Hanging with Humans Podcast | Episode 27 | Thomas Egbert

What happens when your entire life is ripped away by a justice system that fails you? Tom's story offers a raw look at resilience in the face of catastrophic injustice.

At just 21 years old, Tom watched his promising career as a lead auto technician crumble when he was wrongfully convicted and sentenced to 20 years in prison for a crime committed by someone else. Despite the shooter receiving only a six-year sentence (and serving just three), Tom faced the devastating reality that his life as he knew it was over. Knowing he was innocent, Tom made the difficult decision to fight his case. This is his story.. 

Behind prison walls, Tom navigated a brutal environment defined by racial segregation, violence, and a complete absence of rehabilitation. Yet in this darkness, he found unexpected mentorship from an Aryan Brotherhood member with legal expertise who gave him crucial advice: "Ain't nobody going to get you out of this shit but you." Taking this to heart, Tom taught himself the law, filing appeals and motions while working for mere cents per hour in the prison kitchen.

The story takes a remarkable turn when Tom's childhood sweetheart discovers him through a letter crossing her desk at the child support enforcement office. After reading his case transcripts and recognizing the miscarriage of justice, she stands by him throughout his remaining sentence, becoming his anchor to the outside world.

Tom's mechanical genius — becomes his salvation. From rebuilding a 1967 Camaro as a youth to his current work restoring vehicles and equipment, Tom's ability to fix broken things serves as both livelihood and metaphor for his own life journey.

Now rebuilding his life day by day, Tom faces the ongoing challenge of employment discrimination due to his record, while fighting for stability and trying to create a meaningful future with his wife—whose family has disowned her for choosing to be with him. This is that for real love.<3

Have you ever considered how easily your life could be derailed by a flawed system? Listen to Tom's powerful testimony of perseverance, and discover what it truly means to rebuild a life from the ground up.

There was a moment in the conversation, when Tom is explaining what was going through his young fragile mind. When sitting in his cell waiting and preparing for violence to erupt as soon as his cell door opens. 

I had chills running through me, as I listened to this story of a young man doing what had to be done in order to survive the next years of his adult life.

After the conversation, Tom said to me. 

“Rj.. I just want to let you know, I used to be involved in a different life that I am not apart of anymore. I was institutionalized at a young age, I saw and did things I never thought I

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In honor of those who served our country. During times of peace and war. Those who gave the supreme sacrifice, Those still missing and those who came home both whole and broken.

In honor of those still fighting everyday to keep their head above water.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
He was running around .
He cut his eye open the horse,yeah yeah, and it wasn't getting
taken care of where it was atthat time and I went out there
like no experience, no, nothing.
And he just he trusted me somuch to let him get close to
like even do that at a young age, because when they got there
nobody could even get how manyhorses.

(00:21):
You got One right now I'm inconnects with like a sanctuary
thing, so what do you mean whenthey got?

Speaker 2 (00:29):
there they.
You said when they got thereYou're talking about the horses,
yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
They came up on a like on a cattle drive situation
from New Mexico.
Oh, the people, and theybrought you that horse.
Yeah, he was going up throughMontana and he stopped at the
ranch where I was working athelping right uh, because this
had been my plan kind of for along time.
And the guy I was working forconstruction did the equipment

(00:56):
on that guy's property, kind oflike you do the tractors and
stuff like that, he's doing that.
And he was like, hey, this guy.
He said he's buying a couplehorses coming up from new mexico
I know you're trying to do yourranch thing.
He goes, this might be anopportunity if you want to meet
him.
I was like, yeah, set it up.
So I went and met him and hiswife and you know, went and
helped them and ended up gettingConway.

(01:17):
And then Conway, he was allmalnourished and skinny and beat
up and came off.
Then that sucked man Dude, Ihate to see it.
Yeah, he was all sorts offucked up, but now he's your
best friend.
I was like his mom it's funnylike I don't know the actual
protocol for gelding a horse.
But we're on this ranch andhe's shooting him up, you know,

(01:39):
with painkillers and shit, knockhim out.
So he's getting all woozy.
He falls down and he like openshis legs, slices his sack open,
pulls his testicles out.
He was younger than theythought they were, so he only
had one and so he still has onenow, which means he's still.
He's still active, yeah, and uh, yeah, uh.

(02:01):
They took a like a mil what?
And wrapped it around and justlike ripped it out Wow, yeah,
and he was like passed out and Iwas like so like horrified
about what was going on.
I had like a towel and I waslike covering his eyes and I was
like dude, don't watch, it wasfucked up.
This is my first experiencewith this horse.
Like after a week and likeafter a week and we're bonding

(02:22):
and now he's like sliced open,his eyes are twitching and I'm
like oh, dude, and everybodyprobably looked at me like I was
crazy, because I was just likedude, are you all right?
Like just, I don't know if Icould have stood there and
watched it.
It was crazy and I didn't knowlike the healing situation.
But all I do is took like thispowder it looked like silver
spray paint and just go right onthe where it was and then he

(02:42):
closed his leg.
I was like, damn, that's sometense shit, bro.
Yeah, he was up like 15 minuteslater and just like active and
just like trying to, just likehe's a tough fucking dude, he's
a Mustang man.
That was some good shit, youguys.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
I don't know what you guys just did to me, but that's
some bullshit, that's somebullshit.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
Yeah, exactly, I guys just did to me.
But that's some bullshit.
That's some bullshit.
Yeah, exactly, I passed out.
You guys did me dirty damn.
Can't even imagine what thatpoor dude was going through.
Man, yeah, he's.
Uh, he's such a good horsethough, bro.
He's so good with people andkids and animals, the dogs, they
all.
He's like a big dog with them.
They all chill, it's cool.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
That's my horse right there, mama.
She's a trip, bro, mama.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
Hi honey, Alright, welcome to Hanging with Humans
podcast.
This is your host, RJ, andtoday I'm with Tom.
What's up, Tom?

Speaker 2 (03:36):
What's happening, my brother?
How we doing?
Oh, we're good, I'm happy tosee you.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, man, it's good to see you.
Yes, sir, we went through, wegot our questions together and
we talked and caught up and I'mso excited that while I'm here
in Montana on work, I got tocatch up with one of my good
friends, tom, my brother, mybrother, tom's my brother,
brother from another, brotherfrom another.

(03:59):
I've learned a lot from Tom.
Tom's always treated me likeI'm one of his family Him and
his wife and opened his home tome and he's always been a super
solid dude and taught me.
I learned a lot from him.
So thanks for everything.
You are more than welcome.
Thank you, yeah, bro.
So, yeah, I'm excited I get todo this with my boy and I

(04:22):
learned a lot about him.
I'm going to learn even more.
And now you guys get to get tohear this crazy story of triumph
, uh, out of a wrong conviction,uh, which is crazy.
Like to think how easy it couldbe to give up when you're put
in that situation, especially atthat age.
I couldn't even imagine, to behonest, and you stuck it out

(04:45):
like a G and did what you had todo, and Now it's time to live
that, that Second half of yourlife you know, to the max.
Yes, sir.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
So I'm planning to do it.
Yeah, bro, I don't ever give up.
No, sir.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, so you were born in 1970.
Yes, sir, in Flagstaff, arizona.
Yes, sir, october 14th October,so a lot of your life takes
place in Arizona, mostly right?

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yes, up until my early teenage years, and then I
go.
As you know, I moved out of thecity and I moved back.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, so you're back and forth between those places.
This podcast kind of has to doabout mental health and you know
so people they share and openup about things that they've
gone through that reallychallenge them.
Uh, I know of a lot of peopleand you know have been around uh
, how alcoholic parents and howthat can affect us and uh, how

(05:45):
alcoholic parents and how thatcan affect us and uh and and
trying to learn from that.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
Um well, I became one myself, yeah, you know, and I
had to learn how to deal with itbecause I really wasn't that
much.
I'm looking into theinheritance of a father being an
, it gets into the gene system,not saying that everybody will

(06:13):
inherit that, yeah, butunfortunately I did.
It's a thing for sure.
It ain't an excuse, you know.
I know right from wrong and Iknow, but I was a heavy drinker
for a long time, bro, a longtime.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, I mean I guess kind of me too, but not like to
the max.
I just was like I was reallygood at, but I was functioning
yeah yeah, me too.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, I wasn't.
You know, I wasn't.
Sometimes I got violent on it,and that's really when it woke
me up.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yeah, yeah, uh that also is like a stems down from
parents thing it is.
You know, that's a, that's areal thing.
Uh, how do you combat that now,like Like you don't drink now
much, or what does that looklike, because it would be hard
to control that at that time, inthose moments, how do you keep

(06:53):
from even being in that mode?

Speaker 2 (07:09):
focused on what I have right now, on today's, of
what my future is going to be,and I know that's not going to
be a part of it, you know,because I will never succeed as
long as that will continue to bea haunting in my life, so to
speak.
So I rescued things like thislittle mama's right here.
I stay focused on my wife.
I stay focused on my mechanicwork building these bikes.
You know I love to restore oldvehicles and my motorcycles I

(07:30):
like to fix.
I don't care what it is man.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
If it's a weed eater sitting out in the dirt.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
I'll pick it up and I'll bring it in and I'll make
it spark and I'll make it start.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
You remember Sling Blade yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Sling Blade, sling blade, yeah, sling blade.
Right there, that's what I loveto do.
I love it, bro.
I mean, I just just it's mypassion to just restore old
vehicles, you know?
Yeah, I love to grow plants.
Uh, I hate bees?

Speaker 1 (07:54):
why?
Because they stand well, I'mallergic to them.
Oh, they'll end you.
Huh, yes, they will.
Those are like demons, yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
So every time you see what you see, we start swinging
in the air.
Yeah, you're gonna.
You're gonna know what's aboutshadow boxing again.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
Uh, yeah, no bees.
How about honey?
Can you have honey?
Yes, if I can.
Oh, thank heavens.
Yes, that's good.
Yes, um, winslow, arizona.
Uh, six years old man, aterrible moment uh of loss
occurred.
Uh, between it was your sisterand a brother-in-law.

(08:28):
What was the situation?
Well, he became abrother-in-law.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
He became a brother-in-law yeah, and that
was even more tragic for myfamily because the man who was
driving the vehicle killed oneof them and I'm not saying it
was his fault, yeah, he was adriver, but he never apologized
to the family.
And then my sister hid out andand they had a relationship
going and they got married, theyhad daughters, so it really
messed up my mom, the dynamic ofthe family and stuff, you know.

(08:54):
So anyway, yeah, that happenedwhen I was very young.
It was a very tragic moment forme and my family, you know, and
to have to walk into a churchand look at your dead sister in
a casket was something I'llnever forget.
I wish my mom would have nevereven had an open casket, bro, I
was very young.

(09:14):
I had nightmares about thatshit for a long time.
That's gnarly, yeah like.
And she didn't look the same,bro.
You know.
I don't know if you've everseen a dead body or not, but
it's not something I ever wantto witness again.
No man.

Speaker 1 (09:27):
That's not how you want to remember somebody close
to you like that.
No, dude it just it washorrible, it was just so you had
, like shit, suffer from eventhat part of it.
Nightmares, bro.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
For real Horrible nightmares my sister coming out
of the casket and chasing me allover the yard Terrible.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Damn it, that's terrible.
Yeah, that's fucking.
That is terrible, bro.
Yeah, I grew up watching scarymovies and stuff, but I never
got, you know.
I mean I also never had to dealwith that, but it's tough, man.
I mean, there's adultnightmares too, though, you know
there are most certainly.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
There are, most certainly.
I still have nightmares aboutcertain shit, but never nothing
about that again.
But even if I do, I'm oldenough now to know that.
But still, when you're dreaming, bro, what the fuck was that
all about man that has happenedto me?
I know that ain't my sister.
That's crazy.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
So that kind of like shaped the next chapter of your
life and, like you, you'vealways been.
Let's talk about how you gotinto the cars first.
Like who was it that you metthat got you into what you love
doing so much now that you're sogood at?

Speaker 2 (10:49):
When my mom moved us to Texas after all that tragedy
and you know, she moved me, mybrother and my family to Texas
and we had some family therethat I didn't even know, never
met Put us in school, wrote usin and I was just starting
seventh grade and I hated school.
I hated it with a passion Well,I don't know, never could get

(11:11):
into it.
I just said this wasn't mything, you know.
And every day I would go in, mymom would drop us off in front
of the school, I'd walk in thefront door and right out the
back and I used to go hide inthis old man's junkyard.
I'd just in the front door andright out the back and I used to
go hide in this old man'sjunkyard.
I'd just jump his fence andhide in his junkyard and I'd
just stay there until my momwent to work at 10 o'clock in
the morning at a bar and thenI'd go home.

(11:32):
Really, yeah.
Well, one day there was two bigRottweilers in this junkyard
and they had me henned up inthis car and I couldn't go
anywhere.
Bro, they wouldn't leave.
Yeah, so this old man thatowned it came walking back there
and he was growing some potplants and shit back there at
the time, bro, and my dumb asshad taken some a little bit and

(11:53):
took a home.
You know what I mean?
Dumb shit.
I was only 12 years old, bro.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So he looks at me and he saysall right, young cat, what are
you doing in my junkyard?
You've been in here every dayand you're stealing my weed on
my weed plant.
He said that's why these dogsare out here now, going hard.

(12:13):
Yeah, and they're not going tolet you go until you tell me
truth.
Yeah, he said you're obviouslyditching school and coming to my
yard, my property.
I said yes, sir.
He said well, I can kind ofrelate to that.
He said, said I know you mean alot.
So he said well, I'm going totell you this You're going to
work for the things that you'vebeen doing here for the last six

(12:34):
months, coming in my junkyard.
You're going to pay your debtoff to me, he said, and you're
going to keep it between me andyou, right?
I said, yes, sir.
He said I'm going gonna bringyou over here.
Every day you go to school andeven on the weekends you're
gonna come here.
I suggested, and I just that'swhat I started doing and he just
brought me in there and hestarted teaching me the ropes
about everything and I'm talkingabout from the ground level up,

(12:56):
on any vehicle, motorcycle,boats, diesel engines, gasoline
engines.
And let me pick out any car onthat junkyard, after working for
him for six months, and told mego out there and pick it out
and you're going to build it,I'm going to pay for everything.
You need, give you everythingout of the parts out of this
junkyard, whatever motor,whatever.

(13:17):
He said well, you're going tobuild it, you're going to learn.
He said there's all the books,all the mechanic books, right up
there.
Get on it.
They said then you'll work forme.
Whatever I need done, you'll doit.
I did it for a year before I gotcaught from my mom and and she
sold my badass car, bro, andthis is a camaro, right, it's
1967 ss, damn rock crusher.

(13:40):
Muncie, four speed, 396, bigblock, chevro 850, double pumper
.
Wow, it wasn't right.
Wheelies down the street, bro,just the machine, 1,300
horsepower.
That's crazy.
You start it up, bro, it'drumble the ground, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
It was just sick.

(14:00):
That sounds so fucking tight.
It's probably, bro, and that'swhat I stayed into for, when you
know, for years after that and,um, keep in mind, I'm still a
minor at this time and I hadalready driven all over the
place well, I don't even have alicense.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Yeah, nothing been driving, yeah you know um, so
you stay in cars, you go toschool for it.
Yeah, you got certified forchassis.

Speaker 2 (14:28):
Precision powertrain and chassis.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Basically everything, yes, sir.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
And then from then, you become a lead mechanic at
Lead auto technician at FordAmes Ford in Winslow, arizona,
at Ford, at 20 years old 20years old, big dog at the time,
making $65 an hour.
What At that time?
That's insane.
Yeah, my paychecks every weekwere like $2,700 a week.
Five days Wow, bro, every week.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
You were doing it.
Yeah, is diesel that pays themost, or what Diesel?

Speaker 2 (15:03):
does pay the most.
It does, you know, but a lot ofdiesel work.
I just really wasn't into thatdiesel, you know why?
I don't know why.
Why I hate the way they sound.
Really, they sound like rodsare knocking in the motor and
all that.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
They're smoking shit all thetime.
I just didn't like it, brother,which ones did you like?
The Fords, the Power Strips?

(15:24):
I'm a Chevrolet fan, a Chevy,yeah, but I can work on any, but
I'm definitely a hardcoreChevrolet.
Small block 350s.

Speaker 1 (15:29):
A Duramax.
Do you like a Duramax?

Speaker 2 (15:33):
Sure, but that's a diesel.
Yeah, I don't care.
You don't like the way theysound.
Yeah, now you know I wouldn'tmind if I had something I had to
haul all over the place orwhatever.
That's what you need to have,right, but to just get out there
and drive down the road everyday, a vehicle and robs and shit

(15:53):
sound like it's not to dotomorrow.

Speaker 1 (15:55):
It's just not my thing there's probably a big
difference in the max, likedually gas versus diesel.
Do you think it's a big, bigdifference in towing?

Speaker 2 (16:06):
Oh, absolutely, yeah, it's the horsepower brother.
Diesel engines put out a massamount of torque, mm-hmm, and
their gear ratios are builtDon't do that Like more gears
right and lower, yes, mm-hmm.
So it changes the gear ratio.
Like my Chevy Tahoe, forexample, even though it will

(16:26):
pull a trailer, it ain't goingto pull a big rig trailer that's
going down the freeway likethem big semis pull.
You know what I mean Becausethey're gear racers.
They got 16 gears in them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So they're built to do that.
So diesels are great for that,you know.
Yeah, they for that, you knowbuy yeah, they're awesome way

(16:47):
better than the gasoline engine.
Yeah, you never really seetowing situations that aren't
diesel.
No, you don't.
You know, if you're pullingsomething heavy, you really
would like to have a dieselengine, a truck, to pull us with
.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
Uh, there's a generation of dodge diesels and
it's like this 12 volt or 12valve um.
It might be more 16 valve.
It's that third gen, I think itis.
I think it's 24 valve, 24 valveum.
What makes that thing so like,sought after, like?
Is it just a good qualitydiesel engine?

Speaker 2 (17:16):
because I've seen people really it is, and the
reason why it is becausetechnology has come so far in
everything but I'm talking abouteverything in this world and
they have come up with ways tomake diesel engines even more
fuel efficient, more powerfuland more of an everyday driver

(17:37):
for a lot of people.
You know what I mean, so a lotof people are going into them
like that.
Oh, okay, that makes perfectsense, it does going into them
like that.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
Oh okay, that makes perfect sense, it does, and uh,
they're uh.
Are they like not hard to workon as well, or something?
There's got to be some otherfactors that make that a very uh
, because I've never seen moreof a generation of a truck
that's like you see them fullyrestored and they're like pretty
good amount of years.
You know, still, right, you seea lot of them, um, but enough
about those dodgers well, theseare diesel engines, you know.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
It's not that they're hard to work on.
The parts are very expensive,you know.
Yeah, and if you don't know, ifyou don't have that skill level
to work on one like it ain'tthat hard to work on a regular
gasoline engine.
There's a lot more that comesto it with diesel engines man,
combustion and stuff.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
Sleeves and the block .
You know it don't even.
It don't have spark plugs.
It got glow plugs in there andit's just a whole lot of
different stuff, different shityou gotta have.
You know you have to haveexhaust fluids and all this
stuff you got to put in.
Nowadays they got red dye fuelthat is not even legal to drive
down the street.

(18:49):
You know you got to buy red.
What's that blue stuff?
Oh, def, yeah, that's DEF, yeah, def, that's exhaust fluid.
So they throw that in there,these big companies, just to
make money bro.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Right, and it works.
They didn't have them a bunchof years ago.
You don't need them, sure didnot.
Yeah, you're so crazy, butthat's um consumerism, like just
people wanting the more, thenewest that's how people make
money.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
I guess yeah, if the people will do it.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
They're gonna do it to make a buck.
They damn sure are.
So for dealership, you're doingthat, you're killing it, and
then you get into a situationthat takes you away from that.
That is one of the craziestsituations I think a person can
even think about facing at thatage.

(19:44):
What you were facing, and thenhow you got hosed too.
On top of everything, theyweren't looking out for your
best interests.
So by far, um, let's explainwhat happened and then how, from
your experience with having tojoin, you know, basically,
prison, get into a gang and theybut actually within that gang,

(20:09):
they helped you get yourself toget out right, absolutely.
So, yeah, let's talk a littlebit about that whole situation.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
Well, the night when I got arrested, it was just
something that happened, man, Iwas gone for deer, had a deer
tag.
You know, my brothers had deertags.
I got off of work that Fridayevening at 5.
Went and picked up a friend ofmine who was going to go out to
the forest with me, borrowed a.30-06 rifle from his dad.
My brother had our only othergun out there in the forest
already and so I picked him up,got the rifle from his dad.

(20:40):
It had hit.
I think he had two shells andit was 30, I said so obviously,
you know, I wanted to have moreto go hunting with
right.
And so we're going to go toWalmart from his house, dude,
and drive three, four blocks togo to Walmart and the two dudes
are standing on the corner rightthere and my pastor said don't.
The pastor sees my car and I'mlike what the fuck is going on

(21:04):
here?
I knew who the two dudes were,I just didn't associate but they
knew me.
So I stopped in the middle ofthe road.
Dude has a rottweiler, a chain,a leash, unclips it, wraps it
around his hand, walks around infront of my to the pastor's
side and busts the dude right inthe face with his chain wrapped

(21:28):
around his hand and then walksoff back towards these
low-income housing projectapartments.
There's another dude standingthere talking to me that I know
he's like man, just go home.
So in that process, while I'mtalking to this dude through my
driver's window and telling thepastor that's with me dude, you
got to handle that shit, don'tlet somebody punch you in the
face like that.
I don't even know what's goingon between them.
So I said fuck it, I'll handlethis shit.

(21:51):
So I said hey, dude, why don'tyou come and do that shit to me?
You know?
So they go, they walk aroundthe back of this apartment.
So at that time my pastor thegun was sitting right between us
, bro, he just pulls it up,fires it right in front of my
face, goes through a window ofthe apartment and straight out
the roof Doesn't hit anybody,though Thankfully, the only

(22:11):
damage to the whole thing was a$67 broken window.
That's it.
And they tried to hit youwith.
And at that point I drove himback to his house and he was
cleaning himself up.
His mom and dad are freakingout, you know they're gonna take
him to the hospital.
The house gets surrounded withcops wrong and they put both of

(22:32):
us at gunpoint and took us tojail and started asking all kind
of dumb ass questions.
And uh, I thought I was goingto go to jail for a dui bro
Because I had been drinking andsitting in a car and everything.
He said, no, no, you got afireworks problem with that,
just protect it.
I said what are you talkingabout?

(22:52):
He said you got two charges ofpremeditated first degree murder
, two charges of premeditated,aggravated assault with a deadly
weapon and two counts ofendangerment premeditated.
He said you got six majorfelonies.
I said what I said don'tfucking do anything.

(23:14):
What you talking about?
Man?
And that's what they rodewith.
Bro and I was in the countyjail for a year long story.
To break it down a little bit,the dude who pulled the trigger
on the gun took a plea bargain.
He got a six-year sentence.
He got out in three years.
I took my case to trial becauseI wasn't guilty of nothing and

(23:35):
I lost and they gave me a20-and-a-half-year prison
sentence and my life wascompletely fucking destroyed,
taken away from me.
At that time I got to prisonkeeping my maximum custody
prison.
Well, killers, I had justturned 21 years old.
I'm young.
I don't know nothing aboutprison.

(23:57):
I don't know nothing about allthat shit.
Yeah, and on a level four yardit was you very racial shit.
I'm talking about very racial.
Well, dangerous situation I'min.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
Riots and just violence.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
You know, I couldn't even sleep and they put me in a
cell with another dude, anotherwhite dude, whites with whites,
blacks with blacks, mexicanswith Mexicans, and that's the
way.
That's how it was.
Do whites with whites, blackswith blacks, mexicans with
Mexicans?
And that's the way.
That's how it was.
But the prison guards would tryto put, you know, new people
coming in and try and mix theraces up.

(24:36):
So just like start violence,just to kick it off or just to,
just to try and show thatthey're in control, which they
clearly are not.
And that happened to me thefirst night when I got to go
into this pod to go into a cell,they threw me in with a Mexican
from Mexico Not AmericanMexican, whatever you want to

(24:58):
call it.
I didn't know anybody, I didn'thave any ideas the first night
there.
Well, next morning I wake upsome serious-ass white boys, big
dudes, going, don't go back inthat cell.
I said okay, went to breakfast,came back and refused to lock
down.
You know, the guards werecoming in.
They're telling me lock down,lock down.

(25:18):
And I refused to lock down andthey said you're going in that
cell.
I said no, I'm not.
No, I'm not.
Grabbed a hold of one of thetables out in the middle of the
pod, took nine officers to ripme off this table and drag me to
the hole and gassed me, macedme all kinds of bad shit.
I was in the hole for 90 daysbefore I got back, released to

(25:43):
the yard and they put me rightin with a white dude and I never
had another issue with thatagain.
But in the meantime, when I gotout, you ever heard what they
call a heart check when they putsomebody in prison you ever
heard.
You know your people are goingto give you a heart check to see
if you got any heart in you,got some heart in you?
Ah, gotcha, gotcha.
So I got one of them and Iwrapped up five tuna fish cans

(26:06):
and like six sodas in a laundrybag and three dudes.
So somebody came and told melook, they're gonna do a heart
check on you, brother.
Soon as the cell doors openedhe said they're gonna heart
check it.
So just do what you gotta do.
I was scared, scared to death.
I was scared to death.
And when that first dude openedthat cell door he got a mouth
full of cans exploded in hisface.

(26:28):
well, and I just didn't stop andall three of them dudes, got
their asses handed to him out offear for my own life and they
took me to the hole again andwhen I got out of the hole after
that I never had another issuewith nobody on the yard.
The ab members that run run theyard came to me and they took

(26:49):
me under their wings, brotherSmooth sailing for the next six
and a half years on that yard.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
But damn that, like experience, to like knowing.
There's like a clock tickingdown and you know what's coming
and you know there's more thanone.
Yeah, and what you're going tohave to do, man.

Speaker 2 (27:12):
I was so afraid, bro, I can't even tell you how much
fear I had in me, and that'swhat made me get through that
the fear of letting them hurt meor me hurt them, yeah, which I
didn't even want to do.
I had to do it, bro, forsurvival reasons, because I was
going even want to do.
I had to do it, bro, forsurvival reasons, because I was
going to be in prison for a longtime, you know and I'm not

(27:33):
trying to be in prison in a holewhere you're in a protective
custody or whatever I want to beable to leave my cell and go
work and go run the backyard andall that shit.
And that's what I did, bro, andI earned their respect, and I
never had another issue well,ever.
That's how you earned, though,and still, to this day, I got
their respect.
Well, I mean, there were acouple of them.

(27:54):
They're good people, man, andthey looked out for me.
So, after that traumaticexperience yeah, that shaped
some things, you know, I got ajob, I worked in the kitchen for
a while and, and, uh, used topeel milk and shit out.
You go take it to the table.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
You know the fellas they like to have extra milk.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
They give you one little old carton of milk.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, yeah, I'm in the porterthat do all the table.
But I could go in the back ofthe kitchen and the 55-gallon
trash can.
I'd just throw a whole bunch ofmilks in the bottom and filled
up with ice.
Yeah, they never seen it, bro,never even knew.
I didn't give a shit if theydid.
At that point, rj, my life tome was over.
They stripped me, that's true,and I had an anger problem for a

(28:37):
long time in them years dealingwith that shit.
It was what that court systemdid to me.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah, they're supposed to be in best interest
and and, as a human being islike from a human rights
standpoint.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
you know I got totally screwed over in the
judicial system.
Straight up, bro.
I did nothing wrong, I didn'ttouch nobody.
I went through the judicialprocess, I took it to trial and
they failed in so many areas ofthat, bro, and it took my my
life away from me.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
It's crazy.
I feel like if it wasn't fortechnology now more because
there's like the ability to likerecord things and things are,
you know, always kind of beingwatched in some way that would
have never happened to me.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
No, yeah, you know, it just never would have man.
And then, on top of that, afterI was in prison, that same
courthouse, after a long time,they did a mock trial on me.
You know what that is?

Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
So they had these college or high school students
come into that same courtroomand the same cops and everything
.
They come in there and theyhave this play like it's a
fucking joke.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
That's crazy.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
And one of the fucking detectives is doing all
the questioning.
He's acting like me and they'rehandcuffed and the judge is all
smiling and shit.
Well, we got the verdict andthese high school kids found me
guilty.
Dude, it was fucking pissed meoff, so fucking bad.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
Damn that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
They can just take somebody's life that just got
screwed over and have thisbullshit ass mock trial on them
and like it's a fucking joke,man.
And not only did they ruin mylife, they ruined the life of my
youngest son, who was just ababy at the time, of my wife, my
older son, my mom you know myfamily, bro a lot of shit got

(30:25):
torn apart, everything was juststripped away from me in a
matter of three fucking minutesof me doing nothing to nobody.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
I'm glad that from the beginning you knew that you
weren't going to stay in hereforever.
I did, bro.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
You had to fight to get it.
Let me tell you so, when I gotto prison, brother, and after
all the other shit happened, Iknew that I was going to get out
of prison.
And one of the Aryan brotherswas a lawyer.
He got in a bar fight and theygave him life in prison, right
just for protecting his wife ina bar.
What he was?

(31:03):
A martial artist, artist, yeah.
And he killed this dude who cameonto his wife and actually
slapped his wife and he killedthe dude with his hands.
So they used his hands asdeadly weapons and they gave him
life in prison and he went intothe law library every day and
he'd already been in there like15 years.

(31:24):
Well, when I met him and hebrought me in there and he told
me Tom, ain't nobody going toget you out of this shit but you
, he said you're obviously notrich.
You can't hire no high-poweredattorney.
He said you're going to come inhere, I'm going to show you the
ropes, the law books,everything else, and you're
going to get yourself and you'regoing to get your case
overturned.
Seven years it took me to getit.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
That's so crazy, dude .

Speaker 2 (31:47):
Actually almost eight years to go through the legal
system.
I mean as learning, bro.
Yeah, the law books, you knowhow difficult, that's fucking
hard.
And filing motions with theNinth Circuit Court of Appeal
out of Arizona, bro, and havingreturned to me, and it takes
months and months for that shitto go through.
You know, yeah, like everysingle thing, right, yeah, you

(32:10):
know, yeah, like every singlething, right, yeah, right.
You have to know the uh rulesof criminal procedure out of the
.
You know you have to know a lotof shit.
Well, you have to know thestatute, the fucking, all the
shit you still, you still gotsome of that stuff.
I got all of it, yeah, yeahthat's how I was able to do a
lot of this shit for this, youknow, as my own pro say,
representing myself pro bono.
But you know, yeah, so theremay be what they taught me a lot

(32:31):
.
Uh, they made me go to school.
I didn't even have a ged.
I mean a test with a plumb.
Yeah, I got my ged in prison.
I worked for 50 cents an hour,but that's the top pay you get
in prison.
That's the top pay.
Yeah, damn, that's so mypaycheck from going from almost
$3,000 a week on the streetsgoing to prison and waiting in

(32:54):
the county jail to get sent tothe reception center to send you
to whatever yard that theprison is in the state you're
going to.
I started on a rock crew at 10cents an hour.
Rock crew at 10 cents an houryeah 4 o'clock in the morning,
come and get your ass up and yougo out in the middle of the
fucking desert.
Yeah, the middle of nowhere,and you would break up rocks,

(33:15):
bro, damn Flagstone and haul itback to the prison and make
sidewalks and walkways, and allthis, yeah, for 10 cents an hour
Insane.

Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, no, bro.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
That's like such a crazy broken system.
So the kitchen was the place tobe, bro, to make the most money
.
You know what I mean.
You could eat and you couldmake 50 cents an hour, and even
making 50 cents an hour at 90hours, every two weeks, bro,
working in the kitchen, what doyou think my paycheck was?
That?
They paid me $28, bro, $28.
Every two weeks.
That's so crazy, that's socrazy, that's crazy.

(33:49):
What did?

Speaker 1 (33:50):
you do with your $28?
You have a commissary,commissary, yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
Buy your coffee, cigarettes, smoke, whatever you
know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (33:56):
Anybody put stuff on your books besides you and your
wife Did anybody.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah, I had very little limited family support,
with money being sent to me, bro, and I'm talking about very
little.
So I pretty much and I thankGod that they were even able to
send me 20 bucks every couple ofmonths or something you know
what I mean and I even got that.
It was a blessing, but it wasmuch appreciated, don't get me

(34:22):
wrong.
Yeah, yeah, but I worked inthere and then I would do my
hustles you know what I meanInside the prison Play handball
for $100 a game, play chess for$100 a game, hustling, and, yeah
, sometimes I didn't win.
You know what I mean.
I'd have to go to the fellas.
Hey man, it might be an issue.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
He's so hot Handball fellas.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
Goddamn it, Tom.
Hey, this dude and I you knowhis name was Danny Harden.
Bro yeah, Six foot five, 265pounds of solid fucking steel.
Bro yeah, Just jacked 32 inchfucking arms tattooed down just
Monster.
But cool as fuck bro.
Yeah, Just a cool dude, butdeadly, with his hands Deadly.
Fe, but cool as fuck bro yeah,Just a cool dude, but deadly,

(35:08):
with his hands Deadly.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
Feet.
That was the lawyer guy, or theguy who, yeah, who killed the
dude with his hands and anexpert handball.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
He has hands as big as this bag right here.
Bro, I swear to God, really, hehit that handball so hard.
Man, that's crazy, nobody couldbeat homeboy.
Me and him played partnerstogether, yeah oh, and just
crushed everybody.
Oh man, people hated us back.
They seen us coming to thecourt when it was time for us to
go on.
They didn't want us, theydidn't want that smoke.

(35:37):
Nobody else could ever playbecause we ran the court against
everybody.
He played the front, I playedthe back.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
That's what I could say.
I had some homies like thatwith beer pong when we showed up
.
They knew it was business andwe were going to be there for a
while.

Speaker 2 (35:53):
So we had three hours in the gym, a couple hours in
the gym to play for that andthen the rest of the time we'd
play chess wherever we could,you know, in the pods, when they
had to let you out for an hour,they're going to go and do a
$100 game, bro, $100 game.
That's crazy Touchy move.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
Touchy move.
How important do you thinkexercising your brain while
you're in?
There was for you.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
So the main thing that I was doing was from, he
told me.
He said look, you got it.
He said this is not going to beeasy task for you to do,
understand, he said and you'regoing to go to school and get
your GED.
He said that's the mostimportant thing that you're
going to do.
Yeah, and there is no ifs andbuts about it.
That's what you're going to do,that's what's going to happen.
You're going to continue to itevery morning and you know all

(36:44):
this other shit.
It comes after that and it keptme focused.
Bro, you're gonna have aroutine.
He said you're gonna work outwith me.
That's when they had weights onthere.
They just started, you know,but they took all that shit away
they took the law, libraries,they took the weight.
They've taken everything fromeverything.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
Yeah, yeah, there needs to be a lot of reform
going down in a lot of theseplaces.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
So they took all that bro.
They changed it now to 85percent of your sentence under
the new In Arizona.
I don't know about anywhereelse.
That's the only time I've everdone prison was in Arizona.
So it's fucked up bro.
Fucked up system.
Huh it is.
It's horrible.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
What was it like knowing that it's going to come
to an end and you knew the exactdate and you were getting close
.
What was it like going throughyour mind?
What were the feelings there atthat time?

Speaker 2 (37:32):
At that time, rj, you know I was nervous, bro.
Yeah, I was nervous because youknow you got to keep in mind
that I'm pretty much— I didn'twant to consider myself to be
institutionalized.
You know what I mean.
But to go through many, manyyears of you have to sit with
your own people every day, youdon't get nothing, you don't
talk, you don't play, you don'tassociate with any other race

(37:54):
bro Period, if you do, you'regetting your ass handed to you.
You know, and I've seen a lotof dudes take helicopter rides
or even dive.
See that bug.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
I whacked him too.
I know those bees we watch outfor them bees.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yeah, I'll die if I get bitten.
I don't want that, anyway.
So years went by, seven years,I won my appeal.
It got remanded.
They reduced my sentence to thesuper mitigated sentence, yeah,
and I got out wrong.
Hell, yeah, went on parole,went, roll, went and I've never
looked back and uh, you know,but I still continued to have
all shit.

(38:30):
All that happened.
Well, you know, that's crazy,it is crazy, but I don't never
give up, brother, and I adjustedon the street.
Very well, yeah, I got a joband, uh, because I checked, you
know, I knew before I got outand listen, I talked to myself.
I had to set my mind frame backto being here On the streets,

(38:54):
bro, and having communicationtalks with another racial,
whatever.
You know, you're not in prisonanymore.
There ain't no racial shit andI was never racist at all.
anyway, that's just what it was.
So it was something I had toget adjusted to again, bro.
Yeah, so when I go into arestaurant or something with my
family or something, bro, I'llsit down.

(39:14):
I'm like you know, I don't knowif I should be yeah, because
it's like it's programmed inhere.
And then it got funny.
After that, because you know,I've talked to my own people.
I said, yeah, are you going toeat that?
I tell the waitress hey, I needa spork.
I need a spork, oh my goodness,and a cup.
That's hilarious.
But it was cool, man.

(39:35):
I adjusted well, I didn't haveno problems, completed my parole
with no problems at all.
Yeah, it's not that easy foreveryone too.
Huh, a lot of people get rightthumb back in prison.

(39:55):
Before they finally pull allright back, they go just a
rotating revolving door.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
Well, for a lot of people.
There were the what do you callit?
The word for the reciprocatingrate, or the yeah, uh, like
going back in late, yeah, Ican't remember, but yeah, yeah,
um, and it's not good.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
It's not good, no at all, not good, no at all.
It's crazy.
And the bad thing about it forme is I have this on my record
for the rest of my life, bro,yeah.
And it's hard for me to go to acompany.
You know, a big-time company,oh man.
And they see what my car youknow?
Yeah, they ain't hiring me, bro, yeah.
But when I have the interview,before all that check of the

(40:28):
past, and all that shit comes up.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
They want to hire me immediately.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
And then that comes up, the background check.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
The background check bro and it fries me every time.
Yeah, it's fucked up, but I meanit's.
People are kind of likegatekeepers in a way, like maybe
they don't even want to be, butthey get to be the person that
says, yes, this could be yournew life, I know it could help
you a lot.
So if that person has sorts offeelings towards a person that's

(41:00):
had a past or whatever, butthey don't even know the story,
you know, because there's allthese crazy charges that don't
even relate to, like whatactually happened exactly, but
they see it was what on.
People don't even know thestory.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
You know, because there's all these crazy charges
that don't even relate to likewhat actually happened exactly,
but they see it was what on?
People don't even know me, theydon't know what happened.
They don't know nothing.
That goes for a lot of peopleit is, but there are some
employers nowadays, thank god.
They will give a man a chanceyou know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (41:20):
yeah, a lot of private owned businesses or
people.
I was working in easternMontana and doing construction
and the dude that I was workingfor he was in prison for a
minute did a bunch of time, cameout and got right to it, bro,
and what he built his businessit's crazy by himself.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
That's exactly what I was doing right here, brother.
I was building a business and Iwas coming along until I got
shafted and sent back, wearrested here and thrown back in
jail, extradited back toarizona.
For shit.
I already did time for yeah,that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (41:59):
Um, how much has your , your lady, played a part in
your success and keeping you onthe right track and how the time
you know, explain that, likebecause it was 12 years old when
you guys met and everything.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Yeah man, you know, going back to that, this woman
in the flag stand.
I was 12 years old, she was 13,and she raped me.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
Oh man, I'm just kidding bro, that's cool.
Well, I'll ask her and see whatshe says.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yeah, Well, she lived in the neighborhood.
We lived out in the woods andshit man, when we first moved to
that neighborhood, every girlin them neighborhood, that whole
area wanted me and my olderbrother.
Yeah, I mean all of them.
I met her at a slumber partythey were having at our

(42:53):
neighbor's house.
There was two sisters and theyhad a brother.
That's the only reason why wewere over there and I met my
wife, wendy, and I took hervirginity and she also took mine
.
Nice, that was many, many yearsago.
Yeah, and we got separated whenI moved to texas and all that
story a bunch of years and, uh,I think it was.
And then 20, 20 years went by,yeah, and she found me in prison

(43:19):
.
A letter came across her desk.
She was the head uh officer forchild support enforcement out
of Flagstaff.
It just happened.
A letter came across her deskwith my name on it and she said
she couldn't believe it.
She looked me up and found Iwas in prison and even her was
skeptical to write me becauseshe found I was in prison for
her.
Yeah, but she did.
She sent me the letter and Iexplained it to her.

(43:40):
She went to that, read thewhole transcript and she could
not believe what she read.
Really, yes, and we've beentogether ever since.
That's crazy.
We got married.
Yeah, we've been together eversince.
I love her.
She's been huge.
She stuck with me for seven anda half.
The rest of the time I was inPridham Wrote me.
You know what I mean.
She sent me money every now andthen.
Yeah, she's a soldier bro,straight up.

(44:04):
That's cool, though.
I love her with all my heart.
Man, she's my soulmate, is whatshe is.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
Straight up man.
I love that.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
That's so beautiful.
She kept me from a lot of badstuff.
I bet.

Speaker 1 (44:18):
yeah, that's why I brought it up.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
Because I feel like things could be different If you
don't have nothing to lookforward to when you're in prison
, you don't have somebodywriting you, you don't have no
family, you don't have no, youknow, I don't know how to put it
If you don't have no, none ofthat out there, what would give
a man even any thinking aboutthinking to get out to go to

(44:42):
what?
Say, if you don't have a hometo go to, yeah, they got to send
you to this halfway house thatthey have, you know't have a
home to go to.
Yeah, they gotta send you thishalfway house as they have, you
know, and a lot.
That's why the door rotatesaround because they don't have
no help out there, bro, theyhave no family, no wife, no,
nothing, and they go right backto prison again.
And I had this, and that's whatkept my mind focused on getting

(45:03):
out and doing having a life withmy family again, wrong, even
though it's not with my one ofmy most youngest son, yeah, but
I got my wife, my mom, might youknow I'm still, my family is,
yeah, very big part of my life.
My brother right here.
You know I never met you if Iwouldn't us.
I'm a hard worker man, as youknow, I know, and that's why I

(45:25):
mean you're able to sit here andtalk today, brother, because
I'll never give up, rj, I knowand I'll never give up and I'll
always try to work and makemoney, you know, but when I
broke my back it really put mebehind on some stuff, man
Rescuing old fat toads like you.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
She keeps everything in order, she does, does.
She's a good girl, she's a goodgirl, she is man.
Yeah bro, I was so happy thatyou know.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
I don't mean to jump around on the story but man
there's so much stuff, dude, Iknow, when you mentioned the,
you know it's like going into adrug counseling center.
You know what I mean.
People need to hear thetransition process right Of what
can happen if you choose to goback to a different route.
You can either go the right wayor the wrong way, and I want us

(46:15):
down the right path, bro, youknow what I mean Because you
know, don't do robbery orwhatever people may do to make
money.
It's not my thing, bro.
I will always work for my moneyand I will always, you know,
yeah, and I will always, youknow, do the best I can to take
care of my family and anybodythat's close to me.
Man, I feel you on that, bro.
Yeah, so that's, you know, youhave to go through the process.

(46:35):
When I went through all kind ofdrug counseling, I got
certificates, bro, fromcompleting drug and alcohol, uh,
re-entry program, all thatstuff.
Man, you know, always, and it'sit's you have to do the leg
work.
Man, I learned how to type.
Can you believe that?
From Mavis Beacon, bro, inprison, I remember Mavis Beacon
and it used to piss me off thatyou have to pass, go to certain

(46:56):
stages, to pass certain miles.

Speaker 1 (46:58):
It was like a game kind of dude.
It was you do like a letter andthen, like a, b would fly on
the sleeve.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
So you had to learn you had to put or play piano,
Place your hands on the keyboardand then you had to learn each
word letter and I was gettingpretty good, but I could never
get past 31 words a minute, broBro.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
I said okay, so my business, a lot of it revolves
around using a computer and thepodcast also also because you
edit in videography andeverything.
It still also revolves aroundthe computer.
But when I was super young, myneighbor because my parents were
divorced I live with my dadalone but he was gone working

(47:40):
off in the bay area forever.
So I would go to my neighborand my neighbor was a super nerd
.
There would be like grown-assmen having a LAN party.
Everyone would bring their bigcomputers in one room and they'd
play video games.
Before like Wi-Fi was a thingand I grew up around that,
building computers, and now Ihelp people like with AI and how

(48:02):
it could help their businessand like shit like that.
So my first job ever was at acall center as a relay operator
where deaf, blind people wouldcall and talk to me and I would
type because I type so fast thatthey could talk and I could
right like the whole time.
That's great.
Yeah, when I was like sobecause I've been in a computer

(48:25):
so young, that Motion and thatlike it's a thing, it's so
natural, it's crazy.
But even the dumbass keyboardthat's like split in half and
it's all like I hate it, but Ican still like this.
I can do like this.
Like it's crazy, you don't haveto look at, don't have to look
at.
One time I gotta sit and do itfor like Five minutes to

(48:46):
remember the flow, because itbecomes this like Thing where
you don't even need youreyeballs.
It's just like like this motionthat you just continuously
doing you know, you know how Irelate to that.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
You could tell me go get a 916 wrench out of that box
right there, tom.
Oh, I walk right on.
I don't even have to look atthe yard, you know, I already
know what it is, so I knowexactly what the size just by
looking at it.
Yeah, that's crazy.
You put me on a keyboard.
You ain't getting nothing donefor a long time.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
It's gonna take a minute, but you're super good at
doing the wrench thing.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
So like yeah, I know color code wiring systems on
these bikes, these vehicles.
All you know the wiringschematic.
A lot of that is programmedinto my head yeah, when we were
working over there.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
You're doing work on those damn forklifts all the
time.
Yeah, yeah, the hydraulicshydraulics all the time yeah,
and that's not easy to do.
No, no, it's not.
I learned how to do hellawelding you talking about well,
yeah, pretty much, yeah, we'regonna see if you've still been
welding.
No, but I'm going to be becauseof the ranch.
Bro, I've got to be puttingshit.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
Well, you know, I'll give you another test one of
these days.
Maybe a welding test it was funthough, isn't it though?
Hey, welding's fun, bro,welding's fun, but if you don't
wear a Wear, a mask, you'll burnyour eyeballs out.
You ain't gonna like that.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
My dad used to weld underneath cars with no mask.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Sometimes you had to because you ain't got no room
for the mask.
That's true, you know, and Ihad to do that to me before I've
had burn holes all over myshirt, my arm blisters and shit
on.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
He had like a red eye and it would be watering
nonstop for like three weeks.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
It was so fucked, irritated, but sometimes that's
what it takes to get the jobdone.
Yeah, that's true facts, broI'll get that over there.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
So, like I watched my bro, so my dad, I watched him
like go to prison, loseeverything like he.
Literally he lost everything,right I?
I came home from school and myhouse was empty and my dad was
gone.
Wow, that's fucked up.
Like that's a tremendous.
How old were you?
17, 16, 17?
What'd you do?

(50:54):
I went to go live with my momand then basically I've been on
my own basically since sincethen I've been on my own pretty
much since I was 12 years old sothis is what I was going to say
, that it really I thought aboutit.
When you know because you andyour lady that she was where she

(51:15):
was, in the position she was,but it didn't matter that, like
you're a prison inmate, you knowit's like you don't have.
What a lot of people look foris like stability, or think of
is as stability, like to giveyou that love, bro.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
Straight, love, bro, and commitment to me.
And let me tell you somethingHer family has completely
disowned her because of me.
Damn, they want nothing to dowith it, because they just read
the paperwork that they see onme and think I'm just a fucking
piece of shit, bro.
And this woman has not workedone time since I've been out of

(51:53):
prison, bro, not paid a dime fornothing.
And I don't care, I take careof her.
Yeah, man, you know.
Yeah, because that's my job andI promise I will take care of
you.
I'll do whatever I have to do.
Look what the stuff I'veaccomplished.
I've owned two vehicles, oneright there and the other one I

(52:14):
sold, and this is all.
I haven't been out of prisonbut three, four and a half years
, bro, yeah, that's crazy.
You know that's a long time todo and just to come out and I've
worked and I've got all this.
You've seen that way I got.
I still got that towel.
That idiot we worked withdidn't know how to take care of
it.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
And it still runs great.
All this stuff, dude.

Speaker 1 (52:38):
Yeah, there's a bunch of shit like just chilling.

Speaker 2 (52:41):
I mean I got four of the four of us sitting out here.
The back was buried down in theback, was sitting out here in
the back with bear down in theback.
Yeah, that thing was great.
I plow with it, I dragged it, Ido everything with that thing.
I put the winch on there andlights and yeah, it runs great
sitting right there I love it.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
Yeah, no, there's.
You've done a lot since Ipopped in here a couple times.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
When you get in here that big old tractor over there
on that dump truck sitting rightover.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
I rebuilt that for my neighbor yeah, you can build,
rebuild anything, I know that.
But yeah, bro, that's.
I feel like I just love hearingthat dynamic, that, even
because it's nobody'srelationship but yours and hers,
and like, if you're going todisown somebody for, like, who
you love, that's not goodparenting or it's not like a

(53:24):
nice thing to do.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
I mean, we love each other so much.
Her birthday was yesterday.
I did not have a dime to myname to do anything for her and
it really broke me down as a manand a husband.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, but you know what?
She don't care about that.
She don't care, she's don'tworry about that.
So I said, no, I do worry aboutit.
So I used to have an aircompressor sitting right there.
I went and pound it so I couldtake her out and have a nice

(53:46):
little dinner for her birthday.
That's nice, that's what you did.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
She didn't want me to do that.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
That's what I did, bro, and I'll work to get it
back, you know, some way.
I don't know exactly how it'sgoing to happen, but I'll figure
it out.
That's what I stay focused on,you know.

Speaker 1 (54:01):
Yeah, the money like nothing is worth like those
memories and special moments.

Speaker 2 (54:06):
I'm telling you it's important to me.
You know, when your spouse hisbirthday or whatever it may be,
you know, and like when mybrother got run over on that
motorcycle, you know I didn'thave the money but I went over
there and I gave his wife $20.
You know, that's all I couldafford and she was very grateful

(54:27):
for that.
You know, she said you don'thave to give me that, tom.
I said, no, I want you BecauseI know you're fixing to go
through some tough times.
You know, yeah, bro, becauseJim was the man.
He was the supplier ofeverything.
Yeah, all the money, everythingFood, everything, bro, and to

(54:49):
just have it ripped out of yourhand Crazy, your life is just
like that.
For somebody drinking anddriving and ran him over on his
Harley Davidson and killed himthat fast, bro, hit and run
thing.
They didn't take off.
They didn't take off.
But there was two young girls.
One of them, the driver, wasdrunk.
Yeah, they ran through a lightand ran him over on his Harley
Davidson, bro, damn, andtheidson is like a big, uh, 65
000 bike road that he justrestored a flathead.

(55:11):
You know, yeah, old schoolharley, he used to come out here
on an old time, bro and, uh, hewas my best.
You know he cannot, but he wasmy.
He's my bro, man.
Yeah, yeah, damn, that's fuckedup.
Yeah, like you are.
It devastated me, you know,like just something God forbid
ever happened.
But if you just got ripped awayfrom you know, my brotherly

(55:35):
love that you gave me, it woulddevastate me, bro, it would
break my heart.
You know what I mean.
I feel it, man, especially in atragic accident where you
didn't deserve to die on youknow what I mean.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
I've never done well with laws.
I've always actually donehorrible with laws and I feel
shit like that, bro, I don't dowell with it either, bro.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
I have learned over the years how to really my
wife's amazed at the things thatI Because way back then I would
just snap, bro, and it neverturned out well for me to do
that.
You know what I mean.
I'm sure people relate.
So I learned over the yearsalready to think.
You know, you got to think thisthrough man, don't do nothing

(56:18):
Because nothing is going to dobut harm you and your family and
what you're responsible for.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
So that alone keeps me on the right track bro,
consequences and understandingand learning from your mistakes,
because once you go, in thesystem, the judicial system, law
you're fucked.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
Yeah, pretty much, unless you've got a lot of money
, and it's sad If you don't havethe money to fight in the legal
system, you're screwed, bro.
You don't get the right helpman system, you're screwed, bro.
You ain't getting nothing,you're going to jail.
That's the help they're goingto give you here, sign this plea
bar and blah, blah, blah andwe'll fine you.
This.
They already know you have nomoney to pay to sit in, but you

(57:00):
got to do this and do that andit costs.
Everything costs.
Everything costs.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
Yeah, if you get out it rules your life because you
have to pay on it, yeah, andlike you got to go twice a week
to go do some shit.
Yeah, it's ridiculous.
Yeah, that was crazy, bro, it'sfucked up.
I guess, like a little bit in away, it's kind of like
journalism that I do with this,because I get to go places, talk

(57:23):
to people, like you talk toother people that you know to to
let people be aware of, like,what's going on and I hope that
I can help.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
You know, when you show this to people, maybe it'll
help somebody, man, but at thesame time, when you come, you
know when you go back home orwhatever.
I want to continue this lifestory that I have.
You know, for the other stuffthat I've been doing not just
all bad stuff.
I've had a lot of good stuffhappen in my life also.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
The story's not even close to being finished or being
written.
You know what I mean.
Like you just got out not thatlong ago and you've accomplished
so much in that period of time.
But life is literally.
Challenges are gonna come, nomatter what they're gonna be you
know, look in different ways,you know, like disguised in

(58:07):
different ways, but it's aboutjust like not giving up, like
you said.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
Well, I don't, I don't give up on nothing, never.
I don't know what tomorrow isgoing to bring my way.
I don't know nothing about that, but you know what?
I don't let that affect me.
Hey, go away, buddy man.
Yeah, you know, I don't let itaffect me.
I don't let it affect me.
I just live right now.
I just live day to day, brother, just like I did in prison.

(58:32):
For all, I lived day to day,knowing what I have to do today
to survive and take care of whatI have to take care of, and
tomorrow we'll deal with that.
You know what I mean?
Yep, and, and it seems to beworking out.
It is.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
Yeah, I'm proud of you, bro, Thank you.
I appreciate you alwaysreaching out and checking on me
and you know we've both done alot in a little bit of time.
Yeah, and it's cool, man.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
It's cool to watch you grow and get to hear the
story of how amazing you twocame to be and how man it's.
It's awesome.
It's awesome to see what you'vedone for yourself.
Well, because you've done a lot, you know, and I had a lot.
I would have much more, but Ididn't have to deal with you,
fucking man it'd be like that,man, that's life's challenges.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
Right, it is, we just gotta get through.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
You know they're trying to uh prosper on the hard
work I did out here and itain't working out too well for
them.
Well, I don't think it's goingto end well for them at all.
Energy don't lie.
After all the work I've doneout here, this place was fucked
off.
When I got here it was alreadyfucked off.
It was not livable in any wayat all.
And all this work that I'vedone, all the money I've spent

(59:43):
on here, and now they all justwant to move back out here and
throw me off.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
It ain't right.
It ain't right, and that's whyyou're going through this
process, and I bought it withyou.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
It ain't your first rodeo, is it?
It's not.
I don't have a whole lot offaith in the justice system, but
right now, this is a differentpart of the justice system that
I'm going into, and I'm not introuble for anything.
You know what I mean.
This is actually a time where Ican say what I need to say and
prove what I've done, and that'sexactly what I've done.
And that judge is sitting on itright now, bro, and I'm telling

(01:00:13):
you right now.
I already know, I know whathe's feeling.
Man, I'm telling you Just by.
You can tell when you're in acorner and a judge is in there,
they have proof, bro.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
Yeah, they got it.
They got it in front of them.
If they're doing their job likethey're supposed to do, then
you got to feel good about it, Ifeel great about it?

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
I do, and I just let him do his thing.
Whenever he makes his finaldecision.
I'm going to tell you right now.
I'm going to send you a copy ofthe deed.
Yeah, call me right away.
Oh, I most certainly will, andyeah, man.
This has been an everyday battlefor over a year now, fighting
these people, bro, most of themhere.

(01:00:54):
The next few days they findthat I'm you know.
They've just been attacking mewith all kinds of problems and
shit, cut my electricity off inthe middle of winter last year
we were freezing to death, bro,and that truck got on them on
their ass for that shit.
I was in contact with you.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
Yeah, yeah, while this shit was all going down,
bro, it's crazy, huh?
Yeah, it is Before I got to goto pee, because I'm about to pee
my pants.
But I think we got everything,because what we just did and
what we just did, my brother, Ilove you brother.
I love you brother.
I love you brother, I love youbrother, I appreciate you.
Thank you for doing this.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
I appreciate you too, bro.
I'm gonna make us some foodright now, real quick, and if
you wanna come, if you wannacome inside, wherever you come
inside, dude, but I'm gonna gobargain.
Think of this for real.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
Yeah, perfect, and I'm inside the truck.
This is the only one we need.