September 19, 2023 • 54 mins
Minimalism is way weirder than Tiff and Kat thought. In this episode, dive into whether or not The Minimalists' recommendations are actually eco-friendly. Plus, compare the pros and cons to the Buy Nothing Project and Swedish Death Cleaning. Does following The Minimalists' rules automatically lead to more sustainable living? Listen to find out.
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Sources
- The Buy Nothing, Get Everything Plan: Discover the Joy of Spending Less, Sharing More, and Living Generously book
- The Minimalists Podcast, website, and "16 rules" e-book
- The Commodification of Minimalism, Mike Grindle on Medium
- The Pitfalls and Potential of New Minimalism, Jia Tolentino for the New Yorker
- International Journal of Cognitive Therapy study
- Environment and Behavior study on office clutter
- JStor Daily on hoarding disorder
- Plain Simple Life blog on eco-minimalism
- NIH study on hoarding disorder
- Shelbizleee on YouTube
- The Swedes know the secret to happiness: You are not your stuff in Washington Post on Swedish death cleaning
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Is minimalism eco friendlier, Iread this really good blog by
the plain simple life. And shesays minimalists don't
necessarily focus on beingenvironmentally positive. They
may focus more on living asimple life, which I think is
what we've seen, with less, lessclutter and less stress.
(00:26):
Hi, Tiffany, go inthe first day of my period, I
was like, should I share this?
Out? Let's share it's fine.
So I'm very sleep. But yeah,other than that, things are
(00:48):
good. Sothat you know, sometimes, I
don't know I don't I shouldprobably shouldn't go off on my
feminist rant about how weshould get time off periods.
Because I know that's acontentious matter. But, man,
man alive is right. Man isright. A
(01:09):
woman really likes women.
Truthfully. Yeah. Yeah. So eventhough I'm tired, I'm still
super excited about thisepisode. Because as I mentioned
at the end of last week'sepisode, this, we're talking
about minimalism, and I wantedto explore the sustainability of
(01:31):
minimalism because I think a lotof people talk about it. And if
you don't know what it is,that's okay, explain it. But
they talk about it as if it isautomatically more sustainable.
And to the things. I don't know,I just found i I'm shooting
more, so I'm going to shoot onit a little bit, but I'm
(01:55):
shooting more on one particularsubset of minimalism. And I came
into it, it just surprised mebecause I came into it very open
minded and actually appreciatingminimalism for a lot of things.
And I still do and yet, and yet,so we can't talk about
(02:15):
minimalism without talking aboutthe minimalists. Okay, do you
know Okay, possibly.
Okay, I hope I almost hope thatyou don't, but you probably baby
do so. They are two guys namedJoshua fields. Milburn is one
(02:39):
and Ryan Nicodemus is the other.
They're the Bife. Far, far andaway the most famous and most
influential minimalists outthere at the moment. They have
an Emmy non Emmy nominated adocumentary on Netflix. It's
called minimalism.
Have you seen it? Okay. No, Ihaven't. Okay, because I didn't
had I didn't know it was took Ithought minimalism was like, a
(03:02):
worldwide phenomenon, but it canbe attributed to two guys.
No, no, no. So I'm not sayingthat they invented it. Okay. But
they are the most influentialpeople who are shouting the
gospel of minimalism at themoment.
Evangelical minimalists.
One you have no idea howaccurate okay. Yes. So they
(03:30):
because my next bullet point isthat they remind me of
megachurch pastors.
Okay. All right. Yes.
And I don't mind I don't care ifyou go to church or whatever,
but don't preach at me. That'show I feel.
Um, so? Yeah, yeah. So like timehow to be
(03:52):
exactly. So I'm gonna start witha tidbit and then dive into it
after I cite my sources. So Iwent into this with a completely
open mind. I had watched theirdocumentary a couple of years
ago, and I really liked it,because it they were basically
just talking about howminimalism helped them. And I
(04:14):
don't know, I thought it was areally inspiring documentary.
And then I don't know ifsomething's changed, or if I've
changed or whatever. But Ilistened to the most recent
episode as of August 2023, whenwe're recording this, of the
minimalist podcast, which iswildly popular. And the most
(04:37):
recent episode I thought wasreally appropriate for the
topic. So they were answering alistener question about the by
nothing movement. Okay. Yes,yes. And caveat little side
note, the by nothing movement,and I'll get into it a little
bit more. We've talked about itsome but it started with an
(04:57):
environmental focus. Theminimalists did not. So that's
just a sort of laying thegroundwork. But there it was
Joshua, his response just wentoff the rails to the point that
I was like, Yes, I was justlike, what is happening and I'm
(05:21):
going to give you a little bitlittle tidbit of it right now.
Okay. So it was Joshua and hisco host, TK Coleman, they
started with a wild analysis ofthe book title The by nothing
that the two founders wrote. Theit's the book title is called
the Buy Nothing, get everythingplan, discover the joy of
(05:41):
spending less, sharing more andliving generously.
Oh, I can already see wherethey're gonna have a problem
with this. All soundslovely to me. But yeah, Joshua
says, quote, I want to give youa warning, that binary thinking
often leads to detrimentaloutcomes, in harmonious
outcomes. By nothing, geteverything when taken literally
(06:04):
means one thing. But when wetake it as a figurative stance,
or a new disposition on life canmean something completely
different. Okay? His co host TKsays when taken really
literally, it's scary. It'slike, Man, I didn't even pay for
this stuff. And now I got it.
(06:24):
Now I still gotta figure outwhat I'm going to do with it.
Then Joshua says, Buy Nothing.
You can even take thatliterally, can I go out and buy
something called nothing? Oh, mygosh, oh, wait a minute. And how
much does nothing cost? And ifyou buy nothing, and you get
everything, maybe I didn't wanteverything. But and then he
(06:48):
says, finishes his out finishesit out. But that is not the
spirit of this book.
Okay, so Okay.
And neither of them had read thebook, by the way. So they were
answering a listener questionabout this movement about this
book. And they had not even readthe book. They were just really
(07:11):
spitballin And I was so lost andimmediately put off by
Yeah, that sounds like somereligious hooey like it. Well,
we don't like this threat to ourway of life, which is, I don't
know. Well, I we haven't reallydiscussed what minimalism is.
But I'm guessing they don't likethe idea of more stuff. Period.
(07:33):
Right.
I think that's it. Yeah.
I buy nothing group would be allabout more stuff. But kind of,
but not really. I know. That's athing about that mean, I have so
frustrating. Yeah, the premiseof Buy Nothing is don't throw
stuff away. Give it to somebodywho can use it.
Yes. And don't buy new stuff.
Like I don't understand, whichseems
(07:56):
like it would be minimalism isbest friend. Exactly. That's why
I'm so confused whatreligions can have best friends
because right or not, right.
100%That's exactly what's happening.
Oh my gosh, yeah. So now I wantto answer is the lifestyle
advertised by the minimalists?
Sustainable? Okay, you're goingto find out and we're gonna
(08:20):
compare them to the Buy Nothingproject and also Swedish death
cleaning. I looked into a littlebit yeah,
there's so much in this episode.
Yeah, I didn't. I had to likecut down some because I didn't
want it to be 1000 years long.
But yeah, I wanted to cover allthat stuff. Because it's like
kind of all encompassingminimalism because there are 1
million ways you can go aboutit. So
(08:40):
well, unless you're these hostswho exactly they have gospel on
Yeah,you are going to just crapped
your pants again.
At the savings?
No. At the absurdity, okay. Somy sources, again, the Buy
(09:02):
Nothing get everything planbook, The minimalist podcast,
obviously. And I also,unfortunately, gave them my
email and downloaded one oftheir books.
Like an eBook, a fake email, oh,man. Well, I
needed to I wanted to read I hadto know what I was. I didn't
(09:23):
want to accuse them of somethingwithout really knowing like
them. You know, I wanted to bethe better woman so. So there
was a really good article on onmedium by this guy named Mike
Grendel. It's called thecommodification of minimalism.
And GIA Tolentino writes for TheNew Yorker and she wrote a
(09:45):
couple years ago the pitfallsand potential of new minimalism.
Then I looked into a couple ofstudies. So internet, the
International Journal ofcognitive therapy study the
environment and behavior therewas an environment and behavior
Study on Office clutter. JSTORdaily talks about hoarding
(10:05):
disorder. So I talk abouthoarding a little bit also okay.
Yeah, because it's obviouslythe, you know, suppose it
opposite. The blit plain, simplelife has a blog on eco
minimalism. And there's an inOh, there is also an NIH study
on hoarding disorder. Oh, andthen I found in Eco minimalist
(10:27):
on YouTube named shell Bisley.
It's spelled very confusingly,so I will link it, but she's got
some really cool. Really, like,really good videos. So okay. And
then finally, one source onSwedish death cleaning from the
Washington Post. Cool. So whatis minimalism? And why is it
(10:49):
interesting? Well, first, it ispopular AF. So the minimalist
podcast has over 100 milliondownloads. Oh my gosh, their
first Netflix documentary,minimalism has over 80 million
views. And, you know, MarieKondo is kind of like in that
vein, too, and she's incrediblyinfluential. She's obviously
(11:12):
doesn't isn't associated withthem, and I have completely
different feelings about her.
But, um, and to be clear, we'retalking about new minimalism.
This is something that has beenthat sort of how it's been
defined, because the idea ofliving with less has been around
for 1000s of years. You know,this is not new. We're talking
about with poverty, the Hmong.
Exactly, you know, exactly,yeah. So, if you want like a
(11:35):
definition, this might help youunderstand why this was a little
bit this actually was like quitehard to research. Because Mike
Grendel, the medium articlegives a really good definition.
Sometimes minimalism is framedas a reaction to consumerism.
(11:56):
Other times it's more aboutobjects, where we keep them how
they affect our moods, whetherthey spark joy. On other
occasions, minimalism ispresented as a kind of
productivity hack, as if it werea secret barrier between the
ultra rich and the disorganizedmasses.
Right. Okay. Which I love thatquote. Yeah.
(12:19):
So that's why it's it's verydifficult office.
Yeah, yes.
And so some people say like, ifone comes in one goes out. So if
you buy something, you have toget rid of something. That's
That'spretty. That's a big closet
thing people do. Yeah. Yeah. Forlike, if I buy a new dress, I
have to get rid of an old one.
(12:41):
Yeah, I don't do that. But don'tuse it.
I'm not a minimalist. I thinkpeople people do that yet. So my
YouTube algorithm is chock fullof this stuff. And I'm realizing
how toxic it might be actually,because it's just white walled
sparsely furnished homes.
(13:03):
decluttering, or purging videospurging. That's the other thing
that firms all over the place.
The minimalistuse order term. Yes.
And it's everywhere. Yeah. And Idevour this content. And I'm
realizing maybe I shouldn't, orat least less
well, does it make you feel bad?
Because that's the thing.
(13:24):
Yeah, totally. It makes me feellike my house is not even
remotely good enough.
Right. Minimalism is the newthin. You can never be Senator,
Ithink so. You can never have too
few things. Like there's onewoman I don't remember her name
on YouTube. But I follow. Idon't actually follow her. She
just popped up because that's myalgorithm. And she has rooms
with like, one piece offurniture and she's a mom. I'm
(13:47):
like, What am I doing wrong?
Like, holy shit ball. I'm like,I'm doing something very wrong.
It's like people who? I don'tknow. That's like, Is your house
staged for sale? Or do you live?
Right?
Right?
I don't. Yeah.
I mean, in her mind, she livesthere. She just has four things,
(14:07):
you know? I don't know. It'sit's extreme. It's really
extreme.
I mean, it is like the FightClub saying the things you own
end up owning you. Right? That'syeah.
And yeah, I think that's theidea. And everybody who's really
extreme about it says that it'smade them happier. And I'm not
saying they're wrong. So Ido know that like, when I have
more space, like, your mind isbetter. Like when there's less
(14:29):
and less like the closet behindme. That should be my podcasting
studio is just chock full oflike, stuff. I don't know how to
organize and it does, it givesme you know, anxiety.
Yeah, yeah. And we're gonna getinto a little bit of that when
we talk about hoarding disorder.
But, but it Okay, so that's likenew minimalism. were you gonna
(14:49):
say something? Well, I'mjust sorry. I'm just musing. I
know just to me. No, I love it.
That's why I was so excited toWell, I was talking with someone
about how I kind of romanticizea vow of poverty. Like you have
saidthat actually on the podcast
before Yeah,I find it very, like yeah, don't
need more stuff don't need moremoney, like my life is. Life is
(15:10):
about the relationships we have.
Not the accumulation of things.
And but that's not whatminimalism is. New minimalism is
a show of display of wealth.
into it in this sense. I'mtrying to think it can be Yeah,
(15:32):
I don't think it's always asymbol. Total. Oh, 1,000%. Yeah.
I don't necessarily Well, yeah,I guess everything's about
wealth in the end, right.
Well, in our society, yeah. Yes.
Just why so idolize poverty, notYeah, well, already. The, the
choice to live with less Iadmire, but not if it's to look
(15:54):
better to the Joneses.
Yeah. And I was gonna say like,it takes privilege to be able to
not be forced into a situationwhere you have to live with
less, right. Like, that's a verydifferent scenario.
Yeah. It's like those lists ofthings that are are cool if
(16:16):
you're rich, but not if you'repoor. And it's like, doing drugs
and public drinking in public.
Yes. Having nothing in yourhouse. Cool. Yeah. Rich. Not if
you're poor.
Oh, my god. It's so true. Yeah.
Yeah. And it's like a vow ofpoverty. People who are
impoverished certainly wouldn't.
Yeah, wish that on anyone else?
(16:36):
Exactly. Um, yeah. And I, forme, it's the vow of poverty is,
if you well, and that gets intolike, extreme altruism, which is
something I'm very interestedin, but like, you have enough
and so what you deal with yourextra is you give it to people
who need it. Right. Like, Ibelieve in that. Yes. I love it.
Yeah. But yeah, that's, that'sdifferent than just being a
(16:59):
minimalist. Okay.
Yeah. And so I found I'll getinto it a little bit, because I
found a lot of differences inthe mentality of the other
options, like, I'm trying tothink where I get into that a
little bit later where I comparethem, but I do have a little bit
(17:21):
about the Buy Nothing projectand how it's different than what
the minimalists are selling. So,which is so funny. minimalists
are selling jewelry, you justsaid it? Why No, right? It's
buying nothing, right? Oh, whatis oh, how much does it cost
they are withoutI will tell you even more how
they're selling it. And it'sreally frustrating. So I've
already I know, I know. I'm gladI knew you would be. So the Buy
(17:45):
Nothing project focuses oncommunity and they focus on
environmental impact. So it wasstarted by two friends named
Liezel Clark and RebeccaRockefeller, after they
discovered that their localbeach was littered with plastic
and other trash. So they justcreated one by nothing group in
their area. And now today, theyhave 7000 of them, or more, more
(18:08):
than 7000. And they're basicallygroups that you can sign in. You
can join on Facebook, they'reonly on Facebook, right?
As as far as I know. Yeah,I think they are. And people
basically swap items that theyno longer find useful. And
(18:29):
there's never a charge. There'snever any expectations. And it's
just because you want to give itaway and you want somebody else
to find use out of it. And thebiggest takeaway from their book
is this idea of refusing. Sothey say that's what's missing
and the Reduce Reuse recycle isrefusing to buy stuff or
(18:50):
refusing. I've heard otherpeople say like refusing to take
plastic silverware from a fastfood place or refusing to
consume in whatever way thatmeans. Okay? And they even say
their themselves. It's not anexercise in perfection, self
denial, or Abnegation. There'sno way to fail at the Buy
(19:11):
Nothing movement. It's meant tobe explored in your life. And
they found one thing they foundto be true is that being knit
into a local web of sharing inwhich we play a vital role is
more fulfilling than a thelonely hoarding of our stuff.
For our private use. Oh, and Iwould argue the lonely lack of
(19:32):
stuff. Yes.
private use. Yes, yes. Okay. Um,well, just the general loss of
community that we have this caton a soapbox but in a in a world
where everything is catered toyou individually, your Facebook
algorithm, your, you know, TVshows, everything is catered
(19:55):
directly to you and we've lostthe sense of community and so
it's like all the stuff you buyis just so uncommunicative
minded, even if it's minimalist,yes. This this the loneliness of
our current cultural status andthat I yeah, I love the Buy
Nothing group for that. Yes.
And the funny thing is, younever know what people will want
(20:20):
until you offer it. So I, theywon't let me on my local Buy
Nothing group because I don'tknow my address doesn't fit with
any of them. But I'm onFreecycle. And our freecycle is
really active. And I sawsomebody snatch up 30 paper
bags, like, like that, like,quickly. This is exactly one
woman's trash is another woman'streasure.
It is so true. Yeah. So we'regonna get into a little bit more
(20:46):
about that their responsebecause it just gets more
frustrating.
But okay, let me know whenthere's something dramatic
because I might have the rightsound effect. Perfect.
But first, I wanted to look atminimalism a little bit in the
same way as we look at othersystems. Okay, we've analyzed so
what is it? Is it easy toaccomplish as my next question,
(21:09):
okay. I have to focus on theminimalists because I have to
focus on something right. Andthey're just so big. It's such
an amorphous it is yet. So theyhave a 30 day minimalism game.
That's what they call it. Okay,where you get rid of, it's
basically like, a challenge. Andyou get rid of one thing on the
(21:33):
first day of the month, twothings on the second day, three
things on the third, so forthand so on. They say whether you
donate sell, or trash yourexcess, every material
possession must be out of yourhouse and out of your life by
midnight each day. Okay.
(22:06):
So when we're talking solelyabout ease, that takes a ton of
time and energy, you need aa month off to do that. Yes.
That's not just coming home fromwork and you have an hour and
you know, after the kids asleep,exactly, yeah, high pressure.
And it prioritizes getting stuffout rather than getting stuff
(22:28):
out responsibly.
Okay, fair, which we are notinto for the record, right.
So that's the big differencebetween the minimalists and the
Buy Nothing project. Because theBuy Nothing project is very much
about make sure your stuffdoesn't end up in the landfill
(22:48):
or on the beaches or whatever.
Yeah. So they are also from whatI could gather there. They're
very contradictory and hard tofollow. So let's go. Let's take
a little trip back to thatlistener question in the podcast
episode. Okay. So the originallistener said in order. She
(23:09):
said, You know, I like I heardabout the BI nothing movement, I
like it. But I have one problemin order to fix things. And in
order for you to get someoneelse's stuff. Now you're keeping
stuff. It goes back to how youguys say, the just in case
items. Yep. I'm gonna get intothe just in case items,
(23:32):
exactly what they are, becauseit's all my Halloween costumes.
Yes, I mean, you can kind ofguess, right? It's like, you're
keeping them just in case but soOkay, Joshua's response. Again,
he hasn't read the Buy Nothingbook, but he's very familiar
with by nothing groups. And thenhe I have so much sass right
(23:55):
now, but I don't think here. I'monly using what he said himself.
Then he proceeded to advertisehis own minimalist Facebook
groups. I think they'reFacebook, as if they were the
same. And they are not knowthese minimalist groups are like
meetups. They have no similaritywhatsoever. But he advertised
(24:16):
them anyway. As if, anyway. Sothen he talks about the like,
spiel about the inharmoniousoutcomes. Then he says that
their version of minimalism isnot prescriptive. And he
compares it to buy nothing.
Where he found he I think he dida Google search and he found a
(24:37):
list of 50 items. You never needto buy like Ziploc bags and
paper towels. He says, quote,I'm already out then because I
buy those things. And I don'tthink you're evil if you use
those things.
Okay. No one said you wereyou the Buy Nothing group is all
about like whatever you can do.
(24:59):
Do You know, not like, yes.
Well, he's totally taken. He'sjust villainizing it. Yes. For
his. Butthen at the next breath, he'll
say he is like, okay. Yeah, hesays he's, he likes it. And he
likes him. But then he says allthis other stuff. So he doesn't
like it's just crazy. And then Ithink it was either him, or TK,
his host or co host who saysyou're not allowed to buy? Like
(25:24):
nobody says you're not allowed,just so you don't need them.
Yeah. And then. So keep in mind,they just said that their
minimalism is not prescriptive.
And then and then almost thenext breath, they're pushing
their minimalist rulebook. Yeah,that's the one I downloaded.
Yeah.
(25:45):
It's not prescriptive at all. SoRomans 16 rules. Oh, my God.
And, and in the rulebook, itsays, rules can be arbitrary,
restrictive, boring, but theyare often helpful when we hope
to make a change. So I'm like,What are you doing if you're
making rules and prescriptionsare the same goddamn thing?
Right? So, sidenote, his cohost, TK Coleman is much more
(26:08):
reasonable toward the end. SoI'm not throwing him under the
same bus. But okay. I sat fordays with this, because I was
like, How do I process all ofthis, and I want to give him
grace. I'm angry, but I want togive him some grace. Because I
think he got defensive. And Isee this mostly in privileged
(26:32):
men. Sorry, not sorry. But it'strue. And it reminded me of when
I used to mention in, incollege, I went through a
vegetarian phase. And I used tomention to some guys, this
happened multiple times thatjust say that I was a
vegetarian, right? And theywould actually yell at me about
(26:52):
why they eat meat. And I waslike, I didn't say shit about
what you're doing. All I saidwas rise what I do, yes.
And they would yell, activelyyell at me. And it's like, no
one's attacking, you just shutup. Like, right? So either he
(27:14):
thinks of by nothing as acompetitor, which like you said,
probably. Or he feels guiltyabout his lack of thinking of
the sustainability of hisprescriptions.
It's just this like, threat thatif anybody else is doing
something, we can't collaborate,we have to be on top. You know,
I hate it so much. It's eithermy way or the highway. Yeah.
(27:35):
Yeah. And it's like I get I canonly imagine the women who made
the Buy Nothing projectlistening to the episode and be
like, What the fuck like?
Yeah, I wouldbe upset if I was them. No. So
because of that, I was like, Ishould look at like Swedish
(27:56):
death cleaning real quick, andjust get like a quick comparison
on how because everybody'stalking about Swedish death
cleaning. And it's such a catchyname that I'm like, What is
this? This is so interesting.
And they are very different.
This was also started by awoman. And I'm not trying to
gender eyes, this stuff. But itdoes seem very, very clear. I'm
also started by a woman. And shebasically just wanted to think
(28:24):
about her heirs, like her kidsin regard to her stuff. Yeah.
And so the idea is, you gothrough every single thing you
own, and you think, and youdon't have to be old to do this.
But you think, oh, yeah, I mean,I've watched people on YouTube
who are young, and they're like,oh, that's actually really cool.
Yeah, but you ask yourself,would somebody really want this
(28:47):
after you die? Or are youburdening them with getting rid
of it? And yeah, and so and thenyou also continue on by asking
yourself what life would be likeliving with this thing before
you buy it. So it kind ofhelped. It's supposed to help
you stop buying a bunch of shittoo. And the woman who started
it, her name is MargaritaMagnuson, and she says there's
(29:12):
no rush. The more time you spendgoing through your belongings,
the easier it will get. Thearticle says it's a reflection,
not a weekend affair. And herreaders often just think on one
object today, and then soon,everything's either gone, given
away or kept. So the binarything project Swedish death,
(29:34):
cleaning and even Marie Kondoare much more chill in their
approach. And they're also in myopinion, more outwardly focused
so on their community on theirloved ones on the environment,
rather than inward and on yourpersonal space, which I much
prefer the outward one.
Yeah. Communal view.
(29:55):
Yes. Yeah. So that I just had todo Talk about that, because it's
like, it doesn't even. That'snot even really like a
sustainability thing. It's justlike, This is what's out there.
And I had to just get off mychest because I was gonna lose
my frickin mind. But it is Ithink it is related to say
sustainability, because, yeah, Ithink they, in their minds
(30:17):
probably think that they'rebeing more sustainable, but
we're gonna get into like, whythey might not be. So real
quick. Does minimalism work?
That's something I can't saythat definitively because it's
personal. And it can help peoplebecome more intentional about
the items they keep buy andconsume. That is true. Yeah. But
that's not quantifiable.
(30:40):
Exactly. And it just really, whothe hell knows? Right? Yeah.
Because it can also be a trendthat people try on for a month,
and then forget about, right,which I think is probably more
common than people who are goingdown, getting down to like, one
piece of furniture per room,right?
Doesn't sound like I mean, froma different definition of
(31:00):
sustainable. That doesn't soundsustainable to me.
So yeah, exactly. I mean, somepeople said, it is I don't know.
Okay. So it also could be achicken and egg scenario. So I
looked into a little bit abouthoarding disorder and like
stress and clutter. Yeah. Sostudies show that clutter can
(31:21):
induce stress, but perhapsstress also induces clutter.
I live that. Yes, yes,me too. So the International
Journal of cognitive therapysays that there is a potential
link between traumatic lifeevents and hoarding disorder,
obviously, that's on the moreextreme end. But I think, you
(31:42):
know, all of us can relate. Andthe other one, the next one is
really interesting, because I'mlike, This is me, this is my
life, environmental environmentand behavior, had a study about
Office clutter, and they said,the most emotionally and
physically drained employees arethe most likely to build up
(32:03):
office clutter.
I got it. I mean, yes. Just,I've been there. I want it to be
just because you don't have theenergy to get rid of shit.
Exactly. Actually, you're notintentionally hoarding. It's
just like, I don't have thebandwidth to decide if I need
this or not, or to just throwaway my mail or like, the worse
(32:26):
off my mental state is, theharder it is for me to clean up
after myself. Oh,app. So lately, and I think it's
just like, that's a, you know,that's a sign of just a very
stressed out society. So maybeit's an NIH study that I looked
at says approximately two thirdsof individuals with hoarding
disorder meet criteria for COmorbid mood or anxiety disorder.
(32:50):
I buy it. Yeah. So it's like,not necessarily. Yes, it is
true, that clutter can causestress. But how does like how
much have we thought about theopposite? Right, right.
It's that it's not that thatmakes perfect sense. To me. I
feel like you just saidsomething that I've always
(33:10):
thought is, are the people thatI have known were hoarders were
people who were clinicallydepressed? Yes. You know,
absolutely. And then not gettinghelp. Yeah, and giving these
folks 16 rules to live by andsaying, throw out all your shit
and then buy less is not goingto be effective.
Now, that is not mental health.
That is not therapy.
That is Yeah. So it's like maybethe stuff which is very much the
(33:33):
mental illness. They're, they'refiguring out the stuff, but
like, maybe the stuff isn't theproblem. Maybe it's the society.
And I've heard, like, I thinkI've heard that hoarding
disorders getting worse, where,especially in older, older
generation, yes. There's like,people are hurting themselves
(33:55):
and having to call, I don'tknow, it's kind of scary being
over.
So I mean, I've had people Iknow with close family members,
and I mean, we had one greataunt, not my great aunt, but a
friend of mine, who looked likeshe was coming out of her house
in a normal way. And when shepassed away, it was like, stacks
(34:16):
of newspapers and things thatyou had to get around in the
house and her toilet had stoppedworking. And she was pooping in
plastic bags and keeping it inthe shower. Oh, my God, because
she was too embarrassed to letsomebody in to fix her toilet.
Oh my god, that's so sad. Noone knew, you know, she's living
in squalor. I had friendsparents who Yeah, it's just
(34:39):
yeah, I mean, I grew up aroundhoarding situations and it is
like very, very, very, very,very stressful.
Yeah. Yeah. Andokay, leading right into it. Why
do we hate hoarding so much? Ifound this because it really is
like there's a show hoarders.
(34:59):
It's like a There's so muchpublic shame around it. Yes. So
JSTOR daily, I guess they havesort of this article thing. But
yeah, they say, this was reallyinteresting because they said
that several scholars havesuggested that hoarding hits a
little too close to home. Andthat's why we hate it so much.
Yeah. So we all day, there's aquote, we all do daily battle
(35:20):
against an excess of stuff, itflows into our homes brought by
FedEx, and the US Postal Servicesnagged on Amazon, Facebook
marketplace, freecycle. Or ayard sale, inherited or handed
down, it piles up in closets,basements, and garages. And,
like, this is so true. And it'sso personal for me because I
(35:41):
grew up around it. And I likehave to find a way to balance my
balance the uncontrolled intakeof stuff versus and obsession
with being clutter free. Likeyeah, there's gotta be some
balance there not a binaryYeah, because there is something
(36:10):
very sick about it's kind oflike binge eating versus
anorexia.
I know there are a lot ofparallels.
Yeah, it's the same coin. Right?
It's two sides of the same coin.
It's this discomfort with ourlifestyle or our
success of any sort. Yeah.
(36:32):
Or this lack of control? Yes.
And you can be, you know,sometimes you fix it by buying
more stuff. And sometimes youfix it by getting rid of
everything. Yes. And it's thesame as the issue is the sitting
with this, I have no controlover climate change. I have no
control over critical situation.
I have no control over COVID-19I have no control over mass
(36:55):
shooters coming into public. Youknow, like, all these things are
wildfires. All this news we getall the time about our lives.
And it's like, two ways to fixit. I can either buy everything
I possibly can or I can get ridof everything. You know, it's
like the CM impulse. Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah. And I definitely strugglewith it. So
much percent of you retail do ishuge for me. Yeah.
(37:19):
Yeah. So is alright. So the nextquestion is minimalism.
Affordable.
Okay, this is funny. It shouldbe right, like you think,
right. And actually, this is onearea where I do think it shines.
Because state the obvious,buying less stuff should save
you a lot of money. Yeah. And sothe stuff you do buy might be
(37:43):
more expensive, because the ideais to buy better and buy less,
right, less. But over time, andyou know, that would discount a
lot of people from being able toeven take part in minimalism
because they're like, I can'tafford a $200 pair of jeans. Oh,
Mike. So, you know, in theory,if you can afford it, your stuff
(38:06):
is more durable, and it willlast longer than cheapo items.
But for some people that's justoff to the off the
table. Same with fast fashion,you know, and I realized that
after, and I want to apologizeto people like sometimes you
just can't afford anything butthe $2 shirt. Right? You know,
and I totally get that. And itis like we have all these things
(38:30):
about Yeah, you should buy moreexpensive stuff less often. But
unless you have that $200 upfront. Yes, you can't. You can't
do bulk food shopping. You can'tdo.
Yeah, we're not out here. Yeah,we're not like saying, Oh, just
put it on a credit card orsomething. Right. Like, that's
all? Yeah,no, I totally because I have the
same thing. I have like junkfurniture, and it's because I
(38:52):
couldn't afford nice stuff. Youknow, and I'm gonna have to get
rid of it sooner, but it's justlike, I just didn't have the
scratch. You know? Yes. So Idon't I think I talked about
that a little bit too privilegedwhen I talked about fast
fashion. Yes. Somebody? Yeah.
You can't buy the more expensivestuff. Right. You know, yeah. I
(39:13):
was talking about the excessiveneed to buy too much, though.
That's right. For me. Yeah.
I think trends are the bigthing. Yeah. And plus, another
thing about minimalism onYouTube is like a lot of people
buy all the fancy organizers.
And so like, yeah,that's my condo sells more shit,
you know? Yeah. Well, MarieKondo
(39:35):
is actually pretty good abouttelling people to use boxes that
they already have, but I thinkmost people don't do it that
way. But then you see YouTubeand it's like, holy shit. Like,
you're gonna go out and buy300 400 500 more or more dollars
worth of organizers. Yeah, it'sall over the place. So in that
(39:56):
sense, no, it's not moreaffordable. You don't need all
those organizers. There's butbut yeah. I remember when I was
like just out of college, livingwith my first boyfriend and we
were pretty poor. And I waslike, I need to organize this
stuff in the bathroom and I tookconstruction paper, and I glued
it on to like cardboard boxesand made organizers in our
(40:17):
bedroom for free.
Exactly. I love craft paper andsome like little string and all
tie. I make my own labels andstuff like that.
Yeah. And it looks good. Yeah.
Good enough.
Good enough.
Nobody's coming in to photographmy home country living is not in
(40:37):
my home.
Hopefully they never will beokay, I. Alright, so now let's
get into the meat of it. Right?
So is minimalism eco friendly orbecause there is no such thing
as eco friendly. Anything you dois going to be disruptive and
satisfyingon this planet is just Yes,
yeah. Yeah. And that's your listof stressors that makes you buy
(40:58):
more stuff. Yeah.
No. But eco friendly. Are therethings that you can do to be
much friendlier? So is it notnecessarily. Okay, I read this
really good blog by the plain,simple life. And she says
minimalists don't necessarilyfocus on being environmentally
(41:20):
positive. They may focus more onliving a simple life, which I
think is what we've seen, withless, less clutter and less
stress. Yeah. And then theminimalists themselves, say,
like I mentioned, they say youcan donate, sell, recycle. Trash
your excess. Like, theybasically say, like, Whatever
(41:42):
you do, just get it out. Right.
And they also say being aminimalist doesn't mean you'll
never buy anything new, it meansyou'll do so with intention. It
also means you'll let goaggressively and deliberately.
So this just reminds me of mygoodwill story about my pasta
maker that I told earlier inthis season, where I just I
(42:06):
think I had been watching theseYouTube videos, and I felt
rushed and pressured to make aperfectly clean house today, or
it's not worth bothering. And soI took my pasta maker to
Goodwill and now it's in twoparts in a landfill like That
much is obvious. That's justobvious to me that that's where
it went. So I mean, ideally, youwould buy less stuff, right? But
(42:30):
if you're also anti Buy Nothingmovement, and I'm not really
sure how that works out. Right.
So I do have somerecommendations going forward.
But first, I want to get into mygranola rating. Okay, okay. So
(42:50):
so i had to rate a specificthing, so I'm reading the
minimalists. How would youdescribe it their movement? Yes,
sir. If so, their movement?
Yeah. I'm writing them on theirsustainability. Our granola
rating is one through five. Oneis soggy granola, which is
(43:13):
gross. Five is break your toothoff super, super crunchy
granola, which is delicious.
Right? So the minimal theminimalists themselves, I am
reading them to two out of fiveand I'm trying to not be Teddy.
(43:37):
Is that petty? No, because Ithink they're selling an idea.
But they're from from ourstandpoint, the sustainability
isn't there. Right? It's yeah,that's not the focus, right?
It's it's not it's not with aneye towards eco friendliness.
(43:58):
Right. It's really just like,get rid of your shit. Yeah. And
a lot of people say, Oh, if youcan't sell it in a week, this
isn't them. But other people. Ifyou can't, I actually might be.
I don't remember I did a lot ofresearch, but it sounds like you
read a lot. Yeah, yeah. If youcan't sell it in a week, then
just donate it or get rid of it.
But it's like donating it toGoodwill is not necessarily the
right move, which we havelearned through trial
(44:23):
and error. So better better thanjust throwing it away. Probably.
But yeah, probably. Hopefullyfor my pasta maker, but we'll
see.
I hope someone figured that out.
I hope someone is sittingsomewhere in Baltimore right now
using your pasta.
No, I hope so. I've learned alot from that. So, yeah. So
(44:47):
going forward. There is aminimalism that focuses on the
environment, and that is calledEco minimalism. Okay, so the
plain simple life says ecominimal ism is a term used to
describe someone who has adoptedthe simple sustainable lifestyle
of consuming only what theyneed. The idea is that by
(45:08):
limiting your materialpossessions to things you
actually use, you reduce thestrain on the environment. And
she says minimalism and ecominimalism can go hand in hand,
but many minimalists areinvolved. And many minimalists
are also environmentalists, butnot all of them have to be. So
that's why I was so confusedwhen I heard all this when I
(45:31):
listened to that podcastepisode, because I was like, but
I thought people cared aboutthe Earth. Right?
So there are a lot ofminimalist, who do but I don't.
And I'm not saying these twodudes don't care about the
Earth. I'm just saying it is nottheir focus. It's sort of like
an off off shoot perk is howthey talk about it. Okay, which
(45:52):
is very common with other thingstoo. But companies do it all the
time. Yeah. So I mentioned ShelBisley on YouTube. The Yep, she
spells her name in a hard way tosay but she talks about
decluttering sustainably. Shehas one video about decluttering
(46:13):
sustainably, it was really good.
She had like, I think like 50ideas. And I wrote down 15. But
it's like, I don't even know ifI can get through all those
because it's like so many. Butyeah, there's sell or list as
many things as you can. People.
Her idea was if people arebuying stuff, or even if they're
going out of their way to get itfor free, they're probably gonna
(46:35):
value it a lot more. And I agreewith that. Give it to friends
and family who actually want it.
Used by nothing groups arefreecycle. eBay has local
listings, and you can list itfor free or you can try to sell
it. You can host to Oh, yeah,yep. You can host a swap party,
or having have a moving sale. Orgive your formalwear to
(47:00):
nonprofits. There are specificplaces that you can give bras or
towels like towels can go tolocal animal shelters if they
need them. Backpacks can go togive a kid a backpack. Mascara
can go to ones for wildlife.
I don't know. Yes. That's aclean ducks and stuff with it.
(47:21):
Yes, I didn't know that. And itgoes on and on. Like the list is
huge. And it's a reallycomprehensive list. But like,
oh, my god, is that a lot ofwork? Yeah, that's like, Man, I
feel like that'd be a full timejob. Yeah. And not to mention
none of that melds with theminimalists. Right. So now
(47:44):
everything is one of the rulesfor the minimalist everything in
its place. But what if it'splaced is in a pile in the trunk
of your car until you finallyremember to take it to the
little free library? Right?
Yeah. Or like, it just has tosit there until you can manage
to take it to wherever?
Yeah, and I mean, I havedefinitely had, like bags of
clothing in my trunk for monthsto take. Yes. Yes.
(48:07):
Exactly. And, or even just likestoring something until your
friend can pick it up a monthlater, or whatever. Like nothing
like that doesn't go withminimalism in the minimalists
sense at all. No. So, yeah, andalso like, My Lord, is that a
lot of time and resources? So Ilove the ideas, but it is. I
(48:30):
feel like we need I mean,Redwall is a really good
solution, I think. Yeah. Butthat's more for trash. So it's
more like, yeah, it's hard. Idon't know. They do. They
probably do stuff like ones forwildlife. Mascara is a trash
thing. But yeah, we need anotherread will like company that
(48:51):
handles backpacks to give back,give a kid a backpack and takes
the towels to a local animalshelter. That type of thing.
Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that'sthe thing. I mean, maybe that's
a business idea somebody herecan listen to it's like, yes,
your donation.
Yeah, cuz you can do bulk like,Salvation Army or whatever. But
a lot of times, I think it's waymore effective. If you give like
(49:14):
a mascara wand to a place it'sdefinitely you can't give it you
can't give an old mascara one toSalvation
Army. So gross. Yeah. That'strash. Yeah, but yeah.
But yeah, that's, that's all Ihave. But I know it was a lot. I
was like, really trying to getit in?
Well, I think I mean, it's sucha I think we had some really
important philosophicalconversations about Yes.
(49:36):
Consumerism in general, which iswhat this whole season has been
about is waste. And yes, humorism is what creates waste. So
like, the logical effects ofconsumerism, and and yes,
and it's just really interestingbecause so many people in the
world think minimalism is thesolution. It's like, well, maybe
it's more complicated than that.
Yeah.
(49:57):
No, totally. Well, oh boy.
Great. Yeah,but look up ego minimalism
because it's, it's prettyinteresting really promising. It
sounds like it just sounds likea really nice way to live. Yeah.
And that that makes me more insome way more inspired than just
doing it for myself. Yeah.
(50:19):
Personally, I love it.
Yeah. I'm so glad because I knewI was like, I can't wait to talk
to Ken aboutthat. I mean, it made it made me
download a new sound effect. SoI love it so much.
Awesome. Well, thank you that.
Thank you. Thank you forlistening. I can't believe I got
it in under an hour.
(50:39):
Yeah. Well, I was I justrealized this is the last
episode of the season.
Oh my gosh, you're right.
So Wow. Yeah, it's a good Imean, although I do think we
should do a bonus episode on whyour landfills bad because that's
something that came up to meover and over. And this is.
Yeah. Like, why are they bad?
Yes, so might be something we doa bonus episode on.
(51:02):
I love it. Yeah. Cuz like when Ifound out about composting and
why it's better. I was like,yeah, yeah. But I mean, we are
going to take what a month off.
So this will air September 19.
Are we going to take two weeksor a month?
A month? Yeah. And then. Sothat'll be what? October 17.
(51:24):
We'll be back right beforespooky season. We should do
something spooky.
I was thinking about that. Soit's our next season three is
supposed to be on personalitems. So we might do a
Halloween makeup one.
Okay, yeah. Well, well,we're Halloween costumes. Maybe?
Yeah, that Oh,that would be a good one.
Yes. I love it. Okay. So we'lldo that. But yeah, so yeah,
(51:47):
we're gonna be talking aboutfeminine products. Speaking of
being on your period, that's abig one that I'm really
interested in reusable. Mostlyperiod panties. So. Yes, and
menstrual cups, but I'm reallyinterested in the effects they
have on things. But yeah, sowe'll be back. Well, maybe
we'll, we'll see about thisbonus episode. It might be just
a 20 minute moral landfill's bedthat we put out in the next
(52:09):
couple of weeks. But thank youfor listening to us for season
two. I can't believe we made itthrough 21 This is episode 24.
Not counting many episodes. Andthat's
that is really exciting. I'm, Ithink I'm really proud of us
catch up to me too. Amazing.
Yeah. So we'll be back. What?
(52:30):
October 17?
Yeah. And so go into theholidays, so we can't wait.
Thank you. Thank you, thank youenjoy the rest of I guess when
this airs will be two days leftto summer. And then we're off
into the quote unquote, fallthough. It's still gonna be 100
degrees here in Austin. We justactually just Today is August
(52:51):
23. here that we're recordingthis we just broke yesterday. It
didn't get up to 100 for thefirst time in 44 days.
Oh, my God, I can't even like mybrain can't handle that.
It was 100 degrees or more. Itwas like 108 for a lot of those
days. So Wow. ThatJesus Christ. Yeah.
(53:13):
So hopefully, by the time wehear this again, it's like a
nice balmy 75. Yeah. But yeah, Ithink when a window, yeah, when
I go for walks in my car withoutdying. Right. But this is why we
do this, you know. Exactly. Callthe corporations that are this
(53:35):
is real. ruining our lives.
Yeah. Do I mean, it's great thatwe do individual contributions.
And I think we discovered theseason that the biggest things
you can do are quit buyingclothes and quit wasting food.
Those are using plastic andusing plastic. Those are like
the three biggest things thatyou can you can do. Some put
some mindfulness into and yes,help on an individual level. But
(53:58):
the rest of the time. It's,we've got to get corporations to
quit using plastic.
Yes. Producing which is achallenge. Yeah. So
thank you for that. We can doit. Yeah. Maybe we'll have a
season on local action orsomething.
Oh, I love that. I love the ideaof like, what can you actually
(54:18):
do like to influence in a biggerway than just? Yes. And
you're trying to do that? Yeah.
Yeah. More intention. So cool.
Thank you for listening to us.
Please rate us like us. Downloada subscribe. We don't know.
Right. It's an email. Follow.
Follow? Yeah, review. Yeah. Lotsof imperative verbs.
(54:41):
All right. We are excited fornext season, and have a good
month off. Yeah. Thank you.
Is minimalism eco friendlier, Iread this really good blog by
the plain simple life. And shesays minimalists don't
necessarily focus on beingenvironmentally positive. They
may focus more on living asimple life, which I think is
what we've seen, with less, lessclutter and less stress.
(00:26):
Hi, Tiffany, go inthe first day of my period, I
was like, should I share this?
Out? Let's share it's fine.
So I'm very sleep. But yeah,other than that, things are
(00:48):
good. Sothat you know, sometimes, I
don't know I don't I shouldprobably shouldn't go off on my
feminist rant about how weshould get time off periods.
Because I know that's acontentious matter. But, man,
man alive is right. Man isright. A
(01:09):
woman really likes women.
Truthfully. Yeah. Yeah. So eventhough I'm tired, I'm still
super excited about thisepisode. Because as I mentioned
at the end of last week'sepisode, this, we're talking
about minimalism, and I wantedto explore the sustainability of
(01:31):
minimalism because I think a lotof people talk about it. And if
you don't know what it is,that's okay, explain it. But
they talk about it as if it isautomatically more sustainable.
And to the things. I don't know,I just found i I'm shooting
more, so I'm going to shoot onit a little bit, but I'm
(01:55):
shooting more on one particularsubset of minimalism. And I came
into it, it just surprised mebecause I came into it very open
minded and actually appreciatingminimalism for a lot of things.
And I still do and yet, and yet,so we can't talk about
(02:15):
minimalism without talking aboutthe minimalists. Okay, do you
know Okay, possibly.
Okay, I hope I almost hope thatyou don't, but you probably baby
do so. They are two guys namedJoshua fields. Milburn is one
(02:39):
and Ryan Nicodemus is the other.
They're the Bife. Far, far andaway the most famous and most
influential minimalists outthere at the moment. They have
an Emmy non Emmy nominated adocumentary on Netflix. It's
called minimalism.
Have you seen it? Okay. No, Ihaven't. Okay, because I didn't
had I didn't know it was took Ithought minimalism was like, a
(03:02):
worldwide phenomenon, but it canbe attributed to two guys.
No, no, no. So I'm not sayingthat they invented it. Okay. But
they are the most influentialpeople who are shouting the
gospel of minimalism at themoment.
Evangelical minimalists.
One you have no idea howaccurate okay. Yes. So they
(03:30):
because my next bullet point isthat they remind me of
megachurch pastors.
Okay. All right. Yes.
And I don't mind I don't care ifyou go to church or whatever,
but don't preach at me. That'show I feel.
Um, so? Yeah, yeah. So like timehow to be
(03:52):
exactly. So I'm gonna start witha tidbit and then dive into it
after I cite my sources. So Iwent into this with a completely
open mind. I had watched theirdocumentary a couple of years
ago, and I really liked it,because it they were basically
just talking about howminimalism helped them. And I
(04:14):
don't know, I thought it was areally inspiring documentary.
And then I don't know ifsomething's changed, or if I've
changed or whatever. But Ilistened to the most recent
episode as of August 2023, whenwe're recording this, of the
minimalist podcast, which iswildly popular. And the most
(04:37):
recent episode I thought wasreally appropriate for the
topic. So they were answering alistener question about the by
nothing movement. Okay. Yes,yes. And caveat little side
note, the by nothing movement,and I'll get into it a little
bit more. We've talked about itsome but it started with an
(04:57):
environmental focus. Theminimalists did not. So that's
just a sort of laying thegroundwork. But there it was
Joshua, his response just wentoff the rails to the point that
I was like, Yes, I was justlike, what is happening and I'm
(05:21):
going to give you a little bitlittle tidbit of it right now.
Okay. So it was Joshua and hisco host, TK Coleman, they
started with a wild analysis ofthe book title The by nothing
that the two founders wrote. Theit's the book title is called
the Buy Nothing, get everythingplan, discover the joy of
(05:41):
spending less, sharing more andliving generously.
Oh, I can already see wherethey're gonna have a problem
with this. All soundslovely to me. But yeah, Joshua
says, quote, I want to give youa warning, that binary thinking
often leads to detrimentaloutcomes, in harmonious
outcomes. By nothing, geteverything when taken literally
(06:04):
means one thing. But when wetake it as a figurative stance,
or a new disposition on life canmean something completely
different. Okay? His co host TKsays when taken really
literally, it's scary. It'slike, Man, I didn't even pay for
this stuff. And now I got it.
(06:24):
Now I still gotta figure outwhat I'm going to do with it.
Then Joshua says, Buy Nothing.
You can even take thatliterally, can I go out and buy
something called nothing? Oh, mygosh, oh, wait a minute. And how
much does nothing cost? And ifyou buy nothing, and you get
everything, maybe I didn't wanteverything. But and then he
(06:48):
says, finishes his out finishesit out. But that is not the
spirit of this book.
Okay, so Okay.
And neither of them had read thebook, by the way. So they were
answering a listener questionabout this movement about this
book. And they had not even readthe book. They were just really
(07:11):
spitballin And I was so lost andimmediately put off by
Yeah, that sounds like somereligious hooey like it. Well,
we don't like this threat to ourway of life, which is, I don't
know. Well, I we haven't reallydiscussed what minimalism is.
But I'm guessing they don't likethe idea of more stuff. Period.
(07:33):
Right.
I think that's it. Yeah.
I buy nothing group would be allabout more stuff. But kind of,
but not really. I know. That's athing about that mean, I have so
frustrating. Yeah, the premiseof Buy Nothing is don't throw
stuff away. Give it to somebodywho can use it.
Yes. And don't buy new stuff.
Like I don't understand, whichseems
(07:56):
like it would be minimalism isbest friend. Exactly. That's why
I'm so confused whatreligions can have best friends
because right or not, right.
100%That's exactly what's happening.
Oh my gosh, yeah. So now I wantto answer is the lifestyle
advertised by the minimalists?
Sustainable? Okay, you're goingto find out and we're gonna
(08:20):
compare them to the Buy Nothingproject and also Swedish death
cleaning. I looked into a littlebit yeah,
there's so much in this episode.
Yeah, I didn't. I had to likecut down some because I didn't
want it to be 1000 years long.
But yeah, I wanted to cover allthat stuff. Because it's like
kind of all encompassingminimalism because there are 1
million ways you can go aboutit. So
(08:40):
well, unless you're these hostswho exactly they have gospel on
Yeah,you are going to just crapped
your pants again.
At the savings?
No. At the absurdity, okay. Somy sources, again, the Buy
(09:02):
Nothing get everything planbook, The minimalist podcast,
obviously. And I also,unfortunately, gave them my
email and downloaded one oftheir books.
Like an eBook, a fake email, oh,man. Well, I
needed to I wanted to read I hadto know what I was. I didn't
(09:23):
want to accuse them of somethingwithout really knowing like
them. You know, I wanted to bethe better woman so. So there
was a really good article on onmedium by this guy named Mike
Grendel. It's called thecommodification of minimalism.
And GIA Tolentino writes for TheNew Yorker and she wrote a
(09:45):
couple years ago the pitfallsand potential of new minimalism.
Then I looked into a couple ofstudies. So internet, the
International Journal ofcognitive therapy study the
environment and behavior therewas an environment and behavior
Study on Office clutter. JSTORdaily talks about hoarding
(10:05):
disorder. So I talk abouthoarding a little bit also okay.
Yeah, because it's obviouslythe, you know, suppose it
opposite. The blit plain, simplelife has a blog on eco
minimalism. And there's an inOh, there is also an NIH study
on hoarding disorder. Oh, andthen I found in Eco minimalist
(10:27):
on YouTube named shell Bisley.
It's spelled very confusingly,so I will link it, but she's got
some really cool. Really, like,really good videos. So okay. And
then finally, one source onSwedish death cleaning from the
Washington Post. Cool. So whatis minimalism? And why is it
(10:49):
interesting? Well, first, it ispopular AF. So the minimalist
podcast has over 100 milliondownloads. Oh my gosh, their
first Netflix documentary,minimalism has over 80 million
views. And, you know, MarieKondo is kind of like in that
vein, too, and she's incrediblyinfluential. She's obviously
(11:12):
doesn't isn't associated withthem, and I have completely
different feelings about her.
But, um, and to be clear, we'retalking about new minimalism.
This is something that has beenthat sort of how it's been
defined, because the idea ofliving with less has been around
for 1000s of years. You know,this is not new. We're talking
about with poverty, the Hmong.
Exactly, you know, exactly,yeah. So, if you want like a
(11:35):
definition, this might help youunderstand why this was a little
bit this actually was like quitehard to research. Because Mike
Grendel, the medium articlegives a really good definition.
Sometimes minimalism is framedas a reaction to consumerism.
(11:56):
Other times it's more aboutobjects, where we keep them how
they affect our moods, whetherthey spark joy. On other
occasions, minimalism ispresented as a kind of
productivity hack, as if it werea secret barrier between the
ultra rich and the disorganizedmasses.
Right. Okay. Which I love thatquote. Yeah.
(12:19):
So that's why it's it's verydifficult office.
Yeah, yes.
And so some people say like, ifone comes in one goes out. So if
you buy something, you have toget rid of something. That's
That'spretty. That's a big closet
thing people do. Yeah. Yeah. Forlike, if I buy a new dress, I
have to get rid of an old one.
(12:41):
Yeah, I don't do that. But don'tuse it.
I'm not a minimalist. I thinkpeople people do that yet. So my
YouTube algorithm is chock fullof this stuff. And I'm realizing
how toxic it might be actually,because it's just white walled
sparsely furnished homes.
(13:03):
decluttering, or purging videospurging. That's the other thing
that firms all over the place.
The minimalistuse order term. Yes.
And it's everywhere. Yeah. And Idevour this content. And I'm
realizing maybe I shouldn't, orat least less
well, does it make you feel bad?
Because that's the thing.
(13:24):
Yeah, totally. It makes me feellike my house is not even
remotely good enough.
Right. Minimalism is the newthin. You can never be Senator,
Ithink so. You can never have too
few things. Like there's onewoman I don't remember her name
on YouTube. But I follow. Idon't actually follow her. She
just popped up because that's myalgorithm. And she has rooms
with like, one piece offurniture and she's a mom. I'm
(13:47):
like, What am I doing wrong?
Like, holy shit ball. I'm like,I'm doing something very wrong.
It's like people who? I don'tknow. That's like, Is your house
staged for sale? Or do you live?
Right?
Right?
I don't. Yeah.
I mean, in her mind, she livesthere. She just has four things,
(14:07):
you know? I don't know. It'sit's extreme. It's really
extreme.
I mean, it is like the FightClub saying the things you own
end up owning you. Right? That'syeah.
And yeah, I think that's theidea. And everybody who's really
extreme about it says that it'smade them happier. And I'm not
saying they're wrong. So Ido know that like, when I have
more space, like, your mind isbetter. Like when there's less
(14:29):
and less like the closet behindme. That should be my podcasting
studio is just chock full oflike, stuff. I don't know how to
organize and it does, it givesme you know, anxiety.
Yeah, yeah. And we're gonna getinto a little bit of that when
we talk about hoarding disorder.
But, but it Okay, so that's likenew minimalism. were you gonna
(14:49):
say something? Well, I'mjust sorry. I'm just musing. I
know just to me. No, I love it.
That's why I was so excited toWell, I was talking with someone
about how I kind of romanticizea vow of poverty. Like you have
saidthat actually on the podcast
before Yeah,I find it very, like yeah, don't
need more stuff don't need moremoney, like my life is. Life is
(15:10):
about the relationships we have.
Not the accumulation of things.
And but that's not whatminimalism is. New minimalism is
a show of display of wealth.
into it in this sense. I'mtrying to think it can be Yeah,
(15:32):
I don't think it's always asymbol. Total. Oh, 1,000%. Yeah.
I don't necessarily Well, yeah,I guess everything's about
wealth in the end, right.
Well, in our society, yeah. Yes.
Just why so idolize poverty, notYeah, well, already. The, the
choice to live with less Iadmire, but not if it's to look
(15:54):
better to the Joneses.
Yeah. And I was gonna say like,it takes privilege to be able to
not be forced into a situationwhere you have to live with
less, right. Like, that's a verydifferent scenario.
Yeah. It's like those lists ofthings that are are cool if
(16:16):
you're rich, but not if you'repoor. And it's like, doing drugs
and public drinking in public.
Yes. Having nothing in yourhouse. Cool. Yeah. Rich. Not if
you're poor.
Oh, my god. It's so true. Yeah.
Yeah. And it's like a vow ofpoverty. People who are
impoverished certainly wouldn't.
Yeah, wish that on anyone else?
(16:36):
Exactly. Um, yeah. And I, forme, it's the vow of poverty is,
if you well, and that gets intolike, extreme altruism, which is
something I'm very interestedin, but like, you have enough
and so what you deal with yourextra is you give it to people
who need it. Right. Like, Ibelieve in that. Yes. I love it.
Yeah. But yeah, that's, that'sdifferent than just being a
(16:59):
minimalist. Okay.
Yeah. And so I found I'll getinto it a little bit, because I
found a lot of differences inthe mentality of the other
options, like, I'm trying tothink where I get into that a
little bit later where I comparethem, but I do have a little bit
(17:21):
about the Buy Nothing projectand how it's different than what
the minimalists are selling. So,which is so funny. minimalists
are selling jewelry, you justsaid it? Why No, right? It's
buying nothing, right? Oh, whatis oh, how much does it cost
they are withoutI will tell you even more how
they're selling it. And it'sreally frustrating. So I've
already I know, I know. I'm gladI knew you would be. So the Buy
(17:45):
Nothing project focuses oncommunity and they focus on
environmental impact. So it wasstarted by two friends named
Liezel Clark and RebeccaRockefeller, after they
discovered that their localbeach was littered with plastic
and other trash. So they justcreated one by nothing group in
their area. And now today, theyhave 7000 of them, or more, more
(18:08):
than 7000. And they're basicallygroups that you can sign in. You
can join on Facebook, they'reonly on Facebook, right?
As as far as I know. Yeah,I think they are. And people
basically swap items that theyno longer find useful. And
(18:29):
there's never a charge. There'snever any expectations. And it's
just because you want to give itaway and you want somebody else
to find use out of it. And thebiggest takeaway from their book
is this idea of refusing. Sothey say that's what's missing
and the Reduce Reuse recycle isrefusing to buy stuff or
(18:50):
refusing. I've heard otherpeople say like refusing to take
plastic silverware from a fastfood place or refusing to
consume in whatever way thatmeans. Okay? And they even say
their themselves. It's not anexercise in perfection, self
denial, or Abnegation. There'sno way to fail at the Buy
(19:11):
Nothing movement. It's meant tobe explored in your life. And
they found one thing they foundto be true is that being knit
into a local web of sharing inwhich we play a vital role is
more fulfilling than a thelonely hoarding of our stuff.
For our private use. Oh, and Iwould argue the lonely lack of
(19:32):
stuff. Yes.
private use. Yes, yes. Okay. Um,well, just the general loss of
community that we have this caton a soapbox but in a in a world
where everything is catered toyou individually, your Facebook
algorithm, your, you know, TVshows, everything is catered
(19:55):
directly to you and we've lostthe sense of community and so
it's like all the stuff you buyis just so uncommunicative
minded, even if it's minimalist,yes. This this the loneliness of
our current cultural status andthat I yeah, I love the Buy
Nothing group for that. Yes.
And the funny thing is, younever know what people will want
(20:20):
until you offer it. So I, theywon't let me on my local Buy
Nothing group because I don'tknow my address doesn't fit with
any of them. But I'm onFreecycle. And our freecycle is
really active. And I sawsomebody snatch up 30 paper
bags, like, like that, like,quickly. This is exactly one
woman's trash is another woman'streasure.
It is so true. Yeah. So we'regonna get into a little bit more
(20:46):
about that their responsebecause it just gets more
frustrating.
But okay, let me know whenthere's something dramatic
because I might have the rightsound effect. Perfect.
But first, I wanted to look atminimalism a little bit in the
same way as we look at othersystems. Okay, we've analyzed so
what is it? Is it easy toaccomplish as my next question,
(21:09):
okay. I have to focus on theminimalists because I have to
focus on something right. Andthey're just so big. It's such
an amorphous it is yet. So theyhave a 30 day minimalism game.
That's what they call it. Okay,where you get rid of, it's
basically like, a challenge. Andyou get rid of one thing on the
(21:33):
first day of the month, twothings on the second day, three
things on the third, so forthand so on. They say whether you
donate sell, or trash yourexcess, every material
possession must be out of yourhouse and out of your life by
midnight each day. Okay.
(22:06):
So when we're talking solelyabout ease, that takes a ton of
time and energy, you need aa month off to do that. Yes.
That's not just coming home fromwork and you have an hour and
you know, after the kids asleep,exactly, yeah, high pressure.
And it prioritizes getting stuffout rather than getting stuff
(22:28):
out responsibly.
Okay, fair, which we are notinto for the record, right.
So that's the big differencebetween the minimalists and the
Buy Nothing project. Because theBuy Nothing project is very much
about make sure your stuffdoesn't end up in the landfill
(22:48):
or on the beaches or whatever.
Yeah. So they are also from whatI could gather there. They're
very contradictory and hard tofollow. So let's go. Let's take
a little trip back to thatlistener question in the podcast
episode. Okay. So the originallistener said in order. She
(23:09):
said, You know, I like I heardabout the BI nothing movement, I
like it. But I have one problemin order to fix things. And in
order for you to get someoneelse's stuff. Now you're keeping
stuff. It goes back to how youguys say, the just in case
items. Yep. I'm gonna get intothe just in case items,
(23:32):
exactly what they are, becauseit's all my Halloween costumes.
Yes, I mean, you can kind ofguess, right? It's like, you're
keeping them just in case but soOkay, Joshua's response. Again,
he hasn't read the Buy Nothingbook, but he's very familiar
with by nothing groups. And thenhe I have so much sass right
(23:55):
now, but I don't think here. I'monly using what he said himself.
Then he proceeded to advertisehis own minimalist Facebook
groups. I think they'reFacebook, as if they were the
same. And they are not knowthese minimalist groups are like
meetups. They have no similaritywhatsoever. But he advertised
(24:16):
them anyway. As if, anyway. Sothen he talks about the like,
spiel about the inharmoniousoutcomes. Then he says that
their version of minimalism isnot prescriptive. And he
compares it to buy nothing.
Where he found he I think he dida Google search and he found a
(24:37):
list of 50 items. You never needto buy like Ziploc bags and
paper towels. He says, quote,I'm already out then because I
buy those things. And I don'tthink you're evil if you use
those things.
Okay. No one said you wereyou the Buy Nothing group is all
about like whatever you can do.
(24:59):
Do You know, not like, yes.
Well, he's totally taken. He'sjust villainizing it. Yes. For
his. Butthen at the next breath, he'll
say he is like, okay. Yeah, hesays he's, he likes it. And he
likes him. But then he says allthis other stuff. So he doesn't
like it's just crazy. And then Ithink it was either him, or TK,
his host or co host who saysyou're not allowed to buy? Like
(25:24):
nobody says you're not allowed,just so you don't need them.
Yeah. And then. So keep in mind,they just said that their
minimalism is not prescriptive.
And then and then almost thenext breath, they're pushing
their minimalist rulebook. Yeah,that's the one I downloaded.
Yeah.
(25:45):
It's not prescriptive at all. SoRomans 16 rules. Oh, my God.
And, and in the rulebook, itsays, rules can be arbitrary,
restrictive, boring, but theyare often helpful when we hope
to make a change. So I'm like,What are you doing if you're
making rules and prescriptionsare the same goddamn thing?
Right? So, sidenote, his cohost, TK Coleman is much more
(26:08):
reasonable toward the end. SoI'm not throwing him under the
same bus. But okay. I sat fordays with this, because I was
like, How do I process all ofthis, and I want to give him
grace. I'm angry, but I want togive him some grace. Because I
think he got defensive. And Isee this mostly in privileged
(26:32):
men. Sorry, not sorry. But it'strue. And it reminded me of when
I used to mention in, incollege, I went through a
vegetarian phase. And I used tomention to some guys, this
happened multiple times thatjust say that I was a
vegetarian, right? And theywould actually yell at me about
(26:52):
why they eat meat. And I waslike, I didn't say shit about
what you're doing. All I saidwas rise what I do, yes.
And they would yell, activelyyell at me. And it's like, no
one's attacking, you just shutup. Like, right? So either he
(27:14):
thinks of by nothing as acompetitor, which like you said,
probably. Or he feels guiltyabout his lack of thinking of
the sustainability of hisprescriptions.
It's just this like, threat thatif anybody else is doing
something, we can't collaborate,we have to be on top. You know,
I hate it so much. It's eithermy way or the highway. Yeah.
(27:35):
Yeah. And it's like I get I canonly imagine the women who made
the Buy Nothing projectlistening to the episode and be
like, What the fuck like?
Yeah, I wouldbe upset if I was them. No. So
because of that, I was like, Ishould look at like Swedish
(27:56):
death cleaning real quick, andjust get like a quick comparison
on how because everybody'stalking about Swedish death
cleaning. And it's such a catchyname that I'm like, What is
this? This is so interesting.
And they are very different.
This was also started by awoman. And I'm not trying to
gender eyes, this stuff. But itdoes seem very, very clear. I'm
also started by a woman. And shebasically just wanted to think
(28:24):
about her heirs, like her kidsin regard to her stuff. Yeah.
And so the idea is, you gothrough every single thing you
own, and you think, and youdon't have to be old to do this.
But you think, oh, yeah, I mean,I've watched people on YouTube
who are young, and they're like,oh, that's actually really cool.
Yeah, but you ask yourself,would somebody really want this
(28:47):
after you die? Or are youburdening them with getting rid
of it? And yeah, and so and thenyou also continue on by asking
yourself what life would be likeliving with this thing before
you buy it. So it kind ofhelped. It's supposed to help
you stop buying a bunch of shittoo. And the woman who started
it, her name is MargaritaMagnuson, and she says there's
(29:12):
no rush. The more time you spendgoing through your belongings,
the easier it will get. Thearticle says it's a reflection,
not a weekend affair. And herreaders often just think on one
object today, and then soon,everything's either gone, given
away or kept. So the binarything project Swedish death,
(29:34):
cleaning and even Marie Kondoare much more chill in their
approach. And they're also in myopinion, more outwardly focused
so on their community on theirloved ones on the environment,
rather than inward and on yourpersonal space, which I much
prefer the outward one.
Yeah. Communal view.
(29:55):
Yes. Yeah. So that I just had todo Talk about that, because it's
like, it doesn't even. That'snot even really like a
sustainability thing. It's justlike, This is what's out there.
And I had to just get off mychest because I was gonna lose
my frickin mind. But it is Ithink it is related to say
sustainability, because, yeah, Ithink they, in their minds
(30:17):
probably think that they'rebeing more sustainable, but
we're gonna get into like, whythey might not be. So real
quick. Does minimalism work?
That's something I can't saythat definitively because it's
personal. And it can help peoplebecome more intentional about
the items they keep buy andconsume. That is true. Yeah. But
that's not quantifiable.
(30:40):
Exactly. And it just really, whothe hell knows? Right? Yeah.
Because it can also be a trendthat people try on for a month,
and then forget about, right,which I think is probably more
common than people who are goingdown, getting down to like, one
piece of furniture per room,right?
Doesn't sound like I mean, froma different definition of
(31:00):
sustainable. That doesn't soundsustainable to me.
So yeah, exactly. I mean, somepeople said, it is I don't know.
Okay. So it also could be achicken and egg scenario. So I
looked into a little bit abouthoarding disorder and like
stress and clutter. Yeah. Sostudies show that clutter can
(31:21):
induce stress, but perhapsstress also induces clutter.
I live that. Yes, yes,me too. So the International
Journal of cognitive therapysays that there is a potential
link between traumatic lifeevents and hoarding disorder,
obviously, that's on the moreextreme end. But I think, you
(31:42):
know, all of us can relate. Andthe other one, the next one is
really interesting, because I'mlike, This is me, this is my
life, environmental environmentand behavior, had a study about
Office clutter, and they said,the most emotionally and
physically drained employees arethe most likely to build up
(32:03):
office clutter.
I got it. I mean, yes. Just,I've been there. I want it to be
just because you don't have theenergy to get rid of shit.
Exactly. Actually, you're notintentionally hoarding. It's
just like, I don't have thebandwidth to decide if I need
this or not, or to just throwaway my mail or like, the worse
(32:26):
off my mental state is, theharder it is for me to clean up
after myself. Oh,app. So lately, and I think it's
just like, that's a, you know,that's a sign of just a very
stressed out society. So maybeit's an NIH study that I looked
at says approximately two thirdsof individuals with hoarding
disorder meet criteria for COmorbid mood or anxiety disorder.
(32:50):
I buy it. Yeah. So it's like,not necessarily. Yes, it is
true, that clutter can causestress. But how does like how
much have we thought about theopposite? Right, right.
It's that it's not that thatmakes perfect sense. To me. I
feel like you just saidsomething that I've always
(33:10):
thought is, are the people thatI have known were hoarders were
people who were clinicallydepressed? Yes. You know,
absolutely. And then not gettinghelp. Yeah, and giving these
folks 16 rules to live by andsaying, throw out all your shit
and then buy less is not goingto be effective.
Now, that is not mental health.
That is not therapy.
That is Yeah. So it's like maybethe stuff which is very much the
(33:33):
mental illness. They're, they'refiguring out the stuff, but
like, maybe the stuff isn't theproblem. Maybe it's the society.
And I've heard, like, I thinkI've heard that hoarding
disorders getting worse, where,especially in older, older
generation, yes. There's like,people are hurting themselves
(33:55):
and having to call, I don'tknow, it's kind of scary being
over.
So I mean, I've had people Iknow with close family members,
and I mean, we had one greataunt, not my great aunt, but a
friend of mine, who looked likeshe was coming out of her house
in a normal way. And when shepassed away, it was like, stacks
(34:16):
of newspapers and things thatyou had to get around in the
house and her toilet had stoppedworking. And she was pooping in
plastic bags and keeping it inthe shower. Oh, my God, because
she was too embarrassed to letsomebody in to fix her toilet.
Oh my god, that's so sad. Noone knew, you know, she's living
in squalor. I had friendsparents who Yeah, it's just
(34:39):
yeah, I mean, I grew up aroundhoarding situations and it is
like very, very, very, very,very stressful.
Yeah. Yeah. Andokay, leading right into it. Why
do we hate hoarding so much? Ifound this because it really is
like there's a show hoarders.
(34:59):
It's like a There's so muchpublic shame around it. Yes. So
JSTOR daily, I guess they havesort of this article thing. But
yeah, they say, this was reallyinteresting because they said
that several scholars havesuggested that hoarding hits a
little too close to home. Andthat's why we hate it so much.
Yeah. So we all day, there's aquote, we all do daily battle
(35:20):
against an excess of stuff, itflows into our homes brought by
FedEx, and the US Postal Servicesnagged on Amazon, Facebook
marketplace, freecycle. Or ayard sale, inherited or handed
down, it piles up in closets,basements, and garages. And,
like, this is so true. And it'sso personal for me because I
(35:41):
grew up around it. And I likehave to find a way to balance my
balance the uncontrolled intakeof stuff versus and obsession
with being clutter free. Likeyeah, there's gotta be some
balance there not a binaryYeah, because there is something
(36:10):
very sick about it's kind oflike binge eating versus
anorexia.
I know there are a lot ofparallels.
Yeah, it's the same coin. Right?
It's two sides of the same coin.
It's this discomfort with ourlifestyle or our
success of any sort. Yeah.
(36:32):
Or this lack of control? Yes.
And you can be, you know,sometimes you fix it by buying
more stuff. And sometimes youfix it by getting rid of
everything. Yes. And it's thesame as the issue is the sitting
with this, I have no controlover climate change. I have no
control over critical situation.
I have no control over COVID-19I have no control over mass
(36:55):
shooters coming into public. Youknow, like, all these things are
wildfires. All this news we getall the time about our lives.
And it's like, two ways to fixit. I can either buy everything
I possibly can or I can get ridof everything. You know, it's
like the CM impulse. Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah. And I definitely strugglewith it. So
much percent of you retail do ishuge for me. Yeah.
(37:19):
Yeah. So is alright. So the nextquestion is minimalism.
Affordable.
Okay, this is funny. It shouldbe right, like you think,
right. And actually, this is onearea where I do think it shines.
Because state the obvious,buying less stuff should save
you a lot of money. Yeah. And sothe stuff you do buy might be
(37:43):
more expensive, because the ideais to buy better and buy less,
right, less. But over time, andyou know, that would discount a
lot of people from being able toeven take part in minimalism
because they're like, I can'tafford a $200 pair of jeans. Oh,
Mike. So, you know, in theory,if you can afford it, your stuff
(38:06):
is more durable, and it willlast longer than cheapo items.
But for some people that's justoff to the off the
table. Same with fast fashion,you know, and I realized that
after, and I want to apologizeto people like sometimes you
just can't afford anything butthe $2 shirt. Right? You know,
and I totally get that. And itis like we have all these things
(38:30):
about Yeah, you should buy moreexpensive stuff less often. But
unless you have that $200 upfront. Yes, you can't. You can't
do bulk food shopping. You can'tdo.
Yeah, we're not out here. Yeah,we're not like saying, Oh, just
put it on a credit card orsomething. Right. Like, that's
all? Yeah,no, I totally because I have the
same thing. I have like junkfurniture, and it's because I
(38:52):
couldn't afford nice stuff. Youknow, and I'm gonna have to get
rid of it sooner, but it's justlike, I just didn't have the
scratch. You know? Yes. So Idon't I think I talked about
that a little bit too privilegedwhen I talked about fast
fashion. Yes. Somebody? Yeah.
You can't buy the more expensivestuff. Right. You know, yeah. I
(39:13):
was talking about the excessiveneed to buy too much, though.
That's right. For me. Yeah.
I think trends are the bigthing. Yeah. And plus, another
thing about minimalism onYouTube is like a lot of people
buy all the fancy organizers.
And so like, yeah,that's my condo sells more shit,
you know? Yeah. Well, MarieKondo
(39:35):
is actually pretty good abouttelling people to use boxes that
they already have, but I thinkmost people don't do it that
way. But then you see YouTubeand it's like, holy shit. Like,
you're gonna go out and buy300 400 500 more or more dollars
worth of organizers. Yeah, it'sall over the place. So in that
(39:56):
sense, no, it's not moreaffordable. You don't need all
those organizers. There's butbut yeah. I remember when I was
like just out of college, livingwith my first boyfriend and we
were pretty poor. And I waslike, I need to organize this
stuff in the bathroom and I tookconstruction paper, and I glued
it on to like cardboard boxesand made organizers in our
(40:17):
bedroom for free.
Exactly. I love craft paper andsome like little string and all
tie. I make my own labels andstuff like that.
Yeah. And it looks good. Yeah.
Good enough.
Good enough.
Nobody's coming in to photographmy home country living is not in
(40:37):
my home.
Hopefully they never will beokay, I. Alright, so now let's
get into the meat of it. Right?
So is minimalism eco friendly orbecause there is no such thing
as eco friendly. Anything you dois going to be disruptive and
satisfyingon this planet is just Yes,
yeah. Yeah. And that's your listof stressors that makes you buy
(40:58):
more stuff. Yeah.
No. But eco friendly. Are therethings that you can do to be
much friendlier? So is it notnecessarily. Okay, I read this
really good blog by the plain,simple life. And she says
minimalists don't necessarilyfocus on being environmentally
(41:20):
positive. They may focus more onliving a simple life, which I
think is what we've seen, withless, less clutter and less
stress. Yeah. And then theminimalists themselves, say,
like I mentioned, they say youcan donate, sell, recycle. Trash
your excess. Like, theybasically say, like, Whatever
(41:42):
you do, just get it out. Right.
And they also say being aminimalist doesn't mean you'll
never buy anything new, it meansyou'll do so with intention. It
also means you'll let goaggressively and deliberately.
So this just reminds me of mygoodwill story about my pasta
maker that I told earlier inthis season, where I just I
(42:06):
think I had been watching theseYouTube videos, and I felt
rushed and pressured to make aperfectly clean house today, or
it's not worth bothering. And soI took my pasta maker to
Goodwill and now it's in twoparts in a landfill like That
much is obvious. That's justobvious to me that that's where
it went. So I mean, ideally, youwould buy less stuff, right? But
(42:30):
if you're also anti Buy Nothingmovement, and I'm not really
sure how that works out. Right.
So I do have somerecommendations going forward.
But first, I want to get into mygranola rating. Okay, okay. So
(42:50):
so i had to rate a specificthing, so I'm reading the
minimalists. How would youdescribe it their movement? Yes,
sir. If so, their movement?
Yeah. I'm writing them on theirsustainability. Our granola
rating is one through five. Oneis soggy granola, which is
(43:13):
gross. Five is break your toothoff super, super crunchy
granola, which is delicious.
Right? So the minimal theminimalists themselves, I am
reading them to two out of fiveand I'm trying to not be Teddy.
(43:37):
Is that petty? No, because Ithink they're selling an idea.
But they're from from ourstandpoint, the sustainability
isn't there. Right? It's yeah,that's not the focus, right?
It's it's not it's not with aneye towards eco friendliness.
(43:58):
Right. It's really just like,get rid of your shit. Yeah. And
a lot of people say, Oh, if youcan't sell it in a week, this
isn't them. But other people. Ifyou can't, I actually might be.
I don't remember I did a lot ofresearch, but it sounds like you
read a lot. Yeah, yeah. If youcan't sell it in a week, then
just donate it or get rid of it.
But it's like donating it toGoodwill is not necessarily the
right move, which we havelearned through trial
(44:23):
and error. So better better thanjust throwing it away. Probably.
But yeah, probably. Hopefullyfor my pasta maker, but we'll
see.
I hope someone figured that out.
I hope someone is sittingsomewhere in Baltimore right now
using your pasta.
No, I hope so. I've learned alot from that. So, yeah. So
(44:47):
going forward. There is aminimalism that focuses on the
environment, and that is calledEco minimalism. Okay, so the
plain simple life says ecominimal ism is a term used to
describe someone who has adoptedthe simple sustainable lifestyle
of consuming only what theyneed. The idea is that by
(45:08):
limiting your materialpossessions to things you
actually use, you reduce thestrain on the environment. And
she says minimalism and ecominimalism can go hand in hand,
but many minimalists areinvolved. And many minimalists
are also environmentalists, butnot all of them have to be. So
that's why I was so confusedwhen I heard all this when I
(45:31):
listened to that podcastepisode, because I was like, but
I thought people cared aboutthe Earth. Right?
So there are a lot ofminimalist, who do but I don't.
And I'm not saying these twodudes don't care about the
Earth. I'm just saying it is nottheir focus. It's sort of like
an off off shoot perk is howthey talk about it. Okay, which
(45:52):
is very common with other thingstoo. But companies do it all the
time. Yeah. So I mentioned ShelBisley on YouTube. The Yep, she
spells her name in a hard way tosay but she talks about
decluttering sustainably. Shehas one video about decluttering
(46:13):
sustainably, it was really good.
She had like, I think like 50ideas. And I wrote down 15. But
it's like, I don't even know ifI can get through all those
because it's like so many. Butyeah, there's sell or list as
many things as you can. People.
Her idea was if people arebuying stuff, or even if they're
going out of their way to get itfor free, they're probably gonna
(46:35):
value it a lot more. And I agreewith that. Give it to friends
and family who actually want it.
Used by nothing groups arefreecycle. eBay has local
listings, and you can list itfor free or you can try to sell
it. You can host to Oh, yeah,yep. You can host a swap party,
or having have a moving sale. Orgive your formalwear to
(47:00):
nonprofits. There are specificplaces that you can give bras or
towels like towels can go tolocal animal shelters if they
need them. Backpacks can go togive a kid a backpack. Mascara
can go to ones for wildlife.
I don't know. Yes. That's aclean ducks and stuff with it.
(47:21):
Yes, I didn't know that. And itgoes on and on. Like the list is
huge. And it's a reallycomprehensive list. But like,
oh, my god, is that a lot ofwork? Yeah, that's like, Man, I
feel like that'd be a full timejob. Yeah. And not to mention
none of that melds with theminimalists. Right. So now
(47:44):
everything is one of the rulesfor the minimalist everything in
its place. But what if it'splaced is in a pile in the trunk
of your car until you finallyremember to take it to the
little free library? Right?
Yeah. Or like, it just has tosit there until you can manage
to take it to wherever?
Yeah, and I mean, I havedefinitely had, like bags of
clothing in my trunk for monthsto take. Yes. Yes.
(48:07):
Exactly. And, or even just likestoring something until your
friend can pick it up a monthlater, or whatever. Like nothing
like that doesn't go withminimalism in the minimalists
sense at all. No. So, yeah, andalso like, My Lord, is that a
lot of time and resources? So Ilove the ideas, but it is. I
(48:30):
feel like we need I mean,Redwall is a really good
solution, I think. Yeah. Butthat's more for trash. So it's
more like, yeah, it's hard. Idon't know. They do. They
probably do stuff like ones forwildlife. Mascara is a trash
thing. But yeah, we need anotherread will like company that
(48:51):
handles backpacks to give back,give a kid a backpack and takes
the towels to a local animalshelter. That type of thing.
Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that'sthe thing. I mean, maybe that's
a business idea somebody herecan listen to it's like, yes,
your donation.
Yeah, cuz you can do bulk like,Salvation Army or whatever. But
a lot of times, I think it's waymore effective. If you give like
(49:14):
a mascara wand to a place it'sdefinitely you can't give it you
can't give an old mascara one toSalvation
Army. So gross. Yeah. That'strash. Yeah, but yeah.
But yeah, that's, that's all Ihave. But I know it was a lot. I
was like, really trying to getit in?
Well, I think I mean, it's sucha I think we had some really
important philosophicalconversations about Yes.
(49:36):
Consumerism in general, which iswhat this whole season has been
about is waste. And yes, humorism is what creates waste. So
like, the logical effects ofconsumerism, and and yes,
and it's just really interestingbecause so many people in the
world think minimalism is thesolution. It's like, well, maybe
it's more complicated than that.
Yeah.
(49:57):
No, totally. Well, oh boy.
Great. Yeah,but look up ego minimalism
because it's, it's prettyinteresting really promising. It
sounds like it just sounds likea really nice way to live. Yeah.
And that that makes me more insome way more inspired than just
doing it for myself. Yeah.
(50:19):
Personally, I love it.
Yeah. I'm so glad because I knewI was like, I can't wait to talk
to Ken aboutthat. I mean, it made it made me
download a new sound effect. SoI love it so much.
Awesome. Well, thank you that.
Thank you. Thank you forlistening. I can't believe I got
it in under an hour.
(50:39):
Yeah. Well, I was I justrealized this is the last
episode of the season.
Oh my gosh, you're right.
So Wow. Yeah, it's a good Imean, although I do think we
should do a bonus episode on whyour landfills bad because that's
something that came up to meover and over. And this is.
Yeah. Like, why are they bad?
Yes, so might be something we doa bonus episode on.
(51:02):
I love it. Yeah. Cuz like when Ifound out about composting and
why it's better. I was like,yeah, yeah. But I mean, we are
going to take what a month off.
So this will air September 19.
Are we going to take two weeksor a month?
A month? Yeah. And then. Sothat'll be what? October 17.
(51:24):
We'll be back right beforespooky season. We should do
something spooky.
I was thinking about that. Soit's our next season three is
supposed to be on personalitems. So we might do a
Halloween makeup one.
Okay, yeah. Well, well,we're Halloween costumes. Maybe?
Yeah, that Oh,that would be a good one.
Yes. I love it. Okay. So we'lldo that. But yeah, so yeah,
(51:47):
we're gonna be talking aboutfeminine products. Speaking of
being on your period, that's abig one that I'm really
interested in reusable. Mostlyperiod panties. So. Yes, and
menstrual cups, but I'm reallyinterested in the effects they
have on things. But yeah, sowe'll be back. Well, maybe
we'll, we'll see about thisbonus episode. It might be just
a 20 minute moral landfill's bedthat we put out in the next
(52:09):
couple of weeks. But thank youfor listening to us for season
two. I can't believe we made itthrough 21 This is episode 24.
Not counting many episodes. Andthat's
that is really exciting. I'm, Ithink I'm really proud of us
catch up to me too. Amazing.
Yeah. So we'll be back. What?
(52:30):
October 17?
Yeah. And so go into theholidays, so we can't wait.
Thank you. Thank you, thank youenjoy the rest of I guess when
this airs will be two days leftto summer. And then we're off
into the quote unquote, fallthough. It's still gonna be 100
degrees here in Austin. We justactually just Today is August
(52:51):
23. here that we're recordingthis we just broke yesterday. It
didn't get up to 100 for thefirst time in 44 days.
Oh, my God, I can't even like mybrain can't handle that.
It was 100 degrees or more. Itwas like 108 for a lot of those
days. So Wow. ThatJesus Christ. Yeah.
(53:13):
So hopefully, by the time wehear this again, it's like a
nice balmy 75. Yeah. But yeah, Ithink when a window, yeah, when
I go for walks in my car withoutdying. Right. But this is why we
do this, you know. Exactly. Callthe corporations that are this
(53:35):
is real. ruining our lives.
Yeah. Do I mean, it's great thatwe do individual contributions.
And I think we discovered theseason that the biggest things
you can do are quit buyingclothes and quit wasting food.
Those are using plastic andusing plastic. Those are like
the three biggest things thatyou can you can do. Some put
some mindfulness into and yes,help on an individual level. But
(53:58):
the rest of the time. It's,we've got to get corporations to
quit using plastic.
Yes. Producing which is achallenge. Yeah. So
thank you for that. We can doit. Yeah. Maybe we'll have a
season on local action orsomething.
Oh, I love that. I love the ideaof like, what can you actually
(54:18):
do like to influence in a biggerway than just? Yes. And
you're trying to do that? Yeah.
Yeah. More intention. So cool.
Thank you for listening to us.
Please rate us like us. Downloada subscribe. We don't know.
Right. It's an email. Follow.
Follow? Yeah, review. Yeah. Lotsof imperative verbs.
(54:41):
All right. We are excited fornext season, and have a good
month off. Yeah. Thank you.
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