May 26, 2025 • 50 mins
What happens when the foundation of your marriage crumbles through betrayal? Jennifer Townsend knows this territory intimately. After 26 years of marriage punctuated by her husband's affairs, Jennifer discovered the transformative power of coaching that ultimately gave her the clarity and strength to rebuild her life.
The journey through betrayal trauma is unlike any other. Jennifer shares how she initially believed she could "think her way out" of the pain, and how she mistakenly carried the weight of both her own shame and her husband's. "I was surviving my life," she explains, describing the frozen state many betrayed spouses experience. This numbness becomes a coping mechanism when the reality feels too overwhelming to face.
Jennifer's perspective as both a survivor and a coach offers unique insights into the healing process. She challenges common misconceptions about betrayal recovery, particularly the idea that marriage counseling should be the first step. "Healing needs to be separate until you are healed enough," she explains, noting how trauma shuts down the cognitive part of your brain, making productive couples work nearly impossible in the early stages. This counterintuitive approach allows individuals to gain clarity before attempting to rebuild the relationship.
The most powerful revelation? Understanding that your partner's betrayal was never about you. This shift in perspective removes the burden of self-blame that many betrayed spouses carry. Jennifer now helps both men and women navigate this difficult terrain, teaching them how to establish boundaries, rebuild self-trust, and determine their own needs rather than focusing solely on the relationship.
Whether you're currently navigating betrayal or supporting someone who is, Jennifer's compassionate guidance offers a roadmap through the darkness. Her message is clear: healing is possible, and with the right support, you can move from merely surviving to genuinely thriving again. Take the first step toward your own healing by recognizing that you deserve support, regardless of what decisions lie ahead for your relationship.
Please follow me on instagram and facebook @happilyevenaftercoach and if you want to see what coaching is all about I offer a free 45 min. clarity call via zoom.
Email me: hello@lifecoachjen.com for any comments or questions.
Thanks for listening, please like and review as well as share with your family and friends.
My website is www.lifecoachjen.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey friends, welcome to today's podcast.
Today I'm doing something alittle different.
I was recently on a good friendof mine and fellow life coach
her podcast.
It's called Seasons of Joypodcast and you can find that
right along where my podcast isas well and her name is Jill
(00:20):
Pack and she is a life coach forwomen in the second half of
their life.
I met her about three years agoand we have just kind of
followed each other and we bothare huge Jodi Moore fans and so
we found ourselves in some ourfaith-based training for life
(00:40):
coaches as well as recently inCalifornia at a story learning
how to tell stories better thisconference a day conference we
did and so she asked me to be onher podcast.
So it's a little bit longerthan what I normally do, but we
just have a conversation and Italk about my story a little bit
(01:03):
and she has some great insightsand actually I had a few aha
moments during this podcast.
So I hope you enjoy and I willtalk to you next week.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
This is Jill Pack with the Seasons of Joy podcast.
This is episode number 153,entitled Happily Even After,
with Jennifer Townsend, and 53entitled Happily Even After with
Jennifer Townsend.
Are you a woman of faith who isstruggling to navigate your
current season of life?
Do you feel like life is justhappening to you instead of for
(01:38):
you?
My name is Jill Pack and I'm acertified faith-based life coach
and a member of the Church ofJesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints.
I want you to know that, nomatter your season or your
circumstance, it is possible tocreate a more joyful life, and I
would love to show you how.
Are you ready?
Let's go.
(02:00):
Hello, my friends, welcome tothis week's episode.
I'm so glad to have you and I'mlooking forward to sharing this
conversation that I hadrecently with fellow coach,
colleague and friend, jenniferTownsend.
Jennifer is a betrayal coachand she helps men and women heal
and rebuild after betrayal, andwhether this is your situation
(02:21):
or not, I think there's somereally good tips and thoughts
that might help you withsomething else you're struggling
with.
So give it a listen and here wego.
I'm so glad to have you, jen.
Would you just take a minuteand tell my audience a little
bit about you.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I have four kids my mom, my oldest daughter, is
married and she lives inOklahoma, and then my other
three children live with me.
I am divorced.
I was married for 26 years andthen I've been divorced now for
three years.
So getting you know used tothat, yeah, I'm a life coach,
(03:06):
which really saved me and I'msure we'll talk about that and I
love, I love coaching.
I love helping people.
I things I love.
I love fashion.
I like clothes.
I bizarrely love social mediaand I know you're so good at it.
Making real.
Um, I I love traveling.
(03:26):
I've traveled all over theworld with my family and I've
done a few trips on my own too.
I like love puzzles.
Getting divorced, I watch lotsof Netflix, which I call
everything Netflix, but lots ofyou know HBO, like all the
(03:47):
channels.
I have every streaming stationand I do puzzles at night, so
I'm waiting for my kids, I'lllike watch a show and do a
puzzle.
Oh, I love that.
Anyways, I prefer sunshine overwinter.
I'm really happy it's spring.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yes, it feels so good , doesn't it yes?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yes, I'm an only I only.
I'm an only daughter.
I have three brothers.
I do have a brother that passedaway about 11 years ago.
Now, you know, my parents aregetting older, so lots of life
changes, yeah a lot of lifechanges.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, I would definitely.
People aren't gonna see you.
But Jennifer's beautiful andshe, when she says she loves
fashion, you can tell she does,because she's always just all
put together, it's it's.
It's so fun to see what she'swearing.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Years ago I went to school, I got my degree at BYU
they don't even have this degreeanymore but in fashion
merchandising, yes, I wasdetermined to move to New York
and, you know, do something inthe fashion world and instead I
met my husband and got married.
And before that I actually did,I served a mission in Hong Kong
(04:56):
.
So I, you know, I was a little,I was older compared to the
average right girl gettingmarried.
I was 25 when I got married.
So I feel like nowadays that'skind of young, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
I was going to say now they are getting married.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
A lot of people are getting but back in the nineties
, like if I was like an old maidby the time.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
I was 35, it was wrong with you.
Yeah, it was kind of that timewhen people are like, um, if
you're not married, you might aswell serve a mission.
Yes, I don't know why, that wasthe mentality, but that was the
mentality.
That was the mentality.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Thank goodness that changed.
But yes, so I did.
I did a lot before I gotmarried and I really thought you
know, I for me, I was marryingthe one right.
Yeah, yeah, the guy that I wasgoing to spend forever with.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, well, and that's what I wanted to have you
on today, cause I know youcoach women that are going
through maybe a divorce, butaround the trail, this idea
around betrayal.
So I would love for you to telllisteners um, how did you find
coaching and you know a littlebit about who you work with.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, I.
So in 2018, I was gettingdivorced and I had found out my
husband was having anotheraffair.
That was not his first affair.
He had had other affairsearlier in our marriage, but of
course I was.
I forgave him.
I thought you know we couldfigure this out.
So you know, kind of I for suredidn't deal with it in a great
(06:33):
way.
They didn't even know aboutbetrayal, trauma back then and
all the things.
But I, in 2018, I was going toget divorced.
I had been a stay at home momand I decided maybe I needed to
get out of the house a littlebit.
So I got a job at a clothingstore and a friend there who
(06:54):
hired me my boss hired who hiredme.
She was like, do you listen topodcasts?
And at this time I had notlistened.
I never listened to a podcastand I hadn't listened to an
audio book.
I mean I just they weren't aspopular then.
And so she told me about JodiMoore's better than happy and so
(07:15):
I thought, all right, I'lllisten to it.
And I listened to every singlepodcast, whatever.
I don't know how many she haddone, probably like at least a
hundred by at that time, and Iwent and listened to all of them
and I was like I felt like asponge that was just like, oh my
gosh, I can think somethingdifferent.
(07:36):
Like I was so devastated and Ithought my life was over.
Um, you know, and I just likeall everything I heard just was
like truth bombs going on and I,um, during that time I actually
my former spouse and I wereconciled, so we didn't end up
(07:57):
getting divorced, and I thoughtI felt like just like a new
lease on life.
And I heard about coaching.
So I joined her program, Ihired myself a coach and for me,
what I started working onbizarrely it had nothing to do
with betrayal, but it was aboutmy body image, because I had
(08:18):
such a negative view of my bodyfrom my spouse having affairs,
from his comments through theyears, right, like I didn't look
a certain way, or, you know,having four babies takes a toll
on your body.
So I had such a negative selfimage about my body that I was
(08:38):
like driving myself crazy andthe thought that I could make
the number on the scale neutralwas like mind blowing.
I'm like there's no way.
But once, like that's reallywhat I hired a coach to help me,
like I didn't know I was hiringthem to help me with that.
But that's what I focused on,because I just hated my body so
(09:00):
much and I thought, well, if Ihate myself so much, how do I
expect my husband to love me ifI can't even love me?
And so anyways and of course Idid believe I was I had to fix
my marriage.
I really believed it was aboutme.
If I was different, if I wasbetter in some way, then my
(09:23):
husband wouldn't be having anaffair, and that's sadly how I
really believed that for a longtime.
So, anyway, so I found coachingand then, I think, just started
working on myself, just slowly,really focused.
I just started me gettinghealthy, wasn't really focused
on my marriage as much, startedme getting healthy.
(09:46):
I wasn't really focused on mymarriage as much.
And so in 20, I think in 2020,the pandemic my former spouse.
He was working from home and Ijust thought I had never even
listened to the life coachschool podcast for Castillo, but
I thought that's where Jodiwent.
I'm like I could be a coach, Icould help people, like if this
helped me so much, I want tohelp people.
So I did the life coach schooland I graduated, I think, in
(10:13):
like April 2021.
And my I during that time, Ithought we were working on my
marriage, like we were doing I,we decided to start a podcast
together, me and my formerspouse with someone else.
And when I graduated from thelife coach school and I thought
(10:34):
and I already knew when I wentinto this, I'm like no, I want
to help other women who haveexperienced betrayal, I'm like I
, I think I can do that, I wantto do that.
But I realized in well, in 2021, I was still healing from
betrayal, so I kind of like waslike, what am I doing?
(10:56):
How can I do this?
But I did.
I started my podcast.
I was determined.
I'm like I am going to this isgoing to work, no matter what.
Like I was convinced I wasgoing to make my marriage work.
I did not want to get divorced.
I loved my life.
I had a pretty amazing life.
I loved my kids.
They were all happy, like right, they were perceived happy,
(11:20):
everyone was just in a goodplace.
Like I loved my neighborhood, Iloved my house.
I did not want to get a divorce.
And so I was like, okay, maybeI can, you know, just continue
thinking thoughts, good thoughts, right, thinking my way out of
this and I.
It took me a year, another yearof doing my own work, but
(11:43):
realizing that wait a second,like I can't think my way out of
this and I also he's not goingto change.
So I think coaching gave me theskills and the tools to realize
this right.
And then I've been trained inmy nervous system and trauma and
(12:08):
some other things that havereally helped me with my own
healing, also help my clients.
But anyway, so it from 2022 tonow, 2021 to 2022, really that
year I think I knew in my heartmy marriage was going to end,
but I was.
(12:28):
I was just still trying to heal, right.
And then, of course, um, youknow, I was going to retreats.
I was trying all the things,all the things, but ultimately I
realized like no, this is hewants this and it was going to
be okay.
So we got divorced really quick, like in a month once we
(12:52):
decided it takes 30 days in Utah, like every state's different,
but we went to mediation.
He got divorced.
Um, you know, told our kids wasa very like anti climatic and
in my mind like, oh, you know,he could probably still come
over for dinner and like I thinkI just was still in the fog of
(13:15):
not wanting to accept thereality, like my favorite quote
I one of my favorite things I'velearned from life coaching is
like um, when you don't acceptreality, we only lose 100% of
the time.
Like it's fine, and I'm notgetting that quote exactly right
, but we like.
Learning to accept our realityis so important.
And you know, of course I getdivorced.
(13:36):
He's you know I call her thestraw that because he ended up
marrying her right Like another.
This is a whole other personright Than all the other ones.
But I just I thought you knowwhat it I?
I don't need to be, I don't, Idon't need that.
(13:58):
My kids were older, right, Idon't need to have them over for
dinner, like that was sohurtful for me, right, Like I
just was, I created boundaries,I learned boundaries, I all
those things that we teach ourclients right and help them
understand.
Like we're not going to changethem, but how do we want to
change and so anyway, so yeah,2022, I got divorced.
(14:22):
Eight weeks after that, mydaughter got married, which was
really hard.
I think I always dreamt of mydaughter getting married and I'm
like, talk about the worstcircumstance.
You know, it just was reallyuncomfortable and hard and but
we made it through and we'rereally, I think, definitely more
thriving now than ever before.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
And what do you think ?
That is why.
Why do you think you'rethriving?
Yeah, for sure, all the tools.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Like, yeah, he realizing that it was never
about me, his affair was neverabout me, understanding that my
thoughts are important, right,understanding that I can think
whatever I want, right?
I don't have to believe all thethings he believed about me,
like they were just his beliefs,like I don't have to believe
(15:13):
any of that.
I reject most of them, right?
I used to think I was bad atmany.
I'm like, actually I'm reallygood at many, right?
So I've just each littlethought that has come up, I've
just really worked deciding do Iwant to believe that anymore?
Do I want to do that?
And just because someone toldme I was a certain way, I don't
(15:33):
have to believe that.
Yeah, so, paying attention, howdo I want to feel, right?
What kind of wife or I'm not awife what kind of mom do I want
to be?
Like I love, I love the world'smom.
Like I've embraced that,because I'm like hey, guys,
sometimes I'm a great mom andsometimes I'm not, and that's
(15:54):
okay, yes, and it just has givenme so much more freedom.
I'm like why didn't I know this, you know, a long time ago?
I think it would have helped me, but I love, uh, you know, I
like that.
So just all these concepts thatI've learned, I've been able to
integrate in my life and justdecide whether I want to think
(16:14):
them anymore or not and justreally practice Right, I think
it takes practice.
People want it to be a quickfix.
Yeah, has to take lots ofpractice, yeah, repetition.
Yes, for sure yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, I love that.
It's such a beautiful story,jennifer, because it helps you
help your clients from a placeof experience, right, like
you've tried all these thingsthat you're showing them, that
you're teaching them and they'veworked for you, and so I think
that's so beautiful, that you'vedone the work in your own life
(16:51):
so that you can help otherpeople.
That's just, it's so beautiful.
And one thing I wanted to addwhen you were saying something
like what kind of wife do I wantto be?
And you said, well, I'm notactually a wife, well, but you
could also say, like, what kindof ex-wife do I want to be?
Or former spouse do I want tobe, and you said, well, I'm not
actually a wife, well, but youcould also say, like, what kind
of ex-wife do I want to be?
Yeah, or former spouse do Iwant to be?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
That is true, that's a really important question to
ask, right, yes, yeah, no, it is.
All those questions are good,like what kind of ex-wife do I
want to be?
And, yeah, I'm very intentionalabout you know who, how am I
going to show up?
And for me, but not everyone,right, people have to co-parent,
(17:33):
right, all the time, like Idon't really, I didn't really
have to do that because my kidswere older.
Yeah, but every now and againthere's an occasion, right, and
I just always think, yeah, howam I going to show up here?
Like I plan ahead of time.
I do a lot of planning ahead oftime, especially in situations
(17:54):
I know that are going to be hardor uncomfortable.
I don't have many, but there'speople that have on the daily.
I have a friend that probablythree times a week she has to
see her ex-husband.
So I'm like, okay, you know,what are you going to think?
How are you going to feel?
Where are you going to sit?
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Like you know, make a plan.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
So I think, that's been really valuable, just
learning awareness, like I thinkI've lived a lot of my life,
sadly, like numb and unaware.
I was just kind of, I was veryfrozen.
I was surviving my life and itmakes sense because I had so
much betrayal, trauma which Ididn't even understand that I
(18:39):
had that and so I'm stressingabout I went one time I was like
I probably I need to go to atherapist.
I went to a therapist therapist.
I remember telling him I'mstruggling holding socks and
that's the reason like I wasgoing there, but it had nothing
to do with the socks they had.
I was just frozen, like.
(19:00):
I just was like but that's theonly thing I could come up with
why I thought I needed therapy,which it sounds ridiculous, but
I understand it now that no,it's because I was frozen, I was
struggling doing anything, yeah, and so I think, um, being able
to wreck, being aware, likechoosing how I want to feel, and
(19:22):
it's okay to be angry, I think,especially religious women we
think it's wrong to be angry orwe have to forgive and forget or
we have to forgive and let themin our life.
Well, no, we can forgivesomeone and let them go.
Yes, a hundred percent.
Yeah, angry is good and a goodemotion, like sometimes we have
(19:44):
to be.
Of course you want to be angrywhen someone does something like
have an affair or a child.
Sometimes you want to be angry,but then under that anger is
the sadness.
I think a lot of times peopleget stuck as the victim in their
life, and I, for sure, wasstuck in my.
I was the victim.
I was in this victim mode butonce I became like, oh no, I can
(20:07):
be more empowered, I can choosethis on purpose, like that was
so much more empowering and itreally like catapulted me to a
different level that I thinkthat used to bother me or they
don't even affect me anymore.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Right, yeah, I love that.
I think you're right.
I think as women religiouswomen there is, I mean we're
taught in the scriptures to loveone another, right and and um.
But I think that oftentimesthat emotion is meant to teach
us something.
It's telling us something needsto change, whether it's us or
(20:48):
the situation or whatever it is.
It's just saying pay attentionto this thing.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
So I love that.
And anger.
I think people are like well,that means you're yelling.
You don't have to yell to feelangry, you just have to get the
emotion out of your body.
Yeah, you know, there's lots ofhealthy ways Like of course you
don't want to yell or hurtsomeone to get your anger out.
It's not a react, becausethat's reacting to your emotions
.
So, yeah, I mean that's anotherhuge one, like actually just
(21:16):
feeling my emotions.
I decided I'm an avoider.
For sure I avoid things and Iresist them.
Maybe if I don't pay attention,maybe if I don't cry, then I
won't really be that upset.
But it's like eventually itjust comes out.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Yeah, sooner or later , right, sooner or later.
And I've found in my own worklike just the letting the
emotions move through me is just, it's the coolest thing,
because then you realize theycan't hurt you and you aren't it
frees you up to experienceother things, other emotions.
(21:56):
But if you're just resistingthe anger, resisting the sadness
, it's hard to let room makeroom for anything else.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yes, yeah, and you can't feel sad.
If you don't feel, if youchoose not to feel sad, you
can't feel happy.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Well, numb, yeah, that's.
I know that's how I felt a lotof my life and I'm so sad, but
um, I mean, I didn't even knowthat that's right now, cause I'm
like oh, this is this feels I'mjust much more present and more
like very?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
aware of how I feel, yeah, but I also think like
there's value in that experience.
Not that you love it and wantto repeat it, but how you've
grown and your ability to feelat peace and content is
amplified, yes, because of whatyou experienced.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yes, In the other way , yeah, and you know we're put
on the earth to have experiencesLike no one is guaranteed a
free ticket and easy Like we'reall having hard.
This is just my heart right.
Some people have health issues.
We all have hard, yeah,sometimes we think, oh, that was
(23:13):
really hard, I probably notgonna have anything else hard.
No, it's always hard.
But the key is, can you movethrough it instead of get stuck
in it?
I think yeah, yeah, and we'relike be negative or like why me,
what's?
You know, what did I do todeserve this?
And like no, and life is unfair.
Like I think we get reallystuck.
I know when you know we getstuck on.
(23:36):
Well, this isn't fair, well,it's not that this is like the
wrong thing to say right, likethis is just, this is just the
way of it.
This is part of God's plan, iswe are all having trials.
That's how we grow.
If our life was easy which isthe Satan's plan, right, no one
would have free agency and wewould all just do the right,
(23:57):
make the right choices.
We wouldn't learn anything.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
No, and I don't think we would know what happiness
was.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
No, we wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
We wouldn't know what happiness or joy or peace or
comfort like we would.
We just would almost be numb,because we wouldn't have the
contrast to experience, toregulate our emotions and feel
them and process them.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
We're not reacting to them, we're not resisting them
or avoiding them.
We our trials, we can movethrough them much better and
they don't, you know.
(24:41):
I mean, I don't know, everytrial is different.
I've had lots.
I've had lots of things happento me and I always think like,
oh, maybe, maybe that's why you,maybe that's why I went to Hong
Kong and learned Cantonese,which is the one the hardest
languages in the world to learn.
I'm like I just learned that Icouldn't pass French, but you
(25:02):
did.
I learned Cantonese.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
I love that, I love that.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
So, as you work like, so would you say your primary
client, your typical client, issomeone that is going through
some kind of betrayal, set towork with them, yes, and I
originally like I was like I'llprobably just work with women,
but I actually work with a lotof men too and for me that feels
(25:28):
fine, like some women don'tlike to work with men, but I
love working with men just asmuch as women, because women
unfortunately have affairs aswell.
So my ideal client it really aclient.
Most of them are either goingthrough it you know right now
they've been through it but theynever healed Right.
(25:49):
So they like they're realizingthey're either they never healed
right, so they like they'rerealizing they're either
divorced or still married, andthey still.
It's been three, four or fiveyears and they still.
Because what people do, um,either, especially when they
stay married, they just pretendthey forgive and just sweep it
(26:09):
under the rug and decide, um it,you know I, I'm just going to
forgive him and it will go awayeventually, and it just doesn't.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yeah and so, um, most of my clients, some of them,
are divorced, so I don't reallycoach on divorce right Like I.
I know a lot about divorcecause I am divorced, but I
mostly want to help people healfrom betrayal, whether it was
it's going on right now or itwas in your past.
Because I think healing andwhen I say heal I think we live
(26:45):
we're healing all the time.
We have little hurts, you knowall the time from people and you
know all things we have to healfor, heal from and so, but to
be able to manage, so you're notconstantly, you know, feeling
like you're drowning, right,which people in betrayal feel
(27:07):
like they're drowning?
And I, most of my clients.
It's either emotional orphysical affair.
Pornography always plays intoit, but there's a lot.
There's plenty of other peoplethat are like pornography
experts, so I don't really focuson pornography.
Sometimes they're all.
They're all included allinterrelated right yeah, a lot
(27:30):
of people that are dealing justwith pornography in their
marriage and their people, youknow.
So for me it's, you know, theactual, the emotional affair and
or physical affair.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Yeah, so when you're working with your clients, men
or women, what would you say isthe biggest hurdle for them in
this journey of healing?
Like what?
What blocks them from?
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, well, I mean, there's a lot of things, I think
self-esteem is, your confidencegets like taken out.
You find out your spouse isconnecting with another person.
It's really hard, like somepeople can be like, oh, that's,
that's on them, that's not on me, but there's always a part of
(28:18):
you that you're not enough.
What's wrong with me?
How could this happen, right?
Why didn't?
I know, you know, especiallypeople that find out like for
years their spouse has beencheating on them and then it
gets discovered, right.
So there's so many layers ofbetrayal and it's not.
Even that is devastating, butit's the lying and the
(28:41):
gaslighting and the hiding of itthat is even more devastating.
Yeah, so I think trustingourselves, like how, if I didn't
notice this was happening, howI?
What's wrong with me?
Like, is my intuition off?
But chances are the thing iswe're, we're wired to trust our
(29:04):
spouse, right, or they didn'tgive us any reason until they,
they're not trustworthy anymore,right, right.
So I think those are for sureyour confidence.
Trust boundaries I mean mostpeople don't even discuss
boundaries in their marriage Alot of times, don't even know
(29:26):
how to make.
I didn't even know how to makea boundary.
But once I learned, my marriageended quickly because I was
like okay, I'm not, I don't wanta third person in my marriage.
So it was a lot.
It was easy for me?
Not, it was was not easy, but Icould clearly see it once.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
I was like yeah, it opened up a better view of what
was happening.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I was like, okay, yeah, and so yeah.
So I think those are the mainones.
I mean there's, there's just alot betrayal, is.
I mean, most of us don't knowhow to feel our emotions and
we're so angry and then we getmad at ourselves, we judge
ourselves for being angry and sothen we step that on, so we
(30:16):
have the and then the shame.
It's like I always justenvision it's like a black cloak
around you that just holds usdown with shame, because many
and this is what I did myhusband feels bad, bad.
You know, I'm so sorry I didthis.
Whatever, he has shame and I'mjust like well, let me carry
(30:37):
your shame.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I'm going to carry your shame, so you don't have to
feel shame.
And then I feel shame, and soI'm carrying the weight of his
choices and how I feel, and sothat happens a lot, right.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yeah, so interesting, because I think that, um, yeah,
we, we love this person, wewe've built a life with this
person and for that reality toshift right, it that's a, that's
a big blow.
And then to not I think it justto me it seems like a natural
(31:15):
response in people that I'vetalked with is that you blame
yourself in some way.
And you said something earlylike what was it?
Something about the way heviewed you?
You just knew, like, if youchange somehow, if you were
better somehow, if you weredifferent somehow, that would
(31:36):
fix everything.
And I find that fascinating,especially as women, and you
would know if men do this too.
But that that's where we go.
Yeah, it's so fascinating?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Yeah, it is.
I for sure think it's a morewoman issue.
Men men usually reactdifferently but they, yeah it is
.
I think they have a differentexperience.
But men people think like, oh,men just leave.
No, men still want to staymarried.
(32:09):
A lot of times I would say,most people come to me they want
to save their marriage and Itotally believe that is possible
If their spouse is taking fullaccountability, full ownership.
They're doing their work and Ialso a thing that I think I mean
(32:30):
.
People immediately think we needmarriage counseling, we've got
to go to a marriage therapist,save our marriage.
I disagree.
I've learned this becausethat's exactly what I did.
Oh, you know, I first did go domy own, got a therapist or
whatever.
But I think healing needs to beseparate and tell you are
(32:52):
healed enough, because rightwhen you go to marriage
counseling, you can't hear,you're still so hurt.
It's hard to hear what theother person is trying to say to
you yeah, so you're I call itlike the CEO.
Part of your brain just turnsoff and you can't even hear it,
and so so you have to be healingLike you have to be doing your
(33:12):
work, figuring out what's goingon, how you're feeling before
you can even come together, andI think people get stuck in well
, our marriage used to be thisway.
It's like no, you have to.
That is over.
Your old marriage is over, yeah, and I like your seasons right.
You're in a different seasonnow.
This is the season of we'rerebuilding our marriage, yeah,
(33:36):
and so for sure, that can happen, and I think it can even happen
with just one of you startingto heal, right, even if your
spouse had the affair.
If you, you start healing.
A lot of times people are like,well, I'm paying attention, if
my spouse is going to go totherapy, then I'll go to therapy
.
It's just the wrong way to lookat it.
(33:58):
I think it's like no, you needhelp.
And how can you start healing?
Because as you start healing,you can see better, you can,
you'll be able to, um know, like, okay, make better decisions.
Because when you initiallydiscover people either go to
fight, flight or freeze liketheir trauma, like immediately,
(34:20):
like people either want to runaway, uh, fight, meaning fight
for their marriage or theycompletely become frozen and
shut down and crawl in their bed, and so you have to be able to
get you know a little bit moreregulated, get your mind working
right or you can decide.
(34:42):
But I do believe marriages canum, survive and work together,
and especially if it's not apattern, for for sure it was a
pattern in my marriage.
I never saw the pattern untilafter I got divorced, but I can
see the pattern now.
So I?
But there are people, peoplemake mistakes, people have weak
(35:05):
moments, right, we're human.
So I think for sure you canwork and have a better marriage
than you did before becauseyou're connecting and
communicating.
But also, especially if you'relike, have the thought, which I
did, divorce is bad, divorce iswrong.
I can't get divorced.
I want my forever family to.
(35:27):
I think, consider what if?
What if you could thinksomething different, right?
What if divorce is the bestthing for you and your kids and
your family, right?
Yeah, for me.
I really leaned into that.
I finally was able to get there.
It took me 26 years to getthere, but I finally was like no
, this kid, this divorce isn'tthe worst thing to ever happen
(35:50):
to me.
The betrayals devastating, yeahso and staying stuck in that
pattern right in that cycle yeah, and thinking it was my fault
and trying to fix myself and, um, hating myself and you know,
and of course that showed upwith how a mom, what kind of mom
(36:12):
, I was, which is devastating tome right.
So now I've had to do lots ofrepair with my kids, but I'm
glad I can do that right.
I can say sorry and I can belike you know what?
I really sucked, I reallystruggled, I was hard.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
And it's okay, right.
So that's what I think is is isa beautiful piece.
No matter what we're, what kindof relationship we're working
on is.
Is that repair the ability toto just apologize, take
accountability and own our partand then move forward and have
(36:54):
real honest conversations?
I think that's something I'velearned over the last little
while is so many of us areafraid of the hard conversation.
Yes, Right, it feels so scary.
Yes, right, it feels so scary.
(37:16):
But what would life be if wecould, if we could hold space
for the uncomfortable thing thatit feels, right, that
discomfort, but what could wegain on?
the other side of thatconversation.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Yeah, I love Jodi's like the, about coaching right,
saying the whole truth.
What's the whole truth is thatI'm devastated and I love you,
but I don't want to be marriedto you anymore because this goes
against all my values, all mybeliefs, all my like.
Two things can be true, youknow, yeah, I love my husband
(37:47):
and I could also want to getdivorced, yeah, right, and so I
love with my kids.
I mean that that's been for me.
My greatest blessing is torecognize, because I used to get
so defensive, right, I wasalways defensive, and because I
just I was like I got to provethat he's wrong about me, right,
but he had a whole differentvision of me.
(38:12):
And I was wrong about himbecause I could only see his
good qualities, I was onlylooking at his good stuff.
He was only looking at mynegative, and I think that
happens a lot in marriages,especially when there's conflict
.
And so I loved the idea of,okay, what part of what they're
saying is true, even if it'sjust 5%.
(38:32):
And then, because a lot oftimes there is truth, right,
like you know you, I can't thinkof an example, but anyways, I
just so not to get so defensive,and now I don't get defensive
very often, and when I do, I'mlike, oh, what's going on for me
, like I will investigate, right, like what, what's?
(38:57):
Why was I defensive about that?
To be defensive about whateverit was.
So, yeah, and teaching my kids,like you know, I'm a human,
we're human, you're a human andreally connecting.
I think we've had some greatconversations because you,
they've had to learn a lot ofrotten things, hard things,
(39:20):
about their parents and aboutyou know, and I take ownership
because I was always trying toprotect, I thought I was
protecting them and our familyby you know, not, you know,
hiding what was really going on.
Right, it's really just puttingon this mask, but the reality,
once the reality came out andthe truth, then it's like okay,
(39:44):
we can't hide from this anymore.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Which sets us free, right, like, ultimately, even
though it's painful, it's whatsets us free being able to just
be honest, and I love what yousaid.
Like you were saying he onlysaw the negative in you and you
were being able to just behonest, and I love what you said
.
Like you were saying he onlysaw the negative in you and you
were only able to see thepositive in him.
Both of you weren't looking atthe humanity of the other person
(40:07):
, isn't that like both of youwere doing the same thing, but
yet it looked different.
Yeah, so interesting.
If someone's listening andthey're, they're going through
this, they're they're either inthe thick of it, um, and kind of
in that fight, fight or freezemode, or it's been a little bit
(40:31):
and they still are struggling.
What, what advice would youoffer them?
I'm going to put your, your, um, all your contact information
in the show notes so people canreach out to you.
I just think what you do is soimportant because there there
are people out there sufferingthat, that have gone through
similar things, that just needsomeone that can help them work
(40:53):
through this in in a healing way.
But what would you say to that,that woman or man that's
listening and they're in thatplace where you found yourself
Like what?
What can they take away fromthis conversation?
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Um, I mean, of course I have lots of thoughts, but
first of all, like just to havelots of love and compassion for
where you're at, like don'tjudge yourself.
I think we, we tend to go tojudgment, like I'm doing it
wrong.
There's not a right or wrongway to do this.
We, it's our first right.
Like, no one gives you a manual, you know, we don't know how to
(41:29):
.
How do you go through betrayalin a great way?
Um, but find someone.
You need at least um, oneconfidant, because what happens
I found it's what I did, rightIs I just held it in.
I had so much shame, and shamewants us to hide, right, so I
didn't tell, I didn't talk aboutit, I didn't tell people.
(41:52):
Now, you don't want to tell theworld, right?
Or even, I would suggest not afamily member, because then if
you do end up staying married,it just you then have to deal
with lots of other issues, right?
So a trusted friend, and Iwould suggest I know in our
church a lot of people go totheir bishop or their
(42:12):
ecclesiastical leader.
They're just not equipped todeal with betrayal like it just
it's not their job.
They're just not equipped todeal with betrayal Like it.
Just it's not their job.
They're spiritual leaders, notyour therapist, and so using
them for a therapist, I justthink is is not a great way to
go.
And so finding a coach,therapist, all of it, whatever
(42:34):
you can, so you can work throughthese issues, I think is so
important Making sure you'retaking care of yourself, right
You're.
If you can only get up, take ashower and get dressed for the
day, that's enough.
Just be really kind.
You don't have to.
(42:55):
I think I know in my past Iwould cut things out of my life,
like sometimes it's just toomuch.
Sometimes people either go intooverdrive and get super, stay,
super, super busy so they don'thave to feel anything, or they
shut down.
So try to at least continuemoving through.
(43:16):
And you don't have to decidetoday if you're staying married
or getting divorced, like youcan.
There's no rush, unless, ofcourse, you get divorce paper
right, like it just depends.
But if there's not a pressing,there's not a timetable, you
could.
You could wait a year or youdon't.
I just wouldn't put a time onmaking a decision.
(43:37):
You've got to get a littlehealthier to make a decision.
And um, yeah, I think um justlots of love and compassion,
lots of um, knowing that thereis help out there, and finding
someone that fits with you, thatyou feel comfortable with Um
(44:00):
and you, you know, feel like,okay, this could be helpful.
Right, I think, finding theright person and if you go to a
therapist or a coach and youdon't like them after a few
times, you can switch likeyou're allowed to.
You don't have to stay withsomeone, right.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
I love that.
I love that, like you can takeownership of of the healing
process.
Right, I love that.
I love that, like you can takeownership of of the healing
process.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Right, yeah, and I would say don't wait for your
husband.
If your husband's the one thathad the affair, don't decide.
I'm going to wait for him totake the lead.
No, you are allowed to go gethelp.
You're allowed to spend moneyon yourself for healing.
You're allowed to.
You don't have to wait for them, don't?
(44:42):
I think so many people lookoutward instead of inward and
just pay attention what do youneed?
And a lot of us women, we don'tknow what we need and so
figuring out okay, just can youname something.
That's why having someone helpyou, having a coach, help you,
you can help identify what myneeds are.
I met with one of my clientstoday and we went through her
(45:04):
whole her 10 needs.
I have a needs list in one ofmy courses and you know I was
just helping her identify eachthing.
What does she need in that andhow can she meet it?
So often we expect everyoneelse to meet our needs.
It's like, no, it's our job tomeet our needs yeah, that's so
(45:24):
good.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
I think that people are going to find this really
beneficial and I think, even ifyou aren't suffering but
betrayal, those things are stillvery worthwhile.
Think about right, likeespecially midlife women.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Yeah, like raising our kids We've.
We were just focused on ourkids needs and not even ours,
right yeah?
Speaker 2 (45:43):
So taking that time to to heal in other ways right
From other things and just Idon't know the more I've, you
know we use.
It's so easy to think that ifother people change we'll be
happy.
But when we take ownership andstart making like, just getting
self-reflective and and decidingwhat kind of person do I want
(46:04):
to be, what, what do I want tocreate in my life, and just
those simple things change ourrelationships without ever
having to change the otherperson.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Yeah, I always say, once you start doing a different
dance, the other person's goingto have to start learning your
new dance steps or they're goingto be like I don't want to
learn this dance.
You know you figure out like,and a lot of times people do
come with you.
You just have to be the leaderyou have to be, and I think
people are like well, I wasn'tthe one who did the betrayal,
(46:37):
right, that's okay, you stillare the one that is affected by
it, you still have that pain,and no marriage is perfect,
right.
We all have different thingsthat we do in a marriage that we
probably could work on.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Yeah Well, we've created that pattern of dance,
right, and so what pattern havewe contributed to the marriage
and can?
Is that worth looking at anddeciding?
Is this a pattern that I wantto keep, that I'm doing, and,
and what would life be like if Icould let that go?
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
That affect our relationship.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
So and feeling helps you not even when you're you end
up getting divorced.
I always think, like I'mdivorced, maybe I'll get
remarried, I don't know, butanything I'm learning now will
for sure help me oh, yeah, yeah,a hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
It helps us in every relationship yeah, with right.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
I mean yeah, yeah, so good family yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
So good.
Well, this has been so fun.
Jennifer, thank you forlistening and talking about this
, so just tell people where theycan find you.
I will put the links in theshow notes, but just let them
know where they can find you.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Yeah, I have.
So I have a weekly podcast aswell.
I'm called happily even after,with life coach Jen, and so
every Monday I drop an episodeand talk about different things.
And then I have a website,lifecoachjencom, and I have I'm
on Instagram, mostly at happilyeven after coach, and so that's
(48:18):
where you can find me.
And I have I'm going to put I'mgoing to send it to Jill a link
.
You can take a quiz and it'scalled how healed are you, and
it will you enter in youranswers and it will spit out how
healed you are, and so it's a,you know, just a fun tool to if
you're wondering, like curious,like wow, I thought I was healed
(48:39):
and actually I have some workto do.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Wonderful.
Well, thank you so much.
Oh yeah, thank you.
Thank you for tuning in to theseasons of joy podcast.
I hope you enjoyed today'sepisode and if you like what you
heard, don't forget tosubscribe, leave a review and
share with your friends andfamily.
If you want to learn more aboutme't forget to subscribe, leave
a review and share with yourfriends and family.
If you want to learn more aboutme or how to work with me, just
visit my website,wwwseasons-coachingcom, and have
(49:07):
a joyful week.
Hey friends, welcome to today's podcast.
Today I'm doing something alittle different.
I was recently on a good friendof mine and fellow life coach
her podcast.
It's called Seasons of Joypodcast and you can find that
right along where my podcast isas well and her name is Jill
(00:20):
Pack and she is a life coach forwomen in the second half of
their life.
I met her about three years agoand we have just kind of
followed each other and we bothare huge Jodi Moore fans and so
we found ourselves in some ourfaith-based training for life
(00:40):
coaches as well as recently inCalifornia at a story learning
how to tell stories better thisconference a day conference we
did and so she asked me to be onher podcast.
So it's a little bit longerthan what I normally do, but we
just have a conversation and Italk about my story a little bit
(01:03):
and she has some great insightsand actually I had a few aha
moments during this podcast.
So I hope you enjoy and I willtalk to you next week.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
This is Jill Pack with the Seasons of Joy podcast.
This is episode number 153,entitled Happily Even After,
with Jennifer Townsend, and 53entitled Happily Even After with
Jennifer Townsend.
Are you a woman of faith who isstruggling to navigate your
current season of life?
Do you feel like life is justhappening to you instead of for
(01:38):
you?
My name is Jill Pack and I'm acertified faith-based life coach
and a member of the Church ofJesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints.
I want you to know that, nomatter your season or your
circumstance, it is possible tocreate a more joyful life, and I
would love to show you how.
Are you ready?
Let's go.
(02:00):
Hello, my friends, welcome tothis week's episode.
I'm so glad to have you and I'mlooking forward to sharing this
conversation that I hadrecently with fellow coach,
colleague and friend, jenniferTownsend.
Jennifer is a betrayal coachand she helps men and women heal
and rebuild after betrayal, andwhether this is your situation
(02:21):
or not, I think there's somereally good tips and thoughts
that might help you withsomething else you're struggling
with.
So give it a listen and here wego.
I'm so glad to have you, jen.
Would you just take a minuteand tell my audience a little
bit about you.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I have four kids my mom, my oldest daughter, is
married and she lives inOklahoma, and then my other
three children live with me.
I am divorced.
I was married for 26 years andthen I've been divorced now for
three years.
So getting you know used tothat, yeah, I'm a life coach,
(03:06):
which really saved me and I'msure we'll talk about that and I
love, I love coaching.
I love helping people.
I things I love.
I love fashion.
I like clothes.
I bizarrely love social mediaand I know you're so good at it.
Making real.
Um, I I love traveling.
(03:26):
I've traveled all over theworld with my family and I've
done a few trips on my own too.
I like love puzzles.
Getting divorced, I watch lotsof Netflix, which I call
everything Netflix, but lots ofyou know HBO, like all the
(03:47):
channels.
I have every streaming stationand I do puzzles at night, so
I'm waiting for my kids, I'lllike watch a show and do a
puzzle.
Oh, I love that.
Anyways, I prefer sunshine overwinter.
I'm really happy it's spring.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yes, it feels so good , doesn't it yes?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yes, I'm an only I only.
I'm an only daughter.
I have three brothers.
I do have a brother that passedaway about 11 years ago.
Now, you know, my parents aregetting older, so lots of life
changes, yeah a lot of lifechanges.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, I would definitely.
People aren't gonna see you.
But Jennifer's beautiful andshe, when she says she loves
fashion, you can tell she does,because she's always just all
put together, it's it's.
It's so fun to see what she'swearing.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Years ago I went to school, I got my degree at BYU
they don't even have this degreeanymore but in fashion
merchandising, yes, I wasdetermined to move to New York
and, you know, do something inthe fashion world and instead I
met my husband and got married.
And before that I actually did,I served a mission in Hong Kong
(04:56):
.
So I, you know, I was a little,I was older compared to the
average right girl gettingmarried.
I was 25 when I got married.
So I feel like nowadays that'skind of young, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
I was going to say now they are getting married.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
A lot of people are getting but back in the nineties
, like if I was like an old maidby the time.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
I was 35, it was wrong with you.
Yeah, it was kind of that timewhen people are like, um, if
you're not married, you might aswell serve a mission.
Yes, I don't know why, that wasthe mentality, but that was the
mentality.
That was the mentality.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Thank goodness that changed.
But yes, so I did.
I did a lot before I gotmarried and I really thought you
know, I for me, I was marryingthe one right.
Yeah, yeah, the guy that I wasgoing to spend forever with.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, well, and that's what I wanted to have you
on today, cause I know youcoach women that are going
through maybe a divorce, butaround the trail, this idea
around betrayal.
So I would love for you to telllisteners um, how did you find
coaching and you know a littlebit about who you work with.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, I.
So in 2018, I was gettingdivorced and I had found out my
husband was having anotheraffair.
That was not his first affair.
He had had other affairsearlier in our marriage, but of
course I was.
I forgave him.
I thought you know we couldfigure this out.
So you know, kind of I for suredidn't deal with it in a great
(06:33):
way.
They didn't even know aboutbetrayal, trauma back then and
all the things.
But I, in 2018, I was going toget divorced.
I had been a stay at home momand I decided maybe I needed to
get out of the house a littlebit.
So I got a job at a clothingstore and a friend there who
(06:54):
hired me my boss hired who hiredme.
She was like, do you listen topodcasts?
And at this time I had notlistened.
I never listened to a podcastand I hadn't listened to an
audio book.
I mean I just they weren't aspopular then.
And so she told me about JodiMoore's better than happy and so
(07:15):
I thought, all right, I'lllisten to it.
And I listened to every singlepodcast, whatever.
I don't know how many she haddone, probably like at least a
hundred by at that time, and Iwent and listened to all of them
and I was like I felt like asponge that was just like, oh my
gosh, I can think somethingdifferent.
(07:36):
Like I was so devastated and Ithought my life was over.
Um, you know, and I just likeall everything I heard just was
like truth bombs going on and I,um, during that time I actually
my former spouse and I wereconciled, so we didn't end up
(07:57):
getting divorced, and I thoughtI felt like just like a new
lease on life.
And I heard about coaching.
So I joined her program, Ihired myself a coach and for me,
what I started working onbizarrely it had nothing to do
with betrayal, but it was aboutmy body image, because I had
(08:18):
such a negative view of my bodyfrom my spouse having affairs,
from his comments through theyears, right, like I didn't look
a certain way, or, you know,having four babies takes a toll
on your body.
So I had such a negative selfimage about my body that I was
(08:38):
like driving myself crazy andthe thought that I could make
the number on the scale neutralwas like mind blowing.
I'm like there's no way.
But once, like that's reallywhat I hired a coach to help me,
like I didn't know I was hiringthem to help me with that.
But that's what I focused on,because I just hated my body so
(09:00):
much and I thought, well, if Ihate myself so much, how do I
expect my husband to love me ifI can't even love me?
And so anyways and of course Idid believe I was I had to fix
my marriage.
I really believed it was aboutme.
If I was different, if I wasbetter in some way, then my
(09:23):
husband wouldn't be having anaffair, and that's sadly how I
really believed that for a longtime.
So, anyway, so I found coachingand then, I think, just started
working on myself, just slowly,really focused.
I just started me gettinghealthy, wasn't really focused
on my marriage as much, startedme getting healthy.
(09:46):
I wasn't really focused on mymarriage as much.
And so in 20, I think in 2020,the pandemic my former spouse.
He was working from home and Ijust thought I had never even
listened to the life coachschool podcast for Castillo, but
I thought that's where Jodiwent.
I'm like I could be a coach, Icould help people, like if this
helped me so much, I want tohelp people.
So I did the life coach schooland I graduated, I think, in
(10:13):
like April 2021.
And my I during that time, Ithought we were working on my
marriage, like we were doing I,we decided to start a podcast
together, me and my formerspouse with someone else.
And when I graduated from thelife coach school and I thought
(10:34):
and I already knew when I wentinto this, I'm like no, I want
to help other women who haveexperienced betrayal, I'm like I
, I think I can do that, I wantto do that.
But I realized in well, in 2021, I was still healing from
betrayal, so I kind of like waslike, what am I doing?
(10:56):
How can I do this?
But I did.
I started my podcast.
I was determined.
I'm like I am going to this isgoing to work, no matter what.
Like I was convinced I wasgoing to make my marriage work.
I did not want to get divorced.
I loved my life.
I had a pretty amazing life.
I loved my kids.
They were all happy, like right, they were perceived happy,
(11:20):
everyone was just in a goodplace.
Like I loved my neighborhood, Iloved my house.
I did not want to get a divorce.
And so I was like, okay, maybeI can, you know, just continue
thinking thoughts, good thoughts, right, thinking my way out of
this and I.
It took me a year, another yearof doing my own work, but
(11:43):
realizing that wait a second,like I can't think my way out of
this and I also he's not goingto change.
So I think coaching gave me theskills and the tools to realize
this right.
And then I've been trained inmy nervous system and trauma and
(12:08):
some other things that havereally helped me with my own
healing, also help my clients.
But anyway, so it from 2022 tonow, 2021 to 2022, really that
year I think I knew in my heartmy marriage was going to end,
but I was.
(12:28):
I was just still trying to heal, right.
And then, of course, um, youknow, I was going to retreats.
I was trying all the things,all the things, but ultimately I
realized like no, this is hewants this and it was going to
be okay.
So we got divorced really quick, like in a month once we
(12:52):
decided it takes 30 days in Utah, like every state's different,
but we went to mediation.
He got divorced.
Um, you know, told our kids wasa very like anti climatic and
in my mind like, oh, you know,he could probably still come
over for dinner and like I thinkI just was still in the fog of
(13:15):
not wanting to accept thereality, like my favorite quote
I one of my favorite things I'velearned from life coaching is
like um, when you don't acceptreality, we only lose 100% of
the time.
Like it's fine, and I'm notgetting that quote exactly right
, but we like.
Learning to accept our realityis so important.
And you know, of course I getdivorced.
(13:36):
He's you know I call her thestraw that because he ended up
marrying her right Like another.
This is a whole other personright Than all the other ones.
But I just I thought you knowwhat it I?
I don't need to be, I don't, Idon't need that.
(13:58):
My kids were older, right, Idon't need to have them over for
dinner, like that was sohurtful for me, right, Like I
just was, I created boundaries,I learned boundaries, I all
those things that we teach ourclients right and help them
understand.
Like we're not going to changethem, but how do we want to
change and so anyway, so yeah,2022, I got divorced.
(14:22):
Eight weeks after that, mydaughter got married, which was
really hard.
I think I always dreamt of mydaughter getting married and I'm
like, talk about the worstcircumstance.
You know, it just was reallyuncomfortable and hard and but
we made it through and we'rereally, I think, definitely more
thriving now than ever before.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
And what do you think ?
That is why.
Why do you think you'rethriving?
Yeah, for sure, all the tools.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Like, yeah, he realizing that it was never
about me, his affair was neverabout me, understanding that my
thoughts are important, right,understanding that I can think
whatever I want, right?
I don't have to believe all thethings he believed about me,
like they were just his beliefs,like I don't have to believe
(15:13):
any of that.
I reject most of them, right?
I used to think I was bad atmany.
I'm like, actually I'm reallygood at many, right?
So I've just each littlethought that has come up, I've
just really worked deciding do Iwant to believe that anymore?
Do I want to do that?
And just because someone toldme I was a certain way, I don't
(15:33):
have to believe that.
Yeah, so, paying attention, howdo I want to feel, right?
What kind of wife or I'm not awife what kind of mom do I want
to be?
Like I love, I love the world'smom.
Like I've embraced that,because I'm like hey, guys,
sometimes I'm a great mom andsometimes I'm not, and that's
(15:54):
okay, yes, and it just has givenme so much more freedom.
I'm like why didn't I know this, you know, a long time ago?
I think it would have helped me, but I love, uh, you know, I
like that.
So just all these concepts thatI've learned, I've been able to
integrate in my life and justdecide whether I want to think
(16:14):
them anymore or not and justreally practice Right, I think
it takes practice.
People want it to be a quickfix.
Yeah, has to take lots ofpractice, yeah, repetition.
Yes, for sure yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, I love that.
It's such a beautiful story,jennifer, because it helps you
help your clients from a placeof experience, right, like
you've tried all these thingsthat you're showing them, that
you're teaching them and they'veworked for you, and so I think
that's so beautiful, that you'vedone the work in your own life
(16:51):
so that you can help otherpeople.
That's just, it's so beautiful.
And one thing I wanted to addwhen you were saying something
like what kind of wife do I wantto be?
And you said, well, I'm notactually a wife, well, but you
could also say, like, what kindof ex-wife do I want to be?
Or former spouse do I want tobe, and you said, well, I'm not
actually a wife, well, but youcould also say, like, what kind
of ex-wife do I want to be?
Yeah, or former spouse do Iwant to be?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
That is true, that's a really important question to
ask, right, yes, yeah, no, it is.
All those questions are good,like what kind of ex-wife do I
want to be?
And, yeah, I'm very intentionalabout you know who, how am I
going to show up?
And for me, but not everyone,right, people have to co-parent,
(17:33):
right, all the time, like Idon't really, I didn't really
have to do that because my kidswere older.
Yeah, but every now and againthere's an occasion, right, and
I just always think, yeah, howam I going to show up here?
Like I plan ahead of time.
I do a lot of planning ahead oftime, especially in situations
(17:54):
I know that are going to be hardor uncomfortable.
I don't have many, but there'speople that have on the daily.
I have a friend that probablythree times a week she has to
see her ex-husband.
So I'm like, okay, you know,what are you going to think?
How are you going to feel?
Where are you going to sit?
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Like you know, make a plan.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
So I think, that's been really valuable, just
learning awareness, like I thinkI've lived a lot of my life,
sadly, like numb and unaware.
I was just kind of, I was veryfrozen.
I was surviving my life and itmakes sense because I had so
much betrayal, trauma which Ididn't even understand that I
(18:39):
had that and so I'm stressingabout I went one time I was like
I probably I need to go to atherapist.
I went to a therapist therapist.
I remember telling him I'mstruggling holding socks and
that's the reason like I wasgoing there, but it had nothing
to do with the socks they had.
I was just frozen, like.
(19:00):
I just was like but that's theonly thing I could come up with
why I thought I needed therapy,which it sounds ridiculous, but
I understand it now that no,it's because I was frozen, I was
struggling doing anything, yeah, and so I think, um, being able
to wreck, being aware, likechoosing how I want to feel, and
(19:22):
it's okay to be angry, I think,especially religious women we
think it's wrong to be angry orwe have to forgive and forget or
we have to forgive and let themin our life.
Well, no, we can forgivesomeone and let them go.
Yes, a hundred percent.
Yeah, angry is good and a goodemotion, like sometimes we have
(19:44):
to be.
Of course you want to be angrywhen someone does something like
have an affair or a child.
Sometimes you want to be angry,but then under that anger is
the sadness.
I think a lot of times peopleget stuck as the victim in their
life, and I, for sure, wasstuck in my.
I was the victim.
I was in this victim mode butonce I became like, oh no, I can
(20:07):
be more empowered, I can choosethis on purpose, like that was
so much more empowering and itreally like catapulted me to a
different level that I thinkthat used to bother me or they
don't even affect me anymore.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Right, yeah, I love that.
I think you're right.
I think as women religiouswomen there is, I mean we're
taught in the scriptures to loveone another, right and and um.
But I think that oftentimesthat emotion is meant to teach
us something.
It's telling us something needsto change, whether it's us or
(20:48):
the situation or whatever it is.
It's just saying pay attentionto this thing.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
So I love that.
And anger.
I think people are like well,that means you're yelling.
You don't have to yell to feelangry, you just have to get the
emotion out of your body.
Yeah, you know, there's lots ofhealthy ways Like of course you
don't want to yell or hurtsomeone to get your anger out.
It's not a react, becausethat's reacting to your emotions
.
So, yeah, I mean that's anotherhuge one, like actually just
(21:16):
feeling my emotions.
I decided I'm an avoider.
For sure I avoid things and Iresist them.
Maybe if I don't pay attention,maybe if I don't cry, then I
won't really be that upset.
But it's like eventually itjust comes out.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Yeah, sooner or later , right, sooner or later.
And I've found in my own worklike just the letting the
emotions move through me is just, it's the coolest thing,
because then you realize theycan't hurt you and you aren't it
frees you up to experienceother things, other emotions.
(21:56):
But if you're just resistingthe anger, resisting the sadness
, it's hard to let room makeroom for anything else.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yes, yeah, and you can't feel sad.
If you don't feel, if youchoose not to feel sad, you
can't feel happy.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Well, numb, yeah, that's.
I know that's how I felt a lotof my life and I'm so sad, but
um, I mean, I didn't even knowthat that's right now, cause I'm
like oh, this is this feels I'mjust much more present and more
like very?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
aware of how I feel, yeah, but I also think like
there's value in that experience.
Not that you love it and wantto repeat it, but how you've
grown and your ability to feelat peace and content is
amplified, yes, because of whatyou experienced.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yes, In the other way , yeah, and you know we're put
on the earth to have experiencesLike no one is guaranteed a
free ticket and easy Like we'reall having hard.
This is just my heart right.
Some people have health issues.
We all have hard, yeah,sometimes we think, oh, that was
(23:13):
really hard, I probably notgonna have anything else hard.
No, it's always hard.
But the key is, can you movethrough it instead of get stuck
in it?
I think yeah, yeah, and we'relike be negative or like why me,
what's?
You know, what did I do todeserve this?
And like no, and life is unfair.
Like I think we get reallystuck.
I know when you know we getstuck on.
(23:36):
Well, this isn't fair, well,it's not that this is like the
wrong thing to say right, likethis is just, this is just the
way of it.
This is part of God's plan, iswe are all having trials.
That's how we grow.
If our life was easy which isthe Satan's plan, right, no one
would have free agency and wewould all just do the right,
(23:57):
make the right choices.
We wouldn't learn anything.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
No, and I don't think we would know what happiness
was.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
No, we wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
We wouldn't know what happiness or joy or peace or
comfort like we would.
We just would almost be numb,because we wouldn't have the
contrast to experience, toregulate our emotions and feel
them and process them.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
We're not reacting to them, we're not resisting them
or avoiding them.
We our trials, we can movethrough them much better and
they don't, you know.
(24:41):
I mean, I don't know, everytrial is different.
I've had lots.
I've had lots of things happento me and I always think like,
oh, maybe, maybe that's why you,maybe that's why I went to Hong
Kong and learned Cantonese,which is the one the hardest
languages in the world to learn.
I'm like I just learned that Icouldn't pass French, but you
(25:02):
did.
I learned Cantonese.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
I love that, I love that.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
So, as you work like, so would you say your primary
client, your typical client, issomeone that is going through
some kind of betrayal, set towork with them, yes, and I
originally like I was like I'llprobably just work with women,
but I actually work with a lotof men too and for me that feels
(25:28):
fine, like some women don'tlike to work with men, but I
love working with men just asmuch as women, because women
unfortunately have affairs aswell.
So my ideal client it really aclient.
Most of them are either goingthrough it you know right now
they've been through it but theynever healed Right.
(25:49):
So they like they're realizingthey're either they never healed
right, so they like they'rerealizing they're either
divorced or still married, andthey still.
It's been three, four or fiveyears and they still.
Because what people do, um,either, especially when they
stay married, they just pretendthey forgive and just sweep it
(26:09):
under the rug and decide, um it,you know I, I'm just going to
forgive him and it will go awayeventually, and it just doesn't.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yeah and so, um, most of my clients, some of them,
are divorced, so I don't reallycoach on divorce right Like I.
I know a lot about divorcecause I am divorced, but I
mostly want to help people healfrom betrayal, whether it was
it's going on right now or itwas in your past.
Because I think healing andwhen I say heal I think we live
(26:45):
we're healing all the time.
We have little hurts, you knowall the time from people and you
know all things we have to healfor, heal from and so, but to
be able to manage, so you're notconstantly, you know, feeling
like you're drowning, right,which people in betrayal feel
(27:07):
like they're drowning?
And I, most of my clients.
It's either emotional orphysical affair.
Pornography always plays intoit, but there's a lot.
There's plenty of other peoplethat are like pornography
experts, so I don't really focuson pornography.
Sometimes they're all.
They're all included allinterrelated right yeah, a lot
(27:30):
of people that are dealing justwith pornography in their
marriage and their people, youknow.
So for me it's, you know, theactual, the emotional affair and
or physical affair.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Yeah, so when you're working with your clients, men
or women, what would you say isthe biggest hurdle for them in
this journey of healing?
Like what?
What blocks them from?
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, well, I mean, there's a lot of things, I think
self-esteem is, your confidencegets like taken out.
You find out your spouse isconnecting with another person.
It's really hard, like somepeople can be like, oh, that's,
that's on them, that's not on me, but there's always a part of
(28:18):
you that you're not enough.
What's wrong with me?
How could this happen, right?
Why didn't?
I know, you know, especiallypeople that find out like for
years their spouse has beencheating on them and then it
gets discovered, right.
So there's so many layers ofbetrayal and it's not.
Even that is devastating, butit's the lying and the
(28:41):
gaslighting and the hiding of itthat is even more devastating.
Yeah, so I think trustingourselves, like how, if I didn't
notice this was happening, howI?
What's wrong with me?
Like, is my intuition off?
But chances are the thing iswe're, we're wired to trust our
(29:04):
spouse, right, or they didn'tgive us any reason until they,
they're not trustworthy anymore,right, right.
So I think those are for sureyour confidence.
Trust boundaries I mean mostpeople don't even discuss
boundaries in their marriage Alot of times, don't even know
(29:26):
how to make.
I didn't even know how to makea boundary.
But once I learned, my marriageended quickly because I was
like okay, I'm not, I don't wanta third person in my marriage.
So it was a lot.
It was easy for me?
Not, it was was not easy, but Icould clearly see it once.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
I was like yeah, it opened up a better view of what
was happening.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I was like, okay, yeah, and so yeah.
So I think those are the mainones.
I mean there's, there's just alot betrayal, is.
I mean, most of us don't knowhow to feel our emotions and
we're so angry and then we getmad at ourselves, we judge
ourselves for being angry and sothen we step that on, so we
(30:16):
have the and then the shame.
It's like I always justenvision it's like a black cloak
around you that just holds usdown with shame, because many
and this is what I did myhusband feels bad, bad.
You know, I'm so sorry I didthis.
Whatever, he has shame and I'mjust like well, let me carry
(30:37):
your shame.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I'm going to carry your shame, so you don't have to
feel shame.
And then I feel shame, and soI'm carrying the weight of his
choices and how I feel, and sothat happens a lot, right.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yeah, so interesting, because I think that, um, yeah,
we, we love this person, wewe've built a life with this
person and for that reality toshift right, it that's a, that's
a big blow.
And then to not I think it justto me it seems like a natural
(31:15):
response in people that I'vetalked with is that you blame
yourself in some way.
And you said something earlylike what was it?
Something about the way heviewed you?
You just knew, like, if youchange somehow, if you were
better somehow, if you weredifferent somehow, that would
(31:36):
fix everything.
And I find that fascinating,especially as women, and you
would know if men do this too.
But that that's where we go.
Yeah, it's so fascinating?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Yeah, it is.
I for sure think it's a morewoman issue.
Men men usually reactdifferently but they, yeah it is
.
I think they have a differentexperience.
But men people think like, oh,men just leave.
No, men still want to staymarried.
(32:09):
A lot of times I would say,most people come to me they want
to save their marriage and Itotally believe that is possible
If their spouse is taking fullaccountability, full ownership.
They're doing their work and Ialso a thing that I think I mean
(32:30):
.
People immediately think we needmarriage counseling, we've got
to go to a marriage therapist,save our marriage.
I disagree.
I've learned this becausethat's exactly what I did.
Oh, you know, I first did go domy own, got a therapist or
whatever.
But I think healing needs to beseparate and tell you are
(32:52):
healed enough, because rightwhen you go to marriage
counseling, you can't hear,you're still so hurt.
It's hard to hear what theother person is trying to say to
you yeah, so you're I call itlike the CEO.
Part of your brain just turnsoff and you can't even hear it,
and so so you have to be healingLike you have to be doing your
(33:12):
work, figuring out what's goingon, how you're feeling before
you can even come together, andI think people get stuck in well
, our marriage used to be thisway.
It's like no, you have to.
That is over.
Your old marriage is over, yeah, and I like your seasons right.
You're in a different seasonnow.
This is the season of we'rerebuilding our marriage, yeah,
(33:36):
and so for sure, that can happen, and I think it can even happen
with just one of you startingto heal, right, even if your
spouse had the affair.
If you, you start healing.
A lot of times people are like,well, I'm paying attention, if
my spouse is going to go totherapy, then I'll go to therapy
.
It's just the wrong way to lookat it.
(33:58):
I think it's like no, you needhelp.
And how can you start healing?
Because as you start healing,you can see better, you can,
you'll be able to, um know, like, okay, make better decisions.
Because when you initiallydiscover people either go to
fight, flight or freeze liketheir trauma, like immediately,
(34:20):
like people either want to runaway, uh, fight, meaning fight
for their marriage or theycompletely become frozen and
shut down and crawl in their bed, and so you have to be able to
get you know a little bit moreregulated, get your mind working
right or you can decide.
(34:42):
But I do believe marriages canum, survive and work together,
and especially if it's not apattern, for for sure it was a
pattern in my marriage.
I never saw the pattern untilafter I got divorced, but I can
see the pattern now.
So I?
But there are people, peoplemake mistakes, people have weak
(35:05):
moments, right, we're human.
So I think for sure you canwork and have a better marriage
than you did before becauseyou're connecting and
communicating.
But also, especially if you'relike, have the thought, which I
did, divorce is bad, divorce iswrong.
I can't get divorced.
I want my forever family to.
(35:27):
I think, consider what if?
What if you could thinksomething different, right?
What if divorce is the bestthing for you and your kids and
your family, right?
Yeah, for me.
I really leaned into that.
I finally was able to get there.
It took me 26 years to getthere, but I finally was like no
, this kid, this divorce isn'tthe worst thing to ever happen
(35:50):
to me.
The betrayals devastating, yeahso and staying stuck in that
pattern right in that cycle yeah, and thinking it was my fault
and trying to fix myself and, um, hating myself and you know,
and of course that showed upwith how a mom, what kind of mom
(36:12):
, I was, which is devastating tome right.
So now I've had to do lots ofrepair with my kids, but I'm
glad I can do that right.
I can say sorry and I can belike you know what?
I really sucked, I reallystruggled, I was hard.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
And it's okay, right.
So that's what I think is is isa beautiful piece.
No matter what we're, what kindof relationship we're working
on is.
Is that repair the ability toto just apologize, take
accountability and own our partand then move forward and have
(36:54):
real honest conversations?
I think that's something I'velearned over the last little
while is so many of us areafraid of the hard conversation.
Yes, Right, it feels so scary.
Yes, right, it feels so scary.
(37:16):
But what would life be if wecould, if we could hold space
for the uncomfortable thing thatit feels, right, that
discomfort, but what could wegain on?
the other side of thatconversation.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Yeah, I love Jodi's like the, about coaching right,
saying the whole truth.
What's the whole truth is thatI'm devastated and I love you,
but I don't want to be marriedto you anymore because this goes
against all my values, all mybeliefs, all my like.
Two things can be true, youknow, yeah, I love my husband
(37:47):
and I could also want to getdivorced, yeah, right, and so I
love with my kids.
I mean that that's been for me.
My greatest blessing is torecognize, because I used to get
so defensive, right, I wasalways defensive, and because I
just I was like I got to provethat he's wrong about me, right,
but he had a whole differentvision of me.
(38:12):
And I was wrong about himbecause I could only see his
good qualities, I was onlylooking at his good stuff.
He was only looking at mynegative, and I think that
happens a lot in marriages,especially when there's conflict
.
And so I loved the idea of,okay, what part of what they're
saying is true, even if it'sjust 5%.
(38:32):
And then, because a lot oftimes there is truth, right,
like you know you, I can't thinkof an example, but anyways, I
just so not to get so defensive,and now I don't get defensive
very often, and when I do, I'mlike, oh, what's going on for me
, like I will investigate, right, like what, what's?
(38:57):
Why was I defensive about that?
To be defensive about whateverit was.
So, yeah, and teaching my kids,like you know, I'm a human,
we're human, you're a human andreally connecting.
I think we've had some greatconversations because you,
they've had to learn a lot ofrotten things, hard things,
(39:20):
about their parents and aboutyou know, and I take ownership
because I was always trying toprotect, I thought I was
protecting them and our familyby you know, not, you know,
hiding what was really going on.
Right, it's really just puttingon this mask, but the reality,
once the reality came out andthe truth, then it's like okay,
(39:44):
we can't hide from this anymore.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Which sets us free, right, like, ultimately, even
though it's painful, it's whatsets us free being able to just
be honest, and I love what yousaid.
Like you were saying he onlysaw the negative in you and you
were being able to just behonest, and I love what you said
.
Like you were saying he onlysaw the negative in you and you
were only able to see thepositive in him.
Both of you weren't looking atthe humanity of the other person
(40:07):
, isn't that like both of youwere doing the same thing, but
yet it looked different.
Yeah, so interesting.
If someone's listening andthey're, they're going through
this, they're they're either inthe thick of it, um, and kind of
in that fight, fight or freezemode, or it's been a little bit
(40:31):
and they still are struggling.
What, what advice would youoffer them?
I'm going to put your, your, um, all your contact information
in the show notes so people canreach out to you.
I just think what you do is soimportant because there there
are people out there sufferingthat, that have gone through
similar things, that just needsomeone that can help them work
(40:53):
through this in in a healing way.
But what would you say to that,that woman or man that's
listening and they're in thatplace where you found yourself
Like what?
What can they take away fromthis conversation?
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Um, I mean, of course I have lots of thoughts, but
first of all, like just to havelots of love and compassion for
where you're at, like don'tjudge yourself.
I think we, we tend to go tojudgment, like I'm doing it
wrong.
There's not a right or wrongway to do this.
We, it's our first right.
Like, no one gives you a manual, you know, we don't know how to
(41:29):
.
How do you go through betrayalin a great way?
Um, but find someone.
You need at least um, oneconfidant, because what happens
I found it's what I did, rightIs I just held it in.
I had so much shame, and shamewants us to hide, right, so I
didn't tell, I didn't talk aboutit, I didn't tell people.
(41:52):
Now, you don't want to tell theworld, right?
Or even, I would suggest not afamily member, because then if
you do end up staying married,it just you then have to deal
with lots of other issues, right?
So a trusted friend, and Iwould suggest I know in our
church a lot of people go totheir bishop or their
(42:12):
ecclesiastical leader.
They're just not equipped todeal with betrayal like it just
it's not their job.
They're just not equipped todeal with betrayal Like it.
Just it's not their job.
They're spiritual leaders, notyour therapist, and so using
them for a therapist, I justthink is is not a great way to
go.
And so finding a coach,therapist, all of it, whatever
(42:34):
you can, so you can work throughthese issues, I think is so
important Making sure you'retaking care of yourself, right
You're.
If you can only get up, take ashower and get dressed for the
day, that's enough.
Just be really kind.
You don't have to.
(42:55):
I think I know in my past Iwould cut things out of my life,
like sometimes it's just toomuch.
Sometimes people either go intooverdrive and get super, stay,
super, super busy so they don'thave to feel anything, or they
shut down.
So try to at least continuemoving through.
(43:16):
And you don't have to decidetoday if you're staying married
or getting divorced, like youcan.
There's no rush, unless, ofcourse, you get divorce paper
right, like it just depends.
But if there's not a pressing,there's not a timetable, you
could.
You could wait a year or youdon't.
I just wouldn't put a time onmaking a decision.
(43:37):
You've got to get a littlehealthier to make a decision.
And um, yeah, I think um justlots of love and compassion,
lots of um, knowing that thereis help out there, and finding
someone that fits with you, thatyou feel comfortable with Um
(44:00):
and you, you know, feel like,okay, this could be helpful.
Right, I think, finding theright person and if you go to a
therapist or a coach and youdon't like them after a few
times, you can switch likeyou're allowed to.
You don't have to stay withsomeone, right.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
I love that.
I love that, like you can takeownership of of the healing
process.
Right, I love that.
I love that, like you can takeownership of of the healing
process.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Right, yeah, and I would say don't wait for your
husband.
If your husband's the one thathad the affair, don't decide.
I'm going to wait for him totake the lead.
No, you are allowed to go gethelp.
You're allowed to spend moneyon yourself for healing.
You're allowed to.
You don't have to wait for them, don't?
(44:42):
I think so many people lookoutward instead of inward and
just pay attention what do youneed?
And a lot of us women, we don'tknow what we need and so
figuring out okay, just can youname something.
That's why having someone helpyou, having a coach, help you,
you can help identify what myneeds are.
I met with one of my clientstoday and we went through her
(45:04):
whole her 10 needs.
I have a needs list in one ofmy courses and you know I was
just helping her identify eachthing.
What does she need in that andhow can she meet it?
So often we expect everyoneelse to meet our needs.
It's like, no, it's our job tomeet our needs yeah, that's so
(45:24):
good.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
I think that people are going to find this really
beneficial and I think, even ifyou aren't suffering but
betrayal, those things are stillvery worthwhile.
Think about right, likeespecially midlife women.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Yeah, like raising our kids We've.
We were just focused on ourkids needs and not even ours,
right yeah?
Speaker 2 (45:43):
So taking that time to to heal in other ways right
From other things and just Idon't know the more I've, you
know we use.
It's so easy to think that ifother people change we'll be
happy.
But when we take ownership andstart making like, just getting
self-reflective and and decidingwhat kind of person do I want
(46:04):
to be, what, what do I want tocreate in my life, and just
those simple things change ourrelationships without ever
having to change the otherperson.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Yeah, I always say, once you start doing a different
dance, the other person's goingto have to start learning your
new dance steps or they're goingto be like I don't want to
learn this dance.
You know you figure out like,and a lot of times people do
come with you.
You just have to be the leaderyou have to be, and I think
people are like well, I wasn'tthe one who did the betrayal,
(46:37):
right, that's okay, you stillare the one that is affected by
it, you still have that pain,and no marriage is perfect,
right.
We all have different thingsthat we do in a marriage that we
probably could work on.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Yeah Well, we've created that pattern of dance,
right, and so what pattern havewe contributed to the marriage
and can?
Is that worth looking at anddeciding?
Is this a pattern that I wantto keep, that I'm doing, and,
and what would life be like if Icould let that go?
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
That affect our relationship.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
So and feeling helps you not even when you're you end
up getting divorced.
I always think, like I'mdivorced, maybe I'll get
remarried, I don't know, butanything I'm learning now will
for sure help me oh, yeah, yeah,a hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
It helps us in every relationship yeah, with right.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
I mean yeah, yeah, so good family yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
So good.
Well, this has been so fun.
Jennifer, thank you forlistening and talking about this
, so just tell people where theycan find you.
I will put the links in theshow notes, but just let them
know where they can find you.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Yeah, I have.
So I have a weekly podcast aswell.
I'm called happily even after,with life coach Jen, and so
every Monday I drop an episodeand talk about different things.
And then I have a website,lifecoachjencom, and I have I'm
on Instagram, mostly at happilyeven after coach, and so that's
(48:18):
where you can find me.
And I have I'm going to put I'mgoing to send it to Jill a link
.
You can take a quiz and it'scalled how healed are you, and
it will you enter in youranswers and it will spit out how
healed you are, and so it's a,you know, just a fun tool to if
you're wondering, like curious,like wow, I thought I was healed
(48:39):
and actually I have some workto do.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Wonderful.
Well, thank you so much.
Oh yeah, thank you.
Thank you for tuning in to theseasons of joy podcast.
I hope you enjoyed today'sepisode and if you like what you
heard, don't forget tosubscribe, leave a review and
share with your friends andfamily.
If you want to learn more aboutme't forget to subscribe, leave
a review and share with yourfriends and family.
If you want to learn more aboutme or how to work with me, just
visit my website,wwwseasons-coachingcom, and have
(49:07):
a joyful week.
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