March 1, 2023 • 46 mins
Harriette Cole joins Carol to talk about the positive and affirming ways that Black parents can share their morals and values with their children. Harriette, the former lifestyle editor and fashion director at Essence Magazine, is also an author, a nationally syndicated advice columnist, a multimedia producer, and host of the radio show DreamLeapers and podcast DreamLeapers Inspiration. Harriette was raised by loving parents who believed “excellence was the only option”. She tells Carol that when it comes to her own parenting style, excellence is not a demand but remains an expectation, and describes how she passes on the best of her parent's beliefs to her daughter as well as to the audiences who follow her trusted advice. Carol and Harriette also connect over the realities of becoming a mom after having a career in full bloom, and the challenges of navigating motherhood with a demanding professional life. Follow us on IG @groundcontrolparenting and at groundcontrolparenting.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Ground Control Parenting, a blog and
now a podcast creative for parents raising black and brown children.
I'm the creator and your host, Carol Sutton Lewis. In
this podcast series, I talk with some really interesting people
about the job and the joy of parenting. Today, I
am so happy to have the fabulous Harriet Cole join
me for today's conversation. Harriet is a true renaissance woman.
(00:28):
I'll only list a few of her many talents. She's
an author, a nationally syndicated advice calumnist, a motivational speaker,
and a multimedia producer. She was an editor at Essence Magazine.
She's launched several magazines, including Savoy and Uptown. She led
the redesign of Evny magazine and she was its editor
in chief. She's provided media training and presentation training for
(00:50):
a host of clients, including celebrities and corporate leaders. She
hosts a weekly radio show, Dream Leapers, and she's been
hosting that since twenty sixteen, and she now also hosts
a weekly podcast, Dream Leaper's Inspiration, where she and her
guests explore ways to inspire listeners to live their best lives.
As she explains on her website. Her mission is to
(01:10):
help people identify, stand in and articulate their greatness. I
love that Harriet is a proud graduate of Howard University.
She and her husband, George Hincy, have a daughter, Carrie,
who will be twenty this year. Welcome to Ground Control Parenting, Harriet.
I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much, Carol,
so excited to have you here. Your mission of helping
(01:31):
people find confidence and your work on presentation training really
resonates with me because here on Ground Control Parenting, we're
all about raising confident, thriving children, and I'm sure we'll
be able to learn valuable lessons from the work you
do and from your own parenting philosophies. So let's get started,
all right. So I always like to start by asking
my guests how they were parented, and in this instance,
I know that that really impacts what you do and
(01:54):
probably also the way you parents. So tell me a
little bit about how you grew up, where you grew up,
and what your parents expectatians were. I'm from Baltimore, the
middle of three girls. My father was the youngest of
five children, single parent household. He became a judge, a lawyer,
(02:15):
and then a judge. He was the first black state
senator in Maryland and later the first black judge on
the Maryland Court of Appeals. That's important for a lot
of reasons. But we grew up in a strict household
where excellence was the only option. My mother dars. My
father's name is Harry Cole. I'm named for him. Ah.
My mother's Darris Cole. She's Darris Freeland Cole. She grew
(02:39):
up the youngest of two children, and she became a teacher.
They were the first generation professionals and college educated, which
is very common in the black community. They will say
they grew up poor but didn't know it. You know.
My grandmother, Carrie, for whom my daughter is named, was
(03:01):
a domestic worker who worked until she was ninety three
when we made her stop working. She lived to be
a hundred and one, and she was independence and grace
and the way we grew up literally excellence being the
only option. That's what my father said, That's how they lived.
(03:22):
We understood that you had to strive to be your
absolute best at all times. There wasn't like downtime for misbehaving.
So the table was set no matter what we ate
if if you had a hot dog, there was still
a knife, fork and spoon and a napkin, and they
had to be washed even if you didn't use them.
(03:45):
And I remember thinking, why why we could not have
the ketchup bottles and mustard and whatever condiments could not
be in their advertising containers on the table because my
father said there would be no advertisements during a meal. Ah,
so it had to be put into a neutral like
(04:06):
whatever the container was that would go on a table
glass or some china, whatever it might be, because there
was no advertising at the table. I'm going to stop
you right there. First of all, I didn't know this.
We'd shared several backgrounds. My mother was a teacher, and
my father was a judge. Also he was a lawyer
and then a judge. Now I'm really curious about the
(04:27):
and I want to talk to you more about this,
but I'm really curious about the expectations of not only
of excellence, but of manners and etiquette and presentation because
like your father certainly, and my mother was first generation
college and she too was very focused on manners and
table settings. I know that that was aspirational for her.
(04:50):
That she didn't grow up with that I mean, she
grew up in a family where they set the table,
but she took it to another level. And I know
that that was part of her aspiration. She wanted to
go to college, She wanted to have a proper she
wanted to know how to do things properly. So you
mentioned your father was one of five in a single
parent home. Do you think he was raised that way
(05:11):
or do you think similarly he sort of aspired to
this life that included this reason. I think he was
raised that way, and I know my mother was, even
though they didn't grow up like that. So in my
mother's case, I'll start with her. Because my grandmother was
a domestic worker. She worked for wealthy, very wealthy people
in Baltimore, primarily Jewish families. Baltimore is a large Jewish
(05:34):
population among the people who she took care of with
the Cone sisters who have a wing in the Maryland
Museum of Art, and they traveled all over the world
and brought like they were friends with Picasso. My grandmother
had a Picasso because she met him. I love that
my grandmother was exposed to everything, and she brought and
(05:56):
they loved her, so they gave her everything. So they
had fine china, and actually one of the practices that
I learned that was from not just my grandmother but
her friends and family. They understood the value of sterling
silver as flatwear, and so they, even though they had
very little money, they would buy for wedding presents and
(06:20):
anniversary presents one sterling silver spoon, one fork, one knife,
so over the course of a lifetime, they and their
loved ones would have a full service of twelve because
they understood they cared about that. So my grandmother kind
of showed her children, my uncle and my mother how
(06:42):
to live a very fine life with very little money.
My father's mother, I don't know how she knew it,
because she was very sterned. I didn't talk to her
as much and she didn't live as long. But their
house was immaculate. They had linen, napki and I don't
know if it was silver, but the table was set
(07:03):
and you had to eat a particular way, So don't
I don't know why they knew it. I know why
my grandmother did, and the way we grew up, my
sisters and I because so this is another part about Baltimore,
which which I think is important to know Baltimore, just
south of the Mason Dixon line, had a thriving black
(07:23):
middle class early, so there was a black elite, so
to speak. Early many social clubs, of course, sororities and fraternities,
but others, and my parents' generation was the first generation
to populate that group. So they grew up and as
(07:44):
did we as their kids, going to all of the
black tie events. My mother had a black tie closet literally,
and I walk in closet that was black tie once
I was her black tie. The other side was all
the custom suits that my father had made from the
time he became an jerney until he retired in order,
and so we lived like this black tie life. That
(08:08):
was the black community. The doctors, the lawyers, the educators,
the business owners. The neighborhood we grew up in became
that because once my parents and the doctor next door
moved in, there was white flight, and so it was
all black professionals and the other pieces. Because my father
was such a prominent member of society, we were the
(08:31):
cold girls, and there was an expectation. You speak about expectations,
there was an expectation that we walked, talked and lived
a particular way and there wasn't even a thought that
you wouldn't live up to the expectation of honoring your
family by being proper kind, down to earth girls and
(08:56):
then young women. That was it. That was what was
expected and we had to live like that. Wow. So
let me ask you about your father's mantra, which was
excellence was the only option. Now in today's world. I mean,
that is certainly admirable. Excellence is something that you really
want to shoot for his parents, we want our children
(09:18):
to strive for excellence, But it being the only option,
it was hard. It was so hard. What exactly did
that mean though? I mean did it mean sort of
just do your best and he could see that you
were doing your best so there was no issue. Or
did it mean you had to come home with great
grades or he was I will give you an example, Carol.
I think I was in about the seventh or eighth
(09:40):
grade and background. My father was a class valedictorian always.
He graduated from Morgan. It wasn't even at the graduation
because he had enlisted in the army for World War Two,
but he was the valedictorian. So you know, okay, I'm
supposed to be the Valedictori. I was the one who
drank that kool aid the most. Well, my younger sister
probably too. But anyway, I came home one day with
(10:02):
a ninety eight on a test. I was so proud.
It was a really difficult class I don't know what
it was, and presented it to my father and very
sternly he looked at me and said, where are the
other two points? I was devastated. I want to tell
you I was mad for about twenty years. I've never forgotten. Stephanie,
my younger sister, said it was a ninety five for her.
(10:22):
He did the same. I was so mad at him,
But in processing, you know, anger at your parents and
all the years that you go through, and then you
get to the other side. I realized his point was
if you got to ninety eight, why would you leave
anything on the table. If you can get to ninety eight,
you can get to a hundred. So his thing was
(10:44):
strived for the best. The way he delivered it was
as a judge does. It was not nice at all,
and I promised that I wouldn't do that to my daughter.
Now if you ask her today, I don't know if
I have been six assiful. I didn't say I was
nicer than I think he was, but she got me.
(11:08):
I wasn't valedictorian, but I was close. I was as
close as I could get. I was a straight a student.
She used too, for the most part. Even though I
have tried to be softer with the beliefs, they're ingrained
in me, and therefore they're ingrained in her. So I
know a little bit about your sisters, and they both
(11:28):
have very impressive careers, and so that worked. I mean,
his approach worked. I'll have to say that that sort
of in There are certain families, mine included, where it
doesn't always work when you have the I mean, my
father was similarly stern and had great expectations, and it
worked for some of us. It didn't work for all
of us. But but it's good. I mean, it is
(11:50):
a good and affirming thing. If three different sisters, three
different personalities, everybody can come away with a lesson relatively unscathed.
It's you know. So my older sister has worked. First
she was a television news anchor, and then she moved
to la with her husband and changed her career. She
was at Disney for many years, working in global HR
(12:11):
and now she runs HR for an international toy company.
My younger sister is the highest ranking black female executive
in all of Lockheed Martin. She runs a seventeen billion
dollar business. So I called myself, you know, like the slacker,
(12:31):
and I sometimes feel like that. You're like, wow, look
at my sisters, And then I realized we're all overachievers. Absolutely,
So I think part of the secret formula, though, must
come from your mother, who was a kindergarten teacher. And
there's a quote somewhere that I've seen that says that
she devoted her life to her children, no question. And
(12:53):
tell me how did that manifest itself? I mean, how
she worked, she was a teacher, How did you feel
her emotion Well, she worked until my younger sister was born,
so for most of our lives she didn't work. And
I've learned later this was a decision that she and
my father made that she would stay home and take
(13:13):
care of the children. There were times when we were
mad because we thought that he was too strict and controlling,
and you know all the things that children think. But
I mean, my mother's ninety three years old now, and
she still has his retirement for life. I mean he's
still taking care of her. He's been gone for twenty
something years. It's amazing. But so she was home after
(13:37):
nineteen sixty five when my sister Stephanie was born and
she took us to school. She was involved in the PTA.
And my mother is beauty, light love. I mean that's
she is. That When my mother would come to visit
me at Howard. This is a true story. That was
when the boys came, they would follow my mother around.
(14:01):
I was like, I have male friends when my mother's
here because she literally is physically beautiful, but she emanates love.
And that's what she taught us. That you beauty is
as beauty does. That was one of her sayings. She
believes in physical beauty and you know, is a girly
girl in some ways, but she's incredibly strong. And something
(14:23):
she did because my father wanted all of his daughters
to stay at home, live at home when we went
to college, so that he could take care of us
and protect us. I guess please. My first year I
went to a local school where my older sister gone Towson.
I hated it. I also hated being under her and
my mother and I did the great escape. I got
(14:46):
to Howard because I was a straight as student, I
could get in. She took me there, got me in,
got me an apartment because it was too late to
be in the dorm. And then my father said, well,
I'm not paying for that, because she shouldn't be leaving.
My mother came out of retirement. She hadn't worked for
fifteen years, and she started working for Random House selling
books so that she would be able to pay for
(15:09):
my college education. Wow, and how what kind of power
is that? Yeah? Yeah, no that yeah yeah no. Mom
may have been okay, sort of following, towing the line
until she didn't want to, well, until it was necessary.
I love this life. I lived this life. She was
you know, the black society ladies so called, but she
(15:32):
was fear. She is fierce, and her children came first.
And for me, I didn't know. I wasn't even sure
I wanted to have children because I knew I didn't
have the personality to stay at home. I didn't think
I could do for my child what my mother had
done for me and my sisters. And so I had
(15:52):
my daughter late at forty two is when I had
my daughter. I've been married for ten years and when
Finally it was like, Okay, maybe this can be a
good thing. I took her everywhere. I said, if I'm
not going to stop working, I am going to show
her what is possible for a woman. I was pregnant
and I was taking a thirteen episode TV series. I
(16:14):
never told them I was pregnant. Thank god I carried small.
I was on a book tour with her, her in
one arm, signing books in the other. She went everywhere
with me until she was in school and continue so
she could see it if I wasn't going to be
at home, she could see a woman can do anything.
(16:34):
And I think she sees that. You know that. I'm
so glad you said that. And I want to just
back up when I heard myself ask about your mom
devoting her life to her children, and then my next
line was she didn't. I mean she was working. That
is not to suggest that you when you were working,
you're not devoting your life to your children. So I
just want to be clear on that, because people, as
(16:55):
you devoted your life to your daughter, as you took
her around and showed her, I had that thought. So
what you said is the thought that many people have.
I had it. I thought I would be a terrible
month because I couldn't do that thing that we think of.
So I'm glad you said it, because a lot of
people have that in their head. Yeah. Yeah, no, that
I did, and God knows, I struggled for twenty some
(17:18):
odd years that I wanted to work, couldn't figure out
what I was doing, but also really enjoyed spending time
with my kids and focusing on their development. It was
a real struggle not wanting to be a stay at
home mom. In fact, I would you'd get the glare
of life from me if I called me that. But
I couldn't figure out what kind of job that I
could do as well as I knew I could do
(17:38):
it while I've got three kids that I'm sort of Yeah, yeah,
it's always I love talking to people about how everyone
enters into this conversation with themselves and their spouse or
their partner and their you know, and how we all
get to the other side. It's so interesting and so challenging.
I remember when I was at Ebony. I worked there
for three years and I commuted for three years. My daughter.
(18:01):
I started at Ebany two thousand and six, right before
Obama was running for president, and my daughter was young.
She was born in two thousand and three, so we
kept so I added half a day extra onto the
nanny's schedule so that I could come and go and
my husband wouldn't have to do everything. I was gone
(18:22):
three or four days a week for three years, either
in Chicago or la or wherever. And one day my
daughters about four. I came home and she says, Mommy,
it's not fair. And she had come to Chicago so
she met Linda Johnson Rice, and she says, you need
to tell missus Rice that it's not fair and you
have to come home. And I was like, oh my god.
(18:43):
I was so devastated. Hour old she was because shortly
after that, every they wanted me to move to Chicago.
We weren't moving to Chicago, so it naturally ended. But
she said, I mean a couple of weeks later, I
came home and she says, oh my god, She's like,
I have that much bad She said, I didn't mean
right now, but it was amazing, Carol, because you do
(19:07):
have to make decisions sometimes that are dramatic pivots when
you have children, and she needed me, and she articulated
it clearly, even though she was really young, so maybe
she was six whatever, but it was it was a
moment when I realized I do need the pivot and
she had to tell me. And thank goodness, the universe listen. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
(19:31):
Well it's a tribute to your parenting up to that
point that she knew how to tell you and that
she could tell you. So I just have to also say,
it's so interesting with partnerships where the mom just really
has to make sure everything is taken care of it
as regardless of how supportive your spouse of partner made me.
(19:55):
Y'all can't see us, but we're shaking our heads, know that.
And who knows what it would have been like if
I had said, you figure it out, but you can't.
As a mom, you can't. You know, those early years,
I don't know any other way. It was my responsibility
to make sure that it was handled enough so that
(20:18):
he could do what he wanted to do. But he
didn't feel it was a burden, and I mean he
was great. Yeah yeah, but I set it up right right. Well.
It reminds me of of one of my favorite vignettes
on this topic. My youngest was an infant and it's
so young that I think it was the first time
that my husband was taking the other older two children
(20:38):
on a weekend trip. It was the first time I
would only have one to look after but a little baby.
And they took the Amtrak train to Washington, d C. Now,
I guess it's still the case that in the train
station that you show your ticket and then you go
down an escalator to the train. So I left the
baby at home with the citter, and I know seeing
the children off and I'm feeling like, oh, you know,
(20:58):
they're all going this is great. So they all have
the little overnight bags and my husband shows the conductor
his ticket and gets on the escalator and two children
look at me like there. I don't know. They're like
what are they four and six? And they've never gotten
on an escalator by themselves with luggage. The ticket takers
look at me like what is supposed to happen here.
(21:20):
It's like, he said, you can take them down. Look
at my husband like, I know you love your children.
You have left them at the top of the escalator.
His perspectives, they'll figure it out. I was like, yes,
or they will go head first down the escalator. It's
just a different perspective, so different, and I mean, you know,
there's so many things that I remember that occurred, Like
(21:40):
I'm so glad I was there. Would the child still
be alive? You know what happens in your brain. There's
a reason that mothers exist. So absolutely. I keep hoping
from my daughter who is she and her friends late twenties,
early thirties. I'm hoping that there's some enlightenment. I'm hoping
that there's a new generation of more shared responsibility, more
(22:02):
really shared responsibility. I don't know. I mean, I just
talked to a friend whose son and his wife just
had a child, and this is a second child. He
took paternity lead. I haven't heard that that often. I
know it exists now, but here's a New York family
and the husband took paternity four months. Wow. And I said,
(22:27):
this is great, and is he really actively involved? And
he absolutely is. So I think it's happening sometimes it's
good good. I'm glad to hear it. We'll be right
back after these messages. Welcome back to the show. So
I love that we veered off in this other direction,
but now I want to call it back and ask
(22:50):
you this. As I mentioned this great quote that you
in your media training business where you help people identify,
stand in and articulate their greatness. Now, the upbringing you've had,
you know, the striving for excellence. You have been taught
the importance of greatness and the importance of standing in it.
So give me a sense. First, how do you do
(23:10):
this with adults? Like, how do you when people come
to you and say, I want to stand in my greatness?
What's the prescription? I do a lot of inner work
with people, so I teach them how to meditate and
how to access that inner voice, because we all have
greatness within, but often we don't realize it. I am
(23:33):
a firm believer in dreams. I've worked with people who
do not believe in it. Oh, I don't drea amount
of time for that, Like okay, well tell me the
things you're thinking about and tell me what makes you excited.
And it's really finding helping them find that pulse point
inside that gives them energy. And then how do you
(23:55):
talk about it? How do you describe it? How do
you describe yourself so that the story lights up within
you and in others? It's really finding your story. And
a lot of people have these disparate parts, but they
don't even think they have a story. And interestingly, even
with because as you shared, I've worked with lots of
(24:17):
entertainers and celebrities. When you have a project and you've
poured everything into the project, you believe that that thing
you created is great, but being able to talk about
that thing is completely different. And very often you will
notice that the most creative people can do their creativity,
(24:38):
but when they start to talk about it, they shrink,
they get shot, they don't make eye contact. Suddenly the
story is gone because they haven't connected their ownership of it,
their birthing of whatever it is to themselves. It's the
separate thing. And so my role is to help them
(24:59):
get ba to kind of a gut connection to who
they are and what they've created and how they want
to be in the world. And it's a fascinating experience
because some of the greatest creative people have a hard
time articulating it until they can they access it on
(25:20):
the inside and learn how to say it. You know,
how do I articulate to you who I am, what
I believe, what I think is important, what's unique about me,
what my creativity means, and why you should care about it.
That's what I teach people that that sounds amazing. So
now I have to move this into the parenting realm
(25:43):
because all that you just said would be all that
we would wish that our children would know how to do.
I mean, and as parents, we would love to be
able to give them the tools to do this. So
I've got to ask you the shoemaker's children's questions, like
you're a bill to do this for celebrities, for people
(26:04):
who are not related to you. It's a gift and
a talent. How does it work with your daughter? Are you?
Did you did you sort of think about parenting her
in the way that this would be something she would
naturally evolve into. Yes. So one incredible tool is meditation,
and she's grown up in a family, in a community
(26:24):
of meditators, so she understands how to from birth how
to access that space, and I think that's helped immeasurably.
I always talk to her like a person rather than
a baby, and I explain things to her as as
my mother says, I'll share things with you on a
(26:46):
need to know basis. And I wondered why I would
learn things even now, Well, you didn't need to know before. Okay,
so I do the same thing. If you need to
know something, the truth about a scenario, about me, about life, whatever,
I'll share it with you at a moment, with perspective
to help you understand. And teaching values I think is
(27:09):
so important from the beginning. I think one mistake parents
make is to think, oh, well, i'll teach my child
that when my child can talk, or you know, well,
when she's older, I'll teach her from day one. Whatever
I believe, we believe, we have said out loud and demonstrated,
(27:30):
and I think it makes a difference that I'll give
you an example of something that occurred recently that she
will probably be mortified that I share this, but it's
a really good example. So she's a freshman in college,
and to protect I won't say the full detail, but
something occurred with her roommate, and her roommate was completely
freaked out and needed help, and it was a very
(27:52):
confidential situation. She called Carrie, can you please help me?
And they're not really friends or roommates, and Carrie said, okay,
I'll help you. And then Carrie didn't know what to
do because it was something she didn't understand. So she
called me, Mommy, this is happening. I'm not quite sure
where to do, but she needs my help. Can you
walk with me on the phone to the store to
(28:13):
help handle this thing? So I talked with her through
a scenario that required her to be grown up. Her
friend was losing it, and she kept her calm, understood
that I could support her, and in the end, also
I reminded her, now, this is confidential, so you are
not to talk to your friends about it. After she says,
(28:34):
of course, now, mommy, the roommate's friends called her because
everybody's just somewhere else to thank her for caring for
their friend who was completely losing it and didn't know
what to do for me. That's the best example ever.
First of all, she knew I could still help her,
not judge. She understood she didn't have all the tools
(28:57):
as a nineteen year old to manage a tough situation,
but she knew she had enough inner strength to be okay,
and she knew I had her back, and she kept
it confidential. I can't ask for anything else. Total win,
I mean, all across the board. Yeah, no, absolutely, I
mean I've talked about this with other guests. The value
(29:19):
teaching your children values is it's so important, and it is.
You know, there's an expression, character is what we do
when no one's looking. And from day one, you're demonstrating
to your children how to be, how to act, and
as parents, it's really important to remember that, to understand that,
and to impart our value system to them as early
(29:40):
as we possibly can. Absolutely, that is the example you
just gave is a beautiful one of how it shows
up when it needs to, and you are it's so
funny how our children impress us. So, I mean they
shouldn't because we've actually poured a bunch of the stuff
into them. But it's very impressive to see when you
see things stick and you see how they work. The
fact that she felt comfortable calling you and you properly
(30:03):
didn't castigate her, I mean, she was trying to do
the right thing. There's so many good lessons of that story.
And so I would heartily agree that when the principle
take aways to talk to your children a lot, a lot.
There has to be a point at which they know
that your bond is above whatever the situation is, and
it has to be able. They have to be able
to ride and judge them. So like I could talk
(30:25):
to my mother, I absolutely could not talk to my father.
My father was a judge and he judged us all
the time. I wouldn't tell him anything, and I'm the
same here. Definitely, she can talk to me. My husband
is not so much like my father, but he's still
a man, and she doesn't talk to him about as
many things. But you know another thing, Carol is over
(30:47):
time and to this point of talking to them a lot,
there are refinements to lessons. So I'll give you one
other example. I think it was last summer, maybe the
summer before before college, and we were in the Hampton's
where we often go in the summer, and there was
a girl who was by herself too. So these two
(31:07):
teenagers and parents put them together, and my daughter was
like something. She looked at her Instagram and didn't like it.
And I don't know, mommy, but I'll go because you're
you all are asking me too. They got into a
scenario because of this other girl that could have been dangerous.
She decided, once they got far enough away from families,
(31:30):
that she was going to try to talk to men
at stop signs in cars literally and so the lesson
had been my daughter learned you never leave a friend.
And so she's like, what am I She told me later,
what am I going to do? Because this girl was
going to get in the car with this man, and
she's like, I'm not getting in the car. So what
(31:50):
she said is she said to her, don't do that.
This is dangerous. I'm not getting in with you. You
shouldn't get in either. Somehow, care age resolve got that
girl to not get into the car. She called me,
I came and picked them up. She didn't hang out
with her anymore. She was kind to her, but firm.
(32:11):
But what happened in the retelling of this, She said,
you taught me never to leave anybody behind, but you
also taught me don't get it into the car with strangers.
And obviously this was unsafe, she said, So in the
moment I had to make a decision. I said, Well,
that's the point. I don't want you to blindly follow
(32:32):
my rules. They are guidelines for life, but in the moment,
you have to use your brain. And so there's another
example of parenting in action and the child stepping into
her own power, into her own greatness and making a
choice that was safe for her and the other person.
(32:54):
Another great example. It reminds me of what I always
say about teaching my children values. I grew up in
New York City, New York City. I grew up in
New York City, so there's a lot here, so much.
I mean, I advocate for raising your child in a
city where a lot of things happen. Because you expose them,
you have great opportunities to teach them a lot about
things that do things not to do. So what I
(33:16):
would say to all of them, and the way that
I interacted with them when they were young, is I
wanted each of them this. This actually became more in
high school. They would hear this. I wanted all of
them to be able to have a sentence running in
their head when they were away from me, if they
were out with their friends, my mother would kill me
if and whatever they were about to do that they
knew it was kind of sketchy. I want. I wanted
(33:37):
them to be able to put that in that sense
and see if it worked. And I would say to them,
I want you to do that, not because one percent
of the time I think you're going to not do
that thing. I mean because you're going to do, You're
going to make. Life is filled with making decisions and
bearing the consequences of them. But I just want you
(33:58):
to before you do that, just understand where I would
be on this and the measure of risk you are taking.
I mean, I want you to be safe. I also
want you to have your own life, but just know
if you're doing something I like that, if you think
your mother would kill you, think a whole lot before
you do it, and then be really careful. So so
(34:18):
fortunately they all managed to get through without Nobody ever
has told me that they have used that, but they've
also been in I've heard about situations where I'm sure
that was going through their head at the time. Unfortunately
it all worked out. But that's that's sort of the value.
It's so important. I love that. Yeah, I wanted them
to know that. There were some things. I wanted to
(34:40):
be in their head for some things. But but to
your point, they've got to make the ultimate decision. They do.
But look, like I said, my father's been gone. I
think it's about twenty two years. He's in my head
every day. I hear him, I hear the lessons. I mean,
they're they're still there, and that's what we need to know.
Those lessons are still and you know, another thing, my
(35:02):
husband has said, don't put chemicals in your body, you know,
because we are in a drug culture now, and he's like,
don't put anything that's a chemical in your body. And
so my daughter, now she's in college, people are doing
all kinds of things, and she said, I hear daddy's
saying that. And one of her not necessarily friend, but
a person in her friend group decided to use something
(35:26):
that's a chemical kind of lost her mind. And so
the first thing Carrie did was to go rescue her.
No judgment, but she said, you can't put me in
this situation. And then she said, after the second time,
she said, I'm not coming again, which means, if you
are in a space of danger and you're doing something
that you shouldn't be doing, my next way of helping
(35:47):
you is to call the police because you need help.
I was so proud of her, like, first of all,
I'm so glad you didn't try that because it would
be really bad for you. And you know enough to
know that, because look, I tried all kinds of things
when I was a kid. She didn't, oh good, and
she doesn't want to be around it. So she made
(36:09):
it to me. That's such a sign of strength, an
inner strength, and her point of I don't want you
to be in danger. So if you call me the
third time, my call is to the police, not for
you to be penalized, but for you to be saved
from whatever other outer influencer might be. That's a kind
(36:31):
of grown up decision that's really responsible. I have to
ask you, a girl. You know, we just continue, but
I have one more topic that I want to switch
to quickly. But if you reminded me when you said
your father, you know, was still in your head, he
was gave you a lot of advice. And that is
a wonderful segue to your work as an advice columnist. Yeah,
(36:52):
I mean, I marvel at this. You you are I
don't want to call it the dear Abbey, but you
are the person that people write the nationally syndicated column
and people write to you their problems. So I want
to know how two things. First of all, just how
you approach helping people with their problems. And secondly, is
this I roll inducing for your daughter that you are
(37:13):
the advisor to the world or does she think agree
that you are the best advisor in the world, and
brings all her friends to you to ask for your advice.
She does not bring her friends to me to ask
for advice. Absolutely not. I think she probably doesn't think
about it that much, you know, because I do a
lot of things. That's one of the things that I do.
(37:33):
I've been writing this column, Sense and Sensitivity for as
long as she's been alive. I think it's for many
many years. How do I approach it? It's called sense
and sensitivity, and so the ideas that it's practical and sensitive. Also,
I don't profess to know everything, so I do research
when the questions require research, or you know, a lifeline
(37:57):
in one way or another. People want to be validated.
People want to understand how to navigate something that's really uncomfortable.
And what I've discovered, and I learned this first when
I was traveling around with my first book, Jumping the Broom,
and people were asking me all these questions beyond weddings
because they wanted help from somebody they trusted and for
(38:21):
whatever reason, where they grew up, whatever their environment was,
they didn't know. And I realized that people wanted a
lifeline that they trusted. And the irony of it, Carol,
is that I was so mad about all these rules
when I was growing up, and I earn a living
teaching them. I mean, I was like enough with the rules,
and here I am teaching the rules and teaching just
(38:41):
how to live and navigate your life with grace and integrity,
which is what my parents. Those were the values. So
approach is to infuse grace and integrity into everything. Sometimes
it's cold water in the face. Hello, are you hearing yourself?
This does not make sense. If it doesn't make sense,
(39:03):
it's not going to make sense later. And how can
you think about something differently in order to have the
potential for a different result? And then a lot of
questions these days are kind of cultural awkward, cultural intersections
because we are from everywhere. You know, our world is
(39:25):
not as uniform as it used to be. That there
are a lot of people who in this moment of diversity,
equity and inclusion awareness, a lot of people are making
efforts and they don't know what to do. How can
I look at you and understand you when you're so
different from me, when you eat differently, you dress differently,
(39:45):
you think differently, And how can I react to you
in a way that is respectful? When I grew up
in this way, I get a lot of questions like that,
which are I like those because they works me to
think and they force others to agree to push past
(40:07):
whatever their comfort zone is. Well, people don't really like
to do that, and in tough times they often don't
do it. So when the economy shrinks, when times are
hard for people, they often dig in their heels in
whatever way they believe in. Then we have a lot
of friction. And so my recommendation to people when they
start feeling contracted is to stop, take a breath, and
(40:30):
look again. How can you soften your gaze and consider
the other person's perspective because if you don't, it's just
going to be a fight. Yeah, I mean such every
all roads lead to parenting for me. Oh yeah, Lee,
in this conversation they do. And so I mean what
you just said the really valuable, valuable perspective. So that's
(40:55):
that's great to hear. So, Harriet, I literally I have
so many more questions for you, but I'm going to
stop our conversation now. We'll have to have another one
and make you play the GCP lightning round. Okay, okay,
let's do it. Or questions, and here they go. First,
your favorite poem or saying a favorite doesn't have to
be one. I'll take from my father. His favorite poem
(41:19):
is it's from a man named Edgar a guest. I'd
rather see a poem than read one any day. I
think that's how it says. And it's basically and he
would recite the poem, but it's how do you live?
Not what do you say? I'd rather see a poem
than read one any day. And that's a new one.
(41:42):
That's great. Name two favorite children's books, and they can
be books that you grew up with or books that
your daughter love that you would read to her or
with her two favorite children's that's a tough one. That
was tough for me, nursery rhymes and children's books because
I had my daughter at forty two. I'm gonna say,
(42:04):
I don't you know good Night Moon. My daughter love
good Night Moon. So that was a good one. And
I you know what was fun as the cat in
the Hat. But honestly, I don't think I paid that
much attention to the book. Good question. I'm not usually stumped.
That's a good one. Okay, two questions about momhood. First,
(42:27):
a mom moment that you'd love to do over, And
by that I mean it wasn't I do not mean
that it was so great you want to do it again.
I mean one that you would love to do over
in a different way, and nothing too deep now, So
this is a fun one. I think Carrie was three
or four. She was really young, and I would host
(42:49):
huge parties for her, So I love that part. This
party was at a jim but I'm a fashion girl.
I always dressed her in the most fabulous fashion and
put her in what my niece called like a lady
who goes to church outfit. It was a fabulous, like
(43:09):
Chanel looking ensemble at a gym, and my niece is like, seriously,
on Harry, what is she going to do in this?
So she had it on. All the other kids have
one jeans and sweats and you know they're they're a
little you know, sneaker socks, and she has on lovely
(43:30):
tights and a tweed skirt and jacket. And poor baby
couldn't say anything because I dressed her and it was ridiculous.
I would do over her outfit. That's a good one,
and so finally a moment when you knew you nailed
(43:51):
it as a mom. You've described a few, already described
a few. I love the fact that this is the
first year of college for my daughter, so it's really new.
She wants to spend time with me, and she wants
to be independent. So here's an example. I took her
to Paris for her graduation president and we planned it
(44:13):
for a few years. She studied French for a long time.
We're doing all the things we're doing. But the day
before we left, she learned that ten of her friends
were going to be in Paris at the same time.
So now this mother daughter trip was being hijacked. And
what ended up happening is the days were hours. We
would come home after dinner at around ten, and she
(44:37):
would change her clothes and get ready to go out
in Paris with her friends, returning at three and three
thirty in the morning, and I, of course was awake.
She stayed in touch with me. This was our agreement.
Let me know when you get there, let me know
when you're heading home. And so we created this new
(44:59):
t transitional experience. We had our time, she had her time.
We stayed in touch when I was her age, I
was out till three o'clock in the morning, but I
wasn't calling my mother. We didn't have cell phones, but
I probably wouldn't have called her anyway, And so it's
it's good there's respect and appropriate distance at this stage
(45:21):
in our lives. So it's good. Yeah. No, that's a
that's a nailed it. That's a long moment. So those
are great, great answers, And thank you so much. Happen
so much fun, Thank you so much, thank you. I
hope everyone listening enjoyed this conversation and that you'll come
back for more. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you
(45:44):
listen to podcasts and tell your friends. For more parenting
info and advice, please check out the Ground Control Parenting
blog at ground control Parenting dot com. You can also
find us on Instagram and Facebook at ground Control Parenting
and on LinkedIn under Carol Sutton Lewis. The Ground Control
Parenting with Carol Sutton Lewis podcast is a part of
(46:04):
the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership with iHeartMedia. Until
the next time, take care and thanks for listening.
Hello, and welcome to Ground Control Parenting, a blog and
now a podcast creative for parents raising black and brown children.
I'm the creator and your host, Carol Sutton Lewis. In
this podcast series, I talk with some really interesting people
about the job and the joy of parenting. Today, I
am so happy to have the fabulous Harriet Cole join
me for today's conversation. Harriet is a true renaissance woman.
(00:28):
I'll only list a few of her many talents. She's
an author, a nationally syndicated advice calumnist, a motivational speaker,
and a multimedia producer. She was an editor at Essence Magazine.
She's launched several magazines, including Savoy and Uptown. She led
the redesign of Evny magazine and she was its editor
in chief. She's provided media training and presentation training for
(00:50):
a host of clients, including celebrities and corporate leaders. She
hosts a weekly radio show, Dream Leapers, and she's been
hosting that since twenty sixteen, and she now also hosts
a weekly podcast, Dream Leaper's Inspiration, where she and her
guests explore ways to inspire listeners to live their best lives.
As she explains on her website. Her mission is to
(01:10):
help people identify, stand in and articulate their greatness. I
love that Harriet is a proud graduate of Howard University.
She and her husband, George Hincy, have a daughter, Carrie,
who will be twenty this year. Welcome to Ground Control Parenting, Harriet.
I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much, Carol,
so excited to have you here. Your mission of helping
(01:31):
people find confidence and your work on presentation training really
resonates with me because here on Ground Control Parenting, we're
all about raising confident, thriving children, and I'm sure we'll
be able to learn valuable lessons from the work you
do and from your own parenting philosophies. So let's get started,
all right. So I always like to start by asking
my guests how they were parented, and in this instance,
I know that that really impacts what you do and
(01:54):
probably also the way you parents. So tell me a
little bit about how you grew up, where you grew up,
and what your parents expectatians were. I'm from Baltimore, the
middle of three girls. My father was the youngest of
five children, single parent household. He became a judge, a lawyer,
(02:15):
and then a judge. He was the first black state
senator in Maryland and later the first black judge on
the Maryland Court of Appeals. That's important for a lot
of reasons. But we grew up in a strict household
where excellence was the only option. My mother dars. My
father's name is Harry Cole. I'm named for him. Ah.
My mother's Darris Cole. She's Darris Freeland Cole. She grew
(02:39):
up the youngest of two children, and she became a teacher.
They were the first generation professionals and college educated, which
is very common in the black community. They will say
they grew up poor but didn't know it. You know.
My grandmother, Carrie, for whom my daughter is named, was
(03:01):
a domestic worker who worked until she was ninety three
when we made her stop working. She lived to be
a hundred and one, and she was independence and grace
and the way we grew up literally excellence being the
only option. That's what my father said, That's how they lived.
(03:22):
We understood that you had to strive to be your
absolute best at all times. There wasn't like downtime for misbehaving.
So the table was set no matter what we ate
if if you had a hot dog, there was still
a knife, fork and spoon and a napkin, and they
had to be washed even if you didn't use them.
(03:45):
And I remember thinking, why why we could not have
the ketchup bottles and mustard and whatever condiments could not
be in their advertising containers on the table because my
father said there would be no advertisements during a meal. Ah,
so it had to be put into a neutral like
(04:06):
whatever the container was that would go on a table
glass or some china, whatever it might be, because there
was no advertising at the table. I'm going to stop
you right there. First of all, I didn't know this.
We'd shared several backgrounds. My mother was a teacher, and
my father was a judge. Also he was a lawyer
and then a judge. Now I'm really curious about the
(04:27):
and I want to talk to you more about this,
but I'm really curious about the expectations of not only
of excellence, but of manners and etiquette and presentation because
like your father certainly, and my mother was first generation
college and she too was very focused on manners and
table settings. I know that that was aspirational for her.
(04:50):
That she didn't grow up with that I mean, she
grew up in a family where they set the table,
but she took it to another level. And I know
that that was part of her aspiration. She wanted to
go to college, She wanted to have a proper she
wanted to know how to do things properly. So you
mentioned your father was one of five in a single
parent home. Do you think he was raised that way
(05:11):
or do you think similarly he sort of aspired to
this life that included this reason. I think he was
raised that way, and I know my mother was, even
though they didn't grow up like that. So in my
mother's case, I'll start with her. Because my grandmother was
a domestic worker. She worked for wealthy, very wealthy people
in Baltimore, primarily Jewish families. Baltimore is a large Jewish
(05:34):
population among the people who she took care of with
the Cone sisters who have a wing in the Maryland
Museum of Art, and they traveled all over the world
and brought like they were friends with Picasso. My grandmother
had a Picasso because she met him. I love that
my grandmother was exposed to everything, and she brought and
(05:56):
they loved her, so they gave her everything. So they
had fine china, and actually one of the practices that
I learned that was from not just my grandmother but
her friends and family. They understood the value of sterling
silver as flatwear, and so they, even though they had
very little money, they would buy for wedding presents and
(06:20):
anniversary presents one sterling silver spoon, one fork, one knife,
so over the course of a lifetime, they and their
loved ones would have a full service of twelve because
they understood they cared about that. So my grandmother kind
of showed her children, my uncle and my mother how
(06:42):
to live a very fine life with very little money.
My father's mother, I don't know how she knew it,
because she was very sterned. I didn't talk to her
as much and she didn't live as long. But their
house was immaculate. They had linen, napki and I don't
know if it was silver, but the table was set
(07:03):
and you had to eat a particular way, So don't
I don't know why they knew it. I know why
my grandmother did, and the way we grew up, my
sisters and I because so this is another part about Baltimore,
which which I think is important to know Baltimore, just
south of the Mason Dixon line, had a thriving black
(07:23):
middle class early, so there was a black elite, so
to speak. Early many social clubs, of course, sororities and fraternities,
but others, and my parents' generation was the first generation
to populate that group. So they grew up and as
(07:44):
did we as their kids, going to all of the
black tie events. My mother had a black tie closet literally,
and I walk in closet that was black tie once
I was her black tie. The other side was all
the custom suits that my father had made from the
time he became an jerney until he retired in order,
and so we lived like this black tie life. That
(08:08):
was the black community. The doctors, the lawyers, the educators,
the business owners. The neighborhood we grew up in became
that because once my parents and the doctor next door
moved in, there was white flight, and so it was
all black professionals and the other pieces. Because my father
was such a prominent member of society, we were the
(08:31):
cold girls, and there was an expectation. You speak about expectations,
there was an expectation that we walked, talked and lived
a particular way and there wasn't even a thought that
you wouldn't live up to the expectation of honoring your
family by being proper kind, down to earth girls and
(08:56):
then young women. That was it. That was what was
expected and we had to live like that. Wow. So
let me ask you about your father's mantra, which was
excellence was the only option. Now in today's world. I mean,
that is certainly admirable. Excellence is something that you really
want to shoot for his parents, we want our children
(09:18):
to strive for excellence, But it being the only option,
it was hard. It was so hard. What exactly did
that mean though? I mean did it mean sort of
just do your best and he could see that you
were doing your best so there was no issue. Or
did it mean you had to come home with great
grades or he was I will give you an example, Carol.
I think I was in about the seventh or eighth
(09:40):
grade and background. My father was a class valedictorian always.
He graduated from Morgan. It wasn't even at the graduation
because he had enlisted in the army for World War Two,
but he was the valedictorian. So you know, okay, I'm
supposed to be the Valedictori. I was the one who
drank that kool aid the most. Well, my younger sister
probably too. But anyway, I came home one day with
(10:02):
a ninety eight on a test. I was so proud.
It was a really difficult class I don't know what
it was, and presented it to my father and very
sternly he looked at me and said, where are the
other two points? I was devastated. I want to tell
you I was mad for about twenty years. I've never forgotten. Stephanie,
my younger sister, said it was a ninety five for her.
(10:22):
He did the same. I was so mad at him,
But in processing, you know, anger at your parents and
all the years that you go through, and then you
get to the other side. I realized his point was
if you got to ninety eight, why would you leave
anything on the table. If you can get to ninety eight,
you can get to a hundred. So his thing was
(10:44):
strived for the best. The way he delivered it was
as a judge does. It was not nice at all,
and I promised that I wouldn't do that to my daughter.
Now if you ask her today, I don't know if
I have been six assiful. I didn't say I was
nicer than I think he was, but she got me.
(11:08):
I wasn't valedictorian, but I was close. I was as
close as I could get. I was a straight a student.
She used too, for the most part. Even though I
have tried to be softer with the beliefs, they're ingrained
in me, and therefore they're ingrained in her. So I
know a little bit about your sisters, and they both
(11:28):
have very impressive careers, and so that worked. I mean,
his approach worked. I'll have to say that that sort
of in There are certain families, mine included, where it
doesn't always work when you have the I mean, my
father was similarly stern and had great expectations, and it
worked for some of us. It didn't work for all
of us. But but it's good. I mean, it is
(11:50):
a good and affirming thing. If three different sisters, three
different personalities, everybody can come away with a lesson relatively unscathed.
It's you know. So my older sister has worked. First
she was a television news anchor, and then she moved
to la with her husband and changed her career. She
was at Disney for many years, working in global HR
(12:11):
and now she runs HR for an international toy company.
My younger sister is the highest ranking black female executive
in all of Lockheed Martin. She runs a seventeen billion
dollar business. So I called myself, you know, like the slacker,
(12:31):
and I sometimes feel like that. You're like, wow, look
at my sisters, And then I realized we're all overachievers. Absolutely,
So I think part of the secret formula, though, must
come from your mother, who was a kindergarten teacher. And
there's a quote somewhere that I've seen that says that
she devoted her life to her children, no question. And
(12:53):
tell me how did that manifest itself? I mean, how
she worked, she was a teacher, How did you feel
her emotion Well, she worked until my younger sister was born,
so for most of our lives she didn't work. And
I've learned later this was a decision that she and
my father made that she would stay home and take
(13:13):
care of the children. There were times when we were
mad because we thought that he was too strict and controlling,
and you know all the things that children think. But
I mean, my mother's ninety three years old now, and
she still has his retirement for life. I mean he's
still taking care of her. He's been gone for twenty
something years. It's amazing. But so she was home after
(13:37):
nineteen sixty five when my sister Stephanie was born and
she took us to school. She was involved in the PTA.
And my mother is beauty, light love. I mean that's
she is. That When my mother would come to visit
me at Howard. This is a true story. That was
when the boys came, they would follow my mother around.
(14:01):
I was like, I have male friends when my mother's
here because she literally is physically beautiful, but she emanates love.
And that's what she taught us. That you beauty is
as beauty does. That was one of her sayings. She
believes in physical beauty and you know, is a girly
girl in some ways, but she's incredibly strong. And something
(14:23):
she did because my father wanted all of his daughters
to stay at home, live at home when we went
to college, so that he could take care of us
and protect us. I guess please. My first year I
went to a local school where my older sister gone Towson.
I hated it. I also hated being under her and
my mother and I did the great escape. I got
(14:46):
to Howard because I was a straight as student, I
could get in. She took me there, got me in,
got me an apartment because it was too late to
be in the dorm. And then my father said, well,
I'm not paying for that, because she shouldn't be leaving.
My mother came out of retirement. She hadn't worked for
fifteen years, and she started working for Random House selling
books so that she would be able to pay for
(15:09):
my college education. Wow, and how what kind of power
is that? Yeah? Yeah, no that yeah yeah no. Mom
may have been okay, sort of following, towing the line
until she didn't want to, well, until it was necessary.
I love this life. I lived this life. She was
you know, the black society ladies so called, but she
(15:32):
was fear. She is fierce, and her children came first.
And for me, I didn't know. I wasn't even sure
I wanted to have children because I knew I didn't
have the personality to stay at home. I didn't think
I could do for my child what my mother had
done for me and my sisters. And so I had
(15:52):
my daughter late at forty two is when I had
my daughter. I've been married for ten years and when
Finally it was like, Okay, maybe this can be a
good thing. I took her everywhere. I said, if I'm
not going to stop working, I am going to show
her what is possible for a woman. I was pregnant
and I was taking a thirteen episode TV series. I
(16:14):
never told them I was pregnant. Thank god I carried small.
I was on a book tour with her, her in
one arm, signing books in the other. She went everywhere
with me until she was in school and continue so
she could see it if I wasn't going to be
at home, she could see a woman can do anything.
(16:34):
And I think she sees that. You know that. I'm
so glad you said that. And I want to just
back up when I heard myself ask about your mom
devoting her life to her children, and then my next
line was she didn't. I mean she was working. That
is not to suggest that you when you were working,
you're not devoting your life to your children. So I
just want to be clear on that, because people, as
(16:55):
you devoted your life to your daughter, as you took
her around and showed her, I had that thought. So
what you said is the thought that many people have.
I had it. I thought I would be a terrible
month because I couldn't do that thing that we think of.
So I'm glad you said it, because a lot of
people have that in their head. Yeah. Yeah, no, that
I did, and God knows, I struggled for twenty some
(17:18):
odd years that I wanted to work, couldn't figure out
what I was doing, but also really enjoyed spending time
with my kids and focusing on their development. It was
a real struggle not wanting to be a stay at
home mom. In fact, I would you'd get the glare
of life from me if I called me that. But
I couldn't figure out what kind of job that I
could do as well as I knew I could do
(17:38):
it while I've got three kids that I'm sort of Yeah, yeah,
it's always I love talking to people about how everyone
enters into this conversation with themselves and their spouse or
their partner and their you know, and how we all
get to the other side. It's so interesting and so challenging.
I remember when I was at Ebony. I worked there
for three years and I commuted for three years. My daughter.
(18:01):
I started at Ebany two thousand and six, right before
Obama was running for president, and my daughter was young.
She was born in two thousand and three, so we
kept so I added half a day extra onto the
nanny's schedule so that I could come and go and
my husband wouldn't have to do everything. I was gone
(18:22):
three or four days a week for three years, either
in Chicago or la or wherever. And one day my
daughters about four. I came home and she says, Mommy,
it's not fair. And she had come to Chicago so
she met Linda Johnson Rice, and she says, you need
to tell missus Rice that it's not fair and you
have to come home. And I was like, oh my god.
(18:43):
I was so devastated. Hour old she was because shortly
after that, every they wanted me to move to Chicago.
We weren't moving to Chicago, so it naturally ended. But
she said, I mean a couple of weeks later, I
came home and she says, oh my god, She's like,
I have that much bad She said, I didn't mean
right now, but it was amazing, Carol, because you do
(19:07):
have to make decisions sometimes that are dramatic pivots when
you have children, and she needed me, and she articulated
it clearly, even though she was really young, so maybe
she was six whatever, but it was it was a
moment when I realized I do need the pivot and
she had to tell me. And thank goodness, the universe listen. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
(19:31):
Well it's a tribute to your parenting up to that
point that she knew how to tell you and that
she could tell you. So I just have to also say,
it's so interesting with partnerships where the mom just really
has to make sure everything is taken care of it
as regardless of how supportive your spouse of partner made me.
(19:55):
Y'all can't see us, but we're shaking our heads, know that.
And who knows what it would have been like if
I had said, you figure it out, but you can't.
As a mom, you can't. You know, those early years,
I don't know any other way. It was my responsibility
to make sure that it was handled enough so that
(20:18):
he could do what he wanted to do. But he
didn't feel it was a burden, and I mean he
was great. Yeah yeah, but I set it up right right. Well.
It reminds me of of one of my favorite vignettes
on this topic. My youngest was an infant and it's
so young that I think it was the first time
that my husband was taking the other older two children
(20:38):
on a weekend trip. It was the first time I
would only have one to look after but a little baby.
And they took the Amtrak train to Washington, d C. Now,
I guess it's still the case that in the train
station that you show your ticket and then you go
down an escalator to the train. So I left the
baby at home with the citter, and I know seeing
the children off and I'm feeling like, oh, you know,
(20:58):
they're all going this is great. So they all have
the little overnight bags and my husband shows the conductor
his ticket and gets on the escalator and two children
look at me like there. I don't know. They're like
what are they four and six? And they've never gotten
on an escalator by themselves with luggage. The ticket takers
look at me like what is supposed to happen here.
(21:20):
It's like, he said, you can take them down. Look
at my husband like, I know you love your children.
You have left them at the top of the escalator.
His perspectives, they'll figure it out. I was like, yes,
or they will go head first down the escalator. It's
just a different perspective, so different, and I mean, you know,
there's so many things that I remember that occurred, Like
(21:40):
I'm so glad I was there. Would the child still
be alive? You know what happens in your brain. There's
a reason that mothers exist. So absolutely. I keep hoping
from my daughter who is she and her friends late twenties,
early thirties. I'm hoping that there's some enlightenment. I'm hoping
that there's a new generation of more shared responsibility, more
(22:02):
really shared responsibility. I don't know. I mean, I just
talked to a friend whose son and his wife just
had a child, and this is a second child. He
took paternity lead. I haven't heard that that often. I
know it exists now, but here's a New York family
and the husband took paternity four months. Wow. And I said,
(22:27):
this is great, and is he really actively involved? And
he absolutely is. So I think it's happening sometimes it's
good good. I'm glad to hear it. We'll be right
back after these messages. Welcome back to the show. So
I love that we veered off in this other direction,
but now I want to call it back and ask
(22:50):
you this. As I mentioned this great quote that you
in your media training business where you help people identify,
stand in and articulate their greatness. Now, the upbringing you've had,
you know, the striving for excellence. You have been taught
the importance of greatness and the importance of standing in it.
So give me a sense. First, how do you do
(23:10):
this with adults? Like, how do you when people come
to you and say, I want to stand in my greatness?
What's the prescription? I do a lot of inner work
with people, so I teach them how to meditate and
how to access that inner voice, because we all have
greatness within, but often we don't realize it. I am
(23:33):
a firm believer in dreams. I've worked with people who
do not believe in it. Oh, I don't drea amount
of time for that, Like okay, well tell me the
things you're thinking about and tell me what makes you excited.
And it's really finding helping them find that pulse point
inside that gives them energy. And then how do you
(23:55):
talk about it? How do you describe it? How do
you describe yourself so that the story lights up within
you and in others? It's really finding your story. And
a lot of people have these disparate parts, but they
don't even think they have a story. And interestingly, even
with because as you shared, I've worked with lots of
(24:17):
entertainers and celebrities. When you have a project and you've
poured everything into the project, you believe that that thing
you created is great, but being able to talk about
that thing is completely different. And very often you will
notice that the most creative people can do their creativity,
(24:38):
but when they start to talk about it, they shrink,
they get shot, they don't make eye contact. Suddenly the
story is gone because they haven't connected their ownership of it,
their birthing of whatever it is to themselves. It's the
separate thing. And so my role is to help them
(24:59):
get ba to kind of a gut connection to who
they are and what they've created and how they want
to be in the world. And it's a fascinating experience
because some of the greatest creative people have a hard
time articulating it until they can they access it on
(25:20):
the inside and learn how to say it. You know,
how do I articulate to you who I am, what
I believe, what I think is important, what's unique about me,
what my creativity means, and why you should care about it.
That's what I teach people that that sounds amazing. So
now I have to move this into the parenting realm
(25:43):
because all that you just said would be all that
we would wish that our children would know how to do.
I mean, and as parents, we would love to be
able to give them the tools to do this. So
I've got to ask you the shoemaker's children's questions, like
you're a bill to do this for celebrities, for people
(26:04):
who are not related to you. It's a gift and
a talent. How does it work with your daughter? Are you?
Did you did you sort of think about parenting her
in the way that this would be something she would
naturally evolve into. Yes. So one incredible tool is meditation,
and she's grown up in a family, in a community
(26:24):
of meditators, so she understands how to from birth how
to access that space, and I think that's helped immeasurably.
I always talk to her like a person rather than
a baby, and I explain things to her as as
my mother says, I'll share things with you on a
(26:46):
need to know basis. And I wondered why I would
learn things even now, Well, you didn't need to know before. Okay,
so I do the same thing. If you need to
know something, the truth about a scenario, about me, about life, whatever,
I'll share it with you at a moment, with perspective
to help you understand. And teaching values I think is
(27:09):
so important from the beginning. I think one mistake parents
make is to think, oh, well, i'll teach my child
that when my child can talk, or you know, well,
when she's older, I'll teach her from day one. Whatever
I believe, we believe, we have said out loud and demonstrated,
(27:30):
and I think it makes a difference that I'll give
you an example of something that occurred recently that she
will probably be mortified that I share this, but it's
a really good example. So she's a freshman in college,
and to protect I won't say the full detail, but
something occurred with her roommate, and her roommate was completely
freaked out and needed help, and it was a very
(27:52):
confidential situation. She called Carrie, can you please help me?
And they're not really friends or roommates, and Carrie said, okay,
I'll help you. And then Carrie didn't know what to
do because it was something she didn't understand. So she
called me, Mommy, this is happening. I'm not quite sure
where to do, but she needs my help. Can you
walk with me on the phone to the store to
(28:13):
help handle this thing? So I talked with her through
a scenario that required her to be grown up. Her
friend was losing it, and she kept her calm, understood
that I could support her, and in the end, also
I reminded her, now, this is confidential, so you are
not to talk to your friends about it. After she says,
(28:34):
of course, now, mommy, the roommate's friends called her because
everybody's just somewhere else to thank her for caring for
their friend who was completely losing it and didn't know
what to do for me. That's the best example ever.
First of all, she knew I could still help her,
not judge. She understood she didn't have all the tools
(28:57):
as a nineteen year old to manage a tough situation,
but she knew she had enough inner strength to be okay,
and she knew I had her back, and she kept
it confidential. I can't ask for anything else. Total win,
I mean, all across the board. Yeah, no, absolutely, I
mean I've talked about this with other guests. The value
(29:19):
teaching your children values is it's so important, and it is.
You know, there's an expression, character is what we do
when no one's looking. And from day one, you're demonstrating
to your children how to be, how to act, and
as parents, it's really important to remember that, to understand that,
and to impart our value system to them as early
(29:40):
as we possibly can. Absolutely, that is the example you
just gave is a beautiful one of how it shows
up when it needs to, and you are it's so
funny how our children impress us. So, I mean they
shouldn't because we've actually poured a bunch of the stuff
into them. But it's very impressive to see when you
see things stick and you see how they work. The
fact that she felt comfortable calling you and you properly
(30:03):
didn't castigate her, I mean, she was trying to do
the right thing. There's so many good lessons of that story.
And so I would heartily agree that when the principle
take aways to talk to your children a lot, a lot.
There has to be a point at which they know
that your bond is above whatever the situation is, and
it has to be able. They have to be able
to ride and judge them. So like I could talk
(30:25):
to my mother, I absolutely could not talk to my father.
My father was a judge and he judged us all
the time. I wouldn't tell him anything, and I'm the
same here. Definitely, she can talk to me. My husband
is not so much like my father, but he's still
a man, and she doesn't talk to him about as
many things. But you know another thing, Carol is over
(30:47):
time and to this point of talking to them a lot,
there are refinements to lessons. So I'll give you one
other example. I think it was last summer, maybe the
summer before before college, and we were in the Hampton's
where we often go in the summer, and there was
a girl who was by herself too. So these two
(31:07):
teenagers and parents put them together, and my daughter was
like something. She looked at her Instagram and didn't like it.
And I don't know, mommy, but I'll go because you're
you all are asking me too. They got into a
scenario because of this other girl that could have been dangerous.
She decided, once they got far enough away from families,
(31:30):
that she was going to try to talk to men
at stop signs in cars literally and so the lesson
had been my daughter learned you never leave a friend.
And so she's like, what am I She told me later,
what am I going to do? Because this girl was
going to get in the car with this man, and
she's like, I'm not getting in the car. So what
(31:50):
she said is she said to her, don't do that.
This is dangerous. I'm not getting in with you. You
shouldn't get in either. Somehow, care age resolve got that
girl to not get into the car. She called me,
I came and picked them up. She didn't hang out
with her anymore. She was kind to her, but firm.
(32:11):
But what happened in the retelling of this, She said,
you taught me never to leave anybody behind, but you
also taught me don't get it into the car with strangers.
And obviously this was unsafe, she said, So in the
moment I had to make a decision. I said, Well,
that's the point. I don't want you to blindly follow
(32:32):
my rules. They are guidelines for life, but in the moment,
you have to use your brain. And so there's another
example of parenting in action and the child stepping into
her own power, into her own greatness and making a
choice that was safe for her and the other person.
(32:54):
Another great example. It reminds me of what I always
say about teaching my children values. I grew up in
New York City, New York City. I grew up in
New York City, so there's a lot here, so much.
I mean, I advocate for raising your child in a
city where a lot of things happen. Because you expose them,
you have great opportunities to teach them a lot about
things that do things not to do. So what I
(33:16):
would say to all of them, and the way that
I interacted with them when they were young, is I
wanted each of them this. This actually became more in
high school. They would hear this. I wanted all of
them to be able to have a sentence running in
their head when they were away from me, if they
were out with their friends, my mother would kill me
if and whatever they were about to do that they
knew it was kind of sketchy. I want. I wanted
(33:37):
them to be able to put that in that sense
and see if it worked. And I would say to them,
I want you to do that, not because one percent
of the time I think you're going to not do
that thing. I mean because you're going to do, You're
going to make. Life is filled with making decisions and
bearing the consequences of them. But I just want you
(33:58):
to before you do that, just understand where I would
be on this and the measure of risk you are taking.
I mean, I want you to be safe. I also
want you to have your own life, but just know
if you're doing something I like that, if you think
your mother would kill you, think a whole lot before
you do it, and then be really careful. So so
(34:18):
fortunately they all managed to get through without Nobody ever
has told me that they have used that, but they've
also been in I've heard about situations where I'm sure
that was going through their head at the time. Unfortunately
it all worked out. But that's that's sort of the value.
It's so important. I love that. Yeah, I wanted them
to know that. There were some things. I wanted to
(34:40):
be in their head for some things. But but to
your point, they've got to make the ultimate decision. They do.
But look, like I said, my father's been gone. I
think it's about twenty two years. He's in my head
every day. I hear him, I hear the lessons. I mean,
they're they're still there, and that's what we need to know.
Those lessons are still and you know, another thing, my
(35:02):
husband has said, don't put chemicals in your body, you know,
because we are in a drug culture now, and he's like,
don't put anything that's a chemical in your body. And
so my daughter, now she's in college, people are doing
all kinds of things, and she said, I hear daddy's
saying that. And one of her not necessarily friend, but
a person in her friend group decided to use something
(35:26):
that's a chemical kind of lost her mind. And so
the first thing Carrie did was to go rescue her.
No judgment, but she said, you can't put me in
this situation. And then she said, after the second time,
she said, I'm not coming again, which means, if you
are in a space of danger and you're doing something
that you shouldn't be doing, my next way of helping
(35:47):
you is to call the police because you need help.
I was so proud of her, like, first of all,
I'm so glad you didn't try that because it would
be really bad for you. And you know enough to
know that, because look, I tried all kinds of things
when I was a kid. She didn't, oh good, and
she doesn't want to be around it. So she made
(36:09):
it to me. That's such a sign of strength, an
inner strength, and her point of I don't want you
to be in danger. So if you call me the
third time, my call is to the police, not for
you to be penalized, but for you to be saved
from whatever other outer influencer might be. That's a kind
(36:31):
of grown up decision that's really responsible. I have to
ask you, a girl. You know, we just continue, but
I have one more topic that I want to switch
to quickly. But if you reminded me when you said
your father, you know, was still in your head, he
was gave you a lot of advice. And that is
a wonderful segue to your work as an advice columnist. Yeah,
(36:52):
I mean, I marvel at this. You you are I
don't want to call it the dear Abbey, but you
are the person that people write the nationally syndicated column
and people write to you their problems. So I want
to know how two things. First of all, just how
you approach helping people with their problems. And secondly, is
this I roll inducing for your daughter that you are
(37:13):
the advisor to the world or does she think agree
that you are the best advisor in the world, and
brings all her friends to you to ask for your advice.
She does not bring her friends to me to ask
for advice. Absolutely not. I think she probably doesn't think
about it that much, you know, because I do a
lot of things. That's one of the things that I do.
(37:33):
I've been writing this column, Sense and Sensitivity for as
long as she's been alive. I think it's for many
many years. How do I approach it? It's called sense
and sensitivity, and so the ideas that it's practical and sensitive. Also,
I don't profess to know everything, so I do research
when the questions require research, or you know, a lifeline
(37:57):
in one way or another. People want to be validated.
People want to understand how to navigate something that's really uncomfortable.
And what I've discovered, and I learned this first when
I was traveling around with my first book, Jumping the Broom,
and people were asking me all these questions beyond weddings
because they wanted help from somebody they trusted and for
(38:21):
whatever reason, where they grew up, whatever their environment was,
they didn't know. And I realized that people wanted a
lifeline that they trusted. And the irony of it, Carol,
is that I was so mad about all these rules
when I was growing up, and I earn a living
teaching them. I mean, I was like enough with the rules,
and here I am teaching the rules and teaching just
(38:41):
how to live and navigate your life with grace and integrity,
which is what my parents. Those were the values. So
approach is to infuse grace and integrity into everything. Sometimes
it's cold water in the face. Hello, are you hearing yourself?
This does not make sense. If it doesn't make sense,
(39:03):
it's not going to make sense later. And how can
you think about something differently in order to have the
potential for a different result? And then a lot of
questions these days are kind of cultural awkward, cultural intersections
because we are from everywhere. You know, our world is
(39:25):
not as uniform as it used to be. That there
are a lot of people who in this moment of diversity,
equity and inclusion awareness, a lot of people are making
efforts and they don't know what to do. How can
I look at you and understand you when you're so
different from me, when you eat differently, you dress differently,
(39:45):
you think differently, And how can I react to you
in a way that is respectful? When I grew up
in this way, I get a lot of questions like that,
which are I like those because they works me to
think and they force others to agree to push past
(40:07):
whatever their comfort zone is. Well, people don't really like
to do that, and in tough times they often don't
do it. So when the economy shrinks, when times are
hard for people, they often dig in their heels in
whatever way they believe in. Then we have a lot
of friction. And so my recommendation to people when they
start feeling contracted is to stop, take a breath, and
(40:30):
look again. How can you soften your gaze and consider
the other person's perspective because if you don't, it's just
going to be a fight. Yeah, I mean such every
all roads lead to parenting for me. Oh yeah, Lee,
in this conversation they do. And so I mean what
you just said the really valuable, valuable perspective. So that's
(40:55):
that's great to hear. So, Harriet, I literally I have
so many more questions for you, but I'm going to
stop our conversation now. We'll have to have another one
and make you play the GCP lightning round. Okay, okay,
let's do it. Or questions, and here they go. First,
your favorite poem or saying a favorite doesn't have to
be one. I'll take from my father. His favorite poem
(41:19):
is it's from a man named Edgar a guest. I'd
rather see a poem than read one any day. I
think that's how it says. And it's basically and he
would recite the poem, but it's how do you live?
Not what do you say? I'd rather see a poem
than read one any day. And that's a new one.
(41:42):
That's great. Name two favorite children's books, and they can
be books that you grew up with or books that
your daughter love that you would read to her or
with her two favorite children's that's a tough one. That
was tough for me, nursery rhymes and children's books because
I had my daughter at forty two. I'm gonna say,
(42:04):
I don't you know good Night Moon. My daughter love
good Night Moon. So that was a good one. And
I you know what was fun as the cat in
the Hat. But honestly, I don't think I paid that
much attention to the book. Good question. I'm not usually stumped.
That's a good one. Okay, two questions about momhood. First,
(42:27):
a mom moment that you'd love to do over, And
by that I mean it wasn't I do not mean
that it was so great you want to do it again.
I mean one that you would love to do over
in a different way, and nothing too deep now, So
this is a fun one. I think Carrie was three
or four. She was really young, and I would host
(42:49):
huge parties for her, So I love that part. This
party was at a jim but I'm a fashion girl.
I always dressed her in the most fabulous fashion and
put her in what my niece called like a lady
who goes to church outfit. It was a fabulous, like
(43:09):
Chanel looking ensemble at a gym, and my niece is like, seriously,
on Harry, what is she going to do in this?
So she had it on. All the other kids have
one jeans and sweats and you know they're they're a
little you know, sneaker socks, and she has on lovely
(43:30):
tights and a tweed skirt and jacket. And poor baby
couldn't say anything because I dressed her and it was ridiculous.
I would do over her outfit. That's a good one,
and so finally a moment when you knew you nailed
(43:51):
it as a mom. You've described a few, already described
a few. I love the fact that this is the
first year of college for my daughter, so it's really new.
She wants to spend time with me, and she wants
to be independent. So here's an example. I took her
to Paris for her graduation president and we planned it
(44:13):
for a few years. She studied French for a long time.
We're doing all the things we're doing. But the day
before we left, she learned that ten of her friends
were going to be in Paris at the same time.
So now this mother daughter trip was being hijacked. And
what ended up happening is the days were hours. We
would come home after dinner at around ten, and she
(44:37):
would change her clothes and get ready to go out
in Paris with her friends, returning at three and three
thirty in the morning, and I, of course was awake.
She stayed in touch with me. This was our agreement.
Let me know when you get there, let me know
when you're heading home. And so we created this new
(44:59):
t transitional experience. We had our time, she had her time.
We stayed in touch when I was her age, I
was out till three o'clock in the morning, but I
wasn't calling my mother. We didn't have cell phones, but
I probably wouldn't have called her anyway, And so it's
it's good there's respect and appropriate distance at this stage
(45:21):
in our lives. So it's good. Yeah. No, that's a
that's a nailed it. That's a long moment. So those
are great, great answers, And thank you so much. Happen
so much fun, Thank you so much, thank you. I
hope everyone listening enjoyed this conversation and that you'll come
back for more. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you
(45:44):
listen to podcasts and tell your friends. For more parenting
info and advice, please check out the Ground Control Parenting
blog at ground control Parenting dot com. You can also
find us on Instagram and Facebook at ground Control Parenting
and on LinkedIn under Carol Sutton Lewis. The Ground Control
Parenting with Carol Sutton Lewis podcast is a part of
(46:04):
the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership with iHeartMedia. Until
the next time, take care and thanks for listening.
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