From Darkness to Light: Navigating Self Acceptance to Thrive After Trauma

Episode Transcript
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Dr Nat Green (00:01):
Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nat Green, and I'm so excited tohave you join me as we discuss
what it means to navigate yourway through post-traumatic
growth and not just survive, butto thrive after trauma.

(00:23):
Through our podcast, we willexplore ways for you to create a
life filled with greaterpurpose, self-awareness, and a
deep inner peace.
Through integrating the manyyears of knowledge and
professional experience, as wellas the wisdom of those who have
experienced trauma firsthand.

(00:44):
We'll combine psychologyaccelerated approaches.
Coaching and personal experienceto assist you, to learn, to grow
and to thrive.
I hope to empower you to createdeeper awareness and
understanding and strongerconnections with yourself and
with others, whilst also pavingthe way for those who have

(01:08):
experienced trauma and adversityto reduce their suffering and
become the very best versions ofthemselves.
In order to thrive.
Thank you so much for joining meon today's episode.
I'm super excited and gratefultoday to bring you our next

(01:28):
guest on the Growing TallPoppies podcast.
It's my absolute pleasure towelcome an amazing lady.
She has experienced considerabletrauma and adversity throughout
her life, and has so generouslyagreed to come and chat about
her professional and personalexperience and share her wisdom

(01:49):
with us.
So let me start by welcomingHepner.
Malisa is an LCSW in Oklahoma.
An author and podcast host ofEmotionally Unavailable podcast.
And let me tell you, it is anamazing podcast, so you should
definitely check it out.
And she overcame an extensivehistory of childhood trauma only

(02:10):
to get well into adulthoodbefore realizing trauma's,
significant lasting impact.
She reached burnout in everyarea of her life and experienced
profound darkness deciding togive healing one more chance.
She began moving the pieces ofher life.
She quit her job.
She started a podcast and openeda private practice, and she's

(02:34):
now teaching others how to ridthemselves of shame and find
unconditional love forthemselves and each other.
And I'm very excited to welcomeher here today.
So welcome, Malisa.

Malisa Hepner (02:48):
Thank you.
I'm really excited to be here.
I love the name of your show somuch.

Thank you.
It's funny because I have guestsfrom a number of different
countries on and they alwayssay, what's a tall poppy?
We don't use that term here.
And, and all different thingseverywhere.
I know.

Yeah.
I didn't know.
It wasn't until I had LisaKirkman from Australia on my
show and she taught me aboutlike Australians tall Poppy
syndrome.
So I was like, oh my God, I loveit.

So I'm excited 'cause you are definitely a tall
poppy and we wanna make surepeople like you and the other
amazing guests on our podcastcontinue to grow and shine their
light in the world because weneed more of you.
Thank you.
So can we start with you givingus just a brief introduction on

(03:43):
top of what I've already said ofwho you are and what you do in
the world?

Yeah.
I guess the easiest way to sayit is.
Well, some days I'm still tryingto figure out what that is, but
I think I'm I, I love to, tohave my show because, well, I'm
a Gemini and we love to talk.
And, um, I think for, I wouldsay most of my life, I felt

(04:10):
silenced.
I mean, I truly was as a child,and I think anyone in my
generation or older was becauseof the type of programming that
we received.
Most of us were raised tobelieve that the comfort of
others, it should be thepriority and never our own
comfort.

(04:30):
And so I think understandingthat and unraveling all of this
unconscious shame that I wasjust.
Filled with and self-hatred thatI would've never seen because I
was the person walking aroundgoing, you gotta love yourself.
You gotta love yourself.
I love myself because I was okaywith certain aspects of myself.
I think that I'm just kind of ata place where I'm really, really

(04:52):
locked into my purpose on thisearth.
I, I was kind of lucky, I saythis a lot because I, when I was
in college, I knew exactly why Iwas there because since I was
like four years old, I had thisknowing, which I'm just now
feeling even more confident tospeak on because I would be

(05:13):
like, well, I felt like I knew,or, water it down.

Yeah, of course.
But

truly I had a knowing that the things I was
experiencing was going to impactthe way I move in the world
positively, and that my storywas going to help others.
So that's kind of what I'm doingis living in my purpose and just
finding new ways to connect withother humans and show them that

(05:37):
there is a better way and thatthere is profound light on the
other side of darkness.

Oh, thank you for sharing.
I love that so much.
There's so much of what you saidthat, yeah, I'd love to unpack.
Firstly, I'm a Gemini as well,so

Oh, fellow Gemini.
I love it.
I love it.
You get it, honey.
That's why you were having techissues.
'cause Mercury's in retrogradeand we have a lot of Mercury.

Oh, we'll share the blame on that one.
Yeah.
So I noticed that you said thatyou just had this knowing inside
of you that you just knew.
That regardless of what you weregoing through, you were born to
live your purpose and you weregonna do something with
everything you'd gone through.

Mm-hmm.

And the other thing is, so you are a social
worker.
And I'm a clinical psychologistbackground and is so
interesting.
And most of the people Iinterview are professionals who
are helping professionals.
And isn't it interesting that weare taught that we can't show

(06:49):
the real part of ourselves.
We have to be this professionalon this pedestal and everything
has to be fine.
Mm-hmm.
And yet, what you and I are bornto do is, is to be who we really
are.
Be true, be authentic, and sharethat to guide others in the

(07:10):
world and let them know that youcan go through all sorts of
shit, but you can also be okay.

Absolutely.
I feel like that's probably thereason so many mental health
professionals are burned out athigh rates is not just because
we're carrying other people'sweight.
It is because we're having toshow up inauthentically and,
recite instead of connect.
And I was, if I'm being ahundred percent honest, because

(07:39):
of the code of ethics around,you know, my LCSW, I was
terrified to start a privatepractice because I didn't want
to phone it in.
But I felt like that's what theexpectation is, that I can sit
here and I am the professionaland I, and you know, I just
didn't wanna do that.
And whenever I quit that, myschool counseling job and

(08:02):
started my podcast, I made acommitment.
Me and me.
That's who you're getting.
And I have told every one of myclients.
When I meet them, like it is notmy credentials that make me a
phenomenal therapist.
It is the fact that I have donethis work myself, and I am so
full of self and the knowingvery intimate details of myself,

(08:27):
that now when other people talk,I can hear their shame and pain
and fear and blame and doubt andself-hatred.
And that is only from knowingmyself so well.
And I think I felt really luckytoo because I had this whole
spiritual awakening during myhealing at the beginning of it.

(08:47):
And as I was I would sayactually, like I, I was having
more spiritual awakenings than Iwas emotional healing at first.
Hmm.
But the combination of the twohas really allowed me to I guess
it's like what we preach, likethe more love and compassion you
can offer to yourself.

(09:08):
For being so messy, the more youcan offer that to anybody else.
And so I really do connect onthis very personal level.
I let them know, look, I'm gonnavape in session.
I'm gonna cuss, I'm going toshare personal details of my
life, because that's the wayI've always done it.

(09:29):
I, I hear people be like, everytime I say something, then they
have to say, well, in my life.
And that used to freak me out.
I'd be like, oh, people don'tlike that.
That's just the way, like,that's the only way I know how
to relate to others, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so I let them know,you're, you're, I'm gonna self
disclose a lot.
It's not like I'm gonna tellthem in real time, I'm fighting
with my husband.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
But like, I'm gonna let themknow.

(09:49):
Like, I get that.
And for me, it's been a verybeautiful experience because
they, make me love being atherapist because watching them
reach this level of peace that Ihave also found, man, what a
life that I get to like, watchthem evolve and grow and

(10:09):
transform.
And I'll just go back to like,yeah.
Because I, I am sitting inalignment with exactly who I am
and what I'm supposed to bedoing.

And I can see that, and even as you were
saying that you, it's, youembrace it and embellish that
whole thing.
You are walking your talk and Ilove that so much.
And, and I honestly believe thatwe all should be doing that, as
you said, within the code ofethics and with good boundaries.
Not sharing, you know,significant things that Right.

(10:41):
Don't feel okay.
But more to get that deepconnection with our clients.
Mm-hmm.
So they get that.
We get it.
Yeah.
Instead of us carrying thisshame.
I know I've done it for so longmyself, and it all switched when
I thought stuff this, you needto be real.

(11:02):
Yeah.
We need to show up when we letgo of that shame.

Mm-hmm.
And

we can say, no, I get it at a deep level because
I've been there and I've donethe work.

Mm-hmm.
And we

give them hope.
I think that you can get throughthis.

Yeah.
Because I'm also really quick tobe like, especially if I'm
talking to someone who's havingrelationship issues, I'm very
fast to be like, well, I was thepsycho in my relationship.
So as somebody who used to dothis, let me tell you what my
perspective was.
Because victim consciousness wasnot anywhere on my radar.
Okay.
I actually created this identityof no victimhood, right?

(11:48):
Like just very masculine energy.
And certainly didn't realizethat I had created a real
victimization within myself.
In the way that I viewed all ofmy interactions and even just
where I felt like I fit inpeople's lives.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so, you know, I'm, whena professional and don't like,

(12:11):
underestimate the power insomebody who is viewing you as
an authority in this moment,getting down to the earth with
them and saying I mean, I'm apsycho formally, so let me just
give you a little perspective.
There is power in that and theconnection that happens around

(12:32):
that level of truth andvulnerability.
It's it's unmatched.
Like no wonder people's livesare transforming because all it
takes is someone else saying, Isee you, I hear you.
I'll hold you in this.
Like no judgment.
'cause they know absolutely.
I'm not judging nothing, youknow, like, I get it, I get it.

(12:52):
And I'm honest that it's notlike I'm anywhere near perfect
today.
Like I'm still cussing peopleout when I get too upset.
Like, I'm still doing stuff thatI did as, as this former version
of myself who, you know, that'sbeen the biggest journey for me
is understanding nothing in thatway is gonna change that
significantly.
Yes it is.
Because there was all theseinternal shifts and I have a lot

(13:15):
of tools at my disposal now.
So like, yeah, I don't act likea psycho all the time unless you
ask my husband, But like.
It happens.
And I'm really okay with that.
I don't want to do that.
It's not like I'm condoning badbehavior, but I also know this
is my cross to bear is that I'm,I have some reactivity still

(13:36):
left in me, but I'm also reallyexcited to be able to hold this
fire that I found.
And there's times when that fireis beneficial.
I'm a fierce advocate, so I haveto be fiery and it's not always
going to be used correctly.
And that's just me as a human,you know?

Yes.
And I think that being willingto share our own humanity is one
of our greatest gifts.
That we are real, we are openand we get it.
And that is what makes thedifference to your clients.
Yes.
To our clients.
So tell me, um.

(14:15):
When I introduced you, we talkedabout how you had done all the
work and yet you still felt likenothing was changing.
And then tell me about thatrevelation of what happened when
you realized, I have to try onemore time.
What was happening then?

After I quit my job and I started my podcast and
then work was over.
'cause I was working in aschool.
So, um, after the end of thatschool year, I was just like,
I'm not doing that anymore.
Mm-hmm.
Um, on my show, I uh, thank youfor being a Gemini.
'cause you're gonna understandhow it's very hard to abbreviate
stories, so I'm not going to,

Just give us the whole thing.

Okay.
So I'm on Facebook and I'm justbeing bored looking on Facebook,
and I see on the people you mayknow a girl.
And I didn't know exactly whoshe was, so I looked to see who
our mutual friend was and Ifigured, oh, okay.
I think this is someone myhusband's related to because I
had just accepted a friendrequest from her brother.

(15:17):
Something was very loud in meand said, go look.
And so I was looking at her pageand her only public post was
about her own mental healthjourney and my show's called
Emotionally Unavailable and Iwas, you know how hard it is in
the beginning to get guests.
Oh yeah.
Um, and so I reached out and Iwas like, I have a feeling you

(15:39):
have a story I need to hear.
Turns out she was a socialworker in another state.
Wow.
Having gone through her ownhealing journey, working with
this phenomenal social workerwho wrote a book and developed a
program called Finding Peace.
And his book is the FindingPeace Workbook.
And the reason this book, andI'm so serious, like this guy

(16:01):
has my loyalty for life becauseI will tell everyone,'cause I'm
not gonna take the credit formyself.
This book changed my life.
Okay.
But the reason it changed mylife really is because it breaks
shame down into differentarchetypes and it, there's some
somatic work woven in there too.

(16:21):
Because I started breaking downthe narratives that were being
spoken in my head.
Mm-hmm.
And that was the crux of all ofmy problems.
I thought truly, I thought I wasbecoming schizophrenic, like
other members of my familybecause the self-talk was so
loud.
I.
Do not for one minute believe itwas dissociative identity.

(16:42):
I believe it was my self-talk,and it was these different
archetypes coming out because itwas nothing I could really
identify except for like, you'rea loser.
You're the, like, your kids arebetter off without you.
That was easy to pinpoint.
But it wasn't until sheintroduced just a little bit of
information on the show that Iwas like, huh, my subconscious

(17:03):
allowed some of those narrativesto slow enough to where I could
see like, oh, you're right.
This is my royal, this is myjudge, this is my this, you
know, like every single thoughtI had.
Throughout the day because I wasa huge overthinker and I was,
what I know now is that I wasintellectualizing and analyzing
every single one of theexperiences in my life with zero

(17:23):
idea of how to experience afeeling.
Mm.
I didn't know how to feel and itsounds so crazy, but that's the
work that now I know this is allof us.
And so, yeah.
Um, that book changed my lifeand then I had her on again and
I was having like a really roughday.
So she like basically justplayed therapist with me and

(17:44):
went through the whole processof find there, finding peace
method with me.
My, and I don't know, that wasthe jumpstart for everything
because.
It gave me back control, and Istarted to realize, oh, okay,
I'm just not in my heart.
I gotta get in my heart.
I gotta learn how to feel stuff.
And once I got control over mybrain, that was it.
I, there's no looking back.

(18:04):
I, and now I have full control.
There's things that come up,like I, I'm really open about
the fact that I have PMDD.
So every cycle, yeah, I ovulateand then three days later, up
until I start.
So we're looking at 10, 11 daysof it.
It gets worse gradually everyday, and that will cause some
overthinking.
I don't freak out about itanymore.

(18:26):
Mm-hmm.
I'll be like, oh, why is thatcoming up?
Or there are days that I'm like,I don't have time for this.
We're not doing this.
I try not to be dismissive ofmyself, but, you know, it
happens.
But like, yeah, that truly, thatis, that was the difference.
It gave me everything I needed.
And then of course, honestly, I,I have to say, I guess really I
believe my show saved me toobecause I, the conversations,

(18:49):
first of all, for the first timein my life I was connecting with
everyone on this really intimatelevel, whereas before, and I
feel like this is more womenthan men.
Mm-hmm.
Um, were really programmed tosocialize and connect through
like gossip and complaining.
And that was.

(19:09):
All of my relationships, all ofthem, every one of them.
That's how we connected.
We just complained talked aboutother people behind their back,
you know, things like that.
And so, you know, learning whatit felt like to get to go deep
with people.
I mean, it really just opened meup.
And that had been something Iwas so afraid of forever, was

(19:32):
being vulnerable.
I mean, and that's, I rememberhow many times on my show I
would start to like, saysomething and that, you know,
that feeling where I'm like, oh,it's scary.
And I it so it feels likeembarrassment.
And so like I'll always saylike, oh, I'm having a thing
about telling this, but I'mgonna do it anyway.
You know, I'm so open and realon there in a way that.
Every day.

(19:52):
Like, I'm growing still becauseI find new things that like, are
hard to be vulnerable about, youknow?
Yeah.
But yeah, that's, I mean, if Iwere gonna say anything, I
always say it's that book.
I mean, and Jenny, hi Jenny, Ilove you.
But like the book I, Troy Loveis the person who wrote it, and
it just it came along at theexact time I needed it to,

oh, I'm gonna put that in the show notes.
So it was Finding Peace,

the Finding Peace Workbook.
And then, I mean, he has a wholewebsite and stuff that you can
purchase the Finding Peacecourse off of and things like
that.
I personally didn't need thatbecause this was the last shift
I really needed, because I couldlearn to regulate my body.
I didn't know how to get outtamy brain, you know?

Oh, I know exactly what you mean as far as we
intellectualize it.
And after going through traumaor having.
Lots and lots of it.
We shut down at least one of ourthree brains.
The head, the heart, the gut,and usually it's the heart.
Brain.
'cause it's too painful to feel.
And yes, having you express thatso beautifully and say, no, I

(21:01):
knew that I needed to feel,gosh, doesn't it make a
difference?
It's like this foreign thing.
It's like, oh, this is new.
Oh, and then that vulnerabilityshame comes in when you start to
express things.
But I'm so pleased that you keptgoing and you have used your
show to help other people dothat as well.

(21:23):
That's amazing.

Thank you.

Love it.
So when you look at all thethings that you've been through,
like lots of childhood trauma,what do you think the key things
for you were as far as thetrauma and the lessons from that
trauma?

Like in hindsight?

Yeah.

Yeah.
Hmm.
Good question.
No one's ever asked that.
Okay.
So I'm gonna answer in the waythat I think you mean, and if
not just course correct.
Okay.

All good.
You answer it how you like,because I love to ask this.
It's not normally how I wouldask it, but see what comes out.
I love that.
Yeah.

I think for me in this moment, right here, right
now mm-hmm.
Looking back at all of that,it's, see this is such a good
question'cause I'm feelingemotional, so it's done
something.
I think I'm so open andcompassionate.

(22:42):
About my experiences and mycaregivers experiences being
where I am now and recognizingthe humanity in myself, which
allows me to connect to thehumanity, not just like with
myself or other people, but eventhough all of, well, most of my

(23:06):
family is gone, but I connect totheir humanity even now.
And so I think I really have tosay like, I know it was all for
a purpose, and I don't like tosay things like that because I
used to get really triggeredwhen people offered, as a
platitude, everything happensfor a reason.

(23:29):
Oh, okay.
And so if me saying thattriggers anyone, I, I'm sitting
with you in that, but just holdon for a second because what I'm
saying is.
I'm grateful for the profounddarkness that I found myself in
because you can't ever reach thelevel of peace that I have found

(23:49):
if you haven't had an equivalentamount of dark.
So looking back, I think I don'tthink that the way those
experiences shaped me is anydifferent than anybody else on
this earth.
I think we come to our woundinga little bit differently, but I

(24:10):
don't think we're that differentand I see far more similarities
between myself and every otherhuman on this planet.
Then I do difference and it tooka little while and some paradigm
shifting.
Mm-hmm.
To see like we truly are justprojecting our own reality.

(24:31):
And also mirrors for oneanother, and feeling that my
purpose on this earth is tobring the light into the lives
of people who are hurting andshow them how to find their own
light.
Like I'm holding a flashlightfor you right now.
Mm-hmm.
While you figure out how to workyours, you know?
Yeah.
And so I really feel like, itdoesn't require the level of big

(24:55):
T trauma that I experienced to.
End up with the exact samewounding every one of us knows
betrayal.
I, I believe that the biggestbetrayal that any of us face is
the first time the mask of aparent falls off and we see
they're not superhuman.
Mm-hmm.
And it's the first time thatyou're shaken to your core.

(25:18):
You can't feel safe if thisperson can't save you from a
bank robber or lift a car off ofyou when you realize they're not
this superhero that you created.
With your filter.
Yeah.
Them to be, it's the scariestthing on earth.
We all know betrayal.
We all know neglect because noone, and I will stand by those

(25:39):
words.
No one in my generation or olderreceived an ounce of education
about how to sit withdisappointment that nobody's
ever walked us through reallypivotal emotional, developmental
milestones.
No one.
So you have a neglect woundthat's just as big as mine.

(26:01):
We all have abandonment woundsbecause we were taught to self
abandon.
So maybe your parents never leftyou, but they sure taught you
how to self abandon.
So I would venture to say thatless Gen Z has received that
type of parenting because we'vebeen given a lot better
information.

(26:22):
But.
There's plenty of us out therewho are willing to say, I did
that to my kids too.
I'm a, I'm like a Xennial.
I'm only like the last threemonths of Gen X and I'm a, you
know, a, an elder millennial.
But like that, that oldest childof mine, he received the same
stuff I got.
Was I beating him?
No, but was I criticizing him todeath?
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
You know, and and moreimportantly, viewed him as a

(26:45):
direct extension and reflectionof myself.
So what was I teaching him tocare more about appearance and
the comfort of others thananything that he needed.
So I really believe that we areall the same.
And when we can understand thatlife it's infinite.
It's so good.

(27:05):
It's better because, you know,like it's scary to feel so much
opposition with everyone else.
And now I just feel so muchconnection.
I'm just waiting for people tokind of like join me, you know?
Mm-hmm.

That was a great, great answer to the question.
Well, thank you.
I was like, this is what I got,baby.
If it's not good, tell

me.
I'll, I'll say, you know, wecan, we can phrase it a
different way.

No, no.
We want you raw and real and,and sharing things.
So you talked about how youdefinitely don't like to say to
people, everything happens for areason.
And I so hear you on that.
But isn't it interesting thatafter we've been through the
trauma and come done all thework, didn't just wake up one

(27:51):
day and it was fixed, done thework and continue to do the work
and process things that we canstart to see that there are
gifts in what we've beenthrough.
So yes.
Okay.
It didn't happen for a reason,but it's taught us a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.
'cause we've chosen to turn thataround in whatever way we
choose.
We could have ignored it ofcourse.
Right.
That's what people do and won'tget the lessons right.
Yeah.
You know, and I'm sure No,absolutely.

And I think, even if it's not necessarily like,
um, everything happens for areason or you can't like
pinpoint,'cause I personally cankind of see how all the pieces
came together, you know?
But if you're not there, surelyyou can understand that like,

(28:47):
like I wouldn't be a healer if Ihadn't had to heal myself, and
so I'm grateful to have learnedthings the hard way even.
Mm-hmm.
Because.
It took scraping down to therawest levels of who I was to be
able to connect so beautifullywith others and to see like,

(29:10):
what does light me up and whatdoes peace feel like?
But if you don't have anythingto compare it to, like it's,
it's hard to go, oh, this isgood or this isn't good.
And I think too, this is almostan addition to what I said
before, but I think too thatjust us learning how to trust

(29:32):
ourselves and our intuition, itreally kind of takes that
unraveling of.
This was, and this is, and thegratitude in the middle, because
now I, I am connecting withmyself so differently that, I
mean, this part for me at least,is still, um, a little tricky

(29:53):
and something I still have towork really hard on is that
connection to self, to wherelike, I can trust myself to make
decisions.
Because man, that before it waslike everything, every single
choice, every choice, and I meanthe smallest choice felt like
there's a very right choice anda very wrong choice.

(30:14):
And the right one would lead toreward and the.
Wrong one would be Eternaldamnation.
And I mean that so hard, likeeven I've said this before, but
potty training, my oldest child,I was like, if I don't do this
right, he's gonna be JeffreyDahmer.
I just know it, like everythingfelt so heavy and I just didn't
trust myself.
And that's a, that's a byproductof being told children are to be

(30:37):
seen and not heard.
Yes.
And rub some dirt on it and walkit off.
When you're left to kind offigure stuff out on your own, in
your little baby brain andyou're using this little filter
with very limited informationmm-hmm.
That's the kind of stuff thatyou figure out on your own and
you're so used to beingcompliant that if someone's not

(30:57):
telling you how to do something,you can't figure it out on your
own.
So I, again, like figuring thatpart out has brought so much
gratitude too that I don't know.
Also, I think that anybody whohas experienced suicidal
ideation.
To the level that I did where Iactually created a plan.

(31:18):
Or even without a plan.
When you get to a place whereyou're happy to be alive, you're
not just making it, you're likeliving in your peace and in your
truth and in your abundance.
I can't help but be grateful forthe now, but for all of that
too.
Because you can't create a lifethat you're in love with,

(31:41):
without knowing what you're notin love with, you know?

Yes.
So really coming from that, youknow, it's that pleasure and
pain.
You really need to feel the painand move away from the pain.
Mm-hmm.
To know what you're movingtowards.
Yes.
Yeah.
So would it be okay to share,and you might say, no, I don't
wanna go back there.
We've talked about it a bit moreabout that time of really severe

(32:07):
darkness.
Would that be okay?

Yeah, that's fine.

Yeah.

Okay.
So what happened?
I had had depression off and onmy whole life.
It was sneaky.
It was weird.
It's hard to describe Prior tothis really bad time, I think it
was a normal thing, especiallyfor somebody with C-P-T-S-D,
right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, I, I was just reallyreactive and lived in survival
mode 24 7.
But when this happened, I hadbeen in a job role that, and it

(32:37):
wasn't like because I wasworking with kids, it was just
the buildings I was in.
Just toxic people, right?
Yeah.
It was sucking the life out ofme.
Mm-hmm.
Because number one, if you workin education, you get no
validation.
Okay?

Mm-hmm.

Yes.
I didn't know how to exist orfeel pride or love for myself
unless someone else was tellingme I should.
So I relied heavily on externalvalidation.
Mm-hmm.
So I wasn't getting any, andthat was rule number one.
Like I need to be told I'm doinga good job every now and then,
my God.

(33:13):
So that really started it.
And I was in education a totalof seven years.
Um, I still work and have alwaysvery part-time doing bereavement
work in hospice, but it's fromhome.
I just make phone calls and dosome other stuff.
But, I had left hospice fulltime to go into education
because I got, I, it just got towhere like I was getting older

(33:35):
and I didn't really feel safegoing into stranger's homes.
I'd seen too much at that point,you know, and I was like I don't
wanna do this anymore.
Love the work.
Did not enjoy like,environmental stuff,
environment.
So I moved into education.
It was probably the only roleI've ever done professionally
that I felt so stupid in.

(33:56):
I didn't have a single clue whatI was doing.
Um, and I was getting no, nohelp and just the things that I
felt I needed to thrive in awork environment.
And I was surrounded by a bunchof toxic women.
Mm-hmm.
And women are mean when they'reunhealed.
Okay.
So it was a lot of drama that Ididn't wanna be in, you know,

(34:17):
mm-hmm.
Fast forward those last coupleof years.
I shouldn't have stayed the lastyear that I was there.
Whenever I actually like hit thepinnacle of the mental health
crisis.
I should have left after theyear prior, but I was scared.
I wanted to do all the thingsI'm doing now the year prior,
but I was just scared.
So I got really uncomfortable.
I'm kind of a person who has tolike get really discontent to

(34:40):
move.
Yes.
So honestly it was just.
Shame.
Always telling.
Like, because I wasn't perfectis what I understand now.
'cause I was making mistakes.
Like, and I, it just literallygot to a place where I felt like
the children were better offwithout me before I would tell

(35:01):
myself a messed up mom is betterthan no mom.
Whenever I would have likestruggles because I lost my mom
and I, it was easy to workthrough that.
Like, well, your kids need you.
But it got to where I felt likeI was the center of all of their
hurt and pain and struggles.
And it was really just becauseI, my reactivity I carried so

(35:25):
much shame over how reactive Iwas.
And I was especially reactivewith my children because they
triggered my shame.
So it could be little thingslike, um.
Well, my youngest is my onlydaughter, but when she's truly
gotten the worst version of meup until now.
Because I just, I was so tiredof life and felt not enough and

(35:46):
too much all at the same time.
Yeah.
Felt like I had the weight ofthe world on my shoulders alone
to, and nobody to help me carryit.
And felt at my core,fundamentally unlovable.
Okay.
I think we're all strugglingwith those narratives, but, Hmm.
So if something happened withone of my kids and they're
crying, I would be so dismissivebecause I didn't like the

(36:08):
feelings that were coming up inme.
And any feelings would start allof the narratives up here.
And it was just things like, um.
You don't even know how to takecare of your kid.
Like, you're not even like, gohug your kid.
They need you.
And then the other, well, ifthey hadn't done this, then I
wouldn't have done this.
You know, and it was a bunch ofback and forth.

(36:28):
So honestly, it was the noise inmy head that was just driving me
crazy.
I was driving myself crazy,victimizing myself by believing
that, uh, I loved everyonearound me more than they loved
me.
Mm-hmm.
Um, that pretty much anyonecould.
I could come or go in anybody'slives.

(36:49):
I felt important to people, butI felt like I was only in their
life to hear them and hold them.
Then I, I started unraveling thefact that I created that on
purpose to keep myself safe.
I surrounded myself with a bunchof emotionally unavailable
people to keep myself safe.
I didn't wanna talk about me.

(37:09):
If they asked, I'd get mad.
I'd change the subject.
They could only ask in a verycertain way.
And I believed that to be okay,appropriate to be like,
shouldn't have said that, but itwas just that kind of
reactivity, just all the time.
Just just a constant like verbalvomit.
And then especially like as awife, like this is my number one

(37:32):
area of struggle is.
Intimate relationships.
Mm-hmm.
Um, now it's like he's just mysafe person, so I just kind of
take everything out on him andit doesn't look anything the way
it used to.
But, you know, I don't feelshame over it.
I'm aware of it and I work onit, but like before it was bad.
And so I would look at him and Iwould see the pain on his face

(37:55):
for my behavior, and it wouldjust reinforce that narrative of
like, everyone in your life atthis point would really be
better off if you weren't here.
Like they were the reasons Iheld on at other points in my
life, and now it was them thatmade me feel like they weren't
doing this.
This was all myself, but it wasmy relationship with them.

(38:17):
That would make me feel likeit's probably just time to quit
this.
Like, life really sucks.
Nothing's really going your way.
I felt stuck too.
Yeah.
I was very terrified because I.
And this is something I stillwork through.
You know, I got to a place wheremy income was decent and like I
bought.

(38:38):
My dream car on my own.
Like I did, you know, like Iused my own credit.
I had repaired my credit.
I mean, I had had so manyfinancial issues in the past.
I was terrified to let thesecurity of that income level go
and it, I've worked through myworth being tied to income or
what I can and can't provide formy children, you know?

(39:00):
But at the time it was like, youcan't, you gotta have something
very secure lined up and what isthere secure, lined up that, to
go from where I was to what I'mdoing now, nothing.
I mean, it took a leap of faith,yeah.
Um, but that was really, thosewere the biggest issues is I was
scared to leave the job.
I knew that was killing me and Iwas just really mean to myself.

(39:22):
I, and just constantly tellingmyself how bad I was at being a
human.

Definitely a dark time.
In your life?
Very

dark.
I mean, that was all I thoughtabout from the time I went to
sleep.
The time I woke up, I, all Ithought about was how much I
hated my life.

That's a huge burden to carry.

It was so heavy.
It was so heavy.
I felt the weight of it.

So carrying all of that, and then that was the time
where you did find that aroundthe peace and the archetypes,
the shame archetypes mm-hmm.
Was all mm-hmm.
Following that, and that's whathelped you move out of it.

Yeah.
So I, well so, um, the pinnacleof the mental health crisis was
October of 2023.
I kind of white knuckled afterthat into the holiday season.
And then January, I was like,what am I going to do?
I know I'm no longer going to dothis, but I don't know how I'm
gonna get where I'm trying togo.

(40:17):
So I actually kind of starteddoing creative projects.
I opened a little online storethat never sells a darn thing.
I'm hoping that'll change.
But I started designing littleZodiac t-shirts for fun.
They were hilarious to me.
And so I literally just starteddoing creative things that I
didn't know I had the potentialto do.
I had no idea that I had anyounce of creativity, um, because

(40:40):
I just never felt artistic.
I can sing I can kind of dance,but like artsy stuff.
And I've always been a goodwriter, but like, I just didn't
feel like I could art, yeah.
So I just started doing creativestuff and then someone I knew
had beautiful children's storieswritten, but.

(41:01):
Didn't wanna, like, they werevery intimidated of the process
of looking for an illustrator.
Mm-hmm.
And I was like, honey, youcould, they like, there's all
these options, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
So I decided to show her it waspossible by taking a schoolwide
lesson that I had created onbullying.
It was the dumbest little story,I swear.
And turn it into a children'sbook and used AI to do the

(41:24):
illustrations.
Mm-hmm.
And I self-published it.
I did all the things all bymyself to show her, and then it
just sparked and I just kept.
Because I thought the storyitself was really stupid.
And'cause it really was gearedtowards educators, like the type
of stuff we have to talk to kidsabout.
Yeah.
But I wanted to show people likethat you can do this.
So I, I kept going and that,that helped because I could get

(41:46):
into a flow state.
So from January to May, it wascreative projects that I could
pop.
I mean, there was wailing by meat least three hours every
single day.
'cause I just was full of justpain and I didn't know what to
do with it.
So I would put my little noisecanceling headphones in, listen
to the worst, most depressingplaylist while working, singing

(42:10):
my heart out, crying all thetime and just like working, just
working all the time.
Just trying to figure out like,what are things that I can do
that's.
Spark any kind of light in me.
And it was really touch and go.
I knew I wasn't gonna die, but Ialso didn't know how I was gonna
live.
I was still really depressed.
And it was a minute by minute,like survival strategy.

(42:33):
But then I started my podcast atthe end, like my first episode
aired on April 29th, which isactually the day.
So I, that's the day that my momdied, is April 29th.
Mm-hmm.
And so I try, if I'm gonna do abig project to do it on that
day, my very first book OwningMy Crazy, where it's some of my
story I release that on thatanniversary too.

(42:55):
So I, I really try to stick tothat.
It makes me feel good, you know?
Yay.
And it's a connection point withher.
But, um, I did that and it just,the joy that I was getting from
it, and I had a vision and Ijust went after it, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And then thank God, because nowlike I've met all these people
who have enriched my life and.

(43:17):
That's really kind of how itwas.
It was just like white knucklein it until I got the
information that set me free.

That's fabulous.
And I mean, knowing what we knowabout the brain, of course that
opening it up for thatcreativity helped you process in
a different way and usedifferent part of your brain
that was actually allowed tounlock, which is why it was that
almost obsessive hours a day ofallowing that free flow and that

(43:47):
free flow of emotions.

Yes.

Creativity.
Very powerful.

Yeah, it was amazing.
It really was.
Even though I'd be crying reallyhard over a frustration,'cause I
had zero coping skills, that wasthe other thing.
Zero.
Every little minor inconveniencewas a really big deal in my
world.

Mm.
Yeah.
And look how far you've comewhen you look back to those days
and really, you know, what'd yousay it was in 2023?
Not that long ago.

No, not that long ago at all.

You've come so far.
So would you say there's anyspecific qualities or personal
attributes that you see as beingkey to move from trauma into
post-traumatic growth?

For me, um, it really happened.
All the shifting made so muchsense When I got really into
doing these rituals around theNew Moon and the full Moon, and
for the first time ever I did anidentity audit and said.

(44:56):
This is you come up with thisalter ego, this is who I wanna
be, right?
And up till then I had beendoing a lot of future self
journaling, trying to rewire mybrain.
Yeah.
But not knowing how toexperience feelings.
So you know that it wasn't goingwell.
Challenging.
Yeah.
It was not good.
It wasn't good.
But I could see on paper versuswhat I've been future self

(45:18):
journaling about, prettysimilar.
Mm-hmm.
And I had an epiphany.
This was, this was kind of thefirst aha in the spiritual world
for me.
Mm-hmm.
It felt very spiritual to, tofeel this.
But um, was, I'm writing downall these attributes and then
you kind of see where theincongruence is.
Like, why am I not already likethat?
What am I doing now that'spreventing me from being that?

(45:41):
And all of a sudden I realizedI'm already.
I'm this girl like, excuse mylanguage, like I am a badass.
Like I am this, I am that.
What am I doing?
Like why am I trying so hard tobe somebody completely
different?
Like in my mind, the one thing Iwasn't was calm and I thought to

(46:06):
be or to, to have the life thatI was dreaming of, that I had to
be zen and like a monk, honey,the monks have no stress.
They're out in the wildmeditating and good for them.
That's great.
That's their path.
But like I got lots of stress.
Mm-hmm.
And so, yeah, that was thebeginning and the deepening of

(46:29):
that understanding.
Every time I get like theopportunity to understand that
better where I've come to is thenumber one thing that we all
need.
Is acceptance of ourselves.
Yes.
So when you get to the placewhere you understand you are so
good, exactly who you are.

(46:51):
Like you don't need to be anyonedifferent.
Maybe you need to un become orunlearn a few things.
Like we all do.
We've all got some crappyprogramming from somewhere.
Like, you know, that's fine,definitely.
But like you don't have to shiftyour whole identity.
And I keep hearing people talkabout like, I'm trying to heal,
I'm trying to heal, I'm tryingto heal, or I'm trying to become

(47:14):
the person I want to be.
And I'm like, man, we're gettingit.
Wrong guys.
There's not a destination, likewhen you sit and you get really
comfortable with the fact that.
You are so imperfect and you'regonna get a thousand things a
day wrong and still be able tohold yourself and love yourself
and look in the mirror and haveso much respect for yourself.

(47:38):
Admiration, even like theconfidence that is born from
this place of worthiness thatI've never felt in my entire
life is insane.
Like my body image issues usedto be so bad.
Now that's been a process oflike working on my relationship
with my body.
But man, when that switchflipped and I got to a place

(48:01):
where I was like, who cares?
Like I, oh my gosh.
Like, you know, I fixed my haira little bit.
I'm like, oh my God, I'm lookingso good.
And it's just, wow.
It's the feeling that you, youbring from inside out where you
know.
Like the world needs you andthere's not another me on this

(48:22):
entire planet, even though we'reall like connected and so much
alike.
I am the one piece of thispuzzle.
There's not another piece that'sgonna fit just like me.
And just understanding, like Isaw, I wish I could remember who
I saw this from on Instagramyesterday.
They said it the most beautifulway that I've ever seen it said.

(48:44):
But it was just about likehealing isn't about reaching
anything.
It's about sitting in yourmessiness, in your darkness, in
your rudeness, in yourreactivity, in the time you
cussed at your kid, and juststill sitting there and been
like, shouldn't have done that.
But how can I do it better?
And just skip the shame.

(49:04):
Skip the blame, skip all of thatand just be like, Ooh, that
wasn't good.
That wasn't good.
I am sorry.
I've learned how to say thatbetter.
I do suck at it still a littlebit because it, it's the worst
feeling ever to like have toacknowledge it.
And it's scary even to havevulnerable conversations like
that.
I'm still scared all the time totell people the truth, like

(49:24):
about whatever the thing is.
I mean, it's not likeeverything, but there are still
times every single day that Icatch myself wanting to stop
before I say something.
I'm grateful for the opportunityto feel that like icky feeling.
'cause it helps me connect tosomething in my body.
But when we can get to a placewhere we literally just go,

(49:45):
yeah, accountability isn't across.
I don't have to crucify myselfto hold myself accountable.
I understand I wanna be a goodhuman.
I am a good human.
I understand intimately whatkindness is and what love is.
I'm not going to try to hurtpeople.

(50:05):
That's not my intention.
This, I don't wanna be a badhuman, but I am going to do
things badly sometimes and asscary as it is for me to say
this,'cause I know how it'sreceived by some people, I don't
care.
I'm literally a hundred percentfine with the fact that I make a
bajillion mistakes every day.
And that I think is where we areall needing to get to.

Ugh.
Absolutely beautiful.
Honestly, you just went throughso many layers of things there
that we could talk for hours onthis stuff.
I love it.
So one of the things that'sreally.
There's a couple of things thatstands out for me is a lot of my

(50:49):
guests, in fact, nearly everyguest I've had on talks about
that journey from trauma topost-traumatic growth, that
spirituality being vital.
And I don't mean, you know, youfound God or something like
that.
Right.
Some people did and it's, it'sabout their Christianity, but
others, it's that spiritualexperience of something outside

(51:12):
yourself, greater than you,whatever it is.
Yes.
Whatever it is, is different foreveryone.
That spiritual side of things,but also, I loved what you were
saying about, which I see allthe time, people trying to go
back to who they used to be.

Yeah.
And

you nailed it in that it's No, it's about, we're
not gonna go back to who we usedto be because who we used to be
didn't have all the experiencesand the learnings and the
lessons and the gifts.
That we now have.
So it's about thatself-acceptance mm-hmm.
And self-awareness that youYeah.
Just said brilliantly that we'renever gonna be perfect.

(51:53):
'cause it's a, it's a neverending journey.

Yeah.

Well,

and it's hard sometimes when you get very
spiritual, like I am like I'm,I'm like a.
I use the word universe.
Mm-hmm.
For me, um, that just feels thebest for me.
Yeah.
I do feel that's what gets methrough the hard days.
'Cause I feel like I'm a part ofa blueprint that I do have a
purpose, uh, and I feelfundamentally supported by this

(52:18):
higher power that I calluniverse.
Like, there's no one's waitingfor me to make the wrong steps
so they can punish me.
No one's trying to banish mewith the outer darkness,
whatever the words are.
Mm-hmm.
No one's doing that.
I am here for a purpose and anyspiritual forces are only here
to help me achieve that purpose.

(52:38):
I feel really in alignment withthat purpose, but also, it's all
what we make it to be.
And yeah, I think, I think thatwe just.

(52:59):
Own it, mm.
Like.
Owning all of it is so mucheasier than judging any of it.
Because that's, do you know whatI mean about the accountability
cross that I'm talking about?
Yes.
Sometimes people don't, and I'mlike, man, you must not see your
perfectionist tendencies thenbecause Exactly.

Share

that.
Even healing, I would judge thehealing.
I'd be like, oh, you knew betterso you should have da, da.
And then, conversely, I used tomourn that I didn't have this
information sooner.
I was upset like all the time.
Like I would've done things sodifferently.
Of course, I would have, ofcourse I would have.
So would my parents.

(53:40):
Mm-hmm.
So would their parents.
We didn't receive thisgenerational trauma for no
reason.
Exactly.
So, yeah, it feels all veryintegral and important and a
part of what I'm supposed to dohere.
But yeah.
The spirituality stuff really isbig for me because of the
perspective it gives me.
Because I feel like, yes, thereare truths, but then there are

(54:02):
larger truths.
So for me, leaning into thelarger truths really keeps me
more grounded.
Because it's easy to take thingspersonally, especially when
you're so wounded, yes.
And so I'll sit in my littlewounding and let my feelings be
hurt, and then as soon as I feellike we've processed that, then
I just invite myself tounderstand that their stuff's

(54:26):
about them.
My stuff's about me.
They didn't do that because ofme, but I reacted this way
because of me,

and I think having that capacity to acknowledge our
wounding, but not.
Share from our wounding.
Mm-hmm.
So we have healing and weacknowledge there's still
wounds.
There's wounds that we're gonnacarry forever, but we can cover
those wounds and come from aplace that's really good and

(54:54):
helpful and giving to otherswithout coming from the gaping
wound.

Absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
And that

as a, a professional, working with other
people, social workers,psychologists, therapists,
coach, whatever, whatever, itdoesn't matter that showing up
authentically being real for ourclients is so important.
But we do so not from our gapingwound.

(55:25):
Mm-hmm.
That is the healthy side ofthings that we need to be
advocating for in the helpingprofessionals because the way
the mental health system isright now, it's not working.

I'm actually, I I, I've been putting my big girl
pants on and I've beensubmitting to speak at mental
health conferences.
Ooh.
And I've been doing it.
I submitted for a very bigconference.
I feel like I'm going to hearback anytime because they asked
for my resume today.
'cause I had forgotten to attachit to the submission.

(56:02):
I'm really hoping exciting, butwhat I'm trying to show people
is the community implicationsfrom one person.
Yes.
Because what I tell my clientsis when you change the world
around you changes and theripples, like my, the energy in
my house completely changed whenI changed, you know, of course.
Nobody's walking on eggshellsanymore.

No.

That, that alone changes the way they enter the
world.
And so.
When we can see how we fixedourselves and we extend that
kindness to others.
We learn how to release peoplethat are no longer in our best
interest, but from a place oflove it.

(56:42):
There's no drama.
There's no drama.
I will send you in peace.
You may not even know, I may noteven have a conversation with
you.
It just depends on the level ofthe relationship.
Whatever it is.
Absolutely.
I will send you in peace becauseyou are a human and you're just
as valuable as I am, but people,places, things, experiences, I

(57:03):
can have so much kindness andcompassion because I give that
to myself first.
Yes.
So I'm really trying to show themental health community A,
you're missing the mark.
Okay?
Mm-hmm.
You got to heal yourself andthen offer that healing to
others.
That's how we change the world.
I've been hearing the phrase NewEarth and I'm like, yes, I'm

(57:24):
here for that.
I, that's what I feel.
I'm creating the change, thepath forward.
Maybe I'm not gonna see it in mylifetime, but I will know that I
had a hand in that, because wehave to heal ourselves first.
We, most of us got into thisfield because of how codependent
we were.
Absolutely.
And we wanted to save the world.

(57:44):
Okay.
And our self sacrifice, selfsacrificing.

Absolutely.
People pleasing.
They're good girls that wealways had to be.
So,

exactly.

It's

classic.
We took care of everyone in ourfamily.
Let's go take care of the mentalhealth of the world too, honey.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And so I, you know, I'm gettingeven more bold about like my
approach with mental healthprofessionals where I say like,
baby, you are codependent.
And so as we heal those thingsin ourselves, it's so much
easier to heal others.

(58:15):
You know, give, offer them thetools that you used and share
your story.
Let's change the way we're doingthis because it's not just the
lack of funding that's creating.
And even if we could justfreaking help our little
emotionally unavailable societybecause we're all dismissing the
needs and, and the wants and thelove and the desire of others.

(58:38):
'cause we don't know how to sitwith our own discomfort.

Exactly.
So, you know,

if we can work on those things within ourselves,
you freely offer those to otherpeople.
'cause you know what it feelslike to receive it.
Mm-hmm.
And so, yeah, I'm gonna comeget, get some of my forgiveness.
Please just understand whatforgiveness really is.
It's not, you know, and I'm, andI'm not.
Talking about the major, majorstuff that people go through,

(59:04):
that's, you know, it's, it's onyour timeline when you can
release pain from yourexperiences.
I just because of a medium I hadon my show not that long ago,
released some real pain aroundmy narcissistic grandma that
raised me.
So, like it's a journey and it'sgonna unfold the way it unfolds
for each individual.
But when you can get down to thecore of who you are, love every

(59:27):
ounce of it have unconditionalpositive regard for self, which
sounds wild.
It sounded wild to me beforetoo, but it is true and it is
honorable, and it is peaceful,and it is beautiful.
It is abundant, it's flowing.
You wanna share those thingswith other people?
Definitely.

I've loved so much about what we've talked about
today, but I do know that we'vebeen chatting for a while.
So as we move to wrapping thisconversation up, where can our
listeners find out more aboutyou and find you online well,

Malisa Hepner (01:00:03):
I'm very active on Instagram@Malisa.Hepner.
Uh, I have a websiteempoweredwithMalisahepner.org.
I just released.
Today or yesterday.
My days are getting mixed upnow.
I did design this around Leoseason in mind because I'm gonna
start like with the astrologicalthemes, but the workbook itself

(01:00:25):
doesn't talk about astrology atall.
But I'm now creating kind oflike a monthly workbook.
Mm-hmm.
And this first one is calledSafe to Be Seen.
It's a self reclamation workbookabout just like, uncovering some
of the invisibility wounds.
It's just an instant download.
You can print it if you want to,but, um, there, it's, it's not
like this huge workbook, but youcould do this in an hour.

(01:00:47):
It's just like getting you intoa place of a better, like
emotional hygiene.
Mm-hmm.
There's a little bit of shadowwork, there's some mirror work,
there's a few little things likethat.
I'm very excited about it.
It's very affordable here.
I don't know even if I likewhere it converts to for other
countries, but, um, you know,for your listeners, if they.
Want a copy, I'll be happy tosend one for free.

Dr Nat Green (01:01:11):
Oh my goodness.
That's amazing.
What a generous offer.
Thank you, Malisa.
Absolutely.
So I put that in the show notesand Oh, I'm super excited.
I wanna go check everythingyou've let us know about today
out and really, really excited.
So thank you so much for comingon and sharing your story and

(01:01:32):
your wisdom with us.
I like to finish each episodewith a question.
Okay.
What do you think your youngestself would think of who you've
become and what you're doingnow?

I don't think she'd be surprised at all.
In fact, have you seen thattrend?
That was like, went to lunchwith my younger self?
Yes.
I participated in it because Iwasn't at first, but the author
of that poem came on TikTok andwas like, I wrote this poem in
the book of poems.
It's blown up.
And they're not giving mecredit.

(01:02:09):
And so I was like, okay, I'mgonna do the trend and tag her
and like, you know, give her theproper credit.
And I was like, what am I gonnasay though?
And then, and what I felt inthat moment was, ah, I
recognized you.
It was my higher self guiding methis whole time.
And so I think my younger selfand my highest self, well,

(01:02:32):
they're one for one thing.
But yeah, I don't think she'ssurprised.
I think she's like, I recognizeyou.
I knew I knew we would get here.
I mean, I'm living the vision,I'm not monetarily yet.
Don't play.
I'm not, I'm not gonna pretend.
Good that financially I'm whereI wanna be.
That's still a struggle.
Entrepreneurship is real.
But the life that I've designedfor myself, it's the life I'm in

(01:02:54):
love with.
And I don't think she'ssurprised.
I think she's like, I knew wecould do it.

Yeah.
And especially'cause at the verybeginning of our conversation,
you said you always knew

mm-hmm.

What you were going to do and that you were
here to live your purpose.
So here we are, full circle, allthe stuff that you've been
through and you are living yourlife on purpose.

Yeah.

You're amazing.
I'm so, thank you.
Grateful to have connected withyou.
It's been absolutely delightfuland I'm sure I've had such a

good time too.

Oh, our listeners are gonna love this
conversation.
I hope so.
Bye for now.
Bye.
Thank you for joining me in thisepisode of Growing Tall Poppies.
It is my deepest hope thattoday's episode may have

(01:03:51):
inspired and empowered you tostep fully into your
post-traumatic growth, so thatyou can have absolute clarity
around who you are, what mattersthe most to you, and to assist
you to release your negativeemotions.
And regulate your nervous systemso you can fully thrive.

(01:04:14):
New episodes are published everyTuesday, and I hope you'll
continue to join us as weexplore both the strategies and
the personal qualities requiredto fully live a life of
post-traumatic growth and tothrive.
So if it feels aligned to youand really resonates, then I
invite you to hit subscribe andit would mean the world to us.

(01:04:37):
If you could share this episodewith others who you feel may
benefit too, you may also findme on Instagram at Growing Tall
Poppies and Facebook, Dr.
Natalie Green.
Remember, every moment is anopportunity to look for the
lessons and to learn andincrease your ability to live

(01:04:59):
the life you desire and deserve.
So for now, stay connected.
Stay inspired.
Stand tall like the tall poppyyou are, and keep shining your
light brightly in the world.
Bye for.

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