January 31, 2025 • 36 mins
In this conversation, Paula Scanlan discusses her experiences as a swimmer at the University of Pennsylvania, particularly regarding the inclusion of transgender athlete Leah Thomas in women's sports.
She shares her journey from competitive swimming to becoming an advocate for women's rights in sports, highlighting the challenges faced by female athletes in the current climate.
The discussion covers the impact of these changes on mental health, the role of the NCAA, and the importance of standing up for truth and fairness in sports.
Keywords
Paula Scanlan, Riley Gaines Center, women's sports, Leah Thomas, NCAA, transgender athletes, competitive swimming, mental health, advocacy, legislation
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Paula Scanlan and Her Role
02:59 The Competitive Swimming Environment
05:57 The Impact of Leah Thomas on Women's Sports
08:56 Personal Experiences in the Locker Room
12:02 Mental Health and Coping Mechanisms
15:01 The Role of the NCAA and Legislative Efforts
17:56 Advice for Young Athletes
20:55 The Global Perspective on Women's Sports
24:08 Future Plans and Ongoing Advocacy
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
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(00:56):
And now on with. The show.
Hi, I'm Paula Scanlon and to me happiness is spending great time
with my friends and family and building relationships with
people have been so blessed to be in my life.
(01:17):
And so that to me is happiness. It doesn't really come from
anything else. That comes from these great
relationships I have with so many wonderful people.
God has blessed me. OK.
Paula Scanlon, thanks so much for taking time for us.
I really appreciate. Yeah, thank you so much for
having me. Yeah, absolutely excited to have
you on the show. You are Special Projects
(01:38):
ambassador for the Riley Gaines Center, correct?
Yes. What does that job entail?
Yeah, well, I've been helping Riley on this issue for well
over a year now. So we just go around to
campuses. Sometimes I'll do campus
speeches, sometimes I'll go on media and and podcasts and
(01:58):
things like that. So it's really just whatever
comes up. However, I can help Riley
further on this cause. Perfect.
Wow. How?
How long did you swim with Riley?
I didn't swim with Riley, OK. I went to the University of
Pennsylvania and I was teammateswith the man that Riley tied
with at the NCAA Championship. Right, right.
Yeah, I knew about that aspect. I guess for some reason I
(02:21):
thought you guys competed together but but you did, you
did well. Did you get involved in swimming
and from an early age were you always interested in the sport?
Yeah, I started swimming competitively at age 8, so I'd
always been good at, I'd always done some lessons as a kid and I
was always pretty good at doing those.
(02:42):
And it was interesting some the town that I grew up in had just
finished building an Olympic sized pool when I was about 8
years old as my parents thought it would be a really good
activity to get into. And I really hated it at first
actually. But I just kept on going maybe
once a week, once or twice a week.
And eventually I I realized I actually really liked it and I
continued to do it. That's awesome.
(03:03):
That is awesome. Yeah.
It's such a great sport, right? I mean, just mentally it just
and physically, but it just seems like once you're in the
water, you kind of just forget everything.
Just focus on what your what your task is.
Yeah, definitely. It's it's hard, but it's it's
one of those is sports that it'syou have to really like it to do
it. So, Oh yeah, it grew up on me.
(03:26):
That's perfect. Did you grow up speaking about,
you know, talking to to kids on campus and everything about this
issue? Did you grow up around a lot of
strong women in your family? I would say so, yeah.
My mom is definitely a strong woman.
I have a lot of other female family members that are
definitely are as well. So I I would say so, yeah.
(03:48):
I mean, I guess it kind of kind of formulated your, your
strength, right as you get olderand you kind of take a take a
stand on certain issues. Definitely.
Did you what's it what's it likein in competitive swimming like
in college? I mean, what walk us through
that, that kind of environment just in general, not to mention
(04:09):
things you have to to compete with, you know, that we'll get
into in just a second, but just overall, what's that like?
Yeah. I mean, it's a really
challenging sport. I mean, assuming you have two
practices a day, that's not common, not a lot of sports to
have those. And it's it's really competitive
because it's a team sport once in college, but it's also
individuals. So every single time we go to a
(04:33):
meeting, people are left behind.And so it's competitive to even
get into being allowed to compete.
Whether you win the competition outright or you place last, it's
still a challenge to I've even been invited to go to go there.
And that was the case in high school as well.
That was that happened, you know, all through swimming that
there are limited rosters. And then same thing, a lot of
(04:54):
these meets you have to try to make finals.
And again, it's usually capped out at 24 people or 16 people
sort of depending on, on the format.
So it's, it's, it's a very, verycompetitive thing.
And again, it it's competitive so much so that, you know, even
getting to compete altogether sometimes that part is the
(05:15):
bigger competition in in itself.Yeah, I can imagine.
I mean, you're, you're you're trying to beat your time.
Do you find it's just it's more of an individual aspect as far
as what you're trying to get better at just like that.
I mean, you're trying to beat your time, right?
Your previous time? Exactly.
We University of Pennsylvania sorry about the the dog back
(05:38):
there are canine producers is chiming in this time for sure.
University of Pennsylvania you found yourself competing against
Leah Thomas, the a man who was competing in women's sports.
What was your very first reaction to that?
Do you remember the day you found that out and what you
thought? Yeah.
(05:59):
So I first found out that Leah Thomas was going to be competing
on our women's team back in 2019.
And the way it was announced to us is he was just told to run a
women's team meeting and he looked at all of us and just
said, I'm transgender. I'm going to be transitioning to
your, your guys's team next season.
(06:19):
And that was the end of the conversation.
He also said that we must now refer to him with she her
pronouns. And honestly, I thought that it
was a joke. My first instinct was to laugh
because I said there's no way that this is possible.
There's no way that anyone will think that this is the right
thing to do or should be allowedto happen.
But of course it was not a joke and he did go on and eventually
(06:41):
join our team and go on and win an NCAA championship, which is
obviously the most extreme outcome possible.
Yeah. Did you did anyone on campus in
an authority type role, did theyever baka that or have any kind
of push back on him being on theteam or did it just what did you
(07:02):
feel like you you all were just kind of not even taken into
consideration of how you felt. Every single person we tried to
talk to that was higher up or inthe administration or anything
like that had just said my handsare tied, there's nothing I can
do. You might as well be accepting
because this is going to be the reality whether you like it or
not. And that seemed to be the
answer, not even across my university, but across all of
(07:26):
the other Ivy League schools. I knew a lot of other athletes
that competed in our league again.
So within the Ivy League, we were really the ones dealing
with it because again, we compete against them in dual
meets. We don't see most other teams in
the year. But all the other universities
were also doing the same thing with friends who swam at Yale
and Harvard and and Harvard put in writing and told the girls in
(07:48):
writing that if they ever spoke out against it, they would
contribute to someone committingsuicide.
I mean, I had texted a close friend at Yale and said, you
know, what do you think? And she says, don't talk to me
about this. So it was really across all the
schools. It was just do not speak about
it. And there was really no one
there to support us female athletes.
Wow, it's so disappointing, isn't it?
(08:08):
I mean, it's hard enough to compete in a sport, much less
have that going on. Yeah, definitely.
And it was, it was just a really, you know, insane time to
live through for sure. You know, the common sense of it
all just seems at the time, it just seems to go out the window.
(08:30):
And you know there's a reason why women compete against other
women, right? Yeah, exactly.
And again, this whole issue, it's just it's really crazy to
me that we even have to defend this.
I think that there is in a lot of I mean, just so obvious and
and again, it really is not evena political thing which is
somehow turn into but I people across the Iowa completely, you
(08:54):
know, all are in agreement that this is wrong.
This is a common sense issue, not even really a political 1.
So again, it's just it's crazy we have to go through and talk
about this and also pass legislation and see through
lawsuits just to accomplish whateveryone knew to be true 10
years ago, that men and women are different.
Absolutely. I mean, did you find yourself,
(09:16):
did you have to go into the samelocker room as him and and dress
and undress in front of him? Yeah, my teammates and I were
doing this 18 times per week. It was including nine practices.
You change in and change out. It was honestly horrifying.
I mean, I stopped showering at the pool.
I would duck my head in my locker, wrap myself in my towel
(09:38):
and try to get out of there as quickly as possible.
But this was not something that happened once or twice again,
the girls we competed against, it was something that happened
to them once or twice. But for us on my team, it was 18
times per week that we were forced to do this per week we
were on the team. The season isn't once long.
I had one of my friends in the locker next to him and she was
like, I can't do this. So she would take all of her
(10:00):
stuff out every single day and go and change in the single
stall family bathroom outside our locker room every day.
And everyone knew what she was doing because again, her locker
was directly next to his. She was like she she felt like
she had no other options. And when she talked to our
coaches in the administration about it, they did that.
There's nothing we can do. Leah's part of this team,
whether you like it or not. So you find you find a way to
(10:22):
make yourself comfortable in theway that she did was by leaving
the locker room all together andundressing outside by herself.
Wow, so put it off on you guys like it was your your problem
and you had to make yourself comfortable, not the other way
around. Yeah, seems like it should be
that. I mean it seems like there there
could have been accommodations made but that's so crazy because
(10:45):
they need any other time or any other situation you would never
have an such in an environment of changing.
You wouldn't have male and female in the same room.
Yeah, exactly. And again, it's one of those
things where it's just, it's it's just really wild that we
even have to defend this in thisday and age.
Did you find that it started to affect your love for the sport?
(11:09):
Did you ever come to a point while you're competing where you
just said the hell with it? I mean, it's just not worth it.
Yeah, I definitely felt like I didn't.
I didn't want to do it at times anymore.
I felt like it didn't feel fun. I mean, I definitely feel that
when the season ended at the endof the year, it was my last year
swimming as well because I was also a senior.
(11:32):
And I just remember feeling relieved.
And so it definitely made. And people will always ask me
all this time. And me now, I'm 2 1/2 years away
from having been on that team incollege and people always ask
me, do you miss swimming? And to be honest, I always say
no because that event is sort ofmy last memory of it.
And it it really just ruined thetaste in my mouth for lack of a
(11:52):
better expression about swimmingand all of it in general.
That's awful. I mean, that's just, it's, it's
awful that that had to, to crushyour, your thoughts of the sport
because you loved it. You know, it's just, it's
heartbreaking to hear that. Yeah, but again, I mean, I'm
trying to make the most of it now by working on this stuff,
(12:13):
but it definitely was really, really taxing on on myself and
and a lot of the people I thought were my friends as well
have a different viewpoint on this issue.
And I lost a lot of people I thought were my friends and and
teammates that again, don't like, don't agree with what I
think about the situation. So that part was also pretty
challenging too. I'm sure, I'm sure.
(12:35):
I mean, to lose friends over that, it's got to be, it's, it's
rough when you have a, you wouldthink that all females would
come together on that. But I'm, I guess, I guess not.
I guess everybody, everybody hastheir own take on it.
Did you did you, did you worry at the time or did you do you
worry now about things like thatwith hurting people's careers
(12:57):
after swimming? Did you, did you think about, my
gosh, you know, he he's winning these these awards and
everything and it's not fair. It's unfairly competition.
Did you think about that at all?The future for for some women.
Yeah, every single day. I mean, every single time he can
even competed, it was unfair because someone was losing the
opportunity to get to the competition altogether.
(13:19):
So again, even if he went in andplaced dead last, someone was
still denied the opportunity of having the award of being at
that meet or traveling to that competition or whatever it might
be. So yeah, that that hurt every
single time it happened. I mean, you like to think that
(13:39):
when you're getting in the waterand you're and you're competing
that it's everybody's fairly, you know, matched up.
But that certainly wasn't the case.
Even looking at the video, you could tell that he was just
dominating in some of the events.
Yeah, exactly. And it was it was just one of
those things where it's just so obvious to to look at that men
and women are different. And again, I mean, it wasn't
(14:02):
enough for the NCAA to change their policy.
It wasn't enough for a lot of other people to understand why a
lot of us female athletes are soupset.
But it's really obvious. Oh, yeah, it really is.
I mean, where are we now with that?
What? What has the NCAA done?
What has it gotten better? I mean, are we in a different
(14:22):
place? Yeah, so the NCAA has done
nothing and they've sort of punted the problem to the
governing bodies of each sport. They just kind of say, you know,
whatever other people want to do, we're fine with it.
So the leadership of the NCAA isnot acted to protect us female
athletes, which it's disappointing, to say the least.
(14:45):
They are, you know, constantly in a position where they need to
protect their athletes and they choose not to.
But we do have legislation in over half the states.
I think it's 26 states now have legislation to make women's
sports only for women so that itwould win.
But we still have work left to do.
Yeah. So at least the the most or some
(15:06):
of the states or at least comingon coming on board with it.
That's good. And it's good to hear that.
I mean, I guess it's going to have to come down to the state
level. Yeah, we're hoping something
federally could be passed, but we do have to make sure it's
it's done in the states because who's to say in a couple more
years when, you know, different leadership comes in on the
federal level that they won't undo it.
(15:28):
So there's still a lot of work to be done and there's going to
be probably cases in the courts.I mean, I think this will
honestly eventually go up to theSupreme Court.
So I'm very curious to see how it plays out.
But obviously we're going to keep fighting and trying to get
this stuff passed and also trying to be there and support
athletes that are going through this.
And I think that's the the biggest thing I've gotten to
(15:50):
work on now is we are the support system.
We are able to support female athletes that are going for
this. And we've been able to get these
girls to boycott, maybe unable to support them and tell them
that what their universities aretelling them is is not real and
they're just empty threats. And nobody can can take away
your rights without you having aword to say about it.
(16:11):
So that's something we've been working.
And again, it's it's great to beable to do it because I didn't
have that resource when I was going through it.
Do you wish the NCAA had more courage in the situation and
showed more backing for for women?
Absolutely. And, and again, it's, it's
continually disappointing, but it's been so long, I just, I
(16:31):
can't see them changing their minds and, and figuring this
out. Going back to when it was
happening in in real time, did you, how did you cope with that
mentally? I mean, I know that's, I can't
imagine, but did you have some go to's that helped you kind of
get through it? Yeah, I really relied on my
(16:52):
family a lot just to talk about it and just see it through.
I mean, it, it was really challenging and it was also hard
because there were so many people telling us that it wasn't
real, You know, our our feelingsweren't real and valid.
They were telling us that again,we were the problem.
We were at university, told us to go seek psychological
(17:13):
services if we objected still tohim being on our team and being
on our locker room. So I just tried to really rely
on people who weren't part of the Penn community.
Can you imagine if like, let's say you're in the locker room
and just, and any guy at all just walks into the locker room
and just kind of hangs around? I mean, university would have
(17:37):
something to say about that, I guess.
I hope. I would hope so too, but that
was exactly what was happening every day.
And if you ever raised concerns about it, we were told again, we
were the problem, we were makingit, we were hateful.
We were again, we were told to seek help if we objected.
Wow, to anyone listening, especially young women, what
(17:59):
what would you say? What kind of advice would you
give? If if they're find themselves in
a similar situation and they feel like, you know, what's the
point? Why do I even I'm going to get
told, like you all did, that it's your problem.
Seek seek help, mental help. What what would you say to that?
Do they do you have to keep fighting?
Yeah, I'd say keep fighting. I mean, I think the biggest
thing here that I really struggled with was sort of
(18:21):
feeling like this is the truth. And I, I think a lot of people
had a really hard time with that, and especially other
people who are Christian as well.
They were saying the same thing.Well, it's, well, it's loving.
And the loving and caring thing to do is to affirm his identity
and to affirm him being on the team.
But part of the Christian valuesis, is also truth.
(18:41):
And so I think that that was thebig thing is I learned and that
was hard for me to cut to come across was actually the loving
thing to do is to tell them the truth.
And so to anyone going through this, that's what I want to
remind you. That's what I want you to
remember that again, the loving thing to do is to tell the
truth. And you have to stand up for
(19:02):
truth when you're faced with, and this is a situation where if
we don't defend ourselves, much worse things are going to
happen. And that that's why to me, it
was so important to speak up. And it's important other people
also speak up and face the same things.
That's very well said. I I would think too that
because, because truth reigns out overall, I would think that
it's ultimately hurting him as well that he, he's living in
(19:25):
denial and an untruthful manner of competing with women.
So I think it's it's doing damage to everyone involved when
you let that happen and go on. Absolutely.
And there's a good friend of mine, Macy Petty, She also works
on this issue. She competed against male
athletes in high school in volleyball.
And she'll also constantly remind us of that, too.
(19:48):
She's a she's a good friend. And she'll say the same thing.
Like, yeah, like he's hurting. And I pray for him constantly
that he comes around and, you know, stops harming himself.
And that's something Macy's justthe sweetest girl.
And sometimes I have a harder time seeing that.
And so Macy's someone who will always remind us of that.
So it's, it's funny that you brought that up because that
(20:09):
again is something that she'll check in and remind me.
And it's, and it's, it's good tohave friends that are understand
this issue, but also understand the Christian faith and the
Christian values. So.
That's something I might know appreciative of to, to just have
been able to surround myself with so many like minded women,
right. Riley's become a great friend of
mine as well. And we share a lot of values
(20:31):
outside of of swimming. And so that's been sort of the
the silver lining of of all of this.
Yeah, I mean, the way I see it, you know, if, if, if he wants to
to, if he feels like he needs todo that or live that that
lifestyle, which is, you know, fine.
But when you start affecting other people, that's when you
kind of have to look at it in a different light because you're
(20:52):
affecting others and it's not fair.
Definitely. And I and I think it's it's one
of the it's one of those things,though, that it's it's just
really sad for everyone involved.
There's no, there's really no winners here.
Yeah, Leah Thomas might have wonan NCAA championship, but at
what cost to his teammates, to the girls he was competing
(21:14):
against, to himself, for even the attention of what happened.
And I'm sure some of the the hate that gets thrown around and
I don't agree with him competing, but I would never,
you know, say anything about himas an individual because that's
not my place. But there are many people who
don't have those beliefs and values and do do those things.
(21:36):
I mean, I also see a fair share myself.
And so again, for everyone involved, it's it's there's no
winners. No, there's not.
And when he has a false feeling of winning that championship, I
mean, at what cost? I mean, that's what you really
have to look at. And the the one of the best
things about sports is you feel like, OK, it was an it was an
(21:57):
honest, fair competition and andthe best person one out.
But in this case, the deck is stacked against you all from the
very beginning, it seems like. And I think that's one thing I,
I, the, from what I've seen people don't, especially the
media doesn't get, is it's not about crucify an individual for
(22:18):
what they believe or how they want to live.
It's about when that causes harmto other people.
And the whole idea of women's sports and competing, it's hard
enough for women to be seen as equals and in the especially in
the sporting world. And to have that come up, like
you said, it's just there's no winners and it's just, it's
hurtful. Yeah, and that's that's what I
(22:41):
really wish people would see that.
Again, this is not coming from aplace of hate.
I mean, I think that that's oftentimes what we're told that
we're hateful, that we're bigoted, that, you know, like
they call us all these names, but I I don't I don't agree with
that. It really gonna this is about
defending women. This is about being pro women.
And that is like all that is allwe've ever strived out to do and
(23:05):
that's all we've ever wanted from from working on this issue,
from what we do at the Riley Gates Center, from all of that.
So again, if anyone is still in a position of critiquing us,
again, this, this really is justpro women.
Absolutely. Yeah.
That's, that's the overall message that we need to remember
and everybody needs to remember that and what we're talking
(23:26):
about. So going forward, you you
started working with with Riley as an ambassador to the
Leadership Institute. How did that come about?
Did you reach out to her or did she get in touch with you?
When I first when Riley first did an interview about this
issue. So she didn't meet Leah Thomas
(23:47):
at at She didn't meet Leah Thomas until the NCAA
championship, which happened in March.
Again, my team had been we had known about it for years.
He had been competing on behalf of our team for months.
At this point. The season competitions start in
October. So it was we were dealing with
it for many months and no one was really talking about it.
No one was giving it any attention.
(24:08):
And so I reached out to Riley assoon as she did an interview and
I just said, like, thank you so much for for saying something.
You know, I told her about how my team had told us we were
bigoted and hateful and it triedto silence us and all of this.
So she immediately responded andthe two of us became friends,
just sort of connecting online. And then obviously she started
(24:30):
to do a lot more interviews and all of that.
And so eventually when she created the Riley Gain Center,
the Leadership Institute, I had already been working on this
issue. I'd already been speaking and
doing interviews and all that. So it was just a, a very obvious
thing. She was like, absolutely come on
board and let's do this all together.
Wow, that's so cool. And what's the overall mission
(24:52):
of the Institute Of what do you how do you hope to make a
difference in women's sports overall?
Yeah, I touched on this briefly before.
It's really just about being thesupport network for the women
who are going through this and also raising awareness on the
issues that the mainstream mediadoesn't want to cover.
I think those are the the two big things is and something
we've gotten to do is this project boycott, right?
(25:13):
So we've got in these girls in in volleyball, there's college
level. There's also a high school that
was faced at the same thing and we sent it back.
I did not go on this, but we sent ambassadors down there to
support the girls and also got the nice T-shirts boycott and
really just validate what they're doing.
And that was really helpful again, to, to see these girls
(25:33):
boycott and say, no, I, I'm not partaking in this.
I don't want unfair competition.I don't want men into my sports.
And again, being that support system, when I went through
this, I was alone. I was on my team.
I didn't feel like anyone supported me.
I didn't know where I could go. And what we're really trying to
do with the center is say this is the resource.
So if you're going through this,people will automatically know,
oh, I know about the Riley Gain center.
(25:54):
Why don't I try to reach out to them and then we'll be there to
support them. And again, that's really the
biggest thing that I felt was missing when I went through this
myself. So that's what we're going to
do. Well, and it seems like things
are changing slowly but surely. Have you seen any common sense
coming back into the powers thatbe?
(26:15):
What are you? What kind of feedback are you
getting? But from, from people out there.
Yeah, we've been seeing progress.
I mean, the NCAA hasn't done what they needed to do, but the
NAIA, which is an alternative tothe NCAA.
So there's a few colleges that are in the NAIA.
They've already said we're not doing this.
Men are not going to compete in women's sports.
But interestingly, the the UN actually released the report
(26:38):
that over 1000 female athletes have lost metal opportunities by
male athletes competing in theirsports.
And that was that was really honestly a win for us because
the UN admitting that that was really where we are on this
issue. Because again, the UN is, is not
necessarily very on the on the right wing side that and right
(26:58):
wing has been more into this issue and been more supportive
to us on this issue. And that was a honestly very
surprising that they even admitted that.
So again, it's a, it's showed usthat this does reach across
party lines. It showed us that this isn't
again, a common sense issue. And it's good to see the other
groups are starting to acknowledge that this is a
(27:20):
problem. But again, there was a lot of
articles written after the election that this issue was was
heavily covered in the election and heavily covered in a lot of
the ads for this past election. So again, that that wasn't the
case four years ago. So it really shows this really
is a cultural issue and people are really into it.
Yeah, that surprises me about the UN actually too, because
(27:41):
yeah, you wouldn't expect them to say that.
We were shocked. You can go look it up.
I I do highly actually recommendyou you look into it.
It was, it was really. We were very impressed.
So it's a so are you saying it'sit is it is a global issue?
I mean, other countries are facing this as well.
Absolutely. I mean, we saw this in this past
Olympics. It was, it was a little bit of a
(28:02):
different situation because it was regarding intersex athletes,
but male athletes nonetheless. And this is happening in other
countries. I mean, we have allies over in
England. They're dealing with that.
There's this great woman here. She's a former marathon Olympian
named Mara and she was covering local running races and she's,
she lives in England, but local running races when male athletes
(28:25):
would compete should be coveringit.
This is happening in international competitions.
We have also some friends in Australia also trying to fight
the same things. I mean, right, the we could act
best with probably the fellow English speaking language
languages, but this is, this is happening in in other countries
as well. And it's, it's really
heartbreaking to see. And we get, you know, reached
(28:48):
out to all these, these athletesacross the country and, and
Olympians and college athletes and kids, little kids in
elementary, middle school, high school, of course, you name it,
it's, it's really widespread. Wow, wow.
And when you get a big a movement like that, it's it only
helps the cause because when yourealize that this is not just
one school, one state, this is going on everywhere.
(29:11):
I just kind of helps make peopleunderstand, OK, this is a a real
issue here and gets them, I think on the right page of what
we're talking about. Like you said, and I wanted to
make clear too in the show, it'snot about a feeling of hate
towards anyone else or anyone else's lifestyle.
It's about defending women. And that's bait.
(29:32):
And that's the the bottom line of this whole thing.
Absolutely. And that's really why we do it
and that's really why it's worthdoing and it's worthwhile taking
the time to talk about this. It's, it's really just about,
about, you know, defending womenand, and protecting our, our
next generation of female athletes too, 'cause I think
it's even more heartbreaking when I see this happening to
(29:52):
middle school aged girls and, and elementary school aged
girls, even high school aged girls 'cause when I went through
it, I was well over the age of 18.
And I, and I'm seeing the, again, the really young girls
that are forced to deal with this and have to make the
decision to stand up. That, to me, really, really
breaks my heart. That's that's a great point.
The future, future athletes, if if anyone is watching or a
(30:16):
parent, maybe what what would beyour hope and message to the
young athletes out there of today?
What what can they do to help kind of not make sure this
doesn't come back or get any worse?
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is if you see it, say something
and then that's that sounds so silly, but there's still so many
people who are quiet about this.I mean, I even have teammates
(30:37):
from my own team that experienceexactly what I did, and they're
not willing to talk about it publicly still to this day.
And that to me, and honestly, I love them and I understand we're
coming from, but you're being, you're part of the problem if
you see it and you're not willing to stand up for.
And that's something that reallywhen I was, I was quiet for a
(30:58):
little bit before I ever spoke about this publicly.
But as something I realized, I said, if I stay quiet, I'm
accepting this. I'm contributing to the problem
by saying it's OK, Yeah, you cando that.
So that's my biggest advice is like if you see something, say
something and and talk about it.And the other thing with that is
if you lose your job or your friends or whatever it might be,
(31:21):
those are never your friends to begin with.
And that job is not a place you want to work.
And that's a that's a really challenging reality for a lot of
people. But that was something I quickly
realized. I said OK well if my friends
don't want to talk to me over metalking about this issue then
they probably weren't weren't myfriend to begin with.
That's right, that's right. And it's almost like I'd say
it's a good thing, but you kind of realize who your friends are
(31:42):
and you kind of weed out people who you can't trust or you feel
like, or they don't have my backanyway.
So it kind of helps you out in the long run, but.
Yes, absolutely. That's exactly what I what I
tell. And it's harder for for younger
people and and everyone just to be liked.
And so that's the thing I will always remind someone is I'm
actually really grateful that people like that aren't part of
(32:04):
my life anymore because they were never a true friend to
begin with. And if it wasn't this issue, it
would have been something else. Oh yeah, and especially with,
with young girls in, in middle school, high school, and then on
into college, you always want tofit in.
You want to have friends in a friend group.
And it's, it's, it's not easy todo the right thing for sure, and
to stand up for what you believein, but it's so important.
(32:26):
Absolutely. And that's, that's really what
I've learned and on this journey, yeah, I've made a lot
of friends and I'm really grateful to, to be surrounded by
so many wonderful women that have the same values as myself.
And so that's something that I never would have experienced had
I not gone through this. So it's not all negative.
And we've all again, really cometogether and, and sort of been
(32:47):
that support network that we didn't have what we were going
through this. And then we also had the
opportunity to actually go and build that out.
And so that's been rewarding again, to see the impact that
we're making and, and to see young girls that were helping.
That's amazing. What do you have planned for for
for 25 or you do you have any events coming up that that you'd
(33:07):
like to share? So far, we're still working on
everything, but we are going to be again, continuing to support
these e-mail athletes. So if there's something going on
in this issue, you will definitely see us there.
And again, we're just continuingto, yes, I think the biggest
thing is to be that support support system and support
network. But we're going to continue to
(33:28):
raise awareness on this issue. We're also going to continue to
help talk about legislation. I mean there's also a few
lawsuits in regards to this issues also.
We're going to be there to support those.
Some people, Riley may be testifying in some some issues
on that level, so we're going tobe looking out for that and just
(33:50):
supporting the team and and making, you know, putting it
into this issue. That's awesome.
That's great. Great to hear you're doing,
you're doing amazing work and you're, you're very brave.
And I just want to thank you forfor coming on because it's just,
it's an important conversation and I feel like we all have to,
to face it and talk about it. It's just it's that important.
(34:11):
Where can people connect with you online if they want to reach
out or find out more about the Riley Gain Center?
Yeah, rileygaincenter.org is thewebsite.
So if you guys need any, if you,if you're going through this
yourself and need help, go there.
If you just want to see where Riley's going to be, what some
of us are up to check it out andyou have all the information
(34:32):
that you need on there. But I really appreciate you
taking the time just to, to helpus raise awareness to this issue
and just take the interest. I mean, again, it's a, it's,
it's been a really interesting, you know, several years working
on this and I appreciate all theallies that we've made.
And then you taking, again, taking the time to, to really
(34:53):
explore this and talk about it. I again, I'm so appreciative of
you for that. Oh, what's it's our pleasure.
And, and please come back because as things develop and
love to have you back and talk about about this because, yeah,
it's something that it's something we need to talk about
and make sure that things like this don't happen because it's
(35:15):
it's all about the right, the right thing.
I mean, it's just like you said,and we've said in this podcast,
it's common sense and it's just,there's, there's a reason why we
have women compete against otherwomen and men against men.
And it's just to make sports fair and enjoyable.
I mean, because it can't be enjoyable.
I'm sure competing and knowing that he is, you know, pulling
(35:38):
through the water and, and, and blowing people out of the water.
So that's just, yeah, it's, it'ssad, but I think it's it's
getting better and I think it will definitely change.
So. Definitely.
And it's, it's because of peoplelike you and, and like all of us
that have have really just started to just say, hey, this
is not OK and we're going to talk about it and we're not
(35:59):
going to go away until there's solutions.
So I, I again, really thank you so much for that.
Oh, oh, yeah, Paula, thank you. Thank you so much.
And like I said, please come back.
Absolutely love to. Happiness Sold Separately is
created and hosted by Jason Hensley and is produced by
Makash Films. Narration by Lauren Gobis.
(36:21):
If you or someone you know is incrisis and needs immediate help,
call the National Mental Health Hotline at 866-903-3787.
We would be honored if you wouldrate, share and subscribe from
the entire Happiness Sold Separately team.
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And now on with. The show.
Hi, I'm Paula Scanlon and to me happiness is spending great time
with my friends and family and building relationships with
people have been so blessed to be in my life.
(01:17):
And so that to me is happiness. It doesn't really come from
anything else. That comes from these great
relationships I have with so many wonderful people.
God has blessed me. OK.
Paula Scanlon, thanks so much for taking time for us.
I really appreciate. Yeah, thank you so much for
having me. Yeah, absolutely excited to have
you on the show. You are Special Projects
(01:38):
ambassador for the Riley Gaines Center, correct?
Yes. What does that job entail?
Yeah, well, I've been helping Riley on this issue for well
over a year now. So we just go around to
campuses. Sometimes I'll do campus
speeches, sometimes I'll go on media and and podcasts and
(01:58):
things like that. So it's really just whatever
comes up. However, I can help Riley
further on this cause. Perfect.
Wow. How?
How long did you swim with Riley?
I didn't swim with Riley, OK. I went to the University of
Pennsylvania and I was teammateswith the man that Riley tied
with at the NCAA Championship. Right, right.
Yeah, I knew about that aspect. I guess for some reason I
(02:21):
thought you guys competed together but but you did, you
did well. Did you get involved in swimming
and from an early age were you always interested in the sport?
Yeah, I started swimming competitively at age 8, so I'd
always been good at, I'd always done some lessons as a kid and I
was always pretty good at doing those.
(02:42):
And it was interesting some the town that I grew up in had just
finished building an Olympic sized pool when I was about 8
years old as my parents thought it would be a really good
activity to get into. And I really hated it at first
actually. But I just kept on going maybe
once a week, once or twice a week.
And eventually I I realized I actually really liked it and I
continued to do it. That's awesome.
(03:03):
That is awesome. Yeah.
It's such a great sport, right? I mean, just mentally it just
and physically, but it just seems like once you're in the
water, you kind of just forget everything.
Just focus on what your what your task is.
Yeah, definitely. It's it's hard, but it's it's
one of those is sports that it'syou have to really like it to do
it. So, Oh yeah, it grew up on me.
(03:26):
That's perfect. Did you grow up speaking about,
you know, talking to to kids on campus and everything about this
issue? Did you grow up around a lot of
strong women in your family? I would say so, yeah.
My mom is definitely a strong woman.
I have a lot of other female family members that are
definitely are as well. So I I would say so, yeah.
(03:48):
I mean, I guess it kind of kind of formulated your, your
strength, right as you get olderand you kind of take a take a
stand on certain issues. Definitely.
Did you what's it what's it likein in competitive swimming like
in college? I mean, what walk us through
that, that kind of environment just in general, not to mention
(04:09):
things you have to to compete with, you know, that we'll get
into in just a second, but just overall, what's that like?
Yeah. I mean, it's a really
challenging sport. I mean, assuming you have two
practices a day, that's not common, not a lot of sports to
have those. And it's it's really competitive
because it's a team sport once in college, but it's also
individuals. So every single time we go to a
(04:33):
meeting, people are left behind.And so it's competitive to even
get into being allowed to compete.
Whether you win the competition outright or you place last, it's
still a challenge to I've even been invited to go to go there.
And that was the case in high school as well.
That was that happened, you know, all through swimming that
there are limited rosters. And then same thing, a lot of
(04:54):
these meets you have to try to make finals.
And again, it's usually capped out at 24 people or 16 people
sort of depending on, on the format.
So it's, it's, it's a very, verycompetitive thing.
And again, it it's competitive so much so that, you know, even
getting to compete altogether sometimes that part is the
(05:15):
bigger competition in in itself.Yeah, I can imagine.
I mean, you're, you're you're trying to beat your time.
Do you find it's just it's more of an individual aspect as far
as what you're trying to get better at just like that.
I mean, you're trying to beat your time, right?
Your previous time? Exactly.
We University of Pennsylvania sorry about the the dog back
(05:38):
there are canine producers is chiming in this time for sure.
University of Pennsylvania you found yourself competing against
Leah Thomas, the a man who was competing in women's sports.
What was your very first reaction to that?
Do you remember the day you found that out and what you
thought? Yeah.
(05:59):
So I first found out that Leah Thomas was going to be competing
on our women's team back in 2019.
And the way it was announced to us is he was just told to run a
women's team meeting and he looked at all of us and just
said, I'm transgender. I'm going to be transitioning to
your, your guys's team next season.
(06:19):
And that was the end of the conversation.
He also said that we must now refer to him with she her
pronouns. And honestly, I thought that it
was a joke. My first instinct was to laugh
because I said there's no way that this is possible.
There's no way that anyone will think that this is the right
thing to do or should be allowedto happen.
But of course it was not a joke and he did go on and eventually
(06:41):
join our team and go on and win an NCAA championship, which is
obviously the most extreme outcome possible.
Yeah. Did you did anyone on campus in
an authority type role, did theyever baka that or have any kind
of push back on him being on theteam or did it just what did you
(07:02):
feel like you you all were just kind of not even taken into
consideration of how you felt. Every single person we tried to
talk to that was higher up or inthe administration or anything
like that had just said my handsare tied, there's nothing I can
do. You might as well be accepting
because this is going to be the reality whether you like it or
not. And that seemed to be the
answer, not even across my university, but across all of
(07:26):
the other Ivy League schools. I knew a lot of other athletes
that competed in our league again.
So within the Ivy League, we were really the ones dealing
with it because again, we compete against them in dual
meets. We don't see most other teams in
the year. But all the other universities
were also doing the same thing with friends who swam at Yale
and Harvard and and Harvard put in writing and told the girls in
(07:48):
writing that if they ever spoke out against it, they would
contribute to someone committingsuicide.
I mean, I had texted a close friend at Yale and said, you
know, what do you think? And she says, don't talk to me
about this. So it was really across all the
schools. It was just do not speak about
it. And there was really no one
there to support us female athletes.
Wow, it's so disappointing, isn't it?
(08:08):
I mean, it's hard enough to compete in a sport, much less
have that going on. Yeah, definitely.
And it was, it was just a really, you know, insane time to
live through for sure. You know, the common sense of it
all just seems at the time, it just seems to go out the window.
(08:30):
And you know there's a reason why women compete against other
women, right? Yeah, exactly.
And again, this whole issue, it's just it's really crazy to
me that we even have to defend this.
I think that there is in a lot of I mean, just so obvious and
and again, it really is not evena political thing which is
somehow turn into but I people across the Iowa completely, you
(08:54):
know, all are in agreement that this is wrong.
This is a common sense issue, not even really a political 1.
So again, it's just it's crazy we have to go through and talk
about this and also pass legislation and see through
lawsuits just to accomplish whateveryone knew to be true 10
years ago, that men and women are different.
Absolutely. I mean, did you find yourself,
(09:16):
did you have to go into the samelocker room as him and and dress
and undress in front of him? Yeah, my teammates and I were
doing this 18 times per week. It was including nine practices.
You change in and change out. It was honestly horrifying.
I mean, I stopped showering at the pool.
I would duck my head in my locker, wrap myself in my towel
(09:38):
and try to get out of there as quickly as possible.
But this was not something that happened once or twice again,
the girls we competed against, it was something that happened
to them once or twice. But for us on my team, it was 18
times per week that we were forced to do this per week we
were on the team. The season isn't once long.
I had one of my friends in the locker next to him and she was
like, I can't do this. So she would take all of her
(10:00):
stuff out every single day and go and change in the single
stall family bathroom outside our locker room every day.
And everyone knew what she was doing because again, her locker
was directly next to his. She was like she she felt like
she had no other options. And when she talked to our
coaches in the administration about it, they did that.
There's nothing we can do. Leah's part of this team,
whether you like it or not. So you find you find a way to
(10:22):
make yourself comfortable in theway that she did was by leaving
the locker room all together andundressing outside by herself.
Wow, so put it off on you guys like it was your your problem
and you had to make yourself comfortable, not the other way
around. Yeah, seems like it should be
that. I mean it seems like there there
could have been accommodations made but that's so crazy because
(10:45):
they need any other time or any other situation you would never
have an such in an environment of changing.
You wouldn't have male and female in the same room.
Yeah, exactly. And again, it's one of those
things where it's just, it's it's just really wild that we
even have to defend this in thisday and age.
Did you find that it started to affect your love for the sport?
(11:09):
Did you ever come to a point while you're competing where you
just said the hell with it? I mean, it's just not worth it.
Yeah, I definitely felt like I didn't.
I didn't want to do it at times anymore.
I felt like it didn't feel fun. I mean, I definitely feel that
when the season ended at the endof the year, it was my last year
swimming as well because I was also a senior.
(11:32):
And I just remember feeling relieved.
And so it definitely made. And people will always ask me
all this time. And me now, I'm 2 1/2 years away
from having been on that team incollege and people always ask
me, do you miss swimming? And to be honest, I always say
no because that event is sort ofmy last memory of it.
And it it really just ruined thetaste in my mouth for lack of a
(11:52):
better expression about swimmingand all of it in general.
That's awful. I mean, that's just, it's, it's
awful that that had to, to crushyour, your thoughts of the sport
because you loved it. You know, it's just, it's
heartbreaking to hear that. Yeah, but again, I mean, I'm
trying to make the most of it now by working on this stuff,
(12:13):
but it definitely was really, really taxing on on myself and
and a lot of the people I thought were my friends as well
have a different viewpoint on this issue.
And I lost a lot of people I thought were my friends and and
teammates that again, don't like, don't agree with what I
think about the situation. So that part was also pretty
challenging too. I'm sure, I'm sure.
(12:35):
I mean, to lose friends over that, it's got to be, it's, it's
rough when you have a, you wouldthink that all females would
come together on that. But I'm, I guess, I guess not.
I guess everybody, everybody hastheir own take on it.
Did you did you, did you worry at the time or did you do you
worry now about things like thatwith hurting people's careers
(12:57):
after swimming? Did you, did you think about, my
gosh, you know, he he's winning these these awards and
everything and it's not fair. It's unfairly competition.
Did you think about that at all?The future for for some women.
Yeah, every single day. I mean, every single time he can
even competed, it was unfair because someone was losing the
opportunity to get to the competition altogether.
(13:19):
So again, even if he went in andplaced dead last, someone was
still denied the opportunity of having the award of being at
that meet or traveling to that competition or whatever it might
be. So yeah, that that hurt every
single time it happened. I mean, you like to think that
(13:39):
when you're getting in the waterand you're and you're competing
that it's everybody's fairly, you know, matched up.
But that certainly wasn't the case.
Even looking at the video, you could tell that he was just
dominating in some of the events.
Yeah, exactly. And it was it was just one of
those things where it's just so obvious to to look at that men
and women are different. And again, I mean, it wasn't
(14:02):
enough for the NCAA to change their policy.
It wasn't enough for a lot of other people to understand why a
lot of us female athletes are soupset.
But it's really obvious. Oh, yeah, it really is.
I mean, where are we now with that?
What? What has the NCAA done?
What has it gotten better? I mean, are we in a different
(14:22):
place? Yeah, so the NCAA has done
nothing and they've sort of punted the problem to the
governing bodies of each sport. They just kind of say, you know,
whatever other people want to do, we're fine with it.
So the leadership of the NCAA isnot acted to protect us female
athletes, which it's disappointing, to say the least.
(14:45):
They are, you know, constantly in a position where they need to
protect their athletes and they choose not to.
But we do have legislation in over half the states.
I think it's 26 states now have legislation to make women's
sports only for women so that itwould win.
But we still have work left to do.
Yeah. So at least the the most or some
(15:06):
of the states or at least comingon coming on board with it.
That's good. And it's good to hear that.
I mean, I guess it's going to have to come down to the state
level. Yeah, we're hoping something
federally could be passed, but we do have to make sure it's
it's done in the states because who's to say in a couple more
years when, you know, different leadership comes in on the
federal level that they won't undo it.
(15:28):
So there's still a lot of work to be done and there's going to
be probably cases in the courts.I mean, I think this will
honestly eventually go up to theSupreme Court.
So I'm very curious to see how it plays out.
But obviously we're going to keep fighting and trying to get
this stuff passed and also trying to be there and support
athletes that are going through this.
And I think that's the the biggest thing I've gotten to
(15:50):
work on now is we are the support system.
We are able to support female athletes that are going for
this. And we've been able to get these
girls to boycott, maybe unable to support them and tell them
that what their universities aretelling them is is not real and
they're just empty threats. And nobody can can take away
your rights without you having aword to say about it.
(16:11):
So that's something we've been working.
And again, it's it's great to beable to do it because I didn't
have that resource when I was going through it.
Do you wish the NCAA had more courage in the situation and
showed more backing for for women?
Absolutely. And, and again, it's, it's
continually disappointing, but it's been so long, I just, I
(16:31):
can't see them changing their minds and, and figuring this
out. Going back to when it was
happening in in real time, did you, how did you cope with that
mentally? I mean, I know that's, I can't
imagine, but did you have some go to's that helped you kind of
get through it? Yeah, I really relied on my
(16:52):
family a lot just to talk about it and just see it through.
I mean, it, it was really challenging and it was also hard
because there were so many people telling us that it wasn't
real, You know, our our feelingsweren't real and valid.
They were telling us that again,we were the problem.
We were at university, told us to go seek psychological
(17:13):
services if we objected still tohim being on our team and being
on our locker room. So I just tried to really rely
on people who weren't part of the Penn community.
Can you imagine if like, let's say you're in the locker room
and just, and any guy at all just walks into the locker room
and just kind of hangs around? I mean, university would have
(17:37):
something to say about that, I guess.
I hope. I would hope so too, but that
was exactly what was happening every day.
And if you ever raised concerns about it, we were told again, we
were the problem, we were makingit, we were hateful.
We were again, we were told to seek help if we objected.
Wow, to anyone listening, especially young women, what
(17:59):
what would you say? What kind of advice would you
give? If if they're find themselves in
a similar situation and they feel like, you know, what's the
point? Why do I even I'm going to get
told, like you all did, that it's your problem.
Seek seek help, mental help. What what would you say to that?
Do they do you have to keep fighting?
Yeah, I'd say keep fighting. I mean, I think the biggest
thing here that I really struggled with was sort of
(18:21):
feeling like this is the truth. And I, I think a lot of people
had a really hard time with that, and especially other
people who are Christian as well.
They were saying the same thing.Well, it's, well, it's loving.
And the loving and caring thing to do is to affirm his identity
and to affirm him being on the team.
But part of the Christian valuesis, is also truth.
(18:41):
And so I think that that was thebig thing is I learned and that
was hard for me to cut to come across was actually the loving
thing to do is to tell them the truth.
And so to anyone going through this, that's what I want to
remind you. That's what I want you to
remember that again, the loving thing to do is to tell the
truth. And you have to stand up for
(19:02):
truth when you're faced with, and this is a situation where if
we don't defend ourselves, much worse things are going to
happen. And that that's why to me, it
was so important to speak up. And it's important other people
also speak up and face the same things.
That's very well said. I I would think too that
because, because truth reigns out overall, I would think that
it's ultimately hurting him as well that he, he's living in
(19:25):
denial and an untruthful manner of competing with women.
So I think it's it's doing damage to everyone involved when
you let that happen and go on. Absolutely.
And there's a good friend of mine, Macy Petty, She also works
on this issue. She competed against male
athletes in high school in volleyball.
And she'll also constantly remind us of that, too.
(19:48):
She's a she's a good friend. And she'll say the same thing.
Like, yeah, like he's hurting. And I pray for him constantly
that he comes around and, you know, stops harming himself.
And that's something Macy's justthe sweetest girl.
And sometimes I have a harder time seeing that.
And so Macy's someone who will always remind us of that.
So it's, it's funny that you brought that up because that
(20:09):
again is something that she'll check in and remind me.
And it's, and it's, it's good tohave friends that are understand
this issue, but also understand the Christian faith and the
Christian values. So.
That's something I might know appreciative of to, to just have
been able to surround myself with so many like minded women,
right. Riley's become a great friend of
mine as well. And we share a lot of values
(20:31):
outside of of swimming. And so that's been sort of the
the silver lining of of all of this.
Yeah, I mean, the way I see it, you know, if, if, if he wants to
to, if he feels like he needs todo that or live that that
lifestyle, which is, you know, fine.
But when you start affecting other people, that's when you
kind of have to look at it in a different light because you're
(20:52):
affecting others and it's not fair.
Definitely. And I and I think it's it's one
of the it's one of those things,though, that it's it's just
really sad for everyone involved.
There's no, there's really no winners here.
Yeah, Leah Thomas might have wonan NCAA championship, but at
what cost to his teammates, to the girls he was competing
(21:14):
against, to himself, for even the attention of what happened.
And I'm sure some of the the hate that gets thrown around and
I don't agree with him competing, but I would never,
you know, say anything about himas an individual because that's
not my place. But there are many people who
don't have those beliefs and values and do do those things.
(21:36):
I mean, I also see a fair share myself.
And so again, for everyone involved, it's it's there's no
winners. No, there's not.
And when he has a false feeling of winning that championship, I
mean, at what cost? I mean, that's what you really
have to look at. And the the one of the best
things about sports is you feel like, OK, it was an it was an
(21:57):
honest, fair competition and andthe best person one out.
But in this case, the deck is stacked against you all from the
very beginning, it seems like. And I think that's one thing I,
I, the, from what I've seen people don't, especially the
media doesn't get, is it's not about crucify an individual for
(22:18):
what they believe or how they want to live.
It's about when that causes harmto other people.
And the whole idea of women's sports and competing, it's hard
enough for women to be seen as equals and in the especially in
the sporting world. And to have that come up, like
you said, it's just there's no winners and it's just, it's
hurtful. Yeah, and that's that's what I
(22:41):
really wish people would see that.
Again, this is not coming from aplace of hate.
I mean, I think that that's oftentimes what we're told that
we're hateful, that we're bigoted, that, you know, like
they call us all these names, but I I don't I don't agree with
that. It really gonna this is about
defending women. This is about being pro women.
And that is like all that is allwe've ever strived out to do and
(23:05):
that's all we've ever wanted from from working on this issue,
from what we do at the Riley Gates Center, from all of that.
So again, if anyone is still in a position of critiquing us,
again, this, this really is justpro women.
Absolutely. Yeah.
That's, that's the overall message that we need to remember
and everybody needs to remember that and what we're talking
(23:26):
about. So going forward, you you
started working with with Riley as an ambassador to the
Leadership Institute. How did that come about?
Did you reach out to her or did she get in touch with you?
When I first when Riley first did an interview about this
issue. So she didn't meet Leah Thomas
(23:47):
at at She didn't meet Leah Thomas until the NCAA
championship, which happened in March.
Again, my team had been we had known about it for years.
He had been competing on behalf of our team for months.
At this point. The season competitions start in
October. So it was we were dealing with
it for many months and no one was really talking about it.
No one was giving it any attention.
(24:08):
And so I reached out to Riley assoon as she did an interview and
I just said, like, thank you so much for for saying something.
You know, I told her about how my team had told us we were
bigoted and hateful and it triedto silence us and all of this.
So she immediately responded andthe two of us became friends,
just sort of connecting online. And then obviously she started
(24:30):
to do a lot more interviews and all of that.
And so eventually when she created the Riley Gain Center,
the Leadership Institute, I had already been working on this
issue. I'd already been speaking and
doing interviews and all that. So it was just a, a very obvious
thing. She was like, absolutely come on
board and let's do this all together.
Wow, that's so cool. And what's the overall mission
(24:52):
of the Institute Of what do you how do you hope to make a
difference in women's sports overall?
Yeah, I touched on this briefly before.
It's really just about being thesupport network for the women
who are going through this and also raising awareness on the
issues that the mainstream mediadoesn't want to cover.
I think those are the the two big things is and something
we've gotten to do is this project boycott, right?
(25:13):
So we've got in these girls in in volleyball, there's college
level. There's also a high school that
was faced at the same thing and we sent it back.
I did not go on this, but we sent ambassadors down there to
support the girls and also got the nice T-shirts boycott and
really just validate what they're doing.
And that was really helpful again, to, to see these girls
(25:33):
boycott and say, no, I, I'm not partaking in this.
I don't want unfair competition.I don't want men into my sports.
And again, being that support system, when I went through
this, I was alone. I was on my team.
I didn't feel like anyone supported me.
I didn't know where I could go. And what we're really trying to
do with the center is say this is the resource.
So if you're going through this,people will automatically know,
oh, I know about the Riley Gain center.
(25:54):
Why don't I try to reach out to them and then we'll be there to
support them. And again, that's really the
biggest thing that I felt was missing when I went through this
myself. So that's what we're going to
do. Well, and it seems like things
are changing slowly but surely. Have you seen any common sense
coming back into the powers thatbe?
(26:15):
What are you? What kind of feedback are you
getting? But from, from people out there.
Yeah, we've been seeing progress.
I mean, the NCAA hasn't done what they needed to do, but the
NAIA, which is an alternative tothe NCAA.
So there's a few colleges that are in the NAIA.
They've already said we're not doing this.
Men are not going to compete in women's sports.
But interestingly, the the UN actually released the report
(26:38):
that over 1000 female athletes have lost metal opportunities by
male athletes competing in theirsports.
And that was that was really honestly a win for us because
the UN admitting that that was really where we are on this
issue. Because again, the UN is, is not
necessarily very on the on the right wing side that and right
(26:58):
wing has been more into this issue and been more supportive
to us on this issue. And that was a honestly very
surprising that they even admitted that.
So again, it's a, it's showed usthat this does reach across
party lines. It showed us that this isn't
again, a common sense issue. And it's good to see the other
groups are starting to acknowledge that this is a
(27:20):
problem. But again, there was a lot of
articles written after the election that this issue was was
heavily covered in the election and heavily covered in a lot of
the ads for this past election. So again, that that wasn't the
case four years ago. So it really shows this really
is a cultural issue and people are really into it.
Yeah, that surprises me about the UN actually too, because
(27:41):
yeah, you wouldn't expect them to say that.
We were shocked. You can go look it up.
I I do highly actually recommendyou you look into it.
It was, it was really. We were very impressed.
So it's a so are you saying it'sit is it is a global issue?
I mean, other countries are facing this as well.
Absolutely. I mean, we saw this in this past
Olympics. It was, it was a little bit of a
(28:02):
different situation because it was regarding intersex athletes,
but male athletes nonetheless. And this is happening in other
countries. I mean, we have allies over in
England. They're dealing with that.
There's this great woman here. She's a former marathon Olympian
named Mara and she was covering local running races and she's,
she lives in England, but local running races when male athletes
(28:25):
would compete should be coveringit.
This is happening in international competitions.
We have also some friends in Australia also trying to fight
the same things. I mean, right, the we could act
best with probably the fellow English speaking language
languages, but this is, this is happening in in other countries
as well. And it's, it's really
heartbreaking to see. And we get, you know, reached
(28:48):
out to all these, these athletesacross the country and, and
Olympians and college athletes and kids, little kids in
elementary, middle school, high school, of course, you name it,
it's, it's really widespread. Wow, wow.
And when you get a big a movement like that, it's it only
helps the cause because when yourealize that this is not just
one school, one state, this is going on everywhere.
(29:11):
I just kind of helps make peopleunderstand, OK, this is a a real
issue here and gets them, I think on the right page of what
we're talking about. Like you said, and I wanted to
make clear too in the show, it'snot about a feeling of hate
towards anyone else or anyone else's lifestyle.
It's about defending women. And that's bait.
(29:32):
And that's the the bottom line of this whole thing.
Absolutely. And that's really why we do it
and that's really why it's worthdoing and it's worthwhile taking
the time to talk about this. It's, it's really just about,
about, you know, defending womenand, and protecting our, our
next generation of female athletes too, 'cause I think
it's even more heartbreaking when I see this happening to
(29:52):
middle school aged girls and, and elementary school aged
girls, even high school aged girls 'cause when I went through
it, I was well over the age of 18.
And I, and I'm seeing the, again, the really young girls
that are forced to deal with this and have to make the
decision to stand up. That, to me, really, really
breaks my heart. That's that's a great point.
The future, future athletes, if if anyone is watching or a
(30:16):
parent, maybe what what would beyour hope and message to the
young athletes out there of today?
What what can they do to help kind of not make sure this
doesn't come back or get any worse?
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is if you see it, say something
and then that's that sounds so silly, but there's still so many
people who are quiet about this.I mean, I even have teammates
(30:37):
from my own team that experienceexactly what I did, and they're
not willing to talk about it publicly still to this day.
And that to me, and honestly, I love them and I understand we're
coming from, but you're being, you're part of the problem if
you see it and you're not willing to stand up for.
And that's something that reallywhen I was, I was quiet for a
(30:58):
little bit before I ever spoke about this publicly.
But as something I realized, I said, if I stay quiet, I'm
accepting this. I'm contributing to the problem
by saying it's OK, Yeah, you cando that.
So that's my biggest advice is like if you see something, say
something and and talk about it.And the other thing with that is
if you lose your job or your friends or whatever it might be,
(31:21):
those are never your friends to begin with.
And that job is not a place you want to work.
And that's a that's a really challenging reality for a lot of
people. But that was something I quickly
realized. I said OK well if my friends
don't want to talk to me over metalking about this issue then
they probably weren't weren't myfriend to begin with.
That's right, that's right. And it's almost like I'd say
it's a good thing, but you kind of realize who your friends are
(31:42):
and you kind of weed out people who you can't trust or you feel
like, or they don't have my backanyway.
So it kind of helps you out in the long run, but.
Yes, absolutely. That's exactly what I what I
tell. And it's harder for for younger
people and and everyone just to be liked.
And so that's the thing I will always remind someone is I'm
actually really grateful that people like that aren't part of
(32:04):
my life anymore because they were never a true friend to
begin with. And if it wasn't this issue, it
would have been something else. Oh yeah, and especially with,
with young girls in, in middle school, high school, and then on
into college, you always want tofit in.
You want to have friends in a friend group.
And it's, it's, it's not easy todo the right thing for sure, and
to stand up for what you believein, but it's so important.
(32:26):
Absolutely. And that's, that's really what
I've learned and on this journey, yeah, I've made a lot
of friends and I'm really grateful to, to be surrounded by
so many wonderful women that have the same values as myself.
And so that's something that I never would have experienced had
I not gone through this. So it's not all negative.
And we've all again, really cometogether and, and sort of been
(32:47):
that support network that we didn't have what we were going
through this. And then we also had the
opportunity to actually go and build that out.
And so that's been rewarding again, to see the impact that
we're making and, and to see young girls that were helping.
That's amazing. What do you have planned for for
for 25 or you do you have any events coming up that that you'd
(33:07):
like to share? So far, we're still working on
everything, but we are going to be again, continuing to support
these e-mail athletes. So if there's something going on
in this issue, you will definitely see us there.
And again, we're just continuingto, yes, I think the biggest
thing is to be that support support system and support
network. But we're going to continue to
(33:28):
raise awareness on this issue. We're also going to continue to
help talk about legislation. I mean there's also a few
lawsuits in regards to this issues also.
We're going to be there to support those.
Some people, Riley may be testifying in some some issues
on that level, so we're going tobe looking out for that and just
(33:50):
supporting the team and and making, you know, putting it
into this issue. That's awesome.
That's great. Great to hear you're doing,
you're doing amazing work and you're, you're very brave.
And I just want to thank you forfor coming on because it's just,
it's an important conversation and I feel like we all have to,
to face it and talk about it. It's just it's that important.
(34:11):
Where can people connect with you online if they want to reach
out or find out more about the Riley Gain Center?
Yeah, rileygaincenter.org is thewebsite.
So if you guys need any, if you,if you're going through this
yourself and need help, go there.
If you just want to see where Riley's going to be, what some
of us are up to check it out andyou have all the information
(34:32):
that you need on there. But I really appreciate you
taking the time just to, to helpus raise awareness to this issue
and just take the interest. I mean, again, it's a, it's,
it's been a really interesting, you know, several years working
on this and I appreciate all theallies that we've made.
And then you taking, again, taking the time to, to really
(34:53):
explore this and talk about it. I again, I'm so appreciative of
you for that. Oh, what's it's our pleasure.
And, and please come back because as things develop and
love to have you back and talk about about this because, yeah,
it's something that it's something we need to talk about
and make sure that things like this don't happen because it's
(35:15):
it's all about the right, the right thing.
I mean, it's just like you said,and we've said in this podcast,
it's common sense and it's just,there's, there's a reason why we
have women compete against otherwomen and men against men.
And it's just to make sports fair and enjoyable.
I mean, because it can't be enjoyable.
I'm sure competing and knowing that he is, you know, pulling
(35:38):
through the water and, and, and blowing people out of the water.
So that's just, yeah, it's, it'ssad, but I think it's it's
getting better and I think it will definitely change.
So. Definitely.
And it's, it's because of peoplelike you and, and like all of us
that have have really just started to just say, hey, this
is not OK and we're going to talk about it and we're not
(35:59):
going to go away until there's solutions.
So I, I again, really thank you so much for that.
Oh, oh, yeah, Paula, thank you. Thank you so much.
And like I said, please come back.
Absolutely love to. Happiness Sold Separately is
created and hosted by Jason Hensley and is produced by
Makash Films. Narration by Lauren Gobis.
(36:21):
If you or someone you know is incrisis and needs immediate help,
call the National Mental Health Hotline at 866-903-3787.
We would be honored if you wouldrate, share and subscribe from
the entire Happiness Sold Separately team.
(36:41):
Thank you for listening.
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