April 30, 2024 • 30 mins
Gayathri Shukla, known for her empathy and commitment to diversity, joins us to share her journey from engineer to digital transformation leader in mining. Her story reflects the challenges she faced as an immigrant in male-dominated fields, shaping her into a champion for inclusive workplaces. Gayathri's insights show us how storytelling in leadership isn't just an art—it's a tool for connection and change. Her creation, Campfire Kinship, is a guide for leaders who want to use diverse stories and empathy in their work.
With the precision of an engineer and the vision of an innovator, Gayathri shows us how to build trust—a crucial part of making big changes happen. As we learn about her experiences, we see how to blend big plans with the realities of everyday work. Gayathri's time in the mines, along with her push for more people-focused technical education, highlights the importance of soft skills alongside technical knowledge. By guiding leaders through honest storytelling, she helps create workplaces where trust and empathy drive meaningful change. Don't miss out on this enlightening conversation—your leadership skills are about to get a boost.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to.
So you Want to Move to theCountry and Raise Goats?
This is a podcast about change.
Change is all around us andsometimes we're ready for it and
sometimes we're not.
When it overwhelms us, well, wejust want to move to the
country and raise goats.
This podcast features storiesfrom people who have gone
(00:20):
through change.
We hope that their insightswill help you better understand
and deal with the changes inyour life.
I'm Peggy Koenig and, alongwith my co-host, katherine
Greiba, we chat with insightfulpeople with interesting change
stories.
We hope you enjoy our podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Our guest is Gayathri Shukla, and she has seen change
in her life and, in fact, hasmade it her life's work.
Gayathri was born in India,then moved to Saudi Arabia and
later immigrated to Canada withher parents and younger brother.
Through these moves to threevery different countries,
(01:03):
gayathri has an appreciation ofthe challenges that come with
adapting to new cultures.
Trained as an electricalengineer with an executive MBA
from Queen's and a certificationin social impact, gayathri
worked in the energy sector forover 17 years.
During that time, she found hergreatest success was when she
(01:25):
took the time to get to know thepeople she was working with.
Empathy is the key, and shetalks about how we must learn to
hold space and really find thestrengths in other people to
help them bring their goals tofruition.
Today, gayathri is the founderof Campfire Kinship, where she
(01:46):
creates story-based solutions bydiverse individuals and teams
to highlight their uniquestrengths and build empathy.
Her most recent role is leadingdigital transformation and
innovation programs in mining.
Join us for our conversationwith Gayathri from her home in
(02:07):
Calgary.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
We're talking to Gayathri Shukla from Calgary
today and welcoming her to thepodcast, and Gayathri's an
entrepreneur.
She's a keynote speaker, apodcast host and has a very
interesting company that focuseson storytelling and leadership
development in the areas ofequity, diversity, inclusion and
(02:34):
belonging.
But before all of that,Gayathri studied engineering,
and so I'm really interested inhearing your story as to why you
chose engineering, why that wasthe path for you at the time,
and then how you've evolved intowhat you're doing now.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Yeah, thank you so much for the kind introduction,
peggy, and I'm so excited to behere on this podcast.
Yeah, I guess I would say Istarted my career as an engineer
, you know, not because of thereason you offer here as to
people who are so passionateabout engineering.
I come from an immigrantbackground and, as is typical in
(03:12):
many immigrant families, thedirection I received from my
parents was you know, get a, geta degree.
That's going to get you a goodjob after you graduate.
And I happen to be really goodat math and science in high
school.
My dad himself was an engineer,so following in his footsteps
kind of became the default forme and I would say I started to
(03:34):
find my passion once I actuallyreally got into the work.
At the beginning it was hard, Iwon't lie.
It really challenged challengedme not just from a technical
and and like the difficulty ofthe subject itself.
But I would often question if Ibelonged because I wouldn't see
too many people that look likeme, not in engineering school,
(03:56):
not out in the field.
I started my career in miningand oil and gas up in northern
Alberta, so remote, and therewere not too many people who
looked like me at all.
So, just being the only made mequestion if I belonged.
And as I started to navigate mycareer, there were all of these
stereotypes and biases that weyou know, we hear that still
(04:19):
plagues women in this field thatI myself had to navigate, and
through that I think I reallyfound my passion for the work I
do now in inclusion anddiversity, because not only did
I navigate these things myselfas an engineer in the field, but
also, once I got intoleadership roles, I started to
(04:40):
see really the benefits ofdiversity, and yet I also saw
how difficult it was for leadersto put these things, these
concepts, into action, and so Isort of became obsessed on the
how how do we actually bringthese principles and intentions
to life and actually createworkplaces that work for
(05:02):
everyone?
So that's a little bit aboutthe backstory of how I got
started and how I got into whatI'm doing now.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
You know.
I'm really curious then about,as you you know, you got your.
Your training as an engineer.
Working in the field wasn'tquite, maybe, what you thought
it would be.
How, what were the interactionslike with your family during
that process?
Um around, I'm not sure this isa fit for me.
(05:29):
Do you just, you know, for awhile, think, oh, I'm just gonna
work through it?
Um, or like, what did that lookand feel like for you?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
you know, I would say there were definitely some
difficult conversations I hadwith my family in the beginning,
and the one thing that wasconstant was my family's support
.
I have a brother as well, andnever once did I see my parents
sort of favoring, you know, himover me.
(06:01):
And when it came to education,there were no sort of like
gendered roles to what we weredoing and and I knew they had my
back.
So I didn't feel like giving up.
But it again wasn't until Iactually got a job in the field
and then started to appreciateall of the stuff I was learning
on the textbook, uh, in reallife.
(06:22):
That it was like you know what?
No, I think I can do this and Ithink I'm going to like it, so
I'll stick with it and see whereit goes.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
So when you started you were a practicing engineer
and you know from what Iunderstand, from looking at your
career path, it looks like youslowly but surely moved into
more of the diversity andinclusion area even when you
were a practicing engineer.
Were there a lot of challengesdoing that, or were the
(06:55):
companies ready?
Was the company ready for that?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Yeah, I would say when I started moving into this
it was actually through a formalrole.
I would say when I startedmoving into this it was actually
through a formal role.
I was still doing myengineering work, but I was
given the opportunity to leadour employee resource group on
women's diversity, which wassort of like on top of my
regular job, and so thatsignaled to me the company was
definitely ready.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
But even through that role of leading that resource,
group, I came across againseveral barriers and really the
first time I realized that,while there's great intent, if
we don't know how to actuallyaction some of these things,
it's not going to go that far,unfortunately.
So was there someone that youworked for or with that said
Gayathri, you know, you've justgot what it takes.
You should pursue this a littlebit.
Or was it something that reallycame from within and you just
charted your own path?
Speaker 3 (08:01):
A little bit of both.
I think the majority of it wassomething that came from within,
but I've also been blessed tohave some amazing mentors and
others in my life who helpedcatalyze that change for me.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Yeah, because we've heard from so many of our guests
that sometimes it's just, youknow, that one person that's
noticed where we're good atsomething and encourages us.
So, you know, coupled with yourown drive, it sounds like it
was never really a question foryou, or was it?
Did you ever look back and say,oh, I don't know if I should be
doing this or not.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
I have never regretted the shift to
entrepreneurship, I think partlybecause, you know, sort of
15-ish years into my career Ialso did an MBA, and the MBA
opened my worldview in terms ofthe work I had done up until
then had been largely technical,but this just expanded my
(09:05):
horizon in terms ofunderstanding the overall
business context and theimportance of having your vision
.
But then how do you reallybring that to life?
And I also first came acrossstorytelling during my MBA,
because my thesis was ontransformation and specifically
the role of inclusive leadershipwhen it comes to change and
(09:27):
transformation.
And that's when I came acrossthis practice of human-centered
design, which is really aboutunderstanding the lived
experiences of the communitiesthat you're trying to serve and
the beauty of storytelling inthat.
And so when I started to studythat it was, all of the pieces
(09:48):
of the puzzles came into placewhere I went aha, this is
actually what's missing in theworkplace is just let's humanize
this work, right.
I think we often tend to talkabout things like inclusion,
diversity from a verytheoretical angle, but it's
really about the human beingwho's at the center of that and
(10:10):
if we can help by learning abouttheir lived experience and
really understanding where thechallenges are and then
co-creating solutions with them,then I think we can move the
needle forward.
And so, yeah, that MBA, I wouldsay, was sort of the accelerant
for me to really put this intopractice and then also give me
(10:33):
the confidence to make thetransition from a career
standpoint.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
So when did you know exactly that it was time to leap
out of the corporate world andinto an entrepreneur role?
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, I would say about two years ago.
So to go back a little bitfurther than that, it was when
COVID started that I finally hadthe time from not having to
commute, from not having totravel for my job, just having
time in the evenings andweekends to test this idea that
(11:08):
I had been playing with sincethe MBA.
And I literally just started anInstagram account and I started
to share stories of women inthe STEM professions.
And then I also certified in amethod of storytelling called
guided autobiography.
And then I also certified in amethod of storytelling called
guided autobiography it's amouthful and that gave me the
opportunity to host workshops inthe community.
(11:30):
And then, pretty soon, onething led to another and before
I knew it, it had garneredenough traction to the point
where I was finding it difficultto pull down a full-time job
and try to do this on the side.
So, about just over two yearsago now, I made that decision to
quit my corporate job and andgo in all full-time.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
So I'm really curious .
When you say inclusiveleadership to help guide your
transformation, can you share anexample of what that would look
like or what does that mean?
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah, you know, I think these terms inclusive
leadership and transformationsometimes just get used as
buzzwords.
Yeah, to me, an inclusiveleader is really just someone
who takes the time to get toknow their people, and it kind
(12:30):
of comes back to this practiceof empathy, which is what I
really center a lot of myteaching around is how to hold
space for someone who may not besharing the same types of lived
experiences like we do.
How to hold space and reallyfind the strengths in them that
(12:51):
they themselves may not see thatthey have and help bring that
to fruition in a work context.
And there's another term thatgets used a lot, that I think
can become a buzz term ispsychological safety.
And it's interesting becausethe link between inclusive
(13:12):
leadership and psychologicalsafety is that those who know
how to create that for theirteams are really the ones that
are inclusive, those that knowhow to create an environment
where people feel safe to speakup, to voice a dissenting
opinion, to just be who thatthey are.
That's what I think is aninclusive leader, okay.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
And so how has do you make any parallels then between
you know, the inclusiveleadership and psychological
safety in the whole changeprocess of transitioning from,
perhaps, one career to another.
How does all of, how does thatfit into the change process?
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Oh, I think it's paramount the change process and
the change can be change ofcareers, it can be change of
culture.
I'll give you one example.
In one of my past roles I wasleading the digital
transformation initiatives forour mining department and I
(14:20):
would often find that whileagain there would be great
executive intent and strategies,there would be a gap between
that strategy at the highestlevel and sort of the lived
experiences of people in thefield and their realities.
And I personally because I hadbeen part of this, you know,
studying human-centered designand all of these things I would
(14:43):
personally go up to the field,in the mine, and talk to the
people in the field and say youknow, tell me your problems,
tell me your pain points, whatare some of the issues that
you're dealing with on aday-to-day basis?
And the number one thing Iwould hear would be you know,
thank you for taking the time tocome talk to us, like, thank
you for caring.
It.
Just, it feels so good to knowthat someone in the corporate
(15:07):
office cares about us and ourissues.
And what I found was that, froma change perspective, once that
trust and relationship wasbuilt, people are a lot more on
board to adopt whateverinitiatives we were proposing,
as opposed to seeing it from aplace of fear or resistance to
say, oh no, I don't know aboutthis digital stuff, like that's
going to take my job away.
(15:27):
And so, for me, an inclusiveleader is one that can
understand that for any changeto be successful, you've got to
first build that trust with yourpeople, and you've got to take
the time to get to know them,get to know their stories and
meet them where they're at intheir journey, without trying to
force down something thatthey're not ready for yet.
(15:49):
So that would be sort of thelink that I see to change.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
So, Guy3, it's.
You know a lot of people thatwe've talked to have started in
one place, like perhaps a musicdegree or a English, a liberal
arts degree or an engineeringdegree, and have moved into
something else.
Have you found that you've beenable to leverage?
Because very often people say,oh my gosh, I've invested all
(16:19):
this money in getting thiseducation.
How can I just turn around andwalk away from it?
But are you really walking awayfrom it?
I'm interested in knowing yourthoughts on whether or not you
leverage those types of thingsas you develop in other areas
yeah, I love that question, youknow it.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
What comes to mind is I think you can take the
engineer like me out of thefield, but you can't take the
engineer out of me.
And I and I say that because Iall the time I'm seeing, when I
take a step back, the skillsthat I continue to apply, that I
built early on in my career,everything from problem solving,
(17:00):
which I think is my biggeststrength, and then I think many
engineers are ones that theyspot a problem and they put
their mind and their resource tosolving that problem, put their
mind and their resource tosolving that problem.
So, really bringing goodcritical thinking skills, good
analytical skills,problem-solving skills, and
those are things I do every day.
(17:20):
From a technical standpoint, Iwould say, yes, I've sort of it
seems like I've left theprofession, but I also get to
work with other engineersthrough my client engagements
and, again, the strength that Isee is that I can really
understand where they're at andbring in my own lived experience
to meet them where they're at,as opposed to someone who maybe
(17:45):
doesn't have that exposure inthe field and doesn't, from a
first hand, know the problems asintimately as someone like
myself that I think I can bring.
So again, I see myselfsupporting the profession, not
maybe in the inside, but fromthe outside.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
It's interesting, you know, when you talk about human
centered design and versus Idon't know if it should be, if
the word versus is appropriate,but versus technical training
One would say, hmm, is there analignment there?
But really there is.
From what you've just said,there is an alignment, so that
(18:24):
bringing that human-centereddesign and and bringing it
together with the technical, itmakes sense.
It's just that that not thatmany people do it.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Yeah, and you know, it's interesting to hear you say
that, because I wish therewasn't as much of a distinction
or duality between the two.
I think that should just be.
The way that we embrace anytypes of problems we're trying
to solve as engineers is to lookat who is the person being
affected by this, who is theperson that's going to be the
(18:58):
recipient of this, and learningto take their input into the
design.
I think should just be the waythat we operate normally now.
When I went to engineeringschool, this wasn't even a topic
that was talked about.
Granted, I went many decadesago and I'm aging myself now,
but I now have this uniqueopportunity to teach and run
(19:21):
workshops at the Faculty ofEngineering at U of C, which is
my alma mater, and I'm so happyto see that such topics like you
know, the so-called soft skillsthat's.
You know, I don't really likethe term soft skills, but I'm
happy to see that skills likecommunication and teamwork and
inclusive leadership these areall things that are now being
(19:43):
talked about much more, even atan undergrad level, and I get to
go, have that opportunity to goand talk to students and help
teach these workshops to supporttheir skill building in those
areas, and it's something Ireally wish that I had, and I'm
just hoping that, as you know,time goes, we will start to
normalize these things and notnecessarily view them as two
(20:05):
separate things, but just theway and how we work.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
It's also really interesting tome how you've talked about time
and the importance of time, thetime that you took during COVID
, because prior to that, younever had the time, the time
that's needed to invest inrelationships before you can ask
(20:29):
people to change or to trustyou, before you can ask people
to change or to trust you.
And you know there's an adagethat says you know, the speed
with which decisions can bearrived at is dependent on the
level of trust there is in theroom, so that this trust and
time is there's a, you know it'sa.
They're very dependent on eachother, and so you know, our
(20:49):
listeners, do you have anyadvice for people when they're
considering a change about thehow to you know, take the
necessary time by which toevaluate, and how do you find
that time and how is that?
How important is it?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
You know this is one of the greatest precious
resources that you know all ofus have or don't have in some
cases.
Right is time, and everybodygets a finite amount in life.
And I think that's also one ofthe biggest challenges is how do
you make the time?
And I know for me that theknowledge of having done change
(21:35):
type initiatives, both throughmy career and also changing my
own career path, I know nowafter the fact when, in the
moment, I would be met with myown impatience of like oh, it's
just taking so long, you know,like I don't have the time to do
this.
But now, having done change afew times and then looking back,
going well, it was because Iinvested the time that I could
make this change work.
(21:56):
I have that foresight now forany other new projects that come
up that requires that type ofinvestment to go.
Okay, it's going to feelpainful and at the beginning,
but that's okay.
It's absolutely worth investingthe time that we have because
the payoff, I know, will be thatmuch better and I could
(22:17):
probably accomplish more laterbecause I took the time now to
do it right.
So I don't know if that helps,but I just I empathize that time
is a precious commodity andsometimes it can be hard to
justify investing as much as wedo to build relationships or to
just even take the time forourselves from a self-care
(22:39):
perspective, but it always,always pays off in the end.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yeah, and I mean organizational change is, you
know, as you said, manyexecutives.
They have, you know, kpis.
They've got targets to meet allof that and it's all very
important applying empathy toconversations and but also
personally, when we're goingthrough change, to just set the
(23:14):
time aside that's necessary todo that reflection of what we're
looking for yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
There's another, another adage that I love.
It says uh something around theeffect of change moves at the
speed of empathy, which I thinkis uh, really true and relevant,
and often I coach leaders tooto say, you know, don't feel
like you need three days at anoff-site to do this work.
It could literally look liketwo minutes when you're walking
(23:44):
down the hallway you're seeingsomeone your employee and you're
taking the time to actuallylisten to how they're doing.
Like you're asking how they'redoing, you're not on your phone,
you're asking them how they'redoing and you're taking the time
to actually listen to howthey're doing.
Like you're asking how they'redoing.
You're not on your phone,you're asking them how they're
doing and you're taking thosetwo minutes to listen to the
answer.
And that's two minutes.
And that's how we can continueto build on any change or even
(24:06):
empathy skills right, just bytaking that small incremental
actions wherever we can yeah sohow has the entrepreneurial
journey been for you?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
they've been ups downs.
Has it been fun, has it?
Do you ever question whatyou're doing?
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I, to be honest, I would say it's been a journey
that's been very fulfilling andfun, and also it hasn't been
without its challenges, and Ithink the challenging part of
that is something I also welcomebecause in the long run it's
taught me some really valuablelessons that I don't think I
(24:51):
would have had the opportunityto learn otherwise.
But it's been fulfilling.
I published a book last yearcalled Landed it's on the
stories of immigrant women inCanada and I was able to, you
know, apply this method ofguided autobiography, run
workshops in the community andhelp 37 women from 30 countries
(25:12):
of origin write their mostheartfelt immigration journey
for this book and I'm so proudof this project because, you
know, it takes a lot of courageto not only write but to put
your story out in the world andwithin two days it became a
bestseller, which to me,signaled that there's a lot of
interest that people have in notonly sharing their own story
(25:35):
but also listening to otherstories.
So that's been one of thehighlights, I would say, and
also the variety of clients thatI get to work with.
I'm really, really enjoyingthat.
I think, from a corporateperspective, in my previous
career that sort of varietywouldn't normally be had.
(25:55):
And now I get to work withuniversities, with school boards
, with for-profits, non-profits,and it's just such a wide range
that I'm really enjoying.
So I'd say those two things forsure.
The challenging part has beento try and doing things on your
own.
As you know, right, thelearning curve is deep, and I've
(26:16):
just now started to learn howto start to delegate and how to
find the right partners in thefirst place that are skilled at
different things that I'm notskilled at, which is the benefit
of diversity, right, and sobeing really diligent around
delegating the things that Iknow I'm not good at and
building those partnerships,that's been some of the learning
for me so far.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
So it sounds like you have a lot of energy.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
It sounds like you have a lot of energy.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
So I mean balancing that off with patience and
reflection.
I expect that you probably haveother places that you're going
to take this business.
What kind of vision do you havefor going forward?
Are you still getting thefoundation sort of settled
(27:08):
before you start doing otherthings, because I sense a lot of
creativity there.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Yeah, thank you for that question.
In terms of a long-term vision,what I would say is I see this
business being successful ifit's not just me hosting and
facilitating the types ofworkshops that I do.
I would love to be able to getto a point where I have a
train-the-trainer type of amodel where other people can be
(27:36):
trained and can start hostingtheir own storytelling workshops
.
I know, even from one of myprevious client projects, there
were 600 leaders in theorganization that needed
training, and when I signed onto this large enterprise
contract, my first reaction wasoh wow, how am I as a single
(27:57):
person going to do this bymyself?
And I started to realize theimportance of now building a
network.
I have co-facilitators now whoare starting to offer this
training as well, and I alsohave an online course that's
built that sets the foundationsfor folks.
So it's through more of thesetypes of steps that I I see
(28:20):
myself taking over the nextcouple of years.
I think this can be built to apoint where there's that
scalability as well.
So that is kind of my longerterm vision.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
I think that's more change coming.
Yeah, it's so exciting becauseit really aligns with where
Catherine and I are coming from,on stories and sharing stories,
because really that's how we,that's how we pass on our the
wisdom, I guess, around changeand transition.
So I think storytelling isthere's a lot more that can be
(28:53):
done in that area, for sure.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yeah, no for sure.
And you know, one of thequestions I often get from
leaders is just how do I tell mystory?
How do I feel Like, how do Ifirst know what story to tell
and then how do I tell it in away where it's still authentic
but, you know, doesn't sort ofput someone on the spot or
doesn't expose me, whatever.
That means, right, and I thinkjust even that vulnerability is
(29:21):
a very courageous thing.
To tell your story and justgiving leaders a space to
explore that a little bit is astarting point.
But the nice thing about thisand having done this now for
over two years, I see the impactand I see that um just creating
that space enables leaders tobe able to uh, feel more
(29:41):
confident to share their story.
So I really see it as astrategic business competency um
to build and it can servechange management, it can serve
inclusive leadership, it canserve all kinds of goals.
So hoping to see more of thatin the world well, what a
remarkable story you have.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
I mean, just to have the courage to see what else is
is out there.
I mean you were certainly on,I'm sure, a successful career
track as an engineer, uh, butthen just to see how things
could be better by, you know,focusing on inclusive leadership
and storytelling, I think it'squite remarkable.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
If you've learned just one thing about change
while listening to this podcast,please subscribe on Apple or
Spotify and share with a friend.
Please subscribe on Apple orSpotify and share with friend
this episode recorded via Zoomaudio.
Producers Peggy Koenig andCatherine Greiba.
Executive producer.
Koenig Leadership AdvisoryTheme music La Pompe, written by
(30:44):
Chris Harrington.
Music publisher Envato MarketFor information on this podcast
and to purchase some fabulousgoat merchandise.
Welcome to.
So you Want to Move to theCountry and Raise Goats?
This is a podcast about change.
Change is all around us andsometimes we're ready for it and
sometimes we're not.
When it overwhelms us, well, wejust want to move to the
country and raise goats.
This podcast features storiesfrom people who have gone
(00:20):
through change.
We hope that their insightswill help you better understand
and deal with the changes inyour life.
I'm Peggy Koenig and, alongwith my co-host, katherine
Greiba, we chat with insightfulpeople with interesting change
stories.
We hope you enjoy our podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Our guest is Gayathri Shukla, and she has seen change
in her life and, in fact, hasmade it her life's work.
Gayathri was born in India,then moved to Saudi Arabia and
later immigrated to Canada withher parents and younger brother.
Through these moves to threevery different countries,
(01:03):
gayathri has an appreciation ofthe challenges that come with
adapting to new cultures.
Trained as an electricalengineer with an executive MBA
from Queen's and a certificationin social impact, gayathri
worked in the energy sector forover 17 years.
During that time, she found hergreatest success was when she
(01:25):
took the time to get to know thepeople she was working with.
Empathy is the key, and shetalks about how we must learn to
hold space and really find thestrengths in other people to
help them bring their goals tofruition.
Today, gayathri is the founderof Campfire Kinship, where she
(01:46):
creates story-based solutions bydiverse individuals and teams
to highlight their uniquestrengths and build empathy.
Her most recent role is leadingdigital transformation and
innovation programs in mining.
Join us for our conversationwith Gayathri from her home in
(02:07):
Calgary.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
We're talking to Gayathri Shukla from Calgary
today and welcoming her to thepodcast, and Gayathri's an
entrepreneur.
She's a keynote speaker, apodcast host and has a very
interesting company that focuseson storytelling and leadership
development in the areas ofequity, diversity, inclusion and
(02:34):
belonging.
But before all of that,Gayathri studied engineering,
and so I'm really interested inhearing your story as to why you
chose engineering, why that wasthe path for you at the time,
and then how you've evolved intowhat you're doing now.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Yeah, thank you so much for the kind introduction,
peggy, and I'm so excited to behere on this podcast.
Yeah, I guess I would say Istarted my career as an engineer
, you know, not because of thereason you offer here as to
people who are so passionateabout engineering.
I come from an immigrantbackground and, as is typical in
(03:12):
many immigrant families, thedirection I received from my
parents was you know, get a, geta degree.
That's going to get you a goodjob after you graduate.
And I happen to be really goodat math and science in high
school.
My dad himself was an engineer,so following in his footsteps
kind of became the default forme and I would say I started to
(03:34):
find my passion once I actuallyreally got into the work.
At the beginning it was hard, Iwon't lie.
It really challenged challengedme not just from a technical
and and like the difficulty ofthe subject itself.
But I would often question if Ibelonged because I wouldn't see
too many people that look likeme, not in engineering school,
(03:56):
not out in the field.
I started my career in miningand oil and gas up in northern
Alberta, so remote, and therewere not too many people who
looked like me at all.
So, just being the only made mequestion if I belonged.
And as I started to navigate mycareer, there were all of these
stereotypes and biases that weyou know, we hear that still
(04:19):
plagues women in this field thatI myself had to navigate, and
through that I think I reallyfound my passion for the work I
do now in inclusion anddiversity, because not only did
I navigate these things myselfas an engineer in the field, but
also, once I got intoleadership roles, I started to
(04:40):
see really the benefits ofdiversity, and yet I also saw
how difficult it was for leadersto put these things, these
concepts, into action, and so Isort of became obsessed on the
how how do we actually bringthese principles and intentions
to life and actually createworkplaces that work for
(05:02):
everyone?
So that's a little bit aboutthe backstory of how I got
started and how I got into whatI'm doing now.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
You know.
I'm really curious then about,as you you know, you got your.
Your training as an engineer.
Working in the field wasn'tquite, maybe, what you thought
it would be.
How, what were the interactionslike with your family during
that process?
Um around, I'm not sure this isa fit for me.
(05:29):
Do you just, you know, for awhile, think, oh, I'm just gonna
work through it?
Um, or like, what did that lookand feel like for you?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
you know, I would say there were definitely some
difficult conversations I hadwith my family in the beginning,
and the one thing that wasconstant was my family's support
.
I have a brother as well, andnever once did I see my parents
sort of favoring, you know, himover me.
(06:01):
And when it came to education,there were no sort of like
gendered roles to what we weredoing and and I knew they had my
back.
So I didn't feel like giving up.
But it again wasn't until Iactually got a job in the field
and then started to appreciateall of the stuff I was learning
on the textbook, uh, in reallife.
(06:22):
That it was like you know what?
No, I think I can do this and Ithink I'm going to like it, so
I'll stick with it and see whereit goes.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
So when you started you were a practicing engineer
and you know from what Iunderstand, from looking at your
career path, it looks like youslowly but surely moved into
more of the diversity andinclusion area even when you
were a practicing engineer.
Were there a lot of challengesdoing that, or were the
(06:55):
companies ready?
Was the company ready for that?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Yeah, I would say when I started moving into this
it was actually through a formalrole.
I would say when I startedmoving into this it was actually
through a formal role.
I was still doing myengineering work, but I was
given the opportunity to leadour employee resource group on
women's diversity, which wassort of like on top of my
regular job, and so thatsignaled to me the company was
definitely ready.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
But even through that role of leading that resource,
group, I came across againseveral barriers and really the
first time I realized that,while there's great intent, if
we don't know how to actuallyaction some of these things,
it's not going to go that far,unfortunately.
So was there someone that youworked for or with that said
Gayathri, you know, you've justgot what it takes.
You should pursue this a littlebit.
Or was it something that reallycame from within and you just
charted your own path?
Speaker 3 (08:01):
A little bit of both.
I think the majority of it wassomething that came from within,
but I've also been blessed tohave some amazing mentors and
others in my life who helpedcatalyze that change for me.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Yeah, because we've heard from so many of our guests
that sometimes it's just, youknow, that one person that's
noticed where we're good atsomething and encourages us.
So, you know, coupled with yourown drive, it sounds like it
was never really a question foryou, or was it?
Did you ever look back and say,oh, I don't know if I should be
doing this or not.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
I have never regretted the shift to
entrepreneurship, I think partlybecause, you know, sort of
15-ish years into my career Ialso did an MBA, and the MBA
opened my worldview in terms ofthe work I had done up until
then had been largely technical,but this just expanded my
(09:05):
horizon in terms ofunderstanding the overall
business context and theimportance of having your vision
.
But then how do you reallybring that to life?
And I also first came acrossstorytelling during my MBA,
because my thesis was ontransformation and specifically
the role of inclusive leadershipwhen it comes to change and
(09:27):
transformation.
And that's when I came acrossthis practice of human-centered
design, which is really aboutunderstanding the lived
experiences of the communitiesthat you're trying to serve and
the beauty of storytelling inthat.
And so when I started to studythat it was, all of the pieces
(09:48):
of the puzzles came into placewhere I went aha, this is
actually what's missing in theworkplace is just let's humanize
this work, right.
I think we often tend to talkabout things like inclusion,
diversity from a verytheoretical angle, but it's
really about the human beingwho's at the center of that and
(10:10):
if we can help by learning abouttheir lived experience and
really understanding where thechallenges are and then
co-creating solutions with them,then I think we can move the
needle forward.
And so, yeah, that MBA, I wouldsay, was sort of the accelerant
for me to really put this intopractice and then also give me
(10:33):
the confidence to make thetransition from a career
standpoint.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
So when did you know exactly that it was time to leap
out of the corporate world andinto an entrepreneur role?
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, I would say about two years ago.
So to go back a little bitfurther than that, it was when
COVID started that I finally hadthe time from not having to
commute, from not having totravel for my job, just having
time in the evenings andweekends to test this idea that
(11:08):
I had been playing with sincethe MBA.
And I literally just started anInstagram account and I started
to share stories of women inthe STEM professions.
And then I also certified in amethod of storytelling called
guided autobiography.
And then I also certified in amethod of storytelling called
guided autobiography it's amouthful and that gave me the
opportunity to host workshops inthe community.
(11:30):
And then, pretty soon, onething led to another and before
I knew it, it had garneredenough traction to the point
where I was finding it difficultto pull down a full-time job
and try to do this on the side.
So, about just over two yearsago now, I made that decision to
quit my corporate job and andgo in all full-time.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
So I'm really curious .
When you say inclusiveleadership to help guide your
transformation, can you share anexample of what that would look
like or what does that mean?
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah, you know, I think these terms inclusive
leadership and transformationsometimes just get used as
buzzwords.
Yeah, to me, an inclusiveleader is really just someone
who takes the time to get toknow their people, and it kind
(12:30):
of comes back to this practiceof empathy, which is what I
really center a lot of myteaching around is how to hold
space for someone who may not besharing the same types of lived
experiences like we do.
How to hold space and reallyfind the strengths in them that
(12:51):
they themselves may not see thatthey have and help bring that
to fruition in a work context.
And there's another term thatgets used a lot, that I think
can become a buzz term ispsychological safety.
And it's interesting becausethe link between inclusive
(13:12):
leadership and psychologicalsafety is that those who know
how to create that for theirteams are really the ones that
are inclusive, those that knowhow to create an environment
where people feel safe to speakup, to voice a dissenting
opinion, to just be who thatthey are.
That's what I think is aninclusive leader, okay.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
And so how has do you make any parallels then between
you know, the inclusiveleadership and psychological
safety in the whole changeprocess of transitioning from,
perhaps, one career to another.
How does all of, how does thatfit into the change process?
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Oh, I think it's paramount the change process and
the change can be change ofcareers, it can be change of
culture.
I'll give you one example.
In one of my past roles I wasleading the digital
transformation initiatives forour mining department and I
(14:20):
would often find that whileagain there would be great
executive intent and strategies,there would be a gap between
that strategy at the highestlevel and sort of the lived
experiences of people in thefield and their realities.
And I personally because I hadbeen part of this, you know,
studying human-centered designand all of these things I would
(14:43):
personally go up to the field,in the mine, and talk to the
people in the field and say youknow, tell me your problems,
tell me your pain points, whatare some of the issues that
you're dealing with on aday-to-day basis?
And the number one thing Iwould hear would be you know,
thank you for taking the time tocome talk to us, like, thank
you for caring.
It.
Just, it feels so good to knowthat someone in the corporate
(15:07):
office cares about us and ourissues.
And what I found was that, froma change perspective, once that
trust and relationship wasbuilt, people are a lot more on
board to adopt whateverinitiatives we were proposing,
as opposed to seeing it from aplace of fear or resistance to
say, oh no, I don't know aboutthis digital stuff, like that's
going to take my job away.
(15:27):
And so, for me, an inclusiveleader is one that can
understand that for any changeto be successful, you've got to
first build that trust with yourpeople, and you've got to take
the time to get to know them,get to know their stories and
meet them where they're at intheir journey, without trying to
force down something thatthey're not ready for yet.
(15:49):
So that would be sort of thelink that I see to change.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
So, Guy3, it's.
You know a lot of people thatwe've talked to have started in
one place, like perhaps a musicdegree or a English, a liberal
arts degree or an engineeringdegree, and have moved into
something else.
Have you found that you've beenable to leverage?
Because very often people say,oh my gosh, I've invested all
(16:19):
this money in getting thiseducation.
How can I just turn around andwalk away from it?
But are you really walking awayfrom it?
I'm interested in knowing yourthoughts on whether or not you
leverage those types of thingsas you develop in other areas
yeah, I love that question, youknow it.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
What comes to mind is I think you can take the
engineer like me out of thefield, but you can't take the
engineer out of me.
And I and I say that because Iall the time I'm seeing, when I
take a step back, the skillsthat I continue to apply, that I
built early on in my career,everything from problem solving,
(17:00):
which I think is my biggeststrength, and then I think many
engineers are ones that theyspot a problem and they put
their mind and their resource tosolving that problem, put their
mind and their resource tosolving that problem.
So, really bringing goodcritical thinking skills, good
analytical skills,problem-solving skills, and
those are things I do every day.
(17:20):
From a technical standpoint, Iwould say, yes, I've sort of it
seems like I've left theprofession, but I also get to
work with other engineersthrough my client engagements
and, again, the strength that Isee is that I can really
understand where they're at andbring in my own lived experience
to meet them where they're at,as opposed to someone who maybe
(17:45):
doesn't have that exposure inthe field and doesn't, from a
first hand, know the problems asintimately as someone like
myself that I think I can bring.
So again, I see myselfsupporting the profession, not
maybe in the inside, but fromthe outside.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
It's interesting, you know, when you talk about human
centered design and versus Idon't know if it should be, if
the word versus is appropriate,but versus technical training
One would say, hmm, is there analignment there?
But really there is.
From what you've just said,there is an alignment, so that
(18:24):
bringing that human-centereddesign and and bringing it
together with the technical, itmakes sense.
It's just that that not thatmany people do it.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Yeah, and you know, it's interesting to hear you say
that, because I wish therewasn't as much of a distinction
or duality between the two.
I think that should just be.
The way that we embrace anytypes of problems we're trying
to solve as engineers is to lookat who is the person being
affected by this, who is theperson that's going to be the
(18:58):
recipient of this, and learningto take their input into the
design.
I think should just be the waythat we operate normally now.
When I went to engineeringschool, this wasn't even a topic
that was talked about.
Granted, I went many decadesago and I'm aging myself now,
but I now have this uniqueopportunity to teach and run
(19:21):
workshops at the Faculty ofEngineering at U of C, which is
my alma mater, and I'm so happyto see that such topics like you
know, the so-called soft skillsthat's.
You know, I don't really likethe term soft skills, but I'm
happy to see that skills likecommunication and teamwork and
inclusive leadership these areall things that are now being
(19:43):
talked about much more, even atan undergrad level, and I get to
go, have that opportunity to goand talk to students and help
teach these workshops to supporttheir skill building in those
areas, and it's something Ireally wish that I had, and I'm
just hoping that, as you know,time goes, we will start to
normalize these things and notnecessarily view them as two
(20:05):
separate things, but just theway and how we work.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
It's also really interesting tome how you've talked about time
and the importance of time, thetime that you took during COVID
, because prior to that, younever had the time, the time
that's needed to invest inrelationships before you can ask
(20:29):
people to change or to trustyou, before you can ask people
to change or to trust you.
And you know there's an adagethat says you know, the speed
with which decisions can bearrived at is dependent on the
level of trust there is in theroom, so that this trust and
time is there's a, you know it'sa.
They're very dependent on eachother, and so you know, our
(20:49):
listeners, do you have anyadvice for people when they're
considering a change about thehow to you know, take the
necessary time by which toevaluate, and how do you find
that time and how is that?
How important is it?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
You know this is one of the greatest precious
resources that you know all ofus have or don't have in some
cases.
Right is time, and everybodygets a finite amount in life.
And I think that's also one ofthe biggest challenges is how do
you make the time?
And I know for me that theknowledge of having done change
(21:35):
type initiatives, both throughmy career and also changing my
own career path, I know nowafter the fact when, in the
moment, I would be met with myown impatience of like oh, it's
just taking so long, you know,like I don't have the time to do
this.
But now, having done change afew times and then looking back,
going well, it was because Iinvested the time that I could
make this change work.
(21:56):
I have that foresight now forany other new projects that come
up that requires that type ofinvestment to go.
Okay, it's going to feelpainful and at the beginning,
but that's okay.
It's absolutely worth investingthe time that we have because
the payoff, I know, will be thatmuch better and I could
(22:17):
probably accomplish more laterbecause I took the time now to
do it right.
So I don't know if that helps,but I just I empathize that time
is a precious commodity andsometimes it can be hard to
justify investing as much as wedo to build relationships or to
just even take the time forourselves from a self-care
(22:39):
perspective, but it always,always pays off in the end.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yeah, and I mean organizational change is, you
know, as you said, manyexecutives.
They have, you know, kpis.
They've got targets to meet allof that and it's all very
important applying empathy toconversations and but also
personally, when we're goingthrough change, to just set the
(23:14):
time aside that's necessary todo that reflection of what we're
looking for yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
There's another, another adage that I love.
It says uh something around theeffect of change moves at the
speed of empathy, which I thinkis uh, really true and relevant,
and often I coach leaders tooto say, you know, don't feel
like you need three days at anoff-site to do this work.
It could literally look liketwo minutes when you're walking
(23:44):
down the hallway you're seeingsomeone your employee and you're
taking the time to actuallylisten to how they're doing.
Like you're asking how they'redoing, you're not on your phone,
you're asking them how they'redoing and you're taking the time
to actually listen to howthey're doing.
Like you're asking how they'redoing.
You're not on your phone,you're asking them how they're
doing and you're taking thosetwo minutes to listen to the
answer.
And that's two minutes.
And that's how we can continueto build on any change or even
(24:06):
empathy skills right, just bytaking that small incremental
actions wherever we can yeah sohow has the entrepreneurial
journey been for you?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
they've been ups downs.
Has it been fun, has it?
Do you ever question whatyou're doing?
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I, to be honest, I would say it's been a journey
that's been very fulfilling andfun, and also it hasn't been
without its challenges, and Ithink the challenging part of
that is something I also welcomebecause in the long run it's
taught me some really valuablelessons that I don't think I
(24:51):
would have had the opportunityto learn otherwise.
But it's been fulfilling.
I published a book last yearcalled Landed it's on the
stories of immigrant women inCanada and I was able to, you
know, apply this method ofguided autobiography, run
workshops in the community andhelp 37 women from 30 countries
(25:12):
of origin write their mostheartfelt immigration journey
for this book and I'm so proudof this project because, you
know, it takes a lot of courageto not only write but to put
your story out in the world andwithin two days it became a
bestseller, which to me,signaled that there's a lot of
interest that people have in notonly sharing their own story
(25:35):
but also listening to otherstories.
So that's been one of thehighlights, I would say, and
also the variety of clients thatI get to work with.
I'm really, really enjoyingthat.
I think, from a corporateperspective, in my previous
career that sort of varietywouldn't normally be had.
(25:55):
And now I get to work withuniversities, with school boards
, with for-profits, non-profits,and it's just such a wide range
that I'm really enjoying.
So I'd say those two things forsure.
The challenging part has beento try and doing things on your
own.
As you know, right, thelearning curve is deep, and I've
(26:16):
just now started to learn howto start to delegate and how to
find the right partners in thefirst place that are skilled at
different things that I'm notskilled at, which is the benefit
of diversity, right, and sobeing really diligent around
delegating the things that Iknow I'm not good at and
building those partnerships,that's been some of the learning
for me so far.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
So it sounds like you have a lot of energy.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
It sounds like you have a lot of energy.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
So I mean balancing that off with patience and
reflection.
I expect that you probably haveother places that you're going
to take this business.
What kind of vision do you havefor going forward?
Are you still getting thefoundation sort of settled
(27:08):
before you start doing otherthings, because I sense a lot of
creativity there.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Yeah, thank you for that question.
In terms of a long-term vision,what I would say is I see this
business being successful ifit's not just me hosting and
facilitating the types ofworkshops that I do.
I would love to be able to getto a point where I have a
train-the-trainer type of amodel where other people can be
(27:36):
trained and can start hostingtheir own storytelling workshops
.
I know, even from one of myprevious client projects, there
were 600 leaders in theorganization that needed
training, and when I signed onto this large enterprise
contract, my first reaction wasoh wow, how am I as a single
(27:57):
person going to do this bymyself?
And I started to realize theimportance of now building a
network.
I have co-facilitators now whoare starting to offer this
training as well, and I alsohave an online course that's
built that sets the foundationsfor folks.
So it's through more of thesetypes of steps that I I see
(28:20):
myself taking over the nextcouple of years.
I think this can be built to apoint where there's that
scalability as well.
So that is kind of my longerterm vision.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
I think that's more change coming.
Yeah, it's so exciting becauseit really aligns with where
Catherine and I are coming from,on stories and sharing stories,
because really that's how we,that's how we pass on our the
wisdom, I guess, around changeand transition.
So I think storytelling isthere's a lot more that can be
(28:53):
done in that area, for sure.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yeah, no for sure.
And you know, one of thequestions I often get from
leaders is just how do I tell mystory?
How do I feel Like, how do Ifirst know what story to tell
and then how do I tell it in away where it's still authentic
but, you know, doesn't sort ofput someone on the spot or
doesn't expose me, whatever.
That means, right, and I thinkjust even that vulnerability is
(29:21):
a very courageous thing.
To tell your story and justgiving leaders a space to
explore that a little bit is astarting point.
But the nice thing about thisand having done this now for
over two years, I see the impactand I see that um just creating
that space enables leaders tobe able to uh, feel more
(29:41):
confident to share their story.
So I really see it as astrategic business competency um
to build and it can servechange management, it can serve
inclusive leadership, it canserve all kinds of goals.
So hoping to see more of thatin the world well, what a
remarkable story you have.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
I mean, just to have the courage to see what else is
is out there.
I mean you were certainly on,I'm sure, a successful career
track as an engineer, uh, butthen just to see how things
could be better by, you know,focusing on inclusive leadership
and storytelling, I think it'squite remarkable.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
If you've learned just one thing about change
while listening to this podcast,please subscribe on Apple or
Spotify and share with a friend.
Please subscribe on Apple orSpotify and share with friend
this episode recorded via Zoomaudio.
Producers Peggy Koenig andCatherine Greiba.
Executive producer.
Koenig Leadership AdvisoryTheme music La Pompe, written by
(30:44):
Chris Harrington.
Music publisher Envato MarketFor information on this podcast
and to purchase some fabulousgoat merchandise.
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