June 15, 2023 • 27 mins
Zoe and Vance discuss Dave Ramsey, how millennials feel about cutting up credit cards, the impact of Financial Peace University on the church, what debt does to us, and the next steps the church can take to teach biblical principles around money and investing.
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:00):
60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. The
(00:03):
ultimate goal is to live like noone else so you can give like no
one else gettingdebt free and to just savings is
actually not the totality ofGod's plan for your life.
Totality of God's plan is how doyou take whatever God gave you
not just save it, but invest ina pastor turn tech leader and a
millennial churchgoer, exploringthe intersection of technology,
culture and faith, equipping youwith innovative strategies to
(00:27):
support you as you live out yourcalling leader churches with
confidence to step into thefuture together. This is the
give it up podcast. Vance,there's been a lot in the news
lately about debt in America andnot just like the debt ceiling,
but I found this startling, Idon't know if you know the stat
60% of Americans live paycheckto paycheck. Wow. Are you
(00:48):
surprised by that? I don't wantto be like, but no, like,
I feel like I have a lot offriends are kind of in that
boat, unfortunately. AndI don't understand how we keep
getting to this place. Becauseit's not like it's a surprise,
like, oh, strapped again thismonth. And so I want to talk
(01:08):
about Dave Ramsey a little bittoday.
Okay, because you better forDave. Yes. Give
it up for Dave Ramsey. BecauseFinancial Peace University was
literally created to helpbelievers get out of debt.
You know a little bit abouttheir team. You kind of were
associated a bit. You didn'tlike a competition. Talk. Talk
to us about the physical story.
No, Iwas oh, my gosh, I moved the
table. I was auditioning tobecome a Ramzi personality.
(01:32):
That's right. That's right. Whatwas that process? Like?
Oh, it is? It's literally a oneand a half to two year process.
No way that people so well.
Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Okay.
What were some takeaways fromthat process? Some takeaways was
that there's some insight, giveus the background. They're so
bigon culture. Yeah. I mean, they
have a team of probably almost2000 People now. That is
(01:54):
correct. And they always meet inperson. Love that. Like there
has never been any, like COVIDrestrictions, like work from
home. I think it was like fortwo are they based in Nashville,
Tennessee. Hey, guys, Franklin,Tennessee, more specifically, a
cold cold. Yeah. But the team isawesome. And Dave is the real
deal I got to meet. He's, he'sso awesome. Yeah. But it's
(02:15):
really inspiring seeing someonewho has quite literally been
talking about the same thing.
That's right. For 30 yearsstraight, hasn't changed his
tune. Right, one inch. And it'sstill impacting millions of
people. Yeah. Which means thisproblem of debt is not going
away. Right. And also gratefulthat he's there to solve the
(02:39):
problem. Because ultimately, thereason he he did this, I don't
know if you know this, but hewent bankrupt. I've heard the
story. Yeah. So it's a reallypowerful story. And so I love
everything that he's teachingpeople, because the ultimate
goal is to live like no oneelse. So you can give like no
one else, which I think is onpar. What? With what are
(03:00):
passionate? Yeah, yeah, we wantto flow from that. Exactly.
Yeah, we want to extend that.
AndI want to talk about today some
of the ways in which you believebecause we're in a very
different area, right? We're inthe Silicon Valley. That's
right. Where money flowsdifferently. Yes. All together.
Dave Ramsey is fully under thebelief that cash is king. Yes.
(03:21):
And I would love to hear yourthoughts on that working in the
tech hub of the world. Well, Ithink obviously, Dave is onto
something. He's built anincredible organization helping
people get out of the shacklesof debt. I mean, it's biblical,
right? The Bible actually talksabout this, that we are not
meant to be debtors. Totally.
(03:43):
And that's in so many differentfacets spiritually. I mean, we
know that's true. And thank you.
For the grace of God. Yes. ForJesus that cancels our debt. And
that's spiritually speaking. Butit's likened to financial,
right? I mean, finances andspirituality are actually very
intertwined. The Bible talksabout your heart is so connected
to your money. And thatinteresting that you know, where
(04:06):
your money goes, where yourtreasure is, your heart then
will follow. Yeah. And so theBible does talk about we are not
meant to be in debt. We're notmeant to be enslaved to debt.
And what Dave Ramsey is doing isdefinitely and his team is
definitely well within what theBible talks about. I think, for
me, and for us at overflow, whatwe're really excited about, is
(04:29):
to really just extend thatlegacy, right into new areas,
new spheres, new time periods,new mindsets, right. I think
that there are certain mindsetsaround, you know, even just the
use of credit cards. I think formost people, the adage that you
shouldn't even use a credit cardto cut all of your credit cards.
(04:49):
You know, that probably is thebest. Yeah, right. Right. You
know, you talk to a savvymillennial, that might not jive
well, right, right, because Asof things like points, total
reward system, yeah, and thingslike that. But even going a step
further than just credit cards,and things of that nature, I
think what's interesting is howdo we extend the principles of
(05:10):
God beyond debt? into investing?
Yeah. Right. So if we want totake another biblical principle,
really actually, getting out ofdebt is step one, but not the
totality of God's purpose forsomebody's life. Right?
Actually, maintenance, the Biblesays is wicked. We've actually
(05:33):
talked about that maybe a fewtimes in different
conversations. But, you know,Jesus talks about the parable of
the talents. Yep. And the personthat actually just gives back,
what God gave to him is wickedand lazy, crazy. So the
principle of Heaven is notmaintenance, the principle of
Heaven is multiplication. It'sgreat. And so getting out of
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debt, yes, great is step one,don't get enslaved to the
bondage of what debt is. But howdo you go beyond even just
maintenance, because converting,getting debt free, and to just
savings is actually not thetotality of God's plan for your
life? The totality of God's planis how do you take whatever God
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gave you not just save it, butinvest it? Right? How do you
invest it? How do you work it?
How do you multiply it? And Ithink that's what overflow is
all about. We talk to churchesall the time. And one of the
hesitations right, as a pastorwill tell us, I love what you
guys are doing at a run. I lovehow people will just start that,
you know, encouraging, I lovewhat you guys are doing. I'd
overflow. But you know, there'sso many big the sandwich
(06:40):
technique. There's so many bigbutts, it's a compliment
sandwich. I get it, I get it,you know, we do it. You know,
but I don't think there'sanybody in our congregation that
have stocked to get right, thathave investments to get right.
To which I say, what anopportunity. What an
opportunity. I mean, if you'resaying that nobody in your
(07:02):
congregation is investing, whynot? Why shouldn't we as
shepherds, right, pastors areshepherds, right? Why shouldn't
we, as shepherds guide the flockguide the people of God guide
the saints, into prosperity intoprovision into the way in which
not only do we have maintenance,but we have the miracle of
(07:23):
multiplication, we have themiracle of wealth generation,
why not because of ourselves asa kingdom perspective? Yeah, but
so that we can bless others. Sothat's what I think I'm excited
about to extend. Maybe DaveRamsey, and his team have just
pioneered is financial wellnessto me, goes beyond getting out
of debt. Let's do that. Yep. Butthen beyond that, let's think
(07:45):
about investing. Totally,no, I, I love this idea we're
talking about and to give morecolor to the credit card,
cutting up the credit cardthing, because for the longest
time, I was like, okay, but thisis like, what if I'm good with
it, and like, I use a creditcard as if it's a debit card,
you know, and I'm not like goingover anything like that. But
Dave's whole concept is theentire system of credit cards is
(08:06):
out to get you Sure. And it'sout to take advantage of the
people that can't pay it back.
So he's like, for that reason,get rid of it altogether. And
you can underwrite a house andall that. But I think one of the
hurdles we face comes on theback of that, because they pit
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certain currencies against oneanother. Sure, as if I can't
have the ability in my churchfor people to accept crypto,
because crypto is bad, right?
Crypto is gambling of sorts, sopeople can see it like that,
which in many respects, it couldbe that. But also, if people are
using it as an investment tool,then why would we not open all
(08:47):
the doors of opportunity forthat? Oh, yeah, given?
I mean, it's the same thing withanything that's new, right? It's
not that these things areinherently evil, they're
actually a moral. A lot of thetimes these are tools, right?
It's the human heart that cancontextualize it as being used
(09:10):
for good or being used for evil.
And so I would agree, I wouldsay that, you know, whether it's
credit cards or whether it'scrypto, the reality is there are
people that can use it, forthings that are not good. And
there are people that can besuccumb to it for their
destruction, right? We knowbiblically that there is an
enemy that is trying to steal,kill, and destroy. But that
(09:30):
doesn't mean that we then hideout and we fortify Sure. And we,
you know, my pastor says, youknow, we're not meant to like go
in the boondocks and get into alittle trailer and put moss at
the top so satellites can see isthat what we're meant to do?
We're not Amish. Yeah. Right. Isis we're actually meant to
(09:52):
understand that greater is Hethat is in me than he that is in
the world. And so the biblicalnarrative is actually so much
about redemption, not hidingaway. Right? And so how can we
use these things as tools? Okay,cool. Like if it is a
temptation, and you don't havecontrol of the ability to have a
(10:14):
credit card and be disciplinedabout that? Sure. I mean, if you
have certain proclivities, thencut it out of your life, but for
most things, actually the rightanswer, or maybe the more
practical answer is how do youuse that as an opportunity to
exercise discipline? Disciplineis a fruit of the Spirit. Right?
(10:36):
And so instead of removing itfrom your life, like it's this
big bag, scary thing that oh, ifI just, it's gonna burn a hole
in my pocket, I just need toswipe it. I need to swipe.
Right. Instead of thinking aboutthat, how can you leverage it?
Right? So even just the wholething about, okay, we're only
gonna buy our house in cash.
(10:58):
You're gonna be saving for along time in a Silicon Valley.
Yeah. Like, like, like a badhouse is over a million dollars.
Right? Easy, right? In theSilicon Valley. And so how many
people are missing out in thingslike good debt, right? Things
that actually have an investmentelement to it, especially if
it's your primary household?
I've gotten into houses and Ifinanced it, I find it it's a
(11:19):
portion of it. I tried to put asmuch down payment as I can,
because I want to be able toafford my monthlies, right
comfortably. That isstewardship. Yeah, but some of
these investments, right,especially in markets, like the
Silicon Valley, have been someof the best Wealth Generators
for me and my family, right. Andso it's not a knock on some of
these principles that have beentaught to us, especially within
(11:41):
the church. But it's more ofexpanding our perspectives of
Hey, God can work in other ways.
He's not confined to a limitedset of ways that he can work.
Sure. Yeah. I love thatdistinction, because these ideas
can run parallel to one another.
Yeah. Because they're bothending with the same goal. And
that's to give like no one else.
(12:03):
I want to talk about the effectsof debt and what it can do to
people. Yes. And I find the statthat 60% of Americans are living
paycheck to paycheck. That'scrazy. I find that interesting
when I hear the statistic that67% of millennials consider
themselves philanthropist.
Interesting. So if they're bothin the 60 percentile, yeah, then
that means some of these peopleare living paycheck to paycheck
(12:24):
while also giving the very lastdollar seemingly, right. That's
what it feels like. So let'stalk about the effects that
happen when you have debt.
Because I think a lot of peopledon't realize just how deeply
ingrained debt impacts yourlife. Oh, yeah. You have a
(12:45):
creativity block. Because howcan you think about creating
something when you have to thinkabout your four walls and just
being secure? Yeah. Imagine theanxiety knowing that I owe 1000s
of dollars back to thegovernment for student loans.
Yeah. And that burden, and clouddoes not come off for you until
that last dollar is deposited,and you're free again. It just
(13:08):
like it breaks my heart becausethe debt doesn't just happen
with our money. I think we're inso much debt with our time, too.
Yeah. Like, how few people do weknow that are genuinely generous
with their time, like would dropat a moment's notice? To help
you? Right? Yeah. And I knowthis stat that is really mind
(13:30):
blowing. This is one of like, mybiggest passions is 70% of
people don't have a singleperson that they could call in
the middle of a crisis for help.
So interesting. Debt, I feellike is underpinning of lot of
issues. Yeah. For us. It's notjust our finances, but our
entire soul keepingus limited. Yes. Yeah. I mean,
debt is a big danger. Rightdebt, I think you've exposed
(13:53):
some of the ways that itmanifests itself. And so to
debt, I would say the firstthing is get discipline. Right,
right. Right. If you're hurtingand dead, if if you're a church
leader, and you're leadingpeople that are in debt, the
first ingredient is to getdiscipline is to actually start
living by principles. You know,the first thing I actually teach
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to somebody, and this might seemcounterintuitive, is when they
tell me that they're drowning indebt, and they can't get ahead
and they're financially inbondage. And it doesn't seem
like they can actually grow intheir finances and their bank
balances and things like that.
The first thing that I asked himand this might seem kind of like
harsh or even crazy, I say, Areyou tithing? If they're in our
(14:34):
church, and they're seekinghelp, yep. Why would with why
why would I withhold theprinciples of God? Yeah, for
their life. The Bible says,Bring all the tithes into the
storehouse and see if I will notopen up a window of heaven and
pour out a blessing so largethat you would not have room to
contain it. God's window is somuch bigger than even our room.
(14:58):
Yeah. Yeah. And so how do wemake more room for God to bless
us? We have to honor him with aportion of our room so that he
can fill it so that he canexceed it. Yeah. Right. And so,
you know, I asked that. And thenthe response typically is, well,
Vance, I just told you, I was indebt, I can't afford to tie to
(15:23):
which I say you can't afford notto. Right. Because the way that
you've been doing it, obviously,is not working. Most of the
time, you know, outside of maybestudent debt, which is maybe a
unique thing. But most of thetime, especially if you're in
credit card debt, it basicallymeans that you're living off
110. And that's what a lot of myfriends do. They don't even want
(15:46):
to look at their bank account,because there's so much anxiety.
They don't want to see thatnegative balance, but bank
balance, they want to see thatoverdraw. Yeah, you know, and
things like that. And so they'retypically, you know, making 100,
for example, and spending 110Each month with a tide does, it
forces you to live on 90. Butthe tide does is it sets a
(16:06):
principle in motion in your lifethat, hey, I'm going to no
matter what, regardless, I'mgoing to recognize that, at the
end of the day, if I believeGod, then I believe that he's a
good father, and he's myprovider. So I'm gonna honor Him
and declare His provision nowover my finances. And so that's
(16:27):
just an example. I mean, that'snot the only thing that people
need to do. But it's an exampleof discipline, am I willing to
put some disciplines in my life?
And then I think that outside ofthat people don't realize that
there's a whole nother game tobe played, which is growth?
Yeah, right. And so a lot oftimes what people will do is
focus so much on trying to cutexpenses, and focus so much on
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trying to save it save moneythat they don't think creatively
about how to make more money.
Right? And so there's this wholeelement of okay, you know,
what's in your hand, when Godsays, I shall supply all of your
needs, that's not literallymoney's gonna come from the sky.
(17:11):
I think Manna came down fromheaven in the Bible, but like,
I've never seen it. And so it'sprobably not going to come from
this guy, that's likely notgoing to happen, probably not.
But when the Bible says he'sgoing to supply all your needs,
what it means is, I've given youeverything that you need to
partner with me, right? I'vegiven you gifts, I've given you
(17:32):
talents. And when we talk aboutthe parable of the talents,
we're not just talking aboutfinancially investing, invest in
your skill sets, and see if thatnot see if that won't open up
provision, new provision, andyou're alive, right. And so I
think those are different ways.
It's like discipline, but it'salso you're actually seeing an
early creativity.
(17:53):
I think the tithe is one of themost important disciplines
because if you start tithing, itmakes investing into retirement
accounts, for instance, so mucheasier. Interesting, because
this concept of it's not mineanyways. So good. It makes it so
so simple. When ever itautomatically takes money out of
(18:14):
your bank account each month.
You're like, yeah, it wasn'tmine. Anyways, I'm putting it
away for thefuture was this topic for you?
And Jared, when you guys gotmarried? Was it a hot topic? Or
were you guys were justcompletely aligned immediately?
We crazy enough? We'recompletely aligned. Cool
immediately. And I know that'sprobably rare. In fact, the the
stats show that most people arenot aligned financially. Um, but
(18:34):
yeah, it's, it's really lookinglong term. And I'm not
notoriously a long term thinker.
I'm very emotionally driven,which is great. But I have a
husband who is not. Yeah, yeah.
Yes, exactly. I love that. But,you know, we have friends who
they're in their 40s. And theydon't have they didn't have a
(18:56):
single penny set aside forretirement. Okay. Like we
recently were like, We need tohave an intervention with them.
Because they're not thinkingabout the long term impacts, and
how their family down the roadwill be impacted by that, as
well. And yes, it's not sexy tolike, think about retirement,
because I want to live now inthe moment. But everything we do
(19:20):
when it comes to like tithing aswell, it's this whole concept
of, I'm investing in somethingthat's bigger than me, and
something that isn't evennecessarily for me, but just to
honor God or honor my familydown the road. And so that's
kind of the lens in which we seeit through now is like, we're
honoring, whenever we'retithing, and we're investing.
I love that. And you know, Ithink the point of this
(19:43):
especially for church leaders,pastors, senior church leaders,
executive teams, forcommunities, faith communities,
specifically is we're talkingabout people in our circle that
are struggling with finances.
Why wouldn't the church rise upin this time to be able to
provide programs, people,mentors, resources to be able to
(20:04):
pour into people. And yes,whether it's okay, let's start
with Dave Ramsey's FinancialPeace University and get debt
free, or starting to invest intoyour church and teaching them
what it means to actuallygenerate wealth. Yeah, right.
Something that we spend a lot oftime here at Vive is okay, maybe
a big proportion of our churchare not necessarily struggling
(20:26):
with debt. But what we do try tocultivate is this spiritual
spirit of entrepreneurshipthat's naturally here, right.
And so if people are looking fortheir next step in financial
freedom, really a lot of thatunlock comes in your ability to
be entrepreneurial, your abilityto be a maker, a creator, your
ability to own certain assetsand to grow certain things. And
(20:50):
so we talk a lot here about thatat five church, because if we
want to actually make an impact,right, in society, if we want to
infiltrate their differentspaces and spheres, it's gonna
require resources. Yeah, it'sgonna require people in
prominent places. This isbiblical. Daniel, in the Bible,
(21:13):
if you actually read the book ofDaniel, you could see that he
got elevated to especially afterthe lions den and all that if
you're in Sunday school, youknow, I'm talking about he got
elevated to the Bible saysmaster of the Magi. Okay, who
are the Magi, the Magi weretheir advisors to the king. The
Magi were kingmakers the Magi,were congressmen, Congresswoman
(21:37):
politicians, people of prestige.
When you say king maker and men,they're the ones who appointed
the people in charge. These werewell respected people in the
Bible says Daniel, was themaster of the Magi. How crazy is
that? That a man of God that gotimprisoned in a dungeon for his
(22:02):
faith? Because, you know, theysaid, Hey, if you pray, you
know, you're going to go and hesaid, Okay, let me open up the
window. Yeah, you know, let meopen up the window and actually
show you how I pray, you know, aman of faith was promoted was
elevated by God to be the masterof the magic, check this out.
(22:23):
What's so interesting about thatstory is that we see, hundreds
of years later, right? Who werethe first people that identified
the Savior, as Jesus when He wasborn in a major, the Magi.
That's the first time I thoughtabout that, the
Magi. So there was this Magi,people in the eastern Persian
(22:48):
Empire culture, that had handeddown prophecies from Daniel, for
hundreds of years, becauseDaniel was in a place of
prominence, he was able to teachthe Hebrew tradition to Persian
people of influence, and tellthem of a day that will come
that there will be a Messiah,that saves the world. Right. And
(23:13):
at that time, maybe the Magijust thought it was just talking
smack. Maybe the Magi was like,I don't know what you're talking
about. What was interesting isin the Persian tradition, their
religion was actually a study ofthe stars. And so that was also
passed down. So check this out.
There's two simultaneous thingshappening. The study of the
stars is being passed down Magi,people to Magi, people, to Magi,
(23:33):
people. And so what signaled themagi to even check out what was
happening with this person thatwas born in a major a star,
because something had happened.
Yeah, that had never happened inthe sky before. And so they they
were following that star. Sotheir religion, Buddhism, Islam,
(23:56):
atheism, the worship oftechnology, whatever their
religion was, was forcing themto follow this star. And then
when they met Jesus in person,all of a sudden, all that
residual teaching of what Danielhad taught to their people,
about this Hebrew God, aboutthis Messiah that was going,
(24:17):
going to come all startedclicking in one moment. And the
first people to ever identifyJesus as Savior and Lord, were
Gentiles. That's crazy. And sowhen I talk about resources,
when I talk about cultivatingyour skill set, when I talk
about entrepreneurship, when Italk about believing God to
(24:41):
elevate you in prominent places,I'm not talking about it on a
level just because it's cool foryou. I'm talking about it on a
level that this is generationimpacting the balance. The
balance is held by this planthat God had So to partner with
you that whether it's for yourchildren, or whether it's for
(25:04):
400 years down the line, couldyou make yourself available to
live by principle, to investyour money and your skill sets
so that you can start thinkinggenerationally so that you can
start thinking about legacy?
I have nothing else. That was,that was amazing. I just, I keep
(25:26):
getting so excited about theconcept of like, How can I
invest not financially, but withmy time, like thinking of
everything in our lives as aninvestment in our faith in our
walk with God in ourrelationship with our spouses,
with our families, like with thechurch, man, the possibilities
here are endless credit. And oneof the key ways to start
(25:46):
investing is to first make it apriority, make it a priority to
get out of debt. It's a door anda pastor listening
to this, if you're a churchleader, if you're a small group
leader, if you have any sort ofinfluence within your church,
and there's people followingyou. Why don't you consider
adding into your leadership mix?
The discussions around finances,you would be surprised how many
(26:08):
people might reveal to you thisis a stressor in their life.
You'd be surprised how manypeople are so locked up with
anxiousness about this topic,but what a great thing that
you're in their life and what agreat thing that you listen to
this podcast. So good.
Give it up for Dave Ramsey.
Let's go getting out of debt.
And the principle investing andtithing. Love it. Boom. Thanks
(26:32):
so much for listening to thegive it up podcast if you want
to receive even more insights onchurch innovation, culture, and
giving. Now you can sign up forfree to be an overflow insider
where you'll receive exclusivecontent discounts direct access
to Vance Roush to get yourquestions answered. And also
invite only access to ourmonthly fundraising leadership
(26:53):
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the podcast players what peopleare enjoying and want to hear
more of and we are adamant aboutproviding maximum value to even
(27:16):
more church leaders. Thanks somuch. We'll see you next time.
60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. The
(00:03):
ultimate goal is to live like noone else so you can give like no
one else gettingdebt free and to just savings is
actually not the totality ofGod's plan for your life.
Totality of God's plan is how doyou take whatever God gave you
not just save it, but invest ina pastor turn tech leader and a
millennial churchgoer, exploringthe intersection of technology,
culture and faith, equipping youwith innovative strategies to
(00:27):
support you as you live out yourcalling leader churches with
confidence to step into thefuture together. This is the
give it up podcast. Vance,there's been a lot in the news
lately about debt in America andnot just like the debt ceiling,
but I found this startling, Idon't know if you know the stat
60% of Americans live paycheckto paycheck. Wow. Are you
(00:48):
surprised by that? I don't wantto be like, but no, like,
I feel like I have a lot offriends are kind of in that
boat, unfortunately. AndI don't understand how we keep
getting to this place. Becauseit's not like it's a surprise,
like, oh, strapped again thismonth. And so I want to talk
(01:08):
about Dave Ramsey a little bittoday.
Okay, because you better forDave. Yes. Give
it up for Dave Ramsey. BecauseFinancial Peace University was
literally created to helpbelievers get out of debt.
You know a little bit abouttheir team. You kind of were
associated a bit. You didn'tlike a competition. Talk. Talk
to us about the physical story.
No, Iwas oh, my gosh, I moved the
table. I was auditioning tobecome a Ramzi personality.
(01:32):
That's right. That's right. Whatwas that process? Like?
Oh, it is? It's literally a oneand a half to two year process.
No way that people so well.
Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Okay.
What were some takeaways fromthat process? Some takeaways was
that there's some insight, giveus the background. They're so
bigon culture. Yeah. I mean, they
have a team of probably almost2000 People now. That is
(01:54):
correct. And they always meet inperson. Love that. Like there
has never been any, like COVIDrestrictions, like work from
home. I think it was like fortwo are they based in Nashville,
Tennessee. Hey, guys, Franklin,Tennessee, more specifically, a
cold cold. Yeah. But the team isawesome. And Dave is the real
deal I got to meet. He's, he'sso awesome. Yeah. But it's
(02:15):
really inspiring seeing someonewho has quite literally been
talking about the same thing.
That's right. For 30 yearsstraight, hasn't changed his
tune. Right, one inch. And it'sstill impacting millions of
people. Yeah. Which means thisproblem of debt is not going
away. Right. And also gratefulthat he's there to solve the
(02:39):
problem. Because ultimately, thereason he he did this, I don't
know if you know this, but hewent bankrupt. I've heard the
story. Yeah. So it's a reallypowerful story. And so I love
everything that he's teachingpeople, because the ultimate
goal is to live like no oneelse. So you can give like no
one else, which I think is onpar. What? With what are
(03:00):
passionate? Yeah, yeah, we wantto flow from that. Exactly.
Yeah, we want to extend that.
AndI want to talk about today some
of the ways in which you believebecause we're in a very
different area, right? We're inthe Silicon Valley. That's
right. Where money flowsdifferently. Yes. All together.
Dave Ramsey is fully under thebelief that cash is king. Yes.
(03:21):
And I would love to hear yourthoughts on that working in the
tech hub of the world. Well, Ithink obviously, Dave is onto
something. He's built anincredible organization helping
people get out of the shacklesof debt. I mean, it's biblical,
right? The Bible actually talksabout this, that we are not
meant to be debtors. Totally.
(03:43):
And that's in so many differentfacets spiritually. I mean, we
know that's true. And thank you.
For the grace of God. Yes. ForJesus that cancels our debt. And
that's spiritually speaking. Butit's likened to financial,
right? I mean, finances andspirituality are actually very
intertwined. The Bible talksabout your heart is so connected
to your money. And thatinteresting that you know, where
(04:06):
your money goes, where yourtreasure is, your heart then
will follow. Yeah. And so theBible does talk about we are not
meant to be in debt. We're notmeant to be enslaved to debt.
And what Dave Ramsey is doing isdefinitely and his team is
definitely well within what theBible talks about. I think, for
me, and for us at overflow, whatwe're really excited about, is
(04:29):
to really just extend thatlegacy, right into new areas,
new spheres, new time periods,new mindsets, right. I think
that there are certain mindsetsaround, you know, even just the
use of credit cards. I think formost people, the adage that you
shouldn't even use a credit cardto cut all of your credit cards.
(04:49):
You know, that probably is thebest. Yeah, right. Right. You
know, you talk to a savvymillennial, that might not jive
well, right, right, because Asof things like points, total
reward system, yeah, and thingslike that. But even going a step
further than just credit cards,and things of that nature, I
think what's interesting is howdo we extend the principles of
(05:10):
God beyond debt? into investing?
Yeah. Right. So if we want totake another biblical principle,
really actually, getting out ofdebt is step one, but not the
totality of God's purpose forsomebody's life. Right?
Actually, maintenance, the Biblesays is wicked. We've actually
(05:33):
talked about that maybe a fewtimes in different
conversations. But, you know,Jesus talks about the parable of
the talents. Yep. And the personthat actually just gives back,
what God gave to him is wickedand lazy, crazy. So the
principle of Heaven is notmaintenance, the principle of
Heaven is multiplication. It'sgreat. And so getting out of
(05:55):
debt, yes, great is step one,don't get enslaved to the
bondage of what debt is. But howdo you go beyond even just
maintenance, because converting,getting debt free, and to just
savings is actually not thetotality of God's plan for your
life? The totality of God's planis how do you take whatever God
(06:17):
gave you not just save it, butinvest it? Right? How do you
invest it? How do you work it?
How do you multiply it? And Ithink that's what overflow is
all about. We talk to churchesall the time. And one of the
hesitations right, as a pastorwill tell us, I love what you
guys are doing at a run. I lovehow people will just start that,
you know, encouraging, I lovewhat you guys are doing. I'd
overflow. But you know, there'sso many big the sandwich
(06:40):
technique. There's so many bigbutts, it's a compliment
sandwich. I get it, I get it,you know, we do it. You know,
but I don't think there'sanybody in our congregation that
have stocked to get right, thathave investments to get right.
To which I say, what anopportunity. What an
opportunity. I mean, if you'resaying that nobody in your
(07:02):
congregation is investing, whynot? Why shouldn't we as
shepherds, right, pastors areshepherds, right? Why shouldn't
we, as shepherds guide the flockguide the people of God guide
the saints, into prosperity intoprovision into the way in which
not only do we have maintenance,but we have the miracle of
(07:23):
multiplication, we have themiracle of wealth generation,
why not because of ourselves asa kingdom perspective? Yeah, but
so that we can bless others. Sothat's what I think I'm excited
about to extend. Maybe DaveRamsey, and his team have just
pioneered is financial wellnessto me, goes beyond getting out
of debt. Let's do that. Yep. Butthen beyond that, let's think
(07:45):
about investing. Totally,no, I, I love this idea we're
talking about and to give morecolor to the credit card,
cutting up the credit cardthing, because for the longest
time, I was like, okay, but thisis like, what if I'm good with
it, and like, I use a creditcard as if it's a debit card,
you know, and I'm not like goingover anything like that. But
Dave's whole concept is theentire system of credit cards is
(08:06):
out to get you Sure. And it'sout to take advantage of the
people that can't pay it back.
So he's like, for that reason,get rid of it altogether. And
you can underwrite a house andall that. But I think one of the
hurdles we face comes on theback of that, because they pit
(08:27):
certain currencies against oneanother. Sure, as if I can't
have the ability in my churchfor people to accept crypto,
because crypto is bad, right?
Crypto is gambling of sorts, sopeople can see it like that,
which in many respects, it couldbe that. But also, if people are
using it as an investment tool,then why would we not open all
(08:47):
the doors of opportunity forthat? Oh, yeah, given?
I mean, it's the same thing withanything that's new, right? It's
not that these things areinherently evil, they're
actually a moral. A lot of thetimes these are tools, right?
It's the human heart that cancontextualize it as being used
(09:10):
for good or being used for evil.
And so I would agree, I wouldsay that, you know, whether it's
credit cards or whether it'scrypto, the reality is there are
people that can use it, forthings that are not good. And
there are people that can besuccumb to it for their
destruction, right? We knowbiblically that there is an
enemy that is trying to steal,kill, and destroy. But that
(09:30):
doesn't mean that we then hideout and we fortify Sure. And we,
you know, my pastor says, youknow, we're not meant to like go
in the boondocks and get into alittle trailer and put moss at
the top so satellites can see isthat what we're meant to do?
We're not Amish. Yeah. Right. Isis we're actually meant to
(09:52):
understand that greater is Hethat is in me than he that is in
the world. And so the biblicalnarrative is actually so much
about redemption, not hidingaway. Right? And so how can we
use these things as tools? Okay,cool. Like if it is a
temptation, and you don't havecontrol of the ability to have a
(10:14):
credit card and be disciplinedabout that? Sure. I mean, if you
have certain proclivities, thencut it out of your life, but for
most things, actually the rightanswer, or maybe the more
practical answer is how do youuse that as an opportunity to
exercise discipline? Disciplineis a fruit of the Spirit. Right?
(10:36):
And so instead of removing itfrom your life, like it's this
big bag, scary thing that oh, ifI just, it's gonna burn a hole
in my pocket, I just need toswipe it. I need to swipe.
Right. Instead of thinking aboutthat, how can you leverage it?
Right? So even just the wholething about, okay, we're only
gonna buy our house in cash.
(10:58):
You're gonna be saving for along time in a Silicon Valley.
Yeah. Like, like, like a badhouse is over a million dollars.
Right? Easy, right? In theSilicon Valley. And so how many
people are missing out in thingslike good debt, right? Things
that actually have an investmentelement to it, especially if
it's your primary household?
I've gotten into houses and Ifinanced it, I find it it's a
(11:19):
portion of it. I tried to put asmuch down payment as I can,
because I want to be able toafford my monthlies, right
comfortably. That isstewardship. Yeah, but some of
these investments, right,especially in markets, like the
Silicon Valley, have been someof the best Wealth Generators
for me and my family, right. Andso it's not a knock on some of
these principles that have beentaught to us, especially within
(11:41):
the church. But it's more ofexpanding our perspectives of
Hey, God can work in other ways.
He's not confined to a limitedset of ways that he can work.
Sure. Yeah. I love thatdistinction, because these ideas
can run parallel to one another.
Yeah. Because they're bothending with the same goal. And
that's to give like no one else.
(12:03):
I want to talk about the effectsof debt and what it can do to
people. Yes. And I find the statthat 60% of Americans are living
paycheck to paycheck. That'scrazy. I find that interesting
when I hear the statistic that67% of millennials consider
themselves philanthropist.
Interesting. So if they're bothin the 60 percentile, yeah, then
that means some of these peopleare living paycheck to paycheck
(12:24):
while also giving the very lastdollar seemingly, right. That's
what it feels like. So let'stalk about the effects that
happen when you have debt.
Because I think a lot of peopledon't realize just how deeply
ingrained debt impacts yourlife. Oh, yeah. You have a
(12:45):
creativity block. Because howcan you think about creating
something when you have to thinkabout your four walls and just
being secure? Yeah. Imagine theanxiety knowing that I owe 1000s
of dollars back to thegovernment for student loans.
Yeah. And that burden, and clouddoes not come off for you until
that last dollar is deposited,and you're free again. It just
(13:08):
like it breaks my heart becausethe debt doesn't just happen
with our money. I think we're inso much debt with our time, too.
Yeah. Like, how few people do weknow that are genuinely generous
with their time, like would dropat a moment's notice? To help
you? Right? Yeah. And I knowthis stat that is really mind
(13:30):
blowing. This is one of like, mybiggest passions is 70% of
people don't have a singleperson that they could call in
the middle of a crisis for help.
So interesting. Debt, I feellike is underpinning of lot of
issues. Yeah. For us. It's notjust our finances, but our
entire soul keepingus limited. Yes. Yeah. I mean,
debt is a big danger. Rightdebt, I think you've exposed
(13:53):
some of the ways that itmanifests itself. And so to
debt, I would say the firstthing is get discipline. Right,
right. Right. If you're hurtingand dead, if if you're a church
leader, and you're leadingpeople that are in debt, the
first ingredient is to getdiscipline is to actually start
living by principles. You know,the first thing I actually teach
(14:13):
to somebody, and this might seemcounterintuitive, is when they
tell me that they're drowning indebt, and they can't get ahead
and they're financially inbondage. And it doesn't seem
like they can actually grow intheir finances and their bank
balances and things like that.
The first thing that I asked himand this might seem kind of like
harsh or even crazy, I say, Areyou tithing? If they're in our
(14:34):
church, and they're seekinghelp, yep. Why would with why
why would I withhold theprinciples of God? Yeah, for
their life. The Bible says,Bring all the tithes into the
storehouse and see if I will notopen up a window of heaven and
pour out a blessing so largethat you would not have room to
contain it. God's window is somuch bigger than even our room.
(14:58):
Yeah. Yeah. And so how do wemake more room for God to bless
us? We have to honor him with aportion of our room so that he
can fill it so that he canexceed it. Yeah. Right. And so,
you know, I asked that. And thenthe response typically is, well,
Vance, I just told you, I was indebt, I can't afford to tie to
(15:23):
which I say you can't afford notto. Right. Because the way that
you've been doing it, obviously,is not working. Most of the
time, you know, outside of maybestudent debt, which is maybe a
unique thing. But most of thetime, especially if you're in
credit card debt, it basicallymeans that you're living off
110. And that's what a lot of myfriends do. They don't even want
(15:46):
to look at their bank account,because there's so much anxiety.
They don't want to see thatnegative balance, but bank
balance, they want to see thatoverdraw. Yeah, you know, and
things like that. And so they'retypically, you know, making 100,
for example, and spending 110Each month with a tide does, it
forces you to live on 90. Butthe tide does is it sets a
(16:06):
principle in motion in your lifethat, hey, I'm going to no
matter what, regardless, I'mgoing to recognize that, at the
end of the day, if I believeGod, then I believe that he's a
good father, and he's myprovider. So I'm gonna honor Him
and declare His provision nowover my finances. And so that's
(16:27):
just an example. I mean, that'snot the only thing that people
need to do. But it's an exampleof discipline, am I willing to
put some disciplines in my life?
And then I think that outside ofthat people don't realize that
there's a whole nother game tobe played, which is growth?
Yeah, right. And so a lot oftimes what people will do is
focus so much on trying to cutexpenses, and focus so much on
(16:50):
trying to save it save moneythat they don't think creatively
about how to make more money.
Right? And so there's this wholeelement of okay, you know,
what's in your hand, when Godsays, I shall supply all of your
needs, that's not literallymoney's gonna come from the sky.
(17:11):
I think Manna came down fromheaven in the Bible, but like,
I've never seen it. And so it'sprobably not going to come from
this guy, that's likely notgoing to happen, probably not.
But when the Bible says he'sgoing to supply all your needs,
what it means is, I've given youeverything that you need to
partner with me, right? I'vegiven you gifts, I've given you
(17:32):
talents. And when we talk aboutthe parable of the talents,
we're not just talking aboutfinancially investing, invest in
your skill sets, and see if thatnot see if that won't open up
provision, new provision, andyou're alive, right. And so I
think those are different ways.
It's like discipline, but it'salso you're actually seeing an
early creativity.
(17:53):
I think the tithe is one of themost important disciplines
because if you start tithing, itmakes investing into retirement
accounts, for instance, so mucheasier. Interesting, because
this concept of it's not mineanyways. So good. It makes it so
so simple. When ever itautomatically takes money out of
(18:14):
your bank account each month.
You're like, yeah, it wasn'tmine. Anyways, I'm putting it
away for thefuture was this topic for you?
And Jared, when you guys gotmarried? Was it a hot topic? Or
were you guys were justcompletely aligned immediately?
We crazy enough? We'recompletely aligned. Cool
immediately. And I know that'sprobably rare. In fact, the the
stats show that most people arenot aligned financially. Um, but
(18:34):
yeah, it's, it's really lookinglong term. And I'm not
notoriously a long term thinker.
I'm very emotionally driven,which is great. But I have a
husband who is not. Yeah, yeah.
Yes, exactly. I love that. But,you know, we have friends who
they're in their 40s. And theydon't have they didn't have a
(18:56):
single penny set aside forretirement. Okay. Like we
recently were like, We need tohave an intervention with them.
Because they're not thinkingabout the long term impacts, and
how their family down the roadwill be impacted by that, as
well. And yes, it's not sexy tolike, think about retirement,
because I want to live now inthe moment. But everything we do
(19:20):
when it comes to like tithing aswell, it's this whole concept
of, I'm investing in somethingthat's bigger than me, and
something that isn't evennecessarily for me, but just to
honor God or honor my familydown the road. And so that's
kind of the lens in which we seeit through now is like, we're
honoring, whenever we'retithing, and we're investing.
I love that. And you know, Ithink the point of this
(19:43):
especially for church leaders,pastors, senior church leaders,
executive teams, forcommunities, faith communities,
specifically is we're talkingabout people in our circle that
are struggling with finances.
Why wouldn't the church rise upin this time to be able to
provide programs, people,mentors, resources to be able to
(20:04):
pour into people. And yes,whether it's okay, let's start
with Dave Ramsey's FinancialPeace University and get debt
free, or starting to invest intoyour church and teaching them
what it means to actuallygenerate wealth. Yeah, right.
Something that we spend a lot oftime here at Vive is okay, maybe
a big proportion of our churchare not necessarily struggling
(20:26):
with debt. But what we do try tocultivate is this spiritual
spirit of entrepreneurshipthat's naturally here, right.
And so if people are looking fortheir next step in financial
freedom, really a lot of thatunlock comes in your ability to
be entrepreneurial, your abilityto be a maker, a creator, your
ability to own certain assetsand to grow certain things. And
(20:50):
so we talk a lot here about thatat five church, because if we
want to actually make an impact,right, in society, if we want to
infiltrate their differentspaces and spheres, it's gonna
require resources. Yeah, it'sgonna require people in
prominent places. This isbiblical. Daniel, in the Bible,
(21:13):
if you actually read the book ofDaniel, you could see that he
got elevated to especially afterthe lions den and all that if
you're in Sunday school, youknow, I'm talking about he got
elevated to the Bible saysmaster of the Magi. Okay, who
are the Magi, the Magi weretheir advisors to the king. The
Magi were kingmakers the Magi,were congressmen, Congresswoman
(21:37):
politicians, people of prestige.
When you say king maker and men,they're the ones who appointed
the people in charge. These werewell respected people in the
Bible says Daniel, was themaster of the Magi. How crazy is
that? That a man of God that gotimprisoned in a dungeon for his
(22:02):
faith? Because, you know, theysaid, Hey, if you pray, you
know, you're going to go and hesaid, Okay, let me open up the
window. Yeah, you know, let meopen up the window and actually
show you how I pray, you know, aman of faith was promoted was
elevated by God to be the masterof the magic, check this out.
(22:23):
What's so interesting about thatstory is that we see, hundreds
of years later, right? Who werethe first people that identified
the Savior, as Jesus when He wasborn in a major, the Magi.
That's the first time I thoughtabout that, the
Magi. So there was this Magi,people in the eastern Persian
(22:48):
Empire culture, that had handeddown prophecies from Daniel, for
hundreds of years, becauseDaniel was in a place of
prominence, he was able to teachthe Hebrew tradition to Persian
people of influence, and tellthem of a day that will come
that there will be a Messiah,that saves the world. Right. And
(23:13):
at that time, maybe the Magijust thought it was just talking
smack. Maybe the Magi was like,I don't know what you're talking
about. What was interesting isin the Persian tradition, their
religion was actually a study ofthe stars. And so that was also
passed down. So check this out.
There's two simultaneous thingshappening. The study of the
stars is being passed down Magi,people to Magi, people, to Magi,
(23:33):
people. And so what signaled themagi to even check out what was
happening with this person thatwas born in a major a star,
because something had happened.
Yeah, that had never happened inthe sky before. And so they they
were following that star. Sotheir religion, Buddhism, Islam,
(23:56):
atheism, the worship oftechnology, whatever their
religion was, was forcing themto follow this star. And then
when they met Jesus in person,all of a sudden, all that
residual teaching of what Danielhad taught to their people,
about this Hebrew God, aboutthis Messiah that was going,
(24:17):
going to come all startedclicking in one moment. And the
first people to ever identifyJesus as Savior and Lord, were
Gentiles. That's crazy. And sowhen I talk about resources,
when I talk about cultivatingyour skill set, when I talk
about entrepreneurship, when Italk about believing God to
(24:41):
elevate you in prominent places,I'm not talking about it on a
level just because it's cool foryou. I'm talking about it on a
level that this is generationimpacting the balance. The
balance is held by this planthat God had So to partner with
you that whether it's for yourchildren, or whether it's for
(25:04):
400 years down the line, couldyou make yourself available to
live by principle, to investyour money and your skill sets
so that you can start thinkinggenerationally so that you can
start thinking about legacy?
I have nothing else. That was,that was amazing. I just, I keep
(25:26):
getting so excited about theconcept of like, How can I
invest not financially, but withmy time, like thinking of
everything in our lives as aninvestment in our faith in our
walk with God in ourrelationship with our spouses,
with our families, like with thechurch, man, the possibilities
here are endless credit. And oneof the key ways to start
(25:46):
investing is to first make it apriority, make it a priority to
get out of debt. It's a door anda pastor listening
to this, if you're a churchleader, if you're a small group
leader, if you have any sort ofinfluence within your church,
and there's people followingyou. Why don't you consider
adding into your leadership mix?
The discussions around finances,you would be surprised how many
(26:08):
people might reveal to you thisis a stressor in their life.
You'd be surprised how manypeople are so locked up with
anxiousness about this topic,but what a great thing that
you're in their life and what agreat thing that you listen to
this podcast. So good.
Give it up for Dave Ramsey.
Let's go getting out of debt.
And the principle investing andtithing. Love it. Boom. Thanks
(26:32):
so much for listening to thegive it up podcast if you want
to receive even more insights onchurch innovation, culture, and
giving. Now you can sign up forfree to be an overflow insider
where you'll receive exclusivecontent discounts direct access
to Vance Roush to get yourquestions answered. And also
invite only access to ourmonthly fundraising leadership
(26:53):
forums, head to overflow.cobackslash insider, or just click
the link in our bio to sign upfor free today. In order to get
this podcast in the ears of evenmore church leaders. Could you
please subscribe and leave areview for the show? This tells
the podcast players what peopleare enjoying and want to hear
more of and we are adamant aboutproviding maximum value to even
(27:16):
more church leaders. Thanks somuch. We'll see you next time.
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