February 15, 2023 • 49 mins
She’s a world famous prima ballerina and the first African American principal dancer with the American Ballet Theater. Misty Copeland has a long history of overcoming obstacles, breaking barriers, and inspiring her many fans. Now, in her first full-length public conversation about parenting since the birth of her son Jackson, Misty joins Carol to talk about her life as a new mom: how it’s been, how it’s going, and what she hopes lies ahead for herself and her family. They discuss how mentors can play a vital parenting role and Misty shares the influential and supportive impact mentors have had on her life, which she details in her latest book, The Wind at My Back: Resilience, Grace, and Other Gifts from My Mentor Raven Wilkinson. You’ll hear from Misty Copeland as you’ve never heard before in this candid, informative, and heart-warming episode. Follow us at @GroundControlParenting and on www.groundcontrolparenting.com See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Ground Control Parenting, a blog and
now a podcast creator for parents raising black and brown children.
I'm the creator and your host, Carol Sutton Lewis. In
this podcast series, I talked with some really interesting people
about the job and the joy of parenting. Today, I
am thrilled to welcome the amazing Misty Copeland to the podcast. Misty,
as our listeners surely know, is a principal dancer with
(00:26):
the American Ballet Theater. She began her ballet studies at
the age of thirteen and was immediately identified as a prodigy.
She joined the American Ballet Theater Studio Company in two thousand,
became a member of their quarter ballet in two thousand one,
and in two thousand seven became a BT's second African
American female soloist and the first in two decades. In
twenty fifteen, Misty was promoted to principal dancer, making her
(00:49):
the first African American woman to ever be promoted to
the position in the company seventy five year history. But
Missy didn't just stop at breaking down all these barriers
in the world of ballet. As she continues to dance,
she's also doing so much more. She's working to bring
ballet to undeserved communities. She's empowering other black dancers to
use their voices. She's building her foundation to move these
and other missions forward. She's working with other athletes of
(01:12):
a launch of sports apparel label. She's building a production company.
And she's the New York Times best selling author of
a number of wonderful books, including her memoir Life and
Motion and Unlikely Ballerina, and her latest book, The Wind
at My Back, Resilience, Grace and Other Gifts from my mentor,
Raven Wilkinson, which was just published in November two. She
(01:33):
wrote this book with Susan fails Hill, her longtime friend
and mentor who's been on this show and is a
good friend of this podcast. And now she's a mom.
Misty is married to Attorney O Lou Evans, and in
July they welcome their son, Jackson. Welcome to ground Control Parenting. Misty,
thank you so much for having me, Ah. I am
(01:54):
so very excited to have you with us today. And
there's so much to talk about. You've had so many
wonderful productions in two your baby, your book, and more
so let's just get started. So Misty. When I first
began reading your your new book, and in the prologue,
I was thrilled to see your candid thoughts of your
(02:16):
not yet born black son. And you wondered when you
were thinking about him, who would he be? Who would
he want to become? And quoting now, would doors be
open to him or would you have to break them
down with the help of so many others who have
tried before him. I mean, these are all questions that
we ponder regularly. Who are our children going to be?
(02:36):
And how can we help our black boys and girls
become the best that they can be? And so and
and here we give parents resources to address them. So
my first question for you is how has new motherhood been?
I mean, how how has it been? How is it
having a son? Well, I just first have to say,
I'm I'm so happy to be here having this conversation
(02:58):
with you, Carol. I you know, I'm I'm very private
in terms of my you know, my personal life outside
of my career as a ballerina um and it's just
been a whole new world entering into motherhood and and
deciding you know, the things I will share and uh,
you know, in terms of my experience or even just
(03:20):
you know, sharing Jackson with the world. And so I'm
thankful for this space that you have, you know created,
um and you know it's it's a first for me.
So this is you know, a little nerve wracking, you know,
talking about you know, I'm a I'm a new mother,
(03:41):
and it's been one of the most rewarding things that
I've ever experienced. I mean, I've always known that i
wanted to be a mother. I'm so grateful to have
grown up in a large family. I'm one of six children,
and I just you know, loved having siblings. I say
(04:03):
that we all raised each other. We were all each
other's best friends and UM, and I wanted to be
able to have my own family one day, which has
been difficult with you know, being in a career that
I have a career that I'm in, UM, but I
have enjoyed every minute of it. My husband likes to say, like,
(04:24):
just there's don't share too much because you know people
might feel a certain way. Because I enjoyed my pregnancy,
I enjoyed labor. I've I've been I've tried to see
like the beauty in in every part of motherhood. So far.
You're probably looking at me like there's so much more
(04:46):
to know. Well there is, but you know, I'm so
happy to hear you say this, because so much of
talk about parenting now is is handwringing and and focusing
on the things that are tough, the thing that um,
the sacrificing, and and while there is plenty of that,
and and sure it is a challenge to there to
(05:08):
have a child that you need to put first and foremost,
but I'm happy to hear how much you've enjoyed it
so far. I I was really headed for a total
different life as as cliche as this might sound, before
I had children, and was really startled to understand how
much I enjoyed, uh, the whole process that the having
(05:29):
them and watching them develop and helping them grow. And so,
first of all, let me say, I get that it's tough.
A lot of people had tough labors and they have
children that are colloguy. I mean, I get that there's
a lot of difficulty, but it's also really good to
remind people that it's it can be an absolutely wonderful experience.
So so good oh that, and certainly here we celebrate yeah. Yeah,
(05:54):
So so you mentioned you come from a large family
and it was it was great fun. So you have
a boy, and you say in your I think it's
your most recent book about how you look forward to
introducing him to the world of of of ballet, the
world of culture and all the world. You know, is
there anything that you think differently about with respect to
a boy? Are there any any nervous at all about
(06:16):
a boy? I mean, you have brothers, so maybe that Yeah,
it definitely helps. And you know, my my youngest sibling,
UM is a boy, my youngest brother, Cameron, and so
I have such vivid memories. I think I was seven,
seven or eight when he was born. So I feel
like I was very involved, or at least in my
own mind, I thought I was really helping out UM.
(06:38):
And I really enjoyed uh a boy like I enjoyed
having him. Uh. I don't know just the experience of
of UM getting to to see how a boy develops
and how, you know, how it was different from me
and my and my uh my sister who I was
very close with UM and very close with. But you know,
(07:00):
I feel like I'm just trying to come at this
from a very uh open uh place where I don't
want to have these expectations of what I think it
should you know, be like to raise a boy or
the things he should be doing. I want him to
just be able to explore everything. And I have to say,
(07:22):
I'm just so blessed to have Olu as a partner
who is just incredible when it comes to um allowing
for me to you know, parent the way that I
want to. We have, of course a lot of open discussions,
but uh, you know there's never any like you know,
(07:43):
stay away from that. Like we want to be able
to explore and allow for Jackson to explore, so we're
keeping things open. I mean he's just now starting classes,
um music classes and sensory classes and uh um and
you know we're just we're letting him explore everything. And
(08:05):
so I don't know, I'm sure it would be it
will be very different if and when I have a girl,
um what that experience will be like. But right now,
it's just it's been I don't know, it just feels
like normal. I guess great. And just as the quick
as side, I will tell you my oldest is a
(08:25):
girl and then uh, she's seven years older than her
youngest brother. The three years older than the middle one,
and that's seven year difference. You're it is a completely
understandable feeling that you had that you were helped to
raise him. Because my baby, the youngest, when he went
off to college, he part of his college essay was
talking about how he really feels that his siblings raised
(08:48):
him as much as his parents did. So, I mean,
at the end of the day, I'm very happy about that,
but I had to give me pause. I'm like, really,
but that's so fun me. So when it comes to
the concept of parenting, I often say that, um, how
(09:08):
we were raised really impacts how we parent, and if
we liked part of our childhood, we parent in that direction,
and if we don't like them, we parent away. And
it's really hard to even know how that works until
you have a child. So you've you've written in in
depth about how you grew up and and the closeness
of your family, but the and the opportunities you had
(09:29):
through ballet and then the challenge you had with balancing
ballet and family. So what kind of values and lessons
do you think you want to pass on to Jackson? Like,
what would you like to bring forward from the way
that you grew up. Um. You know, it's having having
Jackson has definitely made me step back and and have
more of an understanding and appreciation for, um, you know,
(09:52):
the way that my mother raised me and my siblings.
You know, I I cannot imagine having six children in
my twenties and doing it on my own. For the
most part, I cannot. And so it makes me, um,
I think understand a bit more about you know, where
(10:14):
my mother's priorities were, which was to uh, you know,
keep food on the table and a roof over our head.
And that's that's what she could do in those moments,
in that time for us, And it makes me appreciate
it in a different way rather than you know, focusing
on the things that you know, we didn't have. I
(10:35):
think I feel like I've spent my life doing that already,
and and now I'm at a point where it's like
I can see the bigger picture, um, of what it
was she was doing and UM And I've often, i think,
looked at me and my siblings and and all of
our success and thought like, oh, it just must be
(10:56):
like in our genes that that none of us ended
up on the streets or you know, in a in
a difficult situation. But you know, I think a lot
of it was my my mother's UM parenting and and
the things that she was focused on, which I don't
think I could see clearly um before having children. UM.
(11:19):
So you know, I think that it's it's really about
and I used to hate when my mother would say this,
but it's about doing the best you can do. It's
about doing the best that you can do. You know,
whether it's with you know, the circumstances, the resources you have, UM,
doing doing the best you can do, and in offering
love every single day to to your child. UM. What's
(11:43):
been really interesting is, you know, because I've I've been
with Olo for I think like eighteen years now, UM,
we've been married for six. But it's been a long
journey and so you know, I feel like his mom
has been such a big part of my life. And
what's been fascinating is I think the change in our relationship,
you know, with my mother in law. UM. Literally from
(12:06):
the moment Jackson came out into the world, I felt
a h an insane bond with my mother in law
Linda UM and and respect for the way she raised Olu,
for the incredible man and husband and father that he
is now. And um also just the difficulties of what
(12:27):
it was to raise a black boy as a white
a woman. UM So, I just feel like I have
such different you know, perspectives that um, I think are
really gonna help me in in raising Jackson. Just having
such different voices and points of view, that's that's really great.
(12:47):
And I have to say that as I read your
earliest memoir, I was struck as you described circumstances growing
up that we're undeniably difficult sounding. Your consistent passion for
your mother in that circumstance came through so clearly. I'm
glad to hear that it's even stronger now. But I
marveled as I've read how how um um, how how
(13:11):
consistent your compassion for her work was. And it really
did prove something that I think about a lot, and
that is in my circumstances, my parents, who were very
loving and supportive and of both myself and my brother,
parented us very differently. Um. I was an easier child
to parent, and my brother was difficult, I mean he
(13:31):
didn't like school, I mean difficult from their perspective, there
was some he was up to more mischief than I was.
And what that taught me was that people could be
really loving, really supportive, want the best for you, and
just not know exactly what to do I mean, or
or unintentionally do things that don't necessarily move you in
the right direction. So so when I was reading about
(13:53):
your mom, I was thinking, she's compassionate, and it makes
sense because her mom was clearly doing what she thought
was the best thing. But in that same in your
discussion of those days, you talk about the things that, um,
you're not only your childhood but your work through the
world of ballet, the things that you learned out about
the strength, the resilience, the grit. So here's wonderful little
(14:15):
jackson who is growing up in a different world, completely
different world, I mean from when he is very young.
There will be things that he will have access to.
They will be opportunities for him. He won't have the
same sort of obstacles early obstacles to hurtle over to
give him this resilience. How are you thinking about how
to pass on those strengths when he's when he's going
(14:36):
to have, in a good way, a very different upbringing. Um,
I think it's about letting him really experience things for himself. UM.
Also putting him in different environments and around you know,
different types of children and in different communities. I mean
we're again, oh, lou Is so on it, and he's
(14:57):
he's always like thinking like twenty steps ahead. Um, you know,
even just exposing him to you know, we live on
the Upper west Side, and we don't want him to
just be on the Upper west Side in classes around
you know, in this neighborhood, but just to to be
able to experience all types of people. UM. And again,
(15:19):
you know, I never thought I would be this way.
I always thought I was going to be tough as
a mom. I really did. I was like, nope, I'm
going to be the discipline area. I'm gonna be the
one that's um you know, like let him, let him
sit there and cry or do whatever. And I think
it hasn't been that easy. UM, but I but I
(15:42):
still believe that, you know that I want him to
be able to develop the tools to be able to, um,
get through tough situations and not and not be the
person that's like doing that for him or or trying
to do that for him. UM. Yeah, let him, you know,
be an independent person, independent thinker UM, and I think
(16:05):
it's it's gonna be tough. It's been tough, you know,
to to watch to watch him struggle, even though again
he's he's only like ten months old. Um. But but yeah,
I think that it's it's it's really about kind of
um being there as a support system, but also um,
you know, being able to let go a little bit.
(16:27):
Mm hmmm. I think that's really important and that is
a challenge. The very good news is that you recognize
that upfront as a challenge because many people who UM
come from different circumstances that they find themselves, and when
they have children, instinctively just really want to sort of
redo in their own minds sort of the world that
they wish they had lived in, and that includes a
(16:48):
world where as a child you don't want for anything,
and as a child you sort of get to do
the things you want to do. It's understandable, but it's problematic.
And I say this, it sounds like it makes sense
that you wouldn't do that, but so many people are
drawn to do that because you know, you remember you
identify pretty strongly with the feelings you have when you
(17:08):
were eight and couldn't get that thing, right right, right right.
So I want to talk a little bit now about
your most recent book and your your discussion of in
loving detail of Raven Wilkinson, who was the first black
ballerina and the ballet Rousta Monte Carlo, and how she
created a path for your journey and she was able
(17:29):
to teach you and help you, and you had also
other mentors, and you had your initial mentors that the
Cynthia Bradley, the woman who introduced you to ballet, and
and Susan fails Hill, who we know and love. There's
a really good connection between mentoring and parenting. I mean,
in fact, I think you refer to Susan jokingly as
the other another mommy. I mean, can you can you
(17:51):
talk about how mentors kind of play a parenting role
and maybe reach young people in a way that parents
can't or or don't know how to. Uh. I mean
I've I've always valued those relationships that I have. You know,
I've seen my mother in in uh her role and um,
you know the capacity that she had to to parent
(18:12):
me and my siblings. But there have always been incredible
mentors in my life that have, um, you know, come
like you're saying like being able to articulate things in
a different way or allow me to open my mind
and see things from a different perspective. UM. And you know,
because it's not your parents and UM or you know,
(18:33):
it's just a different bond in relationship and so UM,
you know, I understand how vital that is. And you know,
Olu and I talk about it often, like he didn't
really have that relationship, those types of relationships in his
life and he really regrets not UM maybe having someone
to push him towards that or you know, having a
(18:55):
mentor that came into his life, or understanding the value
of it. So it's definitely something that we are aware
of and want Jackson to be you know, to UM
to understand that, you know, there are there are different
relationships that are valuable and important to to have UM,
so that he does have a safe space maybe when
(19:17):
there's certain things he doesn't feel comfortable telling us, or
it's just easier to UM to do that with other people.
But the relationships that I've had, you know, with with
Susan UM, with raven Um, you know, even with Prince,
they all pulled something unique and different out of me
(19:38):
and allowed me to see myself, UM, and the strengths
I have UM in a way that I couldn't before. UM.
What Raven gave to me was this sense of just
endless love and hope. UM. I mean, her resilience was
was just unbelievable whole UM. You know what she experienced
(20:02):
throughout her her life and her career being a black
woman and you know working as a professional ballerine in
the nineteen fifties, and um, the racism she experienced. And
yet she still had this undying love and passion for
for the art form. And she shared that with me
(20:22):
and and made me have a renewed sense of love
and respect and UM and hope for what the future
could be UM for you know, the next generation of
black and brown dancers that you know come into this
world or just want to be a part of this
art form. UM. So you know, I I just I
(20:46):
value those relationships so much because they've allowed me to
become the woman that I am and again bring something
out of me that my mother couldn't. And you know,
on that on that note, I I definitely I have
girlfriends who I will literally even though my children are
(21:07):
in their twenties and thirties now Um, well, I will
say to my friend, can you just call her and
talk to her? Because I mean, she's not going to
hear this from me. So so the relationships never they
never end. But but but but it's an interesting relationship
because sometimes, I mean I do this with my girlfriends,
I kind of authorized this. But their instances where um,
(21:30):
you children have mentors that aren't buddies with the right parents.
So how do you suggest mother's cultivate mentors and more
importantly sit comfortably in the space that welcomes the help
but isn't threatened by it because it's kind of it
can be kind of threatening if there's somebody else that
is has your child's ear, you know, I mean you
(21:51):
have to kind of let go of that. I mean,
do you think that's going to be that would be
tough to do or yeah, I definitely, I definitely think
it's gonna be too. I'm already in a place of like,
you have a nanny or babysitter. I'm like, but what
if he's more attached to them? If I'm not, like,
it's just like ridiculous, you know, things that I'm already
thinking about. So like, yes, I'm sure that I'm going
(22:12):
to have those have those feelings. I don't know. I mean,
you know, I wonder if it's you know, these are
relationships maybe that are cultivated through a passion of his.
So there's a different it's coming from a different angle.
So it's not just like, oh, there's this random woman
that's serving as like a second mother to you, you know,
but it's you know, but so that it's you know,
(22:34):
at least that's been my experiences that you know, the
mentors that I've had have kind of come um through uh,
you know, having a voice or a lens of of
something that I'm doing, of something that I'm a part of.
You know, Susan being um on the board of American
Ballet Theater for as long as she was, and she
was coming with a very unique perspective for me, UM.
(22:57):
So it wasn't like she was just fulfilling this this
mother position, but you know she was she was a
black woman that understood that world UM, but also was
was coming with um more of I guess like a
business savvy uh point of view as well, not just
from the artistic side, but also had a relationship with
(23:20):
my artistic director and was was getting a push from
him to be that person for me, because I would
feel more comfort, um, you know, having it come from
a black woman who experienced her her own life and
journey of being a black woman in America rather than, um,
(23:40):
you know, an older white man who didn't really understand
that journey. So I feel like, you know, all of
these people have have found their way, um through things
that are meaningful to me. And so I hope that's uh,
you know, maybe a way that that Jackson will be
able to, um find find those types of relationship um
(24:00):
that will probably make me feel a bit more like
understanding of you know, where where they come from and
the purpose that they will serve. That that's a really
good answer, and and it reminds us that as parents
we do have to, as tempting as it is to
look at everything for the prism of us and our child.
There are people that are going to be in their
lives that are going to know about things you don't
(24:23):
know about, and they're also going to have perspective and
advice that you can have as a parent. And so
it's sort of the more the merrier in the village
that that is raising up your child. I read your
your most recent book, And it struck me that mentors
certainly serve the wonderful purpose of guiding a person and
helping them along the way, but they also they remind
(24:45):
the person who's being mentored that there's someone else that
is as has their back and is also um has
a has an expectation with a non anxious concept, just
that that when things get tough, you can remember that
I'm thinking of you and Rave and like she was
able to do things that were really tough, and so
when things became tough for you, this sort of almost
(25:06):
an an instinctive and internal kind of additional obligation, not
in a bad way, but in a in a motivational way,
in an additional motivation to do it, because it wasn't
just you. You're not alone. You've got that. That's you've
got the lad which is why you called the book.
What you did? You explain that so well. I I agree.
(25:28):
We'll be right back after these messages. Welcome back to
the show. One of the things I want to ask
you about, so do your focus on parenting and parenting
a black boy in particular, so you are clearly your
career is proof positive that you can dive really deeply
and you can dive into something you can you're disciplined
about it, and you can master it. Are you approaching
(25:51):
parenting like that, and particularly parenting this boy and in
this world? Is it the same kind of intensity? It's
so fascinating? Is that? Um? That is how I've I
feel like I approached most things in my life, being
a being a ballerina, being an artist, being a virgo um.
And my husband's kind of the opposite, uh when it
(26:13):
comes to parenting. I feel like we've almost swapped. Um
that that he's the one that's that's you know, you know,
reading every book and and just really kind of focused
on doing things in in in a certain way. And
I feel like I've kind of let go a little more.
And Um, I don't know. I look at at Jackson
(26:37):
is like this beautiful work of art that I want
to like enjoy but also like nurture and and keep
it uh growing and alive. Um. Yeah, but but the
early years there's definitely just can I just keep you alive? Please? Um?
(26:59):
And so yeah, I I don't feel like there's the
same intensity that I have in my approach I've had
in my approach for my career in getting to where
I need to go, I think that I'm allowing for
a bit more um flexibility UM, where I don't think
I have been as forgiving with myself to be that way.
(27:23):
It was just like you're gonna work, work, work, even
if you are about to break, um because you have
and and in fact you did break. But yeah, because
there's like a different responsibility and expectation and weight. I
felt that, of course there are there are those things
as a mother as well, but I feel like, um,
(27:45):
I have to be more flexible in order for him
to have room um to grow. M hm. This day,
you are just the perfect g c PM. I mean,
all the things that you're saying instinctively are the things
that I talk about all the time, that this concept
of of of certainly you need a certain amount of
(28:06):
discipline because there there are parenting skills that are helpful
and all these research that says if you you know,
if you do things, it will be helpful. So there's
there's certainly they're guidelines to follow, but intensity for its
own sake in terms of parenting is sort of like
particularly I mean, I you know in New York City
where it's just the parks are kind of buzzing with
(28:30):
people who are intensive about every aspect of their child.
It's like that always. I so reject that concept that
you know, there is a certain thing that has to
be done in a certain order and your child, if
your child doesn't do X by hy, you need to
weary So good. I'm glad. I'm glad that you are
able to sort of step back from that because it
(28:53):
doesn't um, you know, there there's so many things in
your child's life which will encourage you to feel more
that way. There's the school process and so to the
extent that you can sort of get to a zen
more a zen like place in the early days and
stay there as long as you can. It just I mean,
it makes for just a happier child. Happier and I
(29:16):
feel like, um, you know, even just going back and
thinking about my pregnancy and we might have we might
have discussed this the last time I saw you, but
just trying to not take everything to heart, like I
was hearing that the people were telling me. Um, I
feel like I've been good about letting that go, like sure,
I will listen and um. And it's interesting to hear different, uh,
(29:39):
different people's experience and you know what they've experienced with
their child. But I feel like I got kind of
bombarded with people's experiences and opinions, um, and so much
of it felt like negative, like this, you're you know,
you're this is what you're You're gonna be sick, You're
gonna this, It's gonna be hard, it's gonna be in
And I just had to just go, Um, I want
(30:01):
experiences for myself and I want you know, whether it's
difficult or not, like I want. I know, it's a journey. Um.
And I feel like that's how I've looked at my
career as well, like even though I've been always been
hard on myself, but it's a journey and and and
you have to enjoy the process. It's not just about
reaching these milestones and um, and what you know, when
(30:25):
are they going to do this? When are they gonna walk?
When are they gonna crawl? And so just enjoying the
whole thing and not let letting other people's words kind
of um take over and take away. I think the
joy of your experience. Oh absolutely, I really I agree that,
particularly from pregnancy on. I guess it's under the concept
(30:46):
of misery loves company. I mean, people want to tell
you about their terrible experiences, and they under the guise
of preparing me for what could happen. But there's some
sort of bizarre badge of on are amongst people about
the terrible things that they experienced, which I too with.
You know, that's how it seems. It's different. Yeah, it's
(31:09):
different for everyone, And it's just this concept of um
of uh and in fact, it's rampant throughout sort of
parenting um conversations about Okay, let's drink wine and let's
talk about how bad it is. And you know, I
hope that it's granted it's not. You know, I like
to be a good guest, you know, in that in
that circle, I'll be like even like getting even getting
(31:33):
sick during my pregnancy, which I did for like almost
the entire thing I there was I don't know, I
it was okay, I'm like, I've experienced a lot worse.
And then I mean, but and then not to get
all sappy about it, but I mean, honestly, I mean,
(31:55):
I think about this one. I'm looking at my like
six foot tall children. It's like this think you were
crying sounds. I feel the same, really I mean, if
you get it, you get sick. I mean, goodness knows,
you're you're like nobody else does. There's stuff happening in
your body, and then a human is going to come.
I mean, okay, that that shouldn't be a walk in
(32:16):
the park. And when I was pregnant for the first
time and people wanted to tell me all about their
seventy two hour labors and all that, I would just
look outside. You know, I live in New York City,
so this is easy, and they're always a zillion people
out there, and I think if it was really that bad,
there wouldn't be this many people. We would we have
stopped doing this. So anyway, well, good, you're you're definitely
(32:40):
on the right track. That's that's really good. So so
one more area of questioning, which I'm sure yet all
the time, but perhaps not in this way. So, as
I detailed in the open, you have so much going on.
I mean, you're dancing, you're producing, your writing, and now
your mom on top of that. So before I asked
you the cliche question which I will ask about how
(33:02):
you manage it all, I'm going to ask it in
a different way. Thus far, is there anything that you
can see that is from your ballet training in life
that has impacted your parenting and the converse of that
as you dance. Is there anything that now that your
mom has changed the way that you do your work?
You know, I'm um, I feel like I've become a
(33:24):
different person since, like I gave birth, Like it's it's
changed the way that I even um look at my
career as as a dancer and um and just moving forward.
It's also been interesting because I'm not really back on
stage yet, so I haven't really fully like dobin um
(33:45):
to really being back in that space. So I feel
like I don't really know what I'm going to bring.
I I know that as an artist, being on stage
and portraying a character, having you know, this relationship with
Jackson is definitely going to come out in the way
that I, um, you know, pull from my life experiences
(34:05):
which I always have when I'm when I'm acting on stage.
So I know that that's something that's going to blossom
and grow that I'm so looking forward to. The physical
aspect of it has been really hard, um to get
to get back into it, and you know, and I'm
I'm forty years old now and Um, you know that's
older for for a ballerina and you know, pushing it
(34:28):
for a mom too. So it's it's you know, you know,
I will push back on both of those. And that
my mom took me to see day Margo Fonte when
he was young and she was well over four nights
and and I was that age when I gave birth
to almost that I went when I mean, I've had
children that age. Yes, yeah, I good. I appreciate that.
(34:50):
It is. It is on a spectrum on one right, right, right, right,
you're good, You're good. Um. But yeah, I I think
that you know, there's a there's a discipline of course
that I bring from my own experience and training, a
discipline and a patience. I think that I bring um
(35:14):
from my life as a ballerina and my work in
the studio, um into my life as as a mother.
Um that you know, it's it's a balance of things,
and it's and it's gonna be constantly changing and evolving.
It's how I you know, I look at my body
that that I'm approaching every single morning. I'm not dealing
(35:35):
with a machine that you know, like a computer that
you you know, download all this information into and save
that it's constantly changing and there's a balance. And I
feel like that's the way I look at at Jackson.
You know, he may have done one thing yesterday and
it's like so exciting, and he may not do it
the next day, and it's you know, it's just being
(35:57):
patient with with the whole process. And I feel like,
you know, we just talked about I'm not I'm not old,
but be a more more mature, you know, to have
my first child and having a lot um. You know,
I'm not not twenty years old, and so I feel
like I have a lot of life experience to be
able to kind of ground me in my approach in
(36:21):
motherhood and just a different perspective. And again, patients, um
through this process. Okay, you've nailed sort of the key
thing there that patients, patients is the watchword for parenting,
and so good. That's a really good answer. And so
(36:43):
so now I will I will just ask the clich
I mean, there's so much going on. I mean, even
if you weren't a new mom, you have a lot
of things, a lot of work that you're doing. But um,
how do you handle the pressure? And the is a
question that I'm sure parents, everyone want to know of
of having all these different moving pieces now, Uh, you know,
(37:07):
it's it's hard, it's hard. And again I'm so thankful
that I have uh, that I have my husband and
and we're very fortunate to you know, be in a
position like oh, Lou works from home now, like since
the pandemic, he gave he gave up his office at
his at his law firm, um, which has been so nice,
(37:27):
um to have him home. And also just you know,
we we've done it on our own. We we just
um brought help in um, I don't know, four weeks ago,
so the you know, the first I don't know, nine
and nine months of his life, it was just the
two of us. UM. But something suffer. And and again
it's like it's you know, some things are going to suffer,
(37:50):
and you have to put your phone. You know, it's
just redirecting your focus at different times and and you
know the things that need attention at that time. And
and I and I just to be transparent and honest
right now. Ballet is the thing that's kind of like
on the back burner, um since since the pandemic. And
you know, I wasn't dancing during during that time it's
(38:13):
kind of rolled over into into now. But in that
time it allowed me to really develop these other things
that are that are so close to me and I'm
so passionate about and it's all aligned and connected to
my dance career and and um and who I am
as a leader in that space. You know, all of
these projects aren't kind of just random things that stand
(38:35):
on their own, but they're all they're all connected, and
so I think that it's it's only realistic that some
things are are going to have to suffer a little bit,
you know, when when building my own foundation from the
ground up and it's finally off the ground, and um
the production company and uh, but you know, I'll I'm
(38:58):
hiring bill doing teams for those things so that I
can step away and and really focused on on my
dancing again. UM. So yeah, it's it's being able to
just kind of step back and and uh and not
feel like I have to be perfect in all aspects
(39:19):
of everything I'm doing and have total and complete control
over everything, um all the time. UM. It's about finding
the right team and trusting in them to be able
to step in and and and um and do things
that you can't do um, but Jackson's my focus now,
So of course, um you know it. I was thinking
(39:45):
as you were talking that it makes all the sense
in the world that you would be doing all these
different things because pretty much from when you came onto
the scene in ballet, and you've talked about this a lot,
You've you've you've looked at it differently, and the ballet
world has looked at you differently. I mean, you've always
kind of pushed in different directions. I mean, your groundbreaking
work with Prince You're amazing under Armour campaign, You're allowing
(40:10):
people to view ballet in in arenas in which they
weren't accustomed to viewing ballet. It's also part of what
what I think what's so and so admirable about you
as as not just a dancer, but as a leader
in the dance world. And so it makes sense to
me that even now with more demands, a little baby
and maturing, it makes sense to me that you would
(40:32):
still be pushing at all these different areas. So, um,
so that is that is truly inspirational, I have to say,
and and and um it is it is truly great
to see you know. I'm gonna wrap it up, and
but when as I do, I just want to use
a quote from you. I want to quote you to
in the It's it's your advice that you give to
(40:52):
young dancers and you say there's no way to go
on stage and be the dancer and artists you want
to be if you're not prepared, focused and grounded. And
I when I read that, I was like the same
thing for parenting. So you have a parenting quote in
your book even before you even game a parent. So
(41:15):
so so as as I wrap up, Missy, first of all,
I can't thank you enough, but we're not quite done
yet because I would love for you as I wrap up,
to play with me as all my guests do the
GCP Lightning Round. Okay, I just have four very quick
questions for you. But before I get into them again,
thank you so much. It's been thrilling as I knew
(41:36):
it would be, and I'm so excited for you. I
hope that I have not intruded too much into a
private world with Jackson that I appreciate so much that
you've shared a part of it with us. So so
here are the four the four questions. The first one
is do you have a favorite poem or saying, um,
I'm first of all, I'm so bad at these like
lightning rounds, because my answers are always a way too
long and depth. Its lightning means only the speak of questions.
(42:03):
I mean, I have to say like my Angelo and
um and still I rise. But I also um. And
this is twofold because it's also one of my favorite
books recently has become Um is a poem UM Lullaby
for a Black Mother by Langston Hughes. Um. So yeah,
(42:25):
those two great great. That was That was a pretty answer.
That was good. And speaking of books, I'm asking for
your favorite two children's books and you can include one
that you remember growing up with and or one that
you like to read to do okay, Um, you know,
I I wish that I would have known about or
(42:45):
been introduced to more black authors and and and children's
books growing up. And I don't have recollection of that. Um,
but one that always stuck with me, which is is
interesting and I think it was just the like the
creativity of this story was where the Wild Things Are?
(43:06):
That's always been like was one of my favorites growing up.
But as I was saying, lullabi for a Black Mother.
Um is a beautiful, um you know, picture book. But
um also it had to be You, which is like
it's such a silly book. But I remember, um like
reading it to Jackson like the first month that you know,
(43:28):
he was home and crying so much like every time,
and him just staring at me like why is this
wet stuff falling on my face? These silly books that
when you're just like so emotional and so happy that
just like make you ball. Yeah, yeah, it's great. Okay,
(43:52):
So these next two questions I have to do with
mom moments. So give me it has there yet been
a mom moment? And I'm funny and lighthearted, not anything
deep that you might have wanted to do over again.
I mean, do it differently. Have you anything happened You're like, oh,
next time, you know, there hasn't been anything that's been
that crazy. Um, I feel like I would have I
(44:14):
would just be like, next time around, try not to
stress so much about nursing. I think that there's just
like there's so much expectation and pressure around it, and um,
you know, and I mean I I'm coming to a
close now. It's been like officially it'll be like ten
(44:36):
months of breastfeeding, which I'm so happy that I could
do for Jackson UM, but I just felt like throughout
the throughout it, it was like is it gonna end?
Like when is it? You know? Am I going to
be able to produce? And like just crazy schedules stuff
like I four. I think for eight months, I was
(44:56):
waking up at two am and pumping because that to
where I was getting like the most milk, and it
was just miserable, like it just has to be, like
I don't know a better way, so I guess i'd
redo that. Yeah, no, you know, it's funny. I actually
haven't talked much about nursing, but yeah, I agree with you.
(45:18):
There's a lot that surrounds it. I mean, clearly, there's
research that indicates that it is a good thing to do,
and we all know that, and those of us who
can do it do do it. But I have to
tell you, by the time I got to my third child, um,
you know those the span of time kept getting shorter
and shorter. And you know, he's twenty three now, he's
(45:39):
good shape. I don't think that, you know, I can't
there's no distinction between the first author that I can
point out, so so I agree we can all kind
of relaxed about that. I mean it it's just, you know,
it sometimes feels like the world inspires to put people
who are in the circumstance of with being with a
newborn like all. What you do not need is additional
pressure for more is to be nervous about. It's just
(46:02):
it's just it's back to that attempt to get to
the zen. I mean, so so good. I'm glad that
until finally, UM, tell me a moment already where you've
nailed it as a mom and it can be the
bawling over the book when you were reading. That's certainly
the Mormon, right, Um, you know I have to say that.
(46:24):
Just not too long ago. Um, oh, Lou Jackson and
I were on a flight from oh it was over
New Year's like coming coming back in the New Year
from Miami. And Jackson has been on like his first
flight was to Corsica to Frank Like, he's been on
a lot of flights, and he's been on long flights
and Miami was not a long when I mean we
(46:44):
we were delayed and stuff. So there was like some
some things that added to his experience. But it was
the first time that we experienced him having a full
melt down on the plane. And Al and I have
talked about this and you know, but of course you
experienced and it's just such a different thing. But just
letting go of this like embarrassment and you know, like
(47:09):
need to control him and the moment and other people's
expectations and whatever it is they feel. Um. And so
I'm so I was very close to tears just with
the frustration of of everything that was happening. But I
think the way that um, that both Old and I
handled that moment, I'm very proud you know that it
(47:32):
was what it was. We were doing everything we could
to you know, make Jackson comfortable, UM, but it was
just out of our control and UM, and I think
it was just hilarious that you know, we it was
it was late at night, so like the lights were
off in the plane, so it was just like, I
don't know what everyone's thinking or going through behind us,
(47:54):
and you know, we we stood up and there was um,
this this older gentlemen that you know was just like,
I have seven this is a blessing. These tears and
screens are a blessing. And we were like thank you.
So I was a proud moment. It's actually kind of
(48:15):
an interesting and good release to realize it's like, you
know what, things happen. Yeah, it's a good way to
walk through parenting. I mean, you know, things happen, You
do the best thing you can, You work hard to
do the best you can. But full circle, our our parents,
our mothers, are the best they could and that's what
we are doing right exactly, Misty, thank you so much,
(48:39):
great answers, great conversation. Thank you so much. Really appreciated
so much for having me. This has been really awesome.
I hope everyone listening enjoyed this conversation and that you'll
come back for more. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever
you listen to podcasts and tell your friends. For more
parenting info and advice, please check out the Round Control
(49:00):
Parenting blog at ground Control Parenting dot com. You can
also find us on Instagram and Facebook at ground Control
Parenting and on LinkedIn under Carol Sutton Lewis. The Ground
Control Parenting with Carol Sutton Lewis podcast is a part
of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership with iHeartMedia.
Until the next time, take care and thanks for listening,
Hello, and welcome to Ground Control Parenting, a blog and
now a podcast creator for parents raising black and brown children.
I'm the creator and your host, Carol Sutton Lewis. In
this podcast series, I talked with some really interesting people
about the job and the joy of parenting. Today, I
am thrilled to welcome the amazing Misty Copeland to the podcast. Misty,
as our listeners surely know, is a principal dancer with
(00:26):
the American Ballet Theater. She began her ballet studies at
the age of thirteen and was immediately identified as a prodigy.
She joined the American Ballet Theater Studio Company in two thousand,
became a member of their quarter ballet in two thousand one,
and in two thousand seven became a BT's second African
American female soloist and the first in two decades. In
twenty fifteen, Misty was promoted to principal dancer, making her
(00:49):
the first African American woman to ever be promoted to
the position in the company seventy five year history. But
Missy didn't just stop at breaking down all these barriers
in the world of ballet. As she continues to dance,
she's also doing so much more. She's working to bring
ballet to undeserved communities. She's empowering other black dancers to
use their voices. She's building her foundation to move these
and other missions forward. She's working with other athletes of
(01:12):
a launch of sports apparel label. She's building a production company.
And she's the New York Times best selling author of
a number of wonderful books, including her memoir Life and
Motion and Unlikely Ballerina, and her latest book, The Wind
at My Back, Resilience, Grace and Other Gifts from my mentor,
Raven Wilkinson, which was just published in November two. She
(01:33):
wrote this book with Susan fails Hill, her longtime friend
and mentor who's been on this show and is a
good friend of this podcast. And now she's a mom.
Misty is married to Attorney O Lou Evans, and in
July they welcome their son, Jackson. Welcome to ground Control Parenting. Misty,
thank you so much for having me, Ah. I am
(01:54):
so very excited to have you with us today. And
there's so much to talk about. You've had so many
wonderful productions in two your baby, your book, and more
so let's just get started. So Misty. When I first
began reading your your new book, and in the prologue,
I was thrilled to see your candid thoughts of your
(02:16):
not yet born black son. And you wondered when you
were thinking about him, who would he be? Who would
he want to become? And quoting now, would doors be
open to him or would you have to break them
down with the help of so many others who have
tried before him. I mean, these are all questions that
we ponder regularly. Who are our children going to be?
(02:36):
And how can we help our black boys and girls
become the best that they can be? And so and
and here we give parents resources to address them. So
my first question for you is how has new motherhood been?
I mean, how how has it been? How is it
having a son? Well, I just first have to say,
I'm I'm so happy to be here having this conversation
(02:58):
with you, Carol. I you know, I'm I'm very private
in terms of my you know, my personal life outside
of my career as a ballerina um and it's just
been a whole new world entering into motherhood and and
deciding you know, the things I will share and uh,
you know, in terms of my experience or even just
(03:20):
you know, sharing Jackson with the world. And so I'm
thankful for this space that you have, you know created,
um and you know it's it's a first for me.
So this is you know, a little nerve wracking, you know,
talking about you know, I'm a I'm a new mother,
(03:41):
and it's been one of the most rewarding things that
I've ever experienced. I mean, I've always known that i
wanted to be a mother. I'm so grateful to have
grown up in a large family. I'm one of six children,
and I just you know, loved having siblings. I say
(04:03):
that we all raised each other. We were all each
other's best friends and UM, and I wanted to be
able to have my own family one day, which has
been difficult with you know, being in a career that
I have a career that I'm in, UM, but I
have enjoyed every minute of it. My husband likes to say, like,
(04:24):
just there's don't share too much because you know people
might feel a certain way. Because I enjoyed my pregnancy,
I enjoyed labor. I've I've been I've tried to see
like the beauty in in every part of motherhood. So far.
You're probably looking at me like there's so much more
(04:46):
to know. Well there is, but you know, I'm so
happy to hear you say this, because so much of
talk about parenting now is is handwringing and and focusing
on the things that are tough, the thing that um,
the sacrificing, and and while there is plenty of that,
and and sure it is a challenge to there to
(05:08):
have a child that you need to put first and foremost,
but I'm happy to hear how much you've enjoyed it
so far. I I was really headed for a total
different life as as cliche as this might sound, before
I had children, and was really startled to understand how
much I enjoyed, uh, the whole process that the having
(05:29):
them and watching them develop and helping them grow. And so,
first of all, let me say, I get that it's tough.
A lot of people had tough labors and they have
children that are colloguy. I mean, I get that there's
a lot of difficulty, but it's also really good to
remind people that it's it can be an absolutely wonderful experience.
So so good oh that, and certainly here we celebrate yeah. Yeah,
(05:54):
So so you mentioned you come from a large family
and it was it was great fun. So you have
a boy, and you say in your I think it's
your most recent book about how you look forward to
introducing him to the world of of of ballet, the
world of culture and all the world. You know, is
there anything that you think differently about with respect to
a boy? Are there any any nervous at all about
(06:16):
a boy? I mean, you have brothers, so maybe that Yeah,
it definitely helps. And you know, my my youngest sibling,
UM is a boy, my youngest brother, Cameron, and so
I have such vivid memories. I think I was seven,
seven or eight when he was born. So I feel
like I was very involved, or at least in my
own mind, I thought I was really helping out UM.
(06:38):
And I really enjoyed uh a boy like I enjoyed
having him. Uh. I don't know just the experience of
of UM getting to to see how a boy develops
and how, you know, how it was different from me
and my and my uh my sister who I was
very close with UM and very close with. But you know,
(07:00):
I feel like I'm just trying to come at this
from a very uh open uh place where I don't
want to have these expectations of what I think it
should you know, be like to raise a boy or
the things he should be doing. I want him to
just be able to explore everything. And I have to say,
(07:22):
I'm just so blessed to have Olu as a partner
who is just incredible when it comes to um allowing
for me to you know, parent the way that I
want to. We have, of course a lot of open discussions,
but uh, you know there's never any like you know,
(07:43):
stay away from that. Like we want to be able
to explore and allow for Jackson to explore, so we're
keeping things open. I mean he's just now starting classes,
um music classes and sensory classes and uh um and
you know we're just we're letting him explore everything. And
(08:05):
so I don't know, I'm sure it would be it
will be very different if and when I have a girl,
um what that experience will be like. But right now,
it's just it's been I don't know, it just feels
like normal. I guess great. And just as the quick
as side, I will tell you my oldest is a
(08:25):
girl and then uh, she's seven years older than her
youngest brother. The three years older than the middle one,
and that's seven year difference. You're it is a completely
understandable feeling that you had that you were helped to
raise him. Because my baby, the youngest, when he went
off to college, he part of his college essay was
talking about how he really feels that his siblings raised
(08:48):
him as much as his parents did. So, I mean,
at the end of the day, I'm very happy about that,
but I had to give me pause. I'm like, really,
but that's so fun me. So when it comes to
the concept of parenting, I often say that, um, how
(09:08):
we were raised really impacts how we parent, and if
we liked part of our childhood, we parent in that direction,
and if we don't like them, we parent away. And
it's really hard to even know how that works until
you have a child. So you've you've written in in
depth about how you grew up and and the closeness
of your family, but the and the opportunities you had
(09:29):
through ballet and then the challenge you had with balancing
ballet and family. So what kind of values and lessons
do you think you want to pass on to Jackson? Like,
what would you like to bring forward from the way
that you grew up. Um. You know, it's having having
Jackson has definitely made me step back and and have
more of an understanding and appreciation for, um, you know,
(09:52):
the way that my mother raised me and my siblings.
You know, I I cannot imagine having six children in
my twenties and doing it on my own. For the
most part, I cannot. And so it makes me, um,
I think understand a bit more about you know, where
(10:14):
my mother's priorities were, which was to uh, you know,
keep food on the table and a roof over our head.
And that's that's what she could do in those moments,
in that time for us, And it makes me appreciate
it in a different way rather than you know, focusing
on the things that you know, we didn't have. I
(10:35):
think I feel like I've spent my life doing that already,
and and now I'm at a point where it's like
I can see the bigger picture, um, of what it
was she was doing and UM And I've often, i think,
looked at me and my siblings and and all of
our success and thought like, oh, it just must be
(10:56):
like in our genes that that none of us ended
up on the streets or you know, in a in
a difficult situation. But you know, I think a lot
of it was my my mother's UM parenting and and
the things that she was focused on, which I don't
think I could see clearly um before having children. UM.
(11:19):
So you know, I think that it's it's really about
and I used to hate when my mother would say this,
but it's about doing the best you can do. It's
about doing the best that you can do. You know,
whether it's with you know, the circumstances, the resources you have, UM,
doing doing the best you can do, and in offering
love every single day to to your child. UM. What's
(11:43):
been really interesting is, you know, because I've I've been
with Olo for I think like eighteen years now, UM,
we've been married for six. But it's been a long
journey and so you know, I feel like his mom
has been such a big part of my life. And
what's been fascinating is I think the change in our relationship,
you know, with my mother in law. UM. Literally from
(12:06):
the moment Jackson came out into the world, I felt
a h an insane bond with my mother in law
Linda UM and and respect for the way she raised Olu,
for the incredible man and husband and father that he
is now. And um also just the difficulties of what
(12:27):
it was to raise a black boy as a white
a woman. UM So, I just feel like I have
such different you know, perspectives that um, I think are
really gonna help me in in raising Jackson. Just having
such different voices and points of view, that's that's really great.
(12:47):
And I have to say that as I read your
earliest memoir, I was struck as you described circumstances growing
up that we're undeniably difficult sounding. Your consistent passion for
your mother in that circumstance came through so clearly. I'm
glad to hear that it's even stronger now. But I
marveled as I've read how how um um, how how
(13:11):
consistent your compassion for her work was. And it really
did prove something that I think about a lot, and
that is in my circumstances, my parents, who were very
loving and supportive and of both myself and my brother,
parented us very differently. Um. I was an easier child
to parent, and my brother was difficult, I mean he
(13:31):
didn't like school, I mean difficult from their perspective, there
was some he was up to more mischief than I was.
And what that taught me was that people could be
really loving, really supportive, want the best for you, and
just not know exactly what to do I mean, or
or unintentionally do things that don't necessarily move you in
the right direction. So so when I was reading about
(13:53):
your mom, I was thinking, she's compassionate, and it makes
sense because her mom was clearly doing what she thought
was the best thing. But in that same in your
discussion of those days, you talk about the things that, um,
you're not only your childhood but your work through the
world of ballet, the things that you learned out about
the strength, the resilience, the grit. So here's wonderful little
(14:15):
jackson who is growing up in a different world, completely
different world, I mean from when he is very young.
There will be things that he will have access to.
They will be opportunities for him. He won't have the
same sort of obstacles early obstacles to hurtle over to
give him this resilience. How are you thinking about how
to pass on those strengths when he's when he's going
(14:36):
to have, in a good way, a very different upbringing. Um,
I think it's about letting him really experience things for himself. UM.
Also putting him in different environments and around you know,
different types of children and in different communities. I mean
we're again, oh, lou Is so on it, and he's
(14:57):
he's always like thinking like twenty steps ahead. Um, you know,
even just exposing him to you know, we live on
the Upper west Side, and we don't want him to
just be on the Upper west Side in classes around
you know, in this neighborhood, but just to to be
able to experience all types of people. UM. And again,
(15:19):
you know, I never thought I would be this way.
I always thought I was going to be tough as
a mom. I really did. I was like, nope, I'm
going to be the discipline area. I'm gonna be the
one that's um you know, like let him, let him
sit there and cry or do whatever. And I think
it hasn't been that easy. UM, but I but I
(15:42):
still believe that, you know that I want him to
be able to develop the tools to be able to, um,
get through tough situations and not and not be the
person that's like doing that for him or or trying
to do that for him. UM. Yeah, let him, you know,
be an independent person, independent thinker UM, and I think
(16:05):
it's it's gonna be tough. It's been tough, you know,
to to watch to watch him struggle, even though again
he's he's only like ten months old. Um. But but yeah,
I think that it's it's it's really about kind of
um being there as a support system, but also um,
you know, being able to let go a little bit.
(16:27):
Mm hmmm. I think that's really important and that is
a challenge. The very good news is that you recognize
that upfront as a challenge because many people who UM
come from different circumstances that they find themselves, and when
they have children, instinctively just really want to sort of
redo in their own minds sort of the world that
they wish they had lived in, and that includes a
(16:48):
world where as a child you don't want for anything,
and as a child you sort of get to do
the things you want to do. It's understandable, but it's problematic.
And I say this, it sounds like it makes sense
that you wouldn't do that, but so many people are
drawn to do that because you know, you remember you
identify pretty strongly with the feelings you have when you
(17:08):
were eight and couldn't get that thing, right right, right right.
So I want to talk a little bit now about
your most recent book and your your discussion of in
loving detail of Raven Wilkinson, who was the first black
ballerina and the ballet Rousta Monte Carlo, and how she
created a path for your journey and she was able
(17:29):
to teach you and help you, and you had also
other mentors, and you had your initial mentors that the
Cynthia Bradley, the woman who introduced you to ballet, and
and Susan fails Hill, who we know and love. There's
a really good connection between mentoring and parenting. I mean,
in fact, I think you refer to Susan jokingly as
the other another mommy. I mean, can you can you
(17:51):
talk about how mentors kind of play a parenting role
and maybe reach young people in a way that parents
can't or or don't know how to. Uh. I mean
I've I've always valued those relationships that I have. You know,
I've seen my mother in in uh her role and um,
you know the capacity that she had to to parent
(18:12):
me and my siblings. But there have always been incredible
mentors in my life that have, um, you know, come
like you're saying like being able to articulate things in
a different way or allow me to open my mind
and see things from a different perspective. UM. And you know,
because it's not your parents and UM or you know,
(18:33):
it's just a different bond in relationship and so UM,
you know, I understand how vital that is. And you know,
Olu and I talk about it often, like he didn't
really have that relationship, those types of relationships in his
life and he really regrets not UM maybe having someone
to push him towards that or you know, having a
(18:55):
mentor that came into his life, or understanding the value
of it. So it's definitely something that we are aware
of and want Jackson to be you know, to UM
to understand that, you know, there are there are different
relationships that are valuable and important to to have UM,
so that he does have a safe space maybe when
(19:17):
there's certain things he doesn't feel comfortable telling us, or
it's just easier to UM to do that with other people.
But the relationships that I've had, you know, with with
Susan UM, with raven Um, you know, even with Prince,
they all pulled something unique and different out of me
(19:38):
and allowed me to see myself, UM, and the strengths
I have UM in a way that I couldn't before. UM.
What Raven gave to me was this sense of just
endless love and hope. UM. I mean, her resilience was
was just unbelievable whole UM. You know what she experienced
(20:02):
throughout her her life and her career being a black
woman and you know working as a professional ballerine in
the nineteen fifties, and um, the racism she experienced. And
yet she still had this undying love and passion for
for the art form. And she shared that with me
(20:22):
and and made me have a renewed sense of love
and respect and UM and hope for what the future
could be UM for you know, the next generation of
black and brown dancers that you know come into this
world or just want to be a part of this
art form. UM. So you know, I I just I
(20:46):
value those relationships so much because they've allowed me to
become the woman that I am and again bring something
out of me that my mother couldn't. And you know,
on that on that note, I I definitely I have
girlfriends who I will literally even though my children are
(21:07):
in their twenties and thirties now Um, well, I will
say to my friend, can you just call her and
talk to her? Because I mean, she's not going to
hear this from me. So so the relationships never they
never end. But but but but it's an interesting relationship
because sometimes, I mean I do this with my girlfriends,
I kind of authorized this. But their instances where um,
(21:30):
you children have mentors that aren't buddies with the right parents.
So how do you suggest mother's cultivate mentors and more
importantly sit comfortably in the space that welcomes the help
but isn't threatened by it because it's kind of it
can be kind of threatening if there's somebody else that
is has your child's ear, you know, I mean you
(21:51):
have to kind of let go of that. I mean,
do you think that's going to be that would be
tough to do or yeah, I definitely, I definitely think
it's gonna be too. I'm already in a place of like,
you have a nanny or babysitter. I'm like, but what
if he's more attached to them? If I'm not, like,
it's just like ridiculous, you know, things that I'm already
thinking about. So like, yes, I'm sure that I'm going
(22:12):
to have those have those feelings. I don't know. I mean,
you know, I wonder if it's you know, these are
relationships maybe that are cultivated through a passion of his.
So there's a different it's coming from a different angle.
So it's not just like, oh, there's this random woman
that's serving as like a second mother to you, you know,
but it's you know, but so that it's you know,
(22:34):
at least that's been my experiences that you know, the
mentors that I've had have kind of come um through uh,
you know, having a voice or a lens of of
something that I'm doing, of something that I'm a part of.
You know, Susan being um on the board of American
Ballet Theater for as long as she was, and she
was coming with a very unique perspective for me, UM.
(22:57):
So it wasn't like she was just fulfilling this this
mother position, but you know she was she was a
black woman that understood that world UM, but also was
was coming with um more of I guess like a
business savvy uh point of view as well, not just
from the artistic side, but also had a relationship with
(23:20):
my artistic director and was was getting a push from
him to be that person for me, because I would
feel more comfort, um, you know, having it come from
a black woman who experienced her her own life and
journey of being a black woman in America rather than, um,
(23:40):
you know, an older white man who didn't really understand
that journey. So I feel like, you know, all of
these people have have found their way, um through things
that are meaningful to me. And so I hope that's uh,
you know, maybe a way that that Jackson will be
able to, um find find those types of relationship um
(24:00):
that will probably make me feel a bit more like
understanding of you know, where where they come from and
the purpose that they will serve. That that's a really
good answer, and and it reminds us that as parents
we do have to, as tempting as it is to
look at everything for the prism of us and our child.
There are people that are going to be in their
lives that are going to know about things you don't
(24:23):
know about, and they're also going to have perspective and
advice that you can have as a parent. And so
it's sort of the more the merrier in the village
that that is raising up your child. I read your
your most recent book, And it struck me that mentors
certainly serve the wonderful purpose of guiding a person and
helping them along the way, but they also they remind
(24:45):
the person who's being mentored that there's someone else that
is as has their back and is also um has
a has an expectation with a non anxious concept, just
that that when things get tough, you can remember that
I'm thinking of you and Rave and like she was
able to do things that were really tough, and so
when things became tough for you, this sort of almost
(25:06):
an an instinctive and internal kind of additional obligation, not
in a bad way, but in a in a motivational way,
in an additional motivation to do it, because it wasn't
just you. You're not alone. You've got that. That's you've
got the lad which is why you called the book.
What you did? You explain that so well. I I agree.
(25:28):
We'll be right back after these messages. Welcome back to
the show. One of the things I want to ask
you about, so do your focus on parenting and parenting
a black boy in particular, so you are clearly your
career is proof positive that you can dive really deeply
and you can dive into something you can you're disciplined
about it, and you can master it. Are you approaching
(25:51):
parenting like that, and particularly parenting this boy and in
this world? Is it the same kind of intensity? It's
so fascinating? Is that? Um? That is how I've I
feel like I approached most things in my life, being
a being a ballerina, being an artist, being a virgo um.
And my husband's kind of the opposite, uh when it
(26:13):
comes to parenting. I feel like we've almost swapped. Um
that that he's the one that's that's you know, you know,
reading every book and and just really kind of focused
on doing things in in in a certain way. And
I feel like I've kind of let go a little more.
And Um, I don't know. I look at at Jackson
(26:37):
is like this beautiful work of art that I want
to like enjoy but also like nurture and and keep
it uh growing and alive. Um. Yeah, but but the
early years there's definitely just can I just keep you alive? Please? Um?
(26:59):
And so yeah, I I don't feel like there's the
same intensity that I have in my approach I've had
in my approach for my career in getting to where
I need to go, I think that I'm allowing for
a bit more um flexibility UM, where I don't think
I have been as forgiving with myself to be that way.
(27:23):
It was just like you're gonna work, work, work, even
if you are about to break, um because you have
and and in fact you did break. But yeah, because
there's like a different responsibility and expectation and weight. I
felt that, of course there are there are those things
as a mother as well, but I feel like, um,
(27:45):
I have to be more flexible in order for him
to have room um to grow. M hm. This day,
you are just the perfect g c PM. I mean,
all the things that you're saying instinctively are the things
that I talk about all the time, that this concept
of of of certainly you need a certain amount of
(28:06):
discipline because there there are parenting skills that are helpful
and all these research that says if you you know,
if you do things, it will be helpful. So there's
there's certainly they're guidelines to follow, but intensity for its
own sake in terms of parenting is sort of like
particularly I mean, I you know in New York City
where it's just the parks are kind of buzzing with
(28:30):
people who are intensive about every aspect of their child.
It's like that always. I so reject that concept that
you know, there is a certain thing that has to
be done in a certain order and your child, if
your child doesn't do X by hy, you need to
weary So good. I'm glad. I'm glad that you are
able to sort of step back from that because it
(28:53):
doesn't um, you know, there there's so many things in
your child's life which will encourage you to feel more
that way. There's the school process and so to the
extent that you can sort of get to a zen
more a zen like place in the early days and
stay there as long as you can. It just I mean,
it makes for just a happier child. Happier and I
(29:16):
feel like, um, you know, even just going back and
thinking about my pregnancy and we might have we might
have discussed this the last time I saw you, but
just trying to not take everything to heart, like I
was hearing that the people were telling me. Um, I
feel like I've been good about letting that go, like sure,
I will listen and um. And it's interesting to hear different, uh,
(29:39):
different people's experience and you know what they've experienced with
their child. But I feel like I got kind of
bombarded with people's experiences and opinions, um, and so much
of it felt like negative, like this, you're you know,
you're this is what you're You're gonna be sick, You're
gonna this, It's gonna be hard, it's gonna be in
And I just had to just go, Um, I want
(30:01):
experiences for myself and I want you know, whether it's
difficult or not, like I want. I know, it's a journey. Um.
And I feel like that's how I've looked at my
career as well, like even though I've been always been
hard on myself, but it's a journey and and and
you have to enjoy the process. It's not just about
reaching these milestones and um, and what you know, when
(30:25):
are they going to do this? When are they gonna walk?
When are they gonna crawl? And so just enjoying the
whole thing and not let letting other people's words kind
of um take over and take away. I think the
joy of your experience. Oh absolutely, I really I agree that,
particularly from pregnancy on. I guess it's under the concept
(30:46):
of misery loves company. I mean, people want to tell
you about their terrible experiences, and they under the guise
of preparing me for what could happen. But there's some
sort of bizarre badge of on are amongst people about
the terrible things that they experienced, which I too with.
You know, that's how it seems. It's different. Yeah, it's
(31:09):
different for everyone, And it's just this concept of um
of uh and in fact, it's rampant throughout sort of
parenting um conversations about Okay, let's drink wine and let's
talk about how bad it is. And you know, I
hope that it's granted it's not. You know, I like
to be a good guest, you know, in that in
that circle, I'll be like even like getting even getting
(31:33):
sick during my pregnancy, which I did for like almost
the entire thing I there was I don't know, I
it was okay, I'm like, I've experienced a lot worse.
And then I mean, but and then not to get
all sappy about it, but I mean, honestly, I mean,
(31:55):
I think about this one. I'm looking at my like
six foot tall children. It's like this think you were
crying sounds. I feel the same, really I mean, if
you get it, you get sick. I mean, goodness knows,
you're you're like nobody else does. There's stuff happening in
your body, and then a human is going to come.
I mean, okay, that that shouldn't be a walk in
(32:16):
the park. And when I was pregnant for the first
time and people wanted to tell me all about their
seventy two hour labors and all that, I would just
look outside. You know, I live in New York City,
so this is easy, and they're always a zillion people
out there, and I think if it was really that bad,
there wouldn't be this many people. We would we have
stopped doing this. So anyway, well, good, you're you're definitely
(32:40):
on the right track. That's that's really good. So so
one more area of questioning, which I'm sure yet all
the time, but perhaps not in this way. So, as
I detailed in the open, you have so much going on.
I mean, you're dancing, you're producing, your writing, and now
your mom on top of that. So before I asked
you the cliche question which I will ask about how
(33:02):
you manage it all, I'm going to ask it in
a different way. Thus far, is there anything that you
can see that is from your ballet training in life
that has impacted your parenting and the converse of that
as you dance. Is there anything that now that your
mom has changed the way that you do your work?
You know, I'm um, I feel like I've become a
(33:24):
different person since, like I gave birth, Like it's it's
changed the way that I even um look at my
career as as a dancer and um and just moving forward.
It's also been interesting because I'm not really back on
stage yet, so I haven't really fully like dobin um
(33:45):
to really being back in that space. So I feel
like I don't really know what I'm going to bring.
I I know that as an artist, being on stage
and portraying a character, having you know, this relationship with
Jackson is definitely going to come out in the way
that I, um, you know, pull from my life experiences
(34:05):
which I always have when I'm when I'm acting on stage.
So I know that that's something that's going to blossom
and grow that I'm so looking forward to. The physical
aspect of it has been really hard, um to get
to get back into it, and you know, and I'm
I'm forty years old now and Um, you know that's
older for for a ballerina and you know, pushing it
(34:28):
for a mom too. So it's it's you know, you know,
I will push back on both of those. And that
my mom took me to see day Margo Fonte when
he was young and she was well over four nights
and and I was that age when I gave birth
to almost that I went when I mean, I've had
children that age. Yes, yeah, I good. I appreciate that.
(34:50):
It is. It is on a spectrum on one right, right, right, right,
you're good, You're good. Um. But yeah, I I think
that you know, there's a there's a discipline of course
that I bring from my own experience and training, a
discipline and a patience. I think that I bring um
(35:14):
from my life as a ballerina and my work in
the studio, um into my life as as a mother.
Um that you know, it's it's a balance of things,
and it's and it's gonna be constantly changing and evolving.
It's how I you know, I look at my body
that that I'm approaching every single morning. I'm not dealing
(35:35):
with a machine that you know, like a computer that
you you know, download all this information into and save
that it's constantly changing and there's a balance. And I
feel like that's the way I look at at Jackson.
You know, he may have done one thing yesterday and
it's like so exciting, and he may not do it
the next day, and it's you know, it's just being
(35:57):
patient with with the whole process. And I feel like,
you know, we just talked about I'm not I'm not old,
but be a more more mature, you know, to have
my first child and having a lot um. You know,
I'm not not twenty years old, and so I feel
like I have a lot of life experience to be
able to kind of ground me in my approach in
(36:21):
motherhood and just a different perspective. And again, patients, um
through this process. Okay, you've nailed sort of the key
thing there that patients, patients is the watchword for parenting,
and so good. That's a really good answer. And so
(36:43):
so now I will I will just ask the clich
I mean, there's so much going on. I mean, even
if you weren't a new mom, you have a lot
of things, a lot of work that you're doing. But um,
how do you handle the pressure? And the is a
question that I'm sure parents, everyone want to know of
of having all these different moving pieces now, Uh, you know,
(37:07):
it's it's hard, it's hard. And again I'm so thankful
that I have uh, that I have my husband and
and we're very fortunate to you know, be in a
position like oh, Lou works from home now, like since
the pandemic, he gave he gave up his office at
his at his law firm, um, which has been so nice,
(37:27):
um to have him home. And also just you know,
we we've done it on our own. We we just
um brought help in um, I don't know, four weeks ago,
so the you know, the first I don't know, nine
and nine months of his life, it was just the
two of us. UM. But something suffer. And and again
it's like it's you know, some things are going to suffer,
(37:50):
and you have to put your phone. You know, it's
just redirecting your focus at different times and and you
know the things that need attention at that time. And
and I and I just to be transparent and honest
right now. Ballet is the thing that's kind of like
on the back burner, um since since the pandemic. And
you know, I wasn't dancing during during that time it's
(38:13):
kind of rolled over into into now. But in that
time it allowed me to really develop these other things
that are that are so close to me and I'm
so passionate about and it's all aligned and connected to
my dance career and and um and who I am
as a leader in that space. You know, all of
these projects aren't kind of just random things that stand
(38:35):
on their own, but they're all they're all connected, and
so I think that it's it's only realistic that some
things are are going to have to suffer a little bit,
you know, when when building my own foundation from the
ground up and it's finally off the ground, and um
the production company and uh, but you know, I'll I'm
(38:58):
hiring bill doing teams for those things so that I
can step away and and really focused on on my
dancing again. UM. So yeah, it's it's being able to
just kind of step back and and uh and not
feel like I have to be perfect in all aspects
(39:19):
of everything I'm doing and have total and complete control
over everything, um all the time. UM. It's about finding
the right team and trusting in them to be able
to step in and and and um and do things
that you can't do um, but Jackson's my focus now,
So of course, um you know it. I was thinking
(39:45):
as you were talking that it makes all the sense
in the world that you would be doing all these
different things because pretty much from when you came onto
the scene in ballet, and you've talked about this a lot,
You've you've you've looked at it differently, and the ballet
world has looked at you differently. I mean, you've always
kind of pushed in different directions. I mean, your groundbreaking
work with Prince You're amazing under Armour campaign, You're allowing
(40:10):
people to view ballet in in arenas in which they
weren't accustomed to viewing ballet. It's also part of what
what I think what's so and so admirable about you
as as not just a dancer, but as a leader
in the dance world. And so it makes sense to
me that even now with more demands, a little baby
and maturing, it makes sense to me that you would
(40:32):
still be pushing at all these different areas. So, um,
so that is that is truly inspirational, I have to say,
and and and um it is it is truly great
to see you know. I'm gonna wrap it up, and
but when as I do, I just want to use
a quote from you. I want to quote you to
in the It's it's your advice that you give to
(40:52):
young dancers and you say there's no way to go
on stage and be the dancer and artists you want
to be if you're not prepared, focused and grounded. And
I when I read that, I was like the same
thing for parenting. So you have a parenting quote in
your book even before you even game a parent. So
(41:15):
so so as as I wrap up, Missy, first of all,
I can't thank you enough, but we're not quite done
yet because I would love for you as I wrap up,
to play with me as all my guests do the
GCP Lightning Round. Okay, I just have four very quick
questions for you. But before I get into them again,
thank you so much. It's been thrilling as I knew
(41:36):
it would be, and I'm so excited for you. I
hope that I have not intruded too much into a
private world with Jackson that I appreciate so much that
you've shared a part of it with us. So so
here are the four the four questions. The first one
is do you have a favorite poem or saying, um,
I'm first of all, I'm so bad at these like
lightning rounds, because my answers are always a way too
long and depth. Its lightning means only the speak of questions.
(42:03):
I mean, I have to say like my Angelo and
um and still I rise. But I also um. And
this is twofold because it's also one of my favorite
books recently has become Um is a poem UM Lullaby
for a Black Mother by Langston Hughes. Um. So yeah,
(42:25):
those two great great. That was That was a pretty answer.
That was good. And speaking of books, I'm asking for
your favorite two children's books and you can include one
that you remember growing up with and or one that
you like to read to do okay, Um, you know,
I I wish that I would have known about or
(42:45):
been introduced to more black authors and and and children's
books growing up. And I don't have recollection of that. Um,
but one that always stuck with me, which is is
interesting and I think it was just the like the
creativity of this story was where the Wild Things Are?
(43:06):
That's always been like was one of my favorites growing up.
But as I was saying, lullabi for a Black Mother.
Um is a beautiful, um you know, picture book. But
um also it had to be You, which is like
it's such a silly book. But I remember, um like
reading it to Jackson like the first month that you know,
(43:28):
he was home and crying so much like every time,
and him just staring at me like why is this
wet stuff falling on my face? These silly books that
when you're just like so emotional and so happy that
just like make you ball. Yeah, yeah, it's great. Okay,
(43:52):
So these next two questions I have to do with
mom moments. So give me it has there yet been
a mom moment? And I'm funny and lighthearted, not anything
deep that you might have wanted to do over again.
I mean, do it differently. Have you anything happened You're like, oh,
next time, you know, there hasn't been anything that's been
that crazy. Um, I feel like I would have I
(44:14):
would just be like, next time around, try not to
stress so much about nursing. I think that there's just
like there's so much expectation and pressure around it, and um,
you know, and I mean I I'm coming to a
close now. It's been like officially it'll be like ten
(44:36):
months of breastfeeding, which I'm so happy that I could
do for Jackson UM, but I just felt like throughout
the throughout it, it was like is it gonna end?
Like when is it? You know? Am I going to
be able to produce? And like just crazy schedules stuff
like I four. I think for eight months, I was
(44:56):
waking up at two am and pumping because that to
where I was getting like the most milk, and it
was just miserable, like it just has to be, like
I don't know a better way, so I guess i'd
redo that. Yeah, no, you know, it's funny. I actually
haven't talked much about nursing, but yeah, I agree with you.
(45:18):
There's a lot that surrounds it. I mean, clearly, there's
research that indicates that it is a good thing to do,
and we all know that, and those of us who
can do it do do it. But I have to
tell you, by the time I got to my third child, um,
you know those the span of time kept getting shorter
and shorter. And you know, he's twenty three now, he's
(45:39):
good shape. I don't think that, you know, I can't
there's no distinction between the first author that I can
point out, so so I agree we can all kind
of relaxed about that. I mean it it's just, you know,
it sometimes feels like the world inspires to put people
who are in the circumstance of with being with a
newborn like all. What you do not need is additional
pressure for more is to be nervous about. It's just
(46:02):
it's just it's back to that attempt to get to
the zen. I mean, so so good. I'm glad that
until finally, UM, tell me a moment already where you've
nailed it as a mom and it can be the
bawling over the book when you were reading. That's certainly
the Mormon, right, Um, you know I have to say that.
(46:24):
Just not too long ago. Um, oh, Lou Jackson and
I were on a flight from oh it was over
New Year's like coming coming back in the New Year
from Miami. And Jackson has been on like his first
flight was to Corsica to Frank Like, he's been on
a lot of flights, and he's been on long flights
and Miami was not a long when I mean we
(46:44):
we were delayed and stuff. So there was like some
some things that added to his experience. But it was
the first time that we experienced him having a full
melt down on the plane. And Al and I have
talked about this and you know, but of course you
experienced and it's just such a different thing. But just
letting go of this like embarrassment and you know, like
(47:09):
need to control him and the moment and other people's
expectations and whatever it is they feel. Um. And so
I'm so I was very close to tears just with
the frustration of of everything that was happening. But I
think the way that um, that both Old and I
handled that moment, I'm very proud you know that it
(47:32):
was what it was. We were doing everything we could
to you know, make Jackson comfortable, UM, but it was
just out of our control and UM, and I think
it was just hilarious that you know, we it was
it was late at night, so like the lights were
off in the plane, so it was just like, I
don't know what everyone's thinking or going through behind us,
(47:54):
and you know, we we stood up and there was um,
this this older gentlemen that you know was just like,
I have seven this is a blessing. These tears and
screens are a blessing. And we were like thank you.
So I was a proud moment. It's actually kind of
(48:15):
an interesting and good release to realize it's like, you
know what, things happen. Yeah, it's a good way to
walk through parenting. I mean, you know, things happen, You
do the best thing you can, You work hard to
do the best you can. But full circle, our our parents,
our mothers, are the best they could and that's what
we are doing right exactly, Misty, thank you so much,
(48:39):
great answers, great conversation. Thank you so much. Really appreciated
so much for having me. This has been really awesome.
I hope everyone listening enjoyed this conversation and that you'll
come back for more. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever
you listen to podcasts and tell your friends. For more
parenting info and advice, please check out the Round Control
(49:00):
Parenting blog at ground Control Parenting dot com. You can
also find us on Instagram and Facebook at ground Control
Parenting and on LinkedIn under Carol Sutton Lewis. The Ground
Control Parenting with Carol Sutton Lewis podcast is a part
of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership with iHeartMedia.
Until the next time, take care and thanks for listening,
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