Arjun Sen of ZenMango on Earning the Second Visit, One Guest at a Time

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Zack Oates welcomes Arjun Sen, marketing executive, speaker, author of Unquiet Forever, and founder of ZenMango. Arjun shares how brands win by owning the feeling of each moment and wowing one more guest at a time. He breaks down first and last impressions, the “food two-minute drill” during peak hours, and why leaders must act instead of react to competition. He also explains “unquitting” as a mindset for teams and retention.

Zack and Arjun discuss:

• How to define and deliver a brand’s core feeling
• First and last impressions that drive a second visit
• Running the peak-time “two-minute drill”
• Acting vs reacting in competitive markets
• The “unquit” mindset for leaders and teams

Thanks, Arjun!

Links:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/zenmangoarjunsen/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/zenmango/
https://www.zenmango.com/about

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to another edition of Give and Ovation, the
Restaurant Guest ExperiencePodcast.
I'm your host, Zach Goates, andeach week I have the privilege
of chatting with industryexperts to uncover their
strategies and tactics to helpyou create a five-star guest
experience.
This podcast is powered byOvation, the feedback and
operations platform built formulti-unit loop restaurants,

(00:20):
where you can learn what isactually happening in your
restaurants and how to improve.
Learn more at ovationup.com.
I know I'm excited every singletime, but today we have someone
who is a marketing executive, aentrepreneur, a speaker, an
author.
I actually have his book righthere, Unquit Forever.

(00:41):
Keep yourself in the game.
Not only that, but he has ablockbuster movie made from his
life.
Arjun Sen, welcome to thepodcast.
It's an honor to have you on.
Thanks, Zach.
Truly appreciate all the kindwords you said.
Well, as I was mentioning beforewe hit record, I've had so much
fun going through your book anddiving into your life and who

(01:01):
you are in preparing for this.
And I had a very good friend ofmine, someone that I really
respect in the industry, justsing your praises.
And so I was like, I've got tomeet this guy.
And so it's great that we'refinally able to connect here.
But tell me a little bit aboutyour marketing company first.
Because I know that's originallyhow we connected, is that we

(01:21):
have a couple of mutual friendsand customers in common.
Yeah, so tell me a little bitmore about your marketing firm.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
Yeah.
So I left the corporate worldfirst to be a dad first, to be
totally truthful, had no plans,and then started building the
consulting.
And with any brand, I start withone question.
In my case, the world does notneed another brand consulting
company.
It doesn't.
But what is it that we can bringthat changes the whole thing?
The same way, if you look atwith ovation, ovation brings

(01:50):
this unique way of actionableguest information.
That is what is important.
Okay.
So in my case, the whole thingwas the world has all brand
agencies, everything else.
We really create the path to winbig.
We are the value multiplier.
We help you focus on one guestat a time.
So there are two IPs we own.
One is we are in the feelingbusiness.

(02:10):
It's all about the feeling.
And the feeling means wow onemore.
In any restaurant, however coolyou are, you can go through
millions of customers, but wehave to wow one more, one more,
one more.
And it's a very simple journeyas you start going through.

SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
And not only wowing one more, but making sure that
you're wowing them again andagain.
And I think that that's one ofthe things that as I look
through the reviews of yourcompany, and by the way,
zenmango.com is where you can goand learn more about what he
does in this brand consultancy.
But I mean, the reviews and whatpeople are saying about you is
just incredible that you're ableto distill it down to what is

(02:49):
the essence of that brand.
And so as you're looking atthat, what are some things that
you use to guide theseexecutives through to help them
understand the essence of theirbrand?

SPEAKER_01 (03:00):
You know, there are two simple realities.
One is you cannot fake it tillyou make it.
In any brand, you have to be acustomer in your brand.
I'll give you a goofy examplefrom outside our industry.
I was working and speaking at aretirement home.
And part of my contract, Iwanted to spend two nights
there.

(03:20):
Oh, in the retirement home?
Yes.
Because to me, I can talk aboutyour retirement home and make a
fool of myself and have no clue.
And one of the big things Ilearned is imagine Zach, you and
I both just on 7580, we have togo to this home.
They have a rule that we have totake two five by seven pictures.

(03:42):
Only two five by seven picturesfor two frames.
I can't do that.
There'll be a mutiny in myfamily if I choose two five by
seven.
Okay.
Like there were small thingsthat I learned that really hit
home.
So next day when I went tospeak, I asked their board how
many of you have spent there.
And here's a request to everyonewho is listening is my request
is you and your significantother, in the next three days,

(04:05):
go and please spend a night inyour guest bedroom.
Once you sleep on the guest bed,my wife and myself, we did.
We found our guest bed is themost romantic bed.
If you're at the edge, you falloff.
If you're in the middle, you goin.
Only when we slept in the bed,we change the bed, send notes to
people who have visited bysaying, sorry for the bad

(04:26):
experience, please come back fora free night.
But that is like being,thinking, feeling like the guest
is very important.
And the second thing on the wow,one more is on every guest
experience, if you look at thatto be a date.
Imagine Zach, you're single,you're going out on a date.
Is the first impression and thelast impression?
The first impression, rightaway, you put the person in one

(04:48):
of three buckets.
What am I doing here?
Or wow, or let's see.
But here's the coolest thingcommon between a date and a
restaurant experience.
A guest with your experience,whether it is in restaurant or
with your food, makes a decisionjust like on a date, whether to
go out with you again.
And that's the part whereknowing it will happen with your

(05:10):
food in front of you.
That's the most important thingyou can influence.
That how do I influence thatbefore every guest leaves?
They must feel I did good.
It's a very simple business.

SPEAKER_00 (05:22):
It's simple just like a date.
I love that.
I actually do a keynote sessioncalled Dating Your Customers.
And it's all about how do youget a second date?
Because when you look at whathappens on a first date, the
first thing they're going to dois go check out your social
media profile, right?
And what do your guests do?
They go and they check out youronline reviews.

(05:42):
They see what are people sayingabout you.
When they walk in, when youfirst see that date for the
first time in person and you'regreeted with a hug, is it weird?
Are they shaking your hand?
Is it kind of uncomfortable?
Or are they like, you know, isit natural?
And so when they walk into yourrestaurant or where they place
the order online, is it easy?
Is it frictionless?
And you can kind of go througheverything that it takes to be a

(06:04):
great first date.
And that's what you need to havethe guest feel.

SPEAKER_01 (06:10):
And the thing that you said is very important is
the second date.
Okay.
Imagine you're single, you meetthis most amazing woman, and you
go and put a plan in front bysaying, Hey, I just see that you
and I will be together to thepoint where in three years I
booked that amazing resort forus to get married, and six years
I booked that hospital.
They are having a discount now.

(06:30):
Why one get two, three?
She's going to pin you.
And she should.
Okay.
So all you can do is one dateearns you the next date.
That to me is such a humblething to look at I will earn the
next date.
Even if you cheat on me becauseof the location, you will know.
It's not Zach.

(06:51):
I wish I went out with Zach.
I wish I went to Zach'srestaurant.
Like that's the feeling you cancreate.
Like the FOMO can be created, asyou said, within the date,
within the experience for thesecond date.

SPEAKER_00 (07:02):
That is huge.
And the problem is withrestaurants, because it is such
an expected promiscuity andappropriate promiscuity within
the restaurant industry, right?
We eat at lots of differentrestaurants.
The thing is that you are onlyas good as your last experience.
And so if you're on the 10thdate, they're on the 10th visit

(07:23):
and they have a terribleexperience.
Well, guess what?
That unlocks another restaurantto take your spot.
Oh, cookie.
And you could only, which iswhy, again, that wowing one
guest at a time needs to be amindset of every single guest,
not just first or second guest.

SPEAKER_01 (07:40):
Oh, absolutely.
Every day, every time.
And then you add on top of itevery restaurant, Friday,
Saturday, for three to fourhours, we go into the equivalent
of a football's two-minutedrill.
Different coaches put a team inplace for two-minute drill
because that is where thingsfall down.

(08:01):
That is where things break.
Most restaurants do not have aplan for the two-minute drill.
Most restaurants plan to drivethe car in perfect weather or in
no, those two-minute drills arebrutal.
And that's one of the things isif you are the head of
operations, you have to be outevery week, Thursday, Friday,

(08:25):
Saturday night at week 10 toappreciate what your team does.

SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
I think that is such a great concept because
processes and procedures, ifthey're only meant for a perfect
scenario, they're going to work5% of the time.
You need to figure out this iswhy one of the things about
Disney, which by the way, Iwould definitely spend a night
in Disney if I was doingsomething that I don't know, I'd
never thought about spending anight in like a nursing home
before to understand what theexperience is.

(08:52):
It's like so powerful, reallyputting yourself in their shoes.
But one of the things thatDisney does is that they give
all of their cast members,here's the order of importance
in terms of what you need to doand how you treat the guest.
And the number one thing isguest safety.
Meaning that if there is a linethat is four hours long and

(09:14):
someone who is needs a littlebit of help is trying to get on
the ride, they make everybodyelse wait because their
experience comes second to guestsafety.
And they don't have to explainthat in the thousand iterations
of what that means, but theyteach them the principles of how
to treat the guests.
And I feel like that's one ofthe things that you've done
expertly.

(09:35):
And those Thursday, Friday,Saturdays, those nights where
things just get crazy.
And we've all been there in therestaurant industry, and it's
just like you get to halfwaythrough the shift, you look down
at your watch and you're like,that wasn't 14 hours, and things
get really hard.
And this is where I want to diveinto your book and this concept

(09:56):
of unquit.
Talk to the listeners aboutunquit and what that means.

SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
You know, what I felt was imagine both of us grew
up together.
We grew up in a world wherequitting wasn't an option.
We started crawling, we fell.
That bump on my chin is from thefall.
But we got up.
There was no number of times.
We stood, we started walking.

(10:22):
Walking wasn't easy.
But all these things happenedbecause we all were Zack Arjun
in a world of no quittingoption.
But then somehow we learned thisconcept of quitting.
When I was 18, 19 years old, Itried to learn roller skates.
I fell three times.
I didn't, I don't know how toquit.
My wife does not know how toride a bike.
She's scared to ride a bike now.

(10:42):
But once you put quitting as anoption, you play differently.
Anytime you and I are on aproject, we both look at each
other, and our rule is if bothof us are ready to quit.
Let's say we are going on ahike.
If both of us are ready to quit,we quit.
But how would we play in a worldwhere quitting is not an option?
That's where we go from fearlessto fear-free.
Fear-free is you and I aretogether.

(11:05):
We count on each other.
All I need to do is when I amclose to quitting, I'm human.
I move from the me world, whichis an M, to V, opposite.
All I have to do is mysuperpower is I need help.
That superpower, there's enoughpeople around who will help us.
Like that is the part of unquitthat is there is in any place,

(11:26):
how would you play?
Knowing just like a quarterback,this is a free play.
Nothing to lose, all out.
And I think that is what isholding us back.
And that's what I think unquitto me in life, in relationships,
like even with my wife.
Knowing that at the end of anargument, we would be together

(11:48):
closer.
It allows us to go deeper in, tolearn each other, to be better
together, because we arefear-free.
We are not going to lose eachother in the process.
With my daughter, it's the samething.
Like I feel that's what unquickis.

SPEAKER_00 (12:02):
That's so interesting.
And I love that concept becausequitting so often is an option
that is way higher up on thespectrum than it should be.
And especially like in this dayand age when people are so much
more willing to quit than beforebecause maybe they don't want to
go through a hard thing.
And I get it, we want to makesure that people feel safe.

(12:25):
But I feel that sometimes peoplewill exchange the word safe for
easy.

SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Totally.
And don't get me wrong, I'm notsaying push yourself beyond.
I'm just saying you choose.
Don't be scared of failure anddon't be scared of success.
Okay.
Many a time we feel that you andI have had three good quarters.
Let's change our job and move toa different place.

(12:54):
Because we may not be able toreplicate this.
No, that's not the reason togive up.
We may give up because nextthree quarters we want to choose
on our team and invest more onthe team and may take a sales
hit.
It's a conscious choice.
You're not pulling yourself outof the game.
Like you're taking thequarterback out to give him a

(13:15):
rest.
You're not taking thequarterback out because you
don't see a path to it.

SPEAKER_00 (13:19):
That's a great point.
And speaking of those moments offeeling like quitting, in your
book Unquit Forever, you talkabout these dark moments.
And can you pick a one or twothat have really shaped your
outlook on life?

SPEAKER_01 (13:35):
I think you know it's common for all of us.
Every one of us who are heretoday who are listening, just go
back.
Think about there are days inyour life you thought was coming
to an end.
You were in high school nightbefore an exam, two more
chapters you didn't prepare for.
No.
What?
I don't know anything aboutthat, Arjun.
Absolutely.
Next one will be you, mostprobably.

(13:56):
This girl you were datingthought is the most amazing
person.
Just tells you, sorry.
Doesn't even think your formalreason.
Like you think the world'scoming to an end.
First job, we got a bad review.
Okay.
Those nights were tough.
World is coming to an end.
But think today, Zach is sittinghere, Ardun's here, because the

(14:17):
world never comes to an end.
We found a way.
That's the part where we have togive ourselves credit is we
found a way.
And anytime there's a situationI really look at myself and I
tell myself I have a disciplinethat I only go back to the past
for two reasons to findcelebrations and find learning.
Let's say if this is arestaurant, that closet only has

(14:41):
tea and coffee.
I only go for tea and coffee.
I don't go for anything else.
And it really helps us.
Like, let's say I give you avery clear example.
We work in a restaurant.
I made a few big mistakes, andyou are the owner.
At that instance, you don't haveto file me.
At that instance, let's moveforward.
You can fire me tomorrow.
At that instance, you don't haveto waste time on who did it.

(15:03):
I don't have to waste timejustifying.
Consequences should happenlater.
But if we get into that momentof being in the present, just
get learning and celebrationsfrom the past to take the step
forward.
That's all it takes.
And that discipline I have foundis very important in the
business world, in therestaurant industry, everywhere.

(15:25):
Because we bash ourselves, webash others, we try to change
the past.
Like Zach, why could you notyesterday do this?
I don't know, was did Zachintentionally ever screw up?
No.
If I have to help Zach evolve,or you have to help me evolve,
it's a different conversationoutside the crisis.
Another day.

(15:45):
Right now, Zach, can you be asuperhero to get us out of it?
Yes, I can.
What's the one step?
Like that, I think is themindset.
To me, it's a huge mindset, andthat's the part where the
unquit.
And all these are connectedbecause it's all about taking
one step.

SPEAKER_00 (16:00):
I love that celebration or learning and not
regret and depression.
What do you do about the future,right?
Because a lot of times peoplewill quit, not because things
have been hard, but becausethey're so scared of what things
of how hard things will be inthe future.
They're imagining all thesescary things that are going to
happen, and it paralyzes peopleinto undecision or into

(16:23):
quitting.
How do you look towards thefuture?

SPEAKER_01 (16:26):
Like, for example, one of the big challenges in the
restaurant industry isretention.
Some team members will have toquit because they're moving in
life.
After graduation, they'removing, changing jobs.
I understand those are goodthings for the person or
sometimes good for us.
But rest of the time, good teammembers quit because we have
quit on them.

(16:47):
Zach quits, like Zach will notleave this job.
Zach felt loved at two points oftime.
Then he comes in and then heleaves the work.
Okay.
When he leaves the job, I justcall you out by saying, Zach,
buddy, had a great day.
Have a great evening.
Be safe.
You need anything, call me.
And if I know your familymember's name, your wife, kids,

(17:09):
I say, hey, you know, say hi tothem.
Will Zach leave me?
No, he won't.
It doesn't matter how much youget paid.
You get happy about the payraise, everything, just for
maybe 18 days or 22 days.
I've done the math sometimes.
But what happens is every daywhen you leave, you know whether
I've quit on you, whether you'rea nameless person, another
person, that means I've quit onyou.
That means you're disposable.

(17:30):
That means you can leave.
But if you feel they love mehere, they need me here.
It goes back to the feelingbusiness.
Retention.
That's the core of retention ishow every team member every day
feels connected to one person inthe organization who has not
quit.
It's the we world, not me world.

SPEAKER_00 (17:48):
Wow.
I mean, that's so powerful.
And helping them to feel thatlove and that connection.
And what would you say to, Ithink this is great for leaders
thinking about how do we helpour team feel that love and stay
connected?
What would you say to theleaders that are maybe they're
like, you know, I think aboutthe restaurant industry is a

(18:10):
very competitive industry.
Like I think about some of mycustomers that are chicken
customers and they're just soafraid of what's going to happen
because there's so muchcompetition for chicken.
Prices are going up, consumerdemand is going down.
What would you say to thosepeople who are just kind of like
scared of what the future holdsfor their restaurant?

SPEAKER_01 (18:30):
So I would say two things to them.
One is I'll steal from thissmart guy I met, I forgot his
name, Zach.
He just talked to me aboutprioritizing.
Okay.
What is the number one thingthat you do is the most
important thing.
Number one thing, what youshowed me on that example means
priority means you can choose.
Priority means everything elsemoves.

(18:50):
Priority to me means there arefour women in my life: my
daughter, my wife, my mother,and my mother-in-law.
If they call right now, I'lltake the call.
Which means you become numbertwo, Zach.
I'm sorry.
But that's priority.
Priority is predefined.
That to me is the goal that youshare.
And the second thing as youstart going through is brand
must understand.
I know it's a competitive world,but you cannot control what your

(19:13):
competition does.
The moment you fall into thetrap of reaction, you're toast,
you're dead.
You have to see the world, butyou act.
If you and I play a game, if Ican get you to a reaction mode,
I win Zach every time.
And brands react.
Competition does this, let's putan extra coupon.

(19:35):
Competition does this, let's dothis.
No.
What competition does has changethe play.
The game plan.
In that new game plan, what isthe right, best action for us?
Pause.
Give yourself time.
We sometimes think that thecorporate world rewards us for
the person who acts first.
No.
I really want the person whoacts because the moment you act

(19:58):
first, you do emotional,impulsive response.
You throw in a play that wasthere.
Maybe you need to create a newplay.
Maybe you need to bring somebodyelse to help you.
But that difference betweenaction and reaction in a
competitive world really changesbrands.
I've seen brands who wereleaders start reacting.

(20:18):
Boom.
If you act like a follower, youbecome a follower.

SPEAKER_00 (20:22):
Wow.
I mean, I mean, I just looked atthe clock and I'm like, oh my
gosh, this flew by.
I have uh so thoroughly enjoyedchatting with you.
This has been mind expanding.
It's been so wonderful.
So I hate to wrap this up, butyou know a lot of people in this
industry and a lot of peoplefrom your time speaking and
writing.

(20:42):
Who is someone that you feellike deserves an ovation?
Who's someone that we should befollowing?

SPEAKER_01 (20:48):
There are two individuals.
One is a rock star, little bitof yesterday, former president
CEO of Panera, Blaine Hurst, whowas also president.
Blaine is such a sharp guy.
Love Blaine.
And the coolest thing aboutBlaine is a lot of people are
talk more, walk less.

(21:08):
Blaine is 99% walk.
And the second is a leader oftoday who I really think will
emerge to even a superleader isK Dover.
And, you know, with K, thecoolest thing I learned is with
smartness, with success, there'ssome attitude that comes in,
people.
I think Klay has not read thatchapter of the leadership.
Okay.
So he has missed out that he hasto add a little attitude to his

(21:31):
life.
He does not.
He's the same Klay I know from20 years back, 15 years back,
same amazing human being,leading, taking things to bigger
levels.
So really applaud both theseguys to be amazing friends and
mentors in my life.

SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
I couldn't agree more.
I mean, those are two justincredible people, people I look
up to a lot, and people thatI've learned so much from.
And talking about going throughchallenges, Blaine's life has
been incredible to seeing whathe's been overcoming and all the
things he's had to relearn.
And so I know there's a lot ofcamaraderie and trials that you
and Blaine have had.

(22:06):
And so I uh love that shout-outfor him.
Now, Ardun, where can we go tolearn more about you or your
company?

SPEAKER_01 (22:14):
So, of course, Ardunsen.com, that's where you
can find all the information.
And also, if you get a chance onAmazon Prime, check out the
movie I Want to Talk.
And today is a very special daybecause yesterday, in the
equivalent of Indian Oscar, themovie won Best Movie, Best
Actor, and Best Script.
So we have been celebrating, andthis has been an amazing day for

(22:38):
this movie to win three of thetop awards.

SPEAKER_00 (22:40):
Oh my gosh, that's incredible.
Well, congratulations, Arjun.
I mean, amazing, and I can'twait to watch the movie because
I've had such a good time goingthrough your book again, unquit
forever.
And so for showing us that lifeis worth unquitting, today's
ovation goes to you.
Thank you so much for joining uson Given Ovation.
Thank you.
Thanks for joining us today.

(23:00):
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