Hanging with Humans Podcast | Episode 23 | Chris Langer - Hanging with Humans

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
no-transcript.

(02:54):
We started working together alittle bit.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
And.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
I want to go ahead and, chris, you want to
introduce yourself real quick.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
My name is Chris Langer.
I live in Glendive Montana.
Now.
Introduce yourself real quick.
My name's Chris Langer.
I live in Glendive Montana now.
I'm from Northern Minnesotaoriginally, but I've been out in
Western Montana a long time.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Hell, yes.
Well, where were you born?
I was born in Grand Forks,north Dakota, Grand Forks, north
Dakota.
So how long did you live inNorth Dakota before you made it
to your next destination?

Speaker 2 (03:27):
North Dakota?
Yeah, not very long man.
I was born there and then Ilived pretty much from six
months old to four years old outhere in Montana with my mom.
Yeah, and then my dad broughtme back to Grand Forks and then
to Thief River Falls, minnesota.

Speaker 1 (03:46):
I love it.
So have you mostly stayedbetween, like North Dakota,
montana to Minnesota, like thatstretch, or have you lived in
other places like outside.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
I've stayed in some other places, you know, but for
a month or two or three at atime.
I lived in Tri-Cities,washington, for a few or two or
three at a time.
I lived in tri-cities,washington, for a few years.
At one point, um, I lived intucson, arizona, um, I don't
know.
Besides that, like I kind ofjust traveled around chasing
certain things, yeah, yeah, um,so I'm really excited to do this

(04:21):
.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Uh, chris is one of the last I think the last
episode.
Sam Ames, I actually wastalking to her and Chris was
back here chilling on thecomputer while we were doing
that.
So, yeah, we're finally gettingit done.
I'm really excited.
How old are you?
Right now I'm 42.
42.
So kind of, with the podcast, uh, it revolves around mental

(04:44):
health mostly, um, and you know,giving you a platform to tell
your story of where you camefrom, things you've gone through
, because I feel like it kind oflays like a roadmap out for
others to not make the samemistakes.
And I've gotten a lot offeedback from people telling me,
you know, like shit, that likeblew my mind, that it was that

(05:05):
special and important to them.
You know, I had a a girl say,like the earlier episodes, first
couple episodes, they're likenot like tough to listen to but
like the topics are kind ofintense.
You know what I mean childhoodabuse type stuff, not easy stuff
to talk about, you know, and uh, and they're like two and a
half hours long and, um, whatthe fuck was I going with that?

Speaker 2 (05:29):
god damn it it meant so much to yes, yes, uh it.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
Uh, you know, and then it meant so much to me to
hear, uh, that one gal said, um,I never could get into religion
or church when I was younger.
I pushed against it.
She goes.
When I listened to the podcastin my head that is what I think
church is.
It's something I related to somuch and it it kind of helped me

(05:56):
realize her own childhoodbecause it was so similar to the
girls that you know was on thepodcast her story and someone
else's story and it's, and shewas like that's, I've been
waiting to hear that my wholelife kind of is what she said.
And that was like a coupleepisodes in and I was like damn,
like this shit is reallyactually powerful and like so

(06:18):
that like helped me lock in forthe.
You know, basically two yearsI've been on this grind you know
absolutely 20 episodes.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
I've been on this grind you know, 20 episodes.

Speaker 1 (06:27):
I didn't even know if I was gonna make that in, uh,
season three.
Right now, the first one onseason three, I'm very fucking
excited about that, um and thenwe'll get into some future
endeavors that I got going on,you got going on, but I want to
start from beginning.
Early years we talk a little bitabout, well, we talk a lot

(06:49):
about childhood trauma and stuff, but how much it affects us
later on in life and I feel likewe have a lot of similarities
in kind of the way we grew up ina way.
So would you mind kind of goinginto, like you know, grand
Forks, life in the beginning?

Speaker 2 (07:09):
What do you kind of remember into, like, uh, you
know, grand forks life in thebeginning.
What do you kind of rememberabout that?
Uh, not too much in thebeginning in grand forks,
because I was only like sixmonths, I believe, until I moved
to montana with with my mom,but that's you know.
So just to point out I don't, Idon't have like huge, huge
memories, but I have flashes ofmemories in in dreams and

(07:32):
nightmares, and you know, yeah,I do remember, though, you know,
being chained up in a bathroomwhen my mom was gone, you know,
locked up in a in a dingy oldshed.
They had this light outsidethat just buzzed all night super
loud, one of them old, like,yeah, you know, outdoor lights,

(07:55):
street lights, yeah, really loudto the point where, like in a
lot of jail cells later on inlife, those lights made that
same sound and it just drove menuts when I was in solitary and
stuff.
But uh, yeah, I mean, my momhad like a plethora of different
boyfriends, husbands, differentthings like that in those four

(08:16):
years and, just, you know,myriad addictions and
afflictions.
Basically, I can see that now Ididn't, then I just felt pain
yeah, you know, yeah, back then,and and then eventually my dad
showed up in in montana and umpicked my brother and I up.
We were running away from homeand um, him and his friend clint

(08:39):
, picked us up and my brotherwas, you know, cigarette and
cigar burns all over.
I had belt lashings all overand um, he took us to the to the
uh law and justice center inBozeman and got immediate
emergency custody and took usback to Grand Forks, to our
grandmother, his mom's house, mygrandma's house.

(09:00):
And then, uh, my mom never evenshowed up to fight for custody
or anything, she just kind of.
And I've seen her once sincethen at my grandma's funeral and
when I was shit, I was 20 yearsold, you know, 20 years ago 22
years ago, yeah, 22 years ago,and I hadn't seen her from four
years old until then.

(09:21):
So and I've talked to her maybetwice.
You know that's crazy in theinterim, yeah, you know.
Is there any?

Speaker 1 (09:28):
like you know, because some people that have
like distant social media,checking on people sort of
relationships.
Do you have anything like that,like do you know whereabouts?
Or even, yeah, I know whereshe's at she's?

Speaker 2 (09:38):
she's somewhere around like decatur pool,
pooleville, texas, somewhere byDallas, fort Worth.
Yeah, I know that because I didkeep in contact with my
youngest sister, half sisterthat is with her.
So she's out there and her lastname is Headley.
Now, that's all I really know.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
What's your relationship with your sister.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
So when I was in prison years ago, she started
writing me when she was like 16.
She's what?
Three or four years youngerthan me and she started writing
to me like kind of asking mequestions that someone might ask
a dad, really you know, orsomeone they looked up to like
that Information.
Yeah, yeah, and we started likewriting back and forth a little
bit.
And then when I got out wetalked on the information, yeah,

(10:24):
and we started like writingback and forth a little bit.
And then when I got out wetalked on the phone a lot.
She'd always hit me up formoney, those kinds of things,
but she stuck with me in and outof prison there for a little
while Like she didn't write meagain after that, but every time
I got out we talked again.
She was cool.
But you know, just like a lotof people in my life, just got

(10:47):
tired of me saying, hey, I'mgoing to do good this time.
I'm going to get out, I'm goingto do it for real.
I got all these plans, you know.
She got tired of the dream, youknow.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
How many siblings do you have altogether?

Speaker 2 (11:00):
Oh, shoot, I got.
So I have one full bloodbrother, same mom, same dad.
That's the brother I spokeabout earlier.
We're running away togethervery young.
And then I have two halfbrothers in Minnesota, and then
I have, let's see, at least twosisters in Texas, or one of

(11:22):
them's married and gone now, butyeah, and then two or three
more brothers over there too,and I don't, I don't even, I
don't know yeah, do you likerock with any of them on a
consistent basis at all?
not anymore, man like I gotreally close with, like I said,
my youngest sister for a bit andthen my youngest half brother,

(11:42):
um, for several years and Ithink basically the same thing.
Yeah, he's got tired of megetting locked up and and living
how I chose to live.

Speaker 1 (11:52):
So you're 42 now.
How many years, do you think?
A total, maybe even plusjuvenile?
I don't know if you did that,but like oh yeah full
incarceration.
What do you think like?
Like, how many years Shit it'sgotta be.
You did what?
Five years since, you right,Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
Where was that?
That was in Montana Yep in DeerLodge.
Yeah well, between Deer Lodgeand Shelby and back to Deer
Lodge again.
But shit, it's gotta be closeto 15, you know, maybe more,
maybe slightly under yeah,that's what I think.
Absolutely between, you know,maybe more, maybe slightly under
.
Yeah, absolutely between countyjails, you know, juvenile, uh,

(12:29):
and and prison, yeah, you know,and you know, in multiple states
in the west united states.
So so you're just used to it.
Unfortunately it's, you know.
I guess a lot of people are like, oh, it's so much easier in
there and people say that it'snot man, it's it's familiar yeah

(12:50):
but it's painful, it's lonely,it sucks, it's scary at times,
you know yeah I definitely havesome trauma from in there too,
just not like like I got raped,beat up or anything like that,
like I thrived in that situation, in that, in that part of life
you know, in the prison systemand all that, but like you know

(13:11):
even certain words, seeingpeople get their head knocked
off for a word or for a look, oryou know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
Watching somebody get their head cut off, like things
like that, just you know, yeah,when I mean when you're doing
life and you got nothing to lose, like that's epic shit, yeah, I
don't care at that point.
Yeah, well, the worst ones wasin juvie.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
Man, like kids don't have that emotional regulation
and they don't.
They don't have that.
Give a damn.
That's true.
Don't see that the end of the.
They'll see the big picture.
Man, yeah, they're doing somebrutal stuff in here.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
I can imagine.
I can imagine Damn.
What do you think of all thethings?
What's the number one thing youlearned in prison?
What comes to your head whenyou think about that Learned in
prison that you use out today inlife?

Speaker 2 (14:08):
I mean I pick my friends, I don't let them pick
me.
That's, that's a major one forme.
Yeah, I mean when I, when Icatch, catch somebody like
really trying to be my friend,yeah, I'm thinking like what are
you trying?
Yeah, what, what are you on,man?
You know, and it's helped me alot.
Like you know, I don't, I don'tknow, I keep my circle real
small and really close.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
You know, like I don't know that and just like
and when you don't got mom anddad around too, it's like you.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
You kind of like friends, are like family yeah
absolutely, I got my streetfamily and that's that is, the
biggest part of my family is allthe people that I've met over
the.
I've met some very amazingpeople, you know, in in the down
in the dirty, with a lot ofthese people and, just you know,
in the last 10 years or so,I've seen some absolute

(15:11):
transformations and you know, um, yeah, something I've been
thriving for or, you know, notthriving, but like I've been
driven to do.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
For like the last 10 years yeah, nine or 10 years
I've been going hard trying tolike get some kind of recovery,
get healed, like you know Iwanted things that I've seen
other people having and and Irelated to somebody's story that
I ran into in one of theserooms somewhere and I stuck

(15:41):
around some the most, some ofthe most important lessons, and
Some of the most importantlessons and some of the most
important conversations thatshaped my life were like 4
o'clock in the morning, allblowed out on you know, after
part, you know talking tosomebody like some random dude
who's just been through it fromcompletely different backgrounds
, but we kind of grew up thesame way, type shit, like we

(16:02):
didn't have it easy come up andyou kind of had to fend for
yourself, type shit.
And I learned so much of thatfrom so many people that I never
forgot, never forgot it.
And as I move around in societynow, today, I feel like growing
up around it, um, I don't know.
I just see such a gap, gapbetween people that I just never

(16:26):
had to deal with a lot.
You know, especially whilethey're young.
You know, like the way theytreat people.
I see that like they, they justthey didn't face a lot of
things.
You know a lot of conflict.
You know empathy and no, no,they hold no space for those
that have, it seems sometimesyeah, that and the uh tolerance

(16:47):
you look, kind of look down uponyou know from from like, kind
of like on a high horse, yeah,absolutely, like I've always.
I mean that's just beeninstilled in me that, like man,
we all pump the same blood.
You know, treat, treat, treat.
Treat a man like you want himto treat you and the same type
of shit.
Like there's a lot of thatmissing from today and I feel

(17:09):
like you know, maybe if some assbookings got handed out or or
something, you know what I meanlike then maybe you know that
that wouldn't happen type thing.
But yeah, um, you grow up quickwhen living the type of life
that you grew up with.
Um, uh, your brother and I, uhparents divorced, uh, four

(17:30):
corners, bozeman.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
That's what we just talked about.
Yep Four corners, Bozeman.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
Uh, your earliest memories.
We got that Uh four to fiveyears old.
Dad comes, picks you up.
Uh, dad gets custodyGrandparents.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
What was the?
What was it like with yourgrandparents Grandparents so
honestly, culture shock, really,like all that stuff.
Like I said, it was a freakingwar zone, like you know, eating
macaroni and cheese with hotdogs in the three meals a day.
If we got three meals a day,you know what I mean.
But that's the only thing mymom knew how to cook, I think,

(18:04):
and just the way we were livingthere.
And then to go to grandma andgrandpa's house, which are like
devout Catholic people, got alot of discipline, you know they
work full time, you know, Idon't know it was.
So what I saw because there wasa lot of family around there

(18:27):
was, you know, my, my youngestuncle, you know, was still
living at the house when me andmy brother showed up and all the
aunts and uncles still lived intown and they were unmarried
and my dad was traveling aroundall over the United States.
That's why we went there first.
My dad was traveling around allover the United States.
That's why we went there first.
But all I remember is a lot ofweird looks and a lot of

(18:47):
whispering and a lot of giftsthat I know we didn't deserve.
You know, like we didn't.
It wasn't my birthday, yeah, itwasn't Christmas.
Like, just, I knew there wassomething.
You know what I mean.
And a lot of times I would justhide behind the couch and just
like just get away from peopleand I was already like building
that antisocial like Structurearound me, that safety zone.

(19:10):
Yeah, all I got is me and Iknow it, I don't trust you
people, you're adults, you knowwhat I mean.
And yeah, and then we, they gotus to see, see this couple of
therapists up at the Universityof North Dakota Scott and Angie
were their names and you know mybrother, he just like went

(19:30):
right in, started talking tothem.
You know, I don't know whatabout anymore, but probably our
past or whatever.
They asked him and I justremember I sat way off on a huge
stack of cushions, you know,and just stayed away from them,
stayed quiet, kept everythingreal close to the chest you know
, and I just remember I didn'treally like going there.

(19:51):
Again, they were adults.
I didn't trust them.
I didn't want to be nowherenear them.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
No, I get that.
You know it's crazy lookingback, like when life is that
crazy it's hard to draw thosememories out.
But I've learned that sometimesthings can trigger that to
happen.
Do you know of anything thatkind of makes something come
back to you?

Speaker 2 (20:14):
Absolutely, man.
My biggest trigger for a lot ofyears, bro, was, uh, I know
it's weird, but and it stillhappens sometimes today, but and
we'll get into this later yeah,what changed it?
Yeah, um, uh, like crunching,when somebody's crunching food
not that they're smacking theirlips, but that crunching

(20:36):
grinding sound it used toterrify me to the point that,
like instantly, I you know Iwouldn't have called it fear
before I would call it rage yeahyeah, but I know now that it
started with fear and then Iwent to rage.
You know I went to to put thatdown on the ground.
Like it got to the point where,like somebody's crunching next

(20:59):
to me, I grabbed them by theface and, you know, shoved their
head into the freaking windowif they were driving you know
what I mean or one of my, one ofmy craziest I just had to shut
it up, like grab them by theface and lay them on the ground,
like you know well, and Ididn't even know why for a long
time.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
It was just a trigger in methat just made me super afraid,

(21:23):
yeah, and then super angry.
You know, yeah, and I came fromsomebody, a woman in my life,
that that, uh, she ate like thatand she happened to like say
really mean things and throw hotstuff on me and like do crazy
shit, and then she'd be walkingaway eating fucking chips or

(21:45):
something like that and justcrunching.
So that's, that's a weirdtrigger, but it's a trigger, man
.
It was one of my worst for along time they can be literally
anything.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
I had a friend, she, she, she didn't know why she was
tripping out whenever there'dbe like rain outside her window
and stuff and it's because itwas buried that like while the
abuse was happening.
That's what she remember waslike looking out the window in
the rain, being on thewindowsill and stuff.
Yeah, and that kind of me up.

(22:15):
When I heard it, like you know,come from her, right in that
moment I was just like, damn,that's like you can't even just
chill and just have a rain likeright on the way.
Yeah, rain is beautiful too.
You know what I mean?
It's supposed to be peaceful.
Yeah, the sound of it, yeah, Isleep to that shit and there's
no sound right now.
But that's, this is what I puton these little uh cabin, uh

(22:35):
fireplace, rainy situations like, yeah, that helps me sleep, but
that'd be fucked up if I listento it and I just it's crazy
broke out yeah, yeah, um, Ithink one thing I'm starting to
figure out more is if you reallydive into it and you try to
break it down and you really tryto process it which is a very

(22:59):
hard thing to do slowly andslowly it'll stop being a thing.
I mean it's not every case andevery case is so different.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
But yeah, I've in my own like healing journey, like
that's what I learned is like I,you know, I haven't drank in
like two years, type of shit youknow, um, yeah, bro, I and I'll
just touch on it right now fora half second I, I did something
called emdr and that was thething that freaking.
That like changed that for me,changed my react, like I don't

(23:31):
know if you know anything aboutit, but, like it, it doesn't
change obviously your memory oryour past, you know, but it
changes the reaction you have tothat trigger moment, that
memory you know what I mean likeit's still going to trigger you
, but you, you choose adifferent way.
Yeah, you teach yourself how toreact differently, healthier.

(23:55):
Um, and now I can tell Sam hey,or she sees it in me before I
see it a lot.
She'll be sitting next to me inbed or something, crunching on
something, and she'll literallylook over and see me like I'll
just do this because I don'twant to say anything to her, you
know.
And she'll see me cringing andshe'll just get up and go, but a
lot of times I can just sayStep out, here, we eat whatever.
No, you know, it's different.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
Have you ever been in a relationship or anything
where it wasn't okay to liketalk about those things or bring
those things up?

Speaker 2 (24:25):
or anything like that .
Yeah, I haven't talked about itfor a long time, man, but you
know it's kind of funny likebeing locked up all these years.
I did a lot of groups.
I did PTSD therapies in theretoo.
So I got a lot of like time inretrospection or introspection

(24:47):
and a lot of time to process.
I had a lot of downtime.
I got the opportunity 99 of theworld does not ever get the
time to slow down enough to takea look at that shit and really,
really delve into it and ittook me a lot of years to even
want to, to even want to touchany of them.
Ghosts, yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
So there's a lot of that in your cell alone, time
for that when you're on theoutside?
How does that go?
Are you able to find time to dothat and shit Fishing man?

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, out there on the river, bro, I'm a I'm a
fishing freak and that's like ifthere's god in my life, that's
where it's at, where it'stangible in nature, and you know
when.
That's the only time I can findthat quietude out here.
You know, like, honestly, Istill don't like being around
people like for the for the mostpart yeah, you know like I said

(25:42):
, I keep it small and trust me,like we get invites a lot to go
do things with people aroundhere and stuff, even in this
small town, and we're just likewe're good at home.
Man, we got everything we needhere.
You know what I mean and we'renot trying to be anti-social.
We get out and do things fromtime to time but, man, we pick
the things that we do verycarefully, like we pick our

(26:04):
friends for sure, because wecan't afford to get caught up.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
I can't afford to get caught up again in that life
man and if you get mixed up withpeople from the past or the
wrong type, you know all ittakes is being in the wrong
place at the wrong time oranything like that, and it could
change the world.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
Oh yeah, back, you know what I mean, like you're on
paper right now yeah, yeah,hoping to get off here a few
years early, you know, becauseI've been doing for the first
time in my life what I'msupposed to be doing yeah and uh
.
But yeah, I'm on paper rightnow and and yeah, you know, I've
had moments of like, you know,18 months where I've been doing

(26:42):
hella good you know, and then Idecided to burn it all down for
whatever reason, and literallyin less than a month, what I've
amassed in two years is gone,completely gone.
I'm in the gutter again.
You know, I'm a you know.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
You know, sometimes it only takes one night.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
I'm no shit junkie, you know what I mean.
Like I'm back in the shedhomeless.
You know shed homeless in weeks.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
I uh, I grew up in west side, modesto and um, I
remember I was like I, like Ididn't have the best situation.
But if I walked one block away,I had this homie.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
Stanley.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
I want to, maybe I can.
I've reached out to him overthe years.
We kind of just haven't touchedbase.
But we were friends and him,his dad, like in the shed shack.
Type shit in the alley.
Electricity.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
Type in the alley, you know electricity you know,
type and like I didn't, you know, I was in a house in the hood.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
But I had my dad, we had the dog we had you know
didn't have yeah, but nevercried about it.
Yeah, a lot of anger, you beata lot of up, but it makes sense
when that's what your life is.
Yeah absolutely, as a child,you really need that care and
the protection and like a safetyzone, like a place, a place

(28:04):
that the world's a crazy place,like you need a door to open up
to go home and like, all right,we're safe, like what you got
now.
Yeah, with the wife.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
Yeah, absolutely, man .
It's the first time I rememberwandering around the streets in
bozeman as a young kid.
On the streets, I was on therun from the juvenile center of
minnesota and, uh, in thewintertime just walking around
like watching people atthanksgiving, watching people
like not staring through theirwindows, but then at night you
can see in people's houses whentheir lights are on, especially

(28:33):
seeing the christmas trees,seeing the family hugs, the
embraces, that all the thingsthat, honestly, I never had and
it's kind of was like a CharlieBrown moment, like I just, you
know, like I wonder what thatwould be like.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, but at the same time Iwas so busy keeping people out

(28:54):
and keeping people away nobodycould get that close to you know
?
yeah, my life and myrelationships were in a backpack
bro, like ready to go at anymoment.
I live bug out, bag 24 7, youknow yeah, period, like streets,
yeah, streets man.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, that's I get it um yeah, you've been through a
lot um psychologist.
You did that with your brother.
Um high school.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
You didn't go to high school right, uh, six months or
so in bozeman I I took anaptitude test, started 10th
grade, did really well.
Left, left, left I left.
I went and stayed with mygrandparents for a short time,
right there, got into school,yeah, got bored, went back to
the, to the barn in my, in mybest friend's, on her property,

(29:52):
on high school's property youknownesota group home, or I
think it's a group home.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yeah, it wasn't that was the first place I ever got
sent to.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yes, 2003 adult uh, lock up, yeah, lock up.
Um, the next thing I got is x,three kids, one kid, grandbabies
youhmm, break that down.
Well, you couldn't get close toanybody for the longest time.
No one was the first likebreakthrough you had with the

(30:25):
person.
Well, you felt comfortable andlike, oh, I have a safe space.
There's a thing I have,borderline personality disorder,
and there's a thing it's calleda FP favorite person yeah, yeah
, my daughter talks about it.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
She has it too.
Yeah, she gets.
Really she can't.
Even if they stop texting orsomething, she'll quit her job.
She won't.
She can't get out of bed likeit's tough, man.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah, it's fucking tough um, yeah, but yeah did you
have any?
You know something like that,maybe to not that extreme extent
, but like uh, well, bro, I wasI.
When you're in the streets,relationships aren't really the
best no, but that's kind of whatit's been like.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
I mean, I had I looked at girls way different
dude, like they were either forsex or they were like a mom
figure or whatever.
Yeah, and like so the girl Iended up first marrying when I
was 18 years old.
I married her because we hadalready had a child.

(31:28):
You know, I had a child acouple weeks after I turned 18.
She was born and we were livingin the Tri-Cities by then.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
What were you doing out in Washington?
She was born and we were livingin Tri-Cities by then, but uh
what were you?

Speaker 2 (31:39):
doing out in Washington.
Well, her parents got divorcedand that's where they're from
originally was Tri-Cities inBenton City, right Right outside
of there and her mom said hey,you guys want to come out to
Washington?
I'm moving out there.
You guys want to come with,we'll help you get started,
whatever.
And yeah, we went out there,man, and got married, but like I

(32:05):
wasn't like in love with thegirl or nothing like that, it
was like I felt like almost aduty to like A obligation, yeah,
and also the laws weredifferent too.
Like she was six months youngerthan me, so she wasn't quite 18
yet.
The laws were different too.
She was six months younger thanme, so she wasn't quite 18 yet.
So in order for her to livewith me in Washington, we had to

(32:27):
be married.
Otherwise I don't know if theywould have charged me
necessarily.
Literally, her birthday is sixmonths.
She was turning 18 in sixmonths.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
And the parents?
They're the ones that wantedyou to come out there.
Yeah, yeah, so they're trippingabout it, yeah yeah, no, they
couldn't for half the year.
We're the same age yeah, youknow what I mean, yeah but yeah,
so I did that.

Speaker 2 (32:48):
And but, dude, I'm gonna be honest with you like,
this is the first like solidlove relationship I've been in
with a woman like yeah likestraight up.
I've had some, some close, butno cigars.
And I've, I've tested it out.
I practiced breaking up withgirls for a while.

(33:09):
They're like, likeappropriately, yeah, at the
advice of somebody in therecovery circles, like, hey, go
out with a few girls andpractice breaking up without
melting the fuck down.
Yeah, you know, or whatever.
Yeah, because people tend to dothat, not necessarily me, but
like a lot of people lose theirrecovery over it.
Yeah, over relationships, it'slike one of the biggest things

(33:31):
that throw people off course.
Yeah, a big what was it?

Speaker 1 (33:38):
Somebody was interviewing something.
Oh, it was.
Some dude in jail was watchingsome podcast or something.
He was like yeah, any like 80,70% of these, it's like it's
relationships.
It was they got into a fightwith their lady and then you had
to push buttons and just grabyeah, so yeah, and it's fucking
relationships.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
Or even just personal relationships with like, like
friends, co-workers, stuff likethat.
Can you know, throw a wrench inthings when you're like, when
you're like thinking all right,this could be like a friend, you
know what I mean.
And next thing, you know, theydo something to like just cross
you, man, and that, that, thatfreaking.

(34:15):
Uh, you know what is thatcalled?
Uh, resentment inside you justburning, burning, burning.
That's led me more times thannot back into this boom.
Yeah, you know.
Resentments, expectations ofother people.
Yeah it, it's like apremeditated resentment,
basically, when I expect peopleto be a certain like yeah, you

(34:39):
know what I mean, because I'mgonna be that way.
I expect that from you.
Yeah, that's fucking great andthat's led me back into this
wound too, you know.
But yeah, like, as far as thelove stuff, I had plenty of
girlfriends.
You know, like I said, I lookedat women a little different
because, yeah, I was hurt bywomen in my life yeah, you know
badly.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
So, yeah, I, uh I not the exact same situation, but
yeah, I do feel like we kind oflived a similar path.
Uh, I.
I will say, though, like I neverintentionally, you know because
I know like you you talk abouttoo, that there are points where
you're just, you're so angrythat that's how it would be.

(35:20):
But yeah, I've always that I,that I love women so much
because, you know, I didn't havemy mom and dad around for you
know, a lot of portions of mylife, yeah, and that's where
that, you know, the favoritething came from.
You know it was like well, my,my girlfriend and her parents.
You know, like I was alwaysbecause I was like a poor kid

(35:42):
and you know all all my mygirlfriend shouts of all them,
they, uh, they, they had theycame from great families it was
always like a, like a classdisparity or a gap.
Yeah, you cast system.
Yeah, but it's because I knewmyself and I have to have
something better than me or notbetter than me, but but more
stable than me.
Yeah, and and like now I'm I'mgood, like I'm straight now, you

(36:06):
know, but it took a long timeto get here.
I'm a late bloomer, you know.
My dad was the same way.
Yeah, like straight up, likeonce you figure it out, you know
, it's like ain't way to knockme off now, you know, but it
took so fucking much that I wasjust like am I ever gonna?
Like everyone else is inhealthy relationships, and it's
like why the fuck can't I dothat?

Speaker 2 (36:26):
you know, yeah, yeah, it was really confusing for me,
Like no favorite person stuff.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
But one thing that sticks out now that you're
talking about it is like like Iwatched my mom do this, you know
, like she's been married Idon't know maybe eight times now
.
You know, I've seen it be like.
So I basically for the greaterpart of like 20 years I had one

(36:53):
longout, toxic, freakingrelationship with several
different women.
Like as soon as I got out ofone I was in the next one and I
always had one on the backburner that I was working on.
So when I burned this one down,I was in that one and it just
didn't end.
I never had like any downtimebetween relationships.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
And that gets to like messing with your head too, so
you're always bringing in all 19of them other relationships
into this new one, andcontinuing it on and it's just,
it's a process anything, no,learned from anything, because
you're just throwing another onein now she.
You know what.
After them, first three,probably they're all victims.

(37:37):
You know what I mean, not likeI was beating the shit out of
them or something, butemotionally, like unavailable
Chris, like emotionally immatureChris was out there just
wrecking girls.
You know what I mean, justvictimizing.
In that respect, if you want togo there like I didn't have
girlfriends, I had victims aftera while, basically Of my

(38:02):
screwed up way of finding loveor whatever.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I've been on my own forthe longest and when you don't
have anybody and you're alone,that person that's going to be
able to answer, no matter, youknow like yeah, that's
everything, yeah, and you'llhave, you know like I don't know
that, I just I and then it'slike I wanted that.

(38:28):
I didn't want to have more ofit.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
It's just like it's like almost like having a safety
like what if she does?
You know what if?

Speaker 1 (38:36):
something bad, like at least this is here for me,
type type thing.
You know, um, I'm glad that, uh, I don't look at things, you
know, like that anymore.
Yeah, absolutely yeah, becausebecause I have a lot of you know
.
Yeah, I mean people say youknow no regrets, but I mean
happens and it changes the waythings happen in life.

(38:57):
But there's a lot of shit Iwould have done different.
You know like I'm, it kills meto see someone else in pain, and
especially when I was the oneinflicting it, because I felt
like my brain was just doing itand I had like almost no control
over it.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
You know, like an impulse and I just can't,
couldn't say no yeah, we talkedabout that the other night, that
that being like the one thingthat hurt a lot.
It was like seeing the look insomeone else's eyes after I've
done something to hurt them,yeah, and knowing that I
couldn't stop from like doing itagain or leaving that situation
and hurting them more, you knowbecause also, like the other

(39:36):
person is like they're trying tohelp you too.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
like, like all the the women in my life that I'm a
fixer upper, they're all tryingto fix me up you know, but it
feels good to be loved when youdidn't like have it to the best
degree.
You know and that's not to saymy whole life was like that,
like my parents love the show,you know, but they got divorced
and that that fuck shit up foreveryone worst, and that that

(40:01):
fucks shit up for everyone.
You know absolutely, um, thisis gonna be like tough, but, uh,
I had something I wanted, uh,uh, so you had three kids and
then, yes, there's, there's abad tragedy that happened.

Speaker 2 (40:33):
Yeah, one of them whooping, she got, you know,
myself and and she was workingeither at the college in bozeman
in animal and range sciences orshe was working maybe even both
at the candy shop in the malltoo.
Uh, so anyway, like we didn't,we didn't have money.
Yeah, we were living paycheckto paycheck, you know.
So the kid went to daycareright away and I think that's

(40:54):
might be where she got thatstuff from, like, yeah, because
they kept sending her home withother kids, binkies and bottles
all the time and stuff, and like, oh, that's crazy.
I just in retrospect, as Ithink that's might where she
contracted it, because you knowthere was other little infants
too that probably got vaccinatedand their parents didn't keep
them away from daycare.
I don't know if there's anincubation period or what.

(41:17):
I'm not, I'm not a freakingdoctor, but that's just what my
head is put together, yeah, butyeah, she got that and I thought
her into the emergency room.
I brought her to herpediatrician at first and he
prescribed Motrin, which isibuprofen basically, and like I
knew that was wrong, like youknow, she was turning different

(41:41):
colors, you know blue, when I'dhold her, like like this, when I
put her up and down like thisshe'd be, she'd get her color
back.
One people was super, supertiny, like a pinhead and one was
like blown out, you know, likean owl, and I knew that wasn't
right.
You know I already have twokids that I spent a lot of time

(42:02):
with and there's something a lotmore wrong than just giving
ibuprofen to this baby.
And like I brought her in againlike the next day and kind of
got yelled at Like I actuallygot people back here who are
sick and like you're getting inthe way of them getting their
medical attention.
And so I brought her into theemergency room the next day and

(42:26):
it's right in the call security,because they had gotten a memo
from the pediatrician allthroughout the hospital to like
that was acting pretty erraticthe second time already.
And then this one little oldnurse like came in between
everybody because it was a bigargument with security and
everything and you know it waslike willing to run a blood

(42:48):
culture, like to do something,yeah, do actually.
And they they ran that oneblood culture and they came back
and they're like we need to gether up to intensive care right
now.
We need to intubate, we need toparalyze and go from there and
it was only a few hours before Iwas on the plane to great falls

(43:09):
, to the neonatal over there,and then, um, you know, yeah,
she passed away from whoopingcough and protest is the first,
first person to die from itsince like the Early 80s or mid
80s or something.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
So it was pretty, pretty crazy there's like
Negligence, that goes on and Ifeel like in a lot of daycares
that not a lot of people get tosee, you know.
Yeah some of them have like 30,25 kids and they're like four
people working there, right, youknow?

Speaker 2 (43:38):
yeah, um yeah, I can't be for sure that that's
what happened, but I can be surethat, um, that pediatrician was
my mom, my ex-wife'spediatrician when she was a baby
actually birthed her, I thinkhe was.
He was and her pediatrician,you know, and just old guy like

(44:00):
70 probably by then.
You know something.
And the doctor when we finallygot to neonatal was a young kid
and right when we walked in he'slike man this sounds like
pertussis, you know, like allthe signs are there to him, like
he knew what it was.
And then he told us like ifthis would have been caught
before, antibiotics could havetaken care of the situation.

(44:21):
That's crazy, but it's too farprogressed now yeah, damn it
yeah, it's sad, that's terrible.
Yeah, you know, that led to somecrazy shit.
I was on paper back then like Iwas on probation and I called
my probation officer from greatfalls right after she died, like
nearly hours after, telling herhey, I want to get fucking high

(44:44):
, I need some treatment rightnow.
I want to go away for a littlewhile.
And she's, you know, I said Ifeel like I'm gonna use again.
And she's like go ahead and use, you'll get plenty of treatment
in prison.
You know, basically is what shesaid.
And I went off the grid for twomonths, got myself a drug

(45:04):
evaluation, did all this stuffto get myself into a treatment
center and then called my lawyerand turned myself in with my
lawyer and the judge actuallylike freaked out on my parole
officer.
I'm just like, like are youkidding me?
He called and asked for help.
That is your job, you know,like you're not only there for
punitive measures, you're thereas a social worker as well.

(45:26):
Yeah, and that's why I'm gladnow there's so much prison
reform there.
They have to have degrees inlike behavioral sciences at the
least, at the very least.
Yeah, you know.
No, that's good shit's changing.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
When do you say that shift happened?

Speaker 2 (45:42):
that like the, when they started like looking at it
more.
Yeah, yeah, I mean montana.
They did their biggest prisonreform in like 2017, where they
made it like I don't even wantto say like you get more chances
.
I guess is the way they see itand some offenders or people see
it.
You know, convicts, felons orwhatever see it.

(46:03):
But it's legit man.
They have to exhaust a bunch ofdifferent like you know ways to
help to intervene.
They have to go through so manyinterventions before they can
just send you to prison.
They have to go through so manyinterventions before they can
just send you to prison, unlessit's new crimes or it's
absconding, where you just takeoff and don't even give a shit.

(46:25):
You know those are.
Those are the two things I cansend you directly back.
But they're not there yet byany means, bro.
But they're moving in the rightdirection, as long as, like the
voters, us as voters, like wakethe fuck up, stop walking up

(46:46):
america.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
Yeah, it's crazy there's so much like negligence
and like dirty shit behind thescene going on too, and
everything it's like.
That needs to be a system.
That needs to be like pristineyou're dealing with people's
lives.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
Yeah, yeah, you know I got locked up at a very young
age for running away from home.
They you know what's why.
Why is an eight-year-old innorthern minnesota in the
freezing snow running away tolive outside rather than living

(47:18):
in a warm ass house with hisparents?
They don't want to look at theparents.
They're saying you're fucked up, kid, you have an impulse
disorder, you need to be lockedup.
You know it's crazy and yeah,that's crazy, but it set the
stage for my life.
Man, like never, neverthroughout the system, did

(47:45):
anybody ever say, hey, what thefuck is going on?
What do you think might helpyou?
What do you need to help you?
And I think they need to askthat.
I mean, I understand, Iunderstand, like severe, like
like violent sexual things likethat.
Lock them up, yeah, whatever.

(48:05):
But like drug addicts, like youknow, things like that, yeah,
recovery.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
It's like asking what the fuck they need you know,
yeah, like a lot of these peoplejust suffering straight up and
um, it's like jumping ahead alittle bit.
But we talked about, um, well,we were at at dobbins and we
were talking in the morningabout uh, you're showing me the
messages with that gal inmissoula, uh, she's in great

(48:33):
falls yeah, um, what was that?

Speaker 2 (48:36):
because basically you're kind of telling me that
Peer support basically is whatit boils down to Like nobody
could.
Maybe it's the understanding oflike one alcoholic or one
addict working with another one.
You know out of experience andempathy and compassion you know,
and not just any addict orwhatever, but an addict or an

(48:58):
alcoholic or or an inmate orsomebody with PTSD or somebody
with multiple personalitydisorder or whatever it may be.
That's been there.
I don't know.
I forget what the word is, butyou know, like role model.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
I've gone to, you know, done a lot of different
therapy and stuff and it reallyclicked once.
The person that I talked to.
They were actually like in themilitary and you know they
shared similar experiences.
So just that alone was such ahuge thing, because the other

(49:47):
times it was some girl that justgraduated college and never did
anything.
But that there's nothingagainst that.
It's just there's not arelation there.
So once I kind of figured thatthat was like very helpful for
me.
So I think like the rightpeople in the right positions is
so important.
You know therapy, you knowprison, you know you gotta have

(50:07):
the right people for that um,yeah, I mean, that's how you
know.

Speaker 2 (50:12):
Alcoholics, anonymous narcotics, none, cocaine
anonymous, whatever, all thoseanonymous groups, they, they
help a lot of people.
Yeah, you know, and that'swhere I got my start is through
those groups, you know.
But that only served me so far,like, yeah, I need so.
Like I'm in a place now where,like, okay, I've done that part,

(50:35):
I've done that work.
You know, I'm not justabstinent, but I feel like I'm
recovered from those things.
And it says that in their books, but it's so cultish it's hard
to even talk to people that havebeen in those programs for a
certain amount of years, becausethe only thing they can say is
things that they've heard out ofthat book anymore.

(50:58):
It's like they're they're in atrance with that shit and like I
don't want to be an addict.
Once an addict, I was an addict.
Once an alcoholic god.
Once a comic, I was a comic.
No, no man, I can move beyondthat and I want to, and I have,
and I want to show somebody elseand I want to show somebody
else and I want to help somebodyelse.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
It's the number one like thing I kind of go back to,
especially on the podcastbecause I talk to different
people that have been throughthings is oh fuck, I just lost
it.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Oh, that every uh Fuck what were we just talking
about?
One person has been through it,helping another.
Basically is what it comes downto.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
Oh, yeah, um, there's no, like there's not a lot of
mental health resources yeahright, right, especially where
we're at too.
We're in a small town, we'reway out damn near in canada.
You know um, it's not poppinglike that with that stuff out
here, uh, and when I got hereabout a year ago you know,
shouts out to dovin first.

(52:03):
You know, job, I got out here bymyself busting my ass with him
and uh, on his website, I builtit and you know we've been
working pretty close.
I'm very close with him.
Now he's, he's, he's helped meout a lot and yeah and um, me
too, yeah, uh, but he, uh, likeon the website, uh, what what he

(52:27):
wants to do and like the peoplehe hires, people that have gone
through you know it's likeveterans, guys out of prison
because he did time, you know,and he motivates the shit out of
me because all the shit he'sgone through and what he's been
able to build, you know, byhimself in a small town.
Yeah, you know me too.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
It's crazy like I and I'm, and I'm learning, that's,
that's one thing about is I'mlearning every day.
And yeah, he's, he's crazy withit, man.
Like sometimes I'm like, why doyou have these fools working
for you?
Some of them, you know, like Iknow I've been, yeah, dude, but
like, for the first eight monthsI was literally the only person
he had that showed up everystinking day at the same time

(53:10):
every day and stayed until theend of the job every day.
You know, but he's got thisattitude like, yeah, but I mean,
they got family stuff to do.
They got, you know, like wework to live.
We don't live to work, typeshit.
And also, like he's not gonnalet my idea about how he's

(53:32):
supposed to be running shitaffect his opportunity to help
somebody.
He's just not and I I give himprops for that man.
It's just yeah, I, I would beable to deal with that much
chaos within my company.
It's very admirable, but but itis he's and he's just he does.
He has the most.
Like I don't care, you knowwhat I mean.
Like they got their shit goingon.
We're still.

(53:54):
We're still moving forward.
We're still getting the jobsdone, it don't matter, and I
need to be a little bit morelike that sometimes because I
have some pretty highexpectations of other people
again.
Not even like a romanticrelationship but like co-workers
, yeah, and that's a bad, that'sa sketchy slippery slope for me

(54:14):
, because, again, expectationsof other humans is a
premeditated resentment.
I believe that 100, becausethey will always fail your
expectations.
You know, always it's hard tolive up to all that yeah the
standard and it's dishonestbecause I don't hold myself to
that same standard sometimesright, you know, yeah, but I

(54:35):
expect everybody else to livethat way.
I get that, I know.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
Let's see.
Oh, I think it was oppositiondefiant disorder.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
Yeah, that was my first diagnosis was opposition
defiance, this ODD.
They tried to put me on amedication called siler.
I was really young and um, butfor as young as I was, I already
knew that that was a crock of.
I knew that I just didn't likeadults.

(55:12):
I didn't trust them.
Yeah, going back to that whole,yeah, my beginnings, you know,
like I want nothing to do withthem.
I couldn't stand like thesekids that like let so many
adults around them, like youknow, and were so happy about it
.
I was like, dude, that you'regonna get hurt.
Like probably wasn't thinkingexactly that as a kid, but like

(55:33):
I knew, like I didn't wantnothing to do with them and if
they asked me to do something,tell me to do something.
I knew there was an ulteriormotive.
Watch, yeah, why no, no, justno, it ain't going to happen.
You know, I'm more apt to dowhat some kid younger than me
asked me to do than what anadult says, you know, and if

(55:56):
they had to find a diagnosis forthat and medicate me for that,
fine, but I just call it likeyou just had a rough yeah,
motherfucker, that's all it was.
That makes perfect sense bro,I'm willing to bend for him two
good women yeah, I had, I had,uh, two.
I had two really good examples.

(56:16):
And I'm lucky, yep, because andit sounds crazy, it sounds
crazy to say this, but, like Ialways say, like I hated women,
you know what I mean, yeah, butI, freaking, was hurt by women,
is what it was, you know what Imean.
And, again, I didn't wantnothing to do with them until I

(56:37):
got older and they were good forsex or whatever.
But I had.
The two really really greatwomen in my life were my granny
we call her granny Granny, thewhole family does, yeah, and
she's actually my godmother.
Oh nice, because I was baptizedCatholic.
Do you still rock with any ofthat stuff?
Do you do any church-type stuff?
I was a godmother oh nice,Because I was, you know,

(56:59):
baptized Catholic.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
And you still rock with any of that stuff.
You do any church type stuffthese days.
No, man.

Speaker 2 (57:04):
No, I got a whole different setup on that
spiritual journey.
Yeah, I feel you.
But yeah, so I got granny.
That's my godmother, also mystepmom's mom, so she's my
grandmother.
And then right across thestreet and down two houses, was
my dad's mom and my grandmother,barbara, and you know, both

(57:30):
amazing, beautiful women thatnever, ever once, tried to hurt
me.
Don't get me wrong.
Grandma she was a devoutCatholic and very disciplined,
you know what I mean but veryempathetic and soft at the same
time.
You know, yeah, structured,just loved the death out of me.

(57:52):
Grandma was.
She sent me books and books andbooks and books.
While I was locked up, shedidn't want me sitting on my
hands in there, she wanted melearning, she wanted me to, you
know, have something to show forall that time down, you know,
and I did.
I read over like 800 books inone stretch, you know.
And most Americans don't read abook front to back after high

(58:14):
school.
Ever again, it's fucking true,you know.
Yeah, that's true.
Americans don't read a bookfront to back after high school.
Ever again, it's fucking true,you know, yeah that's true, but
that's smart.

Speaker 1 (58:20):
I love those books absolutely yeah that's great.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
But yeah, so I I'm.
I'm lucky that I had that tofall back on in my subconscious
and later on in life, when Irealized it was a problem
between me and women I had, Isaid well, I have these two
great women in my life.
Why can't there be more?
You know, I fucking checkedmyself at some point and you

(58:50):
know I no longer hate women.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
Yeah, well, you love Sam.
Absolutely'll get into thatpart later.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
How did that change?
For me, though, right?
Yeah, well, I had a daughter.
That's a big one.
I had a daughter and I realizedI could no longer classify her
in one of those two roles thesex figure or the mom figure and
I learned women deserve respect.

(59:20):
I have a daughter.
There's no way I would wantanybody treating her the way
that I have been towards womenmy whole life.
You know there's absolutely noway, and so you know that
experience having her and theexperience with my, my granny
and my grandma that all togetherculminated into, like me,

(59:44):
looking further into that andjust changed completely the way
I looked at women.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
Can you think of a time or a moment that, uh, that
maybe spent with grammy orbarbara?
Um, that stick out to you, that, as like a good memory or
something you know?
Look back and remember typething.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
Yeah, you know, I was really young when I spent time
with them, actual time face toface.
Like I said after I went away tojuvie, yeah, I haven't seen
those people, except for just Ican count on one hand how many
times I've I've actually seenthem again, which one time was
just this last summer I wentback home with sam.

(01:00:29):
We took a trip because I toldher it'd been like 15 years
since I've seen any of them andthey're all like old and shit
now and like not doing that well, so we went back and and
reconnected.
But uh, I mean, just the waygranny would stick up for me
against my stepmom a long timeago when she was being brutal

(01:00:49):
back in the day, you know likeyou tell her to just shut up and
leave me alone and and then shewould like always tell me good
things about myself, you knowand positive reinforcement yeah,
absolutely, and just, you know,just love me man, period like,
and never freaking, hurt menothing, like no one event

(01:01:10):
really stuck out, just theirlives in general, you know,
would be that, I guess, yeah,the thing that sticks out,
that's important.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
This is a random question.
So you're 42 now, mm-hmm, wouldyou say overall, have you lived
a lonely life Like?
Has it felt like you were alonemost of it?
I know you don't feel that atall now because you've got Sam
and the kids and you havestructure and stability and I've
got family and stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
Now too, I'm reconnected with a lot of them.
It's still like over the phone,and if I don't call I don't
hear from them.
Still type deal, you know,which I wish was different, but
at least now the conversationsare different.
But, yeah, overall extremelylonely.
Antisocial behaviors andlifestyles are extremely lonely,

(01:02:01):
extremely safe, yeah, you know,for as long as they were, but
lonely as hell, yeah, absolutelyum od experiment, od experiment
oh, I, um, od, oh, oh, that was, uh, I think we were talking

(01:02:22):
about the time I went to saltlake and like was just, you know
, and that's when this wholelike recovery journey started
too was like like I was justover it.
I was tired of fucking being atthe bottom.
I was tired of like buildingmyself up in the prison, like
having this dream, having thisplan, and like you know one
little thing, I'd burn it down,and next thing, you know, I'm

(01:02:44):
getting back out of prison withnothing again Starting over,
starting over, starting over,you know, and I'm like, oh, I
just fucking disappoint people.
I just point myself, all I dois hurt people and I'm tired of
it.
I'm fucking tired of it.
And it was like, you know, theone time.
You know that like I was justdone, dude, and I fucking went

(01:03:06):
over to Salt Lake and likeparked this car.
I had left the keys in it, justleft it, with no intention to
ever getting back in it again.
And I didn't, you know, know,but because I end up getting
arrested, you know, severalweeks later.
But I walked around and and usedas much, you know, heroin as I
could for days and days and days, and at one point I had like

(01:03:31):
called my grandma, which didn'tanswer, you know, because it was
probably late or she was, youknow, at some church service or
bringing community to theelderly or something you know,
things that she did within thechurch, you know, and I like
yelled at her for praying for me.
She tells me every single time.
I talked to her like I pray foryou three times a day by name

(01:03:53):
from you and your brother, anddid it, it up, you know, I mean,
and I was upset because Ithought that, like women's
prayers were so strong that thathad to be the reason I was
still alive.
And she brought it up to me,you know, after I'd sobered up,
cleaned up for a year's time orso and was like what was up with
that phone call.

(01:04:13):
And then I told, I apologized, Isaid, grandma, I'm sorry I'm
even telling you this because Iknow how much you love me, but
this, this was the scenario.
And she's like you know,basically she, I would just say,
huh, christopher, you know whatI mean.
And like she's like, are youtesting my courage?
And you know, like upset, yeah,how could you?

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
you, you know which when you're in that spot, man,
you don't want to be hereanymore.
It's like.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
It's like you're saying your goodbyes, you know
yeah, I used to tell people I'ma narcissist, so there's no way
I'd ever kill myself.
Why would I kill the best thingthat ever happened to this
world?
But I'm not, you know, and yeah, anyway, that's funny.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
Uh, last 10 months, the last 10 months before that
when was the last time you gotlocked up like you haven't been,
oh that's.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
That's what that 10 months is about was the last
time I was incarcerated, 10months I had.
I had 10 months left on on myactive time and a five-year
probation tail, which is whatI'm on now.
So you had asked how much timeI did the last time I went in.
It was just that 10 months.
During that time, the onlything they had there was AA

(01:05:34):
meeting.
As far as recovery stuff, yeah,I tried to get into treatment
but I and I did kind of I got ononto uh, suboxone in the prison
, like that's tough the prisonthe prison freaking just started
this program.
You know it's called the the mapprogram.
It's uh, medicine, medicine,assisted treatment.

(01:05:55):
So I got on on you.
Give me some boxing strips forfive days, which is a drug they
commonly use in there to gethigh yeah, it gets smuggled in
all the same off her own, butit's just like a form of heroin,
right?

Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
no, it's kind of man it like.

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
It hits the same receptors, obviously, and gives
you a little euphoria stilladdicted, but it has like the
blocker to and it's reallyaddictive yeah but so they, they
give you that for five days tosee if your body can handle it,
and then they put you on theshot.
Um, it's once a month shot.
It lasts for a month.
It blocks opiates, so it givesyou like that time to even, like

(01:06:33):
you know, maybe I had aresentment, maybe I had a
relationship go bad, maybe, like, maybe I had a really fucking
good day and I want to get highover.
You know, maybe I had aresentment, maybe I had a
relationship go bad, maybe, like, maybe I had a really fucking
good day and I want to get highover it, you know, and burn my
life down, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
That's what we do.
Yeah, let's celebrate,motherfucker.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
I did great at work, I got a promotion, my life's
going great.
Why wouldn't I burn it down?
Yeah, that's the crazy shit.
We do that.
But so I got on that blockerand so it gives you that time to
like fucking play the tape allthe way through.
Like really, if I get hiredright now, I'm probably going to
go back to prison, probablygoing to get more felonies.

(01:07:07):
I'm back in touch with my kidsnow.
Like I'm going to fuckingdestroy them.
But it gives me that time toplay that tape all the way
through.
And I've been on I was on thatup until recently Like I can't
afford it.
Now it's like $1,400 or $1,700a shot and I just I mean I could

(01:07:27):
, yeah, but do you need it?
That's it, I don't.
You know, there's part of methat wants to be on it another
year just to keep this going,like, keep this foundation.

(01:07:48):
But it's been fucking threeyears now since I fucking use
any drugs, you know, like, yeah,it's like heroin, man, you know
any of that shit, you know.
So I got a pretty good littlefoundation going, you know, and
Sam was on it for a few yearstoo, and her mom's on it, and,
like Sam, she just did her lastshot today.
And I shouldn't even it'sprobably not even my place to
share this, but like she'sgetting off of it now too and

(01:08:10):
like I think I'm okay.
I think I'm okay, and if I'mnot, if I start having those
fucking, you know, I'm gonna getback on this shit because it's
worth it.
But so here's the part it's notaddictive.
So, yeah, if people want to getoff of the Suboxone, don't just

(01:08:32):
don't even do a step down onthat shit, because you're still
going to feel it.
And if I know anything aboutopiate addicts, they're scared
to death of withdrawals, eventhough they last only this much
long.
In the grand scheme of things,most opiate acts won't do it.
They just won't do it.
They're not going to do it,they're going to go find heroin
now to get rid of the fuckingsuboxone withdrawals you know,

(01:08:56):
so I recommend the shot to getoff of it because at the end of
that shot, once it stays, it canstay in your system for up to
18 months after you get thatshot.
So it's really just a slow,slow, slow.
That's pretty dope and you donot go through any withdrawals,
so it's amazing yeah, um yourfoundation, your lady, your kids

(01:09:18):
.
You got a house first house likemy first house I ever like
rented ever in my life was whenI was 27 in Missoula.
Like the first time I ever hadmy own place.
I was on the freaking paperwork.
Nobody could kick me out.
I was in there by myself.
I didn't have a girlfriendliving there.
I didn't live with some girlthat could kick me out.
I was in there by myself.

(01:09:39):
I didn't have a girlfriendliving there.
I didn't live with some girlthat could kick me out over a
freaking argument.
Like first time ever had my ownshit.
26 or I was 33.
27 was my first driver'slicense ever.
But this is the first house forsam and I both that were able
to actually purchase you know,like and we got a good deal on
it four percent interest, youknow what I mean.

(01:10:00):
Like you can't even get thatfrom a bank.
Um, it ain't the biggest houseor anything like that.
You know it's.
It's a four-bedroom house andon just a close to an acre, you
know, outside of town, so we canhave chickens and stuff like,
ride our little dirt bikes andwhatever, and, dude, it's a
place where when we shut thedoor, it's safe, like I said,

(01:10:23):
like we have everything we needout there.
I love that man.
That's the first time I've ever, ever, ever, ever had that man,
you know.
I mean, I had it home when Iwas a kid.
Yeah, yeah, my dad.
There was craziness within thewalls, but my dad was a good man
.
He worked, he went to school,he owned a handyman service on

(01:10:45):
the side or a business on theside or worked multiple jobs.
The downside of that was hejust wasn't there and he never
saw what was going on in thehouse with his wife.
He never saw what was going onin the house with his wife.
Yeah, fortunately, like thatrelationship has changed now too
.
Yeah, like you know, I tell herI love her all the time and she

(01:11:09):
says this I call her mom.
Like never in a million yearsdid I think I'd ever call that
lady mom Really when I was a kidabsolutely not.
It was horrible.
Yeah, it was horrible.
But when I was like 15 I wroteher like a 30 page letter and
named like everything she'd everfucking said to me.
That, just you know,reverberated in my fucking soul

(01:11:32):
every day, all the things thatdrove me down as a man, even you
know all the things that I usedfor so long to hurt everybody
else.
And I wrote that down and sentit to her.
And it's crazy because I talkedto her mom several years later,
in 2006, when I went back there, and that was one thing that

(01:11:54):
granny said.
She's like, hey, I want you toknow that when you wrote that
letter to laura when you were akid, she drove all the way from
deep river here ball and likefreaked out that you hated her
and that she hurt you so badlyand like she's, like I was

(01:12:15):
fucking life changing for her,like and you know it was crazy
because I named all those.
I got it all out on paper.
All that angsty shit, all thepain, all the fucking sadness,
all the disappointment, all thefears, everything.
And then, but by the end of itI had written to her I said but

(01:12:38):
I love you.
I love you because you make mydad happy and you make my two
brothers happy and somewhere inyou there's got to be something
good, basically so like and thenafter that, anytime I'd call
and talk to my dad, I'd ask totalk to her.
And I would say I love you mom.

(01:13:02):
She fucking didn't respond thefirst couple of times, it was
like just silent.
She's like, yeah, yeah, me too,you know.
Yeah.
But eventually, like there wassome fucking serious healing in
here.
You know, through that, likethat ability to like I feeling
in here, you know, through that,like that ability to like I

(01:13:22):
don't know, just overcome thatand say hey, I'm not gonna, I'm
not gonna carry this anymore.
Yeah, you know that.
And she was young when, whenall that happened, you know, she
didn't know how to deal with meand my brother coming from the
craziness we came from and thenjust dumped in her fucking lap
with her new husband yeah, who,she was pregnant, you know with

(01:13:43):
their first kid together.
Yeah, and I'm sure me andJeremy were a fucking handful
after coming out of that warzone we were living in, yeah,
for the last four or five years,you know so.
But these days there's likewe're great man, we're great,
it's crazy.
It's fucking changed Time heals.

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
Honestly it's, it's.
It's crazy Like my, my, my momand dad divorced a bunch of
years, completely like justtraumatic shit for everybody
involved, you know.
And uh, but now, like my, mom,want to come to Portugal.
She's always got a spot for youknow, I mean that they chop it

(01:14:21):
up on the internet.
You know, my dad's in Portugal,she's in the US, you know.
Yeah, sometimes hard to get ahold of me and my brother, you
know.
So they go to each other forinformation.
But I think maybe just the timespent and the commonality, and
when you go from that and it wastraumatic well, shit still
isn't good, like you still getfucked over by other people.

(01:14:43):
It's like, I don't know, wespent 20 years together or
whatever it was you know.
So I don't know, it's just it'scrazy seeing that now, but it
makes me happy.
Yeah, you know, like my mom'snot remarried, my dad's not
remarried, my dad's out thereplaying the field in thailand
every other month oh no, livingin trouble, living his dream?

(01:15:05):
yeah, absolutely.
But I, you know there's so muchgnarliness, but to see them
like that, like at peace, youknow, like it's it's nice to see
fucking peace, you know,because it's like I've never
seen it for so long, yeah, but Ithink it's made me a peaceful
person, like I'm not.
You know, we haven't been aroundeach other for a long time, but

(01:15:25):
it really does take a lot forme to like jump up another level
.
You know, like I feel like Istay pretty even keel, even when
I was younger.
It's like I never was like ahothead or nothing.
Even when I was younger, Inever was like a hothead or
nothing.
I was just an emotional.
I partied because I was good atthat and it helps you forget

(01:15:46):
shit.
So that's why I got good at it.
So good at partying, yeahabsolutely, but you never that
shit saved my life for a longtime, bro.

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
I'm not even gonna lie.
I wouldn't be here if it wasn'tfor Aravind and even booze.
Back in the day that was likemy major beginnings, just
drinking from sunup to sundownand then some, you know, and I
believe it saved my life.
And then there was a point inmy life where it fucking just

(01:16:15):
switched and it started to killme.
Yeah, it started to just fuckingdevastate my life Like
literally kill me.
I guess that's kind of what ittook.
That was, you know.
Turns out, my bottom has a foot, my rock bottom has a fucking
basement.
You know what I mean Like.
And you know it got to thepoint where, like the pain and

(01:16:41):
disparity of going one morefucking step in that life um was
stronger than the fear of doingsomething different and it
fucking switched came on.

Speaker 1 (01:17:00):
What do you think?
The fear of doing somethingdifferent?
Where does that come from?

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):
I don't know.
I've just done this.
I mean, when you put 30 yearsinto something, it's just like
getting a fucking occupation,getting a career for 30 years,
and then just saying, well, fuck, I'm no longer into this.
It's gotta be scary to fuckinggo and try some new venture that
you've never done before.

(01:17:24):
So and I was afraid to get offthe drugs because, like, they're
fucking saving my life.
Yeah, I know they're hurting menow, but they can't be all bad.
It's gonna go.
It's gonna be good againsomeday.
Like it's gonna feel good againsomeday.

Speaker 1 (01:17:37):
Yeah, right, like yeah, so, but escaping the pain,
and.

Speaker 2 (01:17:42):
But the pain got too unbearable, like it was killing
me too fast, too fan, hurtingeverybody around me too much,
and so that outweighed the fearand, you know, change started to
happen.
There was a desperation toowith that pain, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:18:06):
You're 42.
I feel like you definitely livelike a rough ass.
You know hardcore life, but youlook pretty young.
You look like you're not 42.
Thank you, I just thought I'dthrow that out there.

Speaker 2 (01:18:16):
I got grand babies.
Oh yeah, grand babies.
Yeah, I just thought I'd throwthat out there.
Oh, you got grandbabies.
Oh yeah, that's right,grandbabies.
Yeah, I got two grandbabies, myoldest daughter.
She's, you know, little Basil.
She's two years old, she's hada birthday not too long ago and
now I have Ivory, who's a couplemonths old now, and I got to
see Ivory for the first time afew weeks ago.

(01:18:37):
My daughter called me and indespair, and it was like eight
o'clock at night.
We'd both just gotten off work.
Sam had just worked a 12-hourshift and sam could hear the
despair in my daughter's voiceover the phone and, without even
asking me, she ran downstairsand told her mom hey, can you

(01:18:59):
take care of the boys?
I think we're going to drive tobozeman tonight and it was
fucking snow and it wasblizzarding now and we fucking
jumped in the car and we droveover there even just to be able
to fucking give her a hug, man,and be there for her.
You know a little bit and thoseare.
Those are some of the fuckingpriceless things that I get the
opportunity to do today.
Yeah, to just fucking show upin their lives, you know,

(01:19:23):
whether it's family, friends, mykids.
Yeah, I get the opportunity tofucking show up.
You don't get it either.
And that is such a blessing,dude, that's huge.
It fucking fills my heart.
My heart is full.
I love that.
My life is full, and I don't Iwouldn't change it, I wouldn't
trade it for the world anymore,you know.

(01:19:44):
But yeah, I got, I gotgrandbabies now.
It's fucking awesome.
I wish I could see him more.
But so ivory, the new one, youhave to meet her.
Finally, but unfortunately, Ididn't get to hold her because
I'd spent like three or fourweeks previous to that he sick.
I mean that sickness that wentaround, yeah, and I fucking

(01:20:05):
freaked a little bit aboutholding her because they hate,
oh yeah, you know, like that'slike some PTSD shit.
Yeah, they're like I didn'twant to get near, like I didn't
want to touch her and I felt bad.
I even wrote to my daughter.
I'm like I'm so sorry that Ididn't want to touch her and I
felt bad.
I even wrote to my daughter.
I'm like I'm so sorry that Ididn't hold Ivory or anything,
you know, but like I was sickand she's like actually I knew
that and I'm glad you chose notto.

(01:20:25):
She's like I didn't really wantyou to hold her.
Yeah, you know.
So that worked out.
Yup, six years recovery haveyou been in recovery.
No, um, no.
So when I talked to you Ithought it was like six you know
that I've been chasing it, butit's more like nine now, since I
had like that first fucking,like I'm gonna fucking, you know

(01:20:47):
, yeah, start figuring this out.
And I started really gettinginvolved in different recovery
groups and, yeah, servicepositions and different things
like that, like trying to figureout what mixture it was going
to take.
And I'm still like I'm finallypretty solid.
You know it's been a few yearsnow and I, you know I don't go

(01:21:07):
to a lot of like those meetingsthat I just feels really cultish
to me and I'm not, I'm notknocking a and a like it got me
a long ways.
It it really did.
It held me for a long time.
I wouldn't be here without it.
But like I think, and maybe I'llgo again sometime, but like

(01:21:29):
right now, you know, I've gotlike other things that I do
actively to like I don't knowthey say, you know I say now,
now, like if you're not doingsomething to fucking recover,
then you're doing something tostay sick that day.
And it's a day-to-day thing,like every day, and I do things
you know, mind, body, spirit, ohyeah, every day.

(01:21:52):
Every day, you know, and itain't in front of everybody and
it ain't fucking great it, itain't something big.
But you know, I make sure, likeI pray to whoever whatever, you
know what I mean, it's nobody'sbusiness.

Speaker 1 (01:22:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:22:06):
But I make sure I pray, I make sure like if I
fucking offended anybody, if Ihurt anybody, I fucking make
those amends pretty god damnquick these days, straight up,
don't let it sit here and burn.
If somebody's offended me, Itry to figure out and this is

(01:22:27):
stuff I learned from AA I figureout what my part was in it so I
can stop fucking burning.
They don't know, I'm stillfucked up about it and they
don't care.
They're living their life.
It's me over here just brewingabout it and I'm fucking my own
life up and they're living doingtheir own shit.

(01:22:47):
So I make sure and do that and Ievery day, you know, at night,
reflect on like all the thingsI'm grateful for and that puts
me in check.
That's good.
Um, there's just a few things,but anyway, what's it?
No matter what club, huh, nomatter what, I ain't fucking
getting high, no matter what, Idon't care what happens.

(01:23:09):
That's another fucking, youknow.
I don't know which recoverygroup that's from, or whatever,
but it's something I learnedalong the way.
Like I don't have to get hightoday.
I don't have to get high, Idon't have to fucking commit
crimes, I, you know what I mean.
I don't have to fucking attemptsuicide, you know all those
things.
Like I don't have to do thatshit.

(01:23:30):
Today I have a choice now, yep,and for the longest time I
didn't feel like there was achoice, you know, and even if
there was, at times I didn'twant.
Like there was a choice, youknow, and even if there was, at
times I didn't want the otherchoice.
It's like your brain makes thechoice, but at least I have one
now.
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
Like I started doing drugs, youknow, and then the drugs
started doing me, you know, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:23:54):
I've been doing dialectical behavior therapy, oh
yeah, DBT.
I spend a lot of time alonethese days, but I've been able
to grow and heal and conquer andget through things that I
usually.
There's always someone there tohelp or lift me up or something

(01:24:15):
like that.
Yeah there to help or lift me upor something like that.
Yeah, and it truly is a thingto face it completely alone.
You know, even if it's so hardto do, and it's like something
you've never even thought likethat's the way to do it, it's
like I'd always want, like well,someone will care, you know,
somebody will make this pain goaway or feel yeah, but it will

(01:24:36):
never go away if you don't faceit yourself yeah, no, absolutely
dude.
Face that shit, have to facethat shit I have to, or or it'll
be the cycle of hurting othersor whatever.
Yeah, cycle maybe, but breakingthe cycle is possible.
Uh, in a lot of the podcasts Iwrite it in the description that

(01:24:58):
it's never too late for anyoneto make a change, and I 1000%
believe that you know, I agreeto a point.

Speaker 2 (01:25:11):
Somebody asked me that question when's it too late
to get sober, when's it toolate to get fucking clean?
And I'm like, of course, whenyou're dead, you know.
And he's like, well, I'll tellyou something.
He's like, when I first gotsober, the guy that I got sober
with made me go to the mentalhospital on the floor where they

(01:25:31):
keep all the people that areincontinent.
Basically, they drank so much,they got water, brain, oh shit,
and they can no longer choose tobe sober.
At that point they're juststuck in bed pissing shit, and
you know, getting bed sores, andat that point it is too fucking
late to get sober.

(01:25:53):
To make that choice and to livethat good life.
You know, period, you can't doit ever so.
But no, I got.

Speaker 1 (01:26:01):
That's an extreme, but yeah, at the same time, yeah
, dude like yeah, there's apoint, I guess, a boiling point
for everyone.

Speaker 2 (01:26:07):
Yeah, some people don't make it out of rock bottom
well, no, dude, I've lost somany people in this last 10
years, bro, like people that Ifucking love and care about, to
suicide, to overdoses, and likejust that lifestyle man Like I'm
not even joking.
Probably in the last 10 yearsit's got to be over 50 people
that I've known and been closewith.

(01:26:29):
You know, like in somewhere inour doings, like they're fucking
dead now over this shit.
Isn't that fucking nuts?
They rode it till the wheelsfell off, for real, you know,
yeah, and some of them I'd seenin in a fight to recover.
You know, to get away from thatand doing pretty decent, you

(01:26:53):
know.
And then what bad relationshiprelapse, chronic relapse.
You know, relapse like Chronicrelapse that's one thing a lot
of people always did.
I've been told so many timesrelapse is part of recovery and
I'm like the fuck it is.
It's part of the disease.
Dude, you don't have to fuckingrelapse.
You don't ever have to do that.

(01:27:16):
I did.
It's part of my fucking storystory, but it doesn't have to be
, it's not.
You know, you don't have to do.

Speaker 1 (01:27:23):
do more fucking investigating you know, I think,
uh, being able to like say noto shit is like a big one, like
I had the hardest time doingthat for the longest yeah um,
and then like, because thatcomes with the party lifestyle,
you know Like nobody wants to goto sleep at this time because

(01:27:43):
it's still a party, you know.
So it's like, well, I know Ishould, you've been missing out
on all this shit.
Yeah, when you know, like Ilove that you guys still try to
make an effort to go do things.

Speaker 2 (01:27:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:27:53):
But you understand how important it is for to get
the right place with the rightpeople.

Speaker 2 (01:27:57):
Yeah, absolutely, man , absolutely, we do, dude I.
I showed you that book that shehad made and that's just our
adventures in the last year.
Like I know, you guys go wildlike I've.
You know, I've gone on roadtrips before, but for one
fucking reason and one reasononly, and that was because I
heard they had some good shit inthis state, in this particular

(01:28:18):
area, and that's it.
Like I went to Seattle severaltimes and never saw the ocean.
You know, yeah, I finally sawthe ocean when I got to I
remember what part of Californiaon the 101 when I got on it.
But I rode that thing fromVentura Basically all the way to
san luis obispo, cal poly.

(01:28:40):
Yep, you know, yeah, becausethat's a secret, I took a little
beach and yeah, all that shit,I did that same fucking train
actually.
No, I was driving.
Oh, you're driving, okay, yeah,on the 101, the highway right
there oh yeah, I was, uh, yeah,dude.
When I got to santa barbara, Ifucking well, I lost my shit
right outside of ventura.
That's when I first seen theocean.

(01:29:00):
It was like two o'clock in themorning, it was a full moon.
I could see it in the ocean andI could see it in the sky.
It was january.
I had my windows rolled down,it was like 65 degrees.
I could smell the ocean and Iwas driving hella slow compared
to everyone else.
People were getting pissedgoing around me, flip me off and
everything, and I was fuckingcrying dude, because I I was
like I've never, never, neverexperienced this, bro, and I

(01:29:23):
spent like I was.
At the time, I had thisgirlfriend just driving nuts and
I told her I was going out fora pack of cigarettes, gassed up
my vehicle and I drove all theway to california to pick up
another friend of mine, yeah,and I ended up staying out there
for like a month.
You know, yeah, just like notever wanting to leave.

Speaker 1 (01:29:42):
Yeah, but anyway, yeah, yeah, how about I miss so
much?
You and Sam, you and Sam, yeah,you and Sam.
She's a huge positive yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:06):
She's like you know, we met in one of the recovery
groups years ago, quite a longtime ago, and I think she was
several years, clean and sober,and you know whatever was going
on in her life.
And I met her in there and thenthe next time I ran into her
was in a dope house.
Man, we were both fucking backon the shit.

(01:30:26):
We were both, you know, selling, and we collaborated a little
bit on all that and went throughcrazy shit.
And then she fucking gotarrested, over in Idaho, I think
, and she spent 10 days in jailand she came back to Missoula

(01:30:50):
and started working for thisexcavating company and she
hadn't fucking looked back since, man.
But when I finally ended up injail, we had been kind of
estranged for like a year and Iran into this dude that knew her
and I was like do you have herphone number by chance?
And he's like, well, I'll callmy brother and get it.

(01:31:14):
And he gave it to me and hecalled her first and like she
really wasn't that excited totalk to him, I guess, or
whatever.
But I called her and as soon asI said, hey, this is crazy.
And she's like oh my god, I'vebeen worried about you for the
last year because I blocked herfrom everything you know.
Yeah, um, but damn man, likeshe, she didn't let me in right

(01:31:40):
away.
I'll tell you that much it was.
And I knew, like she was mybest friend man, like I knew she
was such a beautiful, likesolid person and just my kind of
person.
Yeah, we can laugh all the time.
We have so much fun I love that.

(01:32:00):
But like, and she told meshe's's like I ain't dating no
dude, that's in prison, fuckthat, whatever, whatever.
But when I got out, like youknow, I started like putting in
the work and being consistent,and that's what she tells me now
.
That's what got her was theconsistency and the you know
doing it.
Like everything that I wassaying was matching what I was
doing yeah, you know what I mean.

(01:32:21):
And it came to the point wherewe're like let's just put her
fucking lives together, man.
Like we've both been throughsome shit in our life and like
and I trust her shit.
Like, honestly, this is thefirst like girlfriend, like that
I've ever fucking believed.
When she said I love youbecause she doesn't have to say

(01:32:42):
it.
Like her fucking the way shecooks for it, the way she cares
for us, like me and the kids andgrandma and like all of us.
Like she is so amazing man andlike she, like I said, she
doesn't have to tell you sheloves you, like she fucking
shows you, man, and I've learneda lot from her in that respect

(01:33:02):
and I'm learning how to like, dothat myself.
Like, fuck that.
You know, I love you, love you,love you.
So what, what are you going todo about it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
How are you going to love mefor real, honestly?

Speaker 1 (01:33:19):
Like me, for real, honestly, like I'm learning how
to do it.
She's, she's an angel.
She showed.
She's showing you how to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:33:22):
Yeah, now you're implementing what I'm saying.
Yeah, exactly a.
You don't want to marry thatgirl?
Um, in fact, I'm married to her, like like yeah, you know what
it means.
Spiritual way, indian way, likehowever you want to put it.
Like, between me, her and thespirits, the universe, we're
already united.
Yeah, I love that.

(01:33:42):
You know, I feel like we'realready married yeah uh, a lot
of people.
I'm gonna give her that down onone knee like the real deal.

Speaker 1 (01:33:51):
I can't have that in her first marriage either.
So you guys are gonna do itright, I know it, um, you know,
because love is thrown aroundlike a motherfucker these days,
you know.
And to actually have theconsistent actions, yeah, that's
fucking me.

Speaker 2 (01:34:10):
Yeah, I mean she, she .
We've been through some thingstoo since we've been together.
Like not not the type of likecrazy shit we went through.
Like yeah, yeah, in that otherlife, but like we've we butted
heads sometimes and like it'snever a fucking blowout fight,
it's never crazy.
Yeah, um, by the next morningit's fucking.

(01:34:30):
One of us is like that's howyou know what I mean.
Like get over here, yeah, yeah,you know what I mean.
Like get over here, yeah, yeah,you know what I mean, and it
usually doesn't even take thatlong.
Like dude, yeah, we've beenthrough some shit, and even
through that, like we still showeach other love.

(01:34:51):
That's important.

Speaker 1 (01:34:52):
And you guys work your ass off, do your thing, you
got wrestling now.

Speaker 2 (01:34:56):
Yeah, we got the boys in the sports.
You know we're like all right,you guys went all the way for
that.
Yeah, it's been great man,we've done a lot.
Now we got him in baseball.
And then comes soccer and I'mlooking for Greco Roman in
freestyle wrestling for at leastmax in the off season.
The sharpening skills.
He loves it.
Like no way did.

(01:35:18):
I think if you would've askedme, you know, years ago if I
thought I'd be fucking settlingdown doing the deal, yeah, no
way.
Anytime a girl even made spacein a drawer for me, I was like
see, ya Jumped on my horse androde out, rode out.
But no, we're great man, I lovethat man, yeah um, really it's

(01:35:42):
raining, it's raining it'sraining.
That's crazy.
I just opened up a huge assbuilding like, took the roof off
, the rafters off and everything.
Well, it was a pool under thereanyway, so yeah, um there

(01:36:03):
anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:36:04):
So yeah, um yeah, I'm doing my my thing, you know you
kind of know my plans.
Yeah what I got going on theshit.

Speaker 2 (01:36:06):
Um, yeah, you know, I hope I want to be involved in
that somehow.
Yeah, I'm some.
Yeah, however, however, rightnow, like I just want to see it,
yeah, I want to see it.
Yeah, I want to see your shitflourish too, bro, and it sounds
like it is.
You know, it's fucking.
It's when you haven't had Ihaven't had like a lot of good

(01:36:27):
Right, a lot of wins.

Speaker 1 (01:36:29):
Yeah, I mean, but a lot of it are my own fault
Losses, just cycles, you know.
And so it's like I don't gotnobody else to blame but myself
in a lot of the situations um, alot of.
But most of the good came from,like, the love I received, you
know, from from others.
Uh, but like this is like legit.

(01:36:50):
I put my heart, sweat, tears,energy.
All I do is fucking grind atthis shit every day, and then my
other job shit and being a dad,and that literally takes up the
everything of time.
But they're all positive thingsso that shit changed everything

(01:37:15):
for me.
But, yeah, I want you to comecheck it out, come do all that
I'm actually.
I got asked to do my nextpublic speaking event in Grand
Junction, colorado.
I'm going to go talk to I'm noteven sure what the group is,
but my homie Jorge on thepodcast.
He asked me to go speak to agroup of people about, I guess,

(01:37:39):
guess mental health and myjourney and my story and things
that I've learned along the way.
Oh yeah, and just what I'velearned from people just doing
this.
That shit has, yeah, turned meinto the best version of myself.

Speaker 2 (01:37:51):
Mine is a great platform man.
I'm glad y'all are doing thishonestly, like it's like.
It's like a.
It's like kind of a.
It's like a long little therapysession you know what I mean.
Like for both of us, straightup 100 man, I get so much out of
this yeah, I really do.
I do too.
It's draining.
You know like I'm drained rightnow, emotionally.
I feel it.

(01:38:12):
Yeah, you know, living backthere again, like even just in
my head, living back there again, like even just in my head, but
it's not not as, not as drainedas like all that bullshit used
to make me you know, still outhere thriving when it when it
releases, though over time itgets lighter.

(01:38:33):
Yeah, you know, yeah yeah, itloses power, that's a damn sure.
Yeah, and heaviness, that's,that's kind of like.
I know a lot of people like youknow one thing I want to say to
if people are listening, youknow like, like, don't think you
have to come out here and justlike spill the beans to
everybody the first time youmeet them, or whatever,

(01:38:54):
overshare all that stuff.
It's kind of unattractiveactually sometimes.
But like, just find, find asafe person place thing, get it
out, man, get it out, face itdown, get it out, get rid of it
somehow.
Like, whatever you gotta do,man, because there is no moving

(01:39:17):
on, well, it's just weighing youdown.
They don't keep coming out.
You know like I literally amone of them.
People that didn't even like toshave because I couldn't look
myself in the fucking face.
You know Like that.
And today, like I fucking Ilove myself.
You know I love, like how Ilove myself.

Speaker 1 (01:39:40):
You know I love like hello.
That's fucking outlive, youknow that's everything honestly,
until somebody can learn how todo that, the world will be not
as it should be yeah you know,and maybe it's because we're
missing that love early on inlife.
You know most likely, but it'snever too late for anyone to
make that change, just likeyourself, just like many others.

(01:40:02):
And now I'm at this point, andyou're at this point where
you're going to be able to helpothers because of your story and
your journey.
So we're definitely going tohave some plans yeah, that's,
that's definitely on my mine.

Speaker 2 (01:40:14):
It's a passion that I just don't.
I'm excited to see, like where.
You know this higher power andmy work.
You know, prayer effort, prayereffort, prayer action, prayer
action.
You know where that takes me,because I have no idea.
I have ideas of what I want todo and how I want to help people

(01:40:38):
, but that's not exactly howit's going to turn out.
I know that.
But I'm excited to see what Ican get into and I'm excited to
see miracles in other people'slives, you know, because of the
hard work that they put in.
You know, and if I can help inany way, like holler, you know,

(01:40:59):
straight up, my name's gonna beon this podcast.
Look me up, whatever.
Yeah, oh, look RJ up, you gotshot.
You know, oh, yeah, that was wegotta throw that story out there
real quick.
Oh, it's just a story, man,it's just.
You know, in that drug life,you know, ended up.
You know, ended up.

(01:41:19):
You know, in a situation thatwasn't even my fault, man, but
somebody said it was so,somebody else that was a kid man
.
A kid, young kid, 17 year oldkid, and some older guys kicked
in my door at like three o'clockin the morning or something.
Yeah, one day and he's pointing, screaming, yelling, pointing

(01:41:39):
the gun in my face.
I was sitting up on the end ofmy height of bed in my living
room like just looking up at himand he's like going crazy with
this pistol and finally he'slike it, I'm gonna kill you,
racks one back and goes to shoveit in my face and I grabbed it
and he discharged right throughmy hand and out my wrist here
and through the wall behind me.

(01:42:02):
And the funny thing is that thiswhole deal came full circle too
, bro.
So his buddies that were withhim straight up told on him,
went to the police station,scared to death, you know what I
mean.
But so he ends up locked upover the deal and um, um, this

(01:42:23):
is around the time that so mydaughter passes away and then a
few weeks later you know my wifesleeping with my best friend.
I fucking lose it Off the deepend.
I get in trouble.

(01:42:44):
Behind that situation that wasone of the big things that sent
me to prison was the violencebehind that relationship that
they had together.
And then, you know, I did abunch of forgeries, anyway.
So I'm in jail like facingprison time with several like
six felonies and victim services.

(01:43:07):
Comes and pulls me out of mycell to ask me to testify
against this kid that shot me,oh shit.
And I'm like, absolutely not.
I'm not going to do it, I'm notgoing to fucking fucking do it.
And they're like, well, he'strying to get out on bond, like
we don't want him back out onthe streets.
Like you need to say something,you need to write a letter to

(01:43:28):
the judge and like, keep it.
Whatever you're the victim inthis situation and we're here to
, like you know, talk you intotestifying basically or saying
something negative about thiskid.
Yeah, so I, like you know, talkyou into testifying basically
or saying something negativeabout this kid.
So I was like you know what I'mdone talking to you.
First of all, I shouldn't evencame out here to talk to you
without somebody else listeningto what I'm saying to you right

(01:43:50):
now, because that's kind of arule.
Well, no, like somebody from theblock like no, I'm not out
there talking to the policesnitching on you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah snitching orsomething you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:44:00):
I mean because that's .

Speaker 2 (01:44:01):
That's kind of like you're not allowed to go talk to
them in a room by yourselfwithout somebody else.
They're gonna think you're right, yeah, right, so I'm telling
them I've already been over heretoo long, like, yeah, I'm out
of here, yeah, yeah.
So I get back to my cell andI'm thinking like, all right,
well, I got to write a letter tothe judge, right?
So I sit down and I'm I'm I'm awriter man.

(01:44:21):
Yeah, I'm a reader and my verylike best subject in school when
I went to school and writing,yeah, yeah, arts and literature.
Absolutely, I love words.
You should write a fucking bookCrazy.

Speaker 1 (01:44:36):
About your life.

Speaker 2 (01:44:37):
Not my life.
I'll write about someone else'slife maybe, but uh, yeah, but
uh.
So I sit down and write thisletter, you know, and there was
never any intention to like tolike, you know, oh, this piece
of shit, he needs to be lockedup.
He fucking shot me, and youknow none of that.
And I didn't know what myintention was.
I was just gonna, you know, sitthere and put pen to paper.

(01:44:57):
I didn't know what my intentionwas.
I was just gonna, you know, sitthere and put pen to paper.
I didn't know what was gonnahappen.
But I wrote this fucking letterto the judge about the injustice
that I faced as a young kidgetting locked up for running
away from home, for all thiscrazy shit happening in my life,
and every time I ran from oneof them, places getting locked

(01:45:20):
up and more secure, more secure,more secure.
Pretty soon I'm in a fuckingjuvenile prison and I got nobody
coming to see me, no onetalking to me, and I'm learning
from all these fucking kids inthere that are straight fucking
gangsters Kids how to be afreaking you know what I mean,

(01:45:46):
how to be a convict.
Eventually, basically, you know, and I'm like the fucking
system ruined my life.
You know, I'm like this kid's17 years old.
I said I can't for surely tellyou if it was him or not.
It was dark, it was fast, itwas scary.
I said so I'm never going tofucking say it was.
I said, hey, listen, if youwant to help this kid, really

(01:46:09):
want to help this kid and keepyour community safe.
I said it says right in thepaper it was over drugs or
something.
He's got drug problems,whatever.
Get him some help for that.
I said also make him finishhigh school, not gd, make him
finish fucking high school, gethis goddamn diploma, yeah.

(01:46:30):
And then, uh, I don't know.
I said some other things.
Like I said, you know, if youwant justice done to this
community and for me as a victimof the system also, you're not
going to lock this fucking kidup for the rest of his life,
yeah, over 30 seconds of hisfucking life.
Make him fuck.
And so the judge read thisfucking letter and ended up

(01:46:52):
dropping all the charges to adeferred prosecution.
So anybody who knows anythingabout that, like deferred
sentence is different.
Deferred imposition of sentenceis way different.
Like that means like if youdon't up, we'll, we'll expunge
it.
You're charged, you're a felon.
Well, a deferred process iswe're not even gonna charge you

(01:47:14):
unless you up yeah in this nextthree years.
Well, this kid ends up fuckinglike I think he got in trouble
years, years after this.
But like he owns uh, I don'tknow, I don't know exactly what
the business alpine customs orsomething like that, or alpine
construction or something likethat, over in bozeman.
Yeah, yeah, he does these bigconcrete jobs like he turned his

(01:47:37):
life around too.
You know what I mean, based onlike yeah, and I ran into people
after getting out of prison andonce they realized I was the
kid that joe shot.
You're like, oh man, fucking,that letter you wrote for him.
I wouldn't even have my niecesand nephews today if you
wouldn't have wrote that letter.
And like all this shit.
Like it was crazy that at 20years old, I had enough fucking,

(01:47:58):
like, yeah, empathy, and forsomebody that just shot me bro,
yeah, yeah, yeah to to like, andI, I still knew that the system
would do more damage to thatkid than than I ever could, you
know, and and I didn't want thatfor him, I didn't want that for
anybody, and I still don.

Speaker 1 (01:48:17):
Yeah, that's why you're so passionate about what
you want to do, Absolutely man,that's kind of crazy.
It has to be crazy, you knowturn of events.
On top of all that, I want tosalute you and give you one of
these real quick, becausethere's a fucking, there's a
code and nobody sticks with itanymore in these days.

(01:48:40):
Yeah, absolutely not.
This shit has changed so much,and if you would have thrown me
in that same position, I meanfirst of all, it'd be the same.
I ain't saying nothing tonobody.
There's no reason to do thatand you were part of the system.
You've seen what it did to youand others and you know what his
future could have been like.

Speaker 2 (01:48:58):
Yeah, I mean, that's just the human code right there.
Yeah, I mean, that's not evenconvict shit either.
That's like fuck that.
I don't want nobody behind bars.
Yeah, I mean, hey, he'ssnitching on nobody.
Yeah, no, I don't need to gonnado, they're gonna get caught on

(01:49:21):
their own.
Man.
The police have a job to do.
Man, nobody comes and pounds myfucking nails for me, right?

Speaker 1 (01:49:24):
I am not doing your job for you.
Whatever energy doesn't lie,you know, whatever you put out
into the universe, you know,yeah, I'm, I feel like I've been
doing nothing, but try myhardest to put good out there
and I think that's why isworking for me now and I I
firmly believe that you know,and probably same for you, like
you, oh yeah, you're doing yourthing now yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:49:47):
It's slow and steady, that's all I know.
I'm not like that's one thingtoo.
I'm gonna say don't shut up.
I talk a lot sometimes, but I'mvery passionate about it.
It's like like, don't expectall this one day, man.
Don't put that much pressure onyourself.
I mean, anything worth havingis worth waiting for and working
for and like, oh man, just ifyou find yourself in a position

(01:50:15):
to where you're having to forceto happen, then it ain't right.
It ain't right at all, man,because that's what we did when
we were out there in that otherlife, man, we, we forced
everybody, like I needed to saythis, so I know you'll say this
so that I have the opportunityto get in there and hustle you
for this and get over and dothat and like forcing every

(01:50:35):
fucking day to happen.
Yeah, not letting you know whatI mean.
I I would like you know like god, pulling strings everywhere and
forcing everything, everybodyelse, to my will, man, and that
cost me a lot of fucking likemental pain, dude.
Like you, can't, you can't, youcan't control life, like that

(01:50:57):
man, but it like I, like I checkmy motherfucking motives If I
find myself in that positionwhere, like I want something so
bad, I'm going to fucking doanything to get it.
Now I'm going to force this tohappen.
Yeah, fuck that.
Uh-uh, it ain't meant to be,not right now.
It might be down the road.

(01:51:17):
It'll come to you if it is.
And 10 times, 10 times out of10.
Now it turns out better when Itake a step back and stop
forcing it than I ever imaginedin the first place.
That's crazy.
Yeah, like the doors that getopened because I allowed that
one to shut 10 times better Ifyou let it go if it comes back

(01:51:39):
then it's meant to be.

Speaker 1 (01:51:40):
You know, yeah, absolutely, man, stop forcing
shit.
We got a lot of fucking reallygood shit.
Man, this is probably, like nocap, one of my favorite fucking
conversations I've had.
I really appreciate you doingthis and you're busy as fuck and
we've tried a couple times.

Speaker 2 (01:51:58):
Yeah, we did.
I'm sorry, I felt like man itdoesn't feel like we pulled him
off.
I just can't fuck him.
You got mad shit going on.

Speaker 1 (01:52:04):
You got wrestling at State yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:52:07):
I'm going to State Maximus.
Shout out to Maximus Try justworking your ass off out there.
Shout out to fucking MattDevils.

Speaker 1 (01:52:19):
Glendive Matt Devils.
Glendive Matt Devils, it's beena great season.
I want you to shout out, I wantyou to your final monologue on
your journey on mental health,on addiction recovery, changes,
fatherhood, whatever you wantyou know, family, whatever you
think is important for you toget out there to people that you
would like them to hear beforeyou go on to the next chapter of

(01:52:44):
your life.

Speaker 2 (01:52:46):
I mean it's kind of cliche, but at the same time,
like, dude, just keep walking,no matter what.
Like this too shall pass, right, like if, if, if you're going
through hell, it's gonna pass,if everything's fucking great in
your life, that's gonna passtoo.
And it's gonna get shitty again, yeah, but just keep going.
Yeah, keep fucking going.

(01:53:07):
Man, don't don't sit on yourhands in time of peace, you know
, because when war comes theyain't gonna be ready, basically
ready, basically Like, just keepwalking, yeah, and that's.
I mean, that is like the likeaction, action, action, action.
I don't know, I can't stressenough, like if you ain't

(01:53:30):
working against it, like you'reworking for it.
You know what I mean For thatsickness.

Speaker 1 (01:53:37):
For that sickness.
Hell yeah, straight up, bro.
Yeah, this has been reallyhelpful for me.
I'm getting ready to embark onanother chapter of my life when
I'm just closing the door on thefucking gnarliest one of pain,

(01:53:59):
growth and perseverance yeah,but I only know a little bit
about, about your story, man,but like, yeah, that's fucking
awesome, dude, I see it, it'sgreat.

Speaker 2 (01:54:10):
I want to see more.
If there's anything we can do,sam and I know I'm speaking for
her right now, but it's anythingwe can do to help in any way.

Speaker 1 (01:54:18):
Like you know, you know you're, you know we're
homies, bro, I, I Don't have alot of that anymore.
Yeah, um, I see why.
I understand man now, but Ijust I commend you for going

(01:54:41):
through hell and fightingthrough it, not giving up,
keeping on walking like you'redoing, and now the flowers are
fucking coming out.
You know, and you're fuckingyoung 42.
You got so much shit toGrandpa's young.
Still, I love that, bro.
Well, yeah, man, man, I justwant to say Thank you so much

(01:55:01):
For doing this, absolutely Thankyou and thanks.
Thanks for keeping this solid.
I appreciate you.
We're going to be homies Tillthe day they put us in, drop us
in that casket, yeah, wheneverthat may be.
But yeah, I want to say Thankyou, man, and peace out
everybody.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for listening.

(01:55:23):
I'm taking a break because Igot a lot going on right now,
but I'm probably just going toput this one out and let it
chill while I get to it.

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Hanging with Humans Podcast | Episode 23 | Chris Langer

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Hanging with Humans Podcast | Episode 23 | Chris Langer