August 24, 2025 • 22 mins
Beth shares her decade-long healing journey from divorce, revealing how losing her marriage helped her discover she'd never truly found herself. We explore the difference between healthy independence and over-independence, why yellow flags deserve as much attention as red ones, and how building a metaphorical toolbox helps navigate future challenges.
• Moving from blame to accountability as the first step in healing
• Losing independence before marriage and transferring dependency from twin sister to spouse
• Starting small with solo activities to rebuild confidence and self-reliance
• Learning to wave yellow flags instead of pocketing them in relationships
• Standing up for your worth through difficult conversations
• Building an emotional toolbox for handling triggers and challenges
• Finding balance between independence and willingness to share life with someone
• Using daily gratitude journaling to end each day on a positive note
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, welcome back.
This is Go Ask Sawyer, and I am, jamie, your host, and welcome
to Season 5.
Season 5 is all about puttingthe microphone in your hands.
I want to hear what you have tosay when it comes to things
that you have healed from.
I've talked far and wide abouteverything that I have gone
(00:22):
through, anything that I havefelt, and I really want to hear
from you because I think thebest way we learn is through
community and through otherpeople.
So today I have Beth on thepodcast.
Beth, do you want to say hi, hi, and she's going to talk about
her healing journey, an event orsomething that she had to heal
(00:45):
from, because, again, it doesn'talways have to be.
You know, a lot of us talkabout we had to heal from family
or friends or breakups, andeveryone has a different story.
So, beth, what is an event,what is something that you want
to talk about that you've healedfrom or are in the process?
Because healing is, of course ajourney cyclical or a journey.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Okay, so for me, thank you for having me.
For me, I would say my, andthat was again fully healed.
I think it's you worked throughit, but I would say my divorce
for sure.
And what did you ask me?
How I heal, how are you?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Okay, so well, let's start with that.
You're divorced.
That was how long ago, gosh,it's been so long, I don't even
know.
Oh, like 10 years, 10, 11 years.
So this has been a 10-yearprocess.
And let me ask you this,because I don't know if we all
know right when things happen.
Did you know you had to healthen, or is this something that
you've been like dang, this isnot going away, or this issue?
(01:46):
I need to do some working.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
You know, I don't hindsight when it happened I
didn't think.
I thought I was like I don'tneed healing, like I'm fine.
She was the problem, not me.
Until maybe like a year after,when we tried to reconcile our
differences and I'm like this isjust not it and my self worth
went to the toilet.
So it was like a year after.
(02:08):
I'm like this is notsomething's wrong, I need to
repair something.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
So it sounds like you had to repair something
yourself 100%, like, 100% me.
I knew it was all me.
So what have you done?
What are like?
We all have tools.
What are some things that havebeen helpful to you, or what are
some things that you're doing?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I think the first thing I did was to admit that it
was that I needed to fix me andnot put blame on her, because I
think that was the easy fix tobe like she's a problem, yeah.
But I went to counseling for awhile.
So much came out of that and wecan get into that if you want.
So much came out of that and Iwas like, wait, there was so
much that I needed to unpack.
That wasn't just her and I, andthat was like childhood type
(02:47):
stuff, yeah, and if it wasn'tfor that, I don't think I would
have ever been to where I'm atnow.
So the first thing wascounseling and I think,
admitting that it wasn't all her, that it was me.
I'm like I need to fix mebefore I can carry on.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Is there like one or two big things that you notice
in yourself that, like, example,anger or jealousy or
communication I'm trying tothink of, like things in me that
I'm working on?
Were there one or two thingsthat you're like, dang I, this
isn't.
This is an issue.
And if it did, come fromchildhood?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yes, 100% yes.
I think one thing that came outof it was and one thing I never
thought I've lost myindependence and I didn't even
know I lost it and it really hadnothing even to do with my
marriage.
So I'm an identical twin and upto that point everything I did
was with my twin.
And then I got married and thenit shifted and I kind of put my
(03:39):
independence like cohabitatingwith my wife.
So after we divorced I was likeI don't have anything and I
relied on, like my sister foreverything.
And I think, going throughcounseling it was like how do I
find me after divorce?
Because I used to have my twinwho then was in a relationship.
Yeah, like I have nobody.
And it was such a dark time andI was like, wait, I need to
(04:00):
find me.
And counseling helped merealize you can do stuff on your
own, it's going to be okay.
So I think that was the biggestthing for me was finding my
independence and not relying onsomebody else to constantly fill
my bubble.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
So for anyone else that's listening and they're
like, oh my gosh, we wentthrough something similar, or
I've lost myself, or I don'tknow how to do things alone.
I always have to have someone,people right.
Like we become this, like, howdo I do this?
Like, how did you find yourindependence?
I?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
think it started small and I think I remember one
day I left counseling and wewere talking about starting
small and just whatever it was.
I think maybe going groceryshopping or something alone
starting small, just doing itand not thinking about it I mean
hindsight now I'm anoveranalyzer Just to do it and
not think about it.
I still struggle now withsaying yes to things without
(04:49):
overanalyzing, but at that timeit was like just do the small
things by yourself.
And when I started doing themmore often I was like, oh my
gosh, where is this better money?
Why haven't I been doing thesethings by myself the entire time
?
Yeah, because I think we alwaystake the easy route and just do
it with somebody else.
Yeah, the small things, verysmall.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Okay.
So telling anyone out therelike, start small right.
Like go to a park by yourself,go grocery shopping by yourself.
The more you do small things itjust becomes Habit, habit,
natural.
How do you feel you are now?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Well, I think I've found, even after the divorce,
going through counseling, I,after my divorce, I hit rock
bottom.
I literally had nothing.
I was living with my twinsister at the time and going
through counseling, trying to gothrough the loss of my wife and
trying to find myself again.
So I think I slowly started towrite goals for myself
(05:40):
physically writing them down,not just like, oh, someday I'd
like to buy a house.
Physically wrote down I want tobuy a house, bought my house 10
years ago, moved in here withnothing and doing the things on
my own to make this.
My own house has taught me somuch about myself knowing I can
do all this on my own.
When I started with thecounseling, knowing that my
issue was not being able tofunction without somebody there
(06:04):
all the time Okay.
And now it's.
Now it's my home and this isall I know is independence.
Yeah, okay, so I do have aquestion about that.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
This is all I know is independence.
Do you think you know how to bein relationship to to depend on
someone, or do you think you'vegone so far over this way that
now you're so terrified Maybeterrified is not the right word,
no, that might be my first wordso terrified to go slip back
into, like what if someone takesit from me again that I don't
(06:33):
even want to allow, I don't wantto say someone in, but like
that whole idea of like fallingback.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yeah, when you asked me that, I feel like my throat
just got tight, like, yes,sharing my space with somebody a
day or two, a couple of days isfine, but I've always told
myself I love bath time and I do.
Yeah, but I also want to knowwhat it's like to live with
somebody and to have a love withsomebody.
So I don't know what that'slike.
I'd like to say I don't needthe independence and I don't
(07:01):
want that forever, but it doesscare me.
Yeah, need the independence andI don't want that forever, but
it does scare me Thinking ofsharing my house with somebody
and breaking my habits whichthey need to be broke, because
I'm a creature of habit itscares me to death.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
I mean I will say I haven't lived with anyone for a
long time, but I would also.
It's easy to date when you'renot living with someone or when
you're just spending like littlebits of time because you know
eventually they're going toleave.
You can go back into your wayof living.
You can put everything back inits spot.
You don't have to like for me,I just apparently like to be
messy.
(07:32):
I mean, I know how messy I liketo be until my boys have moved
out.
If I come home and I'm like,why is it such a mess in here?
And I'm like, dang it, it's me.
And then I'm like what if Istart dating someone and then
we've been together and now Ihave to be clean again?
I think there's a good balance.
I do think there's a balanceand sometimes I need.
I think right now I'm in aweird space of I've never been
(07:53):
here before with no children tolike have to do anything for.
Yeah, so it's like a differentkind of freedom.
But I do like the dance of youteach me some things, you teach
me some things, like we teacheach other things, where we both
have to let go of habits hereand there.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yes, because I know I'm a creature of habit.
So when things are like out ofplace and sometimes I panic, I
know that it's just a temporarything and bigger picture, like,
if I want somebody in my lifelong term, that's such a minor
thing to worry about, but itdoes.
It does.
It's in the back of my mind.
I am giving up my not myfreedom because I want to give
(08:31):
that up.
Like I want to share my spacewith somebody and if it's the
right, person.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Is it giving up your freedom, or is it just seeing it
in a different way?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
yeah, I think it's.
It's in sharing my life with me, because my life here is great,
but I want to share it.
It's not fun picking up my ownmess no it's really not.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
And my dog and cat?
No one helps out.
Gunnar doesn't help and Oliverdoesn't help, and, if anything,
oliver makes a bigger mess withmy plants.
Okay.
So independence findingyourself maybe a little bit over
independent, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I guess I never thought about that until you
just asked how I came fromhaving to always.
You know, even before I gotmarried, my relationships were
always short, sweet move on tothe next one and then I got
married.
And then I got married and thenI realized, like why did I
always think I needed somebody?
I don't need somebodyconstantly.
(09:22):
And now I'm completely oppositeof that.
Like since my breakup I've hadone serious relationship, and
it's been how many years.
So it's funny now that you saythat I'm understanding that I
craved dependency at the time.
Now it's like am I overindependent?
So I think that's.
Thank you for bringing that up.
You're very well.
Now it's like am I overindependent?
So I think that's it.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Thank you for bringing that up.
You're very welcome.
That's a suitcase you canunpack.
Yes, it's a big one.
But what are some other thingsmaybe that have come out of your
marriage that you're like manif I would have done this
different, or if I would havedone this different, maybe I
could have let different thingsgo.
That's tough.
Besides the, independence thing.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, because when I was married, and even after that
, I didn't even realize that wasan issue.
But I think it maybe goes backto seeing some of the I'll call
them like yellow flags early,because it was the honeymoon
phase and I thought this is it,this is forever.
I pocketed those like oh, it'llbe fine once we're married
because she wants to be with meforever.
And then once that commitmentwas made, the skeletons came out
(10:25):
of the closet.
But they were there.
I just ignored them originally.
So I think had they come outearlier, maybe we talked about
them, they would have beeneasier to handle.
But the signs were there earlyon and I just kind of put them
away like nope, this is what Iwant is a marriage, this is what
everybody wants.
And you know, I had the personat that time thinking this is it
.
I'm like I ignored those flagsearly on and I shouldn't have.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
That's very annoying to ignore in hindsight right,
like I was listening to apodcast today about how we see
so clearly when we the only waywe like learning in life and
seeing clearly, understandingwas when we look backwards and
you can clearly see like, oh mygosh, this has happened because
of this, this and this.
But like moving into the future, like we just can't see it.
We're so blind to it.
(11:10):
And the yellow flags, the redflags I feel like we see and
we're having fun at the circusand we just don't want to deal
with that.
But like I think the yellowflags are harder because it's
not that big of a deal.
You, it's not that big of adeal.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
You don't want to make a big deal, you don't want
to turn it into a red flag, youwant to turn it into a green
flag, like it's okay, but don'tpocket them.
I think that's what I did.
I never even addressed it, Inever talked about them.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
I literally put them in my pocket.
Could you give me an example ofa yellow flag?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
And it can be from anything that you wish you would
have just had a conversationabout instead of pocketing it.
Yeah, one of the issues I won'tgo too deep into it, but it was
mental health struggles anddoing something to address that
was never talked about.
It was a very negative thing,like going to get help getting a
medication.
Talking to somebody was a verylike no, we're not going to do
that.
I'm bigger than that, I'mbetter than that.
So as soon as I saw that comeup, I knew that was her stance
on it.
So it was never talked about.
(12:07):
So I just put the pocket in mypocket, thinking that's okay,
she wants me forever.
Those issues will go away andthey don't, they do not.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
No, okay, so anyone listening?
Don't put the yellow flags inyour pocket.
Red flags are a big no, walkthe other way.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yellow flags have the conversation Wave them in the
air, wave them in the no.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Walk the other way.
Yellow flags, have theconversation.
Wave them in the air.
Wave them in the air, have theconversation I do.
That is something that I wish,and I know you and I have talked
about this like I wish I wouldhave been braver enough to have
hard conversations right away,because then it would just
either take the elephant out ofthe room Everyone knows where we
stand and you can makedecisions better instead of
thinking, well, it's going toget better, yeah, or I can
(12:46):
change their mind or I'm sure,with enough love because all we
need is love that it will allwork itself out.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
That's so true and I think early on I didn't want to
push, I didn't want to step ontoes, I didn't want to upset her
.
So I tiptoed around it and waslike, do you want to talk about
it?
And her lack of talking aboutit was a sign for me that I
should have been like this needsto be talked about.
But talking about it more justmade the problems worse, which
is another sign.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Because I also am thinking to myself yes, it was
her issue, okay.
But how much am I showing myself-worth right when we are
standing up for ourselves, whenwe are putting ourselves first,
when we allow someone to say,nope, we're not going to talk
about that, and we're like, oh,okay, are we automatically
telling ourselves, now, well, myfeelings aren't important, and
then they're not valid?
(13:31):
So it's like the first step ofself-abandonment is when
someone's like we're not talkingabout that and you are like,
okay, cool, instead of sayinglike, no, my feelings are just
as valid in this and I am worthit.
I am worth this hardconversation, I am worth
whatever fight is about tohappen.
And if you can't see that, it'slike a way for you to stand up
for yourself.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
A hundred percent and the best.
Today I'd definitely stand upand have the conversation,
because sometimes I just talktoo much.
Back then my self-worth was solittle that that's what happened
.
Her word was the word, the word.
So when she didn't want to talkabout it, I was like yes, ma'am
, we're not talking about it.
(14:11):
I would have never questionedit.
I would have never been likebut wait, are you sure?
The person I am now would havebeen like I'm not okay with that
.
Yeah, let's talk about it whenyou're ready.
But that was not 100%, and Ican see my self-worth has
changed so much since I wasmarried until now where, if I'm
not getting what I want, I wouldhave never backed down and been
like oh okay, that's cool,let's just leave it there.
(14:34):
Now I'm like no, we get to talkabout it, but I think that's
the flag that I pocketed.
Instead of pulling it out andbeing like, let's talk about it,
I was like okay, nope, youdon't want to, sweet, I think
that's really hard, it's reallyhard.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
It's scary and it's hard when you love someone
because it's like I might haveto leave this person.
If I have this conversation andI totally understand everyone
who you know those emotions rundeep and that love runs deep,
and especially if yourself-worth is not where it needs
to be.
It is just like I just don'twant to lose this person.
But that's where I keep comingback to like if I love myself
enough, I would be okay withsaying like well, I got to lose
(15:10):
you.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Then, yeah, like this is where I'm at.
And I think too, I was soscared to push because I knew if
I pushed she would get angryand explosive To the chaos.
Yeah, and I would just be like,oh God, I'd bring down.
And I'm like, oh my God, whatshould I do?
So I avoided it, where now Idon't avoid tough conversations,
(15:32):
but I do agree, having themearly on would avoid that in the
long term.
But I was not in a place backthen.
I was much younger.
Obviously I would have neverknown to even have that
conversation.
But now it's like hindsight,looking back, I'm like, well,
duh.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
I know it's like dang it and that's the thing is,
like I could have avoidedheartbreak.
I could have avoided a lot ofthings.
However, because of that, itcatapulted you into this.
Like I got to get my shittogether.
Something is not okay.
This should not have happened.
What do I need to do?
Because of that, and as suckyas heartbreaks are, it just
catapults you.
(16:06):
If you do it, if you're willingto look within, that's.
The other thing I'm going tosay is, like, not a lot of
people are willing to sit withtheir self and be like I'm not
going to blame the other personbecause it was me, yeah, and not
because everything was me.
Maybe some things were them,but like, at the end of the day,
like what was my part in this?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Right, we all had accountability and both of us
had accountability in it to acertain degree.
I mean, I definitely first yearI took full blame, I fell on me
and then I had hindsight alittle bit later, like maybe it
was her, regardless we're.
I mean it's fine now, but hadthat not happened, I don't know
where I'd be.
That was literallylife-changing Good.
(16:44):
You know.
We got married and at the timeit was the best thing ever.
Then I hit rock bottom.
But had I not hit rock bottom,I'd never be where I am today,
like I don't know the personthat I would still be if I was
mentally, emotionally, stillthat same way.
It's wild to think had you metme 10 years ago you'd be like
who is this, who is this girl?
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Isn't that crazy.
I don't know.
Like sometimes I don't want tolike thank people that broke me
or broke my heart or whatever,but it's like also thank you,
don't need to thank you hard.
Also thank you because you'vemade me into this amazing person
.
And also you oh, you can't havemy energy.
But we've talked about yourself-worth.
We've talked about pocketingyellow flags and just knowing
your worth and knowing yourself.
Let me ask you this what doeshealing look like for you?
(17:25):
How do you know you're healed?
Speaker 2 (17:27):
I don't know if I'll ever know if I'm like 100%
healed, but I know.
I think it's twofold.
I have a vision in my head thatI have this big old toolbox,
lots of drawers and tools that Ican pull out.
So when I'm feeling a way Iknow how to handle it, because I
think I'm always going to be.
There's always going to besomething I need to heal from,
(17:49):
whether it's like family,friends, love.
Things happen.
I can't avoid that.
But I feel I have a biggertoolbox that I can be like oh,
this is the problem.
I've got the right tool to getme through it and not stay in a
place where I'm not happy.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Like where you get stuck Right Because it's kind of
like, okay, I'm feeling this,yeah, I have three different
things I can do to get myselfout, instead of just like
wallowing.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Right and staying in a negative space, I know how to
get myself out quicker thanmaybe I did before.
So I can envision this liketoolbox.
I'm like, okay, I know how to.
I've read stuff about it.
I know how to handle this.
Bring it, let me try it.
So that's what I think of.
Like I said, I don't think I'llever be healed, but how to
(18:33):
handle life, I feel like I havea big toolbox.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, I don't think we're ever healed, because I
feel like new triggers come upand then you're like, oh son of
a bitch.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
It's like I don't have the right tool for this.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
I don't have the right tool, or like something
still hurts, Like a little woundstill opens up, but I can tell
I'm healing.
When A I don't react the sameway, B I can acknowledge like
ooh, that triggered something.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
I think for me it's not.
I'm quick to react, so ifsomething like zaps me, I'm like
, oh shit, that hurt.
Maybe in the past I wouldinstantly react and like talk or
get upset.
But when I have that trigger, Ithink first, like you said,
identifying it like oh, I'mtriggered.
Have that trigger, I thinkfirst, like you said,
identifying it like oh, I'mtriggered.
(19:22):
No, let me go find the righttool instead of just reacting
out of pure emotion.
Identifying when that happensis so big and that's when you
take the moment to think, oh, myGod that just happened and
you're not letting the momentcontrol you.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I wish more people understood that when they're
feeling triggered and they wantto just lash out at someone for
whatever reason, right, and theyjustly I think that's the right
word they are justified to feelwhatever way they want to feel.
But I wish more peopleunderstood that those triggers
are what's showing you parts ofyou that are still needing love,
that are still needing grace,and it's okay to feel that way.
(19:54):
And the quicker you're able tosay like whoa, I am feeling this
, the quicker you are able todeal with the problem instead of
maybe lashing out about it orgoing off at a friend or doing
something so stupid that younormally wouldn't.
And now you have to repair allof this other stuff because you
weren't just like dude, I'mbeing triggered right now.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yes, taking the five-second rule or whatever.
It is where you're triggeredand instead of just like, oh,
react, blow up, get mad, saynasty things, do the box
breathing.
Yeah, taking that second to belike, oh shit, yeah, something's
going to blow.
Let me just take a minute andthen uncover what is about to
happen.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah, yeah, I can do that.
Okay, as we are getting towardthe end, wrapping it up, I'm
wondering if there's anythingelse you would like to share
with our thousands of listenersin A either the importance of
healing, the importance of beingreflective, or self-worth.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I'll say and this might be not what you were
thinking, but so I journal daily.
But I think one thing that'sreally helped me too is being
grateful.
And so at the end of the day, Ialways end my day writing what
I'm grateful for, because to meit's like it ties everything
together, like I don't care howbad my day was.
I know I'm going to bed, thisis what I'm thankful for.
(21:12):
And being grateful, beinggrateful, giving it, receiving
it is great, but giving it andjust sharing like how grateful
you are.
I know some people may get likeannoyed by it, but I feel like
there's just not enough of it.
Yeah, finding myself doing thatevery single night and writing
down at least three things,three simple things, something
as simple as the sun was outtoday, yeah, ties up my day so
(21:35):
great that I just want to shareit and be like everybody just
needs to just take it right downand your day with being
grateful.
It just makes my heart smile.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
I think that's great.
I think that's great and I'mgrateful that you have shared
that.
I'm also very grateful that youshare your story.
Like, it is not easy to come ona podcast with thousands of
listeners, hi.
It is not easy to also shareabout a divorce or a past
relationship and to own.
Hey, I had to look at myself.
I had to do X, y and Z, andthere's plenty of people that
(22:07):
are going through stuff rightnow, and I'm just very thankful
that you're willing to do this.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, pretty much, we should doit again.
Okay, all right, friends, weare going to wrap it up and I
look forward to talking with youagain next Sunday.
So until then, please stay cuteand dance even though nobody's,
watching.
So until next Sunday, stay cuteand remember dance, even if
(22:31):
everyone is watching.
Bye.
Hey, welcome back.
This is Go Ask Sawyer, and I am, jamie, your host, and welcome
to Season 5.
Season 5 is all about puttingthe microphone in your hands.
I want to hear what you have tosay when it comes to things
that you have healed from.
I've talked far and wide abouteverything that I have gone
(00:22):
through, anything that I havefelt, and I really want to hear
from you because I think thebest way we learn is through
community and through otherpeople.
So today I have Beth on thepodcast.
Beth, do you want to say hi, hi, and she's going to talk about
her healing journey, an event orsomething that she had to heal
(00:45):
from, because, again, it doesn'talways have to be.
You know, a lot of us talkabout we had to heal from family
or friends or breakups, andeveryone has a different story.
So, beth, what is an event,what is something that you want
to talk about that you've healedfrom or are in the process?
Because healing is, of course ajourney cyclical or a journey.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Okay, so for me, thank you for having me.
For me, I would say my, andthat was again fully healed.
I think it's you worked throughit, but I would say my divorce
for sure.
And what did you ask me?
How I heal, how are you?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Okay, so well, let's start with that.
You're divorced.
That was how long ago, gosh,it's been so long, I don't even
know.
Oh, like 10 years, 10, 11 years.
So this has been a 10-yearprocess.
And let me ask you this,because I don't know if we all
know right when things happen.
Did you know you had to healthen, or is this something that
you've been like dang, this isnot going away, or this issue?
(01:46):
I need to do some working.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
You know, I don't hindsight when it happened I
didn't think.
I thought I was like I don'tneed healing, like I'm fine.
She was the problem, not me.
Until maybe like a year after,when we tried to reconcile our
differences and I'm like this isjust not it and my self worth
went to the toilet.
So it was like a year after.
(02:08):
I'm like this is notsomething's wrong, I need to
repair something.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
So it sounds like you had to repair something
yourself 100%, like, 100% me.
I knew it was all me.
So what have you done?
What are like?
We all have tools.
What are some things that havebeen helpful to you, or what are
some things that you're doing?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I think the first thing I did was to admit that it
was that I needed to fix me andnot put blame on her, because I
think that was the easy fix tobe like she's a problem, yeah.
But I went to counseling for awhile.
So much came out of that and wecan get into that if you want.
So much came out of that and Iwas like, wait, there was so
much that I needed to unpack.
That wasn't just her and I, andthat was like childhood type
(02:47):
stuff, yeah, and if it wasn'tfor that, I don't think I would
have ever been to where I'm atnow.
So the first thing wascounseling and I think,
admitting that it wasn't all her, that it was me.
I'm like I need to fix mebefore I can carry on.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Is there like one or two big things that you notice
in yourself that, like, example,anger or jealousy or
communication I'm trying tothink of, like things in me that
I'm working on?
Were there one or two thingsthat you're like, dang I, this
isn't.
This is an issue.
And if it did, come fromchildhood?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yes, 100% yes.
I think one thing that came outof it was and one thing I never
thought I've lost myindependence and I didn't even
know I lost it and it really hadnothing even to do with my
marriage.
So I'm an identical twin and upto that point everything I did
was with my twin.
And then I got married and thenit shifted and I kind of put my
(03:39):
independence like cohabitatingwith my wife.
So after we divorced I was likeI don't have anything and I
relied on, like my sister foreverything.
And I think, going throughcounseling it was like how do I
find me after divorce?
Because I used to have my twinwho then was in a relationship.
Yeah, like I have nobody.
And it was such a dark time andI was like, wait, I need to
(04:00):
find me.
And counseling helped merealize you can do stuff on your
own, it's going to be okay.
So I think that was the biggestthing for me was finding my
independence and not relying onsomebody else to constantly fill
my bubble.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
So for anyone else that's listening and they're
like, oh my gosh, we wentthrough something similar, or
I've lost myself, or I don'tknow how to do things alone.
I always have to have someone,people right.
Like we become this, like, howdo I do this?
Like, how did you find yourindependence?
I?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
think it started small and I think I remember one
day I left counseling and wewere talking about starting
small and just whatever it was.
I think maybe going groceryshopping or something alone
starting small, just doing itand not thinking about it I mean
hindsight now I'm anoveranalyzer Just to do it and
not think about it.
I still struggle now withsaying yes to things without
(04:49):
overanalyzing, but at that timeit was like just do the small
things by yourself.
And when I started doing themmore often I was like, oh my
gosh, where is this better money?
Why haven't I been doing thesethings by myself the entire time
?
Yeah, because I think we alwaystake the easy route and just do
it with somebody else.
Yeah, the small things, verysmall.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Okay.
So telling anyone out therelike, start small right.
Like go to a park by yourself,go grocery shopping by yourself.
The more you do small things itjust becomes Habit, habit,
natural.
How do you feel you are now?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Well, I think I've found, even after the divorce,
going through counseling, I,after my divorce, I hit rock
bottom.
I literally had nothing.
I was living with my twinsister at the time and going
through counseling, trying to gothrough the loss of my wife and
trying to find myself again.
So I think I slowly started towrite goals for myself
(05:40):
physically writing them down,not just like, oh, someday I'd
like to buy a house.
Physically wrote down I want tobuy a house, bought my house 10
years ago, moved in here withnothing and doing the things on
my own to make this.
My own house has taught me somuch about myself knowing I can
do all this on my own.
When I started with thecounseling, knowing that my
issue was not being able tofunction without somebody there
(06:04):
all the time Okay.
And now it's.
Now it's my home and this isall I know is independence.
Yeah, okay, so I do have aquestion about that.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
This is all I know is independence.
Do you think you know how to bein relationship to to depend on
someone, or do you think you'vegone so far over this way that
now you're so terrified Maybeterrified is not the right word,
no, that might be my first wordso terrified to go slip back
into, like what if someone takesit from me again that I don't
(06:33):
even want to allow, I don't wantto say someone in, but like
that whole idea of like fallingback.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yeah, when you asked me that, I feel like my throat
just got tight, like, yes,sharing my space with somebody a
day or two, a couple of days isfine, but I've always told
myself I love bath time and I do.
Yeah, but I also want to knowwhat it's like to live with
somebody and to have a love withsomebody.
So I don't know what that'slike.
I'd like to say I don't needthe independence and I don't
(07:01):
want that forever, but it doesscare me.
Yeah, need the independence andI don't want that forever, but
it does scare me Thinking ofsharing my house with somebody
and breaking my habits whichthey need to be broke, because
I'm a creature of habit itscares me to death.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
I mean I will say I haven't lived with anyone for a
long time, but I would also.
It's easy to date when you'renot living with someone or when
you're just spending like littlebits of time because you know
eventually they're going toleave.
You can go back into your wayof living.
You can put everything back inits spot.
You don't have to like for me,I just apparently like to be
messy.
(07:32):
I mean, I know how messy I liketo be until my boys have moved
out.
If I come home and I'm like,why is it such a mess in here?
And I'm like, dang it, it's me.
And then I'm like what if Istart dating someone and then
we've been together and now Ihave to be clean again?
I think there's a good balance.
I do think there's a balanceand sometimes I need.
I think right now I'm in aweird space of I've never been
(07:53):
here before with no children tolike have to do anything for.
Yeah, so it's like a differentkind of freedom.
But I do like the dance of youteach me some things, you teach
me some things, like we teacheach other things, where we both
have to let go of habits hereand there.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yes, because I know I'm a creature of habit.
So when things are like out ofplace and sometimes I panic, I
know that it's just a temporarything and bigger picture, like,
if I want somebody in my lifelong term, that's such a minor
thing to worry about, but itdoes.
It does.
It's in the back of my mind.
I am giving up my not myfreedom because I want to give
(08:31):
that up.
Like I want to share my spacewith somebody and if it's the
right, person.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Is it giving up your freedom, or is it just seeing it
in a different way?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
yeah, I think it's.
It's in sharing my life with me, because my life here is great,
but I want to share it.
It's not fun picking up my ownmess no it's really not.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
And my dog and cat?
No one helps out.
Gunnar doesn't help and Oliverdoesn't help, and, if anything,
oliver makes a bigger mess withmy plants.
Okay.
So independence findingyourself maybe a little bit over
independent, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I guess I never thought about that until you
just asked how I came fromhaving to always.
You know, even before I gotmarried, my relationships were
always short, sweet move on tothe next one and then I got
married.
And then I got married and thenI realized, like why did I
always think I needed somebody?
I don't need somebodyconstantly.
(09:22):
And now I'm completely oppositeof that.
Like since my breakup I've hadone serious relationship, and
it's been how many years.
So it's funny now that you saythat I'm understanding that I
craved dependency at the time.
Now it's like am I overindependent?
So I think that's.
Thank you for bringing that up.
You're very well.
Now it's like am I overindependent?
So I think that's it.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Thank you for bringing that up.
You're very welcome.
That's a suitcase you canunpack.
Yes, it's a big one.
But what are some other thingsmaybe that have come out of your
marriage that you're like manif I would have done this
different, or if I would havedone this different, maybe I
could have let different thingsgo.
That's tough.
Besides the, independence thing.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, because when I was married, and even after that
, I didn't even realize that wasan issue.
But I think it maybe goes backto seeing some of the I'll call
them like yellow flags early,because it was the honeymoon
phase and I thought this is it,this is forever.
I pocketed those like oh, it'llbe fine once we're married
because she wants to be with meforever.
And then once that commitmentwas made, the skeletons came out
(10:25):
of the closet.
But they were there.
I just ignored them originally.
So I think had they come outearlier, maybe we talked about
them, they would have beeneasier to handle.
But the signs were there earlyon and I just kind of put them
away like nope, this is what Iwant is a marriage, this is what
everybody wants.
And you know, I had the personat that time thinking this is it
.
I'm like I ignored those flagsearly on and I shouldn't have.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
That's very annoying to ignore in hindsight right,
like I was listening to apodcast today about how we see
so clearly when we the only waywe like learning in life and
seeing clearly, understandingwas when we look backwards and
you can clearly see like, oh mygosh, this has happened because
of this, this and this.
But like moving into the future, like we just can't see it.
We're so blind to it.
(11:10):
And the yellow flags, the redflags I feel like we see and
we're having fun at the circusand we just don't want to deal
with that.
But like I think the yellowflags are harder because it's
not that big of a deal.
You, it's not that big of adeal.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
You don't want to make a big deal, you don't want
to turn it into a red flag, youwant to turn it into a green
flag, like it's okay, but don'tpocket them.
I think that's what I did.
I never even addressed it, Inever talked about them.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
I literally put them in my pocket.
Could you give me an example ofa yellow flag?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
And it can be from anything that you wish you would
have just had a conversationabout instead of pocketing it.
Yeah, one of the issues I won'tgo too deep into it, but it was
mental health struggles anddoing something to address that
was never talked about.
It was a very negative thing,like going to get help getting a
medication.
Talking to somebody was a verylike no, we're not going to do
that.
I'm bigger than that, I'mbetter than that.
So as soon as I saw that comeup, I knew that was her stance
on it.
So it was never talked about.
(12:07):
So I just put the pocket in mypocket, thinking that's okay,
she wants me forever.
Those issues will go away andthey don't, they do not.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
No, okay, so anyone listening?
Don't put the yellow flags inyour pocket.
Red flags are a big no, walkthe other way.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yellow flags have the conversation Wave them in the
air, wave them in the no.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Walk the other way.
Yellow flags, have theconversation.
Wave them in the air.
Wave them in the air, have theconversation I do.
That is something that I wish,and I know you and I have talked
about this like I wish I wouldhave been braver enough to have
hard conversations right away,because then it would just
either take the elephant out ofthe room Everyone knows where we
stand and you can makedecisions better instead of
thinking, well, it's going toget better, yeah, or I can
(12:46):
change their mind or I'm sure,with enough love because all we
need is love that it will allwork itself out.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
That's so true and I think early on I didn't want to
push, I didn't want to step ontoes, I didn't want to upset her
.
So I tiptoed around it and waslike, do you want to talk about
it?
And her lack of talking aboutit was a sign for me that I
should have been like this needsto be talked about.
But talking about it more justmade the problems worse, which
is another sign.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Because I also am thinking to myself yes, it was
her issue, okay.
But how much am I showing myself-worth right when we are
standing up for ourselves, whenwe are putting ourselves first,
when we allow someone to say,nope, we're not going to talk
about that, and we're like, oh,okay, are we automatically
telling ourselves, now, well, myfeelings aren't important, and
then they're not valid?
(13:31):
So it's like the first step ofself-abandonment is when
someone's like we're not talkingabout that and you are like,
okay, cool, instead of sayinglike, no, my feelings are just
as valid in this and I am worthit.
I am worth this hardconversation, I am worth
whatever fight is about tohappen.
And if you can't see that, it'slike a way for you to stand up
for yourself.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
A hundred percent and the best.
Today I'd definitely stand upand have the conversation,
because sometimes I just talktoo much.
Back then my self-worth was solittle that that's what happened
.
Her word was the word, the word.
So when she didn't want to talkabout it, I was like yes, ma'am
, we're not talking about it.
(14:11):
I would have never questionedit.
I would have never been likebut wait, are you sure?
The person I am now would havebeen like I'm not okay with that
.
Yeah, let's talk about it whenyou're ready.
But that was not 100%, and Ican see my self-worth has
changed so much since I wasmarried until now where, if I'm
not getting what I want, I wouldhave never backed down and been
like oh okay, that's cool,let's just leave it there.
(14:34):
Now I'm like no, we get to talkabout it, but I think that's
the flag that I pocketed.
Instead of pulling it out andbeing like, let's talk about it,
I was like okay, nope, youdon't want to, sweet, I think
that's really hard, it's reallyhard.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
It's scary and it's hard when you love someone
because it's like I might haveto leave this person.
If I have this conversation andI totally understand everyone
who you know those emotions rundeep and that love runs deep,
and especially if yourself-worth is not where it needs
to be.
It is just like I just don'twant to lose this person.
But that's where I keep comingback to like if I love myself
enough, I would be okay withsaying like well, I got to lose
(15:10):
you.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Then, yeah, like this is where I'm at.
And I think too, I was soscared to push because I knew if
I pushed she would get angryand explosive To the chaos.
Yeah, and I would just be like,oh God, I'd bring down.
And I'm like, oh my God, whatshould I do?
So I avoided it, where now Idon't avoid tough conversations,
(15:32):
but I do agree, having themearly on would avoid that in the
long term.
But I was not in a place backthen.
I was much younger.
Obviously I would have neverknown to even have that
conversation.
But now it's like hindsight,looking back, I'm like, well,
duh.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
I know it's like dang it and that's the thing is,
like I could have avoidedheartbreak.
I could have avoided a lot ofthings.
However, because of that, itcatapulted you into this.
Like I got to get my shittogether.
Something is not okay.
This should not have happened.
What do I need to do?
Because of that, and as suckyas heartbreaks are, it just
catapults you.
(16:06):
If you do it, if you're willingto look within, that's.
The other thing I'm going tosay is, like, not a lot of
people are willing to sit withtheir self and be like I'm not
going to blame the other personbecause it was me, yeah, and not
because everything was me.
Maybe some things were them,but like, at the end of the day,
like what was my part in this?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Right, we all had accountability and both of us
had accountability in it to acertain degree.
I mean, I definitely first yearI took full blame, I fell on me
and then I had hindsight alittle bit later, like maybe it
was her, regardless we're.
I mean it's fine now, but hadthat not happened, I don't know
where I'd be.
That was literallylife-changing Good.
(16:44):
You know.
We got married and at the timeit was the best thing ever.
Then I hit rock bottom.
But had I not hit rock bottom,I'd never be where I am today,
like I don't know the personthat I would still be if I was
mentally, emotionally, stillthat same way.
It's wild to think had you metme 10 years ago you'd be like
who is this, who is this girl?
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Isn't that crazy.
I don't know.
Like sometimes I don't want tolike thank people that broke me
or broke my heart or whatever,but it's like also thank you,
don't need to thank you hard.
Also thank you because you'vemade me into this amazing person
.
And also you oh, you can't havemy energy.
But we've talked about yourself-worth.
We've talked about pocketingyellow flags and just knowing
your worth and knowing yourself.
Let me ask you this what doeshealing look like for you?
(17:25):
How do you know you're healed?
Speaker 2 (17:27):
I don't know if I'll ever know if I'm like 100%
healed, but I know.
I think it's twofold.
I have a vision in my head thatI have this big old toolbox,
lots of drawers and tools that Ican pull out.
So when I'm feeling a way Iknow how to handle it, because I
think I'm always going to be.
There's always going to besomething I need to heal from,
(17:49):
whether it's like family,friends, love.
Things happen.
I can't avoid that.
But I feel I have a biggertoolbox that I can be like oh,
this is the problem.
I've got the right tool to getme through it and not stay in a
place where I'm not happy.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Like where you get stuck Right Because it's kind of
like, okay, I'm feeling this,yeah, I have three different
things I can do to get myselfout, instead of just like
wallowing.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Right and staying in a negative space, I know how to
get myself out quicker thanmaybe I did before.
So I can envision this liketoolbox.
I'm like, okay, I know how to.
I've read stuff about it.
I know how to handle this.
Bring it, let me try it.
So that's what I think of.
Like I said, I don't think I'llever be healed, but how to
(18:33):
handle life, I feel like I havea big toolbox.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, I don't think we're ever healed, because I
feel like new triggers come upand then you're like, oh son of
a bitch.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
It's like I don't have the right tool for this.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
I don't have the right tool, or like something
still hurts, Like a little woundstill opens up, but I can tell
I'm healing.
When A I don't react the sameway, B I can acknowledge like
ooh, that triggered something.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
I think for me it's not.
I'm quick to react, so ifsomething like zaps me, I'm like
, oh shit, that hurt.
Maybe in the past I wouldinstantly react and like talk or
get upset.
But when I have that trigger, Ithink first, like you said,
identifying it like oh, I'mtriggered.
Have that trigger, I thinkfirst, like you said,
identifying it like oh, I'mtriggered.
(19:22):
No, let me go find the righttool instead of just reacting
out of pure emotion.
Identifying when that happensis so big and that's when you
take the moment to think, oh, myGod that just happened and
you're not letting the momentcontrol you.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I wish more people understood that when they're
feeling triggered and they wantto just lash out at someone for
whatever reason, right, and theyjustly I think that's the right
word they are justified to feelwhatever way they want to feel.
But I wish more peopleunderstood that those triggers
are what's showing you parts ofyou that are still needing love,
that are still needing grace,and it's okay to feel that way.
(19:54):
And the quicker you're able tosay like whoa, I am feeling this
, the quicker you are able todeal with the problem instead of
maybe lashing out about it orgoing off at a friend or doing
something so stupid that younormally wouldn't.
And now you have to repair allof this other stuff because you
weren't just like dude, I'mbeing triggered right now.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yes, taking the five-second rule or whatever.
It is where you're triggeredand instead of just like, oh,
react, blow up, get mad, saynasty things, do the box
breathing.
Yeah, taking that second to belike, oh shit, yeah, something's
going to blow.
Let me just take a minute andthen uncover what is about to
happen.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah, yeah, I can do that.
Okay, as we are getting towardthe end, wrapping it up, I'm
wondering if there's anythingelse you would like to share
with our thousands of listenersin A either the importance of
healing, the importance of beingreflective, or self-worth.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I'll say and this might be not what you were
thinking, but so I journal daily.
But I think one thing that'sreally helped me too is being
grateful.
And so at the end of the day, Ialways end my day writing what
I'm grateful for, because to meit's like it ties everything
together, like I don't care howbad my day was.
I know I'm going to bed, thisis what I'm thankful for.
(21:12):
And being grateful, beinggrateful, giving it, receiving
it is great, but giving it andjust sharing like how grateful
you are.
I know some people may get likeannoyed by it, but I feel like
there's just not enough of it.
Yeah, finding myself doing thatevery single night and writing
down at least three things,three simple things, something
as simple as the sun was outtoday, yeah, ties up my day so
(21:35):
great that I just want to shareit and be like everybody just
needs to just take it right downand your day with being
grateful.
It just makes my heart smile.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
I think that's great.
I think that's great and I'mgrateful that you have shared
that.
I'm also very grateful that youshare your story.
Like, it is not easy to come ona podcast with thousands of
listeners, hi.
It is not easy to also shareabout a divorce or a past
relationship and to own.
Hey, I had to look at myself.
I had to do X, y and Z, andthere's plenty of people that
(22:07):
are going through stuff rightnow, and I'm just very thankful
that you're willing to do this.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, pretty much, we should doit again.
Okay, all right, friends, weare going to wrap it up and I
look forward to talking with youagain next Sunday.
So until then, please stay cuteand dance even though nobody's,
watching.
So until next Sunday, stay cuteand remember dance, even if
(22:31):
everyone is watching.
Bye.
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Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.