February 21, 2024 • 48 mins
Join Carol as she sits down with Bernard I. Lumpkin, an art collector and patron, for an enriching conversation about parenting, identity, and culture. Bernard, raised in a multicultural home with an African-American father from Watts, L.A., and a Jewish mother from Tangier, Morocco, shares how his upbringing shaped his deep appreciation for Black art. Now a father of three biracial children, Bernard is committed to instilling a sense of cultural pride in them. In this episode, he reflects on the challenges and joys of his childhood and of raising his children today, emphasizing the importance of embracing diversity within families. Through his passion for collecting art that reflects his family's heritage, Bernard illustrates how parents can help their children feel secure in their identities and develop a strong sense of self. Don't miss this insightful discussion on parenting, identity, and the transformative power of art.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Hello, and welcome to Ground ControlParenting, a blog and now a podcast
creative for parents raising black and brownchildren. I'm the creator and your host,
Carol Sutton Lewis. In this podcastseries, I talk with some really
interesting people about the job and thejoy of parenting. Today, I am
so excited to talk with our guest, Bernard I. Lumpkin. Bernard is
(00:25):
a contemporary art collector, a patron, and educator whose commitment of both emerging
and established artists of African descent ispart of his broader mission of institutional advocacy
and support. Bernard currently sits onthe board of Trustees of the Studio Museum
in Harlem, as I do,and I'm thrilled to have him as a
fellow board member. He's also onthe board of Sclehegan School of Painting and
Sculpture at the Whitney Museum of AmericanArt. He serves on the Education Committee
(00:49):
and on the Painting and Sculpture Committee. At the Museum of Modern Art,
he serves on the Media and PerformanceCommittee, and he's also the vice chair
of the Friends of Education patron group. And his husband Carmin and PICUTSI,
have amassed an amazing art collection,which is dominated by works of artists of
color. The Lumpkin Picutsie Family collectionis the subject of a best selling book,
(01:11):
Young, Gifted and Black, anew generation of artists, and it's
also the subject of a nationwide travelingexhibition which began in twenty nineteen. Bernard
was educated at Harvard and Yale.At Yale, who served on the Dean's
Council of the School of Art.Bernard and Carmine are the proud parents of
twins Lucy and Felix, who arenine and a half, and Zachary,
who's four and a half. Welcometo ground Control Parenting, Bernard, thank
(01:36):
you Carol for having me on theshow. Great to be here. I
am so glad to have you herewith us talk about raising children with art,
which is one of my favorite topics, and I'm also looking forward to
talking with you about lots of otherparenting topics, including being biracial and raising
biracial kids, and lots of goodstuff like that. So let's get started.
I'll ask you, as I askmany of my guests, to start
(01:57):
by talking about how you were raised. Can you tell me a little bit
about where you were raised, whereyou grew up, and a little bit
about what it was like to growup in your family. Well, Carol,
it's funny. I can think ofall of our conversations over the years
as fellow trustees in the Studio MuseumBoard and also fellow patrons of art in
(02:19):
New York City, and I knowthat you and I have at different times
talked briefly about our experience in parentingand patroning, as I call it.
And this is a wonderful opportunity todive a little deeper into these subjects.
And I know your question, youknow, about family really is where parenting
(02:40):
begins, right, It's where welearn how to love. It's where we
learn how to teach our children aboutthe world, and it's where we hopefully
learn to to, you know,pass on what we were given and the
gifts that our parents gave us toour children, and pass on the gifts
(03:01):
and not all the baggage, hopefully, right. We certainly, we hope,
so we hope. So yes,I'm sure this is exactly what our
own parents said, and their parentsbefore them said that. But I grew
up in a very unique, wonderful, loving household. I say unique,
(03:23):
I would say because of my parents'ethnic and racial background. My father was
African American born and raised in Watts, Los Angeles, and my mother was
Sephardic Jewish from Morocco, born andraised in Tangiers. And so they in
an individually represented very different cultural,cultural, ethnic, and religious heritages,
(03:49):
and they in turn, you know, passed that rich tradition onto myself and
my sister, and I in turnam hoping to share that with my own
children. It's a wonderful heritage.It's unusual, and it has shaped my
experience in many different ways. Youknow, shorthand would be to say that
(04:11):
I'm mixed race, but I shouldalso say that I'm a mixed religion and
mixed languages. My mother spoke Frenchand Spanish to me as a child,
and I then studied that in school, so that became part of my linguistic
heritage, and also just a senseof a very broad sense of culture and
language and religion. So that wasreally important to me. And you know,
(04:35):
my father and my mother, eachin their own way, had to
find their way in the world throughtheir own roots, and I think for
my father, growing up in Watts, Los Angeles was subformative experience for him,
and it in turn informed a lotof my thinking about my role as
(04:55):
an art collector and a patron,because I was very interested in in sort
of using my father's heritage as astarting point for exploring conversations with artists of
African descent about issues like family,about race, about nation, about what
it means to be black in America, what it means to grow up black
(05:16):
in America. So on my father'sside, first, I would just say
that my father was was very mucha unicorn growing up and watched in the
fifties. He wanted to be nota lawyer, not a doctor, not
a businessman, but a scientist anda certain kind of scientist, a physicist.
(05:36):
So he was very much an intellectualand he loved learning, and I
think he loved being in school.And you know, that was one of
the first things that my parents passedon to me both my parents was a
love of learning and a love ofeducation and a joy that comes from discovering
(06:00):
life and knowledge. So my fatherwas educated at the best public schools.
He won awards in all subjects English, math, journalism, but science and
physics was what he excelled in,and he graduated at the top of his
class and went to Saint Mary's Collegein the Bay Area for college, but
(06:21):
then was wanting to, I think, expand his world a little bit.
I think, get out of Californiaand you know, in high school,
just an anecdote about my father whichsays a lot about who he was,
and which also for me has becomea symbol of what it means to you
know, what creative black genius lookslike. He loved science and loved astronomy
(06:46):
as part of science and physics,but his parents couldn't afford to buy him
a telescope, and so he builtone from scratch, which was an amazing
you know, for a sixteen yearold to build a telescope from scratch.
And you know, for my father, I always think of that image of
him, you know, in hisbackyard and watched Los Angeles pointing that telescope
(07:09):
to the stars and envisioning a differentworld for himself, you know, imagining
you seeing the universe and all theinfinite possibility that the universe presents itself when
we look up at the stars atnight. And I think he as a
teenager loving science, knowing that optionswere limited for him in his immediate community
(07:29):
and place in where he was bornand raised, but having a vision for
the future that hadn't yet happened,but he knew that it was out there
for him. To me, that'salways been a very important symbol and also
a symbol of the artists that Icollect in terms of what an artist does,
you know, imagining a reality thatdoesn't yet exist and figuring out how
(07:50):
to get there, how to makethat your reality, how to make that
dream a reality, how to makethat vision vibrant and real. So that's
such a beautiful I'm sorry, Ididn't mean to interrupt, but that's such
a beautiful image. I can seeyour father in the backyard of a sixteen
year old So that's how lovely thatyou have that as a north Star.
(08:11):
I'm pardon the punt, but yeah, yeah, that's exactly that's exactly what
it is, you know. AndI think on my mother's side too,
you know, it's funny both myI had these African roots on both sides
of my family. My father AfricanAmerican and my mother North African from Morocco.
And you know, my mother,for her her dream was, you
(08:33):
know, to become a scholar alsoof literature and They both ended up at
Columbia University in graduate school in thesixties, and you know, each pursuing
in a sense, each you know, my mother sort of migrating from Tangiers,
Morocco, to the United States withother members of her family, my
(08:56):
father, you know, making apilgrimage from California to New York City,
and each found their home and Ithink found there. You know, they
were soulmates in New York City atthat time, and it was the time
of civil rights. It was atime of great cultural and political debate and
dialogue. University campus, you know, obviously was a special place to be
(09:22):
in that time, as campuses alwaysare. And they met and they fell
in love, and they collaborated both, you know, in terms of their
you know, their academic interest.My father was was an intense Francophile and
loved French culture, French literature.My mother was studying French literature at Columbia.
(09:45):
They were both interested in civil rights. My father was very active in
establishing the first open admissions policy asCity college here in New York. During
those years. He saw his roleas a scienti as an educator, He
saw that as an activist role thathe could have an impact and make a
(10:05):
difference, make more opportunities, pavemore pathways for young black sciences like himself
to make it to universities like Columbia, to corporations like IBM where he worked.
So it was a very important momentfor my parents. I think they
were meant to meet. I thinkthey uplifted each other and they each sort
(10:30):
of became each other's new families.They had to separate from their families in
order to pursue their dreams. Therewas obviously struggle and pain and hardship and
having to do that in order tosort of reinvent yourself in order to become
yourself and so, but I thinkthat lesson is something which I have looked
(10:52):
at and thought about a lot inmy parents that you know, we are
given certain gifts, we are givencertain case abilities, and the rest we
have to sort of create on ourown and make possible our own dreams and
our own wishes. I think myparents instilled in me a love of family,
(11:13):
a love of you know, theyboth had big families, that both
came from big families. But Idon't think my parents could have told me
how myself being gay would would figureout how to make a family. It's
like I inherited from my parents' loveof family and a desire to have a
big family, But I don't thinkthey could have told me how to make
(11:35):
that happen in my particular situation,you know. And I think the same
with my parents. My father loved, you know, being black and celebrating
his heritage was very important to him. But in terms of being a scientist
and being a black physicist, hisparents couldn't have showed him how to celebrate
his family his cultural heritage in thatway or support him professionally. I think
(12:01):
they taught him to work hard,to do well in school, and to
you know, to work hard andto do well in school. They did
not send him to a special schoolfor science. He could not have.
He didn't go to the Ivy Leagueschools the way he sent myself and my
sister. So you know, weare given so much from our parents and
(12:22):
then we have to make the restof it ourselves. And I love that
my parents, each in their ownway, taught me that. What a
great story, And I agree it'sa very special story. Now you talk
about and very eloquently. I mightadd the struggle that each of your parents
went through in their union to formtheir union, But you characterize it primarily
(12:48):
in terms of having to physically leavetheir families your father on the West Coast,
your mother in another country, andmake family together. But this struggle
was compounded by the times in whichthey living, because they got married in
I think it was sixty five,that was two years before Loving versus Virginia.
So the getting married in the UnitedStates is a black man and a
(13:11):
woman who was perceived but as whitewomen, I mean, notwithstanding her African
roots. Did you get a senseat all when you were growing up?
Well two questions here there are thiscompound question. First, did you get
a sense of this struggle? Didyou feel growing up in your family that
your parents were regarded any differently thananyone else? In the second question,
how did they talk to you aboutthis rich heritage you had inherited? But
(13:37):
how did they talk to you aboutit in the times in America where this
wasn't as celebrated. You know,it's interesting, you know it was an
interracial marriage and at a time whenin certain states that wasn't legal, right,
So they were married here in NewYork City at City Hall, which
(13:58):
is funny because Karmi and I whenwe got married, we also got married
at city Hall. We chose toget married on the first day of legalized
gay marriage in the state of NewYork, which was I believe July twenty
fourth, twenty eleven. At thatpoint, Carma and I had been living
together for many years. We hadbeen We had met in college in nineteen
(14:20):
eighty nine, so we had beentogether for over twenty years at that point,
but we weren't able to get marriedlegally until that law passed, and
so we wanted to show that wewere after being together for twenty years but
not having made it official. Theday that we made it official, we
felt like it should be part ofsomething bigger. It was a little bit
(14:41):
of a little bit of political,a little bit of personal, a little
bit of public, a little bitof private. So and when I talk
about that political, personal, public, private, that's how I think about
my parents in their own attitude towardtheir own mixed race, their own interracial
interfaith marriage, I think again,they chose New York City and Columbia University
(15:05):
very deliberately and surrounded them with intellectuals, with you know, people who are
in leaders in culture and art andin academia, and I think they created,
you know, a very supportive environmentaround them, which again I would
(15:26):
say is another legacy which they passeddown to me and Carmine, you know,
not surprisingly, again, we arehere in New York City. We
are in the state, the firststate where you know, gay marriage was
legalized by you know, recognized andlegalized by the government. So and we
too have built a life for ourselveswhich is surrounded by people who are forward
(15:52):
thinking and cultural and intellectual leaders.So you're given circumstances and advantages and limitations
that you inherit or that you carrywith you. But then you also have
the freedom to make your own world, and to make a world that will
be most sort of hospitable to youas a couple and as a family.
(16:15):
You know, Carmon and I whenwe decided to have children, at that
time, we were a couple livingin Chelsea, and I realized that,
you know, it takes a villageto raise a family, and Carmon and
I very deliberately moved from Chelsea toTribeca. We moved from you know,
a singles couple's environment to a veryfamily environment, and sure enough, in
(16:38):
this neighborhood of Tribeca, we havefound schools which I'm very involved with that
you know, at the kid's schools. I've always been very involved in their
schools. I'm currently on the schoolLeadership Team at PS two thirty four,
which is a group of parents,teachers, and administrators who helped shape you
know, policy at the school indifferent ways. I've always volunteered in the
(17:00):
classroom. I've always been a I'mpractically there every day at school volunteering in
the library. I spend half myday raising children and the other half of
the day raising artists. So forno, because I know you so well
and know you to be such asmart and savvy thinker, you have managed
(17:21):
to cover already sort of the waterfrontof the things I want to talk to
you about. I'm going to backup because there's so much I want to
unpack in there. The first ofall, I must say, you are
singing my song with respect to talkingabout how involved you are in your children's
daily almost education. I am ona soapbox, and I will know never
(17:41):
get off of when I talk toparents about the importance of showing up physically
if you can. But in anyway that you can for your children in
schools, because it's so vital thatteachers, administrators, and your children see
you as part of the school commune. I mean, it's important obviously other
parents see you, but I thinkit's also important that your children see you.
(18:07):
The one quick thing I would add, though, to parents who don't
have the ability to show up becauseof work and as often as they would
like, it's always important for youto find the Bernards in your school,
to find the people who are ableto be there and befriend them, take
them off our coffee, get toknow them, because it's very important for
(18:30):
you, even if you can't physicallybe in the school, to understand the
school culture, to get a senseof what's going on. And so Bernard,
you provide a valuable service not onlyin your being there, but then
you're being able to help other parentswho can't quite spend as much time as
you with letting them know what's goingon. What you're saying is really important
and interesting to me because that's alsothe same the same sort of credo that
(18:55):
I apply to patrons and supporting artiststhat there are many different ways artists need
support of all kinds. They needthe big collectors to make to make the
big you know purchases. They needcollectors who will connect them with curators.
They need you know, patrons whowill support projects that are outside the scope
of a gallery. They need patronswho will introduce them to other artists or
(19:21):
will help find them a studio space. The same thing with parenting. Yeah,
and I totally understand, you knowthat all parents, you know,
parents have different ways of giving totheir school communities or to showing up for
their children. And I think whatmakes a wonderful school community environment is those
the richness of that. You know, they're the Bernards who volunteer at the
(19:44):
library. But then there are alsothe you know, the moms who will
set up as an auction, youknow who work at Christie's for instance,
and will run the school auction forto day, or you know, a
parent who has a connection to arestaurant who will open up the restaurant for
a school party or will help organizea trip or in other ways, or
(20:07):
who will write a big check andthe PTA can then use that money for
enrichment and other resources that the wholeschool benefits from. So I feel like
that model of you know, likemy mother, for instance, she was
not the girl Scout cookie mom,but she was the mom who would come
and teach poetry at our classes.Or she was the mom who would teach
my friend's language, you know,Spanish and French, and my sister's you
(20:32):
know friends too. So that kindof rich parent community is also something which
I value and which I learned frommy parents, and which connects what I
do as a patron to what Iwho I am as a parent. We'll
be right back after these messages.Welcome back to the show. Still,
(20:53):
you know, Bernard, A coupleof things. First, I do want
to emphasize the patronage, the artpatronage, because you not only collect art
like many people do, but youinspire and encourage lift up, as you
say, artists. You have veryspecial relationships with artists at various points in
their artistic lives. I mean,you know artists who are very young,
(21:17):
who are just beginning their practice,and you stay connected to them as their
practice gets bigger. You know,we hear about artists who are suddenly very
well known and their collection, theirwork goes for lots of money, and
they're kind of become artists slash celebrities. But for every one of them,
there are hundreds of artists who havea vision or are metaphorically in the backyard
(21:41):
looking at the stars through the telescope. They know that they want to create
something they don't haven't quite perfected thelanguage to do it, or they it's
to stay with the telescope metaphor thelenses blurry. But they need help,
They need assistance. They need support, sometimes monetary support, sometimes economic support,
(22:03):
but that's just often sort of uh, sort of emotional support to help
them find their visions. So asI listened to you describe your upbringing and
and and I staying with this conceptof this rich cultural heritage. I mean,
you know so many so two people, your parents, with so many
(22:23):
differences they they from from religion torace, to country to culture. They
get together and they clearly believe inin the the some being great departs together
they create a world where they getto have lots of commonality. But they
bring so much to their table,and and and it's and it's a good
(22:45):
thing. And so and then theyhave children and they teach their children that
the gorgeous mosaic, as Mayor Dinkinsused to say, this rich cultural stupot
of their life is a positive thingthat you're only are by the expansion of
your worlds to include these two bigand very different worlds. And the reason
(23:07):
I'm pointing that out is because youknow the story of people who are who
grow up in the United States ininterracial families, people who are of mixed
race is sometimes a story of stressbecause it's having to choose, and it's
having to how it is being definedby how people outside perceive you. That
is, do they make you decidewhether you are you know what your race
(23:30):
is or how you're going to alignyourselves with it. But it sounds like
your parents brought you up to sortof just truly be able to appreciate the
unique position in which you stand.Did in fact you grow up thinking,
Wow, I am special because Ihave all these different worlds in me.
Or was there some stress about Idon't look like these people, and I
(23:51):
don't look like these people, andpeople are making me choose? You know?
I think I was. I wasalways aware of how I was different
than my friends growing up, particularlysince we grew up in a very homogeneous
white town La Jolla, California,a town which my father remembers growing up
(24:14):
in Watts, a town which ifyou were black, you weren't supposed to
be walking around after dark. Somy father charted a course through his telescope
far beyond a small black urban innercity environment to the magical, wonderful world
(24:34):
of New York City with all ofhis possibilities cultural, political, intellectual,
and decided though that he wanted toraise us as a family back in California,
in a small town. And hewas looking for jobs in California,
and he got a job as aprofessor at UCSD. This was after Columbia
(24:56):
University, after he was done doinghis post doctoral work at co Lumbia University,
his PhD and his post doctoral work. So he wanted us to come
back to California, in part becausehe wanted us to be close to his
own family and his extended family andmy grandmother. And UCSD is the University
of California in San Diego, whichis the campus location, which is in
(25:19):
La Joya. So ironically we endedup being raised in a very small,
homogeneous white town which had a historyof racism, a prejudice, and for
my dad it was being black.For my mother, you know, my
friends would call our house at school, you know, for to play date
(25:41):
or to hang out, and myparents, my friends would say, you
know, o, Bernard, Italked to your maid earlier, and I
was like, no, no,that was my mom because of her accent.
She had an accent. You knowwhatever white Anglo Saxon prosens in southern
California looks like it was very Christian, It was very white. It was
a wealthy community and had a historyof prejudice toward people who were not wealthy,
(26:04):
white and Christian. My mother wasJewish, my father was black.
But you know, for my father, I think he wanted us to,
you know, meet that challenge,and I think he understood that we had
certain advantages that he didn't have growingup in watts and you know, we
had opportunities to get a better education. We had parents who understood and supported
(26:29):
who we were, my sister andmyself in our academic interests. And I
felt supported in that, you know, in that way from my parents.
I felt a lot of love inspite of the fact that we were growing
up in a very you know,very homogeneous in some ways, very narrow
community. And you know, beingmixed race is of many multi layered complex
(26:53):
experience. The way I presented tomy friends didn't read as black, and
my friends either thought I was Tanor maybe there was some you know,
Italian or European heritage. And soin the small southern California beach town of
La Joya, I looked like atan kid, which is, you know,
(27:18):
not a problem and maybe even somethingof a cool cuotient. So and
I was good in school, andI was good at track, and I
had a lot of friends, andI love that I was aware that I
was different. I was aware thatI was black. I was aware that
I was My mother was Jewish.There was a Jewish community in La Joya,
so it wasn't completely sort of segregatedin that religious way. But I
(27:44):
had to sort of selectively choose.I was able to selectively choose how I
would present and express myself. AndI didn't have conflict around that because I
didn't present my I didn't present asAfrican American. I think I didn't experience
some of the racism direct racism that, for instance, my sister experienced.
(28:07):
And she would tell you a verydifferent experience of growing up in La Joya
as a girl and as a girlwho has you know, had more you
know, her hair and her featuresand her skin tone sort of read more
African American, you know, Andthat's it's tough for me, and it's
sad for me because I see howthat has shaped her life in many ways
(28:30):
positive and also challenging. I thinkwhat I learned growing up in La Joya
was how to play the chameleon,which I think is a phrase that one
of my mentors and professors when Iwas in graduate school Harvard taught me and
our fellow board member now Henry LewisGates Junior, this idea of you know,
playing the chameleon, which may besomething from black literature figures, the
(28:52):
trickster figure, uh, the outlawfigure, which is also with my dissertation
topic actually. And so I learnedalways that I could pass, and the
power and the privilege, but alsothe pain of passing, which is,
you know, you are able tomove through society undetected, which has many
(29:15):
advantages and I think which has helpedme in many ways. But you're also
painfully aware of number one of thosewho who share your same ethnic racial makeup,
but who for the chance of youknow, biology of dermatology, don't
have that ability to pass, andso I was comfortable passing. I also
(29:38):
was aware that I was gay atsome point in high school, and I
also kept that under wraps because thatwas something that would have been problematic in
other in other ways, the factthat I was gay, black, and
Jewish was kind of amazing in away that I survived, that I survived
unscathed, and I would say,I would say I had a really great
(30:00):
time in high school. I hada lot of fun, and you know,
I have my closest friends are stillmy high school friends. But I
had to sort of thread the needle. And I also realized one last quick
thing is that my parents' main goalfor us was to get a good education
and get into a good school.And it was my father's dream that we
go to the kind of schools thathis parents couldn't afford to send him to,
(30:22):
that his parents wouldn't know to sendhim to. So as long as
I kept my nose to the grindstoneat school, then my parents were very
supportive and very permissive and very generouswith us. And it was also something
I was very aware that I wasn'tgoing to wave my gay flag or my
black flag because it would be.I was somehow aware that that might cause
(30:48):
problems for me in school that evenI didn't want to deal with. I
just wanted to like focus on school, have some friends. If it meant
I had to pass in order todo that, that was the price of
passing, but it was a priceI was willing to pay. And I
knew that at some point later inlife I would have a chance to have
sort of a referendum on my ownyouth. And so much of you know,
(31:10):
this book is about that. Youknow, so much of this book,
your book, You're Young Gifted inBlack book right exactly that I couldn't
write a story that I couldn't tellearlier in life for all these reasons,
because I was trying to get ahead, to make a place for myself,
and I didn't want to suffer thestruggles and the hurdles that I saw my
(31:30):
father struggle suffer because he was black, visibly black. So I was waiting
for the right moment to sort ofcome out as it were, as you
know, African American, as mixedrace, and embracing that it fully.
You know, it's so interesting.But because as one who grew up with
family members a variety of shades.I have aunts that are blonde haired and
(31:53):
blue eyed, and I have youknow, just and I have aunts,
aunts and uncles who were mahaga aney tone. Really, my family on
both sides have a variety of hues. The concept of having family members that
didn't look black was part of myfamily. But what's interesting to me in
(32:13):
listening to you and it's is justthis concept of passing for me and just
sort of generally speaking, has alwaysbeen characterized so negatively because the supposition is
that someone who is willing to allowthe world to see them in a way
that they know they are not itbreaks something inside of them and that they
(32:36):
are denying themselves or they are ashamedor hiding or some there's sort of a
pejorative nature. It's interesting to hearyou to talk. It's almost as if
this was a means to an end. And let me just clarify one thing.
What you're calling passing. Is itjust not identifying yourself as a black
(32:58):
person, or is it if there'ssome some sort of racial joke or some
racist behavior. Are you squashing whatmight be a real reaction? I mean,
what what is what is passing?What are you defining as passing.
I mean, I just think notletting people know that, you know that,
mind that I'm mixed raise and myfather is black, and them not
(33:19):
knowing unless I pointed out to them, right, I guess that's were you
ever in a circumstance where things aresaid that you know they wouldn't have said
if they knew you were black?Yes, exactly, yes. And what
would you do when you would findyourself in that circumstance, Depending on the
context or the you know, theperson, I would either you know,
(33:40):
out myself or I would say,oh, by the way, you know.
You may not you may not beaware of this, but but I'm
black. Just like that amazing workby Adrian piper m you know, the
calling cards piece, where she wouldwalk around with these calling cards and when
someone said, you know, infront of her, or she overheard someone
(34:02):
make aritten insensitive or a racist ora prejudice comment, she would hand them
the card and it said, thiscard says, and I have them here
on the wall as a reminder andin case I ever need to use it
here at home. You know itsays, you know, it says,
dear friend, I am black.I am sure you did not realize this
when you made laughed at agreed withthat racist remark in the past. I
(34:24):
regret any discomfort my presence is causingyou, just as I'm sure you regret
the discomfort your racism is causing me. That's like a shorthand version of the
of it. But you know,my mother would always say, it's funny
when she overheard someone say, youknow, in La Joya, in the
supermarket or at the store, atthe bakery, or at the coffee shop,
(34:46):
makes some insensitive racist comment, youknow, she would say. And
my mother was you know, herskin was light, she was light skinned,
even though she was North African Jewish. She would say, oh,
you know, I'm black, orshe would say, you know, my
husband is black. Like she wouldcome out and let people know, you
know, that they were in thepresence of someone you know, who was
(35:08):
either directly affected or impacted or youknow, by what they were saying.
And how interesting though, and itmakes all the sense in the world that
as you got older and pursued yourpassion for art, that your gift to
the world was not only the patronageof these African American artists, but this
(35:30):
collection which is now embodied in thisbeautiful book. And what's also interesting is
that, as I was saying inwhen I was growing up talking about passing,
it was always like this that anybodywho could conceive of that concept couldn't
also be proud of who they are. And you are belying that concept like
(35:51):
you were clearly proud. It wasn'tas if you were ashamed or concerned or
felt badly about your father being black, and like that was a wonderful thing.
It was not the thing that youled with. So interesting, really
interesting, and this makes me wantto fast forward immediately to your three children,
because first, first a question.You and Carmine race have had these
(36:12):
beautiful children and they they resemble you. So since can you talk a little
bit about how your family was formed? Are they all mixed race children?
I mean, how did genetics beingwhat they are and biology being what it
is, how did they come tobe? You know, the children are
you know, the children reflect geneticallyand biologically. Both are heritages, Carmine
(36:37):
and myself, and you know,obviously we wanted to have We wanted that
to be the case because so wechose surrogacy rather than adoption, and we
worked with the same surrogate, anamazing woman named Hope, who carried all
three of our children and who isnow sort of a part of our family.
(36:59):
In many ways, we see her, we stay in touch with her,
and you know, she helped usrealize our dream of having a family.
Each of the children, in theirown different ways, reflect biologically,
genetically, emotionally, psychologically myself andCarmine, and we love that. I
(37:23):
think that's very important, and Ithink very much so much of what I
do in the art world is sharingand educating. You know what you can
do with a collection on the educationfront, and I do that in many
different ways by opening, for instance, we open our home to organizations,
We invite artists here. We sharethe collection through the grace of the young
(37:50):
gifted and black traveling tour. Weshare the collection these young gifted and black
artists with young people at college campuses, at college museums and university galleries around
the country. That's been a wonderfulgift. And I also know that the
children are learning about their own heritagethrough the collection, through these young gifted
and black artists who grace the wallsof their bedrooms and who come over for
(38:14):
dinner and whom they get to meetwhen Carmen and I go to the studio,
museum, gala or another event.So we you know, the children
are learning about their heritage, youknow, in the absence of you know,
my both of my parents passed awaybefore our children were born, which
is unfortunate, but it's a wayfor me too. I've thought a lot
(38:38):
about ways of helping them understand theirheritage through, you know, through the
art collection. In many ways,you know, the collection grew out of
conversations with my father, you know, to quote the book I think by
Tenajase Coats, you know, conversationswith my father that I was having towards
(39:00):
the end of his life about beingblack, about his youth, about the
telescope. I think the children havethe benefit of this. They have a
heritage on their walls, and it'sa great way to talk in the absence
of living, breathing grandparents. Theyhave other relatives of course, and my
uncles and my father's extended family,which is wonderful. But they two have
(39:22):
the opportunity to let their friends knowthat even though they may not look that
all their heritage does not necessarily comethrough in the way they look that.
I think that, you know,they have the opportunity to know and to
share and to internalize, so thatone day they may externalize their roots,
(39:43):
you know, in a way anda time and a place that feels right
to them, and that they willalways carry that with them and know that
well, that that is amazing.I have to end. I'm going to
wrap it up here, and Iwill do so with quoting you do you
In an interview with art Book,you summed up so beautifully what you are
(40:06):
saying now, and you said,I've been talking about the importance of your
children living with the art on yourwalls, and you said, I realized
that the art collection could be away for me to continue learning about the
issues that mattered most to me.My hope is that my own children,
Lucy, Felix and Zachary can participatein this educational process as well, because
(40:29):
by living with the work of theseartists, they too will better understand their
roots. So I love that comment, particularly as it so beautifully sums up
what you've been talking about. Butit also again, you're singing my song,
because I so truly believe parents ofchildren of color have an opportunity to
enrich their children's lives so tremendously byexposing them to art, all different kinds
(40:51):
of art, but especially art ofAfrican American artists. Your evidence with that
beautiful work from Adrian Piper, somany, so much thinking goes into so
much of the artwork, and itcan inspire such global to very personal conversations
that are otherwise not easily had betweenparent and child. So, Bernard,
(41:12):
I'm very happy that this your veryspecial and unique set of life experiences have
brought you to where to now withthis book and with this mission. Certainly
it's been beneficial to you, butthanks to you, it's also will be
beneficial to parents everywhere. So thatis amazing. I hope, so,
(41:37):
I hope, so, Carol,I appreciate the opportunity to share these ideas
and to share this time with you, and I hope it will be a
continuation of our dialogue on these topics. Absolutely, there's so much more to
talk about, but I'm going towrap it up here. Thank you once
again for joining me, and askyou to play the GCP Lightning Round so
(42:00):
for four quick questions, and theyare, first of all, the favorite
poem or saying yeah it takes avillage. Yeah, it takes a village
to be a parent. It takesa village to be a patron, absolutely
perfectly. And tell me your favoritetwo children's books, either from reaching back
(42:22):
to some that you remember growing upor some that you love to read with
your children. I loved so growingup. You know Huckleberry Finn, which
is a landmark work of American literature, and a story of a story of
mixed a mixed race story in thesense of Huckleberry Finn and Jim's friendship and
(42:45):
relationship, which I found endlessly fascinatingand I loved. There was a quote
from that book which I remember citingon an essay I wrote in seventh grade
or eighth grade, which my teacherloved. And it was a quote where
huck Finn talks about, you know, the difference between a kid and an
(43:07):
adult, or or the narrator talksabout this, and he said that,
you know, adults, you know, adults and children tell lies, but
children don't lie to themselves. Andsomehow that stayed with me. You know,
children lie, of course and getin trouble for it, as do
adults. But what makes children differentis that they don't know yet or they
(43:30):
haven't learned yet to lie to themselves. And the other book that I love,
you know, for the kids,there's many books that I love to
read. To read them is thisbook called Guess how Much I Love You?
And it's just about it's a bookthat shows it's about just how far
(43:52):
a parent will go for their child. That the that the endless, The
love of a parent to it childis endless. And then the last page
is sort of you know, Ilove you right up to the moon,
he said, and closed his eyes. Oh that's far, said big nut
brown hair. That is very,very far. He leaned over and kissed
(44:16):
him good night. Then he laydown close by and with sword with a
smile, I love you right upto the moon and back. That's a
beautiful book. Yeah, love islove is infinite. And I think the
best way to experience that is beinga parent. What would you do over
I mean, any dad moments you'relike, shoot, I know how to
(44:37):
do that better? And then theopposite, tell me an instance where you
just nailed it, nailed it asa dad. I'm sure there are many,
you know, I would say,first of all, being a parent
every day it's like free therapy.It's like therapy twenty four. No one
(44:58):
told me as a parent that youknow, you would actually end up working
on yourself more and hopefully improving yourself. I mean, the whole idea is
that you're improving this child, you'reraising a child, you're helping them understand
themselves. But what actually happens alongthe way, if you're if you're aware,
and if you embrace it, isthat you actually learn a lot about
yourself. And I would just useone the same moment to describe to answer
(45:22):
I think both of your questions,which is, you know our youngest is
at an age where temper tantrums happen, and the other day and I could
give many examples of this, Sothis is these are not a moment that
happened and then won't happen again.These are moments that happen all the time.
(45:43):
The other day, he was wantingto be carried rather than walking,
even though you know he's at anage where he can walk on his own,
but he was wanting to be carried. And you know, I was
tired, or I was in themode of the parent mode of okay,
And this is a time when thechild has to learn to do what he's
supposed to do rather than what hewants, you know, which is important
(46:06):
to teach your children that. Butyou know, he was, he was
I you know, so I said, I said, you know, no,
you have to walk, and youknow, my retribution for that,
or my payback for that, wasa big temper tantrum. And you know,
I realized that I would rather.I realized that I you know,
(46:30):
I said, no, you haveto walk or or we're not going to
go. You know, you haveto walk, there's no choice. And
the next and that results in thetemper tantrum. The next day he the
same thing happened, and this timeI said, okay, I understand you
(46:51):
want to be carried. How aboutthis? How about I carry you to
the store. But then we walkhome from the store and thought about it
and he said okay. So theprevious day I felt like, you know,
a parent maybe who didn't do theright thing, Because when your child
shows throws a temper tantrum, it'seasy to feel like, Okay, what
(47:12):
did I do wrong? You know, or anybody witnessing the temper tantrum would
be like, wow, what didthat parent do? And I also felt
like I wasn't being my best inthat moment. I felt like, what
could I do differently? What couldI do better? You know? And
sure enough, with parenting you'll getanother chance the next day or the next
hour. The fine art of successfulnegotiating. But you're also teaching that sometimes
(47:42):
you don't get what you want,so you have to think about different ways
just get some of what you want. I mean, that's a valuable lesson
for everybody, for parents and forchildren. So Bernard, yeah, unsurprisingly,
those were great answers, and again, I thank you so much for
being with us today. I knowthat parents listen everywhere listening really appreciate your
(48:05):
thoughtfulness, your experience, and yourstories, your advice. Thanks so much,
Thank you, Carol, thank youagain for having me on the show.
I hope everyone listening enjoyed this conversationthat you'll come back for more.
Please subscribe, rate and review whereyou find your podcasts, and tell your
friends. For more parenting info andadvice, please check out the Ground Control
(48:25):
Parenting website at wwwgroundcontrolparenting dot com.You can also find us on Facebook and
Instagram at ground Control Parenting and onLinkedIn under Carol Sutton Lewis. Until the
next time, take care and thanksfor listening.
Hello, and welcome to Ground ControlParenting, a blog and now a podcast
creative for parents raising black and brownchildren. I'm the creator and your host,
Carol Sutton Lewis. In this podcastseries, I talk with some really
interesting people about the job and thejoy of parenting. Today, I am
so excited to talk with our guest, Bernard I. Lumpkin. Bernard is
(00:25):
a contemporary art collector, a patron, and educator whose commitment of both emerging
and established artists of African descent ispart of his broader mission of institutional advocacy
and support. Bernard currently sits onthe board of Trustees of the Studio Museum
in Harlem, as I do,and I'm thrilled to have him as a
fellow board member. He's also onthe board of Sclehegan School of Painting and
Sculpture at the Whitney Museum of AmericanArt. He serves on the Education Committee
(00:49):
and on the Painting and Sculpture Committee. At the Museum of Modern Art,
he serves on the Media and PerformanceCommittee, and he's also the vice chair
of the Friends of Education patron group. And his husband Carmin and PICUTSI,
have amassed an amazing art collection,which is dominated by works of artists of
color. The Lumpkin Picutsie Family collectionis the subject of a best selling book,
(01:11):
Young, Gifted and Black, anew generation of artists, and it's
also the subject of a nationwide travelingexhibition which began in twenty nineteen. Bernard
was educated at Harvard and Yale.At Yale, who served on the Dean's
Council of the School of Art.Bernard and Carmine are the proud parents of
twins Lucy and Felix, who arenine and a half, and Zachary,
who's four and a half. Welcometo ground Control Parenting, Bernard, thank
(01:36):
you Carol for having me on theshow. Great to be here. I
am so glad to have you herewith us talk about raising children with art,
which is one of my favorite topics, and I'm also looking forward to
talking with you about lots of otherparenting topics, including being biracial and raising
biracial kids, and lots of goodstuff like that. So let's get started.
I'll ask you, as I askmany of my guests, to start
(01:57):
by talking about how you were raised. Can you tell me a little bit
about where you were raised, whereyou grew up, and a little bit
about what it was like to growup in your family. Well, Carol,
it's funny. I can think ofall of our conversations over the years
as fellow trustees in the Studio MuseumBoard and also fellow patrons of art in
(02:19):
New York City, and I knowthat you and I have at different times
talked briefly about our experience in parentingand patroning, as I call it.
And this is a wonderful opportunity todive a little deeper into these subjects.
And I know your question, youknow, about family really is where parenting
(02:40):
begins, right, It's where welearn how to love. It's where we
learn how to teach our children aboutthe world, and it's where we hopefully
learn to to, you know,pass on what we were given and the
gifts that our parents gave us toour children, and pass on the gifts
(03:01):
and not all the baggage, hopefully, right. We certainly, we hope,
so we hope. So yes,I'm sure this is exactly what our
own parents said, and their parentsbefore them said that. But I grew
up in a very unique, wonderful, loving household. I say unique,
(03:23):
I would say because of my parents'ethnic and racial background. My father was
African American born and raised in Watts, Los Angeles, and my mother was
Sephardic Jewish from Morocco, born andraised in Tangiers. And so they in
an individually represented very different cultural,cultural, ethnic, and religious heritages,
(03:49):
and they in turn, you know, passed that rich tradition onto myself and
my sister, and I in turnam hoping to share that with my own
children. It's a wonderful heritage.It's unusual, and it has shaped my
experience in many different ways. Youknow, shorthand would be to say that
(04:11):
I'm mixed race, but I shouldalso say that I'm a mixed religion and
mixed languages. My mother spoke Frenchand Spanish to me as a child,
and I then studied that in school, so that became part of my linguistic
heritage, and also just a senseof a very broad sense of culture and
language and religion. So that wasreally important to me. And you know,
(04:35):
my father and my mother, eachin their own way, had to
find their way in the world throughtheir own roots, and I think for
my father, growing up in Watts, Los Angeles was subformative experience for him,
and it in turn informed a lotof my thinking about my role as
(04:55):
an art collector and a patron,because I was very interested in in sort
of using my father's heritage as astarting point for exploring conversations with artists of
African descent about issues like family,about race, about nation, about what
it means to be black in America, what it means to grow up black
(05:16):
in America. So on my father'sside, first, I would just say
that my father was was very mucha unicorn growing up and watched in the
fifties. He wanted to be nota lawyer, not a doctor, not
a businessman, but a scientist anda certain kind of scientist, a physicist.
(05:36):
So he was very much an intellectualand he loved learning, and I
think he loved being in school.And you know, that was one of
the first things that my parents passedon to me both my parents was a
love of learning and a love ofeducation and a joy that comes from discovering
(06:00):
life and knowledge. So my fatherwas educated at the best public schools.
He won awards in all subjects English, math, journalism, but science and
physics was what he excelled in,and he graduated at the top of his
class and went to Saint Mary's Collegein the Bay Area for college, but
(06:21):
then was wanting to, I think, expand his world a little bit.
I think, get out of Californiaand you know, in high school,
just an anecdote about my father whichsays a lot about who he was,
and which also for me has becomea symbol of what it means to you
know, what creative black genius lookslike. He loved science and loved astronomy
(06:46):
as part of science and physics,but his parents couldn't afford to buy him
a telescope, and so he builtone from scratch, which was an amazing
you know, for a sixteen yearold to build a telescope from scratch.
And you know, for my father, I always think of that image of
him, you know, in hisbackyard and watched Los Angeles pointing that telescope
(07:09):
to the stars and envisioning a differentworld for himself, you know, imagining
you seeing the universe and all theinfinite possibility that the universe presents itself when
we look up at the stars atnight. And I think he as a
teenager loving science, knowing that optionswere limited for him in his immediate community
(07:29):
and place in where he was bornand raised, but having a vision for
the future that hadn't yet happened,but he knew that it was out there
for him. To me, that'salways been a very important symbol and also
a symbol of the artists that Icollect in terms of what an artist does,
you know, imagining a reality thatdoesn't yet exist and figuring out how
(07:50):
to get there, how to makethat your reality, how to make that
dream a reality, how to makethat vision vibrant and real. So that's
such a beautiful I'm sorry, Ididn't mean to interrupt, but that's such
a beautiful image. I can seeyour father in the backyard of a sixteen
year old So that's how lovely thatyou have that as a north Star.
(08:11):
I'm pardon the punt, but yeah, yeah, that's exactly that's exactly what
it is, you know. AndI think on my mother's side too,
you know, it's funny both myI had these African roots on both sides
of my family. My father AfricanAmerican and my mother North African from Morocco.
And you know, my mother,for her her dream was, you
(08:33):
know, to become a scholar alsoof literature and They both ended up at
Columbia University in graduate school in thesixties, and you know, each pursuing
in a sense, each you know, my mother sort of migrating from Tangiers,
Morocco, to the United States withother members of her family, my
(08:56):
father, you know, making apilgrimage from California to New York City,
and each found their home and Ithink found there. You know, they
were soulmates in New York City atthat time, and it was the time
of civil rights. It was atime of great cultural and political debate and
dialogue. University campus, you know, obviously was a special place to be
(09:22):
in that time, as campuses alwaysare. And they met and they fell
in love, and they collaborated both, you know, in terms of their
you know, their academic interest.My father was was an intense Francophile and
loved French culture, French literature.My mother was studying French literature at Columbia.
(09:45):
They were both interested in civil rights. My father was very active in
establishing the first open admissions policy asCity college here in New York. During
those years. He saw his roleas a scienti as an educator, He
saw that as an activist role thathe could have an impact and make a
(10:05):
difference, make more opportunities, pavemore pathways for young black sciences like himself
to make it to universities like Columbia, to corporations like IBM where he worked.
So it was a very important momentfor my parents. I think they
were meant to meet. I thinkthey uplifted each other and they each sort
(10:30):
of became each other's new families.They had to separate from their families in
order to pursue their dreams. Therewas obviously struggle and pain and hardship and
having to do that in order tosort of reinvent yourself in order to become
yourself and so, but I thinkthat lesson is something which I have looked
(10:52):
at and thought about a lot inmy parents that you know, we are
given certain gifts, we are givencertain case abilities, and the rest we
have to sort of create on ourown and make possible our own dreams and
our own wishes. I think myparents instilled in me a love of family,
(11:13):
a love of you know, theyboth had big families, that both
came from big families. But Idon't think my parents could have told me
how myself being gay would would figureout how to make a family. It's
like I inherited from my parents' loveof family and a desire to have a
big family, But I don't thinkthey could have told me how to make
(11:35):
that happen in my particular situation,you know. And I think the same
with my parents. My father loved, you know, being black and celebrating
his heritage was very important to him. But in terms of being a scientist
and being a black physicist, hisparents couldn't have showed him how to celebrate
his family his cultural heritage in thatway or support him professionally. I think
(12:01):
they taught him to work hard,to do well in school, and to
you know, to work hard andto do well in school. They did
not send him to a special schoolfor science. He could not have.
He didn't go to the Ivy Leagueschools the way he sent myself and my
sister. So you know, weare given so much from our parents and
(12:22):
then we have to make the restof it ourselves. And I love that
my parents, each in their ownway, taught me that. What a
great story, And I agree it'sa very special story. Now you talk
about and very eloquently. I mightadd the struggle that each of your parents
went through in their union to formtheir union, But you characterize it primarily
(12:48):
in terms of having to physically leavetheir families your father on the West Coast,
your mother in another country, andmake family together. But this struggle
was compounded by the times in whichthey living, because they got married in
I think it was sixty five,that was two years before Loving versus Virginia.
So the getting married in the UnitedStates is a black man and a
(13:11):
woman who was perceived but as whitewomen, I mean, notwithstanding her African
roots. Did you get a senseat all when you were growing up?
Well two questions here there are thiscompound question. First, did you get
a sense of this struggle? Didyou feel growing up in your family that
your parents were regarded any differently thananyone else? In the second question,
how did they talk to you aboutthis rich heritage you had inherited? But
(13:37):
how did they talk to you aboutit in the times in America where this
wasn't as celebrated. You know,it's interesting, you know it was an
interracial marriage and at a time whenin certain states that wasn't legal, right,
So they were married here in NewYork City at City Hall, which
(13:58):
is funny because Karmi and I whenwe got married, we also got married
at city Hall. We chose toget married on the first day of legalized
gay marriage in the state of NewYork, which was I believe July twenty
fourth, twenty eleven. At thatpoint, Carma and I had been living
together for many years. We hadbeen We had met in college in nineteen
(14:20):
eighty nine, so we had beentogether for over twenty years at that point,
but we weren't able to get marriedlegally until that law passed, and
so we wanted to show that wewere after being together for twenty years but
not having made it official. Theday that we made it official, we
felt like it should be part ofsomething bigger. It was a little bit
(14:41):
of a little bit of political,a little bit of personal, a little
bit of public, a little bitof private. So and when I talk
about that political, personal, public, private, that's how I think about
my parents in their own attitude towardtheir own mixed race, their own interracial
interfaith marriage, I think again,they chose New York City and Columbia University
(15:05):
very deliberately and surrounded them with intellectuals, with you know, people who are
in leaders in culture and art andin academia, and I think they created,
you know, a very supportive environmentaround them, which again I would
(15:26):
say is another legacy which they passeddown to me and Carmine, you know,
not surprisingly, again, we arehere in New York City. We
are in the state, the firststate where you know, gay marriage was
legalized by you know, recognized andlegalized by the government. So and we
too have built a life for ourselveswhich is surrounded by people who are forward
(15:52):
thinking and cultural and intellectual leaders.So you're given circumstances and advantages and limitations
that you inherit or that you carrywith you. But then you also have
the freedom to make your own world, and to make a world that will
be most sort of hospitable to youas a couple and as a family.
(16:15):
You know, Carmon and I whenwe decided to have children, at that
time, we were a couple livingin Chelsea, and I realized that,
you know, it takes a villageto raise a family, and Carmon and
I very deliberately moved from Chelsea toTribeca. We moved from you know,
a singles couple's environment to a veryfamily environment, and sure enough, in
(16:38):
this neighborhood of Tribeca, we havefound schools which I'm very involved with that
you know, at the kid's schools. I've always been very involved in their
schools. I'm currently on the schoolLeadership Team at PS two thirty four,
which is a group of parents,teachers, and administrators who helped shape you
know, policy at the school indifferent ways. I've always volunteered in the
(17:00):
classroom. I've always been a I'mpractically there every day at school volunteering in
the library. I spend half myday raising children and the other half of
the day raising artists. So forno, because I know you so well
and know you to be such asmart and savvy thinker, you have managed
(17:21):
to cover already sort of the waterfrontof the things I want to talk to
you about. I'm going to backup because there's so much I want to
unpack in there. The first ofall, I must say, you are
singing my song with respect to talkingabout how involved you are in your children's
daily almost education. I am ona soapbox, and I will know never
(17:41):
get off of when I talk toparents about the importance of showing up physically
if you can. But in anyway that you can for your children in
schools, because it's so vital thatteachers, administrators, and your children see
you as part of the school commune. I mean, it's important obviously other
parents see you, but I thinkit's also important that your children see you.
(18:07):
The one quick thing I would add, though, to parents who don't
have the ability to show up becauseof work and as often as they would
like, it's always important for youto find the Bernards in your school,
to find the people who are ableto be there and befriend them, take
them off our coffee, get toknow them, because it's very important for
(18:30):
you, even if you can't physicallybe in the school, to understand the
school culture, to get a senseof what's going on. And so Bernard,
you provide a valuable service not onlyin your being there, but then
you're being able to help other parentswho can't quite spend as much time as
you with letting them know what's goingon. What you're saying is really important
and interesting to me because that's alsothe same the same sort of credo that
(18:55):
I apply to patrons and supporting artiststhat there are many different ways artists need
support of all kinds. They needthe big collectors to make to make the
big you know purchases. They needcollectors who will connect them with curators.
They need you know, patrons whowill support projects that are outside the scope
of a gallery. They need patronswho will introduce them to other artists or
(19:21):
will help find them a studio space. The same thing with parenting. Yeah,
and I totally understand, you knowthat all parents, you know,
parents have different ways of giving totheir school communities or to showing up for
their children. And I think whatmakes a wonderful school community environment is those
the richness of that. You know, they're the Bernards who volunteer at the
(19:44):
library. But then there are alsothe you know, the moms who will
set up as an auction, youknow who work at Christie's for instance,
and will run the school auction forto day, or you know, a
parent who has a connection to arestaurant who will open up the restaurant for
a school party or will help organizea trip or in other ways, or
(20:07):
who will write a big check andthe PTA can then use that money for
enrichment and other resources that the wholeschool benefits from. So I feel like
that model of you know, likemy mother, for instance, she was
not the girl Scout cookie mom,but she was the mom who would come
and teach poetry at our classes.Or she was the mom who would teach
my friend's language, you know,Spanish and French, and my sister's you
(20:32):
know friends too. So that kindof rich parent community is also something which
I value and which I learned frommy parents, and which connects what I
do as a patron to what Iwho I am as a parent. We'll
be right back after these messages.Welcome back to the show. Still,
(20:53):
you know, Bernard, A coupleof things. First, I do want
to emphasize the patronage, the artpatronage, because you not only collect art
like many people do, but youinspire and encourage lift up, as you
say, artists. You have veryspecial relationships with artists at various points in
their artistic lives. I mean,you know artists who are very young,
(21:17):
who are just beginning their practice,and you stay connected to them as their
practice gets bigger. You know,we hear about artists who are suddenly very
well known and their collection, theirwork goes for lots of money, and
they're kind of become artists slash celebrities. But for every one of them,
there are hundreds of artists who havea vision or are metaphorically in the backyard
(21:41):
looking at the stars through the telescope. They know that they want to create
something they don't haven't quite perfected thelanguage to do it, or they it's
to stay with the telescope metaphor thelenses blurry. But they need help,
They need assistance. They need support, sometimes monetary support, sometimes economic support,
(22:03):
but that's just often sort of uh, sort of emotional support to help
them find their visions. So asI listened to you describe your upbringing and
and and I staying with this conceptof this rich cultural heritage. I mean,
you know so many so two people, your parents, with so many
(22:23):
differences they they from from religion torace, to country to culture. They
get together and they clearly believe inin the the some being great departs together
they create a world where they getto have lots of commonality. But they
bring so much to their table,and and and it's and it's a good
(22:45):
thing. And so and then theyhave children and they teach their children that
the gorgeous mosaic, as Mayor Dinkinsused to say, this rich cultural stupot
of their life is a positive thingthat you're only are by the expansion of
your worlds to include these two bigand very different worlds. And the reason
(23:07):
I'm pointing that out is because youknow the story of people who are who
grow up in the United States ininterracial families, people who are of mixed
race is sometimes a story of stressbecause it's having to choose, and it's
having to how it is being definedby how people outside perceive you. That
is, do they make you decidewhether you are you know what your race
(23:30):
is or how you're going to alignyourselves with it. But it sounds like
your parents brought you up to sortof just truly be able to appreciate the
unique position in which you stand.Did in fact you grow up thinking,
Wow, I am special because Ihave all these different worlds in me.
Or was there some stress about Idon't look like these people, and I
(23:51):
don't look like these people, andpeople are making me choose? You know?
I think I was. I wasalways aware of how I was different
than my friends growing up, particularlysince we grew up in a very homogeneous
white town La Jolla, California,a town which my father remembers growing up
(24:14):
in Watts, a town which ifyou were black, you weren't supposed to
be walking around after dark. Somy father charted a course through his telescope
far beyond a small black urban innercity environment to the magical, wonderful world
(24:34):
of New York City with all ofhis possibilities cultural, political, intellectual,
and decided though that he wanted toraise us as a family back in California,
in a small town. And hewas looking for jobs in California,
and he got a job as aprofessor at UCSD. This was after Columbia
(24:56):
University, after he was done doinghis post doctoral work at co Lumbia University,
his PhD and his post doctoral work. So he wanted us to come
back to California, in part becausehe wanted us to be close to his
own family and his extended family andmy grandmother. And UCSD is the University
of California in San Diego, whichis the campus location, which is in
(25:19):
La Joya. So ironically we endedup being raised in a very small,
homogeneous white town which had a historyof racism, a prejudice, and for
my dad it was being black.For my mother, you know, my
friends would call our house at school, you know, for to play date
(25:41):
or to hang out, and myparents, my friends would say, you
know, o, Bernard, Italked to your maid earlier, and I
was like, no, no,that was my mom because of her accent.
She had an accent. You knowwhatever white Anglo Saxon prosens in southern
California looks like it was very Christian, It was very white. It was
a wealthy community and had a historyof prejudice toward people who were not wealthy,
(26:04):
white and Christian. My mother wasJewish, my father was black.
But you know, for my father, I think he wanted us to,
you know, meet that challenge,and I think he understood that we had
certain advantages that he didn't have growingup in watts and you know, we
had opportunities to get a better education. We had parents who understood and supported
(26:29):
who we were, my sister andmyself in our academic interests. And I
felt supported in that, you know, in that way from my parents.
I felt a lot of love inspite of the fact that we were growing
up in a very you know,very homogeneous in some ways, very narrow
community. And you know, beingmixed race is of many multi layered complex
(26:53):
experience. The way I presented tomy friends didn't read as black, and
my friends either thought I was Tanor maybe there was some you know,
Italian or European heritage. And soin the small southern California beach town of
La Joya, I looked like atan kid, which is, you know,
(27:18):
not a problem and maybe even somethingof a cool cuotient. So and
I was good in school, andI was good at track, and I
had a lot of friends, andI love that I was aware that I
was different. I was aware thatI was black. I was aware that
I was My mother was Jewish.There was a Jewish community in La Joya,
so it wasn't completely sort of segregatedin that religious way. But I
(27:44):
had to sort of selectively choose.I was able to selectively choose how I
would present and express myself. AndI didn't have conflict around that because I
didn't present my I didn't present asAfrican American. I think I didn't experience
some of the racism direct racism that, for instance, my sister experienced.
(28:07):
And she would tell you a verydifferent experience of growing up in La Joya
as a girl and as a girlwho has you know, had more you
know, her hair and her featuresand her skin tone sort of read more
African American, you know, Andthat's it's tough for me, and it's
sad for me because I see howthat has shaped her life in many ways
(28:30):
positive and also challenging. I thinkwhat I learned growing up in La Joya
was how to play the chameleon,which I think is a phrase that one
of my mentors and professors when Iwas in graduate school Harvard taught me and
our fellow board member now Henry LewisGates Junior, this idea of you know,
playing the chameleon, which may besomething from black literature figures, the
(28:52):
trickster figure, uh, the outlawfigure, which is also with my dissertation
topic actually. And so I learnedalways that I could pass, and the
power and the privilege, but alsothe pain of passing, which is,
you know, you are able tomove through society undetected, which has many
(29:15):
advantages and I think which has helpedme in many ways. But you're also
painfully aware of number one of thosewho who share your same ethnic racial makeup,
but who for the chance of youknow, biology of dermatology, don't
have that ability to pass, andso I was comfortable passing. I also
(29:38):
was aware that I was gay atsome point in high school, and I
also kept that under wraps because thatwas something that would have been problematic in
other in other ways, the factthat I was gay, black, and
Jewish was kind of amazing in away that I survived, that I survived
unscathed, and I would say,I would say I had a really great
(30:00):
time in high school. I hada lot of fun, and you know,
I have my closest friends are stillmy high school friends. But I
had to sort of thread the needle. And I also realized one last quick
thing is that my parents' main goalfor us was to get a good education
and get into a good school.And it was my father's dream that we
go to the kind of schools thathis parents couldn't afford to send him to,
(30:22):
that his parents wouldn't know to sendhim to. So as long as
I kept my nose to the grindstoneat school, then my parents were very
supportive and very permissive and very generouswith us. And it was also something
I was very aware that I wasn'tgoing to wave my gay flag or my
black flag because it would be.I was somehow aware that that might cause
(30:48):
problems for me in school that evenI didn't want to deal with. I
just wanted to like focus on school, have some friends. If it meant
I had to pass in order todo that, that was the price of
passing, but it was a priceI was willing to pay. And I
knew that at some point later inlife I would have a chance to have
sort of a referendum on my ownyouth. And so much of you know,
(31:10):
this book is about that. Youknow, so much of this book,
your book, You're Young Gifted inBlack book right exactly that I couldn't
write a story that I couldn't tellearlier in life for all these reasons,
because I was trying to get ahead, to make a place for myself,
and I didn't want to suffer thestruggles and the hurdles that I saw my
(31:30):
father struggle suffer because he was black, visibly black. So I was waiting
for the right moment to sort ofcome out as it were, as you
know, African American, as mixedrace, and embracing that it fully.
You know, it's so interesting.But because as one who grew up with
family members a variety of shades.I have aunts that are blonde haired and
(31:53):
blue eyed, and I have youknow, just and I have aunts,
aunts and uncles who were mahaga aney tone. Really, my family on
both sides have a variety of hues. The concept of having family members that
didn't look black was part of myfamily. But what's interesting to me in
(32:13):
listening to you and it's is justthis concept of passing for me and just
sort of generally speaking, has alwaysbeen characterized so negatively because the supposition is
that someone who is willing to allowthe world to see them in a way
that they know they are not itbreaks something inside of them and that they
(32:36):
are denying themselves or they are ashamedor hiding or some there's sort of a
pejorative nature. It's interesting to hearyou to talk. It's almost as if
this was a means to an end. And let me just clarify one thing.
What you're calling passing. Is itjust not identifying yourself as a black
(32:58):
person, or is it if there'ssome some sort of racial joke or some
racist behavior. Are you squashing whatmight be a real reaction? I mean,
what what is what is passing?What are you defining as passing.
I mean, I just think notletting people know that, you know that,
mind that I'm mixed raise and myfather is black, and them not
(33:19):
knowing unless I pointed out to them, right, I guess that's were you
ever in a circumstance where things aresaid that you know they wouldn't have said
if they knew you were black?Yes, exactly, yes. And what
would you do when you would findyourself in that circumstance, Depending on the
context or the you know, theperson, I would either you know,
(33:40):
out myself or I would say,oh, by the way, you know.
You may not you may not beaware of this, but but I'm
black. Just like that amazing workby Adrian piper m you know, the
calling cards piece, where she wouldwalk around with these calling cards and when
someone said, you know, infront of her, or she overheard someone
(34:02):
make aritten insensitive or a racist ora prejudice comment, she would hand them
the card and it said, thiscard says, and I have them here
on the wall as a reminder andin case I ever need to use it
here at home. You know itsays, you know, it says,
dear friend, I am black.I am sure you did not realize this
when you made laughed at agreed withthat racist remark in the past. I
(34:24):
regret any discomfort my presence is causingyou, just as I'm sure you regret
the discomfort your racism is causing me. That's like a shorthand version of the
of it. But you know,my mother would always say, it's funny
when she overheard someone say, youknow, in La Joya, in the
supermarket or at the store, atthe bakery, or at the coffee shop,
(34:46):
makes some insensitive racist comment, youknow, she would say. And
my mother was you know, herskin was light, she was light skinned,
even though she was North African Jewish. She would say, oh,
you know, I'm black, orshe would say, you know, my
husband is black. Like she wouldcome out and let people know, you
know, that they were in thepresence of someone you know, who was
(35:08):
either directly affected or impacted or youknow, by what they were saying.
And how interesting though, and itmakes all the sense in the world that
as you got older and pursued yourpassion for art, that your gift to
the world was not only the patronageof these African American artists, but this
(35:30):
collection which is now embodied in thisbeautiful book. And what's also interesting is
that, as I was saying inwhen I was growing up talking about passing,
it was always like this that anybodywho could conceive of that concept couldn't
also be proud of who they are. And you are belying that concept like
(35:51):
you were clearly proud. It wasn'tas if you were ashamed or concerned or
felt badly about your father being black, and like that was a wonderful thing.
It was not the thing that youled with. So interesting, really
interesting, and this makes me wantto fast forward immediately to your three children,
because first, first a question.You and Carmine race have had these
(36:12):
beautiful children and they they resemble you. So since can you talk a little
bit about how your family was formed? Are they all mixed race children?
I mean, how did genetics beingwhat they are and biology being what it
is, how did they come tobe? You know, the children are
you know, the children reflect geneticallyand biologically. Both are heritages, Carmine
(36:37):
and myself, and you know,obviously we wanted to have We wanted that
to be the case because so wechose surrogacy rather than adoption, and we
worked with the same surrogate, anamazing woman named Hope, who carried all
three of our children and who isnow sort of a part of our family.
(36:59):
In many ways, we see her, we stay in touch with her,
and you know, she helped usrealize our dream of having a family.
Each of the children, in theirown different ways, reflect biologically,
genetically, emotionally, psychologically myself andCarmine, and we love that. I
(37:23):
think that's very important, and Ithink very much so much of what I
do in the art world is sharingand educating. You know what you can
do with a collection on the educationfront, and I do that in many
different ways by opening, for instance, we open our home to organizations,
We invite artists here. We sharethe collection through the grace of the young
(37:50):
gifted and black traveling tour. Weshare the collection these young gifted and black
artists with young people at college campuses, at college museums and university galleries around
the country. That's been a wonderfulgift. And I also know that the
children are learning about their own heritagethrough the collection, through these young gifted
and black artists who grace the wallsof their bedrooms and who come over for
(38:14):
dinner and whom they get to meetwhen Carmen and I go to the studio,
museum, gala or another event.So we you know, the children
are learning about their heritage, youknow, in the absence of you know,
my both of my parents passed awaybefore our children were born, which
is unfortunate, but it's a wayfor me too. I've thought a lot
(38:38):
about ways of helping them understand theirheritage through, you know, through the
art collection. In many ways,you know, the collection grew out of
conversations with my father, you know, to quote the book I think by
Tenajase Coats, you know, conversationswith my father that I was having towards
(39:00):
the end of his life about beingblack, about his youth, about the
telescope. I think the children havethe benefit of this. They have a
heritage on their walls, and it'sa great way to talk in the absence
of living, breathing grandparents. Theyhave other relatives of course, and my
uncles and my father's extended family,which is wonderful. But they two have
(39:22):
the opportunity to let their friends knowthat even though they may not look that
all their heritage does not necessarily comethrough in the way they look that.
I think that, you know,they have the opportunity to know and to
share and to internalize, so thatone day they may externalize their roots,
(39:43):
you know, in a way anda time and a place that feels right
to them, and that they willalways carry that with them and know that
well, that that is amazing.I have to end. I'm going to
wrap it up here, and Iwill do so with quoting you do you
In an interview with art Book,you summed up so beautifully what you are
(40:06):
saying now, and you said,I've been talking about the importance of your
children living with the art on yourwalls, and you said, I realized
that the art collection could be away for me to continue learning about the
issues that mattered most to me.My hope is that my own children,
Lucy, Felix and Zachary can participatein this educational process as well, because
(40:29):
by living with the work of theseartists, they too will better understand their
roots. So I love that comment, particularly as it so beautifully sums up
what you've been talking about. Butit also again, you're singing my song,
because I so truly believe parents ofchildren of color have an opportunity to
enrich their children's lives so tremendously byexposing them to art, all different kinds
(40:51):
of art, but especially art ofAfrican American artists. Your evidence with that
beautiful work from Adrian Piper, somany, so much thinking goes into so
much of the artwork, and itcan inspire such global to very personal conversations
that are otherwise not easily had betweenparent and child. So, Bernard,
(41:12):
I'm very happy that this your veryspecial and unique set of life experiences have
brought you to where to now withthis book and with this mission. Certainly
it's been beneficial to you, butthanks to you, it's also will be
beneficial to parents everywhere. So thatis amazing. I hope, so,
(41:37):
I hope, so, Carol,I appreciate the opportunity to share these ideas
and to share this time with you, and I hope it will be a
continuation of our dialogue on these topics. Absolutely, there's so much more to
talk about, but I'm going towrap it up here. Thank you once
again for joining me, and askyou to play the GCP Lightning Round so
(42:00):
for four quick questions, and theyare, first of all, the favorite
poem or saying yeah it takes avillage. Yeah, it takes a village
to be a parent. It takesa village to be a patron, absolutely
perfectly. And tell me your favoritetwo children's books, either from reaching back
(42:22):
to some that you remember growing upor some that you love to read with
your children. I loved so growingup. You know Huckleberry Finn, which
is a landmark work of American literature, and a story of a story of
mixed a mixed race story in thesense of Huckleberry Finn and Jim's friendship and
(42:45):
relationship, which I found endlessly fascinatingand I loved. There was a quote
from that book which I remember citingon an essay I wrote in seventh grade
or eighth grade, which my teacherloved. And it was a quote where
huck Finn talks about, you know, the difference between a kid and an
(43:07):
adult, or or the narrator talksabout this, and he said that,
you know, adults, you know, adults and children tell lies, but
children don't lie to themselves. Andsomehow that stayed with me. You know,
children lie, of course and getin trouble for it, as do
adults. But what makes children differentis that they don't know yet or they
(43:30):
haven't learned yet to lie to themselves. And the other book that I love,
you know, for the kids,there's many books that I love to
read. To read them is thisbook called Guess how Much I Love You?
And it's just about it's a bookthat shows it's about just how far
(43:52):
a parent will go for their child. That the that the endless, The
love of a parent to it childis endless. And then the last page
is sort of you know, Ilove you right up to the moon,
he said, and closed his eyes. Oh that's far, said big nut
brown hair. That is very,very far. He leaned over and kissed
(44:16):
him good night. Then he laydown close by and with sword with a
smile, I love you right upto the moon and back. That's a
beautiful book. Yeah, love islove is infinite. And I think the
best way to experience that is beinga parent. What would you do over
I mean, any dad moments you'relike, shoot, I know how to
(44:37):
do that better? And then theopposite, tell me an instance where you
just nailed it, nailed it asa dad. I'm sure there are many,
you know, I would say,first of all, being a parent
every day it's like free therapy.It's like therapy twenty four. No one
(44:58):
told me as a parent that youknow, you would actually end up working
on yourself more and hopefully improving yourself. I mean, the whole idea is
that you're improving this child, you'reraising a child, you're helping them understand
themselves. But what actually happens alongthe way, if you're if you're aware,
and if you embrace it, isthat you actually learn a lot about
yourself. And I would just useone the same moment to describe to answer
(45:22):
I think both of your questions,which is, you know our youngest is
at an age where temper tantrums happen, and the other day and I could
give many examples of this, Sothis is these are not a moment that
happened and then won't happen again.These are moments that happen all the time.
(45:43):
The other day, he was wantingto be carried rather than walking,
even though you know he's at anage where he can walk on his own,
but he was wanting to be carried. And you know, I was
tired, or I was in themode of the parent mode of okay,
And this is a time when thechild has to learn to do what he's
supposed to do rather than what hewants, you know, which is important
(46:06):
to teach your children that. Butyou know, he was, he was
I you know, so I said, I said, you know, no,
you have to walk, and youknow, my retribution for that,
or my payback for that, wasa big temper tantrum. And you know,
I realized that I would rather.I realized that I you know,
(46:30):
I said, no, you haveto walk or or we're not going to
go. You know, you haveto walk, there's no choice. And
the next and that results in thetemper tantrum. The next day he the
same thing happened, and this timeI said, okay, I understand you
(46:51):
want to be carried. How aboutthis? How about I carry you to
the store. But then we walkhome from the store and thought about it
and he said okay. So theprevious day I felt like, you know,
a parent maybe who didn't do theright thing, Because when your child
shows throws a temper tantrum, it'seasy to feel like, Okay, what
(47:12):
did I do wrong? You know, or anybody witnessing the temper tantrum would
be like, wow, what didthat parent do? And I also felt
like I wasn't being my best inthat moment. I felt like, what
could I do differently? What couldI do better? You know? And
sure enough, with parenting you'll getanother chance the next day or the next
hour. The fine art of successfulnegotiating. But you're also teaching that sometimes
(47:42):
you don't get what you want,so you have to think about different ways
just get some of what you want. I mean, that's a valuable lesson
for everybody, for parents and forchildren. So Bernard, yeah, unsurprisingly,
those were great answers, and again, I thank you so much for
being with us today. I knowthat parents listen everywhere listening really appreciate your
(48:05):
thoughtfulness, your experience, and yourstories, your advice. Thanks so much,
Thank you, Carol, thank youagain for having me on the show.
I hope everyone listening enjoyed this conversationthat you'll come back for more.
Please subscribe, rate and review whereyou find your podcasts, and tell your
friends. For more parenting info andadvice, please check out the Ground Control
(48:25):
Parenting website at wwwgroundcontrolparenting dot com.You can also find us on Facebook and
Instagram at ground Control Parenting and onLinkedIn under Carol Sutton Lewis. Until the
next time, take care and thanksfor listening.
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