June 2, 2025 • 61 mins
In this insightful and compelling episode of the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast, host Dr. Nat Green sits down with Dr. David Lee, a clinical psychologist and addiction recovery coach, with extensive experience in trauma and addiction recovery.
Dr David shares his personal journey of overcoming alcoholism, trauma, and the breakdown of his marriage, and how these experiences have shaped his approach to psychology and coaching. From struggling with alcoholism and professional setbacks to finding recovery through spirituality, therapy, and the 12-step program. He discusses the importance of lived experience, honesty, openness, and willingness in overcoming trauma.
Dr David also highlights his future ambitions, including developing a shadow work program and helping others through writing and public speaking, while emphasizing the continuous need for personal growth and spiritual connection.
Key takeaways include the importance of spiritual surrender, the value of lived experience in professional practice, and the essential qualities needed for personal growth, such as honesty, accountability, and courage. Tune in to discover how embracing one's vulnerabilities and doing the deep inner work can lead to a life of greater purpose, self-awareness, and inner peace.
02:24 David's Professional Background and Personal Journey
06:08 The Importance of Personal Inner Work
19:24 David's Dark Night of the Soul
25:14 The Path to Recovery and Spiritual Awakening
31:05 The First Steps of Surrender
31:46 A Powerful Moment of Realization
32:31 Guided Visualization and Staying on the Path
33:13 Understanding the Wounded Healer
34:20 Working with Clients and Recognizing Patterns
35:16 The Role of Relationships in Trauma
37:08 Exploring the Shadow and Personal Therapy
39:49 The Journey of Recovery and Professional Work
44:35 Future Vision and New Directions
51:10 The Importance of Honesty and Accountability
55:48 Final Thoughts and Reflections
With valuable insights from his personal and professional experiences, this episode serves as a beacon of hope and a practical guide for anyone working through trauma and seeking to thrive.
Connect with David
If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreen
Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.
Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Nat Green (00:01):
Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nat Green, and I'm so excited tohave you join me as we discuss
what it means to navigate yourway through post-traumatic
growth and not just survive, butto thrive after trauma.
(00:23):
Through our podcast, we willexplore ways for you to create a
life filled with greaterpurpose, self-awareness, and a
deep inner peace.
Through integrating the manyyears of knowledge and
professional experience, as wellas the wisdom of those who have
experienced trauma firsthand.
(00:44):
We'll combine psychologyaccelerated approaches.
Coaching and personal experienceto assist you, to learn, to grow
and to thrive.
I hope to empower you to createdeeper awareness and
understanding and strongerconnections with yourself and
with others, whilst also pavingthe way for those who have
(01:08):
experienced trauma and adversityto reduce their suffering and
become the very best versions ofthemselves.
In order to thrive.
Thank you so much for joining meon today's episode.
I'm super excited and gratefultoday to bring you our next
(01:29):
guest on the Growing TallPoppies podcast.
It's my absolute pleasure andprivilege to welcome an amazing
man who I've known for the lastfew years having met him through
a community of coaches andtherapists that we are connected
through.
He's experienced and overcomeconsiderable amounts of trauma
(01:50):
and adversity throughout hislife, and has very kindly agreed
to come and chat with us todayabout his personal and his
professional experience.
So let me start by welcomingDavid to chat with us today.
So welcome.
Dr.
David Lee, it's so great to haveyou here.
Dr David Lee (02:11):
My pleasure.
Nat thank you very much forhaving me.
I'm delighted to be here.
Thank you so much for invitingme to be on this wonderful
podcast, growing Tall poppies.
Really excited.
Dr Nat Green (02:22):
Thanks, David.
So let's start with you givingus a brief introduction of who
you are and what you do in theworld.
Dr David Lee (02:31):
Sure.
Yeah.
I think there are a number ofways I can answer that question.
Fundamentally, I'm David Lee.
I'm a human being who's beenthrough life experiences.
I'm a father, I'm a husbandhopefully a friend to, to a
number of people.
I'm somebody who is deeplycommitted, I think, to sharing
(02:52):
my own lived experience in a waythat can hopefully help other
human beings, not to justemphasize that my way is the
only way.
But I guess professionallyspeaking I'm a clinical
psychologist by background.
I'm from the uk.
(03:12):
I now live and work in Dubai inthe UAE.
I'm back here in the UK rightnow, visiting family.
But yeah, I trained in the uk.
I've been around for a littlewhile.
Trained in psychology, clinicalpsychology.
I went through the the NationalHealth Service here in the uk.
Then onward into the privatesector.
(03:32):
Worked with a variety ofdifferent, kind of client groups
outpatient, inpatient, communitybased private practice.
And I think I realized over timethat, my own lived experience
counts for more in a sense notsaying that, throw the baby out
(03:55):
with the bath water.
'Cause my psych psychologyexperience and training is
incredibly valuable.
But I think in certainly morerecent years, I've ventured down
a different path.
I'm still a psychologist, butI'm also a coach as well.
I guess a coach a speaker, awriter I don't know if I wanna
be so grandiose to give myselfthe title thought leader, but
(04:16):
looking to, inspire others or atleast invite others to consider
how their own lived experiencecan be helpful in a way.
I myself have lived experienceof recovery from addiction and I
guess trauma as well multiple,I.
Kind of addictions, but mainlyalcoholism.
(04:36):
And yeah.
And off the back of that,really, I trained as an
addiction recovery coach aswell.
So I've gone down the coachingroute.
I'd already done some trainingand qualifications in executive
coaching.
But what really appealed to mewas to how I can support other
individuals who either want torecover from addiction or are
(04:57):
already on the path.
And I guess more broadly,addiction and trauma as well.
So I guess my professionallyspeaking, multifaceted, I'm a
kind of clinician, a coach, anddoing various bits and pieces.
But you know, personally, I'mhusband, father recovering
addict and alcoholic and yeah,all of these things.
Dr Nat Green (05:18):
I love that so much and thank you for just so
openly sharing that with us.
And I know we've chatted manytimes you the same as myself,
are an open book.
That what we've been through hasled us down the path that we're
going down, wherever that is foreach of us.
(05:40):
And yes, the background inclinical psychology is really
valuable and really important.
But as you so beautifullyarticulated, that lived
experience brings just thatdifferent layer an additional
level I think, of wisdom andunderstanding and empathy into
(06:02):
the room with our clients.
Dr David Lee (06:05):
Absolutely.
For me, this has just been myjourney.
It's been a journey of recoveryfrom addiction and trauma going
right back to childhood and whatreally set the wheels in motion
for that was me deciding that Ineeded to do committed.
I say long-term work.
What I actually mean is lifelongwork around who I am as a human
(06:29):
being, fundamentally.
And it was the the breakdown andthe dissolution of my former
marriage that sort of led me todo that.
And my problems with addictionand alcoholism that led me into
that.
I've done bits and pieces oftherapy before when I felt that
I needed to, but I don't knowabout you, Nat.
One of the things in my clinicaltraining is that I now recognize
(06:51):
is.
It wasn't strongly emphasized tome the need to do your own
personal inner work.
As a psychologist it was almostlike, take it or leave it.
You want to go do some therapygo get some CBT or do a bit of
psychodynamic psychotherapy orlook at this.
But yet when I speak topsychotherapists, including my
(07:12):
own therapist over many yearsnow it's a fundamental part of
the experience, is that journeyalong the path.
And for me in more recent years,it's been therapy.
It's been 12 step addictionrecovery which has become a way
of life for me now.
(07:33):
And other deep inner workobviously the professional stuff
around coaching, which alsoreally attends to the personal
as well.
But if somebody had have told methis when I was in my twenties
way back 20 odd years ago, ifsomebody had said to me if
you're gonna venture down thethe wellbeing, mental health,
(07:55):
clinical psychology path, and orbe, become a therapist you
should probably do work onyourself.
I probably would've said at thattime, what does that actually
mean
Dr Nat Green (08:05):
exactly.
Dr David Lee (08:07):
So many years, I masqueraded as the the expert,
if you like, because I thought Ihad the book-based knowledge.
I'd done clinical placements,I'd attended numerous courses,
programs, invested heavily inmyself over the years, trained
with some of the very best thebest of the best and thought
that made me.
A really good therapist and itwas only through my own lived
(08:29):
experience and pain.
Let's be honest.
Pain and suffering.
Yeah.
That I came to realize.
No, this the working on yourselfis it doesn't come from saying,
okay, I'm gonna do that courseor Okay, I'm even gonna just go
and work with that therapist.
'cause it might be helpful.
It comes from a deep innerexperience of needing to do that
(08:53):
work.
I think being called to do thatwork for me, it was a dark night
of the soul.
It was an absolute rock bottom.
And that was.
Having being qualified for manyyears as a clinical psychologist
and working, I think in adifferent way than to how I
would work now.
But yeah, for me, it's thefundamental experience of being
human.
(09:13):
I'm not saying everybody has torecover from addiction or even
complex childhood trauma orsomething.
But I think and this is onlywith hindsight really and being
on the path now had I known thenwhat I now know that this
journey is it's so sacredreally.
(09:34):
It's to do that inner work andto become acquainted with who
you really are.
That has been, that's been mystory for, quite a number of
years now.
Dr Nat Green (09:44):
Yeah.
I honestly, think you completelynailed it.
I was exactly the same.
Yes.
You did your training in the uk.
I did my training over here inAustralia, but yeah, and I'm
talking a long time ago.
Over 35 years ago.
Yeah, 35 years now as apsychologist.
Yeah.
So the four years, six yearsprior to that in learning how to
(10:09):
do it, it was never, evermentioned that you go and do
your own work, you learn it froma book.
We didn't even see a personsitting in front of us in my
undergrad.
Yeah.
So you turn up and you're in theroom and you just gotta fumble
your way through.
Absolutely.
And then obviously I went on.
To do the clinical psychology,and you do placements and you do
(10:32):
more, but it was never discussedthat you had to do your own
work.
In fact, it was almost like youhad to have nothing wrong in
inverted commas.
Nothing wrong with you, or youcouldn't be a psychologist.
You, you Yeah.
You invulnerable in a sense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr David Lee (10:52):
I totally relate to that because when I was like,
just relating to your experiencethere, when I was in the throes,
if you like, of applying forclinical training and and for me
that was back in the early twothousands, it was so competitive
(11:14):
in the sense that it was almostthe reverse of what I'm talking
about here.
Yeah.
It was that kind of, you need tobe a gladiator if you like.
And you need to know everythingand go out and prove yourself.
Almost like competitive beyondreason.
Yes.
Where and I remember my cohortwhen I did my training back in
(11:35):
my clinical training was 2003 to2006.
And almost like there, there wasan edge of mistrust among my
peers.
'cause, because such and suchperson, I was doing this
placement and working with thissupervisor, so therefore they
might have the edge on you andsuch a person has already worked
with this person.
And Wow.
(11:55):
Lo and behold, if you alreadyhad a PhD, so you were gonna
become doctor as a result ofyour training or you had prior
experience as a counselor andyou decided to train as a
clinical psychologist.
That was like, Ooh, that this,now this is I really feel outta
my comfort zone now'cause I'mamong peers who have got the
edge on me.
And I look back on that and it'sabsolutely ridiculous.
Dr Nat Green (12:17):
Absolutely ridiculous,
Dr David Lee (12:19):
Of the lack of togetherness and solidarity that
I experienced at that time.
But the way I look at it, Ithink I had to get to the point
where I was almost approachingmidlife and for all sorts of
personal things to happen to meto appreciate, oh, maybe this is
what the journey really shouldhave been.
And maybe I just wasn't ready tosee it at 24, 25.
Dr Nat Green (12:41):
And yeah, that wisdom that comes through the
life experience and livedexperience opens up this whole
new world.
And I think for whateverreasons, when we're human beings
and we go through life andthings happen.
Yeah.
That we need to be prepared tobe vulnerable.
(13:03):
Yeah.
Be open to doing the work butactually acknowledging that and
sharing that and not trying tohide it and pretend it's not
there.
I think to be open vulnerableand imperfect to be prepared to
(13:25):
accept and admit your flaws.
'cause we're all flawed, right?
Absolutely.
I just never admit thatpreviously'cause there was
always a yes, but and there wasalways a justification as as to
why I'd made mistakes, etcetera.
For me, it really took me to.
Effectively burn my life downand to lose everything to
(13:45):
realize what this was reallyabout.
And some ways, somehow I'vemanaged to stay working in the
profession.
I made mistakes that I'm notproud of and had to really look
at those with rigorous honestyand develop some humility along
the way.
But I was almost ready to getout of clinical psychology and
to go do something else.
(14:06):
I didn't know what exactly.
But I've managed to stay in thatrealm somehow.
And and also to broaden myexperience.
The addiction Recovery coachtraining came from being a
fellow myself in recovery.
I say fellow'cause that's theterm that we use in 12 steps.
Yeah.
Dr David Lee (14:23):
In, in the rooms as we say.
But of course there are multiplepathways of recovery from
addiction.
So I guess I've tried to in someway.
Listen to my higher powerbecause I do live a spiritual
life now to again, not perfectprogress, not perfection, but to
almost listen to what my higherpower or God wants me to do in
(14:45):
this world.
And that goes beyond labels andidentities and all of the things
that our ego tells us.
We should be clinicalpsychologist or therapist or
coach, or whatever name or Dr.
David or whatever it's about.
Okay let's shed all that.
But when we come back to whatyour higher purpose is and how
you can help others how can youdo that?
(15:06):
And when I committed to that, Ithought I'll always find a way
to do that some way.
'cause I think that's what Godwants me to do, is he wants me
in some ways to help peoplebased on my lived experience and
to, in some way be able to.
Help others, I think, to be opento their vulnerabilities and
accept their imperfections andguess look into the shadow and
(15:27):
face the shame and the fear andthe guilt and all that stuff
that's there.
Which for me, was going back tochildhood stuff.
And stuff that I grew up with inthe home.
But also the stuff that thenresurfaced in my previous
marriage as well.
And I thought, yeah, this iswhat I'm called to do in some
(15:48):
way and to connect with otherhuman beings and share my
experience.
But to really I said for a longtime now, I think part of what
I've set myself the task ofdoing is, helping individuals to
break patterns ofintergenerational adversity,
trauma, whatever that lookslike, whether it's trauma,
(16:10):
addiction often intertwined.
And I think I made a pledge tomyself a number of years ago
that no matter what it takes meto do that, I'm gonna do it
anyway, even if I no longer workas a clinical psychologist.
Even if I have to start all overagain from scratch, and I guess
(16:31):
the way I look at it now is Ireinvested my early training and
experience in clinicalpsychology and all of that.
And, but it only made sense interms of the life experiences,
the trauma, the breakdown of themarriage.
Dr Nat Green (16:45):
Yeah.
Dr David Lee (16:45):
The the fractured relationship with my son at the
time.
And the financial damage that Iwent through and everything, and
having to look at myself in themirror.
And start to do that withcompassion as well.
Dr Nat Green (17:01):
Really important part.
Dr David Lee (17:03):
Yeah.
It's not that the academicknowledge didn't matter anymore,
it's just that I came to look atit in a different way and I've
come to use the theories, theconcepts and all of that in a
very different way.
They say, you go through theseexperience, it's like looking
through a new pair of glasses,yeah.
Dr Nat Green (17:17):
Totally different lens.
And I think once you've put onthat lens and looked at it, you
never view life the same.
It's always gonna be changed andchanged for the better usually,
even though it didn't feel likeit along the way.
Dr David Lee (17:32):
You you cannot go back.
That's the reality.
I think'cause to go back wouldbe like, it's like entering the
labyrinth or something likethat.
Yeah.
Something like that.
So familiar that you're like,yeah.
Or a matrix or something.
But it's like and look, and thisdoesn't mean that Oh yeah.
Life becomes utopia and thereare no problems.
Dr Nat Green (17:51):
Absolutely not.
Dr David Lee (17:52):
It's easier it's a different way of dealing with
things in 12 step recovery.
We talk about letting go andsurrendering and and that really
means a spiritual death.
That's the death of the ego, ifyou like.
And it's also about learning adifferent way no longer living
(18:13):
your life based on self will andtrying to control people, places
and things.
And it clicked to me one day, Ithink, when I was working with a
client that I thought I.
So many of the problems thatclients come to me with are
wrapped around that trying tocontrol their environment,
trying to control their life,trying to control the future and
I hadn't really realized thatuntil I, I went through that
(18:35):
experience myself having to letgo.
So it sounds like it's easyletting go and just handing it
over.
You are outsourcingresponsibility for life, but
it's not that at all.
It's actually incrediblychallenging to start to live
your life and let go and putyour future and destiny in the
hands of God, however youconceive God, your higher power
(18:57):
or whatever.
But that's how I live my lifenow, each and every day.
And I have to live like that.
I have to commit to that way ofliving because I know what the
alternative is.
I know to step back in thatrealm would be it's not that
it's impossible, it's that it'sit would to say it would be a
backward step is like such anunderstatement.
Oh yeah.
A lot of life would become acomplete and utter mess,
Dr Nat Green (19:20):
yeah.
So you've mentioned a few thingsthat I'd love to touch on.
So you talked about your darknight of the soul, burning
everything down, and you talkedabout how you had the addiction
and all these impacts, afractured relationship with your
son, your marriage, all thosethings.
(19:41):
Did you wanna tell our listenersa little bit about what led up
to that?
Dr David Lee (19:46):
Yeah.
I'll tell the story.
I, wanna be careful not toimplicate some people here as I
do it, of course.
And but I'll touch on theessence of it and what it was.
I'd been qualified forapproaching 10 years working as
a clinical psychologist and Iwas actually full-time in
private practice in the UKaround.
2015 when I had the bright ideathat I'll become an expat and
(20:11):
move from the UK and go to theMiddle East.
And my, my wife, ex-wife now,and I, we were like pretty newly
married at the time, but we'dhad my son quite early in the
relationship.
We did that.
We packed up everything andmoved to Dubai and left the UK
behind and it was quite animpulsive decision.
(20:33):
I'm not saying it was the wrongdecision at the time.
Now I don't think it could haveplayed out in any other way.
Yeah.
Because of what then latertranspired.
But just to summarize theessence of that marriage and
relationship, it was a quite adysfunctional marriage.
I think now looking back, wewere trauma bonded.
And we moved very quickly in therelationship.
(20:56):
My son is one of the mostwonderful things that's ever
happened to me.
And we have a brilliantrelationship now, albeit a
distance, which is why it'samazing to be back here.
Spending some time with him.
Yes.
I'm seeing him later today.
I was when we went for dinnerlast night.
But I have to face the realitythat my son was born of a
(21:16):
relationship that was notfunctional.
And look, you only know what youknow often in hindsight and I
was
Dr Nat Green (21:23):
absolutely
Dr David Lee (21:24):
too young to it.
So we went on this pathtogether.
We set up business here in theUK in private practices, my
ex-wife and I together.
Then we decided to move toDubai.
And we went to Dubai in 2016.
And that was where things justreally it's where the descent
started and where I crashed andburned and ended up at rock
(21:46):
bottom.
Things were very stressful.
First of all, I hadn't reallyrecognized how difficult expat
life could be in the sense thathow expensive it could be, how
sometimes promises are made thatare not kept with regard to
work.
Look, I've had some amazing lifeexperiences living in Dubai and
(22:09):
in the Middle East that I don'twanna this to sound because in a
way, I would not be where I amnow had I, I'd not been living
in Dubai.
But we found it really hard, Ithink, to adapt to that shift of
lifestyle and all of the stress.
And I began to drink more andmore alcohol.
Okay.
Is a problem and has been aproblem.
(22:31):
And what I mean is there's aproblem in my family there's a
intergenerational lineage Ithink, of alcoholism.
Okay.
I didn't realize I wasalcoholic, so I was there.
I got to late thirties, then hitforty, and things just became
really unmanageable.
I was drinking constantly I, Iwas drinking every night.
(22:53):
I was blacking out.
I was getting up and going towork the next morning and seeing
clients of working six days aweek.
Dr Nat Green (22:58):
mmmm
Dr David Lee (22:59):
Things got really difficult.
I I think when you are in thatstate, when you're either always
drinking or you are living froma place of addiction or what we,
in 12 step recovery, we call aspiritual malady You can't
function as a normal.
Responsible, ethical human beingdoes.
Of course, my professionalismreally slipped and I got into
(23:24):
trouble.
I made mistakes I'm not proudof, and I'll be open and honest.
I don't think I was fit topractice at that time.
What came next was basically themarriage broke down.
My ex-wife and my son moved backto the uk.
I got into a lot of troubleprofessionally.
I found myself living over thereeffectively having lost a lot of
(23:50):
money without my son and a veryfractured relationship that had
to be repaired.
My son was only 11 at that time.
Okay.
And that was it for me.
It felt like, it felt at thetime, like a fall from Grace.
But I look back at it now andthere was never any grace really
there was just a highlyqualified person on paper two
(24:14):
degrees and a doctorate, and alot of sort of book knowledge
and Okay.
I was yeah, I had knowledge.
I helped a lot of clients overthe years, but I hadn't done the
deep inner work or the spiritualwork that I went on to do, and I
wouldn't have done it had I notfound myself in that dark night
of the soul and needing to doit, because I thought, what do I
(24:34):
do?
I either carry on drinking and Icarry on creating a mess, and
I'll not, I won't maybe.
Destroy a family anymore, or Icertainly won't be in a position
to rebuild the relationship withmy son, but I could just carry
on living a lonely life andcarry on doing that.
And now it'll probably neverwork again.
And contribute to society orhelp anybody.
(24:55):
And I thought, that's not what Iwant.
And in fact, it then did crossmy mind that if I carry on in
this way, I'm probably not gonnalive a long life.
My dad died young.
He died in his early fiftiesvery suddenly.
Okay.
And he had a real problem withalcohol.
And I thought, I have a chancehere.
I have an opportunity.
And that I think that came to meas my first ever kind of
(25:17):
spiritual experience, if youlike was that awakening that I
can go get help and I can getreal help.
Dr Nat Green (25:23):
And
Dr David Lee (25:23):
from there it wasn't easy.
But but I did I got recovery.
I I went into long-term therapy.
Then I started to reassemble mycareer.
I think clinic, regular, veryconsistent clinical supervision.
All of these things.
I started to look at what do Iwanna do more broadly?
(25:45):
Then I met my now wife she'sabsolutely beautiful experience,
but she met me when I was veryearly in sobriety.
I was going through such achange in transition, which
wasn't easy, but I wasn't ableto pick up the drink.
And I'd say my wife now Jaz,she's Filipino.
(26:07):
She's just been such a source ofstrength to me.
But I don't think it was easyfor her early on to be with a
recovering alcoholic and addictwho's very early in the process.
Yes.
She's never seen me pick up adrink, an alcoholic drink, but
she's been with me as I as I'venavigated the 12 steps and as
I've deepened my therapeuticexperience.
It's been an incredibleexperience, I would say in the
(26:32):
last six years or so.
But it's it's not been easy, butit's amazing how things
transpire in your life when youset out on that path and you
stay on the path.
Dr Nat Green (26:43):
Yes, definitely.
Yeah.
That's
Dr David Lee (26:45):
been my experience.
Dr Nat Green (26:47):
Yeah.
And one of the things that, withall the interviews I've done in
this over a year now that we'vebeen podcasting, growing tall
poppies, the one surprised meactually, the one common theme
that every guest I've had hastalked about is spirituality,
(27:09):
whatever that spiritualitymeans.
And like you said, it doesn'thave to be religion, it can be
anything, but it's that higherpower, that higher source
outside of ourselves.
And here we are again.
You're talking about, yeah.
Spirituality and when that firstbig recognition came for you.
(27:30):
Yeah.
So tell me a bit more aboutthat.
Dr David Lee (27:34):
It's I never thought that I would be a person
who placed his life and his willand everything in the hands of
God, and'cause I didn't reallybelieve in it.
I played at believing inspirituality and all of these
(27:57):
things we attract what webelieve and all of that stuff,
but to actually put everythingin God's hands.
And for me, I have my ownbeliefs about what that is, but
I think what I did is going intorecoveries, came back to a
deeper sense of.
Christianity, really.
I grew up with Christianity.
(28:17):
I wouldn't say my family werereligious, but it, I guess I, I
grew up in a Christian family,sort of Church of England, but
rediscovering those roots in asense.
And connecting to Christ and theChrist in me as a human being,
(28:38):
which is not my ego, by the way.
And i'll share my spiritualexperience was I had been out
one night when I found myselflonely, alone, broken without my
son.
And suddenly under investigationfor a regulatory issue so my, I.
(29:04):
Registration was here in the uk,was threatened because of
mistakes that I'd made.
And I was scared and deeplyscared.
And I'd been out one night and Isat in this bar and I drunk a
few beers.
I drunk a glass of wine and itwasn't for me.
That wasn't a heavy night, butsomething spoke to me that night
(29:27):
and said I'm completely lostnow.
I just don't know what to donext.
I don't have the answers.
I could sit here drinking inthis bar, but I don't think
that's gonna help.
And I was obsessively trying tostrategize and plan, what do I
do?
How do I deal?
I've got no money.
How do I get legalrepresentation and how do I deal
with all of the admin that comeswith this?
And then I walked home from thisbar back to my apartment that
(29:50):
night.
And and this was back in 2019.
I looked into the sky and I sawthe moon.
And for some reason at thatmoment, I knew that I'd taken my
last alcoholic drink.
Dr Nat Green (30:06):
Wow.
Dr David Lee (30:06):
And that the next day would be a different day.
It would be the first day ofsobriety for me.
Dr Nat Green (30:13):
And I
Dr David Lee (30:13):
knew that the following day I was gonna walk
into the rooms for the 12 steprecovery fellowship, that, one
of which I'm part of.
I regularly attend threefellowships now.
But the one, the primary one toget help for alcoholism.
And and it happened from there.
(30:34):
I can't describe it anymore thanthat.
A profound sense of, it wasn'tlike, oh, this is all solved and
there's instant relief.
It was not alone.
Dr Nat Green (30:44):
And I surrender.
Dr David Lee (30:45):
I'm on my knees right now.
My will isn't gonna change.
The it's only gonna take me backto the drink again.
And so yeah, that sense ofspirituality.
And it's interesting because in12 Step recovery we talk about a
god of your own understanding ora higher power of your own
understanding.
Yeah.
So that was it.
Dr Nat Green (31:04):
Yeah.
And yeah,
Dr David Lee (31:05):
the first, first three steps are about surrender.
They're about, admitting theproblem and the unmanageability
coming to believe in a powergreater than yourself and then
making a decision to turn yourwill and your life over.
And that was it for me.
That was all that was the startof the process for me.
(31:26):
Didn't know quite what it wasgoing to gonna look like and how
my life would be from there.
But I think I knew at that pointI couldn't, I can't you can't
pick up another drink.
You don't to actually start toconsider that as almost like an
impossibility in a sense.
You know what happens when youdo, you know what is gonna
happen if you carry on?
There had to be a, there had tobe a hard stop there.
(31:46):
And for some reason, and I don'tknow why it was that evening,
was it and I was almost, when Igot a 12 step sponsor in the
next couple of days, I wasreassured.
'cause I said to him, I saidwhat's the whole thing then
about when you stop?
'cause I always I took a drinkthe other night.
I haven't had one since.
And he's like you don't plan togo back drinking again, do you?
(32:09):
So you think you've alreadystopped?
And I'm just, I think thatconfirmed to me what I already
knew.
I had taken my last alcoholicdrink.
I couldn't go back from that.
Dr Nat Green (32:18):
What a powerful moment.
And for whatever reason it cameinto your life, you were able to
recognize that and trust.
In that process.
Dr David Lee (32:30):
Yeah.
I something came to me veryearly on in my long-term therapy
in one of my therapy sessions.
And it was a kind of guidedvisualization, stroke,
meditation exercise that we did.
And and there was a message thatI received during that, which
(32:50):
just spoke to me, stay on thepath and
Dr Nat Green (32:54):
And that
Dr David Lee (32:54):
was very early on in my recovery as well.
'cause the two were in tandem Iwas attending 12 step meetings
and doing weekly therapy.
That and I should say thetherapist I chose to work with,
who's is very 12 step informed.
She's a fellow traveler in asense.
So something really spoke to meabout that, staying on the path.
And I guess that leads me on toto me to say that I'd always
(33:18):
heard of this concept of awounded healer as well.
I didn't quite know what thatmeant.
I, yeah, we've all got stuff inour past.
Okay, fine.
We've wounded, we move on, wetrain, and then we help other
people.
But then I really startedworking with my therapist and
going along the path as I nowcall it I, I came to realize
(33:43):
what it means to be a woundedhealer.
Dr Nat Green (33:46):
Actually, I'd love you to share that.
I'd love you to share what yourversion of that is.
Dr David Lee (33:50):
Yeah.
It's not about ego.
It's not about, okay, I've beenthere, I'm wounded, so I can
tell you what you need to do.
It's not about that.
I can sit with a person and havea deep sense of what it's like
to be at the turning point ofgoing, what I thought was
(34:10):
working for me.
Is no longer working for me.
And maybe it wasn't in the firstplace, but I deluded myself into
believing that it did.
Dr Nat Green (34:19):
And to
Dr David Lee (34:20):
recognizing that there is hope, but it's gonna
require work and it's gonnarequire a commitment to change
and to observe that in somebody,and to sit with that and to work
with individuals around that.
Like right now, clinically, Iwork with predominantly females,
(34:42):
but I come across a lot of maleswho are in some way going
through a parallel journey towhat I'm going through.
Okay.
I made a lot of mistakes and I'mseeing the parallels with some
of the male clients I work with.
When I now work with femaleclients, I.
Equally get a sense of what itis to go through trauma often in
(35:08):
relationships.
Look I didn't have a goodtemplate for relationships
right.
From childhood.
And I was trauma bonded in mymarriage.
And I would say I wascodependent from a very young
age and bounce from onerelationship to another, pretty
much from the age of 17 to learna very different way, an
embodied way of being withsomebody in a relationship and a
(35:28):
marriage.
Now a beautiful marriage, butyou know, that still we go
through life ups and downstogether.
Dr Nat Green (35:34):
Yeah.
Dr David Lee (35:35):
And to do that in recovery has been absolutely
wonderful.
But I had to make a lot ofmistakes.
I don't think I had a healthyrelationship up until now.
Dr Nat Green (35:47):
Wow.
Dr David Lee (35:48):
In my life.
So actually to.
Work with clients.
'cause the way I see it all ofour trauma, all of our adversity
is relational.
Yeah.
And that's how it played out forme.
And to look back and work withsome clients and recognize
what's going on.
Often that we make mistakes inrelationships, not because we're
bad people and not because weare fundamentally trying to
(36:09):
destroy the lives of others.
But because we are oftentraumatized and we're often
needs have not been met, let'ssay.
There's a reason that, that Icould be codependent and
demanding in an adultrelationship was because the
inner child in me had neverreally been attended to.
(36:31):
And I work with so many peoplenow where I see those patterns
coming up patterns of whetherit's addiction, trauma, acting
out infidelity crossingboundaries.
And yes, it's wrong and it takeshumility, accountability, and
rigorous honesty to look at thatstuff.
(36:52):
But it comes from a place ofpain.
It doesn't come from peoplebeing bad people.
We don't intentionally set outto cheat on our wives or cross
boundaries, let's say, or thisis the shadow stuff, by the way.
So for me it's the stuff that Ionly really got to know about
(37:12):
from my own personal therapy.
What does it mean to look intothe shadow as somebody who's
very traditionally a CBTtherapist yeah.
And to find myself then reallyexploring the work of Carl Jung
and people like that.
And, but so actually do thatwork.
There is stuff in the shadow,and but it's, when we bring
light to the shadow that wehave, we're empowered.
(37:35):
And my sense is it's you don'tdo that work alone.
I needed God to shine a lightinto the shadow in order to be
able to face it.
I couldn't have done this workalone.
I just run, I would just runfrom it, it's too dark.
Dr Nat Green (37:49):
Oh, absolutely.
And you didn't know where tolook to find the shadows.
That's right.
Yeah.
That you needed someone to guideyou through that and have been
able to acknowledge your owninner demons and actually deal
with them.
So when you are working withclients now, I would imagine
from what you've just said, thatyou can see those patterns
(38:14):
really quickly.
Identify them quickly becauseyou can highlight their shadows
pretty quickly,
Dr David Lee (38:23):
I think.
Again, it's through theexperience the lived experience,
the embodied experience of goingthrough that, that I think I'm
able to often tap into forexample it gets much easier to
(38:44):
spot avoidance, even subtleavoidance in your clients, yeah.
You and I'm quite direct as thetherapist, although I believe
the compassion is there fully.
I don't hesitate to callsomebody out to start to let's
what are you edging away fromthere?
Hang on, let's look at that.
(39:05):
And I do that genuinely from aplace of compassion.
'cause I know that's what Ineeded at the time.
And I chose to work with atherapist and commit to working
with a therapist who initially Ididn't like working with her
because she can be prettybrusque at times.
And she can call a spade, butalso help you to identify where
you are avoiding I was calledout on my bullshit as some of my
(39:26):
clients say, you call me outyour bullshit.
That happens to me so manytimes.
Exactly.
But the way I look at it now,it's being able to look into the
shadow and then say, oh yes, andGod is with me.
And I can do that.
It's scary stuff, like,conceptually it sounds like, oh
yeah, that's what I need to do.
But actually when you go throughthat lived day experience, and
to me I recognize that.
(39:49):
It was going through a marriagewhere everything broke down and
was so dysfunctional that it'salmost like trauma.
The word trauma doesn't quitecapture it for me, the word
terror is more accurate.
Okay.
The deep darkest moments in mymarriage previously pattern
matched almost so perfectly someof the experiences I had in my
(40:11):
childhood with an alcoholicfather.
Gosh.
And when you have thatexperience, it takes you back to
being a really scared child.
That also feels, it's almostlike that, a sense of fear and
shame coexisting.
I later experienced that in mythirties in a marriage and it
(40:32):
was almost like I'm back thereagain and this is absolutely
horrendous.
And oh, would it
Dr Nat Green (40:37):
triggered all of that?
Yeah.
All of that back then, and youcan understand how those
patterns continue to play outthrough your life.
Exactly.
Until you are willing to reallydo that deeper work.
'cause nothing would've changedyour next relationship.
Nothing would changed, would'vebeen the same.
Absolutely.
Dr David Lee (40:53):
Nothing would've changed.
And for me it was to recognizethat I was psychologically I
think now I don't hesitate touse this word psychologically
sick and spiritually sick, butso too were others in my life,
so too were parent figures in mylife.
Family.
And partners as well and to havecompassion for others.
(41:19):
Is also to, I think, to be ableto connect to yourself fully and
have compassion as well, to holdyourself with compassion.
And to know that you are held tolook deeply into mistakes that
are if somebody I did a greatjob of burning my own life down,
but other people jumped on thebandwagon as well and try to
also dismantle what was left ofit and then keep going.
(41:45):
But to see where that comes fromand to hold it with compassion
and I think, and to forgive, andit's such a unique experience
life becomes lighter.
Oh, there, there is an easierway to carry the load when you
do that, when you let go, whenyou forgive, and you are able to
(42:09):
unbuckle yourself from all ofthat resentment.
Consequently we say in 12 steprecovery fear of people and of
economic insecurity will leaveus.
That's been my experience.
(42:29):
I'm not saying I don't have dayswhere I don't worry about money
or I don't worry about whatsomeone will think of me, but on
the whole I recognize thatwhether I'm challenged by people
or whether I'm stretchedfinancially or whatever,
fundamentally I know it's gonnabe okay.
(42:49):
Stuff, it's just stuff that wedeal with in the world now.
It's not a catastrophe.
Dr Nat Green (42:54):
So after having been through your deepest,
darkest moment and rebuilding,you know that you can do
anything.
You can get yourself throughanything because you're not
alone.
Yeah.
That's right.
Dr David Lee (43:07):
And my sense is when I'm working with clients is
you can explain this stufftheoretically and conceptually,
but nobody gets it because theyit just doesn't, it's
meaningless until you have thatinner experience.
But when you start to do thework and you start to help
people to change and to seethose changes transpire, I.
(43:31):
I'm a big fan in terms of mytherapy work of EMDR I was
fairly late to the game withEMDR.
I think I'd clung to the CBT andschema therapy for so long that
for me to to train in EMDRanother approaches as well like
ACT acceptance and commitmenttherapy.
But I'm a huge fan of EMDR now.
(43:52):
And why, I think because itresonates so much with the 12
steps in terms of the surrenderand letting go process.
I say in, in EMDR, we say gowith that when we're doing the
bilateral stimulation.
Dr Nat Green (44:02):
Yeah.
Yep.
Dr David Lee (44:03):
In 12 step recovery, we say Go with God,
and the idea of being open andfully willing to experience
whatever's coming in the momentto moment it's so powerful.
It's so incredibly powerful.
Dr Nat Green (44:21):
And you can just hear you telling your story,
you.
Show that very clearly of whatyou've been through, all the
horrendous stuff you'venavigated and where you are now.
So tell me a bit more about thework you're doing and what
you're doing in the world now.
'cause I know Yeah.
Things have shifted.
Dr David Lee (44:43):
Things have shifted.
I am the work in, as a clinicalpsychologist in Dubai.
I'm mainly working with clientswith addictions and trauma.
I get a wide range of referrals.
I work with adults, but I willfor a time I was working with
adolescents as well, 12 yearsand upwards.
But I've now I mainly work with16 and upwards now.
So I mainly work with a adults,some older adolescents, early
(45:07):
adults couples as well.
I don't do a great deal ofcouples therapy, but I do some.
Predominantly working in a veryintegrative way.
Often using EMDR with clients insome way.
And, a lot of the work aroundaddiction and trauma that I do
is 12 step informed in some way.
(45:29):
Yeah.
And I did in recent years set upa brand the sober way and was
working mainly online.
Predominantly with males.
And it was around alcoholism andthat was a coaching program.
It wasn't therapy'cause itwasn't in depth, but it was more
like, I guess blending togethersome of my sort of clinical
(45:54):
experience with the livedexperience and developing a
program which was more bespokethan like the 12 steps.
But it wasn't depth psychologyor anything like that.
I think I had some epiphanymoments along the way when I was
working with some clients aspart of that program.
(46:14):
One is that I didn't feel that Ihad got it quite right and it
wasn't quite what I wanted todo.
So I thought I'd shelved that,put it on hold and see what
spoke to me later.
And I think now I'm forming moreof an idea of what I wanna do.
And it's more about shadow work,but we hear a lot about shadow
work in this day and age.
You can you can just pick up ashadow work journal off Amazon.
(46:35):
I think that probably, yeah,ChatGPT wrote for somebody.
But I would like to develop aprogram that is around facing
the shadow in a way that.
Has been inspired, my own livedexperience, and I think
initially possibly to work withmen but eventually to work with
(46:55):
ladies, non-binary folk howeveryou define yourself.
But there's, there has to be astarting point from it.
And because I'm a heterosexualmale who's been through this
experience, I, and knows what itis like to navigate that path.
But that said, I clinically Iwork with, I think about 80% of
my clients are female.
But I, so what I'm saying is I'mstill working clinically, but I
(47:19):
want to go much more down theworking online again.
Both one-to-one and groupcoaching program.
But I wanna go beyond that aswell.
Like my passion is really towrite as well.
My passion is I think forlanguage to write, to speak So I
(47:40):
want to create movements basedon my own understanding and
lived the experience of what itis to look into the shadow, to
recover from trauma, recoverfrom addiction, and to live
lives where we can flourish.
That's the direction I'm nowlooking to move in i'm still
working clinically.
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (47:59):
But I love this future vision that you've got
for yourself because I think youhave shown exactly what it's
like to navigate that path, tobe a success from where you've
come from.
And I know it's it's still awork in progress.
It's always a work in progress.
The journey's never done.
Dr David Lee (48:20):
Absolutely.
I'm smiling because I was gonnasay that and I wasn't clear,
like when I set up the soberway, I wasn't clear that's what
I wanted to do, but that was thefirst iteration of something,
right?
Dr Nat Green (48:30):
Yeah.
Dr David Lee (48:30):
Because the journey that we're on isn't
clear.
I'm not really sure what's gonnahappen today.
I think I know what I'm doingthis afternoon and possibly this
evening, but I don't know howit's gonna transpire.
The jet lag might kick in and Imight go to bed early.
And and then we have all sortsof things that are unforeseen
that come up that we, thatsuddenly changed the course of
(48:52):
the day and changed the courseof life.
I'm okay with the uncertaintynow.
That's what I'm saying.
I know I have a sense of thedirection I'm moving in.
I dunno exactly what it's, whatthe first offer is gonna really
look like, but I think I havesome sense of what I'm being
called to do.
So I'm okay with thatuncertainty as I move forward.
And I'm even, and totally finewith the idea that.
(49:17):
I may let go of labels,identities completely.
'cause I'm not my identity.
I don't really need to be aclinical psychologist
Dr Nat Green (49:26):
No.
Dr David Lee (49:26):
Or a coach or anything.
I'm somebody who has walked apath and is still walking a path
and can share life experience.
Part of my life experience aswell as addiction recovery and
trauma recovery and all of thatstuff is to have worked for some
time as a clinical psychologistand done X number of
qualifications.
So that all comes together.
And I think when I trust in Godand just let go it.
(49:48):
It's all ego stuff to say I'm apsychologist, or a coach or a
thought leader, or whatever.
The reality is, it doesn'tmatter if you can help people
and you can find a way to reachthem, and more importantly, if
they can find, if they are drawnto you and life leads them on
that path, it will happen.
I know that because I'veexperienced that countless times
(50:10):
in my life and continue toexperience that day in, day out.
So yeah, it's having faith
Dr Nat Green (50:16):
and it's also, it then becomes part of, you were
born to do that and you knowyou'll continue to go along the
path that you're meant to go on.
Dr David Lee (50:25):
So it's trusting, is it?
It's trusting sometimes blindly,but trusting also from feeling,
and that's faith, it's goingwith grace and having faith that
you are doing what you are meantto be doing, and if there are
temporary problems along the waywe won't perish.
Dr Nat Green (50:45):
Yeah.
So you've said like you'vespoken very much about
spirituality and faith.
Would you say, David, thatthere's any other specific
qualities or personal attributesthat you see as being key for
someone who's moving throughtrauma and into post-traumatic
growth?
Dr David Lee (51:10):
I think honesty.
And I think that's honesty withlook on a number of levels,
being honest about what'shappened, being honest about
where you are.
And that from my livedexperience, I was the
psychologist and therapistmasquerading as the expert who
was deeply wounded.
(51:32):
Yeah.
And suffering in a whole lot ofpain.
But the ego was portrayingsomething else.
Dr Nat Green (51:37):
So the
Dr David Lee (51:37):
light was the suited, booted, do media
interviews and speaking on stageand claiming to be the expert.
The shadow was the underbelly oflife, of pain.
And so honesty about that kindof honesty about where you are
at whether we all make mistakesin life, but, and I had to face
(51:57):
my mistakes with rigoroushonesty.
But honesty as to where you arehow many people carry on as if
they're invulnerable and they'reI can carry on.
And life they're breaking, theirbodies are breaking down, but
they're still trying to work sixdays a week.
Exactly.
See a caseload of however manypeople whether you're you are a
(52:22):
therapist or not.
So honesty naturally goes withaccountability for me.
And that's accountability foractually doing the work, yeah.
I learned that, and I can'tremember who first told me this
was that, God can movemountains, but you have to bring
the shovel.
Dr Nat Green (52:41):
I love it.
You don't
Dr David Lee (52:42):
just turn up.
I haven't just turned up andit's been easy.
Oh yeah.
I'll just sit back and God willdo all the work.
But there is an accountabilitypart to recovering from trauma
and I think to post traumaticgrowth, post addiction growth,
however you wanna look at it,post adversity growth.
There is a honesty andaccountability go hand in hand.
(53:05):
And I also think the the otherthing which I don't think is so
much of a quality is.
Willingness.
And I think that's aboutwillingness and open-mindedness.
So you we talk about inrecovery, honesty,
open-mindedness and willingness.
I think the willingness issometimes to let go of defiance
(53:25):
and open up to a new way.
And it's not, you can't reallyexplain how you become willing
to let go of everything.
How do you become willing to letgo of the future and your idea
of what the future's gonna belike?
How do you let go of this ideathat I don't know, you may not
(53:47):
live in the big house in thecountryside that you want.
You may end up somewhere else.
You may not end up married withfour kids or whatever.
Life may take you down adifferent path.
How do you let go and becomewilling to not try to control
the future and control peopleplaces and things?
Dr Nat Green (54:07):
Great
Dr David Lee (54:07):
question again but, and for me it's it's facing
up to what's already there quiteoften the clue is usually in the
pain, but a lot of people don'twant to explore those pain
points.
Dr Nat Green (54:22):
Yeah.
And I think that's, that,willingness as in being willing
to explore the pain points andlike you said, the shadows and
really be open to doing the workno matter how painful it is.
That's very key.
Yeah, that's
Dr David Lee (54:39):
right.
And once again, you don't dothis work alone.
And you don't just look into theshadow and feel the shame and
the terror and all of that stuffand just stay there.
You go with grace and you, andthere is a whole I think one of
(55:01):
the most brilliant sort ofinnovations, if you like in
recent years is some of thetechnical advances that we've
made in terms of health, mindbody integration, but comes
through neuroscience and biologyand things like polyvagal
theory, for example.
Dr Nat Green (55:18):
Yeah.
Dr David Lee (55:18):
There is a way of being with trauma and pain and
adversity and whatever and shameof what lies in the shadow.
In a contained way through beingconnected in a safe way towards
others through the breath.
Dr Nat Green (55:31):
Through
Dr David Lee (55:32):
Mindful and curious, compassionate
exploration of the body.
We don't just jump into theshadow and get lost there.
Dr Nat Green (55:41):
No.
Dr David Lee (55:42):
We don't need to do that.
We have
Dr Nat Green (55:43):
to manage our nervous system in the process as
we do that, for sure.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
David, as we move to wrapping upthe conversation, where can our
listeners find out more aboutyou and find you online?
Dr David Lee (55:56):
Yeah I'm in a state of transition, I think, in
terms of social media, butsomething we will be coming
next.
I don't know what exactly, butyou can find me for now.
On linked LinkedIn as Dr.
David A.
Lee.
Yeah, Dr.
David Lee psychology.
On Instagram.
Those are the places that's bestto find me.
(56:16):
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (56:16):
Yeah.
And we'll put that in the shownotes.
And I always finish ourinterviews with one of my
favorite questions.
So David, what do you think youryounger self would think of what
you've achieved?
Dr David Lee (56:36):
If I could just as I'm not avoiding the question,
but if I could try and re rewordit a little bit, I would wonder
not so much about theachievement as what would he
make of the kind of person thatyou have become.
Exactly.
And the way that I now live dayto day, I think that he
(57:02):
probably, I.
I would not believe that youdon't have to live from a state
of constantly feeling thatyou're in danger or you don't
have to live from a place whereyou are constantly striving and
doing and pushing.
(57:22):
He probably wouldn't quitebelieve that.
You can come to a way where youcan be centered and present and
part of attending to life, thebusiness of life each day is
about being, rather than doingand being grounded and centered
and showing up for others andfor yourself.
(57:43):
I don't think he wouldunderstand that, but he would
have some sense of, wow, this iswhat it now looks like.
And what a journey I must haveto go on to get there.
But yeah.
'cause I would have noconception of that as a young,
as a boy or as an early adult oreven 10, 15 years ago.
I would have no, no concept ofthat.
Dr Nat Green (58:05):
Wow.
Little David's come so
Dr David Lee (58:08):
far.
I think I'd take little Davidwith me young David.
And I still do that each andevery day.
I have to find a way to turn tohim each and every day to
nurture with compassion and thenadult David takes care of the
stuff that adults should takecare of.
'cause little boys shouldn'thave to take care of
Dr Nat Green (58:27):
Some
Dr David Lee (58:28):
of the things that life throws at us, but he might
need to be contained and heldwith compassion and then we move
forward with faith.
and Courage.
I
Dr Nat Green (58:39):
love that.
Absolutely.
Courage.
And I thought that a bit earlierwhen we were talking that you
didn't mention courage, but Ireally wanna acknowledge the
courage it takes you, it hastaken you to move forward.
Yeah.
And live every day and show upin the way that you show up.
Dr David Lee (58:58):
Yeah.
And I'm sorry I missed that.
'cause that is really importantfor me as well.
And that's something that Iobserve in my clients and it's
something that I think I and Iremember that I do commend in my
clients is the courage that thiswork take.
And it's always so inspiring to,to see changing clients and to
recognize that.
You did this from a place ofcourage, yeah.
(59:19):
And that is needed.
Yeah.
That's needed at the outset,really.
That when you stand at theturning point and you have an
opportunity to do this work,courage is needed.
Yeah.
For sure.
Dr Nat Green (59:28):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much David forchatting with us today.
I know our listeners are gonnahave loved this conversation.
I'm so grateful.
My pleasure.
Dr David Lee (59:38):
Na, my pleasure.
Dr Nat Green (59:40):
You enjoy the rest of your time in the uk.
I hope the jet lags not too bad,and talk to you soon.
Thank you.
I'll go
Dr David Lee (59:46):
and get some rest.
Thanks very much Nat.
Thanks for having me.
Dr Nat Green (59:53):
Thank you for joining me in this episode of
Growing Tall Poppies.
It is my deepest hope thattoday's episode may have
inspired and empowered you tostep fully into your
post-traumatic growth, so thatyou can have absolute clarity
around who you are, what mattersthe most to you, and to assist
(01:00:16):
you to release your negativeemotions.
And regulate your nervous systemso you can fully thrive.
New episodes are published everyTuesday, and I hope you'll
continue to join us as weexplore both the strategies and
the personal qualities requiredto fully live a life of
(01:00:36):
post-traumatic growth and tothrive.
So if it feels aligned to youand really resonates, then I
invite you to hit subscribe andit would mean the world to us.
If you could share this episodewith others who you feel may
benefit too, you may also findme on Instagram at Growing Tall
(01:00:57):
Poppies and Facebook, Dr.
Natalie Green.
Remember, every moment is anopportunity to look for the
lessons and to learn andincrease your ability to live
the life you desire and deserve.
So for now, stay connected.
Stay inspired.
(01:01:18):
Stand tall like the tall poppyyou are, and keep shining your
light brightly in the world.
Bye for.
Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nat Green, and I'm so excited tohave you join me as we discuss
what it means to navigate yourway through post-traumatic
growth and not just survive, butto thrive after trauma.
(00:23):
Through our podcast, we willexplore ways for you to create a
life filled with greaterpurpose, self-awareness, and a
deep inner peace.
Through integrating the manyyears of knowledge and
professional experience, as wellas the wisdom of those who have
experienced trauma firsthand.
(00:44):
We'll combine psychologyaccelerated approaches.
Coaching and personal experienceto assist you, to learn, to grow
and to thrive.
I hope to empower you to createdeeper awareness and
understanding and strongerconnections with yourself and
with others, whilst also pavingthe way for those who have
(01:08):
experienced trauma and adversityto reduce their suffering and
become the very best versions ofthemselves.
In order to thrive.
Thank you so much for joining meon today's episode.
I'm super excited and gratefultoday to bring you our next
(01:29):
guest on the Growing TallPoppies podcast.
It's my absolute pleasure andprivilege to welcome an amazing
man who I've known for the lastfew years having met him through
a community of coaches andtherapists that we are connected
through.
He's experienced and overcomeconsiderable amounts of trauma
(01:50):
and adversity throughout hislife, and has very kindly agreed
to come and chat with us todayabout his personal and his
professional experience.
So let me start by welcomingDavid to chat with us today.
So welcome.
Dr.
David Lee, it's so great to haveyou here.
Dr David Lee (02:11):
My pleasure.
Nat thank you very much forhaving me.
I'm delighted to be here.
Thank you so much for invitingme to be on this wonderful
podcast, growing Tall poppies.
Really excited.
Dr Nat Green (02:22):
Thanks, David.
So let's start with you givingus a brief introduction of who
you are and what you do in theworld.
Dr David Lee (02:31):
Sure.
Yeah.
I think there are a number ofways I can answer that question.
Fundamentally, I'm David Lee.
I'm a human being who's beenthrough life experiences.
I'm a father, I'm a husbandhopefully a friend to, to a
number of people.
I'm somebody who is deeplycommitted, I think, to sharing
(02:52):
my own lived experience in a waythat can hopefully help other
human beings, not to justemphasize that my way is the
only way.
But I guess professionallyspeaking I'm a clinical
psychologist by background.
I'm from the uk.
(03:12):
I now live and work in Dubai inthe UAE.
I'm back here in the UK rightnow, visiting family.
But yeah, I trained in the uk.
I've been around for a littlewhile.
Trained in psychology, clinicalpsychology.
I went through the the NationalHealth Service here in the uk.
Then onward into the privatesector.
(03:32):
Worked with a variety ofdifferent, kind of client groups
outpatient, inpatient, communitybased private practice.
And I think I realized over timethat, my own lived experience
counts for more in a sense notsaying that, throw the baby out
(03:55):
with the bath water.
'Cause my psych psychologyexperience and training is
incredibly valuable.
But I think in certainly morerecent years, I've ventured down
a different path.
I'm still a psychologist, butI'm also a coach as well.
I guess a coach a speaker, awriter I don't know if I wanna
be so grandiose to give myselfthe title thought leader, but
(04:16):
looking to, inspire others or atleast invite others to consider
how their own lived experiencecan be helpful in a way.
I myself have lived experienceof recovery from addiction and I
guess trauma as well multiple,I.
Kind of addictions, but mainlyalcoholism.
(04:36):
And yeah.
And off the back of that,really, I trained as an
addiction recovery coach aswell.
So I've gone down the coachingroute.
I'd already done some trainingand qualifications in executive
coaching.
But what really appealed to mewas to how I can support other
individuals who either want torecover from addiction or are
(04:57):
already on the path.
And I guess more broadly,addiction and trauma as well.
So I guess my professionallyspeaking, multifaceted, I'm a
kind of clinician, a coach, anddoing various bits and pieces.
But you know, personally, I'mhusband, father recovering
addict and alcoholic and yeah,all of these things.
Dr Nat Green (05:18):
I love that so much and thank you for just so
openly sharing that with us.
And I know we've chatted manytimes you the same as myself,
are an open book.
That what we've been through hasled us down the path that we're
going down, wherever that is foreach of us.
(05:40):
And yes, the background inclinical psychology is really
valuable and really important.
But as you so beautifullyarticulated, that lived
experience brings just thatdifferent layer an additional
level I think, of wisdom andunderstanding and empathy into
(06:02):
the room with our clients.
Dr David Lee (06:05):
Absolutely.
For me, this has just been myjourney.
It's been a journey of recoveryfrom addiction and trauma going
right back to childhood and whatreally set the wheels in motion
for that was me deciding that Ineeded to do committed.
I say long-term work.
What I actually mean is lifelongwork around who I am as a human
(06:29):
being, fundamentally.
And it was the the breakdown andthe dissolution of my former
marriage that sort of led me todo that.
And my problems with addictionand alcoholism that led me into
that.
I've done bits and pieces oftherapy before when I felt that
I needed to, but I don't knowabout you, Nat.
One of the things in my clinicaltraining is that I now recognize
(06:51):
is.
It wasn't strongly emphasized tome the need to do your own
personal inner work.
As a psychologist it was almostlike, take it or leave it.
You want to go do some therapygo get some CBT or do a bit of
psychodynamic psychotherapy orlook at this.
But yet when I speak topsychotherapists, including my
(07:12):
own therapist over many yearsnow it's a fundamental part of
the experience, is that journeyalong the path.
And for me in more recent years,it's been therapy.
It's been 12 step addictionrecovery which has become a way
of life for me now.
(07:33):
And other deep inner workobviously the professional stuff
around coaching, which alsoreally attends to the personal
as well.
But if somebody had have told methis when I was in my twenties
way back 20 odd years ago, ifsomebody had said to me if
you're gonna venture down thethe wellbeing, mental health,
(07:55):
clinical psychology path, and orbe, become a therapist you
should probably do work onyourself.
I probably would've said at thattime, what does that actually
mean
Dr Nat Green (08:05):
exactly.
Dr David Lee (08:07):
So many years, I masqueraded as the the expert,
if you like, because I thought Ihad the book-based knowledge.
I'd done clinical placements,I'd attended numerous courses,
programs, invested heavily inmyself over the years, trained
with some of the very best thebest of the best and thought
that made me.
A really good therapist and itwas only through my own lived
(08:29):
experience and pain.
Let's be honest.
Pain and suffering.
Yeah.
That I came to realize.
No, this the working on yourselfis it doesn't come from saying,
okay, I'm gonna do that courseor Okay, I'm even gonna just go
and work with that therapist.
'cause it might be helpful.
It comes from a deep innerexperience of needing to do that
(08:53):
work.
I think being called to do thatwork for me, it was a dark night
of the soul.
It was an absolute rock bottom.
And that was.
Having being qualified for manyyears as a clinical psychologist
and working, I think in adifferent way than to how I
would work now.
But yeah, for me, it's thefundamental experience of being
human.
(09:13):
I'm not saying everybody has torecover from addiction or even
complex childhood trauma orsomething.
But I think and this is onlywith hindsight really and being
on the path now had I known thenwhat I now know that this
journey is it's so sacredreally.
(09:34):
It's to do that inner work andto become acquainted with who
you really are.
That has been, that's been mystory for, quite a number of
years now.
Dr Nat Green (09:44):
Yeah.
I honestly, think you completelynailed it.
I was exactly the same.
Yes.
You did your training in the uk.
I did my training over here inAustralia, but yeah, and I'm
talking a long time ago.
Over 35 years ago.
Yeah, 35 years now as apsychologist.
Yeah.
So the four years, six yearsprior to that in learning how to
(10:09):
do it, it was never, evermentioned that you go and do
your own work, you learn it froma book.
We didn't even see a personsitting in front of us in my
undergrad.
Yeah.
So you turn up and you're in theroom and you just gotta fumble
your way through.
Absolutely.
And then obviously I went on.
To do the clinical psychology,and you do placements and you do
(10:32):
more, but it was never discussedthat you had to do your own
work.
In fact, it was almost like youhad to have nothing wrong in
inverted commas.
Nothing wrong with you, or youcouldn't be a psychologist.
You, you Yeah.
You invulnerable in a sense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr David Lee (10:52):
I totally relate to that because when I was like,
just relating to your experiencethere, when I was in the throes,
if you like, of applying forclinical training and and for me
that was back in the early twothousands, it was so competitive
(11:14):
in the sense that it was almostthe reverse of what I'm talking
about here.
Yeah.
It was that kind of, you need tobe a gladiator if you like.
And you need to know everythingand go out and prove yourself.
Almost like competitive beyondreason.
Yes.
Where and I remember my cohortwhen I did my training back in
(11:35):
my clinical training was 2003 to2006.
And almost like there, there wasan edge of mistrust among my
peers.
'cause, because such and suchperson, I was doing this
placement and working with thissupervisor, so therefore they
might have the edge on you andsuch a person has already worked
with this person.
And Wow.
(11:55):
Lo and behold, if you alreadyhad a PhD, so you were gonna
become doctor as a result ofyour training or you had prior
experience as a counselor andyou decided to train as a
clinical psychologist.
That was like, Ooh, that this,now this is I really feel outta
my comfort zone now'cause I'mamong peers who have got the
edge on me.
And I look back on that and it'sabsolutely ridiculous.
Dr Nat Green (12:17):
Absolutely ridiculous,
Dr David Lee (12:19):
Of the lack of togetherness and solidarity that
I experienced at that time.
But the way I look at it, Ithink I had to get to the point
where I was almost approachingmidlife and for all sorts of
personal things to happen to meto appreciate, oh, maybe this is
what the journey really shouldhave been.
And maybe I just wasn't ready tosee it at 24, 25.
Dr Nat Green (12:41):
And yeah, that wisdom that comes through the
life experience and livedexperience opens up this whole
new world.
And I think for whateverreasons, when we're human beings
and we go through life andthings happen.
Yeah.
That we need to be prepared tobe vulnerable.
(13:03):
Yeah.
Be open to doing the work butactually acknowledging that and
sharing that and not trying tohide it and pretend it's not
there.
I think to be open vulnerableand imperfect to be prepared to
(13:25):
accept and admit your flaws.
'cause we're all flawed, right?
Absolutely.
I just never admit thatpreviously'cause there was
always a yes, but and there wasalways a justification as as to
why I'd made mistakes, etcetera.
For me, it really took me to.
Effectively burn my life downand to lose everything to
(13:45):
realize what this was reallyabout.
And some ways, somehow I'vemanaged to stay working in the
profession.
I made mistakes that I'm notproud of and had to really look
at those with rigorous honestyand develop some humility along
the way.
But I was almost ready to getout of clinical psychology and
to go do something else.
(14:06):
I didn't know what exactly.
But I've managed to stay in thatrealm somehow.
And and also to broaden myexperience.
The addiction Recovery coachtraining came from being a
fellow myself in recovery.
I say fellow'cause that's theterm that we use in 12 steps.
Yeah.
Dr David Lee (14:23):
In, in the rooms as we say.
But of course there are multiplepathways of recovery from
addiction.
So I guess I've tried to in someway.
Listen to my higher powerbecause I do live a spiritual
life now to again, not perfectprogress, not perfection, but to
almost listen to what my higherpower or God wants me to do in
(14:45):
this world.
And that goes beyond labels andidentities and all of the things
that our ego tells us.
We should be clinicalpsychologist or therapist or
coach, or whatever name or Dr.
David or whatever it's about.
Okay let's shed all that.
But when we come back to whatyour higher purpose is and how
you can help others how can youdo that?
(15:06):
And when I committed to that, Ithought I'll always find a way
to do that some way.
'cause I think that's what Godwants me to do, is he wants me
in some ways to help peoplebased on my lived experience and
to, in some way be able to.
Help others, I think, to be opento their vulnerabilities and
accept their imperfections andguess look into the shadow and
(15:27):
face the shame and the fear andthe guilt and all that stuff
that's there.
Which for me, was going back tochildhood stuff.
And stuff that I grew up with inthe home.
But also the stuff that thenresurfaced in my previous
marriage as well.
And I thought, yeah, this iswhat I'm called to do in some
(15:48):
way and to connect with otherhuman beings and share my
experience.
But to really I said for a longtime now, I think part of what
I've set myself the task ofdoing is, helping individuals to
break patterns ofintergenerational adversity,
trauma, whatever that lookslike, whether it's trauma,
(16:10):
addiction often intertwined.
And I think I made a pledge tomyself a number of years ago
that no matter what it takes meto do that, I'm gonna do it
anyway, even if I no longer workas a clinical psychologist.
Even if I have to start all overagain from scratch, and I guess
(16:31):
the way I look at it now is Ireinvested my early training and
experience in clinicalpsychology and all of that.
And, but it only made sense interms of the life experiences,
the trauma, the breakdown of themarriage.
Dr Nat Green (16:45):
Yeah.
Dr David Lee (16:45):
The the fractured relationship with my son at the
time.
And the financial damage that Iwent through and everything, and
having to look at myself in themirror.
And start to do that withcompassion as well.
Dr Nat Green (17:01):
Really important part.
Dr David Lee (17:03):
Yeah.
It's not that the academicknowledge didn't matter anymore,
it's just that I came to look atit in a different way and I've
come to use the theories, theconcepts and all of that in a
very different way.
They say, you go through theseexperience, it's like looking
through a new pair of glasses,yeah.
Dr Nat Green (17:17):
Totally different lens.
And I think once you've put onthat lens and looked at it, you
never view life the same.
It's always gonna be changed andchanged for the better usually,
even though it didn't feel likeit along the way.
Dr David Lee (17:32):
You you cannot go back.
That's the reality.
I think'cause to go back wouldbe like, it's like entering the
labyrinth or something likethat.
Yeah.
Something like that.
So familiar that you're like,yeah.
Or a matrix or something.
But it's like and look, and thisdoesn't mean that Oh yeah.
Life becomes utopia and thereare no problems.
Dr Nat Green (17:51):
Absolutely not.
Dr David Lee (17:52):
It's easier it's a different way of dealing with
things in 12 step recovery.
We talk about letting go andsurrendering and and that really
means a spiritual death.
That's the death of the ego, ifyou like.
And it's also about learning adifferent way no longer living
(18:13):
your life based on self will andtrying to control people, places
and things.
And it clicked to me one day, Ithink, when I was working with a
client that I thought I.
So many of the problems thatclients come to me with are
wrapped around that trying tocontrol their environment,
trying to control their life,trying to control the future and
I hadn't really realized thatuntil I, I went through that
(18:35):
experience myself having to letgo.
So it sounds like it's easyletting go and just handing it
over.
You are outsourcingresponsibility for life, but
it's not that at all.
It's actually incrediblychallenging to start to live
your life and let go and putyour future and destiny in the
hands of God, however youconceive God, your higher power
(18:57):
or whatever.
But that's how I live my lifenow, each and every day.
And I have to live like that.
I have to commit to that way ofliving because I know what the
alternative is.
I know to step back in thatrealm would be it's not that
it's impossible, it's that it'sit would to say it would be a
backward step is like such anunderstatement.
Oh yeah.
A lot of life would become acomplete and utter mess,
Dr Nat Green (19:20):
yeah.
So you've mentioned a few thingsthat I'd love to touch on.
So you talked about your darknight of the soul, burning
everything down, and you talkedabout how you had the addiction
and all these impacts, afractured relationship with your
son, your marriage, all thosethings.
(19:41):
Did you wanna tell our listenersa little bit about what led up
to that?
Dr David Lee (19:46):
Yeah.
I'll tell the story.
I, wanna be careful not toimplicate some people here as I
do it, of course.
And but I'll touch on theessence of it and what it was.
I'd been qualified forapproaching 10 years working as
a clinical psychologist and Iwas actually full-time in
private practice in the UKaround.
2015 when I had the bright ideathat I'll become an expat and
(20:11):
move from the UK and go to theMiddle East.
And my, my wife, ex-wife now,and I, we were like pretty newly
married at the time, but we'dhad my son quite early in the
relationship.
We did that.
We packed up everything andmoved to Dubai and left the UK
behind and it was quite animpulsive decision.
(20:33):
I'm not saying it was the wrongdecision at the time.
Now I don't think it could haveplayed out in any other way.
Yeah.
Because of what then latertranspired.
But just to summarize theessence of that marriage and
relationship, it was a quite adysfunctional marriage.
I think now looking back, wewere trauma bonded.
And we moved very quickly in therelationship.
(20:56):
My son is one of the mostwonderful things that's ever
happened to me.
And we have a brilliantrelationship now, albeit a
distance, which is why it'samazing to be back here.
Spending some time with him.
Yes.
I'm seeing him later today.
I was when we went for dinnerlast night.
But I have to face the realitythat my son was born of a
(21:16):
relationship that was notfunctional.
And look, you only know what youknow often in hindsight and I
was
Dr Nat Green (21:23):
absolutely
Dr David Lee (21:24):
too young to it.
So we went on this pathtogether.
We set up business here in theUK in private practices, my
ex-wife and I together.
Then we decided to move toDubai.
And we went to Dubai in 2016.
And that was where things justreally it's where the descent
started and where I crashed andburned and ended up at rock
(21:46):
bottom.
Things were very stressful.
First of all, I hadn't reallyrecognized how difficult expat
life could be in the sense thathow expensive it could be, how
sometimes promises are made thatare not kept with regard to
work.
Look, I've had some amazing lifeexperiences living in Dubai and
(22:09):
in the Middle East that I don'twanna this to sound because in a
way, I would not be where I amnow had I, I'd not been living
in Dubai.
But we found it really hard, Ithink, to adapt to that shift of
lifestyle and all of the stress.
And I began to drink more andmore alcohol.
Okay.
Is a problem and has been aproblem.
(22:31):
And what I mean is there's aproblem in my family there's a
intergenerational lineage Ithink, of alcoholism.
Okay.
I didn't realize I wasalcoholic, so I was there.
I got to late thirties, then hitforty, and things just became
really unmanageable.
I was drinking constantly I, Iwas drinking every night.
(22:53):
I was blacking out.
I was getting up and going towork the next morning and seeing
clients of working six days aweek.
Dr Nat Green (22:58):
mmmm
Dr David Lee (22:59):
Things got really difficult.
I I think when you are in thatstate, when you're either always
drinking or you are living froma place of addiction or what we,
in 12 step recovery, we call aspiritual malady You can't
function as a normal.
Responsible, ethical human beingdoes.
Of course, my professionalismreally slipped and I got into
(23:24):
trouble.
I made mistakes I'm not proudof, and I'll be open and honest.
I don't think I was fit topractice at that time.
What came next was basically themarriage broke down.
My ex-wife and my son moved backto the uk.
I got into a lot of troubleprofessionally.
I found myself living over thereeffectively having lost a lot of
(23:50):
money without my son and a veryfractured relationship that had
to be repaired.
My son was only 11 at that time.
Okay.
And that was it for me.
It felt like, it felt at thetime, like a fall from Grace.
But I look back at it now andthere was never any grace really
there was just a highlyqualified person on paper two
(24:14):
degrees and a doctorate, and alot of sort of book knowledge
and Okay.
I was yeah, I had knowledge.
I helped a lot of clients overthe years, but I hadn't done the
deep inner work or the spiritualwork that I went on to do, and I
wouldn't have done it had I notfound myself in that dark night
of the soul and needing to doit, because I thought, what do I
(24:34):
do?
I either carry on drinking and Icarry on creating a mess, and
I'll not, I won't maybe.
Destroy a family anymore, or Icertainly won't be in a position
to rebuild the relationship withmy son, but I could just carry
on living a lonely life andcarry on doing that.
And now it'll probably neverwork again.
And contribute to society orhelp anybody.
(24:55):
And I thought, that's not what Iwant.
And in fact, it then did crossmy mind that if I carry on in
this way, I'm probably not gonnalive a long life.
My dad died young.
He died in his early fiftiesvery suddenly.
Okay.
And he had a real problem withalcohol.
And I thought, I have a chancehere.
I have an opportunity.
And that I think that came to meas my first ever kind of
(25:17):
spiritual experience, if youlike was that awakening that I
can go get help and I can getreal help.
Dr Nat Green (25:23):
And
Dr David Lee (25:23):
from there it wasn't easy.
But but I did I got recovery.
I I went into long-term therapy.
Then I started to reassemble mycareer.
I think clinic, regular, veryconsistent clinical supervision.
All of these things.
I started to look at what do Iwanna do more broadly?
(25:45):
Then I met my now wife she'sabsolutely beautiful experience,
but she met me when I was veryearly in sobriety.
I was going through such achange in transition, which
wasn't easy, but I wasn't ableto pick up the drink.
And I'd say my wife now Jaz,she's Filipino.
(26:07):
She's just been such a source ofstrength to me.
But I don't think it was easyfor her early on to be with a
recovering alcoholic and addictwho's very early in the process.
Yes.
She's never seen me pick up adrink, an alcoholic drink, but
she's been with me as I as I'venavigated the 12 steps and as
I've deepened my therapeuticexperience.
It's been an incredibleexperience, I would say in the
(26:32):
last six years or so.
But it's it's not been easy, butit's amazing how things
transpire in your life when youset out on that path and you
stay on the path.
Dr Nat Green (26:43):
Yes, definitely.
Yeah.
That's
Dr David Lee (26:45):
been my experience.
Dr Nat Green (26:47):
Yeah.
And one of the things that, withall the interviews I've done in
this over a year now that we'vebeen podcasting, growing tall
poppies, the one surprised meactually, the one common theme
that every guest I've had hastalked about is spirituality,
(27:09):
whatever that spiritualitymeans.
And like you said, it doesn'thave to be religion, it can be
anything, but it's that higherpower, that higher source
outside of ourselves.
And here we are again.
You're talking about, yeah.
Spirituality and when that firstbig recognition came for you.
(27:30):
Yeah.
So tell me a bit more aboutthat.
Dr David Lee (27:34):
It's I never thought that I would be a person
who placed his life and his willand everything in the hands of
God, and'cause I didn't reallybelieve in it.
I played at believing inspirituality and all of these
(27:57):
things we attract what webelieve and all of that stuff,
but to actually put everythingin God's hands.
And for me, I have my ownbeliefs about what that is, but
I think what I did is going intorecoveries, came back to a
deeper sense of.
Christianity, really.
I grew up with Christianity.
(28:17):
I wouldn't say my family werereligious, but it, I guess I, I
grew up in a Christian family,sort of Church of England, but
rediscovering those roots in asense.
And connecting to Christ and theChrist in me as a human being,
(28:38):
which is not my ego, by the way.
And i'll share my spiritualexperience was I had been out
one night when I found myselflonely, alone, broken without my
son.
And suddenly under investigationfor a regulatory issue so my, I.
(29:04):
Registration was here in the uk,was threatened because of
mistakes that I'd made.
And I was scared and deeplyscared.
And I'd been out one night and Isat in this bar and I drunk a
few beers.
I drunk a glass of wine and itwasn't for me.
That wasn't a heavy night, butsomething spoke to me that night
(29:27):
and said I'm completely lostnow.
I just don't know what to donext.
I don't have the answers.
I could sit here drinking inthis bar, but I don't think
that's gonna help.
And I was obsessively trying tostrategize and plan, what do I
do?
How do I deal?
I've got no money.
How do I get legalrepresentation and how do I deal
with all of the admin that comeswith this?
And then I walked home from thisbar back to my apartment that
(29:50):
night.
And and this was back in 2019.
I looked into the sky and I sawthe moon.
And for some reason at thatmoment, I knew that I'd taken my
last alcoholic drink.
Dr Nat Green (30:06):
Wow.
Dr David Lee (30:06):
And that the next day would be a different day.
It would be the first day ofsobriety for me.
Dr Nat Green (30:13):
And I
Dr David Lee (30:13):
knew that the following day I was gonna walk
into the rooms for the 12 steprecovery fellowship, that, one
of which I'm part of.
I regularly attend threefellowships now.
But the one, the primary one toget help for alcoholism.
And and it happened from there.
(30:34):
I can't describe it anymore thanthat.
A profound sense of, it wasn'tlike, oh, this is all solved and
there's instant relief.
It was not alone.
Dr Nat Green (30:44):
And I surrender.
Dr David Lee (30:45):
I'm on my knees right now.
My will isn't gonna change.
The it's only gonna take me backto the drink again.
And so yeah, that sense ofspirituality.
And it's interesting because in12 Step recovery we talk about a
god of your own understanding ora higher power of your own
understanding.
Yeah.
So that was it.
Dr Nat Green (31:04):
Yeah.
And yeah,
Dr David Lee (31:05):
the first, first three steps are about surrender.
They're about, admitting theproblem and the unmanageability
coming to believe in a powergreater than yourself and then
making a decision to turn yourwill and your life over.
And that was it for me.
That was all that was the startof the process for me.
(31:26):
Didn't know quite what it wasgoing to gonna look like and how
my life would be from there.
But I think I knew at that pointI couldn't, I can't you can't
pick up another drink.
You don't to actually start toconsider that as almost like an
impossibility in a sense.
You know what happens when youdo, you know what is gonna
happen if you carry on?
There had to be a, there had tobe a hard stop there.
(31:46):
And for some reason, and I don'tknow why it was that evening,
was it and I was almost, when Igot a 12 step sponsor in the
next couple of days, I wasreassured.
'cause I said to him, I saidwhat's the whole thing then
about when you stop?
'cause I always I took a drinkthe other night.
I haven't had one since.
And he's like you don't plan togo back drinking again, do you?
(32:09):
So you think you've alreadystopped?
And I'm just, I think thatconfirmed to me what I already
knew.
I had taken my last alcoholicdrink.
I couldn't go back from that.
Dr Nat Green (32:18):
What a powerful moment.
And for whatever reason it cameinto your life, you were able to
recognize that and trust.
In that process.
Dr David Lee (32:30):
Yeah.
I something came to me veryearly on in my long-term therapy
in one of my therapy sessions.
And it was a kind of guidedvisualization, stroke,
meditation exercise that we did.
And and there was a message thatI received during that, which
(32:50):
just spoke to me, stay on thepath and
Dr Nat Green (32:54):
And that
Dr David Lee (32:54):
was very early on in my recovery as well.
'cause the two were in tandem Iwas attending 12 step meetings
and doing weekly therapy.
That and I should say thetherapist I chose to work with,
who's is very 12 step informed.
She's a fellow traveler in asense.
So something really spoke to meabout that, staying on the path.
And I guess that leads me on toto me to say that I'd always
(33:18):
heard of this concept of awounded healer as well.
I didn't quite know what thatmeant.
I, yeah, we've all got stuff inour past.
Okay, fine.
We've wounded, we move on, wetrain, and then we help other
people.
But then I really startedworking with my therapist and
going along the path as I nowcall it I, I came to realize
(33:43):
what it means to be a woundedhealer.
Dr Nat Green (33:46):
Actually, I'd love you to share that.
I'd love you to share what yourversion of that is.
Dr David Lee (33:50):
Yeah.
It's not about ego.
It's not about, okay, I've beenthere, I'm wounded, so I can
tell you what you need to do.
It's not about that.
I can sit with a person and havea deep sense of what it's like
to be at the turning point ofgoing, what I thought was
(34:10):
working for me.
Is no longer working for me.
And maybe it wasn't in the firstplace, but I deluded myself into
believing that it did.
Dr Nat Green (34:19):
And to
Dr David Lee (34:20):
recognizing that there is hope, but it's gonna
require work and it's gonnarequire a commitment to change
and to observe that in somebody,and to sit with that and to work
with individuals around that.
Like right now, clinically, Iwork with predominantly females,
(34:42):
but I come across a lot of maleswho are in some way going
through a parallel journey towhat I'm going through.
Okay.
I made a lot of mistakes and I'mseeing the parallels with some
of the male clients I work with.
When I now work with femaleclients, I.
Equally get a sense of what itis to go through trauma often in
(35:08):
relationships.
Look I didn't have a goodtemplate for relationships
right.
From childhood.
And I was trauma bonded in mymarriage.
And I would say I wascodependent from a very young
age and bounce from onerelationship to another, pretty
much from the age of 17 to learna very different way, an
embodied way of being withsomebody in a relationship and a
(35:28):
marriage.
Now a beautiful marriage, butyou know, that still we go
through life ups and downstogether.
Dr Nat Green (35:34):
Yeah.
Dr David Lee (35:35):
And to do that in recovery has been absolutely
wonderful.
But I had to make a lot ofmistakes.
I don't think I had a healthyrelationship up until now.
Dr Nat Green (35:47):
Wow.
Dr David Lee (35:48):
In my life.
So actually to.
Work with clients.
'cause the way I see it all ofour trauma, all of our adversity
is relational.
Yeah.
And that's how it played out forme.
And to look back and work withsome clients and recognize
what's going on.
Often that we make mistakes inrelationships, not because we're
bad people and not because weare fundamentally trying to
(36:09):
destroy the lives of others.
But because we are oftentraumatized and we're often
needs have not been met, let'ssay.
There's a reason that, that Icould be codependent and
demanding in an adultrelationship was because the
inner child in me had neverreally been attended to.
(36:31):
And I work with so many peoplenow where I see those patterns
coming up patterns of whetherit's addiction, trauma, acting
out infidelity crossingboundaries.
And yes, it's wrong and it takeshumility, accountability, and
rigorous honesty to look at thatstuff.
(36:52):
But it comes from a place ofpain.
It doesn't come from peoplebeing bad people.
We don't intentionally set outto cheat on our wives or cross
boundaries, let's say, or thisis the shadow stuff, by the way.
So for me it's the stuff that Ionly really got to know about
(37:12):
from my own personal therapy.
What does it mean to look intothe shadow as somebody who's
very traditionally a CBTtherapist yeah.
And to find myself then reallyexploring the work of Carl Jung
and people like that.
And, but so actually do thatwork.
There is stuff in the shadow,and but it's, when we bring
light to the shadow that wehave, we're empowered.
(37:35):
And my sense is it's you don'tdo that work alone.
I needed God to shine a lightinto the shadow in order to be
able to face it.
I couldn't have done this workalone.
I just run, I would just runfrom it, it's too dark.
Dr Nat Green (37:49):
Oh, absolutely.
And you didn't know where tolook to find the shadows.
That's right.
Yeah.
That you needed someone to guideyou through that and have been
able to acknowledge your owninner demons and actually deal
with them.
So when you are working withclients now, I would imagine
from what you've just said, thatyou can see those patterns
(38:14):
really quickly.
Identify them quickly becauseyou can highlight their shadows
pretty quickly,
Dr David Lee (38:23):
I think.
Again, it's through theexperience the lived experience,
the embodied experience of goingthrough that, that I think I'm
able to often tap into forexample it gets much easier to
(38:44):
spot avoidance, even subtleavoidance in your clients, yeah.
You and I'm quite direct as thetherapist, although I believe
the compassion is there fully.
I don't hesitate to callsomebody out to start to let's
what are you edging away fromthere?
Hang on, let's look at that.
(39:05):
And I do that genuinely from aplace of compassion.
'cause I know that's what Ineeded at the time.
And I chose to work with atherapist and commit to working
with a therapist who initially Ididn't like working with her
because she can be prettybrusque at times.
And she can call a spade, butalso help you to identify where
you are avoiding I was calledout on my bullshit as some of my
(39:26):
clients say, you call me outyour bullshit.
That happens to me so manytimes.
Exactly.
But the way I look at it now,it's being able to look into the
shadow and then say, oh yes, andGod is with me.
And I can do that.
It's scary stuff, like,conceptually it sounds like, oh
yeah, that's what I need to do.
But actually when you go throughthat lived day experience, and
to me I recognize that.
(39:49):
It was going through a marriagewhere everything broke down and
was so dysfunctional that it'salmost like trauma.
The word trauma doesn't quitecapture it for me, the word
terror is more accurate.
Okay.
The deep darkest moments in mymarriage previously pattern
matched almost so perfectly someof the experiences I had in my
(40:11):
childhood with an alcoholicfather.
Gosh.
And when you have thatexperience, it takes you back to
being a really scared child.
That also feels, it's almostlike that, a sense of fear and
shame coexisting.
I later experienced that in mythirties in a marriage and it
(40:32):
was almost like I'm back thereagain and this is absolutely
horrendous.
And oh, would it
Dr Nat Green (40:37):
triggered all of that?
Yeah.
All of that back then, and youcan understand how those
patterns continue to play outthrough your life.
Exactly.
Until you are willing to reallydo that deeper work.
'cause nothing would've changedyour next relationship.
Nothing would changed, would'vebeen the same.
Absolutely.
Dr David Lee (40:53):
Nothing would've changed.
And for me it was to recognizethat I was psychologically I
think now I don't hesitate touse this word psychologically
sick and spiritually sick, butso too were others in my life,
so too were parent figures in mylife.
Family.
And partners as well and to havecompassion for others.
(41:19):
Is also to, I think, to be ableto connect to yourself fully and
have compassion as well, to holdyourself with compassion.
And to know that you are held tolook deeply into mistakes that
are if somebody I did a greatjob of burning my own life down,
but other people jumped on thebandwagon as well and try to
also dismantle what was left ofit and then keep going.
(41:45):
But to see where that comes fromand to hold it with compassion
and I think, and to forgive, andit's such a unique experience
life becomes lighter.
Oh, there, there is an easierway to carry the load when you
do that, when you let go, whenyou forgive, and you are able to
(42:09):
unbuckle yourself from all ofthat resentment.
Consequently we say in 12 steprecovery fear of people and of
economic insecurity will leaveus.
That's been my experience.
(42:29):
I'm not saying I don't have dayswhere I don't worry about money
or I don't worry about whatsomeone will think of me, but on
the whole I recognize thatwhether I'm challenged by people
or whether I'm stretchedfinancially or whatever,
fundamentally I know it's gonnabe okay.
(42:49):
Stuff, it's just stuff that wedeal with in the world now.
It's not a catastrophe.
Dr Nat Green (42:54):
So after having been through your deepest,
darkest moment and rebuilding,you know that you can do
anything.
You can get yourself throughanything because you're not
alone.
Yeah.
That's right.
Dr David Lee (43:07):
And my sense is when I'm working with clients is
you can explain this stufftheoretically and conceptually,
but nobody gets it because theyit just doesn't, it's
meaningless until you have thatinner experience.
But when you start to do thework and you start to help
people to change and to seethose changes transpire, I.
(43:31):
I'm a big fan in terms of mytherapy work of EMDR I was
fairly late to the game withEMDR.
I think I'd clung to the CBT andschema therapy for so long that
for me to to train in EMDRanother approaches as well like
ACT acceptance and commitmenttherapy.
But I'm a huge fan of EMDR now.
(43:52):
And why, I think because itresonates so much with the 12
steps in terms of the surrenderand letting go process.
I say in, in EMDR, we say gowith that when we're doing the
bilateral stimulation.
Dr Nat Green (44:02):
Yeah.
Yep.
Dr David Lee (44:03):
In 12 step recovery, we say Go with God,
and the idea of being open andfully willing to experience
whatever's coming in the momentto moment it's so powerful.
It's so incredibly powerful.
Dr Nat Green (44:21):
And you can just hear you telling your story,
you.
Show that very clearly of whatyou've been through, all the
horrendous stuff you'venavigated and where you are now.
So tell me a bit more about thework you're doing and what
you're doing in the world now.
'cause I know Yeah.
Things have shifted.
Dr David Lee (44:43):
Things have shifted.
I am the work in, as a clinicalpsychologist in Dubai.
I'm mainly working with clientswith addictions and trauma.
I get a wide range of referrals.
I work with adults, but I willfor a time I was working with
adolescents as well, 12 yearsand upwards.
But I've now I mainly work with16 and upwards now.
So I mainly work with a adults,some older adolescents, early
(45:07):
adults couples as well.
I don't do a great deal ofcouples therapy, but I do some.
Predominantly working in a veryintegrative way.
Often using EMDR with clients insome way.
And, a lot of the work aroundaddiction and trauma that I do
is 12 step informed in some way.
(45:29):
Yeah.
And I did in recent years set upa brand the sober way and was
working mainly online.
Predominantly with males.
And it was around alcoholism andthat was a coaching program.
It wasn't therapy'cause itwasn't in depth, but it was more
like, I guess blending togethersome of my sort of clinical
(45:54):
experience with the livedexperience and developing a
program which was more bespokethan like the 12 steps.
But it wasn't depth psychologyor anything like that.
I think I had some epiphanymoments along the way when I was
working with some clients aspart of that program.
(46:14):
One is that I didn't feel that Ihad got it quite right and it
wasn't quite what I wanted todo.
So I thought I'd shelved that,put it on hold and see what
spoke to me later.
And I think now I'm forming moreof an idea of what I wanna do.
And it's more about shadow work,but we hear a lot about shadow
work in this day and age.
You can you can just pick up ashadow work journal off Amazon.
(46:35):
I think that probably, yeah,ChatGPT wrote for somebody.
But I would like to develop aprogram that is around facing
the shadow in a way that.
Has been inspired, my own livedexperience, and I think
initially possibly to work withmen but eventually to work with
(46:55):
ladies, non-binary folk howeveryou define yourself.
But there's, there has to be astarting point from it.
And because I'm a heterosexualmale who's been through this
experience, I, and knows what itis like to navigate that path.
But that said, I clinically Iwork with, I think about 80% of
my clients are female.
But I, so what I'm saying is I'mstill working clinically, but I
(47:19):
want to go much more down theworking online again.
Both one-to-one and groupcoaching program.
But I wanna go beyond that aswell.
Like my passion is really towrite as well.
My passion is I think forlanguage to write, to speak So I
(47:40):
want to create movements basedon my own understanding and
lived the experience of what itis to look into the shadow, to
recover from trauma, recoverfrom addiction, and to live
lives where we can flourish.
That's the direction I'm nowlooking to move in i'm still
working clinically.
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (47:59):
But I love this future vision that you've got
for yourself because I think youhave shown exactly what it's
like to navigate that path, tobe a success from where you've
come from.
And I know it's it's still awork in progress.
It's always a work in progress.
The journey's never done.
Dr David Lee (48:20):
Absolutely.
I'm smiling because I was gonnasay that and I wasn't clear,
like when I set up the soberway, I wasn't clear that's what
I wanted to do, but that was thefirst iteration of something,
right?
Dr Nat Green (48:30):
Yeah.
Dr David Lee (48:30):
Because the journey that we're on isn't
clear.
I'm not really sure what's gonnahappen today.
I think I know what I'm doingthis afternoon and possibly this
evening, but I don't know howit's gonna transpire.
The jet lag might kick in and Imight go to bed early.
And and then we have all sortsof things that are unforeseen
that come up that we, thatsuddenly changed the course of
(48:52):
the day and changed the courseof life.
I'm okay with the uncertaintynow.
That's what I'm saying.
I know I have a sense of thedirection I'm moving in.
I dunno exactly what it's, whatthe first offer is gonna really
look like, but I think I havesome sense of what I'm being
called to do.
So I'm okay with thatuncertainty as I move forward.
And I'm even, and totally finewith the idea that.
(49:17):
I may let go of labels,identities completely.
'cause I'm not my identity.
I don't really need to be aclinical psychologist
Dr Nat Green (49:26):
No.
Dr David Lee (49:26):
Or a coach or anything.
I'm somebody who has walked apath and is still walking a path
and can share life experience.
Part of my life experience aswell as addiction recovery and
trauma recovery and all of thatstuff is to have worked for some
time as a clinical psychologistand done X number of
qualifications.
So that all comes together.
And I think when I trust in Godand just let go it.
(49:48):
It's all ego stuff to say I'm apsychologist, or a coach or a
thought leader, or whatever.
The reality is, it doesn'tmatter if you can help people
and you can find a way to reachthem, and more importantly, if
they can find, if they are drawnto you and life leads them on
that path, it will happen.
I know that because I'veexperienced that countless times
(50:10):
in my life and continue toexperience that day in, day out.
So yeah, it's having faith
Dr Nat Green (50:16):
and it's also, it then becomes part of, you were
born to do that and you knowyou'll continue to go along the
path that you're meant to go on.
Dr David Lee (50:25):
So it's trusting, is it?
It's trusting sometimes blindly,but trusting also from feeling,
and that's faith, it's goingwith grace and having faith that
you are doing what you are meantto be doing, and if there are
temporary problems along the waywe won't perish.
Dr Nat Green (50:45):
Yeah.
So you've said like you'vespoken very much about
spirituality and faith.
Would you say, David, thatthere's any other specific
qualities or personal attributesthat you see as being key for
someone who's moving throughtrauma and into post-traumatic
growth?
Dr David Lee (51:10):
I think honesty.
And I think that's honesty withlook on a number of levels,
being honest about what'shappened, being honest about
where you are.
And that from my livedexperience, I was the
psychologist and therapistmasquerading as the expert who
was deeply wounded.
(51:32):
Yeah.
And suffering in a whole lot ofpain.
But the ego was portrayingsomething else.
Dr Nat Green (51:37):
So the
Dr David Lee (51:37):
light was the suited, booted, do media
interviews and speaking on stageand claiming to be the expert.
The shadow was the underbelly oflife, of pain.
And so honesty about that kindof honesty about where you are
at whether we all make mistakesin life, but, and I had to face
(51:57):
my mistakes with rigoroushonesty.
But honesty as to where you arehow many people carry on as if
they're invulnerable and they'reI can carry on.
And life they're breaking, theirbodies are breaking down, but
they're still trying to work sixdays a week.
Exactly.
See a caseload of however manypeople whether you're you are a
(52:22):
therapist or not.
So honesty naturally goes withaccountability for me.
And that's accountability foractually doing the work, yeah.
I learned that, and I can'tremember who first told me this
was that, God can movemountains, but you have to bring
the shovel.
Dr Nat Green (52:41):
I love it.
You don't
Dr David Lee (52:42):
just turn up.
I haven't just turned up andit's been easy.
Oh yeah.
I'll just sit back and God willdo all the work.
But there is an accountabilitypart to recovering from trauma
and I think to post traumaticgrowth, post addiction growth,
however you wanna look at it,post adversity growth.
There is a honesty andaccountability go hand in hand.
(53:05):
And I also think the the otherthing which I don't think is so
much of a quality is.
Willingness.
And I think that's aboutwillingness and open-mindedness.
So you we talk about inrecovery, honesty,
open-mindedness and willingness.
I think the willingness issometimes to let go of defiance
(53:25):
and open up to a new way.
And it's not, you can't reallyexplain how you become willing
to let go of everything.
How do you become willing to letgo of the future and your idea
of what the future's gonna belike?
How do you let go of this ideathat I don't know, you may not
(53:47):
live in the big house in thecountryside that you want.
You may end up somewhere else.
You may not end up married withfour kids or whatever.
Life may take you down adifferent path.
How do you let go and becomewilling to not try to control
the future and control peopleplaces and things?
Dr Nat Green (54:07):
Great
Dr David Lee (54:07):
question again but, and for me it's it's facing
up to what's already there quiteoften the clue is usually in the
pain, but a lot of people don'twant to explore those pain
points.
Dr Nat Green (54:22):
Yeah.
And I think that's, that,willingness as in being willing
to explore the pain points andlike you said, the shadows and
really be open to doing the workno matter how painful it is.
That's very key.
Yeah, that's
Dr David Lee (54:39):
right.
And once again, you don't dothis work alone.
And you don't just look into theshadow and feel the shame and
the terror and all of that stuffand just stay there.
You go with grace and you, andthere is a whole I think one of
(55:01):
the most brilliant sort ofinnovations, if you like in
recent years is some of thetechnical advances that we've
made in terms of health, mindbody integration, but comes
through neuroscience and biologyand things like polyvagal
theory, for example.
Dr Nat Green (55:18):
Yeah.
Dr David Lee (55:18):
There is a way of being with trauma and pain and
adversity and whatever and shameof what lies in the shadow.
In a contained way through beingconnected in a safe way towards
others through the breath.
Dr Nat Green (55:31):
Through
Dr David Lee (55:32):
Mindful and curious, compassionate
exploration of the body.
We don't just jump into theshadow and get lost there.
Dr Nat Green (55:41):
No.
Dr David Lee (55:42):
We don't need to do that.
We have
Dr Nat Green (55:43):
to manage our nervous system in the process as
we do that, for sure.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
David, as we move to wrapping upthe conversation, where can our
listeners find out more aboutyou and find you online?
Dr David Lee (55:56):
Yeah I'm in a state of transition, I think, in
terms of social media, butsomething we will be coming
next.
I don't know what exactly, butyou can find me for now.
On linked LinkedIn as Dr.
David A.
Lee.
Yeah, Dr.
David Lee psychology.
On Instagram.
Those are the places that's bestto find me.
(56:16):
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (56:16):
Yeah.
And we'll put that in the shownotes.
And I always finish ourinterviews with one of my
favorite questions.
So David, what do you think youryounger self would think of what
you've achieved?
Dr David Lee (56:36):
If I could just as I'm not avoiding the question,
but if I could try and re rewordit a little bit, I would wonder
not so much about theachievement as what would he
make of the kind of person thatyou have become.
Exactly.
And the way that I now live dayto day, I think that he
(57:02):
probably, I.
I would not believe that youdon't have to live from a state
of constantly feeling thatyou're in danger or you don't
have to live from a place whereyou are constantly striving and
doing and pushing.
(57:22):
He probably wouldn't quitebelieve that.
You can come to a way where youcan be centered and present and
part of attending to life, thebusiness of life each day is
about being, rather than doingand being grounded and centered
and showing up for others andfor yourself.
(57:43):
I don't think he wouldunderstand that, but he would
have some sense of, wow, this iswhat it now looks like.
And what a journey I must haveto go on to get there.
But yeah.
'cause I would have noconception of that as a young,
as a boy or as an early adult oreven 10, 15 years ago.
I would have no, no concept ofthat.
Dr Nat Green (58:05):
Wow.
Little David's come so
Dr David Lee (58:08):
far.
I think I'd take little Davidwith me young David.
And I still do that each andevery day.
I have to find a way to turn tohim each and every day to
nurture with compassion and thenadult David takes care of the
stuff that adults should takecare of.
'cause little boys shouldn'thave to take care of
Dr Nat Green (58:27):
Some
Dr David Lee (58:28):
of the things that life throws at us, but he might
need to be contained and heldwith compassion and then we move
forward with faith.
and Courage.
I
Dr Nat Green (58:39):
love that.
Absolutely.
Courage.
And I thought that a bit earlierwhen we were talking that you
didn't mention courage, but Ireally wanna acknowledge the
courage it takes you, it hastaken you to move forward.
Yeah.
And live every day and show upin the way that you show up.
Dr David Lee (58:58):
Yeah.
And I'm sorry I missed that.
'cause that is really importantfor me as well.
And that's something that Iobserve in my clients and it's
something that I think I and Iremember that I do commend in my
clients is the courage that thiswork take.
And it's always so inspiring to,to see changing clients and to
recognize that.
You did this from a place ofcourage, yeah.
(59:19):
And that is needed.
Yeah.
That's needed at the outset,really.
That when you stand at theturning point and you have an
opportunity to do this work,courage is needed.
Yeah.
For sure.
Dr Nat Green (59:28):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much David forchatting with us today.
I know our listeners are gonnahave loved this conversation.
I'm so grateful.
My pleasure.
Dr David Lee (59:38):
Na, my pleasure.
Dr Nat Green (59:40):
You enjoy the rest of your time in the uk.
I hope the jet lags not too bad,and talk to you soon.
Thank you.
I'll go
Dr David Lee (59:46):
and get some rest.
Thanks very much Nat.
Thanks for having me.
Dr Nat Green (59:53):
Thank you for joining me in this episode of
Growing Tall Poppies.
It is my deepest hope thattoday's episode may have
inspired and empowered you tostep fully into your
post-traumatic growth, so thatyou can have absolute clarity
around who you are, what mattersthe most to you, and to assist
(01:00:16):
you to release your negativeemotions.
And regulate your nervous systemso you can fully thrive.
New episodes are published everyTuesday, and I hope you'll
continue to join us as weexplore both the strategies and
the personal qualities requiredto fully live a life of
(01:00:36):
post-traumatic growth and tothrive.
So if it feels aligned to youand really resonates, then I
invite you to hit subscribe andit would mean the world to us.
If you could share this episodewith others who you feel may
benefit too, you may also findme on Instagram at Growing Tall
(01:00:57):
Poppies and Facebook, Dr.
Natalie Green.
Remember, every moment is anopportunity to look for the
lessons and to learn andincrease your ability to live
the life you desire and deserve.
So for now, stay connected.
Stay inspired.
(01:01:18):
Stand tall like the tall poppyyou are, and keep shining your
light brightly in the world.
Bye for.
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