August 4, 2025 • 33 mins
Have you ever felt crazy when your intuition was screaming that something was wrong in your relationship? Jeni Brockbank's story will validate those feelings and show you there's a path forward through betrayal trauma.
Jeni, Executive Director of Her Wings Unfold, joins me to share her journey through a 25-year marriage marked by betrayal, and how she transformed her pain into purpose. After discovering her husband's double life just nine months into their marriage, Jeni spent years trying to hold everything together while raising six children and maintaining the appearance of a perfect family. Her powerful awakening came when she realized she wasn't the one breaking covenants or destroying their relationship.
What makes this conversation particularly valuable is Jeni's insight into the unique challenges of leaving an abusive relationship when religious beliefs emphasize eternal marriage. She candidly discusses how abuse often escalates after separation, sharing her own experience of temporary homelessness when her ex-husband convinced a court to place all their home sale proceeds into escrow.
The heart of our discussion focuses on Her Wings Unfold's revolutionary approach to healing through trauma-sensitive 12-steps. Traditional recovery models often pathologize natural responses to betrayal as "codependency," inadvertently blaming victims. Jeni's program instead validates survivors' experiences, emphasizing safety, self-compassion, and community healing to address what she calls the Four A's: abuse, addiction, adultery, and abandonment.
Whether you're navigating betrayal yourself or supporting someone who is, this conversation offers a compassionate framework for understanding the complex trauma of broken trust and the possibility of healing beyond it. As Jeni puts it, "I wasn't the one who broke the covenants" – a powerful reminder that taking back your life isn't breaking your promises.
To get in contact with Jeni:
Here are a few links:
Find a Trauma-Sensitive 12-Step meeting
Also, something that I didn't mention is that I did author a betrayal trauma book for members of the Church. Feel free to not use the link but here it is in case: Healing In Christ's Light From Patterns of Sexual Betrayal
I'd love to keep in touch! You are doing amazing and brave things. <3
Warmly,
--
Jeni Brockbank
Executive Director
H.E.R. Wings Unfold
435-339-3561
herwingsunfold.org / ts12anon.org
Please follow me on instagram and facebook @happilyevenaftercoach and if you want to see what coaching is all about I offer a free 45 min. clarity call via zoom.
Email me: hello@lifecoachjen.com for any comments or questions.
Thanks for listening, please like and review as well as share with your family and friends.
My website is www.lifecoachjen.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to my podcast .
Happily, even After.
I'm life coach, jen, I'mpassionate about helping people
recover from betrayal.
I rode the intense emotionalroller coaster and felt stuck
and traumatized for years.
It's the reason I became atrauma-informed certified life
coach who helps people like younavigate their post-betrayal
world.
I have the tools, processes andknowledge to help you not only
(00:32):
heal from the betrayal butcreate a healthy future.
Today, we begin to help youlive happily even after.
Hey friends, welcome to today'spodcast.
I'm so excited to have aspecial guest on today and so
interesting how the World WideWeb works right Instagram and
connected that way.
(00:52):
So I just I love how.
For me, I love social mediabecause it can connect us with
people that we would have nevermet before but have had our
(01:12):
shared experience with eachother.
It might be a differentexperience.
Her story is different than mystory, yet our pain is probably
very similar, and so I just lovethat.
So she agreed to be on mypodcast, so I'm so excited to
introduce her.
Her name's Jenny and I'm justgoing to let her go ahead and
tell us a little bit about her.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Hello and thank you for having me.
It's really fun to meet youlike over the internet, here via
Zoom.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, love the content you produce.
Yeah, so my name is JennyBrockbank, and a little bit
about me is I'm a mom of six.
I love the color red.
It took me a while to figureout, even in betrayal trauma,
what my favorite color was.
I don't know if people canrelate with that to where it's
(02:05):
like we just lose ourselves abit, but when I figured that out
I was so excited.
All right, I would have beenmarried 25 years this last March
, but I did file for divorce twoyears ago.
It's not final yet, but that'swhere I'm at right now.
And now I am really honored tobe working as the executive
(02:27):
director of a nonprofit calledHer Wings Unfold, and we help
women heal from another's abuse,addiction, adultery and or
abandonment, and we do that invarious ways, with advocacy.
We do that.
We have some plans for thingslike a physical facility where
(02:48):
we hope to offertrauma-sensitive yoga, art
therapy and other things.
We also, though, have our brandnew, fresh out of the gate,
been through different testgroups trauma-sensitive 12-step
program, and it is called TS12and on for trauma-sensitive
12-steps, anonymous.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Can I just so really fast.
You're located in Utah, is thatright?
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
But do people have to live in Utah to be in your
program, or how does that work?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
So for trauma-sensitive 12 steps, we
have online virtual meetings andreally the only cost would be
the cost of the book.
So the literature toparticipate.
We love that format because, Imean, anybody in the healing
world knows healing is expensiveand trauma survivors it's worth
(03:41):
the money.
But what do you do when youdon't have it?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Trauma survivors it's worth the money but what do you
do when you don't have it?
Yeah, no, it's so great.
And also the convenience ofonline, right Like, I meet with
my clients on Zoom, so thatmeans I can meet with them
wherever they live and whereverthey're at.
And then a lot of times, theyhave young kids and it's really
hard.
Then it's like, okay, I have toget a babysitter so I can go to
therapy, like, okay, I have toget a babysitter so I can go to
(04:08):
therapy, and then so I'm sograteful.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Zoom is a thing because you can heal right in
your own home.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I love that.
Yeah, yeah.
So you focus just with women,is that right?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Well, mostly so.
The focus of our foundation iswomen.
I will say that with TraumaSensitive 12 Steps, the groups
are autonomous and so people cancreate their own meetings.
So we have a general meetingthat would be for anyone who's
experienced relational trauma,but we also have, like a
betrayal trauma, women's onlyspecific meeting on Thursday
(04:40):
nights.
And so it's just a wide varietyand each group gets to kind of
make up their own rules andtheir own meeting qualifications
for who can attend.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Okay, yeah, because I know from experience there's a
lot of men out there that arealso suffering from betrayal
trauma, right, and I think,bizarrely, this is one area that
men well, I don't know womenhold a lot of shame, but I think
men almost sometimes hold moreshame when their wife has had an
affair.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
I don't want to compare, but for whatever reason
, it's like the normal, don'tyou think?
Like men are the ones that areusually unfaithful?
I don't know but they have tobe unfaithful with.
Usually they're unfaithful witha woman Now, sometimes it's not
that way, but anyways.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
No, I hear you, and the cool thing is is that if men
are, they're like gosh.
We would love that support andwe like the literature.
They can start their ownmeeting with their own
qualifications, and so we wouldlove to see that happen.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yeah, and so they have to get approved through
your foundation.
Is that how it works?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Well, because they're autonomous, they don't
necessarily have to be approved,but they can be listed on our
website, and what we would do,though, is, if there are, how we
would keep a little bit ofgroup safety.
We do like to offer optionaltraining for those starting
groups, and we'd like to offer,like slide presentations, that
(06:14):
they can show so that's so.
That's easier to run a group.
And then also, if we would get,say, too many complaints or
something, we would probablyremove that group from from the
website.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
But we don't anticipate that happening, you
know so, yeah, someone that'spassionate, that wants to help
people, are gonna be a good fitprobably probably so you focus
on the four, four a's.
Is that what you called them?
Speaker 1 (06:42):
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Abuse, addiction, adultery and abandonment.
So tell me a little bit why youfocused on those and why you
think those go well together.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
I mean they kind of do I agree?
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I will just use in thecase of, say, someone has a sex
addiction, right, and so nowyou're dealing with addiction.
Well, in order for anyone tohave an addiction that's going
to prosper, there's going tohave to be some kind of lying
(07:14):
and hiding.
Usually that involves some sortof form of manipulation or
gaslighting or something likethat.
So now we have abuse addiction,sliding or something like that.
So now we have abuse addiction.
It might turn into adultery, ifit's like any kind of sex
addiction or anything like that.
And then also, with abandonment, all of a sudden they're either
(07:36):
so involved in theirdestructive behaviors or they
also have to disconnect from apartner to betray them, and so
then it's like they'reemotionally disconnected,
they're physically disconnected,spiritually, like just all of
the things, and it's veryintense.
So what we find is is that ifthere is one thing, there's
(07:58):
often multiple.
That doesn't necessarily meanthat that's the case across the
board, but, but mostly I wouldsay it is that if there's going
to be one sort of 4A behavior,there's going to be others as
well.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, and I think for me, like my, for my own story,
like I would have never said Iwas in an abusive marriage, I
would have never said that Idefinitely knew my spouse was
having had had and was havingaffairs, but I would never have
named it abusive.
And until I was able to get outand start healing because I
(08:36):
think I was so in it that Iwasn't even aware and I'm like,
well, he wasn't hitting me, liketo me people know, like, oh,
abuse feels more physical, butthe amount of emotional abuse,
it's really sad.
I don't know how far into yourmarriage did you realize what
was going on, or did it take youto get out of it, to feel that?
Speaker 1 (09:00):
that Well, nine months into my marriage.
Funny story was that I realizedI was like oh, it looks like in
our joint email account, whichthey learn and get trickier.
But in our joint email accountthere were some open emails that
were explicit.
And I remember going andtalking to him and saying I love
you, I forgive you, go talk tothe bishop, who's our
(09:23):
ecclesiastical leader, and don'tdo it again.
And then I realized, oh, he isdoing it again and again, and
again and again, but it washidden so well that I wouldn't.
It was like I would see a mouseevery few years.
I remember telling him you know, if there's one mouse, I think
there's got to be more on thewalls.
(09:43):
You know, I think I'm justseeing this, this one little
thing, but I think there's more.
And he would say no, no, no, no.
But about 17 and a half yearsinto our marriage I had just.
Really I'm like I can't do thisanymore.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
I cannot do this anymore.
I remember kneeling down andsaying Heavenly Father.
And saying, heavenly Father, Iwill do anything, I'll do
therapy and I'll do 12 steps andI'll do just all of the things.
And I remember this reallystrong impression that help was
now on the way and I thought,really you were my therapist.
(10:20):
Now I have to go and do allthese other things, but I
remember this feeling like Idon't have to reinvent the wheel
for you and you'll heal incommunity, which has proved true
.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
It's really beautiful , I do.
I think group healing is reallypowerful.
I do both individual and groupbut I agree.
So you had the prompting yourwhole marriage, but you thought,
kept on thinking Do you thinkyou're religious?
I am too.
Do you think that part of itkept you in your marriage for
(10:54):
longer?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Oh for sure.
Yeah, in my religion, I mean,which I love, we are strong
believers in covenants andcovenant relationships and when
we get married it's for eternity, not till death, do you part.
So for me it was like, oh, if Ileave this relationship, you
know I'm breaking a covenant,not realizing, honestly, what I
(11:18):
do now.
Better is that I wasn't the onewho broke the relationship.
I wasn't the one who broke thecovenants, I wasn't the one who
you know told lies and did allof the things like that wasn't
me.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, but don't you think well, for I'm just going
to speak for myself.
I'm a rule follower and I amvery obedient, so it's almost
like we felt responsible.
I for sure felt responsible,and I'm like it never.
I just thought oh no, I cankeep this together, I can hold
it together, I can fix this.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I for sure, my spouse for sure said it was my fault,
right, like if you were nicer,if you looked a certain way.
He was very focused on myoutward appearance, so I just
always felt not good enough andso I was always in my marriage I
can see he was that he wasbetter than me and put me down
(12:24):
and I, I guess, becamecomfortable in that position,
which is really breaks my heartfor myself, but I think a lot of
women do that.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Oh, I think we do.
I mean, I certainly did so muchof that to where, at least for
me, the concept is is oh, ifthere's something I can do to
fix this, then I have some kindof power over this situation,
not realizing actually, whenthere are destructive behaviors
going on that I'm notparticipating in, I can't
(12:48):
actually fix somebody else andwhat they're doing.
You know better ways to handlethat.
Now I know of course there areboundaries or are taking
excellent care of myself, soulcare you know, just doing all of
the things to make sure I'mokay after experiencing hard and
traumatic things, but I didn'tknow that back then.
You know, unlike you I'm likeokay, well, maybe if I look this
(13:11):
certain way or he's reallyvolatile, so it was one of those
.
If I keep the kids quiet, oryou know all of the things like
that, then maybe it'll be okayand maybe it'll calm down and my
marriage and family will be allright.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, yeah.
So your kids?
How old are your kids?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I've got a 22-year-old, a 19-year-old who's
on a mission for our church.
I've got a 16-year-old, andthen 12, 11, and 10.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
So those last three were born really close together.
And how are they dealing withthe separation, divorce?
How are they feeling aboutthings?
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Well, that, to me, is one of the greatest tragedies
of what has happened.
When my husband left, heexposed my children to a great
amount of trauma.
And within a year and a half, Ihad three children who were
hospitalized for suicidal issues.
And so it has been very intense, like very, very, very intense.
(14:20):
I will say I see some progressnow that it's been.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
It's been two years, you know so almost well, I think
the thing is, our kids areshattered because their reality
is not their reality anymoreright and our reality is not our
reality anymore, and so realityand fantasy it's like wait,
(14:46):
you've taught me this way, atleast in my experience.
My former spouse was veryreligious, and then it's not at
all Like living a totallydifferent lifestyle.
And he raised his kids in, andso then it's like wait a second.
It's so confusing for them.
So, of course they're going tofeel that and it's like wait,
(15:09):
our family was forever and nowit's not.
What does that mean for me?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Definitely that's hard for anyone to wrap their
mind around, but I think,especially kids who and they
have no control, they have nopower over the situation and all
of a sudden they're going tohave two homes.
It's just very, very hard andstressful for them, yes, so hard
, so hard, so it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
But I think for me, like I think there's so so much
repair and ability for kids,especially as they get older,
things will make sense to themthey'll be like oh, we were
(15:53):
walking on eggshells now Iunderstand why we were walking
on eggshells.
Now I understand why we werewalking on eggshells.
I have hope.
I have hope I'm not there yet,but I have hope I'm going know.
But it is hard because theymost kids want they still love
their mom and they love theirdad, Even though their dad did
some really awful things, right,Right.
(16:15):
So that's hard, but continue on.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Jenny, I guess I'll share that a little bit more
about my story.
Yeah, I think women mightrelate with this part in that so
often I mean, we're told leavethe abuse, you know, and given
judgment for it.
Actually we're given judgmentif we don't stay too.
So it's like there is nowinning the war of opinions.
(16:43):
But I would say to the thoughtsof leaving the abuse I heard
what they were saying, Iunderstood the concept behind it
, but I'm telling you, when Iwould pray about it, I just had
the strong feeling it's going tobe really, really, really hard
and I thought well, this is hardLiving in it too is really
hard, you know, but finally somelines were crossed that I just
(17:08):
couldn't come back, come backfrom, and so it was a little
crazy.
I had I'd filed a protectiveorder and got that and then
filed for divorce and I don'tknow.
I think I was very surprised atthe amount of abuse that
(17:29):
happened post-separation.
I was so surprised I know thatdoesn't happen to everybody, but
it does to some of us to whereit's like okay, I left a really
hard situation for anotherincredibly hard situation and
there had been just so many hardthings, and recently I'll share
(17:50):
, you know I'd had suicidalchildren, one of them I had full
custody of, and because of thatI just really I couldn't get
employment outside of my home.
She needed some supervision andso, as such, I was working from
home.
But we went, we sold our homeand when we did, there was
plenty of money for me to likerelocate.
(18:12):
But he petitioned the court toput all of the money into escrow
and won, and so basically thatmade me and my children homeless
for a good two months.
It was so intense and so hardfor a good two months.
It was so intense and so hard.
But one thing that I love andappreciate was the community
really came together for me andmy children, like in very
(18:32):
beautiful ways, I did a GoFundMe, which I don't like doing that.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
That's not my favorite thing, but it really
was one of those I'm like Idon't know what to do exactly,
but don't you think people wantto help and that's such a
beautiful way that people canhelp and money is helpful,
especially in this situation andI do think you're right.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
I think they did want to help and they did step in
and I've been able to relocate,live in a really cute townhome
in a safe neighborhood and justfeel a lot better about my
situation with my children here.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Do you think he became this way because he was
exposed, or the lack of control,or what do you think?
Or do you have even gone there?
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yeah, I haven't figured all of that out.
To be honest, I do know hewould.
He would talk about his firstexposure.
Was it like nine years old?
So?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
so there was that.
Well, it happened when I waslittle.
I can't help this, yeah, toblame it on that.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, I mean, that is part of it.
I don't know Something.
Something I've sharedpreviously is that he also has
mental illness, and so then Ithink it exasperated it and I
couldn't, I can't really tellyou all the reasons why, but
they're, they feed off of eachother somehow.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yeah, yeah, I just I find it fascinating.
I'm like, what is he thinking,right, like, why make this
harder than it needed to be?
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Why make it harder than it needed to be, and to me
it's like, if you're, you'reharming your child's mother by
something so strong you knowwith like a place to live that's
just so necessary yeah it'sharmful for the children too
yeah, and but I, I for sure, Imean for sure shame, right, so
much shame yeah so the inabilityto make it his fault, to accept
(20:32):
his responsibility, I think,focuses.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
He wants to blame it on you, so he's going to make
you suffer.
Yes, absolutely Lots of Darvo,you know you probably talked
about that with your audience,for sure.
In case, I'll just mention itagain yeah, say what Darvo
stands for.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, they deny, they accuse and then they reverse
the victim and the offender.
Your audience for sure, in caseI'll just mention it again, say
what darvo stands for.
Yeah, they deny, they accuseand then they reverse the victim
and the offender.
Yes, and it is a classic waythat they just don't take
accountability and make try tomake it look at least like yeah,
the victim is actually theperpetrator.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, and don't you think like, and we're like, oh
my gosh, maybe it is.
Maybe I did do something wrong,maybe I was mean this one time.
Maybe I didn't pick yourclothes up exactly how you
wanted them to and I didn't.
I forgot to do the laundry oneday and I didn't have dinner on
the table at five.
So, okay, let me try again,cause I was a stay at home mom,
so I stay-at-home mom for 26years.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, I think you're right, because really, the
partner, who is not theoffending spouse.
We're working on ourselves,we're like trying to be.
It was like I want to show up.
Well, I want to show up as mybest self.
I want to make repair, I wantto apologize for things that I
did you know?
I want to be my very best self,and so then, when it's like
(21:52):
they're finding all the littlethings, yeah, it sounds like you
started being aware like I needto get help before because, see
(22:13):
, I never had anyone tell me why.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I don't think I asked anyone actually like if I
should get divorced or not.
I just did it, but no one wouldhave said you're in an abusive
marriage to me.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, that's so hard right.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
So it sounds like you were getting help from before.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, At that point I would say I've been in recovery
since 2017.
Okay so so yeah, I've beengetting help for a while, but
before that you know but beforethat, you know, before that I
wouldn't tell anyone I I painteda really rosy picture and he
would do things like open my cardoor, yes, then he'd get in and
yell at me.
You know that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
So it was really intense, to where it it
sometimes looks good, you knowfor sure, it's family at church
with six cute kids and yeah yeah, did he live that life, a
religious life too.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
He did, yeah, and he still does.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
It is interesting.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
So he's still involved in church and that is
hard for you, that would be hardfor me.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I think it's confusing for me, but you know I
do want that for my children.
So overall I'm just really gladthat he does that.
But I just know for me, and noteven talking about him per se,
but if I'm living a double lifeI almost can't live with myself.
I can't function well.
It's like if there's somethingI need to make repair for or
(23:52):
repent of or whatever, I reallyneed to get that off of my chest
so to be able to live a doublelife consistently for years at a
time.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I don't know how people do that yeah, I think
they compartmentalize andthey've justified their behavior
.
And even if he's like, well,this happens since I was nine,
like okay, you're an adult nowand now it's time to fix it.
Right so your whole family iscrumbling and you're still
choosing the pornographyaddiction, because his addiction
(24:27):
was mostly in pornography, asfar as I know, as far as I know.
So, yeah, it's very fascinating, right, and I'm so glad that
you were able to get I mean, yougot help a lot sooner than I
did, but I think it's great soyou could build on HEAL and you
can teach your kids these thingsright.
Oh, totally, and you can teachyour kids these things right.
(24:49):
Oh, totally.
Do they know what their dad hasdone?
Or have you had to hide that ornot hide it, but are you not
able to talk to him about it?
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Well, one cool thing that I think he did was before
we were divorced.
He did sit them all down at onepoint and he was trying to work
on things and did say this iswhat I know, what I've struggled
with, and he did tell them allI've really hurt your mom at the
time and he took some ownershipfor it then until it escalated
(25:18):
more.
But and the other thing isregarding the trauma he was the
one who exposed them to somevery severe situations.
So a lot of it we do talk about, or we can talk about at least
openly, because you just can'thide what happened you know, and
(25:38):
that he's already talked toeverybody about it yeah, but
that's good, then that's good.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And I mean he did take some ownership right but it
did it kind of cancels it outwhen they like then do all the
other stuff.
It's like wait, it's notintense, right, yes, shoot.
So do you have a court date?
Do you know when your divorceis going to be finalized?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
It might be finalized August 1st We'll see.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Oh good, We'll see.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
There's some ongoing things, but you never know,
right.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, with kids I know it can be complicated and
many all that yeah for sure.
So tell us if people that arelistening to my podcast if they
want to get more informationabout what you do.
I'll, of course, put it all inthe show notes, but how can they
get in touch with you?
What's the best way to do that?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
yeah, probably through our platform.
So we've got ts12 and on, whichis trauma sensitive, 12 steps
anonymous and you have religion.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
I guess all anonymous things are religious, are they
or no?
Speaker 1 (26:42):
so they're not religious, they're spiritual.
They're spiritually basedthough so you get to bring any
religion that you would like tothe healing experience and we do
talk a lot about, in fact.
Can I focus on that for?
a minute yeah, because I do love12 steps a lot, but I have
found we know more now we can dobetter.
(27:03):
Yes, and so, as such, I feellike a lot of 12-step programs
were written on codependent andco-addict models.
So we wrote this on a, on acodependent trauma model, where
so codependence honors thatthere was like there's a
(27:24):
profound need and honors thatwhen we're trying to fix
relationships with people,that's normal.
Yes, that's normal, Instead ofsaying you're just co-addicted
or something you know, which canbe very destructive.
And so the other thing is we doit with a trauma model, which is
really cool because people canlook and see the three stages of
(27:47):
the trauma model we use aresafety and stabilization, grief
and mourning and integration andgrowth.
And the really cool thing isthat with, as they're working,
the steps, you can look and sayyou know what, right now I just
need safety and you can focus onthat aspect.
So, like a traditional stepfour can be very invalidating
(28:09):
for a trauma survivor, becausetraditional step fours are about
character defects.
We don't love that term.
People can eventually work atraditional step four in our
program just we'd call itsomething different, like
survival mechanisms, that kindof thing.
But but they can also work.
(28:30):
They can go in and we've gotlike a list on our website of
different suggestions ofinventories.
They can do things likeself-worth that would validate
that.
That would be like a safetyplan.
Recently I did one that Ireally loved that was a fear
inventory and was able to lookand say, oh, this is why I'm
feeling this distressed aboutthis and it was able to validate
(28:53):
and to ultimately move forwardin a better way, more healthy
way, more grounded way.
So it's really powerful in thatpeople come as they are and
we're very cautious with thelanguage.
Traditional 12 steps will havewords like sanity.
We're losing sanity.
(29:14):
Well, betrayed spouses you know, those who've experienced any
of the 4As feel crazy a lot ofthe time.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah, I used to think I was crazy.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I thinkI'm crazy.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
I know Me too Well, no like no, I was not crazy.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
That'm like.
Oh my gosh, I think I'm crazy,like I know Me too Well.
No, like, no, I was not crazy.
That was my gut telling me likeyou are right on and they're
trying to throw you off becausethey do not want to get caught,
right, yeah, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
And it's such a disorienting way to live, you
know.
Yeah so when we can validate.
Yeah, of course you're feelingthat way.
That's normal to feel that way,and what can we do to stay in
truth and what can we do to calmour nervous systems, because
it's so distressing when we'refeeling all the things like that
.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yes, I love that.
It sounds like it has lots morecompassion, right?
So much compassion,self-compassion is woven
throughout the entire program.
I love that and.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I really value that for myself, for my own healing.
I feel like when I could shiftinto self-compassion, my healing
took off in different ways thatit hadn't before.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, I agree.
I think that's so spot on.
And drop the judgment rightTotally.
Yeah, so true.
Well, I love that you're doingthis work Right there with you,
right yeah thank you.
We have different paths thatwe're doing, but I think there's
sadly a lot of people in thisworld that, whether it's
(30:43):
pornography or just abuse,addiction, adultery, abandonment
, all those things pornographyor just abuse, addiction,
adultery, abandonment, all thosethings people are suffering and
need a safe place to go.
And so I just love that and Idon't think I know.
When I got married in the 90s,there wasn't trauma, trauma.
Knowledge has really just beenmore prevalent in like 2010 and
(31:07):
on right, like some betrayaltrauma.
They didn't even have a namefor it, right, right.
And so I even I had done sometherapy and it's like are you
having enough sex?
And I'm like that's not theproblem.
Yes, sex life is not theproblem, I can guarantee that.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
That was me too.
I'm like I've tried all thethings you know, I just remember
thinking sex addiction is notgoing to be in my marriage.
If I can help it, you know I'mgoing to make sure, but uh, that
that backfired.
I think yeah, well, you didn'tknow like I didn't know.
I think we're naive.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
I, I don't know.
I'm glad I'm naive, like I likewho I am, like I like that.
I don't not super worldly.
I've learned a lot anddefinitely become more than I
was before, but yeah, I think wejust learn and grow and then
you have a heart like mine.
We want to help people.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Definitely yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Definitely yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
I love that we share that.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Yes, well, jenny, it's so nice to meet you.
Thank you so much for being onmy podcast, and we'll talk about
how to get all the informationto me.
But anyways, before we go.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Could I share the platforms Would?
Speaker 2 (32:19):
that be okay, yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
So you can contact us at ts12anonorg and you can find
a meeting there.
You can also buy the book whichthere's a link on ts12anon for
that.
You can go to herwingsunfoldorgand contact us there.
But you can also follow us onInstagram and we're
herwingsunfold on Instagram, butwe are also.
(32:43):
We just started a brand newpodcast to us at least, that's
called Relational Trauma SOS.
That addresses 4A behavior, andwe would love to have you join
us with that.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
So thank you, yeah, thank you for having us All
right, and I'll put all that inthe show notes just in case we
keep driving and you can't writethis down.
But anyways, all right, friends, thanks so much for listening.
If you like this podcast,please share it with your family
and friends and I will talk toyou next week.
If you want to learn how tolive happily even after, sign up
(33:16):
for my email at hello atlifecoachjen with one n dot com,
follow me on Instagram andFacebook at happily even after
coach.
Let's work together to createyour happily even after.
Welcome to my podcast .
Happily, even After.
I'm life coach, jen, I'mpassionate about helping people
recover from betrayal.
I rode the intense emotionalroller coaster and felt stuck
and traumatized for years.
It's the reason I became atrauma-informed certified life
coach who helps people like younavigate their post-betrayal
world.
I have the tools, processes andknowledge to help you not only
(00:32):
heal from the betrayal butcreate a healthy future.
Today, we begin to help youlive happily even after.
Hey friends, welcome to today'spodcast.
I'm so excited to have aspecial guest on today and so
interesting how the World WideWeb works right Instagram and
connected that way.
(00:52):
So I just I love how.
For me, I love social mediabecause it can connect us with
people that we would have nevermet before but have had our
(01:12):
shared experience with eachother.
It might be a differentexperience.
Her story is different than mystory, yet our pain is probably
very similar, and so I just lovethat.
So she agreed to be on mypodcast, so I'm so excited to
introduce her.
Her name's Jenny and I'm justgoing to let her go ahead and
tell us a little bit about her.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Hello and thank you for having me.
It's really fun to meet youlike over the internet, here via
Zoom.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, love the content you produce.
Yeah, so my name is JennyBrockbank, and a little bit
about me is I'm a mom of six.
I love the color red.
It took me a while to figureout, even in betrayal trauma,
what my favorite color was.
I don't know if people canrelate with that to where it's
(02:05):
like we just lose ourselves abit, but when I figured that out
I was so excited.
All right, I would have beenmarried 25 years this last March
, but I did file for divorce twoyears ago.
It's not final yet, but that'swhere I'm at right now.
And now I am really honored tobe working as the executive
(02:27):
director of a nonprofit calledHer Wings Unfold, and we help
women heal from another's abuse,addiction, adultery and or
abandonment, and we do that invarious ways, with advocacy.
We do that.
We have some plans for thingslike a physical facility where
(02:48):
we hope to offertrauma-sensitive yoga, art
therapy and other things.
We also, though, have our brandnew, fresh out of the gate,
been through different testgroups trauma-sensitive 12-step
program, and it is called TS12and on for trauma-sensitive
12-steps, anonymous.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Can I just so really fast.
You're located in Utah, is thatright?
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
But do people have to live in Utah to be in your
program, or how does that work?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
So for trauma-sensitive 12 steps, we
have online virtual meetings andreally the only cost would be
the cost of the book.
So the literature toparticipate.
We love that format because, Imean, anybody in the healing
world knows healing is expensiveand trauma survivors it's worth
(03:41):
the money.
But what do you do when youdon't have it?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Trauma survivors it's worth the money but what do you
do when you don't have it?
Yeah, no, it's so great.
And also the convenience ofonline, right Like, I meet with
my clients on Zoom, so thatmeans I can meet with them
wherever they live and whereverthey're at.
And then a lot of times, theyhave young kids and it's really
hard.
Then it's like, okay, I have toget a babysitter so I can go to
therapy, like, okay, I have toget a babysitter so I can go to
(04:08):
therapy, and then so I'm sograteful.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Zoom is a thing because you can heal right in
your own home.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I love that.
Yeah, yeah.
So you focus just with women,is that right?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Well, mostly so.
The focus of our foundation iswomen.
I will say that with TraumaSensitive 12 Steps, the groups
are autonomous and so people cancreate their own meetings.
So we have a general meetingthat would be for anyone who's
experienced relational trauma,but we also have, like a
betrayal trauma, women's onlyspecific meeting on Thursday
(04:40):
nights.
And so it's just a wide varietyand each group gets to kind of
make up their own rules andtheir own meeting qualifications
for who can attend.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Okay, yeah, because I know from experience there's a
lot of men out there that arealso suffering from betrayal
trauma, right, and I think,bizarrely, this is one area that
men well, I don't know womenhold a lot of shame, but I think
men almost sometimes hold moreshame when their wife has had an
affair.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
I don't want to compare, but for whatever reason
, it's like the normal, don'tyou think?
Like men are the ones that areusually unfaithful?
I don't know but they have tobe unfaithful with.
Usually they're unfaithful witha woman Now, sometimes it's not
that way, but anyways.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
No, I hear you, and the cool thing is is that if men
are, they're like gosh.
We would love that support andwe like the literature.
They can start their ownmeeting with their own
qualifications, and so we wouldlove to see that happen.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yeah, and so they have to get approved through
your foundation.
Is that how it works?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Well, because they're autonomous, they don't
necessarily have to be approved,but they can be listed on our
website, and what we would do,though, is, if there are, how we
would keep a little bit ofgroup safety.
We do like to offer optionaltraining for those starting
groups, and we'd like to offer,like slide presentations, that
(06:14):
they can show so that's so.
That's easier to run a group.
And then also, if we would get,say, too many complaints or
something, we would probablyremove that group from from the
website.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
But we don't anticipate that happening, you
know so, yeah, someone that'spassionate, that wants to help
people, are gonna be a good fitprobably probably so you focus
on the four, four a's.
Is that what you called them?
Speaker 1 (06:42):
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Abuse, addiction, adultery and abandonment.
So tell me a little bit why youfocused on those and why you
think those go well together.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
I mean they kind of do I agree?
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I will just use in thecase of, say, someone has a sex
addiction, right, and so nowyou're dealing with addiction.
Well, in order for anyone tohave an addiction that's going
to prosper, there's going tohave to be some kind of lying
(07:14):
and hiding.
Usually that involves some sortof form of manipulation or
gaslighting or something likethat.
So now we have abuse addiction,sliding or something like that.
So now we have abuse addiction.
It might turn into adultery, ifit's like any kind of sex
addiction or anything like that.
And then also, with abandonment, all of a sudden they're either
(07:36):
so involved in theirdestructive behaviors or they
also have to disconnect from apartner to betray them, and so
then it's like they'reemotionally disconnected,
they're physically disconnected,spiritually, like just all of
the things, and it's veryintense.
So what we find is is that ifthere is one thing, there's
(07:58):
often multiple.
That doesn't necessarily meanthat that's the case across the
board, but, but mostly I wouldsay it is that if there's going
to be one sort of 4A behavior,there's going to be others as
well.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, and I think for me, like my, for my own story,
like I would have never said Iwas in an abusive marriage, I
would have never said that Idefinitely knew my spouse was
having had had and was havingaffairs, but I would never have
named it abusive.
And until I was able to get outand start healing because I
(08:36):
think I was so in it that Iwasn't even aware and I'm like,
well, he wasn't hitting me, liketo me people know, like, oh,
abuse feels more physical, butthe amount of emotional abuse,
it's really sad.
I don't know how far into yourmarriage did you realize what
was going on, or did it take youto get out of it, to feel that?
Speaker 1 (09:00):
that Well, nine months into my marriage.
Funny story was that I realizedI was like oh, it looks like in
our joint email account, whichthey learn and get trickier.
But in our joint email accountthere were some open emails that
were explicit.
And I remember going andtalking to him and saying I love
you, I forgive you, go talk tothe bishop, who's our
(09:23):
ecclesiastical leader, and don'tdo it again.
And then I realized, oh, he isdoing it again and again, and
again and again, but it washidden so well that I wouldn't.
It was like I would see a mouseevery few years.
I remember telling him you know, if there's one mouse, I think
there's got to be more on thewalls.
(09:43):
You know, I think I'm justseeing this, this one little
thing, but I think there's more.
And he would say no, no, no, no.
But about 17 and a half yearsinto our marriage I had just.
Really I'm like I can't do thisanymore.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
I cannot do this anymore.
I remember kneeling down andsaying Heavenly Father.
And saying, heavenly Father, Iwill do anything, I'll do
therapy and I'll do 12 steps andI'll do just all of the things.
And I remember this reallystrong impression that help was
now on the way and I thought,really you were my therapist.
(10:20):
Now I have to go and do allthese other things, but I
remember this feeling like Idon't have to reinvent the wheel
for you and you'll heal incommunity, which has proved true
.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
It's really beautiful , I do.
I think group healing is reallypowerful.
I do both individual and groupbut I agree.
So you had the prompting yourwhole marriage, but you thought,
kept on thinking Do you thinkyou're religious?
I am too.
Do you think that part of itkept you in your marriage for
(10:54):
longer?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Oh for sure.
Yeah, in my religion, I mean,which I love, we are strong
believers in covenants andcovenant relationships and when
we get married it's for eternity, not till death, do you part.
So for me it was like, oh, if Ileave this relationship, you
know I'm breaking a covenant,not realizing, honestly, what I
(11:18):
do now.
Better is that I wasn't the onewho broke the relationship.
I wasn't the one who broke thecovenants, I wasn't the one who
you know told lies and did allof the things like that wasn't
me.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, but don't you think well, for I'm just going
to speak for myself.
I'm a rule follower and I amvery obedient, so it's almost
like we felt responsible.
I for sure felt responsible,and I'm like it never.
I just thought oh no, I cankeep this together, I can hold
it together, I can fix this.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I for sure, my spouse for sure said it was my fault,
right, like if you were nicer,if you looked a certain way.
He was very focused on myoutward appearance, so I just
always felt not good enough andso I was always in my marriage I
can see he was that he wasbetter than me and put me down
(12:24):
and I, I guess, becamecomfortable in that position,
which is really breaks my heartfor myself, but I think a lot of
women do that.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Oh, I think we do.
I mean, I certainly did so muchof that to where, at least for
me, the concept is is oh, ifthere's something I can do to
fix this, then I have some kindof power over this situation,
not realizing actually, whenthere are destructive behaviors
going on that I'm notparticipating in, I can't
(12:48):
actually fix somebody else andwhat they're doing.
You know better ways to handlethat.
Now I know of course there areboundaries or are taking
excellent care of myself, soulcare you know, just doing all of
the things to make sure I'mokay after experiencing hard and
traumatic things, but I didn'tknow that back then.
You know, unlike you I'm likeokay, well, maybe if I look this
(13:11):
certain way or he's reallyvolatile, so it was one of those
.
If I keep the kids quiet, oryou know all of the things like
that, then maybe it'll be okayand maybe it'll calm down and my
marriage and family will be allright.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, yeah.
So your kids?
How old are your kids?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I've got a 22-year-old, a 19-year-old who's
on a mission for our church.
I've got a 16-year-old, andthen 12, 11, and 10.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
So those last three were born really close together.
And how are they dealing withthe separation, divorce?
How are they feeling aboutthings?
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Well, that, to me, is one of the greatest tragedies
of what has happened.
When my husband left, heexposed my children to a great
amount of trauma.
And within a year and a half, Ihad three children who were
hospitalized for suicidal issues.
And so it has been very intense, like very, very, very intense.
(14:20):
I will say I see some progressnow that it's been.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
It's been two years, you know so almost well, I think
the thing is, our kids areshattered because their reality
is not their reality anymoreright and our reality is not our
reality anymore, and so realityand fantasy it's like wait,
(14:46):
you've taught me this way, atleast in my experience.
My former spouse was veryreligious, and then it's not at
all Like living a totallydifferent lifestyle.
And he raised his kids in, andso then it's like wait a second.
It's so confusing for them.
So, of course they're going tofeel that and it's like wait,
(15:09):
our family was forever and nowit's not.
What does that mean for me?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Definitely that's hard for anyone to wrap their
mind around, but I think,especially kids who and they
have no control, they have nopower over the situation and all
of a sudden they're going tohave two homes.
It's just very, very hard andstressful for them, yes, so hard
, so hard, so it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
But I think for me, like I think there's so so much
repair and ability for kids,especially as they get older,
things will make sense to themthey'll be like oh, we were
(15:53):
walking on eggshells now Iunderstand why we were walking
on eggshells.
Now I understand why we werewalking on eggshells.
I have hope.
I have hope I'm not there yet,but I have hope I'm going know.
But it is hard because theymost kids want they still love
their mom and they love theirdad, Even though their dad did
some really awful things, right,Right.
(16:15):
So that's hard, but continue on.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Jenny, I guess I'll share that a little bit more
about my story.
Yeah, I think women mightrelate with this part in that so
often I mean, we're told leavethe abuse, you know, and given
judgment for it.
Actually we're given judgmentif we don't stay too.
So it's like there is nowinning the war of opinions.
(16:43):
But I would say to the thoughtsof leaving the abuse I heard
what they were saying, Iunderstood the concept behind it
, but I'm telling you, when Iwould pray about it, I just had
the strong feeling it's going tobe really, really, really hard
and I thought well, this is hardLiving in it too is really
hard, you know, but finally somelines were crossed that I just
(17:08):
couldn't come back, come backfrom, and so it was a little
crazy.
I had I'd filed a protectiveorder and got that and then
filed for divorce and I don'tknow.
I think I was very surprised atthe amount of abuse that
(17:29):
happened post-separation.
I was so surprised I know thatdoesn't happen to everybody, but
it does to some of us to whereit's like okay, I left a really
hard situation for anotherincredibly hard situation and
there had been just so many hardthings, and recently I'll share
(17:50):
, you know I'd had suicidalchildren, one of them I had full
custody of, and because of thatI just really I couldn't get
employment outside of my home.
She needed some supervision andso, as such, I was working from
home.
But we went, we sold our homeand when we did, there was
plenty of money for me to likerelocate.
(18:12):
But he petitioned the court toput all of the money into escrow
and won, and so basically thatmade me and my children homeless
for a good two months.
It was so intense and so hardfor a good two months.
It was so intense and so hard.
But one thing that I love andappreciate was the community
really came together for me andmy children, like in very
(18:32):
beautiful ways, I did a GoFundMe, which I don't like doing that.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
That's not my favorite thing, but it really
was one of those I'm like Idon't know what to do exactly,
but don't you think people wantto help and that's such a
beautiful way that people canhelp and money is helpful,
especially in this situation andI do think you're right.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
I think they did want to help and they did step in
and I've been able to relocate,live in a really cute townhome
in a safe neighborhood and justfeel a lot better about my
situation with my children here.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Do you think he became this way because he was
exposed, or the lack of control,or what do you think?
Or do you have even gone there?
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yeah, I haven't figured all of that out.
To be honest, I do know hewould.
He would talk about his firstexposure.
Was it like nine years old?
So?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
so there was that.
Well, it happened when I waslittle.
I can't help this, yeah, toblame it on that.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, I mean, that is part of it.
I don't know Something.
Something I've sharedpreviously is that he also has
mental illness, and so then Ithink it exasperated it and I
couldn't, I can't really tellyou all the reasons why, but
they're, they feed off of eachother somehow.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yeah, yeah, I just I find it fascinating.
I'm like, what is he thinking,right, like, why make this
harder than it needed to be?
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Why make it harder than it needed to be, and to me
it's like, if you're, you'reharming your child's mother by
something so strong you knowwith like a place to live that's
just so necessary yeah it'sharmful for the children too
yeah, and but I, I for sure, Imean for sure shame, right, so
much shame yeah so the inabilityto make it his fault, to accept
(20:32):
his responsibility, I think,focuses.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
He wants to blame it on you, so he's going to make
you suffer.
Yes, absolutely Lots of Darvo,you know you probably talked
about that with your audience,for sure.
In case, I'll just mention itagain yeah, say what Darvo
stands for.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, they deny, they accuse and then they reverse
the victim and the offender.
Your audience for sure, in caseI'll just mention it again, say
what darvo stands for.
Yeah, they deny, they accuseand then they reverse the victim
and the offender.
Yes, and it is a classic waythat they just don't take
accountability and make try tomake it look at least like yeah,
the victim is actually theperpetrator.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, and don't you think like, and we're like, oh
my gosh, maybe it is.
Maybe I did do something wrong,maybe I was mean this one time.
Maybe I didn't pick yourclothes up exactly how you
wanted them to and I didn't.
I forgot to do the laundry oneday and I didn't have dinner on
the table at five.
So, okay, let me try again,cause I was a stay at home mom,
so I stay-at-home mom for 26years.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, I think you're right, because really, the
partner, who is not theoffending spouse.
We're working on ourselves,we're like trying to be.
It was like I want to show up.
Well, I want to show up as mybest self.
I want to make repair, I wantto apologize for things that I
did you know?
I want to be my very best self,and so then, when it's like
(21:52):
they're finding all the littlethings, yeah, it sounds like you
started being aware like I needto get help before because, see
(22:13):
, I never had anyone tell me why.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I don't think I asked anyone actually like if I
should get divorced or not.
I just did it, but no one wouldhave said you're in an abusive
marriage to me.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, that's so hard right.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
So it sounds like you were getting help from before.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, At that point I would say I've been in recovery
since 2017.
Okay so so yeah, I've beengetting help for a while, but
before that you know but beforethat, you know, before that I
wouldn't tell anyone I I painteda really rosy picture and he
would do things like open my cardoor, yes, then he'd get in and
yell at me.
You know that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
So it was really intense, to where it it
sometimes looks good, you knowfor sure, it's family at church
with six cute kids and yeah yeah, did he live that life, a
religious life too.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
He did, yeah, and he still does.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
It is interesting.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
So he's still involved in church and that is
hard for you, that would be hardfor me.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I think it's confusing for me, but you know I
do want that for my children.
So overall I'm just really gladthat he does that.
But I just know for me, and noteven talking about him per se,
but if I'm living a double lifeI almost can't live with myself.
I can't function well.
It's like if there's somethingI need to make repair for or
(23:52):
repent of or whatever, I reallyneed to get that off of my chest
so to be able to live a doublelife consistently for years at a
time.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I don't know how people do that yeah, I think
they compartmentalize andthey've justified their behavior
.
And even if he's like, well,this happens since I was nine,
like okay, you're an adult nowand now it's time to fix it.
Right so your whole family iscrumbling and you're still
choosing the pornographyaddiction, because his addiction
(24:27):
was mostly in pornography, asfar as I know, as far as I know.
So, yeah, it's very fascinating, right, and I'm so glad that
you were able to get I mean, yougot help a lot sooner than I
did, but I think it's great soyou could build on HEAL and you
can teach your kids these thingsright.
Oh, totally, and you can teachyour kids these things right.
(24:49):
Oh, totally.
Do they know what their dad hasdone?
Or have you had to hide that ornot hide it, but are you not
able to talk to him about it?
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Well, one cool thing that I think he did was before
we were divorced.
He did sit them all down at onepoint and he was trying to work
on things and did say this iswhat I know, what I've struggled
with, and he did tell them allI've really hurt your mom at the
time and he took some ownershipfor it then until it escalated
(25:18):
more.
But and the other thing isregarding the trauma he was the
one who exposed them to somevery severe situations.
So a lot of it we do talk about, or we can talk about at least
openly, because you just can'thide what happened you know, and
(25:38):
that he's already talked toeverybody about it yeah, but
that's good, then that's good.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And I mean he did take some ownership right but it
did it kind of cancels it outwhen they like then do all the
other stuff.
It's like wait, it's notintense, right, yes, shoot.
So do you have a court date?
Do you know when your divorceis going to be finalized?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
It might be finalized August 1st We'll see.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Oh good, We'll see.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
There's some ongoing things, but you never know,
right.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, with kids I know it can be complicated and
many all that yeah for sure.
So tell us if people that arelistening to my podcast if they
want to get more informationabout what you do.
I'll, of course, put it all inthe show notes, but how can they
get in touch with you?
What's the best way to do that?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
yeah, probably through our platform.
So we've got ts12 and on, whichis trauma sensitive, 12 steps
anonymous and you have religion.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
I guess all anonymous things are religious, are they
or no?
Speaker 1 (26:42):
so they're not religious, they're spiritual.
They're spiritually basedthough so you get to bring any
religion that you would like tothe healing experience and we do
talk a lot about, in fact.
Can I focus on that for?
a minute yeah, because I do love12 steps a lot, but I have
found we know more now we can dobetter.
(27:03):
Yes, and so, as such, I feellike a lot of 12-step programs
were written on codependent andco-addict models.
So we wrote this on a, on acodependent trauma model, where
so codependence honors thatthere was like there's a
(27:24):
profound need and honors thatwhen we're trying to fix
relationships with people,that's normal.
Yes, that's normal, Instead ofsaying you're just co-addicted
or something you know, which canbe very destructive.
And so the other thing is we doit with a trauma model, which is
really cool because people canlook and see the three stages of
(27:47):
the trauma model we use aresafety and stabilization, grief
and mourning and integration andgrowth.
And the really cool thing isthat with, as they're working,
the steps, you can look and sayyou know what, right now I just
need safety and you can focus onthat aspect.
So, like a traditional stepfour can be very invalidating
(28:09):
for a trauma survivor, becausetraditional step fours are about
character defects.
We don't love that term.
People can eventually work atraditional step four in our
program just we'd call itsomething different, like
survival mechanisms, that kindof thing.
But but they can also work.
(28:30):
They can go in and we've gotlike a list on our website of
different suggestions ofinventories.
They can do things likeself-worth that would validate
that.
That would be like a safetyplan.
Recently I did one that Ireally loved that was a fear
inventory and was able to lookand say, oh, this is why I'm
feeling this distressed aboutthis and it was able to validate
(28:53):
and to ultimately move forwardin a better way, more healthy
way, more grounded way.
So it's really powerful in thatpeople come as they are and
we're very cautious with thelanguage.
Traditional 12 steps will havewords like sanity.
We're losing sanity.
(29:14):
Well, betrayed spouses you know, those who've experienced any
of the 4As feel crazy a lot ofthe time.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah, I used to think I was crazy.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I thinkI'm crazy.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
I know Me too Well, no like no, I was not crazy.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
That'm like.
Oh my gosh, I think I'm crazy,like I know Me too Well.
No, like, no, I was not crazy.
That was my gut telling me likeyou are right on and they're
trying to throw you off becausethey do not want to get caught,
right, yeah, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
And it's such a disorienting way to live, you
know.
Yeah so when we can validate.
Yeah, of course you're feelingthat way.
That's normal to feel that way,and what can we do to stay in
truth and what can we do to calmour nervous systems, because
it's so distressing when we'refeeling all the things like that
.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yes, I love that.
It sounds like it has lots morecompassion, right?
So much compassion,self-compassion is woven
throughout the entire program.
I love that and.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I really value that for myself, for my own healing.
I feel like when I could shiftinto self-compassion, my healing
took off in different ways thatit hadn't before.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, I agree.
I think that's so spot on.
And drop the judgment rightTotally.
Yeah, so true.
Well, I love that you're doingthis work Right there with you,
right yeah thank you.
We have different paths thatwe're doing, but I think there's
sadly a lot of people in thisworld that, whether it's
(30:43):
pornography or just abuse,addiction, adultery, abandonment
, all those things pornographyor just abuse, addiction,
adultery, abandonment, all thosethings people are suffering and
need a safe place to go.
And so I just love that and Idon't think I know.
When I got married in the 90s,there wasn't trauma, trauma.
Knowledge has really just beenmore prevalent in like 2010 and
(31:07):
on right, like some betrayaltrauma.
They didn't even have a namefor it, right, right.
And so I even I had done sometherapy and it's like are you
having enough sex?
And I'm like that's not theproblem.
Yes, sex life is not theproblem, I can guarantee that.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
That was me too.
I'm like I've tried all thethings you know, I just remember
thinking sex addiction is notgoing to be in my marriage.
If I can help it, you know I'mgoing to make sure, but uh, that
that backfired.
I think yeah, well, you didn'tknow like I didn't know.
I think we're naive.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
I, I don't know.
I'm glad I'm naive, like I likewho I am, like I like that.
I don't not super worldly.
I've learned a lot anddefinitely become more than I
was before, but yeah, I think wejust learn and grow and then
you have a heart like mine.
We want to help people.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Definitely yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Definitely yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
I love that we share that.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Yes, well, jenny, it's so nice to meet you.
Thank you so much for being onmy podcast, and we'll talk about
how to get all the informationto me.
But anyways, before we go.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Could I share the platforms Would?
Speaker 2 (32:19):
that be okay, yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
So you can contact us at ts12anonorg and you can find
a meeting there.
You can also buy the book whichthere's a link on ts12anon for
that.
You can go to herwingsunfoldorgand contact us there.
But you can also follow us onInstagram and we're
herwingsunfold on Instagram, butwe are also.
(32:43):
We just started a brand newpodcast to us at least, that's
called Relational Trauma SOS.
That addresses 4A behavior, andwe would love to have you join
us with that.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
So thank you, yeah, thank you for having us All
right, and I'll put all that inthe show notes just in case we
keep driving and you can't writethis down.
But anyways, all right, friends, thanks so much for listening.
If you like this podcast,please share it with your family
and friends and I will talk toyou next week.
If you want to learn how tolive happily even after, sign up
(33:16):
for my email at hello atlifecoachjen with one n dot com,
follow me on Instagram andFacebook at happily even after
coach.
Let's work together to createyour happily even after.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2
Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com