February 22, 2024 • 40 mins
Welcome to From Scotland with Wisdom, where we embark on a captivating journey with the insightful Joy Clarkson, from the enchanting landscapes of Scotland. In this episode, we delve into her latest book, "You Are a Tree" as Joy generously shares her profound perspectives on metaphors and the art of nurturing life, thought, and prayer. Joy is an author and host of the popular podcast, Speaking with Joy. Joy completed her PhD in theology at the University of St Andrews, where she researched how art can be a resource of hope and consolation. I hope you will join us today as she shares her insight.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Gracefield Grit.
I'm your host, lana Stinner,and we are chatting all about
growing your faith, family andthe backyard farm.
Here at the GracefieldHomestead, we are having honest,
hard and authenticconversations with some amazing
guests about getting back to thebasics and what's important in
life.
We are not for everyone and wedon't clean up our conversations
(00:29):
, so you will get the uneditedchat Each episode.
You can expect practical tipsand encouragement.
I am so honored to have youjoin us today, so grab a cup of
coffee and let's do this thing.
Hey friends, welcome back tothe podcast.
Today we are chatting with JoyClarkson.
She is an author and host ofthe popular podcast.
(00:51):
Speaking with Joy, she is thebooks editor for Plough
Quarterly and a researchassociate in theology and
literature at King's CollegeLondon.
Joy completed her PhD intheology at the University of St
Andrews, where she researchedhow art can be a resource of
hope.
Joy loves daffodils,birdwatching and a well-brewed
(01:14):
cup of tea, just like we do.
Welcome, joy.
I'm so glad to have you join uson the podcast today.
I'm so excited to be here.
I would love for our friendshere online to get to know you a
little bit better.
Do you mind sharing a littlebit about your life growing up,
what it is that drew you in tobe a writer, a poet and a deep
(01:35):
thinker.
I love your approach.
I've looked through your bookand read it and I just love your
approach to life and I want ourfriends here to know a little
bit more about you before wedive in.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
That's a great question.
I think a lot of it has to boildown to my family and the world
that I grew up in.
Both of my parents are authors.
I think in some sense I had theidea that you could be an
author.
That was the thing that youcould too.
My mom will always joke thatsome families they're all
farmers or they're all doctorsand that's the family trade.
(02:07):
In a way, that was our familytrade.
I think it wasn't just that, itwas also that I grew up in a
very literary, verbal household.
I haven't actually talked aboutthis in any other podcast.
I've been on.
So there you go.
I was homeschooled and myparents took a whole book
(02:27):
Charlotte Mason so the main waythat I was educated was through
reading a ton of books and thentalking about them.
When I think about the coursethat my life has taken on some
level even now as I'm teachingmaster students, I am still
reading a bunch of books andtalking about them I was drawn
to the life of words and theways in which it feels important
(02:53):
, I think, for human beings tobe able to talk about things
that are important to us, and totalk about them clearly and
well.
Sometimes the best way to talkabout things clearly and well is
through stories.
Sometimes we can't actually getat things through literal
language, and that's how I endedup studying the arts and
(03:15):
theology, because I thought,well, the most important thing
to talk about is God.
To me, that felt like the mostimportant thing, but I always
found for me that it was easieror more possible to talk and
think about deep and mysteriousthings when I was talking and
thinking about it through imagesand stories and music.
That felt like that kind ofencompassed some of the mystery.
(03:36):
So, yeah, so I think that'spainting with broad brushstrokes
part of what kind of led me towhere I am and led me to love
doing what I do.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I love that I love that and that you're
homeschooled.
I think I missed that.
I didn't realize that you werehomeschooled, and so we have a
lot of homeschoolers here in ourlistening base and I would love
for you to you know.
Are you a fan of homeschooling,being that you were brought up
in that, or do you?
You know?
What was your experience withthat?
Did you enjoy that?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I did.
Yeah, it's funny, it's notsomething I have a reason really
to talk about.
A lot in my normal life, youknow, people don't tend to ask
you when you're their instructorin college.
Were you homeschooled, right?
Right, but no, I thinkhomeschooling was really good
for me.
I think something that itallowed was for my parents to
kind of allow us to excel inwhat we excelled in and meet us
(04:36):
where we were with the thingsthat we struggled with, and I
think that it also sometimes forworse, but mostly for better
gave me almost like a kind of.
I had a lot of formative yearswhere I wasn't as formed by kind
of peer pressure or thinkingabout how the people thought
about me, and I actually thinkthere is some benefit in life to
(04:57):
caring people think about you.
You do need that.
As you know, we live in asociety, as they say.
But I also think that thatearly formation of kind of
allowing a lot of those seeds ofcreativity to just blossom
without self-consciousness wasreally helpful for me.
And you know, I think everychild, every family is different
(05:21):
, but that it was, and I did amix of things, you know, when I
was in high school I did someschool, but it was a really good
experience for me and I thinkit was really formative in ways
that I don't usually talk about.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
I love that and I totally agree with the
creativity piece.
I think that is one of the hugebenefits that we don't often
talk about that with the peoplethat I know that, schooled at
home, their creativity leveljust seemed so.
Maybe that's something you know.
I've never really thought aboutit, but I wonder if our
(05:58):
standard public school system isjust stifling a little bit to
that.
And then you throw in a artclass here there, a music class
here and there in high school,but it doesn't just truly get at
your soul in your heart.
So that's interesting I lovethat fact about you.
Okay, so totally off topic, butyou had, before we started
recording and we are chatting,you had mentioned you were in,
(06:19):
you lived in Scotland and thatyou work in London.
So I knew the London piece wasnot informed about the Scotland
piece.
So I am fascinated.
I've been there long, long ago.
So tell us just a day in yourlife, from when you wake up,
what is?
What is a day like?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
there.
So the background to why I livein Scotland is that I didn't.
I did my PhD at St AndrewsUniversity or University of St
Andrews, which one goes first,and so I've ended up back here,
even though I work in London.
So my typical day depends onwhether it's a London day or a
Scotland day, but in Scotland,so I work in London when I'm
(07:00):
teaching.
I'm down there once a week andthat is.
You know, that's a busy day.
That's getting up and hoppingon the tube and getting a coffee
before I go to teach studentsand then meeting with students,
and then you know the kind ofcity life which I really enjoy,
but I also love that.
Then my main kind of life, I goback to my little fishing
village and an average day isbecause my office is in London.
(07:26):
I do a lot of work from home,so I wake up and I'm a real
breakfast girl.
I think that it's important toeat breakfast.
So, I eat my breakfast and Iusually try to do work at a
coffee shop in the morning.
There's not many options, butI'm very faithful to the coffee
shop that I do have.
Oh, I love it and I do somework.
I always try to do writing inthe morning and then have lunch
(07:48):
with my loved one, and then I dowork in the afternoon.
That sounds very boring, butthen I'll add in a walk.
Right now it's too cold to walkin Scotland.
It's just kind of miserable.
Usually I would take a walkWe'd live not too far from sea
and then maybe go to a pub withsome friends after dinner, which
is one of the great benefits ofthe UK that you know, the pubs
(08:10):
are Not a bar it feels veryfamilial.
You'll see kids and dogs andstuff.
That's the thing I love.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
It sounds dreamy.
It sounds dreamy.
That is on my recent bucketlist to make it back there, so
thank you for sharing that withus.
Okay, so you often share aboutyour love for the outdoors,
flowers and birds.
We are on the tipping point ofspring here in the Midwest in
the United States and just thisvery weekend I noticed our
(08:38):
Daffodil stems are finallypopping up and there are some
buds on our trees.
You write about watching thecherry tree outside your bedroom
window.
Share a little bit about thatand what it taught you.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
So that section in my book you Are a Tree was about
after I had just finished mystudies and I was really kind of
burned out and exhausted and Imoved from Scotland and I was
living in England and I had thischerry tree that was outside my
window and I moved there inwinter and it was totally kind
of barren and stripped down andover the course of the year that
(09:12):
I lived in that one house Iwatched it go from that kind of
barren winter tree to suddenlygetting the buds and then
bursting into these.
Like I always say this, theygenuinely were like glow in the
dark, like at night.
I felt like I could see themglowing in the dark beautiful,
you know papery petals in thespringtime and then just being
(09:33):
absolutely bursting with foliagein the summer and then kind of
that gentle transition back tothe bareness in the winter.
And as I watched that tree Iwatched something go through
these really radical changes,you know, four times in one year
.
But it made me think about howeach one of those stages, each
one of those seasons, was a partof the next, that you couldn't
(09:57):
have the springtime if youdidn't have the winter, you
couldn't have the summer if youdidn't let the petals fall off
in the spring and that each ofthem was meaningful and
important.
And I thought about myself and Ithought maybe I actually am
more like a cherry tree.
You know, there will be seasonsand there have been seasons in
my life where I just felt kindof barren and like I didn't have
(10:19):
any leaves or pretty petals andthen it didn't seem like
anything was happening.
And but understanding those inthe context of the cherry tree,
thinking about my seasons aregonna be different.
I'm gonna be capable ofdifferent things in different
seasons.
Some seasons will feel fruitfuland abundant and some will feel
exhausting.
Some will feel morecontemplative and some will feel
(10:40):
more active and kind ofembracing that lesson from the
cherry tree to not feel guiltyabout the season that I'm in.
If I'm in winter, nothing that Ido can make it be spring.
I just have to wait and letthose roots grow deep.
And actually for cherry trees,I've been told that it's
actually the really cold winteris important for the fruit in
(11:01):
the summer.
So kind of embracing that maybethere's actually something
about this winter that will helpme bear fruit in the future,
you know.
Or if I'm in a busy summerseason where I need to start to
harvest and I feel like I'm notthinking deep thoughts or
praying enough.
Going you know what, maybethat's just the season that I'm
in, and so watching the cherrytree kind of invited me to pay
(11:22):
more attention to my own lifeand to think about what season I
was in and to act accordinglyand not live under the kind of
guilty exhaustion of thinkingthat I needed to be the same all
the time.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
That's so good and so true about how, in winter, you
know we're just coming out ofwinter and there's so much going
on.
You know behind the scenes arein.
You know we have a bunch ofraised beds under the ground,
that's going on and it justlooks barren and cold and
desolate, but there's a lot ofactivity going on during that
(11:59):
timeframe.
So I thank you for sharing that, because that's such a powerful
word picture to me.
So tell us a little bit moreabout your faith journey.
Was there any pivotal momentsin your life that you feel like
led you to hear or that you hada huge aha moment?
(12:20):
Of course, you know our entirefaith journey is a big aha
moment.
Every day, every minute.
It feels like you know, youthink at my age you think, okay,
I've read the Bible through youso many times, I know it all,
whatever, and it's likeliterally every day is an aha
moment.
But is there something that waspivotal you know during your
(12:41):
lifetime that you can look backon and say that that led you to
where you're at?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
That's a good question.
So there are.
There are there's actually kindof two moments that came to my
mind and I'll try to tell youabout both briefly, and I
actually have written about bothof them in one of my other
books.
But I, you know, as I shared, Iwas raised in a really loving
family where faith was veryexciting and good and I had a
(13:08):
lot of scripture read to me as akid, and.
But something I really struggledwith through my kind of late
teens and early 20s, and that Istill struggle with from time to
time, is I just kind of wouldhave this kind of existential
doubt that I could trust thatChristianity was true, but and
that's that's almost a not quiteincorrect, that's not quite a
(13:31):
correct way to say it, but Iwould just have this sense that
I deeply wanted it to be true.
But I had all these questionsand doubts and I just wasn't
sure if I kind of generatebelief in myself, and so I had,
I really struggled with that.
And I struggled with it becauseI often felt like that was
narrated by people around me aslike a desire to rebel or
something, and for me it reallywasn't.
(13:52):
It was I deeply wanted tobelieve.
But I found it really difficultto do so and I had this one
kind of miraculous moment whereI had been really struggling
with that and it had been kindof brought on because someone,
someone who was beloved assomebody that I loved that's a
convoluted way of saying that Ihad died and it felt just kind
(14:15):
of earth-shattering anddifficult and sad and it's I had
been feeling pretty good in myfaith and it just kind of spun
me out into a place that I kindof couldn't hold and didn't feel
like I was capable of holdingonto my faith.
And I happened to be going on aweekend trip this is actually in
Scotland with a friend and andI was like trying not to tell
(14:35):
her all my deep existentialdoubts that I was having as you
know, we all occasionally willdo and but we were staying in
this tower.
This sounds like I'm making itup, but her family had been
Scottish back like backgenerations, and her mom had
found that they had like anancestral tower, and by that I
mean like it's not like a castle, it's like literally like a
tall tower and there's just likefour, four stories and they're
(14:58):
all one room.
And they had these in back inthe day because the lower, like
the lowlands of Scotland, werereally dangerous because they
were always people were fighting, so they would have a tower for
someone to like watch and seeif the surrounding clans were,
you know, moving for attack.
So apparently this has beentraded to an Airbnb and so we
were staying there and I kind ofmanaged to hold it together.
(15:21):
We had a nice day and then I,but I couldn't sleep, so I went
down and I made myself a cup oftea and I was kind of journaling
about you know, kind of youknow existential like is this,
it, like it, can I?
You know, is that?
Do I have a faith anymore?
And my computer was playingSpotify.
(15:41):
You know Spotify will like justchoose something for your
algorithm and it started playingthis beautiful song.
If you've never heard it, lookit up.
Called you've heard the songJesus blood never failed me yet.
Have you heard that song?
I think so.
I think so.
Okay, so it has a reallyinteresting story, which is that
we don't actually know where itcame from.
It's not actually him, but inthis documentary on sorry, I'm
(16:02):
getting you.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
But it sounds like.
It sounds like a him, right?
Is it the okay?
Yes, yeah, yes.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
But it's.
They found this in thisdocumentary on homelessness in
London.
This guy found this, this man,this homeless man who was
singing it to himself over andover again.
And then this composer madethis beautiful kind of
orchestral arrangement aroundthis very simple song, and so,
apparently, spotify thought thatthat was something that I would
want to hear, and so it startedplaying this and it was
(16:29):
beautiful, and it was over andover again, and I was like, of
all the songs you know, it wouldbring me this that Jesus blood
never failed me yet.
And then, out of nowhere, abutterfly I'm not kidding showed
up in this tower, this tower inthe third story.
Like where did a butterfly comefrom?
And it was this funny momentbecause I it just felt like God
(16:53):
had met me.
And then he said you know you,you actually don't have to
generate the faith withinyourself.
I am with you.
If you let go, I will still bethere, and that's it was also
kind of interesting momentbecause it didn't prove anything
.
It didn't like, you know, I'msure somehow I could imagine a
circumstance in which abutterfly could end up in a
(17:14):
third story of a tower and andyou know, spotify would choose a
song, but to me it met me inthat moment and kind of reminded
me of the sense that I don'thave to carry my own faith.
So I think that's somethingthat's very important to me is
is the sense that I I try not tofocus so much on my own belief
(17:34):
in God, but the sense that Godis there to be believed in,
whether I believe him or not,and he actually, in the words of
Wendell Berry, he holds me evenwhen I don't want him.
Oh, that's powerful.
You got, I've got goosebumps.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
That's good, that is so good.
Oh, wow, and I have thatpicture in my head.
Just you know what a beautifulscene that he showed up there
for you.
Love that, I love that.
Okay, so in your latest book,titled you are a tree and other
metaphors to nourish your life,thought and prayer, your chapter
one starts with Jeremiah 17.8,which is one of my favorite
books.
Your chapter one starts withJeremiah 17.8, which is one of
(18:12):
my absolute favorite passages inscripture.
I'll go ahead and read it justso our listeners remember which
one it is.
They will be like a treeplanted by the water that sends
out its roots by the stream.
It does not fear when heatcomes, its leaves are always
green, it has no worries in ayear of drought and never fails
to bear fruit.
(18:32):
I love that.
So what is the practicalmessage and takeaway from your
writings as you begin your book?
What do you want our listenersto think about?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
So one of the things I want to think about I think we
already started to get at thiswhen I was talking about my
cherry tree but so I want peopleto think about the metaphors
they use to describe their lifeand I know that sounds very like
I don't use metaphors.
You know why are metaphorsimportant to me?
But something that I think theyactually are very important.
So you have people like there'sa book called Metaphors we Live
(19:06):
by.
We're talking about the factthat all of our language is
metaphorical and that thelanguage that we use shapes kind
of our expectations and thenhow we act.
So an example of this I talkabout in the book it's like if
you always use metaphors ofsickness for love which sounds
funny, right, you think we don'tuse sickness for love, but you
(19:27):
do.
You talk about being crazy inlove, you talk about being
lovesick.
If that is your main way oftalking about love, then love is
.
That means that you expect thatlove is something that happens
to you.
It kind of takes you over andtakes you out of your normal
state.
It's something you can catch,feelings, and then it's gone
right, just like a diseasepasses.
(19:47):
And that metaphor shapes how wethink about how we engage with
love, whereas if you replace itwith something different like
love is a home you know, we talkabout letting someone in,
feeling at home, with someonebelonging then that metaphor is
more capacious because you canthink about a home is something
that is safe, so you don't letdangerous things into it.
(20:10):
It's a place that youexperience belonging, it's a
place that you accept thelimitations of, but then you can
make it interesting andrelevant to your own personality
.
So that's an example of thefact that we do use metaphors
all the time, and the metaphorsthat we use shape how we kind of
act in life.
(20:30):
And so with the URA Tree, thatparticular metaphor and the
metaphor for the whole book,part of what I wanted to respond
to and I think this is apractical thing, even if it
feels a little bit out there ishow often we talk about our
lives in terms of kind ofmachines.
So we talk about recharging, wetalk about updating each other
(20:52):
like we're software, we talkabout processing something.
You know, when somethingdifficult happens, it's really
processing that.
And the problem to me with allthese metaphors they do describe
something right and we justtalk that way naturally all the
time.
And it makes sense that we do,because metaphors are using
physical, material things todescribe kind of immaterial
(21:13):
things, right, and we usemachine metaphors because we see
machines all the time.
We are talking through machine,you know.
But the problem with that isthat if you think about
metaphors as shaping ourexpectations, if I talk about
myself like a machine, if I talkabout processing, then what I
(21:33):
expect is that my emotions willact like a computer processing
something, right?
So when a computer processessomething, when it processes
podcasts, and you update it, ittakes some time and then it's
done, you update it.
The problem is that's notusually how our emotions work,
right, I'll have somethingdifficult happen to me.
I'll think I'm over it and twomonths later I'll be mad or sad
(21:54):
or whatever again.
And if I have that kind ofmachine metaphor in my mind,
I'll feel frustrated and I'llthink why is this still
happening, why is this happeningto me again?
And I'll feel guilty and I'llfeel shame and I'll get stuck in
that cycle because I'mexpecting myself to act like a
machine.
But I'm not a machine.
And that also goes, I think,with productivity.
You know, when you beatyourself up because my computer
(22:17):
does act the same way every day,and I want it to act the same
way every day, I want it to runthe same speed, I want it to be
able to do the same things.
But we can't right.
I today I found myself kind ofexhausted because yesterday was
my launch day.
I had a lot of adrenaline goingall day, so most of what I
managed to do today was likeanswer emails and have this
conversation with you, and if Iwere to think about myself like
(22:39):
a machine, I would go.
The computer that is Joy MarieClarkson, is malfunctioning.
She is not acting, she's notproducing the same amount of
things.
But that's not how our bodieswork.
We are more like the cherrytree and we actually we exist
better, we're more productive,we're more fruitful, we're
happier when we accept kind ofwhat we are like.
(23:01):
And so I think watching out forthose metaphors that we use and
replacing them sometimes withmore life-giving metaphors helps
us do that.
So that's a very long way tosay.
I think that metaphors arepractical.
Thinking about them shapes howwe live and the expectations
that we have of ourselves, andso I want the book to kind of
help people be aware of themetaphors they're using and then
(23:22):
give them other metaphors thatmight be more nourishing or
life-giving or organic asopposed to mechanistic.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
And that's so good, and we oh, as you gave the
example of I need to recharge orI need to.
You know we had recently we hadthe shooting here in Kansas
City and I said several timesit's days later I'm still
processing it, it doesn't seemreal, and so we say those things
on how we are using ouremotions, and there there's
(23:53):
definitely better ways to dothat.
So I've caught myself doingthat a lot in the last couple of
weeks.
So you've also written aboutbeing a potted plant.
So you had said that you hadmoved a lot as a child and then
even as an adult, you had movedonce a year for seven years and
you never felt like you put downtrue roots.
(24:14):
So do you still feel likeyou're a potted plant?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
In some ways yes and in some ways no.
So I think that part of why Iwrote that section of the book
was that having that kind ofmetaphor come to me.
And the context of that was Iwas sitting in my old flat where
I finished my studies and I wassitting, all my stuff was all
ramble-shamble inside and I waslooking at the little garden
(24:42):
that it shared with the lettingagency below and I had all these
beautiful trees and they'd beenthere for a long time before I
came there and they'll probablybe there a long time after.
And then I was thinking on mylittle potted plant inside that
I kind of kept alive while I wasfinishing my studies and I was
trying to decide what to do withit, whether I should give it to
somebody else, and but it waskind of getting a little stringy
(25:03):
.
So I thought that might bealmost rude and I thought I'm a
potted plant.
I am not like these beautifulrooted trees.
I am always going from one placeto another and, like my little
plant inside, I've grown toomuch to fit in my pot and where
can I belong, and I thinkactually just being able to put
that into words was reallyhelpful for me Sometimes there's
(25:27):
just relief in being able todescribe an experience that
you're having, but I think italso helped me to think about
okay, well, if I am too big formy pot, then what do I need?
How can I grow, how can I deepen?
And I would say that in thebasically three years since I
had that experience and wrotethose words, there are many ways
(25:47):
in my life where maybe Ihaven't rooted to one place I
would love to eventually.
But there are places, there areways in my life in which I am
more rooted in community, inrelationships and in my faith
that I feel like I have put downsome roots, even if they're not
in community.
But part of that was puttingthat finger, my finger, on the
(26:09):
fact that, okay, if I'm going tocontinue to grow, I need to not
be a pot of plants anymore.
And so I think that has beenkind of a characteristic of the
last few years for me is kind ofnarrowing my life and going.
I'm going to choose, I'm goingto narrow my options and find
places to plant relationally,spiritually and emotionally.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
That's so good and it's so hard in life when we're
being transplanted.
I mean, we're here, we're rightin the middle of all of that,
getting ready to go into spring,and I, just as you're chatting,
I'm just I'm thinking about ourblueberries and we are here at
(26:51):
the Gracefield Homestead.
We're kind of we focus in on afew plants and we do them really
well and we grow a lot of themand I'm not into a bunch of
different things, but we try alot and then if it works and we
can go on and blueberries areone of the things we have.
Just it's been an epic failover here.
To be honest with you, everyyear I try to plant blueberries
(27:13):
and I don't know if it's ourregion or my soil or what I'm
doing wrong, but we've been busywith other things and so I
haven't spent the research timeto like what am I doing.
I just throw something in theground or whatever, and I buy a
potted plant already from thenursery and put it in the ground
and like, literally three timesin, three times in the last
three years, we've lost them andso we've started digging in.
(27:36):
I'm like, okay, this is ouryear to be very successful at
this one plant.
We mastered the potatoes, wemastered the peppers, we
mastered the tomatoes all thesethings, we've mastered this.
I'm going to conquerblueberries, and so the year of
the blueberry, the year of theblueberry and so interesting.
As you're chatting, we've beenwatching a lot of YouTube videos
(27:57):
and like, what have we donewrong?
What do we need to change thisyear?
But one of them showed this guytaking the big pot out and he
literally cut up with a chainsawup the middle in a cross on
both sides, like it almost wentall the way through the plant.
And I was just like horrifiedwatching this video, like you're
(28:18):
going to cut the whole plantand I, you know, we've always
broken the roots apart and youknow it's so it just is not what
you think you need to do whenyou have to break up that bunch
of roots, but it's so painful todo that.
But and then he's flashforwarding and showing these,
you know, beautiful, abundantplants, after this huge, painful
(28:40):
you know like we are used tothat with the pruning on, you
know, on the tops of the treesand things.
But he's doing this at the rootlevel and I was like, wow,
that's such a beautiful pictureand you're talking about.
It's not always easy when we're, you know, trying to transplant
and put those roots down.
It can be so painful.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
So yeah, well, that's something.
I love hearing that and it'ssomething I wrote a little bit
about the book.
But I love Wendell Berry as anovelist.
You know, great inspirer ofmany people to go and have a
piece of land.
But I used to always think buthe has an ancestral farm, like I
have to pick somewhere.
I'm the blueberry plant thathas to pick somewhere and rip up
(29:20):
my roots.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
And and I think that that's such a reminder that I
think that being rootedsomewhere is not really easy,
you know it's.
It's especially if you've had along nomadic life, and I think
that to some degree most peoplein the modern world have had a
pretty nomadic life.
It's, it is just kind of theconditions of the world that
we're in and I think I am reallygrateful for the some of the
(29:47):
rootedness I do have in my lifenow.
But it can feel violent, likewhen you, when you, when you
choose somewhere or you choosesomeone, or you choose some
church, where you choose one job, there's something, there's
something very scary about thatright, because it's it's going
I'm choosing this place and notanother, this person and not
another, and it can do a lot ofviolence to how you think about
(30:07):
who you are and some of yourexpectations of life.
But but that there's such graceand growth in in that
experience which can feel, couldfeel very uprooting.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Even as you are being rooted, and that's that's that.
Yeah, I wrote a little bitabout that kind of experience
and one of the other chapters Italked about I think the chapter
is entitled creativity as birth, but it's also kind of about
vocation, the things you'recalled to in life.
You know, whether that meansthe job that you're called to or
which I don't think anyone'sreally called to a job, but the
(30:46):
sense of kind of what you'recalled to in life, or marriage
and things like that, that allof those things kind of involve
something like birth right, thatyou kind of you go from one
state to another, you becomesomething new, and that that is
that birth is always riskybusiness and planting.
It's painful, yes, it is painful, and planting, planting potted
(31:06):
plants is always risky business,but but I think and I think
this is kind of a part of what Iwould diagnose as some of the
problems of our culture it isrisky business, it is painful,
but you can only grow so much ina pot and at some point you
will begin to not flourish, andso so I'm thankful for the, the
(31:28):
terror and the goodness ofstarting to put down roots in
life.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
That's so good.
So, good, you started chaptersix of your new book with
another one of my favoritepassages in scripture, psalm 55,
22, and it is.
I'll read it here give yourburdens to the Lord and he will
take care of you.
He will not permit the godly toslip and fall.
And you write about burdens ofgrief, depression, sadness,
(31:57):
disappointment and shame.
Share a little bit more aboutthis.
And what would you say to alistener that is beyond burdens
and just can't see the lightright now?
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Well, I think the first thing I would just say
before I ramble is that you arenot alone.
Other people have felt this way.
God is with you, you areremembered, you are held, you
are loved and Okay, talk, and totry not to feel guilty for
feeling where you are, becauseit will only add more burdens to
you.
So in that chapter I wroteabout how so many of the words
(32:37):
that we use for kind of burdensor sadness or depression have to
do with weight, right, so wetalk about I feel burdened.
Or we talk about feelingheavy-hearted, right, like
that's like a weight in yourheart.
Or even the word depressionimplies pushing something down,
(32:58):
right, putting weight onsomething so that it goes
further down.
And in the opposite of that'strue too, like when we talk
about happy personally, saythey're light-hearted, or you
know, humor brings levity.
So that sense of weightinessand in the chapter I talk about
the difference between heavinessand a burden, and that may seem
kind of pedantic, but ifsadness is heavy, that's what
(33:22):
kind of depression feels like tome, right, it's like carrying
around an extra weight with you,no matter what you're doing, so
that doing normal tasks andbeing a normal person is more
exhausting.
But for me sometimes this mayseem silly, but visualizing my
sadness or my struggles whenI've been in that place, not as
(33:42):
heaviness but as a burden, likea literal burden, like a little
backpack of all of my sadnessthat I have to carry around,
kind of weirdly, helps mestrategize how to be and how to
exist with sadness.
Because, for one thing, you canthink, okay, well, if my
sadness is a burden, if it's alittle backpack full of weight,
(34:04):
is there some of this weightthat I can get rid of?
Right, some things in life wejust we are going to carry
burdens, right, if we lovepeople, if we have lived in this
world full of chaos anddestruction, we will carry
burdens in our life and some ofthose things we can't put down,
but some of them we can.
So if you're carrying a lot ofshame that is not your shame to
(34:25):
carry, then talk with somebody,find a way to kind of take that
out of your burden.
Right, you will have to carryburdens.
You don't have to carry allburdens.
It also helps me think aboutokay, well, if my burdens are a
burden of their backpack, then Ican set them down sometimes,
right, I think if anyone's beensad.
Sometimes you can have a daywhere you just almost forgot
(34:48):
that you were sad.
You know and maybe that's assimple as watching a TV show you
like, or there's a particularperson that brings you happiness
Find a way to set down yourburden every once in a while and
I also I was thinking aboutthis recently.
How many of the words we useit's like we say that crying
brings a release.
That's like putting down yourburden right, to release.
(35:09):
It's just for a little while,to set down your burden.
But the other thing aboutburdens is that we can carry
them with other people.
So I talk in that chapter aboutGalatians.
But it talks about.
It says bear each other'sburdens and so fulfill the law
of Christ.
Right, and I think it's funny.
It's kind of a debated passageamong scholars.
(35:29):
Scholars can debate anything,because Paul uses this phrase
once that he never seems to useit again the fulfill the law of
Christ.
But I think the idea behind itis that Christ bears our burdens
, right, he bears the burden ofsin and he also carries all of
our tears in a bottle.
And so the idea is basicallyChrist is for us, for you, so do
(35:51):
it for other people, that whenwe get to bear the burdens of
other people, we are getting toparticipate in what Christ does
for us.
And it's also interestingbecause there's this play on
words, because a little beforeit says each of you bear your
own burden, and then it saysbear each other's burdens.
And that seems kind ofcontradictory.
But the difference is that thefirst burden is like your work
(36:15):
bag for the day.
It's a burden you can carry.
The word just means like yourdaily burden, whereas when it
says bear each other's burdens,that burden is like a folder,
it's like something that youcannot carry on your own.
And so it's saying bear eachother's things that we can't
bear on our own.
And I think that for me oftenand maybe this is what I would
(36:36):
speak to somebody who'slistening to this I think that a
big burden that we can carry isnot wanting to burden others,
so saying I'm depressed, I'm sad, but I'm depressed and sad for
stupid reasons and I don't wantto make other people carry this
and I'm so difficult and I'm sowhatever.
And then we just keep it allinside and keep on carrying our
super heavy backpacks.
(36:56):
And what I would say to you is,if that's you, you may be
preventing someone fromfulfilling the law of Christ.
You may be preventing someonefrom getting to have the joy of
getting to be like Jesus, and Idon't want to promise too much.
People are imperfect.
People don't know how to dealwith sadness.
(37:16):
It scares them.
But if there's someone in yourlife who you know does want to
help you, let them help you, letthem fulfill the law of Christ.
That is actually a gift thatyou can give other people.
So those are some of mythoughts.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
And that's so good, and we so often try to be
independent and we don't wantother people's help, and now
we're in this world where we'renot tight in community, where
our neighbor is, you know, a fewfeet away from us and we're
borrowing sugar and eggs fromthem.
We're in this independentsociety where we can call Uber
Eats or whatever it is that youneed and it can be on your
(37:53):
doorstep in an hour, and so Ilove that you shared that,
because we do need to allowpeople to help us as well,
because it gives a gift to themas well.
So thank you for coming ontoday.
This has been just reallyinspirational and thoughtful and
I'm so glad you came on.
(38:14):
Your book is called you Are aTree and Other Metaphors to
Nourish Life, thought and Prayer.
Where can our friends find yourbook?
Where can they find you onlineif they want to follow you?
Speaker 2 (38:28):
You can find my book anywhere books are sold, so all
the usual suspects Amazon,barnes, noble bookshoporg and I
would love for you to purchasecopy.
And then you can find me onsocial media.
I'm on Instagram, facebook andTwitter under Join Marie
Clarkson.
Usually my handle is Join Usthe Brave, and then you can also
(38:51):
find me.
I have kind of the center ofwhere I do all of my writing and
podcasting is through Substack.
So if you just look up JoyClarkson, if you just Google Joy
Clarkson, Substack, it willcome up, and I think if you type
in JoyClarxsoncom, it will alsodirect it to Substack.
So that's where you can find meand I would love to connect
with people.
I do a weekly newsletter and atthe moment I'm doing weekly
(39:14):
podcast too, so I would love toconnect to other people further.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
All right, well, thank you so much for coming on.
It's been a joy, joy.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me, we enjoyed having you
here, so all right, thank you.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Thank you for joining us today in this episode of
Gracefield Grit.
I know that your time isvaluable and I truly appreciate
you being here.
I hope it was helpful and thatyou'll share it with a friend.
In order to schedule amazingguests on our show, we could use
some good reviews.
So if you've enjoyed thisepisode, I'd be honored if you
could head over to the podcastapp on your phone, tap the album
(39:51):
art for the Gracefield Gritpodcast, scroll down to the
bottom of the page and write areview.
I'm looking forward to our nextepisode and I hope you'll join
us again.
Blessings to you today, friend,as you live out your own
Gracefield Grit.
Welcome to Gracefield Grit.
I'm your host, lana Stinner,and we are chatting all about
growing your faith, family andthe backyard farm.
Here at the GracefieldHomestead, we are having honest,
hard and authenticconversations with some amazing
guests about getting back to thebasics and what's important in
life.
We are not for everyone and wedon't clean up our conversations
(00:29):
, so you will get the uneditedchat Each episode.
You can expect practical tipsand encouragement.
I am so honored to have youjoin us today, so grab a cup of
coffee and let's do this thing.
Hey friends, welcome back tothe podcast.
Today we are chatting with JoyClarkson.
She is an author and host ofthe popular podcast.
(00:51):
Speaking with Joy, she is thebooks editor for Plough
Quarterly and a researchassociate in theology and
literature at King's CollegeLondon.
Joy completed her PhD intheology at the University of St
Andrews, where she researchedhow art can be a resource of
hope.
Joy loves daffodils,birdwatching and a well-brewed
(01:14):
cup of tea, just like we do.
Welcome, joy.
I'm so glad to have you join uson the podcast today.
I'm so excited to be here.
I would love for our friendshere online to get to know you a
little bit better.
Do you mind sharing a littlebit about your life growing up,
what it is that drew you in tobe a writer, a poet and a deep
(01:35):
thinker.
I love your approach.
I've looked through your bookand read it and I just love your
approach to life and I want ourfriends here to know a little
bit more about you before wedive in.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
That's a great question.
I think a lot of it has to boildown to my family and the world
that I grew up in.
Both of my parents are authors.
I think in some sense I had theidea that you could be an
author.
That was the thing that youcould too.
My mom will always joke thatsome families they're all
farmers or they're all doctorsand that's the family trade.
(02:07):
In a way, that was our familytrade.
I think it wasn't just that, itwas also that I grew up in a
very literary, verbal household.
I haven't actually talked aboutthis in any other podcast.
I've been on.
So there you go.
I was homeschooled and myparents took a whole book
(02:27):
Charlotte Mason so the main waythat I was educated was through
reading a ton of books and thentalking about them.
When I think about the coursethat my life has taken on some
level even now as I'm teachingmaster students, I am still
reading a bunch of books andtalking about them I was drawn
to the life of words and theways in which it feels important
(02:53):
, I think, for human beings tobe able to talk about things
that are important to us, and totalk about them clearly and
well.
Sometimes the best way to talkabout things clearly and well is
through stories.
Sometimes we can't actually getat things through literal
language, and that's how I endedup studying the arts and
(03:15):
theology, because I thought,well, the most important thing
to talk about is God.
To me, that felt like the mostimportant thing, but I always
found for me that it was easieror more possible to talk and
think about deep and mysteriousthings when I was talking and
thinking about it through imagesand stories and music.
That felt like that kind ofencompassed some of the mystery.
(03:36):
So, yeah, so I think that'spainting with broad brushstrokes
part of what kind of led me towhere I am and led me to love
doing what I do.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I love that I love that and that you're
homeschooled.
I think I missed that.
I didn't realize that you werehomeschooled, and so we have a
lot of homeschoolers here in ourlistening base and I would love
for you to you know.
Are you a fan of homeschooling,being that you were brought up
in that, or do you?
You know?
What was your experience withthat?
Did you enjoy that?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I did.
Yeah, it's funny, it's notsomething I have a reason really
to talk about.
A lot in my normal life, youknow, people don't tend to ask
you when you're their instructorin college.
Were you homeschooled, right?
Right, but no, I thinkhomeschooling was really good
for me.
I think something that itallowed was for my parents to
kind of allow us to excel inwhat we excelled in and meet us
(04:36):
where we were with the thingsthat we struggled with, and I
think that it also sometimes forworse, but mostly for better
gave me almost like a kind of.
I had a lot of formative yearswhere I wasn't as formed by kind
of peer pressure or thinkingabout how the people thought
about me, and I actually thinkthere is some benefit in life to
(04:57):
caring people think about you.
You do need that.
As you know, we live in asociety, as they say.
But I also think that thatearly formation of kind of
allowing a lot of those seeds ofcreativity to just blossom
without self-consciousness wasreally helpful for me.
And you know, I think everychild, every family is different
(05:21):
, but that it was, and I did amix of things, you know, when I
was in high school I did someschool, but it was a really good
experience for me and I thinkit was really formative in ways
that I don't usually talk about.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
I love that and I totally agree with the
creativity piece.
I think that is one of the hugebenefits that we don't often
talk about that with the peoplethat I know that, schooled at
home, their creativity leveljust seemed so.
Maybe that's something you know.
I've never really thought aboutit, but I wonder if our
(05:58):
standard public school system isjust stifling a little bit to
that.
And then you throw in a artclass here there, a music class
here and there in high school,but it doesn't just truly get at
your soul in your heart.
So that's interesting I lovethat fact about you.
Okay, so totally off topic, butyou had, before we started
recording and we are chatting,you had mentioned you were in,
(06:19):
you lived in Scotland and thatyou work in London.
So I knew the London piece wasnot informed about the Scotland
piece.
So I am fascinated.
I've been there long, long ago.
So tell us just a day in yourlife, from when you wake up,
what is?
What is a day like?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
there.
So the background to why I livein Scotland is that I didn't.
I did my PhD at St AndrewsUniversity or University of St
Andrews, which one goes first,and so I've ended up back here,
even though I work in London.
So my typical day depends onwhether it's a London day or a
Scotland day, but in Scotland,so I work in London when I'm
(07:00):
teaching.
I'm down there once a week andthat is.
You know, that's a busy day.
That's getting up and hoppingon the tube and getting a coffee
before I go to teach studentsand then meeting with students,
and then you know the kind ofcity life which I really enjoy,
but I also love that.
Then my main kind of life, I goback to my little fishing
village and an average day isbecause my office is in London.
(07:26):
I do a lot of work from home,so I wake up and I'm a real
breakfast girl.
I think that it's important toeat breakfast.
So, I eat my breakfast and Iusually try to do work at a
coffee shop in the morning.
There's not many options, butI'm very faithful to the coffee
shop that I do have.
Oh, I love it and I do somework.
I always try to do writing inthe morning and then have lunch
(07:48):
with my loved one, and then I dowork in the afternoon.
That sounds very boring, butthen I'll add in a walk.
Right now it's too cold to walkin Scotland.
It's just kind of miserable.
Usually I would take a walkWe'd live not too far from sea
and then maybe go to a pub withsome friends after dinner, which
is one of the great benefits ofthe UK that you know, the pubs
(08:10):
are Not a bar it feels veryfamilial.
You'll see kids and dogs andstuff.
That's the thing I love.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
It sounds dreamy.
It sounds dreamy.
That is on my recent bucketlist to make it back there, so
thank you for sharing that withus.
Okay, so you often share aboutyour love for the outdoors,
flowers and birds.
We are on the tipping point ofspring here in the Midwest in
the United States and just thisvery weekend I noticed our
(08:38):
Daffodil stems are finallypopping up and there are some
buds on our trees.
You write about watching thecherry tree outside your bedroom
window.
Share a little bit about thatand what it taught you.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
So that section in my book you Are a Tree was about
after I had just finished mystudies and I was really kind of
burned out and exhausted and Imoved from Scotland and I was
living in England and I had thischerry tree that was outside my
window and I moved there inwinter and it was totally kind
of barren and stripped down andover the course of the year that
(09:12):
I lived in that one house Iwatched it go from that kind of
barren winter tree to suddenlygetting the buds and then
bursting into these.
Like I always say this, theygenuinely were like glow in the
dark, like at night.
I felt like I could see themglowing in the dark beautiful,
you know papery petals in thespringtime and then just being
(09:33):
absolutely bursting with foliagein the summer and then kind of
that gentle transition back tothe bareness in the winter.
And as I watched that tree Iwatched something go through
these really radical changes,you know, four times in one year
.
But it made me think about howeach one of those stages, each
one of those seasons, was a partof the next, that you couldn't
(09:57):
have the springtime if youdidn't have the winter, you
couldn't have the summer if youdidn't let the petals fall off
in the spring and that each ofthem was meaningful and
important.
And I thought about myself and Ithought maybe I actually am
more like a cherry tree.
You know, there will be seasonsand there have been seasons in
my life where I just felt kindof barren and like I didn't have
(10:19):
any leaves or pretty petals andthen it didn't seem like
anything was happening.
And but understanding those inthe context of the cherry tree,
thinking about my seasons aregonna be different.
I'm gonna be capable ofdifferent things in different
seasons.
Some seasons will feel fruitfuland abundant and some will feel
exhausting.
Some will feel morecontemplative and some will feel
(10:40):
more active and kind ofembracing that lesson from the
cherry tree to not feel guiltyabout the season that I'm in.
If I'm in winter, nothing that Ido can make it be spring.
I just have to wait and letthose roots grow deep.
And actually for cherry trees,I've been told that it's
actually the really cold winteris important for the fruit in
(11:01):
the summer.
So kind of embracing that maybethere's actually something
about this winter that will helpme bear fruit in the future,
you know.
Or if I'm in a busy summerseason where I need to start to
harvest and I feel like I'm notthinking deep thoughts or
praying enough.
Going you know what, maybethat's just the season that I'm
in, and so watching the cherrytree kind of invited me to pay
(11:22):
more attention to my own lifeand to think about what season I
was in and to act accordinglyand not live under the kind of
guilty exhaustion of thinkingthat I needed to be the same all
the time.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
That's so good and so true about how, in winter, you
know we're just coming out ofwinter and there's so much going
on.
You know behind the scenes arein.
You know we have a bunch ofraised beds under the ground,
that's going on and it justlooks barren and cold and
desolate, but there's a lot ofactivity going on during that
(11:59):
timeframe.
So I thank you for sharing that, because that's such a powerful
word picture to me.
So tell us a little bit moreabout your faith journey.
Was there any pivotal momentsin your life that you feel like
led you to hear or that you hada huge aha moment?
(12:20):
Of course, you know our entirefaith journey is a big aha
moment.
Every day, every minute.
It feels like you know, youthink at my age you think, okay,
I've read the Bible through youso many times, I know it all,
whatever, and it's likeliterally every day is an aha
moment.
But is there something that waspivotal you know during your
(12:41):
lifetime that you can look backon and say that that led you to
where you're at?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
That's a good question.
So there are.
There are there's actually kindof two moments that came to my
mind and I'll try to tell youabout both briefly, and I
actually have written about bothof them in one of my other
books.
But I, you know, as I shared, Iwas raised in a really loving
family where faith was veryexciting and good and I had a
(13:08):
lot of scripture read to me as akid, and.
But something I really struggledwith through my kind of late
teens and early 20s, and that Istill struggle with from time to
time, is I just kind of wouldhave this kind of existential
doubt that I could trust thatChristianity was true, but and
that's that's almost a not quiteincorrect, that's not quite a
(13:31):
correct way to say it, but Iwould just have this sense that
I deeply wanted it to be true.
But I had all these questionsand doubts and I just wasn't
sure if I kind of generatebelief in myself, and so I had,
I really struggled with that.
And I struggled with it becauseI often felt like that was
narrated by people around me aslike a desire to rebel or
something, and for me it reallywasn't.
(13:52):
It was I deeply wanted tobelieve.
But I found it really difficultto do so and I had this one
kind of miraculous moment whereI had been really struggling
with that and it had been kindof brought on because someone,
someone who was beloved assomebody that I loved that's a
convoluted way of saying that Ihad died and it felt just kind
(14:15):
of earth-shattering anddifficult and sad and it's I had
been feeling pretty good in myfaith and it just kind of spun
me out into a place that I kindof couldn't hold and didn't feel
like I was capable of holdingonto my faith.
And I happened to be going on aweekend trip this is actually in
Scotland with a friend and andI was like trying not to tell
(14:35):
her all my deep existentialdoubts that I was having as you
know, we all occasionally willdo and but we were staying in
this tower.
This sounds like I'm making itup, but her family had been
Scottish back like backgenerations, and her mom had
found that they had like anancestral tower, and by that I
mean like it's not like a castle, it's like literally like a
tall tower and there's just likefour, four stories and they're
(14:58):
all one room.
And they had these in back inthe day because the lower, like
the lowlands of Scotland, werereally dangerous because they
were always people were fighting, so they would have a tower for
someone to like watch and seeif the surrounding clans were,
you know, moving for attack.
So apparently this has beentraded to an Airbnb and so we
were staying there and I kind ofmanaged to hold it together.
(15:21):
We had a nice day and then I,but I couldn't sleep, so I went
down and I made myself a cup oftea and I was kind of journaling
about you know, kind of youknow existential like is this,
it, like it, can I?
You know, is that?
Do I have a faith anymore?
And my computer was playingSpotify.
(15:41):
You know Spotify will like justchoose something for your
algorithm and it started playingthis beautiful song.
If you've never heard it, lookit up.
Called you've heard the songJesus blood never failed me yet.
Have you heard that song?
I think so.
I think so.
Okay, so it has a reallyinteresting story, which is that
we don't actually know where itcame from.
It's not actually him, but inthis documentary on sorry, I'm
(16:02):
getting you.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
But it sounds like.
It sounds like a him, right?
Is it the okay?
Yes, yeah, yes.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
But it's.
They found this in thisdocumentary on homelessness in
London.
This guy found this, this man,this homeless man who was
singing it to himself over andover again.
And then this composer madethis beautiful kind of
orchestral arrangement aroundthis very simple song, and so,
apparently, spotify thought thatthat was something that I would
want to hear, and so it startedplaying this and it was
(16:29):
beautiful, and it was over andover again, and I was like, of
all the songs you know, it wouldbring me this that Jesus blood
never failed me yet.
And then, out of nowhere, abutterfly I'm not kidding showed
up in this tower, this tower inthe third story.
Like where did a butterfly comefrom?
And it was this funny momentbecause I it just felt like God
(16:53):
had met me.
And then he said you know you,you actually don't have to
generate the faith withinyourself.
I am with you.
If you let go, I will still bethere, and that's it was also
kind of interesting momentbecause it didn't prove anything
.
It didn't like, you know, I'msure somehow I could imagine a
circumstance in which abutterfly could end up in a
(17:14):
third story of a tower and andyou know, spotify would choose a
song, but to me it met me inthat moment and kind of reminded
me of the sense that I don'thave to carry my own faith.
So I think that's somethingthat's very important to me is
is the sense that I I try not tofocus so much on my own belief
(17:34):
in God, but the sense that Godis there to be believed in,
whether I believe him or not,and he actually, in the words of
Wendell Berry, he holds me evenwhen I don't want him.
Oh, that's powerful.
You got, I've got goosebumps.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
That's good, that is so good.
Oh, wow, and I have thatpicture in my head.
Just you know what a beautifulscene that he showed up there
for you.
Love that, I love that.
Okay, so in your latest book,titled you are a tree and other
metaphors to nourish your life,thought and prayer, your chapter
one starts with Jeremiah 17.8,which is one of my favorite
books.
Your chapter one starts withJeremiah 17.8, which is one of
(18:12):
my absolute favorite passages inscripture.
I'll go ahead and read it justso our listeners remember which
one it is.
They will be like a treeplanted by the water that sends
out its roots by the stream.
It does not fear when heatcomes, its leaves are always
green, it has no worries in ayear of drought and never fails
to bear fruit.
(18:32):
I love that.
So what is the practicalmessage and takeaway from your
writings as you begin your book?
What do you want our listenersto think about?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
So one of the things I want to think about I think we
already started to get at thiswhen I was talking about my
cherry tree but so I want peopleto think about the metaphors
they use to describe their lifeand I know that sounds very like
I don't use metaphors.
You know why are metaphorsimportant to me?
But something that I think theyactually are very important.
So you have people like there'sa book called Metaphors we Live
(19:06):
by.
We're talking about the factthat all of our language is
metaphorical and that thelanguage that we use shapes kind
of our expectations and thenhow we act.
So an example of this I talkabout in the book it's like if
you always use metaphors ofsickness for love which sounds
funny, right, you think we don'tuse sickness for love, but you
(19:27):
do.
You talk about being crazy inlove, you talk about being
lovesick.
If that is your main way oftalking about love, then love is
.
That means that you expect thatlove is something that happens
to you.
It kind of takes you over andtakes you out of your normal
state.
It's something you can catch,feelings, and then it's gone
right, just like a diseasepasses.
(19:47):
And that metaphor shapes how wethink about how we engage with
love, whereas if you replace itwith something different like
love is a home you know, we talkabout letting someone in,
feeling at home, with someonebelonging then that metaphor is
more capacious because you canthink about a home is something
that is safe, so you don't letdangerous things into it.
(20:10):
It's a place that youexperience belonging, it's a
place that you accept thelimitations of, but then you can
make it interesting andrelevant to your own personality
.
So that's an example of thefact that we do use metaphors
all the time, and the metaphorsthat we use shape how we kind of
act in life.
(20:30):
And so with the URA Tree, thatparticular metaphor and the
metaphor for the whole book,part of what I wanted to respond
to and I think this is apractical thing, even if it
feels a little bit out there ishow often we talk about our
lives in terms of kind ofmachines.
So we talk about recharging, wetalk about updating each other
(20:52):
like we're software, we talkabout processing something.
You know, when somethingdifficult happens, it's really
processing that.
And the problem to me with allthese metaphors they do describe
something right and we justtalk that way naturally all the
time.
And it makes sense that we do,because metaphors are using
physical, material things todescribe kind of immaterial
(21:13):
things, right, and we usemachine metaphors because we see
machines all the time.
We are talking through machine,you know.
But the problem with that isthat if you think about
metaphors as shaping ourexpectations, if I talk about
myself like a machine, if I talkabout processing, then what I
(21:33):
expect is that my emotions willact like a computer processing
something, right?
So when a computer processessomething, when it processes
podcasts, and you update it, ittakes some time and then it's
done, you update it.
The problem is that's notusually how our emotions work,
right, I'll have somethingdifficult happen to me.
I'll think I'm over it and twomonths later I'll be mad or sad
(21:54):
or whatever again.
And if I have that kind ofmachine metaphor in my mind,
I'll feel frustrated and I'llthink why is this still
happening, why is this happeningto me again?
And I'll feel guilty and I'llfeel shame and I'll get stuck in
that cycle because I'mexpecting myself to act like a
machine.
But I'm not a machine.
And that also goes, I think,with productivity.
You know, when you beatyourself up because my computer
(22:17):
does act the same way every day,and I want it to act the same
way every day, I want it to runthe same speed, I want it to be
able to do the same things.
But we can't right.
I today I found myself kind ofexhausted because yesterday was
my launch day.
I had a lot of adrenaline goingall day, so most of what I
managed to do today was likeanswer emails and have this
conversation with you, and if Iwere to think about myself like
(22:39):
a machine, I would go.
The computer that is Joy MarieClarkson, is malfunctioning.
She is not acting, she's notproducing the same amount of
things.
But that's not how our bodieswork.
We are more like the cherrytree and we actually we exist
better, we're more productive,we're more fruitful, we're
happier when we accept kind ofwhat we are like.
(23:01):
And so I think watching out forthose metaphors that we use and
replacing them sometimes withmore life-giving metaphors helps
us do that.
So that's a very long way tosay.
I think that metaphors arepractical.
Thinking about them shapes howwe live and the expectations
that we have of ourselves, andso I want the book to kind of
help people be aware of themetaphors they're using and then
(23:22):
give them other metaphors thatmight be more nourishing or
life-giving or organic asopposed to mechanistic.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
And that's so good, and we oh, as you gave the
example of I need to recharge orI need to.
You know we had recently we hadthe shooting here in Kansas
City and I said several timesit's days later I'm still
processing it, it doesn't seemreal, and so we say those things
on how we are using ouremotions, and there there's
(23:53):
definitely better ways to dothat.
So I've caught myself doingthat a lot in the last couple of
weeks.
So you've also written aboutbeing a potted plant.
So you had said that you hadmoved a lot as a child and then
even as an adult, you had movedonce a year for seven years and
you never felt like you put downtrue roots.
(24:14):
So do you still feel likeyou're a potted plant?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
In some ways yes and in some ways no.
So I think that part of why Iwrote that section of the book
was that having that kind ofmetaphor come to me.
And the context of that was Iwas sitting in my old flat where
I finished my studies and I wassitting, all my stuff was all
ramble-shamble inside and I waslooking at the little garden
(24:42):
that it shared with the lettingagency below and I had all these
beautiful trees and they'd beenthere for a long time before I
came there and they'll probablybe there a long time after.
And then I was thinking on mylittle potted plant inside that
I kind of kept alive while I wasfinishing my studies and I was
trying to decide what to do withit, whether I should give it to
somebody else, and but it waskind of getting a little stringy
(25:03):
.
So I thought that might bealmost rude and I thought I'm a
potted plant.
I am not like these beautifulrooted trees.
I am always going from one placeto another and, like my little
plant inside, I've grown toomuch to fit in my pot and where
can I belong, and I thinkactually just being able to put
that into words was reallyhelpful for me Sometimes there's
(25:27):
just relief in being able todescribe an experience that
you're having, but I think italso helped me to think about
okay, well, if I am too big formy pot, then what do I need?
How can I grow, how can I deepen?
And I would say that in thebasically three years since I
had that experience and wrotethose words, there are many ways
(25:47):
in my life where maybe Ihaven't rooted to one place I
would love to eventually.
But there are places, there areways in my life in which I am
more rooted in community, inrelationships and in my faith
that I feel like I have put downsome roots, even if they're not
in community.
But part of that was puttingthat finger, my finger, on the
(26:09):
fact that, okay, if I'm going tocontinue to grow, I need to not
be a pot of plants anymore.
And so I think that has beenkind of a characteristic of the
last few years for me is kind ofnarrowing my life and going.
I'm going to choose, I'm goingto narrow my options and find
places to plant relationally,spiritually and emotionally.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
That's so good and it's so hard in life when we're
being transplanted.
I mean, we're here, we're rightin the middle of all of that,
getting ready to go into spring,and I, just as you're chatting,
I'm just I'm thinking about ourblueberries and we are here at
(26:51):
the Gracefield Homestead.
We're kind of we focus in on afew plants and we do them really
well and we grow a lot of themand I'm not into a bunch of
different things, but we try alot and then if it works and we
can go on and blueberries areone of the things we have.
Just it's been an epic failover here.
To be honest with you, everyyear I try to plant blueberries
(27:13):
and I don't know if it's ourregion or my soil or what I'm
doing wrong, but we've been busywith other things and so I
haven't spent the research timeto like what am I doing.
I just throw something in theground or whatever, and I buy a
potted plant already from thenursery and put it in the ground
and like, literally three timesin, three times in the last
three years, we've lost them andso we've started digging in.
(27:36):
I'm like, okay, this is ouryear to be very successful at
this one plant.
We mastered the potatoes, wemastered the peppers, we
mastered the tomatoes all thesethings, we've mastered this.
I'm going to conquerblueberries, and so the year of
the blueberry, the year of theblueberry and so interesting.
As you're chatting, we've beenwatching a lot of YouTube videos
(27:57):
and like, what have we donewrong?
What do we need to change thisyear?
But one of them showed this guytaking the big pot out and he
literally cut up with a chainsawup the middle in a cross on
both sides, like it almost wentall the way through the plant.
And I was just like horrifiedwatching this video, like you're
(28:18):
going to cut the whole plantand I, you know, we've always
broken the roots apart and youknow it's so it just is not what
you think you need to do whenyou have to break up that bunch
of roots, but it's so painful todo that.
But and then he's flashforwarding and showing these,
you know, beautiful, abundantplants, after this huge, painful
(28:40):
you know like we are used tothat with the pruning on, you
know, on the tops of the treesand things.
But he's doing this at the rootlevel and I was like, wow,
that's such a beautiful pictureand you're talking about.
It's not always easy when we're, you know, trying to transplant
and put those roots down.
It can be so painful.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
So yeah, well, that's something.
I love hearing that and it'ssomething I wrote a little bit
about the book.
But I love Wendell Berry as anovelist.
You know, great inspirer ofmany people to go and have a
piece of land.
But I used to always think buthe has an ancestral farm, like I
have to pick somewhere.
I'm the blueberry plant thathas to pick somewhere and rip up
(29:20):
my roots.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
And and I think that that's such a reminder that I
think that being rootedsomewhere is not really easy,
you know it's.
It's especially if you've had along nomadic life, and I think
that to some degree most peoplein the modern world have had a
pretty nomadic life.
It's, it is just kind of theconditions of the world that
we're in and I think I am reallygrateful for the some of the
(29:47):
rootedness I do have in my lifenow.
But it can feel violent, likewhen you, when you, when you
choose somewhere or you choosesomeone, or you choose some
church, where you choose one job, there's something, there's
something very scary about thatright, because it's it's going
I'm choosing this place and notanother, this person and not
another, and it can do a lot ofviolence to how you think about
(30:07):
who you are and some of yourexpectations of life.
But but that there's such graceand growth in in that
experience which can feel, couldfeel very uprooting.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Even as you are being rooted, and that's that's that.
Yeah, I wrote a little bitabout that kind of experience
and one of the other chapters Italked about I think the chapter
is entitled creativity as birth, but it's also kind of about
vocation, the things you'recalled to in life.
You know, whether that meansthe job that you're called to or
which I don't think anyone'sreally called to a job, but the
(30:46):
sense of kind of what you'recalled to in life, or marriage
and things like that, that allof those things kind of involve
something like birth right, thatyou kind of you go from one
state to another, you becomesomething new, and that that is
that birth is always riskybusiness and planting.
It's painful, yes, it is painful, and planting, planting potted
(31:06):
plants is always risky business,but but I think and I think
this is kind of a part of what Iwould diagnose as some of the
problems of our culture it isrisky business, it is painful,
but you can only grow so much ina pot and at some point you
will begin to not flourish, andso so I'm thankful for the, the
(31:28):
terror and the goodness ofstarting to put down roots in
life.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
That's so good.
So, good, you started chaptersix of your new book with
another one of my favoritepassages in scripture, psalm 55,
22, and it is.
I'll read it here give yourburdens to the Lord and he will
take care of you.
He will not permit the godly toslip and fall.
And you write about burdens ofgrief, depression, sadness,
(31:57):
disappointment and shame.
Share a little bit more aboutthis.
And what would you say to alistener that is beyond burdens
and just can't see the lightright now?
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Well, I think the first thing I would just say
before I ramble is that you arenot alone.
Other people have felt this way.
God is with you, you areremembered, you are held, you
are loved and Okay, talk, and totry not to feel guilty for
feeling where you are, becauseit will only add more burdens to
you.
So in that chapter I wroteabout how so many of the words
(32:37):
that we use for kind of burdensor sadness or depression have to
do with weight, right, so wetalk about I feel burdened.
Or we talk about feelingheavy-hearted, right, like
that's like a weight in yourheart.
Or even the word depressionimplies pushing something down,
(32:58):
right, putting weight onsomething so that it goes
further down.
And in the opposite of that'strue too, like when we talk
about happy personally, saythey're light-hearted, or you
know, humor brings levity.
So that sense of weightinessand in the chapter I talk about
the difference between heavinessand a burden, and that may seem
kind of pedantic, but ifsadness is heavy, that's what
(33:22):
kind of depression feels like tome, right, it's like carrying
around an extra weight with you,no matter what you're doing, so
that doing normal tasks andbeing a normal person is more
exhausting.
But for me sometimes this mayseem silly, but visualizing my
sadness or my struggles whenI've been in that place, not as
(33:42):
heaviness but as a burden, likea literal burden, like a little
backpack of all of my sadnessthat I have to carry around,
kind of weirdly, helps mestrategize how to be and how to
exist with sadness.
Because, for one thing, you canthink, okay, well, if my
sadness is a burden, if it's alittle backpack full of weight,
(34:04):
is there some of this weightthat I can get rid of?
Right, some things in life wejust we are going to carry
burdens, right, if we lovepeople, if we have lived in this
world full of chaos anddestruction, we will carry
burdens in our life and some ofthose things we can't put down,
but some of them we can.
So if you're carrying a lot ofshame that is not your shame to
(34:25):
carry, then talk with somebody,find a way to kind of take that
out of your burden.
Right, you will have to carryburdens.
You don't have to carry allburdens.
It also helps me think aboutokay, well, if my burdens are a
burden of their backpack, then Ican set them down sometimes,
right, I think if anyone's beensad.
Sometimes you can have a daywhere you just almost forgot
(34:48):
that you were sad.
You know and maybe that's assimple as watching a TV show you
like, or there's a particularperson that brings you happiness
Find a way to set down yourburden every once in a while and
I also I was thinking aboutthis recently.
How many of the words we useit's like we say that crying
brings a release.
That's like putting down yourburden right, to release.
(35:09):
It's just for a little while,to set down your burden.
But the other thing aboutburdens is that we can carry
them with other people.
So I talk in that chapter aboutGalatians.
But it talks about.
It says bear each other'sburdens and so fulfill the law
of Christ.
Right, and I think it's funny.
It's kind of a debated passageamong scholars.
(35:29):
Scholars can debate anything,because Paul uses this phrase
once that he never seems to useit again the fulfill the law of
Christ.
But I think the idea behind itis that Christ bears our burdens
, right, he bears the burden ofsin and he also carries all of
our tears in a bottle.
And so the idea is basicallyChrist is for us, for you, so do
(35:51):
it for other people, that whenwe get to bear the burdens of
other people, we are getting toparticipate in what Christ does
for us.
And it's also interestingbecause there's this play on
words, because a little beforeit says each of you bear your
own burden, and then it saysbear each other's burdens.
And that seems kind ofcontradictory.
But the difference is that thefirst burden is like your work
(36:15):
bag for the day.
It's a burden you can carry.
The word just means like yourdaily burden, whereas when it
says bear each other's burdens,that burden is like a folder,
it's like something that youcannot carry on your own.
And so it's saying bear eachother's things that we can't
bear on our own.
And I think that for me oftenand maybe this is what I would
(36:36):
speak to somebody who'slistening to this I think that a
big burden that we can carry isnot wanting to burden others,
so saying I'm depressed, I'm sad, but I'm depressed and sad for
stupid reasons and I don't wantto make other people carry this
and I'm so difficult and I'm sowhatever.
And then we just keep it allinside and keep on carrying our
super heavy backpacks.
(36:56):
And what I would say to you is,if that's you, you may be
preventing someone fromfulfilling the law of Christ.
You may be preventing someonefrom getting to have the joy of
getting to be like Jesus, and Idon't want to promise too much.
People are imperfect.
People don't know how to dealwith sadness.
(37:16):
It scares them.
But if there's someone in yourlife who you know does want to
help you, let them help you, letthem fulfill the law of Christ.
That is actually a gift thatyou can give other people.
So those are some of mythoughts.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
And that's so good, and we so often try to be
independent and we don't wantother people's help, and now
we're in this world where we'renot tight in community, where
our neighbor is, you know, a fewfeet away from us and we're
borrowing sugar and eggs fromthem.
We're in this independentsociety where we can call Uber
Eats or whatever it is that youneed and it can be on your
(37:53):
doorstep in an hour, and so Ilove that you shared that,
because we do need to allowpeople to help us as well,
because it gives a gift to themas well.
So thank you for coming ontoday.
This has been just reallyinspirational and thoughtful and
I'm so glad you came on.
(38:14):
Your book is called you Are aTree and Other Metaphors to
Nourish Life, thought and Prayer.
Where can our friends find yourbook?
Where can they find you onlineif they want to follow you?
Speaker 2 (38:28):
You can find my book anywhere books are sold, so all
the usual suspects Amazon,barnes, noble bookshoporg and I
would love for you to purchasecopy.
And then you can find me onsocial media.
I'm on Instagram, facebook andTwitter under Join Marie
Clarkson.
Usually my handle is Join Usthe Brave, and then you can also
(38:51):
find me.
I have kind of the center ofwhere I do all of my writing and
podcasting is through Substack.
So if you just look up JoyClarkson, if you just Google Joy
Clarkson, Substack, it willcome up, and I think if you type
in JoyClarxsoncom, it will alsodirect it to Substack.
So that's where you can find meand I would love to connect
with people.
I do a weekly newsletter and atthe moment I'm doing weekly
(39:14):
podcast too, so I would love toconnect to other people further.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
All right, well, thank you so much for coming on.
It's been a joy, joy.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me, we enjoyed having you
here, so all right, thank you.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Thank you for joining us today in this episode of
Gracefield Grit.
I know that your time isvaluable and I truly appreciate
you being here.
I hope it was helpful and thatyou'll share it with a friend.
In order to schedule amazingguests on our show, we could use
some good reviews.
So if you've enjoyed thisepisode, I'd be honored if you
could head over to the podcastapp on your phone, tap the album
(39:51):
art for the Gracefield Gritpodcast, scroll down to the
bottom of the page and write areview.
I'm looking forward to our nextepisode and I hope you'll join
us again.
Blessings to you today, friend,as you live out your own
Gracefield Grit.
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