March 31, 2025 • 26 mins
What happens when you need long-term care but haven't planned for it? Barbara Martin, elder law attorney at Beattie Padovano,, pulls back the curtain on the often overwhelming world of estate planning, revealing solutions most families discover too late.
The financial reality is sobering - assisted living in Bergen County costs up to $12,000 monthly, with memory care reaching $18,000. These expenses can rapidly deplete even substantial savings, especially since Medicare only covers short-term rehabilitation. Without proper planning, families face the painful process of spending down assets until qualifying for Medicaid. Barbara explains how the crucial "five-year lookback" period means planning must begin long before need arises - ideally in your 60s or early 70s.
Barbara demystifies the differences between various legal tools. Powers of attorney prevent the expensive court battles required when no one can access accounts during a health crisis. Revocable trusts help avoid probate but provide no asset protection, while irrevocable trusts can shield assets from creditors and assist with Medicaid planning - though they require surrendering permanent control of those assets.
Perhaps most fascinating are the creative approaches Barbara has implemented for clients concerned about wealth undermining their children's ambition. One client structured distributions to match their children's W-2 earnings - effectively doubling their income but only if they remained productively employed. This innovative strategy addresses Warren Buffett's famous concern about leaving children "enough money to do anything, but not enough to do nothing."
Whether your estate is modest or substantial, proper planning prevents family disputes, protects hard-earned assets, and ensures your wishes are honored when you can no longer advocate for yourself. Don't wait for a crisis to discover you're missing the original documents banks and courts require. Take action now - your future self and family will thank you.
Beattie Padovano, LLC
Barbara Martin
201-573-1810
200 Market Street, Suite 401
Montvale, NJ 07645
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is the Good Neighbor Podcast, the place
where local businesses andneighbors come together.
Here's your host, Doug Drohan.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of
the Good Neighbor Podcast comingto you live from Bergen County,
brought to you by the BergenNeighbors Media Group, based in
Harrington Park, new Jersey.
And just down the road.
Basically you could jog there.
You don't even have to be muchof a runner to get to Haworth,
new Jersey.
And just down the road,basically you could jog there.
You don't even have to be muchof a runner to get to Haworth,
new Jersey.
We are joined by Barbara Martinof Beatty Padovano Law Firm.
(00:33):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Oh, thanks, Doug.
Thanks for having me on theshow.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, and I said Haworth, but obviously the firm
is located in Montfail, whichisn't too far from here either,
but you have a connection toHaworth which we'll get into.
So, Beatty Potivano, what kindof firm?
What do you guys specialize in?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
So, beatty, it's a full service firm.
They do a lot of land use, theydo a lot of commercial deals
and litigation, and myparticular area, though, is
elder law, trusts and estates,estate planning and
administration.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Got it, got it.
So I have had a lot of seniorcare guests.
You know, demographics of mytown, you know kind of have a
(01:28):
need for knowing who to trustwhen it comes to senior care,
whether it's a senior carelocator to help you find a home,
or it's elder law to stateplanning, or it's Medicare, or
it's dementia care, things likethat.
So what got you into?
Like when you went to lawschool, did you from the get-go
think I want to get into elderlaw and estates and trusts?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
From the get-go.
I had a background inaccounting so I had an interest
in tax.
So I was interested immediatelyin doing trusts for asset
protection and dealing withissues like that.
And as but more and more peoplestarted coming to me after law
school with like crisis planning.
(02:13):
You know, their parent was inthe hospital, nobody had any
documents, nobody could takecharge of their health, their
finances and deal with thosethings, and it kept happening
their health, their finances anddeal with those things and it
kept happening.
So I think a naturalprogression then was from trust
to the estate planning to try toget it less of a crisis
planning and get people to bemore proactive.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Right.
So what was it that drew you tojust the accounting and the
trust side of things?
Did you have any experiencelike people in your family, or
was it just something that Didyou have?
Speaker 3 (02:44):
any experience like people in your family, or was it
just something that?
No, in college I took themajority accounting classes and
and tax classes.
So, that's what I was doing allthrough college and right after
so yeah just had a.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
So you mentioned crisis planning.
The issue that I hear a lot ofwhen it comes to senior care and
elder law is that people don'tplan very well for their next
transition in their in theirlives and therefore a lot's left
to their, their family membersand themselves to figure out.
You know, whether it comes toMedicaid planning, you know a
lot of people don't havelong-term care insurance.
You know who's the trustee,who's the executor.
(03:27):
Do I have a?
You know a lot of people don'thave long term care insurance.
You know who's the trustee,who's the executor.
Do I have a?
You know all these differentdirectives.
Have I done anything?
Have I updated my will?
And a lot of these issues cometo the forefront.
When somebody is faced with.
You know whether they havedementia or you know they pass
away.
They have dementia or you knowthey pass away.
It's, it's incredible.
I would think that you knowwhen people come to you, like
(03:48):
you said, it is a time of crisis.
So what do you do to try to?
educate people to not wait untilthe 11th hour to to do it.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
So what I usually do is I'm talking to the sandwich
generation, the people who aremy age and maybe 10 years older,
and they're taking care of kidsand they're taking care of
their parents.
So go and ask parents thesequestions who is the power of
attorney?
Do they have one to makefinancial decisions if they go
into a rehab or a hospital for along time?
(04:22):
Do they have any idea what itcosts to be in assisted living?
Because that number is stunningand a significant amount of
people just have not planned forthose kinds of numbers.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Let's talk about those numbers, cause in Bergen
County we're talking average ofwhat?
6,000 a month.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
No, in Bergen County we're at like 10 to 12.
And if you're in memory care,sometimes 18,000 a month.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
A month yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
So these are significant numbers and Medicare
only pays for a certain amountof days in assisted living
facilities for rehabilitationefforts, mm-hmm.
So the parents and the familiesfind themselves on the doorstep
of a really expensiveproposition very quickly.
So in order to, I'd say, youknow, take a look at your assets
(05:18):
, let's see if we can do someadvanced planning to protect
some assets.
But you have to do it early.
You have to start five years inadvance of whenever you need it
.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
It's called a five-year.
Look back, right.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Five-year look back.
So we do that.
Sometimes I have people who arein the hospital but they have
no powers of attorney, so no onecan get to those accounts, no
one can make those financialdecisions to even put them in a
rehab or the medical whathappens in that case, if there's
no POA, what happens?
If there's no POA and someonedoes not have authority over the
(05:53):
account, the family has to movefor a guardianship or a
conservatorship over that personand their finances, and that's
a very long and expensiveproposition.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
So hire an attorney, and then you have to go before a
judge.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
You have to submit it to the court, so it takes a
long time, whereas if you do alittle bit of advanced planning,
it's inexpensive for a power ofattorney, healthcare proxy and
will and you can get everythingyou need and everyone designated
that you need for asignificantly less amount of
(06:29):
expenditure.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
So, going back to the asset protection because we're
in Bergen County, there arepeople with a lot of assets and
correct me if I'm wrong but withMedicaid, Medicaid only pays
for your senior care.
Say, you're staying at Allegroor something like that.
It doesn't kick in until youhave no money left.
(06:52):
So basically, you could saveyour entire life.
You could have $2 million inyour retirement account and now
you have to spend $12,000 amonth and that's where all your
money's going.
So forget about leaving moneyfor your family.
You need that $12,000 a monthand that's where all your
money's going.
So forget about leaving moneyfor your family.
You need that $12,000 a monthto pay for your senior care and
the only one that's allexhausted.
(07:12):
Will Medicaid kick in?
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Well, in a sense it's correct because there are
things where they won'timpoverish the spouse.
The spouse will still get tolive in the house.
You know there's some deep inthe weeds things, but if you
want to plan for, you know,possibly becoming Medicaid
eligible, you need to startdoing it early in your 60s and
(07:38):
early 70s.
Not in my office when you're 90.
But I have people at 95 come inand want to do this and I'm
like we're probably not going tomake that.
Look back, you know it'ssomething in the 60s you really
need to think about.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
You know it's funny my parents are 90 and their will
hasn't been updated since the80s and I keep asking them to
update it because my my brother,is in there.
Well, my brother passed away 26years ago okay and I'm like,
yeah, we'll get, we'll get intoit, we're getting.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I'm like you're 90 years old, you know when are you
going to get to it yeah, theyshould get to it, because you
know what certain wills say if,even if a sibling passes away,
then it goes to their children,the grandchildren right right.
So it really depends what thewill says, and that's the other
thing.
They need to think about thewill, because if you don't have
one, it just passes by operationof law and testate, which is
(08:33):
not exactly how some people wanttheir assets to be, distributed
.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
And then you've got multiple kids, multiple kids.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Right, you've got grandkids or you know you want
someone to be the executor.
If you don't have a will, theneverybody else has to renounce.
That's on the same uh line.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
All the siblings have to choose who's going to be the
administrator right um or andwe know where that could go
sometimes, you know right thatends up in litigation sometimes.
Yeah, so when it comes to thingslike that, there's certain
kinds of trusts.
You know there's irrevocabletrust, revocable trust, family
(09:16):
trust.
So what do you recommend afamily do Say they have three
kids or four kids what do yourecommend they do in terms of
protecting their assets and dodo things like that?
Do you trust complex, complextrusts like that?
If it is complex, are they aform of asset protection?
And I would imagine they'realso a form of litigation
(09:39):
protection, because now you haveclear, designated people
involved in making decisions.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Right, so you can have.
So if you have just a revocabletrust, that only goes to avoid
probate, there is no assetprotection associated.
Okay, just keeps your assetsprivate, avoids probate.
But the irrevocable trust, youcan place an asset in that and
(10:06):
then there's an asset protectionto them.
A third party can't reach inand grab those assets because
they're no longer owned by you.
It's out of your authority butthe caveat is difficult to get
back in your authority.
Can't change that trust.
(10:26):
Can't change those beneficiaries, you need to be certainly sure
that this is what and how youwant your asset distributed as a
falling out between a parentand their child.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
There's never been an example of siblings having, you
know, issues with each other.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
So you have to be very certain that you're making
that tradeoff asset protectionfor giving up your rights to
change this trust.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Got it, got it.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
So if you want to change it I mean there's complex
ways of doing it, it costs alot and they don't always work.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Are there any other kind of trusts you can create
that would fall under assetprotection?
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Well, irrevocable is the large, you know, the
umbrella that they all fallunder.
Then we have dynasty truststhat pass assets among
generations.
That pass assets amonggenerations and they stay in the
trust and the trust justdisperses them to children,
(11:36):
grandchildren,great-grandchildren, as it goes
along.
Family trusts do the same thing, sometimes on a wider to
different siblings and then downthrough the generations, but
they're generally under theirrevocable trust umbrella.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Does a family trust, do any of these trusts protect
you from liabilities?
Say you get sued becausesomebody tripped in front of
your house.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
So if you create the trust, right, yeah, you've
placed the asset in the trust,so only the um assets in the
trust will be protected and thenif you have assets outside the
trust if they sue youindividually right they can
reach those, those assets.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
But if you put your home, if you put your home in
the trust, which is a bigdecision because, as you said,
you're giving somebody theirrevocable, the trust, which is
a big decision because, as yousaid, you're giving somebody the
irrevocable right to your home,but it is protected in case of
things like that.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
It is a big decision.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
And that's part of the five-year look-back.
So if it's under someone else'sownership, we'll say, then
that's not counted against you,I guess, for want of a better
word After the five-year rights.
After the five-year rent, afterthe five years, right yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
So the trustee, it's a trustee in the name of the
trust that is that owner at thattime.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Okay, Got it, Got it.
So I mean, yeah, there's somuch that goes into it, and I
think maybe one of the reasonswhy a lot of people put it off
like even the sandwichgeneration that you and I are
part of is because it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
It is a lot.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
And is there?
I mean, is it very expensive tohave a trust drawn up?
I mean, I guess it depends onthe complexity of it.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
It depends on the complexity.
The revocable trusts aregenerally not too expensive.
The irrevocable trust, itreally depends how many assets
are being transferred into it,whether the assets have to be
retitled, like a house, orwhether there's brokerage
accounts that are easy toretitle and you don't need to
(13:40):
record it you are going to haveif you have multiple trustees or
significant requirements foryour beneficiaries to receive
the money, like do they need tofinish college?
Do they need to have a job?
The more complex it gets, themore money it costs.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
So there's this movie on Netflix.
Don't ask me why I'm watchingit, because I'm certainly not
their key demographic, butwhat's the name of it?
It's a story about a woman whohas three kids.
One of them is a daughter, andthe woman knows she's dying of
cancer, I guess, and in the will.
She owns a company and she saysin the will that her daughter,
(14:24):
who is currently like the headof marketing, is no longer with
the company.
She's getting fired because hermother wants her to basically
fulfill this list that she wrotewhen she was 13 to go off and
live her life.
Her mother feels like she's notliving her best life, so as she
completes these tasks, there'sa DVD that her mom made of each
(14:46):
stage to talk to her daughterbeyond the grave, basically, but
she left her all these thingsthat she had to do in order to.
Once she completes these, thenshe will inherit the money that
was left for her.
So I guess that's a Hollywoodversion of it.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Yeah, I write incentive trust.
They're called that's the name.
And you incentivize the personto do all different things, and
then they receive the money.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
And it's the job of you, as the lawyer, as the
estate attorney, to make surethat they fulfill those.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Well, you know what?
We appoint a trustee.
Whoever they appoint as thetrustee, they're the one who
makes sure they fulfill thesethings before the money gets
dispersed.
But I draft it as an incentivetrust because people want to
give their children enough moneyto have a good life or do
something, but not too much sothey can't do.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
So they don't do nothing right like warren
buffett, I think he's right,right, so they incentivize them
to do things right.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Don't do nothing right like warren buffett, I
think he's right, right, so theyincentivize them to do things
right right, because isn't therelike a statistic like
generational wealth it's, youknow, by the third generation
they've basically squandered itsquandered it all yeah yeah,
yeah so well, there's a sayingthat tough times uh make.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Uh, how does it go?
Tough people and tough peoplemake good times and it go Tough
people.
Tough people and tough peoplemake good times and good times
make soft people and soft peoplemake tough times.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
So what is it so?
Obviously you've been doingthis a while and I'd imagine
there's some cases are verystandard and others, as we're
talking about, are more complex.
Is there any example of aclient that you've had, without
naming names, that just chumpsout at you, of a special
(16:36):
instance or experience?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
I did have a pretty wealthy client who wanted his
children to receive money butwork and work towards things
they wanted.
So we created a trust wherethey only got paid their
distribution the amount thatmatched their W-2 for each year.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
So their W-2 or their schedule say you know we work
with them, so it incentivizedthem to work.
So that they would get doublethe amount, but if they didn't
work the next year, they didn'tget anything wow so that was an
interesting way to do it yeah,yeah because it was a
significant, a significant uhestate and trust yeah and so so
(17:26):
it grew.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
You give me some ideas.
Not that I have a significantestate, but hey, you know, and
I'd imagine, if you do that, ifyou have multiple children and
you do that for each of them,some of them fulfill it and some
of them don't.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Some of them don't.
Sometimes you know we have to.
You know a trust is a good idea, because sometimes you have
people get a whole lot of moneyall at one shot and then they
either OD on drugs so it keepsthat from happening because you
hold the reins of the money orthey just squandered on gambling
(18:02):
or expensive.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
So so now what I, you know, I'm going to dig into
like headlines or expensive.
I'm going to dig into headlines.
I guess that you read in thenews the guy's married second,
third time.
He's got a ton of money.
His third wife, who's like 30years younger than him, who is
(18:26):
as old or as young as the kids,is named in the will, right?
I mean, I guess there's nothingthe kids can do, right?
I mean, if she's, if the guy'sof sound mind and body, If he's
of sound mind and body.
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
There's nothing they can do about the will.
But they can speak with theirfather and say you know, there
is a bank account or there's abrokerage account or the IRA.
Maybe we should be thebeneficiaries on it, because
then that doesn't pass throughthe well.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
But I do have that a lot.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, and I'd also.
I've heard stories of how,because maybe the assets weren't
protected, the third wifedoesn't now.
Her husband needs senior care,but she doesn't want to squander
her inheritance on his care.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
So in.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
New Jersey we don't have a familial statue.
Other states do.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (19:17):
They say children and spouses have to shoulder the
burden of the care of the person.
But New Jersey doesn't havethat.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
So what does that mean?
Speaker 3 (19:29):
they can just so that that means if that woman has,
uh, you know, just her own money.
She doesn't she, she would haveto pay for his medical bills.
But she doesn't necessarilyhave to pay, you know, for the
nicest nursing facility or evenwhere you know she could put
them into a state run nursinghome instead of uh she can move
(19:52):
them out of state put them in acheap yeah.
Cause it's cheaper out of statemostly.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah.
So, yeah, I mean there's somany.
I mean there's so manyintricacies and different
scenarios that go into this.
I could see why you were drawnto it and you know, I think in
the most, in most of your cases,you're helping people and they
walk away, you know, feelingbetter and fulfilled, and
(20:19):
obviously there's some caseswhere there's some litigation
involved.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
And for those cases we have a whole third floor full
of litigators and for thosecases we have a whole third
floor full of litigators oh okay.
The real contest and the trustcontest and the wipe that you
know, the third wipe thatbreezed in at the last minute
and took all the money.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Right, right, yeah, interesting, so.
So let's get back to the firmfor a minute.
So, beatty Padovano, how longhas the firm been around?
Speaker 3 (20:47):
About 55 years at this point Wow 55 years Okay.
Yeah, so the 55 years they do asignificant amount of land use
and development in Montvale andBergen County, and then we have
a corporate law and commercialleasing department and an entire
(21:07):
litigation floor for all typesof litigation.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Got it, got it OK, and and so I mentioned that
you're down the road fromHarrington Park, you're in
Haworth, new Jersey, so you knowyour commute to Montfail isn't
so bad.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
No, not too bad.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Not too bad.
So is there anything we didn'ttalk about?
When it comes to elder care,elder law, sorry estate planning
, is there anything like anyadvice that we didn't talk about
?
Because I think it's reallyimportant and when I talk to
people like you, I usually pickup the phone and call my parents
and say you know, you reallygot to do this, like who's who's
(21:47):
the power of attorney.
And there's three sisters andmyself.
I live in New Jersey, I have asister in Long Island, where we
grew up, and I have a sister inMyrtle beach and the sister in
Florida where my parents live.
So it could be a huge mess.
So they own a house.
They don't own a lot, but uh,you know, every time, like you
(22:07):
know, when we're done here, I'msure I'm calling them up and
saying, hey, when are we goingto do this?
Speaker 3 (22:11):
I'll pay for the, the attorney, to get your will
updated, you know I think thatif they, the first question is
do you have a power of attorney?
Because if one of them goesinto the hospital and then no
one can you know arrange theircare and pay for, pay for, pay
their taxes, pay theirhomeowner's insurance, then it's
(22:33):
going to come out of everyindividual's personal pockets,
it's going to come out of allthe siblings' pockets.
So that's number one.
Number two if they live inFlorida, they need to have a
Florida attorney, do it?
Speaker 2 (22:50):
They may want to do a trust because probate is
different in each state, so canyou just educate what is probate
.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
So probate is when we take the will to the court and
they review the will and thedeath certificate and the
petition and then I'll give youa formal order appointing
someone the executor Okay.
And then the executor can reachall the banks, get all the
assets, pay all the taxes Okay.
(23:16):
But in Florida most people havetrust because probate is a
really long process and in NewYork it's a really long process.
So you have a trust New Jerseyvery quick.
So wills work out just as wellas a revocable trust.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Got it.
Now what if you had your willdrawn up 30 years ago and you
can't find it?
Is that a problem?
You actually can't find thepaperwork.
It's filed in the courts.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
No, it's not filed in the courts.
So, usually people don't filean original will with any
repository and you need theoriginal one to go to probate,
Otherwise you have to file acomplaint with a copy of it.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
So you want to have the original, you want the
original death certificate, theoriginal will.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I don't know where my will is.
I need to go find it.
You need to find it.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
I get that it's like I don't know where it is.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
I'm like then, and I know there's a little cottage
industry of businesses, ofpeople that will go help you do
that.
They'll look, they'll help youfind all your.
You know documents like that,your will and other things, so
you know everything's in order.
It's kind of like a homeorganizer, except they organize
your your, your documents, rightyeah, so you can see there's a
(24:34):
need for it, you know, as longas you trust them.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
You need the original yeah, All right and the
original power of attorney.
You want to make sure you havethat too, because a lot of banks
aren't going to take a copy.
So that's important to have.
Yeah, so you want to make sureall that kind of thing is in
order.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
And Barbara, do you do any speaking engagements to
educate the communities likethis?
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Sometimes I speak to the seniors groups, sometimes I
hold them at the library, andthat's about it.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Well, you and I should talk offline, because I
have some ideas.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
So, yeah.
So yeah, I used to do a podcast15-minute coffee break estates.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Nice.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Yeah, because it was during COVID and everyone had
questions and everybody neededhelp ASAP.
So it was a way to just getsome information quickly out
there.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Yeah, that's good, that's smart.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Yeah, so it was a practical way, bring that back
maybe.
Because I get calls all thetime and people they don't know
where the power of attorney is.
They don't know where the willis.
They can't get in touch withthe banks and banks will not
talk to you unless you have thaton file.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
So making notes right now I gotta go find my will.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
So yeah, go find it.
That's number one.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Hopefully it's in the safe, but yeah, and your
parents.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
You make sure they have one down in Florida.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yeah, well, like I said, they haven't updated it
since the 80s.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
And it needs to be properly witnessed and notarized
for the state they're in.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Because it's different.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Well, we could go on and on about this and we'll have
a second episode.
Yeah, barbara Martin, thank youvery much for joining us today.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah, yeah, this is great and we're just gonna have
chuck close this out and you andI'll be right back.
Thank you for listening to thegood neighbor podcast.
To nominate your favorite localbusinesses to be featured on
the show, go to gnpbergencom.
That's gnpbergencom, or call201-298-8325.
This is the Good Neighbor Podcast, the place
where local businesses andneighbors come together.
Here's your host, Doug Drohan.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of
the Good Neighbor Podcast comingto you live from Bergen County,
brought to you by the BergenNeighbors Media Group, based in
Harrington Park, new Jersey.
And just down the road.
Basically you could jog there.
You don't even have to be muchof a runner to get to Haworth,
new Jersey.
And just down the road,basically you could jog there.
You don't even have to be muchof a runner to get to Haworth,
new Jersey.
We are joined by Barbara Martinof Beatty Padovano Law Firm.
(00:33):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Oh, thanks, Doug.
Thanks for having me on theshow.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, and I said Haworth, but obviously the firm
is located in Montfail, whichisn't too far from here either,
but you have a connection toHaworth which we'll get into.
So, Beatty Potivano, what kindof firm?
What do you guys specialize in?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
So, beatty, it's a full service firm.
They do a lot of land use, theydo a lot of commercial deals
and litigation, and myparticular area, though, is
elder law, trusts and estates,estate planning and
administration.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Got it, got it.
So I have had a lot of seniorcare guests.
You know, demographics of mytown, you know kind of have a
(01:28):
need for knowing who to trustwhen it comes to senior care,
whether it's a senior carelocator to help you find a home,
or it's elder law to stateplanning, or it's Medicare, or
it's dementia care, things likethat.
So what got you into?
Like when you went to lawschool, did you from the get-go
think I want to get into elderlaw and estates and trusts?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
From the get-go.
I had a background inaccounting so I had an interest
in tax.
So I was interested immediatelyin doing trusts for asset
protection and dealing withissues like that.
And as but more and more peoplestarted coming to me after law
school with like crisis planning.
(02:13):
You know, their parent was inthe hospital, nobody had any
documents, nobody could takecharge of their health, their
finances and deal with thosethings, and it kept happening
their health, their finances anddeal with those things and it
kept happening.
So I think a naturalprogression then was from trust
to the estate planning to try toget it less of a crisis
planning and get people to bemore proactive.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Right.
So what was it that drew you tojust the accounting and the
trust side of things?
Did you have any experiencelike people in your family, or
was it just something that Didyou have?
Speaker 3 (02:44):
any experience like people in your family, or was it
just something that?
No, in college I took themajority accounting classes and
and tax classes.
So, that's what I was doing allthrough college and right after
so yeah just had a.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
So you mentioned crisis planning.
The issue that I hear a lot ofwhen it comes to senior care and
elder law is that people don'tplan very well for their next
transition in their in theirlives and therefore a lot's left
to their, their family membersand themselves to figure out.
You know, whether it comes toMedicaid planning, you know a
lot of people don't havelong-term care insurance.
You know who's the trustee,who's the executor.
(03:27):
Do I have a?
You know a lot of people don'thave long term care insurance.
You know who's the trustee,who's the executor.
Do I have a?
You know all these differentdirectives.
Have I done anything?
Have I updated my will?
And a lot of these issues cometo the forefront.
When somebody is faced with.
You know whether they havedementia or you know they pass
away.
They have dementia or you knowthey pass away.
It's, it's incredible.
I would think that you knowwhen people come to you, like
(03:48):
you said, it is a time of crisis.
So what do you do to try to?
educate people to not wait untilthe 11th hour to to do it.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
So what I usually do is I'm talking to the sandwich
generation, the people who aremy age and maybe 10 years older,
and they're taking care of kidsand they're taking care of
their parents.
So go and ask parents thesequestions who is the power of
attorney?
Do they have one to makefinancial decisions if they go
into a rehab or a hospital for along time?
(04:22):
Do they have any idea what itcosts to be in assisted living?
Because that number is stunningand a significant amount of
people just have not planned forthose kinds of numbers.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Let's talk about those numbers, cause in Bergen
County we're talking average ofwhat?
6,000 a month.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
No, in Bergen County we're at like 10 to 12.
And if you're in memory care,sometimes 18,000 a month.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
A month yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
So these are significant numbers and Medicare
only pays for a certain amountof days in assisted living
facilities for rehabilitationefforts, mm-hmm.
So the parents and the familiesfind themselves on the doorstep
of a really expensiveproposition very quickly.
So in order to, I'd say, youknow, take a look at your assets
(05:18):
, let's see if we can do someadvanced planning to protect
some assets.
But you have to do it early.
You have to start five years inadvance of whenever you need it
.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
It's called a five-year.
Look back, right.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Five-year look back.
So we do that.
Sometimes I have people who arein the hospital but they have
no powers of attorney, so no onecan get to those accounts, no
one can make those financialdecisions to even put them in a
rehab or the medical whathappens in that case, if there's
no POA, what happens?
If there's no POA and someonedoes not have authority over the
(05:53):
account, the family has to movefor a guardianship or a
conservatorship over that personand their finances, and that's
a very long and expensiveproposition.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
So hire an attorney, and then you have to go before a
judge.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
You have to submit it to the court, so it takes a
long time, whereas if you do alittle bit of advanced planning,
it's inexpensive for a power ofattorney, healthcare proxy and
will and you can get everythingyou need and everyone designated
that you need for asignificantly less amount of
(06:29):
expenditure.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
So, going back to the asset protection because we're
in Bergen County, there arepeople with a lot of assets and
correct me if I'm wrong but withMedicaid, Medicaid only pays
for your senior care.
Say, you're staying at Allegroor something like that.
It doesn't kick in until youhave no money left.
(06:52):
So basically, you could saveyour entire life.
You could have $2 million inyour retirement account and now
you have to spend $12,000 amonth and that's where all your
money's going.
So forget about leaving moneyfor your family.
You need that $12,000 a monthand that's where all your
money's going.
So forget about leaving moneyfor your family.
You need that $12,000 a monthto pay for your senior care and
the only one that's allexhausted.
(07:12):
Will Medicaid kick in?
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Well, in a sense it's correct because there are
things where they won'timpoverish the spouse.
The spouse will still get tolive in the house.
You know there's some deep inthe weeds things, but if you
want to plan for, you know,possibly becoming Medicaid
eligible, you need to startdoing it early in your 60s and
(07:38):
early 70s.
Not in my office when you're 90.
But I have people at 95 come inand want to do this and I'm
like we're probably not going tomake that.
Look back, you know it'ssomething in the 60s you really
need to think about.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
You know it's funny my parents are 90 and their will
hasn't been updated since the80s and I keep asking them to
update it because my my brother,is in there.
Well, my brother passed away 26years ago okay and I'm like,
yeah, we'll get, we'll get intoit, we're getting.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I'm like you're 90 years old, you know when are you
going to get to it yeah, theyshould get to it, because you
know what certain wills say if,even if a sibling passes away,
then it goes to their children,the grandchildren right right.
So it really depends what thewill says, and that's the other
thing.
They need to think about thewill, because if you don't have
one, it just passes by operationof law and testate, which is
(08:33):
not exactly how some people wanttheir assets to be, distributed
.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
And then you've got multiple kids, multiple kids.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Right, you've got grandkids or you know you want
someone to be the executor.
If you don't have a will, theneverybody else has to renounce.
That's on the same uh line.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
All the siblings have to choose who's going to be the
administrator right um or andwe know where that could go
sometimes, you know right thatends up in litigation sometimes.
Yeah, so when it comes to thingslike that, there's certain
kinds of trusts.
You know there's irrevocabletrust, revocable trust, family
(09:16):
trust.
So what do you recommend afamily do Say they have three
kids or four kids what do yourecommend they do in terms of
protecting their assets and dodo things like that?
Do you trust complex, complextrusts like that?
If it is complex, are they aform of asset protection?
And I would imagine they'realso a form of litigation
(09:39):
protection, because now you haveclear, designated people
involved in making decisions.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Right, so you can have.
So if you have just a revocabletrust, that only goes to avoid
probate, there is no assetprotection associated.
Okay, just keeps your assetsprivate, avoids probate.
But the irrevocable trust, youcan place an asset in that and
(10:06):
then there's an asset protectionto them.
A third party can't reach inand grab those assets because
they're no longer owned by you.
It's out of your authority butthe caveat is difficult to get
back in your authority.
Can't change that trust.
(10:26):
Can't change those beneficiaries, you need to be certainly sure
that this is what and how youwant your asset distributed as a
falling out between a parentand their child.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
There's never been an example of siblings having, you
know, issues with each other.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
So you have to be very certain that you're making
that tradeoff asset protectionfor giving up your rights to
change this trust.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Got it, got it.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
So if you want to change it I mean there's complex
ways of doing it, it costs alot and they don't always work.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Are there any other kind of trusts you can create
that would fall under assetprotection?
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Well, irrevocable is the large, you know, the
umbrella that they all fallunder.
Then we have dynasty truststhat pass assets among
generations.
That pass assets amonggenerations and they stay in the
trust and the trust justdisperses them to children,
(11:36):
grandchildren,great-grandchildren, as it goes
along.
Family trusts do the same thing, sometimes on a wider to
different siblings and then downthrough the generations, but
they're generally under theirrevocable trust umbrella.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Does a family trust, do any of these trusts protect
you from liabilities?
Say you get sued becausesomebody tripped in front of
your house.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
So if you create the trust, right, yeah, you've
placed the asset in the trust,so only the um assets in the
trust will be protected and thenif you have assets outside the
trust if they sue youindividually right they can
reach those, those assets.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
But if you put your home, if you put your home in
the trust, which is a bigdecision because, as you said,
you're giving somebody theirrevocable, the trust, which is
a big decision because, as yousaid, you're giving somebody the
irrevocable right to your home,but it is protected in case of
things like that.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
It is a big decision.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
And that's part of the five-year look-back.
So if it's under someone else'sownership, we'll say, then
that's not counted against you,I guess, for want of a better
word After the five-year rights.
After the five-year rent, afterthe five years, right yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
So the trustee, it's a trustee in the name of the
trust that is that owner at thattime.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Okay, Got it, Got it.
So I mean, yeah, there's somuch that goes into it, and I
think maybe one of the reasonswhy a lot of people put it off
like even the sandwichgeneration that you and I are
part of is because it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
It is a lot.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
And is there?
I mean, is it very expensive tohave a trust drawn up?
I mean, I guess it depends onthe complexity of it.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
It depends on the complexity.
The revocable trusts aregenerally not too expensive.
The irrevocable trust, itreally depends how many assets
are being transferred into it,whether the assets have to be
retitled, like a house, orwhether there's brokerage
accounts that are easy toretitle and you don't need to
(13:40):
record it you are going to haveif you have multiple trustees or
significant requirements foryour beneficiaries to receive
the money, like do they need tofinish college?
Do they need to have a job?
The more complex it gets, themore money it costs.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
So there's this movie on Netflix.
Don't ask me why I'm watchingit, because I'm certainly not
their key demographic, butwhat's the name of it?
It's a story about a woman whohas three kids.
One of them is a daughter, andthe woman knows she's dying of
cancer, I guess, and in the will.
She owns a company and she saysin the will that her daughter,
(14:24):
who is currently like the headof marketing, is no longer with
the company.
She's getting fired because hermother wants her to basically
fulfill this list that she wrotewhen she was 13 to go off and
live her life.
Her mother feels like she's notliving her best life, so as she
completes these tasks, there'sa DVD that her mom made of each
(14:46):
stage to talk to her daughterbeyond the grave, basically, but
she left her all these thingsthat she had to do in order to.
Once she completes these, thenshe will inherit the money that
was left for her.
So I guess that's a Hollywoodversion of it.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Yeah, I write incentive trust.
They're called that's the name.
And you incentivize the personto do all different things, and
then they receive the money.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
And it's the job of you, as the lawyer, as the
estate attorney, to make surethat they fulfill those.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Well, you know what?
We appoint a trustee.
Whoever they appoint as thetrustee, they're the one who
makes sure they fulfill thesethings before the money gets
dispersed.
But I draft it as an incentivetrust because people want to
give their children enough moneyto have a good life or do
something, but not too much sothey can't do.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
So they don't do nothing right like warren
buffett, I think he's right,right, so they incentivize them
to do things right.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Don't do nothing right like warren buffett, I
think he's right, right, so theyincentivize them to do things
right right, because isn't therelike a statistic like
generational wealth it's, youknow, by the third generation
they've basically squandered itsquandered it all yeah yeah,
yeah so well, there's a sayingthat tough times uh make.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Uh, how does it go?
Tough people and tough peoplemake good times and it go Tough
people.
Tough people and tough peoplemake good times and good times
make soft people and soft peoplemake tough times.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
So what is it so?
Obviously you've been doingthis a while and I'd imagine
there's some cases are verystandard and others, as we're
talking about, are more complex.
Is there any example of aclient that you've had, without
naming names, that just chumpsout at you, of a special
(16:36):
instance or experience?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
I did have a pretty wealthy client who wanted his
children to receive money butwork and work towards things
they wanted.
So we created a trust wherethey only got paid their
distribution the amount thatmatched their W-2 for each year.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
So their W-2 or their schedule say you know we work
with them, so it incentivizedthem to work.
So that they would get doublethe amount, but if they didn't
work the next year, they didn'tget anything wow so that was an
interesting way to do it yeah,yeah because it was a
significant, a significant uhestate and trust yeah and so so
(17:26):
it grew.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
You give me some ideas.
Not that I have a significantestate, but hey, you know, and
I'd imagine, if you do that, ifyou have multiple children and
you do that for each of them,some of them fulfill it and some
of them don't.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Some of them don't.
Sometimes you know we have to.
You know a trust is a good idea, because sometimes you have
people get a whole lot of moneyall at one shot and then they
either OD on drugs so it keepsthat from happening because you
hold the reins of the money orthey just squandered on gambling
(18:02):
or expensive.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
So so now what I, you know, I'm going to dig into
like headlines or expensive.
I'm going to dig into headlines.
I guess that you read in thenews the guy's married second,
third time.
He's got a ton of money.
His third wife, who's like 30years younger than him, who is
(18:26):
as old or as young as the kids,is named in the will, right?
I mean, I guess there's nothingthe kids can do, right?
I mean, if she's, if the guy'sof sound mind and body, If he's
of sound mind and body.
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
There's nothing they can do about the will.
But they can speak with theirfather and say you know, there
is a bank account or there's abrokerage account or the IRA.
Maybe we should be thebeneficiaries on it, because
then that doesn't pass throughthe well.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
But I do have that a lot.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, and I'd also.
I've heard stories of how,because maybe the assets weren't
protected, the third wifedoesn't now.
Her husband needs senior care,but she doesn't want to squander
her inheritance on his care.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
So in.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
New Jersey we don't have a familial statue.
Other states do.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (19:17):
They say children and spouses have to shoulder the
burden of the care of the person.
But New Jersey doesn't havethat.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
So what does that mean?
Speaker 3 (19:29):
they can just so that that means if that woman has,
uh, you know, just her own money.
She doesn't she, she would haveto pay for his medical bills.
But she doesn't necessarilyhave to pay, you know, for the
nicest nursing facility or evenwhere you know she could put
them into a state run nursinghome instead of uh she can move
(19:52):
them out of state put them in acheap yeah.
Cause it's cheaper out of statemostly.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah.
So, yeah, I mean there's somany.
I mean there's so manyintricacies and different
scenarios that go into this.
I could see why you were drawnto it and you know, I think in
the most, in most of your cases,you're helping people and they
walk away, you know, feelingbetter and fulfilled, and
(20:19):
obviously there's some caseswhere there's some litigation
involved.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
And for those cases we have a whole third floor full
of litigators and for thosecases we have a whole third
floor full of litigators oh okay.
The real contest and the trustcontest and the wipe that you
know, the third wipe thatbreezed in at the last minute
and took all the money.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Right, right, yeah, interesting, so.
So let's get back to the firmfor a minute.
So, beatty Padovano, how longhas the firm been around?
Speaker 3 (20:47):
About 55 years at this point Wow 55 years Okay.
Yeah, so the 55 years they do asignificant amount of land use
and development in Montvale andBergen County, and then we have
a corporate law and commercialleasing department and an entire
(21:07):
litigation floor for all typesof litigation.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Got it, got it OK, and and so I mentioned that
you're down the road fromHarrington Park, you're in
Haworth, new Jersey, so you knowyour commute to Montfail isn't
so bad.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
No, not too bad.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Not too bad.
So is there anything we didn'ttalk about?
When it comes to elder care,elder law, sorry estate planning
, is there anything like anyadvice that we didn't talk about
?
Because I think it's reallyimportant and when I talk to
people like you, I usually pickup the phone and call my parents
and say you know, you reallygot to do this, like who's who's
(21:47):
the power of attorney.
And there's three sisters andmyself.
I live in New Jersey, I have asister in Long Island, where we
grew up, and I have a sister inMyrtle beach and the sister in
Florida where my parents live.
So it could be a huge mess.
So they own a house.
They don't own a lot, but uh,you know, every time, like you
(22:07):
know, when we're done here, I'msure I'm calling them up and
saying, hey, when are we goingto do this?
Speaker 3 (22:11):
I'll pay for the, the attorney, to get your will
updated, you know I think thatif they, the first question is
do you have a power of attorney?
Because if one of them goesinto the hospital and then no
one can you know arrange theircare and pay for, pay for, pay
their taxes, pay theirhomeowner's insurance, then it's
(22:33):
going to come out of everyindividual's personal pockets,
it's going to come out of allthe siblings' pockets.
So that's number one.
Number two if they live inFlorida, they need to have a
Florida attorney, do it?
Speaker 2 (22:50):
They may want to do a trust because probate is
different in each state, so canyou just educate what is probate
.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
So probate is when we take the will to the court and
they review the will and thedeath certificate and the
petition and then I'll give youa formal order appointing
someone the executor Okay.
And then the executor can reachall the banks, get all the
assets, pay all the taxes Okay.
(23:16):
But in Florida most people havetrust because probate is a
really long process and in NewYork it's a really long process.
So you have a trust New Jerseyvery quick.
So wills work out just as wellas a revocable trust.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Got it.
Now what if you had your willdrawn up 30 years ago and you
can't find it?
Is that a problem?
You actually can't find thepaperwork.
It's filed in the courts.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
No, it's not filed in the courts.
So, usually people don't filean original will with any
repository and you need theoriginal one to go to probate,
Otherwise you have to file acomplaint with a copy of it.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
So you want to have the original, you want the
original death certificate, theoriginal will.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I don't know where my will is.
I need to go find it.
You need to find it.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
I get that it's like I don't know where it is.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
I'm like then, and I know there's a little cottage
industry of businesses, ofpeople that will go help you do
that.
They'll look, they'll help youfind all your.
You know documents like that,your will and other things, so
you know everything's in order.
It's kind of like a homeorganizer, except they organize
your your, your documents, rightyeah, so you can see there's a
(24:34):
need for it, you know, as longas you trust them.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
You need the original yeah, All right and the
original power of attorney.
You want to make sure you havethat too, because a lot of banks
aren't going to take a copy.
So that's important to have.
Yeah, so you want to make sureall that kind of thing is in
order.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
And Barbara, do you do any speaking engagements to
educate the communities likethis?
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Sometimes I speak to the seniors groups, sometimes I
hold them at the library, andthat's about it.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Well, you and I should talk offline, because I
have some ideas.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
So, yeah.
So yeah, I used to do a podcast15-minute coffee break estates.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Nice.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Yeah, because it was during COVID and everyone had
questions and everybody neededhelp ASAP.
So it was a way to just getsome information quickly out
there.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Yeah, that's good, that's smart.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Yeah, so it was a practical way, bring that back
maybe.
Because I get calls all thetime and people they don't know
where the power of attorney is.
They don't know where the willis.
They can't get in touch withthe banks and banks will not
talk to you unless you have thaton file.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
So making notes right now I gotta go find my will.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
So yeah, go find it.
That's number one.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Hopefully it's in the safe, but yeah, and your
parents.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
You make sure they have one down in Florida.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yeah, well, like I said, they haven't updated it
since the 80s.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
And it needs to be properly witnessed and notarized
for the state they're in.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Because it's different.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Well, we could go on and on about this and we'll have
a second episode.
Yeah, barbara Martin, thank youvery much for joining us today.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah, yeah, this is great and we're just gonna have
chuck close this out and you andI'll be right back.
Thank you for listening to thegood neighbor podcast.
To nominate your favorite localbusinesses to be featured on
the show, go to gnpbergencom.
That's gnpbergencom, or call201-298-8325.
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