November 17, 2023 • 50 mins
Join us in this insightful episode as we dive into the world of business growth strategies with Stu Heinecke, a renowned Wall Street Journal cartoonist and author. Discover the transformative power of humor, personalized cartoons, and radical collaboration in scaling your business and building meaningful connections.
Show Notes:
- Introduction to Stu Heinecke - Get to know Stu Heinecke, a legendary Wall Street Journal cartoonist, author, and a master of using humor in business.
- The Role of Humor in Business - Explore how Stu uses personalized cartoons to create impactful marketing and networking strategies.
- Personalization in Marketing - Learn about the effectiveness of personalized cartoons in engaging clients, illustrated with examples like the Mark Cuban campaign.
- The Concept of Radical Collaboration - Stu shares his insights on the importance of collaboration in business growth, emphasizing the need for creating 'unfair advantages' and leveraging relationships.
- Innovative Contact Strategies - Discover unique strategies for re-engaging clients, such as humorous cards and emails, to break the ice and maintain client relationships.
- Stu's Books and Insights - Delve into Stu's books, including "How to Get a Meeting with Anyone," and learn how these resources can transform your approach to business growth.
- The Power of Networking - Host Donnie Boivin discusses the impact of networking and podcasting in building connections and growing a business.
- Stu's Advice on Business Growth - Gain valuable advice from Stu on scaling businesses, focusing on identifying and cultivating unfair advantages and the spirit of collaboration.
- Connecting with Stu Heinecke - Learn how to connect with Stu, access his resources, and benefit from his expertise.
- Closing Thoughts - Final reflections on the episode and the importance of humor and collaboration in business.
Keywords: Stu Heinecke, Business Growth, Humor in Business, Networking, Radical Collaboration, Personalized Marketing, Wall Street Journal Cartoonist, Business Strategy, Client Engagement, Unfair Advantage, Business Scaling, Networking Strategy, Business Podcast.
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Tune into our latest episode featuring Stu Heinecke, a Wall Street Journal cartoonist and author, as he shares groundbreaking strategies for business growth. Discover the power of humor, personalized marketing, and radical collaboration in this engaging and insightful conversation. Perfect for entrepreneurs and business professionals looking to scale their ventures and build lasting connections.
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Links
- Website - https://successchampionnetworking.com/
- YouTube Video - https://www.youtube.com/c/GrowthMode
- Blog - https://successchampionnetworking.com/blog/
- Facebook Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/SuccessChampion
Mentioned in this episode:
Success Champions Networking
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stu Heinecke (00:01):
I'm one of the Wall Street Journal cartoonists.
I use cartoons all the time because they're great devices.
They're, they're off almost always the best readand remembered parts of magazines and newspapers.
So people really pay attention to them.
I guess you could say they draw them in, butthey're really, really effective devices for Getting
anybody's attention and getting them to smile.
And if you do that, if you laugh, if they laugh,they're think about what laughter is and what humor is.
(00:25):
It's about truth being revealed in a twist.
You've got to get around people thatare doing the shit you want to be doing.
On the level and volume of what you want to be doing.
Go in and be the damn student.
I could learn every person in this room.
(00:47):
Think about how you talk about your business.
Yes, passion sells.
But you can't carry on a real conversation outside the passion.
You're gonna lose.
You're gonna lose.
So the whole point of all of this,is one, show up as you, fucking loud.
Two, get yourself in frickin roomsthat scare the shit out of you.
(01:12):
It's really about looking at those things that you knowwill move the business forward, and doing them anyways.
Thank you for allowing me to always show upas me, and thank you for showing up as you.
Donnie Boivin (01:25):
All right, this idea of weeds is got me fuddled, walk me through what the hell is a weed
Stu Heinecke (01:32):
strategy?
Hey, by the way, I just want to make sure you know, younoticed that I wore the, the, the, the right t shirt for it.
Chief weed officer.
Donnie Boivin (01:39):
Chief weed officer.
That's a, that's awesome.
That's
Stu Heinecke (01:43):
awesome.
So, so we're going to, we're going to talk about weed strategyand about, um, about how to grow your business and why that,
why would your business have anything to do with weeds?
And, um, and I think it might be helpful to tellsort of my origination story about that a little bit.
Does that make sense?
So I was driving down the Santa Monica freewaymany, many years ago, and I spotted this dandelion
(02:06):
growing from a crack in the, in the concrete median.
Well, see, I think it's like, well, anyway, if you thinkabout it, and first of all, that's something that we've
seen a million times before everybody in our lives,there, those weeds are growing out of cracks everywhere.
So, so that wasn't unusual, but I just noticed what I,what I noticed about it was that, you know, it had that.
Those happy yellow flowers and those seeds flying around.
(02:29):
It looked, it just looked like it was having a blast outthere in the middle of the freeway running its process.
And I just thought, that's incredible because, youknow, you might wonder, well, how did it get there?
And we know exactly how they get there.
They have seeds that fly around and theyprobe every possible opportunity to take root.
And so, um, you know, that's obvious, but if you think aboutother plants or trees There are no oak trees growing out of
(02:52):
cracks in the concrete median or rose bushes or petunias.
Most of them don't have that, well, let's just say, I mean,the, the, the dandelions have this unfair advantage in the
way that their seeds are, are made and how they, how theywork, so they don't just drop at their, at their roots, like.
Acorns and pine cones and everything else.
They fly around.
They, they've got an unfair advantage.
(03:14):
So I just wonder, well, what is it about?
And the other thing is, we all knowwhat it means to grow like a weed.
And I was just wondering, what is it about weedsthat makes them so special that, that they can
pull off these things that other plants can't?
And do they have a model?
Like do they, are they all doing the same thing?
Is there a unified model for growth?
And, and if there is, what is it?
(03:35):
And can we, can we apply it to our businesses?
And that set me on this long, long journey that, that culminatedin, in the, in the book, How to Grow Your Business Like a Weed.
And, and, um, what I discovered was they do have a model.
They're all doing the same thing.
They do it in different ways, which is really cool.
It's kind of how we do it in business.
(03:56):
Business is a very creative enterprise.
And, and so there are all kinds of expressions.
They're never the same.
Unless people are copying, I suppose, but they're never the same.
So same with weeds, but they're all doing the same thing.
They're all following this, this model that I think is actuallythe, probably a theory of everything about growing anything.
. Donnie Boivin (04:15):
So, I love this, you know, when you think about the Dandelion as a whole, you know, there's
this Dandelion that you could almost challenge, beatall possible odds to grow into most random places.
And you talk about this unfair advantage, right?
So, for, for us, You know, we run these B2Bnetworking groups, service based businesses.
(04:36):
We're bringing people in, you know, and there's, there's,you know, big competition, you know, all across the board.
And I've never really worried about competition,but I've recognized that they're there.
Um, you know, the biggest organization on theplanet's got 400, 000 members in it and has done
an amazing job at cultivating that community.
(04:57):
Um, some of the other competitors, um, charge a hell of a lotmore higher prices are doing more kind of private elite rooms.
We're caught somewhere in the middle of thosetwo types of companies, um, and out there.
So how do we as a company start thinkingabout what is our unfair advantage?
I mean, we've done a lot of things like we'revirtual, we don't allow MLMs, you know, and the
(05:19):
likes into the organization, but how would I goabout creating unfair advantage for myself or for our
Stu Heinecke (05:26):
companies?
Well, I mean, first I should explain that that model, how thisall fits together is that the weeds all do the same thing.
They're all.
And they also leverage a fierce mindset to thinkthat something without brains can, can have a
mindset, but watch what they do in your yard.
They have a very, I mean, they, they come right backthere, they're persistent and aggressive and resilient
(05:47):
and, and they're collaborative, natural collaborators.
So they have a definite mindset and they leverage that fiercemindset and unfair advantages against collective scale.
And they do it according to a process that's well,in their case, millions of years old, they've
been working at this process for a long time.
And so.
Um, what's interesting about their process is really it's theirevolution and it's just, it's just programmed into their DNA.
(06:09):
They all run the same process, um, togetherand that's what makes them so powerful.
That's what makes them grow like crazy.
So, so coming back to unfair advantages, I think one ofthe things that, that I see being your unfair advantage
is you, um, your business about is about networking.
So you have a network.
I mean, it is a network.
(06:29):
And so I would say that maybe yourbiggest advantage is, um, is the people.
That you have in those networks, would you agree?
But I would think that probably a lot of growth in yourbusiness comes, maybe it all comes from directly, comes
directly from the people that are part of the network.
Yeah.
We're
Donnie Boivin (06:49):
very much a word of mouth.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're definitely a word of mouth, uh, based company.
So, um, we, Are heavily dependent on getting the membersof our chapters to bring more people to the playground
because, um, they've know, and they've discoveredthe more people they bring to the playground, the
(07:11):
more opportunities they get for their own business.
So, and, and we constantly tell people, man, youwant to be sitting around people each week that
you would be proud to introduce to other people.
And you create this environment of a bunch of peoplethat are all going for it, and you want to be around
and are excited to tell other people about them.
(07:33):
That's kind of our biggest unfair advantage, I think.
Stu Heinecke (07:37):
So I think, and I don't know what you do, we're going to talk about it because I'm coaching you,
but I don't know quite what you do yet to cultivatethat, but the more you can cultivate it, the better.
The thing is, you wouldn't offer them, let's say,I had some sort of a cash incentive to do it.
That doesn't, that's the wrong, the wrong approach.
The right approach is they go inand they just get incredible value.
(07:59):
And they're just like, they can'twait to get to the next meeting.
And, and there, and really here's the bottom line.
They're growing because they're part of the network.
And when that happens, they're going to betelling anybody, they won't tell the competitors,
but they'll tell friends and colleagues.
You've got to join this thing because man, you wouldn'tbelieve what I'm using, what I'm learning there and it's
(08:21):
incredible and, and so, um, and I know you have a story,you have a backstory that because we've, we've spoken before
you have a backstory that, that I think probably helps,but I think it's, I think really, I would, I think one
of the, one of the big unfair advantages you have is thatyou have this giant engine of stories that We know they're
(08:42):
happening out there because they're part of your network.
So what are those stories?
What are people, what are peopleexperiencing because they're part of you?
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah, that would be, that would be huge.
. Another thing is you could even sort of, well, I don'tknow whether this is gamifying it or we'll use the word
gamify for now, but, but, um, does anyone have an award?
(09:05):
Right now at some sort of networking award, someonewho, I mean, is there, is there, is there such a thing?
I, you know
Donnie Boivin (09:12):
what?
I honestly don't have any idea.
I don't
Stu Heinecke (09:15):
think there is.
Um, I mean, well, certainly I don't know of one, but it wouldbe really cool to, uh, to, um, start like a competition,
uh, or well, an award, an annual award, let's say of.
How do we put it?
Cause I've not thought about it until right now, but, but just,you know, what are the effects of, of being a part of a network?
(09:38):
We all know we've heard the expression, just, you know, your,your net worth is your, is your network or something like that.
Your network is your net worth.
Yeah.
Um, You need a bet, you need a better one that you canown, but, but something along those lines, something that,
that has people saying, yeah, you know what, that's true.
Gosh, so much comes from my network.
And the more I build it, the more successful I am.
(10:00):
, Donnie Boivin: I like the idea of awards.
Um, what, what I don't know is what particularly weshould award for, um, you know, what, what, yeah.
What is that?
So, so if you think about it, thesepeople, um, we call them champions.
So the champions show up each week in a virtual one hour meeting.
(10:21):
In that meeting, they're going toget a chance to introduce themselves.
They're going to get some tremendous education.
There's going to be breakout rooms.
To where they can collaborate, interact, and network.
And ultimately they're going to give a ton of introductions tothe right people, the right opportunities in the right places.
So we're proactively creating anenvironment for them to grow their business.
(10:43):
So I don't want to create awards for.
Okay.
You gave an introduction, like, or something like that.
'cause that should be the natural question
of it.
I, yeah.
I, I think it's, I think it's the best stories.
Like what was the biggest result of one of the,uh, of, of an introduction that you received?
What was the biggest result of an introduction you gave?
I don't know, something like that.
(11:04):
Wouldn't those be cool?
I like that.
You know, because then you'd be going, okay, well, this is reallykind of, um, I mean, you know, I've written a couple of books.
One of them is about how to get a, one of themis called how to get a meeting with anyone.
And the thing that made, one of thethings that made that book so strong is.
Is gathering up these stories of what people weredoing really audacious things to, to get meetings.
(11:26):
And then like, what, what kind of response ratesthey were getting the highest response rate to
these contact campaigns we discovered is over 300%.
That means that three times as many peoplewho received the campaign actually responded.
That's crazy.
And, and the highest ROI is, is, is, um.
(11:46):
96, 500, 000 percent in other words, someone spent 28 buckson a, on a, a Facebook ad to reach the right buyer at Walmart.
And they did.
And it resulted in, it was a, it was a20 million result from a 28 Facebook.
So, um, so coming up with stories like that, that's,that's, I mean, that's what causes people to then
(12:08):
turn around and talk about the champion network.
I mean, I hope I got that right, but the champion network.
Success champion,
Donnie Boivin (12:14):
everybody calls it S E N for short.
Stu Heinecke (12:17):
Yeah.
Um, so, but I mean, that's what, that's what causes peopleto turn around and talk about it and get excited about
it because they're part, the whole, everyone in yournetwork is part of that process and part of that group.
I think that, that, those would beincredible in terms of cultivating, um.
I guess just really stronger and stronger brandfor the, for the network and, and fascination
(12:40):
and really just a lot of viral past long.
I mean, just having, having people talk about it and it's,you know, when you had those stories, it's incredible.
Yeah,
Donnie Boivin (12:53):
no kidding.
Um, I really love this idea, Stu.
Um, when you got those stories, wereyou then taking them to social media?
Uh, were you putting them in articles?
How are you guys using the stories to thenas a, as a marketing tool, if you will?
Stu Heinecke (13:07):
Well, for me, it shows, I often guess.
I guess on, on podcasts and, and interviews.
So for me, it's, I got to tell the way I tell thestory of how, how to get a meeting with anyone
is to give examples of how people are doing it.
So the way you would tell the story of why networksmake a difference in your business and why they're
accelerators to your success is by telling stories about.
(13:29):
What, how that actually happened out there.
Um, and so, right.
So that, that's, um, that, that should be spread allof them, all of, all of the above actually, but, but
Donnie Boivin (13:43):
also, I actually love that because
Stu Heinecke (13:46):
I'm sorry.
Well, so I was going to say, but the, the,the award could also then be generating.
Um, I mean, once you have, if you have an annual award,send a press release out and get the, get the business
press to start picking up on it so that they're also Helpingyou build your brand, really you're building your brand
because the people in, in, in the network are actuallygetting value and you're, you're grabbing stories of that.
(14:10):
You're starting, you're, you're sort of harvesting storiesfrom that to, um, to actually bring that point home.
So that anyone else, anyone who's part ofit says, wow, I've got to do more of this.
I got to buckle down and the people who aren'tare saying, wow, I'm going to be part of this.
Donnie Boivin (14:27):
Yeah, no, I love this and I love that for all the reasons talked about including,
you know, I get on a ton of podcasts like you areand people always ask us to explain what we do.
Wouldn't it be a cool way to tell one of our members story asa way to explaining, you know, what it is and how we do it.
(14:49):
I think that's just, that's just a killermove to get people to understand what we do.
Um, And it's a really cool concept, Stu.
I really appreciate this.
Um, and we're going to have fun with that though.
I want to talk a little bit to you about, youknow, how you get your meetings with anyone.
Cause I think, you know, now that we've, we've said it a coupleof times, people are gonna like, wait, what is Stu talking about?
(15:12):
How do you get a meeting with anyone?
You know, explain them a little bit about your background.
Um, and for those who haven't read his bio,you need to know Stu is a hell of a cartoonist.
And I am particularly, um, want to,uh, hear about the guy you mentored.
Um, with your cartoonist as you explain,you know, how to get a meeting with anybody.
(15:32):
Yeah, I have,
Stu Heinecke (15:32):
I have one of the weirdest background.
Well, it's a great background, but it's a, it's an unusual one.
So I studied marketing in college andthat's, that's my degree is in marketing.
Um, but I loved cartooning and,and, uh, I grew up, let's say, um.
Well, sneaking playboy, my brothers and Iwould sneak playboys out of my father's dresser
drawers and that's where my career started.
(15:53):
We would,
Donnie Boivin (15:53):
uh, wait, we're still talking about the kind of
Stu Heinecke (15:55):
cartooning career or because, because I would, you know, we'd know, of course we read the articles in the.
That was a big joke about Playboy.
Right.
. But, but I, you know, I was, I was looking at the, uh,at the cartoons and they were, they were extraordinary.
They were really, really good cartoons,great cartoonists in the magazine.
Um, and I was wondering, who are these guys?
(16:16):
I mean, I was 10 then.
It's like, who are these guys?
How do they do this?
And, and so cartooning and always just,
Donnie Boivin (16:20):
who's the only guy that goes to Playboy and looks for the cartoons?
I mean,
Well,
Stu Heinecke (16:25):
I haven't finished the story.
Cause, uh, well, I'll tell you why in a second, but, but Imean, the cartoonists were just saying, God, who are these guys?
How did they do this?
And, and then fast forward, uh, about a dozen years, uh,or a little more than that, but, and suddenly Gahan Wilson
and Eldon Didini, uh, the, the two prime cartoonists in,in, in Playboy were now part of my advertising group.
(16:51):
And, um, and, and I started pulling in others because I wantedto make, I wanted to work with them, but I was figuring,
well, I, my, my innovation was to create direct mail campaignsfor, for publisher, magazine publishers for subscriptions.
Um, and my innovation was to include this or use thispersonalized cartoon on the outer envelope, or the
(17:14):
front panel of whatever it was, a mailer or whatever.
Um, and.
And we really got it down.
And the thing is, I didn't want to just offer my cartooning.
I wanted to offer a whole stable of cartoonists, like the bestcartoonists in the world, as part of my stable of cartoonists.
So, so that my clients could pick anyone.
They could pick Gahan Wilson.
They could pick the Elda Didini.
But then they also, I also started pullingin cartoonists from the New Yorker.
(17:37):
So, uh, um, Leo Collum and ArnieLevin and Bob Mankoff and others.
They're just the best cartoonists in the world.
And, and the mentoring that you justmentioned came, I was mentored by them.
So I was, you know, I'm working with them.
I'm making the money and bringing in projects, but they'reteaching me a whole lot about my, my cartooning improved.
I don't know, a thousand percent because I'm hanging outwith these people and, and they're, they're just brilliant.
(18:01):
They're just incredible at it.
And, and they taught me how to.
Really how to be one of the top cartoonists.
And so, um, that led to a bunch of things.
I mean, I'm one of the Wall Street Journal cartoonists.
I use cartoons all the time because they're great devices.
They're, they're off almost always the best readand remembered parts of magazines and newspapers.
So people really pay attention to them.
(18:21):
I guess you could say they draw them in, butthey're really, really effective devices for Getting
anybody's attention and getting them to smile.
And if you do that, if you laugh, if they laugh,they're think about what laughter is and what humor is.
It's about truth being revealed in a twist.
So, so that's that.
And, and that led to, you know, I, I've sentthese out to, I mean, just to reach the people
(18:43):
I needed to reach in the magazine business.
These were.
These were VPs of circulation and, and, and consumer marketing.
And what I needed to do is reach about 24 people.
That was it.
And if I did that, I had full penetration ofthe, of the, of the publishing industry, and so
I put together this little campaign, send it out.
It was a print of a cartoon, each cartoon abouteach recipient, um, with a note saying, this
(19:08):
is the device I just used to beat the controls.
In other words, set new response recordsfor Rolling Stone and Bon Appetit.
Those were my first two assignments.
Um, well, I think we should, I think we should talk.
I think we should put this to the test for your titles.
And I got, I was just curious.
You know what you might think I would have gotten.
What do you suppose I got for a response to a campaign like that?
(19:30):
Um, well,
Donnie Boivin (19:32):
knowing that it's a prime target and, uh, a prime audience and you come with an ROI proposal.
I know when I used to do that with direct mail and wecould get, you know, upwards of an 80, 90 percent response.
Uh, we could get a high response if we knew the exacttarget and the exact message we need to put in there.
Stu Heinecke (19:49):
Yeah, well, you're very, very close.
A hundred percent, all of them responded, all ofthem agreed to meet, all of them became clients.
So that was a hundred percent meetingrate, a hundred percent conversion rate.
And, um, um, it really just, it, itstarted and launched my business.
It was worth millions of dollars andit was one campaign to 24 people.
And so that set me on this.
(20:10):
Um, journey to like, first of all, indirect response, right?
I'm creating those big direct mail campaigns.
Everybody in direct response was saying, uh, 100percent response rates are absolutely impossible.
And, um, isn't that interesting?
Because we both, we both have haddifferent experiences than that.
But, but it turned out.
Donnie Boivin (20:33):
I mean, just so we're, we're, we're telling a very similar story and I'll explain mine that I'll get back to.
But when I sold commercial printing, I diddirect response, you know, direct mail.
And what we did is we partnered with the YMCAacross the US, you know, entire all the US.
And what happened is when somebody toured a YMCAfacility, they were asked very particular questions on
(20:55):
the tour of what things that were they interested inand what, you know, things were they really enjoyed.
When they left.
The person who did the walkthrough sat down andtyped out all the responses in a little form.
We created for them that basically put together a drop down menu.
They would then that information be sent to usand we would send off a customized direct mail
(21:17):
piece saying, Hey, thanks for touring to YMCA.
We know you like pool area, the gym area, youknow, it was customized 100 percent for them.
They had an 80 percent response rate of peoplebringing those back in and becoming a member, becoming
a member of the YMCA because of the detail of it.
So that's how we were able to do it.
It's very similar.
Captive audience, captive message, you know, uh, it works really,
Stu Heinecke (21:40):
really well.
Tony, that's, that's incredible.
That's really brilliant marketing.
And, and, um, yeah, that, that's, that's an incredible story,
Donnie Boivin (21:49):
right?
Yeah.
You know, but that's.
The, the point is, you know, with the way you guyswere doing direct mail to get in there, it's insane.
I had a young kid once upon a time want to be on one ofmy podcasts and he knew he didn't have a very big story.
They knew he hadn't done one thing.
He lived a cool life and he wanted to beon my podcast because he loved the show.
(22:10):
The dude drew my caricature and sent it in and said,I don't have much of a life and story to do it.
I love your show.
I would love to be a guest.
Nobody else had ever done a caricature of me.
I instantly reached out, brought the kid on, you know,uh, we talked about him being a blacksmith and some other
things, but it was just a cool way to break through the mold.
(22:31):
And that's what I'm fascinated about you and yourstory about how you were able to leverage all this.
So I'll let you continue on your story, but,um, uh, It's, it's, it's so fascinating to me.
Well,
Stu Heinecke (22:42):
yeah, I mean, I just, I just ended up, I'll, I'll shorten it up, uh, that, that I ended up getting
really curious about what, what's, I mean, like I thought,aren't I cool, I have the secret weapon, like the cartoons.
I can get through to anyone.
I was getting real, I was reaching presidents, primeministers, celebrities, and countless CEOs, really seat level.
People and top decision makers.
(23:03):
It's like I could meet anyone.
And so then, then I got really curious.
What's everyone else doing?
How are they doing it?
And God, there's a whole, there's a whole shadowform of marketing out there that didn't have a name.
When I start, when I, when I wrote my book, how to geta meeting with anyone, I called it contact marketing.
And, and so, but there's this wholeshadow form of marketing out there that.
(23:24):
Is getting response rates as high asa hundred percent, sometimes beyond.
And that's, that's when people startsaying, Hey, look at this thing that I got.
Look at, I just want to show youthis thing that I got from this guy.
And, and they go, that's incredible where I won't let mewrite down the number because I want, I want to call them up.
I want to, I want to join in as well.
And so I can, I know we're, um, I know we're audio,but if your audience is also viewing this, I can
(23:50):
show you what one of the contact devices look like.
Oh, go ahead and show it.
Donnie Boivin (23:55):
I mean, we'll put a picture of it in the show notes too.
Okay, cool.
Um, so,
Stu Heinecke (23:59):
so they can get it.
Well, so that, that same cartoon, I was saying that Isent an eight by 10 print of a cartoon with a note to the,
all the, the, um, circulation folks at the publishers.
And that, that has evolved into this.
This is a, this is a big board.
I have to go way back.
So it's, it's an 18 by 24 inch quarterinch thick, thick foam core board.
(24:24):
Um, cartoon on the front, always, always about therecipient and, and messaging and branding on the back.
Um, and I said, I sent this cartoon, you'll have to describe it.
It's two women having coffee.
And 1 of them is explaining to her friend, I'mgoing to actually have to put a name in it.
So the 1 that I sent to Mark Cuban, um, she'ssaying Mark Cuban says you can tell a lot about
(24:47):
a person just by looking at their Mavs tickets.
I tend to agree.
And of course, Mark does too, because he put it up inhis, in his office and it's, and that happens a lot.
They don't throw them, nobody throws these away.
So, um, so they're just great devicesfor getting, getting meetings.
I'm going to, you know, you asked that question.
Like, where did you, you got your whole, when I got mywhole career started by sneaking playboys out of our, by
(25:12):
the dresser doors, um, and, and you were telling me, youonly, you didn't, you didn't look at the pictures, but I
did my, like the most important meeting I ever had in mylife was meeting my wife, who is a, a penthouse cover model.
So I did pay attention, but it just ended up that way.
Donnie Boivin (25:33):
That's awesome.
That's awesome.
You know, I'm being a traditional sales guy, man.
I've done a lot of things to get in the doors of twoto different companies to get conversation started.
You know, um, I've sent flowers and I've sent bottlesof liquor and, you know, I've done all kinds of things.
I wish I would have learned about you a long timeago because I've been drawing since I was a kid.
(25:57):
Um, and you know, lettered and art in highschool and drawing has always been my thing.
I'm never painting or anything because I just never got into it.
Um, I.
I almost want to start now, like start doing my own cartoonsand sending them off to these key conversations and the
likes that I need to get into just to have some fun.
Cause like there's some massive podcasts and things that I'dlove to be a guest on and what a cool way to reach out to them
(26:23):
to say, Hey, I'd love to be a guest on a show to tell my story.
Yeah.
Stu Heinecke (26:26):
You know, I'll tell you what's really good about that is, um, of course,
I don't know what your cartoons look like.
I don't, maybe you don't either yet.
But, but whatever they look
Donnie Boivin (26:34):
like, I've really never done the whole cartoon side of things.
So, so that'd be a whole new venture for me.
Stu Heinecke (26:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, well, I'm just going to say though, that, um, if youdid it and it, maybe it came out funky cause we, you know, I
don't know what it will turn out like it, it takes practice.
So it doesn't matter what's really, what'sreally going on is it's very humanizing.
I mean, it makes you, it creates this human to human connection.
This guy sat down and drew me this cartoon.
This is really cool.
(27:00):
It's about my podcast.
And I really appreciate, they just appreciate that.
And it, you know, it just, just like the kid you mentioneda moment ago, who sent you the, the, the caricature.
It, it just that, that, um, that effort that, that he tookstands out, makes him stand out, makes him a human being.
Donnie Boivin (27:18):
Now, how do you come up with the creative sayings like, you know, Mark Cuban can judge people by, or.
Tell personality by their map ticket type thing.
Where do you come up with thoseconcepts and ideas and things like that?
Oh
Stu Heinecke (27:32):
man, it's one of the most, I think it's one of the most challenging things that I get to do and they don't,
they don't just pop out, but I don't know, they're justthese funny things that happen and, um, and you, or you might
overhear someone saying something and think, okay, that's it.
That's a, that's a cartoon right there.
And, um, I was in the grocery store.
(27:53):
Uh, a while ago, and I was, I was behindthis, this woman at the deli counter.
She was, she was being helped.
I was waiting.
And, um, and so the, the deli workers actually sliced the meat.
She brought it over to the, to this woman.
And she said, would you like to taste it?
And he said, she says, I don't care what it tastes like.
I don't care what it tastes like.
It's for my husband.
I just thought.
(28:13):
Okay, so I asked, I had them pose for me, but soyou might overhear something, um, or I don't know.
I mean, just, um.
I don't know.
They just, a lot of times these ideas pop and pop to mind.
(28:36):
You just have to wait for them to pop into your head, I guess.
Or you just sit.
There's another method, which is just to sit downand say, damn it, I'm going to come up with one.
And so you're right and right and rightuntil all of a sudden, boom, there it is.
So that, that may work as well.
Um, but there it's the toughestpart because think about what it is.
This is pure concept.
It's, it's, it's pure insight.
(28:57):
When, when someone, when love, when someone laughs,when we laugh at something, we're always saying,
I mean, like before we can even stop laughing.
We're saying, Oh my God, it's so true.
Or that's so true.
We hear that words come out of our mouths all the time.
And so, so the, the, um, the caption really is, it's the idea.
It's the whole idea is what everythingis centered on for the, for the cartoon.
(29:21):
So.
You've got to, I guess you either have to wait forthose ideas to pop into mind or push it, um, or
draw something and maybe write, maybe write it.
Sometimes some cartoonists do it that way.
They'll draw something, just elements that don't fittogether, the non sequiturs and, and then they'll,
they'll write and write until, okay, there it is.
That's, that's the cartoon.
(29:41):
Does that make sense?
Donnie Boivin (29:43):
Yeah, it does.
It does.
It's completely fascinating because, you know, when I thinkabout drawing for me, I'm a free form, you know, draw.
I don't usually, it's a lot of times I don't evennecessarily have an idea of what I'm drawing in place.
It metamorphs into something, you know, um, from adoodle or something else will create an entire landscape.
So like on my desktop right now, my whole desk is covered indoodles, um, that started for, uh, for a freaking, uh, Little
(30:08):
mosaic I was doing that turned into a plant that turned into acomplete office space that turned into a complete office space.
It's being ripped in half by an axe.
Right?
So, um, it's pretty insane where it continues to evolve.
So your idea of either finding the statementout in the out in the wild, if you will.
Or just start drawing and then write to thedrawing makes that works for my mindset and
(30:32):
how I approach drawing in the first place.
So, um, that, that could be a lot of, a lot of fun.
I had a idea once upon a time to create,so I have my goat farm where we got.
Goats, chicken, ducks, and geese on there had the idea to starta goat cartoon with a play off the words of greatest of all time.
And actually that I have goats, so thismight be my incentive to, to do just that.
(30:56):
So, uh, I don't think that's a great idea.
Stu Heinecke (31:00):
I think it's a great idea.
You know, just further to your question, you know,you might also think in terms of how can I take,
maybe, maybe one is how do I take an expression to it?
Like where, where does that make the most, or where does thatcome to this intersection with just complete, Ridiculousness.
So, so I have one where we're looking down sort of a fly'sfly's eye view of in an office, um, in a meeting room and
(31:28):
there are people seated around the table and the guy leadingthe meeting has his finger on a, on the key of a tape player.
On the, on the table, um, and there's one, one fellowleft standing, and he's looking rather sheepish,
and he's saying, he's saying, sorry, Bob, the musicstopped, you didn't find a chair, you're fired.
So musical chairs, I mean, we, we play musical chairsthroughout life all the time, and so it does actually
(31:53):
make sense, but it's carried to its ridiculous,to its ridiculous conclusion if, if people in a
meeting, if the boss says, all right, everyone get up.
I'm going to play this music becauseone of you is going to get fired.
Um, or I had another one that I did sort of another HR themewhere there's where the HR guys is talking to a ventriloquist
(32:18):
and his dummy and, and, uh, and he's saying, we're going tohave to let one of you go, and that would be interesting.
But just sort of carrying it to the point of.
Ridiculousness suddenly creates this, this insight.
It's just kind of a cool thing.
Cool process.
I don't really start with, okay, what's theinsight that I want to impart necessarily?
(32:38):
It's just, I don't know.
I'm thinking of what, what's funny.
I don't know.
Just what funny things can, what wordplay can I play with?
And, and, and, um, and suddenly if something pops up as funny.
You'll find that it always has some element of truth revealed.
That's what, that's what they're actually all about.
So do you
Donnie Boivin (32:58):
go down a path of like, uh, I want to teach something or may bring awareness to something?
And start your concept there or, or, or isit more you just organically let everything
Stu Heinecke (33:14):
flow?
I want, well, it depends if it's for the journal then,and it's just for, it's not going to be personalized then.
And yeah, I'm, I'm looking, I don't know.
I'm just looking for funny ideas.
And when they.
When they popped into mind, then I just give a little bitof thought like I now I can categorize and say, okay, cool,
because what that'll do is it'll, it'll have this message.
(33:34):
I can see it right away.
Um, but the other one, if I, if it's for, if it's for,for campaigns, the cartoon I held up just a moment ago of
the two women having coffee, um, I personalized it with.
With Mark Cuban's information and he sells Mavs tickets,but other people, if you were, that's a great cartoon
for reaching out to people and connecting with them.
So if I was reaching out to, I don't know, people thatare pool contractors, then, you know, and one of them
(34:00):
was Bob Smith, then she'd be saying in the caption thatI'd sent to Bob, she'd be saying, Bob Smith says you can
tell a lot about a person just by looking at their pool.
I tend to agree.
And of course Bob would totally agree with that.
So we'd be going, Oh my God, that's so cool.
That's hilarious.
If I was sending it to roofers, it would be, uh, so and so saysyou can tell a lot about a person just by looking at their roof.
(34:20):
I tend to agree.
So I'm, I'm playing, or if it's a salesteam, it's looking at their pipeline.
So, um, yeah, there are these, these certainelements that have to be part of that.
There were their, their data insertion points.
Who are they?
What, what's their names and, and what do they door what do they sell ends up being in the caption.
And that makes it very, very relevant.
Donnie Boivin (34:42):
Have you ever done it from a, like a teaching aspect, like you're trying to teach a concept and then use the
cartoons along that line because I'm thinking about my content.
A lot of my content is centered around teachinghow to network at the level that we network,
um, you know, uh, is there a way that you've.
Taught in that, that way by using cartoons?
Stu Heinecke (35:03):
Um, I sort of, I mean, if I get, if I, if I keynote, if I give speeches, then I'll,
I'll, and we're, and I'm using slides, I usuallydo, then there are cartoons to make those points.
Um, and then in my, well, in one of my books, in, in how to geta meeting with anyone at each chapter started with a cartoon.
So I, I suppose in that way, yes, but I haven't usedit as, let's say, a training, a training device.
(35:29):
I know you do training, so that that makes a lot of sense.
Actually, the point is, you know, it's just it's drawing up.
Literally, it's drawing out a point of agreement.
So everyone says they're laughing to go.
Huh?
But, you know, that's really true.
Yes, I agree.
And and so it's a great way to do that.
And, and.
So make, make this point.
That's like, no one can argue with it.
(35:49):
Then they all get it.
If they get the cartoon, they're also getting the point.
Donnie Boivin (35:54):
Yeah, I'm already in my head of all the funny things that we could play off of because there's
a lot of people that network really, really badly.
Um, and doing cartoons of bad networking, uh, could be funny.
And it would also teach the point of, you shouldn'tdo this thing, you know, like, The guys that go out
and do nothing but collect all the business cards.
(36:16):
I don't know how to put that all together.
You know, but they get home, they put the cards ontheir desk, and then they never do anything with them.
Or the guys that do nothing but walk up and start pitching you.
As soon as they see you, you're like, Oh, let mesell you whatever widgets or crap they're into.
So there's a lot of things that you could play off of.
Um.
That that's going to be a fun project for me to tackle.
And I can already hear all my advisors and coaches going,God, don't give him something else he can get creative on.
(36:42):
Oh, cause, um, I'm a guy that thinks Canva is thegreatest invention, uh, that's ever hit this world.
Um, uh, Canva is just an amazing program becauseit allows me to be creative and productive
at the same time with a lot of cool things.
Stu Heinecke (36:57):
That's cool.
My favorite is Photoshop.
So I get to, I get to paint the cartoons and boom,all of a sudden I have something really cool.
Hey, would you like to see another, another form of that?
Let me just, I, you know, I'm pretty excited.
So, so, you know, again, I'm usingcartoons to, to move something along.
So, um, I'm going to show you 1 card I'm doing.
(37:18):
We're also doing cards, which is a newthing for us, but cards as contact devices.
And so I have this 1 cartoon that I use.
Um, when, when someone, when someone's not callingme back, I, you know, and I'm like, what's going on?
Why are they not?
I mean, cause this has now gone, gone on too long.
Well, I don't know what's going on, but we really need toget in touch and I can't get this person back on the phone.
(37:42):
So, um, I might send them this cartoon.
I'm going to show it to you, but I'm going to fill your name in.
So, so, uh, if you were the guy that was, that was, um,not calling me back, I'd send you this card and, and it's
saying, um, I think you can see there's a guy in the desert.
By a pay phone.
Oh, he's on a pay phone.
Maybe Route 66 somewhere.
And he's saying, Hi, Donnie.
It's me again.
Listen, I don't know if you've been checkingyour voicemail all last week, but I'm still
(38:04):
here at the same number waiting for your call.
This guy's, this guy's been waiting for aweek or two waiting for you to call back.
And it gets, the thing is, it just, it breaks the ice.
It just causes people to go, Oh gosh, it's a pattern interrupt.
So they just, they go, Oh my God, I got to call.
I got to call Donnie back.
I mean, I can't, I can't leave this any longer.
(38:24):
This is funny.
Um, and it's also humanizing.
I think that's a theme everywhere.
Another one that I use when, when there'sa stalled, um, proposal is this one.
So if, if I had sent you a proposal and, and you, andyou weren't responding, I might send you this card.
So it's this guy cradling the phone on his shoulder andhe's going through some papers and he's saying, Hey,
(38:45):
Donnie, listen, I got your proposal and I like, I'm sorry.
Hey Don, we got your proposal and welike everything except having to pay you.
So I think that's also, that's, you know, that's a problem withevery proposal, but if I send that with a note inside that just
says, Hey, Donnie, um, sorry, it didn't work out this time.
Maybe next time.
(39:05):
I usually, I would say about 50 percent of the time it causespeople to call back and say, whoa, whoa, wait a minute.
No, I, I didn't mean to, to ignore you.
I was just waiting for this one guy to get back tome on a budget question, but yes, let's do this.
You know, you get, you get things like that and youneed to get that prompted or else it doesn't happen.
Yeah, dude, I
Donnie Boivin (39:25):
love that.
I mean, I, I, I've taught for a number of years, likemy favorite phrase when you're getting ghosted and not
gonna reply is just send an email with the subject line.
Have you been eaten by an alligator?
And all we were going for is just the ridiculousness of it.
And we get a high response rate of people replying back.
No, just been busy.
You've been swamped.
Another one version we did was we give them three options is one.
(39:49):
The first option was we talked, we haven't heard from you.
Uh, number one, you've been busy.
You haven't been able to get back to it.
No big deal.
You're waiting to get back to us at a later point.
Number two, you've won the lottery, you've now sailedoff and live on an island by yourself, and life is
good and you're never going to do business ever again.
Or three, you decided we weren't a good fitand you just didn't want to hurt my feelings.
(40:12):
Just reply back with one, two, or three.
Right.
So I love your step because you know, thatputs it in the email, but you're putting them
a tangible piece of property in their hand.
That's absolutely brilliant.
Yeah.
I like
Stu Heinecke (40:25):
the idea of putting something in their hands because they don't get that very often.
So even that is a pattern interrupt.
Yeah.
That's true.
Yeah.
Donnie Boivin (40:33):
Yeah, no, that's really, really smart.
Stu Heinecke (40:35):
I think we think a lot alike, actually.
Donnie Boivin (40:40):
I think you're right.
It's the creative side of things.
You know, um, uh, I think creatives justtend to think differently in general.
Um, and it's a pretty wicked combination.
When you take a creative that also has a vision and driven,um, you know, they're going to make some things happen just.
(41:01):
By thinking outside of the box on a regular basis.
Yeah, yeah.
It's been really, really fun getting to know you.
I'm just curious, you know, you'vebuilt some pretty successful businesses.
What do you think is like the, the, the biggest thingpeople Need to have in mind or do to scale a business.
(41:22):
What is there, is there a thought processyou've carried with you along the way?
Is there a mechanics behind it you've done?
What's been that big thing for you tobuild your business to the level you have?
That's
Stu Heinecke (41:32):
a good question.
I, you know, I, I think I'm going to just bring itback to, to weed strategy because the weeds that
they just, they've completely crystallized it for me.
Mixed metaphors, but they've really just made itvery, very clear to me that we need unfair advantages.
No business will stay in business without them.
So what are yours and, and what kinds of unfairadvantage, new unfair advantages can you cultivate?
(41:53):
I have some, I mean, I'm a, I'm a wall street journal cartoonist.
That's been a great unfair advantage in certain circumstances.
Um, it causes when I'm, when my cartoons appear there,then they reach a million or a couple million readers.
So that's a great.
Great thing.
I have a couple of books out and one of them, I think seems likeit's, it's going to be kind of a classic in, in the sales arena.
(42:16):
It was, it was named one of the top 64.
Well, you know, it's how to get a meeting with anyone, butit was named one of the top 60 sales books of all time.
And we're, we're about to, we're now we're,we're, um, we're working on updating it.
So we'll have a new edition of it coming up in about a year.
Uh, it just seems to keep going and going.
So that's a great unfair advantage.
And, um, Yeah, I mean, I've got a bunch of them, but those, Iguess the other one is just the collaborations that I'm doing.
(42:43):
So there, and that's a different category.
So it's unfair advantages.
And then what, like, who can you collaborate with?
And I think weeds would ask us if they could talk to us, they'dsay, they wouldn't ask us, they'd say, you need to, if you
want to grow, you need to team up with the smartest people, youknow, as fast as you can, and, and come up with collaborations.
(43:04):
And I'm doing that.
In fact, I think you and I might end up doing one.
I'd love to do one with you.
I mean, one of the things we're doing is I, I, I'mteaming up with some of the authors I know and other,
just very, some of the most impressive people I know.
And we're putting together growth, growth summits,um, in bucket list locations around the world.
And, and that's going to be a blast.
That's just going to be an absolute blast.
(43:26):
In the meantime, though, we expose each other to our audiences.
So.
Each of us gets a big benefit from it andwe're combining what, what our specialties are.
Mine was weed strategy and growth growthstrategy based according to weeds.
Um, and then if, um, if I'm teaming up with, let'ssay Mark Hunter is one of the top sales authors, then,
um, it's, you know, sales is, is fuel for growth.
(43:49):
These things are going to mix really, really well.
So, so I, so it's also then justthe spirit of radical collaboration.
How can I collaborate with, with as many people as possibleto expand my market, to expand my, my brand and to expand my
opportunities, to expand the, just the, the, the people that theamount of people that I'm, I'm gaining access to and, and, and,
(44:13):
and creating these really interesting, um, uh, combinations.
You know, there's a guy, I don't know if youknow, Daniel Disney, um, Daniel is a pig.
He's a big, uh, influencer on, on LinkedIn.
Um, I think he has a million followers on LinkedIn.
That's a pretty big following on LinkedIn.
Um, and he once asked me, um, Hey, would you ever doa, a course on, on creating cartoons or just, you know,
(44:38):
cartooning and, and, but, but, you know, Apply it to sales.
Do you offer a course like that?
I didn't, but I'm just thinking who better to team up withto do a course on cartooning for sales than Daniel Disney?
I can think about his last name for a while.
Right.
He'd be amazing.
(44:58):
He'd just be amazing.
Absolutely.
So we've got to find those really golden opportunitiesfor, for these, these great collaborations.
And when you do that.
Everything just changes.
It just changes.
So unfair advantages and radical collaboration.
I mean, even with your clients, find ways.
We just discussed it with, with your networking company, butbecause you're, because the networkers are your clients and
(45:22):
you're finding ways to collaborate with all of them really.
So, so that, I mean, just.
The spirit of radical collaboration is, is key as well.
We don't do it on our own.
Donnie Boivin (45:32):
Yeah.
And collaboration is how I've builteverything if I were completely honest.
I mean, you know, sure I've shown up and putmy brand out there on a regular basis, but it's
always been the relationships that I've built.
You know, podcasting has been an amazing tool to, toMeet so many fascinating people and, you know, because
(45:53):
of podcasting, I've gotten into the conversations I damnnear wouldn't have dreamed of getting into, you know,
like, in all honesty, I'm sitting across from a, youknow, freaking legendary freaking cartoonist right now.
You know, I mean, that's, that's a huge moment for me.
You know, to have those type of moments becauseyeah, and it's all because of a podcast, right?
(46:13):
So, so you find unique ways to get in some amazing conversations.
And I think that's the foundation for anybody to, to go.
And I love the phrase, you know, uh, radicalcollaboration because you almost have to
get to a mindset of no is not an answer.
You know, there, because sometimes when you get incollaboration conversations, at least I'll speak for myself,
(46:37):
you get to that place of, crap, can we afford that yet?
Can we do this yet?
You know, what are all those pieces and you haveto learn to turn off the noise and go, okay, let's
just go with it and see what the hell happens.
Um, and, and that ability to let go in the momenthas produced some pretty spectacular things.
You know, for us, so, uh, you should totallycoin that phrase radical collaboration if you
(46:59):
haven't, um, because it's a powerful statement.
Yeah.
Stu Heinecke (47:03):
more we think in those, in those ways, the more we're going to grow and it's, it's, it's like magic.
Yeah.
100%.
Donnie Boivin (47:09):
100%.
Well, Stu, we could do this all day long.
I could obviously sit here and continueto geek out with you for hours.
Um, and I think we keep everybody in retain,but we try and keep these under an hour.
So how do people find you?
How do they reach out?
Um, how do they connect with you?
Stu Heinecke (47:25):
Well, there are a couple of ways.
Um, if you have the spelling of aname, you can go to my author site.
So that's Stu Heinick dot com S T U H E I N E C K E.
Um, and, and, and I'd love to have you.
Go there.
And if you sign up to be on my list, then you get thefirst two chapters of how to get a meeting with anyone.
I'm sorry, of, of how to grow your business like a weed for free.
(47:47):
Love to have you do that.
You can connect with me on LinkedIn.
Um, and, uh, and, and just mentionedthat, that you heard me on Donnie's show.
That would be great.
I'd be, I'd be very appreciative of that.
Um, and if you want, if you're curious about someof those contact devices, come to cartoon link.
com and check out the cards.
It's awesome.
Donnie Boivin (48:07):
That's awesome.
Well guys, this was a tremendous value for me.
I love the hell out of hanging out with you, Stu.
Listeners, if you guys get any value out of this whatsoever,do me a favor and take a screenshot of this episode, wherever
you're listening to, whatever device you're on, and goto social media and post out there that you've listened
to this message, this Episode tag me and stew in it.
(48:27):
If I could find that tag, I will come commenton it, try and give you some love on that.
But you taking those screenshots and putting it out therejust lets us know that this is the content you want to keep,
continue to, uh, promote and put out there in the marketplace.
So as always guys, love you, man.
See you.
Bye.
I'm one of the Wall Street Journal cartoonists.
I use cartoons all the time because they're great devices.
They're, they're off almost always the best readand remembered parts of magazines and newspapers.
So people really pay attention to them.
I guess you could say they draw them in, butthey're really, really effective devices for Getting
anybody's attention and getting them to smile.
And if you do that, if you laugh, if they laugh,they're think about what laughter is and what humor is.
(00:25):
It's about truth being revealed in a twist.
You've got to get around people thatare doing the shit you want to be doing.
On the level and volume of what you want to be doing.
Go in and be the damn student.
I could learn every person in this room.
(00:47):
Think about how you talk about your business.
Yes, passion sells.
But you can't carry on a real conversation outside the passion.
You're gonna lose.
You're gonna lose.
So the whole point of all of this,is one, show up as you, fucking loud.
Two, get yourself in frickin roomsthat scare the shit out of you.
(01:12):
It's really about looking at those things that you knowwill move the business forward, and doing them anyways.
Thank you for allowing me to always show upas me, and thank you for showing up as you.
Donnie Boivin (01:25):
All right, this idea of weeds is got me fuddled, walk me through what the hell is a weed
Stu Heinecke (01:32):
strategy?
Hey, by the way, I just want to make sure you know, younoticed that I wore the, the, the, the right t shirt for it.
Chief weed officer.
Donnie Boivin (01:39):
Chief weed officer.
That's a, that's awesome.
That's
Stu Heinecke (01:43):
awesome.
So, so we're going to, we're going to talk about weed strategyand about, um, about how to grow your business and why that,
why would your business have anything to do with weeds?
And, um, and I think it might be helpful to tellsort of my origination story about that a little bit.
Does that make sense?
So I was driving down the Santa Monica freewaymany, many years ago, and I spotted this dandelion
(02:06):
growing from a crack in the, in the concrete median.
Well, see, I think it's like, well, anyway, if you thinkabout it, and first of all, that's something that we've
seen a million times before everybody in our lives,there, those weeds are growing out of cracks everywhere.
So, so that wasn't unusual, but I just noticed what I,what I noticed about it was that, you know, it had that.
Those happy yellow flowers and those seeds flying around.
(02:29):
It looked, it just looked like it was having a blast outthere in the middle of the freeway running its process.
And I just thought, that's incredible because, youknow, you might wonder, well, how did it get there?
And we know exactly how they get there.
They have seeds that fly around and theyprobe every possible opportunity to take root.
And so, um, you know, that's obvious, but if you think aboutother plants or trees There are no oak trees growing out of
(02:52):
cracks in the concrete median or rose bushes or petunias.
Most of them don't have that, well, let's just say, I mean,the, the, the dandelions have this unfair advantage in the
way that their seeds are, are made and how they, how theywork, so they don't just drop at their, at their roots, like.
Acorns and pine cones and everything else.
They fly around.
They, they've got an unfair advantage.
(03:14):
So I just wonder, well, what is it about?
And the other thing is, we all knowwhat it means to grow like a weed.
And I was just wondering, what is it about weedsthat makes them so special that, that they can
pull off these things that other plants can't?
And do they have a model?
Like do they, are they all doing the same thing?
Is there a unified model for growth?
And, and if there is, what is it?
(03:35):
And can we, can we apply it to our businesses?
And that set me on this long, long journey that, that culminatedin, in the, in the book, How to Grow Your Business Like a Weed.
And, and, um, what I discovered was they do have a model.
They're all doing the same thing.
They do it in different ways, which is really cool.
It's kind of how we do it in business.
(03:56):
Business is a very creative enterprise.
And, and so there are all kinds of expressions.
They're never the same.
Unless people are copying, I suppose, but they're never the same.
So same with weeds, but they're all doing the same thing.
They're all following this, this model that I think is actuallythe, probably a theory of everything about growing anything.
. Donnie Boivin (04:15):
So, I love this, you know, when you think about the Dandelion as a whole, you know, there's
this Dandelion that you could almost challenge, beatall possible odds to grow into most random places.
And you talk about this unfair advantage, right?
So, for, for us, You know, we run these B2Bnetworking groups, service based businesses.
(04:36):
We're bringing people in, you know, and there's, there's,you know, big competition, you know, all across the board.
And I've never really worried about competition,but I've recognized that they're there.
Um, you know, the biggest organization on theplanet's got 400, 000 members in it and has done
an amazing job at cultivating that community.
(04:57):
Um, some of the other competitors, um, charge a hell of a lotmore higher prices are doing more kind of private elite rooms.
We're caught somewhere in the middle of thosetwo types of companies, um, and out there.
So how do we as a company start thinkingabout what is our unfair advantage?
I mean, we've done a lot of things like we'revirtual, we don't allow MLMs, you know, and the
(05:19):
likes into the organization, but how would I goabout creating unfair advantage for myself or for our
Stu Heinecke (05:26):
companies?
Well, I mean, first I should explain that that model, how thisall fits together is that the weeds all do the same thing.
They're all.
And they also leverage a fierce mindset to thinkthat something without brains can, can have a
mindset, but watch what they do in your yard.
They have a very, I mean, they, they come right backthere, they're persistent and aggressive and resilient
(05:47):
and, and they're collaborative, natural collaborators.
So they have a definite mindset and they leverage that fiercemindset and unfair advantages against collective scale.
And they do it according to a process that's well,in their case, millions of years old, they've
been working at this process for a long time.
And so.
Um, what's interesting about their process is really it's theirevolution and it's just, it's just programmed into their DNA.
(06:09):
They all run the same process, um, togetherand that's what makes them so powerful.
That's what makes them grow like crazy.
So, so coming back to unfair advantages, I think one ofthe things that, that I see being your unfair advantage
is you, um, your business about is about networking.
So you have a network.
I mean, it is a network.
(06:29):
And so I would say that maybe yourbiggest advantage is, um, is the people.
That you have in those networks, would you agree?
But I would think that probably a lot of growth in yourbusiness comes, maybe it all comes from directly, comes
directly from the people that are part of the network.
Yeah.
We're
Donnie Boivin (06:49):
very much a word of mouth.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're definitely a word of mouth, uh, based company.
So, um, we, Are heavily dependent on getting the membersof our chapters to bring more people to the playground
because, um, they've know, and they've discoveredthe more people they bring to the playground, the
(07:11):
more opportunities they get for their own business.
So, and, and we constantly tell people, man, youwant to be sitting around people each week that
you would be proud to introduce to other people.
And you create this environment of a bunch of peoplethat are all going for it, and you want to be around
and are excited to tell other people about them.
(07:33):
That's kind of our biggest unfair advantage, I think.
Stu Heinecke (07:37):
So I think, and I don't know what you do, we're going to talk about it because I'm coaching you,
but I don't know quite what you do yet to cultivatethat, but the more you can cultivate it, the better.
The thing is, you wouldn't offer them, let's say,I had some sort of a cash incentive to do it.
That doesn't, that's the wrong, the wrong approach.
The right approach is they go inand they just get incredible value.
(07:59):
And they're just like, they can'twait to get to the next meeting.
And, and there, and really here's the bottom line.
They're growing because they're part of the network.
And when that happens, they're going to betelling anybody, they won't tell the competitors,
but they'll tell friends and colleagues.
You've got to join this thing because man, you wouldn'tbelieve what I'm using, what I'm learning there and it's
(08:21):
incredible and, and so, um, and I know you have a story,you have a backstory that because we've, we've spoken before
you have a backstory that, that I think probably helps,but I think it's, I think really, I would, I think one
of the, one of the big unfair advantages you have is thatyou have this giant engine of stories that We know they're
(08:42):
happening out there because they're part of your network.
So what are those stories?
What are people, what are peopleexperiencing because they're part of you?
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah, that would be, that would be huge.
. Another thing is you could even sort of, well, I don'tknow whether this is gamifying it or we'll use the word
gamify for now, but, but, um, does anyone have an award?
(09:05):
Right now at some sort of networking award, someonewho, I mean, is there, is there, is there such a thing?
I, you know
Donnie Boivin (09:12):
what?
I honestly don't have any idea.
I don't
Stu Heinecke (09:15):
think there is.
Um, I mean, well, certainly I don't know of one, but it wouldbe really cool to, uh, to, um, start like a competition,
uh, or well, an award, an annual award, let's say of.
How do we put it?
Cause I've not thought about it until right now, but, but just,you know, what are the effects of, of being a part of a network?
(09:38):
We all know we've heard the expression, just, you know, your,your net worth is your, is your network or something like that.
Your network is your net worth.
Yeah.
Um, You need a bet, you need a better one that you canown, but, but something along those lines, something that,
that has people saying, yeah, you know what, that's true.
Gosh, so much comes from my network.
And the more I build it, the more successful I am.
(10:00):
, Donnie Boivin: I like the idea of awards.
Um, what, what I don't know is what particularly weshould award for, um, you know, what, what, yeah.
What is that?
So, so if you think about it, thesepeople, um, we call them champions.
So the champions show up each week in a virtual one hour meeting.
(10:21):
In that meeting, they're going toget a chance to introduce themselves.
They're going to get some tremendous education.
There's going to be breakout rooms.
To where they can collaborate, interact, and network.
And ultimately they're going to give a ton of introductions tothe right people, the right opportunities in the right places.
So we're proactively creating anenvironment for them to grow their business.
(10:43):
So I don't want to create awards for.
Okay.
You gave an introduction, like, or something like that.
'cause that should be the natural question
of it.
I, yeah.
I, I think it's, I think it's the best stories.
Like what was the biggest result of one of the,uh, of, of an introduction that you received?
What was the biggest result of an introduction you gave?
I don't know, something like that.
(11:04):
Wouldn't those be cool?
I like that.
You know, because then you'd be going, okay, well, this is reallykind of, um, I mean, you know, I've written a couple of books.
One of them is about how to get a, one of themis called how to get a meeting with anyone.
And the thing that made, one of thethings that made that book so strong is.
Is gathering up these stories of what people weredoing really audacious things to, to get meetings.
(11:26):
And then like, what, what kind of response ratesthey were getting the highest response rate to
these contact campaigns we discovered is over 300%.
That means that three times as many peoplewho received the campaign actually responded.
That's crazy.
And, and the highest ROI is, is, is, um.
(11:46):
96, 500, 000 percent in other words, someone spent 28 buckson a, on a, a Facebook ad to reach the right buyer at Walmart.
And they did.
And it resulted in, it was a, it was a20 million result from a 28 Facebook.
So, um, so coming up with stories like that, that's,that's, I mean, that's what causes people to then
(12:08):
turn around and talk about the champion network.
I mean, I hope I got that right, but the champion network.
Success champion,
Donnie Boivin (12:14):
everybody calls it S E N for short.
Stu Heinecke (12:17):
Yeah.
Um, so, but I mean, that's what, that's what causes peopleto turn around and talk about it and get excited about
it because they're part, the whole, everyone in yournetwork is part of that process and part of that group.
I think that, that, those would beincredible in terms of cultivating, um.
I guess just really stronger and stronger brandfor the, for the network and, and fascination
(12:40):
and really just a lot of viral past long.
I mean, just having, having people talk about it and it's,you know, when you had those stories, it's incredible.
Yeah,
Donnie Boivin (12:53):
no kidding.
Um, I really love this idea, Stu.
Um, when you got those stories, wereyou then taking them to social media?
Uh, were you putting them in articles?
How are you guys using the stories to thenas a, as a marketing tool, if you will?
Stu Heinecke (13:07):
Well, for me, it shows, I often guess.
I guess on, on podcasts and, and interviews.
So for me, it's, I got to tell the way I tell thestory of how, how to get a meeting with anyone
is to give examples of how people are doing it.
So the way you would tell the story of why networksmake a difference in your business and why they're
accelerators to your success is by telling stories about.
(13:29):
What, how that actually happened out there.
Um, and so, right.
So that, that's, um, that, that should be spread allof them, all of, all of the above actually, but, but
Donnie Boivin (13:43):
also, I actually love that because
Stu Heinecke (13:46):
I'm sorry.
Well, so I was going to say, but the, the,the award could also then be generating.
Um, I mean, once you have, if you have an annual award,send a press release out and get the, get the business
press to start picking up on it so that they're also Helpingyou build your brand, really you're building your brand
because the people in, in, in the network are actuallygetting value and you're, you're grabbing stories of that.
(14:10):
You're starting, you're, you're sort of harvesting storiesfrom that to, um, to actually bring that point home.
So that anyone else, anyone who's part ofit says, wow, I've got to do more of this.
I got to buckle down and the people who aren'tare saying, wow, I'm going to be part of this.
Donnie Boivin (14:27):
Yeah, no, I love this and I love that for all the reasons talked about including,
you know, I get on a ton of podcasts like you areand people always ask us to explain what we do.
Wouldn't it be a cool way to tell one of our members story asa way to explaining, you know, what it is and how we do it.
(14:49):
I think that's just, that's just a killermove to get people to understand what we do.
Um, And it's a really cool concept, Stu.
I really appreciate this.
Um, and we're going to have fun with that though.
I want to talk a little bit to you about, youknow, how you get your meetings with anyone.
Cause I think, you know, now that we've, we've said it a coupleof times, people are gonna like, wait, what is Stu talking about?
(15:12):
How do you get a meeting with anyone?
You know, explain them a little bit about your background.
Um, and for those who haven't read his bio,you need to know Stu is a hell of a cartoonist.
And I am particularly, um, want to,uh, hear about the guy you mentored.
Um, with your cartoonist as you explain,you know, how to get a meeting with anybody.
(15:32):
Yeah, I have,
Stu Heinecke (15:32):
I have one of the weirdest background.
Well, it's a great background, but it's a, it's an unusual one.
So I studied marketing in college andthat's, that's my degree is in marketing.
Um, but I loved cartooning and,and, uh, I grew up, let's say, um.
Well, sneaking playboy, my brothers and Iwould sneak playboys out of my father's dresser
drawers and that's where my career started.
(15:53):
We would,
Donnie Boivin (15:53):
uh, wait, we're still talking about the kind of
Stu Heinecke (15:55):
cartooning career or because, because I would, you know, we'd know, of course we read the articles in the.
That was a big joke about Playboy.
Right.
. But, but I, you know, I was, I was looking at the, uh,at the cartoons and they were, they were extraordinary.
They were really, really good cartoons,great cartoonists in the magazine.
Um, and I was wondering, who are these guys?
(16:16):
I mean, I was 10 then.
It's like, who are these guys?
How do they do this?
And, and so cartooning and always just,
Donnie Boivin (16:20):
who's the only guy that goes to Playboy and looks for the cartoons?
I mean,
Well,
Stu Heinecke (16:25):
I haven't finished the story.
Cause, uh, well, I'll tell you why in a second, but, but Imean, the cartoonists were just saying, God, who are these guys?
How did they do this?
And, and then fast forward, uh, about a dozen years, uh,or a little more than that, but, and suddenly Gahan Wilson
and Eldon Didini, uh, the, the two prime cartoonists in,in, in Playboy were now part of my advertising group.
(16:51):
And, um, and, and I started pulling in others because I wantedto make, I wanted to work with them, but I was figuring,
well, I, my, my innovation was to create direct mail campaignsfor, for publisher, magazine publishers for subscriptions.
Um, and my innovation was to include this or use thispersonalized cartoon on the outer envelope, or the
(17:14):
front panel of whatever it was, a mailer or whatever.
Um, and.
And we really got it down.
And the thing is, I didn't want to just offer my cartooning.
I wanted to offer a whole stable of cartoonists, like the bestcartoonists in the world, as part of my stable of cartoonists.
So, so that my clients could pick anyone.
They could pick Gahan Wilson.
They could pick the Elda Didini.
But then they also, I also started pullingin cartoonists from the New Yorker.
(17:37):
So, uh, um, Leo Collum and ArnieLevin and Bob Mankoff and others.
They're just the best cartoonists in the world.
And, and the mentoring that you justmentioned came, I was mentored by them.
So I was, you know, I'm working with them.
I'm making the money and bringing in projects, but they'reteaching me a whole lot about my, my cartooning improved.
I don't know, a thousand percent because I'm hanging outwith these people and, and they're, they're just brilliant.
(18:01):
They're just incredible at it.
And, and they taught me how to.
Really how to be one of the top cartoonists.
And so, um, that led to a bunch of things.
I mean, I'm one of the Wall Street Journal cartoonists.
I use cartoons all the time because they're great devices.
They're, they're off almost always the best readand remembered parts of magazines and newspapers.
So people really pay attention to them.
(18:21):
I guess you could say they draw them in, butthey're really, really effective devices for Getting
anybody's attention and getting them to smile.
And if you do that, if you laugh, if they laugh,they're think about what laughter is and what humor is.
It's about truth being revealed in a twist.
So, so that's that.
And, and that led to, you know, I, I've sentthese out to, I mean, just to reach the people
(18:43):
I needed to reach in the magazine business.
These were.
These were VPs of circulation and, and, and consumer marketing.
And what I needed to do is reach about 24 people.
That was it.
And if I did that, I had full penetration ofthe, of the, of the publishing industry, and so
I put together this little campaign, send it out.
It was a print of a cartoon, each cartoon abouteach recipient, um, with a note saying, this
(19:08):
is the device I just used to beat the controls.
In other words, set new response recordsfor Rolling Stone and Bon Appetit.
Those were my first two assignments.
Um, well, I think we should, I think we should talk.
I think we should put this to the test for your titles.
And I got, I was just curious.
You know what you might think I would have gotten.
What do you suppose I got for a response to a campaign like that?
(19:30):
Um, well,
Donnie Boivin (19:32):
knowing that it's a prime target and, uh, a prime audience and you come with an ROI proposal.
I know when I used to do that with direct mail and wecould get, you know, upwards of an 80, 90 percent response.
Uh, we could get a high response if we knew the exacttarget and the exact message we need to put in there.
Stu Heinecke (19:49):
Yeah, well, you're very, very close.
A hundred percent, all of them responded, all ofthem agreed to meet, all of them became clients.
So that was a hundred percent meetingrate, a hundred percent conversion rate.
And, um, um, it really just, it, itstarted and launched my business.
It was worth millions of dollars andit was one campaign to 24 people.
And so that set me on this.
(20:10):
Um, journey to like, first of all, indirect response, right?
I'm creating those big direct mail campaigns.
Everybody in direct response was saying, uh, 100percent response rates are absolutely impossible.
And, um, isn't that interesting?
Because we both, we both have haddifferent experiences than that.
But, but it turned out.
Donnie Boivin (20:33):
I mean, just so we're, we're, we're telling a very similar story and I'll explain mine that I'll get back to.
But when I sold commercial printing, I diddirect response, you know, direct mail.
And what we did is we partnered with the YMCAacross the US, you know, entire all the US.
And what happened is when somebody toured a YMCAfacility, they were asked very particular questions on
(20:55):
the tour of what things that were they interested inand what, you know, things were they really enjoyed.
When they left.
The person who did the walkthrough sat down andtyped out all the responses in a little form.
We created for them that basically put together a drop down menu.
They would then that information be sent to usand we would send off a customized direct mail
(21:17):
piece saying, Hey, thanks for touring to YMCA.
We know you like pool area, the gym area, youknow, it was customized 100 percent for them.
They had an 80 percent response rate of peoplebringing those back in and becoming a member, becoming
a member of the YMCA because of the detail of it.
So that's how we were able to do it.
It's very similar.
Captive audience, captive message, you know, uh, it works really,
Stu Heinecke (21:40):
really well.
Tony, that's, that's incredible.
That's really brilliant marketing.
And, and, um, yeah, that, that's, that's an incredible story,
Donnie Boivin (21:49):
right?
Yeah.
You know, but that's.
The, the point is, you know, with the way you guyswere doing direct mail to get in there, it's insane.
I had a young kid once upon a time want to be on one ofmy podcasts and he knew he didn't have a very big story.
They knew he hadn't done one thing.
He lived a cool life and he wanted to beon my podcast because he loved the show.
(22:10):
The dude drew my caricature and sent it in and said,I don't have much of a life and story to do it.
I love your show.
I would love to be a guest.
Nobody else had ever done a caricature of me.
I instantly reached out, brought the kid on, you know,uh, we talked about him being a blacksmith and some other
things, but it was just a cool way to break through the mold.
(22:31):
And that's what I'm fascinated about you and yourstory about how you were able to leverage all this.
So I'll let you continue on your story, but,um, uh, It's, it's, it's so fascinating to me.
Well,
Stu Heinecke (22:42):
yeah, I mean, I just, I just ended up, I'll, I'll shorten it up, uh, that, that I ended up getting
really curious about what, what's, I mean, like I thought,aren't I cool, I have the secret weapon, like the cartoons.
I can get through to anyone.
I was getting real, I was reaching presidents, primeministers, celebrities, and countless CEOs, really seat level.
People and top decision makers.
(23:03):
It's like I could meet anyone.
And so then, then I got really curious.
What's everyone else doing?
How are they doing it?
And God, there's a whole, there's a whole shadowform of marketing out there that didn't have a name.
When I start, when I, when I wrote my book, how to geta meeting with anyone, I called it contact marketing.
And, and so, but there's this wholeshadow form of marketing out there that.
(23:24):
Is getting response rates as high asa hundred percent, sometimes beyond.
And that's, that's when people startsaying, Hey, look at this thing that I got.
Look at, I just want to show youthis thing that I got from this guy.
And, and they go, that's incredible where I won't let mewrite down the number because I want, I want to call them up.
I want to, I want to join in as well.
And so I can, I know we're, um, I know we're audio,but if your audience is also viewing this, I can
(23:50):
show you what one of the contact devices look like.
Oh, go ahead and show it.
Donnie Boivin (23:55):
I mean, we'll put a picture of it in the show notes too.
Okay, cool.
Um, so,
Stu Heinecke (23:59):
so they can get it.
Well, so that, that same cartoon, I was saying that Isent an eight by 10 print of a cartoon with a note to the,
all the, the, um, circulation folks at the publishers.
And that, that has evolved into this.
This is a, this is a big board.
I have to go way back.
So it's, it's an 18 by 24 inch quarterinch thick, thick foam core board.
(24:24):
Um, cartoon on the front, always, always about therecipient and, and messaging and branding on the back.
Um, and I said, I sent this cartoon, you'll have to describe it.
It's two women having coffee.
And 1 of them is explaining to her friend, I'mgoing to actually have to put a name in it.
So the 1 that I sent to Mark Cuban, um, she'ssaying Mark Cuban says you can tell a lot about
(24:47):
a person just by looking at their Mavs tickets.
I tend to agree.
And of course, Mark does too, because he put it up inhis, in his office and it's, and that happens a lot.
They don't throw them, nobody throws these away.
So, um, so they're just great devicesfor getting, getting meetings.
I'm going to, you know, you asked that question.
Like, where did you, you got your whole, when I got mywhole career started by sneaking playboys out of our, by
(25:12):
the dresser doors, um, and, and you were telling me, youonly, you didn't, you didn't look at the pictures, but I
did my, like the most important meeting I ever had in mylife was meeting my wife, who is a, a penthouse cover model.
So I did pay attention, but it just ended up that way.
Donnie Boivin (25:33):
That's awesome.
That's awesome.
You know, I'm being a traditional sales guy, man.
I've done a lot of things to get in the doors of twoto different companies to get conversation started.
You know, um, I've sent flowers and I've sent bottlesof liquor and, you know, I've done all kinds of things.
I wish I would have learned about you a long timeago because I've been drawing since I was a kid.
(25:57):
Um, and you know, lettered and art in highschool and drawing has always been my thing.
I'm never painting or anything because I just never got into it.
Um, I.
I almost want to start now, like start doing my own cartoonsand sending them off to these key conversations and the
likes that I need to get into just to have some fun.
Cause like there's some massive podcasts and things that I'dlove to be a guest on and what a cool way to reach out to them
(26:23):
to say, Hey, I'd love to be a guest on a show to tell my story.
Yeah.
Stu Heinecke (26:26):
You know, I'll tell you what's really good about that is, um, of course,
I don't know what your cartoons look like.
I don't, maybe you don't either yet.
But, but whatever they look
Donnie Boivin (26:34):
like, I've really never done the whole cartoon side of things.
So, so that'd be a whole new venture for me.
Stu Heinecke (26:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, well, I'm just going to say though, that, um, if youdid it and it, maybe it came out funky cause we, you know, I
don't know what it will turn out like it, it takes practice.
So it doesn't matter what's really, what'sreally going on is it's very humanizing.
I mean, it makes you, it creates this human to human connection.
This guy sat down and drew me this cartoon.
This is really cool.
(27:00):
It's about my podcast.
And I really appreciate, they just appreciate that.
And it, you know, it just, just like the kid you mentioneda moment ago, who sent you the, the, the caricature.
It, it just that, that, um, that effort that, that he tookstands out, makes him stand out, makes him a human being.
Donnie Boivin (27:18):
Now, how do you come up with the creative sayings like, you know, Mark Cuban can judge people by, or.
Tell personality by their map ticket type thing.
Where do you come up with thoseconcepts and ideas and things like that?
Oh
Stu Heinecke (27:32):
man, it's one of the most, I think it's one of the most challenging things that I get to do and they don't,
they don't just pop out, but I don't know, they're justthese funny things that happen and, um, and you, or you might
overhear someone saying something and think, okay, that's it.
That's a, that's a cartoon right there.
And, um, I was in the grocery store.
(27:53):
Uh, a while ago, and I was, I was behindthis, this woman at the deli counter.
She was, she was being helped.
I was waiting.
And, um, and so the, the deli workers actually sliced the meat.
She brought it over to the, to this woman.
And she said, would you like to taste it?
And he said, she says, I don't care what it tastes like.
I don't care what it tastes like.
It's for my husband.
I just thought.
(28:13):
Okay, so I asked, I had them pose for me, but soyou might overhear something, um, or I don't know.
I mean, just, um.
I don't know.
They just, a lot of times these ideas pop and pop to mind.
(28:36):
You just have to wait for them to pop into your head, I guess.
Or you just sit.
There's another method, which is just to sit downand say, damn it, I'm going to come up with one.
And so you're right and right and rightuntil all of a sudden, boom, there it is.
So that, that may work as well.
Um, but there it's the toughestpart because think about what it is.
This is pure concept.
It's, it's, it's pure insight.
(28:57):
When, when someone, when love, when someone laughs,when we laugh at something, we're always saying,
I mean, like before we can even stop laughing.
We're saying, Oh my God, it's so true.
Or that's so true.
We hear that words come out of our mouths all the time.
And so, so the, the, um, the caption really is, it's the idea.
It's the whole idea is what everythingis centered on for the, for the cartoon.
(29:21):
So.
You've got to, I guess you either have to wait forthose ideas to pop into mind or push it, um, or
draw something and maybe write, maybe write it.
Sometimes some cartoonists do it that way.
They'll draw something, just elements that don't fittogether, the non sequiturs and, and then they'll,
they'll write and write until, okay, there it is.
That's, that's the cartoon.
(29:41):
Does that make sense?
Donnie Boivin (29:43):
Yeah, it does.
It does.
It's completely fascinating because, you know, when I thinkabout drawing for me, I'm a free form, you know, draw.
I don't usually, it's a lot of times I don't evennecessarily have an idea of what I'm drawing in place.
It metamorphs into something, you know, um, from adoodle or something else will create an entire landscape.
So like on my desktop right now, my whole desk is covered indoodles, um, that started for, uh, for a freaking, uh, Little
(30:08):
mosaic I was doing that turned into a plant that turned into acomplete office space that turned into a complete office space.
It's being ripped in half by an axe.
Right?
So, um, it's pretty insane where it continues to evolve.
So your idea of either finding the statementout in the out in the wild, if you will.
Or just start drawing and then write to thedrawing makes that works for my mindset and
(30:32):
how I approach drawing in the first place.
So, um, that, that could be a lot of, a lot of fun.
I had a idea once upon a time to create,so I have my goat farm where we got.
Goats, chicken, ducks, and geese on there had the idea to starta goat cartoon with a play off the words of greatest of all time.
And actually that I have goats, so thismight be my incentive to, to do just that.
(30:56):
So, uh, I don't think that's a great idea.
Stu Heinecke (31:00):
I think it's a great idea.
You know, just further to your question, you know,you might also think in terms of how can I take,
maybe, maybe one is how do I take an expression to it?
Like where, where does that make the most, or where does thatcome to this intersection with just complete, Ridiculousness.
So, so I have one where we're looking down sort of a fly'sfly's eye view of in an office, um, in a meeting room and
(31:28):
there are people seated around the table and the guy leadingthe meeting has his finger on a, on the key of a tape player.
On the, on the table, um, and there's one, one fellowleft standing, and he's looking rather sheepish,
and he's saying, he's saying, sorry, Bob, the musicstopped, you didn't find a chair, you're fired.
So musical chairs, I mean, we, we play musical chairsthroughout life all the time, and so it does actually
(31:53):
make sense, but it's carried to its ridiculous,to its ridiculous conclusion if, if people in a
meeting, if the boss says, all right, everyone get up.
I'm going to play this music becauseone of you is going to get fired.
Um, or I had another one that I did sort of another HR themewhere there's where the HR guys is talking to a ventriloquist
(32:18):
and his dummy and, and, uh, and he's saying, we're going tohave to let one of you go, and that would be interesting.
But just sort of carrying it to the point of.
Ridiculousness suddenly creates this, this insight.
It's just kind of a cool thing.
Cool process.
I don't really start with, okay, what's theinsight that I want to impart necessarily?
(32:38):
It's just, I don't know.
I'm thinking of what, what's funny.
I don't know.
Just what funny things can, what wordplay can I play with?
And, and, and, um, and suddenly if something pops up as funny.
You'll find that it always has some element of truth revealed.
That's what, that's what they're actually all about.
So do you
Donnie Boivin (32:58):
go down a path of like, uh, I want to teach something or may bring awareness to something?
And start your concept there or, or, or isit more you just organically let everything
Stu Heinecke (33:14):
flow?
I want, well, it depends if it's for the journal then,and it's just for, it's not going to be personalized then.
And yeah, I'm, I'm looking, I don't know.
I'm just looking for funny ideas.
And when they.
When they popped into mind, then I just give a little bitof thought like I now I can categorize and say, okay, cool,
because what that'll do is it'll, it'll have this message.
(33:34):
I can see it right away.
Um, but the other one, if I, if it's for, if it's for,for campaigns, the cartoon I held up just a moment ago of
the two women having coffee, um, I personalized it with.
With Mark Cuban's information and he sells Mavs tickets,but other people, if you were, that's a great cartoon
for reaching out to people and connecting with them.
So if I was reaching out to, I don't know, people thatare pool contractors, then, you know, and one of them
(34:00):
was Bob Smith, then she'd be saying in the caption thatI'd sent to Bob, she'd be saying, Bob Smith says you can
tell a lot about a person just by looking at their pool.
I tend to agree.
And of course Bob would totally agree with that.
So we'd be going, Oh my God, that's so cool.
That's hilarious.
If I was sending it to roofers, it would be, uh, so and so saysyou can tell a lot about a person just by looking at their roof.
(34:20):
I tend to agree.
So I'm, I'm playing, or if it's a salesteam, it's looking at their pipeline.
So, um, yeah, there are these, these certainelements that have to be part of that.
There were their, their data insertion points.
Who are they?
What, what's their names and, and what do they door what do they sell ends up being in the caption.
And that makes it very, very relevant.
Donnie Boivin (34:42):
Have you ever done it from a, like a teaching aspect, like you're trying to teach a concept and then use the
cartoons along that line because I'm thinking about my content.
A lot of my content is centered around teachinghow to network at the level that we network,
um, you know, uh, is there a way that you've.
Taught in that, that way by using cartoons?
Stu Heinecke (35:03):
Um, I sort of, I mean, if I get, if I, if I keynote, if I give speeches, then I'll,
I'll, and we're, and I'm using slides, I usuallydo, then there are cartoons to make those points.
Um, and then in my, well, in one of my books, in, in how to geta meeting with anyone at each chapter started with a cartoon.
So I, I suppose in that way, yes, but I haven't usedit as, let's say, a training, a training device.
(35:29):
I know you do training, so that that makes a lot of sense.
Actually, the point is, you know, it's just it's drawing up.
Literally, it's drawing out a point of agreement.
So everyone says they're laughing to go.
Huh?
But, you know, that's really true.
Yes, I agree.
And and so it's a great way to do that.
And, and.
So make, make this point.
That's like, no one can argue with it.
(35:49):
Then they all get it.
If they get the cartoon, they're also getting the point.
Donnie Boivin (35:54):
Yeah, I'm already in my head of all the funny things that we could play off of because there's
a lot of people that network really, really badly.
Um, and doing cartoons of bad networking, uh, could be funny.
And it would also teach the point of, you shouldn'tdo this thing, you know, like, The guys that go out
and do nothing but collect all the business cards.
(36:16):
I don't know how to put that all together.
You know, but they get home, they put the cards ontheir desk, and then they never do anything with them.
Or the guys that do nothing but walk up and start pitching you.
As soon as they see you, you're like, Oh, let mesell you whatever widgets or crap they're into.
So there's a lot of things that you could play off of.
Um.
That that's going to be a fun project for me to tackle.
And I can already hear all my advisors and coaches going,God, don't give him something else he can get creative on.
(36:42):
Oh, cause, um, I'm a guy that thinks Canva is thegreatest invention, uh, that's ever hit this world.
Um, uh, Canva is just an amazing program becauseit allows me to be creative and productive
at the same time with a lot of cool things.
Stu Heinecke (36:57):
That's cool.
My favorite is Photoshop.
So I get to, I get to paint the cartoons and boom,all of a sudden I have something really cool.
Hey, would you like to see another, another form of that?
Let me just, I, you know, I'm pretty excited.
So, so, you know, again, I'm usingcartoons to, to move something along.
So, um, I'm going to show you 1 card I'm doing.
(37:18):
We're also doing cards, which is a newthing for us, but cards as contact devices.
And so I have this 1 cartoon that I use.
Um, when, when someone, when someone's not callingme back, I, you know, and I'm like, what's going on?
Why are they not?
I mean, cause this has now gone, gone on too long.
Well, I don't know what's going on, but we really need toget in touch and I can't get this person back on the phone.
(37:42):
So, um, I might send them this cartoon.
I'm going to show it to you, but I'm going to fill your name in.
So, so, uh, if you were the guy that was, that was, um,not calling me back, I'd send you this card and, and it's
saying, um, I think you can see there's a guy in the desert.
By a pay phone.
Oh, he's on a pay phone.
Maybe Route 66 somewhere.
And he's saying, Hi, Donnie.
It's me again.
Listen, I don't know if you've been checkingyour voicemail all last week, but I'm still
(38:04):
here at the same number waiting for your call.
This guy's, this guy's been waiting for aweek or two waiting for you to call back.
And it gets, the thing is, it just, it breaks the ice.
It just causes people to go, Oh gosh, it's a pattern interrupt.
So they just, they go, Oh my God, I got to call.
I got to call Donnie back.
I mean, I can't, I can't leave this any longer.
(38:24):
This is funny.
Um, and it's also humanizing.
I think that's a theme everywhere.
Another one that I use when, when there'sa stalled, um, proposal is this one.
So if, if I had sent you a proposal and, and you, andyou weren't responding, I might send you this card.
So it's this guy cradling the phone on his shoulder andhe's going through some papers and he's saying, Hey,
(38:45):
Donnie, listen, I got your proposal and I like, I'm sorry.
Hey Don, we got your proposal and welike everything except having to pay you.
So I think that's also, that's, you know, that's a problem withevery proposal, but if I send that with a note inside that just
says, Hey, Donnie, um, sorry, it didn't work out this time.
Maybe next time.
(39:05):
I usually, I would say about 50 percent of the time it causespeople to call back and say, whoa, whoa, wait a minute.
No, I, I didn't mean to, to ignore you.
I was just waiting for this one guy to get back tome on a budget question, but yes, let's do this.
You know, you get, you get things like that and youneed to get that prompted or else it doesn't happen.
Yeah, dude, I
Donnie Boivin (39:25):
love that.
I mean, I, I, I've taught for a number of years, likemy favorite phrase when you're getting ghosted and not
gonna reply is just send an email with the subject line.
Have you been eaten by an alligator?
And all we were going for is just the ridiculousness of it.
And we get a high response rate of people replying back.
No, just been busy.
You've been swamped.
Another one version we did was we give them three options is one.
(39:49):
The first option was we talked, we haven't heard from you.
Uh, number one, you've been busy.
You haven't been able to get back to it.
No big deal.
You're waiting to get back to us at a later point.
Number two, you've won the lottery, you've now sailedoff and live on an island by yourself, and life is
good and you're never going to do business ever again.
Or three, you decided we weren't a good fitand you just didn't want to hurt my feelings.
(40:12):
Just reply back with one, two, or three.
Right.
So I love your step because you know, thatputs it in the email, but you're putting them
a tangible piece of property in their hand.
That's absolutely brilliant.
Yeah.
I like
Stu Heinecke (40:25):
the idea of putting something in their hands because they don't get that very often.
So even that is a pattern interrupt.
Yeah.
That's true.
Yeah.
Donnie Boivin (40:33):
Yeah, no, that's really, really smart.
Stu Heinecke (40:35):
I think we think a lot alike, actually.
Donnie Boivin (40:40):
I think you're right.
It's the creative side of things.
You know, um, uh, I think creatives justtend to think differently in general.
Um, and it's a pretty wicked combination.
When you take a creative that also has a vision and driven,um, you know, they're going to make some things happen just.
(41:01):
By thinking outside of the box on a regular basis.
Yeah, yeah.
It's been really, really fun getting to know you.
I'm just curious, you know, you'vebuilt some pretty successful businesses.
What do you think is like the, the, the biggest thingpeople Need to have in mind or do to scale a business.
(41:22):
What is there, is there a thought processyou've carried with you along the way?
Is there a mechanics behind it you've done?
What's been that big thing for you tobuild your business to the level you have?
That's
Stu Heinecke (41:32):
a good question.
I, you know, I, I think I'm going to just bring itback to, to weed strategy because the weeds that
they just, they've completely crystallized it for me.
Mixed metaphors, but they've really just made itvery, very clear to me that we need unfair advantages.
No business will stay in business without them.
So what are yours and, and what kinds of unfairadvantage, new unfair advantages can you cultivate?
(41:53):
I have some, I mean, I'm a, I'm a wall street journal cartoonist.
That's been a great unfair advantage in certain circumstances.
Um, it causes when I'm, when my cartoons appear there,then they reach a million or a couple million readers.
So that's a great.
Great thing.
I have a couple of books out and one of them, I think seems likeit's, it's going to be kind of a classic in, in the sales arena.
(42:16):
It was, it was named one of the top 64.
Well, you know, it's how to get a meeting with anyone, butit was named one of the top 60 sales books of all time.
And we're, we're about to, we're now we're,we're, um, we're working on updating it.
So we'll have a new edition of it coming up in about a year.
Uh, it just seems to keep going and going.
So that's a great unfair advantage.
And, um, Yeah, I mean, I've got a bunch of them, but those, Iguess the other one is just the collaborations that I'm doing.
(42:43):
So there, and that's a different category.
So it's unfair advantages.
And then what, like, who can you collaborate with?
And I think weeds would ask us if they could talk to us, they'dsay, they wouldn't ask us, they'd say, you need to, if you
want to grow, you need to team up with the smartest people, youknow, as fast as you can, and, and come up with collaborations.
(43:04):
And I'm doing that.
In fact, I think you and I might end up doing one.
I'd love to do one with you.
I mean, one of the things we're doing is I, I, I'mteaming up with some of the authors I know and other,
just very, some of the most impressive people I know.
And we're putting together growth, growth summits,um, in bucket list locations around the world.
And, and that's going to be a blast.
That's just going to be an absolute blast.
(43:26):
In the meantime, though, we expose each other to our audiences.
So.
Each of us gets a big benefit from it andwe're combining what, what our specialties are.
Mine was weed strategy and growth growthstrategy based according to weeds.
Um, and then if, um, if I'm teaming up with, let'ssay Mark Hunter is one of the top sales authors, then,
um, it's, you know, sales is, is fuel for growth.
(43:49):
These things are going to mix really, really well.
So, so I, so it's also then justthe spirit of radical collaboration.
How can I collaborate with, with as many people as possibleto expand my market, to expand my, my brand and to expand my
opportunities, to expand the, just the, the, the people that theamount of people that I'm, I'm gaining access to and, and, and,
(44:13):
and creating these really interesting, um, uh, combinations.
You know, there's a guy, I don't know if youknow, Daniel Disney, um, Daniel is a pig.
He's a big, uh, influencer on, on LinkedIn.
Um, I think he has a million followers on LinkedIn.
That's a pretty big following on LinkedIn.
Um, and he once asked me, um, Hey, would you ever doa, a course on, on creating cartoons or just, you know,
(44:38):
cartooning and, and, but, but, you know, Apply it to sales.
Do you offer a course like that?
I didn't, but I'm just thinking who better to team up withto do a course on cartooning for sales than Daniel Disney?
I can think about his last name for a while.
Right.
He'd be amazing.
(44:58):
He'd just be amazing.
Absolutely.
So we've got to find those really golden opportunitiesfor, for these, these great collaborations.
And when you do that.
Everything just changes.
It just changes.
So unfair advantages and radical collaboration.
I mean, even with your clients, find ways.
We just discussed it with, with your networking company, butbecause you're, because the networkers are your clients and
(45:22):
you're finding ways to collaborate with all of them really.
So, so that, I mean, just.
The spirit of radical collaboration is, is key as well.
We don't do it on our own.
Donnie Boivin (45:32):
Yeah.
And collaboration is how I've builteverything if I were completely honest.
I mean, you know, sure I've shown up and putmy brand out there on a regular basis, but it's
always been the relationships that I've built.
You know, podcasting has been an amazing tool to, toMeet so many fascinating people and, you know, because
(45:53):
of podcasting, I've gotten into the conversations I damnnear wouldn't have dreamed of getting into, you know,
like, in all honesty, I'm sitting across from a, youknow, freaking legendary freaking cartoonist right now.
You know, I mean, that's, that's a huge moment for me.
You know, to have those type of moments becauseyeah, and it's all because of a podcast, right?
(46:13):
So, so you find unique ways to get in some amazing conversations.
And I think that's the foundation for anybody to, to go.
And I love the phrase, you know, uh, radicalcollaboration because you almost have to
get to a mindset of no is not an answer.
You know, there, because sometimes when you get incollaboration conversations, at least I'll speak for myself,
(46:37):
you get to that place of, crap, can we afford that yet?
Can we do this yet?
You know, what are all those pieces and you haveto learn to turn off the noise and go, okay, let's
just go with it and see what the hell happens.
Um, and, and that ability to let go in the momenthas produced some pretty spectacular things.
You know, for us, so, uh, you should totallycoin that phrase radical collaboration if you
(46:59):
haven't, um, because it's a powerful statement.
Yeah.
Stu Heinecke (47:03):
more we think in those, in those ways, the more we're going to grow and it's, it's, it's like magic.
Yeah.
100%.
Donnie Boivin (47:09):
100%.
Well, Stu, we could do this all day long.
I could obviously sit here and continueto geek out with you for hours.
Um, and I think we keep everybody in retain,but we try and keep these under an hour.
So how do people find you?
How do they reach out?
Um, how do they connect with you?
Stu Heinecke (47:25):
Well, there are a couple of ways.
Um, if you have the spelling of aname, you can go to my author site.
So that's Stu Heinick dot com S T U H E I N E C K E.
Um, and, and, and I'd love to have you.
Go there.
And if you sign up to be on my list, then you get thefirst two chapters of how to get a meeting with anyone.
I'm sorry, of, of how to grow your business like a weed for free.
(47:47):
Love to have you do that.
You can connect with me on LinkedIn.
Um, and, uh, and, and just mentionedthat, that you heard me on Donnie's show.
That would be great.
I'd be, I'd be very appreciative of that.
Um, and if you want, if you're curious about someof those contact devices, come to cartoon link.
com and check out the cards.
It's awesome.
Donnie Boivin (48:07):
That's awesome.
Well guys, this was a tremendous value for me.
I love the hell out of hanging out with you, Stu.
Listeners, if you guys get any value out of this whatsoever,do me a favor and take a screenshot of this episode, wherever
you're listening to, whatever device you're on, and goto social media and post out there that you've listened
to this message, this Episode tag me and stew in it.
(48:27):
If I could find that tag, I will come commenton it, try and give you some love on that.
But you taking those screenshots and putting it out therejust lets us know that this is the content you want to keep,
continue to, uh, promote and put out there in the marketplace.
So as always guys, love you, man.
See you.
Bye.
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