E 51 -Losing My Religion with Beth Rockert

What happens when the religious framework you've known your entire life no longer feels true? Beth Rockert, raised as a pastor's kid in a strict evangelical Christian household, courageously shares her spiritual coming-out story and the winding path that led her to a more authentic relationship with the divine.

Beth's journey began unexpectedly through physical healing. After suffering running injuries in her 40s, she reluctantly tried yoga, discovering not just physical relief but a doorway to deeper spiritual questions she had suppressed since childhood. For years, she navigated two worlds – attending church while exploring meditation and alternative spiritual practices – feeling the growing tension between inherited beliefs and emerging truths.

When diagnosed with a rare brain tumor in 2020, Beth's spiritual evolution accelerated during her recovery. Confined to quiet stillness, she deepened her meditation practice and found profound connections with ancestors and spiritual guides. Through vulnerability and raw honesty, Beth reveals how she processed the grief of lost relationships as friends and family struggled to accept her changing beliefs, while discovering an unexpected peace and expanded capacity for love.

This powerful conversation delves into the complex emotions of religious deconstruction – the anger, fear, and liberation that come with questioning core beliefs about worthiness and divine connection. Beth offers practical wisdom for those experiencing similar journeys: finding supportive therapists, practicing self-compassion through journaling, and cultivating patience during the inevitable anger phase. Her story reminds us that spiritual growth isn't about perfection but about authentically embracing our soul's unfolding.

Whether you're questioning your religious upbringing, navigating midlife spiritual shifts, or supporting someone through their own transformation, this vulnerable conversation offers compassionate guidance and the reminder that you're not alone. Ready to step out of your spiritual closet? This episode might just give you the courage you need.

Meet Beth!

Beth Rockert is a CYT-200 yoga instructor, PMP-certified professional, and co-founder of The Om Well Collective Yoga and Wellness Center in Kankakee, IL. With 37 years of experience in Corporate America, Beth understands firsthand the stresses of professional life and is passionate about helping others find balance through yoga.

She loves working with those new to yoga practice, offering variations to every pose so each practitioner can find the version that fits their unique body structure and absorb the intended benefits. Beth weaves together the foundations of both the physical and spiritual practice, providing practical insights for integrating yoga both on and off the mat. She has a particular passion for using yoga to reduce stress, anxiety, and tension, creating a warm and supportive atmosphere in her classes.

Beth also holds additional credentials in Chair Yoga, Reiki Levels 1 and 2, Yoga for the Workplace, Yoga Inclusivity, and Yoga Activism. Outside the studio, she’s a proud mom, grandma, and wife — roles that deepen her compassion and understanding of life’s many stages.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey friend, welcome to the halfway to dead podcast.
I'm your host, jen Lovell.
Listen, you and I have reachedthat age where we are done with
the bullshit.
We know that midlife is ourchance to flip the script and
experience life on our own terms.
It's time to reconnect with ourhigher selves and reclaim our
inner peace.
Are you ready with an openheart and an open mind?

(00:26):
Awesome, you're in the rightplace.
Hop in and ride shotgun with meon this midlife spiritual
journey.
Hey guys, welcome back.
So today, well, you know, beforewe get started today's episode,
I'm going to ask you guys for afavor.
I'm going to ask you guys, ifyou haven't done it yet, to just
right now, unless you'redriving duh just click and give

(00:48):
me a nice five-star review.
I would really appreciate it.
I'm trying to spread our reachas far as we can and get as many
people on this journey with usas we can, and so that's helpful
.
So I'm just going to ask for it.
Would you guys please give me afive-star review.
If not, I'll survive, we'll allsurvive it, but I would love it
if you would do it, okay.
So today I interviewed BethRockert.

(01:08):
Beth is a CYT 200 yogainstructor, a PMP certified
professional and co-founder ofthe Omwell Collective Yoga and
Wellness Center.
With 37 years of experience incorporate America, beth
understands firsthand thestresses of professional life
and is passionate about helpingothers find balance through yoga

(01:29):
.
Beth also holds additionalcredentials in chair yoga, reiki
levels one and two, yoga forthe workplace, yoga inclusivity
and yoga activism.
So are you getting this?
Beth loves her.
Some yoga, you guys.
Also outside of the studio,she's a proud mom, grandma and

(01:50):
wife, and these are roles thatdeepen her compassion and
understanding of life's manystages.
So what do we talk about today?
You're thinking we're justgoing to only talk about yoga.
No, we are not.
We talk about how yoga guidedher through recovery from
physical injuries and a raretumor.
That's part of her spiritualjourney.
Mainly, what we get into todayis Beth gets very vulnerable
with us as she shares herjourney through being raised as

(02:12):
a strict evangelical Christian.
She was a PK you guys, pastor'skid.
If you grew up in Christianity,you probably knew what a PK was
, but we talk about it in theshow.
So she went through thisjourney of the deconstruction of
religion and her reconnectionwith the divine in a very
different way.
Beth and I have this in common.

(02:32):
So we talk a lot about it and Ijust want to just shout out to
Beth and thank her for beingvulnerable in sharing her story,
because, while this isn't a new, fresh part of her journey, it
is new for her to share thispublicly.
So I'm honored and flatteredthat she felt comfortable enough
to do that with me here on theHalfway to Dead podcast.

(02:54):
So we get into it all and shejust comes right out of her
spiritual closet for us.
You guys, if she can do it, I'mdoing it through this podcast,
you guys can do it too.
Okay, we talk about thedeconstruction of religion, Guys
, we just go a lot of differentfun directions.
So what I ended up doing is youhave the main episode here with
our main topics of discussion.

(03:15):
Then because a lot of it wasstill very interesting
conversation, we have bonuscontent with Beth.
It's right there underneaththis one.
So when you finish with thisepisode, go to the bonus content
and you can continueeavesdropping on Beth and I's
conversation.
So let's jump in to this veryimportant subject, which is the
process of deconstructing ourreligious background as we move

(03:38):
through this spiritual journeyand embrace the divine God
whatever you call it in a new,different my opinion better way.
All right, let's do this.
Thanks for being here, beth.
Oh, thanks, it's going to bereally good.
We've all been through a bunchof crap, but Beth's been through
stuff in midlife, just like us,you guys and so we're going to
hear a little bit about it today, and not because we're a bunch

(04:00):
of nosy bodies, but becausesharing our stories helps us
know we're not alone and helpsus know that we can get through
this right, absolutely.
You can't get around.
You got to go through everybody.
We got to do the work like wetalk about.
Let's just start with yourspiritual journey story.
Where do you want to start?

Speaker 2 (04:17):
I think it's important to know, first, that I
was raised devout Christian.
My father was a pastor for awhile.
That's really what brought usup to this area from Southern
Indiana, so I was raised in avery hellfire brimstone, you
know place, and really I'mgrateful for every step of that
because it gave me a deep-rootedfaith and it really connected
me with spirituality, right yeah.

(04:39):
And then as I got older, youknow, into my early tween years,
I would start questioning, youknow, I would be like how do we
know that our God is the God?
How do we know that what isthis Buddha thing and what is
this Islam thing?
And why is Catholic differentfrom what we learn?

Speaker 1 (04:57):
Like it was, just yeah because there's so many
branches just in Christianityalone, right, right, and
everybody kind of argues witheach other a little bit,
absolutely.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
And so like.
So I was always like how do weknow what we're teaching, is
what I'm learning is the onlyway, right?
I was always questioning that.
And then, of course, you gettaught that.
Don't doubt your faith.
You know it's faith in whatisn't seen.
And right.
So you know, I really buriedthat into my teens and right, so

(05:27):
you know, I really buried thatinto my teens.
But then in college, I lovedworld religion.
I loved learning aboutdifferent theologies and my
curiosity was always piqued, Yep.
But you know, being embedded inthe church, you are again
taught, you know that, almost tofear it.
Like, don't really look intothat because it's going to make
you doubt your faith.
Fast forward through all oflife's things marriage, divorce

(05:50):
and so I would say like one ofthe pivotal turns for me was a
divorce in 2014.
And for me, that was I'm donetrying to turn myself inside out
for other people, yeah, that'smidlife.
Right, I'm ready to live lifeand really embrace it.
And when that divorce startedto happen, I really started to

(06:15):
evaluate where am I and where doI want to be and what do I want
my life to look like?
And I want it to be peace and Iwant it to be love and I want
it to be connected.
And so I just started doingthings differently and I was a
runner at the time and ended upwith an injury, and that injury

(06:35):
came very close to a surgery.
And then I went for a secondopinion for this back surgery
and neck surgery.
And the lady that I went to saidI want you to give me six
months and let's try somethingdifferent.
And she did acupuncture andacupressure and she had
chiropractic adjustments and youknow all of this.
She was.
Yeah, it was a much moreholistic approach, which was

(06:56):
interesting, but she was from, Ithink, Poland was where she was
from, and so she integrated allthese holistic things.
And then that piqued myinterest and I started to
explore and I got connected witha local chiropractor who then
said I think yoga would be goodfor your body.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
You run and you demand a lot from your body and
what age are you when all thisis going on?

Speaker 2 (07:20):
Two-ish right yeah, as scary as it was I'd never
done yoga before I'm like I'mgoing to give it a try.
So I found a local yoga studioand I was nervous because, you
know, because of the injury, Ihad stopped running and I gained
a lot of weight and I was likenot feeling good about my body,
right.
So I go in and I'm like, oh,it's going to be this tiny

(07:42):
little yoga teacher and I'mgoing to Right, a bunch of tiny
people in their tight clothes.
Tiny people in their tightclothes doing handstands.
Is it exactly?
You know all the things.
People think yoga is but isn'tis what I was thinking, right.
And I walked into the yogaclass and first the yoga teacher
was about my age and I was like, okay, I like that, yep, I like

(08:09):
that, yep, I like that.
And secondly, every otherperson in the class was older
than me and with different bodytypes and different body styles?
There wasn't any.
You know thin little athleticperson doing handstands right.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
It's a very different vibe than going to like the gym
.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
Right, a very different vibe, and so by the
end of class, what was beautifulabout it is that teacher
specialized in gentle yoga, andso she really taught me how to
modify and adapt the poses so Iwould get the benefit, but that
it would work in my body yeah.
And that I was hooked byShavasana, right, yeah.
And that next couple of yearsreally digging into the practice

(08:43):
and getting quiet on the matchanged everything.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
All right, I like that.
Okay, so let's get back intoyour story.
We kind of we're talking yogafor a minute, but it's part of
your story, so so you turn toyoga and it's helping with your
injuries, helping with myinjuries.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
I came to yoga because of the body.
Yes, because the running haddone so much damage to my body
and I miss running.
It was, it was my like I wouldrun early.
You got the runner's high.
I got the runner's high.
I was that one Like I would getup at I love the 5 am 40 degree
runs, like I would go out tothe state park and I would run
you know six, seven, eight miles.

(09:18):
That was my piece.
That's what you love.
That's what helped.
I loved it, but it did a lot ofdamage to my body.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
It is hard on your body?

Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, because I didn't take care of my body.
If I had done yoga, then I'dstill be running.
Okay, right, good to know.
Yeah, like all you runners outthere, stretch, stretch it out
you got to take care of thosejoints the whole time.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Take care of the back .

Speaker 2 (09:40):
So I came because of a physical injury.
What I got out of yoga was somuch more yeah, and getting
quiet on the mat.
And boy was it hard, because Ihave an anxious mind and I you
know there were a lot ofinsecurities, but I learned to
get quiet and I learned tomeditate.
Mm-hmm.
And I stopped talking at God andstarted listening.

(10:01):
Yep, and all of the things thatyou hear about spirit in you,
divine in you started to makesense because if we get quiet,
that guide, that inner guide,will lead us where we need to go
.
And then things really didstart to change.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
And this is.
You're in your 40s, so have youmet your current husband yet or
no?
I have.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, okay, so you're in your 40s, so have you met
your current husband yet, or no,I have, yeah, I have Okay.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
So you're in your 40s , you've come to yoga, you've
come to meditation, your body'sfeeling better from all of that
and during this whole timeyou're working right.
I mean, you have.
She has a whole professionalcareer.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
Yeah, like project management, corporate world
stuff, all of the things I'vebeen in corporate America for 37
years.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
Okay, so this is all.
You're bringing this all intoyour life.
Yeah, okay, and then okay, soyou're remarried.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
Yep, you know, I said I would never get married again
.
But here I am.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yep, and then you're like no, I am getting married
again.
Yeah, okay, so then from there?
Where do we go in the spiritualjourney at that point?
Because is Mike?
Was he more religious, morespiritual?
When you met, where was he withall of this?

Speaker 2 (11:08):
Mike did not grow up in any kind of faith.
He didn't.
You know he, so he was veryopen to.
I would say his spiritualitycame from music, right?
Just that connection ofcreativity right.
So no, he wasn't.
One of the interesting thingsabout about that was as he got
to know more about my faith.

(11:29):
It opened up all, it helped meopen up to all those questions
again, all those ones that I had, like you know, shoved down as
a kid you know, like A few yearsinto yoga, I'm like I'm going
to go to teacher training.
And you go to teacher trainingand you know you read the
Bhagavad Gita and you read theseother spiritual texts.
Yes, Of course, that curiositykicked in, but for the first

(11:54):
time in my life, I hadpermission to explore it.
Explore all the things that Ihad learned to believe to be
afraid of or that it was wrong.
Yeah, learn to believe, to beafraid of or that it was wrong.
And so then I started readingall kinds of things and talking
to other people who were doingthe work right.
I found another thing shortlyafter going through that divorce

(12:15):
, I found a great therapist.
Perfect.
Yep, someone who also allowedspace for me to deconstruct.
Yep Everything also allowedspace for me to deconstruct Yep
Everything, all of those things,because one of the things, too,
about Christianity and I wantto be very cautious about what I
say now because some of mydearest friends are Christians-

(12:37):
Same.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
Most of my parents are still Christians.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
I am in no way bashing Christianity.
The Christian faith teacheslove and the Christian faith
teaches us to be in communityand it gives us a deep faith.
But, as with any spiritualteaching, there are times when
it's taken to an extreme, ohyeah, and those extremes do

(13:00):
damage right to your psyche.
And so I was very much raised inan environment where you know
you're not good enough.
You're not good enough unlessyou live this life in this way
and you check all the boxes andnothing you ever do will be good
enough.
And having the opportunity toexplore, to let go of all of

(13:23):
that and to really be curiousand get quiet and start
listening, then it started tochange some of the core beliefs
I had about myself, and then itstarted to change how I
interacted with people, and thenit started to change
friendships.
Then it starts to change howyou approach your everyday work

(13:44):
and in a beautiful way it waslike this beautiful, unfolding.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
And this is happening for you in your 40s.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
In my 40s.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, late 40s, in your late 40s.
And are you during this time,are you still attending church?
I was, okay, you're stillactively a part of the church
community.
I was, in whatever denomination, a Christian faith, okay, so
you probably did fill a pullbetween two worlds a little bit.
I did yeah, because at onepoint I think even you're like

(14:13):
what you call yourself in theyoga world has evolved, hasn't
it?
Yeah, because at one point youwere the praying yogi.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
Right, yeah, which I mean I love all the names, but I
can feel like a vibe of that.
There was probably some tensiongoing on.
Right, which I mean I love allthe names, but I can feel like a
vibe of that.
There was probably some tensiongoing on.
Right, yeah, absolutely yeah,because, honestly, I went to
church a long time too and youstart to see the people that are
supposed to be the mostfaithful in the church.
You're in, the church issupposed to be WWJD and

(14:42):
everything right, and they'renot.
I was so let down sometimes bythe actions of those that I had
held on a higher pedestalbecause of the religious part of
it, and it was like what aletdown and there were people
who attended no church.
I felt like impacting the worldin a bigger way and it was

(15:03):
confusing for me.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
It's confusing, right .
What's held to high esteem inthe church is, in my opinion,
like all the boxes you have tocheck off it's not sustainable
and it's not real.
It's hard to be authentic.
And, yeah, it's hard to beauthentic Because you're
always's hard to be authenticBecause you're always hiding

(15:26):
little parts of yourself andlittle beliefs that you may have
.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
Can you verbalize what maybe some of the biggest
struggles you have?
Is there an example you cangive people listening?
So I'll give you an example ofwhat I'm saying.
So for me, I could neverconnect with the condemnation of
the LGBTQ community.
I have a gay son, but this wasfar before I even knew my son
was gay.
I was always just like thisdoesn't make sense.
God is love.
These people are really goodpeople.

(15:55):
They're checking all the otherboxes.
How can this one box?
They're showing love foranother person, right?
They're in love and this worldis supposed to be about love.
Admittedly, once my son came outas a gay man, it hit me a
little harder.
It made me think a lot harderon that and that was one of
those big changing points for me, that it was like no, this

(16:17):
doesn't make sense.
This isn't the God.
I know this isn't the Jesus.
I know this isn't anyone.
I know this doesn't make senseto me.
So that kind of example.
Because even in the olden days,they used to use the Bible to
twist around to make interracialmarriage wrong, Right, Right,
and you're like what.
None of this has ever made senseto me, and to this day there

(16:39):
are still very religious sectsthat are against a lot of crazy
stuff.
So those type of things weresome of the ones for me that
were big ones, that were like Ican't be on board with that
anymore.
I can't be on board with peoplewho are thinking that anymore.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
Well, and I think it's an evolution.
So I will say there was a timewhere many, many years ago,
where I did believe that it wasa sin to be in the LGBT
community.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
I was in that spot too.
Yeah, I was in that spot in myearly 20s.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
You know what I mean, because I was so programmed by
my dad honestly, and it waslater in life, when you start to
evolve, and it's incongruentwith what love means, it's
incongruent with what acceptancemeans, and so many of those
things you described are truefor me too.
Probably the two areas I wouldadd.
Is the judgmental part of itright?

(17:30):
There's always the choices thatyou make, the behaviors that
you have, the life that you'reliving.
There's always this judgment ofother people.
But you know there's thisphrase, but for the grace of God
, there go.
I right, I have no right, noright whatsoever, to look at the
life you live, jen, and sayit's right or it's wrong, or the

(17:51):
decisions that you make, evenif you're going through a tough
time, even if you're makingdecisions that I don't
understand.
I don't walk in your shoes.
I haven't experienced thetrauma in your life?
I haven't.
I wasn't raised in the sameenvironment.
I don't know how you filterthrough things.
Right and the same for me, likeno one knows what I've been
through in life.
Exactly.
And to the decisions I've made,or right, wrong or indifferent,

(18:15):
or I've done a lot of crazythings in my life and I've had a
lot of challenges, but I lookback and I wouldn't change not
one, not one.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
Well, it just led you to where you are right now.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
Well, at least it's an unfolding of your soul, right
?
It's an unfolding of who youreally are.
And I truly believe in thisidea that, prior to choosing to
come to this life, we set withour tribe, our soul tribe, and
we set with the divine being andwe decide what is it that my
soul needs to learn in thislifetime?
And these are the things I'mgoing to experience in this

(18:49):
lifetime and when I come intothis human form, I forget that I
made those decisions in orderto experience all those things
and learn all those things?

Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yes, because we wouldn't roll through this like
the same if we knew Right,exactly, yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
So my soul chose to learn this, and my soul is
unfolding in each of those witheach of those experiences.
And just getting to a pointwhere I could verbalize that and
say that out loud was aconflict at one point.
For sure, because that's notnecessarily what the Christian
faith teaches us right?

Speaker 1 (19:23):
No, not at all.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
And so judgment is a big one, Judgment is a big one
and that it's the only true way,Like it's the only truth.
Yeah.
And I've come to believe thatthere is a lot of truth in the
Bible and Christianity.
There is a lot of truth aboutthe divine being.
However, it's one group ofpeople's attempt at sharing

(19:50):
their experience of the divine.
In different cultures there'sdifferent experiences with the
divine, different vocabularythey use to articulate that
experience and differentpractices they use to connect.
And the more I learn, the morebeautiful it all is.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
Because there's far more similarities actually than
differences.
If we would just get all onboard Because I think that's a
big.
That's one of my biggest thingstoo is in Christianity there is
only one path back to God andto heaven.
There's only one path andthat's through Jesus.
And I think Jesus is amazing.
I just did my own little episoderecently about this, my beliefs

(20:29):
, but I don't think that hemeant for us to worship him the
way we are and to decide this isthe only way to God.
Think about God, you guys.
Think about God and how manymillions, billions of years
things have existed by hismaking his, her, I don't care.
I think there's feminine andmasculine to God anyway, so call

(20:54):
it whatever you want.
It's logistics to me, but sothat he would own that, he would
go this whole time and we'vehad lots of religions and
different things popping up overall these millions of billions
of years.
Right To say that there's justone, one person he sent, and if
you don't check every box, thatnot, not that Jesus gave us, he

(21:18):
didn't give us those boxes, okay, the people that came after him
, that made this religion inalmost a political type way.
This is all just my opinion youguys, that's where the boxes
came that we have to check.
I don't think they came fromJesus.
I think Jesus is amazing and Ithink we should WWJD the shit
out of everything, because if wecould be more like he was

(21:39):
during his lifetime, as he grewand evolved throughout his
lifetime and did so much andtaught us so much Cool Like.
I'm on board with that.
But I am not on board with ifyou don't check all the boxes
that the Christian churchdecided we have to check, you're
going to burn in the depths ofhell.
That I can't get on board with,because I've met far too many.
The further we get in our lifeand meet more people and visit

(22:01):
more places, we realize theseare a lot of amazing people in
completely different religions,no religion whatever.
For me to say that God is goingto banish them to hell because
they didn't read the rightscriptures, they didn't check
the boxes of what other humansdecided they should check, that
makes zero sense to me.

(22:21):
And.
I was in that place because Iwas raised that way, yeah.
I was in that place for a verylong time.
Same Right Same.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
Like no, and I want to bring it kind of bring this
back into the yoga journey forme right, yeah.
So, as I continue down the pathof yoga, yoga teaching and
mindfulness teaching, first ofall, you teach a lot of what you
experience, right Likesometimes you teach what you go
through.
But as I did that, more andmore friendships that had been

(22:55):
long-term friendships started toget strained.
Yes, because there was thisuncomfortableness with it being
not what they believed.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
Yeah, because they were very strong.
They were still in a place ofstrong, strong, strong in their
belief, and it probably feltlike they weren't checking the
boxes by having you as theirfriend, right yeah.
So what would you say to that,like, what's the best way to
deal with when some of thosethings start happening during
deconstruction, like lostfriendships or strained family
relationships?

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Okay, so one of my favorite quotes is an Albert
Einstein question.
One of the biggest decisionsthat we make in life is whether
or not the universe has goodintentions towards you.
Yeah, you live your life, youdisplay behaviors, knowing,
based on that belief.
If, whether or not the universehas good intentions towards you
, and think about the elementaryteaching of Christian faith yes

(23:53):
, I've been there.
If you aren't good enoughunless you accept Jesus Christ
as your Savior and you live infear of going to hell, Always in
fear so you're always in fearand you're always worried about
the judgment.
So imagine the difference ofliving 40 plus years of my life

(24:13):
that way versus the last decadein freedom.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
In freedom and knowing that God's universe is
on your side.
God has good intentions towardme.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yes, the divine has good intentions.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yes, and you are worthy regardless if you check
none of the boxes.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
And so the deconstruction does come with
relationships that fall away,and I have no ill feelings for
those relationships.
I still love those people verymuch.
It's a grief, it's a grievingprocess and it's about release
and surrender, I think, and asyou embrace who you are, you

(24:56):
start to find a new tribe.
Mm-hmm, yeah, if I had a choice, I wouldn't have wanted those
people that are no longer partof my life.
They're irreplaceable.
Yeah.
And they were decades offriendship and decades of shared
experiences.

(25:17):
If I had my choice, they wouldstill be in my life, yeah, but
I've learned.
There's a beautiful unfoldingin all of that.
And as my soul unfolds and Istart to live out what I was
brought here to do, then thereare people that come into your
life, like my wonderful husband,who accept and embrace and love

(25:41):
and encourage and walkalongside you.
Yeah, there's a peace there.
There's a heartache, butthere's a peace.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
So it's really just making peace with the fact that,
perhaps because you may havehad soul contracts with all
these people Exactly, and thatmay have just that part of the
life with them, it came to anend.
And that doesn't mean that whenwe return to the other side,
and God's love, we won't all beback together again anyway,
exactly, because we'll all knowall the things again.

Speaker 2 (26:10):
Right, no one's going to be fighting about anything
Like that's those soul contractswere made in those decisions
before I came in this human form.
And you know, I don't know ifyou've, if if you've ever read
the books the Oversoul, ofJourney, 7.
The.
Oversoul.
I have not the Journey ofOversoul 7.
It just, it's a beautiful book,but the author of that book

(26:31):
also read a children's book andI think it's called the Little
Soul.
But in that children's book,the Little Soul, there's these
two little souls that aretalking about.
They're basically their soulcontractor.
And the one soul says to theother I will do this for you, I
will come into this life, I willdo this for you, but I may
forget who I am in order to doit.

(26:53):
And just kind of this inferencethat you know I need to play
this role for you in this life,but I'm going to forget who I am
in order to play that role,just means that on the other
side, they're going to come backand I believe that there's a
reunion of sorts For sure.
Yeah, that is okay.

Speaker 1 (27:10):
I played that role in your life because I love you
and I'm part of your eternalsoul tribe right, yes, and I
knew you need to learn thoselessons Exactly, and maybe some
of our friendships and some ofour family relationships might
get lost in this lifetime, but Ithink they'll all renew again.
If they're soul contract people, they're part of our tribe, I
believe that too?

Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah, I believe that too, and sometimes they come
back in this lifetime in adifferent way.
And if that happens, I'llembrace it for sure.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
For sure, because one of your past friends or
whatever.
They may head down their ownjourney and have their own
realizations and be like oh, Ithink that might've been onto
something.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yeah, and maybe so yeah, and and that's okay or not
?
And that's okay too.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah, yeah, oh there's, yeah, there's a lot
going on.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
And I think one of the interesting things is that
whole there's peace and there'sgrief.
One of the things I've learnedas I get older is the life
experiences that we walk through.
Is that there's room in yourlife for both opposite?

Speaker 1 (28:19):
emotions, right, because the grief and the
hardships become veryoverwhelming.
It's hard to see through toanything else when that's going
on, right.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
And those things.
So that would have been.
That was like two years ago.
So that series of grief thatwas, you know, just after, just
as I was recovering from thebrain tumor.
Okay, we haven't even told theworld about this.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
No, Okay, so you're strung along on this spiritual
journey.
Yes, and how long ago did thishappen?
2020.
2020.
Boy 2020 was a doozy in a lotof different ways, wasn't?
It, it was it was, so tell usabout that part of the journey.
So this is like five years ago.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
Five years ago.
So you know, at this point I'mreally unfolding and was
teaching a lot.
And then you know, covidhappens right.
It was a beautiful day and wedecided to go for a drive and we
found a house.
So you know, people talk aboutCOVID pets.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
We bought a COVID house, covid house, yeah, covid
house.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
But it was interesting.
So it's on the river and wemake that move.
We found the house in April, wemoved in June and in May I'm
working you know, working athome and I have a headset
because I'm on video conferencesall day and I will turn the
headset from one side to theother because you know the ear
gets a little thing.
And so one random day like I,switched it to my left ear and

(29:43):
everything sounded like it wasunderwater.
I could not understand whatpeople were saying.
I'm like what the heck is this?
So you know, a couple of dayslater, I finally make a doctor's
appointment, because it's justannoying me enough.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
Well, yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
And I go to the doctor and the doctor's like oh,
it's allergies and your ear isfull of fluid.
We're going to give you someallergy medicine, some steroids,
we're going to get rid of thatand it's going to be okay.
So I'm taking the allergymedicine, we move in June and
the allergies get better, butthe hearing never came back.
So it was still this everybodysounds like they're underwater.
And then I started to losebalance.

(30:18):
I would be in warrior one and Iwould stumble out.
It's like okay, what's going?

Speaker 1 (30:23):
on here.
It's a little weird.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
And then our youngest sons came into the house and I
tripped over my own feet andhe's like Ma, you've been
tipping the bottle a littleearly today, right Like teasing
me.
And so there's these weirdlittle things.
And then I go through thisperiod of intense vertigo for a
couple of weeks where it was sobad I was literally laying in
bed working because the worldwas spinning.

(30:46):
So they refer me to a ear, noseand throat doctor.
They do all the things.
You've lost 50% hearing in yourear and I'm like, but overnight
, like it was literallyovernight, the hearing loss.
There's different things thatthis could be.
So we're going to do some bloodtests because there's

(31:07):
autoimmune diseases that can dothis.
I'm like, oh, it's probablyautoimmune disease because I
have one, so you know if youhave one sometimes you get a
whole bag full Yep.
Yep, you get a whole bag full.
So I'm no worries, no concerns,we're moving through life Right
and the blood tests come backand there's no autoimmune
disease.
So we're going to send you foran MRI.
Then it's a Friday afternoonand I'm sitting at home working

(31:30):
and the phone rings and I pickit up at the doctor's office and
they're like hey, we have theresults of your test and you
have a brain tumor called anacoustic neuroma, a vestibular
schwannoma.
And I'm like you're telling methis over the phone.
I was like what doctor tells youto have a brain tumor over the
phone.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
I was actually thinking you were going to say.
They said can you come in?
We should talk about theresults?

Speaker 2 (31:49):
No, they tell me over the phone.
Oh shit, I'm like wait whatdoctor does that?

Speaker 1 (31:53):
That's a lot.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
Yeah, these are typically benign brain tumors,
but we're going to refer you upto Rush for further evaluation.
And so vestibular schwannomathey call it acoustic neuroma
it's a brain tumor that nuzzlesbetween your brainstem, your
vestibular nerve, your facialnerve and your auditory.
It's not very big, but as itgrows, it puts pressure.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
It's going to make problems for all kinds of things
.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
So, as it puts pressure on your vestibular
nerve, you start to use balance,and that's where the vertigo
and the balance is coming from.
And then also, as it gets bigger, it starts to put pressure on
your brainstem, which alsoimpacts your bodily controls.
So my husband and I talk aboutit and we chose not to share it

(32:35):
for a while because we wanted tolearn more about it.
We wanted to learn what wereour options.
What is it going to do longterm?
You mean, you didn't headstraight to Facebook.
I did not.
I'm kidding, I did not.
I'm kidding, I did not.
And, as a matter of fact, Idon't even think I put anything
on Facebook about it until oneyear post-surgery.

(32:57):
Yeah, yeah, and so we went upto Rush and got connected with
this amazing neurosurgeon,mm-hmm, and so he gave us all of
our options we could watch andwait, we could do a radiation
and or we could do surgery, andoftentimes, if it comes back

(33:19):
after radiation, it comes backmalignant.
Oh, so that was an immediatelike.
I'm not taking any chances thatit's coming back malignant
Right.

Speaker 3 (33:25):
So that was an immediate like I'm not taking
any chances that it's comingback malignant right.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
So we immediately discounted that as an option,
and so it really the options waswatch and wait or take it out
via surgery and you know wespent some time talking about it
and the question I asked thesurgeon was one if it was your
wife, what would you tell her todo?
And he said I would tell mywife to take it out.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
Well, because if you're just going to sit around,
drive yourself nuts waiting,just end up doing surgery anyway
.
Right, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Well, and the other thing is, as it grows and as it
puts more pressure, that I don'twant to all of a sudden lose my
you know ability to walk, orlose my ability to use an arm,
or lose my ability to controlmyself.
Right.
So I didn't want any of that.
So we made the choice to takeit out.
And that's when we shared itwith the family, yeah, and

(34:17):
that's when we shared it withthe kids and my folks and my
sister and a few close people.
And so we scheduled a tumorremoval to be in November and
it's COVID, so Mike can't comewith me.
Ah, like terrible timing, right, right, yeah.
So, and there's unknowns inthis surgery, so unknown I

(34:40):
didn't know if.
I knew I would lose hearing.
So I am single-sided hearing.
Now.
I didn't know if I would havefacial paralysis.
That is a common side effect ofthe procedure.
Also, there is a loss of taste.
I was very lucky.
Even when I woke up fromsurgery, I had complete control

(35:01):
over my face, perfect.
So I don't have any kind ofparalysis in my face, but I
don't I'm single sighted hearing.
I don't taste out of one sideof my mouth, which was an
interesting thing to get used to.

Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
But when you wake up from this surgery, think of the
worst possible case of vertigo.
You could Like you've been on aroller coaster doing slips and
flicks, like take whatever youcan, and it was multiplied by a
hundred Like as soon as I openedmy mouth, as soon as I opened
my eyes from surgery, I wasvomiting Vomiting, I'm sure, and

(35:36):
it took.
You know, they say the bestthing you can do for this is
walk, walk, walk.
And it was November and so Iwalked.
I remember calculating my walksbetween November and January of
that year I walked over ahundred miles because, they said
, the best way to get yourvestibular system under control

(35:57):
is to be up and moving.
And our vestibular systemcounts on a few different things
our sight, our ears and ourfeet.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
Okay, so you get your feet moving, you get your feet
moving, so they all worktogether.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
Okay.
And they have like there's,like you know, mind I don't know
if you've ever done a walkingmeditation yeah, so that really
came into play because thatwhole idea of touching the heel,
then the ball of the foot andthen the toes as you're walking,
like really paying attention tothat as you're walking, it
helped to reset my vestibularsystem.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
I was out there in the snow and the ice, and my
boots and my hat, just walking,walking.
I walked a lot.
So during this time in 2020,spiritual journey-wise, you are
where Are you still heavilyattending church?
Are you doing your own thing atthat point?
Were you meditating a lot thenwhat was happening in 2020
during this time of your surgery?

Speaker 2 (36:47):
So we had slowly started to pull away, and so
that surgery was pivotal forseveral reasons.
The first time I tried to go tochurch, the sound and the
lights were so overwhelming tomy sensory system it triggered a
migraine right away.
So I was like I cannot.

Speaker 1 (37:05):
I can't attend anymore.
I can't attend that I can't goto that.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
But also it was a very withdrawn period of time,
not in a negative way, but itwas.
I spent a lot of time at homeby the fires, with everything
off, because watching TV was wasoverwhelming.
You know, listening to musicwas overwhelming and.
I would have to listen to itreally low and it had to be
really soft meditative stylemusic, and so a lot of

(37:30):
meditation, a lot of reading, alot of just you know, it's what
I call my version of prayer now.
Just really, I listen more thanI talk.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
You know, I'm like divine, here's what's going on,
and then I just listen, yeah,okay.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
So do you differentiate your prayer for
meditation now, or do you justmeditate and call it this?
It's all one experience for you.
I mostly meditate, yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
But there are times when things get big and I just
like talk to the divine about it.
I'm like I'm really strugglingwith this grief today.
So, can you?
I'm going to, I'm going tomeditate.
Now Can you just give me alittle peace?
And that actually is newer,because for a long time I just

(38:16):
would meditate and I stoppedsort of the prayer, end of it,
or the talking too, because Iwas absorbing so much.
But now there's more, there's alittle bit more of a balance.
There's both ways.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
So because for me I think prayer is more when I do
more of the talking andconversation, and then
meditation is more listening forthe answers.
Yeah Right, so in my mindthere's still some
differentiation, very different,yeah, that they're a little bit
different for me, but really inmeditation I'm still
conversational.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (38:46):
A little bit, but I mostly, I would say, prayer is
when we talk to God, andmeditation is when we shut up
and listen.
We shut up and listen back.
Yeah, so it's a whole process,and when you shut up and listen,
it is amazing what you hear.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
It really is, I know so do you feel like in
meditation for you?
What do you feel most connectedwith?
Because I connect with myhigher self a lot.
I connect with my spirit guides, I connect with my angels, I
connect with God, I connect withthe ascended masters like Jesus
, like.
Do you feel a strong connectionto any one thing when you're
meditating?
Have you met spirit guides?
Who have you met in?

Speaker 2 (39:21):
there.
So, first of all, I connectwith ancestors a lot.
Okay, I have a beautiful storyabout two beautiful stories I
want to share with you.
And then the other is there isdefinitely a connection to
higher self and divine.
Yeah, I was struggling toconnect with guides for a while.
What I'm finding about myguides is many of them are
connected to me in a familialline, right, okay, so one of the

(39:44):
things that you learn in yogais that your body holds trauma.
Yes, it holds trauma, andmovement is one of the ways that
we get that stuck energy moving.
There's so many modalities, youknow.
You've talked about Reiki,you've talked about sound
healing and in some of yourother episodes, some of the
other healers that have come on,movement is one of those
modalities that helps get thatenergy out.

(40:06):
But our bodies remember andsometimes the things our bodies
remember aren't from this life.
They're not ours.
They're not ours Because thinkabout it You're held for all
that time in your mother's womband she has all of these traumas
that she's held on to and allthe way down through our whole
line Right.
Our bodies remember Yep Rightand that was a beautiful release

(40:29):
in that meditation.
And then you know it wasinteresting to see the body move
differently after that in thenext yoga session that I did for
myself.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
Yeah, okay, so there was changes made during that
meditation.
There was a release.
There was a release.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
So there's one of your episodes.
You interviewed Amy Craver.
Yeah, one of my.
Love her, love her.
Yeah, and she does the QHHTsessions.
Yes, yes.
Done those Love them.
Yep.
So she shared a story in one ofthose episodes with you.
It was my story, it was you, itwas me.
So she shared a story in one ofthe sessions so she took me

(41:10):
back.
I was a Native American girl andI was sick the last day of my
life.
I was sick and my father was.
I could tell he was somethingin the tribe, like a healer or
an elder of some kind, yeah, andhe was weeping over me as I
passed.
There was such a deepconnection, such a deep love.

(41:33):
That was super healing for me,because I haven't.
My dad is wonderful, but it'sbeen a strange relationship in
this life.
I get it, so that was a veryhealing to feel in that lifetime
of love and cherish and fastforward, like we're in this QHHT
session, and there's a pointwhere she asks about my

(41:56):
grandfather in this life.
And I was like same, he's thesame, and so that hawk was the
father's name in that life.
Oh my goodness, he was mygrandfather in this life.
It was the same soul.
Oh.
And it was one of the mostbeautiful experiences of healing

(42:18):
.
Yeah, because not only wasthere this deep experience of
fatherly love in that moment,but to know that that soul is so
tied to me, that we weretogether in this life and my
grandfather in this life I wasvery close to.
Yes, right, so it was abeautiful thing.
So, taking this all back to2020, right, like 2020 and the

(42:40):
meditation after the brain tumor, that's when we just stopped
going to church shortly afterthat, altogether, yeah, and then
I gave myself even morepermission to explore and, you
know, doing some of the QHHTsessions and the Reiki sessions?

Speaker 1 (42:58):
Yeah, just different things, yeah, yeah, yeah,
absolutely.
And so do you have regularvisitors during meditation now?
Do you have anyone I talk oftenAlways with you?
Okay, do you have regularvisitors during meditation now?
Do you have anyone I hawk oftenAlways with you?
Okay, so you're very connected,very connected, yeah, and so,
oh, very cool story about thishawk.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
So shortly before that session with Amy I was.
You know, we live out by theriver and we have eagles and
hawks that are all over theplace, yep.
And shortly after we moved in,I came downstairs one day,
looked out the window and therewas this hawk in my front yard
who had captured a squirrel.
And then I see him all the time.

(43:34):
Well, it was probably I kid younot within a week of that
particular QHHT session with her.
I'm in the kitchen making mycoffee and I look out the
sliding glass door and there isa hawk perched on our deck.
He's on the deck railing andhe's just staring at me and so

(43:56):
you know in that QHT session Iknow he's with me when I see a
hawk, so whenever I see a hawk,I know, and so there'll be days
now that I'm like oh man, I'mjust really struggling.
It's a day, or hey, hawk, Ihaven't seen or felt you in a
while and I'll look up andthere's one flying Right.
Oh, that's so cool.
And something also veryinteresting is, you know, there

(44:19):
was a couple of weeks back I wasin the studio you know recently
opened, just kind of doing somedecorating and cleaning, and I
felt him.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
Right there with you, right there with me.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
And I was like thank you, Thank you for being here.
Right, I know?

Speaker 1 (44:36):
Yeah, Because I feel like we always have them with us
.
It's just do we slow down andquiet ourselves enough to feel
it and know that they're there?

Speaker 2 (44:45):
And my maternal grandmother is another.
She's definitely a guide andshe shows up in my dreams.
She shows up in my meditationsand little things like I'll walk
through the kitchen and I'llsmell her, yeah, and I'm like
because there's a distinct.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
There's a distinct smell.
For grandma I have the samething.
Yeah, because my maternalgrandmother too has been coming
through a lot and she same thing.
There's just a very a smell, avibe, but I don't know if it's
from that generation or just howwe remember it in this lifetime
or what, but it is verydistinct Because my grandma used
to always rub the Pond's coldcream all over her face.

(45:20):
So that has a distinct smell tome, Like any time.
I smell something like kind ofrosy, like that creamy.
I think of her.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
My grandma used to use back in the day, avon.
You remember that.
Oh yeah, my grandma used to usea particular Avon cream and I
well, I'm sure that Avon doesnot make that anymore.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
Probably not no, but.
I think, she, my grandma, hadlike a.
It was like an Avon hand cream,yeah, hand cream, and so.

Speaker 2 (45:43):
I'll, I'll smell that or I'll smell.
You know, her kitchen had avery distinct smell and I'll,
I'll smell and I'm like, oh hey,grandma, how you doing.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
Yeah, you know, yeah, no, that makes total sense, all
right.
So the actual brain tumor andsurgery really kind of
catapulted you further into yourjourney.
You were in it, but it reallywas like, okay, you were kind of
up in your game then all of asudden.
So what I'm getting out of yourspiritual journey, or what I'm
feeling like a lot of peoplemight be connecting with, is

(46:14):
partially this religiondeconstruction, because it is a
very big part of a spiritualjourney for those of us who were
raised in a very strictreligion that had all those
boxes we had to check.
So do you have any more tips orways we can support ourselves
through that?

Speaker 2 (46:33):
Find a good therapist who has experience with
spiritual deconstruction orreligious deconstruction or
religious trauma.
Yeah, mentor helps A mentorhelps for sure, a good therapist
helps for sure, and it's adelicate balance.
To not be angry.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
Yeah, you're going to go through anger.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
So you're going to go through anger for sure, but you
know, to keep in mind thatChristians aren't bad people.
No, because part of this beingopen is open to everyone, Right
right and you know I really holdon to the people that I know
and love, who are in theChristian community, and I still
love them.
Everyone has good intentions.
I mean if you think about.

(47:12):
the intention behind the messageis they want every human to
make their way into heaven.
And at the core of it, at thecore, they want what's best for
everyone.
They want what's best, the core.
They want what's best foreveryone.
They want what's best Now, howthat's taught and how that's
passed on, and the boxes thatare required and those kinds of
things, those things that you'reprogrammed with right.

(47:32):
It's a matter of having grace,and moving through it gracefully
is hard.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
So when you're in that anger period, because I was
in the anger period for alittle bit too during it.
Do you think it's best to justgo within and disconnect for a
while till you figure it out, or?
Because you don't want theanger to head out into the world
, necessarily, but you got toget it out.
You got to get it out.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
I spent some time with a therapist.
Journaling was a big part of it.
Journaling, yeah.
You know, maybe one day that'llbe a book, I don't know.
Thoughts and feelings out, yeah, but getting that journaling
out and, if you can rememberthat, assume positive intent.
I'm not angry at these friendsthat have decided that it's not
good for them to be in my lifeanymore because I'm not in that

(48:15):
faith the way I used to be.
I'm not angry at them by anystretch of the imagination.
I know they still love me.
But were you angry at them alittle bit.
I was hurt, I was devastatedand there are times I get a
little angry.
But I think when I get to thatangry point I go back to, this
is going to come out in a waythat sounds so condescending,
and I don't mean it to be.

(48:35):
They don't know anything.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
Yeah, that's what I was going to give them grace,
but also just to validateeverybody out there.
You're still going to be pissedoff Because for me personally
to say that I have no angertowards someone who thinks my
son's going to burn in hell,there's anger.
Yeah, absolutely yeah, there'sfucking anger, but also they're
in a different place.

(49:03):
They're not going to be part ofmy life.
I have that decision to make.
Sure, okay, and I don't have toparticipate.
That and I need to work againstthat.
Yes, I do, that's part of acalling, but I also don.
Yeah, I was angry.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
I'm putting that out there.
I'm not saying in any way shapeor form I wasn't With these
couple of particular friends.
Are there moments I get angrybecause I feel like after 35
years of friendship, do Ideserve more?

Speaker 1 (49:37):
Well, because in your mind you're also thinking
where's my grace, Where's mygrace, Where's mine?

Speaker 2 (49:41):
And where's that love and grace that is preached,
right, yeah, but I alsounderstand that, for whatever
reason, it's a threat toeverything they hold and believe
.
Yes, and so I want to havegrace for that idea of

(50:07):
Christianity was when I realizedthat core thing that I have
always struggled with my wholelife, that has shaped the
decisions I've made, that haveshaped the men I chose in my
life, was I'm not good enough,came from Christianity.
I was and still am.
If you can see the look on myface, I'm furious about that,
because you're taught thatyou're brought into this world

(50:27):
sinful and not good enough, sothat your very existence isn't
good enough, unless you followthis protocol right, unless you
accept Christ as your Savior.
I look at my children and Iremember the day they came into
this world and I think howperfect they were.
How can you believe this infantis anything other than perfect?

Speaker 1 (50:52):
Exactly, and I think that that correlates with when
we're born.
That's exactly what God'sthinking.
We're perfect.
Right, he didn't have these bigexpectations for it.
I mean, there's a plan in placeexpectations for it.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
I mean, there's a plan in place, but a plan that
you and I helped develop in oursoul tribe, and those things
have become so healing for me.
You know, years ago, when Ilearned the idea of the soul
tribe, when I learned the ideaof a soul contract, and then,
like it makes sense, and youknow what, the idea of a soul
contract is not independent ofChristian teaching, right,
christian teaching teaches usthat.

(51:28):
There's this whole argument inChristianity, depending on your
faith, whether it'spredestination or
predetermination, right?
So there's somepredetermination in the life
that we live because we chose it, because we sat down with our
soul, tried it and the divine,and we decided what our soul
needed in this lifetime.
And again, it's a beautifulunfolding of what the soul is
learning and becoming.
And so, like I think sometimesthat's the part where the anger,

(51:49):
like my blood pressure is justgoing up, like thinking about
that, but that idea that you're.
So nothing is good enough, and Ithink this is true for women
anyway.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
That's a core for us Somehow, our value and just even
the stigma of not checking backand going to hell if you get
divorced.
So there's a lot of women inreligion staying in a very
unhealthy place because of thisdoctrine they've been taught.
I'm just validating everyone'sanger.
I don't want you to think thatbecause it can be hard to be

(52:21):
angry, because then you're like,oh, your old doctrine comes in.
You're like, oh, it's got madat me now for being angry about
this.
No, that's part of the process,you guys.
You're going to be angry andthen you're going to come out
the other side with a little bitbetter understanding and then
you give more people grace afterthat.
That's why I was saying duringthat anger phase you want to
find people you can console in.
But it's probably best to pullback from those people you're

(52:43):
angry with, from it.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
Because you don't.
You don't want to right becauseyou don't want to.
You don't want to live in anger.
No, it's not healthy for anyoneright.
Too much negativity, and here'sthe other thing you got to make
room for that.
One of the things I learnedyears and years ago I actually
learned this at a Christianwomen's conference decades ago
was that anger is a secondaryemotion.
Why are you angry?

(53:05):
I do believe there's righteousanger, right?
Yes, like you know.
Yes, there's righteous anger,but there's also, most of the
time, anger is a secondaryemotion.
It is how we've learned toexpress frustration Sometimes,
how we've learned to expressdisappointment.
Yeah, because we aren't giventhe vocabulary to describe our

(53:28):
emotions, so it's taking thetime to sit with the anger.
Allow yourself to be angry in ahealthy way.
You know what.
Go to a rage room.

Speaker 1 (53:37):
Do something, do something.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
You got to get it out .

Speaker 1 (53:38):
Just maybe not on the people you're angry, just not
on the people you're angry Findother modalities like music, art
, creativity, other ways to letsome stuff out.
Or you know, like you said, atherapist, someone in confidence
who you can let your feelingsout to at the time.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
Yeah, and for me, writing was a thing Like I used
to this when I was a teenager.
When I would be angry at my dad, I would write, write, write
terrible things, and then Iwould just rip it up and burn it
.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
Yeah, write terrible things, and then I would just
rip it up and burn it, yeah, andget rid of it, yeah, at least
it got out of your system alittle bit, yeah, and so
sometimes the writing, theprocess, one, it's a physical
exercise so you can write withlike fiercity, right you?
Can just like scribble it out,it can be an ugly handwriting
whatever you want.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
Really press on that number two and you can say
whatever you want.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
Yeah, let me ask you one more thing about this
religious deconstruction process.
How long did it take you fromwhen you first felt it to when
you could verbally let peopleknow your true feelings?
Because, like you said, you hadone foot on either side for a
while.
You were attending church, youwere meditating, you were
exploring the other side,because that's a hard part for
us too.
When do we know we're at thatpoint where it's time to

(54:48):
verbalize and come into our ownauthentically and not care what
everybody else thinks?

Speaker 2 (54:54):
So Wow, that's a loaded question.
So let me tell you that itstarted 2018 and it started as I
was working with my therapistlearning to draw boundaries.
You know, we all have womenespecially.
We can't draw boundaries.
So I was trying to learn tohold boundaries and then I

(55:19):
started to figure out part ofthe reason I couldn't hold
boundaries was because of thesebeliefs that I held, yeah and I.
So it became evolution.
I started and then, of course,with the exploration of yoga and
all of the other things thatcome with that.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Yeah, everything came in.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
And luckily I had a divine intervention.
Whatever, I have a wonderfulhome life with a man who my
husband, is my best friend, soyou were in the right place to
do this now.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
I was in the right place, I had a nurturing
environment, because 10 yearsprior, you wouldn't have been in
the right place to do any ofthis.

Speaker 2 (55:48):
No, I wouldn't have been so it's timing and being
able to process that at home wasimportant, and having someone
who was willing to walk throughthat with me walk through that
with me.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
He was willing to explore.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
Yeah, he was willing to sit in that with you and not
contradict everything you said,no judgment and ask me questions
and really be curious and helpme think, and so sharing it at
home with my husband was prettymuch right away as I started to
realize this.
Yeah, and I will tell you thatI've only vocalized it to my
sister, and my parents have kindof been along for the journey,
so they kind of get it.
Yeah, to my sister, and myparents have kind of been along

(56:21):
for the journey, so they kind ofget it.
My husband, a few neighborfriends that are really close to
us For a long time, I felt like, does it really even matter
that I say it out loud, becauseif I don't say it out loud it
doesn't necessarily have to comeup in conversation?
No, right, like.
But when I, about a year and ahalf ago, I went for a walk with

(56:55):
one of my closest friends andsaid it out loud and this was
the, I feel like, since that wasthe hardest person and that
conversation's done, then it'sokay.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
This sounds like we're helping Beth today all of
us, you guys Come out of herlittle spiritual closet.
Yeah, I'm coming out of myspiritual closet today.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
She's coming out of her spiritual closet.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
Yay Well, I'm honored that you're here to do this
with me, because it's very hard,and I know that because this
podcast has enabled me, throughmy journey, to say these things
out loud to the world.
Ok, there are people in othercountries listening to us right
now, hearing all of this, and Ithink that's inspiring, because

(57:34):
there's a lot of people sittingin their closet saying I think
all these things, I know allthese things to be true to me,
but how do I let my friends andfamily and loved ones know that
this is how I feel?

Speaker 2 (57:44):
For the most part, people know, because they see
the difference, they feel thevibe, they see the difference.
You know, I always say one ofmy friends, my hippie is coming
out, my hippie dippy is comingout, and one of my neighbors
says to me honey, your hippiedippy has been out for a long
time.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
Maybe you just didn't know that.
Yeah, we all knew that.
Yeah, a lot of people areprobably already like yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
They figured out?
I think they figured out by theway you live changes, the way
you interact with people changesthe things that you do change
that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
We don't have to go profess everything all over the
world and start some you knowtour.
People will just see the changein you.
They do.
They'll start to see it.
They'll start to feel it whenthey're around you.
Yeah, and then at some pointyou will be brave enough to say,
in a group setting orindividual setting with a friend
or family member, they may saysomething and you're like you
know what?
I just don't really agree withthat anymore.
Yeah, one of the things.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
I will tell you that was a real, like freeing moment
in the journey is I have afriend he's been to lots of
different places in the world asa missionary and he was a
spiritual mentor, a Christianmentor to me and a few friends,
and he started asking questionsabout my yoga journey, and then
he would share a little thinghere, I would share a little

(58:55):
thing there, and then somehow wegot on the topic of I was doing
Reiki.
I had gotten my Reikicertification and I was doing
Reiki, and we talked about thata little bit and he's like, oh
yeah, you know, my wife and Ihave done that and I was like
really Like what?
Yeah, well, and then he's like,have you ever seen a shaman?

(59:15):
And I was like like, who areyou?
What happened?
Yeah, so over time, like we kindof figured out, we were in the
same place and he, he actuallycame out, he did a video of
himself describing his journeyand sent it to his friends and
family and so they couldunderstand it.

(59:37):
And that actually helped meopen the door to have the really
hard conversation with one ofmy closest friends, who I knew
would be hard.
Yeah, but it's that has.
It has been freeing and becauseyou.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
There may be people that you think have no woo-woo
going on at all and they do yeah, they're in the same little
closet.
You are yeah.
And then it is really coolbecause I've had that happen for
me too where all of a suddenyou're like, wait, what'd you
say?
Yeah, this little terminology,little things you use once
you're a switcher.
You're like, oh wait, no, she'son the path, like she's on the
journey too.
I can tell yeah.

(01:00:11):
So it's like I mean yeah, forsure.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
So things like and you'll notice like even through
this discussion, I tend to usedivine over God.

Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
Now, yeah, and oftentimes Because that feels
what's comfortable for you.
Now it's comfortable.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
Saying God.
For a long time I didn't evenuse God at all, because it was
Because it brings you back toyour core Right and now.
I can Now I can use that, butfor me, for me, most of the time
God comes out as she.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
Okay, yeah, just because I've said God, my whole
life and what I feel God ishasn't changed for me, right?
I didn't change who I believein and all of that.
So for me that word has justalways been fine.
Yeah, and I say he out of habit, but in my mind I don't see a
man.
No, right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Right, I actually and I don't necessarily always see
a woman.
I think that she is.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
I just feel because it's God.
I mean, it's not a man or woman?

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
It's masculine, it's all that is yeah Well, and
that's supported in the Bible.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Yes, and all the texts from different religions.
We all call it somethingdifferent.
I think that's human logistics.
I think it's all the same.
Yeah, because you will start inyour spiritual everyone on
their journey.
It's okay to be in yourspiritual closet for as long as
you need to be, until you get tothat place.
There is no rush to come outand tell the world what new
things are popping up for you,because you're doing the work.
You're in that hermit phase,that pissed off phase.
There's a lot of phases you gotto go through and I'm still in

(01:01:32):
a phase now.
I don't think they ever end.
So don't ever think there's acompletion to the path.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
No, no, yeah, completion to the path?
No, no, it's, it's, yeah, youknow I.
You feel like you're in a goodplace and you're.
You feel like you've, you'vemade it through this phase, and
then they're like, oh crap,there's more.
Then you go, there's more, yousee someone or you go somewhere.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
And it stirs something up for you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
You're, you're triggered.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
And.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
I again here.
I am using those words, butyou're like damn, yeah, like I
thought I worked through that,but I'm real pissed again.
I'm real pissed and you knowthat will happen sometimes, Like
you know, for instance, veryrecently, a dear, dear friend
that I hadn't been in touch within a while but she passed away
of cancer and you know, going toher funeral in church, yeah, it

(01:02:17):
was hard, yeah it was hard, itwasn't hard to be there for her
family.
That's not part, wasn't parthard.

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
But the hard part was that no, but you're saying
because sometimes, when I haveattended church-like events
since my mind has wrapped aroundall this, I've been on this
journey and you hear differentpeople during prayer, during
things, saying certain things.
You're like you just take asigh, like that isn't right it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
You just take a sigh like that isn't right.
It's like I don't.
You know the mental damage thatyou're doing.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
Yeah, like, stop saying that.
You just want to be like, stopsaying those things, stop saying
those things, so it can beuncomfortable.

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
It can be very uncomfortable, but also.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
I mean, I still think services are a beautiful way
that people get together.

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
I don't have anything against it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
The community, it's beautiful, it just depends on
the community and the serviceyou're attending or whatever,
but sometimes you're like what'shappening, so it sounds like
the bottom line is for everybodyout there in your journey,
wherever you're at whetheryou're angry right now or you're
giving grace to everybody oryou're starting in, maybe find
you might not have a whole tribeto find yet.
Okay, it's going to take aminute to find a tribe, because

(01:03:18):
the word tribe to me sounds likea bigger group of people, but
maybe you just need one personthat could be a therapist, that
could be a mentor, that could bea spiritual coach, just someone
who can allow you to be openwith them while you're working
through your thoughts and yourfeelings and be honest with
yourself and just be honest andsay, yeah, like what feels right

(01:03:40):
in my body right now.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
Can I get on board with that really and think it
all the way through, you know,because you may have been
sheltered a lot of your life,okay, and I think one of the
things and this is unfortunate,but one of the things I feel
like religious religion, anyreligion, not just Christianity,
but one of the things it doesis it teaches you you can't
trust yourself because you'renot good enough, You're not

(01:04:02):
smart, you need someone outsideof you to tell you what to do.
But the reality of it is, andthe beauty of meditation is when
you get quiet.
Yes, your soul will lead youwhere you need to go and your
soul will not steer you whereyou were supposed to be.

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
And yeah, no.
So there's just just you'regoing to find your own way
through this journey.
Just keep going.
You got to go through.
You can't get around it.
And if you're around anybodywho didn't do all this work in
the journey, they're.
They're not really on thejourney, you guys, because
there's some some spiritualnarcissists out there that are
going to.
I mean, honestly, I've metpeople who got their yoga

(01:04:38):
certification and now they thinkthey're way up here in Namaste
and they're like they figured itall out spiritually.
No, you have not, because yogais a tool and it's wonderful.
If you're on the path to be aninstructor, that's part of your
path, that's great.
But there's a lot more work tobe done, you guys.
There's a lot more work to bedone.
There's a lot more work to bedone than just attending yoga.
You to be done.

(01:05:02):
Than just attending yoga, yougot to do your therapy.
You got to dig into all thethings that have been
indoctrinated into you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
Yoga is one of the tools that we use to make our
way through this journey of life.
So lots of tools, yep, and itdoesn't matter whether you're a
yoga teacher or you're a pastoror you're a therapist we all
have shit.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
Oh God, I've never met anybody who doesn't have
anything going on.
You guys Right, never, never,never.
We all have shit.
Oh God, I've never met anybodywho doesn't have anything going
on.
You guys Right, never, never,never.
We all have shit.
Yes and some people hide itbetter than others.
That's all yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
That's all, and we're all.
We're all right there with youand I just say, as an instructor
of yoga, I'm a guide.

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
For your practice that day.

Speaker 1 (01:05:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
I don't have all the wisdom, I don't have all the
answers, I would say for thosepeople on the journey of
deconstruction.
It's hard and there's no timelimit.
No, you know, I think that thetime it you may be in
deconstruction the rest of yourlife.
But it's not just aboutdeconstruction, it's about
rebuilding a relationship withthe divine right, one that is
your soul's connection.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
Yeah, because I bet you're like me and you now feel
closer to the divine, to yourangels, to your hawk, to your
ancestors than you ever did inreligion, because that's how I
feel about it.
I feel, so much better and somuch more confident about it and
just I don't know like a weightlifted off of my shoulders

(01:06:23):
Right.
And you know you had a pastordad, you were a PK, so you know
and all the things they sayabout PKs is true.

Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
I'm just going to leave it there.

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
I've known some PKs.
Those PKs in the group are theones to watch.

Speaker 2 (01:06:37):
Okay, keep your eye on those.

Speaker 1 (01:06:38):
Keep your eye on them .

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
Yeah, keep your eye on the pastor's kid.
Mom's dad, if you have a kid,that's your pastor, that is a
friend with a pastor's kid.
You better watch them close.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
Keep an eye out because you think, no, no, no,
their dad's the pastor.
No Red flag, red flag, anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
I will say, like, overall, the journey, I wouldn't
change.
I wouldn't change what I had togo through and it's all been
hard and I wouldn't change.
I wouldn't change what I had togo through, and it's all been
hard and it's been ugly andfortunately, or unfortunately,
some of those things have beenvery public, and that's okay.
But stick with it, do the work,be true, be honest with

(01:07:12):
yourself most of all, and knowthat there are people out there
who have done it and are on theother side, who are more than
willing to hold space for you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
Exactly yes.
And then the fear starts todispel and you are no longer
worried about burning in thedepths of hell with every
decision you make.
And isn't that a relief?
That is a relief, everybody,and you may not even think that
you're in that spot right now,but you might be.
It's, liberating it's liberatingand transforming it is.
It really is Okay.
So you guys can do this, and Ihope you guys got some really
good information today hearingBeth and I both talking about

(01:07:47):
this.
So, wherever you're at in yourjourney, we don't have to do it
alone.
There is support out there.
There are things we can do tomake this a little bit easier
Not totally easy, because it'snot going to be easy.
I don't want to pretend but youcan get there and you're going
to come out the other side justthis high vibe, more enlightened
person that's going to finishthis life.
Strong, like we talk about.
This is how you get there.

(01:08:08):
This is how you finish it.
Strong, by getting to the placewhere you're truly your
authentic self, free of everyoneelse's judgments, and you're
going to finish strong.
That's it, yeah what.
And you're going to finishstrong.
That's it, yeah what do youthink, beth?

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
I think once you're doing the work, makes you more
full of love and more full ofgrace for other people?
It really does.
Then you could even imaginepossible.
Yep, because you come out theother side.
You come out the other side andyou realize there's no judgment
needed because there's room inyour heart to allow the other
person just to be who they areJust to be who they are Just to

(01:08:40):
be who they are, and there'sthis.
That's what unconditional loveis.
It's that acceptance, it's thatyou're different than me and
that's okay.
And you don't have to be underthe thumb of this list of
requirements, of do's and don'tsthat, even if you check them
all off, still aren't goodenough.
Yeah, you can be who you areand there is unconditional love
and acceptance and grace, andnot just for others, but for

(01:09:05):
yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
Yeah, I love it.
All right, we got this, youguys.
We're halfway to dead, butwe're still here.

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
We're going to do this.
I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
Well, thank you so much for being here about this.
It's been really fun.
This has been good.
I hope you guys got some reallygood stuff out of this.
Thank, you, I did Thank you,Thank you, Thank you.
Listen, I know your time isvaluable and right now I'm
feeling super grateful andtotally humbled that you chose
to hang out with me today.

(01:09:34):
If this podcast resonates withyou, could you do me a solid and
hit that subscribe or followbutton?
That's going to help you outbecause you're never going to
miss an episode, and it helps meout because you're never going
to miss an episode.
And if you have like 30 secondsmore, could you leave a
five-star rating and maybe leavea kick-ass review.
Thank you so much and I can'twait to continue our journey on

(01:09:56):
the next episode.
Oh, and I can't forget the fineprint.
You know the legal jargon.
This podcast is presentedsolely for educational and
entertainment purposes.
We're just two friends on thisjourney together and this
podcast is not intended as asubstitute for the advice of a
physician, professional coach,psychotherapist or any other

(01:10:19):
qualified professional.
You get it.
See you next time.