing to spend money on is to do
self improvement.
What are your thoughts aroundthat?
This
Elaine Williams (26:28):
is great.
I'm like, can we do a part twowith this?
Because clearly I have a lot tosay if you need filler come.
so I spoke about this guy inVegas who like, I got invited to
his event.
I'd heard about him for years,but felt dubious because even
though I'd heard about him, hewas supposed to be a legend in
the college market.
Nobody in the college marketknew who he was.
So there was like, that was adisconnect.
(26:50):
I go to his thing.
I liked it.
I drink the Kool Aid.
So I'm there.
I have a, the years, like someof it's great.
Some of it's not.
And then in the end, it was verypainful to learn that I'd been
lied to and whatever.
I vowed like I'm taking a break.
That was like 2011, I was reallyover it because I had the peak
(27:11):
potentials thing I studied withDebbie Ford, who I loved her
work did not feel set up.
Felt completely baited andswitched about the training as
well, as opposed to having myown life coaching practice.
you know, There was just a partof me that was like holding.
When I finally was like, okay,it's been a couple of years.
You really, you're in a rutgirl.
(27:32):
I was always, I've never beensomeone to sit around.
Like I was always, I startedasking people that I knew and
trusted.
What's your take on this person?
What's your take on this?
What's your take on this person?
It's just like when I bought mymini Cooper, I did not, you
know, what are you readingonline?
You have no idea if that's aprofessional copywriter
pretending to be Shelly B fromTucson.
(27:53):
So I would go in New York city.
I would walk up to people andgo, excuse me, do you like your
mini Cooper?
What's the maintenance like, howlong have you had it?
I did my own research because Iknew that was a real person with
their family.
Getting out of town on Friday orwhatever.
And so I started asking realpeople instead of read, because
it's just really hard to knowwhat's real online.
(28:15):
And so when I finally pulled theplug and I joined a mastermind
in 2015.
Again, it wasn't some greatthings, some not so great
things, but I learned so muchand I needed a big container to
finally leave my corporate job,whatever.
I don't regret it, even though Ibelieve sometimes we go for one
reason and then we get all theseother things.
(28:36):
I would just say.
Get excited and then have afriend or three that you can
check in with who know you andI'm not talking the yes Friends
because we all have those whoare like you're amazing.
Yes They'll tell you yes.
I'm talking about the friendslike heather who'll go well, I
mean I don't know if that'sreally a good idea for you or
(28:56):
you know what those genes makeyour butt look wider Okay.
Thank you.
Tell me that, Elaine, you've gotbroccoli in your teeth.
That's a true friend to me.
learn from everybody, rememberthat a lot of people have
agendas.
do all the free trainings andthen check in with somebody
before you click to buy whateverit is.
(29:18):
And I've bought a lot of thingsand I love supporting my
girlfriends in business.
I buy things all the time andforget, whatever.
And if you don't have realfriends like that, you can
cultivate that.
And call Heather becauseHeather, we've talked a lot
about me.
You are so good at systems,which is why I'm starting your
program on Monday because I amnot, and I will probably be
(29:41):
cranky and resistant.
Maybe I won't be, but a lot ofpeople like me are creatives and
we're just, we're like systems,you mean like Microsoft like,
can you tell us a little bitabout what
Heather Zeitzwolfe (29:54):
you, yeah, it was actually starting on
Tuesday.
Which is my birthday, we'regoing to be putting in place
some different systems, butgamifying things to make it.
A lot more fun to track thingsin your business.
And I'll be providing uh,worksheets and templates and fun
little interactive type ofactivities to track things.
So it's not just doing things ina spreadsheet.
(30:15):
I love to make things morevisual.
Cause I, to me, that's.
fun.
Not everybody likes to go into aspreadsheet and enter data every
day.
And, that's not always
Elaine Williams (30:24):
not everybody.
Are you kidding?
I break it out into hive.
you know, I've come a long wayif you had told me five years
ago, I would be editing.
And doing some of the detailoriented things that I'm doing
right now, I would have laughedin your face.
So I have matured and worked oncultivating some things.
Now, ultimately, I can't wait tohave a bigger team to pass some
(30:46):
of this back to at the moment.
I'm doing some of it.
But If you are willing to beuncomfortable and if you're
willing to be coached, you canlearn skills that you don't
think you can do.
If I can do it, oh honey child,you can do it.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (31:02):
Yes, totally.
There's going to be no cults orgurus.
And it's funny, I, I looked upthe meaning of cult, but I
didn't look up guru there's somepeople in the business Gary V
what's the ClickFunnel guy.
Russell Brunson.
Yeah, I, I have one of hisbooks, yeah.
So I have three, I think he's.
Elaine Williams (31:19):
I think he's adorable.
He's very, he doesn't likecussing on his stage.
He's very committed to his wifeand his family.
He really is a goofball internetcrazy dude, but in a good way,
I'm not a click funnels personfor lots of reasons, but I know
a lot of people who love hisstuff.
if somebody really resonateswith you, check them but also
(31:40):
keep in touch with your gut.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (31:42):
Yeah, exactly.
And, there is that sort of bro ymarketing kind of guy that guru
like there are definitely likethe male centric gurus and then
the very few female, but there,there are like people like, I
think Tony Robbins is like agood example of crossing both
lines.
Like he's approachable forwomen, you know, he's stands
tall.
And, he doesn't come across tome as like a bro y.
(32:04):
There's a sensitive side to him.
I don't know.
Like he's strong,
Elaine Williams (32:07):
but there is a, yeah.
And, another guy that I reallyloved learning from I was in his
world for two years.
I had heard of him.
And then I met somebody who waslike, I'm going to the thing.
Are you going?
And I was like, oh my gosh, Ijust.
Got a free ticket, there are alot of guys who follow him, it's
(32:27):
interesting because I know quitea few women who've tried his
particular formula and didn'texactly work for them.
But again, you never knowexactly what was the execution
and the market and themessaging.
There's a lot of factors, justlike a movie.
It's really hard to make a goodmovie because there's so many
places you can make it bad.
Right.
But take what you need and leavethe rest it's a journey,
Heather Zeitzwolfe (32:50):
the gurus, I mean, that's just, semantics.
We don't, I don't know whatexactly what the definition for
a guru is.
We know what the real guru is,but as far as like a business
guru, but I mean, you could saylike.
oprah Winfrey was a guru or sheis a guru, she had a, like a
level of influence.
If Oprah said to get somethinglike read this book, people are
going to do it, it's but shewasn't culty about it.
Like it wasn't a cult, but itwas like, but she has a level of
(33:13):
influence.
That's like remarkable, and soas business owners, we want to
have influence.
We just don't, we want to do itin an ethical way.
that's the the difference.
Elaine Williams (33:22):
And here's what I want to say about Oprah.
She has evolved clearly.
She has lived her life publiclyand made some huge mistakes and
owned them and cleaned it up andrebooted.
She made a big mistake with herschool in South Africa for a
while when she went on her ownwith her own, that it was
tanking one of the reasons Istill love her is, she admits
(33:46):
things and course corrects andwhatever, and I love how much
she gives back and, so it's justgreat to look at, I guess one of
the thing we probably should doa part two is, sometimes people.
I've seen a lot of people comeand go, right?
I've seen people have a superhot program and for whatever
reason they're getting a lot ofvisibility or whatever and then
(34:07):
they disappear.
And that's okay.
Maybe that's their path.
Yeah, just check everybody out,read the reviews, if you're
contemplating joining a programor working with a coach, it is
absolutely appropriate to askfor you a reference reference.
Run.
Run seriously, because I know Ihave clients, Heather's one of
(34:30):
them, but I know I have peoplethat I can say, I just got two
new clients because of areference, because I delivered
value and I care and I, give alot and I'm happy to do that,
it's always okay to say, I'm notsure.
Let me think about it.
I don't know.
When you're in the salesconversation, they may not like
that, but it's you and yourmoney.
it's absolutely okay to say, youknow what I I'd like to talk to
(34:52):
some other people and who'vebeen in the program.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (34:54):
that's a really good tip.
Cause testimonials on a websiteis one thing, but to actually
talk to somebody and find outis.
completely different.
absolutely.
Yeah, that's a good tip., oh, Idid have a thought that kind of
ran through my brain earlierbecause we've been talking about
don't drink the Kool Aid that'sfrom Jim Jones.
Yeah, in the 70s.
a mass suicide.
Terrible.
But you know the thing about JimJones's.
(35:16):
Yeah.
If you follow his history in thebeginning, he was actually doing
great things in the community.
I think it was in San Francisco,he brought together like the
black and white communities andhe was helping the poor and we
was doing all these greatthings.
I think the drugs and thecontrolling of women came later.
So we started off this greatperson.
It could be that some of thesepeople just become megalomaniacs
(35:38):
over time.
So they may start out a great,and then it's they turn into a
different person.
You never know.
Elaine Williams (35:44):
And, another person, another person who I
really admire from afar.
is Brendan Bouchard.
I have a bunch of his books.
I have been to one of hisevents.
I came late because I had aspeaking gig.
Go figure.
But I was blown away at thecommunity, the involvement and
he's such a goofy white guy.
People say I remind them of him,which I think is a huge
(36:06):
compliment.
But anyway, so he's.
Grown, grown, grown, Grown,grown, right?
So now he travels with likesecurity and, some people are
like, Whoa.
And I've heard different thingsabout some of his trainings,
whatever, but you never know isthat his egomaniac or did he
have some bad stuff happen?
You never know what's reallygoing on in somebody's life.
(36:28):
So again, take what you need,leave the rest, ask yourself, is
this something I need right now?
Heather Zeitzwolfe (36:35):
And if they're telling you that you
need to sell all your cars andsend them the money, run.
Elaine Williams (36:40):
Or if you're, at an event and they're bragging
that they just signed somebodyup, who's homeless and living in
her car, you might not want todo business with people like
that.
Yeah.
I've seen that happen.
I've seen that happen wheresomebody was like, Oh my God, I
didn't know how I was going todo it.
And I've been living in my carand somebody said they would
give me the down posit.
(37:00):
And so I'm, I signed up andthen, and we're all like, Okay.
And it's like a 10, 12, 000program.
And then the very next day, theperson holding the event talked
about how they take all thepeople to court if they break
their contract and how brutalthey are.
And I remember just thinking, Ihave to leave.
I can't be a part of this.
(37:21):
This is against my heart, here'sthe thing.
Everybody has a right to runtheir business.
so I just said, okay, I'm outand I'm not going to work with
this person.
And I know tons of people who'vestarted to work with this person
and then gotten out of it orwhatever.
But it's okay, that's how theyrun their business.
Does not vibe with me, whatever,take it all with a big grain of
(37:42):
salt and just call Heather.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (37:44):
Yeah, take what you need and then leave and
just always think for yourself.
encourage people to Thinkcritically about things like
really examine it and don't justtake it at face value.
And especially today's worldwhere now we can create
something AI.
Like now, when I looked at aphotograph, I'm like, is this
even real?
I'm like, you were talking aboutthat
Elaine Williams (38:03):
when you were watching TV the other night, we
were like, is that even theperson or is that AI version of
the person?
It's so hard to know.
Yeah.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (38:11):
Yeah.
I always want people to thinkwith a, critical mind, our
school system teaches us that wehave to have the right answer.
I love school.
I got A's, you know, and, it'svery regimented and I'm not, I
think school is very important,but I think also thinking for
yourself is super important.
And speaking out there, I wantpeople to have the guts to raise
their hand and be like, no, Idon't agree with that,
Elaine Williams (38:32):
when I was taking my real estate courses,
this is like 2008 7 2007.
And my teacher would say, I'mtrying to teach you critical
thinking and I literally waslike, what, I had never
remembered hearing that termbefore, and I had studied drama
and singing and dancing and,theory, but I don't remember
(38:52):
thinking a deal through orlooking at the numbers and so
I'm grateful for all thattraining, We'll have to do a
part two cause I know people areprobably like, oh my God, this
is so much, but yeah, Heather,this has been a blast.
And I encourage everybody tofollow their dreams, but just be
smart about it and it's okay togo slow,
Heather Zeitzwolfe (39:12):
slow and steady.
Yeah the silver bullet that'sgoing to make it all great,
especially in six weeks, 10weeks, or you're supposed to go
to a three day conference andlike, yes, maybe you will be
transformed, but sometimes thatthere's that honeymoon period
and then it deflates and nowyou're like well, now what,
Elaine Williams (39:28):
you need structure, a coach.
And implementation, which is Icall it, it's not the sexy stuff
sitting in home and editing isnot sexy, like sitting there,
spreadsheet, whatever we'regoing to be doing next week, not
sexy, but if you gamify it, I'llcome play.
Heather Zeitzwolfe (39:47):
And accountability.
So the gurus are, they're notgoing to give you
accountability.
Not at that level.
You need Interaction.
Real interaction.
Okay.
Awesome, Elaine.
Thank you so much.
Elaine Williams (39:56):
Okay.
All right.
Thanks, Heather.
Love you.
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