In this deeply moving and transformative episode of Growing Tall Poppies, Dr. Nat Green welcomes the remarkable Dr. Selma Music — clinical psychologist, neuroscientist, confidence and visibility coach, and founder of Rise Above Borders.
Selma’s story is one of unimaginable trauma, extraordinary resilience, and radiant post-traumatic growth. As a war survivor, refugee, eldest daughter of migrants, and now a trailblazing leader for migrant women, Selma shares her powerful journey from invisibility and identity loss to bold, values-led leadership.
Together, Nat and Selma explore how trauma shapes identity and visibility, how post-traumatic growth requires community, and how to rise — without apology, without burnout, and without betraying who you are.
🎧 In This Episode, You’ll Hear:
Highlights
- Selma’s early life surviving the Bosnian War and losing close family to genocide
- Navigating identity loss as a displaced child, refugee, and new migrant
- The silent burden of being the eldest daughter of migrants
- Why playfulness, joy, and connection were missing pieces — and how she reclaimed them
- The unseen pressures of being the “first” in education and career
- Her shift from academic success to living aligned with her soul
- Healing visibility wounds and leading without betraying your values
- How imposter syndrome can be a protective part, not just a mindset flaw
- The dangers of traditional leadership programs that ignore trauma and cultural identity
- Why a trauma-informed, holistic approach is essential for post-traumatic growth
- The mission of Rise Above Borders and how it’s helping migrant women lead safely and boldly
- The importance of community, not just therapy, in long-term healing
- What Selma would tell her younger self — and how she’s become the lighthouse for others
💬 You’ll Love This Episode If You’ve Ever Asked:
- “Why do I still feel unsafe being seen?”
- “How do I lead without losing myself or betraying my roots?”
- “Can joy and leadership coexist after trauma?”
- “Is there a community that truly gets me?”
- “Why does my imposter syndrome feel like survival, not self-sabotage?”
Key Takeaways:
✔️ Hope for your healing
✔️ Permission to lead as your whole self
✔️ Insight into how trauma shapes identity
✔️ Strategies for safe, authentic visibility
✔️ A heartfelt reminder that you're not alone
📣 Connect with Dr. Selma Music:
Instagram: @RiseAboveBorders
📬 DM her to connect, collaborate or just say hey - go over to Insta -This is where she is most active and real conversations happen.
💥 Final Words from Dr. Selma:
“Imposter syndrome kept me safe. But now, I don’t need to hide. I’m here — whole, visible, and leading others to rise.”
💛 Final Words from Dr Nat:
“Selma is not just s
If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreen
Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.
Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Nat Green (00:01):
Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nat Green, and I'm so excited tohave you join me as we discuss
what it means to navigate yourway through post-traumatic
growth and not just survive, butto thrive after trauma.
(00:23):
Through our podcast, we willexplore ways for you to create a
life filled with greaterpurpose, self-awareness, and a
deep inner peace.
Through integrating the manyyears of knowledge and
professional experience, as wellas the wisdom of those who have
experienced trauma firsthand.
(00:44):
We'll combine psychologyaccelerated approaches.
Coaching and personal experienceto assist you, to learn, to grow
and to thrive.
I hope to empower you to createdeeper awareness and
understanding and strongerconnections with yourself and
with others, whilst also pavingthe way for those who have
(01:08):
experienced trauma and adversityto reduce their suffering and
become the very best versions ofthemselves.
In order to thrive.
Thank you so much for joining meon today's episode.
(01:28):
I am super excited and gratefultoday to bring you our next
guest on the Growing TallPoppies podcast.
It's my absolute pleasure towelcome an amazing lady who I am
so blessed to call a specialfriend, and her journey and
story is nothing short ofremarkable.
(01:49):
She's experienced and overcome agreat deal of trauma and
adversity through her life.
And has agreed to come and chatwith us today about her personal
and professional experience andto share her new, exciting focus
with us.
So let me start by welcomingSelma Music.
(02:09):
Dr.
Selma is a clinicalpsychologist, neuroscientist, as
well as the founder of RiseAbove Borders, where she's a
confidence and visibility coachfor migrant women.
Leaders and she helps impactdriven, soul led and high
achieving daughters of migrantsto lead bold and
unapologetically.
(02:30):
And she helps migrant womencultivate intentional lives to
rise on their terms.
So welcome Selma.
Dr Selma Music (02:38):
Oh, thank you for having me.
What a wonderful introduction,Nat.
I'm so excited to be here withyou.
Dr Nat Green (02:45):
It's been a little while in the planning and
making, but I'm really excitedto.
Share the space with you today,and I know that our audience is
gonna love you and all that youcan share with us.
So can we just start with yougiving us a brief introduction
of who you are and what you doin the world?
Dr Selma Music (03:07):
Like you said, I am a clinical psychologist and a
neuroscientist, as well as avisibility and confidence coach
for migrant women.
I work with adult children ofmigrants in my clinical space,
but in my playful and joyfulspace to like balance the two
(03:29):
worlds I work with adultdaughters of migrants and
migrant women.
Basically to, I'm on this bigmission to inspire and empower
them to create impact drivenlives.
And that has been one of themost life changing experiences
(03:52):
for me actually, to be in thatspace of, community with these
women.
I.
Founded Rise Above Borders tocreate a community because I've,
noticed that there actuallyisn't one for women who come
from migrant backgrounds, and ithas been such a joy to be in
(04:16):
that space.
Dr Nat Green (04:18):
And as you say that, Sel, I just, I love
watching you light up, and Iknow that this is your absolute
love and passion, and like yousaid, you really are on a huge
mission.
And I'd love it if you couldshare a bit of your background
and your story so it gives evenmore context to why you're doing
(04:41):
what you're doing.
Dr Selma Music (04:43):
So I guess to give you a bit of a perspective
I'll probably have to start fromthe very start.
Dr Nat Green (04:51):
I love that, which is
Dr Selma Music (04:53):
very, let's go.
Thanks.
So I am of Bosnian backgroundand if you know much about
history, Bosnia had a.
War in their nineties.
That went for about three or soyears, and because of the war
and the impact that it's had onmy family and the many losses in
(05:18):
my family we.
Sought asylum actually inSwitzerland.
So that's where we went and,again it's not only the, war and
the misplaced, internally andexternally displacement that
we've experienced, but it's alsothe many losses within our
(05:41):
family as well.
And one thing that I often don'ttalk about is because of the war
in Bosnia I've also.
It's a, little bit tricky toexplain but where I lived before
the war we lived in a tinylittle country town and it's on
the border and now belongs tothe Republic of Serbia.
And we were like one of thefirst impacted by the war.
(06:03):
And that also led to a lot oflives lost Including my dad and
five of my uncles as well.
And that's just like within myimmediate family.
And then the, wider impactthroughout.
So as a young child and oftencome back to this as a young
(06:23):
child it's hard to make sense ofall of that.
Like losing your dad and thenthe wider, family as well, but
then also the displacement andthen trying to integrate as
well.
Within the wider environment.
So when we moved, like when wesought asylum in Switzerland I
(06:46):
remember.
That I always remembered feelingless than there was that, whole
refugee treatment.
And mind you, from what Iremember, like everything was
done as well as you could withinthat space, but it's that
feeling of less than, and Ithink.
(07:08):
That's not, sometimes peopledon't by choice.
And in those sort of likecircumstances And like memory of
feeling different, feeling lessthan feeling, confused about
like my identity as well.
(07:30):
And then moving afterSwitzerland and then we actually
then moved back to Bosnia afterthe war.
But it was just, we couldn'tlive there.
It wasn't really safe for us.
At the time.
So that's how my Mum and my nowstepdad decided to seek asylum
in Australia.
(07:51):
So I came here when I was 16.
Okay.
So 16 yeah.
So I was, it was the end of year10, I remember that.
And yeah, it's been a challengesince in terms of my whole
identity, like who am I?
Where do I belong?
(08:11):
How do I make space for my, the,Bosnian parts of me and then the
Australian parts of me, but thenin between, parts of me and.
Yeah, it's, been a challenge andI guess that's where Rise Above
Borders comes in and the workthat I do clinically as well.
But in terms of Rise AboveBorders, it's I never felt like
(08:35):
I had the guidance that Ineeded, like my parents tried in
terms of they were new migrantsto Australia and they didn't
really know the system.
So it was like trying to always,trying to work out my way and
just not knowing where to ask orwhere to seek help and, and
(08:58):
always almost again, feelingless than because I just had no
idea.
Dr Nat Green (09:03):
And at an age where it's already challenging
enough at 16, a really trickytime to transition to a, change
within the same country, letalone across another whole
country, across all those miles,as well as.
All the loss and the confusion,identity loss can only imagine.
(09:29):
That must have been absolutelyhuge for you.
Dr Selma Music (09:34):
It was, And it took like when you go and you
know this but like when you gothrough something so big, it
shatters so many parts of yourworld.
Yeah.
So a lot of those yearsespecially.
Like when I like really grasp,as I was getting a little bit
older and really not just theevent itself, or the events in
(09:57):
my instance, but it's the impacton every aspect of your life
later on.
And when you when I've arrivedto Australia when I was 16 I've
arrived to a country where I hadno, no friends.
And no knowledge of how anythingworked.
I remember you gonna love thisone.
I remember when I was in year 11I had just come towards the end
(10:21):
of year 10.
And I was moved into year 11 andI didn't actually comprehend
what this VC was at the timeokay.
And then it was oh wait, if Idon't do well here.
Then I can't go to universityand I can't do this.
So there was just a lot ofpressure.
A lot,
Dr Nat Green (10:41):
yeah.
And I went
Dr Selma Music (10:42):
to like a mainstream school where didn't
have people from my backgroundeither, so I didn't really know
what to do with me either.
So it was just floated around.
And had to seek out my ownsupports around there.
Dr Nat Green (10:59):
Yeah.
So you could have easily justflown under the radar and so
easily and fallen off and justgone in a very different
direction to the one you'vechosen
Dr Selma Music (11:11):
so easily.
I don't and it's thatinvisibility.
Yeah.
Of being able to blend in and beinvisible.
And the, people around me, atleast in the sort of like the
schooling system probablywouldn't have even noticed.
Dr Nat Green (11:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that real invisibility acrossso many areas, and you would've
no doubt kept that to yourself.
Absolutely.
And not been sharing that withpeople and Oh, yeah.
Retreated within yourself.
Dr Selma Music (11:46):
Ah, yeah.
It's I often talk about thatsort of I guess like the
maturity that you had to developYeah.
To deal with the world aroundyou at that time.
And like 16 year olds, like whenI look at 16 year olds now, I'm
like, wow, yes.
I had to make some big lifedecisions at that age.
Where, and didn't have that thatteenage playfulness and joy.
(12:13):
I was always quite serious andquite like driven and quite
Yeah, mature, essentiallymature.
And
Dr Nat Green (12:22):
with that maturity, no doubt, that huge
sense of responsibility.
Dr Selma Music (12:28):
Oh, that a lot of children of migrants could
relate to that, sense ofresponsibility not only for
yourself, if you have, and Ishould have probably added to
what, to my history earlier,like the oldest daughter as
well.
Huge sense of responsibility notonly towards myself, but also
(12:52):
towards my siblings and allstepping in when mom and my dad,
like my stepdad struggled.
Their job was to try and getthose basic needs met.
Making sure that we hadsomewhere to live, making sure
that they had jobs, making surethat essentially rebuilding
their whole lives with when theyfirst arrived.
(13:15):
And that's.
Really hard.
So you step in andovercompensate for all the other
bits and show up as as theoldest,
Dr Nat Green (13:25):
yeah.
Dr Selma Music (13:25):
In the family.
A lot
Dr Nat Green (13:27):
of responsibility on your shoulders.
Dr Selma Music (13:30):
So much responsibility that sometimes
and I reflect on this, so likelater, that sometimes I've
forgotten how to be a joyful,playful fun having 16-year-old.
And there are parts of mesometimes that feel those I,
I've missed out.
(13:50):
And I think that's where riseand above borders comes in
because one of the core valueswithin that, within Rise and
Above, borders is playfulness.
Dr Nat Green (14:00):
I love that so much.
It's
Dr Selma Music (14:01):
so important.
Dr Nat Green (14:02):
Oh, absolutely.
Because it's almost like you cannow relive that the bit that you
missed out, and this is yourtime to do that and lead the way
for others who have.
Had to walk in similar shoes toyours as they transition to a
whole new country.
Dr Selma Music (14:20):
Yeah.
And a lot of daughters ofmigrants, like my story is like
a lot of daughters of migrantswould relate to this story of
having to do all of the thingsand having to step in.
So many times and, it'ssometimes we joke about it now,
(14:40):
it's oh, did you have totranslate those documents for
your parents?
Did you have to call the energycompany for your parents?
Yeah, I did that at 12.
And it's like you laugh aboutit, but in reality, if you
actually, if you'd like sit withit and deeply think about it
what did you miss out on?
Because you had to do all ofthose things.
(15:02):
And a lot of the times it wasthat visibility that joyfulness,
that playfulness and thecommunity of people that will
see you.
Dr Nat Green (15:18):
Definitely.
You finished school.
You obviously managed to getthrough that and, move forward
to uni, so you did well enoughand surprised yourself and
everyone else, no doubt.
Yeah I, did
Dr Selma Music (15:36):
exceptionally well, and of course thank you.
I did, yeah, I did well and andthat's the thing.
I remember like through thosesort of year 11 and year 12
translating from like reading mytextbooks and translating from
(15:57):
English into German.
'cause that's the language Ispoke at the time and that's how
my brain functioned and thenpushing through.
Like all of those extra layersof having to do more than
everybody else just to get touniversity at the time.
(16:18):
Yeah.
And then I ended up doing apsychology and psychophysiology,
which is like a neurosciencedegree.
And really loved the, psychologypart always really enjoyed that.
Even like in high school and,but it was hard.
(16:39):
I was the first one in my familyto go to university.
Wow.
Dr Nat Green (16:42):
So there's
Dr Selma Music (16:43):
the burden of that.
Dr Nat Green (16:44):
Yeah.
And trying
Dr Selma Music (16:45):
to navigate all of that within a system that was
not familiar.
That really, I.
If you didn't know what to askfor or where to look like the
help wasn't offered either.
So that was really tricky andoftentimes I didn't even know
what was there.
So I often now mentor a lot ofI.
(17:08):
Sort of first generationmigrants and their children in
terms of like how to ask forhelp and how to, where to look
for help and things like that.
Like there was always a part ofme that was interested in
trauma.
So during those like earlyyears, I, at uni I always read
(17:29):
more about the experience oftrauma.
'cause I, guess like I wastrying to make sense of like my
own experiences and the impact.
That the war and thedisplacement and the refugee
camps and so on had on us.
And then that's how I moved intomy masters and my PhD.
As well.
(17:49):
That's goodness's me.
Dr Nat Green (17:52):
I just happened to get through.
Oh, I may as well do a PhD ontop of that.
Absolutely.
Because I haven't
Dr Selma Music (17:57):
done enough yet.
I haven't done enough.
But this is the interestingthing actually.
So my PhD was in the psychologylike under that umbrella, but it
had a very strong neuroscienceflavor and I was looking at how
trauma impacted resettledrefugees from like a,
(18:22):
neuroimaging perspective.
And we use all sorts of likereally cool equipment that I was
so excited to use.
I bet.
But one of the things that I'verealized while I was doing my
PhD and I was in placement andthen started working in the
field was that I didn't reallywanna be in that system anymore.
(18:46):
And that was really, I thinkthat was like one of those huge.
Wake up calls for me.
Dr Nat Green (18:52):
Yeah.
Dr Selma Music (18:53):
And that was that first time where I had to
put the brakes on and redefinewhat, growth and success and the
lot what kind of life I wantedto lead.
So rather than fall into thetrap of working hard to please.
(19:14):
X, Y, and Z and to get all thesecertificates and diplomas and
qualifications and titles, itdidn't really matter after I was
getting it all, I was like, thisdoesn't actually, there's
nothing in, this.
That's attracting me to thelife.
(19:34):
Interesting.
Dr Nat Green (19:35):
So really you were looking because, and you said
earlier that you felt less thanin, so you were looking for this
external validation, and thenthis sounds like this was your
moment, this first time that youactually thought what about me.
Yeah.
How do I want my life to berather than other people's?
(20:00):
External validation andexpectations.
Yeah.
That's a huge moment for you bythe sound of it.
Dr Selma Music (20:06):
It was a huge moment, Nat.
I guess like the way I reflecton this is there was always a
part of me that was like justtrying to get to the same level
as everybody else.
Yeah.
That was it.
I just wanted to be at the samelevel as everybody else.
And then like with the PhD it's1% of the population, so they're
(20:27):
already painting it in aparticular way.
And I was that doesn't actuallyit didn't mean anything to me.
Yeah.
And if anything, it built quitea lot of resentment actually.
Okay.
Because I felt, it took awayfrom the things that actually
mattered to me, which is myfamily, my relationships, my
(20:48):
relationship with my son.
And it took me a while torecalibrate after that.
Yeah.
And it, was it was a, key momentin time for me where I was I
need to redefine this.
Dr Nat Green (21:05):
I need
Dr Selma Music (21:05):
to redefine what growth or post-traumatic growth
for me looks like.
Yeah.
And not fall into the trap ofwhat other people think I should
be doing.
And.
It was really tricky because Ihad set myself up for an
academic path, which now I waschoosing not to do and what will
(21:26):
everybody else say about this?
Dr Nat Green (21:29):
Yeah of
Dr Selma Music (21:29):
course.
And then I moved into privatepractice and after that I but
even that wasn't quite like theright fit.
I was, it there was always apart of me that.
Was craving that playfulness,that joyfulness energy, that
(21:49):
connection community, and in theclinical setting, you can't
really have that, right?
Yeah.
It's that
Dr Nat Green (21:56):
missing part, isn't it?
When you are seen as theprofessional and you've gotta
put this face and this mask onand show up in a certain way
because the board and societysay that's how it has to be.
This playful part is missing inthat clinical space.
So again, absolutely.
(22:18):
That bit that you'd alreadymissed out on for so much of
your life, you were getting moreand more in tune with the fact
that you needed that.
Dr Selma Music (22:27):
Absolutely.
I think it's like a key part.
Yeah.
Key part.
And when I see that part of menow, sometimes I don't it almost
feels like the most, the real,the purest me.
And I welcome it with so muchjoy.
Dr Nat Green (22:50):
Oh, that's beautiful.
I just obviously I've known youa little while now and, when I
think of Sel, I think someonewho has fun and is hilarious.
So that's all I've known.
And to hear you say that thiswasn't part of you.
(23:10):
It's heartbreaking, but it's sobeautiful at the same time
because I think wow, you havebrought that in and embraced her
so beautifully that yeah, it'snatural now.
But that's not how it was allyour life really.
Dr Selma Music (23:25):
No, that was so far so far from my life.
If you had told 16-year-old me.
Oh, there's no way.
I would've been like, no way.
Because other people would'vedescribed me as the most
serious, the most mature, themost, yeah.
(23:51):
Not, completely differentenergy.
And I just didn't, that didn'talign with how I wanted to live
my life, like my own life, butalso how I wanted to be in the
world.
That is not how I wanted to bein the world.
And I think and the other partwithin that is I wanted, to, do
(24:13):
all of this without betraying myvalues.
I think that's the other key bitor without not showing up with
my Bosnian parts as well as likemy Australian Swiss world parts
(24:33):
and all of the bits that I'vetaken with me along the way.
And I think that's the mostimportant bit for me.
To show up without betraying myvalues.
Dr Nat Green (24:45):
Yes.
So obviously this experiencethat you've been through has
really changed your perspectiveon life, on relationships and
values.
How have you managed to embracethat in the way that you have
now?
Dr Selma Music (25:05):
I love that question.
Thanks.
I it has several parts to it.
So I, again, I have to jump backto the war.
One of the things during the oneof I was persecuted because of
who I was essentially.
That's what that was like, who Iwas as a person because of my
name, because of myspirituality, because of X, Y,
(25:27):
and Z.
And then you are Taught to hide.
Yeah.
'cause it's a it's safe.
You don't wanna show the worldwho you are because essentially
a, lot of people within myfamily died because of who they
were.
So visibility is unsafe.
(25:48):
That's essentially what I havelearned.
Visibility is unsafe.
So hide and fade into thebackground.
Dr Nat Green (25:57):
Yeah.
Dr Selma Music (25:59):
But then when you try to be more authentic to
who you are, when you try toshow up and lead visibly how,
those two things are reallycontrast, right?
And I think one of the thingsthat we need to remember, and
this is that kind of like traumainformed way of, being and
(26:20):
leading to expect.
Yourself to go from one extremeto the other is unrealistic and
unreasonable, right?
Dr Nat Green (26:31):
Yeah,
Dr Selma Music (26:31):
definitely.
And it's unsafe, essentially.
So what I did was I climbedlittle took little steps along
the way.
And if you had told me that Iwas going to even share parts of
my story with you like 10 yearsago, I wouldn't have believed
you Nat.
Dr Nat Green (26:50):
No.
Dr Selma Music (26:51):
There's no way I would've even spoken about any
of this 10 years ago.
No.
Would've felt too unsafe.
Too unsafe, too uncomfortable,too too visible.
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (27:03):
Yeah.
Dr Selma Music (27:04):
But now I know that those are the things, all
of these lived experiences arethe things that make me who I
am.
And make me lead in the way thatI want to lead and make, and are
the things that contribute to meshowing up in the world.
The way I want to show up.
Dr Nat Green (27:23):
Oh, I love that.
Honestly, I love that so much.
Look at you and how far you havecome.
It's, oh, it gives me so muchjoy to just hear your story, but
know how far away from thatyoung, that little girl and then
(27:43):
that 16-year-old girl you arenow.
But I know it's come at hugecost and with a lot of
tumultuous times along the way.
Dr Selma Music (27:55):
Yeah.
And the other thing as well,Nat, which is really interesting
kinda popped into my head justnow, is part of my Rise Above
Borders is the, program is, orone of the programs is.
dismantling imposter syndrome.
which kind of feeds into this.
(28:18):
Yeah.
So one of the things is to leadsafely and within to reclaim
that voice to lead visibly andwithout apology, right?
But you always have to come backto the part of where did this
come from?
Dr Nat Green (28:36):
Why
Dr Selma Music (28:37):
was it there?
How did it shield you fromeverything that you've
experienced along the way?
If I had been visible, then thatwould've been unsafe.
Dr Nat Green (28:48):
Oh, absolutely.
If I had
Dr Selma Music (28:49):
been visible at different times in my life that
would've been unsafe.
So there is a part of me that'salways grateful to that.
Dr Nat Green (28:57):
Yes.
Dr Selma Music (28:58):
You know that I'll call it my little imposter
syndrome.
I, actually love that part of me'cause that part is what kept me
safe.
But I am here now.
And all I need to I always talkto it, I'm like, it's okay.
Oh, that's beautiful.
Yeah.
Because you have a lot to thankher for.
Dr Nat Green (29:19):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Because it, yeah.
And I love that you areembracing all the parts.
Like you talk a lot about thedifferent parts of you, but
you've really worked beautifullyto blend them together to be a
whole part now,
Dr Selma Music (29:36):
and that's what it feels like.
Dr Nat Green (29:38):
Yeah,
Dr Selma Music (29:39):
that's what it feels like.
More, whole than I've ever been.
Dr Nat Green (29:43):
And.
Now seems like the perfect timeto talk more about your Rise
Above Borders and reallyshowcase the amazing vision that
you have for these beautifulmigrant women that you are going
to lead.
So tell us about that.
Dr Selma Music (30:04):
I get so excited.
I can't even sit in my seatexcited.
I love so much.
I literally, I'm like, Ooh let'sdo that.
So the mission of Rise AboveBorders is to.
Inspire and empower ambitiousimpact driven soul-led daughters
of migrants and migrant womenleaders who are essentially done
(30:27):
playing small.
And we do this by teaching thepractical tools and strategies
to dismantle imposter syndromeand reclaim your voice.
Lead visibly, leadunapologetically.
But without burning out orbetraying the person's values.
(30:48):
And I think that's the key part.
And the, program is really forbasically first generation
people like me, essentially,right?
Yeah.
First generation migrant women,refugee, backgrounds, adult
children of migrants, eldestdaughters, and any sort of if
(31:11):
you find yourself in that space,that's, this is what Rise Above
Borders is and,.
It's for people who have similarto me.
We've accomplished all of thesethings, but they are still
invisible.
So we want them to move forward,create the impact that they want
(31:33):
to create.
And I think that's the otherthing, create the impact.
And I often talk about what isthe cost of being invisible?
Yeah.
Who what is the world missingout on?
Because you didn't have the,community and the strength and
the strategies and the tools tomove forward to rise.
(31:56):
So I get so excited because I,just I just, I get, to be in
community with, women who areprofessionals, high achievers
leaders business owners, and tounderstand why things have
happened in that trauma informedsafe way and to, design a
(32:21):
blueprint forward, but in a safeway.
That's what Rise Above Bordersreally is.
Dr Nat Green (32:29):
Oh, honestly, it's.
Absolutely brilliant.
And I watch you light up.
I know that I get to watch it onvideo and everyone will be
listening to it, but we'lldefinitely put this one on
YouTube and the video so peoplecan see how much you light up.
And I just think what a gift youare to this world and to be able
(32:54):
to share that.
With so many other beautifulmigrant women who are also so
capable, but feeling invisibleor not safe to be visible, how
much more we can help once youget this out in the world and
(33:15):
really ramp things up even more.
I just think look how far you'vecome and your brilliance has
been allowed to shine andimagine what.
It's gonna do when so manyothers shine as well.
Dr Selma Music (33:29):
I think the the impact that they will make and
the difference that they willleave in the world.
Oh,
Dr Nat Green (33:40):
yes.
Dr Selma Music (33:41):
I'm getting goosebumps.
Oh, no.
Speaking about it, right?
So I'm here for it.
I am so here for
Dr Nat Green (33:50):
it.
Absolutely.
Oh, honestly, it's so excitingand I know you're getting closer
and really getting it ready tolaunch and get out in the world
fully, no longer keeping itinvisible.
Absolutely.
excellent So if you could shareone thing.
(34:13):
With our listeners that wouldhelp them as they navigate their
post-trauma or work throughovercoming their adversity and
move into post-traumatic growth,what would that be?
Dr Selma Music (34:26):
Find your community.
I think that's, the key.
Find the people that willunderstand where you're coming
from, will not gaslight, you
Dr Nat Green (34:40):
will
Dr Selma Music (34:40):
not dismiss you.
Find the people that willunderstand where you've come
from, what you have experienced,and that will cheer you on and
have your back.
I think that's, the key.
(35:01):
Because we are people who'veexperienced trauma are often
really good at doing things ontheir own.
Like that hyper independence,like it's usually a very strong
part to us.
Dr Nat Green (35:14):
Yeah.
Funny that
Dr Selma Music (35:15):
isn't it.
But even though that has servedus the growth or to grow means
to find people to be incommunity with.
Dr Nat Green (35:29):
Yes.
Oh, that, I think that's, thebig, that's key.
I completely agree.
And, you touched on that beingdismissed, being gaslit, and
that's such a big part of it,isn't it?
That people and that's why I'vecalled this growing tall poppies
because people.
(35:50):
Really like to cut down the tallpoppies, the ones that are game
to stand out.
And a lot of us dull our lightor take that shine off ourselves
to keep ourselves invisible andsafe.
But what we know is important isyou can't do it on your own,
(36:11):
even though you've done reallywell on your own for a long
time.
Dr Selma Music (36:14):
Yep.
Dr Nat Green (36:15):
It's about having community who will cheer you on
and champion you and show youthat it can be safe to shine
your light in the world and holdyou up rather than cut you down.
So what a beautiful thing foryou to share and tell me, do you
(36:37):
think there's any specificpersonal attributes or qualities
that are also key?
To helping someone move fromtrauma into post-traumatic
growth.
Dr Selma Music (36:50):
Openness to, and I'm speaking from my own
personal experience here, Ithink openness to embrace things
that are different, maybe notthe way.
That you have been taught allthe templates that you have had
all your life, and there'snothing wrong with those
templates.
(37:10):
They got you to where you are.
But being able to embrace doingthings differently, embracing
anything that they can help.
Alleviate some of the, pain thatwe've experienced.
(37:31):
So what I mean by that isthere's no straight path to
healing, and we all know that.
And it might not look like thetextbook.
Modalities that people suggest.
So I always say to everyone thatI work with the way you heal it
(37:59):
it's gonna be different foreveryone.
And we want to embrace thechange and we want to look at it
from a holistic point of view.
Dr Nat Green (38:07):
Yeah.
Dr Selma Music (38:09):
That's the thing.
Dr Nat Green (38:11):
Definitely.
And I think that's a key thingfrom I know you and I have
talked about this, that it's soimportant that we're holistic
and as you've said it's, veryfitting that you've talked about
different parts.
So one part of you would wantthis and one part would want
this, and one part would wantthat.
And we are all as human beingsthe same.
(38:32):
In that.
There's parts of us that needcertain things and parts that
don't need those things.
So we have to be holistic.
And treat the person as a wholehuman being.
Absolutely.
Not just what people think weshould be or what we think we
should
Dr Selma Music (38:50):
be.
With also taking into accountall the environmental and
systematic.
Dr Nat Green (38:59):
Yes.
Dr Selma Music (39:00):
Factors that impact someone's mental health
and not assume that it's the,person only.
There are so many factors oradditional factors that can
sometimes have more detrimentalimpacts on the person,
definitely than the eventitself.
So I think it's like open tochange, open to, to changing
(39:23):
your templates, but also thewider sort of environment needs
to be considered and all thoseother factors as well.
Dr Nat Green (39:34):
Yeah, definitely.
Just imagine if all of thoseparts of you, all the old
environmental things and all theold experiences had never been
taken into account.
The same as what you wanna dofor all these migrant women that
you are going to work with thatif you can't see all of them,
(39:57):
absolutely.
You can't help them.
Dr Selma Music (39:58):
No, this absolutely right.
So if you, for example have aleadership program for that,
where you don't take intoaccount a trauma background, a
migrant background, a visibilityissues, and safety issues around
that, and you push people into,whatever it is that you're
(40:22):
pushing them into that is sounsafe and and it's not taking
into account the whole person.
You need to design theseprograms in a way, in a holistic
way with all of those factors inmind.
Dr Nat Green (40:39):
Most definitely.
Yeah.
So is there anything else you'dlike to share with us your
wisdom or lived experiences havetaught you that you think would
be really helpful?
Dr Selma Music (40:56):
I think the, thing that had the most, and
I've said this before, but Ifeel like it needs to be
emphasized.
The thing that had the mostimpact on me as a human, that
has led to the greatest, like Idid.
Lots of therapy, lots ofcoaching.
Yeah.
Lots of that.
But I think all in the end, Ithink that those are all
(41:18):
important.
Yeah.
But it is finding your peoplethat has been.
Transformational.
Yeah.
Finding your people.
Like you said earlier, that ispeople that will hold you up.
That has been the greatest giftto me.
(41:42):
And Nat you are one of them.
Dr Nat Green (41:44):
Sel thank you and you are one of mine.
Absolutely.
Finding your people andcommunity are key takeaways from
this conversation.
And you've so generously andopenly been so vulnerable and
shared your experience.
One thing that I often like tostart to wrap things up with is,
(42:06):
what do you think?
We've already touched on this alittle bit.
Youngest self would think ofwhat you've done and where you
are now.
Dr Selma Music (42:15):
As you ask that question.
I notice like goosebumps allover love it.
I think she would be so proud,like my youngest self, when
someone says young and stuff,I've always imagine they're
5-year-old.
Yeah.
And there's no way that there's,a part of her that doesn't
(42:37):
believe this to be the realityof my life, but she would be so
proud that I am showing theworld who I am, but also shining
the light.
(42:58):
On, the experiences that I'vehad and that I am talking about
them openly and that that I'mcreating a blueprint for others
to follow and that is, andmaking it easier and more.
(43:22):
Joyful.
Dr Nat Green (43:23):
Yes.
I love it as your whole facelights up and as you were
talking about that, I gotgoosebumps and I just thought,
oh my goodness.
She would be so proud.
Yeah.
And yes, you're shining a light,but I personally think you are
being the lighthouse.
Oh, you are beaming that out toother people so that you can be
(43:49):
that safe place in otherpeople's storm and teach them
how to be safe and to shinetheir lights in the world.
I honestly, I'm just so blessedto know you and so grateful, so
Sel As we move to wrapping theconversation up, where can
(44:09):
people find you and connect you?
And let me just preface thiswith Selma is the social media
queen, and Selma teaches all ofus about how we should be doing
our messaging when some of usaren't doing it so well.
So Selma is hilarious to watchon her Instagram.
(44:32):
Videos and I guarantee youshould all check in and find out
more about Sel
Dr Selma Music (44:38):
I love it.
Thank you.
How to show up safely andvisibly.
I think that's, the key, thing.
The best way to get in touchwith me is to follow me online
on Instagram, which is my handleis Rise Above Borders.
So just.
Find me there and connect.
(44:59):
Send me a dm.
I'd love to hear from you.
Dr Nat Green (45:03):
Honestly it's, been such a joy and you honestly
bring so much joy into my life,other people's lives, and it's
honestly such a pleasure to havehad you on here.
Thank you so much.
Sel
Dr Selma Music (45:18):
thank you, Nat.
It's been such a joy.
Dr Nat Green (45:21):
Bye for now.
Thank you for joining me in thisepisode of Growing Tall Poppies.
It is my deepest hope thattoday's episode may have
inspired and empowered you tostep fully into your
post-traumatic growth, so thatyou can have absolute clarity
(45:45):
around who you are, what mattersthe most to you, and to assist
you to release your negativeemotions.
And regulate your nervous systemso you can fully thrive.
New episodes are published everyTuesday, and I hope you'll
continue to join us as weexplore both the strategies and
(46:06):
the personal qualities requiredto fully live a life of
post-traumatic growth and tothrive.
So if it feels aligned to youand really resonates, then I
invite you to hit subscribe andit would mean the world to us.
If you could share this episodewith others who you feel may
benefit too, you may also findme on Instagram at Growing Tall
(46:31):
Poppies and Facebook, Dr.
Natalie Green.
Remember, every moment is anopportunity to look for the
lessons and to learn andincrease your ability to live
the life you desire and deserve.
So for now, stay connected.
Stay inspired.
(46:52):
Stand tall like the tall poppyyou are, and keep shining your
light brightly in the world.
Bye for.
Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nat Green, and I'm so excited tohave you join me as we discuss
what it means to navigate yourway through post-traumatic
growth and not just survive, butto thrive after trauma.
(00:23):
Through our podcast, we willexplore ways for you to create a
life filled with greaterpurpose, self-awareness, and a
deep inner peace.
Through integrating the manyyears of knowledge and
professional experience, as wellas the wisdom of those who have
experienced trauma firsthand.
(00:44):
We'll combine psychologyaccelerated approaches.
Coaching and personal experienceto assist you, to learn, to grow
and to thrive.
I hope to empower you to createdeeper awareness and
understanding and strongerconnections with yourself and
with others, whilst also pavingthe way for those who have
(01:08):
experienced trauma and adversityto reduce their suffering and
become the very best versions ofthemselves.
In order to thrive.
Thank you so much for joining meon today's episode.
(01:28):
I am super excited and gratefultoday to bring you our next
guest on the Growing TallPoppies podcast.
It's my absolute pleasure towelcome an amazing lady who I am
so blessed to call a specialfriend, and her journey and
story is nothing short ofremarkable.
(01:49):
She's experienced and overcome agreat deal of trauma and
adversity through her life.
And has agreed to come and chatwith us today about her personal
and professional experience andto share her new, exciting focus
with us.
So let me start by welcomingSelma Music.
(02:09):
Dr.
Selma is a clinicalpsychologist, neuroscientist, as
well as the founder of RiseAbove Borders, where she's a
confidence and visibility coachfor migrant women.
Leaders and she helps impactdriven, soul led and high
achieving daughters of migrantsto lead bold and
unapologetically.
(02:30):
And she helps migrant womencultivate intentional lives to
rise on their terms.
So welcome Selma.
Dr Selma Music (02:38):
Oh, thank you for having me.
What a wonderful introduction,Nat.
I'm so excited to be here withyou.
Dr Nat Green (02:45):
It's been a little while in the planning and
making, but I'm really excitedto.
Share the space with you today,and I know that our audience is
gonna love you and all that youcan share with us.
So can we just start with yougiving us a brief introduction
of who you are and what you doin the world?
Dr Selma Music (03:07):
Like you said, I am a clinical psychologist and a
neuroscientist, as well as avisibility and confidence coach
for migrant women.
I work with adult children ofmigrants in my clinical space,
but in my playful and joyfulspace to like balance the two
(03:29):
worlds I work with adultdaughters of migrants and
migrant women.
Basically to, I'm on this bigmission to inspire and empower
them to create impact drivenlives.
And that has been one of themost life changing experiences
(03:52):
for me actually, to be in thatspace of, community with these
women.
I.
Founded Rise Above Borders tocreate a community because I've,
noticed that there actuallyisn't one for women who come
from migrant backgrounds, and ithas been such a joy to be in
(04:16):
that space.
Dr Nat Green (04:18):
And as you say that, Sel, I just, I love
watching you light up, and Iknow that this is your absolute
love and passion, and like yousaid, you really are on a huge
mission.
And I'd love it if you couldshare a bit of your background
and your story so it gives evenmore context to why you're doing
(04:41):
what you're doing.
Dr Selma Music (04:43):
So I guess to give you a bit of a perspective
I'll probably have to start fromthe very start.
Dr Nat Green (04:51):
I love that, which is
Dr Selma Music (04:53):
very, let's go.
Thanks.
So I am of Bosnian backgroundand if you know much about
history, Bosnia had a.
War in their nineties.
That went for about three or soyears, and because of the war
and the impact that it's had onmy family and the many losses in
(05:18):
my family we.
Sought asylum actually inSwitzerland.
So that's where we went and,again it's not only the, war and
the misplaced, internally andexternally displacement that
we've experienced, but it's alsothe many losses within our
(05:41):
family as well.
And one thing that I often don'ttalk about is because of the war
in Bosnia I've also.
It's a, little bit tricky toexplain but where I lived before
the war we lived in a tinylittle country town and it's on
the border and now belongs tothe Republic of Serbia.
And we were like one of thefirst impacted by the war.
(06:03):
And that also led to a lot oflives lost Including my dad and
five of my uncles as well.
And that's just like within myimmediate family.
And then the, wider impactthroughout.
So as a young child and oftencome back to this as a young
(06:23):
child it's hard to make sense ofall of that.
Like losing your dad and thenthe wider, family as well, but
then also the displacement andthen trying to integrate as
well.
Within the wider environment.
So when we moved, like when wesought asylum in Switzerland I
(06:46):
remember.
That I always remembered feelingless than there was that, whole
refugee treatment.
And mind you, from what Iremember, like everything was
done as well as you could withinthat space, but it's that
feeling of less than, and Ithink.
(07:08):
That's not, sometimes peopledon't by choice.
And in those sort of likecircumstances And like memory of
feeling different, feeling lessthan feeling, confused about
like my identity as well.
(07:30):
And then moving afterSwitzerland and then we actually
then moved back to Bosnia afterthe war.
But it was just, we couldn'tlive there.
It wasn't really safe for us.
At the time.
So that's how my Mum and my nowstepdad decided to seek asylum
in Australia.
(07:51):
So I came here when I was 16.
Okay.
So 16 yeah.
So I was, it was the end of year10, I remember that.
And yeah, it's been a challengesince in terms of my whole
identity, like who am I?
Where do I belong?
(08:11):
How do I make space for my, the,Bosnian parts of me and then the
Australian parts of me, but thenin between, parts of me and.
Yeah, it's, been a challenge andI guess that's where Rise Above
Borders comes in and the workthat I do clinically as well.
But in terms of Rise AboveBorders, it's I never felt like
(08:35):
I had the guidance that Ineeded, like my parents tried in
terms of they were new migrantsto Australia and they didn't
really know the system.
So it was like trying to always,trying to work out my way and
just not knowing where to ask orwhere to seek help and, and
(08:58):
always almost again, feelingless than because I just had no
idea.
Dr Nat Green (09:03):
And at an age where it's already challenging
enough at 16, a really trickytime to transition to a, change
within the same country, letalone across another whole
country, across all those miles,as well as.
All the loss and the confusion,identity loss can only imagine.
(09:29):
That must have been absolutelyhuge for you.
Dr Selma Music (09:34):
It was, And it took like when you go and you
know this but like when you gothrough something so big, it
shatters so many parts of yourworld.
Yeah.
So a lot of those yearsespecially.
Like when I like really grasp,as I was getting a little bit
older and really not just theevent itself, or the events in
(09:57):
my instance, but it's the impacton every aspect of your life
later on.
And when you when I've arrivedto Australia when I was 16 I've
arrived to a country where I hadno, no friends.
And no knowledge of how anythingworked.
I remember you gonna love thisone.
I remember when I was in year 11I had just come towards the end
(10:21):
of year 10.
And I was moved into year 11 andI didn't actually comprehend
what this VC was at the timeokay.
And then it was oh wait, if Idon't do well here.
Then I can't go to universityand I can't do this.
So there was just a lot ofpressure.
A lot,
Dr Nat Green (10:41):
yeah.
And I went
Dr Selma Music (10:42):
to like a mainstream school where didn't
have people from my backgroundeither, so I didn't really know
what to do with me either.
So it was just floated around.
And had to seek out my ownsupports around there.
Dr Nat Green (10:59):
Yeah.
So you could have easily justflown under the radar and so
easily and fallen off and justgone in a very different
direction to the one you'vechosen
Dr Selma Music (11:11):
so easily.
I don't and it's thatinvisibility.
Yeah.
Of being able to blend in and beinvisible.
And the, people around me, atleast in the sort of like the
schooling system probablywouldn't have even noticed.
Dr Nat Green (11:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that real invisibility acrossso many areas, and you would've
no doubt kept that to yourself.
Absolutely.
And not been sharing that withpeople and Oh, yeah.
Retreated within yourself.
Dr Selma Music (11:46):
Ah, yeah.
It's I often talk about thatsort of I guess like the
maturity that you had to developYeah.
To deal with the world aroundyou at that time.
And like 16 year olds, like whenI look at 16 year olds now, I'm
like, wow, yes.
I had to make some big lifedecisions at that age.
Where, and didn't have that thatteenage playfulness and joy.
(12:13):
I was always quite serious andquite like driven and quite
Yeah, mature, essentiallymature.
And
Dr Nat Green (12:22):
with that maturity, no doubt, that huge
sense of responsibility.
Dr Selma Music (12:28):
Oh, that a lot of children of migrants could
relate to that, sense ofresponsibility not only for
yourself, if you have, and Ishould have probably added to
what, to my history earlier,like the oldest daughter as
well.
Huge sense of responsibility notonly towards myself, but also
(12:52):
towards my siblings and allstepping in when mom and my dad,
like my stepdad struggled.
Their job was to try and getthose basic needs met.
Making sure that we hadsomewhere to live, making sure
that they had jobs, making surethat essentially rebuilding
their whole lives with when theyfirst arrived.
(13:15):
And that's.
Really hard.
So you step in andovercompensate for all the other
bits and show up as as theoldest,
Dr Nat Green (13:25):
yeah.
Dr Selma Music (13:25):
In the family.
A lot
Dr Nat Green (13:27):
of responsibility on your shoulders.
Dr Selma Music (13:30):
So much responsibility that sometimes
and I reflect on this, so likelater, that sometimes I've
forgotten how to be a joyful,playful fun having 16-year-old.
And there are parts of mesometimes that feel those I,
I've missed out.
(13:50):
And I think that's where riseand above borders comes in
because one of the core valueswithin that, within Rise and
Above, borders is playfulness.
Dr Nat Green (14:00):
I love that so much.
It's
Dr Selma Music (14:01):
so important.
Dr Nat Green (14:02):
Oh, absolutely.
Because it's almost like you cannow relive that the bit that you
missed out, and this is yourtime to do that and lead the way
for others who have.
Had to walk in similar shoes toyours as they transition to a
whole new country.
Dr Selma Music (14:20):
Yeah.
And a lot of daughters ofmigrants, like my story is like
a lot of daughters of migrantswould relate to this story of
having to do all of the thingsand having to step in.
So many times and, it'ssometimes we joke about it now,
(14:40):
it's oh, did you have totranslate those documents for
your parents?
Did you have to call the energycompany for your parents?
Yeah, I did that at 12.
And it's like you laugh aboutit, but in reality, if you
actually, if you'd like sit withit and deeply think about it
what did you miss out on?
Because you had to do all ofthose things.
(15:02):
And a lot of the times it wasthat visibility that joyfulness,
that playfulness and thecommunity of people that will
see you.
Dr Nat Green (15:18):
Definitely.
You finished school.
You obviously managed to getthrough that and, move forward
to uni, so you did well enoughand surprised yourself and
everyone else, no doubt.
Yeah I, did
Dr Selma Music (15:36):
exceptionally well, and of course thank you.
I did, yeah, I did well and andthat's the thing.
I remember like through thosesort of year 11 and year 12
translating from like reading mytextbooks and translating from
(15:57):
English into German.
'cause that's the language Ispoke at the time and that's how
my brain functioned and thenpushing through.
Like all of those extra layersof having to do more than
everybody else just to get touniversity at the time.
(16:18):
Yeah.
And then I ended up doing apsychology and psychophysiology,
which is like a neurosciencedegree.
And really loved the, psychologypart always really enjoyed that.
Even like in high school and,but it was hard.
(16:39):
I was the first one in my familyto go to university.
Wow.
Dr Nat Green (16:42):
So there's
Dr Selma Music (16:43):
the burden of that.
Dr Nat Green (16:44):
Yeah.
And trying
Dr Selma Music (16:45):
to navigate all of that within a system that was
not familiar.
That really, I.
If you didn't know what to askfor or where to look like the
help wasn't offered either.
So that was really tricky andoftentimes I didn't even know
what was there.
So I often now mentor a lot ofI.
(17:08):
Sort of first generationmigrants and their children in
terms of like how to ask forhelp and how to, where to look
for help and things like that.
Like there was always a part ofme that was interested in
trauma.
So during those like earlyyears, I, at uni I always read
(17:29):
more about the experience oftrauma.
'cause I, guess like I wastrying to make sense of like my
own experiences and the impact.
That the war and thedisplacement and the refugee
camps and so on had on us.
And then that's how I moved intomy masters and my PhD.
As well.
(17:49):
That's goodness's me.
Dr Nat Green (17:52):
I just happened to get through.
Oh, I may as well do a PhD ontop of that.
Absolutely.
Because I haven't
Dr Selma Music (17:57):
done enough yet.
I haven't done enough.
But this is the interestingthing actually.
So my PhD was in the psychologylike under that umbrella, but it
had a very strong neuroscienceflavor and I was looking at how
trauma impacted resettledrefugees from like a,
(18:22):
neuroimaging perspective.
And we use all sorts of likereally cool equipment that I was
so excited to use.
I bet.
But one of the things that I'verealized while I was doing my
PhD and I was in placement andthen started working in the
field was that I didn't reallywanna be in that system anymore.
(18:46):
And that was really, I thinkthat was like one of those huge.
Wake up calls for me.
Dr Nat Green (18:52):
Yeah.
Dr Selma Music (18:53):
And that was that first time where I had to
put the brakes on and redefinewhat, growth and success and the
lot what kind of life I wantedto lead.
So rather than fall into thetrap of working hard to please.
(19:14):
X, Y, and Z and to get all thesecertificates and diplomas and
qualifications and titles, itdidn't really matter after I was
getting it all, I was like, thisdoesn't actually, there's
nothing in, this.
That's attracting me to thelife.
(19:34):
Interesting.
Dr Nat Green (19:35):
So really you were looking because, and you said
earlier that you felt less thanin, so you were looking for this
external validation, and thenthis sounds like this was your
moment, this first time that youactually thought what about me.
Yeah.
How do I want my life to berather than other people's?
(20:00):
External validation andexpectations.
Yeah.
That's a huge moment for you bythe sound of it.
Dr Selma Music (20:06):
It was a huge moment, Nat.
I guess like the way I reflecton this is there was always a
part of me that was like justtrying to get to the same level
as everybody else.
Yeah.
That was it.
I just wanted to be at the samelevel as everybody else.
And then like with the PhD it's1% of the population, so they're
(20:27):
already painting it in aparticular way.
And I was that doesn't actuallyit didn't mean anything to me.
Yeah.
And if anything, it built quitea lot of resentment actually.
Okay.
Because I felt, it took awayfrom the things that actually
mattered to me, which is myfamily, my relationships, my
(20:48):
relationship with my son.
And it took me a while torecalibrate after that.
Yeah.
And it, was it was a, key momentin time for me where I was I
need to redefine this.
Dr Nat Green (21:05):
I need
Dr Selma Music (21:05):
to redefine what growth or post-traumatic growth
for me looks like.
Yeah.
And not fall into the trap ofwhat other people think I should
be doing.
And.
It was really tricky because Ihad set myself up for an
academic path, which now I waschoosing not to do and what will
(21:26):
everybody else say about this?
Dr Nat Green (21:29):
Yeah of
Dr Selma Music (21:29):
course.
And then I moved into privatepractice and after that I but
even that wasn't quite like theright fit.
I was, it there was always apart of me that.
Was craving that playfulness,that joyfulness energy, that
(21:49):
connection community, and in theclinical setting, you can't
really have that, right?
Yeah.
It's that
Dr Nat Green (21:56):
missing part, isn't it?
When you are seen as theprofessional and you've gotta
put this face and this mask onand show up in a certain way
because the board and societysay that's how it has to be.
This playful part is missing inthat clinical space.
So again, absolutely.
(22:18):
That bit that you'd alreadymissed out on for so much of
your life, you were getting moreand more in tune with the fact
that you needed that.
Dr Selma Music (22:27):
Absolutely.
I think it's like a key part.
Yeah.
Key part.
And when I see that part of menow, sometimes I don't it almost
feels like the most, the real,the purest me.
And I welcome it with so muchjoy.
Dr Nat Green (22:50):
Oh, that's beautiful.
I just obviously I've known youa little while now and, when I
think of Sel, I think someonewho has fun and is hilarious.
So that's all I've known.
And to hear you say that thiswasn't part of you.
(23:10):
It's heartbreaking, but it's sobeautiful at the same time
because I think wow, you havebrought that in and embraced her
so beautifully that yeah, it'snatural now.
But that's not how it was allyour life really.
Dr Selma Music (23:25):
No, that was so far so far from my life.
If you had told 16-year-old me.
Oh, there's no way.
I would've been like, no way.
Because other people would'vedescribed me as the most
serious, the most mature, themost, yeah.
(23:51):
Not, completely differentenergy.
And I just didn't, that didn'talign with how I wanted to live
my life, like my own life, butalso how I wanted to be in the
world.
That is not how I wanted to bein the world.
And I think and the other partwithin that is I wanted, to, do
(24:13):
all of this without betraying myvalues.
I think that's the other key bitor without not showing up with
my Bosnian parts as well as likemy Australian Swiss world parts
(24:33):
and all of the bits that I'vetaken with me along the way.
And I think that's the mostimportant bit for me.
To show up without betraying myvalues.
Dr Nat Green (24:45):
Yes.
So obviously this experiencethat you've been through has
really changed your perspectiveon life, on relationships and
values.
How have you managed to embracethat in the way that you have
now?
Dr Selma Music (25:05):
I love that question.
Thanks.
I it has several parts to it.
So I, again, I have to jump backto the war.
One of the things during the oneof I was persecuted because of
who I was essentially.
That's what that was like, who Iwas as a person because of my
name, because of myspirituality, because of X, Y,
(25:27):
and Z.
And then you are Taught to hide.
Yeah.
'cause it's a it's safe.
You don't wanna show the worldwho you are because essentially
a, lot of people within myfamily died because of who they
were.
So visibility is unsafe.
(25:48):
That's essentially what I havelearned.
Visibility is unsafe.
So hide and fade into thebackground.
Dr Nat Green (25:57):
Yeah.
Dr Selma Music (25:59):
But then when you try to be more authentic to
who you are, when you try toshow up and lead visibly how,
those two things are reallycontrast, right?
And I think one of the thingsthat we need to remember, and
this is that kind of like traumainformed way of, being and
(26:20):
leading to expect.
Yourself to go from one extremeto the other is unrealistic and
unreasonable, right?
Dr Nat Green (26:31):
Yeah,
Dr Selma Music (26:31):
definitely.
And it's unsafe, essentially.
So what I did was I climbedlittle took little steps along
the way.
And if you had told me that Iwas going to even share parts of
my story with you like 10 yearsago, I wouldn't have believed
you Nat.
Dr Nat Green (26:50):
No.
Dr Selma Music (26:51):
There's no way I would've even spoken about any
of this 10 years ago.
No.
Would've felt too unsafe.
Too unsafe, too uncomfortable,too too visible.
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (27:03):
Yeah.
Dr Selma Music (27:04):
But now I know that those are the things, all
of these lived experiences arethe things that make me who I
am.
And make me lead in the way thatI want to lead and make, and are
the things that contribute to meshowing up in the world.
The way I want to show up.
Dr Nat Green (27:23):
Oh, I love that.
Honestly, I love that so much.
Look at you and how far you havecome.
It's, oh, it gives me so muchjoy to just hear your story, but
know how far away from thatyoung, that little girl and then
(27:43):
that 16-year-old girl you arenow.
But I know it's come at hugecost and with a lot of
tumultuous times along the way.
Dr Selma Music (27:55):
Yeah.
And the other thing as well,Nat, which is really interesting
kinda popped into my head justnow, is part of my Rise Above
Borders is the, program is, orone of the programs is.
dismantling imposter syndrome.
which kind of feeds into this.
(28:18):
Yeah.
So one of the things is to leadsafely and within to reclaim
that voice to lead visibly andwithout apology, right?
But you always have to come backto the part of where did this
come from?
Dr Nat Green (28:36):
Why
Dr Selma Music (28:37):
was it there?
How did it shield you fromeverything that you've
experienced along the way?
If I had been visible, then thatwould've been unsafe.
Dr Nat Green (28:48):
Oh, absolutely.
If I had
Dr Selma Music (28:49):
been visible at different times in my life that
would've been unsafe.
So there is a part of me that'salways grateful to that.
Dr Nat Green (28:57):
Yes.
Dr Selma Music (28:58):
You know that I'll call it my little imposter
syndrome.
I, actually love that part of me'cause that part is what kept me
safe.
But I am here now.
And all I need to I always talkto it, I'm like, it's okay.
Oh, that's beautiful.
Yeah.
Because you have a lot to thankher for.
Dr Nat Green (29:19):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Because it, yeah.
And I love that you areembracing all the parts.
Like you talk a lot about thedifferent parts of you, but
you've really worked beautifullyto blend them together to be a
whole part now,
Dr Selma Music (29:36):
and that's what it feels like.
Dr Nat Green (29:38):
Yeah,
Dr Selma Music (29:39):
that's what it feels like.
More, whole than I've ever been.
Dr Nat Green (29:43):
And.
Now seems like the perfect timeto talk more about your Rise
Above Borders and reallyshowcase the amazing vision that
you have for these beautifulmigrant women that you are going
to lead.
So tell us about that.
Dr Selma Music (30:04):
I get so excited.
I can't even sit in my seatexcited.
I love so much.
I literally, I'm like, Ooh let'sdo that.
So the mission of Rise AboveBorders is to.
Inspire and empower ambitiousimpact driven soul-led daughters
of migrants and migrant womenleaders who are essentially done
(30:27):
playing small.
And we do this by teaching thepractical tools and strategies
to dismantle imposter syndromeand reclaim your voice.
Lead visibly, leadunapologetically.
But without burning out orbetraying the person's values.
(30:48):
And I think that's the key part.
And the, program is really forbasically first generation
people like me, essentially,right?
Yeah.
First generation migrant women,refugee, backgrounds, adult
children of migrants, eldestdaughters, and any sort of if
(31:11):
you find yourself in that space,that's, this is what Rise Above
Borders is and,.
It's for people who have similarto me.
We've accomplished all of thesethings, but they are still
invisible.
So we want them to move forward,create the impact that they want
(31:33):
to create.
And I think that's the otherthing, create the impact.
And I often talk about what isthe cost of being invisible?
Yeah.
Who what is the world missingout on?
Because you didn't have the,community and the strength and
the strategies and the tools tomove forward to rise.
(31:56):
So I get so excited because I,just I just, I get, to be in
community with, women who areprofessionals, high achievers
leaders business owners, and tounderstand why things have
happened in that trauma informedsafe way and to, design a
(32:21):
blueprint forward, but in a safeway.
That's what Rise Above Bordersreally is.
Dr Nat Green (32:29):
Oh, honestly, it's.
Absolutely brilliant.
And I watch you light up.
I know that I get to watch it onvideo and everyone will be
listening to it, but we'lldefinitely put this one on
YouTube and the video so peoplecan see how much you light up.
And I just think what a gift youare to this world and to be able
(32:54):
to share that.
With so many other beautifulmigrant women who are also so
capable, but feeling invisibleor not safe to be visible, how
much more we can help once youget this out in the world and
(33:15):
really ramp things up even more.
I just think look how far you'vecome and your brilliance has
been allowed to shine andimagine what.
It's gonna do when so manyothers shine as well.
Dr Selma Music (33:29):
I think the the impact that they will make and
the difference that they willleave in the world.
Oh,
Dr Nat Green (33:40):
yes.
Dr Selma Music (33:41):
I'm getting goosebumps.
Oh, no.
Speaking about it, right?
So I'm here for it.
I am so here for
Dr Nat Green (33:50):
it.
Absolutely.
Oh, honestly, it's so excitingand I know you're getting closer
and really getting it ready tolaunch and get out in the world
fully, no longer keeping itinvisible.
Absolutely.
excellent So if you could shareone thing.
(34:13):
With our listeners that wouldhelp them as they navigate their
post-trauma or work throughovercoming their adversity and
move into post-traumatic growth,what would that be?
Dr Selma Music (34:26):
Find your community.
I think that's, the key.
Find the people that willunderstand where you're coming
from, will not gaslight, you
Dr Nat Green (34:40):
will
Dr Selma Music (34:40):
not dismiss you.
Find the people that willunderstand where you've come
from, what you have experienced,and that will cheer you on and
have your back.
I think that's, the key.
(35:01):
Because we are people who'veexperienced trauma are often
really good at doing things ontheir own.
Like that hyper independence,like it's usually a very strong
part to us.
Dr Nat Green (35:14):
Yeah.
Funny that
Dr Selma Music (35:15):
isn't it.
But even though that has servedus the growth or to grow means
to find people to be incommunity with.
Dr Nat Green (35:29):
Yes.
Oh, that, I think that's, thebig, that's key.
I completely agree.
And, you touched on that beingdismissed, being gaslit, and
that's such a big part of it,isn't it?
That people and that's why I'vecalled this growing tall poppies
because people.
(35:50):
Really like to cut down the tallpoppies, the ones that are game
to stand out.
And a lot of us dull our lightor take that shine off ourselves
to keep ourselves invisible andsafe.
But what we know is important isyou can't do it on your own,
(36:11):
even though you've done reallywell on your own for a long
time.
Dr Selma Music (36:14):
Yep.
Dr Nat Green (36:15):
It's about having community who will cheer you on
and champion you and show youthat it can be safe to shine
your light in the world and holdyou up rather than cut you down.
So what a beautiful thing foryou to share and tell me, do you
(36:37):
think there's any specificpersonal attributes or qualities
that are also key?
To helping someone move fromtrauma into post-traumatic
growth.
Dr Selma Music (36:50):
Openness to, and I'm speaking from my own
personal experience here, Ithink openness to embrace things
that are different, maybe notthe way.
That you have been taught allthe templates that you have had
all your life, and there'snothing wrong with those
templates.
(37:10):
They got you to where you are.
But being able to embrace doingthings differently, embracing
anything that they can help.
Alleviate some of the, pain thatwe've experienced.
(37:31):
So what I mean by that isthere's no straight path to
healing, and we all know that.
And it might not look like thetextbook.
Modalities that people suggest.
So I always say to everyone thatI work with the way you heal it
(37:59):
it's gonna be different foreveryone.
And we want to embrace thechange and we want to look at it
from a holistic point of view.
Dr Nat Green (38:07):
Yeah.
Dr Selma Music (38:09):
That's the thing.
Dr Nat Green (38:11):
Definitely.
And I think that's a key thingfrom I know you and I have
talked about this, that it's soimportant that we're holistic
and as you've said it's, veryfitting that you've talked about
different parts.
So one part of you would wantthis and one part would want
this, and one part would wantthat.
And we are all as human beingsthe same.
(38:32):
In that.
There's parts of us that needcertain things and parts that
don't need those things.
So we have to be holistic.
And treat the person as a wholehuman being.
Absolutely.
Not just what people think weshould be or what we think we
should
Dr Selma Music (38:50):
be.
With also taking into accountall the environmental and
systematic.
Dr Nat Green (38:59):
Yes.
Dr Selma Music (39:00):
Factors that impact someone's mental health
and not assume that it's the,person only.
There are so many factors oradditional factors that can
sometimes have more detrimentalimpacts on the person,
definitely than the eventitself.
So I think it's like open tochange, open to, to changing
(39:23):
your templates, but also thewider sort of environment needs
to be considered and all thoseother factors as well.
Dr Nat Green (39:34):
Yeah, definitely.
Just imagine if all of thoseparts of you, all the old
environmental things and all theold experiences had never been
taken into account.
The same as what you wanna dofor all these migrant women that
you are going to work with thatif you can't see all of them,
(39:57):
absolutely.
You can't help them.
Dr Selma Music (39:58):
No, this absolutely right.
So if you, for example have aleadership program for that,
where you don't take intoaccount a trauma background, a
migrant background, a visibilityissues, and safety issues around
that, and you push people into,whatever it is that you're
(40:22):
pushing them into that is sounsafe and and it's not taking
into account the whole person.
You need to design theseprograms in a way, in a holistic
way with all of those factors inmind.
Dr Nat Green (40:39):
Most definitely.
Yeah.
So is there anything else you'dlike to share with us your
wisdom or lived experiences havetaught you that you think would
be really helpful?
Dr Selma Music (40:56):
I think the, thing that had the most, and
I've said this before, but Ifeel like it needs to be
emphasized.
The thing that had the mostimpact on me as a human, that
has led to the greatest, like Idid.
Lots of therapy, lots ofcoaching.
Yeah.
Lots of that.
But I think all in the end, Ithink that those are all
(41:18):
important.
Yeah.
But it is finding your peoplethat has been.
Transformational.
Yeah.
Finding your people.
Like you said earlier, that ispeople that will hold you up.
That has been the greatest giftto me.
(41:42):
And Nat you are one of them.
Dr Nat Green (41:44):
Sel thank you and you are one of mine.
Absolutely.
Finding your people andcommunity are key takeaways from
this conversation.
And you've so generously andopenly been so vulnerable and
shared your experience.
One thing that I often like tostart to wrap things up with is,
(42:06):
what do you think?
We've already touched on this alittle bit.
Youngest self would think ofwhat you've done and where you
are now.
Dr Selma Music (42:15):
As you ask that question.
I notice like goosebumps allover love it.
I think she would be so proud,like my youngest self, when
someone says young and stuff,I've always imagine they're
5-year-old.
Yeah.
And there's no way that there's,a part of her that doesn't
(42:37):
believe this to be the realityof my life, but she would be so
proud that I am showing theworld who I am, but also shining
the light.
(42:58):
On, the experiences that I'vehad and that I am talking about
them openly and that that I'mcreating a blueprint for others
to follow and that is, andmaking it easier and more.
(43:22):
Joyful.
Dr Nat Green (43:23):
Yes.
I love it as your whole facelights up and as you were
talking about that, I gotgoosebumps and I just thought,
oh my goodness.
She would be so proud.
Yeah.
And yes, you're shining a light,but I personally think you are
being the lighthouse.
Oh, you are beaming that out toother people so that you can be
(43:49):
that safe place in otherpeople's storm and teach them
how to be safe and to shinetheir lights in the world.
I honestly, I'm just so blessedto know you and so grateful, so
Sel As we move to wrapping theconversation up, where can
(44:09):
people find you and connect you?
And let me just preface thiswith Selma is the social media
queen, and Selma teaches all ofus about how we should be doing
our messaging when some of usaren't doing it so well.
So Selma is hilarious to watchon her Instagram.
(44:32):
Videos and I guarantee youshould all check in and find out
more about Sel
Dr Selma Music (44:38):
I love it.
Thank you.
How to show up safely andvisibly.
I think that's, the key, thing.
The best way to get in touchwith me is to follow me online
on Instagram, which is my handleis Rise Above Borders.
So just.
Find me there and connect.
(44:59):
Send me a dm.
I'd love to hear from you.
Dr Nat Green (45:03):
Honestly it's, been such a joy and you honestly
bring so much joy into my life,other people's lives, and it's
honestly such a pleasure to havehad you on here.
Thank you so much.
Sel
Dr Selma Music (45:18):
thank you, Nat.
It's been such a joy.
Dr Nat Green (45:21):
Bye for now.
Thank you for joining me in thisepisode of Growing Tall Poppies.
It is my deepest hope thattoday's episode may have
inspired and empowered you tostep fully into your
post-traumatic growth, so thatyou can have absolute clarity
(45:45):
around who you are, what mattersthe most to you, and to assist
you to release your negativeemotions.
And regulate your nervous systemso you can fully thrive.
New episodes are published everyTuesday, and I hope you'll
continue to join us as weexplore both the strategies and
(46:06):
the personal qualities requiredto fully live a life of
post-traumatic growth and tothrive.
So if it feels aligned to youand really resonates, then I
invite you to hit subscribe andit would mean the world to us.
If you could share this episodewith others who you feel may
benefit too, you may also findme on Instagram at Growing Tall
(46:31):
Poppies and Facebook, Dr.
Natalie Green.
Remember, every moment is anopportunity to look for the
lessons and to learn andincrease your ability to live
the life you desire and deserve.
So for now, stay connected.
Stay inspired.
(46:52):
Stand tall like the tall poppyyou are, and keep shining your
light brightly in the world.
Bye for.
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