August 1, 2023 • 54 mins
There's still hope, we promise! In part 2 of our exploration of the dim world of plastics recycling, you'll learn:
- Where we are today and how we got here
- Whether recycling plastic is worth it
- Three proposed solutions -- and why there's always hope
- And more!
Ride along with Tiff and Kat as we figure out whether or not plastics recycling is pure green hooey in this green living podcast.
Sources
- Greenpeace petition on international plastics treaty
- Scientific American on plastics treaty
- BBC
- The Week
- John Oliver's Last Week Tonight episode on plastics
- WasteDive on packaging legislation
- How to Give Up Plastic book
Patreon: patreon.com/greeningupmyact
Instagram: @greeningupmyact
Facebook: Greening Up My Act
Email us with questions: greeningupmyact@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
So people have said, like, oh,let's go back to how our
grandparents did it. And thatactually would solve our plastic
problem. And I do agree withthat, to a large extent tin cans
and glass bottles. Exactly.
However, do you think we canmanage going back to the good
parts of our grandparents life?
Because let's be honest, theyweren't all good. If women also
(00:25):
work outside the home, there isthere is my issue.
Hi, Tiffany. Hi, Kat. How areyou?
I'm fine. We chatted a littlebit about or a little bit before
the episode started. Someoneelse is there to say? Well, I
(00:47):
mean, I think we could just say,did you lose much sleep over
last week's plastic recyclingepisode, which we recorded
several weeks ago for therecord? Yeah, it was actually
like two weeks ago. Yeah.
1,000%. I did. Oh, my gosh, I'vebeen seeing it everywhere. I
like, schooled my parents on itthe other day. I was like, this
is awful level. Oh, like,they're like, Yeah, I know.
(01:11):
It's not a secret. You know,everybody knows this. It's just
Yeah, well, the funny thing is,I didn't know how bad it was,
right? I think it's like, it'sreally easy to hear stuff and be
like, oh, people might beexaggerating, or turn a blind
eye because it's like, I don'tknow, easier. Yeah, to just be
(01:32):
init. I mean, the American life is
based on complacency or busynessin your own specialized area so
much that you don't, you can'tconcentrate on other things that
are really big deals, you know,right. Now, I mean, we're
bombarded all the time with somuch information. In our media,
diet, culture, you know, that,it's really hard to, to care
(01:55):
about, because you feel like youhave to care about everything.
So it's really hard to careabout, like a single thing. You
get fatigued, you know, it'slike, how many? How many
organizations? Can I be a partof, or participate in?
Individually, they just kind ofall cancel each other out. And
so this is just another one ofthose fatigue situations.
Totally. And you're not reallymaking an impact if you're
(02:16):
trying to do everything. Soyeah, I know, it's like, I could
be a warrior for plastic oragainst plastic, to the
exclusion of everything else.
And some people are, and somepeople aren't. Yeah, and I think
there are a lot of, you know,people who are that way about,
about various causes. And Ithink that's a legitimate
(02:37):
lifestyle choice to make. It'sjust, it's hard. It's really
hard. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Sowe're gonna, we're gonna get
back into like, some of thehorror of it all. But I do I did
find a glimmer of hope foreverybody. Oh, goody. We're
gonna end on a glimmer of hope.
Yes, it's my favorite one. Icouldn't handle it without
(02:58):
finding at least some potentialchance that we're not all
completely doomed. Yeah. Yeah.
Call me a positive person.
An optimist. I, I believe thatyou are, and I will follow you
into the sunlight.
(03:20):
Exactly. By just we have to gointo the depths of hills. And
before we do that, I guess weshould introduce ourselves and
welcome to the podcast. This isgreening up my act. Yeah.
Welcome. Yeah. I'm Kat Cox. Andthat's Tiffany. Verbeck. Yeah,
that's me. We're two marketingwriters. And we examine Green
Living via Green Living productsand systems and things that
(03:42):
promise make big promises, andwe examine those promises and
figure out if they're realistic,or if they're green Hui, as we
call them, which is junk,meaning marketing speak that
hides its true possibilities orcapabilities. Yes. And we spend
our days writing marketingfluff. And we know pretty well
(04:04):
that's really true. Okay, andreally helpful.
Yeah, we just make it pretty.
Yeah. And sound nice. Yeah.
Yeah, but a lot of this stuff.
And the the green quote unquote,green space is who we are, who
we, as we've discovered,although some of it I'm
surprised, like some of it ispleasantly surprising, because
that's our goal. We're nottrying to call everything out
(04:25):
and find all the terriblethings. We're really trying to
find stuff that works for peopleand the environment, and is
better for everybody involved.
So that's our ultimate goal isto find the good stuff on all
fronts. Agreed. Yep. So lastweek, we started down the dark
path of now we've been callingit the four horsemen of the
(04:49):
recycle apocalypse and we foundout the first three were more
like My Little Ponies.
Aluminum glass and paper areactually not the same as what
We're referring to death asdeath is plastic. Right? Plastic
is death. And it really is. Andlast week, you covered the
inauspicious beginnings, I wouldsay, yes, personal
(05:12):
responsibility, plasticrecycling, what I will call it
rather than corporateresponsibility not making
plastic, which should be theideal is finding an alternative
to plastic instead of justforcing consumers to face the
brunt of the damage. Right, andputting it on our shoulders and
telling us outright that it'sour fault that this all this
(05:33):
plastic waste. I mean, it's acrisis. Now we're in a global
credit plastic crisis. Andthat's all these companies have
tried to convince people likeyou and me, then it is our
fault. And just put it in an optin and you'll be fine.
It's not we're not lazy. That'snot why this is happening.
Right? Yeah. So we kind of wentinto the history last week. And
(05:57):
this week, we saw that I had toturn this into a two parter.
This was our first two parterever because it was so much.
Yeah. And I really wanted togive it the time that it
deserved. So yeah, we're kind oftalking today about like, more
like where we are today. Andgoing forward and trying to find
(06:18):
some possible solutions. Yes. Sowe're going to explore those.
But first, I have a couple newsources. Great that I found
since I last chatted with you,because I did a little bit more
of a deep dive into a couple ofthings. So Greenpeace, I have
(06:38):
like a mixed feelings aboutGreenpeace, but they they do
have some opinions that I agreewith. So they talk about the
United States is stance on theplastics Treaty, which I will
get into. There's a plasticschain. Yes. I'm gonna get into
it. non-proliferation. Yeah.
Sure.
Yeah, no nuclear plastics.
(07:02):
And then Scientific Americaalso, or Scientific American
also talked about the plasticstraws at BBC. I use them just
sort of like a general should.
They'd had an article about,should we burn or bury plastic?
The week had an article, shouldyou even bother recycling
plastic? I watched a John Oliverepisode. What is his show
(07:25):
called? John? Last week? Lastweek? Last Week Tonight? Yeah. I
watched one of his episodes onplastic, and I highly recommend
it. And one more website iswaste dive. They have a lot of
really interesting articles thatthey link. So they talked about
packaging legislation. Okay. TheNew Yorker had an article that
came out just a couple of daysago, maybe even like, three or
(07:47):
four days ago. Well, plasticsare poisoning us. Oh, boy, I
know, and said that. I didn'tuse a whole lot. But it was a
really good article, and we'lllink it so it's definitely worth
a read. So I have a quickcorrection from last week. So
the Guardian article that Icited, about, I said that in 25
(08:07):
years, that plastic productionis supposed to triple. Yeah, but
it's actually by 2060 is what?
Oh, okay. But well, okay, sothat's 35 years, 37 years.
That's another decade. Butyou're right, so great. I might
it might we might hit the goalbefore then. Right? Yes.
(08:30):
Yeah. So where we are today kindof started in 2017, when maybe a
lot of people know about this,but China had a more or less a
ban of importing plastics. Sobasically, China used to take
(08:51):
about 60% of the plastic wasteexported by g7 countries. g7 is
Canada, France, US, Germany,Italy, Japan, United Kingdom. So
China would take that plastic inand then use it to create
products. And but then they gotfed up. And they say that it's
because they started to takeenvironmental protection
(09:11):
seriously, that they basicallybanned. Most plastic waste to
come from coming into theircountry. So they went from 60%
to like 10, less than 10% of theworld waste. And
they say the heart this is justironic to me, because they say
we can't take your plastics torecycle them because the harm to
(09:34):
the groundwater and the harm tothe air have big economic costs.
So basically, like our trashfrom here was piling up over
there and hurting theirenvironment and their economy,
in turn. Makes sense. Yeah.
Right. So this is all I'mgetting this all from the famous
Financial Times article aboutwhat this Chinese policy is
(09:56):
called the National swordpolicy, which is
Like, Oh, wow, that's so very onbrand China. Well done. Exactly.
So the this Financial Timesarticle calls recycling an
industry this is a, quote anindustry plagued by allegations
of smuggling, corruption andpollution. Okay. And it's
(10:20):
suddenly been thrust into thespotlight because China was
like, screw this. Like, we'renot taking this crap literal
crap from you guys anymore.
Sothat's pretty interesting. I was
like, Hi corruption andsmuggling in recycling.
Fascinating because we all thinkrecycling, it's like, friendly
bunnies and happy rainbows, butparent, right? Yeah. So this
(10:44):
created a global crisis inplastic waste when China was
like, No, thank you. So why isthis such a big problem? I mean,
60% I told you, but how abouthalf of the plastic that's
intended for recycling is tradedoverseas. Right. And California
exports two thirds of theirplastic. Okay. So that is, that
(11:06):
was mind blowing to me, becauseI did not realize that we were I
didn't realize that that'sthat's what was happening. It's
like a It's a global issue. It'snot just, yeah, we think about
our landfills, but it's trulynot our landfills, that it's
being impacted. So the plasticinstead of going to China, it
(11:29):
went to Malaysia, Malaysiabecame the new biggest importer
of plastic. So all these othercountries were like, hey, maybe
we should try this. Thailand. Inthis article, they talked about
lots of falsified classiccustoms declarations, police
raids, corruption, illegalprocessing plants. Yikes. Yep.
In Vietnam, it says bales ofplastic piled up at ports. And
(11:54):
so the country declared that itwouldn't become the landfill of
the world and stopped issuinglicenses for recycling imports.
Okay. I mean, it's like thiscrime drama. I know. It's we are
now a true crime podcast. We'regonna have to be re Yeah, it's
really crazy. And I think now, Ithink Malaysia is still the
(12:16):
largest importer. But whathappens is there's open air
burning, I think this is theJohn Oliver episode where they
basically just burn this becauseit there's just too much of it.
Yeah. So either people aretrying to run sort of
illegitimate recyclingprocessing plants that have no
environmental restrictions onthem at all, or they're just
(12:38):
burning it in the air. Andpeople are talking about how
it's like, it hurts your eyes.
It hurts your head. It's yeah.
It's like burning tires. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. So this is just allthere. And the John Oliver
episode had some, some footagefrom I can't remember where they
(12:58):
they might have been inThailand, but it's just it's
really wild. Because the guypulled out bags from like,
Texas. Or like, I don't rememberwhere exact Yeah, somewhere
like, Vermont or something. Andso even this was a problem, even
before China was, or Chinadecided to ban imports, because
even before then it just, itjust made it apparent. But even
(13:21):
before then, only 10% of theplastic in the US was being
recycled.
That's still Yeah. So yeah, sonow, so that just made it super
obvious. So where are we todaylittle bit about where we are
today. So I mentioned theplastics treaty. So the 2024
(13:42):
International plastics treaty isa current work in progress.
Okay. Which is kind of exciting.
Right? Well, I mean, yeah, I wasgonna say, except for the
country that recently pulled outof the Paris Climate Accords.
Well, so on that note,so this is the whole treaty is a
(14:04):
global effort to reduce plasticpollution among 175 nations. So
it's a huge endeavor. Global.
Yeah. And the US isn't involved.
But unfortunately, Biden is notreally fulfilling or following
through with his promise to, youknow, focus on climate change,
(14:25):
because the US only supportsvoluntary reductions, rather
than forced reductions, right.
Because we would be I mean,it will cripple our economy. It
would, theoretically, yeah, Imean, other countries are doing
it, and they're figuring out away. Yeah. So yeah, so they we
(14:47):
only so and it's just anindustry thing. It's just trying
to make sure that the big oiland big plastic guys are happy.
YouNo. So we also focus heavily on
plastics recycling. So we thinklike, as always, recycling is
this magic wand that we canwave. Turns out it's not. No.
(15:11):
Yeah. So Greenpeace says thatthe US needs to focus on
reduction and wide widespreadsystems of refill and reuse.
Okay. And package freesolutions, which I
wholeheartedly agree with. Yeah.
Because like you order somethingfrom Amazon. You're like, how?
(15:32):
Why do I need 40 ounces ofplastic on a single? Yeah, yeah.
Lighter or something? Yeah. Likesix bags wrapped around one
single pencil. Yeah, you'relike, really? I think the
pencils gonna be okay. I justdon't make it. Yeah. Yeah. So
they're saying so Greenpeacesays we need the Biden
(15:53):
administration to listen to thepeople, not the big consumer
brands nor the petrochemicalindustry. All right, who has the
money? Hmm. Yes. So there was areport from Lund University.
That said, while governments arecommitting to action on climate
change, and have signed up toinitiatives tackling global
plastic pollution, massiveinvestments are being made to
(16:15):
expand production capacity inthe petrochemical sector. Not
least in the Middle East, Chinaand the USA.
All right. Yeah, there is apetition you can sign if you're
interested kind of thing fromGreenpeace. I signed it. I was
like, Yeah, I agree with thislease you could do yeah, we'll
link it in case anybody'sinterested in signing it. So a
(16:39):
couple of things I wanted togive you guys a heads up on was
if you're Googling like plasticrecycling, plastic waste in
plastic pollution, you're gonnacome up, you're gonna come upon
a couple of things. One of themis called the Alliance to End
plastic waste. Okay, this lookslike a nonprofit, it looks
legitimate their, their fundingall of these different cleanup
(17:01):
efforts and all this crazy stuffand recycling blah, blah, blah.
They're definitely pushingrecycling. So I had to do some
digging. And I found out prettyquickly that this is a corporate
group, with members from Exxon,shell, Dow, Chevron, Phillips,
chemical, etc. Our favorites,all of our favorites. Exactly.
(17:34):
This is basically like the mostgreen washi of greenwashed I've
ever seen. Well, okay. i Youdon't think there's any chance
that it's them takingresponsibility? On a level? You
think? You think it really is inbad faith?
i Yes. Okay, fair. Yes, I do.
Because, because first off,they're pushing for recycling.
(17:59):
Okay. Once again, it'srecycling. Yeah. Plastic.
They're they're funding I sawthat they were funding like,
student recycling something orother? Oh, okay. Yeah. Make the
kids do it.
Yeah. And it's like, that's notthe solution here. Because,
yeah, it's just not for so manyreasons. As we've mentioned,
it's not the solution. I mean, Iwould like to say, I'm sure
(18:24):
there were some people whoaren't completely corrupt and
evil working at thesecorporations. Right. Why to
health care? Yeah, of course.
But I think probably the peopleat the top. No, they're not.
They why? Why would they bothermaking the money? Yeah, exactly.
(18:47):
And if they can get away withgreenwashing it and pretending
or saying cuz that's what theyalways do. That's what I've been
reading is like, any companypretty much will say, Oh, yeah,
we have all these greeninitiatives. And then once when
they're pressured to do it, andthen once the pressure lays off
a complete background in them.
Yeah. So I mean, not that therearen't good companies out there.
(19:07):
But a lot of the time, that'swhat happens. So yeah, I don't I
don't believe I don't buy it atall.
So just if you run into Allianceto End plastic waste, just know
what you're looking at. You canhave fully a different opinion
than me, but at least know who'swho's funding it. So is
(19:30):
recycling plasticenvironmentally better than
producing new plastic? This isthe big question, right? I keep
shitting on recycling plastic.
Why am I shitting on it? Okay,the answer that question is no.
For two reasons. Andyeah, probably more reasons than
that. So the first one isGreenpeace morons. This is based
(19:51):
on trying this isn't justGreenpeace. By the way. This is
a guard from a Guardian articlebut they do warn
Learn that plastics recyclingshouldn't be included in a 2024
international plastics treaty.
Okay, sorry already.
They're just reading it, youknow about the plastics treaty.
(20:13):
So it shouldn't be included inthat plastics treaty, because it
makes recycling makes theplastic more toxic. Okay. Oh
gosh.
Yeah. Yes. And so there, itcauses higher amounts of these
toxins to be concentrated insidethis plastic. So there's higher
(20:35):
amounts of things like flavoredflame retardants and benzene.
Yikes. Yeah, etc. Other things,too. And so what Greenpeace says
is, plastics are inherentlyincompatible with a circular
economy. And I'll get into alittle bit about a circular
economy a little bit later.
Because I didn't really knowwhat that meant. Right? And, and
second reason is it breakingplastic down to recycle, it
(21:01):
creates microplastics andmicroplastics are not good for a
number of reasons. I didn'treally understand. I had heard
the term 1000 times, but Ididn't really understand why
they were so bad. But it'sbasically like, they get into
everything. And as mentioned,full of toxins. So they found
(21:24):
one study found my microplasticsin a placenta. Oh, my God.
A human placenta God. Yes. Sothe exposure can happen before
you're even born.
Yeah, and I just think about allof Charlie's plastic bottles
(21:44):
that we use my God.
It's fine. But anyway, so whenyou? Yeah. So when you recycle
it? Anywhere? This is a UK studysays that anywhere between 6% to
13% of the plastic, plasticprocessed, could end up being
released into water or the airas microplastics. Jesus. Okay.
(22:08):
So.
And like I mentioned, you canrecycle plastic one to do time?
What was it one to four? Lessthan a handful? 123 I think it
was like, no, not very manytimes. And then it's got to go
into landfill anyway. Right. Sowhat's the point? Kind of? And
(22:31):
I'll get into that in a littlebit, actually, very soon,
because I also looked intoDutch, like the the Netherlands
because they're very proud oftheir recycling program. And I
was like, is it actually as goodas we think it is? Or as people
think it is? And it turns out,just over because I remember I
(22:53):
said, I went and everything wascovered in plastic in the
grocery store. Yeah, just likehere. Yeah. And let's see, what
did I look at? So I looked at acouple different sources, but
all of them were Dutch, in youknow, obviously, right now, of
course. Yeah. I don't I didn'tlearn Dutch for this. But so
just over half of plasticpackaging used in the
(23:15):
Netherlands in 2018 wasrecycled, which is better than
the US but a lot possibly 50% isincinerated. I couldn't find the
exact number on that. But a lotis incinerated. And this was
even what my friends neighbortold me that. Like if Oh, if you
don't, if we don't recycle it,we burn it for and use use it to
(23:38):
create energy. Okay, likeparalysis or whatever it's
called. I don't know what it'scalled. But yeah, basically
harnesses the energy. Okay. Itturns out this is a super
inefficient way to createenergy. And it has about 25%
efficiency compared to 55%.
efficiency for gas fired powerplants. Oh, okay. So it's like
(23:59):
less than half. Okay. And whencoal is phased out for
generating electricity,incineration of unrecycled waste
will be the most co2 intensiveform of generation, which isn't
great to say that once coal isgone, you'll be the worst thing
for the environment, becausecoal is like the worst worst
worst, right? Yes. It's beingsecond is not not cool. Yeah.
(24:24):
You don't want that silvermedal.
So in the in this BBC articlethat I read the UK environmental
minister Theresa or ThereseCoffey, I'm not sure how you say
your name. She told the commonsin environmental terms, it's
(24:45):
generally better to bury plasticthan to burn it.
And this is a debate right?
Yeah, she's saying that buryingplastic is a is like a form of
carbon capture. Yeah.
because it's all going to be inthere forever, literally
forever, ever. Yeah. If you'rethinking about like, I would say
(25:08):
in I wouldn't say inenvironmental terms, I would say
in greenhouse gas terms, right.
Yeah. Which, yeah. But it's adifferent concept. But yeah,
yeah. And that's part of theproblem that I'm running into.
And what I'm having a reallyhard time with is like one
thing, impacts and otherimpacts. And other it's like,
you can make progress in one wayand totally make take 18 steps
back and the other. Yeah, youknow, the other side. So it's,
(25:31):
it's really hard, buteverything's connected. But I
found that really interesting.
And I was like, I'm so sorry,Dutch friends, but you're not as
great as you think you are. Ithink we should probably own up
to that. Not to mention,remember, I said it's a global
problem. The plastic soupFoundation, which I believe is
(25:53):
also Dutch, but just a websitethat I found, says the
Netherlands is the largestexporter of plastic waste in
Europe. Wow. And they're a tinycountry.
Wow. Okay. So they're, they'rehaving the same origin heading
the same problem? We are. Yeah.
And it sucks, because I waslike, maybe they have some
(26:16):
solution. The Dutch? Yeah.
I mean, obviously, they're doingbetter in terms of like, overall
waste production. Management usis not doing well. But
you know, they have a differentmindset to it is it is very much
(26:36):
like reduction first, but yeah,they're not like, I don't know.
They're not perfect. And, yeah,there's still issues. Yeah. So
that was kind of sad, but it'sfine. The Dutch, the Dutch have
been demoted. I know.
One last thing. And then I'mgoing to get into my granola
(26:57):
rating. Okay, but I'm going todo my granola rating before I go
into, like, where do we go fromhere? Okay. And we're at 30
minutes. Hopefully, this doesn'ttake all night.
But I think this is worthdevoting some time to so
basically, one last thing. Hetalks about chemical recycling,
(27:18):
which is a different way you useheat or chemical solvents to
break down plastics. And itturns into like an oil like
mixture or the basic chemicals.
And of course, industry leaderssay that the mixture can be made
back into plastic pellets. Andthat it's better than any other
way that we recycle plastic.
(27:39):
Yeah, but environmentalists sayit's a distraction. So it's
unknown. That's a very newthing. So maybe that will help
in the future. I don't have thatmuch faith. But you know,
someone that I was reading said,we can't rule anything out. And
that's true. Yeah. We'll keep onkeepin on, I guess.
(28:00):
My granola rating. Okay. I havea feeling I know what it's gonna
be. Do you because are you goingto say one? Yeah. Okay, zero.
Well, that's the thing. I had togo with zero. We don't even have
a word for that. But I foundone. Oh, okay. I'm calling it
(28:20):
waterlogged.
I like that. It's like, it'sbasically the granola pack the
great granola patch floating inthe ocean.
Yeah, so if you are new here, werate each each system or product
on a scale of one to fivegranolas and obviously crunchy
granola is better than soggygranola. So one is soggy. But
(28:44):
this is worse than soggy.
Absolutely waterlogged. Because,one, the plastics and oil
industry has lied to us fordecades and plastic recycling is
not sustainable economically orenvironmentally. Number two, the
purpose of the plasticsrecycling industry is to prop up
the industries to continuecreating single use plastic and
(29:04):
getting their products on theshelf. Right. It shouldn't be on
the consumer to solve and thesecompanies are making money and
taking zero responsibility 100%Three, we can only recycle
plastics a few times, maybe onlyonce. Number four, it's a global
issue. Western countries areshipping our plastic waste to
less developed countries andpolluting the hell out of their
(29:26):
land and water contributing tothe corruption creating a black
market and not takingresponsibility for any of our
shit.
So that's my sort of TLDR toolong didn't read granola rating.
Okay for everybody who justwants to skip ahead.
Cheese. Right. The question iswhere do we go from here? Yes,
(29:51):
okay.
Okay, buckle up.
So, reduce, reuse recycle. Inthat order.
(30:14):
I had my friend Julia asked me,am I, we were talking about this
as I was doing my research andcrying.
But she asked him if I'm goingto keep recycling my plastic and
I couldn't answer her because Iwas like, I don't know if it's
worth it. Luckily, John Oliverhas a helpful answer. Oh, good.
And he says, Even recyclingplastic while it may be 90%,
(30:36):
more pointless than you assumedcan still have modest
environmental benefits. Fair.
Okay. And the week that articleI use clarifies to say if you
sort the right kinds of plasticsinto your recycling bin, okay.
Yep, I believe that, yeah. Quitwith a wish cycling. Yes,
exactly. So my friend Julia hada really good idea that she said
(31:01):
it should be on our government'sto stop offering plastics,
recycling, and call it call itout on it's bullshit. But like,
so many people are bought intoit, or at least plastics
recycling, in that singlestream, throw everything in a
bin kind of situation. But somany people are bought into it.
And I they really don't. I don'tthink people could handle it. If
(31:24):
they couldn't recycle or atleast feel cycle you feel weird.
Yeah, you do. Ya.
So the proposed solutions, thereare 123. Okay, so really three
proposed solutions. And one ismy favorite. But we'll start
(31:46):
with the circular economy. AndI'm not saying this is bad. To
be honest, I didn't have enoughtime because this was a really
big episode. I didn't haveenough time to research fully
into the circular economy. So I,I just wanted to really give a
definition. But this is like oneproposed solution. So it's
basically like making like, itsounds making a circle out of
(32:09):
the, out of the use ofresources. So right now we take
resources from the naturalworld, use them and dispose of
them. In a circular economy. Wereuse the resources rather than
consuming them. So we createreusable, plastic and redesign
plastic with recycling. I mean,it says recycling in mind, I
(32:30):
don't think that's helpful. Butwell, I mean, if the idea of
being able to reuse it, thatmakes sense. Yes. And we design
it to like, we design ourtechnology or our products to
make repairs easy and reusing asmuch existing material as
possible. Yeah. Upcycling, Imean, what even more
(32:51):
technologically advanced thanthat we like reverse engineer
our plastic, right to berecyclable, basically. Like,
with minimal processing, youknow, right. Yeah, that or just
make it like, not everything hasto be thrown away. Yeah,
another, okay. So the circulareconomy is sort of its own
(33:13):
thing. And everything can kindof relate to each other. But one
other idea on reducing theamount of plastic we use is to
make it a personal decision, andreduce our personal usage right
back on the consumer. Yes. Andso I found this blog and book
called my plastic free life, andthis person started the blog
(33:37):
just as a personal thing. Andthen it's really kind of
exploded, and they give us 100steps that we can take. So they
say like choose a few to getstarted and take time to build
like, carry your own takeoutcontainer, carry a water bottle,
bring your own produce bags tothe grocery store. These are all
really, actually very goodideas. No, I know they are an
(34:01):
easy, you just have to remember,right? So then buy bread that
come doesn't come in plasticbags, get milk and returnable
glass bottles, DIY yourcleaners.
We can help you with that. Weknow a whole season about that.
So the problem with that, andit's not that I disagree with
any of that. And I had the samefeeling when I was reading this
(34:25):
book, How to Give Up plastic.
And it was saying basically,like throw out all your I mean,
this is a paraphrase. And I'mnot even trying to insult the
author or accuse him ofanything. It's really just a
commentary on the the generalconsensus is like throw out all
your plastic stuff and buy newstuff to replace it.
(34:45):
And there are multiple problemswith that. But one of the big
problems and I this New Yorkerarticle that I just read from a
couple of days ago, highlightedit with a Danish Environmental
Protection Agency study.
From 2018, this study looked atdifferent kinds of shopping
bags. So they compared plasticbags to paper bags to cloth
(35:07):
bags. And they analyze thelifecycle impacts in terms of
like, environment, climatechange, ozone depletion, human
toxicity, ecosystem toxicity,resource depletion, they looked
at all sorts of stuff. And itturns out in order for other
kinds of bags to be, as outsorry to have a lower
(35:28):
environmental impact than aplastic bag, a paper bag would
have to be used 43 times.
There's no way it could survive.
That's when we're thinking reYeah, okay. Cotton tote would
have to be used 7100 times 7100Time to offset all of the
(35:51):
environmental indicators. That'sa plastic tote, a cotton tote.
Oh, a cotton tote. Wow. Like youthink of cotton is good. I know.
I know. So many cotton.
Everybody gives them out likethis. Give me a frickin tote
bag. I have like me a stash inmy trunk that like I will take
grocery shopping with otherpeople. Because I'm like, You're
gonna forget your bags. Andguess what? I've got them smart.
(36:13):
And that contributes to your7100 dimes. Yeah, I know.
Because it's all my friends usethem to know. But the good news
is that's to offset all of theenvironmental indicators
together. Okay, but you onlyhave to use it 52 times to
offset the climate changeportion of it. So if we're
really focusing on climatechange, which is sort of
personally what I want to focuson. Yeah. 52 times is
(36:35):
attainable. That's once a week.
Right? That is exactly whatI mean. Yeah. Yeah. So but but I
found that so interesting,because it's like, I knew that I
had heard that in the past. LikeI talked about producing paper
takes a shitload of water. Ittakes it uses chemicals, it
does. Forests, for like, yeah.
(37:01):
So I found that reallyinteresting. And throwing out
all your plastic stuff andreplacing it with non plastic
stuff. I'm not necessarily surethat's the right yeah, direction
you want to go probably betterto just use your plastic stuff.
Again, be very careful aboutwhat plastic stuff you get and
reuse it. Right. Right. That'sthe thing. And it's so hard to
(37:24):
do. Like, I think I told you, Ialmost had a panic attack
grocery shopping. Yeah, like,can't get Yes. Is it possible?
Yeah. And, and that's anotherthing. So this New Yorker
article says is to make asignificant dent in plastic
waste, we it will probablyrequire not just substitution,
but in elimination. And thatmeans elimination of
(37:47):
stuff. Not just replacing thatstuff, but eliminating not
needing it. Yeah, yeah. So like,you walking around your grocery
store, you can only use yourarms.
I don't know. I don't know whatthat would look like. But well,
yeah, I mean, okay, well, or youonly buy? You grow your own
(38:08):
food, you know, right. And youdon't need your
bins. Yeah. I mean, that's,that's rough. That's that's,
that is not sustainable foreveryone. But that is an option.
Yes. So then this, this NewYorker article says if the much
of a contemporary ofcontemporary life is wrapped up
in plastic, and the result ofthis is that we are poisoning
our kids, ourselves and ourecosystems, then contemporary
(38:31):
life may need to be rethought.
But I have a question for you. Iwanted to get your take on this.
So people have said, like, oh,let's go back to how our
grandparents did it. And thatactually would solve our plastic
problem. And I do agree withthat, to a large extent tin cans
and glass bottles. Exactly.
(38:51):
However, do you think we canmanage going back to the good
parts of our grandparents life?
Because let's be honest, theyweren't all good. If women also
work outside the home, there isthere is my issue. convenience
we have. It's a thing like wetalked about all the time. I saw
an argument on Facebook oncebecause I'm old and I use
(39:14):
Facebook. Thank you. We do abouthow bad Amazon is, economically,
package wise, you know, butsomeone said, Look, I'm a
working mom, and my husbandworks. And when I run out of
something, and I can just clicka button on Amazon and it's
there the next day and I don'thave to do the brain work of
shopping for it or you know,like that's worth something. So
(39:35):
you're right. I think we don'tlive in an economic situation
where you can have a person inyour home who is committed to
doing all of this literal labor.
Oh, absolutely. You know,thoughtfulness, the mindfulness.
I mean, we all kind of hoped thepandemic would be this giant
(39:58):
shift in our room.
ality about what we value. Andthere's just been this drive, I
think the whole Well, you got tocome back into the office is
this drive by wealthyindividuals? Well, it will be
corporations to try and getthings back the status quo
because if we don't consume andwe don't drive, and we don't
(40:21):
work 90 hours a week and neversee our children, you know, we
can't create this consumerculture that drives our economy
and really does drive at thebottom of it, I hate to say it,
but our standard of living, we,we live in a, in a society where
100 years ago, you needed a cookto cook all your meals or you
know, and that would be a stayat home mom in the 50s You know,
(40:42):
because you needed someone tomanage the household like that.
And what we have now is fastfood or plastic wrapped things
at the grocery store, you canjust pop in the microwave, you
know, and, and that is tosupport our lifestyle, it's it's
one less thing we have to thinkof we all have a chef for
ourselves, in some sense inMcDonald's, you know, or like
even home chef or those like,yeah, reordered. So options. And
(41:07):
it is kind of I hate to get on asocial justice train on this,
but it does punish the poor tosay that it is their job, you
know, you need as a as a anindividual contributor to
society, we need to return tothese inconvenient life modes.
And there's no way that a personwho works three jobs at minimum
(41:29):
wage could ever have the time todo that. And that's that my I
agree that it punishes women. Itpunishes lower income women,
single moms. I mean that, again,we're asking the people with the
least resources to do the mostwork again.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's thething. It's like a lot I see on
(41:49):
Instagram a lot like women whohave chosen to start
homesteading and working at homeworking on their home and just
sort of like baking bread fromscratch and all these things.
And it's like, all sounds soidyllic, but it's just like,
it's a sacrifice. I mean, yeah.
And I think about it when I'mgoing into a grocery store. I'm
like, Okay, if I didn't want tohave plastic, let's say, bread.
Okay, bread will say bread, likeso I'm going to throw it out
(42:15):
there. My twin sister, who youknow, is my green living
goddess.
She has three kids, she works afull time job as a rocket
scientist, so does her husband,and they bake their own bread.
And he brews his own beer. Andthey grow garden and you know,
(42:35):
they buy in bulk. So they don'thave as much plastic and you
know, all these things theymake. It's very intentional.
Yeah. And they don't have anymore time than I do. Yeah. But
then you think about like, okay,tortilla chips, for example.
Yeah, I could theoretically getcornmeal in a paper sack, roll
out my own tortillas cut, slicethem up and coat them or just
(42:58):
not eat tortilla chips. Butlike, I like tortilla chips.
And salsa, man. It's one of mygyms for sure. And then fry them
up and make them but that withevery single product like
cereal, I can never have cereal,pasta. Pasta. I have to make it
by hand macaroni and cheeseevery time. No. Yeah. It's like,
you can do that with one thinglike make bread make beer or
(43:19):
whatever. And if that's fun foryou, that's awesome. But I'm
assuming she's not making herown tortilla chips as well as
her own. Yeah, like every Yeah,it's it's so sacrifices you make
and it's Yeah, for sure. We dolive in a world you know. That's
another thing. How often didyour grandmother eat tortilla
chips? Right?
(43:40):
Absolutely never are like,you know, I have macaroni and
cheese out of a box. You know?
That's true. It is one of life'sgreat pleasures. Yeah. But it
just kind of ridiculous that Iexpect to have all of my
luxuries at all times because Idon't want to go without
tortilla chips. Yeah, but thereis something to be said for on
(44:02):
some level, you have to weighwhat luxuries matter to you. On
some level, we have to bewilling to sacrifice luxuries
and conveniences now, beforethey are forced away from us
because of unsustainability ofthese luxuries of these
luxurious lifestyles. Yeah,maybe but it's also like what I
have to sew my own clothes. AlsoI have to you know, it's just
(44:25):
there's so much into it that isconvenient in our lives. Yeah,
but I yeah, I just really wantedyour take on that because I was
like, oh my god, it's just sucha different world. Yeah, it's a
complete mind shift. And it's,yeah, I'm not I'm not ready to
give up Amazon. You know, okay,I'm not. Yeah, well, and that's
(44:45):
the other thing is like none ofthis. None of this can
sustainably in our lives be anall of a sudden decision. I
think everything has to begradual, but at the same time,
and this goes back to my thirdand small glimmer of Hope
(45:12):
my third solution proposedsolution is, it's not all on us,
and it shouldn't have to be no.
So I learned from John Oliverthat there is such a thing as
it's called extended producerresponsibility, or also known as
the polluter pays principle. Oh,yes.
(45:41):
Okay, so the idea is that itmakes companies pay for the
pollution that they create,without coming like a carbon
tax, right, like.
So the idea is to make companiespay for pollution. And it forces
companies to either create theinfrastructure and the markets
(46:03):
to recycle the waste that theycreate, or banned them ban these
companies from creating theproducts to begin with. Okay. I
mean, yeah, I think economicdrivers, you know, there would
always be loopholes would be myproblem. I'm just such a cynic
about our culture. No, I tellthe techno feudalism that we
(46:25):
live in that those with moneyare always going to find a way
to skirt these things and sellus a bag of goods that is not
good for us. Well, hey, it'ssomething it's at least like
tonight's conversation going,yeah, maybe these companies
should have more responsibilityin the game. So yeah, they're
putting it out there. Theyshould, you know, they should
have to lie in the bed theythink. Exactly. Take care of the
(46:48):
children they're making. Thatsounds bad.
So many strike that strike that.
Something wrong withillegitimate children. Okay. So
can I take responsibility for anacclaimed job so much unpaid
child support? Well, does unpaidchild support? Yes, deadbeat dad
companies? Yes, deadbeatparents.
(47:10):
So it turns out that the US isone of the only developed
countries without an extendedproducer responsibility. And
it's that voluntary, our ouridea that people are going to do
the right thing because they'resupposed to, and not because
they've been conditionedotherwise. Yeah, I don't even
think it's that I think it'smore that there's too much
(47:31):
pressure from the plasticsindustry, from the oil industry,
that our politicians feel it'snot even that we have faith that
they're going to do the rightthing. It's more like, if we
made this mandatory, I'm notgoing to get reelected. Right.
So yeah. All right. So here'sthe thing. So some of the
(47:51):
Democrats are actually makingsome moves, including Bernie
Sanders, who, I don't know howyou feel about him. But he's
still, he's still out there. Sothere's the break free from
Plastic Pollution Act, which wasintroduced in the Senate in
2021. From Bernie Sanders and abunch of other Democrats. He's
the only one that I recognize,and it's only been introduced.
(48:13):
So it's like, still in theworks. 2021 It's been two years
people.
It hasn't gone anywhere. Itdoesn't mean it won't. But it's
something to keep an eye on.
Because it's, it seems like asolution, it seems like an
option to at least improve thesituation. But as states do,
when the federal governmentfails to act, four states
(48:36):
enacted their own laws, theirown EPR laws, mean Oregon,
Colorado and California. Okay,so they put they were like,
Screw it, we're just putting ourown laws in place. Illinois,
Connecticut, New York,Massachusetts, Hawaii, and
Washington are all at leastdiscussing it. But it may be
(48:56):
stalled. But they're stillchatting about it. At least. I
looked at Maryland where I liveand we
we have a Democrat governor, buthe chose to study it rather than
implement it. And so street credI'll have his cake and needed to
(49:18):
pretty much he's like, we'regonna take a look at this as
well. How about you just readlike four pages of a brief and
decide? So it's an option? It'slike a maybe here? I don't know,
but I'm gonna keep an eye on itfor sure. So like, look up EPR
laws coming through the pipelinein your state? Because
(49:41):
I'm very disappointed when Ilooked them up in Texas. Sure. I
don't know about Texas, but Ihave a feeling but that doesn't
mean it's impossible. There'salways hope. Okay, that looks
like there was a bill text anact relating to a program for
the recycling of computerequipment. Okay. Okay. Yeah.
I'm Delve Oh, it's a computercycling build a Dell back
(50:03):
actually in 2007, but I don'tknow.
I know. Yeah, I think I readthat EPR some of it does focus
on plastics. Not pot. Sorry. No.
Tech. Tech. Yeah. Yeah. So Imean, because that is a huge
polluter that we don't talk hugeproblem. Yeah. Apple.
(50:25):
So that's it. Okay. That wasonly an hour. Yeah, that's not a
bad. No. I mean, and there'ssome hope there. I mean, I
agree. I think. I think the tideis turning and I think people
The secret's out. No, nobodythat I have spoken to and I do
live in a little educatedbubble. You know, nobody that
I've spoken to is is shockedthat plastic recycling is green
(50:49):
hooey.
I was shocked. To the extentthat I think that may be the
case, but I think the tide isturning for sure. Yeah, well,
no. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I don'tthink anybody's using plastic
and feeling good about it. No,no, I mean, me the new smoking
give a shit. But yeah, somepeople don't. But it's to do
care. I don't think they'relike, Oh, this is fine. Yeah, I
(51:10):
agree. Well, thank you this.
This is actually a really greatsegue into next week's topic.
Oh, what is it I forget. EcoFriendly junk collection. We're
looking into Bridwell. I'm soexcited. Yeah. And I'm excited
about this one too. I thinkit'll be a nice palate cleanser.
Thank God.
We really needed it. We do. Wedo after our waterlogged
(51:34):
plastics. Yes. the grossest ofall gross granola ratings. That
is, by far the worst we've had.
So far. Sogood, but nothing is worse than
that. Man. We're gonna have tocome up with a real doozy of a
word. Yeah.
So please, God, don't let anyworse? I hope not. Yeah, it's
less than we've hit the bottomwhere there's only up uphill
(51:54):
from here. Thank God. So yeah,hopefully it was helpful. I
think it's definitely helpedopen my eyes. And I think the
biggest takeaway would be like,don't try not to have a panic
attack in the grocery store.
Because I think it's all verygradual. It's all very slow.
Yeah, look up those EPR laws inyour state and try to push them
through. I truly don't know howthat happens. But write a letter
(52:16):
to your friends write a letter.
Yeah. To your your congressman,Congress, people your
representatives. Yep. Yeah, cuzit's like, this is all honestly,
this is all that I want in mylife. Like if that happened, I
would die a happy woman. Truly,because it's always in Java and
me. You've heard it here. Theway to make Tiffany Verbeck
(52:39):
happy is to get this passed. Soplease, God, because it's like
I've always been so frustratedat the fact that companies just
get away with Yeah, her. Yeah.
Literal planet murder. Yeah. SoDeathstar.
Okay, well, all right.
(52:59):
If you like our content or hateour content, please follow us.
Click that follow buttonwherever you get your podcasts
and subscribe. Or leave us arating. It's a great way to let
other people know who we are.
And my mom can only do so muchof her friends.
Thanks, Mom.
(53:19):
Only so many reviews that onephone can handle. Yeah, yeah. So
yeah, yeah, reviews are sohelpful for a podcast. So 100
reviews, if you if you like us,maybe if you hate us, just go
away. Don't leave a one starreview. But no, no. I mean, if
we got enough one star reviews,maybe it would be like shooting
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(53:41):
pod? But don't think thealgorithm works that way. So the
algorithm has no sense of humor.
It only shows high star ratings.
So if you hate us, give us afive star rating so you can get
all your friends to hate us toreverse psychology to everyone.
Yeah. Yeah. Love it. All right.
Well, I will talk to you nextweek. I'm excited to hear about
red whale. Yeah. Can't wait totalk about it. Thanks. Okay.
So people have said, like, oh,let's go back to how our
grandparents did it. And thatactually would solve our plastic
problem. And I do agree withthat, to a large extent tin cans
and glass bottles. Exactly.
However, do you think we canmanage going back to the good
parts of our grandparents life?
Because let's be honest, theyweren't all good. If women also
(00:25):
work outside the home, there isthere is my issue.
Hi, Tiffany. Hi, Kat. How areyou?
I'm fine. We chatted a littlebit about or a little bit before
the episode started. Someoneelse is there to say? Well, I
(00:47):
mean, I think we could just say,did you lose much sleep over
last week's plastic recyclingepisode, which we recorded
several weeks ago for therecord? Yeah, it was actually
like two weeks ago. Yeah.
1,000%. I did. Oh, my gosh, I'vebeen seeing it everywhere. I
like, schooled my parents on itthe other day. I was like, this
is awful level. Oh, like,they're like, Yeah, I know.
(01:11):
It's not a secret. You know,everybody knows this. It's just
Yeah, well, the funny thing is,I didn't know how bad it was,
right? I think it's like, it'sreally easy to hear stuff and be
like, oh, people might beexaggerating, or turn a blind
eye because it's like, I don'tknow, easier. Yeah, to just be
(01:32):
init. I mean, the American life is
based on complacency or busynessin your own specialized area so
much that you don't, you can'tconcentrate on other things that
are really big deals, you know,right. Now, I mean, we're
bombarded all the time with somuch information. In our media,
diet, culture, you know, that,it's really hard to, to care
(01:55):
about, because you feel like youhave to care about everything.
So it's really hard to careabout, like a single thing. You
get fatigued, you know, it'slike, how many? How many
organizations? Can I be a partof, or participate in?
Individually, they just kind ofall cancel each other out. And
so this is just another one ofthose fatigue situations.
Totally. And you're not reallymaking an impact if you're
(02:16):
trying to do everything. Soyeah, I know, it's like, I could
be a warrior for plastic oragainst plastic, to the
exclusion of everything else.
And some people are, and somepeople aren't. Yeah, and I think
there are a lot of, you know,people who are that way about,
about various causes. And Ithink that's a legitimate
(02:37):
lifestyle choice to make. It'sjust, it's hard. It's really
hard. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Sowe're gonna, we're gonna get
back into like, some of thehorror of it all. But I do I did
find a glimmer of hope foreverybody. Oh, goody. We're
gonna end on a glimmer of hope.
Yes, it's my favorite one. Icouldn't handle it without
(02:58):
finding at least some potentialchance that we're not all
completely doomed. Yeah. Yeah.
Call me a positive person.
An optimist. I, I believe thatyou are, and I will follow you
into the sunlight.
(03:20):
Exactly. By just we have to gointo the depths of hills. And
before we do that, I guess weshould introduce ourselves and
welcome to the podcast. This isgreening up my act. Yeah.
Welcome. Yeah. I'm Kat Cox. Andthat's Tiffany. Verbeck. Yeah,
that's me. We're two marketingwriters. And we examine Green
Living via Green Living productsand systems and things that
(03:42):
promise make big promises, andwe examine those promises and
figure out if they're realistic,or if they're green Hui, as we
call them, which is junk,meaning marketing speak that
hides its true possibilities orcapabilities. Yes. And we spend
our days writing marketingfluff. And we know pretty well
(04:04):
that's really true. Okay, andreally helpful.
Yeah, we just make it pretty.
Yeah. And sound nice. Yeah.
Yeah, but a lot of this stuff.
And the the green quote unquote,green space is who we are, who
we, as we've discovered,although some of it I'm
surprised, like some of it ispleasantly surprising, because
that's our goal. We're nottrying to call everything out
(04:25):
and find all the terriblethings. We're really trying to
find stuff that works for peopleand the environment, and is
better for everybody involved.
So that's our ultimate goal isto find the good stuff on all
fronts. Agreed. Yep. So lastweek, we started down the dark
path of now we've been callingit the four horsemen of the
(04:49):
recycle apocalypse and we foundout the first three were more
like My Little Ponies.
Aluminum glass and paper areactually not the same as what
We're referring to death asdeath is plastic. Right? Plastic
is death. And it really is. Andlast week, you covered the
inauspicious beginnings, I wouldsay, yes, personal
(05:12):
responsibility, plasticrecycling, what I will call it
rather than corporateresponsibility not making
plastic, which should be theideal is finding an alternative
to plastic instead of justforcing consumers to face the
brunt of the damage. Right, andputting it on our shoulders and
telling us outright that it'sour fault that this all this
(05:33):
plastic waste. I mean, it's acrisis. Now we're in a global
credit plastic crisis. Andthat's all these companies have
tried to convince people likeyou and me, then it is our
fault. And just put it in an optin and you'll be fine.
It's not we're not lazy. That'snot why this is happening.
Right? Yeah. So we kind of wentinto the history last week. And
(05:57):
this week, we saw that I had toturn this into a two parter.
This was our first two parterever because it was so much.
Yeah. And I really wanted togive it the time that it
deserved. So yeah, we're kind oftalking today about like, more
like where we are today. Andgoing forward and trying to find
(06:18):
some possible solutions. Yes. Sowe're going to explore those.
But first, I have a couple newsources. Great that I found
since I last chatted with you,because I did a little bit more
of a deep dive into a couple ofthings. So Greenpeace, I have
(06:38):
like a mixed feelings aboutGreenpeace, but they they do
have some opinions that I agreewith. So they talk about the
United States is stance on theplastics Treaty, which I will
get into. There's a plasticschain. Yes. I'm gonna get into
it. non-proliferation. Yeah.
Sure.
Yeah, no nuclear plastics.
(07:02):
And then Scientific Americaalso, or Scientific American
also talked about the plasticstraws at BBC. I use them just
sort of like a general should.
They'd had an article about,should we burn or bury plastic?
The week had an article, shouldyou even bother recycling
plastic? I watched a John Oliverepisode. What is his show
(07:25):
called? John? Last week? Lastweek? Last Week Tonight? Yeah. I
watched one of his episodes onplastic, and I highly recommend
it. And one more website iswaste dive. They have a lot of
really interesting articles thatthey link. So they talked about
packaging legislation. Okay. TheNew Yorker had an article that
came out just a couple of daysago, maybe even like, three or
(07:47):
four days ago. Well, plasticsare poisoning us. Oh, boy, I
know, and said that. I didn'tuse a whole lot. But it was a
really good article, and we'lllink it so it's definitely worth
a read. So I have a quickcorrection from last week. So
the Guardian article that Icited, about, I said that in 25
(08:07):
years, that plastic productionis supposed to triple. Yeah, but
it's actually by 2060 is what?
Oh, okay. But well, okay, sothat's 35 years, 37 years.
That's another decade. Butyou're right, so great. I might
it might we might hit the goalbefore then. Right? Yes.
(08:30):
Yeah. So where we are today kindof started in 2017, when maybe a
lot of people know about this,but China had a more or less a
ban of importing plastics. Sobasically, China used to take
(08:51):
about 60% of the plastic wasteexported by g7 countries. g7 is
Canada, France, US, Germany,Italy, Japan, United Kingdom. So
China would take that plastic inand then use it to create
products. And but then they gotfed up. And they say that it's
because they started to takeenvironmental protection
(09:11):
seriously, that they basicallybanned. Most plastic waste to
come from coming into theircountry. So they went from 60%
to like 10, less than 10% of theworld waste. And
they say the heart this is justironic to me, because they say
we can't take your plastics torecycle them because the harm to
(09:34):
the groundwater and the harm tothe air have big economic costs.
So basically, like our trashfrom here was piling up over
there and hurting theirenvironment and their economy,
in turn. Makes sense. Yeah.
Right. So this is all I'mgetting this all from the famous
Financial Times article aboutwhat this Chinese policy is
(09:56):
called the National swordpolicy, which is
Like, Oh, wow, that's so very onbrand China. Well done. Exactly.
So the this Financial Timesarticle calls recycling an
industry this is a, quote anindustry plagued by allegations
of smuggling, corruption andpollution. Okay. And it's
(10:20):
suddenly been thrust into thespotlight because China was
like, screw this. Like, we'renot taking this crap literal
crap from you guys anymore.
Sothat's pretty interesting. I was
like, Hi corruption andsmuggling in recycling.
Fascinating because we all thinkrecycling, it's like, friendly
bunnies and happy rainbows, butparent, right? Yeah. So this
(10:44):
created a global crisis inplastic waste when China was
like, No, thank you. So why isthis such a big problem? I mean,
60% I told you, but how abouthalf of the plastic that's
intended for recycling is tradedoverseas. Right. And California
exports two thirds of theirplastic. Okay. So that is, that
(11:06):
was mind blowing to me, becauseI did not realize that we were I
didn't realize that that'sthat's what was happening. It's
like a It's a global issue. It'snot just, yeah, we think about
our landfills, but it's trulynot our landfills, that it's
being impacted. So the plasticinstead of going to China, it
(11:29):
went to Malaysia, Malaysiabecame the new biggest importer
of plastic. So all these othercountries were like, hey, maybe
we should try this. Thailand. Inthis article, they talked about
lots of falsified classiccustoms declarations, police
raids, corruption, illegalprocessing plants. Yikes. Yep.
In Vietnam, it says bales ofplastic piled up at ports. And
(11:54):
so the country declared that itwouldn't become the landfill of
the world and stopped issuinglicenses for recycling imports.
Okay. I mean, it's like thiscrime drama. I know. It's we are
now a true crime podcast. We'regonna have to be re Yeah, it's
really crazy. And I think now, Ithink Malaysia is still the
(12:16):
largest importer. But whathappens is there's open air
burning, I think this is theJohn Oliver episode where they
basically just burn this becauseit there's just too much of it.
Yeah. So either people aretrying to run sort of
illegitimate recyclingprocessing plants that have no
environmental restrictions onthem at all, or they're just
(12:38):
burning it in the air. Andpeople are talking about how
it's like, it hurts your eyes.
It hurts your head. It's yeah.
It's like burning tires. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. So this is just allthere. And the John Oliver
episode had some, some footagefrom I can't remember where they
(12:58):
they might have been inThailand, but it's just it's
really wild. Because the guypulled out bags from like,
Texas. Or like, I don't rememberwhere exact Yeah, somewhere
like, Vermont or something. Andso even this was a problem, even
before China was, or Chinadecided to ban imports, because
even before then it just, itjust made it apparent. But even
(13:21):
before then, only 10% of theplastic in the US was being
recycled.
That's still Yeah. So yeah, sonow, so that just made it super
obvious. So where are we todaylittle bit about where we are
today. So I mentioned theplastics treaty. So the 2024
(13:42):
International plastics treaty isa current work in progress.
Okay. Which is kind of exciting.
Right? Well, I mean, yeah, I wasgonna say, except for the
country that recently pulled outof the Paris Climate Accords.
Well, so on that note,so this is the whole treaty is a
(14:04):
global effort to reduce plasticpollution among 175 nations. So
it's a huge endeavor. Global.
Yeah. And the US isn't involved.
But unfortunately, Biden is notreally fulfilling or following
through with his promise to, youknow, focus on climate change,
(14:25):
because the US only supportsvoluntary reductions, rather
than forced reductions, right.
Because we would be I mean,it will cripple our economy. It
would, theoretically, yeah, Imean, other countries are doing
it, and they're figuring out away. Yeah. So yeah, so they we
(14:47):
only so and it's just anindustry thing. It's just trying
to make sure that the big oiland big plastic guys are happy.
YouNo. So we also focus heavily on
plastics recycling. So we thinklike, as always, recycling is
this magic wand that we canwave. Turns out it's not. No.
(15:11):
Yeah. So Greenpeace says thatthe US needs to focus on
reduction and wide widespreadsystems of refill and reuse.
Okay. And package freesolutions, which I
wholeheartedly agree with. Yeah.
Because like you order somethingfrom Amazon. You're like, how?
(15:32):
Why do I need 40 ounces ofplastic on a single? Yeah, yeah.
Lighter or something? Yeah. Likesix bags wrapped around one
single pencil. Yeah, you'relike, really? I think the
pencils gonna be okay. I justdon't make it. Yeah. Yeah. So
they're saying so Greenpeacesays we need the Biden
(15:53):
administration to listen to thepeople, not the big consumer
brands nor the petrochemicalindustry. All right, who has the
money? Hmm. Yes. So there was areport from Lund University.
That said, while governments arecommitting to action on climate
change, and have signed up toinitiatives tackling global
plastic pollution, massiveinvestments are being made to
(16:15):
expand production capacity inthe petrochemical sector. Not
least in the Middle East, Chinaand the USA.
All right. Yeah, there is apetition you can sign if you're
interested kind of thing fromGreenpeace. I signed it. I was
like, Yeah, I agree with thislease you could do yeah, we'll
link it in case anybody'sinterested in signing it. So a
(16:39):
couple of things I wanted togive you guys a heads up on was
if you're Googling like plasticrecycling, plastic waste in
plastic pollution, you're gonnacome up, you're gonna come upon
a couple of things. One of themis called the Alliance to End
plastic waste. Okay, this lookslike a nonprofit, it looks
legitimate their, their fundingall of these different cleanup
(17:01):
efforts and all this crazy stuffand recycling blah, blah, blah.
They're definitely pushingrecycling. So I had to do some
digging. And I found out prettyquickly that this is a corporate
group, with members from Exxon,shell, Dow, Chevron, Phillips,
chemical, etc. Our favorites,all of our favorites. Exactly.
(17:34):
This is basically like the mostgreen washi of greenwashed I've
ever seen. Well, okay. i Youdon't think there's any chance
that it's them takingresponsibility? On a level? You
think? You think it really is inbad faith?
i Yes. Okay, fair. Yes, I do.
Because, because first off,they're pushing for recycling.
(17:59):
Okay. Once again, it'srecycling. Yeah. Plastic.
They're they're funding I sawthat they were funding like,
student recycling something orother? Oh, okay. Yeah. Make the
kids do it.
Yeah. And it's like, that's notthe solution here. Because,
yeah, it's just not for so manyreasons. As we've mentioned,
it's not the solution. I mean, Iwould like to say, I'm sure
(18:24):
there were some people whoaren't completely corrupt and
evil working at thesecorporations. Right. Why to
health care? Yeah, of course.
But I think probably the peopleat the top. No, they're not.
They why? Why would they bothermaking the money? Yeah, exactly.
(18:47):
And if they can get away withgreenwashing it and pretending
or saying cuz that's what theyalways do. That's what I've been
reading is like, any companypretty much will say, Oh, yeah,
we have all these greeninitiatives. And then once when
they're pressured to do it, andthen once the pressure lays off
a complete background in them.
Yeah. So I mean, not that therearen't good companies out there.
(19:07):
But a lot of the time, that'swhat happens. So yeah, I don't I
don't believe I don't buy it atall.
So just if you run into Allianceto End plastic waste, just know
what you're looking at. You canhave fully a different opinion
than me, but at least know who'swho's funding it. So is
(19:30):
recycling plasticenvironmentally better than
producing new plastic? This isthe big question, right? I keep
shitting on recycling plastic.
Why am I shitting on it? Okay,the answer that question is no.
For two reasons. Andyeah, probably more reasons than
that. So the first one isGreenpeace morons. This is based
(19:51):
on trying this isn't justGreenpeace. By the way. This is
a guard from a Guardian articlebut they do warn
Learn that plastics recyclingshouldn't be included in a 2024
international plastics treaty.
Okay, sorry already.
They're just reading it, youknow about the plastics treaty.
(20:13):
So it shouldn't be included inthat plastics treaty, because it
makes recycling makes theplastic more toxic. Okay. Oh
gosh.
Yeah. Yes. And so there, itcauses higher amounts of these
toxins to be concentrated insidethis plastic. So there's higher
(20:35):
amounts of things like flavoredflame retardants and benzene.
Yikes. Yeah, etc. Other things,too. And so what Greenpeace says
is, plastics are inherentlyincompatible with a circular
economy. And I'll get into alittle bit about a circular
economy a little bit later.
Because I didn't really knowwhat that meant. Right? And, and
second reason is it breakingplastic down to recycle, it
(21:01):
creates microplastics andmicroplastics are not good for a
number of reasons. I didn'treally understand. I had heard
the term 1000 times, but Ididn't really understand why
they were so bad. But it'sbasically like, they get into
everything. And as mentioned,full of toxins. So they found
(21:24):
one study found my microplasticsin a placenta. Oh, my God.
A human placenta God. Yes. Sothe exposure can happen before
you're even born.
Yeah, and I just think about allof Charlie's plastic bottles
(21:44):
that we use my God.
It's fine. But anyway, so whenyou? Yeah. So when you recycle
it? Anywhere? This is a UK studysays that anywhere between 6% to
13% of the plastic, plasticprocessed, could end up being
released into water or the airas microplastics. Jesus. Okay.
(22:08):
So.
And like I mentioned, you canrecycle plastic one to do time?
What was it one to four? Lessthan a handful? 123 I think it
was like, no, not very manytimes. And then it's got to go
into landfill anyway. Right. Sowhat's the point? Kind of? And
(22:31):
I'll get into that in a littlebit, actually, very soon,
because I also looked intoDutch, like the the Netherlands
because they're very proud oftheir recycling program. And I
was like, is it actually as goodas we think it is? Or as people
think it is? And it turns out,just over because I remember I
(22:53):
said, I went and everything wascovered in plastic in the
grocery store. Yeah, just likehere. Yeah. And let's see, what
did I look at? So I looked at acouple different sources, but
all of them were Dutch, in youknow, obviously, right now, of
course. Yeah. I don't I didn'tlearn Dutch for this. But so
just over half of plasticpackaging used in the
(23:15):
Netherlands in 2018 wasrecycled, which is better than
the US but a lot possibly 50% isincinerated. I couldn't find the
exact number on that. But a lotis incinerated. And this was
even what my friends neighbortold me that. Like if Oh, if you
don't, if we don't recycle it,we burn it for and use use it to
(23:38):
create energy. Okay, likeparalysis or whatever it's
called. I don't know what it'scalled. But yeah, basically
harnesses the energy. Okay. Itturns out this is a super
inefficient way to createenergy. And it has about 25%
efficiency compared to 55%.
efficiency for gas fired powerplants. Oh, okay. So it's like
(23:59):
less than half. Okay. And whencoal is phased out for
generating electricity,incineration of unrecycled waste
will be the most co2 intensiveform of generation, which isn't
great to say that once coal isgone, you'll be the worst thing
for the environment, becausecoal is like the worst worst
worst, right? Yes. It's beingsecond is not not cool. Yeah.
(24:24):
You don't want that silvermedal.
So in the in this BBC articlethat I read the UK environmental
minister Theresa or ThereseCoffey, I'm not sure how you say
your name. She told the commonsin environmental terms, it's
(24:45):
generally better to bury plasticthan to burn it.
And this is a debate right?
Yeah, she's saying that buryingplastic is a is like a form of
carbon capture. Yeah.
because it's all going to be inthere forever, literally
forever, ever. Yeah. If you'rethinking about like, I would say
(25:08):
in I wouldn't say inenvironmental terms, I would say
in greenhouse gas terms, right.
Yeah. Which, yeah. But it's adifferent concept. But yeah,
yeah. And that's part of theproblem that I'm running into.
And what I'm having a reallyhard time with is like one
thing, impacts and otherimpacts. And other it's like,
you can make progress in one wayand totally make take 18 steps
back and the other. Yeah, youknow, the other side. So it's,
(25:31):
it's really hard, buteverything's connected. But I
found that really interesting.
And I was like, I'm so sorry,Dutch friends, but you're not as
great as you think you are. Ithink we should probably own up
to that. Not to mention,remember, I said it's a global
problem. The plastic soupFoundation, which I believe is
(25:53):
also Dutch, but just a websitethat I found, says the
Netherlands is the largestexporter of plastic waste in
Europe. Wow. And they're a tinycountry.
Wow. Okay. So they're, they'rehaving the same origin heading
the same problem? We are. Yeah.
And it sucks, because I waslike, maybe they have some
(26:16):
solution. The Dutch? Yeah.
I mean, obviously, they're doingbetter in terms of like, overall
waste production. Management usis not doing well. But
you know, they have a differentmindset to it is it is very much
(26:36):
like reduction first, but yeah,they're not like, I don't know.
They're not perfect. And, yeah,there's still issues. Yeah. So
that was kind of sad, but it'sfine. The Dutch, the Dutch have
been demoted. I know.
One last thing. And then I'mgoing to get into my granola
(26:57):
rating. Okay, but I'm going todo my granola rating before I go
into, like, where do we go fromhere? Okay. And we're at 30
minutes. Hopefully, this doesn'ttake all night.
But I think this is worthdevoting some time to so
basically, one last thing. Hetalks about chemical recycling,
(27:18):
which is a different way you useheat or chemical solvents to
break down plastics. And itturns into like an oil like
mixture or the basic chemicals.
And of course, industry leaderssay that the mixture can be made
back into plastic pellets. Andthat it's better than any other
way that we recycle plastic.
(27:39):
Yeah, but environmentalists sayit's a distraction. So it's
unknown. That's a very newthing. So maybe that will help
in the future. I don't have thatmuch faith. But you know,
someone that I was reading said,we can't rule anything out. And
that's true. Yeah. We'll keep onkeepin on, I guess.
(28:00):
My granola rating. Okay. I havea feeling I know what it's gonna
be. Do you because are you goingto say one? Yeah. Okay, zero.
Well, that's the thing. I had togo with zero. We don't even have
a word for that. But I foundone. Oh, okay. I'm calling it
(28:20):
waterlogged.
I like that. It's like, it'sbasically the granola pack the
great granola patch floating inthe ocean.
Yeah, so if you are new here, werate each each system or product
on a scale of one to fivegranolas and obviously crunchy
granola is better than soggygranola. So one is soggy. But
(28:44):
this is worse than soggy.
Absolutely waterlogged. Because,one, the plastics and oil
industry has lied to us fordecades and plastic recycling is
not sustainable economically orenvironmentally. Number two, the
purpose of the plasticsrecycling industry is to prop up
the industries to continuecreating single use plastic and
(29:04):
getting their products on theshelf. Right. It shouldn't be on
the consumer to solve and thesecompanies are making money and
taking zero responsibility 100%Three, we can only recycle
plastics a few times, maybe onlyonce. Number four, it's a global
issue. Western countries areshipping our plastic waste to
less developed countries andpolluting the hell out of their
(29:26):
land and water contributing tothe corruption creating a black
market and not takingresponsibility for any of our
shit.
So that's my sort of TLDR toolong didn't read granola rating.
Okay for everybody who justwants to skip ahead.
Cheese. Right. The question iswhere do we go from here? Yes,
(29:51):
okay.
Okay, buckle up.
So, reduce, reuse recycle. Inthat order.
(30:14):
I had my friend Julia asked me,am I, we were talking about this
as I was doing my research andcrying.
But she asked him if I'm goingto keep recycling my plastic and
I couldn't answer her because Iwas like, I don't know if it's
worth it. Luckily, John Oliverhas a helpful answer. Oh, good.
And he says, Even recyclingplastic while it may be 90%,
(30:36):
more pointless than you assumedcan still have modest
environmental benefits. Fair.
Okay. And the week that articleI use clarifies to say if you
sort the right kinds of plasticsinto your recycling bin, okay.
Yep, I believe that, yeah. Quitwith a wish cycling. Yes,
exactly. So my friend Julia hada really good idea that she said
(31:01):
it should be on our government'sto stop offering plastics,
recycling, and call it call itout on it's bullshit. But like,
so many people are bought intoit, or at least plastics
recycling, in that singlestream, throw everything in a
bin kind of situation. But somany people are bought into it.
And I they really don't. I don'tthink people could handle it. If
(31:24):
they couldn't recycle or atleast feel cycle you feel weird.
Yeah, you do. Ya.
So the proposed solutions, thereare 123. Okay, so really three
proposed solutions. And one ismy favorite. But we'll start
(31:46):
with the circular economy. AndI'm not saying this is bad. To
be honest, I didn't have enoughtime because this was a really
big episode. I didn't haveenough time to research fully
into the circular economy. So I,I just wanted to really give a
definition. But this is like oneproposed solution. So it's
basically like making like, itsounds making a circle out of
(32:09):
the, out of the use ofresources. So right now we take
resources from the naturalworld, use them and dispose of
them. In a circular economy. Wereuse the resources rather than
consuming them. So we createreusable, plastic and redesign
plastic with recycling. I mean,it says recycling in mind, I
(32:30):
don't think that's helpful. Butwell, I mean, if the idea of
being able to reuse it, thatmakes sense. Yes. And we design
it to like, we design ourtechnology or our products to
make repairs easy and reusing asmuch existing material as
possible. Yeah. Upcycling, Imean, what even more
(32:51):
technologically advanced thanthat we like reverse engineer
our plastic, right to berecyclable, basically. Like,
with minimal processing, youknow, right. Yeah, that or just
make it like, not everything hasto be thrown away. Yeah,
another, okay. So the circulareconomy is sort of its own
(33:13):
thing. And everything can kindof relate to each other. But one
other idea on reducing theamount of plastic we use is to
make it a personal decision, andreduce our personal usage right
back on the consumer. Yes. Andso I found this blog and book
called my plastic free life, andthis person started the blog
(33:37):
just as a personal thing. Andthen it's really kind of
exploded, and they give us 100steps that we can take. So they
say like choose a few to getstarted and take time to build
like, carry your own takeoutcontainer, carry a water bottle,
bring your own produce bags tothe grocery store. These are all
really, actually very goodideas. No, I know they are an
(34:01):
easy, you just have to remember,right? So then buy bread that
come doesn't come in plasticbags, get milk and returnable
glass bottles, DIY yourcleaners.
We can help you with that. Weknow a whole season about that.
So the problem with that, andit's not that I disagree with
any of that. And I had the samefeeling when I was reading this
(34:25):
book, How to Give Up plastic.
And it was saying basically,like throw out all your I mean,
this is a paraphrase. And I'mnot even trying to insult the
author or accuse him ofanything. It's really just a
commentary on the the generalconsensus is like throw out all
your plastic stuff and buy newstuff to replace it.
(34:45):
And there are multiple problemswith that. But one of the big
problems and I this New Yorkerarticle that I just read from a
couple of days ago, highlightedit with a Danish Environmental
Protection Agency study.
From 2018, this study looked atdifferent kinds of shopping
bags. So they compared plasticbags to paper bags to cloth
(35:07):
bags. And they analyze thelifecycle impacts in terms of
like, environment, climatechange, ozone depletion, human
toxicity, ecosystem toxicity,resource depletion, they looked
at all sorts of stuff. And itturns out in order for other
kinds of bags to be, as outsorry to have a lower
(35:28):
environmental impact than aplastic bag, a paper bag would
have to be used 43 times.
There's no way it could survive.
That's when we're thinking reYeah, okay. Cotton tote would
have to be used 7100 times 7100Time to offset all of the
(35:51):
environmental indicators. That'sa plastic tote, a cotton tote.
Oh, a cotton tote. Wow. Like youthink of cotton is good. I know.
I know. So many cotton.
Everybody gives them out likethis. Give me a frickin tote
bag. I have like me a stash inmy trunk that like I will take
grocery shopping with otherpeople. Because I'm like, You're
gonna forget your bags. Andguess what? I've got them smart.
(36:13):
And that contributes to your7100 dimes. Yeah, I know.
Because it's all my friends usethem to know. But the good news
is that's to offset all of theenvironmental indicators
together. Okay, but you onlyhave to use it 52 times to
offset the climate changeportion of it. So if we're
really focusing on climatechange, which is sort of
personally what I want to focuson. Yeah. 52 times is
(36:35):
attainable. That's once a week.
Right? That is exactly whatI mean. Yeah. Yeah. So but but I
found that so interesting,because it's like, I knew that I
had heard that in the past. LikeI talked about producing paper
takes a shitload of water. Ittakes it uses chemicals, it
does. Forests, for like, yeah.
(37:01):
So I found that reallyinteresting. And throwing out
all your plastic stuff andreplacing it with non plastic
stuff. I'm not necessarily surethat's the right yeah, direction
you want to go probably betterto just use your plastic stuff.
Again, be very careful aboutwhat plastic stuff you get and
reuse it. Right. Right. That'sthe thing. And it's so hard to
(37:24):
do. Like, I think I told you, Ialmost had a panic attack
grocery shopping. Yeah, like,can't get Yes. Is it possible?
Yeah. And, and that's anotherthing. So this New Yorker
article says is to make asignificant dent in plastic
waste, we it will probablyrequire not just substitution,
but in elimination. And thatmeans elimination of
(37:47):
stuff. Not just replacing thatstuff, but eliminating not
needing it. Yeah, yeah. So like,you walking around your grocery
store, you can only use yourarms.
I don't know. I don't know whatthat would look like. But well,
yeah, I mean, okay, well, or youonly buy? You grow your own
(38:08):
food, you know, right. And youdon't need your
bins. Yeah. I mean, that's,that's rough. That's that's,
that is not sustainable foreveryone. But that is an option.
Yes. So then this, this NewYorker article says if the much
of a contemporary ofcontemporary life is wrapped up
in plastic, and the result ofthis is that we are poisoning
our kids, ourselves and ourecosystems, then contemporary
(38:31):
life may need to be rethought.
But I have a question for you. Iwanted to get your take on this.
So people have said, like, oh,let's go back to how our
grandparents did it. And thatactually would solve our plastic
problem. And I do agree withthat, to a large extent tin cans
and glass bottles. Exactly.
(38:51):
However, do you think we canmanage going back to the good
parts of our grandparents life?
Because let's be honest, theyweren't all good. If women also
work outside the home, there isthere is my issue. convenience
we have. It's a thing like wetalked about all the time. I saw
an argument on Facebook oncebecause I'm old and I use
(39:14):
Facebook. Thank you. We do abouthow bad Amazon is, economically,
package wise, you know, butsomeone said, Look, I'm a
working mom, and my husbandworks. And when I run out of
something, and I can just clicka button on Amazon and it's
there the next day and I don'thave to do the brain work of
shopping for it or you know,like that's worth something. So
(39:35):
you're right. I think we don'tlive in an economic situation
where you can have a person inyour home who is committed to
doing all of this literal labor.
Oh, absolutely. You know,thoughtfulness, the mindfulness.
I mean, we all kind of hoped thepandemic would be this giant
(39:58):
shift in our room.
ality about what we value. Andthere's just been this drive, I
think the whole Well, you got tocome back into the office is
this drive by wealthyindividuals? Well, it will be
corporations to try and getthings back the status quo
because if we don't consume andwe don't drive, and we don't
(40:21):
work 90 hours a week and neversee our children, you know, we
can't create this consumerculture that drives our economy
and really does drive at thebottom of it, I hate to say it,
but our standard of living, we,we live in a, in a society where
100 years ago, you needed a cookto cook all your meals or you
know, and that would be a stayat home mom in the 50s You know,
(40:42):
because you needed someone tomanage the household like that.
And what we have now is fastfood or plastic wrapped things
at the grocery store, you canjust pop in the microwave, you
know, and, and that is tosupport our lifestyle, it's it's
one less thing we have to thinkof we all have a chef for
ourselves, in some sense inMcDonald's, you know, or like
even home chef or those like,yeah, reordered. So options. And
(41:07):
it is kind of I hate to get on asocial justice train on this,
but it does punish the poor tosay that it is their job, you
know, you need as a as a anindividual contributor to
society, we need to return tothese inconvenient life modes.
And there's no way that a personwho works three jobs at minimum
(41:29):
wage could ever have the time todo that. And that's that my I
agree that it punishes women. Itpunishes lower income women,
single moms. I mean that, again,we're asking the people with the
least resources to do the mostwork again.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's thething. It's like a lot I see on
(41:49):
Instagram a lot like women whohave chosen to start
homesteading and working at homeworking on their home and just
sort of like baking bread fromscratch and all these things.
And it's like, all sounds soidyllic, but it's just like,
it's a sacrifice. I mean, yeah.
And I think about it when I'mgoing into a grocery store. I'm
like, Okay, if I didn't want tohave plastic, let's say, bread.
Okay, bread will say bread, likeso I'm going to throw it out
(42:15):
there. My twin sister, who youknow, is my green living
goddess.
She has three kids, she works afull time job as a rocket
scientist, so does her husband,and they bake their own bread.
And he brews his own beer. Andthey grow garden and you know,
(42:35):
they buy in bulk. So they don'thave as much plastic and you
know, all these things theymake. It's very intentional.
Yeah. And they don't have anymore time than I do. Yeah. But
then you think about like, okay,tortilla chips, for example.
Yeah, I could theoretically getcornmeal in a paper sack, roll
out my own tortillas cut, slicethem up and coat them or just
(42:58):
not eat tortilla chips. Butlike, I like tortilla chips.
And salsa, man. It's one of mygyms for sure. And then fry them
up and make them but that withevery single product like
cereal, I can never have cereal,pasta. Pasta. I have to make it
by hand macaroni and cheeseevery time. No. Yeah. It's like,
you can do that with one thinglike make bread make beer or
(43:19):
whatever. And if that's fun foryou, that's awesome. But I'm
assuming she's not making herown tortilla chips as well as
her own. Yeah, like every Yeah,it's it's so sacrifices you make
and it's Yeah, for sure. We dolive in a world you know. That's
another thing. How often didyour grandmother eat tortilla
chips? Right?
(43:40):
Absolutely never are like,you know, I have macaroni and
cheese out of a box. You know?
That's true. It is one of life'sgreat pleasures. Yeah. But it
just kind of ridiculous that Iexpect to have all of my
luxuries at all times because Idon't want to go without
tortilla chips. Yeah, but thereis something to be said for on
(44:02):
some level, you have to weighwhat luxuries matter to you. On
some level, we have to bewilling to sacrifice luxuries
and conveniences now, beforethey are forced away from us
because of unsustainability ofthese luxuries of these
luxurious lifestyles. Yeah,maybe but it's also like what I
have to sew my own clothes. AlsoI have to you know, it's just
(44:25):
there's so much into it that isconvenient in our lives. Yeah,
but I yeah, I just really wantedyour take on that because I was
like, oh my god, it's just sucha different world. Yeah, it's a
complete mind shift. And it's,yeah, I'm not I'm not ready to
give up Amazon. You know, okay,I'm not. Yeah, well, and that's
(44:45):
the other thing is like none ofthis. None of this can
sustainably in our lives be anall of a sudden decision. I
think everything has to begradual, but at the same time,
and this goes back to my thirdand small glimmer of Hope
(45:12):
my third solution proposedsolution is, it's not all on us,
and it shouldn't have to be no.
So I learned from John Oliverthat there is such a thing as
it's called extended producerresponsibility, or also known as
the polluter pays principle. Oh,yes.
(45:41):
Okay, so the idea is that itmakes companies pay for the
pollution that they create,without coming like a carbon
tax, right, like.
So the idea is to make companiespay for pollution. And it forces
companies to either create theinfrastructure and the markets
(46:03):
to recycle the waste that theycreate, or banned them ban these
companies from creating theproducts to begin with. Okay. I
mean, yeah, I think economicdrivers, you know, there would
always be loopholes would be myproblem. I'm just such a cynic
about our culture. No, I tellthe techno feudalism that we
(46:25):
live in that those with moneyare always going to find a way
to skirt these things and sellus a bag of goods that is not
good for us. Well, hey, it'ssomething it's at least like
tonight's conversation going,yeah, maybe these companies
should have more responsibilityin the game. So yeah, they're
putting it out there. Theyshould, you know, they should
have to lie in the bed theythink. Exactly. Take care of the
(46:48):
children they're making. Thatsounds bad.
So many strike that strike that.
Something wrong withillegitimate children. Okay. So
can I take responsibility for anacclaimed job so much unpaid
child support? Well, does unpaidchild support? Yes, deadbeat dad
companies? Yes, deadbeatparents.
(47:10):
So it turns out that the US isone of the only developed
countries without an extendedproducer responsibility. And
it's that voluntary, our ouridea that people are going to do
the right thing because they'resupposed to, and not because
they've been conditionedotherwise. Yeah, I don't even
think it's that I think it'smore that there's too much
(47:31):
pressure from the plasticsindustry, from the oil industry,
that our politicians feel it'snot even that we have faith that
they're going to do the rightthing. It's more like, if we
made this mandatory, I'm notgoing to get reelected. Right.
So yeah. All right. So here'sthe thing. So some of the
(47:51):
Democrats are actually makingsome moves, including Bernie
Sanders, who, I don't know howyou feel about him. But he's
still, he's still out there. Sothere's the break free from
Plastic Pollution Act, which wasintroduced in the Senate in
2021. From Bernie Sanders and abunch of other Democrats. He's
the only one that I recognize,and it's only been introduced.
(48:13):
So it's like, still in theworks. 2021 It's been two years
people.
It hasn't gone anywhere. Itdoesn't mean it won't. But it's
something to keep an eye on.
Because it's, it seems like asolution, it seems like an
option to at least improve thesituation. But as states do,
when the federal governmentfails to act, four states
(48:36):
enacted their own laws, theirown EPR laws, mean Oregon,
Colorado and California. Okay,so they put they were like,
Screw it, we're just putting ourown laws in place. Illinois,
Connecticut, New York,Massachusetts, Hawaii, and
Washington are all at leastdiscussing it. But it may be
(48:56):
stalled. But they're stillchatting about it. At least. I
looked at Maryland where I liveand we
we have a Democrat governor, buthe chose to study it rather than
implement it. And so street credI'll have his cake and needed to
(49:18):
pretty much he's like, we'regonna take a look at this as
well. How about you just readlike four pages of a brief and
decide? So it's an option? It'slike a maybe here? I don't know,
but I'm gonna keep an eye on itfor sure. So like, look up EPR
laws coming through the pipelinein your state? Because
(49:41):
I'm very disappointed when Ilooked them up in Texas. Sure. I
don't know about Texas, but Ihave a feeling but that doesn't
mean it's impossible. There'salways hope. Okay, that looks
like there was a bill text anact relating to a program for
the recycling of computerequipment. Okay. Okay. Yeah.
I'm Delve Oh, it's a computercycling build a Dell back
(50:03):
actually in 2007, but I don'tknow.
I know. Yeah, I think I readthat EPR some of it does focus
on plastics. Not pot. Sorry. No.
Tech. Tech. Yeah. Yeah. So Imean, because that is a huge
polluter that we don't talk hugeproblem. Yeah. Apple.
(50:25):
So that's it. Okay. That wasonly an hour. Yeah, that's not a
bad. No. I mean, and there'ssome hope there. I mean, I
agree. I think. I think the tideis turning and I think people
The secret's out. No, nobodythat I have spoken to and I do
live in a little educatedbubble. You know, nobody that
I've spoken to is is shockedthat plastic recycling is green
(50:49):
hooey.
I was shocked. To the extentthat I think that may be the
case, but I think the tide isturning for sure. Yeah, well,
no. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I don'tthink anybody's using plastic
and feeling good about it. No,no, I mean, me the new smoking
give a shit. But yeah, somepeople don't. But it's to do
care. I don't think they'relike, Oh, this is fine. Yeah, I
(51:10):
agree. Well, thank you this.
This is actually a really greatsegue into next week's topic.
Oh, what is it I forget. EcoFriendly junk collection. We're
looking into Bridwell. I'm soexcited. Yeah. And I'm excited
about this one too. I thinkit'll be a nice palate cleanser.
Thank God.
We really needed it. We do. Wedo after our waterlogged
(51:34):
plastics. Yes. the grossest ofall gross granola ratings. That
is, by far the worst we've had.
So far. Sogood, but nothing is worse than
that. Man. We're gonna have tocome up with a real doozy of a
word. Yeah.
So please, God, don't let anyworse? I hope not. Yeah, it's
less than we've hit the bottomwhere there's only up uphill
(51:54):
from here. Thank God. So yeah,hopefully it was helpful. I
think it's definitely helpedopen my eyes. And I think the
biggest takeaway would be like,don't try not to have a panic
attack in the grocery store.
Because I think it's all verygradual. It's all very slow.
Yeah, look up those EPR laws inyour state and try to push them
through. I truly don't know howthat happens. But write a letter
(52:16):
to your friends write a letter.
Yeah. To your your congressman,Congress, people your
representatives. Yep. Yeah, cuzit's like, this is all honestly,
this is all that I want in mylife. Like if that happened, I
would die a happy woman. Truly,because it's always in Java and
me. You've heard it here. Theway to make Tiffany Verbeck
(52:39):
happy is to get this passed. Soplease, God, because it's like
I've always been so frustratedat the fact that companies just
get away with Yeah, her. Yeah.
Literal planet murder. Yeah. SoDeathstar.
Okay, well, all right.
(52:59):
If you like our content or hateour content, please follow us.
Click that follow buttonwherever you get your podcasts
and subscribe. Or leave us arating. It's a great way to let
other people know who we are.
And my mom can only do so muchof her friends.
Thanks, Mom.
(53:19):
Only so many reviews that onephone can handle. Yeah, yeah. So
yeah, yeah, reviews are sohelpful for a podcast. So 100
reviews, if you if you like us,maybe if you hate us, just go
away. Don't leave a one starreview. But no, no. I mean, if
we got enough one star reviews,maybe it would be like shooting
the moon, you know, and peopleare saying what is this horrible
(53:41):
pod? But don't think thealgorithm works that way. So the
algorithm has no sense of humor.
It only shows high star ratings.
So if you hate us, give us afive star rating so you can get
all your friends to hate us toreverse psychology to everyone.
Yeah. Yeah. Love it. All right.
Well, I will talk to you nextweek. I'm excited to hear about
red whale. Yeah. Can't wait totalk about it. Thanks. Okay.
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