March 21, 2023 • 40 mins
John Schmeelk sits down with former Falcons General Manager and current CEO of SumerSports, Thomas Dimitroff, to discuss the approach of the Giants’ front office, building the offense around Daniel Jones, and where the Giants can add value in the draft. SUBSCRIBE NOW: Apple | Spotify| Google |Stitcher| iHeart Radio 00:00 - Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll 10:03 - Finding wide receivers 11:40 - Focusing on speed 19:02 - Daniel Jones’ new deal 27:01 - Perimeter players in the draft
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's time to get inside the Giants Huddle on giants
dot Com. We go on the Giants part of the
Giants podcast Network. Welcome to another edition of the Giant
Huttle podcast, brought to you by psc and G Energy Efficiency.
For game time and anytime, visit PSEG dot com slash
Giants for discounts, rebates and home energy assessments. I'm John Schmelk,
(00:20):
and this week's Giants Huddle is longtime NFL scout, former
Patriots executive and thirteen year general manager of the Atlanta Falcons.
Now he's the CEO of Sumers Sports and Analytics Company.
He is Thomas Demitrof. Thomas, how are you, man? Welcome
to the Giants. He you make me sound really old, man, John,
Like not old, just important, just important, not old. I
(00:43):
got it, I got it. Happy to be here. Thanks
for having me. Not no problem. So I guess before
we kind of dig into some of the details here, Thomas,
why don't we just have you take your twenty thousand
foot view of where the Giants are in their second
year of the Shane Dable regime. Let me start by
saying this, because this is one hundred percent the truth
(01:04):
and I'm happy to laud both your general managing, your
head coach, Joe Shane, Brian day Ball. They come in
with really good reputations as being football man, tough guys, straightforward,
take care of business, and a year in all of
our contemporaries in the National Football League think very highly
(01:24):
of them. They have. They're kicking off there, you know
now under their second year with a lot of really
strong respect. That's not always easy John, in that first year,
a lot of people are still guessing and questioning. Of course,
Brian wins the Coach of the year. Did Joe Shane
win Executive of the Year? Well he should have. You know,
I'm a big believer in that that they need to
(01:45):
go hand in hand. I had some opportunities with Mike
Smith and it's a big thing, right, But I like
where where the organization is. Of course great people at
the league, of course at the very top with with
John Marrow. I mean, look, you guys have a sound,
such a sound organization that a lot of teams look
at and a lot of teams are jealous of it
(02:06):
as it pertains to the big picture and the moves
that they're making. I know we're going to go into
those details. I step back and I look at all
the teams that I'm looking at you over throughout the NFL,
and I just, I really want to say, two very
smart men with very thoughtful approaches, not haphazard. Everything seems
to have a really thought out approach to it, which
(02:26):
we'll get into when we're talking about the position moves looks.
That's the thing that Brian Daball, of course, brings from
the Patriots, right. They are thought they were always thought out.
I know he's not directly from the Patriots, but all
of us who have spent time with the Patriots, man,
you wouldn't have gotten out of that organization without having
that drilled into you, right. Bill Belichick used to teach
(02:49):
all of us and drill in into our heads along
with Scott Pioli. It was about you know your organization
better than anyone in this country, of course, media, anyone else.
As a head coach in the GM, you make your plans,
you make your you know your direction and your journey
along with your head coach, and don't look back. And
I just feels like they're doing that right. It feels
(03:10):
like they have a really strong opinion about how they
want approaching free agency, and then you have the draft here,
of course, which is another thing I'll talk about. But
I feel like they're looking in free agency, hitting on
some of the areas they need to hit on, resigning
where they need to resign, and then all of a sudden, Oh,
by the way, what do we have ten or eleven
draft picks? Yeah? I mean that's a great feeling John
(03:30):
going in knowing that the uncertainty of the draft has
been taken care of a little bit by making sure
that you've signed the guys you've signed in free agency.
They had eleven ten after the Darren Waller trade, which
we'll talk about a little bit more. And it's funny
you talk about planning right and having a vision. I
imagine though that Joe Sheen's vision probably at the change
a little bit when he got hired last year. I'm
(03:51):
sure he thought this was probably more of a teardown
rebuild situation. Then in the first year nine seven and one,
you make the plans, you win a playoff game. How
much you think he's had to alter and how for
someone that's been in that chair, do you have to
keep an open mind to be willing to alter what
your plan is based on what you see happen on
the field, which might be in sometimes unexpected in a
(04:14):
good way. Yeah. I think oftentimes when you're on the
outside looking in as a general manager, as a personnel director,
and as an assistant GM, you're hoping everything goes nice
and clean, and you have this compartmentalized approach the reality
as man. Once you cross that proverbial line, it's go
and you have to be agile. I mean, I continue
to talk to any of my contemporaries around the league
(04:37):
now that are in those spots and any of the
people that are rising to be in that spot. Agility, agility, agility, versatility.
We say the same thing, John, about players, Right, we
expect that out of players. Believe me, in today's world,
you expected out of general managers. And this, I mean
it's a it's an overused phrase and not for long,
but it's it's more not for long than ever in
(04:58):
this league, right, these guys coming out of it. I
mean back in the day general managers were making a
few hundred thousand dollars. These guys are making a lot
of money, A lot is riding on them, a lot
of pressure, John, and I would also say, a guy
like Joe, really together guy again, really nice background in football.
So to your point, he's gonna have to be able
to move, he's gonna have to have vision looking ahead.
(05:21):
And I feel like he's done that. He realizes now
he wasn't sure. I'm sure, as well as as as
Brian coming in to say what are we gonna do
with our quarterback? And what are we gonna do with
a running back? To me, those questions were answered, and
what a great feeling that was to say, Wow, we
worked with these guys, our system worked with these guys.
We're in the best place that we can be in
(05:43):
given the situation. Look, there are a lot of other
guys that get in that role as the first time
GM and they're pulling their hair out as they're going
through that first season with their so called pillar players,
and they're thinking, what are we going to do here?
That was already I'm sure mandya think about it, that
was taken care of, and in the back of their
mind like, Okay, that's a good, solid feeling. Now let's
(06:05):
get creative with how we're gonna put together this team. Yeah,
and now let's talk about how you put the team
together around those guys, right, because like I mentioned, nine
to seven and one, you know, won a lot of
close games, probably in a lot of people's mind overachieved
a little bit. So now how do you continue forward
here and build around that? Because you know ownership. I'm
sure in the fans you want to keep improving, you
(06:26):
want to do more, but if you try to do
too much, too fast, you can sometimes jeopardize your long
term goal right of being a super Bowl contender. So
how do you now build from this spot where you're
about five hundred team won a playoff game, but you
you know, still younger team and build the right way
to get where you want to go. I look, I
think it all starts with building around Daniel Jones. Right,
(06:47):
let's let's call the way it is. I had an
opportunity to do that with Matt Ryan, and we built
over the years at Matt was a very, very sound,
top tier quarterback. I did steal a page from from
the Bill Polian book, although heresy in New England, right,
We never wanted to say that we were pulling anything
from from Bill, and I like Bill a lot, have
a great deal of respect for him, of course, as
(07:08):
well as a coach Belichick. But the idea of surrounding
your quarterback and up and coming quarterback with the right players.
Of course, that's not rocket science, right, Let's see how
we do that. Let's get again creative with how we
do that. The the interesting parallel that I have here
in this this sort of interesting bond that I have,
which Joe Shane was, you know, in our second year
(07:30):
in Atlanta. Not to talk about Atlanta too much. With
Matt Ryan evolving every every game, every you know session,
every year in oh nine, if you remember, we traded
for Tony Gonzalez. So there's an interesting parallel. I'm not saying.
I'm not saying Darren Waller as Tony Gonzalez. I am
saying he's a damn good tight end, very athletic. You
(07:51):
put that athletic guy around a quarterback who's still growing
and evolving all the time. And Matt and Daniel Jones
have certain certain similarities. Daniel, believe me, is a much
better runner and a much better sort of athlete that way.
But they both were got They're just both such sound guys,
and you want to grow and get them better putting
(08:12):
a tight end around them. I can't tell you how
important that is now there there could be some people
out there that are saying, well, it's such a strong
draft class with tight ends, why wouldn't you wait, Well,
simply stated, I know how this is. You see you
see two third rounders there, right, that's what That's what
they doled out that one hundred Was it a one
hundred and one or one or whatever? Yeah? Yeah, it
(08:33):
was the compensatory pick that the chiefs Hede had given
him in the in the Tony trade. Right. So you
look as both Joe Shane and Brian Dabele are saying, Okay,
we have an opportunity to get a proven factor as
a tight end and not not projecting from from a
pick in the third round or whatever it may be.
That's a that's a settling feeling. Remember this is something
(08:54):
you know again that connection with with you know, with
Josh McDaniel and their general manager of course Zigs who
you know, we're in New England. The connection there is
a really important thing. So you can get some really
good background information on a player that's coming, you know,
from the Raiders. I think that's an important thing for them.
(09:14):
They realize they have an experienced guy. Yes, Dee Waller
has had some injuries. But if you guys believe that
you have, if the Giants believe that that they have
a really sound performance group, keep the guys healthy. I
would say that about any of the guys that you
brought in a little aside, whether it was you know,
whether it's Paris Campbell or whoever else has been necked
(09:35):
a little bit. Get him in the right situation where
they're training properly, and you guys have a really good
understanding of that, then you believe that you can keep
them healthy and then they can grow around Daniel Jones
starting with a tight end, starting with you know you
you all know that you need to continue to build
that receiver group. Everyone knows that, right who's going to
be the stud? Well, it's good to know while you're
(09:57):
looking for that stud receiver that you have a tight
end like who is as athletic as he is? And
I think that's a really important part point. All right, Well,
I guess I'll keep following all this line of thought.
Then how do you acquire a stud receiver? Now? Do
you have to draft him or do you have to
trade for one? Because it seems like the top top
true number ones don't even really reach free agency anymore. Right, Yeah,
(10:18):
I'm not I'm not going in free agency. I humble.
If I were to be Joe and and and Brian,
I'm done in free agency right now. That first wave
you might find someone down the line, and that you know,
those next two three weeks a wave, it wasn't like
it was the strongest group out there. I don't see
you guys going after Odell Beckham. I'm maybe I'm wrong.
(10:38):
I don't know. You could you could answer that question
or whoever it may be out there, I would really
focus in on that draft group. You know, the same thing.
The draft groups not not not being discussed as one
of these like top notch draft groups. But you can
find some good football players in there that you can develop.
You always have to keep your eye on finding. In
(10:59):
my mind, when we had Julio Jones of course, along
with with Um, with Tony Gonzalis, and then we just
kept building. We always had those receivers around Matt. You know,
we had Roddy White too, right, We had Roddy White exactly.
And then when it was time and Roddy was moving
on and and and Um and uh, Julio became the guy.
(11:19):
Of course we go after Calvin Ridley. That was unfortunate
because he was a really good football player. Of course
he had his gambling issue, but really important for us
to have that group always growing and evolving. And I
would suggest that's one of the things that your group
is going to say. They're like, got to always keep
a revolving group of receivers. They're fresh, fast, and ready
to go. I think you guys have some speed on
(11:40):
that in that group. Yeah. I was actually gonna ask,
how do you think about the way they're trying to
build that out a little bit, because it seemed like
this offseason they've really prioritized speed, right Slayton for three guy,
Paris Campbell for three guy. Even Jeff Smith, who hasn't
done a lot in the league, he's a really fast
player too. That you know, maybe they're going away from
those kind of bigger, contested catch guys and focusing on
breaders and speed, right man. I look, I look at that,
(12:02):
and I'm thinking, hands down, categorically you need speed. This
is a matchup league. Again. We we sit there and
we think about making sure that someone can rip the
top off to open it up underneath. Darren Wallers as
well as whoever else pays Campbell. That's a that's a
big thing in my mind. Right when again, back to
Julio quickly, this sounds crazy, and you'll hate to hear
(12:23):
this in your Giants fans that we'll hate to hear this.
But when when we were trying to figure out what
we were going to do back in eleven, we were
looking at other teams. We were obviously looking at your nemesis,
you know, we're looking at the Eagles, and we were
looking at receivers there that always kept us on our
heels on defense. Whether you threw the ball to Julio
Jones fourteen times or whether it was only three times.
(12:45):
You any route you ever ran with those guys that
can rip it off the top, it opens and creates
elements underneath that I think are really high percentage shots
for a guy like Daniel Jones as he continues to develop. Now,
you mentioned earlier you built around Matt Ryan in Atlanta
after you paid him. Right now, the Johnts have paid
Daniel Jones, so you have to be a little bit
(13:06):
more creative. It's not as easy as building around a
quarterback on a rookie contract. So how do you manage
the cap now moving forward, knowing what you have your
quarterback on and trying to build around him, Where can
you say, where do you think you have to spend?
How do you just holistically manage that cap to maximize
your window once you have paid your franchise quarterback. It's
(13:26):
a great question. It is of course all about cap management, right.
I mean, if you get a chance, and you get
a chance to go to the business and sport, you
know they do a great job. They're just explaining that
when there's this discussion like you can't win and you
can't build when you start paying your quarterback, there's no
question you can. I think if you do the calculations,
I think it's between twenty five and thirty of your
(13:48):
players are under rookie contracts. The cap, just to put
everyone's mind at ease, is set up to build in
this way. Rights, It's not just oh my god, we've
signed Daniel Jones in life is is over as we
know it. It's creativity, it's thinking. Look, there's a lot
of there's a lot of players back to versatility, and
there's a number three corners, the number three receivers. I mean,
(14:10):
what they're doing with the receivers right now, making sure
that you're smart and how you're putting together your offensive line. Again, John,
I don't want to go and talk about their philosophy,
but big picture philosophy. Every team has a different opinion
about where they want to save their money and what
position groupings they do. I'm a big believer in having
pillar positions taken care of almost at each position, and
(14:33):
then around those main studs you're building around them, and
some you're building down the liners. Right, you can get
some good football players out there that are the back
end of the roster that you're saving. I'm not a
big believer in spending a ton of money on those midline,
middle class veterans. There's a place for him, don't believe me.
(14:54):
I sit there and I think about Wink Martindale's comments
about Jiad, Right, wasn't he talking to the resigning there
and how he on some around there. Yes, you pay
some of those guys a little bit more money if
they're the leadership guys that you're looking for, But you
don't do that too often along your roster. You have
to be smart with how you're differentiating between a guy
that is truly a leader, veteran that you're gonna pay
(15:14):
a little bit more for and the young guy that
you want to develop. Look, one of the things I
think is vital and Brian Dayball has a really good
understanding of this. You have to develop the players. He's
working hand in hand with a very good general manager
and team builder. You have to develop. The teams out
there that don't develop. Won't go into naming some of
the head coaches over the years, they've failed ultimately because
(15:36):
they're just not willing as a staff to put the
time into develop. And that's a big part of it. Yeah,
and we'll get through this year's you have doing a
little bit where you have to get those players to develop,
get them on those rookie deals. Final team building question,
Tom's before we move on. The Giants have a lot
of fortunately I think pillar players unrookie contracts they haven't
paid yet. Dexter Lawrence, who maybe was the best defensive
(15:58):
tackle in football last year. Andrew Thomas one of the
better offensive tackles in football. You hope Evan Neil at
some point develops into that as well. He was even McKinney.
It's safety. How much planning and how do you plan
ahead knowing maybe you have these big contracts for very
important players coming down the road when you're trying to
manage your CAP. Take me through that as a former GM,
(16:18):
how you work that process? Yeah, I mean we're always
looking to two years, three years in advance. Of course,
that's really really important. And I will I will get
an opportunity to a lot another person in your building.
And Kevin abram Is is one of the very best
out there right. His knowledge of CAP, his vision of
CAP is a really big thing. So once again to
your your your listeners, I mean a bang up crew
(16:42):
of football people that are going to help in that way.
So as far as as far as Joe Shane's sitting
down with Kevin and co. And trying to figure out,
you know, what's next, that's a that's a process. It's
not always easy, right because you know, you can only
project so far, right John, I mean you never know
with injuries, I mean injuries in the end or the
things that we all pull our hair out over right,
(17:03):
it's so tough to to project those. But maybe if
I'm answering your question correctly, I think you're you know,
we always tended to look, you know in those two
years ahead especially, and you know, it's it's interesting because
I sit I would sit down with Dan Quinn on
those the final my final time there, and we would
always go over our our roster. I mean literally every
(17:27):
week we'd be talking about the next wave and who
who truly is rising, who truly is falling, and we
would monitor that, monitor that on our on our rosters,
right with basically proverbial arrows up and proverbial arrows down.
And if the players that were we were looking at
continue to have the arrows down, then of course we
were saying, look, coming up in the next year, we
(17:50):
know that this is not potentially a guy that we
will not be looking to, you know, secure on on
future deals. It's it's ever evolving and changing, and you
can have a head coach and a general manager who
have a really strong opinion about it, and ultimately they
are the ones that make the decision. Remember, however, there's
the coordinators on both sides and the position coaches who
(18:12):
have their opinions, which becomes a very complicated thing for
general manager when you're team building, right, because you're the
days of George Young where I would assume where there
was a lot of heavy pounding of a fist on
the table. No, this is what we're doing. I have
to suggest to most people that's not how it works
in the NFL. In today's world. It's a definite partnership
(18:33):
between the boat, both of the coach and the GM.
You're factoring in some of the you know, the coaches
that you trust as well as ownership, and you just
have to monitor along the way. And that's a long
winded way of saying. You have to be flexible, of course,
and you have to project. If it works out great,
If not, then it's obviously can be a black mark. Yeah,
(18:54):
I gotta imagine George Young did a lot of desk
pounding and then Parcels did a lot of yelling and cursing,
and they went back and forth and they had fun.
And that's kind of probably how that relationship win. All Right,
I'm already touched on some of these moves real quick.
You kind of talked about Daniel already, but your thoughts
on how they worked that contract getting him off that
tag and getting him on that long term deal. Look,
I was really happy to see that. I mean point blank,
(19:16):
going in knowing that you have a quarterback that you
can grow with as as a second year GM and
head coach man. It's a relief. I can't stress that enough.
Knowing that he could run, knowing that he you know,
he's he didn't have to deal with some of the
injuries that he had dealt with. Right, that's a that's
a big and important thing. Seeing the evolution of it.
Also doing the contract the way they did, I was
all for that. I was really happy because segues into
(19:38):
your next point. Right, you have a guy you're gonna
grow with, you believe in, and you trust, and it
gives you an opportunity to keep a running back. So
you truly are walking away as everyone knows, with your
two pillar players going into your second year. That is
a very reassuring feeling. And if you want to talk
about se Quon, I mean to me, I thought that
was well thought out once again, and it would be
(20:00):
exactly what I would have done. I had some discussions
with some of my my my our quant employees within
SUMER Sports, because of course everyone thinks they they have
strong opinions, right, and I said, put yourself in that seat.
You can have all these ideas about moving se Quon
or or not you know, or tagging you know, Daniel
on something like this and not getting a deal done.
(20:22):
The reality is you need to go into your second
year in this regime with solid and sound, and that's
what I think they've done. Do you think there's a
chance to get Barkley off that franchise tag or if
you're running the show, would you rather have him on
that tag and go year to year with the running back.
I would like to work on it, um. I think
it's important. He is, you know, obviously, is such a
(20:43):
good player, and he's such an important part of that organization.
If you can't, I wouldn't. I wouldn't be losing too
much sleep on it. To be honest with you, I
would stay there and I would say, Man, let's ride
this hard and let's see how it how it turns
out in the end. But I'm sure that se Quan's
have be that he's there. Maybe he would have wanted
a big deal, but you know, look, you got you
(21:03):
got a really cool team to be building with. I'm
sure he sees that and this is a great opportunity
for him to potentially take it to the next level
as a team. We talked about the waller on wide receivers.
Lay No reed to revisit that the big moves were
really on defense, and you know, it's a passing league.
I think we'll both agree with that. And you know,
adding interior defensive linemen and inside linebackers, you know, isn't sexy.
(21:25):
It's not going to go over the headlines. But I
will say this time, it's one of the most demoralizing
things I think for a team is watching another team
run the ball on you, and it makes it very
difficult to win football games. And that happened time and
time again. Eagles won for two hundred yards on the
ground against the Giants twice last year. They're in your division.
So to me, even though this is maybe not the
value play in the NFL, now, you have to be
(21:47):
competent against the run if you're gonna have a chance
on defense. And I think that was kind of the
guiding force. But you know, behind the Okaaka move and
the Rochester Nunyaz movie inside, Yeah, look, starting with the
Okaraka move, I mean, look, I'm all for that. I think,
of course, you guys, I say this respectfully, I mean,
interior they you guys need to continue to build the
(22:08):
interior there. Of course, as you just mentioned, getting a
stud type of linebacker in there, I love it. I'm
sure Wink Martindale loves the fact that he has someone
like that that he can build around. I believe, Okay, Key,
isn't he twenty six years old as well? He's got it,
so he's a young cat who you can continue to
grow with. Has a presidence. I know that there was
some talk out there where he was with his coverage skills,
(22:29):
but I think scheme related sometimes I can have something
to do with it. I think Wink has obviously a
very good idea of how he's going to play that
along with the run. So I'm I'm completely lauding that move.
I think that's a great move by by Joe and Brian.
So that's great. You know the d line. Just remember
this defensive line group in the in the draft, man,
(22:51):
you guys are I mean it is set up to
pull some really good football players interior guys. You watch
some of those guys out there in the draft, if
you've seen him at the combine, watching them run around,
watching the move, the explosiveness. I know it's not just
watching in the combine, but when you see some of
the athleticism there and the ability to move along the
line and make plays as well as you know, stack
(23:13):
it where you need to stag it. I think that's
gonna be fun to see where they go with all
those picks that you guys have and giants have. I
think it's it's gonna be great for them to pop
off maybe two or three important interior defensive people. Yeah. Absolutely,
all right, and now let's move on to the draft
here where the Giants still have to grow. And we've
talked about the wide receivers a little bit. You know,
they kind of have a bunch of these, you know,
(23:34):
guys that can play inside if stolen Shepherd comes back,
while the Robinson is an inside guy. And I feel
like this draft Thomas is littered with a bunch of
five nine, five ten elevenish type receivers that maybe some
people might see more slot guys at versus outside. Who
are some of the guys that you like day one,
day two, even early day three, that you think can
win outside consistently, even if they're not like you, you know,
(23:57):
your true x et cetera, et cetera. Quentin Johnsons are
all that stuff. But guys that maybe can convert their
skills to play outside and win as a separator outside
in the National Football League. I knew you were gonna
ask me this. I just finished my free agency work
and I need to really dig down. This is probably
not the answer you want to hear. I don't I
won't feel comfortable talking. Oh that's fine. I mean, of
(24:18):
course I know the main guys, but I look, I
want to be honest with you. I'm in a spot
right now where I really not need to now start
dipping in and watching all the video because I don't
normally like commenting on people without having some All right,
so tell us how about this. I'm gonna talk more thematically. Then,
what traits do you look for for players that maybe
you're not you're in classic six three, six four X.
(24:40):
Guys that you say, all right, this isn't a slot
only guy. We think we can play him and have
him win outside. Well, look, I mean that that versatility
element is big, and we had some good fortune in
Atlanta over the years by having that versatility guy who
you can move outside and still take it out up
the sideline of course, and underneath. I mean, look, hands down,
(25:00):
when you're talking about receivers. I'm sure you probably know this.
That separation ability, the awareness, separation ability and awareness. It
doesn't mean you always have to be a four to
three or four two guy. You can be a four
five five guy as long as you're sticking your foot
in the grass and you're able to separate. That's a
really really important element. As I mentioned, the awareness, the
(25:20):
awareness to know how you're going to break things off,
how you're going to play off of certain leverages that
the defensive backs are presenting you, of course is really important.
Of course, you have to have the ability to catch
around your body. Everyone knows that. I won't get into
just truly evaluating receivers, but when you're walking away from
guys that you can count on in versatility, the versatility
(25:41):
element brings five to six or seven of these traits
into play, and if you don't have them, obviously it's
it's going to be revealed quite quickly in my mind
as a receiver. So in the end, you in my mind,
we were very particular about getting a big guy. Of course,
we were hopefully going to have our one and two's
(26:02):
be guys that had size. Now, we did not do
that when we brought in Calvin Ridley because he was
a little smaller, but his separation was so good that
it counterbalanced that idea that we wanted two bigger guys.
That third guy. That third guy has the opportunity to
do everything stop start, the versatility to go in and out,
but loving the idea for him to be a legit
(26:22):
inside guy, which is important. And then you start thinking
about the rest of that group as you know how
important it is. There are special teams contributions that are
really important for these receivers, and sometimes people will say, well,
how do we overlook that? Or have we overlooked that?
If you can get a really good receiver who is
adept at special teams has the upside to be a three,
(26:44):
that is, that's a really sound place to be when
you're building your receiver group. Every once in a while
you get that guy who was a four or a
five as a special Teams contributor and he becomes your two.
That's when you've I think you've hit proverbial gold and
maybe not goal, but you've you've you've hit it. You
know you mentioned size. I think most people when they
(27:04):
think about wide receivers and even cornerbacks and size. They
think height and length, right, But I feel like at
these positions players are becoming a little bit lighter coming
out now too, are we Devanta Smith last year? You
have other guys this year, tank Elammanual Forbes of corners
one hundred and sixty something pounds are soaking wetty. You know,
it looks like a stick figure when you watch them
on tape. Without getting into the individual guys, where do
(27:24):
you think that weight factor comes into play? Thomas in
the evaluation? What makes you nervous about those guys on
the football field? Is it tackling for corners? It's this
thing healthy? Where does the weight and that sort of
thing play into it when you're looking at the perimeter
players as some of these guys just start getting a
little bit smaller. Are you referring to for both offense
and defense? Are you yeah? Yeah, but yeah, both sides.
(27:45):
You can take them both separately if you want. Yeah. Look,
I'm I'm I'm a huge believer in athleticism and movement, right, fluidity.
That's a big thing for me. Right back to what
we say, it's a matchup league. If you can't match
up in that corner, you know, corner receiver mode because
you're plotting and heavy legged was what we refer to.
I don't even know if that's a word. I think
(28:06):
it's something we created. This works for me, legged I've
often wondered. But the reality is making sure that you
can that you have the movement and the athleticism and
the explosiveness to stay as you know, the phrase stay
in phase is really really important. So when you see
those guys out there that are all shredded up and
they maybe eighty five eighty seventy five, seventy five starts
(28:27):
to get a little light, but you know, as you
had mentioned in Philly, I mean, they have a really
good receiver there that can do all kinds of crazy things.
You hope that you guys don't hope this. They hope
that healthy, of course, But I will say I'm not
that concerned. I do start getting concerned when you're in
the low seventies. And we had this before. When a
(28:48):
guy starts teetering, he comes in at seventy three as
a corner or a receiver, and believe me, when he
comes into camp at seventy three, he's getting down to
sixty eight to sixty five you're in a complete different world.
It's like you and I. I don't know what your
weight is, but it's like, why Yeah, But you get
those guys where you're always trying to get them up
(29:09):
and you're trying to you know, fatten them up, so
to speak. But then you don't want them to be
one eighty because they're over their limits and they become
they're not as quick and fast and explosive as you want.
You really want that guy who's solid and sound at eighty,
but seventy five can you can deal with it and
then know that he's not going to be falling down
into the sixties? All right? I got two more quickly
(29:30):
before he said goodbye, Thomas, thank you for the time.
This has been great int your offensive line, it's something
the Giants have been working on. Do you feel like
you have to be great in there? Do you just
look for competency? I know it's not considered, you know,
one of those premium positions. How do you How did
you approach that int your offensive line and trying to
get that built in front of Matt Ryan, who as
a pocket passer really didn't like to have guys coming
(29:50):
into you know, right in his face. Well, that's a
great point. I mean, look, you can take Daniel and
you take Matt Ryan as well, right again, suggesting that
Daniel was that much more fluid and mood. What we
what we realized very quickly on that honestly, Matt could
drop back and deal with the perimeter rush. It was
that rush coming up in his face that could be
(30:12):
devastating for us at times. One of the big reasons
I never ever thought in my early years that I
would use a big time free agent move on an
interior guy. Bring in and Alex Mack was one of
the best free agent moves in the thirteen years that
I was there that I felt that that we, you know,
we followed through on. He set such a tone right
that center not only his intelligence and everything his presence,
(30:34):
sit his ass down in there, anchor and punch, move
and pass things off by having him along with a
really sound right guard in Chris Lindstrom, who just got
Um signed to a really big contract. Interestingly enough, we
were inconsistent over those years to have the three. Every
(30:55):
year we one position in there was kind of lacking,
and I thought the teams that were playing us saw
that one position and before you know what, they were
pressuring Matt in a certain way. So the three are
really important. Of course, I believe the center is. But
if you can pull those three together, you don't necessarily
have to pay a ton of money. Consistency is a
huge thing for me, right, and you need a guy
(31:18):
that's going to be able to sit in there and
prevent the pocket from collapsing, which we know that's not
again rocket science. Consistency to anchor properly. And of course,
if you have the right if you have the right
run game, let's not get away from that. If your
run game is sound and you can take some pressure
off your quarterback along with good not necessarily great interior guys,
(31:39):
I think you have a chance to do some really
special things on an offensive side of the ball. All right,
final question, big picture, NFC East record wise, best division
of football ash year. I think they're out of division.
Schedule had something to do with the winning percentages there.
But look, Philly's awesome. Dallas I think got better this
offseason with the additions they've made. Washington's got a good
roster if they could figure out the quarterback. But then
(32:00):
generally the NFC is it's kind of wide open, right.
I mean, you look at all the super quarterbacks, they're
kind of all in the AFC. We'll see where Aaron
Rodgers winds up, obviously, just your thoughts on the division
and the conference and if visually a window here in
the NFC to try to make a run. Look, I'm
gonna lead off, so mister Marris, happy that I'm on
your website here, but look, I mean where you guys
(32:20):
are right now will lead in. I just as I
mentioned at the outset, I really liked the thoughtfulness of
this organization, and I like the fact that you guys
are investing where you need to be investing as as
a Giants organization. I think that's really really important, and
I think great things ahead, quite honestly, given your leadership.
You look at Philadelphia and Howie Roseman and I have
(32:42):
always been you know, we've always been friends and contemporaries
and competitive over the years. And you know I've told
him recently, I mean their team this year, as you
well know anyone who follows it there, they are really
really together. They're they're playing so well. Back to the
year and you know, back in seventeen when they beat
(33:04):
our asses down the stretch going in the Super Bowl.
To me, their their football team this year was exponentially
better than it was that year winning the Super Bowl.
Obviously things fell apart. I think they come back with
a vengeance as well. You know, obviously they have a
head coach who knows what he's doing there. They're building together,
is pulled together really well. They're another very thoughtful team
(33:25):
in the league. And you know, again defensively, offensive line.
I think they come to the table and it's gonna
be tough. They're gonna be tough to beat once again.
As much as you hate hearing that, I get that agree.
I saw how he Roseman the other day. I don't
know if you saw it. He was taking a shot
with Kelsey of Mescal And by the way, just so
you guys know, he's a part owner in that company.
(33:46):
He didn't necessarily say that, so I think he was
doing a little bit of marketing there. How he is
always he's always the businessman, right, So Philly, you know,
you sit there and you think about Dallas. I'm a
big fan of dan Quinn as you know, right. I
think what they're doing there with their defense, they kept people,
they continue to build there and be smart there. Moving
on from a running back there that I heard Dak
(34:07):
Prett Scott like basically crying in is you know soup
so to speak. Like that's a tough one, right, See
what's going to happen there. They are a good football
team as well. I'm not that versed in what's going
on in Washington. I just think with you guys, with
Philly and Dallas, Man, that's gonna be a that's gonna
be a real show to see how that plays out
(34:29):
in and out every every game down, you know, throughout
the season. Thomas, this was fantastic, very educational. I know
I learned a lot of hope our listeners did as well.
Tell everybody about what you're doing with with sumer Sports
and anything you want them to know about you and
your company. Yeah, just if you get a chance, go
to sumersports dot com. We have a ton of content there.
We are a roster optimization tool. Basically our clients are
(34:53):
the NFL of course as it stands right now. Of
course there's all ultimately all kinds of business opportunity. Roster
optimization is a big thing. I'll leave you with this.
We can take thirty two general managers right now, sit
them in this room, and they would raise their hand,
every one of them and say absolutely, not in exact
science what we're doing. Absolutely if they're being honest, even
(35:15):
though the owners don't want to hear this so they
don't want to necessarily say it to the owners, there
needs there needs to be more exactness in the way
that we're approaching our roster building. I've been in the
league for over I've been in the league almost for
thirty years. I've been around it all my life. My
dad was a football coach, and I always thought there's
got to be a better way, and I have a
(35:35):
great deal of confidence in my ability to evaluate. But
there is an augmentation element there. There's data out there,
and I use this line it sounds very exaggerated, criminally
underutilized data within every organization out there, that if a
general manager opens up, understands the old school side of
(35:56):
football and utilizes roster optimization data, it can only make
them that much better. I maintain that it can take
the good GM from being good to being very good,
and the very good to being to being a Hall
of Famer, and in the end, roster optimization allows us.
I used to go to Arthur Blank and I'd say, Arthur,
I have twelve scenarios. And I was proud as a
(36:18):
peacock that I had twelve offseason scenarios. What we are
doing with Sumer Sports with our algorithms. It's an advanced
algorithm that has over fifty four models building and growing.
What it truly does is it allows that algorithm to
present for each specific team they're optimal fifty three roster.
(36:38):
Doesn't mean you have to go with it. It allows
this algorithm to produce millions and millions of options, unlike
my twelve. Doesn't mean you're going to pour through a million.
But you could say, Sumer, give me your top three
roster optimization rosters for the New York Giants and they
would and Joe Shane would be able to look at
(36:58):
it compared to what they have, and then it just
starts the juxtaposition element, which we're really, really really focused on.
We think this can revolutionize our founder last thing, our
founder and chairman is Paul Tutor Jones. Paul is one
of the most famous macro traders in the world right
so he has a massively in depth understanding of roster
(37:22):
or portfolio management and modern portfolio theory is a big
part of what we're doing here. So again it brings
all school football with me being there being the domain
expert as a CEO, along with our thirty quants and
engineers to really hone in on trying to build something
that we think is revolutionary. Well, I'm really happy we
spend a lot of this conversation on team building given
(37:43):
what you guys are doing, and you've piqued my interest,
so I have to follow up. You're real quick, give
me one or two, and I want you to give
the algum with the way beause that kind of defeats
the point of people paying you to do this for them, obviously,
But give me one or two of them. Would you
think are the to quote you criminally underutilized data point
that teams maybe ignore but they shouldn't that maybe we
should keep an eye on. Well, look, I've stated this
(38:06):
way when I said we have fifty four models and growing,
I mean those models are all based around aging curves,
financial curves, um you know, participation there within those Within
all of those curves, I could go on and on
listening there's subsets within their are what our wildly intelligent
group is I call them the intelligencia. Right, I sit
(38:27):
down with some of these guys, blown away, how smart
they are. I learn every day from them. I hope
that I'm imparting some you know, sort of domain information
and expertise to them so that we can grow. What
I'm ultimately saying is we can continue to grow and
provide that data that's in the building that that next
gem Stats supplies. Too often, I will say this as well,
(38:51):
there is no organization out there that has probably more
than three, four or five people in their in their
data departments. We again coming to the table with over
thirty and growing towards fifty. We think that we can
be that group that can provide the NFL teams with
the man and woman power that we know that they
need to as far as pouring into the data that's
(39:13):
sitting there in their organizations that can be utilized. Again,
it's in our leag Just so you know this back
to football, any of us that have a long standing
scouting background and football background, we are all about juxtaposition.
It's about comparing, right, It's about taking those ten top
corners that you're looking at, or inside linebackers or guards
(39:34):
and being able to utilize Sumer Sports in this situation
to be able to run your numbers on all of
those players, to truly see what our models are saying
is the true order versus what you may be and
your scouts as an organization may be looking at. And
in the end it's your job as an organization to override.
(39:55):
We are suggesting what we know, given everything we're taken
into consideration. What we believe is you know the best.
And I will say this the last thing this is
I would not have taken a job like this. I
would have tried to get back into the NFL and
worked my way back up towards a general manager job.
But the opportunity to be in something like this that
I know I've been looking at for years and years
that there has to be a better way to truly
(40:19):
evaluate at the core. And I'm excited about where we're going.
Thomas Dimtchef, CEO of Sumer Sports, Go check it out.
That's sum Ere. You can see it in the lower
third on the screen. Was joining us to the John
Suttle Podcast, brought you by PSC and G Thomas. Great stuff.
We really appreciate the time. Best of luck and we'll
talk to you down the road. Look forward to talking again.
Thank you, John, thanks for being with us, everybody. We'll
see you next time on the John Suttle Podcast.
It's time to get inside the Giants Huddle on giants
dot Com. We go on the Giants part of the
Giants podcast Network. Welcome to another edition of the Giant
Huttle podcast, brought to you by psc and G Energy Efficiency.
For game time and anytime, visit PSEG dot com slash
Giants for discounts, rebates and home energy assessments. I'm John Schmelk,
(00:20):
and this week's Giants Huddle is longtime NFL scout, former
Patriots executive and thirteen year general manager of the Atlanta Falcons.
Now he's the CEO of Sumers Sports and Analytics Company.
He is Thomas Demitrof. Thomas, how are you, man? Welcome
to the Giants. He you make me sound really old, man, John,
Like not old, just important, just important, not old. I
(00:43):
got it, I got it. Happy to be here. Thanks
for having me. Not no problem. So I guess before
we kind of dig into some of the details here, Thomas,
why don't we just have you take your twenty thousand
foot view of where the Giants are in their second
year of the Shane Dable regime. Let me start by
saying this, because this is one hundred percent the truth
(01:04):
and I'm happy to laud both your general managing, your
head coach, Joe Shane, Brian day Ball. They come in
with really good reputations as being football man, tough guys, straightforward,
take care of business, and a year in all of
our contemporaries in the National Football League think very highly
(01:24):
of them. They have. They're kicking off there, you know
now under their second year with a lot of really
strong respect. That's not always easy John, in that first year,
a lot of people are still guessing and questioning. Of course,
Brian wins the Coach of the year. Did Joe Shane
win Executive of the Year? Well he should have. You know,
I'm a big believer in that that they need to
(01:45):
go hand in hand. I had some opportunities with Mike
Smith and it's a big thing, right, But I like
where where the organization is. Of course great people at
the league, of course at the very top with with
John Marrow. I mean, look, you guys have a sound,
such a sound organization that a lot of teams look
at and a lot of teams are jealous of it
(02:06):
as it pertains to the big picture and the moves
that they're making. I know we're going to go into
those details. I step back and I look at all
the teams that I'm looking at you over throughout the NFL,
and I just, I really want to say, two very
smart men with very thoughtful approaches, not haphazard. Everything seems
to have a really thought out approach to it, which
(02:26):
we'll get into when we're talking about the position moves looks.
That's the thing that Brian Daball, of course, brings from
the Patriots, right. They are thought they were always thought out.
I know he's not directly from the Patriots, but all
of us who have spent time with the Patriots, man,
you wouldn't have gotten out of that organization without having
that drilled into you, right. Bill Belichick used to teach
(02:49):
all of us and drill in into our heads along
with Scott Pioli. It was about you know your organization
better than anyone in this country, of course, media, anyone else.
As a head coach in the GM, you make your plans,
you make your you know your direction and your journey
along with your head coach, and don't look back. And
I just feels like they're doing that right. It feels
(03:10):
like they have a really strong opinion about how they
want approaching free agency, and then you have the draft here,
of course, which is another thing I'll talk about. But
I feel like they're looking in free agency, hitting on
some of the areas they need to hit on, resigning
where they need to resign, and then all of a sudden, Oh,
by the way, what do we have ten or eleven
draft picks? Yeah? I mean that's a great feeling John
(03:30):
going in knowing that the uncertainty of the draft has
been taken care of a little bit by making sure
that you've signed the guys you've signed in free agency.
They had eleven ten after the Darren Waller trade, which
we'll talk about a little bit more. And it's funny
you talk about planning right and having a vision. I
imagine though that Joe Sheen's vision probably at the change
a little bit when he got hired last year. I'm
(03:51):
sure he thought this was probably more of a teardown
rebuild situation. Then in the first year nine seven and one,
you make the plans, you win a playoff game. How
much you think he's had to alter and how for
someone that's been in that chair, do you have to
keep an open mind to be willing to alter what
your plan is based on what you see happen on
the field, which might be in sometimes unexpected in a
(04:14):
good way. Yeah. I think oftentimes when you're on the
outside looking in as a general manager, as a personnel director,
and as an assistant GM, you're hoping everything goes nice
and clean, and you have this compartmentalized approach the reality
as man. Once you cross that proverbial line, it's go
and you have to be agile. I mean, I continue
to talk to any of my contemporaries around the league
(04:37):
now that are in those spots and any of the
people that are rising to be in that spot. Agility, agility, agility, versatility.
We say the same thing, John, about players, Right, we
expect that out of players. Believe me, in today's world,
you expected out of general managers. And this, I mean
it's a it's an overused phrase and not for long,
but it's it's more not for long than ever in
(04:58):
this league, right, these guys coming out of it. I
mean back in the day general managers were making a
few hundred thousand dollars. These guys are making a lot
of money, A lot is riding on them, a lot
of pressure, John, and I would also say, a guy
like Joe, really together guy again, really nice background in football.
So to your point, he's gonna have to be able
to move, he's gonna have to have vision looking ahead.
(05:21):
And I feel like he's done that. He realizes now
he wasn't sure. I'm sure, as well as as as
Brian coming in to say what are we gonna do
with our quarterback? And what are we gonna do with
a running back? To me, those questions were answered, and
what a great feeling that was to say, Wow, we
worked with these guys, our system worked with these guys.
We're in the best place that we can be in
(05:43):
given the situation. Look, there are a lot of other
guys that get in that role as the first time
GM and they're pulling their hair out as they're going
through that first season with their so called pillar players,
and they're thinking, what are we going to do here?
That was already I'm sure mandya think about it, that
was taken care of, and in the back of their
mind like, Okay, that's a good, solid feeling. Now let's
(06:05):
get creative with how we're gonna put together this team. Yeah,
and now let's talk about how you put the team
together around those guys, right, because like I mentioned, nine
to seven and one, you know, won a lot of
close games, probably in a lot of people's mind overachieved
a little bit. So now how do you continue forward
here and build around that? Because you know ownership. I'm
sure in the fans you want to keep improving, you
(06:26):
want to do more, but if you try to do
too much, too fast, you can sometimes jeopardize your long
term goal right of being a super Bowl contender. So
how do you now build from this spot where you're
about five hundred team won a playoff game, but you
you know, still younger team and build the right way
to get where you want to go. I look, I
think it all starts with building around Daniel Jones. Right,
(06:47):
let's let's call the way it is. I had an
opportunity to do that with Matt Ryan, and we built
over the years at Matt was a very, very sound,
top tier quarterback. I did steal a page from from
the Bill Polian book, although heresy in New England, right,
We never wanted to say that we were pulling anything
from from Bill, and I like Bill a lot, have
a great deal of respect for him, of course, as
(07:08):
well as a coach Belichick. But the idea of surrounding
your quarterback and up and coming quarterback with the right players.
Of course, that's not rocket science, right, Let's see how
we do that. Let's get again creative with how we
do that. The the interesting parallel that I have here
in this this sort of interesting bond that I have,
which Joe Shane was, you know, in our second year
(07:30):
in Atlanta. Not to talk about Atlanta too much. With
Matt Ryan evolving every every game, every you know session,
every year in oh nine, if you remember, we traded
for Tony Gonzalez. So there's an interesting parallel. I'm not saying.
I'm not saying Darren Waller as Tony Gonzalez. I am
saying he's a damn good tight end, very athletic. You
(07:51):
put that athletic guy around a quarterback who's still growing
and evolving all the time. And Matt and Daniel Jones
have certain certain similarities. Daniel, believe me, is a much
better runner and a much better sort of athlete that way.
But they both were got They're just both such sound guys,
and you want to grow and get them better putting
(08:12):
a tight end around them. I can't tell you how
important that is now there there could be some people
out there that are saying, well, it's such a strong
draft class with tight ends, why wouldn't you wait, Well,
simply stated, I know how this is. You see you
see two third rounders there, right, that's what That's what
they doled out that one hundred Was it a one
hundred and one or one or whatever? Yeah? Yeah, it
(08:33):
was the compensatory pick that the chiefs Hede had given
him in the in the Tony trade. Right. So you
look as both Joe Shane and Brian Dabele are saying, Okay,
we have an opportunity to get a proven factor as
a tight end and not not projecting from from a
pick in the third round or whatever it may be.
That's a that's a settling feeling. Remember this is something
(08:54):
you know again that connection with with you know, with
Josh McDaniel and their general manager of course Zigs who
you know, we're in New England. The connection there is
a really important thing. So you can get some really
good background information on a player that's coming, you know,
from the Raiders. I think that's an important thing for them.
(09:14):
They realize they have an experienced guy. Yes, Dee Waller
has had some injuries. But if you guys believe that
you have, if the Giants believe that that they have
a really sound performance group, keep the guys healthy. I
would say that about any of the guys that you
brought in a little aside, whether it was you know,
whether it's Paris Campbell or whoever else has been necked
(09:35):
a little bit. Get him in the right situation where
they're training properly, and you guys have a really good
understanding of that, then you believe that you can keep
them healthy and then they can grow around Daniel Jones
starting with a tight end, starting with you know you
you all know that you need to continue to build
that receiver group. Everyone knows that, right who's going to
be the stud? Well, it's good to know while you're
(09:57):
looking for that stud receiver that you have a tight
end like who is as athletic as he is? And
I think that's a really important part point. All right, Well,
I guess I'll keep following all this line of thought.
Then how do you acquire a stud receiver? Now? Do
you have to draft him or do you have to
trade for one? Because it seems like the top top
true number ones don't even really reach free agency anymore. Right, Yeah,
(10:18):
I'm not I'm not going in free agency. I humble.
If I were to be Joe and and and Brian,
I'm done in free agency right now. That first wave
you might find someone down the line, and that you know,
those next two three weeks a wave, it wasn't like
it was the strongest group out there. I don't see
you guys going after Odell Beckham. I'm maybe I'm wrong.
(10:38):
I don't know. You could you could answer that question
or whoever it may be out there, I would really
focus in on that draft group. You know, the same thing.
The draft groups not not not being discussed as one
of these like top notch draft groups. But you can
find some good football players in there that you can develop.
You always have to keep your eye on finding. In
(10:59):
my mind, when we had Julio Jones of course, along
with with Um, with Tony Gonzalis, and then we just
kept building. We always had those receivers around Matt. You know,
we had Roddy White too, right, We had Roddy White exactly.
And then when it was time and Roddy was moving
on and and and Um and uh, Julio became the guy.
(11:19):
Of course we go after Calvin Ridley. That was unfortunate
because he was a really good football player. Of course
he had his gambling issue, but really important for us
to have that group always growing and evolving. And I
would suggest that's one of the things that your group
is going to say. They're like, got to always keep
a revolving group of receivers. They're fresh, fast, and ready
to go. I think you guys have some speed on
(11:40):
that in that group. Yeah. I was actually gonna ask,
how do you think about the way they're trying to
build that out a little bit, because it seemed like
this offseason they've really prioritized speed, right Slayton for three guy,
Paris Campbell for three guy. Even Jeff Smith, who hasn't
done a lot in the league, he's a really fast
player too. That you know, maybe they're going away from
those kind of bigger, contested catch guys and focusing on
breaders and speed, right man. I look, I look at that,
(12:02):
and I'm thinking, hands down, categorically you need speed. This
is a matchup league. Again. We we sit there and
we think about making sure that someone can rip the
top off to open it up underneath. Darren Wallers as
well as whoever else pays Campbell. That's a that's a
big thing in my mind. Right when again, back to
Julio quickly, this sounds crazy, and you'll hate to hear
(12:23):
this in your Giants fans that we'll hate to hear this.
But when when we were trying to figure out what
we were going to do back in eleven, we were
looking at other teams. We were obviously looking at your nemesis,
you know, we're looking at the Eagles, and we were
looking at receivers there that always kept us on our
heels on defense. Whether you threw the ball to Julio
Jones fourteen times or whether it was only three times.
(12:45):
You any route you ever ran with those guys that
can rip it off the top, it opens and creates
elements underneath that I think are really high percentage shots
for a guy like Daniel Jones as he continues to develop. Now,
you mentioned earlier you built around Matt Ryan in Atlanta
after you paid him. Right now, the Johnts have paid
Daniel Jones, so you have to be a little bit
(13:06):
more creative. It's not as easy as building around a
quarterback on a rookie contract. So how do you manage
the cap now moving forward, knowing what you have your
quarterback on and trying to build around him, Where can
you say, where do you think you have to spend?
How do you just holistically manage that cap to maximize
your window once you have paid your franchise quarterback. It's
(13:26):
a great question. It is of course all about cap management, right.
I mean, if you get a chance, and you get
a chance to go to the business and sport, you
know they do a great job. They're just explaining that
when there's this discussion like you can't win and you
can't build when you start paying your quarterback, there's no
question you can. I think if you do the calculations,
I think it's between twenty five and thirty of your
(13:48):
players are under rookie contracts. The cap, just to put
everyone's mind at ease, is set up to build in
this way. Rights, It's not just oh my god, we've
signed Daniel Jones in life is is over as we
know it. It's creativity, it's thinking. Look, there's a lot
of there's a lot of players back to versatility, and
there's a number three corners, the number three receivers. I mean,
(14:10):
what they're doing with the receivers right now, making sure
that you're smart and how you're putting together your offensive line. Again, John,
I don't want to go and talk about their philosophy,
but big picture philosophy. Every team has a different opinion
about where they want to save their money and what
position groupings they do. I'm a big believer in having
pillar positions taken care of almost at each position, and
(14:33):
then around those main studs you're building around them, and
some you're building down the liners. Right, you can get
some good football players out there that are the back
end of the roster that you're saving. I'm not a
big believer in spending a ton of money on those midline,
middle class veterans. There's a place for him, don't believe me.
(14:54):
I sit there and I think about Wink Martindale's comments
about Jiad, Right, wasn't he talking to the resigning there
and how he on some around there. Yes, you pay
some of those guys a little bit more money if
they're the leadership guys that you're looking for, But you
don't do that too often along your roster. You have
to be smart with how you're differentiating between a guy
that is truly a leader, veteran that you're gonna pay
(15:14):
a little bit more for and the young guy that
you want to develop. Look, one of the things I
think is vital and Brian Dayball has a really good
understanding of this. You have to develop the players. He's
working hand in hand with a very good general manager
and team builder. You have to develop. The teams out
there that don't develop. Won't go into naming some of
the head coaches over the years, they've failed ultimately because
(15:36):
they're just not willing as a staff to put the
time into develop. And that's a big part of it. Yeah,
and we'll get through this year's you have doing a
little bit where you have to get those players to develop,
get them on those rookie deals. Final team building question,
Tom's before we move on. The Giants have a lot
of fortunately I think pillar players unrookie contracts they haven't
paid yet. Dexter Lawrence, who maybe was the best defensive
(15:58):
tackle in football last year. Andrew Thomas one of the
better offensive tackles in football. You hope Evan Neil at
some point develops into that as well. He was even McKinney.
It's safety. How much planning and how do you plan
ahead knowing maybe you have these big contracts for very
important players coming down the road when you're trying to
manage your CAP. Take me through that as a former GM,
(16:18):
how you work that process? Yeah, I mean we're always
looking to two years, three years in advance. Of course,
that's really really important. And I will I will get
an opportunity to a lot another person in your building.
And Kevin abram Is is one of the very best
out there right. His knowledge of CAP, his vision of
CAP is a really big thing. So once again to
your your your listeners, I mean a bang up crew
(16:42):
of football people that are going to help in that way.
So as far as as far as Joe Shane's sitting
down with Kevin and co. And trying to figure out,
you know, what's next, that's a that's a process. It's
not always easy, right because you know, you can only
project so far, right John, I mean you never know
with injuries, I mean injuries in the end or the
things that we all pull our hair out over right,
(17:03):
it's so tough to to project those. But maybe if
I'm answering your question correctly, I think you're you know,
we always tended to look, you know in those two
years ahead especially, and you know, it's it's interesting because
I sit I would sit down with Dan Quinn on
those the final my final time there, and we would
always go over our our roster. I mean literally every
(17:27):
week we'd be talking about the next wave and who
who truly is rising, who truly is falling, and we
would monitor that, monitor that on our on our rosters,
right with basically proverbial arrows up and proverbial arrows down.
And if the players that were we were looking at
continue to have the arrows down, then of course we
were saying, look, coming up in the next year, we
(17:50):
know that this is not potentially a guy that we
will not be looking to, you know, secure on on
future deals. It's it's ever evolving and changing, and you
can have a head coach and a general manager who
have a really strong opinion about it, and ultimately they
are the ones that make the decision. Remember, however, there's
the coordinators on both sides and the position coaches who
(18:12):
have their opinions, which becomes a very complicated thing for
general manager when you're team building, right, because you're the
days of George Young where I would assume where there
was a lot of heavy pounding of a fist on
the table. No, this is what we're doing. I have
to suggest to most people that's not how it works
in the NFL. In today's world. It's a definite partnership
(18:33):
between the boat, both of the coach and the GM.
You're factoring in some of the you know, the coaches
that you trust as well as ownership, and you just
have to monitor along the way. And that's a long
winded way of saying. You have to be flexible, of course,
and you have to project. If it works out great,
If not, then it's obviously can be a black mark. Yeah,
(18:54):
I gotta imagine George Young did a lot of desk
pounding and then Parcels did a lot of yelling and cursing,
and they went back and forth and they had fun.
And that's kind of probably how that relationship win. All Right,
I'm already touched on some of these moves real quick.
You kind of talked about Daniel already, but your thoughts
on how they worked that contract getting him off that
tag and getting him on that long term deal. Look,
I was really happy to see that. I mean point blank,
(19:16):
going in knowing that you have a quarterback that you
can grow with as as a second year GM and
head coach man. It's a relief. I can't stress that enough.
Knowing that he could run, knowing that he you know,
he's he didn't have to deal with some of the
injuries that he had dealt with. Right, that's a that's
a big and important thing. Seeing the evolution of it.
Also doing the contract the way they did, I was
all for that. I was really happy because segues into
(19:38):
your next point. Right, you have a guy you're gonna
grow with, you believe in, and you trust, and it
gives you an opportunity to keep a running back. So
you truly are walking away as everyone knows, with your
two pillar players going into your second year. That is
a very reassuring feeling. And if you want to talk
about se Quon, I mean to me, I thought that
was well thought out once again, and it would be
(20:00):
exactly what I would have done. I had some discussions
with some of my my my our quant employees within
SUMER Sports, because of course everyone thinks they they have
strong opinions, right, and I said, put yourself in that seat.
You can have all these ideas about moving se Quon
or or not you know, or tagging you know, Daniel
on something like this and not getting a deal done.
(20:22):
The reality is you need to go into your second
year in this regime with solid and sound, and that's
what I think they've done. Do you think there's a
chance to get Barkley off that franchise tag or if
you're running the show, would you rather have him on
that tag and go year to year with the running back.
I would like to work on it, um. I think
it's important. He is, you know, obviously, is such a
(20:43):
good player, and he's such an important part of that organization.
If you can't, I wouldn't. I wouldn't be losing too
much sleep on it. To be honest with you, I
would stay there and I would say, Man, let's ride
this hard and let's see how it how it turns
out in the end. But I'm sure that se Quan's
have be that he's there. Maybe he would have wanted
a big deal, but you know, look, you got you
(21:03):
got a really cool team to be building with. I'm
sure he sees that and this is a great opportunity
for him to potentially take it to the next level
as a team. We talked about the waller on wide receivers.
Lay No reed to revisit that the big moves were
really on defense, and you know, it's a passing league.
I think we'll both agree with that. And you know,
adding interior defensive linemen and inside linebackers, you know, isn't sexy.
(21:25):
It's not going to go over the headlines. But I
will say this time, it's one of the most demoralizing
things I think for a team is watching another team
run the ball on you, and it makes it very
difficult to win football games. And that happened time and
time again. Eagles won for two hundred yards on the
ground against the Giants twice last year. They're in your division.
So to me, even though this is maybe not the
value play in the NFL, now, you have to be
(21:47):
competent against the run if you're gonna have a chance
on defense. And I think that was kind of the
guiding force. But you know, behind the Okaaka move and
the Rochester Nunyaz movie inside, Yeah, look, starting with the
Okaraka move, I mean, look, I'm all for that. I think,
of course, you guys, I say this respectfully, I mean,
interior they you guys need to continue to build the
(22:08):
interior there. Of course, as you just mentioned, getting a
stud type of linebacker in there, I love it. I'm
sure Wink Martindale loves the fact that he has someone
like that that he can build around. I believe, Okay, Key,
isn't he twenty six years old as well? He's got it,
so he's a young cat who you can continue to
grow with. Has a presidence. I know that there was
some talk out there where he was with his coverage skills,
(22:29):
but I think scheme related sometimes I can have something
to do with it. I think Wink has obviously a
very good idea of how he's going to play that
along with the run. So I'm I'm completely lauding that move.
I think that's a great move by by Joe and Brian.
So that's great. You know the d line. Just remember
this defensive line group in the in the draft, man,
(22:51):
you guys are I mean it is set up to
pull some really good football players interior guys. You watch
some of those guys out there in the draft, if
you've seen him at the combine, watching them run around,
watching the move, the explosiveness. I know it's not just
watching in the combine, but when you see some of
the athleticism there and the ability to move along the
line and make plays as well as you know, stack
(23:13):
it where you need to stag it. I think that's
gonna be fun to see where they go with all
those picks that you guys have and giants have. I
think it's it's gonna be great for them to pop
off maybe two or three important interior defensive people. Yeah. Absolutely,
all right, and now let's move on to the draft
here where the Giants still have to grow. And we've
talked about the wide receivers a little bit. You know,
they kind of have a bunch of these, you know,
(23:34):
guys that can play inside if stolen Shepherd comes back,
while the Robinson is an inside guy. And I feel
like this draft Thomas is littered with a bunch of
five nine, five ten elevenish type receivers that maybe some
people might see more slot guys at versus outside. Who
are some of the guys that you like day one,
day two, even early day three, that you think can
win outside consistently, even if they're not like you, you know,
(23:57):
your true x et cetera, et cetera. Quentin Johnsons are
all that stuff. But guys that maybe can convert their
skills to play outside and win as a separator outside
in the National Football League. I knew you were gonna
ask me this. I just finished my free agency work
and I need to really dig down. This is probably
not the answer you want to hear. I don't I
won't feel comfortable talking. Oh that's fine. I mean, of
(24:18):
course I know the main guys, but I look, I
want to be honest with you. I'm in a spot
right now where I really not need to now start
dipping in and watching all the video because I don't
normally like commenting on people without having some All right,
so tell us how about this. I'm gonna talk more thematically. Then,
what traits do you look for for players that maybe
you're not you're in classic six three, six four X.
(24:40):
Guys that you say, all right, this isn't a slot
only guy. We think we can play him and have
him win outside. Well, look, I mean that that versatility
element is big, and we had some good fortune in
Atlanta over the years by having that versatility guy who
you can move outside and still take it out up
the sideline of course, and underneath. I mean, look, hands down,
(25:00):
when you're talking about receivers. I'm sure you probably know this.
That separation ability, the awareness, separation ability and awareness. It
doesn't mean you always have to be a four to
three or four two guy. You can be a four
five five guy as long as you're sticking your foot
in the grass and you're able to separate. That's a
really really important element. As I mentioned, the awareness, the
(25:20):
awareness to know how you're going to break things off,
how you're going to play off of certain leverages that
the defensive backs are presenting you, of course is really important.
Of course, you have to have the ability to catch
around your body. Everyone knows that. I won't get into
just truly evaluating receivers, but when you're walking away from
guys that you can count on in versatility, the versatility
(25:41):
element brings five to six or seven of these traits
into play, and if you don't have them, obviously it's
it's going to be revealed quite quickly in my mind
as a receiver. So in the end, you in my mind,
we were very particular about getting a big guy. Of course,
we were hopefully going to have our one and two's
(26:02):
be guys that had size. Now, we did not do
that when we brought in Calvin Ridley because he was
a little smaller, but his separation was so good that
it counterbalanced that idea that we wanted two bigger guys.
That third guy. That third guy has the opportunity to
do everything stop start, the versatility to go in and out,
but loving the idea for him to be a legit
(26:22):
inside guy, which is important. And then you start thinking
about the rest of that group as you know how
important it is. There are special teams contributions that are
really important for these receivers, and sometimes people will say, well,
how do we overlook that? Or have we overlooked that?
If you can get a really good receiver who is
adept at special teams has the upside to be a three,
(26:44):
that is, that's a really sound place to be when
you're building your receiver group. Every once in a while
you get that guy who was a four or a
five as a special Teams contributor and he becomes your two.
That's when you've I think you've hit proverbial gold and
maybe not goal, but you've you've you've hit it. You
know you mentioned size. I think most people when they
(27:04):
think about wide receivers and even cornerbacks and size. They
think height and length, right, But I feel like at
these positions players are becoming a little bit lighter coming
out now too, are we Devanta Smith last year? You
have other guys this year, tank Elammanual Forbes of corners
one hundred and sixty something pounds are soaking wetty. You know,
it looks like a stick figure when you watch them
on tape. Without getting into the individual guys, where do
(27:24):
you think that weight factor comes into play? Thomas in
the evaluation? What makes you nervous about those guys on
the football field? Is it tackling for corners? It's this
thing healthy? Where does the weight and that sort of
thing play into it when you're looking at the perimeter
players as some of these guys just start getting a
little bit smaller. Are you referring to for both offense
and defense? Are you yeah? Yeah, but yeah, both sides.
(27:45):
You can take them both separately if you want. Yeah. Look,
I'm I'm I'm a huge believer in athleticism and movement, right, fluidity.
That's a big thing for me. Right back to what
we say, it's a matchup league. If you can't match
up in that corner, you know, corner receiver mode because
you're plotting and heavy legged was what we refer to.
I don't even know if that's a word. I think
(28:06):
it's something we created. This works for me, legged I've
often wondered. But the reality is making sure that you
can that you have the movement and the athleticism and
the explosiveness to stay as you know, the phrase stay
in phase is really really important. So when you see
those guys out there that are all shredded up and
they maybe eighty five eighty seventy five, seventy five starts
(28:27):
to get a little light, but you know, as you
had mentioned in Philly, I mean, they have a really
good receiver there that can do all kinds of crazy things.
You hope that you guys don't hope this. They hope
that healthy, of course, But I will say I'm not
that concerned. I do start getting concerned when you're in
the low seventies. And we had this before. When a
(28:48):
guy starts teetering, he comes in at seventy three as
a corner or a receiver, and believe me, when he
comes into camp at seventy three, he's getting down to
sixty eight to sixty five you're in a complete different world.
It's like you and I. I don't know what your
weight is, but it's like, why Yeah, But you get
those guys where you're always trying to get them up
(29:09):
and you're trying to you know, fatten them up, so
to speak. But then you don't want them to be
one eighty because they're over their limits and they become
they're not as quick and fast and explosive as you want.
You really want that guy who's solid and sound at eighty,
but seventy five can you can deal with it and
then know that he's not going to be falling down
into the sixties? All right? I got two more quickly
(29:30):
before he said goodbye, Thomas, thank you for the time.
This has been great int your offensive line, it's something
the Giants have been working on. Do you feel like
you have to be great in there? Do you just
look for competency? I know it's not considered, you know,
one of those premium positions. How do you How did
you approach that int your offensive line and trying to
get that built in front of Matt Ryan, who as
a pocket passer really didn't like to have guys coming
(29:50):
into you know, right in his face. Well, that's a
great point. I mean, look, you can take Daniel and
you take Matt Ryan as well, right again, suggesting that
Daniel was that much more fluid and mood. What we
what we realized very quickly on that honestly, Matt could
drop back and deal with the perimeter rush. It was
that rush coming up in his face that could be
(30:12):
devastating for us at times. One of the big reasons
I never ever thought in my early years that I
would use a big time free agent move on an
interior guy. Bring in and Alex Mack was one of
the best free agent moves in the thirteen years that
I was there that I felt that that we, you know,
we followed through on. He set such a tone right
that center not only his intelligence and everything his presence,
(30:34):
sit his ass down in there, anchor and punch, move
and pass things off by having him along with a
really sound right guard in Chris Lindstrom, who just got
Um signed to a really big contract. Interestingly enough, we
were inconsistent over those years to have the three. Every
(30:55):
year we one position in there was kind of lacking,
and I thought the teams that were playing us saw
that one position and before you know what, they were
pressuring Matt in a certain way. So the three are
really important. Of course, I believe the center is. But
if you can pull those three together, you don't necessarily
have to pay a ton of money. Consistency is a
huge thing for me, right, and you need a guy
(31:18):
that's going to be able to sit in there and
prevent the pocket from collapsing, which we know that's not
again rocket science. Consistency to anchor properly. And of course,
if you have the right if you have the right
run game, let's not get away from that. If your
run game is sound and you can take some pressure
off your quarterback along with good not necessarily great interior guys,
(31:39):
I think you have a chance to do some really
special things on an offensive side of the ball. All right,
final question, big picture, NFC East record wise, best division
of football ash year. I think they're out of division.
Schedule had something to do with the winning percentages there.
But look, Philly's awesome. Dallas I think got better this
offseason with the additions they've made. Washington's got a good
roster if they could figure out the quarterback. But then
(32:00):
generally the NFC is it's kind of wide open, right.
I mean, you look at all the super quarterbacks, they're
kind of all in the AFC. We'll see where Aaron
Rodgers winds up, obviously, just your thoughts on the division
and the conference and if visually a window here in
the NFC to try to make a run. Look, I'm
gonna lead off, so mister Marris, happy that I'm on
your website here, but look, I mean where you guys
(32:20):
are right now will lead in. I just as I
mentioned at the outset, I really liked the thoughtfulness of
this organization, and I like the fact that you guys
are investing where you need to be investing as as
a Giants organization. I think that's really really important, and
I think great things ahead, quite honestly, given your leadership.
You look at Philadelphia and Howie Roseman and I have
(32:42):
always been you know, we've always been friends and contemporaries
and competitive over the years. And you know I've told
him recently, I mean their team this year, as you
well know anyone who follows it there, they are really
really together. They're they're playing so well. Back to the
year and you know, back in seventeen when they beat
(33:04):
our asses down the stretch going in the Super Bowl.
To me, their their football team this year was exponentially
better than it was that year winning the Super Bowl.
Obviously things fell apart. I think they come back with
a vengeance as well. You know, obviously they have a
head coach who knows what he's doing there. They're building together,
is pulled together really well. They're another very thoughtful team
(33:25):
in the league. And you know, again defensively, offensive line.
I think they come to the table and it's gonna
be tough. They're gonna be tough to beat once again.
As much as you hate hearing that, I get that agree.
I saw how he Roseman the other day. I don't
know if you saw it. He was taking a shot
with Kelsey of Mescal And by the way, just so
you guys know, he's a part owner in that company.
(33:46):
He didn't necessarily say that, so I think he was
doing a little bit of marketing there. How he is
always he's always the businessman, right, So Philly, you know,
you sit there and you think about Dallas. I'm a
big fan of dan Quinn as you know, right. I
think what they're doing there with their defense, they kept people,
they continue to build there and be smart there. Moving
on from a running back there that I heard Dak
(34:07):
Prett Scott like basically crying in is you know soup
so to speak. Like that's a tough one, right, See
what's going to happen there. They are a good football
team as well. I'm not that versed in what's going
on in Washington. I just think with you guys, with
Philly and Dallas, Man, that's gonna be a that's gonna
be a real show to see how that plays out
(34:29):
in and out every every game down, you know, throughout
the season. Thomas, this was fantastic, very educational. I know
I learned a lot of hope our listeners did as well.
Tell everybody about what you're doing with with sumer Sports
and anything you want them to know about you and
your company. Yeah, just if you get a chance, go
to sumersports dot com. We have a ton of content there.
We are a roster optimization tool. Basically our clients are
(34:53):
the NFL of course as it stands right now. Of
course there's all ultimately all kinds of business opportunity. Roster
optimization is a big thing. I'll leave you with this.
We can take thirty two general managers right now, sit
them in this room, and they would raise their hand,
every one of them and say absolutely, not in exact
science what we're doing. Absolutely if they're being honest, even
(35:15):
though the owners don't want to hear this so they
don't want to necessarily say it to the owners, there
needs there needs to be more exactness in the way
that we're approaching our roster building. I've been in the
league for over I've been in the league almost for
thirty years. I've been around it all my life. My
dad was a football coach, and I always thought there's
got to be a better way, and I have a
(35:35):
great deal of confidence in my ability to evaluate. But
there is an augmentation element there. There's data out there,
and I use this line it sounds very exaggerated, criminally
underutilized data within every organization out there, that if a
general manager opens up, understands the old school side of
(35:56):
football and utilizes roster optimization data, it can only make
them that much better. I maintain that it can take
the good GM from being good to being very good,
and the very good to being to being a Hall
of Famer, and in the end, roster optimization allows us.
I used to go to Arthur Blank and I'd say, Arthur,
I have twelve scenarios. And I was proud as a
(36:18):
peacock that I had twelve offseason scenarios. What we are
doing with Sumer Sports with our algorithms. It's an advanced
algorithm that has over fifty four models building and growing.
What it truly does is it allows that algorithm to
present for each specific team they're optimal fifty three roster.
(36:38):
Doesn't mean you have to go with it. It allows
this algorithm to produce millions and millions of options, unlike
my twelve. Doesn't mean you're going to pour through a million.
But you could say, Sumer, give me your top three
roster optimization rosters for the New York Giants and they
would and Joe Shane would be able to look at
(36:58):
it compared to what they have, and then it just
starts the juxtaposition element, which we're really, really really focused on.
We think this can revolutionize our founder last thing, our
founder and chairman is Paul Tutor Jones. Paul is one
of the most famous macro traders in the world right
so he has a massively in depth understanding of roster
(37:22):
or portfolio management and modern portfolio theory is a big
part of what we're doing here. So again it brings
all school football with me being there being the domain
expert as a CEO, along with our thirty quants and
engineers to really hone in on trying to build something
that we think is revolutionary. Well, I'm really happy we
spend a lot of this conversation on team building given
(37:43):
what you guys are doing, and you've piqued my interest,
so I have to follow up. You're real quick, give
me one or two, and I want you to give
the algum with the way beause that kind of defeats
the point of people paying you to do this for them, obviously,
But give me one or two of them. Would you
think are the to quote you criminally underutilized data point
that teams maybe ignore but they shouldn't that maybe we
should keep an eye on. Well, look, I've stated this
(38:06):
way when I said we have fifty four models and growing,
I mean those models are all based around aging curves,
financial curves, um you know, participation there within those Within
all of those curves, I could go on and on
listening there's subsets within their are what our wildly intelligent
group is I call them the intelligencia. Right, I sit
(38:27):
down with some of these guys, blown away, how smart
they are. I learn every day from them. I hope
that I'm imparting some you know, sort of domain information
and expertise to them so that we can grow. What
I'm ultimately saying is we can continue to grow and
provide that data that's in the building that that next
gem Stats supplies. Too often, I will say this as well,
(38:51):
there is no organization out there that has probably more
than three, four or five people in their in their
data departments. We again coming to the table with over
thirty and growing towards fifty. We think that we can
be that group that can provide the NFL teams with
the man and woman power that we know that they
need to as far as pouring into the data that's
(39:13):
sitting there in their organizations that can be utilized. Again,
it's in our leag Just so you know this back
to football, any of us that have a long standing
scouting background and football background, we are all about juxtaposition.
It's about comparing, right, It's about taking those ten top
corners that you're looking at, or inside linebackers or guards
(39:34):
and being able to utilize Sumer Sports in this situation
to be able to run your numbers on all of
those players, to truly see what our models are saying
is the true order versus what you may be and
your scouts as an organization may be looking at. And
in the end it's your job as an organization to override.
(39:55):
We are suggesting what we know, given everything we're taken
into consideration. What we believe is you know the best.
And I will say this the last thing this is
I would not have taken a job like this. I
would have tried to get back into the NFL and
worked my way back up towards a general manager job.
But the opportunity to be in something like this that
I know I've been looking at for years and years
that there has to be a better way to truly
(40:19):
evaluate at the core. And I'm excited about where we're going.
Thomas Dimtchef, CEO of Sumer Sports, Go check it out.
That's sum Ere. You can see it in the lower
third on the screen. Was joining us to the John
Suttle Podcast, brought you by PSC and G Thomas. Great stuff.
We really appreciate the time. Best of luck and we'll
talk to you down the road. Look forward to talking again.
Thank you, John, thanks for being with us, everybody. We'll
see you next time on the John Suttle Podcast.
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