March 16, 2023 • 50 mins
I could never wrap my head around the concept of meditation. You won’t see me sit back while someone preaches how the universe will provide (I don’t buy that). But in this episode, Lori Saitz unflinchingly challenged my skepticism and shed new light on what meditation really is about — beyond the hummings and poses.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lori Saitz (00:00):
And so when we talk about meditation, what you and I have always bumped heads on is that that
misconception around what meditation is, that it meanssitting quietly on a mat with cross legs and for an hour
at a time, emptying your head of all thoughts, right?
, right?
And that could be a form of meditation,but a lot of people can't get there.
So that's what I talk a lot about is thatthose myths and misconceptions around what
(00:23):
meditation really is, and you're not alone.
Not being able to sit still and clear the thoughts.
Donnie Boivin (00:43):
Dude, for years I.
Grew up on this self-help world where I think in my head, Ireally thought that the, that a book or a tape or a conference
or seminar, thinking happy thoughts, all those type of things,were going to get me to some supposed level of success, man.
(01:05):
And I tell you, I bought into this general.
Thought process of, you know, I could tell myself I'mawesome, amazing, you know, the Stewart Smiley style of
thi side of things and I would almost be able to programmyself, uh, to some magical freaking world of success.
(01:26):
And it's really took me to.
Screwing up and almost losing everything.
I had to understand that there's no amount of thinking orhaving happy thoughts is going to get me where I need to go.
You've actually gotta get in the game, get punched in thegame face, screw it all up, learn from your screw ups and
(01:50):
keep moving forward and that's where you find success.
Kevin Snow (01:55):
Yeah, it's, you know, You, you see so much stuff on, on Facebook and the internet of, of people who
are promoting their, you know, be like me, do these thingsand it's uh, and it's never that like tactical things.
to actually help you improve.
(02:15):
And that's always been my issue.
When I want to figure out how to get somewhere inmy mind, I go, all right, there's gotta be steps.
There's gotta be actions I gotta take, things I can do.
Uh, and this whole concept of not doingthings, uh, and, and we've been kind of.
Picking on the, the, those people a lot latelywith the whole concept of, you know, just, just
(02:37):
put it out there and it'll, it'll come back to you.
The universe, the universe
Donnie Boivin (02:41):
will provide, the
Kevin Snow (02:42):
universe will provide type thing.
It never made sense or was actuallysomething that I was like, all right.
Yeah, let's do this.
So I, but lemme ask
Donnie Boivin (02:51):
a question.
Yep.
Go.
Because, because, uh, this just popped in my head and,and, uh, you can answer this better than I can too.
What's the difference between saying theuniverse will be provide versus the church world
saying, God will take care of me, type thing.
You know, to me, in my head, it's the same, same,you know, they're, they're both saying the same
(03:13):
thing, just using a different deity, if you will.
Kevin Snow (03:17):
So, I, uh, so there are factions within the church that are like, you know, don't go to doctors.
The God will take care of you.
And it's all, you know, literally everything's left in his hands.
And that, that's not how I was everbrought up to believe, uh, you know.
, I was brought up to believe that God gave doctorsreally good brains and gave them the ability to go
(03:40):
learn how to do that, and allowing them to do theirthing was, you know, God gave you this resource.
Go use it.
So you, there was still that expectation that you had totake some sort of action and personal responsibility to take
advantage of the blessings that God bestowed in your world.
It wasn't just a, oh, just sit thereand God will magically heal you.
(04:04):
So
Donnie Boivin (04:05):
that, I don't know why hearing it on the universe side of things, it doesn't bother me, but every time
I hear about the church side of things, my skin crawls, right.
The whole concept of that justfucking eats me from the inside out.
But, uh, uh, but that makes sense though.
I mean, cuz it's still coming from a place of, of.
You've gotta show up and do the things.
(04:26):
Yeah.
Kevin Snow (04:27):
It's like, it, it'd be like jumping out of a airplane without a parachute and saying, well, God will protect me.
Dumb ass.
God gave you a parachute.
Donnie Boivin (04:37):
Or the guy in the or, or the guy in the, in the, the factory that did the sewing and whatnot gave you parachute.
But, but, you know, whatever, whatever.
, yeah.
Kevin Snow (04:46):
He helped, he gave, made someone smart so they were able to in, to invent a parachute
and he, they put it on that plane for you to use.
Donnie Boivin (04:54):
So a bunch of molecules came together.
As they came together, they learned to skew that.
So now,
Kevin Snow (05:00):
so, so now you are actually promoting that this, the universe provides
Donnie Boivin (05:04):
No, no.
I'm, I'm, I'm a . Cause
Kevin Snow (05:07):
that's just what you literally said.
You know, the bunch of molecules just came together.
No, no.
I'm, I'm
Donnie Boivin (05:12):
saying science provides in that matter.
Uh uh, so
Kevin Snow (05:15):
science, just the whole concept of understanding God's creation.
Donnie Boivin (05:19):
No, that's a religious argument.
Uh uh.
I don't believe in a quote unquote, God, I'm not an atheistcause I say there's something there, but I do, do, I, I, I.
Let me change that.
I hope there's something there, because that's alot better to think about than it's just straight.
Stuff that we've evolved into.
(05:41):
It's more fun for me to think, uh, the other direction.
Do I think anybody walked this damn earth and did anything?
Hell no.
Um, I don't believe in that at all.
But, um, the, the, even if there was some magicianthat walked this earth that could perform skills
(06:02):
and, and magic and everything else, I'd wanna meet.
Because if they got fucking magic skills, and, and look,let's be honest, if you can turn water into wine, it's
gotta be just one little tweak to turn it into rum.
I'm fucking in, you know?
So, so I get it.
But I, I think religion works, the universal stuff works.
(06:27):
I think all of that stuff works because, To a lot ofpeople, a shortcut to wherever they're trying to get.
right?
Whether you're trying to get to heaven, maybeyou're trying to get to success, maybe you're
trying to get to spiritual enlightenment.
Maybe you're trying to get to some sort of kumbaya state of mind.
(06:49):
The ideology hunt behind it all is you can pray, youcan think happy, thought you can do whatever, and
miraculously you will find what you're looking for.
Um, and I.
. It's not even the extremes.
I think it's a majority of the people that go down thosepaths are looking for that easy button to find some sort of
(07:11):
success when, and that's why there's only 10 to 20% of peoplethat actually find success in all these endeavors is because
they, they the people that realize that there is some truth.
To all of this knowledge and the likes, and even as muchas I bash on it, Kevin bashes on it, Kevin, Kevin hates
(07:32):
the universal WOOWOO stuff 10 times worse than I do.
Um, Kevin hates it as much as I hate the religious stuff, right?
So, so the but the, the, the ideas.
is everything is based in some sort of foundationaltruth or you can manipulate it enough to
get back to some sort of truth, if you will.
(07:54):
And I, I think for me, um, and I'll speakspecifically for myself, I wanted the easy button.
I wanted to be able to go, I'm rich, and all of a suddenI'm rich and turns out rich is only my dad's name.
Um, but , uh, the, the.
(08:16):
Overarching thing is I think people want tobe able to journal their way to success, think
happy thoughts to success, pray to success.
They want it to show up withoutactually having to do the real work.
Kevin Snow (08:32):
Yeah.
And, and maybe it's for me, having grown up onthe farm, you know, we had to do the work and.
and you, you had to go out and plant the crops.
You had to go take care of the animals.
You know, you couldn't just assumethat it was all going to happen.
So even though a very religious family, there was stillthat concept of, you know, God gave you these resources.
(08:55):
You still need to go figure out how to make them.
Grow and make them do things.
It, you know, it wasn't just, uh, oh, God'sgonna make the crops grow for you this year.
No, you still gotta go plan 'em, youstill gotta go, go, uh, go weed them.
You gotta, you know, do the, the disking and,and all the different things to make them grow.
So, uh, and so maybe it's, we're just more practical andpragmatic about how we look at that universal concept.
(09:23):
because you totally, if you were not ever had never been in areligious world, you could totally look at that whole concept
of, you know, pray to God for what your needs and he'll provide.
It was like, oh God, I, I, I need a million dollars.
You know, poof.
Why, why is there not a million dollars in my bank account?
Uh, when that's really not the concept, at leastin how I was raised in the churches I went to.
Donnie Boivin (09:46):
So, yeah.
Yep.
And you know, I'll also say that I was.
I wasn't brought up in a, in a church going family, if you will.
We did the church thing on several times.
Um, uh, even once I went out and found religion on my ownand, um, you know, practiced and learned a lot of things,
(10:10):
I think that that's what set me, not, not not the churchthing, but the idea of there could be a better life.
Sent me searching for things that I could do to get better.
And I think instead of actively looking for improving skillsof some sort, I spent the entire time trying to game the system
(10:40):
because gaming the system was how I got ahead and a lot ofthings from school, the Marine Corps, blah, blah, blah, and.
The truth of the matter is, is there'sno gaming the system in life, right?
If you want to get to some sort of level of success, you'vegotta do the things that you might deem as hard, might deem
(11:05):
tough, and go do them on a consistent, regular basis sothat you can put yourself in a position to screw things up.
and be able to learn.
So as much as we bash on all of this, there is some,some foundational truths to this entire idea of, of.
(11:27):
even to the point of you, you're better off thinkingin a more positive nature than a negative nature.
You're better off, you know, staying out of the mindset, uh,and staying in a more happy, you know, ness, style of thinking.
And there's, you know, things like journaling, meditationsand all of that, they're all rooted in some good stuff.
(11:53):
You know, for me, meditation has always beensomething that's been extremely hard for me.
And so when we talk about you gotta do the hard things, man,I can't tell you how many successful people put out content.
And they talk about, they meditate, and itpisses me off because I can't just sit there
and go, Hmm, and fucking meditate, , you know?
(12:14):
It just doesn't work for me.
. And so that's why in this week's episode, I'm fascinatedto sit down with, uh, Lori sights over at Zen Rabbits.
We're gonna talk about all things meditate, and y'all strapit in because me and Lori go straight at it to the point of
Kevin grabs his Twizzlers and goes, Ooh, this is gonna be good.
So y'all enjoy this episode,
(12:36):
. Kevin Snow: Grab your popcorn now.
All right, so this is gonna be another fun one.
I love giving people nicknames and I'mfixing to introduce you guys to Rabbit.
Her company name is Zen Rabbit.
So I've called her Rabbit for the longest time,uh, and she's just one of my favorite people.
Um, and, and she's taught me some really cool lifelessons about something that I absolutely fucking
(12:58):
hated and could not wrap my damn head around.
Though she's an expert on meditation,she's an expert on a lot of things of.
How she looks at life and, and just always fun to hang out with.
So, bringing on Miss Lori Seitz.
Um, Lori, tell me really quick, what is meditation?
(13:19):
Why the fuck should we do it and how do you getan asshole like me to actually give it a go?
Uh, when I despise the entire thought process around it?
? Yeah.
Well,
Lori Saitz (13:29):
my , yes.
And I know that, uh, my definitionof meditation, the question is,
Kevin Snow (13:36):
That question in itself could be like three different episodes.
, Lori Saitz: absolutely.
My definition of meditation is getting quiet enough,getting, allowing yourself to get into a space where
you are quiet enough to hear the, your own inner voice.
That voice that tells you whethersomething's right or wrong for you.
And it's.
That the only voice, the voice that only you can hear.
(14:00):
And a lot, some people call it intuition.
It could be if you believe in God or the universe,it could be that higher source speaking to you.
But that's to me, meditation is allowingyourself to get into that space to hear that.
And when you do that, that's when you know what is the rightdecision or what are the right choices for you instead of
(14:21):
listening to what everybody else outside of you is telling you.
Donnie Boivin (14:25):
So, There was a day you and I were on a Zoom and I was talking about my fucking morning walks.
Mm-hmm.
, and you were talking about meditation and I could feel my owneyes rolling in the back of my head as you were talking about it.
Right.
Um, and I'm like, this fucking meditation stuff, man.
Because I just, the idea of trying to sit for fiveminutes and get quiet just fucking drives me bonkers.
(14:48):
Right.
Call it adhd.
Yeah.
Call it just high energy, whatever the fuck you want to call it.
Just the, the entire thought process.
So for, for anybody who doesn't know, every morning onmy farm, I go walk 45 minutes and listen to a podcast.
And I listen to a podcast cause I gotta bedistracted to think, um, it's just the way I'm wired.
And Lori and I were kind of getting into almost a heatedconversation over this stuff and she finally popped
(15:11):
off and said, Donnie, do you realize that when you zoneout on those fucking walks, you're actually meditating?
And I paused and I was like, son of a bitch.
I've been doing something that I didn'tthink I could do for a very long time.
So one, thank you for that.
But you're welcome.
Two, explain that for me.
Lori Saitz (15:31):
Yeah.
So when you come back from those walks, that's when you write.
Yep.
That's when you take all of those thoughts thathave been rolling around in your head while you're
walking, forming, and put 'em down on paper, andthat writing process is also part of a meditative.
you're in a meditative state Essentially when you'redoing that, you're reaching this alpha brainwave
(15:53):
level and it's a very creative place to what's wait to
Donnie Boivin (15:58):
be?
What's alpha brainwave level?
What the hell is that?
So,
Lori Saitz (16:00):
okay, so the brain operates on different, um, frequencies and alpha is typically
when you, it's that that state between awaken.
Like right before you fall asleep, when you're in meditation,you're typically in alpha, beta is what we are in right now.
You're fully conscious.
And then
Donnie Boivin (16:18):
there's so, so that's the same state you get in like when you're driving down the road and you
get to a destination, but you don't remember the drive
Lori Saitz (16:24):
that Yeah, you could be dipping into that level.
And then there's a couple of a theta and deltamuch deeper when you're asleep or unconscious.
Um, and then there's even a gamma level now too that,anyway, um, is that the one Turns an incredible.
. Donnie Boivin: Yes.
Like Like a Garay.
No,
. Lori Saitz: Yeah, exactly.
. Yeah.
But, but Alpha's, when you're in that creative, creative state,you're meditative, you're you, all those great ideas come to you.
(16:50):
A lot of people who are runners, that's kind of maybewhere they are when they're out running, not necessarily
runners high, but that place where you're just in the.
Donnie Boivin (17:00):
Love it.
Lori Saitz (17:01):
Love it.
Yeah.
And so when we talk about meditation, what you and I have alwaysbumped heads on is that that misconception around what meditation
is, that it means sitting quietly on a mat with cross legs andfor an hour at a time, emptying your head of all thoughts, right?
Right.
And that could be a form of meditation,but a lot of people can't get there.
So that's what I talk a lot about is thatthose myths and misconceptions around what
(17:24):
meditation really is, and you're not alone in.
Not being able to sit still and clear the thoughts.
And so this is why I love telling people, if you cango out and walk in nature, that could be meditative.
Typically, I tell people to not take their electronics,but I understand that you like, that's how your
(17:44):
mind gets quiet is by listening to something.
Yeah.
So whatever it is that gets you into thatstate, that could be considered meditative.
. Donnie Boivin: So why does somebody need to get to that state?
What's the point?
You know, I Right
now especially,
Donnie Boivin (18:03):
go ahead.
Go ahead.
No, you're good.
You're good.
You're good.
Lori Saitz (18:05):
You already, right now, especially, we are so overwhelmed with messages from outside of
ourselves, the social media, traditional media, family,friends, uh, well-meaning colleagues, even well-meaning
coaches, like what it, they can give you advice.
But that doesn't always mean that it's the right thing for you.
And getting into this meditative state on aconsistent basis allows you, like I said, to tap
(18:31):
into that inner voice and hear what the answers are.
Now, this is why a lot of people don't like getting intoit, because they don't wanna hear, like, they don't wanna
Donnie Boivin (18:42):
admit what they're hearing.
I don't wanna hear the freaking constructionwork going on behind you as well.
Yes, . Yes,
Lori Saitz (18:46):
exactly.
Yeah.
Um, They, because it doesn't sound necessarily logicalor maybe it's uncomfortable that voice is telling them
to, you know, leave their full-time job and start abusiness or whatever, or, or, you know, go bigger.
Like you need to do more on social, you needto run videos, whatever it is, that's scary.
(19:09):
So they don't wanna hear it, so they avoid it.
But also what meditation does is it helps you, uh, get clear on.
Just, it clears the channel sothat you can make better decisions.
This is where it gets really important for,especially for entrepreneurs and business
(19:31):
owners, is it helps you be more creative.
It helps you be a better leader.
It helps you make better decisions to comefrom a place of responding instead of reacting.
Donnie Boivin (19:44):
Kevin, I'm curious, have you ever tried meditating?
Kevin Snow (19:47):
I think my meditation is kind of the same as yours.
I will do that a lot when I'm doing my long drives whereI will kind of, uh, kind of zone out and just go down,
you know, wherever the rabbit hole of thought takes me.
Uh, and without trying to really think about stuff, uh, a, a ton.
(20:10):
So I, I, I've never.
You know, it's never been something in my schedule.
It's like, ooh, it's time for meditation.
Uh, but it's, you know, there are, I dunno why
Donnie Boivin (20:21):
that makes me giggle, but that entire idea, Ooh, it's time for meditation.
Time.
I,
Kevin Snow (20:24):
meditation and, and as an athlete, before, Before I compete, I try to always get somewhere and there's
always, there would be headphones and music so I coulddrown out all the cheering and all the crowd noise and
everything coming off the mats where I tried to just likeliterally just stop thinking about the upcoming match.
(20:45):
So there was that piece as well where, because Iwould overthink, and that was something I learned
when I got to college is I would overthink my matchand I would try and map out what was going to happen.
Uh, and do you know, here I'm gonna do this, andthen we're gonna shoot a double, and then it'll be
all that stuff and it would just really screw me up.
So I got to the point from talking to other wrestlers,like, yeah, I, you, you need to stop thinking about it.
(21:09):
You need to literally just.
go do.
So I'd have that in my warmup session where I would justliterally stop and I'd usually sitting under the bleachers,
I'd have been warmed up, so I already got the sweat going.
The, the music's on loud and it would beliterally just not thinking about the match.
So yeah, I, I have done meditation, butI've never actually called it meditation.
Lori Saitz (21:33):
Most people have done some form of meditation that they don't realize is meditation.
. Donnie Boivin: Well, and I, I, but I think it's because there's such a two-way street.
When it comes, you know, most people that you meetthat talk about meditation and stuff are these
weird freaking, you know, uh, hippy dippy typepeople that are kumbaya and, and prayer circles.
(21:57):
Right.
You know, so, so it really makes it hard forthe general public to go, yeah, I'm not gonna
talk about that openly, that I'm gonna do that.
But there are some very, very successful people that will tellyou that they meditate every day and they have a time practic.
I can't do that.
You know, I, I think of meditation until you help mesee it a different way, but I, I always saw, uh, in
(22:19):
meditation was there's a Kevin Costner, uh, movie.
Damn, it's gonna escape me right now, but he's a pitcherin the Major leagues and, uh, in the Boulder Durham.
Boulder Durham.
Thank you.
Yes.
Uh, um, he's got the thing to clear the mechanism, so ifanybody hasn't seen it, it's, it's just fucking incredible.
It's not something I could do.
Um, because I've not practiced enough to be able to pullit off, but he's on the mound base figure, like Yankee
(22:44):
Stadium and the chair crowd is just cheering at him, right?
You suck chapel, you can't do this.
And they're giving him hell.
And all of a sudden he leans forwardand says, clear the mechanism.
And all of a sudden rounding, the crowd just fades awayand it's just, The guy in the batter's box, in the umpire.
It's all he can see.
For me, that's
Kevin Snow (23:03):
hopefully a catcher.
Hopefully there's a catcher.
Hopefully a catcher.
Yeah.
Donnie Boivin (23:06):
Yeah.
That, that might be helpful.
Right, right.
Sport.
Um, and, you know, the, the, but to me that's the bestvisual representation I've seen of the idea of meditation.
I just know for me personally, I can't shut it all out.
Lori Saitz (23:25):
Right.
And meditation doesn't necessarily ask you to shut it all out.
In fact, there's um, you were the one I think whooriginally introduced me to Andrew Hoberman's podcast.
Yep.
And he has an episode on meditation and he talks about the.
Part of meditation is, see, he having those thoughts and bringingyourself back to focus from those thoughts that refocusing, which
(23:51):
happens for most people, like every, you know, five seconds.
That actually helps you become better at focusingwhen you're not in meditation, that practice.
Makes you better outside of meditation.
And so in that Bull Durham movie, he would nothave been able to clear the mechanism in that
moment if he hadn't also been practicing it.
That's true.
Like it's not something you can just do one time when you'reunder a lot of stress, you practice meditation on a regular basis
(24:19):
so that when you are under stress, you can handle it better.
Donnie Boivin (24:22):
True, absolutely.
You know, the.
One thing I love about Andrew Huberman is hehas come out with a lot of things that is.
, I don't know if he would agree with thisstatement, but it's anti self-help movement.
Right.
Um, and some of the things that they've proven is that thereason a lot of people don't hit their goals is because they
(24:44):
over visualize, you know, them completing and the dopaminefires off and now they've in their head, have seen themselves
completing the task so they don't start working towards the task.
This is where I struggle with themanifest side of the, of the aisle.
Right.
My buddy Tony Watley put out a funniestpost, um, and it just cracked me up.
(25:06):
He's got a big ass dumbbell with a ton of weight onthe ground, and he's standing above it and the caption
says, I'm manifesting the dumbbell to lift itself,
And of course, it's not fucking moving.
It's not doing, it's not doing anything, you know,and, and so a lot lately, I've been going after these.
(25:27):
Over the top self-help people are saying, allright, quit talking about just manifestation.
Because anybody who has found major success in anything thatteaches manifestation, I want people to go look at their life.
and see how hard they work to get where they are.
Yet I'm sure they kept themselves in a positive frame.
(25:49):
I know you're coming at me on this one.
I know . I was picking where on purpose
. Kevin Snow: I have my, my, uh, movie theater size candy and I am for this.
I was picking, I
knew Popcorn
. Lori Saitz: Okay, so the thing about manifestation is yes, you still have to do.
(26:11):
The work, you still have to take the action.
I actually prefer that term betterof taking action than doing the work.
I, it could be the same.
We can argue with semantics, but it's about taking action.
And so when you are practicing meditation and visualization,which not all of meditation is visualization, you're
not always visualizing something to happen in.
(26:32):
Um, but two points here, one.
When you are visualizing things and meditating, you are creatinga state, um, again, for creativity and listening to, okay.
When you come out, you have more focus, you have more intention.
So it's not just about taking action, like just random.
(26:54):
It's about getting clear on the actions totake that are going to move you forward, and
so then you can go take action with intention.
And that's where I think when people are just work,hustle, do the, do all the work, they leave out the part
of doing it with intention of taking those right actions
(27:16):
and to stay with the, the idea of words and, and the I'm I hate the hustle idea and
the frame mainly cause I hate the fucking word.
Right.
Um, but what they're saying, Whatever you'retrying to accomplish is not easy, right?
Especially if you're trying to accomplish something very big.
(27:38):
It is not easy.
You're not just going to sit around and think happythoughts and magically it's gonna fucking appear, right?
You have to do the work, and most of that workthat you have to do is fucking hard to do.
, right?
So if you look at it from that perspective, there arethings you've gotta do that are fucking hard to do.
(27:59):
What separates the people, I think, that find the mostsuccess in the world and the people that don't is the
ones that are, are really successful, have accomplishedwhat they've set out to accomplish, did the hard things
for long periods of time, and because you have to
Lori Saitz (28:18):
evolve.
Yes.
Evolution is you evolving is required for sure.
You're, cuz as humans that's what we're here for.
You're living or you're, you're,you're learning, growing or dying.
Like those are your two choices.
Growth or death.
Right, right.
And in nature, that's the whole thing.
Um, I think that your focus on hardwork is, is related to your beliefs.
(28:42):
That work has to be.
But it is work doesn't, it doesn't have to be hard.
You can take action and that you believe that it has to be hard.
So it's hard.
Um, not necessarily, but taking action doesn'thave to be hard working doesn't have to feel hard.
That's part of the meditation thing.
Donnie Boivin (29:01):
Let's take it straight to business.
If you're gonna build a billion dollar company,
Mm-hmm.
, that's fucking hard
Lori Saitz (29:11):
because you believe it's hard.
Some people don't think it's hard.
Oh, you talking, they just do the work, right?
They do.
They just do the work.
But they don't have to say, oh, this is so hard.
Well, I, I, if they could say, this is so much fun,
Donnie Boivin (29:23):
that portion we may be agreeing.
I mean, I agree with you on, right.
They're, but they would tell you that it'sabsolutely the hardest thing they've ever done.
Now the second time they go through it,they'll tell you it wasn't that hard.
, right?
Because now they've got the mechanics, theevolution and everything to, to get there.
Lori Saitz (29:41):
I think people define it as hard because it's uncomfortable or it's unfamiliar.
I agree with
Donnie Boivin (29:47):
that.
I agree with that wholeheartedly.
Kevin Snow (29:50):
I, I think there's this misnomer that hard is a negative thing.
You know, just because you're workinghard, you can still be having.
But still be working hard.
Mm-hmm.
. So going back, we, we, uh, our last episodewe had Lauren Amon talking about Amond.
Aon Amon, sorry, AMX talking about, you knowssimilar concepts, but you know, when I was
(30:17):
in the wrestling room, I was working hard.
But I was still having a lot of fun because, uh, I,I enjoyed it, you know, so I, hard isn't a neg always
negative and I think that is part of the disconnect when,you know, Donnie posted about working hard and everybody's
like, oh, another c e o telling people to work hard.
(30:38):
And I giggled cuz I wanted to reply.
I'm like, Nope.
He can defend this one all himself.
He's good.
and uh, By the way, the guy
Donnie Boivin (30:46):
did not come back and defend after I, you know, went at him.
Kevin Snow (30:50):
You know?
But just cuz you're working harddoesn't mean it's bad and you that.
So I think we need to make that shift cuz Donnieand I work hard, but we enjoy what we're doing.
Lori Saitz (31:02):
Yeah.
Well, again, it's work.
I think it comes, comes to semantics because I would,that word doesn't feel comfortable to me, so I might
use, like working diligently, working with intention.
It's,
Donnie Boivin (31:14):
I get, get that because I don't like the word goals, so I say targets, you know?
Yep.
Um, you know, same, same similar concept.
I just, I'm, I'm annoyed with the movement that's goingafter the people that are busting their ass and enjoying it.
and they're like, well, you're a workaholicor you are putting in too much time.
Not if I'm getting fulfillment from the activity.
Lori Saitz (31:37):
Right, right.
And integrating, cuz I know we all,well all agree on that balance thing.
Five.
Yes.
In integrating time with people,other people in your life who need.
Because it's very easy to say, I love what I'm doing in buildingmy business and to do it to, in, in excess, if you will.
(32:01):
Um, and ignore what's happening at home.
Donnie Boivin (32:04):
I know for a fact you were busting your ass, I mean, grindstone busting
your ass, and then you took a 30 day sabbatical.
Mm-hmm.
, you came back a different fucking person, which is awesome.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Yeah.
, talk to me about it.
What changed?
Lori Saitz (32:23):
I was doing all the things, like all the things.
I look at my calendar from the first halfof last year and I'm tired looking at it.
Just everything that was scheduled and I was burned out andhere I am teaching people how to use gratitude and meditation.
to stay calm and grounded no matter what's going on around them.
(32:46):
I was calm and grounded, but I was burned out, and that'snot, should not be part of the equation, . And so I
finally went, all right, well, I'm doing all the things.
I'm not seeing the success I'd like to see.
So what would happen if I juststopped doing all the fucking things?
What would happen then?
. So I just, and I had had several conversationswith other people who were doing that.
(33:09):
They were like, yeah, I'm burned out.
I'm taking a year off, or 30 days or whatever it was.
I'm like, oh, I'm gonna try that.
And so I did, and I went and I didn'tdo any work during those 30 days.
I took a 30 day road trip sabbatical with a 19 year old cat.
Um, if you, if you wanna hear more about that story,you can read my chapter in Love warriors, the, the
(33:30):
book Love Warriors, where I talk more about that.
But, um, I needed that time to decompressand the not working and spending time.
I, I wasn't spending days in meditation, but I was spending,some days I was playing, I was out having fun with friends.
I was visiting friends.
I was sitting on the beach while Iwas literally sitting on the beach.
(33:52):
Two of the biggest business deals,uh, to ever cross my computer came to.
and one of them is something that I'minvolved in now as a business partnership.
It's enormous because I wasn't pushing a rock up ahill every single day trying to make things happen.
(34:13):
And this is where it comes back to the workingwith intention and not just being busy.
What is it that, what are the actions to take that?
Give you the best results andsometimes, not, sometimes, all the time.
It requires stepping back.
There needs to be a period of stepping back.
(34:34):
I remember many years ago, a very, very successful businessfriend who was very successful in business said her father
told her that sometimes you have to take a step back.
When you open the refrigerator door,you're, you're leading in to get something.
But before you can lean in to get something, youhave to take two steps back to open the door.
Donnie Boivin (34:56):
I like it.
I mean, cuz you came back so renewed.
Uh, from, from that and I think that was a lot of it.
Um, but I do like the idea of opening the refrigerator door.
That's a really, really cool visual to, tobe able to look at your business that way.
Yeah.
Kevin Snow (35:12):
Well, and, and I think it's important for business owners in general to be able to look
at the actions that they're taking and, uh, havean objective evaluation of how effective they are.
You know, if a specific action is notworking for you, it's now just busy work.
and you need to replace it with some sort of action thatdoes work for you and gets you to the places you need to be.
(35:38):
And you know, if you are not doing that, then you're reallyjust, you know, you're getting yourself into that grind mindset
where it's like, well, I have to do these things because theseare the things that business owners are supposed to do well.
No, those are the business.
Those are the things that may work really well for Donnie,or they're the things that work well for me or for you.
(36:01):
They're not necessarily the things thatare right for that specific individual.
. Yes.
Lori Saitz (36:08):
And then the other piece of this that's really important is that I, it was taking time to recharge.
And what I realized on that sabbatical is thatI was never allowing myself time to recharge.
Donna, you go out and you're on your farm working.
Mm-hmm.
, that's your time to recharge and not be working at this business.
(36:29):
, right, right.
You're, you're still doing something,but that for you is a recharging time.
I was working from nine o'clock in the morningtill like 10 30 at night, and I would take an
hour to go to the gym, but that's not recharging.
That's still part of like my normal day.
And so we need to take time every day to recharge our batteriesso that when you come back in the morning or whenever you get
(36:52):
back in front of your computer, you're ready to go, not juststill burned out from what you didn't accomplish yesterday.
Donnie Boivin (36:58):
Yeah.
And, and just so you know, that working on afarm is hard work, by the way, . I, I hear you
I couldn't leave it.
I couldn't leave it, you know, but, but you know, I, forme, all this, I, I, I, I have so much respect for you
and I, and I truly re mean that because even that lastsegment of looking back and reflecting on your business,
(37:22):
so often people put their head down and just work.
. Right?
And, and if you just work without taking astep back and, and analyzing, is this working?
Am I doing the right things?
Uh, I think most people get busy because they actually don't knowwhat the next step or stage of their business should be, right?
And so that, that ability to step back however you do it, I don'tknow if I'd suggest everybody take 30 days off their business.
(37:50):
, but it worked for you, which is a beautiful thing.
Right.
You know?
Yeah.
But the, the ability to come back and lookat everything is just a cool perspective.
So I'll have, you know, I did try meditating for five minutes.
It didn't fucking work.
I was so squirrel brained.
Holy fucking.
I know it needs to go ongoing
Lori Saitz (38:09):
and, no, no.
I have another, I have something else foryou that I've recently gotten more into it.
Breath work.
What will you talk about?
I, I've been
Donnie Boivin (38:16):
trying buying box breathing.
Lori Saitz (38:19):
Nope.
Nope.
No, I got, I got somebody to introduce you to.
Donnie Boivin (38:22):
All right.
Bring them.
I, I'd love to talk to him.
Uh, I'm fascinated to learn more about all this stuff.
Andrew Huberman talks a lot about breath work, you know, sois Tom biu, you know, so I'm interested in all that stuff.
Well, Lori, thanks for doing this.
How do people find you?
Lori Saitz (38:37):
At my website, Zen rabbit.com is the best place to find me.
Donnie Boivin (38:42):
And what's the phenomenal podcast you
Lori Saitz (38:44):
have?
It's called fine is a four letter word.
Donnie Boivin (38:48):
Okay, go check it out.
She has some phenomenal conversations on,there's still one of the podcasts I listen
to, so thank you so much for doing this babe.
I really appreciate you having onand thanks for always being you.
Thanks for
Lori Saitz (39:00):
having me.
Donnie Boivin (39:02):
All right.
I gotta be honest, that went better than I expected.
Uh, I really, I mean, I knew I was picking afight with Lori, uh, going into it, and, uh,
I really loved how she challenged me on this.
Kevin Snow (39:17):
Well, and, and it was, I was, I was kind of expecting fireworks because you two
have been, uh, exchanging jabs via social media.
Not like directly calling each other out, butyou'd make a post and then she would reply with
another post that was countering what you said.
And so I was like, oh, this could get reallyinteresting, . I'm, I'm gonna sit back and enjoy.
(39:42):
So that, that was, that was a really fun conversation though.
And I, I loved a couple of the things thatshe brought up about how meditation isn.
Sitting in the lotus position humming to yourself,although I think you should try it maybe out in
your, with your goats and sitting up on one of the,uh, one of the boxes and see how that goes for you.
Yeah.
Between
Donnie Boivin (40:00):
400 pounds of dogs taking me out and goat choose me as a jungle gym.
Yeah, that's not gonna work.
Kevin Snow (40:06):
Um, they do yoga with goats, using 'em as a jungle jam.
So, yeah,
Donnie Boivin (40:09):
just cuz people are dumb and don't are okay getting shit on.
I mean, that, that's all there is to it,
. Kevin Snow: Um, but I, I love that whole idea.
That, you know, you don't have to meditate.
That's not how you meditate.
You can meditate anywhere.
Yeah.
And in any type of situation.
I thought that was really freaking
cool.
The, the.
(40:31):
I agree.
I mean, I love going on my morning walks.
I love having the distraction so that I can focus.
Uh, although I recently heard a podcastepisode, I wish I could give them credit.
I don't remember what the show I was talking to, but youknow, you should be able to go for a walk and not need a
distraction to just be with your thoughts type of things.
And I thought that's, Bullshit, fuck off.
(40:53):
But I do see the power of being able to quiet yourmind enough without the influence of something else.
I just haven't mastered that yet.
Well, I,
Kevin Snow (41:02):
I've liked the distraction idea because it kind of guides, it's like guided meditation.
It's kind of guiding where your thoughts need to go.
Uh, and you, you're, you're able to kind ofkeep yourself from going down the really bad.
over analytical rabbit holes, and that'swhat happens to me a lot of times.
If I don't have that distraction going on, I startthinking and my mind just goes somewhere and I'm
(41:27):
like, all right, now I'm having to overcome, you know,tell myself, all right, stop thinking those things.
That's not actually a thing.
And I'm now, I'm having those conversations with meas opposed to, uh, which is probably okay at times,
but as opposed to meditating and thinking about thethings that are actually helping me move forward.
Yeah.
So.
. Um, and, and that's what I found when I havelike a podcast on and I kind of will space out
(41:50):
is because it triggered me thinking about things.
I'm like, oh, what about this and that?
And then, then I, then I'm going through just lettingthe mind go, and then the podcast will pull me back out.
So I like the distraction.
I think it's beneficial for my brain chemistry.
Donnie Boivin (42:06):
No, I, I'm, I'm right there with you.
I'm only questioning it for myself.
Is.
, is there another gear?
Like, is it, you know, is there one more notch?
What would it take for me to get to a point of I wouldn'tneed the distraction, uh, to, to more, more drugs?
Maybe, maybe . So, but, but I, you know, it's the idea,could I go for a walk without having to listen to a podcast?
(42:34):
What would more, where would my mind go?
What would I discover about myself in those moments?
Is, is something.
I'm toying with the idea of going and playing with
Kevin Snow (42:45):
it.
So have you tried it?
Donnie Boivin (42:47):
Not yet.
Not yet.
Not yet.
You know, this is this, uh, part of it's cuzI just had that surgery, so I'm only walking
in my house versus out on the driveway.
So, uh, you know, I, I will in one of these near mornings, but,
Kevin Snow (43:04):
Bad, and you've had three inches of ice on your entire property the last few days.
So walking outside was just, you know, eight ounce, not smart.
Donnie Boivin (43:11):
Right, right, right.
So I'm
Kevin Snow (43:14):
curious, you, you, you would've had to put your, your wristband back on.
Yeah.
Fall
Donnie Boivin (43:17):
risk.
My fall risk , which I do have right there from the hospital.
Um, oh.
Um, but you know, so knowing that I'm doing this distraction, Inow have a form of meditation that I'm doing on a daily basis.
Um, I, I, you know, you said one of the greatest thingsthat you do is you do it, uh, when you're driving and you're
distraction when you're, when you know when you're driving.
One of the best times.
(43:38):
How are you gonna find meditation likethis on your world on a regular basis?
Cuz you don't do the morning walks like I do.
You don't drive every day.
Kevin Snow (43:48):
So I'm trying to work out on a daily basis and I, I think that is, One of the places
that I would disconnect and do meditation.
Uh, cause looking back when I would do the, and therewould usually be half hour, 45 minute workouts, you know,
my, I would be doing the exercise, but my mind wouldbe also be thinking about other stuff at the same time.
(44:13):
So it was, that was giving me the, you know, 30 45.
Shots of, of thinking.
Um, and it was because they were brokenup with, all right, now you do this thing.
You know, I, I think my mind's focused, well, not necessarilyfocused, but my mind could cycle through thoughts more.
(44:37):
And I could have multiple more little conversationswithin my head with myself, as opposed to, it
didn't let me go down that giant rabbit holewhen I'm not distracted by other things going on.
Yeah.
Where I'm now just into the, uh, you know, oh, what ifthis happens and, you know, and then this will happen,
and oh my God, this is, you know, the, all that type ofstuff, which I'm trying to stay away from as much as.
(45:02):
That's
Donnie Boivin (45:02):
smart.
I, I'm gonna try and implement more into, focused on a one ideal.
Yo, like, what, what's the next problem I'm trying to solve?
What's the next issue I'm trying to get past and see if Ican do more of a focused attention on a particular topic,
theme or the likes, and see what comes up from that.
(45:22):
So, so, um, but a great conversation.
Uh, I love hanging out with Rabbit.
She's just, she's good people.
Yep.
She's got a genuine heart.
Uh, she's got a ridiculous amount of knowledge in that head and.
And, and I'm excited to see where her journey takes us.
Where her journey takes her, I should say.
So, uh,
Kevin Snow (45:43):
and we're back to the universe providing her journey is gonna take us places,
Donnie Boivin (45:47):
right?
Well, you never know.
You never know.
So, but guys, if you got any value out of this, you know,we don't have any sponsors on the show other than us.
So do us a favor and please go leave us a review wherever.
Our listening to this, uh, it means the world to us.
And those reviews are huge in helping other people find the show.
(46:11):
Now, if you're on YouTube, please subscribe to the channel.
Comment below, you know, your kind oftakeaways, thoughts and questions on this.
And as always, guys, uh, make sure you're subscribed.
Love you minute.
See you.
Bye.
And so when we talk about meditation, what you and I have always bumped heads on is that that
misconception around what meditation is, that it meanssitting quietly on a mat with cross legs and for an hour
at a time, emptying your head of all thoughts, right?
, right?
And that could be a form of meditation,but a lot of people can't get there.
So that's what I talk a lot about is thatthose myths and misconceptions around what
(00:23):
meditation really is, and you're not alone.
Not being able to sit still and clear the thoughts.
Donnie Boivin (00:43):
Dude, for years I.
Grew up on this self-help world where I think in my head, Ireally thought that the, that a book or a tape or a conference
or seminar, thinking happy thoughts, all those type of things,were going to get me to some supposed level of success, man.
(01:05):
And I tell you, I bought into this general.
Thought process of, you know, I could tell myself I'mawesome, amazing, you know, the Stewart Smiley style of
thi side of things and I would almost be able to programmyself, uh, to some magical freaking world of success.
(01:26):
And it's really took me to.
Screwing up and almost losing everything.
I had to understand that there's no amount of thinking orhaving happy thoughts is going to get me where I need to go.
You've actually gotta get in the game, get punched in thegame face, screw it all up, learn from your screw ups and
(01:50):
keep moving forward and that's where you find success.
Kevin Snow (01:55):
Yeah, it's, you know, You, you see so much stuff on, on Facebook and the internet of, of people who
are promoting their, you know, be like me, do these thingsand it's uh, and it's never that like tactical things.
to actually help you improve.
(02:15):
And that's always been my issue.
When I want to figure out how to get somewhere inmy mind, I go, all right, there's gotta be steps.
There's gotta be actions I gotta take, things I can do.
Uh, and this whole concept of not doingthings, uh, and, and we've been kind of.
Picking on the, the, those people a lot latelywith the whole concept of, you know, just, just
(02:37):
put it out there and it'll, it'll come back to you.
The universe, the universe
Donnie Boivin (02:41):
will provide, the
Kevin Snow (02:42):
universe will provide type thing.
It never made sense or was actuallysomething that I was like, all right.
Yeah, let's do this.
So I, but lemme ask
Donnie Boivin (02:51):
a question.
Yep.
Go.
Because, because, uh, this just popped in my head and,and, uh, you can answer this better than I can too.
What's the difference between saying theuniverse will be provide versus the church world
saying, God will take care of me, type thing.
You know, to me, in my head, it's the same, same,you know, they're, they're both saying the same
(03:13):
thing, just using a different deity, if you will.
Kevin Snow (03:17):
So, I, uh, so there are factions within the church that are like, you know, don't go to doctors.
The God will take care of you.
And it's all, you know, literally everything's left in his hands.
And that, that's not how I was everbrought up to believe, uh, you know.
, I was brought up to believe that God gave doctorsreally good brains and gave them the ability to go
(03:40):
learn how to do that, and allowing them to do theirthing was, you know, God gave you this resource.
Go use it.
So you, there was still that expectation that you had totake some sort of action and personal responsibility to take
advantage of the blessings that God bestowed in your world.
It wasn't just a, oh, just sit thereand God will magically heal you.
(04:04):
So
Donnie Boivin (04:05):
that, I don't know why hearing it on the universe side of things, it doesn't bother me, but every time
I hear about the church side of things, my skin crawls, right.
The whole concept of that justfucking eats me from the inside out.
But, uh, uh, but that makes sense though.
I mean, cuz it's still coming from a place of, of.
You've gotta show up and do the things.
(04:26):
Yeah.
Kevin Snow (04:27):
It's like, it, it'd be like jumping out of a airplane without a parachute and saying, well, God will protect me.
Dumb ass.
God gave you a parachute.
Donnie Boivin (04:37):
Or the guy in the or, or the guy in the, in the, the factory that did the sewing and whatnot gave you parachute.
But, but, you know, whatever, whatever.
, yeah.
Kevin Snow (04:46):
He helped, he gave, made someone smart so they were able to in, to invent a parachute
and he, they put it on that plane for you to use.
Donnie Boivin (04:54):
So a bunch of molecules came together.
As they came together, they learned to skew that.
So now,
Kevin Snow (05:00):
so, so now you are actually promoting that this, the universe provides
Donnie Boivin (05:04):
No, no.
I'm, I'm, I'm a . Cause
Kevin Snow (05:07):
that's just what you literally said.
You know, the bunch of molecules just came together.
No, no.
I'm, I'm
Donnie Boivin (05:12):
saying science provides in that matter.
Uh uh, so
Kevin Snow (05:15):
science, just the whole concept of understanding God's creation.
Donnie Boivin (05:19):
No, that's a religious argument.
Uh uh.
I don't believe in a quote unquote, God, I'm not an atheistcause I say there's something there, but I do, do, I, I, I.
Let me change that.
I hope there's something there, because that's alot better to think about than it's just straight.
Stuff that we've evolved into.
(05:41):
It's more fun for me to think, uh, the other direction.
Do I think anybody walked this damn earth and did anything?
Hell no.
Um, I don't believe in that at all.
But, um, the, the, even if there was some magicianthat walked this earth that could perform skills
(06:02):
and, and magic and everything else, I'd wanna meet.
Because if they got fucking magic skills, and, and look,let's be honest, if you can turn water into wine, it's
gotta be just one little tweak to turn it into rum.
I'm fucking in, you know?
So, so I get it.
But I, I think religion works, the universal stuff works.
(06:27):
I think all of that stuff works because, To a lot ofpeople, a shortcut to wherever they're trying to get.
right?
Whether you're trying to get to heaven, maybeyou're trying to get to success, maybe you're
trying to get to spiritual enlightenment.
Maybe you're trying to get to some sort of kumbaya state of mind.
(06:49):
The ideology hunt behind it all is you can pray, youcan think happy, thought you can do whatever, and
miraculously you will find what you're looking for.
Um, and I.
. It's not even the extremes.
I think it's a majority of the people that go down thosepaths are looking for that easy button to find some sort of
(07:11):
success when, and that's why there's only 10 to 20% of peoplethat actually find success in all these endeavors is because
they, they the people that realize that there is some truth.
To all of this knowledge and the likes, and even as muchas I bash on it, Kevin bashes on it, Kevin, Kevin hates
(07:32):
the universal WOOWOO stuff 10 times worse than I do.
Um, Kevin hates it as much as I hate the religious stuff, right?
So, so the but the, the, the ideas.
is everything is based in some sort of foundationaltruth or you can manipulate it enough to
get back to some sort of truth, if you will.
(07:54):
And I, I think for me, um, and I'll speakspecifically for myself, I wanted the easy button.
I wanted to be able to go, I'm rich, and all of a suddenI'm rich and turns out rich is only my dad's name.
Um, but , uh, the, the.
(08:16):
Overarching thing is I think people want tobe able to journal their way to success, think
happy thoughts to success, pray to success.
They want it to show up withoutactually having to do the real work.
Kevin Snow (08:32):
Yeah.
And, and maybe it's for me, having grown up onthe farm, you know, we had to do the work and.
and you, you had to go out and plant the crops.
You had to go take care of the animals.
You know, you couldn't just assumethat it was all going to happen.
So even though a very religious family, there was stillthat concept of, you know, God gave you these resources.
(08:55):
You still need to go figure out how to make them.
Grow and make them do things.
It, you know, it wasn't just, uh, oh, God'sgonna make the crops grow for you this year.
No, you still gotta go plan 'em, youstill gotta go, go, uh, go weed them.
You gotta, you know, do the, the disking and,and all the different things to make them grow.
So, uh, and so maybe it's, we're just more practical andpragmatic about how we look at that universal concept.
(09:23):
because you totally, if you were not ever had never been in areligious world, you could totally look at that whole concept
of, you know, pray to God for what your needs and he'll provide.
It was like, oh God, I, I, I need a million dollars.
You know, poof.
Why, why is there not a million dollars in my bank account?
Uh, when that's really not the concept, at leastin how I was raised in the churches I went to.
Donnie Boivin (09:46):
So, yeah.
Yep.
And you know, I'll also say that I was.
I wasn't brought up in a, in a church going family, if you will.
We did the church thing on several times.
Um, uh, even once I went out and found religion on my ownand, um, you know, practiced and learned a lot of things,
(10:10):
I think that that's what set me, not, not not the churchthing, but the idea of there could be a better life.
Sent me searching for things that I could do to get better.
And I think instead of actively looking for improving skillsof some sort, I spent the entire time trying to game the system
(10:40):
because gaming the system was how I got ahead and a lot ofthings from school, the Marine Corps, blah, blah, blah, and.
The truth of the matter is, is there'sno gaming the system in life, right?
If you want to get to some sort of level of success, you'vegotta do the things that you might deem as hard, might deem
(11:05):
tough, and go do them on a consistent, regular basis sothat you can put yourself in a position to screw things up.
and be able to learn.
So as much as we bash on all of this, there is some,some foundational truths to this entire idea of, of.
(11:27):
even to the point of you, you're better off thinkingin a more positive nature than a negative nature.
You're better off, you know, staying out of the mindset, uh,and staying in a more happy, you know, ness, style of thinking.
And there's, you know, things like journaling, meditationsand all of that, they're all rooted in some good stuff.
(11:53):
You know, for me, meditation has always beensomething that's been extremely hard for me.
And so when we talk about you gotta do the hard things, man,I can't tell you how many successful people put out content.
And they talk about, they meditate, and itpisses me off because I can't just sit there
and go, Hmm, and fucking meditate, , you know?
(12:14):
It just doesn't work for me.
. And so that's why in this week's episode, I'm fascinatedto sit down with, uh, Lori sights over at Zen Rabbits.
We're gonna talk about all things meditate, and y'all strapit in because me and Lori go straight at it to the point of
Kevin grabs his Twizzlers and goes, Ooh, this is gonna be good.
So y'all enjoy this episode,
(12:36):
. Kevin Snow: Grab your popcorn now.
All right, so this is gonna be another fun one.
I love giving people nicknames and I'mfixing to introduce you guys to Rabbit.
Her company name is Zen Rabbit.
So I've called her Rabbit for the longest time,uh, and she's just one of my favorite people.
Um, and, and she's taught me some really cool lifelessons about something that I absolutely fucking
(12:58):
hated and could not wrap my damn head around.
Though she's an expert on meditation,she's an expert on a lot of things of.
How she looks at life and, and just always fun to hang out with.
So, bringing on Miss Lori Seitz.
Um, Lori, tell me really quick, what is meditation?
(13:19):
Why the fuck should we do it and how do you getan asshole like me to actually give it a go?
Uh, when I despise the entire thought process around it?
? Yeah.
Well,
Lori Saitz (13:29):
my , yes.
And I know that, uh, my definitionof meditation, the question is,
Kevin Snow (13:36):
That question in itself could be like three different episodes.
, Lori Saitz: absolutely.
My definition of meditation is getting quiet enough,getting, allowing yourself to get into a space where
you are quiet enough to hear the, your own inner voice.
That voice that tells you whethersomething's right or wrong for you.
And it's.
That the only voice, the voice that only you can hear.
(14:00):
And a lot, some people call it intuition.
It could be if you believe in God or the universe,it could be that higher source speaking to you.
But that's to me, meditation is allowingyourself to get into that space to hear that.
And when you do that, that's when you know what is the rightdecision or what are the right choices for you instead of
(14:21):
listening to what everybody else outside of you is telling you.
Donnie Boivin (14:25):
So, There was a day you and I were on a Zoom and I was talking about my fucking morning walks.
Mm-hmm.
, and you were talking about meditation and I could feel my owneyes rolling in the back of my head as you were talking about it.
Right.
Um, and I'm like, this fucking meditation stuff, man.
Because I just, the idea of trying to sit for fiveminutes and get quiet just fucking drives me bonkers.
(14:48):
Right.
Call it adhd.
Yeah.
Call it just high energy, whatever the fuck you want to call it.
Just the, the entire thought process.
So for, for anybody who doesn't know, every morning onmy farm, I go walk 45 minutes and listen to a podcast.
And I listen to a podcast cause I gotta bedistracted to think, um, it's just the way I'm wired.
And Lori and I were kind of getting into almost a heatedconversation over this stuff and she finally popped
(15:11):
off and said, Donnie, do you realize that when you zoneout on those fucking walks, you're actually meditating?
And I paused and I was like, son of a bitch.
I've been doing something that I didn'tthink I could do for a very long time.
So one, thank you for that.
But you're welcome.
Two, explain that for me.
Lori Saitz (15:31):
Yeah.
So when you come back from those walks, that's when you write.
Yep.
That's when you take all of those thoughts thathave been rolling around in your head while you're
walking, forming, and put 'em down on paper, andthat writing process is also part of a meditative.
you're in a meditative state Essentially when you'redoing that, you're reaching this alpha brainwave
(15:53):
level and it's a very creative place to what's wait to
Donnie Boivin (15:58):
be?
What's alpha brainwave level?
What the hell is that?
So,
Lori Saitz (16:00):
okay, so the brain operates on different, um, frequencies and alpha is typically
when you, it's that that state between awaken.
Like right before you fall asleep, when you're in meditation,you're typically in alpha, beta is what we are in right now.
You're fully conscious.
And then
Donnie Boivin (16:18):
there's so, so that's the same state you get in like when you're driving down the road and you
get to a destination, but you don't remember the drive
Lori Saitz (16:24):
that Yeah, you could be dipping into that level.
And then there's a couple of a theta and deltamuch deeper when you're asleep or unconscious.
Um, and then there's even a gamma level now too that,anyway, um, is that the one Turns an incredible.
. Donnie Boivin: Yes.
Like Like a Garay.
No,
. Lori Saitz: Yeah, exactly.
. Yeah.
But, but Alpha's, when you're in that creative, creative state,you're meditative, you're you, all those great ideas come to you.
(16:50):
A lot of people who are runners, that's kind of maybewhere they are when they're out running, not necessarily
runners high, but that place where you're just in the.
Donnie Boivin (17:00):
Love it.
Lori Saitz (17:01):
Love it.
Yeah.
And so when we talk about meditation, what you and I have alwaysbumped heads on is that that misconception around what meditation
is, that it means sitting quietly on a mat with cross legs andfor an hour at a time, emptying your head of all thoughts, right?
Right.
And that could be a form of meditation,but a lot of people can't get there.
So that's what I talk a lot about is thatthose myths and misconceptions around what
(17:24):
meditation really is, and you're not alone in.
Not being able to sit still and clear the thoughts.
And so this is why I love telling people, if you cango out and walk in nature, that could be meditative.
Typically, I tell people to not take their electronics,but I understand that you like, that's how your
(17:44):
mind gets quiet is by listening to something.
Yeah.
So whatever it is that gets you into thatstate, that could be considered meditative.
. Donnie Boivin: So why does somebody need to get to that state?
What's the point?
You know, I Right
now especially,
Donnie Boivin (18:03):
go ahead.
Go ahead.
No, you're good.
You're good.
You're good.
Lori Saitz (18:05):
You already, right now, especially, we are so overwhelmed with messages from outside of
ourselves, the social media, traditional media, family,friends, uh, well-meaning colleagues, even well-meaning
coaches, like what it, they can give you advice.
But that doesn't always mean that it's the right thing for you.
And getting into this meditative state on aconsistent basis allows you, like I said, to tap
(18:31):
into that inner voice and hear what the answers are.
Now, this is why a lot of people don't like getting intoit, because they don't wanna hear, like, they don't wanna
Donnie Boivin (18:42):
admit what they're hearing.
I don't wanna hear the freaking constructionwork going on behind you as well.
Yes, . Yes,
Lori Saitz (18:46):
exactly.
Yeah.
Um, They, because it doesn't sound necessarily logicalor maybe it's uncomfortable that voice is telling them
to, you know, leave their full-time job and start abusiness or whatever, or, or, you know, go bigger.
Like you need to do more on social, you needto run videos, whatever it is, that's scary.
(19:09):
So they don't wanna hear it, so they avoid it.
But also what meditation does is it helps you, uh, get clear on.
Just, it clears the channel sothat you can make better decisions.
This is where it gets really important for,especially for entrepreneurs and business
(19:31):
owners, is it helps you be more creative.
It helps you be a better leader.
It helps you make better decisions to comefrom a place of responding instead of reacting.
Donnie Boivin (19:44):
Kevin, I'm curious, have you ever tried meditating?
Kevin Snow (19:47):
I think my meditation is kind of the same as yours.
I will do that a lot when I'm doing my long drives whereI will kind of, uh, kind of zone out and just go down,
you know, wherever the rabbit hole of thought takes me.
Uh, and without trying to really think about stuff, uh, a, a ton.
(20:10):
So I, I, I've never.
You know, it's never been something in my schedule.
It's like, ooh, it's time for meditation.
Uh, but it's, you know, there are, I dunno why
Donnie Boivin (20:21):
that makes me giggle, but that entire idea, Ooh, it's time for meditation.
Time.
I,
Kevin Snow (20:24):
meditation and, and as an athlete, before, Before I compete, I try to always get somewhere and there's
always, there would be headphones and music so I coulddrown out all the cheering and all the crowd noise and
everything coming off the mats where I tried to just likeliterally just stop thinking about the upcoming match.
(20:45):
So there was that piece as well where, because Iwould overthink, and that was something I learned
when I got to college is I would overthink my matchand I would try and map out what was going to happen.
Uh, and do you know, here I'm gonna do this, andthen we're gonna shoot a double, and then it'll be
all that stuff and it would just really screw me up.
So I got to the point from talking to other wrestlers,like, yeah, I, you, you need to stop thinking about it.
(21:09):
You need to literally just.
go do.
So I'd have that in my warmup session where I would justliterally stop and I'd usually sitting under the bleachers,
I'd have been warmed up, so I already got the sweat going.
The, the music's on loud and it would beliterally just not thinking about the match.
So yeah, I, I have done meditation, butI've never actually called it meditation.
Lori Saitz (21:33):
Most people have done some form of meditation that they don't realize is meditation.
. Donnie Boivin: Well, and I, I, but I think it's because there's such a two-way street.
When it comes, you know, most people that you meetthat talk about meditation and stuff are these
weird freaking, you know, uh, hippy dippy typepeople that are kumbaya and, and prayer circles.
(21:57):
Right.
You know, so, so it really makes it hard forthe general public to go, yeah, I'm not gonna
talk about that openly, that I'm gonna do that.
But there are some very, very successful people that will tellyou that they meditate every day and they have a time practic.
I can't do that.
You know, I, I think of meditation until you help mesee it a different way, but I, I always saw, uh, in
(22:19):
meditation was there's a Kevin Costner, uh, movie.
Damn, it's gonna escape me right now, but he's a pitcherin the Major leagues and, uh, in the Boulder Durham.
Boulder Durham.
Thank you.
Yes.
Uh, um, he's got the thing to clear the mechanism, so ifanybody hasn't seen it, it's, it's just fucking incredible.
It's not something I could do.
Um, because I've not practiced enough to be able to pullit off, but he's on the mound base figure, like Yankee
(22:44):
Stadium and the chair crowd is just cheering at him, right?
You suck chapel, you can't do this.
And they're giving him hell.
And all of a sudden he leans forwardand says, clear the mechanism.
And all of a sudden rounding, the crowd just fades awayand it's just, The guy in the batter's box, in the umpire.
It's all he can see.
For me, that's
Kevin Snow (23:03):
hopefully a catcher.
Hopefully there's a catcher.
Hopefully a catcher.
Yeah.
Donnie Boivin (23:06):
Yeah.
That, that might be helpful.
Right, right.
Sport.
Um, and, you know, the, the, but to me that's the bestvisual representation I've seen of the idea of meditation.
I just know for me personally, I can't shut it all out.
Lori Saitz (23:25):
Right.
And meditation doesn't necessarily ask you to shut it all out.
In fact, there's um, you were the one I think whooriginally introduced me to Andrew Hoberman's podcast.
Yep.
And he has an episode on meditation and he talks about the.
Part of meditation is, see, he having those thoughts and bringingyourself back to focus from those thoughts that refocusing, which
(23:51):
happens for most people, like every, you know, five seconds.
That actually helps you become better at focusingwhen you're not in meditation, that practice.
Makes you better outside of meditation.
And so in that Bull Durham movie, he would nothave been able to clear the mechanism in that
moment if he hadn't also been practicing it.
That's true.
Like it's not something you can just do one time when you'reunder a lot of stress, you practice meditation on a regular basis
(24:19):
so that when you are under stress, you can handle it better.
Donnie Boivin (24:22):
True, absolutely.
You know, the.
One thing I love about Andrew Huberman is hehas come out with a lot of things that is.
, I don't know if he would agree with thisstatement, but it's anti self-help movement.
Right.
Um, and some of the things that they've proven is that thereason a lot of people don't hit their goals is because they
(24:44):
over visualize, you know, them completing and the dopaminefires off and now they've in their head, have seen themselves
completing the task so they don't start working towards the task.
This is where I struggle with themanifest side of the, of the aisle.
Right.
My buddy Tony Watley put out a funniestpost, um, and it just cracked me up.
(25:06):
He's got a big ass dumbbell with a ton of weight onthe ground, and he's standing above it and the caption
says, I'm manifesting the dumbbell to lift itself,
And of course, it's not fucking moving.
It's not doing, it's not doing anything, you know,and, and so a lot lately, I've been going after these.
(25:27):
Over the top self-help people are saying, allright, quit talking about just manifestation.
Because anybody who has found major success in anything thatteaches manifestation, I want people to go look at their life.
and see how hard they work to get where they are.
Yet I'm sure they kept themselves in a positive frame.
(25:49):
I know you're coming at me on this one.
I know . I was picking where on purpose
. Kevin Snow: I have my, my, uh, movie theater size candy and I am for this.
I was picking, I
knew Popcorn
. Lori Saitz: Okay, so the thing about manifestation is yes, you still have to do.
(26:11):
The work, you still have to take the action.
I actually prefer that term betterof taking action than doing the work.
I, it could be the same.
We can argue with semantics, but it's about taking action.
And so when you are practicing meditation and visualization,which not all of meditation is visualization, you're
not always visualizing something to happen in.
(26:32):
Um, but two points here, one.
When you are visualizing things and meditating, you are creatinga state, um, again, for creativity and listening to, okay.
When you come out, you have more focus, you have more intention.
So it's not just about taking action, like just random.
(26:54):
It's about getting clear on the actions totake that are going to move you forward, and
so then you can go take action with intention.
And that's where I think when people are just work,hustle, do the, do all the work, they leave out the part
of doing it with intention of taking those right actions
(27:16):
and to stay with the, the idea of words and, and the I'm I hate the hustle idea and
the frame mainly cause I hate the fucking word.
Right.
Um, but what they're saying, Whatever you'retrying to accomplish is not easy, right?
Especially if you're trying to accomplish something very big.
(27:38):
It is not easy.
You're not just going to sit around and think happythoughts and magically it's gonna fucking appear, right?
You have to do the work, and most of that workthat you have to do is fucking hard to do.
, right?
So if you look at it from that perspective, there arethings you've gotta do that are fucking hard to do.
(27:59):
What separates the people, I think, that find the mostsuccess in the world and the people that don't is the
ones that are, are really successful, have accomplishedwhat they've set out to accomplish, did the hard things
for long periods of time, and because you have to
Lori Saitz (28:18):
evolve.
Yes.
Evolution is you evolving is required for sure.
You're, cuz as humans that's what we're here for.
You're living or you're, you're,you're learning, growing or dying.
Like those are your two choices.
Growth or death.
Right, right.
And in nature, that's the whole thing.
Um, I think that your focus on hardwork is, is related to your beliefs.
(28:42):
That work has to be.
But it is work doesn't, it doesn't have to be hard.
You can take action and that you believe that it has to be hard.
So it's hard.
Um, not necessarily, but taking action doesn'thave to be hard working doesn't have to feel hard.
That's part of the meditation thing.
Donnie Boivin (29:01):
Let's take it straight to business.
If you're gonna build a billion dollar company,
Mm-hmm.
, that's fucking hard
Lori Saitz (29:11):
because you believe it's hard.
Some people don't think it's hard.
Oh, you talking, they just do the work, right?
They do.
They just do the work.
But they don't have to say, oh, this is so hard.
Well, I, I, if they could say, this is so much fun,
Donnie Boivin (29:23):
that portion we may be agreeing.
I mean, I agree with you on, right.
They're, but they would tell you that it'sabsolutely the hardest thing they've ever done.
Now the second time they go through it,they'll tell you it wasn't that hard.
, right?
Because now they've got the mechanics, theevolution and everything to, to get there.
Lori Saitz (29:41):
I think people define it as hard because it's uncomfortable or it's unfamiliar.
I agree with
Donnie Boivin (29:47):
that.
I agree with that wholeheartedly.
Kevin Snow (29:50):
I, I think there's this misnomer that hard is a negative thing.
You know, just because you're workinghard, you can still be having.
But still be working hard.
Mm-hmm.
. So going back, we, we, uh, our last episodewe had Lauren Amon talking about Amond.
Aon Amon, sorry, AMX talking about, you knowssimilar concepts, but you know, when I was
(30:17):
in the wrestling room, I was working hard.
But I was still having a lot of fun because, uh, I,I enjoyed it, you know, so I, hard isn't a neg always
negative and I think that is part of the disconnect when,you know, Donnie posted about working hard and everybody's
like, oh, another c e o telling people to work hard.
(30:38):
And I giggled cuz I wanted to reply.
I'm like, Nope.
He can defend this one all himself.
He's good.
and uh, By the way, the guy
Donnie Boivin (30:46):
did not come back and defend after I, you know, went at him.
Kevin Snow (30:50):
You know?
But just cuz you're working harddoesn't mean it's bad and you that.
So I think we need to make that shift cuz Donnieand I work hard, but we enjoy what we're doing.
Lori Saitz (31:02):
Yeah.
Well, again, it's work.
I think it comes, comes to semantics because I would,that word doesn't feel comfortable to me, so I might
use, like working diligently, working with intention.
It's,
Donnie Boivin (31:14):
I get, get that because I don't like the word goals, so I say targets, you know?
Yep.
Um, you know, same, same similar concept.
I just, I'm, I'm annoyed with the movement that's goingafter the people that are busting their ass and enjoying it.
and they're like, well, you're a workaholicor you are putting in too much time.
Not if I'm getting fulfillment from the activity.
Lori Saitz (31:37):
Right, right.
And integrating, cuz I know we all,well all agree on that balance thing.
Five.
Yes.
In integrating time with people,other people in your life who need.
Because it's very easy to say, I love what I'm doing in buildingmy business and to do it to, in, in excess, if you will.
(32:01):
Um, and ignore what's happening at home.
Donnie Boivin (32:04):
I know for a fact you were busting your ass, I mean, grindstone busting
your ass, and then you took a 30 day sabbatical.
Mm-hmm.
, you came back a different fucking person, which is awesome.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Yeah.
, talk to me about it.
What changed?
Lori Saitz (32:23):
I was doing all the things, like all the things.
I look at my calendar from the first halfof last year and I'm tired looking at it.
Just everything that was scheduled and I was burned out andhere I am teaching people how to use gratitude and meditation.
to stay calm and grounded no matter what's going on around them.
(32:46):
I was calm and grounded, but I was burned out, and that'snot, should not be part of the equation, . And so I
finally went, all right, well, I'm doing all the things.
I'm not seeing the success I'd like to see.
So what would happen if I juststopped doing all the fucking things?
What would happen then?
. So I just, and I had had several conversationswith other people who were doing that.
(33:09):
They were like, yeah, I'm burned out.
I'm taking a year off, or 30 days or whatever it was.
I'm like, oh, I'm gonna try that.
And so I did, and I went and I didn'tdo any work during those 30 days.
I took a 30 day road trip sabbatical with a 19 year old cat.
Um, if you, if you wanna hear more about that story,you can read my chapter in Love warriors, the, the
(33:30):
book Love Warriors, where I talk more about that.
But, um, I needed that time to decompressand the not working and spending time.
I, I wasn't spending days in meditation, but I was spending,some days I was playing, I was out having fun with friends.
I was visiting friends.
I was sitting on the beach while Iwas literally sitting on the beach.
(33:52):
Two of the biggest business deals,uh, to ever cross my computer came to.
and one of them is something that I'minvolved in now as a business partnership.
It's enormous because I wasn't pushing a rock up ahill every single day trying to make things happen.
(34:13):
And this is where it comes back to the workingwith intention and not just being busy.
What is it that, what are the actions to take that?
Give you the best results andsometimes, not, sometimes, all the time.
It requires stepping back.
There needs to be a period of stepping back.
(34:34):
I remember many years ago, a very, very successful businessfriend who was very successful in business said her father
told her that sometimes you have to take a step back.
When you open the refrigerator door,you're, you're leading in to get something.
But before you can lean in to get something, youhave to take two steps back to open the door.
Donnie Boivin (34:56):
I like it.
I mean, cuz you came back so renewed.
Uh, from, from that and I think that was a lot of it.
Um, but I do like the idea of opening the refrigerator door.
That's a really, really cool visual to, tobe able to look at your business that way.
Yeah.
Kevin Snow (35:12):
Well, and, and I think it's important for business owners in general to be able to look
at the actions that they're taking and, uh, havean objective evaluation of how effective they are.
You know, if a specific action is notworking for you, it's now just busy work.
and you need to replace it with some sort of action thatdoes work for you and gets you to the places you need to be.
(35:38):
And you know, if you are not doing that, then you're reallyjust, you know, you're getting yourself into that grind mindset
where it's like, well, I have to do these things because theseare the things that business owners are supposed to do well.
No, those are the business.
Those are the things that may work really well for Donnie,or they're the things that work well for me or for you.
(36:01):
They're not necessarily the things thatare right for that specific individual.
. Yes.
Lori Saitz (36:08):
And then the other piece of this that's really important is that I, it was taking time to recharge.
And what I realized on that sabbatical is thatI was never allowing myself time to recharge.
Donna, you go out and you're on your farm working.
Mm-hmm.
, that's your time to recharge and not be working at this business.
(36:29):
, right, right.
You're, you're still doing something,but that for you is a recharging time.
I was working from nine o'clock in the morningtill like 10 30 at night, and I would take an
hour to go to the gym, but that's not recharging.
That's still part of like my normal day.
And so we need to take time every day to recharge our batteriesso that when you come back in the morning or whenever you get
(36:52):
back in front of your computer, you're ready to go, not juststill burned out from what you didn't accomplish yesterday.
Donnie Boivin (36:58):
Yeah.
And, and just so you know, that working on afarm is hard work, by the way, . I, I hear you
I couldn't leave it.
I couldn't leave it, you know, but, but you know, I, forme, all this, I, I, I, I have so much respect for you
and I, and I truly re mean that because even that lastsegment of looking back and reflecting on your business,
(37:22):
so often people put their head down and just work.
. Right?
And, and if you just work without taking astep back and, and analyzing, is this working?
Am I doing the right things?
Uh, I think most people get busy because they actually don't knowwhat the next step or stage of their business should be, right?
And so that, that ability to step back however you do it, I don'tknow if I'd suggest everybody take 30 days off their business.
(37:50):
, but it worked for you, which is a beautiful thing.
Right.
You know?
Yeah.
But the, the ability to come back and lookat everything is just a cool perspective.
So I'll have, you know, I did try meditating for five minutes.
It didn't fucking work.
I was so squirrel brained.
Holy fucking.
I know it needs to go ongoing
Lori Saitz (38:09):
and, no, no.
I have another, I have something else foryou that I've recently gotten more into it.
Breath work.
What will you talk about?
I, I've been
Donnie Boivin (38:16):
trying buying box breathing.
Lori Saitz (38:19):
Nope.
Nope.
No, I got, I got somebody to introduce you to.
Donnie Boivin (38:22):
All right.
Bring them.
I, I'd love to talk to him.
Uh, I'm fascinated to learn more about all this stuff.
Andrew Huberman talks a lot about breath work, you know, sois Tom biu, you know, so I'm interested in all that stuff.
Well, Lori, thanks for doing this.
How do people find you?
Lori Saitz (38:37):
At my website, Zen rabbit.com is the best place to find me.
Donnie Boivin (38:42):
And what's the phenomenal podcast you
Lori Saitz (38:44):
have?
It's called fine is a four letter word.
Donnie Boivin (38:48):
Okay, go check it out.
She has some phenomenal conversations on,there's still one of the podcasts I listen
to, so thank you so much for doing this babe.
I really appreciate you having onand thanks for always being you.
Thanks for
Lori Saitz (39:00):
having me.
Donnie Boivin (39:02):
All right.
I gotta be honest, that went better than I expected.
Uh, I really, I mean, I knew I was picking afight with Lori, uh, going into it, and, uh,
I really loved how she challenged me on this.
Kevin Snow (39:17):
Well, and, and it was, I was, I was kind of expecting fireworks because you two
have been, uh, exchanging jabs via social media.
Not like directly calling each other out, butyou'd make a post and then she would reply with
another post that was countering what you said.
And so I was like, oh, this could get reallyinteresting, . I'm, I'm gonna sit back and enjoy.
(39:42):
So that, that was, that was a really fun conversation though.
And I, I loved a couple of the things thatshe brought up about how meditation isn.
Sitting in the lotus position humming to yourself,although I think you should try it maybe out in
your, with your goats and sitting up on one of the,uh, one of the boxes and see how that goes for you.
Yeah.
Between
Donnie Boivin (40:00):
400 pounds of dogs taking me out and goat choose me as a jungle gym.
Yeah, that's not gonna work.
Kevin Snow (40:06):
Um, they do yoga with goats, using 'em as a jungle jam.
So, yeah,
Donnie Boivin (40:09):
just cuz people are dumb and don't are okay getting shit on.
I mean, that, that's all there is to it,
. Kevin Snow: Um, but I, I love that whole idea.
That, you know, you don't have to meditate.
That's not how you meditate.
You can meditate anywhere.
Yeah.
And in any type of situation.
I thought that was really freaking
cool.
The, the.
(40:31):
I agree.
I mean, I love going on my morning walks.
I love having the distraction so that I can focus.
Uh, although I recently heard a podcastepisode, I wish I could give them credit.
I don't remember what the show I was talking to, but youknow, you should be able to go for a walk and not need a
distraction to just be with your thoughts type of things.
And I thought that's, Bullshit, fuck off.
(40:53):
But I do see the power of being able to quiet yourmind enough without the influence of something else.
I just haven't mastered that yet.
Well, I,
Kevin Snow (41:02):
I've liked the distraction idea because it kind of guides, it's like guided meditation.
It's kind of guiding where your thoughts need to go.
Uh, and you, you're, you're able to kind ofkeep yourself from going down the really bad.
over analytical rabbit holes, and that'swhat happens to me a lot of times.
If I don't have that distraction going on, I startthinking and my mind just goes somewhere and I'm
(41:27):
like, all right, now I'm having to overcome, you know,tell myself, all right, stop thinking those things.
That's not actually a thing.
And I'm now, I'm having those conversations with meas opposed to, uh, which is probably okay at times,
but as opposed to meditating and thinking about thethings that are actually helping me move forward.
Yeah.
So.
. Um, and, and that's what I found when I havelike a podcast on and I kind of will space out
(41:50):
is because it triggered me thinking about things.
I'm like, oh, what about this and that?
And then, then I, then I'm going through just lettingthe mind go, and then the podcast will pull me back out.
So I like the distraction.
I think it's beneficial for my brain chemistry.
Donnie Boivin (42:06):
No, I, I'm, I'm right there with you.
I'm only questioning it for myself.
Is.
, is there another gear?
Like, is it, you know, is there one more notch?
What would it take for me to get to a point of I wouldn'tneed the distraction, uh, to, to more, more drugs?
Maybe, maybe . So, but, but I, you know, it's the idea,could I go for a walk without having to listen to a podcast?
(42:34):
What would more, where would my mind go?
What would I discover about myself in those moments?
Is, is something.
I'm toying with the idea of going and playing with
Kevin Snow (42:45):
it.
So have you tried it?
Donnie Boivin (42:47):
Not yet.
Not yet.
Not yet.
You know, this is this, uh, part of it's cuzI just had that surgery, so I'm only walking
in my house versus out on the driveway.
So, uh, you know, I, I will in one of these near mornings, but,
Kevin Snow (43:04):
Bad, and you've had three inches of ice on your entire property the last few days.
So walking outside was just, you know, eight ounce, not smart.
Donnie Boivin (43:11):
Right, right, right.
So I'm
Kevin Snow (43:14):
curious, you, you, you would've had to put your, your wristband back on.
Yeah.
Fall
Donnie Boivin (43:17):
risk.
My fall risk , which I do have right there from the hospital.
Um, oh.
Um, but you know, so knowing that I'm doing this distraction, Inow have a form of meditation that I'm doing on a daily basis.
Um, I, I, you know, you said one of the greatest thingsthat you do is you do it, uh, when you're driving and you're
distraction when you're, when you know when you're driving.
One of the best times.
(43:38):
How are you gonna find meditation likethis on your world on a regular basis?
Cuz you don't do the morning walks like I do.
You don't drive every day.
Kevin Snow (43:48):
So I'm trying to work out on a daily basis and I, I think that is, One of the places
that I would disconnect and do meditation.
Uh, cause looking back when I would do the, and therewould usually be half hour, 45 minute workouts, you know,
my, I would be doing the exercise, but my mind wouldbe also be thinking about other stuff at the same time.
(44:13):
So it was, that was giving me the, you know, 30 45.
Shots of, of thinking.
Um, and it was because they were brokenup with, all right, now you do this thing.
You know, I, I think my mind's focused, well, not necessarilyfocused, but my mind could cycle through thoughts more.
(44:37):
And I could have multiple more little conversationswithin my head with myself, as opposed to, it
didn't let me go down that giant rabbit holewhen I'm not distracted by other things going on.
Yeah.
Where I'm now just into the, uh, you know, oh, what ifthis happens and, you know, and then this will happen,
and oh my God, this is, you know, the, all that type ofstuff, which I'm trying to stay away from as much as.
(45:02):
That's
Donnie Boivin (45:02):
smart.
I, I'm gonna try and implement more into, focused on a one ideal.
Yo, like, what, what's the next problem I'm trying to solve?
What's the next issue I'm trying to get past and see if Ican do more of a focused attention on a particular topic,
theme or the likes, and see what comes up from that.
(45:22):
So, so, um, but a great conversation.
Uh, I love hanging out with Rabbit.
She's just, she's good people.
Yep.
She's got a genuine heart.
Uh, she's got a ridiculous amount of knowledge in that head and.
And, and I'm excited to see where her journey takes us.
Where her journey takes her, I should say.
So, uh,
Kevin Snow (45:43):
and we're back to the universe providing her journey is gonna take us places,
Donnie Boivin (45:47):
right?
Well, you never know.
You never know.
So, but guys, if you got any value out of this, you know,we don't have any sponsors on the show other than us.
So do us a favor and please go leave us a review wherever.
Our listening to this, uh, it means the world to us.
And those reviews are huge in helping other people find the show.
(46:11):
Now, if you're on YouTube, please subscribe to the channel.
Comment below, you know, your kind oftakeaways, thoughts and questions on this.
And as always, guys, uh, make sure you're subscribed.
Love you minute.
See you.
Bye.
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