April 12, 2023 • 53 mins
How can we help our children develop a moral compass to guide them through life? In this insightful episode from the archives, minister, professor, and former President of Morehouse College Dr. Robert M. Franklin, Jr. explains the importance of helping children think about faith and morality and offers a framework for starting these discussions at an early age. Dr. Franklin shares his own personal stories and memories of witnessing the courage and leadership his grandmother so naturally embodied. He guides Carol through the stages of faith development which parents can follow to help children find meaning and purpose in their lives. Robert also candidly speaks about the challenges and opportunities he faced while helping young men at Morehouse College center their moral compasses in a changing world. Follow us: @GroundControlParenting and groundcontrolparenting.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Ground Control Parenting, a blog and
now a podcast creative of parents raising black and brown children.
I'm the creator and your host, Carol Sutton Lewis. In
this podcast series, I talk with some really interesting people
about the job and the joy of parenting. This week,
I'm bringing back a great guest from the archives, doctor
Robert M. Franklin's junior who joins me to talk about
(00:27):
how we can help our children develop a moral compass
to guide them through life. Doctor Franklin is the perfect
guest for this conversation. He's an ordained minister, theologian, and
academic administrator who's a senior adviser to the President of
Emory University, and he's the James Laney Professor in Moral
Leadership at Emory. He previously served as a tenth president
of Morehouse College. He's the author of four books, and
(00:49):
his most recent book, Moral Leadership, Integrity, Courage and Imagination,
was published in twenty twenty. He and his wife, doctor
Cheryl Gaffney Franklin, have three children. I loved being able
to talk with Robert about how we can talk with
our children about faith, how to help them understand the
difference between right and wrong, and how to help them
find the tools to use in the instances where the
(01:11):
difference between right and wrong is not crystally clear. I'm
so glad you've joined us for this insightful and important conversation.
Welcome to Grand Control Parenting, Robert, Thank you, Carol. So
good to be with you. I've been looking forward to this.
I'm a big fan of your show. Oh, thank you
so much, and so have I. I am so thrilled
that you're able to join me today to talk about
(01:33):
how to help our children develop a moral compass, how
we can best share our value with them, and so
much more. You have a wonderfully unique perspective on this subject,
being a man of the cloth, and you're the first
on our podcast, a professor of moral leadership, and as
the former president of Morehouse College, you were responsible for
shaping the values of hundreds and hundreds of young black men.
(01:56):
Plus you have three children of your own, so there's
a lot of expertise and I'm looking forward to tapping
into it. So let's get started. So when we talk
about developing a moral compass, we're talking about the question
of how do we learn right from wrong, and how
do we act accordingly. So for a lot of people,
that starts with their faith. And I understand from you
(02:17):
that your faith was grounded in your childhood. So can
you talk about where and how you grew up and
how faith played a role in your childhood. I was
part of the extraordinary migration during the nineteen forties when
African American families began to depart the southern rural areas
(02:40):
for the urban south, and then some families engaged in
a second migration. It was too part for many and
for our family, we left Mississippi and went on to Chicago.
So I was reared on the South side of Chicago.
My parents made the journey met in Chicago. The church
was an important center of their social lives. I think
(03:02):
that that's where they met. And some wonderful matchmaking happens
in the Black church. So yeah, so so some of
the mothers, the elders, the network identify these two promising
young people, got them together, and they liked each other,
loved each other, and this family emerged. So one of
(03:26):
the things that struck me though, my grandmother, who was
very active in the church and in fact was a
leader in the church. Many churches and certainly black churches
have certain offices as it were that back then, and
still today, women have really focused in certain areas of leadership.
(03:47):
I'm happy to see that those patriarchal walls of gender
segregation beginning to break down. It is still not all down,
but you know, so women are being ordained in ministry,
not always appointed to the best parishes, but still in
any case, my grandmother, who would have been an extraordinary
pastor herself, was a teacher, was a missionary of what
(04:12):
they call the Home missionary So she was the president
of the Home Missionary Board. And my mother was kind
of watching and following my mother. And consequently, because I
was so often with my mother, and my mother worked
as a church secretary and financial secretary, I was deeply
imprinted by all of that. But it was the example
(04:34):
of moral leadership that my grandmother provided, and I'll just
mentioned very quickly two dimensions of that. On one hand,
so here we are on the South side of Chicago,
a time of these extraordinary and famous street gangs in
Chicago during those days, and so I was right there
in that mix, and black families worked hard to protect
(04:58):
their their children and their families, and I watched my
grandmother one day. She had a garden next door to
the house, a small urban garden before it was in vogue.
She would grow and harvest vegetables and then prepare wonderful
fresh meals in her kitchen and then take them to
(05:19):
people who were sick and shut in as we call
it group. And so one day she heard a commotion
outside and two groups of young men were about to fight,
was right in front of her. Our house. We lived
with my grandmother initially, so we were in her house
and I looked out. I was about eight years old,
(05:41):
and I saw these guys are really about it. This
is gonna be a great fight. I hope I could
just sit here and watch this. But instead she comes
out and disrupts everything because she ran out of the
kitchen with her aprons flowing down the stairs right into
the street, and stood in between these two groups of
(06:02):
muscle bound, tough homeboys. Wow. And she looked at them
and said, you know, I've fed many of your mothers
and some of you when you were sick from that
little garden over there. And I had a kid who
got shot in Italy as he was during the World
(06:22):
War Two. He was a soldier. No mother wants to
receive that phone call that her child has been injured.
And none of no mother's going to get that call today.
You were not fighting here today. And I watched these guys.
First of all, I thought, oh, come, grandma, you're ruining
my reputation as an eight year old in the street,
you know. But I watched these guys. They looked at her,
(06:45):
looked at each other, looked back at her, looked at
each other, and they began to back away. And there
was no fight that day. And I could look down
the block. Other families were watching this, but no one
else intervened from me. Became the power of moral leadership.
One person can turn the time. One person can set
(07:05):
a tone in a community, in a neighborhood that can
make a difference and save lives. So that was the
moral leadership. The garden was a place of nurture and
growth and generosity for her. But the other thing is
that she would prepare these wonderful southern home cook meals,
and both her friends, the other missionaries and their starched
(07:28):
white garments and nurses caps, would gather before they went
down to church. They would eat together. But then my
uncles her sons also had their friends, and these were
not church going guys. In fact, they would arrive on
the front porch of our house to eat and they
(07:48):
were inebriated, and you know, and I just thought, this
is amazing. Here are these, you know, the church women,
the sanctified women, the saints with the winos at the
same table. That's our church is not that inclusive. So
I realized my grandmother was the shepherd. There's this pastor,
(08:10):
this extraordinary church. And again that imprinted me that community
has to be inclusive. It doesn't pronounce judgment. It feeds people,
It breaks bread and pours beverage and enables people to
eat and to laugh. So that was my experience, such
a wonderful story that there's so much to unpack there.
(08:31):
First of all, I have this image of your grandmother
standing in the middle of the street between these two
tough groups of tough looking guys, and it makes me,
you know, that's a courageous thing to do. And so
many people, particularly now with the proliferation of guns, would
be less inclined to get in the middle. But what
propels you to do that will propel some people to
do that is a faith base and want to I
(08:54):
want to just touch on that for a minute before
we move more into the more general origins of moral
courage and a moral compass. This will be the first
podcast in which we've ever explored faith with our parent audience,
because so, first of all, it's a fairly personal thing.
But in the black community, the Black community has always
been focused on faith. But we don't talk a lot
(09:18):
about how generations going forward talk to their children about faith.
I mean, expose them to religion, you know, it seems
and I know that there are communities in which there
are legacies of faith, and they are deep generations of
the same churches. But what with people moving around a lot,
and children leaving their parents and studying up their families elsewhere,
(09:40):
I think it's harder now for parents to sort of
have ingrained in them how they bring religion to their families,
particularly if there's not a church in the neighborhood they
want to belong to. So, so, what you're thinking about
how parents, Let's say you want to have some sort
of faith based in your family, you want to start early.
(10:01):
What do you think parents, how should they be thinking
about talking to their children about this wonderful question? Let's
think of faith as the process of learning to make meaning.
Faith is the art of meaning making in an unpredictable world.
And I think that faith provides the fondations for the
(10:25):
compass that every single person evolves and refines over time
their sense of what's right and wrong, what's good and bad,
what is praiseworthy, what is blameworthy. We learn that much
of what we learn early early on in life is
by observing others. You know, Plato, Aristotle, all great ancient
(10:49):
philosophers talked about the household as the first seminar in
moral education and moral psychologies, by watching parents, watching parents
struggle to make decisions, ats fign value to certain actions
or entities, and then kids would get a chance to
test that, well, this is what mom says is good?
(11:10):
Do I believe that now myself. That comes a little later,
but early on they are careful observers and imitators. And
I think it's important to provide young people with that
foundational sense of right and wrong, but also to expose
them to other ways of seeing things. So what I
(11:32):
didn't share in my narrative is that although my mother
and grandmother were kind of pillar members of our local congregation.
My dad was also present and also attended often, but
I think that there were some issues he had with
the particular male religious authority in charge. And we did
(11:57):
come home and often, you know, there's a little bit
concerning I'd find them sort of arguing about what was
said in a sermon, or how things were administered, or
how the money was handled. My dad was very acervic
about pointing these out discrepancies, and my mom was having
none of that. He was prepared to defend so interesting
(12:20):
approaches to how we aligne up relative to leadership, in
even to a code of of of values. But my
father would occasionally take my brother and I to the
University of Chicago's chapel, Rockefeller Chapel, where we would hear
and experience a very different approach to worship, a meaning making,
(12:43):
and we love that too. It was so interesting to
be in this Gothic cathedral with these choirs and so on,
and then we go to, you know, to mom's church
and it was kind of, as one author put, a
high voltage religion, where you know, there's those good old
Baptist Pinacostal ammy choirs and drum sets and bands, and
(13:07):
we even had business back in those day sixties. Some
of your listeners views will recognize names like Andre Crouch
and Edwin Hawkins. They were young people and they came
to our particular church, so I watched them kind of
as late teenagers, early twitteries growing up. In any case,
(13:29):
the importance of having diverse inputs and exposures so that
they get a chance to sort of figure out for
themselves how they will be in the world as meaning
making creatures. There's one important book I'll mention because some
will want to learn more about this topic. That book
(13:50):
is titled Stages of Faith by James Fowler. James Fowler
was my professor at Harvard Divinity School, and I happen
to be there during the years when he was developing
what he called his Stages of faith development. And I
commend this because it's a fascinating six or seven stages.
He would tinkerer and sometimes it was six stages, but
(14:12):
in any case, the fundamental vision was that faith is
not a noun that one possesses, I have faith or
don't have faith. Faith is a verb. Faith is the
act of interpreting and construing reality in certain ways, of
making meaning and finding purpose in life. Faith is the
(14:37):
art and act of connecting to an ultimate concern. As
one great theologian Paul Tillick put it, so that people
may not be comfortable with God language, but everyone, every
human has an ultimate concern, and we should seek to
discover what that is. Help children find the ultimate concern
(14:58):
in their lives. And as you, many of them find
that in nature. In working on climate justice becomes a
kind of quasi religion. And yet there are nature based religions,
so it has good grounding even in African traditions. But
Fowler says, we move from and I'll simplify his theories
(15:19):
from making meaning through understanding stories. The great stories, for instance,
of the Bible that you and I were probably reared on.
And you know, you hear the story of David and Goliath,
and you can never forget that story, this great story
of the exodus of an oppressed people leaving and the hardships,
(15:40):
the great story of a prodigal son, even though it's
just imparable, but you hear that story, say wow, yeah, yeah,
I know that guy, that girl. And so it's stories
that helped shape our moral compass. We observe something in
life and say, how does that fit with the story
I learned of what's valuable, what's important, what's good and bad.
(16:05):
A middle phase has to do with conformity. Tell me
the rules, tell me the dogma, tell me the doctrines,
and hence the importance of Sunday School and other For
many churches, that's their way of conveying this is what
we believe about God, Heaven, about salvation, about this and that,
(16:25):
and you go through that, and that's learning and internalizing,
and you've become a member by conforming, by internalizing those
practices and teaching teaching. Another phase is how we individual
lies or individuate, as he puts it, and it's making faith,
my faith, my voice. And that's a wonderful process and
(16:48):
it often happens in during the adolescent college years. Had
at the opportunity to observe that at more House, and
we can talk more about that, but that's where it
is exceedingly important to provide lots of kind of informed,
intellectually stimulating resources that the book that changes a person's
(17:10):
life in the way that For instance, for me, the
autobiography of Malcolm X was one of those books. Reading
you know, Richard Wright's Black Boy in any number of texts,
and often it's in literature, not in a religious text.
And then finally is the process of becoming a more
a universalizing faith. As James Fowler puts it. He says,
(17:33):
not everyone reaches that level, but that level where you
can see among the great traditions, the Big Five as
it were, of Hinduism and Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Among those that there are certain kind of unifying dimensions
are common ground and our universalizing faith, says, I can
(17:55):
see value in all of them. I should myself learn
from a drink from all five wells, as it were.
And so so that's that's in summary what Fowler offers
us in his book Stages of Faith and helps us
think about what are we doing to nurture our faith
through reading, through travel, through visit, and through friendship, developing
(18:19):
friendships with people from other traditions. Wow, that is so great. Um,
I went to back up to the one of the
earliest one because it really struck a chord the understanding
of the stories. You're right, we all know David and
Golive a prodigal son. I have to confess I always
had a little trouble with that one, that one learn
(18:42):
lessons from that one. But but yeah, the Noah's Ark.
And one of the things I struggled with when my
children were little was that no one wanted to go
to Sunday School. I mean we would, we would present
them at the door, and they really balked. They just
didn't They're from social perspective, they didn't know the people,
they just didn't want to have that as their ritual.
(19:02):
They preferred to sit with us in church, which was fine,
except that they would draw and not get that much
out of it because it really wasn't designed for their them.
So I decided to homeschool them in Sunday School. And
I should say this, I am I consider myself a
person of faith and but but I have not and
I did grow up in the church, but I would
(19:23):
not be one who you would think would normally dive
into homeschool homeschooling Sunday school. I mean, I've never aspired
to be a Sunday school teacher. But your point about
the stories, it was really important to me that my
children know some of these stories. And I couldn't figure
out where they were going to get them from. If
they didn't go to Sunday school. And it's amazing for
parents out there who feel similarly. It's amazing how many
(19:45):
resources there are to bring into your home. And the
other reason, and I'll just I have to say this,
the other reason I wanted to do this is because
I figured my kids would ultimately be in a church,
and they'd ultimately be in a black church either with
their friends. And I didn't want have the only children
that didn't know some of the rituals, something like the
didn't know the Lord's Prayer, didn't know I mean, you can't.
(20:09):
You can't raise up a child who just stands there
with their mouth clothes when everybody else is saying those things.
So it was more for me than for them. And
then then any of it. I just want to emphasize
the storytelling is really, really, really important. Yes. Can I
just commend you for the extraordinary courage it takes to
(20:32):
take on home Sunday schooling, And I want to commend
that to others. If if your kids were saying, look,
we want no part of this organized formal religious tradition.
Do it at home and you need it. You know,
you have to prepare yourself a little. But I commend you.
I love that well, you know what we would do.
(20:52):
There are lots of resources. I mean, if anybody's familiar
with the game Apples to Apples, there's actually an Apples
to Apple's Bible edition. I mean it's anop the Bible.
There's lots of Bible editions of things, so you can
play games and learn it. But also what and I
have to tribute this to my husband. My husband would
find stories in the newspaper that presented some sort of
moral dilemma, and each week we would just look at
(21:14):
a story where the right way wasn't apparent. There were
sort of different ways to decide what was right and
what was wrong, and it would be we would simplify.
It wouldn't be complicated, but we would just talk about
what would you do if you were in this situation.
I mean, aside from the actual information I wanted them
to get. This was my way, or both of our
(21:34):
ways of trying to impart our values. We were not
only saying learn these stories, but it's important to us
as a family that these stories be carried on. I
will say I also love the stage you mentioned about
when children begin to absorb the lessons and then figure
out which ones worked for them the lessons stage, and
(21:55):
that's where where they're making where they're in positions they're
a little more independent. They're in position where they're going
to have to make these kind of judgments on their own.
And I will just say about that. I'd love for
you to talk sort of more about how parents can
influence that. But the goal for me, as they were
growing up, I used to say this all the time.
I wanted there to be as they've moved away, as
they went into junior high school and high school, I
(22:17):
wanted there to be in the back of their head
this phrase my mother would kill me if, and then
a line, and then I wanted them to whatever they
were about to do. I wanted them to know my
mother would They would have that phrase my mother would
kill me if I and then this blank and then
I would say. That is not to say that you
should never do it, because I can't control for that.
(22:40):
I mean, you're going to be in circumstances where you
will still be tempted to do this. But all I
want is that phrase. At least you know if you're
about to do something that is straddling that line between
right and wrong that you stopped and made a conscious
leap in there versus just a little long into it.
That's a wonderful and easy to apply moral rule or
(23:04):
rule of foam. And I think it's brilliant what you
all did. That's it. I love that. Well, I thank you,
but it was it's still effective. I hope they are
now in their all in their twenties. I hope it
still works. I hope you're still doing that. We'll be
right back after these messages. Welcome back to the show.
So let me ask your fam of respective as as
(23:27):
a man of the cloth again, what happens if you
go through all this and your child rejects it? I
mean just rejects the faith, the religion. I imagine if
they went to another one, you can deal with that,
But how com parents who are really grounded. Let's say
you're a parent, you're really grounded in your faith and
it's not taking Yeah yeah, yeah. That really places a
(23:50):
burden on the parent, the adult to be discerning and
thoughtful about how to approach the evolving personality, the warp
and woof of this unique human being that you have
helped to produce and rear, and to learn to respect
that and treat it with a certain sacred care because
(24:12):
you haven't went through you know, you've gone through the
stage of I'm exposing them to my tradition, what I
regard and take to be valuable and deeply important, and
they've embraced much of it, but some of it they've rejected.
And so they're still on this journey. They are searching.
They are still trying to make meaning, find purpose, find
(24:37):
who they're called to be and what they're called to do.
And that's another dimension of what faith does in terms
of assigning identity and providing mission, a sense of action
in the world and not simply being a good, pure
spiritual person, but also being a moral agent. And so
(25:00):
where does that come from? And again it's exposure to
varieties of role models and examples. Parents have to be
secure enough to enable and exposure their children to other
examples of people who are doing important and interesting things.
And so that maybe through watching a film together, I
(25:21):
thought of, you know, watching Spike Lee's brilliant interpretation of
Malcolm X in the movie X or of Gandhi exposed
younger people to these personalities, and that what do you
think and how you know? Because none of them were perfect.
I love Oscar Wild's wonderful observation that every saint has
(25:44):
a past and every center has a future. And I
think it's that confidence that the people we regard as
wholly in the great Saint. They all had their challenges,
they all made mistakes, they sends as the traditional Christian
language uses that, but every center has a future, and
there is possibility for going forward with I love you
(26:06):
know your podcast language with with joy and and and
it's possible. So expose them to other examples, respect them,
give them a little space to walk alone. Remember at
some you know that there isn't everyone has an ultimate concern,
and to invite them to talk about that, rather than
(26:29):
preaching to them you've done that perhaps, But instead now
begin to ask probing questions, open ended questions, allow them
to do the talking, and you listen carefully and ask,
I wonder what they're wrestling with here? And are these
questions of identity or value? Whom can I love? Who?
(26:51):
Who shall? Who will I be as I grow up?
And what am I supposed to do in this life?
All of those questions, especially in as you pointed out,
they tend to cluster and emerge robustly during the adolescent years,
part of which are spent often in you know, traditionally
in parents' households. But then they move out and they
(27:13):
go away to school or to the military or what
have you. They're continuing to do that work. Who am I?
The identity question industry as the thinking of categories from
the great developmental psychologist Eric Ericsson. His book titled Eight
Ages a Man, but his Childhood and Society was the
(27:35):
title of the book, and he talks about the three
great eyes of the identity who am I? Industry? What
am I going to do? What will I be when
I grew up? And then third day eye of intimacy?
Who will I love? Who loves me? And that those
are kind of the almost every day the kids, our
kids are waking up with that agenda. We should keep
(27:57):
that in mind and perhaps help expose them to risk horses, books, films, poetry,
and interesting people, invite them to be engaged with. Hopefully
they're meeting those people in high school and other places. Yeah,
that's a really important point. As children explore their faith,
and you very aptly pointed out their ultimate concern is
(28:20):
not necessarily doesn't necessarily have to grow in in a
standard religious form, and particularly you find I certainly went
through it, and I'm sure a lot of people do.
You find that there's a lot of tension when children
are are and young people are trying to figure out
who they are and then looking at the very specific
(28:41):
tenets of different religions that seem to argue against them
being themselves. I mean, and so I think ultimately everybody's
got to work it out for themselves. But I think
from a parental perspective, as much as you would want
your child to follow your path, if you are very
focused on your religious your religion, your specific brand of faith,
(29:04):
and as much as you would want your child to
follow that path, and as much as you view what
your child does through the eyes of that path, it's
really important to give them their own space and absolutely
not be offended by them them challenging it. I mean,
you know, doubting Thomas was there for a reason, right,
I mean, hey, you're a biblical scholar. This is very good.
(29:27):
I'm telling you. I'll just use two simple phrases that
my help parents think about how to approach that somewhat
couldn't can be an unsettling experience to hear the kid
come home. I remember what it was like for me
to return from the first year at Morehouse. I had
just read Karl Marx and Charles Darwin and Sigmund Freud
(29:51):
that Frederick Nietzsche. I came. I was, I'm having nothing
to do with it. What do you mean, I'm not
going to church today, thank you very much, and all
that will call adolescent rebellion. But my mother was patient,
and she said, well, come and see the people. They
want to see you, just you don't have to, you know,
get into it. And I said, okay, I do want
(30:13):
to see the people, those folks who love me, so
that meant a lot. But respect the mystery. Respect the mystery.
Part of what religion has to do is as it
connects us to an ultimate concern to God or however
whatever language you're comfortable with. There is engaging the mysteries
(30:33):
in life and in the mysteries of our own personalities.
The mystery of your child's personality. You know, sometimes you
sort of you got them, you understand them, and then
they'll do or say things, where did this come from? Right?
Once again, the mystery is present in everyday life and
as mature people the adults in the room have to
(30:53):
learn to and practice the discipline of respecting the mystery.
The other phrase it comes to mind here is trusting
the spirit of just put it in those terms, and
that is that if your child is truly earnestly grappling
with making meaning, discovering herself for himself, identity, industry, intimacy
(31:16):
to all those key questions, then just trust that, trust
that process. They'll they'll get it. They'll get it right
right for them. And it's likely to be a bit eclectic,
it'll be a gumbo, it'll be borrowing from various and
sundry resources, because as you pointed out earlier, it's part
(31:36):
of becoming an individual. They're putting it together. It's like
tailored clothing if for them, they're not buying it off
the rack. And often churches and mosques and temples offer
you these pre made formula and for the good person
and the good life, and that's valuable. But some of
us are gonna just have to work it out for ourselves.
(31:59):
And I guess there's another area. I'll just name it
without getting into it. But many theologians, artists, musicians and
others that pointed out the damage done by heavy handed
authoritarian religion and applications and impositions and enforcements of religious
teachings or definitions, narrow definitions of who the good person
(32:23):
is and what the good life is. And we've heard
from all sorts of kids, our kids, LGBTQ community and
others who say, that's not me, and the tradition doesn't
allow me to become who I am. Respect the mystery,
trust the spirit. Give them space. They may have to
(32:44):
go leave your community, your home space as they are
on their search to make meaning. But in time, if
we trust, we'll find a place of meeting at a
later time. Absolutely, And as you were saying this, I
was it's so valuable to hear. But I was also
(33:05):
thinking that while this is hard for parents, what helps
you respect the mystery and what helps you trust the
process is all that you've done, by your own actions
and by your early days of imparting your values to
your children, or not even your values, but helping your
(33:25):
children understand the difference between right and wrong. I mean
some fundamentals that this is no great leaf here. We
want to raise good people I mean meaning that people
that are thoughtful and kind and to the extent that
we demonstrate these qualities and encourage our children too. I mean,
this is all basic stuff that we're doing already. So
it may sound a little scary to sort of turn
(33:47):
away from things that are really poor to your being
when your child is not accepting them, But as you
so wonderfully just said, it's really them working it out.
So so yeah, I love that respect the mystery because
it is I mean, no one who is a parent
does not understand that there is a great there is
(34:07):
a mystery. So I want to actually take us down
a slightly different path because I want to draw on
your experience at more House. And this is sort of
continuing the conversation of things changing over time, like the
way that we are not reproducing the way that our
parents introduced us to faith, and the next generation is
(34:28):
looking at things differently, And it's sort of a bigger
question of what happens if your concepts of right and
wrong have to change. I mean, if if the fluidity
I guess of right and wrong, although that's a weird concept,
you would think there's just right and wrong, But over
time there are things that seemed right but are no
longer right. And the example I'm What I'm really trying
(34:50):
to talk about is you ran more House, a predominantly black,
all male institution, which what I know about more House
men is they are strong, and they are brilliant. They
are really confident, and they are confident in their maleness,
and it's a wonderful thing. But confidence in maleness has
had to change because as our society challenges the notion
(35:13):
of male heterosexual dominance, and they're being a fairly limited
way to be a man, relatively limited, and in particular
for black men, there's there's a very specific way, and
society is beginning to challenge that. And since you were
in charge of when this is happening, how do you
shift away from sort of one way of thinking and
(35:34):
give to give the students they're the tools to become
sort of modern men. M That's a wonderful and nuanced question,
and I'll try to answer simply as I reflect on
the challenges I faced as I arrived. There was enormous
anxiety among the alumni community, but even in the larger
(35:54):
community about let's say, new innovative, competing unders standings of
manhood of mailelness just to use these binaries and I
recognize it's important to respect the mystery of gender and
to allow for multiple understandings of how we live into
(36:19):
that identity to flourish on the campus. And so but
I picked in and I don't know whether this was
the right way to go, but because there was anxiety,
I think I need to deal with the anxiety first,
the emotions, and then we'll get to the issues. What
are our definitions of manhood? And so I affirmed. I
(36:40):
tried to affirm the values that Morehouse had inculcated in
men over these generations. But then having affirmed that tradition,
that approach, that large path and familiar path, I began
to talk about and expose them to other understandings and
(37:02):
tried to do this in you know, in a subtle,
respectful way, but reminded them that, for instance, and tensions
between gay men and straight men on our campus. Reminded
the straight brothers that you know, Malcolm X had friends
like James Baldwin, Martin, Luther King's one of his best friends,
(37:27):
Bayard rustin black gay men who are also contributing to
the common good, to the common struggle, and over time,
and I made them read essays of Buyer Rustin in
his autobiography, and of course everyone's trying to read James Baldwin,
he's so brilliant. But it was an interesting dialogue that
(37:48):
began to occur, and I had fortunately terrific student leaders
and role models for a respectful dialogue and open minded dialogue,
and we saw that we were all working toward the
same ends of trying to uplift people who were oppressed.
(38:09):
So I feel, you know, there was some measure of
progress made there, and again it's trying to help them
see the alternatives, to treat them with respect, and to
recognize also though because we had sometimes where people said
this is not for us, we can't this old Morehouse
(38:30):
model of the Morehouse man is so oppressive, we can't stay,
and so we lost a few students. And you recognize
and respect the choices that people feel they need to make.
But in the larger scheme of morality, you know, there's
kind of people want everything to be black and white,
right or wrong with crystal clarity. But then there's this
(38:51):
thing called the gray area that emerges as we as
we grow and develop, and you sort of see and
you have to puzzle through, and you have to plu
I love your example of providing our kids with the
examples and from real life from the newspaper where mole
decision discernment choices have to be made, and then look
(39:13):
at how they make those decisions. And one part of
it is the tradition what you learned in your household.
My mama would kill me if I did, you know,
That's an important element. But then there's also reading other
other approaches to things that we might find in literature
as well as in books on religion and philosophy. So
(39:36):
so another aspect I appreciate. And while we're talking about
more House, schools across the United States, across the globe
have been grappling with these same issues, and particularly single
sex schools. But back to more House, there's also the
element the things have change with respect to male female
relationships in terms of respecting women and or what consent
(40:02):
in the age of consent and consent being much more
of a I will say, nuanced but critical component of
men and women getting to get imagine it's any gender
is getting together. But I'm just thinking about how on
college campus is everywhere trying to re educate perhaps in
(40:23):
some instances young men or tweak the value of how
you interact with someone that you're trying to get to know.
I mean, this was something that you know with two sons,
I was very focused on. And I like what you
said about the gray area because it's very tempting. And
I will say this even now as issues arise with
accusations of mistreatment, it's a tendency to want to see
(40:45):
it in black and white. I mean, this used to
be okay behavior. Now it's absolutely bad behavior, and therefore
anything that falls into this bucket bad behavior. But there
are still grays. I mean there are Human action is
complicated and in no way, shape or form am I
condoning any kind of abusive behavior here, no period. Yes,
(41:08):
the concept of UM so I'm asking the question as
well about re examining its values. I mean, you have
this group of you have a group of men. How
do you get them to start understanding that stuff that
might have been acceptable or or or back in the
day or when they were growing up is absolutely not
(41:28):
acceptable now? Yes, and in apparent how do we convey that?
I think two words came to mind as you talked
about this, and I had interesting campus wide flora along
with my colleague the president of Spellman College at the time,
Beverly Daniel Tatum, And it was an extraordinary moment because
(41:52):
there were allegations of dating abuse and violence, sexual violence, etc.
And we said, this is not acceptable. But the two
words that come to mind are expectations that need to
be clear about expectations, what we expect from each other,
and then contracts developing, talking through what we are committed
(42:17):
to doing, what we will not do, and what's okay
for me and what's not okay to talk that through.
And I think that what I discovered many young men
generally speak not all. We're not familiar with that role
of talking it through. They had internalized a set of images,
some of them exceedingly. We would refer to that as
(42:39):
toxic masculinity today. So much of it proclaimed in some
of the music they were listening to and some of
the harsh I almost hesitate to identify a category, but
you know, I mean, we know what young people are
listening to and these you hear this on cap is.
(43:00):
I would walk to campus, I hear this in the dorm.
So there were a couple occasions where I would walk
up and knock on the door. I say, hey, brother,
I heard your music coming and you shouting out and
and this artist is talking about calling women out of
their names and best bad behavior and violence and money
and this and that. I said, um, you know, at
(43:22):
more House, we're trying to take a different approach to
some of this stuff, man, and he was, you know,
it was cheapishly looked at. Yeah, okay. I said, do
you think that that fits with what we're trying to do?
And he sort of thought it through. And I'll turn
the music down, doctor Franklin, maybe I'll play something else,
I said. And then then the old guy and me
(43:44):
came out and I'm reaching from the old school, you know,
back and back in Motown. They sang about love and
you know, holding hands and Fridge, is there an equivalent
in your in your gainst rap culture? And he looked
at me, He's like, are you kidding? But it was
that kind of process. I could have come in and
slammed them once. I had a d the students who
(44:06):
did that. It didn't turn out well, I say, don't judge.
These guys are trying to figure this out. We're all
creating our narratives and our roadmaps. And yes they're gonna sample.
Let them sample. But I like you the way you
put it earlier. But at some level we also want
to call them back to true north in their lives.
(44:26):
The compass points to north and that is where we're headed.
And some behaviors just the opposite of that. So let's
talk about expectations. Let's talk about the agreements we will
have even as we date in a relationship. How do
we create more healthy relationships? And I think if we
(44:47):
can equip our daughters and sons, all of our kids
with those scripts that need to have the script and
to help revise the script. That's what I like about
your question, because these young men were hearing. Look, we
grew up on the tough streets of you know, Harlem,
Brooklyn and Compton, and we arrived here. We know, we
(45:08):
take what we want. We articulated, but we grab, we fight.
We uh. And then I said, brother, you know there's
another way. Yes, I understand that's that's that was that
way and whatever gang member or big brother who ever
modeled that for you, Okay, respect, Now it's your turn
to write your own script. They really seem to feel
(45:29):
empowered by that. I said, you don't have to do
it that way. Was telling you. She does not like that.
She did not like to be shouted to or the profanity,
lace to come and say, is there another way? And
that's where the growth and the exciting development occurs. And
I again I had I watched this in this extraordinary
(45:49):
laboratory occur every day, and as the as the parents
and as the we have to be able to understand
that what comes out at the end is not a
one hundred percent what we would do, yes, but it
is it grounded in It made sense. Their pathway made
sense to them, and it makes sense to us. So I,
(46:12):
of course, you know, could I could continue all these conversations.
I cannot end this though without having you talk to me.
And it dovetails nicely about the five wells. I'm going
to ask you to wrap up with the five wells
because and I will just quickly say that I first
heard this when my son graduated from high school and
(46:32):
you very generously spoke to the class that was many
years ago now, and this these wells which came out
of your Morehouse came out of more House, did they not? Yes?
When I when I was first appointed president, I understood
that in the early days of my services President Media
and alumni and others would ask, well, so what is
(46:55):
it that you bring? What value do you add? What
is a Morehouse man? That was the most critical question,
and I wanted to have a thoughtful, concise, memorable response,
and over time, it took a few months, but I
developed this short list. How did I develop the list
of virtues as I referred to them. I looked at
(47:16):
five or six of the most prominent more House graduates,
the more House men who defined more House Martin Luther King,
Mayor Maynard Jackson, Julian Bond, Spike Lee and others, and
I thought, okay, what if you step back and ask
what do all of these leaders have in common. One
of the things that struck me was that they were
(47:37):
all well read. Then that's the first well. The secondly,
they were well spoken, well traveled, well dressed, and well balanced.
Those became the five wells. And I tested this with
my staff and had these wonderful team of leaders men
and women who said, yeah, I think this makes sense
(47:58):
to us. This is a way of capturing all the
fancy language and verbiage and prose of our mission statement.
You've got it there in a sentence that you can
share on an elevator and still have some time left
on the elevator ride to get a response. The great
experience was by two thousand and eight when I delivered
this speech to the incoming freshman class, and when the
(48:21):
parents heard we're trying to produce at more House renaissance
men and renaissance people with social conscience and global perspective
who were known for the five wells of being well read,
well spoken, well traveled, well dressed, and well balanced student.
The parents gave me a standing oal. You know it
(48:42):
was you know, you never get a standing ovation for
the first addressed. All of the parents are standing shouting,
and the kids, the young men is in there. We're
not so hot about this, you know, well dressed, what
do you mean exactly? But but what was interesting, Carol
is Two weeks later, my vice president of student affairs kid, hey,
(49:03):
doctor Frank, I think that I think the five wells
is catching on. Yesterday I saw a student with the
five wells on a T shirt. Now, we didn't lose
any T shirt this kid, and then he showed it
to me later in the cape. Two five wells right there,
well rid. They were proud to claim that set of
expectations of what the school. And this is my parting
(49:24):
word to the community. We need to be clearer about
our expectations what we expect even as we respect then
the mystery and trust the process and those expectations will
be internalized and may take those young people a long
way in life. Oh. Absolutely, they stayed with me for sure,
(49:45):
and I was growing when I heard them. So Yes, absolutely,
Doctor Franklin, I thank you so so so much. As
always a pleasure to talk with you. And as I said,
I could just keep going. Before we actually wrap up, though,
I going to ask you to please play the GCP
bonus round very quickly. You just tell me your favorite
(50:08):
poem that it could be of saying a quote a psalm.
You could ask that of any of my students and
they would all say the same thing. And it's a
it's a quote, a sentence from a medieval Rabbi Maimonides.
It simply says the world is equally balanced between good
and evil, and your next act will tip the scale
(50:33):
great and it's so perfect for this conversation. And finally,
two of your favorite children's books, and they can be
books you grew up with or books that you remember
reading to your kids. Yes, yes, well, the one that
immediately comes to mind is The Little Prince by Saint Exupere.
Some might argue it's not a children's book many of
(50:55):
us are exposed to that early in life. It is
such an extra ordinary story about about journey, about being lost,
about finding oneself through friendship, about sharing, about meeting strangers,
and negotiating everyday life in an unpredictable world, with a
(51:19):
sense of a center, a sense of value, and a
moral compass. So The Little Prince is something I certainly commend.
But the other I was suggesting is the New Testament
story or parable of the Prodigal Son, and what happens
when a young person reared in a loving, secure household
(51:42):
decides I have to make it on my own. They
depart and counter difficult times, and while there, while experimenting,
while trying things that they would never have tried at home,
there's that sense I remember that I am loved in
that household. I can go home. The light will be
(52:04):
on for me. And it was that recognition at his
most difficult moment, I want to go back, I want
to turn around and convert, and the possibility of reconciliation
and of re entry, of leaving that difficult place, being
lost or incarcerated, or whatever it might be, and returning
(52:26):
home to a context of love and nurture and acceptance
that makes all the difference in our lives. Oh that
was wonderful because as one who has struggled with the
prodigal son story, that description of it makes me think
a little differently about it. So again, I thank you
so much for being with us. We will all. It's
(52:50):
been a great conversation, and you know that I really
enjoy talking to you, and I'm sure parents listening really
appreciate your advice and your experiences. Thank you, Carol. I
listened to all of your shows. By the way, you
have a brilliant mind and a malifluous voice, so I
enjoy listening to you and learning from you. So thank
(53:10):
you so much. I hope everyone listening enjoyed this conversation
and that you'll come back for more. Please rate, review,
and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and tell your friends.
For more parenting info and advice, please check out the
ground Control Parenting blog at ground control parenting dot com.
You can also find us on Instagram and Facebook at
(53:32):
ground Control Parenting and on LinkedIn under Carol Sutton Lewis.
The Ground Control Parenting with Carol Sutton Lewis podcast is
a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership
with iHeartMedia. Until the next time, take care and thanks
for listening.
Hello, and welcome to Ground Control Parenting, a blog and
now a podcast creative of parents raising black and brown children.
I'm the creator and your host, Carol Sutton Lewis. In
this podcast series, I talk with some really interesting people
about the job and the joy of parenting. This week,
I'm bringing back a great guest from the archives, doctor
Robert M. Franklin's junior who joins me to talk about
(00:27):
how we can help our children develop a moral compass
to guide them through life. Doctor Franklin is the perfect
guest for this conversation. He's an ordained minister, theologian, and
academic administrator who's a senior adviser to the President of
Emory University, and he's the James Laney Professor in Moral
Leadership at Emory. He previously served as a tenth president
of Morehouse College. He's the author of four books, and
(00:49):
his most recent book, Moral Leadership, Integrity, Courage and Imagination,
was published in twenty twenty. He and his wife, doctor
Cheryl Gaffney Franklin, have three children. I loved being able
to talk with Robert about how we can talk with
our children about faith, how to help them understand the
difference between right and wrong, and how to help them
find the tools to use in the instances where the
(01:11):
difference between right and wrong is not crystally clear. I'm
so glad you've joined us for this insightful and important conversation.
Welcome to Grand Control Parenting, Robert, Thank you, Carol. So
good to be with you. I've been looking forward to this.
I'm a big fan of your show. Oh, thank you
so much, and so have I. I am so thrilled
that you're able to join me today to talk about
(01:33):
how to help our children develop a moral compass, how
we can best share our value with them, and so
much more. You have a wonderfully unique perspective on this subject,
being a man of the cloth, and you're the first
on our podcast, a professor of moral leadership, and as
the former president of Morehouse College, you were responsible for
shaping the values of hundreds and hundreds of young black men.
(01:56):
Plus you have three children of your own, so there's
a lot of expertise and I'm looking forward to tapping
into it. So let's get started. So when we talk
about developing a moral compass, we're talking about the question
of how do we learn right from wrong, and how
do we act accordingly. So for a lot of people,
that starts with their faith. And I understand from you
(02:17):
that your faith was grounded in your childhood. So can
you talk about where and how you grew up and
how faith played a role in your childhood. I was
part of the extraordinary migration during the nineteen forties when
African American families began to depart the southern rural areas
(02:40):
for the urban south, and then some families engaged in
a second migration. It was too part for many and
for our family, we left Mississippi and went on to Chicago.
So I was reared on the South side of Chicago.
My parents made the journey met in Chicago. The church
was an important center of their social lives. I think
(03:02):
that that's where they met. And some wonderful matchmaking happens
in the Black church. So yeah, so so some of
the mothers, the elders, the network identify these two promising
young people, got them together, and they liked each other,
loved each other, and this family emerged. So one of
(03:26):
the things that struck me though, my grandmother, who was
very active in the church and in fact was a
leader in the church. Many churches and certainly black churches
have certain offices as it were that back then, and
still today, women have really focused in certain areas of leadership.
(03:47):
I'm happy to see that those patriarchal walls of gender
segregation beginning to break down. It is still not all down,
but you know, so women are being ordained in ministry,
not always appointed to the best parishes, but still in
any case, my grandmother, who would have been an extraordinary
pastor herself, was a teacher, was a missionary of what
(04:12):
they call the Home missionary So she was the president
of the Home Missionary Board. And my mother was kind
of watching and following my mother. And consequently, because I
was so often with my mother, and my mother worked
as a church secretary and financial secretary, I was deeply
imprinted by all of that. But it was the example
(04:34):
of moral leadership that my grandmother provided, and I'll just
mentioned very quickly two dimensions of that. On one hand,
so here we are on the South side of Chicago,
a time of these extraordinary and famous street gangs in
Chicago during those days, and so I was right there
in that mix, and black families worked hard to protect
(04:58):
their their children and their families, and I watched my
grandmother one day. She had a garden next door to
the house, a small urban garden before it was in vogue.
She would grow and harvest vegetables and then prepare wonderful
fresh meals in her kitchen and then take them to
(05:19):
people who were sick and shut in as we call
it group. And so one day she heard a commotion
outside and two groups of young men were about to fight,
was right in front of her. Our house. We lived
with my grandmother initially, so we were in her house
and I looked out. I was about eight years old,
(05:41):
and I saw these guys are really about it. This
is gonna be a great fight. I hope I could
just sit here and watch this. But instead she comes
out and disrupts everything because she ran out of the
kitchen with her aprons flowing down the stairs right into
the street, and stood in between these two groups of
(06:02):
muscle bound, tough homeboys. Wow. And she looked at them
and said, you know, I've fed many of your mothers
and some of you when you were sick from that
little garden over there. And I had a kid who
got shot in Italy as he was during the World
(06:22):
War Two. He was a soldier. No mother wants to
receive that phone call that her child has been injured.
And none of no mother's going to get that call today.
You were not fighting here today. And I watched these guys.
First of all, I thought, oh, come, grandma, you're ruining
my reputation as an eight year old in the street,
you know. But I watched these guys. They looked at her,
(06:45):
looked at each other, looked back at her, looked at
each other, and they began to back away. And there
was no fight that day. And I could look down
the block. Other families were watching this, but no one
else intervened from me. Became the power of moral leadership.
One person can turn the time. One person can set
(07:05):
a tone in a community, in a neighborhood that can
make a difference and save lives. So that was the
moral leadership. The garden was a place of nurture and
growth and generosity for her. But the other thing is
that she would prepare these wonderful southern home cook meals,
and both her friends, the other missionaries and their starched
(07:28):
white garments and nurses caps, would gather before they went
down to church. They would eat together. But then my
uncles her sons also had their friends, and these were
not church going guys. In fact, they would arrive on
the front porch of our house to eat and they
(07:48):
were inebriated, and you know, and I just thought, this
is amazing. Here are these, you know, the church women,
the sanctified women, the saints with the winos at the
same table. That's our church is not that inclusive. So
I realized my grandmother was the shepherd. There's this pastor,
(08:10):
this extraordinary church. And again that imprinted me that community
has to be inclusive. It doesn't pronounce judgment. It feeds people,
It breaks bread and pours beverage and enables people to
eat and to laugh. So that was my experience, such
a wonderful story that there's so much to unpack there.
(08:31):
First of all, I have this image of your grandmother
standing in the middle of the street between these two
tough groups of tough looking guys, and it makes me,
you know, that's a courageous thing to do. And so
many people, particularly now with the proliferation of guns, would
be less inclined to get in the middle. But what
propels you to do that will propel some people to
do that is a faith base and want to I
(08:54):
want to just touch on that for a minute before
we move more into the more general origins of moral
courage and a moral compass. This will be the first
podcast in which we've ever explored faith with our parent audience,
because so, first of all, it's a fairly personal thing.
But in the black community, the Black community has always
been focused on faith. But we don't talk a lot
(09:18):
about how generations going forward talk to their children about faith.
I mean, expose them to religion, you know, it seems
and I know that there are communities in which there
are legacies of faith, and they are deep generations of
the same churches. But what with people moving around a lot,
and children leaving their parents and studying up their families elsewhere,
(09:40):
I think it's harder now for parents to sort of
have ingrained in them how they bring religion to their families,
particularly if there's not a church in the neighborhood they
want to belong to. So, so, what you're thinking about
how parents, Let's say you want to have some sort
of faith based in your family, you want to start early.
(10:01):
What do you think parents, how should they be thinking
about talking to their children about this wonderful question? Let's
think of faith as the process of learning to make meaning.
Faith is the art of meaning making in an unpredictable world.
And I think that faith provides the fondations for the
(10:25):
compass that every single person evolves and refines over time
their sense of what's right and wrong, what's good and bad,
what is praiseworthy, what is blameworthy. We learn that much
of what we learn early early on in life is
by observing others. You know, Plato, Aristotle, all great ancient
(10:49):
philosophers talked about the household as the first seminar in
moral education and moral psychologies, by watching parents, watching parents
struggle to make decisions, ats fign value to certain actions
or entities, and then kids would get a chance to
test that, well, this is what mom says is good?
(11:10):
Do I believe that now myself. That comes a little later,
but early on they are careful observers and imitators. And
I think it's important to provide young people with that
foundational sense of right and wrong, but also to expose
them to other ways of seeing things. So what I
(11:32):
didn't share in my narrative is that although my mother
and grandmother were kind of pillar members of our local congregation.
My dad was also present and also attended often, but
I think that there were some issues he had with
the particular male religious authority in charge. And we did
(11:57):
come home and often, you know, there's a little bit
concerning I'd find them sort of arguing about what was
said in a sermon, or how things were administered, or
how the money was handled. My dad was very acervic
about pointing these out discrepancies, and my mom was having
none of that. He was prepared to defend so interesting
(12:20):
approaches to how we aligne up relative to leadership, in
even to a code of of of values. But my
father would occasionally take my brother and I to the
University of Chicago's chapel, Rockefeller Chapel, where we would hear
and experience a very different approach to worship, a meaning making,
(12:43):
and we love that too. It was so interesting to
be in this Gothic cathedral with these choirs and so on,
and then we go to, you know, to mom's church
and it was kind of, as one author put, a
high voltage religion, where you know, there's those good old
Baptist Pinacostal ammy choirs and drum sets and bands, and
(13:07):
we even had business back in those day sixties. Some
of your listeners views will recognize names like Andre Crouch
and Edwin Hawkins. They were young people and they came
to our particular church, so I watched them kind of
as late teenagers, early twitteries growing up. In any case,
(13:29):
the importance of having diverse inputs and exposures so that
they get a chance to sort of figure out for
themselves how they will be in the world as meaning
making creatures. There's one important book I'll mention because some
will want to learn more about this topic. That book
(13:50):
is titled Stages of Faith by James Fowler. James Fowler
was my professor at Harvard Divinity School, and I happen
to be there during the years when he was developing
what he called his Stages of faith development. And I
commend this because it's a fascinating six or seven stages.
He would tinkerer and sometimes it was six stages, but
(14:12):
in any case, the fundamental vision was that faith is
not a noun that one possesses, I have faith or
don't have faith. Faith is a verb. Faith is the
act of interpreting and construing reality in certain ways, of
making meaning and finding purpose in life. Faith is the
(14:37):
art and act of connecting to an ultimate concern. As
one great theologian Paul Tillick put it, so that people
may not be comfortable with God language, but everyone, every
human has an ultimate concern, and we should seek to
discover what that is. Help children find the ultimate concern
(14:58):
in their lives. And as you, many of them find
that in nature. In working on climate justice becomes a
kind of quasi religion. And yet there are nature based religions,
so it has good grounding even in African traditions. But
Fowler says, we move from and I'll simplify his theories
(15:19):
from making meaning through understanding stories. The great stories, for instance,
of the Bible that you and I were probably reared on.
And you know, you hear the story of David and Goliath,
and you can never forget that story, this great story
of the exodus of an oppressed people leaving and the hardships,
(15:40):
the great story of a prodigal son, even though it's
just imparable, but you hear that story, say wow, yeah, yeah,
I know that guy, that girl. And so it's stories
that helped shape our moral compass. We observe something in
life and say, how does that fit with the story
I learned of what's valuable, what's important, what's good and bad.
(16:05):
A middle phase has to do with conformity. Tell me
the rules, tell me the dogma, tell me the doctrines,
and hence the importance of Sunday School and other For
many churches, that's their way of conveying this is what
we believe about God, Heaven, about salvation, about this and that,
(16:25):
and you go through that, and that's learning and internalizing,
and you've become a member by conforming, by internalizing those
practices and teaching teaching. Another phase is how we individual
lies or individuate, as he puts it, and it's making faith,
my faith, my voice. And that's a wonderful process and
(16:48):
it often happens in during the adolescent college years. Had
at the opportunity to observe that at more House, and
we can talk more about that, but that's where it
is exceedingly important to provide lots of kind of informed,
intellectually stimulating resources that the book that changes a person's
(17:10):
life in the way that For instance, for me, the
autobiography of Malcolm X was one of those books. Reading
you know, Richard Wright's Black Boy in any number of texts,
and often it's in literature, not in a religious text.
And then finally is the process of becoming a more
a universalizing faith. As James Fowler puts it. He says,
(17:33):
not everyone reaches that level, but that level where you
can see among the great traditions, the Big Five as
it were, of Hinduism and Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Among those that there are certain kind of unifying dimensions
are common ground and our universalizing faith, says, I can
(17:55):
see value in all of them. I should myself learn
from a drink from all five wells, as it were.
And so so that's that's in summary what Fowler offers
us in his book Stages of Faith and helps us
think about what are we doing to nurture our faith
through reading, through travel, through visit, and through friendship, developing
(18:19):
friendships with people from other traditions. Wow, that is so great. Um,
I went to back up to the one of the
earliest one because it really struck a chord the understanding
of the stories. You're right, we all know David and
Golive a prodigal son. I have to confess I always
had a little trouble with that one, that one learn
(18:42):
lessons from that one. But but yeah, the Noah's Ark.
And one of the things I struggled with when my
children were little was that no one wanted to go
to Sunday School. I mean we would, we would present
them at the door, and they really balked. They just
didn't They're from social perspective, they didn't know the people,
they just didn't want to have that as their ritual.
(19:02):
They preferred to sit with us in church, which was fine,
except that they would draw and not get that much
out of it because it really wasn't designed for their them.
So I decided to homeschool them in Sunday School. And
I should say this, I am I consider myself a
person of faith and but but I have not and
I did grow up in the church, but I would
(19:23):
not be one who you would think would normally dive
into homeschool homeschooling Sunday school. I mean, I've never aspired
to be a Sunday school teacher. But your point about
the stories, it was really important to me that my
children know some of these stories. And I couldn't figure
out where they were going to get them from. If
they didn't go to Sunday school. And it's amazing for
parents out there who feel similarly. It's amazing how many
(19:45):
resources there are to bring into your home. And the
other reason, and I'll just I have to say this,
the other reason I wanted to do this is because
I figured my kids would ultimately be in a church,
and they'd ultimately be in a black church either with
their friends. And I didn't want have the only children
that didn't know some of the rituals, something like the
didn't know the Lord's Prayer, didn't know I mean, you can't.
(20:09):
You can't raise up a child who just stands there
with their mouth clothes when everybody else is saying those things.
So it was more for me than for them. And
then then any of it. I just want to emphasize
the storytelling is really, really, really important. Yes. Can I
just commend you for the extraordinary courage it takes to
(20:32):
take on home Sunday schooling, And I want to commend
that to others. If if your kids were saying, look,
we want no part of this organized formal religious tradition.
Do it at home and you need it. You know,
you have to prepare yourself a little. But I commend you.
I love that well, you know what we would do.
(20:52):
There are lots of resources. I mean, if anybody's familiar
with the game Apples to Apples, there's actually an Apples
to Apple's Bible edition. I mean it's anop the Bible.
There's lots of Bible editions of things, so you can
play games and learn it. But also what and I
have to tribute this to my husband. My husband would
find stories in the newspaper that presented some sort of
moral dilemma, and each week we would just look at
(21:14):
a story where the right way wasn't apparent. There were
sort of different ways to decide what was right and
what was wrong, and it would be we would simplify.
It wouldn't be complicated, but we would just talk about
what would you do if you were in this situation.
I mean, aside from the actual information I wanted them
to get. This was my way, or both of our
(21:34):
ways of trying to impart our values. We were not
only saying learn these stories, but it's important to us
as a family that these stories be carried on. I
will say I also love the stage you mentioned about
when children begin to absorb the lessons and then figure
out which ones worked for them the lessons stage, and
(21:55):
that's where where they're making where they're in positions they're
a little more independent. They're in position where they're going
to have to make these kind of judgments on their own.
And I will just say about that. I'd love for
you to talk sort of more about how parents can
influence that. But the goal for me, as they were
growing up, I used to say this all the time.
I wanted there to be as they've moved away, as
they went into junior high school and high school, I
(22:17):
wanted there to be in the back of their head
this phrase my mother would kill me if, and then
a line, and then I wanted them to whatever they
were about to do. I wanted them to know my
mother would They would have that phrase my mother would
kill me if I and then this blank and then
I would say. That is not to say that you
should never do it, because I can't control for that.
(22:40):
I mean, you're going to be in circumstances where you
will still be tempted to do this. But all I
want is that phrase. At least you know if you're
about to do something that is straddling that line between
right and wrong that you stopped and made a conscious
leap in there versus just a little long into it.
That's a wonderful and easy to apply moral rule or
(23:04):
rule of foam. And I think it's brilliant what you
all did. That's it. I love that. Well, I thank you,
but it was it's still effective. I hope they are
now in their all in their twenties. I hope it
still works. I hope you're still doing that. We'll be
right back after these messages. Welcome back to the show.
So let me ask your fam of respective as as
(23:27):
a man of the cloth again, what happens if you
go through all this and your child rejects it? I
mean just rejects the faith, the religion. I imagine if
they went to another one, you can deal with that,
But how com parents who are really grounded. Let's say
you're a parent, you're really grounded in your faith and
it's not taking Yeah yeah, yeah. That really places a
(23:50):
burden on the parent, the adult to be discerning and
thoughtful about how to approach the evolving personality, the warp
and woof of this unique human being that you have
helped to produce and rear, and to learn to respect
that and treat it with a certain sacred care because
(24:12):
you haven't went through you know, you've gone through the
stage of I'm exposing them to my tradition, what I
regard and take to be valuable and deeply important, and
they've embraced much of it, but some of it they've rejected.
And so they're still on this journey. They are searching.
They are still trying to make meaning, find purpose, find
(24:37):
who they're called to be and what they're called to do.
And that's another dimension of what faith does in terms
of assigning identity and providing mission, a sense of action
in the world and not simply being a good, pure
spiritual person, but also being a moral agent. And so
(25:00):
where does that come from? And again it's exposure to
varieties of role models and examples. Parents have to be
secure enough to enable and exposure their children to other
examples of people who are doing important and interesting things.
And so that maybe through watching a film together, I
(25:21):
thought of, you know, watching Spike Lee's brilliant interpretation of
Malcolm X in the movie X or of Gandhi exposed
younger people to these personalities, and that what do you
think and how you know? Because none of them were perfect.
I love Oscar Wild's wonderful observation that every saint has
(25:44):
a past and every center has a future. And I
think it's that confidence that the people we regard as
wholly in the great Saint. They all had their challenges,
they all made mistakes, they sends as the traditional Christian
language uses that, but every center has a future, and
there is possibility for going forward with I love you
(26:06):
know your podcast language with with joy and and and
it's possible. So expose them to other examples, respect them,
give them a little space to walk alone. Remember at
some you know that there isn't everyone has an ultimate concern,
and to invite them to talk about that, rather than
(26:29):
preaching to them you've done that perhaps, But instead now
begin to ask probing questions, open ended questions, allow them
to do the talking, and you listen carefully and ask,
I wonder what they're wrestling with here? And are these
questions of identity or value? Whom can I love? Who?
(26:51):
Who shall? Who will I be as I grow up?
And what am I supposed to do in this life?
All of those questions, especially in as you pointed out,
they tend to cluster and emerge robustly during the adolescent years,
part of which are spent often in you know, traditionally
in parents' households. But then they move out and they
(27:13):
go away to school or to the military or what
have you. They're continuing to do that work. Who am I?
The identity question industry as the thinking of categories from
the great developmental psychologist Eric Ericsson. His book titled Eight
Ages a Man, but his Childhood and Society was the
(27:35):
title of the book, and he talks about the three
great eyes of the identity who am I? Industry? What
am I going to do? What will I be when
I grew up? And then third day eye of intimacy?
Who will I love? Who loves me? And that those
are kind of the almost every day the kids, our
kids are waking up with that agenda. We should keep
(27:57):
that in mind and perhaps help expose them to risk horses, books, films, poetry,
and interesting people, invite them to be engaged with. Hopefully
they're meeting those people in high school and other places. Yeah,
that's a really important point. As children explore their faith,
and you very aptly pointed out their ultimate concern is
(28:20):
not necessarily doesn't necessarily have to grow in in a
standard religious form, and particularly you find I certainly went
through it, and I'm sure a lot of people do.
You find that there's a lot of tension when children
are are and young people are trying to figure out
who they are and then looking at the very specific
(28:41):
tenets of different religions that seem to argue against them
being themselves. I mean, and so I think ultimately everybody's
got to work it out for themselves. But I think
from a parental perspective, as much as you would want
your child to follow your path, if you are very
focused on your religious your religion, your specific brand of faith,
(29:04):
and as much as you would want your child to
follow that path, and as much as you view what
your child does through the eyes of that path, it's
really important to give them their own space and absolutely
not be offended by them them challenging it. I mean,
you know, doubting Thomas was there for a reason, right,
I mean, hey, you're a biblical scholar. This is very good.
(29:27):
I'm telling you. I'll just use two simple phrases that
my help parents think about how to approach that somewhat
couldn't can be an unsettling experience to hear the kid
come home. I remember what it was like for me
to return from the first year at Morehouse. I had
just read Karl Marx and Charles Darwin and Sigmund Freud
(29:51):
that Frederick Nietzsche. I came. I was, I'm having nothing
to do with it. What do you mean, I'm not
going to church today, thank you very much, and all
that will call adolescent rebellion. But my mother was patient,
and she said, well, come and see the people. They
want to see you, just you don't have to, you know,
get into it. And I said, okay, I do want
(30:13):
to see the people, those folks who love me, so
that meant a lot. But respect the mystery. Respect the mystery.
Part of what religion has to do is as it
connects us to an ultimate concern to God or however
whatever language you're comfortable with. There is engaging the mysteries
(30:33):
in life and in the mysteries of our own personalities.
The mystery of your child's personality. You know, sometimes you
sort of you got them, you understand them, and then
they'll do or say things, where did this come from? Right?
Once again, the mystery is present in everyday life and
as mature people the adults in the room have to
(30:53):
learn to and practice the discipline of respecting the mystery.
The other phrase it comes to mind here is trusting
the spirit of just put it in those terms, and
that is that if your child is truly earnestly grappling
with making meaning, discovering herself for himself, identity, industry, intimacy
(31:16):
to all those key questions, then just trust that, trust
that process. They'll they'll get it. They'll get it right
right for them. And it's likely to be a bit eclectic,
it'll be a gumbo, it'll be borrowing from various and
sundry resources, because as you pointed out earlier, it's part
(31:36):
of becoming an individual. They're putting it together. It's like
tailored clothing if for them, they're not buying it off
the rack. And often churches and mosques and temples offer
you these pre made formula and for the good person
and the good life, and that's valuable. But some of
us are gonna just have to work it out for ourselves.
(31:59):
And I guess there's another area. I'll just name it
without getting into it. But many theologians, artists, musicians and
others that pointed out the damage done by heavy handed
authoritarian religion and applications and impositions and enforcements of religious
teachings or definitions, narrow definitions of who the good person
(32:23):
is and what the good life is. And we've heard
from all sorts of kids, our kids, LGBTQ community and
others who say, that's not me, and the tradition doesn't
allow me to become who I am. Respect the mystery,
trust the spirit. Give them space. They may have to
(32:44):
go leave your community, your home space as they are
on their search to make meaning. But in time, if
we trust, we'll find a place of meeting at a
later time. Absolutely, And as you were saying this, I
was it's so valuable to hear. But I was also
(33:05):
thinking that while this is hard for parents, what helps
you respect the mystery and what helps you trust the
process is all that you've done, by your own actions
and by your early days of imparting your values to
your children, or not even your values, but helping your
(33:25):
children understand the difference between right and wrong. I mean
some fundamentals that this is no great leaf here. We
want to raise good people I mean meaning that people
that are thoughtful and kind and to the extent that
we demonstrate these qualities and encourage our children too. I mean,
this is all basic stuff that we're doing already. So
it may sound a little scary to sort of turn
(33:47):
away from things that are really poor to your being
when your child is not accepting them, But as you
so wonderfully just said, it's really them working it out.
So so yeah, I love that respect the mystery because
it is I mean, no one who is a parent
does not understand that there is a great there is
(34:07):
a mystery. So I want to actually take us down
a slightly different path because I want to draw on
your experience at more House. And this is sort of
continuing the conversation of things changing over time, like the
way that we are not reproducing the way that our
parents introduced us to faith, and the next generation is
(34:28):
looking at things differently, And it's sort of a bigger
question of what happens if your concepts of right and
wrong have to change. I mean, if if the fluidity
I guess of right and wrong, although that's a weird concept,
you would think there's just right and wrong, But over
time there are things that seemed right but are no
longer right. And the example I'm What I'm really trying
(34:50):
to talk about is you ran more House, a predominantly black,
all male institution, which what I know about more House
men is they are strong, and they are brilliant. They
are really confident, and they are confident in their maleness,
and it's a wonderful thing. But confidence in maleness has
had to change because as our society challenges the notion
(35:13):
of male heterosexual dominance, and they're being a fairly limited
way to be a man, relatively limited, and in particular
for black men, there's there's a very specific way, and
society is beginning to challenge that. And since you were
in charge of when this is happening, how do you
shift away from sort of one way of thinking and
(35:34):
give to give the students they're the tools to become
sort of modern men. M That's a wonderful and nuanced question,
and I'll try to answer simply as I reflect on
the challenges I faced as I arrived. There was enormous
anxiety among the alumni community, but even in the larger
(35:54):
community about let's say, new innovative, competing unders standings of
manhood of mailelness just to use these binaries and I
recognize it's important to respect the mystery of gender and
to allow for multiple understandings of how we live into
(36:19):
that identity to flourish on the campus. And so but
I picked in and I don't know whether this was
the right way to go, but because there was anxiety,
I think I need to deal with the anxiety first,
the emotions, and then we'll get to the issues. What
are our definitions of manhood? And so I affirmed. I
(36:40):
tried to affirm the values that Morehouse had inculcated in
men over these generations. But then having affirmed that tradition,
that approach, that large path and familiar path, I began
to talk about and expose them to other understandings and
(37:02):
tried to do this in you know, in a subtle,
respectful way, but reminded them that, for instance, and tensions
between gay men and straight men on our campus. Reminded
the straight brothers that you know, Malcolm X had friends
like James Baldwin, Martin, Luther King's one of his best friends,
(37:27):
Bayard rustin black gay men who are also contributing to
the common good, to the common struggle, and over time,
and I made them read essays of Buyer Rustin in
his autobiography, and of course everyone's trying to read James Baldwin,
he's so brilliant. But it was an interesting dialogue that
(37:48):
began to occur, and I had fortunately terrific student leaders
and role models for a respectful dialogue and open minded dialogue,
and we saw that we were all working toward the
same ends of trying to uplift people who were oppressed.
(38:09):
So I feel, you know, there was some measure of
progress made there, and again it's trying to help them
see the alternatives, to treat them with respect, and to
recognize also though because we had sometimes where people said
this is not for us, we can't this old Morehouse
(38:30):
model of the Morehouse man is so oppressive, we can't stay,
and so we lost a few students. And you recognize
and respect the choices that people feel they need to make.
But in the larger scheme of morality, you know, there's
kind of people want everything to be black and white,
right or wrong with crystal clarity. But then there's this
(38:51):
thing called the gray area that emerges as we as
we grow and develop, and you sort of see and
you have to puzzle through, and you have to plu
I love your example of providing our kids with the
examples and from real life from the newspaper where mole
decision discernment choices have to be made, and then look
(39:13):
at how they make those decisions. And one part of
it is the tradition what you learned in your household.
My mama would kill me if I did, you know,
That's an important element. But then there's also reading other
other approaches to things that we might find in literature
as well as in books on religion and philosophy. So
(39:36):
so another aspect I appreciate. And while we're talking about
more House, schools across the United States, across the globe
have been grappling with these same issues, and particularly single
sex schools. But back to more House, there's also the
element the things have change with respect to male female
relationships in terms of respecting women and or what consent
(40:02):
in the age of consent and consent being much more
of a I will say, nuanced but critical component of
men and women getting to get imagine it's any gender
is getting together. But I'm just thinking about how on
college campus is everywhere trying to re educate perhaps in
(40:23):
some instances young men or tweak the value of how
you interact with someone that you're trying to get to know.
I mean, this was something that you know with two sons,
I was very focused on. And I like what you
said about the gray area because it's very tempting. And
I will say this even now as issues arise with
accusations of mistreatment, it's a tendency to want to see
(40:45):
it in black and white. I mean, this used to
be okay behavior. Now it's absolutely bad behavior, and therefore
anything that falls into this bucket bad behavior. But there
are still grays. I mean there are Human action is
complicated and in no way, shape or form am I
condoning any kind of abusive behavior here, no period. Yes,
(41:08):
the concept of UM so I'm asking the question as
well about re examining its values. I mean, you have
this group of you have a group of men. How
do you get them to start understanding that stuff that
might have been acceptable or or or back in the
day or when they were growing up is absolutely not
(41:28):
acceptable now? Yes, and in apparent how do we convey that?
I think two words came to mind as you talked
about this, and I had interesting campus wide flora along
with my colleague the president of Spellman College at the time,
Beverly Daniel Tatum, And it was an extraordinary moment because
(41:52):
there were allegations of dating abuse and violence, sexual violence, etc.
And we said, this is not acceptable. But the two
words that come to mind are expectations that need to
be clear about expectations, what we expect from each other,
and then contracts developing, talking through what we are committed
(42:17):
to doing, what we will not do, and what's okay
for me and what's not okay to talk that through.
And I think that what I discovered many young men
generally speak not all. We're not familiar with that role
of talking it through. They had internalized a set of images,
some of them exceedingly. We would refer to that as
(42:39):
toxic masculinity today. So much of it proclaimed in some
of the music they were listening to and some of
the harsh I almost hesitate to identify a category, but
you know, I mean, we know what young people are
listening to and these you hear this on cap is.
(43:00):
I would walk to campus, I hear this in the dorm.
So there were a couple occasions where I would walk
up and knock on the door. I say, hey, brother,
I heard your music coming and you shouting out and
and this artist is talking about calling women out of
their names and best bad behavior and violence and money
and this and that. I said, um, you know, at
(43:22):
more House, we're trying to take a different approach to
some of this stuff, man, and he was, you know,
it was cheapishly looked at. Yeah, okay. I said, do
you think that that fits with what we're trying to do?
And he sort of thought it through. And I'll turn
the music down, doctor Franklin, maybe I'll play something else,
I said. And then then the old guy and me
(43:44):
came out and I'm reaching from the old school, you know,
back and back in Motown. They sang about love and
you know, holding hands and Fridge, is there an equivalent
in your in your gainst rap culture? And he looked
at me, He's like, are you kidding? But it was
that kind of process. I could have come in and
slammed them once. I had a d the students who
(44:06):
did that. It didn't turn out well, I say, don't judge.
These guys are trying to figure this out. We're all
creating our narratives and our roadmaps. And yes they're gonna sample.
Let them sample. But I like you the way you
put it earlier. But at some level we also want
to call them back to true north in their lives.
(44:26):
The compass points to north and that is where we're headed.
And some behaviors just the opposite of that. So let's
talk about expectations. Let's talk about the agreements we will
have even as we date in a relationship. How do
we create more healthy relationships? And I think if we
(44:47):
can equip our daughters and sons, all of our kids
with those scripts that need to have the script and
to help revise the script. That's what I like about
your question, because these young men were hearing. Look, we
grew up on the tough streets of you know, Harlem,
Brooklyn and Compton, and we arrived here. We know, we
(45:08):
take what we want. We articulated, but we grab, we fight.
We uh. And then I said, brother, you know there's
another way. Yes, I understand that's that's that was that
way and whatever gang member or big brother who ever
modeled that for you, Okay, respect, Now it's your turn
to write your own script. They really seem to feel
(45:29):
empowered by that. I said, you don't have to do
it that way. Was telling you. She does not like that.
She did not like to be shouted to or the profanity,
lace to come and say, is there another way? And
that's where the growth and the exciting development occurs. And
I again I had I watched this in this extraordinary
(45:49):
laboratory occur every day, and as the as the parents
and as the we have to be able to understand
that what comes out at the end is not a
one hundred percent what we would do, yes, but it
is it grounded in It made sense. Their pathway made
sense to them, and it makes sense to us. So I,
(46:12):
of course, you know, could I could continue all these conversations.
I cannot end this though without having you talk to me.
And it dovetails nicely about the five wells. I'm going
to ask you to wrap up with the five wells
because and I will just quickly say that I first
heard this when my son graduated from high school and
(46:32):
you very generously spoke to the class that was many
years ago now, and this these wells which came out
of your Morehouse came out of more House, did they not? Yes?
When I when I was first appointed president, I understood
that in the early days of my services President Media
and alumni and others would ask, well, so what is
(46:55):
it that you bring? What value do you add? What
is a Morehouse man? That was the most critical question,
and I wanted to have a thoughtful, concise, memorable response,
and over time, it took a few months, but I
developed this short list. How did I develop the list
of virtues as I referred to them. I looked at
(47:16):
five or six of the most prominent more House graduates,
the more House men who defined more House Martin Luther King,
Mayor Maynard Jackson, Julian Bond, Spike Lee and others, and
I thought, okay, what if you step back and ask
what do all of these leaders have in common. One
of the things that struck me was that they were
(47:37):
all well read. Then that's the first well. The secondly,
they were well spoken, well traveled, well dressed, and well balanced.
Those became the five wells. And I tested this with
my staff and had these wonderful team of leaders men
and women who said, yeah, I think this makes sense
(47:58):
to us. This is a way of capturing all the
fancy language and verbiage and prose of our mission statement.
You've got it there in a sentence that you can
share on an elevator and still have some time left
on the elevator ride to get a response. The great
experience was by two thousand and eight when I delivered
this speech to the incoming freshman class, and when the
(48:21):
parents heard we're trying to produce at more House renaissance
men and renaissance people with social conscience and global perspective
who were known for the five wells of being well read,
well spoken, well traveled, well dressed, and well balanced student.
The parents gave me a standing oal. You know it
(48:42):
was you know, you never get a standing ovation for
the first addressed. All of the parents are standing shouting,
and the kids, the young men is in there. We're
not so hot about this, you know, well dressed, what
do you mean exactly? But but what was interesting, Carol
is Two weeks later, my vice president of student affairs kid, hey,
(49:03):
doctor Frank, I think that I think the five wells
is catching on. Yesterday I saw a student with the
five wells on a T shirt. Now, we didn't lose
any T shirt this kid, and then he showed it
to me later in the cape. Two five wells right there,
well rid. They were proud to claim that set of
expectations of what the school. And this is my parting
(49:24):
word to the community. We need to be clearer about
our expectations what we expect even as we respect then
the mystery and trust the process and those expectations will
be internalized and may take those young people a long
way in life. Oh. Absolutely, they stayed with me for sure,
(49:45):
and I was growing when I heard them. So Yes, absolutely,
Doctor Franklin, I thank you so so so much. As
always a pleasure to talk with you. And as I said,
I could just keep going. Before we actually wrap up, though,
I going to ask you to please play the GCP
bonus round very quickly. You just tell me your favorite
(50:08):
poem that it could be of saying a quote a psalm.
You could ask that of any of my students and
they would all say the same thing. And it's a
it's a quote, a sentence from a medieval Rabbi Maimonides.
It simply says the world is equally balanced between good
and evil, and your next act will tip the scale
(50:33):
great and it's so perfect for this conversation. And finally,
two of your favorite children's books, and they can be
books you grew up with or books that you remember
reading to your kids. Yes, yes, well, the one that
immediately comes to mind is The Little Prince by Saint Exupere.
Some might argue it's not a children's book many of
(50:55):
us are exposed to that early in life. It is
such an extra ordinary story about about journey, about being lost,
about finding oneself through friendship, about sharing, about meeting strangers,
and negotiating everyday life in an unpredictable world, with a
(51:19):
sense of a center, a sense of value, and a
moral compass. So The Little Prince is something I certainly commend.
But the other I was suggesting is the New Testament
story or parable of the Prodigal Son, and what happens
when a young person reared in a loving, secure household
(51:42):
decides I have to make it on my own. They
depart and counter difficult times, and while there, while experimenting,
while trying things that they would never have tried at home,
there's that sense I remember that I am loved in
that household. I can go home. The light will be
(52:04):
on for me. And it was that recognition at his
most difficult moment, I want to go back, I want
to turn around and convert, and the possibility of reconciliation
and of re entry, of leaving that difficult place, being
lost or incarcerated, or whatever it might be, and returning
(52:26):
home to a context of love and nurture and acceptance
that makes all the difference in our lives. Oh that
was wonderful because as one who has struggled with the
prodigal son story, that description of it makes me think
a little differently about it. So again, I thank you
so much for being with us. We will all. It's
(52:50):
been a great conversation, and you know that I really
enjoy talking to you, and I'm sure parents listening really
appreciate your advice and your experiences. Thank you, Carol. I
listened to all of your shows. By the way, you
have a brilliant mind and a malifluous voice, so I
enjoy listening to you and learning from you. So thank
(53:10):
you so much. I hope everyone listening enjoyed this conversation
and that you'll come back for more. Please rate, review,
and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and tell your friends.
For more parenting info and advice, please check out the
ground Control Parenting blog at ground control parenting dot com.
You can also find us on Instagram and Facebook at
(53:32):
ground Control Parenting and on LinkedIn under Carol Sutton Lewis.
The Ground Control Parenting with Carol Sutton Lewis podcast is
a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership
with iHeartMedia. Until the next time, take care and thanks
for listening.
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