On the Path to Forgiveness: An Inspiring Story of Love, Loss and Resilience

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Brace yourself for a heart-wrenching journey through grief, jealousy, and forgiveness as we converse with Naja, a 60-year-old translator from Denmark. Delicately navigating through an emotional labyrinth, Naja shares how her life took an unexpected turn after her husband's cancer diagnosis, the turbulence introduced by his ex-girlfriend's involvement, and the profound anxiety that enveloped them. This isn't just Naya's story; it's an honest portrayal of the human spirit grappling with the complexities of emotions when faced with a life-threatening illness in a loved one.

In the throes of her husband's illness, Naja found herself walking a tightrope of loyalty, boundaries, and conflict of interest. As the ex-girlfriend entered their life, an emotional whirlwind ensued, stirring up unresolved feelings and straining their relationship. But this narrative isn't just about surviving the storm; it's about the aftermath, the unfinished business, the longing for reconciliation, and the path to forgiveness that Naja courageously embarked on, even after her husband's abrupt departure.

As we reach the climax of Naja's story, she takes us through her emotional journey of forgiveness. Influenced by the work of Anita Moorjani, she grapples with her husband's past actions and bids him a final farewell. This isn't just a story; it's a testament to the power of grace, mercy, personal growth, and the transformative strength of forgiveness. Listen closely as Naja illuminates the resilience of the human spirit, revealing its capacity for growth and healing, even under the most daunting circumstances.

This deck is a labor of love. It's a 44 card oracle deck that's about connecting you to your loved one in spirit. The deck comes with a companion digital guide that gives you an affirmation, a reflection, and an activity for the day.

Check it out at https://stan.store/grief2growth/p/oracle-deck

You can send me a text by clicking the link at the top of the show notes. Use fanmail to:

1.) Ask questions.
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Can't wait to hear from you!

I've been studying Near Death Experiences for many years now. I am 100% convinced they are real. In this short, free ebook, I not only explain why I believe NDEs are real, I share some of the universal secrets brought back by people who have had them.

https://www.grief2growth.com/ndelessons

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey everybody, this is Brian.
I'm back with another episodeof Reef to Growth.
Today I've got a reallyinteresting story for you by a
woman who goes by Naya and,because of the nature of her
story, she's chosen to remainanonymous.
But she does want to share thisstory with you because it's
really important to learn aboutcomplicated grief, unresolved

(00:23):
conflict, forgiveness, all thosethings.
When it comes to dealing withthings when we lose someone.
That's complicated.
So Naya is 60 years old, shelives in Denmark, she works as a
translator and again, we'regoing to talk about complicated
grief, unresolved business witha deceased love when this case
happens to be her husband andworking through that towards

(00:45):
forgiveness and peace of mind.
So, with that shortintroduction, I'd like to
introduce you to Naya.
So, naya, if you would pleasetell me the story of what
happened with you and yourhusband.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Well, it is a long story.
What happened was, let's see,six years ago almost, my husband
had, well, he had been feelinga little bit ill and went

(01:18):
through some tests and wethought he was going to have a
gallstone operation.
And then they just did onefinal scan and we were going to
have resorts of that and Idecided to go with him.
And I remember, just beforeleaving the house I glanced at

(01:39):
myself in the mirror and I hadthis strange feeling of is this
before?
Because maybe a premonition, Idon't know?
They had postponed ourappointment time and I thought
that was strange.
Anyway, we went there and tothe hospital and he was told

(02:01):
that he had cancer and it wasprogressed and we should come
back one week later to hear ifit was operable.
And it turned out it wasn't, itwas incurable.

(02:22):
And he asked them so I'll diefrom this?
And they said yes.
So the thing is, from the verybeginning there was kind of no
hope in terms of maybe he couldrecover.
There was no hope at all.

(02:43):
And this was a shock, of course, and it was a shock in three
ways.
First thing was the obviousthing.
I mean, he was 55 at the timeand to me.
Of course I'm going to lose thelove of my life and how are we

(03:07):
going to cope with this?
And the second thing thatreally was a shock to me in the
middle of this was his reaction.
He totally panicked and I mean,I can understand that you panic

(03:31):
in some degree at this news andI think maybe his huge panic
had to do with One week youthink you're going to have a
gallstone operation.
Seven days later you're toldyou got cancer.
Seven days later you're goingto die from it.
So he kind of felt that I'll bedead in a second kind of thing.

(04:01):
And I want to talk a little bitabout this anxiety and panic
because it's kind of thebackdrop you have to remember
that backdrop from what elsehappened.
He described this fear wecalled it compared to once he

(04:21):
had been fine, he hated fine,and there's been some turbulence
and like for maybe a minute ora half he had truly believed
that he was going to die, theywere going to crash and he said
it's like that, it's just itdoesn't stop.

(04:41):
It's all the time I have thisfeeling and that's quite some
anxiety.
And we were kind of living hourby hour.
I mean, something happens totime when you're in a state like
that, like three hours can feellike a day, because there are

(05:05):
10,000 thoughts racing throughyour mind an hour and there's so
much to cope with, and I, ofcourse, wanted to be there for
him.
And that meant, I mean, whenyou were with someone so anxious
and such fear and fright, andit was tremendous.

(05:27):
And okay, he got some pills tokind of take, the antidepressant
or anti-anxiety pills.
Those kind of pills take someweeks to work.
So this state was really, it waseverything, and I tried to be
with him in that, I tried tocomfort him, I tried to just be

(05:52):
there, hold him and he wanted meto pray.
I've never done so much prayingin my life.
Just, you know, we were walking, restlessly, walking the
streets, going into any church.
We came by, praying, justmoving and trying to find maybe,

(06:17):
maybe there was 15 minutes aday where there was some kind of
peace and anxiety was there.
So this was really really heavy.
It was also one of it soundsstrange maybe, but it was one of
the most intimate and intensethings I've ever experienced

(06:38):
with another person, I guess,because when you're in so much
anxiety, all layers are peeledoff and you kind of you get some
moments of clarity and in somesense there's a complete honesty
, there's no facade.
Anyway, this was the situation.

(07:03):
The third thing that was reallya shock to me was that his ex
wanted to go all in from day oneand he wanted her to.
And especially the latter wasquite a shock to me because I

(07:28):
had no idea that she still meantso much for him and this
brought out an old jealousy ofmine.
And I must admit, in thatsituation, with everything we
had to deal with, jealousy wasthe last thing I wanted to deal

(07:50):
with at this time.
And maybe I should tell you alittle bit about my experience
with his ex, because they bottomline is she was a stranger to
me and that was part of why itwas so hard for me to have her

(08:15):
so close in this situation inparticular.
I think their relationship wasmaybe 20 years back, at least 10
years before he and I gottogether, and it wasn't very
long, less than a year and bythe time I got together with him

(08:39):
we were he was always arguingwith his ex and after a while,
after he and I got together,they kind of got along better
and started seeing each otherfrom time to time.

(09:01):
And of course I was curiousabout her who wouldn't be, and
he sort of kept us a bit apart,in a way to say it, to protect
me a little bit, because maybehe could be a little bit, I
don't know how to put it.
I mean, I would say from my ownexperience that she might have

(09:27):
probably a lot of good qualities, but she also had a quite busy
character, like a bit dominant,anyway it's.
I tried to get to know her andyou know we had mutual friends

(09:51):
before we were partying.
So I tried to get to know her,but she never showed any
interest in getting to know meand that's anyway, that's okay.
I mean, if you have a partnerand he's no longer your partner

(10:12):
and he gets a new partner, Imean there's no obligation to
feel any interest in that newpartner.
But the thing is, thanks beingthe way they were when he got
his diagnosis, I just didn'tunderstand how she could expect

(10:35):
me to find it okay when she hadnever sort of shown any interest
in getting to know me, or atleast I didn't understand that.
She didn't understand why Ifound it difficult, right, and
well, that's her and me.

(10:56):
That's one thing.
But the other thing is that myhusband didn't understand my
feelings and I would say I meanwe had been together for about
12 years at that time and it hadbeen sort of surfacing before,

(11:17):
so it couldn't be completely newto him how I felt that it was
problematic for me.
For instance, I mean hesuffered from recurring
depressions.
He had felt that for a lot ofyears and I knew that that
somehow also she maybe could bewould help him a little bit,

(11:41):
that it helped him to talk toher, which is fine.
But more problematic I found itthat sometimes, maybe if he and
I had a row which didn't happenoften, but when it happened,
usually same day or the dayafter, he would go to see her

(12:03):
and that made me very insecure.
So I had told him before, so itwasn't new to him.
But anyway, here you are in asituation where this person you
love very deeply and he's goingto die and he's in panic and you

(12:28):
want to be there for him, youwant to comfort him, you want to
do what's best for him.
So, while doing what's best forhim also meant included doing
things that were worst for me,so that's a catch 22.

(12:48):
I mean, I've never.
I'm not generally, generallyprone to jealousy.
I mean, he and I met each otherwhen we're in early 40s.
We both lived our own livesbefore that and of course,
you're aware that each thateveryone has a past and people
from the past.
So it's it's I mean, and but Imean I'm.

(13:14):
You know, I've never beensomeone who's gone around five
times a week asking do you loveme?
Do you love me?
I mean needing confirmation inthat way.
But but I had, because I hadalways felt that he did love me.
And and now, I think within 10days of this diagnosis, I find

(13:35):
myself asking him do you love me?
It just really didn't feel likehis number one person, I mean.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
Well, I think it's quite natural to be somewhat
jealous of our, of our husbands,our partners, ex, particularly
when they're reaching out tothem at a time where you want to
be intimate with him and youfeel like it's your time and you
and your time is limited atthat point.
So I think it's what you feltwas very natural.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, I think so too, and and others think so too.
But the thing was that she andhe were completely above
jealousy and and and it was like, well, that's something, that's

(14:30):
something you have when you're22.
I mean, in my opinion, jealousyhas no age, if it's usually
when, when, when you sayjealousy, people think of you
know like what do you call it asick kind of jealousy where,
where you get jealous justbecause your husband looks at a
woman on the street or somethinglike like un, un jealousy for

(14:55):
no reason.
Right Because of your owninsecurity, but but, but I mean,
I really truly believe this daythat the jealousy I felt was
for a reason.
There was a reason, becausethere was something Well, I put

(15:19):
it, quote unquote strange aboutthe relationship.
And much later, much, muchlater, I realized, by talking to
to other people in their circleof friends, I realized that

(15:41):
quite a few of them had wonderedfor years what was going on, in
a way because, yeah, well, it'scomplicated, but at that time I
didn't dare to ask anyonebecause I thought, I thought
that anyone in this circle offriends, everyone, was with,

(16:05):
friends with her too, becausethey used to go on some skiing
trips together, so they'd knowneach other for years.
It's just much later I realizedthat the others were a bit sort
of what do you call it?
They were wondering about thisrelationship and it got more

(16:27):
complicated maybe by the factthat I'm a very old friend of my
husband, also going way backafter my husband stopped being
with his ex.
Shortly after, within a year ortwo, this friend of his became

(16:53):
her partner and by the time myso they had, like they had been
seeing each other.
I often wondered how do you,how do you manage this?
I mean, you're with your friendand he's with your ex.
How, how do you go about that?
And and and it was things likewell, but when I'm with him I

(17:15):
don't talk, we don't talk abouther, and I don't know it was.
It was peculiar to me anyway.
But, I tried, I had tried to tohave an open mind about this.
I had tried to make space.
Make space because it's one ofthe things we did in our
relationship making space forthe other one to be who he or

(17:39):
she was.
So, but this was simply, atthis point in time, it was too
much for me and it was I mean,it was from day one like she was
one of the first persons youcall to tell it fair enough.
And then you said, she want tocome, she want to come by, can
she come by?

(17:59):
And she came by, and they werejust, I mean, she never came to
our house when he's sorry, itwas always somewhere else.
And and and we just came, comeback from the hospital with this
he's got cancer, you know.
And we were both devastated andand then I see these two people

(18:23):
sitting opposite me, you know,holding hands, looking each
other deep in the eyes.
Of course it's a specialsituation, I know that, but at
some point I just felt I mightas well not have been there.
It was very strange and then,but okay, you know, everything

(18:43):
is every.
Everyone has got their feelingson the outside and in a
situation like this.
So of course you, you react ina different way, you react more
slowly, or you know you're insomething and and I remember at
one point my, my husband, wentto the bathroom and I was

(19:05):
sitting here with this strangerand it simply didn't know what
to say to her.
And and then I I just saidsomething about because that's
one thing they had said at thehospital, that it was really
what do you call it?
Lucky in some way that thatthey hadn't gone on with the

(19:27):
goldstone operation, becauseonce they opened him they would
see the cancer and then the, thehow do you say the cancer
surgeons were at anotherhospital.
So so I kind of said, well,thank God that didn't happen.
Then, and maybe I repeated itonce because I didn't know what
to say to her.
She was kind of really talkingto me in a rude way, like like

(19:53):
in a bossy way, like yeah, yeah,yeah.
Now we don't have to worryabout what could have happened.
Now we have to look forward.
It was just like hey, come on.
I mean, I just started cryingand it just felt so cold.
Anyway, one.

(20:17):
Now this was quite a detailedfirst day.
Another thing in this is thatthis was just before Christmas
and we, he couldn't get anappointment with the oncologist
until January.
Like about, you know, theycould give him some chemo and to

(20:38):
prolong his life, you know.
And in this whole anxiety monthI was, I was really worried
that he might choose not to dothe chemo because he might just
want to get it all undone with.
I was also afraid that heshould jump from the balcony.

(21:01):
I was really, really, reallyworried.
And it was just before Christmasand she would call almost every
day and other other friends hadcalled, of course, and they had
also come by and talk, but theymight maybe call once a week.

(21:25):
She called almost every day andI was with this completely
frightened person and trying totalk to him, trying to find, you
know, little spots of light andall this and trying to make him
cope.
And then, if she called, it waslike to me, it was like I felt
it as a wedge coming in betweenus every time, because maybe I

(21:50):
was just just getting himsomewhere and she called and
then, okay, then he was all onher and that was really, and I
hated myself for it too, because, oh, why can't I just drop this
jealousy?
But nevertheless, this everytime, this contact weakened me
and I had so much to cope withand I really had to be strong

(22:13):
for him.
So it was really problematic.
And then, just before Christmas,we had never in all the years
together, we had never spentChristmas together and then we
do it on Christmas Eve.
You know that's the big nightand so, of course, not knowing
how long you had to live, and Ireally wanted to spend Christmas

(22:36):
with him.
And and he agreed I mean,either he had been with his
father or he had been at work onChristmas Eve.
And this year we decided to doit together at my mom's place.
And I said, could you pleaseask your ex not to call you at
Christmas?

(22:56):
Because I said we didn't wantto sit at my mom's place and her
suddenly calling and you know,I had to have this wage coming
in and and he, he agreed.
And and then he said to mecould you?
Now I called her, I told her notto call and she felt a little

(23:20):
bit strange and she was a littlebit upset.
Could you please write her aletter?
No, no, he didn't say that.
Could you please write her andexplain that her mail or
something.
And the last thing I wanted todo was to, you know, think about
her.
And he was really sort ofanxious and and like you know

(23:42):
the talk to him, I said does itreally mean that much to you?
Yes, please.
And when I sat down and startedto write an email to him, and
as I did this I realized thatall my saved up frustration, my
old, old jealousy, just kind ofcame out.

(24:04):
And but you know, I tried towrite, write it really politely
and okay, this one other thing Ihave, I have to say, which is
part of the story, it should besaid Shortly after they split up
way back, way back.

(24:24):
She had had cancer and at thattime my husband had really been
there for her, like coming along, sitting with her, just no
expectations, just being thereand helping her.
And of course she was very,very grateful for that and she

(24:45):
of course wanted to, you know,show her gratitude by being
there for him.
Now, which is, I understand, Iunderstand, great difference is,
of course, that when she wasill she was single and now, when
he was ill, he had a wife.
Yeah, absolutely so.

(25:06):
So I think there's some.
I mean, you have to weigh upsome things.
How can I best help someone?
Can I best help someone bykeeping a little profile for a
while.
Anyway, I wrote this letter toher and I told her I understand

(25:28):
that you're upset too of losinghim and you know who's going to
die, and it's beautiful with allthese people wanting to help us
.
But I have a problem with thisand it's about an old jealousy
of mine and I wrote to her Iwish I didn't have it.
But it comes from this and thisand you're a stranger to me and

(25:49):
you know, right now I need allmy energy for him.
So, kind of you know, askingher how do you put this firmly
but politely?
But to please know her place,step down and to not contact him
.
I mean to wait for him tocontact her, not calling all the

(26:12):
time, like for him to contacther.
And I also promised her to keepher, you know, up to date about
how things are going and lether know everything if one day
he couldn't let her know, and myhusband read this letter, so he

(26:35):
knew what I sent to her and Iwrote to her that he had read it
, you know so.
And then I send it off and then,oh God, she didn't enter in
until 10 days later.
10 days is a long time whenyou're in that state.

(26:55):
Anyway, she answered somethinglike I'm sorry about this, and
okay, I also offered her if shewanted to talk to me about this
thing with the jealousy, wecould do that.
But maybe she shouldn't talk somuch to my husband about it,
because he wasn't, he had enoughon his plate.

(27:16):
And when I got the answer, likeI mean also she was of course
sorry, but she didn't excuse herbehavior that first day at all,
which was something in a way Ineeded, but that's what it is.

(27:38):
And she said that she sort ofif you both want this, I respect
it.
And I was like okay, it was.
And then, well, soon after myhusband asked me, can she call

(28:01):
me again?
And and it's like, and this isthe catch 22, you know, because
if I said no, would he then sortof be sulking at me for the
rest of his time, or if I saidyes, it would rip me apart.

(28:27):
And anyway, I said yes because Ididn't know what to do and I
had, I had asked him because atone stage it was really like I
asked him you have to choosebetween her and me, because if I
have to be in this with you,you have to choose.
And I remember one evening Iasked him that and he said okay,

(28:54):
then I'll say goodbye to her,but then you can't leave me.
And he went into the street tocall her and Her line was busy.
He came back up and he said andthis isn't a good idea.
And in a way I knew it wasn't agood idea, but at that time I

(29:18):
just wanted her gone from mylife.
But of course, asking anotherperson to completely cut with
someone who means something tohim is can you ask another
person that in this situation?
You know it's complicated, it'snot black and white.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
It is complicated, but I have to interject here and
I think that every womanlistening will resonate with
what you're saying, will relateto what you're saying.
When you're with someone andthey're with their ex and
they're having that sort ofintimacy, you're going to be
jealous.
As I said earlier.

(30:02):
I think that's a naturalresponse.
But you tried as best you canto accommodate him, but you've
got your feelings as well.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
I think it depends, because I think it's possible to
have you know, I mean, if I hadknown her, if she had been a
person I liked, but myexperiences with her were not
pleasant and you could say thatdoesn't matter, as long.

(30:33):
I mean, I don't have to haveanything to do with her in
general in our life very little,but in this situation it really
mattered.
I mean, just to mention there'sactually another ex-affilus,
because actually I also went toschool with I mean back from
high school with my husband, andyou went back then and his

(30:59):
girlfriend back then was also mybest friend and we're still
friends today.
So it's not the question ofbeing an ex in itself, it's got
to do with respecting eachother's roles, so it's not the
ex in itself.
Anyway, I felt invaded so Itried to swallow it because I I

(31:28):
mean at one stage he said, oh,maybe I should.
I mean he said maybe I shouldjust go live somewhere else and
then you can come visit me.
And I completely couldn't copewith that because I mean I
wanted to be with him as much aspossible in the little time,
whatever time we had left.
So him moving out was also.
I couldn't see it as an option.

(31:49):
Maybe it would have been a goodidea.
I don't know in hindsight, butI couldn't cope then and I
wanted to take care of him.
So anyway, january came and we,we saw the oncologists and he
decided to do the chemo.
And well, we asked about theprognosis, because if you think

(32:17):
you're dead in two weeks, andthat's your state, you know.
And then, and the doctor said,well, he thought that at least
12 months, and that was.
I mean, the pills had startedworking a bit, and I think this
marriage kind of made my husbandsaid well, then, we might.

(32:40):
Then it looks as if we can havesome kind of everyday life, at
least for a while, you know.
And so we what do you call it?
We throw it on whatever.

(33:03):
And but I just he didn't wantany counseling.
I mean, I had asked him becausethis problem was so big between
us and I thought we should getsome I don't know what you call
it marriage counseling, or Ifelt it was necessary Because
there were some things here notdealt with, and his attitude was

(33:27):
like what's the use now?
I mean, again this, I'm dyingin a minute, you know.
And I wish he had thoughtdifferently about that, because
I'm not sure it would havehelped.
But he didn't want counselingand I said we have to and he

(33:50):
didn't accept my jealousy.
I mean that's really the thing.
If you go into marriage and youkind of say you're going to
love and honor each other andyou know for sickness and health

(34:12):
, all those things, to me it'sto honor someone also means to
respect their feelings.
I mean feelings.
We can't help feeling the waywe feel.
We can, we can help how wereact or act on them, but we

(34:33):
can't help the feelings we have.
It's out of our control, atleast the moment you have the
feeling it's out of your hands.
So, and you know, like if yousay to her, if you have a child
and the child is afraid of thedark and you're not afraid of
the dark, and you say to thischild that's ridiculous, there's

(34:55):
nothing to be afraid of, andyou talk the child into bed and
put out the light and close thedoor and leave the room, that's
not going to make that fear inthe child any smaller, you know.
On the contrary, on thecontrary.

(35:16):
So if someone is not, I meanyou can.
You can respect someone'sfeelings, even though you don't
understand them or you you findthem ridiculous for yourself,
you know.
But you have to respect thatsomeone else is somewhere else
and I mean, imagine that I hadsaid to him that his fear of

(35:40):
death was ridiculous, and anyway, I think.
I think you might say that'sbeyond comparison, but it's, hmm
.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
I think you said it very well your feelings are your
feelings.
We can we can choose how werespond or react to our feelings
, but we can't really controlour feelings directly.
And again, I think it's asituation where it's an ex
person and that you said youdon't know her very well, and
you're in a situation where yourhusband is dying.
Of course you're going to wantto want, you're going to want

(36:16):
privacy, you're going to havethat.
That time you have with himleft.
You want it to be as special aspossible.
So I think why, rationallyspeaking, maybe you know you
were trying to get out of theway and everything.
I can understand your feelingsfor absolutely a hundred percent
.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
Thank you.
I think, the actually it wasnot having the feeling and it
was not her in in her.
You know, in itself the worstthing was that he didn't respect

(36:56):
my feeling.

Speaker 1 (36:57):
He didn't choose you yes.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
Well, I think he couldn't choose that's a later
realization, but but I think hewas unable, and that's of course
scaring to realize, but butactually I think he was unable,
at least in that, in that statehe was in Right, and anyway, I

(37:24):
don't know where we go from here.
So, the only, the only, theonly, the only so kind of
counseling he wanted.
If you could talk about that ishe only wanted to talk to our
Vika, you know to your Vika.
Yeah, and and of course Vika isnot a psychologist, but you can

(37:53):
talk about death and dying and Ithink it it meant something to
him to have those talks.
However, he didn't want to talkto Vika about the jealousy
thing, but and I went with him,I mean I accompanied him and it
was quite precious to meactually, because my husband

(38:18):
wasn't very good at sharing histhoughts, so sometimes I only
learned about what was going onin his head when I heard him
talk to others, when someoneelse asked him something and he
answered.
So it's, it was valuable to meto to be at those talks, you

(38:42):
know going on, but I just haveto tell you this because I mean,
I tried to swallow all this butI simply couldn't cope and I
was falling to pieces threetimes a week about this jealousy

(39:02):
thing and in the end he saidhim not wanting us to go to
counseling together.
I mean, you know, group or whatdo you call it?
Marriage counseling?
He said, but then maybe youshould talk to.
There was the ex-husband's ex,the new ex like his, his old

(39:25):
friend.
They had recently divorced sohe could come and talk to me and
I said, well, okay, I'll try it.
And I talked to him about mywhole relationship,
non-relationship with his ex youknow, my husband's ex and and

(39:45):
he just just didn't give meanything.
I mean, all three of them werereally above this any
understanding of my feelings.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
Right right.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
And then, like a week later, I was still falling to
pieces about this and and sorry,and it was really so lonely, it
was so lonely not having youknow your feelings recognized.
Yeah, so, and then one, aboutone week later, he said then

(40:27):
then you have, then she'll haveto come here and you will have
to talk to her.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
Right, we're running a little short on time, so if we
could, could we move forward towhen, when your husband was
actually hospitalized, like Iknow there were some things that
happened when he washospitalized that that we we
need to really touch on.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
Well, okay, I'll try.
I'll try to force forward a bit.
I mean things weren't going well, but I was trying to hang in
there and I was trying toswallow things and basically you
could say I was sent off to seecounseling myself on my right

(41:08):
to sort out my that jealousything of mine.
I ended up doing counseling forthree years, not about the
jealousy but about the wholething, sure, anyway.
So I was trying to do that andI went with him to chemo and you
know and things.

(41:29):
The situation just wasn'tsustainable because he didn't
let me in.
And when you walk in somethinglike this every day, I mean it's
really hard for your self, forhis thing.
So at one point this isactually this is a long before

(41:58):
he was hospitalized, becausethat was much later we had had a
rough week and I had gone for awalk one evening just to talk
on the phone with my sister, andwhen I came back.
He had been drinking a littlebit and he said tomorrow I'll

(42:24):
move out.
And I was.
I just couldn't believe it andI said well, what do you expect
from me then?
And it's something about well,I expect you to, you know, take

(42:44):
care of the bills every month,and I mean, sort things out,
keep all the you know, all thesecretary work I'd been doing
for months besides the housework, besides everything.
And then he went to bed and Iwent to pieces, completely went
to pieces, because I tried sohard, and then he ends up

(43:07):
leaving me.
And next morning I went tochurch and I came back and he
had, I think, maybe hadn't quiterealized what he had said, I
don't know, but he had madearrangements to go Wednesday
with his ex and I it was reallysad I helped him pack some

(43:30):
things, you know, his medicineand all those things I had been
taking care of, and we were bothsad and I said what about your?
You have this favorite chair,do you want your chair?
And then he said, oh, but Ithink I might be coming back.
I guess I will at some point.

(43:51):
And that's just kind of aroller coaster thing with my
emotions.
I mean, you don't tell someoneyou leave and then you sort of
next day oh maybe I didn't meanit, I mean it was, I just I just
took him to have it and then,anyway, it was very, very sad,
we were both sad and he left.

(44:12):
When he came and picked him upand the next day it was, he was
going to get some answers for ascan this latest scan and I had
already made an appointment thatI would go with him or meet him
at the hospital for this.
So I went there with him andactually this scan was positive.

(44:35):
You know right, it looked goodand I still imagine this doctor
sitting there in front of twopeople who got this news and
just looked really sad for thetwo of them.
But anyway, that's how it goes.
And then we had a cup of coffeeoutside because he had to wait
for some things to come test,and then we had the, but he said

(45:00):
some things that just reallytriggered me and we had the
biggest fallout.
I mean, I got so angry and weparted in anger, both of us, and
I went home and I was justcrying and you do as if all this
, all this, this was six monthsin, you know, months of

(45:24):
suppressed emotion.
Just, I mean, I was angry for24, 7, for 10 days in a row.
I've never been so angry in mylife, I had so much anger.
I talked to the walls, I wasreally angry.
I was like, you know, finally,the lead of the you know.
Anyway, we were both sorry thatwe had parted this way.

(45:47):
We wrote, we texted each other,but I was still angry.
And a friend of his suggestedthat he moved to another friend
instead of his ex if he wantedto come back, and which was good
and he did, but anyway hefinally we met then after 10, 12

(46:12):
days and he finally agreed thatwe got some counseling, finally
, finally, finally.
And then we got some counselingat you know, the cancer, cancer
patients and their relatives,and we had about four sessions.

(46:34):
But he was I can't explain toyou this, but what came out in
those sessions?
It was just like it felt as ifmy whole life crumbled backwards
in front of my very eyes, likethings came out, like things are

(46:56):
lasting about through the yearsand never got clear arms to.
Suddenly I got to know thingsand I just felt more and more
that I'd been living on a lie,which I hadn't.
But this is what I felt at thetime and that I didn't feel any

(47:16):
love from him.
And I mean I remember afterthese sessions we went to a cafe
and talked on and he was justsaying some really mean and
vicious things and hardly anylove, and very angry with me and
still no understanding and Ijust couldn't.

(47:37):
I mean he wanted to come backbut I didn't dare because those
10 days of anger, when I finallyhad some space for myself, I
had realized what it had done tome to live with him under those
circumstances.
I still loved him, I stillwanted to be there for him, but
I felt I couldn't live with himand to him it was all or nothing

(48:02):
.
So after the last session hecame at the session he was very
determined and he, like he wasscolding the counselor for her
counseling he was.
He said I'm going to file fordivorce and I'm going to move my
things out later this week andoutside it was a very short

(48:25):
session Outside he told me tosay goodbye from him to my mom
and my sis and I said I wasreally crying.
I said please don't die with somuch hatred in your heart and
he was just so angry with me Ithink he shook hands with me for

(48:50):
goodbye and then he left andtwo days later divorce papers
were there and two days afterthat his friends and he came and
got all his things which I hadgotten ready for him and it was
just really total disaster.

(49:11):
And I remember when he left allthe friends had already left
the flat and when he left, saidgoodbye.
I said I really don't want tohelp you, even though I can't
live with you, and he saidthat's very difficult because
this is the most abominablething I've ever experienced.

(49:32):
And I remember when he wasgoing down the stairs he said
because he had been in the housefor a long time, he had called
my jealousy a demon, which wasalso very hurtful early on,
because he saw his own anxiety,his fear, as a demon.

(49:53):
He made this parallel that myjealousy was a demon like I was
possessed.
And when he left that day hesaid there is no demon, it's
simply you.
And that was the last time Isaw him for well, I thought
forever.
But turned out differently.
So clean, cut, divorce.

(50:15):
And he didn't want to have anycontact with me, none whatsoever
.
Right the fury, this hatred.
I was just cut out of his life.
In a way, he made himself deadfor me before he died, and this

(50:37):
was not right.
I mean, this was I knew, Ithink.
About a month later I realizedthat what I tried to make him
understand he was literallyunable to understand.
He was unable, and whether thatwas because of the fear or you

(51:02):
know, some deficiency he wasborn with or some, he was a
damaged child.
He had a very rough childhood.
I didn't know, but the fact washe was unable, and so I
regretted that I had kind ofbeen.
I understood.
I understood why he had feltthat I was just banging him on

(51:25):
his head with blame because hedidn't understand it Right, and
that meant that I could forgivea lot of things, but I couldn't
live with the way we parted.
So I started writing this letterto him, explaining and really

(51:49):
not blaming and asking forreconciliation, because I felt
we had always loved each other.
I still believed in that loveand also thanking him for all
the things I wanted to thank himfor, which was something we had
never had time for, becauseeverything was conflict and

(52:12):
crisis and jealousy and hatredand anger, and we had never had
this quiet time.
I didn't dare to post itbecause I was afraid she would
get the letter, so I left it.
I left it with his lawyer justbefore Christmas and texted him

(52:37):
short text saying I'd left thelast things at his lawyers and I
didn't know what to do.
And then by the end of Januarythe divorce was settled and I
got this email from his lawyer.

(52:58):
I mean there was some moneythat had been transferred and
the lawyer just announced thisto me.
And then he also wrote that hehad been asked to tell me that
my husband didn't ex-husband.
I still call him my husband,but my husband didn't want any

(53:18):
contact with me whatsoever,including my participation in
his funeral.
And I was like I mean, eversince he left, ever since he
left, I've been praying for himevery day.

(53:40):
That day I found it quite hardbecause I thought that his
hatred really was it reallybeyond death.
But to this day I don't know ifthat message came from him or

(54:01):
from his ex.
I suspect maybe it came fromhis ex because she was probably
the one dealing with the lawyer,because he didn't deal with
those things himself.
But it was hard.
So all in all, about a yearafter, if you want me to fast

(54:26):
forward there's a lot of thingsin between.
But about a year after he movedout, I heard from other friends
that he was now not staying withher but staying in, well, this
little house of his in the woods, and I thought if I can ever

(54:58):
talk to him maybe it's now,because I know we can't deal
with the two of us at the sametime.
So I called him, I took a lotof courage to call him and I had
even warned him with a textsaying I'm going to call you
tomorrow.
You can think about whether youwant to pick up.
Anyway, he picked up and itturned out he'd never seen my

(55:21):
text and he was quite surprisedand asked me what I wanted.
And I, a while, called and Isaid I wanted to hear whether he
had read my letter.
And it was like what letter?
He didn't know anything of it.

(55:43):
And the thing is it was as ifthis hatred was gone and he
thought that I was moving onwith my life and I wasn't.
I mean, my life had stopped,more or less, and I asked him if

(56:06):
I could call him again and hedidn't say any clear yes or
clear no, which I thought okay,I can do it.
I mean we talked about forabout an hour and then I talked
to him.
I tried again two weeks later.
He didn't pick up and thenthree weeks after that I talked

(56:27):
to him again and that was when Italked to him for an hour and a
half and that conversation initself kind of saved my sanity
because it was just like the manI used to know.
He was just like you know.

(56:50):
We had a really beautifulconversation and we even laughed
and talked about things.
I mean, okay, I avoidedconflict stuff, but it was
really like the old days and itwas so strange, so beautiful and
so strange.
And he told me that he was veryill and he was going back to go
to hospital the next day.

(57:11):
So I asked him if I could visithim at the hospital and he was
kind of hesitant but I said I'llcall him.
And then sometimes later, a fewdays later, he was hospitalized
, as you say.
And well, I think you have.

(57:32):
What do you call it when youhave this?
The blood, the clogs, the vein,I don't know what it's called.
Where does it go?

Speaker 1 (57:41):
Yeah, one clot yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
Yeah, so he had that in his leg and he had a lot of
fluid in his body.
Anyway, they fixed him up a bitand I called him two to three
times there but she was kind ofcamping at the hospital so
sometimes when I talked to him Isensed she was in the room and

(58:05):
we could talk so freely.
Not a lot of那我們 no-transcript.
Yeah, I called him one nightand he wasn't feeling well and I
said, okay, I'll call youtomorrow.
And you said better the dayafter and we agreed on that and

(58:27):
hung up and then like four hourslater in the middle of the
night I suddenly got this textfrom her saying you have to
understand he doesn't want tohave any contact with you and
you know, stay away andunderstand this and this text
can't be answered.

(58:49):
I got furious because I justmade this other appointment with
him and I didn't know if itcame from him or not.
It turned out she went behindhis back because then the day
after I called him and I said Ihope it's okay.
I called you and he said yes,of course we agreed on that and

(59:12):
I said okay, and he sounded verydetermined and he couldn't talk
because the doctors were comingout and I said, okay, we'll
talk later.
I called him in the afternoonand then and he had sent her out
of the room, and then he toldme, this time politely, that we

(59:40):
shouldn't have any contactanymore.
And I was devastated, reallydevastated, that he could do it
twice to me.
So that's kind of theculmination of two years of an

(01:00:01):
emotional state of emergency.

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
So when he ultimately did pass, were you involved in
his funeral arrangements at all?

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
Well, the thing is, I actually got to see him.
I don't know, miracles happened, miracles happened.
I think he was after this,maybe two weeks later.
Oh, by the way, he had told mehe was being discharged and

(01:00:37):
would make arrangements to go toa hospice.
He was very ambiguous in hisway of talking to me, because in
one sentence he says I'm goingto a hospice and now I have to
find someone to take care of me,as if he was calling out for me
.
It was so strange.

(01:00:59):
Anyway, he was discharged andtwo weeks later I heard from
friends that he was admittedagain and he was in a very, very
bad state.
Actually, he was admitted onhis birthday, I think, and I
thought okay, this is it, whatam I going to do?
I had to see him, I simply hadto see him and I didn't want to

(01:01:24):
go there and crash gate crashingand making scenes because I
knew she was there 24 seven aswell.
So what to do?
And I was up all night andwondering, and then in the
morning, early morning, I calledthe hospital to mortem and I
talked to a night nurse and Iexplained this whole thing to

(01:01:44):
her and I said I don't know whatto do because he can't deal
with the two of us at the sametime.
But I really want to see him.
And she said she told me tocall when the day shift had
arrived.
So I called three hours laterand then it turned out and this
is the miracle this night, nurse, she had gone to this room

(01:02:10):
while his ex was in the showerand she had asked him if she
wanted to fill in a form.
You know, if you're not closerelative, you're not allowed to
hear how things are going.
It's confidential.
So you can fill in a form tosay this person is allowed to

(01:02:31):
know how things are going whenshe calls and she's also allowed
to see me when I'm dead.
And he had signed it.
He had signed it and I was sosurprised.
And then the day after I waswell, it comes to me with my,

(01:02:56):
with the wicker, sorry.
And I got a call from thehospital, kind of summoning like
saying well, if you want to saygoodbye, you should come soon.
And I said, okay, you got tohelp me then with his ex, that
we don't sort of have, you know,bump into each other, and

(01:03:20):
that's what happened.
I mean, they helped, theyhelped.
And I went there and he was.
I hadn't seen him for 15 months,physically, but the strange
thing is that I in a way didn'tcare because it was the mental

(01:03:45):
thing that was important.
But this time I really feltdriven and it was important to
show him that I had neverstopped loving him.
But he was heavily medicated,dozing off, and the thing is, at

(01:04:07):
this time he had no mimic, like, maybe because of the
medication, his face there's nofacial expressions and he had
this gray veil over his eyes sowe couldn't really tell how he
felt.
But I told him that I was thereand I asked him it was okay and

(01:04:31):
he said I asked him severaltimes and one time he said yes,
and then I just sat thereholding his hand.
Of course it was very emotionalfor me, but there was kind of
peace between us and an hour anda half and then she wanted to
come back in and then I realizedI wasn't done yet.
So I wanted to go down the nextday because I really had to

(01:04:55):
tell him some things and I gotthere again and again.
They kind of helped with thesituation and this time I had he
was more awake, which wasbeautiful, and I had kind of
brought this letter of mine, butonly the best parts of it, the

(01:05:19):
parts with thanking him, thingsI wanted to thank him for, and I
read this.
Well, I did some other thingstoo, but I read this letter to
him and felt that he heard itand also had some greetings for
him from people who couldn'tdeal with the situation and

(01:05:39):
hadn't visited him.
And then she came in and made ascene and that's or rather she
started a conflict with me.
Instead of sending in one ofthe nurses to ask him to leave,

(01:06:01):
she just came in and said no,you've been with him enough and
he started shaking.
It was terrible.
He was shaking and sitting upin bed and then she had gone out
.
Briefly he said something likeher name and leave and you, and
I asked him, do you want her toleave or do you want me to leave

(01:06:24):
?
And then he said just saidcan't decide.
And I said you didn't have to.
Now I was going to leave.
Well, I won't go into details,but very emotional goodbye.
And that's the last time I sawhim in my life.

(01:06:46):
I wanted to go back the nextday, but she had the hospital
followed her wishes that Ishould come and he went into
more or less into a coma thenext day and died the day after.

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
So when, when he did eventually pass, you were, you
were divorced and you were, youwere being kept from seeing him.
So how did you go from that tothe forgiveness that we talked
about at the beginning Because Iknow you've had a quite a
journey since then in terms ofyour evolution your forgiveness-
Well, I think part of myforgiveness came before he died.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
That's why it was so crucial.
Also, I mean, I wanted to seehim again, I wanted
reconciliation and of course Idid want that for my own sake,
mostly in the beginning.
But after I realized I have totell you one thing in that first

(01:07:52):
fragile, precious month, youknow, I remember one day I was
holding him and comforting himand praying for him, you know,
and he had this he suddenly saidit's amazing that you're here
in this with me, like, reallylike wonder, full of wonder, wow

(01:08:14):
that you're here.
And I said, of course I am, Ilove you and you do the same for
me.
And then he said no, if it wasthe other way around I would
have run away screaming.

(01:08:36):
And I think, I think he was justcompletely honest.
And you know, given the wholesituation with the jealousy
thing, of course, this sentenceresonated in my head many times.
But when he after he moved outand I realized some things, I

(01:08:59):
realized that because in one ofthe sessions I had confronted
him with this uttering of his acouple of times before we split
up and he had never answered.
But in one of the counselingsessions, at the end.
She asked him because I broughtit up.
So the counselor asked him andthen he said well, I think I

(01:09:24):
would have tried If it was theother way around, I would have
tried, but I would have been onthe verge of suicide.
And then I kind of, you know,thought, okay, he's been
projecting his own on me.
It kind of expected that I inthe I would leave him along the

(01:09:46):
way, and I think whether it'sconscious, consciously or
subconsciously, that played apart in his holding on to her in
order to have someone if I live.
I don't know I don't know, butit's just.

(01:10:10):
I just realized that maybe hesimply didn't dare to trust love
.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
So, since he's passed and you said you started the
forgiveness journey before,how's it been?
How's it been since I, becauseI know you refer to, I know
Anita Morjani's work hasinfluenced you.
So what way was that?

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
That was, yeah, it's okay.
I said I forgave him but also,you must remember, I had lived
sort of only with his hatred for15 months.

(01:10:54):
So even though we had some kindof reconciliation, I mean I
didn't.
I didn't dare to ask him if hestill loved me.
I didn't dare to ask because itwas so hard and the whole thing
about the funeral.
I had no say in it.
I felt in my heart, I felt ashis widow, but I had no say and

(01:11:20):
there was some coldness aroundthe funeral from some of his
friends and that kind ofprolonged my grieving process
because I knew what had happenedbetween him and me and he
hadn't really told his friendsabout his conversations with me,
you know.
And maybe they took I don'tknow if I can blame them, they

(01:11:42):
took the divorce at face value,like we were divorced, so no
saying anything almost.
And I, yeah, I had.
This was in November.

(01:12:03):
He died and I had in January Ihad one dream where he with him
and we were together and we werehappy and we were playful and
everything was beautiful.
That was nice, but I was.
I have this.
What do you say?
It sounds strange, but I wasworried about him because he had

(01:12:26):
had so much anger and hatredand didn't really dare to be
able to believe in God or mercy,grace, I don't know.
I was afraid that he was insome kind of it sounds
irrational, but in some kind oflimbo, like not choosing God,

(01:12:46):
not going home to God, if youknow what I mean.
And that was one thing.
The other thing was I was stillvery doubting whether he loved
me.
And then I had the most amazingexperience in the spring.
I went to his grave and wherehe was, his urn was buried.

(01:13:16):
No one had told me that.
I'd found that out myself and,you know, prayed a bit, cried a
bit and actually asked for signs.
I think I asked for signsbefore and then I this was in
another town and I made a daytrip out of it.

(01:13:38):
So I made a long walk and thiswas a beautiful, beautiful
spring day.
I mean, all the beach trees hadjust come out, the whole world
was green and I walked and I wassad, but I kind of lightened up
a bit, being in nature, startedlooking at plants which was

(01:14:01):
something we had always donetogether and feeling good, and I
felt a bit that he was with meon this walk.
And the funny thing is I wantedto make it shorter than it
ended up being.
But then I met some people whosay, oh, first I found a check,
there's an owl in a tree.
And I thought, okay, I want tosee the owl.

(01:14:21):
And so I continued and skippedthe next station and the next
station and at the end I was.
I never saw the owl, but at theend I was in a park where I had
never been before, beautiful,like a state park, and all the

(01:14:42):
time I was looking for a specialbird, a wren, because we had,
in our last conversation on thephone he had promised to show me
, send me some wrens, birds.
I never saw.
He always saw them.

(01:15:03):
So I was looking for wrens anddidn't see any.
Maybe I did, but didn'trecognize them.
And then I'm coming around thecorner and I mean I have to tell
you this, just after he left.
For months I had put this poemon the wall at home.

(01:15:26):
It's a famous poem in Denmarkand it's about how hateful
lovers can be to each other, butalso that they can make up just
by looking at each other and,you know, stroking each other's
hair.
And I prayed that this lastverse would become true.

(01:15:46):
I had never told my husbandabout this poem.
I come around the corner onthis trip and suddenly smack in
my face this poem carved instone.
I mean literally carved instone.
And it turns out, I later foundout, it's a memorial for the

(01:16:11):
poet.
So he took this poem carved instone and I was just what I was
really like, and the first,because the verse where they are
mean to each other is in thecenter.
So that's the first thing I sawand I was like, oh, and then I

(01:16:33):
was just really.
You know, I went home, I wentto the station, I went on the
train and it wasn't until I saton the train that it dawned on
me that this is too coincidental.
This is too coincidental.
I mean, I kept prolonging thetrip.
I felt his presence and then Ijust thought, wow, and I thought

(01:16:57):
, ok, if he can send me this,he's OK, and if he sends me this
it's also because he loves me.
And I talked to a friend aboutthese thoughts, about is he OK,

(01:17:17):
could he find his way to God?
You know what I mean, right?
And she said well, if you doubtthat, you should read this book
, and that was Anita Mochani'sbook.

Speaker 1 (01:17:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:29):
Time to be mean and I read it at Pentecost I think
Sat on a balcony reading thisbook and when I got to the
sentence of her, you know,telling what she experienced on
the other side the sentencethere is no judgment it just hit

(01:17:54):
me as completely true.
Really, it was like a knowledgein my heart and I started
crying my eyes out and I wasreading, crying, reading, crying
, and it was just so releasingbecause I didn't have to judge
him, I didn't have to judgemyself.

(01:18:15):
It was just, it was really aturning point.
I mean, after this, ever sincehe died, I didn't want to live
anymore.
I just wanted to die so I couldget to him and get this sorted
out, you know, and to understandthings.
Everything that had happened,this kind of made me realize

(01:18:37):
that, ok, maybe you should behere anyway.
You know, after all, live yourlife.
So it started a lot.
It started a lot in me.
It was really a turning point.

Speaker 1 (01:18:53):
It's great.
Yeah, that's an excellent book.
And Anita's, I think hermessage and the message we get
from NDE's in general is thereis no judgment.
And now I have to tell you thatI think a lot of people would
think, after everything thatyour husband put you through,
that a lot of people would say Iwould never be able to forgive
him.
I would.
So your resilience and yourenduring love for him is

(01:19:20):
admirable.

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
Well, you know, I have kept having new
realizations in this.
I mean, it's a long process.
I of course I've gone overthings a million times in my
mind and I had you know, could Ihave acted differently?

(01:19:47):
And yes, of course you canalways act differently, but I
can kind of see that, given thecircumstances, I couldn't have
acted differently back then.
Right, and that's one thing Irealized really, and that is
that every one of us, in anygiven situation, we're doing it.

(01:20:13):
We're doing it as good as wecan, you know, depending on the
insight we have or don't have inourselves and in others.
Yes, I mean, I mean, I mean youcan always get wiser about
something, but then you shouldkind of forgive your earlier

(01:20:37):
self, because back then youdidn't know what you know now.

Speaker 1 (01:20:42):
That's a great point.
Yeah, that's a very good point.
We have to forgive others andalso forgive ourselves, and
sometimes we're the hardest onourselves.
You know what you went throughwith your husband and his ex and
again, I think any woman or anyperson listening can definitely
relate to what you're callingjealousy is just a normal

(01:21:05):
response.
I think that's perfectlyunderstandable.
And then to be to feel rejectedby your husband at the time
when you know you felt like hewas trying to reject it and at
the same time he wanted me there.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
So it's so ambiguous.

Speaker 1 (01:21:22):
Right but.

Speaker 2 (01:21:24):
I mean, we mustn't forget he was in an extreme
circumstance to himself.

Speaker 1 (01:21:30):
Sure, and that's and that's very understanding of you
to realize that.
But again, I think for theaverage human being we would say
, okay, well, if you don't wantme, then I don't want you.
You're a very understandingperson and so you said that your
forgiveness process began evenbefore he passed.
But I can only imagine howterrible it must have felt to

(01:21:51):
you know to not be involved inthe funeral arrangements and be
frozen out by the friends andall that.
You could have held thatresentment for a very long time.

Speaker 2 (01:22:03):
Well, I had to deal with it at some time.
It prolonged the grief processand I tried to approach some of
them to get the clarity and theyweren't really interested in
talking about things.
So, but I made an effort, yes,and because I think we should
all get a chance to get wiser.
But if people don't want tohave dialogue, then it stops

(01:22:26):
there.
What another thing aboutforgiveness is?
I think it's very, veryimportant to know that there's a
huge difference betweenforgiving the actions of the
person and forgiving the person.

Speaker 1 (01:22:47):
Talk about that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
Well, I mean, I've talked to people about
forgiveness a lot and they findit hard to forgive someone
because my mother was so mean tome, or you know, people had
terrible experiences, and oftenfrom loved ones, or you know,

(01:23:11):
and I just think and they sayit's I can never forgive him or
her.
And I think it's just soimportant to differ between the
actions and the person because,as I said, there are lots of
actions you shouldn't let areunacceptable.

(01:23:33):
I mean you shouldn't forgiveviolence.
You know it shouldn't beaccepted, but you can't forgive
the violator or what you call it.

Speaker 1 (01:23:52):
Yeah, the perpetrator sure.

Speaker 2 (01:23:57):
Because we're all in.
I mean, it's not easy, butactually it also releases
yourself.
I remember at one point maybeit was that day when I got that
note from the lawyer about thenot coming to the funeral, maybe
.
But I remember I'm quiteconscious of at some point in

(01:24:20):
those first six months and later, I felt his hatred so enormous
and I, you know you're inclinedto hate back, you know what I
mean you get really angry andyou want to hit back and it's,
it's, and of course you can dothat verbally.

(01:24:41):
But I remember at one point,clearly, I was at a crossroad in
my mind because should I justgo on hating him?
Should I just say all our lovewas fake, which I don't think it
was because I realized alongthe way that when I felt he had

(01:25:01):
been lying to me, he hadactually been lying to himself.
He had been lying to himself.
He had I mean, he had what doyou call it?
Not dealt with his omissionsand like they caught up with him

(01:25:22):
in my, maybe in terms of mesaying, hey, what about?
What about love?
What about?
You know?
I remember it was tempting tosay, okay, he's just, I was just
married to a monster.
I'll hate him till they die andI'll move on.
But I knew I wouldn't move on,because then you become bitter

(01:25:44):
and he's given me and I haven'thad time to tell you I don't
have now, but he's given me somuch I mean.
I mean all those years.
I mean he is the love of mylife and I'd always felt that he
and I were supposed to dosomething together and even
though when times were rough andduring his depression it's
contagious sometimes whensomeone is depressed for six

(01:26:05):
months in a row so maybe attimes I might have had the
thought should, should we split?
I mean, can I do this?
Do I want to grow old with thisperson?
You know what I mean?
It's I'm honest about this I'vehad the thought, but every time
I'm very consciously chosen tostay because I always felt there

(01:26:30):
was something we had to do witheach other.
And, as it turns out, actuallyI think it was this, it was this
process, and that's a newthought.

Speaker 1 (01:26:41):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:26:42):
That's a new, because I read Christian Sonberg's A
Walk in the Physical and Istarted thinking could this have
all been planned?
Yes, and it's a, yeah, it's,it's.
It's strange because the thingis I'm, I'm very happy today.

(01:27:06):
I mean, I think I'm, I'mhappier than I've ever been in
my life.
I'm happy when I wake up in themorning and I've I don't know
where to go in my life right now, but I'm kind of taking one day
at a time and seeing what comesup.
I've.
I mean, something has reallychanged recently, also after

(01:27:27):
reading A Walk in the Physicalthat when I read that book it
was as if the last bits andpieces with me and my husband
fell into place.
I can't say exactly whatsentence and what page, but I
just was very moved when I readit and it was a gave me peace.
And it's so funny because sorry, I have to cough.

(01:27:57):
Some time last year I wasgetting back on track, sort of
yeah, and then there was this.
It was so strange because I hadthis nagging feeling of guilt

(01:28:19):
that I had that ever since thewhole thing started I hadn't
been able to place it.
You know, I had gone througheverything in my mind.
Was it about the divorce?
Was it about this or that?
You know, I had gone througheverything and I couldn't place
it.
And then, sometime last year, Ijust realized that this feeling

(01:28:48):
of guilt was towards myself, andthis may sound strange, but it
was.
I had allowed myself to almostlose myself.
I had been a doormat I mean notby choice well, yes, by choice,

(01:29:11):
but I had chosen to stay in itfor so long that I almost lost
myself.
It was only my huge anger atthe end that saved me, I think.
And then I thought so maybethat's not self-love, actually.
But then I thought, when you'rea doormat, and if you keep

(01:29:32):
being a doormat, when actuallyat the same time you keep the
other one who is the boot orwhatever, you keep him locked in
the role of the boot.
So and I mean that couldexplain a feeling of guilt, if
you know what I mean, becauseI'm not taking my own action,

(01:29:55):
I'm also keeping him in a rolethat it's not pleasant for him.

Speaker 1 (01:30:01):
That's a very good realization and that's something
, again, we have to.
On the one hand, you're showinghim love and your honor, your
commitment, but on the otherhand, you're not setting
appropriate boundaries andthat's what you realize is like
I allow myself to almost losemyself.
So self-care is very importantand we have to balance all these

(01:30:24):
things out and in relationship.
At what point is it am Iexpressing love to the other
person?
At what point am I giving up myown agency and taking care of
myself?
So you've gone through thatprocess and I love the fact that
you've taken these lessons frompeople like Christian Sunberg,

(01:30:44):
with a walk in the physical andneed a more Johnny and said how
can I apply those to my life andhow can I view this with some
people, with you, as a terribletragedy of my husband, you know,
contracting cancer and leavingme and all those things, and how
can I turn this into somethingpositive?
How can I take this and use itto mold myself into a better

(01:31:08):
person, which is exactly whatyou've done and, as you said,
today you're a happy person andyou're a fulfilled person.
So that's an awesome, awesomestory.

Speaker 2 (01:31:18):
It's funny you say that thing about a better person
, because sometimes last year Ihad this dream where I was with
my husband and there was peacebetween us.
He was ill and I was saying tohim I'm so sorry you got so ill,
and his answer was completelyneutral Peace has made you a

(01:31:44):
better human being.
And then I woke up, you know Iwas like, oh, wow and and and
and.
Well, at the time I had thedream.
I was a bit like well, whatabout yourself?
Did you learn something?
But the more I thought about it, I thought, yeah, it could be
that's right, because I'velearned to forgive, and that's a

(01:32:05):
and okay, I don't prefer theterm a better human being.
I would rather say that youbecome better at being a human
being.
Yeah, yeah, but, but it wastrue.
There's a truth in it, and it'sI just have to tell you,
something strange too, becausethen, the earlier this year,

(01:32:33):
january, I was one day I wasthinking about his ex, and I was
thinking about her with peaceand and also with the thought
that even our adversaries,adversaries.

(01:32:57):
I hear to teach us somethingprofound less, I was just but
listen, listen.
Later that week I was told thatshe was dead and I was.
I was so happy that I had thatthought before.

Speaker 1 (01:33:19):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:33:20):
To pass Because.

Speaker 1 (01:33:22):
I we're actually coming to the end of our time.
I want to thank you so much forbeing here today.
I want to thank you for sharingsuch a deeply personal story
and I appreciate yourselflessness in doing this,
because you and I have beentalking for a couple of months
now to set this up and sure youweren't you're first, you
weren't really sure that if youwere wanting to share it.

(01:33:43):
I know you were nervous aboutit.
You've done a wonderful job oftelling your story.
I know it's going to be aninspiration to people.

Speaker 2 (01:33:51):
Well, it's hard to to to keep clear of getting lost
in details and and that's, ofcourse, a lot more to this story
than than I've told, andsomething I actually plan to say
at the very beginning was that,whatever I'm going to tell you
then, it's important to knowthat I'm at peace with these

(01:34:11):
people now.

Speaker 1 (01:34:13):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:34:14):
I really am and and I think I think there's well,
there's there's growth in thisand I think there's a purpose
with this.

Speaker 1 (01:34:25):
Absolutely, absolutely, 100%.
Again, thanks for being heretoday and thanks for sharing
this and enjoy the rest of yourday.

Speaker 2 (01:34:33):
You're welcome.
I hope it can help someone.