September 19, 2023 • 60 mins
Imagine engaging in a spellbinding exchange about near-death experiences and their profound resemblance across cultures and religions. Pastor John Burke, renowned for his years of research and insight into this riveting topic, shares his perception of these experiences, emphasizing the sense of divine love individuals often encounter - a love he believes mirrors God's "first love."
In this episode, we journey through compelling evidence supporting near-death experiences, discussing unique phenomena like the ability of blind people to see and veridical observations. We dare to question the possibility of these experiences being merely biological, given that people from all walks of life report the same universal encounters with God. Pastor Burke offers his enlightening viewpoint on God's image as seen by many - a brilliant light, brighter than the sun, but gentle to the gaze.
The peak of our conversation arrives as we share captivating personal accounts of near-death experiences, including those of a neurologist and psychiatrist, and a Hindu manufacturing engineer. The description of their encounters with an overwhelming energy of love and infinite knowledge is nothing short of awe-inspiring.
We conclude our discussion with insights from his latest book, 'Imagine The God Of Heaven,' where we contemplate God's omnipresence, the healing power of emotional wounds, and God's omnipresent grace and mercy.
Tune in to this mesmerizing conversation and let us unravel the multidimensional aspects of God's love and mercy together.
This deck is a labor of love. It's a 44 card oracle deck that's about connecting you to your loved one in spirit. The deck comes with a companion digital guide that gives you an affirmation, a reflection, and an activity for the day.
Check it out at https://stan.store/grief2growth/p/oracle-deck
You can send me a text by clicking the link at the top of the show notes. Use fanmail to:
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Can't wait to hear from you!
I've been studying Near Death Experiences for many years now. I am 100% convinced they are real. In this short, free ebook, I not only explain why I believe NDEs are real, I share some of the universal secrets brought back by people who have had them.
https://www.grief2growth.com/ndelessons
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian (00:01):
Hey everybody, this is Brian.
I'm back with another episodeof Grief to Growth and today I
want to welcome to a specialguest.
His name is Pastor John Burke.
If you've been with us, ifyou've been with me for some
time, you might remember myconversation with him from a
couple of years ago.
If you haven't, if you don'tremember it, or if you're new,
go back to August of 2021.
(00:21):
And I had a great conversationwith Pastor Burke then.
He's the author of the New YorkTimes Best Seller, imagine
Heaven, and I want you to, likeI said, go back and look at that
episode if you haven't heardbefore.
But he's also written worksincluding no Perfect People
Allowed Soul Revolution andUnshockable Love, and they've
reached hearts all around theworld.
Pastor Burke, together withWhite Catholic, is a spirit
(00:44):
behind the Gateway Church inAustin, texas, which is a
spiritual haven for countlessnumbers of souls.
He's an international speakerand his message of spiritual
enlightenment has spanned 30different countries.
Today I'm going to talk toPastor Burke about his newest
work, which is called Imaginethe God of Heaven, and the
subtitle is God's Revelation andthe Love You've Always Wanted.
(01:06):
And the subtitle actually leadsme into my first question,
because I thought that wasreally caught my eye when I
heard that, or my ear when Iheard that.
So, pastor Burke, can youexpand on the love that we've
always wanted and why we feelthat way?
Pastor John Burke (01:24):
Well, first, brian, call me John, I'm more
comfortable with that.
Ok, fine, yeah.
Yeah, our church is very casual.
We say come as you are, and soI don't like the titles, but
that's all right.
Brian (01:37):
Hey, cool I understand.
Pastor John Burke (01:39):
So you forgot one thing in the subtitle Near
Death Experiences God'sRevelation and the Love You've
Always Wanted.
Brian (01:45):
Yes, yes.
Pastor John Burke (01:47):
So no, it's all right, it's just an
important part because, as youknow, it's my story really, from
grief to growth and my fatherpassing away when three decades
ago, someone gave him the veryfirst book, very first study on
near death experiences and Iread it and I was an agnostic
(02:10):
and that set me on a journey,because I was an engineer like
you, so very analytical,skeptical.
But to me this was like maybethere's actual, some evidence
that this is real, and so I'vestudied thousands of them now
over the last 30 years and thisnew book, imagine the God of
(02:32):
Heaven is taking a look at.
I've got 70 people in this bookfrom all around the world who
not only have a near deathexperience, and you've covered
those before, so your audienceis probably fairly familiar with
them.
Brian (02:49):
Yeah, I'd say they are, but we might as well we could go
over a little bit for peoplethat might be new.
Pastor John Burke (02:53):
Yeah, because I mean that's really important.
It is what convinced me andwhat convinced many skeptical
cardiologists, oncologists,other doctors is when people die
, when they clinically die,their heart stops beating, brain
waves cease and yet they'reresuscitated.
(03:14):
Many come back saying that theyexperienced something of a life
to come that was more real thanthis life ever was.
And there are commonalities andI've traced about 40
commonalities.
There are probably more, but Itraced 40 commonalities in the
book Imagine Heaven that then Iwas tying to how that shows up
(03:35):
in the scriptures.
In Imagine the God of Heaven,what I'm doing is I'm looking at
people from all over the globewho not only have that as a
commonality but they haveexperienced this God of light
and love who is more personalthan they could have ever
imagined, who loves them with,quite honestly, a love that
(04:00):
hyperbole is all they can do totry to express it, and in this
God's presence they never wantto leave.
And so in the book Imagine theGod of Heaven, what I'm doing is
I'm showing, through the eyesof these 70 people, how this God
has been revealing himselfthrough history, his heart, his
(04:23):
characteristics, his great lovestory that he's been revealing
through history, and how that'swhat these people are confirming
.
And it doesn't matter theirreligious background, their
culture.
Many times what they would haveexpected is not what they found
, but what they found.
They never wanted to leave.
It was the love they havealways wanted.
Brian (04:46):
Yeah.
So why do you think thatresonates with us so much, that
love that we've always wanted?
Do you feel like people aremissing that here, or what's the
reason for that?
Pastor John Burke (04:56):
Well, yeah, I mean and that's actually part
of the second part of the bookis it's really about God's great
love story, revealed throughoutthe scriptures, and that often
gets missed.
And in the Bible it starts withpeople in relationship with God
(05:16):
, in very close relationshipwith God, but then throughout
the story there's rejection,there's betrayal, there's
divorce, there's reconciliation,there's sacrifice to try to win
back the beloved.
There are all these metaphorsof relationship that God likens
(05:37):
what he wants with humanity too.
And then the whole thing endsin the book of Revelation with
this great wedding, which iskind of bizarre if you think
it's pretty mysterious, likewhat?
But if you miss the metanarrative of the whole story, I
think you miss a lot of why Goddoes the things he does or
(05:59):
doesn't.
And the main thing is that lovecan't be bought, it can't be
forced or coerced, it can't bemanipulated, it has to be free.
And so if God created us for alove relationship first with
himself and then with each other, then what's missing on the
(06:20):
planet is the first love, andthat's exactly what God said to
Moses, what Jesus reiteratedthat love God first, first and
greatest commandment second islove your neighbor as much as
you do yourself.
Do those two and you fulfillall the scriptures, all the
(06:42):
commands of scripture wrapped upin those two.
And so, yeah, I think part ofthe story of humanity and human
life is that we're here learningabout free will and love and
choosing to choose God and thenchoosing to let the love of God
(07:03):
flow through us to others aswell, and that's one of the
commonalities of near-deathexperiences, of course, all
around the world, in thepresence of this God of light,
who is love, who knows them sointimately, they often get a
life review and in that lifereview they re-experience.
(07:28):
So that's another commonalitythat we have.
Re-experience so that's anothercommonality is time.
I kind of think time probablyworks in two dimensions, or
maybe three.
It's not our linear,one-dimensional timeline and so
they can re-experience theirlives in the presence of this
God and he's showing them.
They come back with two thingsOne, god is love and secondly,
(07:52):
what he cares most about is howwe treat one another, and that's
what he was showing them againand again, like the ripple
effect, like Dr Mary Neal, who Iwas just recently with.
Have you had her on your showbefore?
Brian (08:08):
I have not had her on my show, but I have met her.
Pastor John Burke (08:10):
Yeah, sweet, wonderful person.
She's a spine surgeon, veryanalytical person as well, but
in Jesus' presence he gives hera life review and he shows her
the ripple effect of everylittle kind action and how God
used even the things that shethought were bad in her life.
(08:33):
He showed her how 20 people, 25, 30 people away that was still
having a ripple effect.
Brian (08:45):
So we talk about the word God, we use the word God.
It's a loaded word for a lot ofpeople, yeah, I know.
And this community in theafterlife community, a lot of
times some people shy away fromit.
I've heard some people who'vehad nearer depth experiences say
and I don't know if I want touse that word.
So what is your experience withthe word God and how should we
(09:06):
relate to that?
Pastor John Burke (09:09):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think there's been a lot ofdamage done with misinformation
about God and, honestly, whatI'm trying to do and imagine the
God of Heaven is show one, justlike if you really understand
(09:34):
who this God is, that all thesepeople are encountering, you
would want to seek Him.
That's it.
But the other thing I'm tryingto show is he didn't just show
up in the age of near depthexperiences.
So I'm tracing what actuallyconvinced me as a skeptical
(09:55):
engineer even before theevidence of near depth
experiences, which I thinkscientifically, a scientific
principle is that what isconsistently observed is real.
So if you have millions ofpeople around the globe and I
(10:15):
personally studied thousands ofthem my friend Dr Jeffrey Long
has got a database of 5,000 nowthat he's studied I mean, there
have been many studies.
There have been 900 scholarlypeer review articles published
on this, like in the Journal ofthe American Medical Association
and the Lancet and Psychiatry.
So there's all this evidence.
(10:38):
And then if you look at thefact that close to 50% of them
experience who they know is Godand most of them don't shy away
from calling them that they'relike I knew, there was no doubt
in my mind.
This was my creator, this iswho made me, and yet that's
(11:00):
consistent all around the globe.
The being they're describing isconsistent, and so that should
tell us something Like that's alot of data.
And if it were that alone?
In chapter two of Imagine theGod of Heaven, there have been a
(11:20):
lot of alternate explanationsof near-death experiences.
Right, maybe it's hypoxia, likethe brain suffering from oxygen
deprivation, or maybe it's thesame thing, like DMT, or
ayahuasca produces the samethings.
I've heard all these.
Or what about the effects ofdrugs in the hospital and all
(11:41):
that.
So I go through 10 points ofevidence that any alternative
theory has to make sense of.
Because what I find is, of allthese alternative theories,
they're taking one thing andsaying, well, see, like DMT,
(12:02):
well, yeah, there's theexperience of these wild colors
and connectedness to everything,and sometimes maybe you're
traveling or a tunnel orsomething like that.
Well, yeah, but that doesn'tmake sense of veretical
observations.
So when people have near-deathexperiences and they're out of
(12:22):
their bodies, they say manytimes they're still in the room
up above in a spiritual bodywatching their resuscitation.
And there have been studiesdone where they've come back and
92% of the many observationsthat these many patients that
were studied made, 92% werecompletely accurate of the
(12:44):
things they said were happeningin the room while they had no
brainwaves Right?
96% more, there were somethings some of the observations
they made were not completelyaccurate.
Only 2% were inaccurate.
Well, that's high correlation,right?
Like, how do you make sense ofthat?
(13:05):
Second, blind people see whenthey have a near-death
experience and they come backand they're still blind and yet
they said the same things, theyhad the same experience and even
talked about things that theyshouldn't have known.
Like, they saw things in theirlife review, for instance, that
(13:27):
when they came back they wereable to describe, but they
couldn't have seen that, youknow.
Third, you have theseoverlapping commonalities, but
they're not all the same.
So, like I said, there are like40 commonalities, right, and if
(13:47):
it were just a brain-basedthing, then everyone would
probably have all the samecommonalities, but they don't.
There are percentages of overlapwhich, if you're in a court of
law and you have 10 eyewitnesseswho all say exactly the same
thing, that's collusion, that'ssketchy, because, like they
(14:09):
talked, right, you have 10people who say mostly the same
things and they overlap, butthey're all a bit unique from
different perspectives.
That's very strong testimony.
That's what we see with theseNDE's.
And then you know.
The other one is how do youexplain people from all
different religions seeing thesame God and that shouldn't
(14:33):
happen, because they weren'tnecessarily experiencing that?
And there are other reasons Igo into, but those are just some
that convince me like no, thisis something real.
We're getting theseobservations that again, you
know, what's consistentlyobserved is real, but there's
something real here.
Brian (14:55):
And I'm really glad that you went through that because I
find so many people do notunderstand what you just talked
about.
There is evidence, there'svertical evidence, from a lot of
these NDE's.
People from all across theworld are having similar
experiences, because theexplanations that materialists
come up with, like oxygendeprivation or dump of DMT of
(15:17):
the brain, they don't explainall of that.
So I'm glad you go into that inthe book for people that are
still skeptical about the wholeexperience itself.
When it comes to people meetingGod, what would you say is a
general way that people describeGod?
Pastor John Burke (15:38):
Well, some, you know, some, see him as a
brilliant light, bright, theyconsistently say, brighter than
the sun, but easy to look at.
And they say things like I knewthis should just burn my eyes
out, but it didn't.
(16:00):
In fact, I was mesmerized andin his presence.
So this I love the way this one, he, you know, that's the other
thing about this Brian is likethe people that I've interviewed
.
They're, they're likepsychiatrists, you know, doctors
(16:20):
, commercial airline pilots,nurses, I mean, these, these are
, these are people who have alot to lose by saying crazy
stuff.
Right, and yet they are.
And like this, this one guy whohis name is Ron, dr Ron
Smotherman.
He's a neurologist, andapsychiatrist, and it's a wild
(16:42):
story.
He he was living in SanFrancisco led a, led a guy stay
in his house while he was gone.
He was doing lectures aroundthe world.
When he came back the guy had apsychotic break and started
stabbing him, stabbed him 13times, once through the neck.
That Dr said he absolutelyshould not have survived.
(17:06):
He shows, showed me the, thescars and on the, as as the 14th
was coming for his heart, hesaid I'm froze.
And suddenly appears likeinstantly before him this, this
(17:27):
brilliant light standing therethat he knew again was divine.
He knew this was God, didn'thave any.
They don't have any doubt ofwho this is.
They have an honest experience.
But he said imagine standingfive feet away from the, the,
the point of impact of an atomicexplosion.
(17:50):
He said that was the energyroiling.
This light was just roilingwith energy, and he.
And then he said but, but theenergy?
What was roiling even more waslove.
And then he lost it, telling methis, he said.
He said I'm, I'm sorry, I wasjust like, and that's.
(18:11):
The other thing is that thismemory for them is not up here
in the brain, it's, it'ssomewhere in their soul and they
relive it as if it were todayand it just overwhelms their
emotions because the love is sogreat.
And so he said instantly, hewas imprinted with, with these
qualities and and that's whatpart of what I'm trying to show
(18:34):
and imagine the God of heaven isthe qualities, the heart of God
.
So he said infinite love, butalso, instantly, infinite
knowledge, he said.
I, it's like I had a picture ofa library but the books filled
the universe and he wrote themall.
And he said power, that wasindisputable.
(18:55):
You know what's fascinatingabout the power is I had another
, a commercial airline pilot,who is flying into, like an
airborne coming into the city ofGod okay, which, ironically,
we'll have to come back to.
I have an Indian man who hadnever read the Bible, taken by
(19:18):
this God of light and hedescribes this same city of God.
We can come back to that.
But but both of these guys,this commercial airline pilot
and this neurologistpsychologist, said when I saw
that light, it was like the veryinstant a nuclear explosion
(19:40):
goes off, the whiteness of thatand the brilliance of that, and
yet you could look right into it.
So power, he said, that'sindisputable authority.
There's another thing he said.
He said, like you know, youdidn't have any questions, he
knew and he knew the right thingand you wanted to do whatever
(20:01):
he said.
Humor was another one, and thisis one I bring out in the whole
last section of Imagine the Godof Heaven.
There are things about God, Ithink.
I think all of us, me included,we put God in a box and and,
and some of us put him in a boxwhere we we don't realize how
(20:23):
great, how magnificent, how, howotherworldly and mysterious and
in control and sovereign, allthose words you want to use.
But others put him in a box andwe don't imagine how personable
, how relatable, how evenhumorous and fun and funny, and
(20:43):
some people, like they, can't gothere, and that's what I'm
trying to help people do stretchyour box and see that God is
the, that relationship, and sohumor was one of the things he
said, and many of them said thatthey had so much fun.
Joy was another thing, and andand this is an interesting one
(21:05):
because he said the joy was likeyou wish you could be that
happy, and this is God, thathe's that joyful, he said.
But just experiencing that joy,he said, put me in ecstasy.
Now here's a wild thing, brianand I, you know, I went there,
but I had multiple people that Iinterviewed of these 70 people,
(21:29):
and imagine the God of heavenSay things like that, like in
his presence.
I was like beyond anything I'veever experienced on earth.
And I, and I said, you meaneven like better than sex, like
oh yeah, oh yeah, you name it,there's no high, there's no,
(21:50):
there's no nothing, which youknow some people like no way.
But stretch your categories,you know, look at the, look at
the evidence, because what I'malso showing is I'm showing that
this is not new.
This is what God's beenrevealing about himself all
along.
Joy is what he wants, becauseit's, it's his, it's his main
(22:14):
state.
Right, that's?
Cs Lewis is one of my favoriteauthors, you know, who was a
literary scholar.
So joy is the serious businessof heaven.
Yeah, and it's true.
Another thing that Ron, this guy, said is purity, and I asked
him to explain it, and I thinkit's when, when, when religious
(22:38):
people use the word holy, Ithink.
I think it's the same thing.
He said he was just so pure, soinnocent, and he said but
knowledgeable, so not, notinnocent, like naive, but just
pure.
And he said what?
What it did is?
It stood in stark relief to meand and and.
(23:02):
Then he said one other thing.
He said, and humble, and whenhe said this, he said you know,
you know, I'm a, I'm aneurologist, psychiatrist, I've
written books, I've traveled theworld.
You know, I, I have been proud.
He has real reasons to be proud.
(23:23):
And yet he was so humble, andand again it brought him to
tears Just remembering that.
And we don't.
It's hard for us to put allthat into one being right, right
, and yet that's what I think isimportant to do to more
accurately, because we'll neverfully imagine God.
Brian (23:46):
Yeah, Thank you for that.
Excuse me, I think, as you weresaying, that you know people.
I think the reason why we havetrouble with the word God is
because, as you mentioned, weput God in a box and a lot of us
were raised with a God who wasless than all of that and
probably the last thing weenvisioned God is, or maybe
(24:07):
people who misrepresented.
Oh, absolutely, what God'sactually like.
Absolutely.
That's what I mean.
That's what I mean Peoplerepresenting God in a certain
way.
I, even to this day, I go backand forth with people who are
representing the Bible, forexample, a certain way, and so,
as the Bible says this and it'slike does it really, you know?
Pastor John Burke (24:28):
Well, and again, think about it this way.
So the Bible says a lot ofthings, and it honestly depends
on the framework through whichI'm reading the whole thing,
right?
Brian (24:41):
Yeah, exactly right.
Pastor John Burke (24:42):
So if the framework through which I'm
reading the whole thing is whatis right and what is wrong, and
I'm doing right and you're doingwrong, and that's the framework
, that's what matters most, it'sgoing to be a hammer, yes, but
that's actually not theframework Jesus told us to use.
(25:02):
We already talked about it.
If you love God, throw yourheart.
And if you love people andyourself, you know, if you don't
love yourself, you're not goingto love people.
So it's a both and it'slearning to recognize.
You know, this is another coolthing of many of these stories
is, they say, in God's presenceand I have three people in the
(25:26):
book saying the same thing, andone was an agnostic who
literally I tease him, you beatthe thief next to Jesus for last
minute, crying out to Godbecause he had never prayed,
never thought about God.
But literally, as he's dying ofan opioid overdose, before his
head hits the steering wheel, hesays God, forgive me.
(25:48):
And he and these others.
And the reason I point that outis because this is not what
they would have expected,because God was good, like he
didn't require him to have doneall the right things.
All he required is their heartturning to him, because that's
(26:13):
the point love and he can'tforce love.
So so the thing Jesus said islove God, love people.
That's the framework throughwhich we've got to also read the
Bible and understand what allthat means.
So doesn't mean the command tonot lie is wrong.
It means it's not loving, right, right, but if someone does lie
(26:41):
, would you just beat them downand tell them how horrible they
are and they're worthless peoplebecause they did that and treat
them like that?
Well, that's not loving.
Brian (26:51):
So anyway, yeah, that's a really good point.
You mentioned the agnostic man.
You also mentioned an Indianman who saw the city of God.
So that comes back to do.
We have to be Christian toexperience God in heaven.
Pastor John Burke (27:09):
Yeah, you're asking the Christian pastor.
You're leaving me into the trap.
Brian (27:15):
I don't mean to lead you into a trap.
Pastor John Burke (27:17):
No, I'm totally, I'm teasing, I'm
teasing, but but.
But there is something I think.
So I think some of us have beenburned by Christians who have
not understood the, themagnitude of the grace of God
and and, as a result, have haveled people to believe that that
(27:42):
God doesn't care about anybodybut us.
That's not true and I'm showingthat in the very first three
chapters it's called God of allnations, but the the other side
of it is what these peopleexperience.
So, for instance, santoshAkarchi was this Indian
(28:02):
manufacturing engineer.
So again, very smart people whotravel the world doing
engineering.
But he was raised in Hinduism.
His dad was a Sanskrit scholar.
That was all he knew.
The Hindu gods was all he knew.
He dies, he hears Code Blue, hispancreas ruptured.
He hears Code Blue.
They couldn't revive his heartand they put him on artificial
(28:25):
life support for three days.
Three days later, when he comesback, he tells what happened.
He left his body.
He sees his body there.
This brilliant light comes andhe knows it's a divine light, he
says.
And I knew this light hadultimate authority and I had to
(28:45):
do whatever it wanted, he said.
But I fell in love with thislight.
That was his first response.
And then they go, they travel,and he said it was like through
tunnels, and that's another oneof the commonalities.
But they come to this placewhere the light stops, parked
(29:05):
over what he describes as thisgiant compound.
Now, I've been to India manytimes and at first I was like,
what do you mean compound?
It took me a while to figureout what he was saying.
But in India there are compounds, literally like high walled
areas, gated, and he said it waslike that, but these beautiful
(29:31):
walls, high walls inside thisbeautiful landscape, but
mansions and buildings ofotherworldly material.
And it was square in shape,thousands of miles long.
He said when you're there, youreyesight is like telescopic.
Well, that's anothercommonality as well.
(29:53):
But he said and there were 12gates, I counted them and
outside the gates were angels.
And that's when I realized I'mlooking at the kingdom of heaven
.
And he said all I wanted was toenter there.
He said I realized that's thegoal of existence to be there.
So he experiences.
(30:16):
And if you've ever readRevelation 21 and you look at
his words, it's like that's whathe's experiencing.
And then he's like where am I?
And again, this is anexperience more real than he
said, more real than anythingwe've experienced here and he
(30:38):
says where am I?
And he looks and he's up on ahigh platform and he looks down
to his left and he describes anabyss, he describes hell and
he's like I want to go there, Idon't want to go there.
He turns and he sees who hedescribes as God now in the
(31:01):
appearance of a giant man on athrone.
That's what he describesInteresting.
Brian (31:10):
Okay.
Pastor John Burke (31:10):
I know I'm not making this up.
Yeah, you know, this is justwhat he told me.
And he looks into his eyes andhe gets a life review, like he
sees all of it, the good and thebad, and he falls to his knees
and he says God, forgive me.
Forgive me Because he realizesall the wrongs he had done.
And then the Lord speaks to himand he says I was shocked
(31:35):
because there was suchtenderness, such compassion,
such mercy in his voice and hesaid I'm going to send you back
and when you go back, I want youto love your family, especially
your daughter.
She needs your help right now.
So see, this is this, is thisstretches everybody's categories
, right Is that?
(31:56):
He's the God who is with us,all of us, and he knows
everything intimately abouteveryone we interact with and he
cares about all of us.
That's the thing.
If you miss that, you miss the,you miss the big picture.
But we can also reject him, andthat's what Santosh was also
seeing.
And so then he sees, right nextto this throne, what he calls a
(32:20):
very narrow door that was opento me and he could go into the
kingdom of heaven.
And he asked the Lord.
He said when I come back.
And he said because there wassuch mercy and compassion and
love in his voice, I started torelax and I said when I come
back, how do I go through thatnarrow door?
And the Lord said, and he wasthinking about religion, like
(32:43):
what religion do I choose?
What do I go to, you know?
And he was thinking whichtemple or synagogue or church or
do I go to?
And the Lord said what I wantis relationship, not one day a
week, 365 days a year.
How honest will you be with me,how real, how sincere, how
(33:06):
honest will you be with me?
And then he said he said thewages of sin is death.
Walk with me and surrenderyourself daily to me.
And then he sends it back.
Two years later, his daughter isinvited to sing in a choir at a
(33:29):
church because she was a choralmajor.
Santosh goes to hear her singand the pastor is speaking on
the passage in John 10 whereJesus says you know, or Matthew
seven where he says you know, Iam the gate.
I am the gate into the kingdomof heaven.
And then John 10 where he saysyou know, I'm the gate and the
(33:50):
sheep will come in and out.
And Santosh goes and he startsreading the Bible and he's like
that's what I experienced,interesting, wow.
Well, if that were one story,you go, eh, one story, but I'm
showing just in the first three.
I mean throughout.
I've got stories from peopleall over the world Bebe, who is
(34:11):
a Muslim related to the ProphetMuhammad living in Tehran, who,
in her near death experience,experiences the same, the same
almighty giant in a robe and abeard, white hair, though right,
and Santosh did who says to herI am he who is in Farsi.
Brian (34:34):
Yeah.
Pastor John Burke (34:34):
Okay, she can't speak English, so she told
me this through a translator.
Okay, and I was like you got tobe kidding, I am he who is.
Well, when Moses asked God, whoam I?
To say sent me, you know, whenhe's delivered the?
This is an exodus.
God says I am, who is?
I am the self-existent one.
Brian (34:56):
Yeah.
Pastor John Burke (34:57):
Yeah, it's what Jesus said to himself
before Abraham was born.
I am so she, and she also, youknow, come, comes to start
following Jesus and then getspast to leave Tehran because
they were going to kill her.
Yeah, so I mean, it's not allfree everywhere.
(35:19):
You know, in fact, anotherMuslim, a mom from Rwanda that I
interviewed.
That's in the book and it's afascinating story, too Awesome
story.
His mother was a Tutsi, hisfather was a Hutu during the
Rwandan genocide and it, youknow it, drove their family
(35:42):
apart.
He ends up a street kid ateight years old, doing drugs,
then dealing drugs, then hebecomes an Imam in the mosque
and anyway, long story short, hetoo, he dies of blood cancer.
And he says who was?
(36:03):
There was a man like he saw inthe movie the Passion of the
Christ, because he got freemovie tickets and he went to see
the Passion of the Christ.
And he says he enters and he'sin this white robe with a beard,
but light coming out of himlike the sun, but I could look
at him and he shows me and hesees holes in his hands and he
(36:26):
says to him I died for mankind.
You are one of those I died for.
Never deny it until everyone.
And he's still in Rwanda andhe's now an Anglican priest and
he's had six attempts on hislife.
Oh, wow, wow.
What would convince someone todo that?
(36:46):
Yeah, and I mean you can, youcan go watch my, my video
interviews with him and he's andand so.
So the point is all over theglobe there's another, another
Indian man who Dr Rajeev Parti.
Maybe you know.
Brian (37:04):
Yes, he's been in my program.
Pastor John Burke (37:05):
Yeah, oh, he has.
Brian (37:06):
Yes.
Pastor John Burke (37:07):
Yeah.
So I don't know if he told youhis whole story, but yes, he
came.
He came back confused too,because it's like why did these
Christian angels bring me tothis God of light who then later
, when I ask who are you, LordSays I'm Jesus, your savior.
Brian (37:22):
Yeah.
Pastor John Burke (37:24):
This is happening all over the globe.
Brian (37:26):
Yeah, and I'm really glad that you're tying this back to
to the Bible and stuff, becauseand when I asked you the
question, you know I didn't meanto to to lead you into a trap,
but I do for a reason.
I I I moderated a board onFacebook and just last couple of
days, you know, people aretelling me NDE's are not
biblical and these, you knowthey're, they're deceptions.
(37:48):
And then one guy I was tellingyou know about this and he said,
well, I said something about aCatholic person because, well,
catholics are all deceived too.
So these are, these are some ofthe people.
Pastor John Burke (37:58):
I've got a priest, I've got multiple
Catholics who met the same Godand this guy became a priest
because of his encounter Right.
So and and so, brian, that's thething that just is so difficult
, you know, and that's what I'mtrying to show.
I'm trying to show, yeah,there's a lot of misinformation
out there about God and a lot ofus, all of us, look, all of us
(38:23):
misinterpret.
You know, I'm not completelyright, I'm not even claiming to
be, you know, but if you, but ifyou look at all the evidence
and that's what I'm trying toput, I'm trying to put the
biblical evidence, because I'vestudied it for three decades,
right.
I'm also trying to put I reallythink God is showing us in this
(38:44):
global age of communicationthat he's the God of all nations
and he always has been.
And you know what, what a lotof Christians don't understand.
Jesus said this a lot, and youknow, you even like in Acts
chapter Acts, chapter 10, youknow, god basically reveals to
(39:08):
Peter he's the God of allnations and he has Peter.
Go to this Roman centurion.
Well, they were auto worshipers, they were the, the pagans,
right, they were the outcasts tothe Jews.
And Peter's like I would neverdo that.
Why would he never do that?
Well, because his culture toldhim God loves us, not them,
right, right, and he says herealizes what God's telling him
(39:33):
is, and he says this.
It says I now realize that Goddoes not show favoritism.
He accepts everyone from allnations, you know.
Basically, he said who fear himor seek him and do what is
right.
And so, yeah, in in Imagine theGod of Heaven, one of my
(39:55):
favorite stories, a good friendof mine.
Now when, when I was on a NewYork national news show, she
emails me afterwards this isafter Imagine Heaven and she's a
nurse.
She was a nurse in LA namesHeidi, and she said hey, I saw
you on on that TV show.
(40:15):
I don't know who you are, I'venever read your book, but that
happened to me.
I was raised in an atheist,agnostic Jewish family, but when
I, when my horse landed on meand crushed me, I was up in the
air with Jesus.
I've never told anyone thatThanks, yeah, that's all she
(40:35):
said.
Wow, and so I was like Heidi,we got to talk and we've become
good, good friends since then.
But yeah, what's fascinatingand her, her story is in Imagine
the God of Heaven as well.
But what's fascinating is herdad had a mantra and you know,
(40:56):
brian, a lot, of, a lot of ouranimosity toward God and toward
people comes from our own hurt,unhealed.
And you know that right I meaneven even in grief work there's
a lot of you know just the painof not working through griefs
(41:17):
and stuff like that.
But her dad, who was, who wasactually pretty abusive, had a
mantra there is no God, yourlife is worthless.
Jesus Christ is the biggesthoax ever perpetrated on mankind
.
Oh, wow.
And he told his three daughtersthat every night they're whole
(41:40):
growing up years while beingabusive.
Wow.
Well, she always believed inGod and she prayed to him every
night and she felt that she feltlike she would pray to him and
she'd talk to him about allthese things happening and she
felt the comfort.
In fact she felt like he wasthere, kind of rocking her to
(42:00):
bed.
That's what she felt At 16,after after going through her
bat mitzvah and being raped byher rabbi or being sexually
molested by a rabbi, you know, Imean, you know it's a pretty
horrific story.
But at 16, her she's in a horseriding accident and her horse
(42:27):
lands on her and crushes her andshe instantly left her body.
She said she was up 30 feetabove the accident watching her
sisters freak out.
But she felt great and she saidmy only concern was for my
sisters.
I knew I was dead but I wasgreat, but I just hated that
(42:47):
they had to see me die like this.
And then she sees a light overher shoulder, moves up and there
with her 30 feet in the air, isJesus and he looks like you
would think Jesus would look,except he's.
He's brilliant.
But she recognized it and shesaid I said oh, hey.
And she said it was like aninstant reconnection.
(43:12):
She said I knew this man, Iknew him.
And she later said I can'texplain how God can be a light
and God can be love and God canbe a man.
But that's what I experiencedand Jesus gave her a life review
.
Remember, she's 16, right.
(43:32):
So he gives her a life reviewand in the life review, first of
all, they laughed.
She said their butts offBecause, like, one thing that
happened was when she was aninfant in a crib and her mom,
you know, put another infant inthere and the infant picked up
(43:53):
her little plastic rattle andwhacked her on the nose and
Heidi, just like gets indignantand starts to cry and all that
and they just both burst outlaughing because they knew she
wouldn't really hurt, she wasjust mad, right.
But they could tell all thisand she said Jesus just loved to
laugh and she said he was sofun.
(44:16):
But he also showed her in herlife review that when she was a
young girl and she was prayingto God every night he was there.
She saw him there sitting byher bed comforting her.
In her life review, wow, and andI think that's what this shows
(44:36):
is that, you know, jesus said Iam the light of the world.
Whoever follows me will neverwalk in darkness, but we'll have
the light of life.
Mm-hmm.
And this God of light alsoappeared to Moses, you know,
3500 years ago, as this Burningbush that wouldn't burn the bush
(44:57):
.
Yeah, this is this brilliantlight that didn't burn, didn't
burn the bush, and and and onand on.
You know, you can, you cantrace it through, and what I
think this shows us is God hasalways been about Drawing people
back to himself.
That's what he's doing.
(45:19):
He he's.
The whole purpose of Jesuscoming and Dying on the cross
was to make a way that we don'thave to pay for all our wrongs,
that God in his justice, justice, would be willing and able to
both be just and to forgiveAnybody who wants him.
Brian (45:45):
Hmm.
Pastor John Burke (45:46):
That's it, yeah, anybody who wants him.
Yeah if you want him and youwant his love, nothing can keep
you away from him, becausenothing can keep him away from
you.
Yeah, but here's the otherthing is that he's with us
already.
He's with everyone already.
Yeah, how in different ways,even the person who rejects him.
(46:06):
And there are people in thebook who he said that to them,
it's like in in their lifereview.
You know, he was one guy who wasa medical executive and a CEO
and In Jesus presence he'sgetting this life review and
Jesus is showing him all thesetimes.
He suffered as a kid.
He suffered a lot.
(46:27):
He was in the hospital.
I had bad asthma, he wasoverweight, he was bullied.
He's showing me all and he sayswhy are you showing me these
things?
And then he kind of had an ahaand he said were you there with
me Even through all that, evenbefore I knew you?
And and Jesus looks at me saidyes, I was there waiting for you
(46:50):
to turn to me.
And and Then a really coolthing is at a later point, he's
just experiencing a similar kindof like ecstatic joy.
He's by you know, he's by thisriver in heaven, this gorgeous
place, and he's by this riverand he drinks of this water and
(47:14):
he said it was just like, likehe again said ecstasy, you think
they say that mm-hmm.
And then he he turns to Jesusand Jesus is holding a flask
Like a bottle mm-hmm.
This is what is that.
And Jesus said I've beencollecting your tears, beloved,
hmm.
And then he pours them into theriver, hmm.
(47:34):
And Randy instantly knows he'sreturning all my sorrows for joy
.
Brian (47:42):
Wow, yeah.
And then I Want to ask you this, because you talked about, you
mentioned something about eventhose who reject him.
I think it was.
It was a phrase you used Ifyou're familiar with the work of
Thomas Talbot.
You wrote a book called theinescapable love of God.
Pastor John Burke (47:59):
No okay.
Brian (48:00):
So he and he argues that if we knew who God was and if we
were in our right minds, havingthose two conditions, you could
not reject God and the God.
I hear you describing the way,the joy and the love and the
laughter.
How could anybody possiblyreject that?
Pastor John Burke (48:23):
It's even better than that.
Brian (48:25):
Yeah, so I mean.
Pastor John Burke (48:26):
Heidi, heidi.
So Heidi was a speed freak,right, she rode horses, bareback
and just loved speed, mm-hmm.
So they're up 30 feet in theair after getting a life review,
jesus grabs her hand.
I Didn't even, I didn't eventell.
I went ahead and put it in thebook, but in the end, because I
(48:47):
figure if it's too soon, peoplewon't they'll check out because
they won't believe it.
Because that was my firstreaction Like no way, he takes
her hand and they take off.
And she said at first we it waslike we were going through
Earth's atmosphere and then outinto like the universe, but
(49:07):
they're going faster and faster.
And she said that we were.
We were flying like Supermanand Lois Lane, mm-hmm, but but
being pushed by a wave of light.
She said it was like we weresurfing this wave of light and I
could feel that I was barefootBecause I could feel it on my
feet.
And I reached in and I touchedmy hand to it and I look over
Jesus and he's just grinning earto ear and he says isn't this
(49:29):
the coolest ever?
Brian (49:31):
mm-hmm.
Pastor John Burke (49:33):
Well, there are a lot of Christians who like
right, right now, or checkingout, like no, that's you're, you
know.
Right can't be like that.
Right, right, but he is likethat.
You know, jesus.
Jesus, his last night on earthsaid you know, I'm telling you
these things so that my joy maybe in you and your joy may be
(49:56):
complete.
Right, and see what.
What I go into in the book thatI think many Christians miss is
that Everything we love, everywonderful experience, every
pleasure, every adventure, allthe things we love about life,
we only do because he made uswith the ability to love him.
(50:19):
Yeah, exactly and he actuallyEnjoys us enjoying them right.
I I love enjoying things withmy granddaughters.
You know right, if I give him agift, I Enjoyed playing it with
them and seeing them enjoyingit right, yeah well, I'm not
better than God.
Brian (50:40):
Yeah, and that that kind of.
That kind of.
Come back to the title of thebook that was mentioned.
He calls it the inescapablelove of God.
It's like it's so Attractivethat no one in the right mind
could turn away.
I think what people reject isthe, the limited view of God
that we have, that the God, theheaven.
That sounds boring, right?
(51:01):
I don't want to go place.
I'm going to be sitting on acloud playing a harp all day,
singing, singing songs for10,000 years.
Pastor John Burke (51:07):
And that's not it.
And and, and you know you, youread the stories of these people
and the eye witnesses of thesepeople All over the world and
you realize, okay, they'reeither whacked and there are
millions of whacked people, butstill, like I said, you know, I
put all that evidence like itdoesn't make sense, right,
(51:27):
unless there's something realhere, but what they say is it's
more real.
Now, what does that mean?
I've, as an engineer, thought alot about that and and I think
this is what they mean.
So imagine, if this you know,we're living in three dimensions
of space.
In one dimension of time, weCan't even imagine a fourth
(51:51):
dimension of space.
In a second dimension of time,five dimensions, right, we can't
fathom it, no, you can't.
But but, but we can, and we canunderstand it by analogy.
So imagine, this experience isbeing lived on a flat black and
white painting on my wall, andDeath means separation.
So your soul leaves this threedimensional realm, so your soul
(52:14):
is peeled off that flat, blackand white two dimensional realm
when you only knew up and downand side to side.
You didn't even know in and out.
That's not a dimension You'refamiliar with at all.
Mm-hmm, now you come out andyour two dimensional self is now
experiencing three dimensionsand color in this room that was
all around you and you'recontained within this bigger
(52:35):
reality.
That's more real.
Then imagine being pressed backinto that flat two dimensional
world and trying to describethree dimensions of color In
black and white, two dimensionalterms, right, right.
That's why the more of thesepeople I've interviewed, I've
realized they have to usehyperbole.
That's why some of the peoplein in the bible who have also
(52:58):
experienced the same thing yeah,there are a lot of them talking
about what they saw orexperienced in heaven, and it's
always it was like this Mm-hmm,you know.
So the city was Like gold, buttransparent like glass.
Brian (53:16):
Right.
Pastor John Burke (53:18):
Well, what does that mean when you hear a
manufacturing engineer say, well, it was otherworldly materials.
And then you hear both a spinesurgeon and a commercial airline
pilot who'd never read theBible before, talking about how
it appears like glass or crystal, but it's actually light and
(53:44):
love.
This place is made of light andlove.
And they say I know thatdoesn't make any sense, but
that's what it was.
And I asked them but was itreal?
Was it like physical and solid?
Oh yeah, more than this.
Like hugs are like real?
Oh yeah, much deeper than this.
I mean communication andthought and memory is all this.
(54:07):
Oh yeah.
But you understand completely.
It's thought to thought.
Nothing's misunderstood.
Brian (54:15):
Yeah, I think.
Well, I know what I saw fromone of the notes you sent me I
love.
What this says is we're goingto find it.
You said basically that the NDEkind of puts color onto what's
kind of black and white, I thinkin the Bible.
And having this conversationwith you, I can tell.
And when you talk to peoplethat haven't had NDE as much as
(54:37):
you have, it becomes infectiousand I can see it, I can feel it
coming through you and so you'remaking us Well, it's exciting.
Pastor John Burke (54:44):
Yeah, it's exciting and that's the thing I
just wish everyone could know.
All the things you long for.
They are available and thereason we long it's another CS
Lewis quote if you have a thirstfor something that nothing on
(55:06):
earth can quench, it probablymeans we were made for something
else.
Brian (55:12):
Yeah, I love that quote by CS Lewis.
I think it which.
I just butchered by the way.
Yeah, but it indicates like,yeah, we don't have a longing
for something that doesn't exist.
So he talks about these thingsthat we long for.
That.
There's got to be a reason forthem.
Pastor John Burke (55:26):
Yeah, we hunger and there's food, but we
want a love that nevercompletely satisfies.
We want a peace that it comesand goes.
We want a joy.
We get low glimpses and thenback to mundane and we picture
that that's how heaven or God'sgoing to be, but that's not it.
It's that it's like theselongings, these desires are good
(55:49):
, but there's something missing,and it's kind of like that
homing device in birds that howdo they fly thousands of miles
and hit their target every year?
Brian (56:00):
Right.
Pastor John Burke (56:01):
And there's something in them knows what
home actually is, and it justpoints them there.
Brian (56:06):
Yeah, it just said that.
It reminded me of a woman Iinterviewed.
She had a near-death experiencewhen her husband murdered her.
But she's in heaven and she'swith her sister and they're
laughing and she's like it'sjust too much joy.
She said it was just too much.
I felt like I was going toexplode.
I didn't know if I couldcontain all of it.
And I've heard several people.
Pastor John Burke (56:24):
Five people that I've interviewed in the
book say that.
Brian (56:27):
Yeah.
Pastor John Burke (56:27):
I felt like I was going to just blow up One
guy I love that he's anAustralian lawyer and he said I
was in God's presence and it waslike he was filling me up with
love and joy so much I felt likeI was going to burst and I
thought I don't know if I cantake anymore.
And he said he heard a chucklefrom God and then it starts to
(56:51):
go down and he said no, no,don't stop.
And then more, but yeah, again,and again.
Brian (57:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I really appreciate youhaving this conversation again
with me today and remind peoplethe name of the book and where
they can get it and where theycan find out more about you.
Pastor John Burke (57:15):
It's Imagine the God of Heaven, and you can
just go toimaginethegoddovevennet or
johnburckonlinecom Right now.
We'll take you to the sameplace.
You can find out more about it.
Brian (57:31):
Again, thanks so much for being here.
Thanks for sharing yourknowledge and your wisdom and
your joy with my audience.
Pastor John Burke (57:38):
Well, it's not my joy and everyone can have
it.
Brian (57:43):
Yeah, thanks a lot.
Have a great rest of your day,okay, thank you everybody.
Hey everybody, this is Brian.
I'm back with another episodeof Grief to Growth and today I
want to welcome to a specialguest.
His name is Pastor John Burke.
If you've been with us, ifyou've been with me for some
time, you might remember myconversation with him from a
couple of years ago.
If you haven't, if you don'tremember it, or if you're new,
go back to August of 2021.
(00:21):
And I had a great conversationwith Pastor Burke then.
He's the author of the New YorkTimes Best Seller, imagine
Heaven, and I want you to, likeI said, go back and look at that
episode if you haven't heardbefore.
But he's also written worksincluding no Perfect People
Allowed Soul Revolution andUnshockable Love, and they've
reached hearts all around theworld.
Pastor Burke, together withWhite Catholic, is a spirit
(00:44):
behind the Gateway Church inAustin, texas, which is a
spiritual haven for countlessnumbers of souls.
He's an international speakerand his message of spiritual
enlightenment has spanned 30different countries.
Today I'm going to talk toPastor Burke about his newest
work, which is called Imaginethe God of Heaven, and the
subtitle is God's Revelation andthe Love You've Always Wanted.
(01:06):
And the subtitle actually leadsme into my first question,
because I thought that wasreally caught my eye when I
heard that, or my ear when Iheard that.
So, pastor Burke, can youexpand on the love that we've
always wanted and why we feelthat way?
Pastor John Burke (01:24):
Well, first, brian, call me John, I'm more
comfortable with that.
Ok, fine, yeah.
Yeah, our church is very casual.
We say come as you are, and soI don't like the titles, but
that's all right.
Brian (01:37):
Hey, cool I understand.
Pastor John Burke (01:39):
So you forgot one thing in the subtitle Near
Death Experiences God'sRevelation and the Love You've
Always Wanted.
Brian (01:45):
Yes, yes.
Pastor John Burke (01:47):
So no, it's all right, it's just an
important part because, as youknow, it's my story really, from
grief to growth and my fatherpassing away when three decades
ago, someone gave him the veryfirst book, very first study on
near death experiences and Iread it and I was an agnostic
(02:10):
and that set me on a journey,because I was an engineer like
you, so very analytical,skeptical.
But to me this was like maybethere's actual, some evidence
that this is real, and so I'vestudied thousands of them now
over the last 30 years and thisnew book, imagine the God of
(02:32):
Heaven is taking a look at.
I've got 70 people in this bookfrom all around the world who
not only have a near deathexperience, and you've covered
those before, so your audienceis probably fairly familiar with
them.
Brian (02:49):
Yeah, I'd say they are, but we might as well we could go
over a little bit for peoplethat might be new.
Pastor John Burke (02:53):
Yeah, because I mean that's really important.
It is what convinced me andwhat convinced many skeptical
cardiologists, oncologists,other doctors is when people die
, when they clinically die,their heart stops beating, brain
waves cease and yet they'reresuscitated.
(03:14):
Many come back saying that theyexperienced something of a life
to come that was more real thanthis life ever was.
And there are commonalities andI've traced about 40
commonalities.
There are probably more, but Itraced 40 commonalities in the
book Imagine Heaven that then Iwas tying to how that shows up
(03:35):
in the scriptures.
In Imagine the God of Heaven,what I'm doing is I'm looking at
people from all over the globewho not only have that as a
commonality but they haveexperienced this God of light
and love who is more personalthan they could have ever
imagined, who loves them with,quite honestly, a love that
(04:00):
hyperbole is all they can do totry to express it, and in this
God's presence they never wantto leave.
And so in the book Imagine theGod of Heaven, what I'm doing is
I'm showing, through the eyesof these 70 people, how this God
has been revealing himselfthrough history, his heart, his
(04:23):
characteristics, his great lovestory that he's been revealing
through history, and how that'swhat these people are confirming
.
And it doesn't matter theirreligious background, their
culture.
Many times what they would haveexpected is not what they found
, but what they found.
They never wanted to leave.
It was the love they havealways wanted.
Brian (04:46):
Yeah.
So why do you think thatresonates with us so much, that
love that we've always wanted?
Do you feel like people aremissing that here, or what's the
reason for that?
Pastor John Burke (04:56):
Well, yeah, I mean and that's actually part
of the second part of the bookis it's really about God's great
love story, revealed throughoutthe scriptures, and that often
gets missed.
And in the Bible it starts withpeople in relationship with God
(05:16):
, in very close relationshipwith God, but then throughout
the story there's rejection,there's betrayal, there's
divorce, there's reconciliation,there's sacrifice to try to win
back the beloved.
There are all these metaphorsof relationship that God likens
(05:37):
what he wants with humanity too.
And then the whole thing endsin the book of Revelation with
this great wedding, which iskind of bizarre if you think
it's pretty mysterious, likewhat?
But if you miss the metanarrative of the whole story, I
think you miss a lot of why Goddoes the things he does or
(05:59):
doesn't.
And the main thing is that lovecan't be bought, it can't be
forced or coerced, it can't bemanipulated, it has to be free.
And so if God created us for alove relationship first with
himself and then with each other, then what's missing on the
(06:20):
planet is the first love, andthat's exactly what God said to
Moses, what Jesus reiteratedthat love God first, first and
greatest commandment second islove your neighbor as much as
you do yourself.
Do those two and you fulfillall the scriptures, all the
(06:42):
commands of scripture wrapped upin those two.
And so, yeah, I think part ofthe story of humanity and human
life is that we're here learningabout free will and love and
choosing to choose God and thenchoosing to let the love of God
(07:03):
flow through us to others aswell, and that's one of the
commonalities of near-deathexperiences, of course, all
around the world, in thepresence of this God of light,
who is love, who knows them sointimately, they often get a
life review and in that lifereview they re-experience.
(07:28):
So that's another commonalitythat we have.
Re-experience so that's anothercommonality is time.
I kind of think time probablyworks in two dimensions, or
maybe three.
It's not our linear,one-dimensional timeline and so
they can re-experience theirlives in the presence of this
God and he's showing them.
They come back with two thingsOne, god is love and secondly,
(07:52):
what he cares most about is howwe treat one another, and that's
what he was showing them againand again, like the ripple
effect, like Dr Mary Neal, who Iwas just recently with.
Have you had her on your showbefore?
Brian (08:08):
I have not had her on my show, but I have met her.
Pastor John Burke (08:10):
Yeah, sweet, wonderful person.
She's a spine surgeon, veryanalytical person as well, but
in Jesus' presence he gives hera life review and he shows her
the ripple effect of everylittle kind action and how God
used even the things that shethought were bad in her life.
(08:33):
He showed her how 20 people, 25, 30 people away that was still
having a ripple effect.
Brian (08:45):
So we talk about the word God, we use the word God.
It's a loaded word for a lot ofpeople, yeah, I know.
And this community in theafterlife community, a lot of
times some people shy away fromit.
I've heard some people who'vehad nearer depth experiences say
and I don't know if I want touse that word.
So what is your experience withthe word God and how should we
(09:06):
relate to that?
Pastor John Burke (09:09):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think there's been a lot ofdamage done with misinformation
about God and, honestly, whatI'm trying to do and imagine the
God of Heaven is show one, justlike if you really understand
(09:34):
who this God is, that all thesepeople are encountering, you
would want to seek Him.
That's it.
But the other thing I'm tryingto show is he didn't just show
up in the age of near depthexperiences.
So I'm tracing what actuallyconvinced me as a skeptical
(09:55):
engineer even before theevidence of near depth
experiences, which I thinkscientifically, a scientific
principle is that what isconsistently observed is real.
So if you have millions ofpeople around the globe and I
(10:15):
personally studied thousands ofthem my friend Dr Jeffrey Long
has got a database of 5,000 nowthat he's studied I mean, there
have been many studies.
There have been 900 scholarlypeer review articles published
on this, like in the Journal ofthe American Medical Association
and the Lancet and Psychiatry.
So there's all this evidence.
(10:38):
And then if you look at thefact that close to 50% of them
experience who they know is Godand most of them don't shy away
from calling them that they'relike I knew, there was no doubt
in my mind.
This was my creator, this iswho made me, and yet that's
(11:00):
consistent all around the globe.
The being they're describing isconsistent, and so that should
tell us something Like that's alot of data.
And if it were that alone?
In chapter two of Imagine theGod of Heaven, there have been a
(11:20):
lot of alternate explanationsof near-death experiences.
Right, maybe it's hypoxia, likethe brain suffering from oxygen
deprivation, or maybe it's thesame thing, like DMT, or
ayahuasca produces the samethings.
I've heard all these.
Or what about the effects ofdrugs in the hospital and all
(11:41):
that.
So I go through 10 points ofevidence that any alternative
theory has to make sense of.
Because what I find is, of allthese alternative theories,
they're taking one thing andsaying, well, see, like DMT,
(12:02):
well, yeah, there's theexperience of these wild colors
and connectedness to everything,and sometimes maybe you're
traveling or a tunnel orsomething like that.
Well, yeah, but that doesn'tmake sense of veretical
observations.
So when people have near-deathexperiences and they're out of
(12:22):
their bodies, they say manytimes they're still in the room
up above in a spiritual bodywatching their resuscitation.
And there have been studiesdone where they've come back and
92% of the many observationsthat these many patients that
were studied made, 92% werecompletely accurate of the
(12:44):
things they said were happeningin the room while they had no
brainwaves Right?
96% more, there were somethings some of the observations
they made were not completelyaccurate.
Only 2% were inaccurate.
Well, that's high correlation,right?
Like, how do you make sense ofthat?
(13:05):
Second, blind people see whenthey have a near-death
experience and they come backand they're still blind and yet
they said the same things, theyhad the same experience and even
talked about things that theyshouldn't have known.
Like, they saw things in theirlife review, for instance, that
(13:27):
when they came back they wereable to describe, but they
couldn't have seen that, youknow.
Third, you have theseoverlapping commonalities, but
they're not all the same.
So, like I said, there are like40 commonalities, right, and if
(13:47):
it were just a brain-basedthing, then everyone would
probably have all the samecommonalities, but they don't.
There are percentages of overlapwhich, if you're in a court of
law and you have 10 eyewitnesseswho all say exactly the same
thing, that's collusion, that'ssketchy, because, like they
(14:09):
talked, right, you have 10people who say mostly the same
things and they overlap, butthey're all a bit unique from
different perspectives.
That's very strong testimony.
That's what we see with theseNDE's.
And then you know.
The other one is how do youexplain people from all
different religions seeing thesame God and that shouldn't
(14:33):
happen, because they weren'tnecessarily experiencing that?
And there are other reasons Igo into, but those are just some
that convince me like no, thisis something real.
We're getting theseobservations that again, you
know, what's consistentlyobserved is real, but there's
something real here.
Brian (14:55):
And I'm really glad that you went through that because I
find so many people do notunderstand what you just talked
about.
There is evidence, there'svertical evidence, from a lot of
these NDE's.
People from all across theworld are having similar
experiences, because theexplanations that materialists
come up with, like oxygendeprivation or dump of DMT of
(15:17):
the brain, they don't explainall of that.
So I'm glad you go into that inthe book for people that are
still skeptical about the wholeexperience itself.
When it comes to people meetingGod, what would you say is a
general way that people describeGod?
Pastor John Burke (15:38):
Well, some, you know, some, see him as a
brilliant light, bright, theyconsistently say, brighter than
the sun, but easy to look at.
And they say things like I knewthis should just burn my eyes
out, but it didn't.
(16:00):
In fact, I was mesmerized andin his presence.
So this I love the way this one, he, you know, that's the other
thing about this Brian is likethe people that I've interviewed
.
They're, they're likepsychiatrists, you know, doctors
(16:20):
, commercial airline pilots,nurses, I mean, these, these are
, these are people who have alot to lose by saying crazy
stuff.
Right, and yet they are.
And like this, this one guy whohis name is Ron, dr Ron
Smotherman.
He's a neurologist, andapsychiatrist, and it's a wild
(16:42):
story.
He he was living in SanFrancisco led a, led a guy stay
in his house while he was gone.
He was doing lectures aroundthe world.
When he came back the guy had apsychotic break and started
stabbing him, stabbed him 13times, once through the neck.
That Dr said he absolutelyshould not have survived.
(17:06):
He shows, showed me the, thescars and on the, as as the 14th
was coming for his heart, hesaid I'm froze.
And suddenly appears likeinstantly before him this, this
(17:27):
brilliant light standing therethat he knew again was divine.
He knew this was God, didn'thave any.
They don't have any doubt ofwho this is.
They have an honest experience.
But he said imagine standingfive feet away from the, the,
the point of impact of an atomicexplosion.
(17:50):
He said that was the energyroiling.
This light was just roilingwith energy, and he.
And then he said but, but theenergy?
What was roiling even more waslove.
And then he lost it, telling methis, he said.
He said I'm, I'm sorry, I wasjust like, and that's.
(18:11):
The other thing is that thismemory for them is not up here
in the brain, it's, it'ssomewhere in their soul and they
relive it as if it were todayand it just overwhelms their
emotions because the love is sogreat.
And so he said instantly, hewas imprinted with, with these
qualities and and that's whatpart of what I'm trying to show
(18:34):
and imagine the God of heaven isthe qualities, the heart of God
.
So he said infinite love, butalso, instantly, infinite
knowledge, he said.
I, it's like I had a picture ofa library but the books filled
the universe and he wrote themall.
And he said power, that wasindisputable.
(18:55):
You know what's fascinatingabout the power is I had another
, a commercial airline pilot,who is flying into, like an
airborne coming into the city ofGod okay, which, ironically,
we'll have to come back to.
I have an Indian man who hadnever read the Bible, taken by
(19:18):
this God of light and hedescribes this same city of God.
We can come back to that.
But but both of these guys,this commercial airline pilot
and this neurologistpsychologist, said when I saw
that light, it was like the veryinstant a nuclear explosion
(19:40):
goes off, the whiteness of thatand the brilliance of that, and
yet you could look right into it.
So power, he said, that'sindisputable authority.
There's another thing he said.
He said, like you know, youdidn't have any questions, he
knew and he knew the right thingand you wanted to do whatever
(20:01):
he said.
Humor was another one, and thisis one I bring out in the whole
last section of Imagine the Godof Heaven.
There are things about God, Ithink.
I think all of us, me included,we put God in a box and and,
and some of us put him in a boxwhere we we don't realize how
(20:23):
great, how magnificent, how, howotherworldly and mysterious and
in control and sovereign, allthose words you want to use.
But others put him in a box andwe don't imagine how personable
, how relatable, how evenhumorous and fun and funny, and
(20:43):
some people, like they, can't gothere, and that's what I'm
trying to help people do stretchyour box and see that God is
the, that relationship, and sohumor was one of the things he
said, and many of them said thatthey had so much fun.
Joy was another thing, and andand this is an interesting one
(21:05):
because he said the joy was likeyou wish you could be that
happy, and this is God, thathe's that joyful, he said.
But just experiencing that joy,he said, put me in ecstasy.
Now here's a wild thing, brianand I, you know, I went there,
but I had multiple people that Iinterviewed of these 70 people,
(21:29):
and imagine the God of heavenSay things like that, like in
his presence.
I was like beyond anything I'veever experienced on earth.
And I, and I said, you meaneven like better than sex, like
oh yeah, oh yeah, you name it,there's no high, there's no,
(21:50):
there's no nothing, which youknow some people like no way.
But stretch your categories,you know, look at the, look at
the evidence, because what I'malso showing is I'm showing that
this is not new.
This is what God's beenrevealing about himself all
along.
Joy is what he wants, becauseit's, it's his, it's his main
(22:14):
state.
Right, that's?
Cs Lewis is one of my favoriteauthors, you know, who was a
literary scholar.
So joy is the serious businessof heaven.
Yeah, and it's true.
Another thing that Ron, this guy, said is purity, and I asked
him to explain it, and I thinkit's when, when, when religious
(22:38):
people use the word holy, Ithink.
I think it's the same thing.
He said he was just so pure, soinnocent, and he said but
knowledgeable, so not, notinnocent, like naive, but just
pure.
And he said what?
What it did is?
It stood in stark relief to meand and and.
(23:02):
Then he said one other thing.
He said, and humble, and whenhe said this, he said you know,
you know, I'm a, I'm aneurologist, psychiatrist, I've
written books, I've traveled theworld.
You know, I, I have been proud.
He has real reasons to be proud.
(23:23):
And yet he was so humble, andand again it brought him to
tears Just remembering that.
And we don't.
It's hard for us to put allthat into one being right, right
, and yet that's what I think isimportant to do to more
accurately, because we'll neverfully imagine God.
Brian (23:46):
Yeah, Thank you for that.
Excuse me, I think, as you weresaying, that you know people.
I think the reason why we havetrouble with the word God is
because, as you mentioned, weput God in a box and a lot of us
were raised with a God who wasless than all of that and
probably the last thing weenvisioned God is, or maybe
(24:07):
people who misrepresented.
Oh, absolutely, what God'sactually like.
Absolutely.
That's what I mean.
That's what I mean Peoplerepresenting God in a certain
way.
I, even to this day, I go backand forth with people who are
representing the Bible, forexample, a certain way, and so,
as the Bible says this and it'slike does it really, you know?
Pastor John Burke (24:28):
Well, and again, think about it this way.
So the Bible says a lot ofthings, and it honestly depends
on the framework through whichI'm reading the whole thing,
right?
Brian (24:41):
Yeah, exactly right.
Pastor John Burke (24:42):
So if the framework through which I'm
reading the whole thing is whatis right and what is wrong, and
I'm doing right and you're doingwrong, and that's the framework
, that's what matters most, it'sgoing to be a hammer, yes, but
that's actually not theframework Jesus told us to use.
(25:02):
We already talked about it.
If you love God, throw yourheart.
And if you love people andyourself, you know, if you don't
love yourself, you're not goingto love people.
So it's a both and it'slearning to recognize.
You know, this is another coolthing of many of these stories
is, they say, in God's presenceand I have three people in the
(25:26):
book saying the same thing, andone was an agnostic who
literally I tease him, you beatthe thief next to Jesus for last
minute, crying out to Godbecause he had never prayed,
never thought about God.
But literally, as he's dying ofan opioid overdose, before his
head hits the steering wheel, hesays God, forgive me.
(25:48):
And he and these others.
And the reason I point that outis because this is not what
they would have expected,because God was good, like he
didn't require him to have doneall the right things.
All he required is their heartturning to him, because that's
(26:13):
the point love and he can'tforce love.
So so the thing Jesus said islove God, love people.
That's the framework throughwhich we've got to also read the
Bible and understand what allthat means.
So doesn't mean the command tonot lie is wrong.
It means it's not loving, right, right, but if someone does lie
(26:41):
, would you just beat them downand tell them how horrible they
are and they're worthless peoplebecause they did that and treat
them like that?
Well, that's not loving.
Brian (26:51):
So anyway, yeah, that's a really good point.
You mentioned the agnostic man.
You also mentioned an Indianman who saw the city of God.
So that comes back to do.
We have to be Christian toexperience God in heaven.
Pastor John Burke (27:09):
Yeah, you're asking the Christian pastor.
You're leaving me into the trap.
Brian (27:15):
I don't mean to lead you into a trap.
Pastor John Burke (27:17):
No, I'm totally, I'm teasing, I'm
teasing, but but.
But there is something I think.
So I think some of us have beenburned by Christians who have
not understood the, themagnitude of the grace of God
and and, as a result, have haveled people to believe that that
(27:42):
God doesn't care about anybodybut us.
That's not true and I'm showingthat in the very first three
chapters it's called God of allnations, but the the other side
of it is what these peopleexperience.
So, for instance, santoshAkarchi was this Indian
(28:02):
manufacturing engineer.
So again, very smart people whotravel the world doing
engineering.
But he was raised in Hinduism.
His dad was a Sanskrit scholar.
That was all he knew.
The Hindu gods was all he knew.
He dies, he hears Code Blue, hispancreas ruptured.
He hears Code Blue.
They couldn't revive his heartand they put him on artificial
(28:25):
life support for three days.
Three days later, when he comesback, he tells what happened.
He left his body.
He sees his body there.
This brilliant light comes andhe knows it's a divine light, he
says.
And I knew this light hadultimate authority and I had to
(28:45):
do whatever it wanted, he said.
But I fell in love with thislight.
That was his first response.
And then they go, they travel,and he said it was like through
tunnels, and that's another oneof the commonalities.
But they come to this placewhere the light stops, parked
(29:05):
over what he describes as thisgiant compound.
Now, I've been to India manytimes and at first I was like,
what do you mean compound?
It took me a while to figureout what he was saying.
But in India there are compounds, literally like high walled
areas, gated, and he said it waslike that, but these beautiful
(29:31):
walls, high walls inside thisbeautiful landscape, but
mansions and buildings ofotherworldly material.
And it was square in shape,thousands of miles long.
He said when you're there, youreyesight is like telescopic.
Well, that's anothercommonality as well.
(29:53):
But he said and there were 12gates, I counted them and
outside the gates were angels.
And that's when I realized I'mlooking at the kingdom of heaven
.
And he said all I wanted was toenter there.
He said I realized that's thegoal of existence to be there.
So he experiences.
(30:16):
And if you've ever readRevelation 21 and you look at
his words, it's like that's whathe's experiencing.
And then he's like where am I?
And again, this is anexperience more real than he
said, more real than anythingwe've experienced here and he
(30:38):
says where am I?
And he looks and he's up on ahigh platform and he looks down
to his left and he describes anabyss, he describes hell and
he's like I want to go there, Idon't want to go there.
He turns and he sees who hedescribes as God now in the
(31:01):
appearance of a giant man on athrone.
That's what he describesInteresting.
Brian (31:10):
Okay.
Pastor John Burke (31:10):
I know I'm not making this up.
Yeah, you know, this is justwhat he told me.
And he looks into his eyes andhe gets a life review, like he
sees all of it, the good and thebad, and he falls to his knees
and he says God, forgive me.
Forgive me Because he realizesall the wrongs he had done.
And then the Lord speaks to himand he says I was shocked
(31:35):
because there was suchtenderness, such compassion,
such mercy in his voice and hesaid I'm going to send you back
and when you go back, I want youto love your family, especially
your daughter.
She needs your help right now.
So see, this is this, is thisstretches everybody's categories
, right Is that?
(31:56):
He's the God who is with us,all of us, and he knows
everything intimately abouteveryone we interact with and he
cares about all of us.
That's the thing.
If you miss that, you miss the,you miss the big picture.
But we can also reject him, andthat's what Santosh was also
seeing.
And so then he sees, right nextto this throne, what he calls a
(32:20):
very narrow door that was opento me and he could go into the
kingdom of heaven.
And he asked the Lord.
He said when I come back.
And he said because there wassuch mercy and compassion and
love in his voice, I started torelax and I said when I come
back, how do I go through thatnarrow door?
And the Lord said, and he wasthinking about religion, like
(32:43):
what religion do I choose?
What do I go to, you know?
And he was thinking whichtemple or synagogue or church or
do I go to?
And the Lord said what I wantis relationship, not one day a
week, 365 days a year.
How honest will you be with me,how real, how sincere, how
(33:06):
honest will you be with me?
And then he said he said thewages of sin is death.
Walk with me and surrenderyourself daily to me.
And then he sends it back.
Two years later, his daughter isinvited to sing in a choir at a
(33:29):
church because she was a choralmajor.
Santosh goes to hear her singand the pastor is speaking on
the passage in John 10 whereJesus says you know, or Matthew
seven where he says you know, Iam the gate.
I am the gate into the kingdomof heaven.
And then John 10 where he saysyou know, I'm the gate and the
(33:50):
sheep will come in and out.
And Santosh goes and he startsreading the Bible and he's like
that's what I experienced,interesting, wow.
Well, if that were one story,you go, eh, one story, but I'm
showing just in the first three.
I mean throughout.
I've got stories from peopleall over the world Bebe, who is
(34:11):
a Muslim related to the ProphetMuhammad living in Tehran, who,
in her near death experience,experiences the same, the same
almighty giant in a robe and abeard, white hair, though right,
and Santosh did who says to herI am he who is in Farsi.
Brian (34:34):
Yeah.
Pastor John Burke (34:34):
Okay, she can't speak English, so she told
me this through a translator.
Okay, and I was like you got tobe kidding, I am he who is.
Well, when Moses asked God, whoam I?
To say sent me, you know, whenhe's delivered the?
This is an exodus.
God says I am, who is?
I am the self-existent one.
Brian (34:56):
Yeah.
Pastor John Burke (34:57):
Yeah, it's what Jesus said to himself
before Abraham was born.
I am so she, and she also, youknow, come, comes to start
following Jesus and then getspast to leave Tehran because
they were going to kill her.
Yeah, so I mean, it's not allfree everywhere.
(35:19):
You know, in fact, anotherMuslim, a mom from Rwanda that I
interviewed.
That's in the book and it's afascinating story, too Awesome
story.
His mother was a Tutsi, hisfather was a Hutu during the
Rwandan genocide and it, youknow it, drove their family
(35:42):
apart.
He ends up a street kid ateight years old, doing drugs,
then dealing drugs, then hebecomes an Imam in the mosque
and anyway, long story short, hetoo, he dies of blood cancer.
And he says who was?
(36:03):
There was a man like he saw inthe movie the Passion of the
Christ, because he got freemovie tickets and he went to see
the Passion of the Christ.
And he says he enters and he'sin this white robe with a beard,
but light coming out of himlike the sun, but I could look
at him and he shows me and hesees holes in his hands and he
(36:26):
says to him I died for mankind.
You are one of those I died for.
Never deny it until everyone.
And he's still in Rwanda andhe's now an Anglican priest and
he's had six attempts on hislife.
Oh, wow, wow.
What would convince someone todo that?
(36:46):
Yeah, and I mean you can, youcan go watch my, my video
interviews with him and he's andand so.
So the point is all over theglobe there's another, another
Indian man who Dr Rajeev Parti.
Maybe you know.
Brian (37:04):
Yes, he's been in my program.
Pastor John Burke (37:05):
Yeah, oh, he has.
Brian (37:06):
Yes.
Pastor John Burke (37:07):
Yeah.
So I don't know if he told youhis whole story, but yes, he
came.
He came back confused too,because it's like why did these
Christian angels bring me tothis God of light who then later
, when I ask who are you, LordSays I'm Jesus, your savior.
Brian (37:22):
Yeah.
Pastor John Burke (37:24):
This is happening all over the globe.
Brian (37:26):
Yeah, and I'm really glad that you're tying this back to
to the Bible and stuff, becauseand when I asked you the
question, you know I didn't meanto to to lead you into a trap,
but I do for a reason.
I I I moderated a board onFacebook and just last couple of
days, you know, people aretelling me NDE's are not
biblical and these, you knowthey're, they're deceptions.
(37:48):
And then one guy I was tellingyou know about this and he said,
well, I said something about aCatholic person because, well,
catholics are all deceived too.
So these are, these are some ofthe people.
Pastor John Burke (37:58):
I've got a priest, I've got multiple
Catholics who met the same Godand this guy became a priest
because of his encounter Right.
So and and so, brian, that's thething that just is so difficult
, you know, and that's what I'mtrying to show.
I'm trying to show, yeah,there's a lot of misinformation
out there about God and a lot ofus, all of us, look, all of us
(38:23):
misinterpret.
You know, I'm not completelyright, I'm not even claiming to
be, you know, but if you, but ifyou look at all the evidence
and that's what I'm trying toput, I'm trying to put the
biblical evidence, because I'vestudied it for three decades,
right.
I'm also trying to put I reallythink God is showing us in this
(38:44):
global age of communicationthat he's the God of all nations
and he always has been.
And you know what, what a lotof Christians don't understand.
Jesus said this a lot, and youknow, you even like in Acts
chapter Acts, chapter 10, youknow, god basically reveals to
(39:08):
Peter he's the God of allnations and he has Peter.
Go to this Roman centurion.
Well, they were auto worshipers, they were the, the pagans,
right, they were the outcasts tothe Jews.
And Peter's like I would neverdo that.
Why would he never do that?
Well, because his culture toldhim God loves us, not them,
right, right, and he says herealizes what God's telling him
(39:33):
is, and he says this.
It says I now realize that Goddoes not show favoritism.
He accepts everyone from allnations, you know.
Basically, he said who fear himor seek him and do what is
right.
And so, yeah, in in Imagine theGod of Heaven, one of my
(39:55):
favorite stories, a good friendof mine.
Now when, when I was on a NewYork national news show, she
emails me afterwards this isafter Imagine Heaven and she's a
nurse.
She was a nurse in LA namesHeidi, and she said hey, I saw
you on on that TV show.
(40:15):
I don't know who you are, I'venever read your book, but that
happened to me.
I was raised in an atheist,agnostic Jewish family, but when
I, when my horse landed on meand crushed me, I was up in the
air with Jesus.
I've never told anyone thatThanks, yeah, that's all she
(40:35):
said.
Wow, and so I was like Heidi,we got to talk and we've become
good, good friends since then.
But yeah, what's fascinatingand her, her story is in Imagine
the God of Heaven as well.
But what's fascinating is herdad had a mantra and you know,
(40:56):
brian, a lot, of, a lot of ouranimosity toward God and toward
people comes from our own hurt,unhealed.
And you know that right I meaneven even in grief work there's
a lot of you know just the painof not working through griefs
(41:17):
and stuff like that.
But her dad, who was, who wasactually pretty abusive, had a
mantra there is no God, yourlife is worthless.
Jesus Christ is the biggesthoax ever perpetrated on mankind
.
Oh, wow.
And he told his three daughtersthat every night they're whole
(41:40):
growing up years while beingabusive.
Wow.
Well, she always believed inGod and she prayed to him every
night and she felt that she feltlike she would pray to him and
she'd talk to him about allthese things happening and she
felt the comfort.
In fact she felt like he wasthere, kind of rocking her to
(42:00):
bed.
That's what she felt At 16,after after going through her
bat mitzvah and being raped byher rabbi or being sexually
molested by a rabbi, you know, Imean, you know it's a pretty
horrific story.
But at 16, her she's in a horseriding accident and her horse
(42:27):
lands on her and crushes her andshe instantly left her body.
She said she was up 30 feetabove the accident watching her
sisters freak out.
But she felt great and she saidmy only concern was for my
sisters.
I knew I was dead but I wasgreat, but I just hated that
(42:47):
they had to see me die like this.
And then she sees a light overher shoulder, moves up and there
with her 30 feet in the air, isJesus and he looks like you
would think Jesus would look,except he's.
He's brilliant.
But she recognized it and shesaid I said oh, hey.
And she said it was like aninstant reconnection.
(43:12):
She said I knew this man, Iknew him.
And she later said I can'texplain how God can be a light
and God can be love and God canbe a man.
But that's what I experiencedand Jesus gave her a life review
.
Remember, she's 16, right.
(43:32):
So he gives her a life reviewand in the life review, first of
all, they laughed.
She said their butts offBecause, like, one thing that
happened was when she was aninfant in a crib and her mom,
you know, put another infant inthere and the infant picked up
(43:53):
her little plastic rattle andwhacked her on the nose and
Heidi, just like gets indignantand starts to cry and all that
and they just both burst outlaughing because they knew she
wouldn't really hurt, she wasjust mad, right.
But they could tell all thisand she said Jesus just loved to
laugh and she said he was sofun.
(44:16):
But he also showed her in herlife review that when she was a
young girl and she was prayingto God every night he was there.
She saw him there sitting byher bed comforting her.
In her life review, wow, and andI think that's what this shows
(44:36):
is that, you know, jesus said Iam the light of the world.
Whoever follows me will neverwalk in darkness, but we'll have
the light of life.
Mm-hmm.
And this God of light alsoappeared to Moses, you know,
3500 years ago, as this Burningbush that wouldn't burn the bush
(44:57):
.
Yeah, this is this brilliantlight that didn't burn, didn't
burn the bush, and and and onand on.
You know, you can, you cantrace it through, and what I
think this shows us is God hasalways been about Drawing people
back to himself.
That's what he's doing.
(45:19):
He he's.
The whole purpose of Jesuscoming and Dying on the cross
was to make a way that we don'thave to pay for all our wrongs,
that God in his justice, justice, would be willing and able to
both be just and to forgiveAnybody who wants him.
Brian (45:45):
Hmm.
Pastor John Burke (45:46):
That's it, yeah, anybody who wants him.
Yeah if you want him and youwant his love, nothing can keep
you away from him, becausenothing can keep him away from
you.
Yeah, but here's the otherthing is that he's with us
already.
He's with everyone already.
Yeah, how in different ways,even the person who rejects him.
(46:06):
And there are people in thebook who he said that to them,
it's like in in their lifereview.
You know, he was one guy who wasa medical executive and a CEO
and In Jesus presence he'sgetting this life review and
Jesus is showing him all thesetimes.
He suffered as a kid.
He suffered a lot.
(46:27):
He was in the hospital.
I had bad asthma, he wasoverweight, he was bullied.
He's showing me all and he sayswhy are you showing me these
things?
And then he kind of had an ahaand he said were you there with
me Even through all that, evenbefore I knew you?
And and Jesus looks at me saidyes, I was there waiting for you
(46:50):
to turn to me.
And and Then a really coolthing is at a later point, he's
just experiencing a similar kindof like ecstatic joy.
He's by you know, he's by thisriver in heaven, this gorgeous
place, and he's by this riverand he drinks of this water and
(47:14):
he said it was just like, likehe again said ecstasy, you think
they say that mm-hmm.
And then he he turns to Jesusand Jesus is holding a flask
Like a bottle mm-hmm.
This is what is that.
And Jesus said I've beencollecting your tears, beloved,
hmm.
And then he pours them into theriver, hmm.
(47:34):
And Randy instantly knows he'sreturning all my sorrows for joy
.
Brian (47:42):
Wow, yeah.
And then I Want to ask you this, because you talked about, you
mentioned something about eventhose who reject him.
I think it was.
It was a phrase you used Ifyou're familiar with the work of
Thomas Talbot.
You wrote a book called theinescapable love of God.
Pastor John Burke (47:59):
No okay.
Brian (48:00):
So he and he argues that if we knew who God was and if we
were in our right minds, havingthose two conditions, you could
not reject God and the God.
I hear you describing the way,the joy and the love and the
laughter.
How could anybody possiblyreject that?
Pastor John Burke (48:23):
It's even better than that.
Brian (48:25):
Yeah, so I mean.
Pastor John Burke (48:26):
Heidi, heidi.
So Heidi was a speed freak,right, she rode horses, bareback
and just loved speed, mm-hmm.
So they're up 30 feet in theair after getting a life review,
jesus grabs her hand.
I Didn't even, I didn't eventell.
I went ahead and put it in thebook, but in the end, because I
(48:47):
figure if it's too soon, peoplewon't they'll check out because
they won't believe it.
Because that was my firstreaction Like no way, he takes
her hand and they take off.
And she said at first we it waslike we were going through
Earth's atmosphere and then outinto like the universe, but
(49:07):
they're going faster and faster.
And she said that we were.
We were flying like Supermanand Lois Lane, mm-hmm, but but
being pushed by a wave of light.
She said it was like we weresurfing this wave of light and I
could feel that I was barefootBecause I could feel it on my
feet.
And I reached in and I touchedmy hand to it and I look over
Jesus and he's just grinning earto ear and he says isn't this
(49:29):
the coolest ever?
Brian (49:31):
mm-hmm.
Pastor John Burke (49:33):
Well, there are a lot of Christians who like
right, right now, or checkingout, like no, that's you're, you
know.
Right can't be like that.
Right, right, but he is likethat.
You know, jesus.
Jesus, his last night on earthsaid you know, I'm telling you
these things so that my joy maybe in you and your joy may be
(49:56):
complete.
Right, and see what.
What I go into in the book thatI think many Christians miss is
that Everything we love, everywonderful experience, every
pleasure, every adventure, allthe things we love about life,
we only do because he made uswith the ability to love him.
(50:19):
Yeah, exactly and he actuallyEnjoys us enjoying them right.
I I love enjoying things withmy granddaughters.
You know right, if I give him agift, I Enjoyed playing it with
them and seeing them enjoyingit right, yeah well, I'm not
better than God.
Brian (50:40):
Yeah, and that that kind of.
That kind of.
Come back to the title of thebook that was mentioned.
He calls it the inescapablelove of God.
It's like it's so Attractivethat no one in the right mind
could turn away.
I think what people reject isthe, the limited view of God
that we have, that the God, theheaven.
That sounds boring, right?
(51:01):
I don't want to go place.
I'm going to be sitting on acloud playing a harp all day,
singing, singing songs for10,000 years.
Pastor John Burke (51:07):
And that's not it.
And and, and you know you, youread the stories of these people
and the eye witnesses of thesepeople All over the world and
you realize, okay, they'reeither whacked and there are
millions of whacked people, butstill, like I said, you know, I
put all that evidence like itdoesn't make sense, right,
(51:27):
unless there's something realhere, but what they say is it's
more real.
Now, what does that mean?
I've, as an engineer, thought alot about that and and I think
this is what they mean.
So imagine, if this you know,we're living in three dimensions
of space.
In one dimension of time, weCan't even imagine a fourth
(51:51):
dimension of space.
In a second dimension of time,five dimensions, right, we can't
fathom it, no, you can't.
But but, but we can, and we canunderstand it by analogy.
So imagine, this experience isbeing lived on a flat black and
white painting on my wall, andDeath means separation.
So your soul leaves this threedimensional realm, so your soul
(52:14):
is peeled off that flat, blackand white two dimensional realm
when you only knew up and downand side to side.
You didn't even know in and out.
That's not a dimension You'refamiliar with at all.
Mm-hmm, now you come out andyour two dimensional self is now
experiencing three dimensionsand color in this room that was
all around you and you'recontained within this bigger
(52:35):
reality.
That's more real.
Then imagine being pressed backinto that flat two dimensional
world and trying to describethree dimensions of color In
black and white, two dimensionalterms, right, right.
That's why the more of thesepeople I've interviewed, I've
realized they have to usehyperbole.
That's why some of the peoplein in the bible who have also
(52:58):
experienced the same thing yeah,there are a lot of them talking
about what they saw orexperienced in heaven, and it's
always it was like this Mm-hmm,you know.
So the city was Like gold, buttransparent like glass.
Brian (53:16):
Right.
Pastor John Burke (53:18):
Well, what does that mean when you hear a
manufacturing engineer say, well, it was otherworldly materials.
And then you hear both a spinesurgeon and a commercial airline
pilot who'd never read theBible before, talking about how
it appears like glass or crystal, but it's actually light and
(53:44):
love.
This place is made of light andlove.
And they say I know thatdoesn't make any sense, but
that's what it was.
And I asked them but was itreal?
Was it like physical and solid?
Oh yeah, more than this.
Like hugs are like real?
Oh yeah, much deeper than this.
I mean communication andthought and memory is all this.
(54:07):
Oh yeah.
But you understand completely.
It's thought to thought.
Nothing's misunderstood.
Brian (54:15):
Yeah, I think.
Well, I know what I saw fromone of the notes you sent me I
love.
What this says is we're goingto find it.
You said basically that the NDEkind of puts color onto what's
kind of black and white, I thinkin the Bible.
And having this conversationwith you, I can tell.
And when you talk to peoplethat haven't had NDE as much as
(54:37):
you have, it becomes infectiousand I can see it, I can feel it
coming through you and so you'remaking us Well, it's exciting.
Pastor John Burke (54:44):
Yeah, it's exciting and that's the thing I
just wish everyone could know.
All the things you long for.
They are available and thereason we long it's another CS
Lewis quote if you have a thirstfor something that nothing on
(55:06):
earth can quench, it probablymeans we were made for something
else.
Brian (55:12):
Yeah, I love that quote by CS Lewis.
I think it which.
I just butchered by the way.
Yeah, but it indicates like,yeah, we don't have a longing
for something that doesn't exist.
So he talks about these thingsthat we long for.
That.
There's got to be a reason forthem.
Pastor John Burke (55:26):
Yeah, we hunger and there's food, but we
want a love that nevercompletely satisfies.
We want a peace that it comesand goes.
We want a joy.
We get low glimpses and thenback to mundane and we picture
that that's how heaven or God'sgoing to be, but that's not it.
It's that it's like theselongings, these desires are good
(55:49):
, but there's something missing,and it's kind of like that
homing device in birds that howdo they fly thousands of miles
and hit their target every year?
Brian (56:00):
Right.
Pastor John Burke (56:01):
And there's something in them knows what
home actually is, and it justpoints them there.
Brian (56:06):
Yeah, it just said that.
It reminded me of a woman Iinterviewed.
She had a near-death experiencewhen her husband murdered her.
But she's in heaven and she'swith her sister and they're
laughing and she's like it'sjust too much joy.
She said it was just too much.
I felt like I was going toexplode.
I didn't know if I couldcontain all of it.
And I've heard several people.
Pastor John Burke (56:24):
Five people that I've interviewed in the
book say that.
Brian (56:27):
Yeah.
Pastor John Burke (56:27):
I felt like I was going to just blow up One
guy I love that he's anAustralian lawyer and he said I
was in God's presence and it waslike he was filling me up with
love and joy so much I felt likeI was going to burst and I
thought I don't know if I cantake anymore.
And he said he heard a chucklefrom God and then it starts to
(56:51):
go down and he said no, no,don't stop.
And then more, but yeah, again,and again.
Brian (57:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I really appreciate youhaving this conversation again
with me today and remind peoplethe name of the book and where
they can get it and where theycan find out more about you.
Pastor John Burke (57:15):
It's Imagine the God of Heaven, and you can
just go toimaginethegoddovevennet or
johnburckonlinecom Right now.
We'll take you to the sameplace.
You can find out more about it.
Brian (57:31):
Again, thanks so much for being here.
Thanks for sharing yourknowledge and your wisdom and
your joy with my audience.
Pastor John Burke (57:38):
Well, it's not my joy and everyone can have
it.
Brian (57:43):
Yeah, thanks a lot.
Have a great rest of your day,okay, thank you everybody.
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