April 5, 2023 • 30 mins
Carol continues the conversation with mother-son duo Angelique and Sage about parenting Black LGBTQ youth with love and support. They discuss the difference between gender and sexuality, and why this distinction is so important to make and understand. They also talk about the use of non-gendered pronouns, the need for grace when it comes to unlearning gender-specific language, and the need to work towards an inclusive, nonjudgmental, and respectful society. This concluding conversation brings even more valuable advice for parents, neighbors, and community members to better understand, support and advocate for the LGBTQ community. Follow us at @GroundControlParenting and on groundcontrolparenting.com. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Ground Control Parenting, a blog and
now a podcast created for parents raising black and brown children.
I'm the creator and your host, Carol Sutton Lewis. In
this podcast series, I talk with some really interesting people
about the job and the joy of parenting. So this
is the second of my two parter on parenting with
Pride with Angelique and Sage Francis. If you haven't heard
(00:27):
part one, I recommend going back and listening to it
first and then rejoining me here. This episode will be
much easy to follow if you do this. In part
one of this conversation, I talk with Angelique, a producer
and radio show host, and her son Sage, a senior
at Vanderbilt University who has held leadership positions in affinity
groups for queer students and students of color, about how
(00:47):
parents can support their LGBTQIA plus children. Angelique described growing
up in a very religious family with a grandfather who
is a pastor of three churches, but remembers questioning the
strict rules of the church from an early age. Early
in our conversation, I read a quote from Angelique to
set the stage. Our children, in particular, we always want
them to be what we want them to be. We
(01:08):
want to give them all the opportunities, but we actually
want them to fit into this little neat box, and
we want to decide what they want to be, how
they should be, what their interest should be. We do
that as parents. Then you went on to say it's
hard for us as parents to put ourselves aside and
not focus on creating little mini needs that we think
are going to be just like us. When I asked
(01:29):
Angelique to tell me about the extent to which this
quote described her journey and whether she had to pivot
away from her preconceived notions, her response was clear, Did
I have to pivot or did I have to take
a one eighty turtle turn away hill and they fall
into a whole other world that I had not prepared myself.
That would be the truth. We talked about how, with
(01:50):
her children's help, she had to learn some new ways
of thinking, some new waves of living and loving and
ask passionate. As I thought I was, I was still cooless.
So it's been a learning curve. Sage talked with us
about coming out to his friends and family and the
challenges that he and his peers face in this process,
(02:12):
and while he appreciated his family support. He wanted to
emphasize the importance of having the support of found family,
the family you choose versus the one you're born into.
As Angelique and Sage talked about how love and acceptance
had guided their relationship. After he came out, I asked
about what they'd say to families that aren't as able
to be as accepting as we all would want them
to be. When I asked Arewlique what she'd say to
(02:33):
parents who are wondering how to let go of expectations
and support their children, she said, all I can tell
you is you have to love and accept them. But
when you look at some of these statistics, like forty
five percent of LGBTQ youth consider suicide in the last year,
that's current, more than half of non binary kids have
(02:54):
considered it, and one out of five children have attempted
suicide in the last two years. So any loving parent,
any caring parent, I think we all you know that's
our greatest fears, right that something could harm our child
(03:16):
or self harmor you know that our child would not
live a healthy, wonderful, loving life. When you look at
seventy three percent of LGBTQ youth experience either depression, anxiety
or both seventy three percent. How about this, forty percent
of LGBTQ youth within the juvenile detention system, forty percent
(03:41):
of them are LGBTQ identify. That means they're being abused,
they're getting into fights there, they're in the situations that
no loving parent wants their child to be at. LGBTQ
youth are more likely to become homeless because they're running
away from home where their parents are putting them out
(04:01):
or they don't feel safe in the home. And then
how about one more. One third of the lgbt Q
youth that were pulled and asked to participate in this,
one third of them said they had to explain to
their doctors and their therapists about what it meant to
be LGBTQ. Huh, So the parents don't know, the therapists
(04:26):
don't know, and the physicians don't know. Wow, And now
part two of our Parenting with Pride conversation. This makes
me just go right back to your quote that I
opened with about how parents have to put ourselves aside
and not think about ourselves, how we are reacting to
think about our children. All those statistics, those heartbreaking statistics,
(04:47):
every one of them. If you could get through to
a parent who's having trouble coping with the different life
that their child is presenting to them than the one
they imagine, which is really all that it is, it's
sort of just it's an adjustment, right, It's an adjustment
to thinking about things differently, and I follow going to
be honest, there's also there can be fear involved in
it as well for your child, because we know other
(05:10):
statistics about you know, bullying and being targeted, and so
there's some fear in there. But it also is just
sort of you know, we all kind of gravitate to
what we know, I mean, parenting wise or life wise,
and so if there's something that our child wants to
do that we're not familiar with, there's there can be reluctance,
But when you hear those statistics, you just have to
put yourself aside and that that is That's one I'm
(05:30):
really glad that you guys are on today because that's
one of the things I talk about all the time
in this podcast, that we really have to look at
our children as not sort of there from us, but
they're not. They are their own persons, their own own people.
And the other part of this, though, is I think
both of you had said this finentially the patience and
the grace, because I mean, this isn't easy for anyone, Sage.
(05:53):
It couldn't have been easy, just sort of figuring out
that you knew the life that you knew was going
to be a life that was going to have to
speak up for yourself a lot more perhaps than you
might have been inclined to generally, and from a parenting perspective,
you're sort of like, Okay, I have to pivot. Pivoting
isn't always easy. But speaking of pivoting, I'm going to
(06:15):
pivot now to just another topic and I'm going to
ask for forgiveness ahead of time, because I'm sure that
both of you had to talk about this a lot,
but it is the linguistic challenges of this new world. First, well,
I'll talk about the linguistic meaning the pronoun, the linguistic
shifts that queer culture has required, the pronouns shifts. Actually,
(06:36):
before I do that, I should ask you, Sage, to
help us with distinguishing between gender and sexuality, because it's
the gender where the pronouns come in. Is that correct? Yes,
So I would say sexuality is who you're sexually attracted
to or not attracted to. That includes homosexuality, heterosexuality, bisexuality
(07:03):
when you are attracted to people of your own gender
and a different or other genders, asexuality where you're not
attracted to any genders. And then you also have that
for romance. And then separately for gender, that's more like
there's sex, which is biological sex, and then there's gender,
(07:24):
which is biological sex is like male female intersex, which
is any combination of genitalia or a body that isn't
clearly defined in one or two categories. And that's a
lot more common than you would think, more common than
redheads actually real. But yeah, and then gender is in
(07:46):
the identity. It is how you feel and who you
are inside, despite what your body looks like. So that
means for me, I identify as a man, and I
also was assigned the gen of male at birth, so
I am considered sis gender and that just means that
my gender matches the sex I was assigned at birth, basically,
(08:10):
and then transgender is if those two do not align.
In simple terms, so basically, gender is your identity, who
you are, who you see yourself as. It can also
deal with how you express your gender and how you
express yourself. Sexuality and romantic attraction are just that, it's separate.
(08:30):
You can be gay and a man, you can be
straight and a man. You know, those are two different things.
And let me jump in with that. Sage also as
a parent, right, because my one of my mistakes early
was saying to Sage, well, you don't know, you haven't
had sex. Now I have. My oldest child is also
is transgender in that they prefer the pronounced them and
(08:52):
they okay, gender shows up first before sexuality. As a parent, right, Like,
if I was in a parents group now and stage
was on, I'd say, first, you're going to notice how
that person feels and identifies and how they feel about
themselves and within the world. Right. So we often think
that sexuality shows up first. Who they're attracted to that
(09:15):
doesn't come first, who they are and who they feel
and who they identify with. I think as a parent,
I realize now shows up first, but we're so busy
using the two terms like they're the same and they're
not the same. I agree, and we'll challenge that at
the same time because I believe that for one, we
(09:37):
use the term sexuality or sexual orientation, but most often
that's encompassing any like sexual attraction in addition to romantic attraction.
So the reason I want to challenge that is just
because I think a tactic used like in terms of
fear mongering, is that by talking about sexuality, we're sexualizing children,
(10:00):
where it's like you will take your two year old son.
People take their two year old son to Hooters and
they'll sexualize them in that way. But if a two
year old is taken to a pride event then or
a drag brunch, then that is considered grooming essentially. So
even at that point of when I did come out
(10:23):
and you said that, I understand the logic behind that.
I really do, and that's part of the patient's engrace thing.
But at the same time, like I don't think you
asked my straight sister like are you sure, Like if
you didn't kiss a guy, how would you know that
you like a guy, because straight is considered the expectation expectation, Yeah,
and that's why coming out is thrust upon people, Like
(10:46):
that's why some people don't need to come out if
they don't want to. You could just live your life.
But at the same time, coming out can be both
a safety and a dangerous thing. Yeah, so I don't know.
All of this is obviously a little more complicated as
we can explain today, but things you want to take
away from this, general and sexuality are separate. And when
(11:08):
we consider sexuality not sexualizing kids or anything like that,
it's just the same thing as kids watching like Prince
Charming and Cinderella kiss in a movie like that's not
any more sexual or graphic than if it was two princes. Yeah,
so quick question. Or non binary and gender fluid the
(11:30):
same thing. So I would consider non binary and to
an extent, gender fluid like an umbrella term. So some
people might well, gender fluid technically is more like their
sense of gender is fluid, obviously, but that means that
sometimes they'll feel more like a man a woman somewhere
(11:53):
in the middle, somewhere off the spectrum. And then non
binary is even more of an umbrella term, I would say,
because it just means you don't align part of the
bin area of male female. And another term that might
be used interchangeably is gender nonconforming, and that is kind
of once again, just like not conforming to either the
bin area of gender or not even conforming to the
(12:16):
idea of gender. Yeah, okay, that makes sense. So onto
the linguistic challenge, and that is for the dinosaurs out there,
which I will include myself, and just for the purpose
of this conversation, the pronoun choice. Now, I understand that
the need to have a different pronoun because if you're
not identifying, you shouldn't have to choose your pronoun. I mean,
(12:37):
I realize if I don't know someone now, I'm hesitant
to assign a pronoun to them because I don't know
what pronoun they would want. So I get that, But
it's the opposite of the patience and the grace, the
sort of impatience and intolerance that one can be met
with if you don't get on board as quickly as
you need to. And I understand this is not about us,
(12:59):
I mean really, it's not that the world is revolving
around people feeling comfortable with using new pronouns. But how
would you suggest you guys have lived through this because
your brother is nonforming? And how bad is it to
make a mistake? I mean, is there a way that
you can make an error and not be thought of
as being offensive. Yeah, well, let me just say, Sage, Sage, Well,
(13:21):
in our family unit, I still make the mistake all
the time. It's Sage is constantly saying them, they, they,
And so it's going to continue to happen for those
of us that you're talking about, Carol, who are older,
who I have been orientated and taught that this is
what it is, and I got to tell you it is.
(13:42):
It's been a difficult, So Sage quick, I just have
to put that out there. Will be right back after
these messages, welcome back to the show. Well, I think
that not to diminish that, but I think there's some
overthinking there. Like for one, my oldest sibling Ja, we
usually refer to them as like my sibling rather than
(14:05):
my brother. But I feel like that's not throwing any blame,
you know, just so I feel like that is a
small correction. And I think that part of the angry
response to pronouns, though you may have experienced it yourself,
is kind of overblown and creates like a picture of
(14:27):
like a blue hair dyed liberal that's angry if anyone
doesn't assume the right pronouns like I don't think that
really is representative of the real world. But I will
say a couple of things about it. One, I feel
like there's this is an opportunity to understand rage if
someone goes through their life and they're a trans woman
(14:47):
and they are continuously referred to as he. Let's say
you're at the end of the day and you say
this please someone that identifies as a woman but doesn't
necessarily align with their sex at birth. Someone that's trans
can have gender affirming surgery or not. That includes a
(15:12):
couple of different things. But getting back to what I
was saying, you could be the person that at a
coffee shop, at Starbucks or something at the end of
the day, you miss gender someone. But if they're going
through life every day, several times a day experiencing that
where it can literally cause pain, Like gender dysphoria is
(15:33):
something that doesn't happen with all trans people but definitely
does happen with a lot. Is basically when once again,
like your gender doesn't align with how people see you
or your body. It can take a different a couple
of different forms, and it can be painful. It can
be painful, and when people are repeatedly miss gendered. It
(15:53):
can be painful, and I think especially this might be
a bit of a jump, but especially as Black people,
as people of color, I think that rage is something
that is one chicken out of context, and two we're
not allowed to have because otherwise, like we're ostracizing a
group of people that just want to understand us or
(16:14):
something like that, And that's not really how I deal
with my race relations. But I do think there are
some similarities where it's like often actually in the black community,
I feel surprised that there aren't as many instances of
empathy in that way because as black people, we go
(16:35):
through days with white people miss um what's it called
misrepresent or miss label or oh yeah, but I meant
more with microaggressions every day. And if that's happening to
me in my predominantly white school every day and I
snap at the last person, I feel like that doesn't
make no sense, you know. But since that's all under
(16:58):
the idea that this is like this pronoun range, what
I would go to then after is that this isn't new.
Pronouns have always existed. That's how English grammar works. There's
nothing new called pronouns. It's I've always been referred to
as he and him. I never had to be like,
these are my pronouns. And it's because that's an assumption.
(17:19):
People are referred to as they and them all the time.
If you said that you went to the doctor, and
I said, what did they say? Right there? That's using
day and them, and that's not considered strange or anything.
It's also not grammatically incorrect. If I was referred to
my sibling Jay using day, then I could say that
(17:40):
they are coming to dinner. That's not grammatically incorrect. That's
how you would, you know, correctly use it, right right?
I will, I agree. I will just push back eighteen
a bit and say that where the confusion comes in
is singular or plural. And that's where I when I
have talked to people whose children used they pronoun and they,
and I would say, how is so? And so they're
(18:01):
getting an apartment, I would assume there was someone else there.
I mean, so it's just old English major just that
sense of there is another there's a way to unintentionally
make a mistake. But you know, when you were saying
about black people, one of the things I thought of
recently is that you're right, there should be more empathy
in great part because as a people, we have gone
through many name changes. I mean, we were colored, well
(18:23):
before we were stuff that I'm not saying on the air,
But then we were colored, and then we decided we
wanted to be negro, and then negro worked for a
long time, and then in the seventies we were black,
and don't call someone who wanted to be called black negro.
And then there's African American, which is actually came into
favor and then has kind of come out of favor.
(18:44):
And I have seen people take offense with the being
called something that is not the current thing to be called.
And I'm not trying to trivialize this. I'm trying to
suggest that we should have and I've talked to myself
about that because I've been alive in the transition. And
if I have seen if someone calls somebody a negro,
if somebody says negro at this point, you know, practically
(19:05):
fighting words. I mean, that's not you know, and there
is a time when I mean, you know, the NAACP,
that's what we called ourselves. So the concept of a
group of people deciding that we require a language change
and that we deserve a language change. That makes sense
to me, But I have to be reminded of that,
because you know, you sort of it, sort of get
comfortable in one way, and it's sort of hard to
(19:28):
And that's kind of what I meant by and that's
kind of what I meant by it's difficult, not making
an excuse for it being difficult, but saying it's difficult
for both, Right, it's difficult to exist for both of us.
But I will say that there became a time when,
like Sage said, if you were repeatedly misgjered, how does
that make you feel? Because this is really beyond a
(19:49):
pronoun or a name calling or a category. And why
does everybody have to fit in some neat box so
that all of us feel comfortable so we can walk
in a room and say, oh, they're in that bo
they're in that box. That's not life, that's not who
we are, that's not humane even right. And so I'm
at the point now where I realized, yes, I'm gonna
try my best to do the the same way I
(20:13):
called your technical your technical person by the wrong name,
I will do that, and I don't mean to do it,
and I apologize, but More importantly, if I call her
the wrong name, she's not going to feel personally attacked,
and she's not going to take it but necessarily but
she's not going to take it but so personal. Perhaps,
(20:33):
But when I'm looking I'm repeatedly called the wrong name
in a classroom by white teacher, for example, I will
maybe not take it personal, but I will be frustrated
and maybe yeah, but I'm like, but sage, I agree.
But while I'm trying to say is that we have
to understand how deeply affecting it is to some people.
(20:58):
And if you care about how you make people feel,
that we're going to work harder on creating a place
where people feel loved and cared about, whether it's your
children or the kids up the street or your student
in class. Right, So I'm just saying, beyond the labeling,
what does it really mean for us to make that adjustment?
That's basic humanity? Really? Yeah, And in terms of like
(21:23):
how to go about it in a way that I
don't know, doesn't put you on the defensive or isn't
like a moral judgment on your life. I think that
if you make a mistake and you're corrected, it's once
again it's not personal. Don't take it personally because one
what I was saying before, like it can be upsetting,
but everyone makes mistakes. I make mistakes still, of course,
(21:46):
and if someone corrects me, I could be saying a
sentence and I miss gender someone. If someone corrects me,
I say, oh, thanks, and then just use the new
pronoun given. I feel like that's why I say. I
feel like it's taken out of contact, that it's blown
up more than it is, just because even though it
is hard, especially because people have grown up and lives
(22:08):
many years without these ideas in their head, that it
is still like a simple thing. It is a simple thing,
just not necessarily simple to get used to, but it
is very much so. And like singular they has also
been part of English since like the fourteenth century, I think,
(22:29):
and like you're saying it, we haven't used it necessarily
in the same way because you might assume that there
are more than one person. But it is something that's
not new. And I say that once again not to
be like, oh so everyone should know, but because people
act like it is new a lot in a way
that I think is damaging, Like why are they coming
up with all these pronouns when they existed. You know, yeah,
(22:53):
I think what really happens because you have an instance
where people who have lived much of their lives and
you get to a certain age, it just don't like
to be corrected. I'm not I'm generalizing, but I mean,
you know, we all it pulls you back a little
when you realize that you're in the middle of saying
something and then suddenly you've said something wrong and you
have to sort of focus. It's a very um it
goes again to the your your suggestion was a great one.
(23:16):
You just say okay, thanks and then you keep moving.
And if you can, try to take it out of
your having made this mistake, which says something about you,
versus you're having made a mistake, which means that you
needed to be corrected. It's it takes some of the
I think it's just hard for people, and not not
just but I do think it's hard for people, particularly
older them older we get them more set we are
(23:38):
in our ways. So so man, I can't tell you
how helpful all this has been and how much I
appreciate the both of you going deep on all these
things with me and with me and for the benefit
of our audience. So you know, I could I say
this often, but in this instance, I really could go
on for another session because there's so many more things
(23:58):
to talk about. But I'm going to wrap it up here.
But before we go, I'm gonna nick both of you
guys together play the GCP Lightning Round. I have four
quick questions and two questions you both have to answer,
and then one question that each of you has to answer.
So are you guys ready to play the Lightning Round?
I think so, yes, we are. We are gaming family,
(24:22):
so perhaps we're ready exactly you guys are, Yeah, you're
into the games. Here we go, Okay, both of you,
please give me a favorite poem or a favorite saying,
or just something that you say a lot and that
that makes you feel good to say it. And whomever
would like to go first can hop right out there.
Mommy got that that I'm gonna go with, I say,
(24:45):
and I used to have it on my wall and
I still say it. It's all good. It's the thing
I say all the time because I think even in
the difficult moments, even in the heartbreaks, even in the
moments where you don't know which way is up, I
believe that our steps are strategically ordered, which is why
I call my show Living in the Sweet Spot right
strategically ordered. And so no matter what it feels like,
(25:09):
ultimately what you learned from it, it's all good. So
I say it a lot. M Yeah, that's a great one. Sage.
You're gonna jump in on that one. Are you're gonna
have one of your own? I have a very silly one.
I'm bad at thinking on the spot. Um, but it
was like a meme kind of. But girls that get
it get it, girls that don't don't. And when I
(25:30):
say that, I specifically me and wait, like what so
I got it? I got it. Girls that get it
get it. Girls that don't don't know that don't don't? Yeah. Um,
but I think me and my friends have just used
it as in like, not everyone's gonna get you. Not
everyone's gonna like see it from your perspective. And when
(25:50):
it comes to that, like maybe that's okay. You know
you're who you are, No one can tell you who
you are, and the girls that get it will get
it and the girls who don't don't. Okay, I love that.
I'm going to steal that. Okay, next for the both
of you. And this should be easier, not so much
on the spot. Just go down memory lane. Give me
one favorite children's book and it can be, Sage, one
(26:14):
that you loved having read to you, or one that
you like to read. Angelique, would be one you like
to read to your children or that you had read
to you, anyone. I'll start with just a classic Green
Eggs and Ham because that was the first book I
read by myself. Oh that's a great one. I love that.
That's a great that is a great one, and that
(26:36):
would I would probably be picked that one as well.
Let's do let's just keep moving, mother and son on
the same page. I love it. Okay, exactly, Okay, I'm
going to ask you, m Angelique. I'm gonna ask you
both kind of the same question because this is a
parenting show, Sage, and we have to end with giving
a mom flowers. So Angelique, I'm going to ask you
(27:00):
for a moment when you knew you nailed it as
a mom. And then when she's done, Sage, I'm going
to ask you for a moment when your mom just
nailed it. And it can be across the board or anything.
It doesn't have to it can be in any way,
shape or form. So Anthony, give me a moment where
you're like, yeah, I did that. That is funny. I
(27:21):
feel like this is a moment. This is that moment
I must ask. I must tell you, even being right
now in your show with my youngest child, being able
to have a conversation, which was always so difficult, you know,
for us, but more difficult for others. And that moment
when I watched Sage teaching over a hundred people about
(27:46):
who he is and how to be a better advocate,
is honestly one of my proudest moments I've ever had
as a parent. And so this is the part two
of that is being able to I've had Sage and
Jay on my show living in the Sweet Spinal cap
La because I knew that that community needed terminology, needed,
understanding needed. So this is that moment for me to
(28:07):
be honest. Oh that's great. That's such a great answer. Okay, Sage,
no pressure. But when did your mom nail? It doesn't
have to be that deep. It could be like she
did something good for you. I mean, okay, well it's
kind of that, Davi. It's just I think that my
mom has always been there and kind of always will
be there in my heart. But she gave me this
(28:29):
necklace when I was younger, and I didn't really wear it.
But then when she moved to La, she found it
and she gave it to me again. But the reason
I did that was it's just like another example of
like I do always have my mom with me. I
can call her whenever and maybe cry on the phone.
M the necklaces and what it represents. So it says
(28:51):
wisdom on it, which is a reference to my name,
but then the other one is a stone. Um that's
a reference to David and Goliath. So part for me
is just like when I'm facing something that feels unsurmountable,
I can like hold it or something and think of
my mom and know like I'm not alone in it.
So I love that. I love that love that. Oh
(29:13):
you guys won the game, so we ya yeah yea.
So those are great, great answers. And again I thank
you so much for being with us today. Thank you,
thank you, thank you you are thank you, thank you
for having us of course, and before we go, I
just want to say, for those of you listen to
(29:35):
Andrew Leique's show Living in the Sweet Spot, KBLA. What
did one oh five help me? One oh five is
KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. You can download the app list
in anytime, any place. Is the only progressively black radio
talk radio west of the Mississippi. Is owned by Tavis Smiley,
and we are we have a lot to talk about,
so come and join us at KBLA fifteen eighty. Great, great, great,
(29:59):
and sage. Best of luck to you as you round
out your years at Vanderbilt. We didn't even get to
talk about how much living in Tennessee has probably impacted
you politically, but that's another Stay strong, Stay strong in Tennessee,
and thank you both so much. Have a great day.
I hope everyone listening enjoyed this conversation and that you'll
(30:21):
come back for more. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever
you listen to podcasts and tell your friends. For more
parenting info and advice, please check out the Ground Control
Parenting blog at ground control parenting dot com. You can
also find us on Instagram and Facebook at ground Control
Parenting and on LinkedIn under Carol Sutton Lewis. The Ground
(30:42):
Control Parenting with Carol Sutton Lewis podcast is a part
of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership with iHeartMedia.
Until the next time, take care and thanks for listening.
Hello, and welcome to Ground Control Parenting, a blog and
now a podcast created for parents raising black and brown children.
I'm the creator and your host, Carol Sutton Lewis. In
this podcast series, I talk with some really interesting people
about the job and the joy of parenting. So this
is the second of my two parter on parenting with
Pride with Angelique and Sage Francis. If you haven't heard
(00:27):
part one, I recommend going back and listening to it
first and then rejoining me here. This episode will be
much easy to follow if you do this. In part
one of this conversation, I talk with Angelique, a producer
and radio show host, and her son Sage, a senior
at Vanderbilt University who has held leadership positions in affinity
groups for queer students and students of color, about how
(00:47):
parents can support their LGBTQIA plus children. Angelique described growing
up in a very religious family with a grandfather who
is a pastor of three churches, but remembers questioning the
strict rules of the church from an early age. Early
in our conversation, I read a quote from Angelique to
set the stage. Our children, in particular, we always want
them to be what we want them to be. We
(01:08):
want to give them all the opportunities, but we actually
want them to fit into this little neat box, and
we want to decide what they want to be, how
they should be, what their interest should be. We do
that as parents. Then you went on to say it's
hard for us as parents to put ourselves aside and
not focus on creating little mini needs that we think
are going to be just like us. When I asked
(01:29):
Angelique to tell me about the extent to which this
quote described her journey and whether she had to pivot
away from her preconceived notions, her response was clear, Did
I have to pivot or did I have to take
a one eighty turtle turn away hill and they fall
into a whole other world that I had not prepared myself.
That would be the truth. We talked about how, with
(01:50):
her children's help, she had to learn some new ways
of thinking, some new waves of living and loving and
ask passionate. As I thought I was, I was still cooless.
So it's been a learning curve. Sage talked with us
about coming out to his friends and family and the
challenges that he and his peers face in this process,
(02:12):
and while he appreciated his family support. He wanted to
emphasize the importance of having the support of found family,
the family you choose versus the one you're born into.
As Angelique and Sage talked about how love and acceptance
had guided their relationship. After he came out, I asked
about what they'd say to families that aren't as able
to be as accepting as we all would want them
to be. When I asked Arewlique what she'd say to
(02:33):
parents who are wondering how to let go of expectations
and support their children, she said, all I can tell
you is you have to love and accept them. But
when you look at some of these statistics, like forty
five percent of LGBTQ youth consider suicide in the last year,
that's current, more than half of non binary kids have
(02:54):
considered it, and one out of five children have attempted
suicide in the last two years. So any loving parent,
any caring parent, I think we all you know that's
our greatest fears, right that something could harm our child
(03:16):
or self harmor you know that our child would not
live a healthy, wonderful, loving life. When you look at
seventy three percent of LGBTQ youth experience either depression, anxiety
or both seventy three percent. How about this, forty percent
of LGBTQ youth within the juvenile detention system, forty percent
(03:41):
of them are LGBTQ identify. That means they're being abused,
they're getting into fights there, they're in the situations that
no loving parent wants their child to be at. LGBTQ
youth are more likely to become homeless because they're running
away from home where their parents are putting them out
(04:01):
or they don't feel safe in the home. And then
how about one more. One third of the lgbt Q
youth that were pulled and asked to participate in this,
one third of them said they had to explain to
their doctors and their therapists about what it meant to
be LGBTQ. Huh, So the parents don't know, the therapists
(04:26):
don't know, and the physicians don't know. Wow, And now
part two of our Parenting with Pride conversation. This makes
me just go right back to your quote that I
opened with about how parents have to put ourselves aside
and not think about ourselves, how we are reacting to
think about our children. All those statistics, those heartbreaking statistics,
(04:47):
every one of them. If you could get through to
a parent who's having trouble coping with the different life
that their child is presenting to them than the one
they imagine, which is really all that it is, it's
sort of just it's an adjustment, right, It's an adjustment
to thinking about things differently, and I follow going to
be honest, there's also there can be fear involved in
it as well for your child, because we know other
(05:10):
statistics about you know, bullying and being targeted, and so
there's some fear in there. But it also is just
sort of you know, we all kind of gravitate to
what we know, I mean, parenting wise or life wise,
and so if there's something that our child wants to
do that we're not familiar with, there's there can be reluctance,
But when you hear those statistics, you just have to
put yourself aside and that that is That's one I'm
(05:30):
really glad that you guys are on today because that's
one of the things I talk about all the time
in this podcast, that we really have to look at
our children as not sort of there from us, but
they're not. They are their own persons, their own own people.
And the other part of this, though, is I think
both of you had said this finentially the patience and
the grace, because I mean, this isn't easy for anyone, Sage.
(05:53):
It couldn't have been easy, just sort of figuring out
that you knew the life that you knew was going
to be a life that was going to have to
speak up for yourself a lot more perhaps than you
might have been inclined to generally, and from a parenting perspective,
you're sort of like, Okay, I have to pivot. Pivoting
isn't always easy. But speaking of pivoting, I'm going to
(06:15):
pivot now to just another topic and I'm going to
ask for forgiveness ahead of time, because I'm sure that
both of you had to talk about this a lot,
but it is the linguistic challenges of this new world. First, well,
I'll talk about the linguistic meaning the pronoun, the linguistic
shifts that queer culture has required, the pronouns shifts. Actually,
(06:36):
before I do that, I should ask you, Sage, to
help us with distinguishing between gender and sexuality, because it's
the gender where the pronouns come in. Is that correct? Yes,
So I would say sexuality is who you're sexually attracted
to or not attracted to. That includes homosexuality, heterosexuality, bisexuality
(07:03):
when you are attracted to people of your own gender
and a different or other genders, asexuality where you're not
attracted to any genders. And then you also have that
for romance. And then separately for gender, that's more like
there's sex, which is biological sex, and then there's gender,
(07:24):
which is biological sex is like male female intersex, which
is any combination of genitalia or a body that isn't
clearly defined in one or two categories. And that's a
lot more common than you would think, more common than
redheads actually real. But yeah, and then gender is in
(07:46):
the identity. It is how you feel and who you
are inside, despite what your body looks like. So that
means for me, I identify as a man, and I
also was assigned the gen of male at birth, so
I am considered sis gender and that just means that
my gender matches the sex I was assigned at birth, basically,
(08:10):
and then transgender is if those two do not align.
In simple terms, so basically, gender is your identity, who
you are, who you see yourself as. It can also
deal with how you express your gender and how you
express yourself. Sexuality and romantic attraction are just that, it's separate.
(08:30):
You can be gay and a man, you can be
straight and a man. You know, those are two different things.
And let me jump in with that. Sage also as
a parent, right, because my one of my mistakes early
was saying to Sage, well, you don't know, you haven't
had sex. Now I have. My oldest child is also
is transgender in that they prefer the pronounced them and
(08:52):
they okay, gender shows up first before sexuality. As a parent, right, Like,
if I was in a parents group now and stage
was on, I'd say, first, you're going to notice how
that person feels and identifies and how they feel about
themselves and within the world. Right. So we often think
that sexuality shows up first. Who they're attracted to that
(09:15):
doesn't come first, who they are and who they feel
and who they identify with. I think as a parent,
I realize now shows up first, but we're so busy
using the two terms like they're the same and they're
not the same. I agree, and we'll challenge that at
the same time because I believe that for one, we
(09:37):
use the term sexuality or sexual orientation, but most often
that's encompassing any like sexual attraction in addition to romantic attraction.
So the reason I want to challenge that is just
because I think a tactic used like in terms of
fear mongering, is that by talking about sexuality, we're sexualizing children,
(10:00):
where it's like you will take your two year old son.
People take their two year old son to Hooters and
they'll sexualize them in that way. But if a two
year old is taken to a pride event then or
a drag brunch, then that is considered grooming essentially. So
even at that point of when I did come out
(10:23):
and you said that, I understand the logic behind that.
I really do, and that's part of the patient's engrace thing.
But at the same time, like I don't think you
asked my straight sister like are you sure, Like if
you didn't kiss a guy, how would you know that
you like a guy, because straight is considered the expectation expectation, Yeah,
and that's why coming out is thrust upon people, Like
(10:46):
that's why some people don't need to come out if
they don't want to. You could just live your life.
But at the same time, coming out can be both
a safety and a dangerous thing. Yeah, so I don't know.
All of this is obviously a little more complicated as
we can explain today, but things you want to take
away from this, general and sexuality are separate. And when
(11:08):
we consider sexuality not sexualizing kids or anything like that,
it's just the same thing as kids watching like Prince
Charming and Cinderella kiss in a movie like that's not
any more sexual or graphic than if it was two princes. Yeah,
so quick question. Or non binary and gender fluid the
(11:30):
same thing. So I would consider non binary and to
an extent, gender fluid like an umbrella term. So some
people might well, gender fluid technically is more like their
sense of gender is fluid, obviously, but that means that
sometimes they'll feel more like a man a woman somewhere
(11:53):
in the middle, somewhere off the spectrum. And then non
binary is even more of an umbrella term, I would say,
because it just means you don't align part of the
bin area of male female. And another term that might
be used interchangeably is gender nonconforming, and that is kind
of once again, just like not conforming to either the
bin area of gender or not even conforming to the
(12:16):
idea of gender. Yeah, okay, that makes sense. So onto
the linguistic challenge, and that is for the dinosaurs out there,
which I will include myself, and just for the purpose
of this conversation, the pronoun choice. Now, I understand that
the need to have a different pronoun because if you're
not identifying, you shouldn't have to choose your pronoun. I mean,
(12:37):
I realize if I don't know someone now, I'm hesitant
to assign a pronoun to them because I don't know
what pronoun they would want. So I get that, But
it's the opposite of the patience and the grace, the
sort of impatience and intolerance that one can be met
with if you don't get on board as quickly as
you need to. And I understand this is not about us,
(12:59):
I mean really, it's not that the world is revolving
around people feeling comfortable with using new pronouns. But how
would you suggest you guys have lived through this because
your brother is nonforming? And how bad is it to
make a mistake? I mean, is there a way that
you can make an error and not be thought of
as being offensive. Yeah, well, let me just say, Sage, Sage, Well,
(13:21):
in our family unit, I still make the mistake all
the time. It's Sage is constantly saying them, they, they,
And so it's going to continue to happen for those
of us that you're talking about, Carol, who are older,
who I have been orientated and taught that this is
what it is, and I got to tell you it is.
(13:42):
It's been a difficult, So Sage quick, I just have
to put that out there. Will be right back after
these messages, welcome back to the show. Well, I think
that not to diminish that, but I think there's some
overthinking there. Like for one, my oldest sibling Ja, we
usually refer to them as like my sibling rather than
(14:05):
my brother. But I feel like that's not throwing any blame,
you know, just so I feel like that is a
small correction. And I think that part of the angry
response to pronouns, though you may have experienced it yourself,
is kind of overblown and creates like a picture of
(14:27):
like a blue hair dyed liberal that's angry if anyone
doesn't assume the right pronouns like I don't think that
really is representative of the real world. But I will
say a couple of things about it. One, I feel
like there's this is an opportunity to understand rage if
someone goes through their life and they're a trans woman
(14:47):
and they are continuously referred to as he. Let's say
you're at the end of the day and you say
this please someone that identifies as a woman but doesn't
necessarily align with their sex at birth. Someone that's trans
can have gender affirming surgery or not. That includes a
(15:12):
couple of different things. But getting back to what I
was saying, you could be the person that at a
coffee shop, at Starbucks or something at the end of
the day, you miss gender someone. But if they're going
through life every day, several times a day experiencing that
where it can literally cause pain, Like gender dysphoria is
(15:33):
something that doesn't happen with all trans people but definitely
does happen with a lot. Is basically when once again,
like your gender doesn't align with how people see you
or your body. It can take a different a couple
of different forms, and it can be painful. It can
be painful, and when people are repeatedly miss gendered. It
(15:53):
can be painful, and I think especially this might be
a bit of a jump, but especially as Black people,
as people of color, I think that rage is something
that is one chicken out of context, and two we're
not allowed to have because otherwise, like we're ostracizing a
group of people that just want to understand us or
(16:14):
something like that, And that's not really how I deal
with my race relations. But I do think there are
some similarities where it's like often actually in the black community,
I feel surprised that there aren't as many instances of
empathy in that way because as black people, we go
(16:35):
through days with white people miss um what's it called
misrepresent or miss label or oh yeah, but I meant
more with microaggressions every day. And if that's happening to
me in my predominantly white school every day and I
snap at the last person, I feel like that doesn't
make no sense, you know. But since that's all under
(16:58):
the idea that this is like this pronoun range, what
I would go to then after is that this isn't new.
Pronouns have always existed. That's how English grammar works. There's
nothing new called pronouns. It's I've always been referred to
as he and him. I never had to be like,
these are my pronouns. And it's because that's an assumption.
(17:19):
People are referred to as they and them all the time.
If you said that you went to the doctor, and
I said, what did they say? Right there? That's using
day and them, and that's not considered strange or anything.
It's also not grammatically incorrect. If I was referred to
my sibling Jay using day, then I could say that
(17:40):
they are coming to dinner. That's not grammatically incorrect. That's
how you would, you know, correctly use it, right right?
I will, I agree. I will just push back eighteen
a bit and say that where the confusion comes in
is singular or plural. And that's where I when I
have talked to people whose children used they pronoun and they,
and I would say, how is so? And so they're
(18:01):
getting an apartment, I would assume there was someone else there.
I mean, so it's just old English major just that
sense of there is another there's a way to unintentionally
make a mistake. But you know, when you were saying
about black people, one of the things I thought of
recently is that you're right, there should be more empathy
in great part because as a people, we have gone
through many name changes. I mean, we were colored, well
(18:23):
before we were stuff that I'm not saying on the air,
But then we were colored, and then we decided we
wanted to be negro, and then negro worked for a
long time, and then in the seventies we were black,
and don't call someone who wanted to be called black negro.
And then there's African American, which is actually came into
favor and then has kind of come out of favor.
(18:44):
And I have seen people take offense with the being
called something that is not the current thing to be called.
And I'm not trying to trivialize this. I'm trying to
suggest that we should have and I've talked to myself
about that because I've been alive in the transition. And
if I have seen if someone calls somebody a negro,
if somebody says negro at this point, you know, practically
(19:05):
fighting words. I mean, that's not you know, and there
is a time when I mean, you know, the NAACP,
that's what we called ourselves. So the concept of a
group of people deciding that we require a language change
and that we deserve a language change. That makes sense
to me, But I have to be reminded of that,
because you know, you sort of it, sort of get
comfortable in one way, and it's sort of hard to
(19:28):
And that's kind of what I meant by and that's
kind of what I meant by it's difficult, not making
an excuse for it being difficult, but saying it's difficult
for both, Right, it's difficult to exist for both of us.
But I will say that there became a time when,
like Sage said, if you were repeatedly misgjered, how does
that make you feel? Because this is really beyond a
(19:49):
pronoun or a name calling or a category. And why
does everybody have to fit in some neat box so
that all of us feel comfortable so we can walk
in a room and say, oh, they're in that bo
they're in that box. That's not life, that's not who
we are, that's not humane even right. And so I'm
at the point now where I realized, yes, I'm gonna
try my best to do the the same way I
(20:13):
called your technical your technical person by the wrong name,
I will do that, and I don't mean to do it,
and I apologize, but More importantly, if I call her
the wrong name, she's not going to feel personally attacked,
and she's not going to take it but necessarily but
she's not going to take it but so personal. Perhaps,
(20:33):
But when I'm looking I'm repeatedly called the wrong name
in a classroom by white teacher, for example, I will
maybe not take it personal, but I will be frustrated
and maybe yeah, but I'm like, but sage, I agree.
But while I'm trying to say is that we have
to understand how deeply affecting it is to some people.
(20:58):
And if you care about how you make people feel,
that we're going to work harder on creating a place
where people feel loved and cared about, whether it's your
children or the kids up the street or your student
in class. Right, So I'm just saying, beyond the labeling,
what does it really mean for us to make that adjustment?
That's basic humanity? Really? Yeah, And in terms of like
(21:23):
how to go about it in a way that I
don't know, doesn't put you on the defensive or isn't
like a moral judgment on your life. I think that
if you make a mistake and you're corrected, it's once
again it's not personal. Don't take it personally because one
what I was saying before, like it can be upsetting,
but everyone makes mistakes. I make mistakes still, of course,
(21:46):
and if someone corrects me, I could be saying a
sentence and I miss gender someone. If someone corrects me,
I say, oh, thanks, and then just use the new
pronoun given. I feel like that's why I say. I
feel like it's taken out of contact, that it's blown
up more than it is, just because even though it
is hard, especially because people have grown up and lives
(22:08):
many years without these ideas in their head, that it
is still like a simple thing. It is a simple thing,
just not necessarily simple to get used to, but it
is very much so. And like singular they has also
been part of English since like the fourteenth century, I think,
(22:29):
and like you're saying it, we haven't used it necessarily
in the same way because you might assume that there
are more than one person. But it is something that's
not new. And I say that once again not to
be like, oh so everyone should know, but because people
act like it is new a lot in a way
that I think is damaging, Like why are they coming
up with all these pronouns when they existed. You know, yeah,
(22:53):
I think what really happens because you have an instance
where people who have lived much of their lives and
you get to a certain age, it just don't like
to be corrected. I'm not I'm generalizing, but I mean,
you know, we all it pulls you back a little
when you realize that you're in the middle of saying
something and then suddenly you've said something wrong and you
have to sort of focus. It's a very um it
goes again to the your your suggestion was a great one.
(23:16):
You just say okay, thanks and then you keep moving.
And if you can, try to take it out of
your having made this mistake, which says something about you,
versus you're having made a mistake, which means that you
needed to be corrected. It's it takes some of the
I think it's just hard for people, and not not
just but I do think it's hard for people, particularly
older them older we get them more set we are
(23:38):
in our ways. So so man, I can't tell you
how helpful all this has been and how much I
appreciate the both of you going deep on all these
things with me and with me and for the benefit
of our audience. So you know, I could I say
this often, but in this instance, I really could go
on for another session because there's so many more things
(23:58):
to talk about. But I'm going to wrap it up here.
But before we go, I'm gonna nick both of you
guys together play the GCP Lightning Round. I have four
quick questions and two questions you both have to answer,
and then one question that each of you has to answer.
So are you guys ready to play the Lightning Round?
I think so, yes, we are. We are gaming family,
(24:22):
so perhaps we're ready exactly you guys are, Yeah, you're
into the games. Here we go, Okay, both of you,
please give me a favorite poem or a favorite saying,
or just something that you say a lot and that
that makes you feel good to say it. And whomever
would like to go first can hop right out there.
Mommy got that that I'm gonna go with, I say,
(24:45):
and I used to have it on my wall and
I still say it. It's all good. It's the thing
I say all the time because I think even in
the difficult moments, even in the heartbreaks, even in the
moments where you don't know which way is up, I
believe that our steps are strategically ordered, which is why
I call my show Living in the Sweet Spot right
strategically ordered. And so no matter what it feels like,
(25:09):
ultimately what you learned from it, it's all good. So
I say it a lot. M Yeah, that's a great one. Sage.
You're gonna jump in on that one. Are you're gonna
have one of your own? I have a very silly one.
I'm bad at thinking on the spot. Um, but it
was like a meme kind of. But girls that get
it get it, girls that don't don't. And when I
(25:30):
say that, I specifically me and wait, like what so
I got it? I got it. Girls that get it
get it. Girls that don't don't know that don't don't? Yeah. Um,
but I think me and my friends have just used
it as in like, not everyone's gonna get you. Not
everyone's gonna like see it from your perspective. And when
(25:50):
it comes to that, like maybe that's okay. You know
you're who you are, No one can tell you who
you are, and the girls that get it will get
it and the girls who don't don't. Okay, I love that.
I'm going to steal that. Okay, next for the both
of you. And this should be easier, not so much
on the spot. Just go down memory lane. Give me
one favorite children's book and it can be, Sage, one
(26:14):
that you loved having read to you, or one that
you like to read. Angelique, would be one you like
to read to your children or that you had read
to you, anyone. I'll start with just a classic Green
Eggs and Ham because that was the first book I
read by myself. Oh that's a great one. I love that.
That's a great that is a great one, and that
(26:36):
would I would probably be picked that one as well.
Let's do let's just keep moving, mother and son on
the same page. I love it. Okay, exactly, Okay, I'm
going to ask you, m Angelique. I'm gonna ask you
both kind of the same question because this is a
parenting show, Sage, and we have to end with giving
a mom flowers. So Angelique, I'm going to ask you
(27:00):
for a moment when you knew you nailed it as
a mom. And then when she's done, Sage, I'm going
to ask you for a moment when your mom just
nailed it. And it can be across the board or anything.
It doesn't have to it can be in any way,
shape or form. So Anthony, give me a moment where
you're like, yeah, I did that. That is funny. I
(27:21):
feel like this is a moment. This is that moment
I must ask. I must tell you, even being right
now in your show with my youngest child, being able
to have a conversation, which was always so difficult, you know,
for us, but more difficult for others. And that moment
when I watched Sage teaching over a hundred people about
(27:46):
who he is and how to be a better advocate,
is honestly one of my proudest moments I've ever had
as a parent. And so this is the part two
of that is being able to I've had Sage and
Jay on my show living in the Sweet Spinal cap
La because I knew that that community needed terminology, needed,
understanding needed. So this is that moment for me to
(28:07):
be honest. Oh that's great. That's such a great answer. Okay, Sage,
no pressure. But when did your mom nail? It doesn't
have to be that deep. It could be like she
did something good for you. I mean, okay, well it's
kind of that, Davi. It's just I think that my
mom has always been there and kind of always will
be there in my heart. But she gave me this
(28:29):
necklace when I was younger, and I didn't really wear it.
But then when she moved to La, she found it
and she gave it to me again. But the reason
I did that was it's just like another example of
like I do always have my mom with me. I
can call her whenever and maybe cry on the phone.
M the necklaces and what it represents. So it says
(28:51):
wisdom on it, which is a reference to my name,
but then the other one is a stone. Um that's
a reference to David and Goliath. So part for me
is just like when I'm facing something that feels unsurmountable,
I can like hold it or something and think of
my mom and know like I'm not alone in it.
So I love that. I love that love that. Oh
(29:13):
you guys won the game, so we ya yeah yea.
So those are great, great answers. And again I thank
you so much for being with us today. Thank you,
thank you, thank you you are thank you, thank you
for having us of course, and before we go, I
just want to say, for those of you listen to
(29:35):
Andrew Leique's show Living in the Sweet Spot, KBLA. What
did one oh five help me? One oh five is
KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. You can download the app list
in anytime, any place. Is the only progressively black radio
talk radio west of the Mississippi. Is owned by Tavis Smiley,
and we are we have a lot to talk about,
so come and join us at KBLA fifteen eighty. Great, great, great,
(29:59):
and sage. Best of luck to you as you round
out your years at Vanderbilt. We didn't even get to
talk about how much living in Tennessee has probably impacted
you politically, but that's another Stay strong, Stay strong in Tennessee,
and thank you both so much. Have a great day.
I hope everyone listening enjoyed this conversation and that you'll
(30:21):
come back for more. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever
you listen to podcasts and tell your friends. For more
parenting info and advice, please check out the Ground Control
Parenting blog at ground control parenting dot com. You can
also find us on Instagram and Facebook at ground Control
Parenting and on LinkedIn under Carol Sutton Lewis. The Ground
(30:42):
Control Parenting with Carol Sutton Lewis podcast is a part
of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership with iHeartMedia.
Until the next time, take care and thanks for listening.
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